Relentless | EP 6 | The Confidante

A wine night turns into a shocking confession. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:03Andrea Gunning?

  Word travels fast within the Wisconsin gay community. Most people are connected by a few degrees of separation. Paul's arrest was big news.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  It was obviously very juicy gossip and people were talking about it because first of all, it's a gay community. We're going to talk about stuff like that. And it is just such a crazy, bonkers story.

• 1:27Andrea Gunning?

  That's Matt Rolsey. He and Paul were mutuals. They would see each other at bars and like each other's Facebook posts, but they weren't particularly close. So when someone texted Matt a picture of Paul's mugshot, he was a little curious.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  I probably reached out to him shortly after I found out. I did want to learn more about it.

• 1:52Andrea Gunning?

  Matt messaged Paul, asking what was going on. He didn't know what to expect or if Paul could even reply. As far as he knew, Paul might still be in jail. To Matt's surprise, Paul responded.

• 2:09Andrea Gunning?

  You see, after Paul's arrest, he got out of jail on $5,000 bond. Now, a month later, Paul was out in the world awaiting trial. But he wasn't exactly Mr. Popular. So when Matt invited Paul over to his house, Paul gladly accepted.

• 2:27Speaker 03

  I was super shocked when he actually came over and just immediately started telling me everything.

• 2:35Andrea Gunning?

  Matt didn't know it at the time, but what Paul was about to tell him would change the course of this entire case.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  It just doesn't, you didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make a podcast.

• 3:11Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season Six. Episode Six, Relentless.

• 3:22Andrea Gunning?

  Matt lives on a quiet street in Milwaukee with his husband and their dogs. Instead of asking Paul out for drinks.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  I just asked him to come over.

• 3:32Andrea Gunning?

  By this point, Paul was pretty much blacklisted. Everyone knew what he'd done and no one was giving him the time of day, except for Matt. So it made sense that Paul wanted to talk. The two of them set a date for a random Wednesday in February.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Hello, how are you doing?

• 3:51Speaker 03

  How are you?

• 3:52Speaker 04

  Good.

• 3:53Andrea Gunning?

  Paul made himself at home. He kicked off his shoes and took off his bomber jacket.

• 3:57Speaker 04

  Good to see you.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Good to see you.

• 4:00Andrea Gunning?

  Matt's two French Bulldogs ran up and started playing with Paul.

• 4:04Speaker 04

  Hello.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Hello. Would you like some wine?

• 4:08Speaker 03

  Sure. What kind of?

• 4:10Speaker 04

  Just peanut creation?

• 4:12Andrea Gunning?

  They opened the bottle Paul brought. Matt already had chips and salsa out on the kitchen island. It was all very casual. Paul and Matt just stood around in the kitchen. Matt's husband, Dave, was there too, to say hello. They were all sipping drinks, petting the dogs, and then Paul cut to the chase.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  You just, one thing, and I would, I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  I don't even know where my phone is.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  Good.

• 4:44Speaker 03

  And I usually have my Apple Watch on, but I don't know where that is.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  Positive?

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Uh, it's upstairs. I do know where it is. It is upstairs and my phone is in my office.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 4:55Andrea Gunning?

  This was true. Matt didn't have any of his devices on him, but what he did have were home security cameras in every room.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  Our security cameras, they're very visible, but I had no reason to think that he would tell me anything at all.

• 5:13Andrea Gunning?

  He'd half expected Paul to not want to talk about his case, but within minutes of getting to Matt's house, Paul started talking.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Long story short, I, fine, yeah, I made some mistakes. I did some things I shouldn't have done that were mean and manipulative, whatever you want to call it. And it's not that I'm like, I'm not proud of it. It's just like, you know, I kind of freaked out a little. And, you know, I wasn't going to say that over Messenger because there's a narrative that I have to abide by over anything that's typed, okay? Because I'm not pleading guilty, that's for fucking sure.

• 5:59Andrea Gunning?

  Matt could not believe what he was hearing.

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Once he started spilling the beans, I was shocked.

• 6:06Andrea Gunning?

  He could feel the presence of the camera in the corner of the room. Clearly, Paul didn't notice it.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  I didn't want him to realize what I was thinking, which was like, oh my God, this is major. He doesn't realize what he's doing right now.

• 6:24Andrea Gunning?

  Matt's husband excused himself and Matt and Paul decided to settle in. They took their snacks and wine into the living room and they sat down on the couch. Paul faced Matt, unaware of the camera filming behind him.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Hey, wait, wait, can I get it dark in here?

• 6:41Speaker 03

  I'd like some lights off.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  That's too dark.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  No, that's perfect. Do you want me to just tell you the whole story?

