The Hero | EP 7 | The Confidante

New evidence reveals just how far Paul was willing to go. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

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• 0:05Andrea Gunning?

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• 0:47Andrea Gunning?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard, but then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.

• 1:21Speaker 02

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• 1:56Speaker 01

  I'm glad I asked for help.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Ask your loved one's doctor about Rexulti.

• 2:03Andrea Gunning?

  On the evening of February 21st, 2024, Matt Rolsey invited Paul Augustine over for drinks. They didn't know each other well, but Matt had heard about Paul's arrest, and he was curious to hear from Paul himself. He had no idea that night. Paul would tell him everything.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  If it was legal to shove glass into his boyfriend's eyes or something, or paralyze him from the waist down, I would do it.

• 2:32Andrea Gunning?

  Paul confessed. The spoof calls, the doctor texts, the tow trucks and locksmiths. He was behind all of it. Paul even explained why he'd done it.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Because I just wanted Carl to myself.

• 2:47Andrea Gunning?

  Little did Paul know, Matt's security cameras recorded the entire evening. Matt had the whole four-and-a-half-hour confession on video. Watching the tape back the next morning, he was terrified.

• 3:01Speaker 04

  He told me he was ruthless several times in that video. If he realized we were recording him, he could just hire somebody to throw something over the fence or do something to our dogs. If he's gonna go for anybody, it's gonna be us.

• 3:15Andrea Gunning?

  And yet, Matt knew what he had to do. The day after Matt's conversation with Paul, a mutual friend connected him with Carl. It was the first time Carl and Matt ever talked.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  I told Carl Paul came over and confessed everything, and it's all recorded.

• 3:35Andrea Gunning?

  Matt sent him the full recording, and Carl spent the whole day watching it over and over again.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  I could not believe that this was the person I was interacting with just about every day. This is not the person I was friends with. What I was going through was complete hell.

• 3:55Speaker 05

  And he was joking about it. He was laughing about it.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  If I could have kept doing shit, I would have put Visine in his fucking stir fry.

• 4:04Speaker 05

  Wait, what does that do?

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Kills you.

• 4:08Speaker 05

  Is this the real Paul with his mask off, and I'm finally seeing him for the first time?

• 4:13Andrea Gunning?

  The video melted away any lingering doubts Carl had. Paul was his stalker, and Carl knew this video could be valuable evidence in the case against Paul. Before he even watched the whole thing, he asked Matt.

• 4:28Speaker 05

  We have this active investigation going on. If I get you in touch with a detective, could you please hand it over? And he said, yeah, by all means.

• 4:38Andrea Gunning?

  The video was about to change everything, and it just so happened the detectives were closing in on some new evidence of their own, proof of just how far Paul was willing to go.

• 4:50Speaker 06

  He was asking me if I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would be charged?

• 5:08Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season Six. Episode Seven, The Hero.

• 5:17Andrea Gunning?

  At this point, Paul was facing four criminal charges. But Carl and Matt wondered, with everything he'd confessed to on tape, were more charges coming? After Matt sent the cops the confession, he and Carl heard nothing. Weeks went by. They constantly checked local arrest records and court dockets, hoping for an update. And then, in mid-March, an update came.

• 5:42Speaker 04

  One day, I checked CCAP, where you can see people's arrests and charges. I was like, Carl, holy shit, have you been on CCAP today? And I sent him the screenshot, and he was like, holy shit, because we didn't know that his charges went from four to 20.

• 5:57Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was now charged with a total of 13 felonies and seven misdemeanors for crimes like defamation, identity theft, false reporting of an emergency, and threatening to communicate derogatory information. All told, he now faced up to 63 years and three months in prison, in no small part because of the confession tape.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  As if the forensic downloads didn't already make the case against him previously, we have his recorded confession.

• 6:28Andrea Gunning?

  Seeing all these additional charges, Carl felt something he hadn't felt in a long time: hope.

• 6:35Speaker 05

  I'm just like, yes, he just dug his own hole. So thank you, Paul.

• 6:43Andrea Gunning?

  But the investigation wasn't over. Detective George was still hunting down additional evidence. She'd seen firsthand how calculated Paul could be.

• 6:54Speaker 07

  Paul had placed probable cause. He had set up Adam Mahia to take the fall for him. It was devastating to me to realize that I had negatively impacted this man's life based on the evidence that Paul Augustine had carefully laid out.

• 7:12Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George and her team wanted to ensure a conviction, so they had to keep digging. When they first arrested Paul, law enforcement had the evidence from the spoofing apps. Now, they also had the confession video. The next step was going through every bit of data on Paul's cell phone.

• 7:32Speaker 04

  Once you get into someone's phone, it's the goldmine.

• 7:35Andrea Gunning?

  That's Detective Nick Morrow.

• 7:37Speaker 04

  Especially when all of his stuff is spoofing and it's on the phone. You're confirming everything, and like, yes, this matches with this, this matches with that. It's 100% him, they can't say it's not. You want to make sure everything is as rock solid as possible, so they don't have a defense.

• 7:52Andrea Gunning?

  There were hundreds of gigabytes of data, and Detective George sifted through all of it.

• 7:58Speaker 07

  Going through his download, what really stood out to me was how much time and effort he put into stalking Carl Bryan, Andrew Condon, and setting up Adam Mahia. The phone was used for hours and hours every single day on probably every spoofing app you can think of. I mean, I don't know how he had time to sleep or even work his job.

• 8:22Andrea Gunning?

  But as she clicked through text after text, she realized something even more disturbing. You already heard in the last episode that Paul recruited people to help him.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  I had a team of sick bitches, so I paid people to do numerous things.

• 8:43Andrea Gunning?

  With the phone records, detectives were able to identify just how many people Paul tried to recruit. At a minimum, there were 11. According to Detective George, many of them had something in common.

• 8:58Speaker 07

  Paul Augustine's whole thing is manipulating vulnerable people.

• 9:01Andrea Gunning?

  Paul enlisted people with mental disabilities, people who are addicted to drugs or in desperate need of money.

• 9:09Speaker 07

  They were all individuals that he was able to prey on, offering them money or different favors in exchange for their help.

• 9:15Andrea Gunning?

  Let me give you an example. Paul had a coworker at Sam's Club. In the confession video, Paul makes fun of him. In a quick warning, he uses offensive and derogatory language.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  My coworker, he was really autistic, so I exploited that. And he was such a burger about it, like Asperger, he was a burger.

• 9:39Andrea Gunning?

  According to the police report, Paul hung out with this coworker multiple times a week just so he could borrow his phone and use it to harass Carl. I walked through the police report with Carl. Hearing these details, he was disgusted.

• 9:55Speaker 05

  It is really sick to think about everything he has ever done.

• 10:02Speaker 06

  There was always some calculation and some manipulation behind it.

• 10:08Andrea Gunning?

  In the fall of 2023, at the height of the harassment, Paul used this coworker's phone to make eight calls and send 31 texts, including that call to Drew's work, the one where Paul tried to get Drew fired with fake child abuse allegations. Paul paid the coworker for his help. The detectives wrote, "He no longer wanted to be involved, but Augustine tried to convince him and tried to bribe him by giving him $20 bills here and there, and also made one or more Venmo payments to him. It seems like there was a level of financial desperation there."

• 10:44Speaker 06

  Right, yeah, very much transactional, for sure.

• 10:48Andrea Gunning?

  I don't know, Paul, but it seems like he feels comfortable wielding that type of power over people. It also seemed like the guy just wanted a friend.

• 10:59Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:00Andrea Gunning?

  And connection.

• 11:01Speaker 06

  Right.

• 11:03Andrea Gunning?

  What seems to be his last message to Paul reads, quote, "I'm going to make this very clear. I don't want to be involved with the spoofing anymore. I'm angry about all of this, how your friendship only felt like it revolved around you using my phone or using me to make calls."

• 11:23Andrea Gunning?

  This really resonated with Carl. He knew what it was like to need a friend and to have Paul Augustine show up.

• 11:31Speaker 06

  Casting way back to 2013, when I was this newly out, overweight, insecure queer person, Paul was willing to offer that connection when I was very desperate for it myself. It's obviously not beneath him to prey upon those vulnerabilities like that.