• 6:51Speaker 04

  The thing is, is this is like very calculated, very sick. This is like they have either a Lifetime movie or a true crime episode on something like that, one of the two.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  It just doesn't, you didn't kill anybody. It's never going to make a podcast.

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Maybe I wondered if I would have got away with all this, but I.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  Seriously?

• 7:09Speaker 04

  Well, no, not literally.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Because that's like extra great.

• 7:14Speaker 04

  I know, I wouldn't tell anyone.

• 7:16Andrea Gunning?

  In the moment, Matt just played along.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  The mindset I was in was just like, if he's going to tell me anything, I'm going to have to make him comfortable.

• 7:24Andrea Gunning?

  But the whole night, Matt was thinking about the security camera in the corner of the room. Paul took Matt back to the very beginning.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  Long story short, I've known Carl since I was 20. When I met Carl, he was super overweight. That was before he got gastric sleeve surgery in 2020.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  You got gastric sleeve surgery?

• 7:50Speaker 04

  He did. He did a whole transformation.

• 7:54Andrea Gunning?

  There was a reason Paul brought up Carl's weight. It was why he'd rejected Carl when they first met.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  We were good friends and he liked me, but I wasn't into him like that at the time.

• 8:06Andrea Gunning?

  In Paul's mind, Carl was strictly friendzoned. That was until 10 years later, when Carl dropped 150 pounds. This was right around the time Paul's boyfriend Cory died and Carl broke up with Adam. The two of them were there for each other and suddenly Paul started to feel attracted to Carl. In the summer of 2022, they started hooking up. Before long, Paul wanted more.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  I was really like attracted to him. Like we started fooling around, went to a couple Cubs games, took a lot of pictures. Then fast forward October, I told him, hey, I have feelings for you. What do you think about taking it to the next level? Like, are you interested in that? What are you looking for, whatever?

• 8:52Andrea Gunning?

  By this point, Carl didn't want to date Paul. He told him he wanted to stay friends.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  Obviously I was like sad to hear that, but at the same time I was like, well, okay, I can't hate you.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  It sounds like so far he's been very upfront, anonymous.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  He was. No, and he didn't do anything wrong.

• 9:10Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was disappointed, but wasn't angry. He said he understood. Then about a month later, something changed.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  November 9th of 2022, I remember the date. I get this call from him and he's like, yeah, like, I didn't want to like make you feel bad or anything, but like I need to get this conversation over with, but like I made it official with this other person.

• 9:38Andrea Gunning?

  That person was Drew.

• 9:41Speaker 04

  I'm really sorry, but you're still like my best friend, you know? And then I just was crying.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, that's true. I mean, when you have a crush on somebody, it is like the worst.

• 9:52Speaker 04

  I hate it.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's not. It's not easy for him.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  The thing was, the mistake I made, well, serious, but like, I didn't give myself any kind of space or deal with it in a healthy way.

• 10:06Andrea Gunning?

  Even though Carl didn't want to date, he was still invested in his friendship with Paul, which made Paul feel like maybe he still had a chance.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  So I was like, I'm gonna sabotage this like you would never believe.

• 10:20Andrea Gunning?

  Phase one of his plan was keeping Carl busy, so he didn't have as much time to see Drew.

• 10:27Speaker 04

  I would like book up his calendar and we did a lot of things together throughout November, December, whatever.

• 10:34Andrea Gunning?

  But as the months passed, Carl and Drew kept getting closer.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  I was just so irritated and I was like, well, okay, I'm gonna like do everything I can to get in the way.

• 10:46Andrea Gunning?

  That's when Paul initiated phase two.

• 10:50Andrea Gunning?

  This plan involved Carl's ex-boyfriend, Adam.

• 10:54Speaker 04

  I knew that Adam was in jail. He was nervous for Adam to get out of jail in a couple of months. So this is all going on November, December, 2022. And I knew, oh, it's only about three more months before Adam gets out of jail. Oh, he has a crazy ex-boyfriend. He's in the middle of developing a new relationship.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Is he crazy or is he just a mess?

• 11:14Speaker 04

  Oh, both a little bit. And I was like, well, okay, this is interesting. I might as well exploit the fact that he's getting out of jail in a couple of months and figure out a way to derail this new relationship that Carl's in. And it'll be easy to, because I have like a kind of a crazy memory where I remembered certain like intimate details of their relationship. I knew certain things to say over like texts and things like that. And I just like sent some messages where he totally thought Adam was trying to mess with the current relationship.

• 11:55Andrea Gunning?