• 11:49Andrea Gunning?

  He has an MO.

• 11:51Speaker 06

  Yeah, true.

• 11:53Andrea Gunning?

  Paul used people to help make his crimes happen.

• 11:58Andrea Gunning?

  Most of them are vulnerable, but not all of them. I want to talk a little bit about the messages that Paul had with the cop. About a month before he was arrested, Paul messaged back and forth with a Milwaukee police officer. It's unclear how the two of them met, but it seems like Paul was trying to use sex to convince this officer to help him. Their messages were included in the police report. We've had voice actors read some of them.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Do you have a way to completely read someone's texts with just a phone number or something? I'll be honest, the minute I found out you were a cop, I wanted you to be a dirty, corrupt cop and break the law to help me get revenge on a guy.

• 12:43Speaker 06

  LOL, what guy?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Someone I had serious feelings for that picked somebody else over me.

• 12:50Speaker 06

  Oh, damn.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  But you should help me legally fuck someone over.

• 12:55Andrea Gunning?

  Paul then described sexual favors he would repay the cop with.

• 13:00Speaker 06

  Very hot. Who screwed you over?

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Not the point. Just be corrupt with me as a cop. It's my dream to use the law against someone before I die. Would you bend the rules for me?

• 13:13Speaker 06

  What rules?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  The law, LOL, like false accusations type of shit. Would you, though?

• 13:20Speaker 06

  LOL. I actually am in the unit that investigates corruption, so...

• 13:28Andrea Gunning?

  After that, the conversation appeared to fizzle out, and there's no indication that the cop agreed to do any of Paul's dirty work. But there's something else. Before this exchange, a news article had revealed this same officer had been a member of the Oath Keepers about 15 years earlier. The Oath Keepers are a far-right, anti-government militia. They participated in the January 6th attack on Capitol Hill. They offered protection to a Kentucky court clerk when she refused to issue a marriage license to a same-sex couple. When Carl found out about the Oath Keepers connection, he was taken aback.

• 14:08Speaker 06

  This is a far-right group who obviously have no love for the LGBT community. For a gay man to weaponize homophobia in a way that would actually benefit his own ends, I mean, frankly, is bone chilling.

• 14:25Andrea Gunning?

  He was willing to go to any lengths.

• 14:28Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 14:29Andrea Gunning?

  And then, there was the witch. According to the police report, Paul was connected with someone who claimed to be a witch. On November 16th, 2023, Paul Venmoed him $100 with a memo note, "Witchcraft." A month later, he sent $175 payment with the label, "Revenge." This alone doesn't tell us much, but Paul's texts to the witch paint a darker picture.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  God damn it. Why did I have you do a love spell when it shouldn't just be a death spell? To fucking kill him or make him so sad the boyfriend would kill himself? Hehehe. When I see them touch, I want to skin them alive. I just want Andrew arrested or killed. I'd acid attack his face. The whole situation just makes me so obsessively angry to a point where I want to burn people alive in a boiling hot tub or acid attack them.

• 15:28Speaker 06

  When I found that out, I was shocked. I was like, are you kidding me? Like, he talks quite frequently about Drew and myself being skinned alive, putting spells on us, like death spells. Nothing is beneath him if it means getting what he wants.

• 15:48Andrea Gunning?

  Paul's texts were graphic, violent even. But in the eyes of the law, he was a nonviolent offender. That's why he was released on such a low bail, even after the increased charges. He wasn't seen as a real threat to society. But that was about to change.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  He was asking, like, if I, if I won't be done on that, if I could, like, kill people.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard, but then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.

• 16:53Speaker 02

  Seeing symptoms like these in a loved one? It could be time to ask their doctor about Rexulti, Rexiprazole 2mg, the first FDA-approved treatment for this condition. Rexulti is proven to reduce agitation symptoms. Rexulti should not be used as an as-needed treatment. Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke. Report fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, which can be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness on standing, falls, seizures, trouble swallowing, or sleepiness may occur. Learn more about these and other side effects at rexulti.com. Tap ad for PI.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I'm glad I asked for help.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Ask your loved one's doctor about Rexulti.

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• 18:08Andrea Gunning?

  Paul had been caught, and now, in the spring of 2024, a trial was looming. Kenosha County prosecutors were hard at work prepping the case. Assistant District Attorney Tom Binger led the charge.

• 18:22Speaker 05

  I have never seen anything like this before, and I wanted to seek a punishment that would send a message to anyone else out there that was tempted to use these types of methods, that if you use them in an abusive manner like this, there will be very serious consequences.

• 18:38Andrea Gunning?

  Most of Paul's harassment took place remotely, on his phone. But Tom didn't see this as some internet prank. This was a real crime that demanded real punishment.

• 18:51Speaker 05

  I think our modern definition of violence is changing. With modern Technology, there are ways that people can get at us that are far different than what it used to be. You used to have to break in someone's home and hold a knife to their throat, but nowadays you can virtually do that.

• 19:07Andrea Gunning?

  That's exactly what Paul had done. Carl, Adam, Drew, he held them all hostage with countless spoof messages, fake calls to dispatch, extortion attempts, even death threats.

• 19:21Speaker 05

  Maybe under the laws, as they're currently defined, these aren't violent offenses, but I think that they committed violence against numerous people and caused them to fear for their safety, and that is its own form of violence.

• 19:36Speaker 05

  You have someone who had intimate knowledge of someone's life and used it against them, and had intimate knowledge of technological advancements that I frankly wasn't aware of before this case.

• 19:49Andrea Gunning?

  Still, Tom knew it would be a fight to secure a prison sentence.

• 19:54Speaker 05

  We had someone who had no prior criminal record, and that's a heavy thing in his favor.

• 19:59Andrea Gunning?

  On top of that, Paul had hired a lawyer, someone who was known in the area for handling high-profile cases. Paul wanted to get out of serving time, and this lawyer was his best chance. Paul's attorney talked to the prosecutor, and he insisted, these were minor crimes. No one got hurt, and Paul wasn't the kind of guy who belonged in prison.

• 20:23Speaker 05

  I remember him telling me multiple times that his client was, and I forget the exact numbers, five foot seven, 140 pounds, soaking wet, something along those lines. It was this tiny little guy was just suffering in the jail, and he wasn't going to live a day in prison. And so it was so tragic that, you know, we were going to talk about sending this person to prison. And I basically just shrugged my shoulders and said, well, too bad. I don't care. You don't get to get out of prison by being a certain height or weight. Your acts are what get you there. And he made decisions here that deserve a lengthy prison time.

• 20:58Andrea Gunning?

  Both sides spent months prepping their cases. All the while, Paul was out in the world. You see, even after the confession video came to light and Paul got all these new charges, he was allowed to remain out on bond, living near Milwaukee. He tried to return to his normal life, hitting the gay bars, meeting up with friends at local restaurants. But anyone who knew about the case was steering clear of him. Here is a message Paul sent to one of his former friends.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  I suppose you're one of the people who wishes I was dead. People don't want to take the time to talk or understand. They want to see me die. That's cute. I get it. Just sucks. I'm sure that'll be a fun party, celebrating my death. I'll leave you alone because I'm not some scary creeper. Whenever you decide to make the right choice and chat with me, I'll be the best friend you'd ever imagine. Until then, I'm not a stalker, so take care.

• 21:59Andrea Gunning?

  The friend who received this message didn't respond. Paul was now a social outcast, and he didn't like that one bit. So he turned to social media.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  When I get in a funk about my current situation, I remind myself that I'm not paralyzed, broke, or without a family that loves me, and it gets me through the day. Even when people want to see you fail, and in some cases, actually want to see you die, there's hope. If I'm the new crazy gay in southeast Wisconsin, this must be a pretty goddamn safe space. That's so funny. All 120 pounds of me are so horrifying. You take your meat with a side of hate, I see. Par for the course.

• 22:47Andrea Gunning?

  He began posting on Facebook multiple times a day. Many of his posts were long paragraphs of text, where he minimized his crimes, or even tried to make excuses for what he'd done. It seems like he goes on this social media campaign, trying to do, like, almost like a public relations stunt for himself. He doesn't like being public enemy number one, and he's appealing to people online for sympathy.

• 23:12Speaker 06

  Right. It was a desperate attempt to establish a narrative and to create this new public persona that he's now being victimized because of a tragic situation.

• 23:29Andrea Gunning?

  In his posts, Paul gives a lot of different explanations for why he did what he did, like this one from June 21, 2024.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Maybe a sick part of me also wanted to show I could be the hero, even though I went about it by being a villain to create an excuse to save the day or battle something together.

• 23:50Andrea Gunning?

  So I guess he was trying to be your hero. He's not even denying it.

• 23:55Speaker 06

  To just be so blatant about that on a Facebook post. Number one is just so insanely implicating, but number two is just like, how do you have the gall?

• 24:10Andrea Gunning?

  But there's one explanation Paul gave for his behavior more than any other: autism.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Having Asperger's, I struggle to regulate my emotions more than anyone I know. I just wish that my sensitivity wasn't such a downfall where it literally drives me insane and compels me to do things I'm not proud of in this life. I'm a normal person who just wants love and compassion from people, et cetera. It's called being on the spectrum and not having the ability to self-regulate when my feelings are stomped on.

• 24:42Andrea Gunning?

  On June 18, 2024, Paul posted about autism four times.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Be the autistic one in this situation? Oh, man, your word has less than 1% credibility, even when you're speaking truth. I swear this community really does have an autistic hate problem. They would never even think to ask us why we say the shit we say or do the things we do. No, they would rather lock us up or see us die. Not a zoo animal, sorry. As much as I'm treated like one, autistic people don't belong in cages as much as it pleasures people to think of me in one. There is discrimination against many other groups all the time, but autism should be the next one we examine because nobody really cares.

• 25:32Andrea Gunning?

  I asked Carl if he'd ever heard Paul talk about having autism.

• 25:37Speaker 06

  Never once in the 10 years that I knew him, did he ever say he had autism. So when I found this out for the first time, I'm like, how is it now, all of a sudden, this is a thing for you, that you now want to use this as a defense? Because you attacked my uncle for having a mental disability. You spoof texted my uncle for the same thing and said that he was an embarrassment, and now you're throwing that up as a defense.

• 26:06Andrea Gunning?

  The prosecutor, Tom Banger, read these posts too, and he saw straight through them.

• 26:11Speaker 05

  I find that argument to be deeply infuriating. My brother is on the autism spectrum. Everybody that I've ever met on the autism spectrum is a genuinely kind, law-abiding, do the right thing type of person, to almost default. To suggest that autism contributed to criminal behavior of any kind, I find to be deeply insulting.

• 26:40Andrea Gunning?

  The posts were offensive, but to Carl, there was greater cause for alarm. Because while Paul was out on bond, Carl was still getting calls from unknown numbers.

• 26:52Speaker 06

  I would answer the phone, and it would be silence on the other end, you know, a period of silence for at least 10 seconds, and then yet another hang up. It wasn't as frequent as it was during the stalking, but it was certainly enough to be concerning. As long as he's still out on the streets doing who knows what, I was never going to feel that sense of ease that I needed.

• 27:23Andrea Gunning?

  Continuing the harassment was a direct violation of Paul's bond conditions. With every call he placed, he risked going back to jail. In true Carl fashion, he documented these calls and turned another spreadsheet over to Detective George.

• 27:39Speaker 07

  So I wrote more search warrants, and it took quite a while to get that data back.

• 27:45Andrea Gunning?

  When the records finally came back, she could see there was one spoof calling account that was used to make dozens of calls to Carl. The account could be traced to a guy in Milwaukee named Joseph. This was someone she hadn't heard of before in her investigation. She needed to figure out the connection. How was this man linked to Paul? And what did he know?

• 28:08Andrea Gunning?

  In August 2024, she and her partner Detective Morrow went out to Milwaukee to meet Joseph. Here is Detective Morrow.

• 28:16Speaker 05

  When we got there, it was this apartment, not in one of the greatest areas of Milwaukee.

• 28:22Speaker 07

  Hi, it's a body cam of Milwaukee.

• 28:28Speaker 07

  Hi, this is Nick.

• 28:29Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 28:30Speaker 07

  Is it okay if we park over there?

• 28:31Andrea Gunning?

  There's body cam video of the scene. Joseph led the detectives down a series of winding halls, and then they reached a big echoey room.

• 28:39Speaker 07

  Do you want us to close the door? I don't know if you have any pets that are going to sneak out.

• 28:43Andrea Gunning?

  Supposedly, this was where Joseph lived. But I have to say, the room is like nothing I've ever seen in a home before.

• 28:52Speaker 05

  When we first met him, when we walked into his room, I remember thinking like, all right, I'm on my toes in here. This is kind of creepy and kind of weird.

• 29:02Andrea Gunning?

  The only things in there were a few wooden chairs, some camera equipment, and an old grandfather clock. The space was lit by both a chandelier and purple LED lights. The whole thing just felt off. But the detectives kept calm. They made small talk with the hopes of gaining Joseph's trust.

• 29:22Speaker 07

  What do you do? I'm a photographer. I'm starting my own business. That's awesome. I'm just, I have to, um...

• 29:30Speaker 03

  Backdrops and lights delivering.

• 29:32Speaker 07

  That's really cool. Um, okay. Yeah, so I appreciate you taking time out of your day to meet with us.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  I kind of figured they would come back and bite your ass.

• 29:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's, it's not gonna bite you in the ass, um, as long as you're honest and just kinda. So how do you know Paul?

• 29:49Speaker 03

  Uh, shit, where do I start?

• 29:52Andrea Gunning?

  Like some of the other people Paul recruited, Joseph met Paul at Sam's Club, where they both worked. Joseph was responsible for unloading new shipments, and Paul was a cashier. They only started hanging out in February 2024. Joseph had no idea that Paul had just gotten out of jail.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  He hit me up on Grindr and we were just talking, we were hanging out. He always got me food and stuff, we would always hang out.

• 30:19Andrea Gunning?

  Within minutes, Detective Morrow could tell. Joseph fit the profile of Paul's recruits to a T.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  He seemed to be struggling financially, and I also think that he was lacking friendship from people, so we thought that he could trust Paul as a friend.

• 30:35Speaker 03

  He would constantly ask me to use my phone. I'm like, I don't have any issue with that. And then I heard him like calling on my phone. I'm like, dude, what are you doing? Who are you calling? And he said, oh, I'm just calling to prank on somebody. I'm like, oh, okay.

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Do you remember what he did on your phone?

• 30:52Speaker 03

  All I know is he downloaded some spoofing apps. And that was about it.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Do you still have them on there?

• 30:59Speaker 03

  The phone that I had back then was an iPhone 14. I had to get rid of my iPhone 14 to make ends meet, so I'm back to my old phone.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Gotcha.

• 31:09Andrea Gunning?

  Eventually, Paul told Joseph about his situation.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Paul finally told me like, yeah, I have this court case thing. And the reason why I kept on using your phone was because I'm not allowed to use my phone and all that stuff. So I'm just playing it cool.

• 31:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  I don't want him getting upset with me or anything.

• 31:30Andrea Gunning?

  Up until this point, the story was nothing new. It sounded a lot like all the other stories detectives had heard of how Paul used vulnerable people to carry out his plan. But then, the interview took a turn.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  But yeah, he was asking me like weird questions too. Like he, he brought up your name.

• 31:53Andrea Gunning?

  Joseph was looking right at Detective George.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  He didn't tell me like who you were. I personally said like, hey, do you think you could find out where this person lives? Then he asked, kept on asking more weird questions like, you think you could like try to get some dirt on this person or try to blackmail this person?

• 32:11Andrea Gunning?

  And then, Paul asked Joseph a crucial question. The question that would change the trajectory of this entire case.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  He had to like make a small grenade and put it in the mailbox. I'm like, I do know how to make stuff like that, just you can find out on YouTube.

• 32:27Speaker 07

  Yep. Who did he want a grenade in their mailbox?

• 32:31Speaker 03

  He was mainly looking at you.

• 32:34Speaker 07

  Me?

• 32:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  She'd throw things, wander, and started hoarding. Mom's Alzheimer's was already so hard, but then we found out she had agitation that may happen with dementia due to Alzheimer's disease. And that was a different kind of difficult. So we asked her doctor for more help.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Seeing symptoms like these in a loved one? It could be time to ask their doctor about Rexulti, Rexiprazole 2mg, the first FDA-approved treatment for this condition. Rexulti is proven to reduce agitation symptoms. Rexulti should not be used as an as-needed treatment. Elderly people with dementia-related psychosis have increased risk of death or stroke. Report fever, stiff muscles, and confusion, which can be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High blood sugar can lead to coma or death. Weight gain, increased cholesterol, unusual urges, dizziness on standing, falls, seizures, trouble swallowing, or sleepiness may occur. Learn more about these and other side effects at rexulti.com. Tap ad for PI.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  I'm glad I asked for help.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Ask your loved one's doctor about Rexulti.

• 33:55Speaker 04

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• 34:30Andrea Gunning?

  In August of 2024, detectives interviewed a man named Joseph, who'd helped Paul make spoof calls. The interview started out like all the others in the investigation. But then, Joseph made a shocking confession. Paul had asked him if he knew how to make a grenade, and if he could put a grenade in someone's mailbox.

• 34:52Speaker 07

  Who did he want a grenade in their mailbox?

• 34:55Speaker 03

  He was mainly looking at you.

• 34:58Speaker 07

  Me?

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:59Andrea Gunning?

  Detective Morrow remembers that moment well.

• 35:03Speaker 05

  I know for me, immediately, without trying to set it off, I'm like staring at George like, what the hell did we just hear right now? I could only imagine what went through her mind. George somehow straight-faced, cool, just still talking with him the whole time.

• 35:17Speaker 07

  As a law enforcement officer, especially in situations like that, you cannot let the emotional side of your brain activate, because it will derail you from what you're doing. Like, when I go home, is there gonna be a bomb in my mailbox? So that moment in time, I was just thinking, well, I need to get more information. We just continued to question him and kind of get more details from him.

• 35:38Speaker 07

  Did he offer like money or anything?

• 35:40Speaker 03

  The way he offered it is doing favors. And he tried to word it carefully, but the gist is, yeah, if I were to put a bomb in your mailbox, he'd pay me. To help pay my phone bill. I didn't want to let, you know, he doesn't know where to like. He's showing the address and stuff.

• 36:02Speaker 07

  Do you remember what the house looked like?

• 36:04Speaker 03

  I think it was like a white house.

• 36:06Speaker 07

  Do you believe that he really like planned on putting a bomb in my mailbox if he could?

• 36:11Speaker 03

  I would say that he just had the guts to go through with it. And if he did find somebody that would go through with it, he's gonna be in a lot of trouble, because there's no way he could pay that guy off.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  You don't think that he would personally do it, but you think he has the ability to hire somebody to do his dirty work for him?

• 36:32Speaker 03

  He has the intent to look for people, hire people. Whether he has the resources to do it, probably not. If he has the resources, yes, without a doubt.

• 36:42Andrea Gunning?

  This seemed like a credible threat. If Paul had the money, there was no telling what could have happened. Hearing this, Detective George had one last question.

• 36:54Andrea Gunning?

  Before this meeting, she'd pulled some records, and she learned that a few months ago, Joseph had tried to buy a gun. He'd failed the background check, so he never got the weapon. Detective George didn't think much of it at the time. But now, given what she knew about the mail bomb, she saw things in a new light. So she asked Joseph.

• 37:18Speaker 07

  Do you know anything about a gun?

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Uh, no. Let me think of it.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, now I remember, yeah. He was asking like if I, if I wanted a gun and that, if I could like kill people. I just said like, I don't own a gun.

• 37:44Speaker 07

  Did you feel like he was asking you, like, do you have a gun, so that you could go kill someone for him?

• 37:51Speaker 03

  It was going for a second, because he was asking me like, if I wanted you to kill somebody, how much would you charge?

• 37:58Speaker 03

  I said probably $200,000, transferred that all into gold.

• 38:02Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  That's a lot of money. He just looked at me like, whatever.

• 38:08Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he did seem like he was asking me if I could do it. I'm like, yeah, I know.

• 38:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, did he like indicate who the target would be?

• 38:19Speaker 03

  No, it was just open.

• 38:21Speaker 07

  Kind of, yeah.

• 38:24Andrea Gunning?

  Detective Morrow decided to be more direct.

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Out of curiosity, and don't take this wrong, did you try and purchase a gun recently?

• 38:36Speaker 03

  Yes. Why did you, if you don't mind me asking? Uh, because I just want to see if I would pass. If I could actually get a gun. All right. And I was trying to get a Colt 1911.

• 38:50Andrea Gunning?

  This was a key detail. A Colt 1911 sells for a minimum of $800.

• 38:57Speaker 07

  The answer from a gentleman who said he had sold his cellphone to make ends meet was that, "Well, I just, I just wanted to see if I'd pass the background check."

• 39:06Andrea Gunning?

  Would a guy who just tried to pawn his phone really pay for an $800 gun? And if not, who would foot that bill?

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Yep. Well, good luck to you.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Take care. Enjoy this day.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Thank you very much.

• 39:22Andrea Gunning?

  After about an hour, detectives thanked Joseph for all he shared. Then they left the house and got back in the car.

• 39:30Speaker 07

  Once we sat in the car and we were safe, I think Nick and I looked at each other and we're like, holy fuck, what just happened?

• 39:37Speaker 05

  You could tell George was freaked out by it, right? I mean, who wouldn't in that situation?

• 39:42Speaker 07

  As a rookie officer, you're always told, don't follow the same routine. Take different routes at home. But, you know, over the years, after nearly a decade of doing this, we become comfortable. It was a jarring realization that the reality is sometimes you're not even safe at home.

• 39:59Andrea Gunning?

  Joseph had revealed crucial information. Paul had tried to recruit someone to commit acts of violence. He'd failed with Joseph. But what if he met someone who was up for the job?

• 40:13Speaker 07

  And so we said, well, he can't be free. He needs to get in custody now.

• 40:18Andrea Gunning?

  Paul had violated the conditions of his bond. Within hours, the detectives secured an arrest warrant, and they teamed up with the police department in the town where Paul lived.

• 40:29Speaker 07

  We went to his residence. He was not at home. We checked the area for his car, checked his work as well. And then Nick and I left to go back to our PD to write reports. And the local agency just stayed sitting on the house, waiting for him to come home.

• 40:44Andrea Gunning?

  And then around 12:45 a.m., Paul showed up.

• 40:52Andrea Gunning?

  The Wauwatoosa PD turned on their sirens.

• 40:55Speaker 04

  Driver, turn the vehicle off. Stay in the car. Put your hands up in the air.

• 41:01Andrea Gunning?

  The officers at the scene drew their guns.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Just stay right there. Do not reach for anything. Stop reaching in your fucking pocket.

• 41:10Andrea Gunning?

  Two cops approached Paul's car. He was sitting on the driver's side with his hands in the air.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  Do not make any sudden moves.

• 41:18Andrea Gunning?

  Put your hands, you get shot. Do you understand me? Yeah, what's wrong?

• 41:22Speaker 04

  Turn around.

• 41:23Andrea Gunning?

  Okay, no.

• 41:23Speaker 04

  Stand up.

• 41:24Andrea Gunning?

  Okay, okay. Okay, no.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  Turn around. Do not put your hands.

• 41:30Andrea Gunning?

  Okay, don't hurt me.

• 41:34Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was finally in handcuffs. You are under arrest or no? For what? You're only warrant for arrest. Okay, what did I do?

• 41:48Andrea Gunning?

  On the next episode of Betrayal.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  All right, the court calls State of Wisconsin versus Paul Augustine.

• 41:56Andrea Gunning?

  Paul finally goes before a judge.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  I promise you from the bottom of my heart, your honor, that I understand the full extent of what I caused and the dark cloud that I had over people's lives.

• 42:11Andrea Gunning?

  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

• 42:49Andrea Gunning?

  Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcory. Our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins, with additional voice acting by Trey Morgan. Mixing and mastering by Matt Delvecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities.

• 43:35Andrea Gunning?

  Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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• 47:00Andrea Gunning?

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