  He mentioned things like the Valentine's Day card Adam sent Carl from jail, the story about Carl and Adam going to White Castle together, or even the infamous baseball hat. These were all things Carl told Paul in the months after his breakup, but the details were so small, Carl had forgotten he'd shared them. He could have never guessed that they would become Paul's ammunition.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  My whole goal was I wanted to drive the new guy like so crazy. But meanwhile, I still hung out with them a lot. And like, I acted totally nice, like sociopathically.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  That does sound extra fucked up.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  It was. Yes. But I was really good at it. I was like, mm, like, you're so sweet. Like, you're so much nicer than like Adam. And I even hung out with Drew one-on-one plenty of times. And I like completely like just turned it off and put on the act. And then I started getting to a point where I'd spoof their number, both of their numbers, and I would call, like, don't, you're gonna judge me. I don't, whatever, I don't care. But like, I would call tow trucks, plumbers, locksmith, I even called a window service, but then I called an emergency vet. So a pet ambulance showed up one night and then.

• 13:09Speaker 03

  A pet ambulance?

• 13:11Speaker 04

  Whatever you want to call it.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  I've never even heard of a dog ambulance. How did you get a dog ambulance?

• 13:18Speaker 04

  I just told them to like get them to come out or whatever. But that was just one call. Okay.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  No, but I tell you, three dogs, they don't just come.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Let me just get more intense. So I want to tell you. So then I hired six people.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah, okay, let's talk about that.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  So this is really crazy. So I had a network.

• 13:38Speaker 03

  Almost circle back to the.

• 13:39Speaker 04

  I had a team of, a team of, of sick bitches. So I paid people to do numerous things over the course of the eight months. Like, I started the harassment pretty much right when Drew moved to Kenosha. It was six months into the relationship. They wanted to lie to themselves and fucking say that they aren't moving too fast, even though they are. So.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Well, I could give some insight into that.

• 14:11Speaker 04

  I have real rage. Sorry, I do. I wouldn't like if I could have kept doing shit, I would have like put Visine in his fucking stir fry.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  Wait, what does that do?

• 14:22Speaker 04

  Kills you.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Oh. But how do you know that?

• 14:26Speaker 04

  I Googled all that. But like, because I just want to fucking kill him.

• 14:34Speaker 05

  You heard his tone of voice shift when he started to talk about how much he hated Drew. It is a window to actual genuine hatred.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he was pounding the couch in rage in between bouts of like laughing about it, the way he's talking about this stuff. I, I just felt like he was absolutely out of control.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Check engine, ABS or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriskin. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriskin today.

• 16:14Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 16:26Speaker 05

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

• 16:33Andrea Gunning?

  Stories of survival.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 16:41Andrea Gunning?

  Cases that everyone else called closed.

• 16:44Speaker 05

  They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

• 16:48Andrea Gunning?

  These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

• 17:00Speaker 05

  She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's

• 17:11Andrea Gunning?

  a police uniform. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:23Andrea Gunning?

  Matt invited Paul over, curious what Paul might tell him. But as the night went on, it became clear, the whole situation with Carl and Paul was so much darker than he'd ever imagined. Paul was obsessed, and there was only one thing getting between him and Carl, Carl's new boyfriend, Drew.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Why are you so mad at this guy?

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Because I like just wanted Carl to myself.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Okay, but don't be mad at this guy.

• 17:51Speaker 04

  I know, but he's so fucking.

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't have to like him.

• 17:54Speaker 04

  Not because he's ugly, but because of like.

• 17:56Speaker 03

  Because he's ugly and Carl has a fucking retarded decision. So anyways, but I'll go on. So then I hired people.

• 18:04Andrea Gunning?

  Paul admitted he'd paid people to help him with the harassment. Remember that call to dispatch? The one where someone pretended to be Carl, saying Drew was hurting the dogs? I was just wondering if I could have a police officer out to my address. My boyfriend was like caught hitting my dog. Paul had recruited someone to make that call, and the date of it was very intentional.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  I had someone who I know has a drug problem, and I then owed them money on their anniversary, November 4th of 2023, when they'd been dating for a year or whatever. Because I was like, I don't want them to have fun. I don't want them to have a good anniversary.

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  I was like, I want to ruin their day.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  Why do you not just go?

• 18:55Speaker 04

  Just people have hooked up with over the years.

• 18:58Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 18:59Speaker 04

  So, so I.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  This is getting classier.

• 19:03Andrea Gunning?

  As Paul continued with his story, he opened a fresh bag of chips.

• 19:07Speaker 04

  So I called him and then like.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Can you make a false police report for me on a spoof number with a voice changer?

• 19:16Speaker 03

  How much did you pay him for that?

• 19:18Speaker 04

  Fifty bucks.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  Well, that's so sad because he probably wanted the drugs, right?

• 19:22Speaker 04

  He wanted opiates, but I'm like, say that this is Carl Brian. My boyfriend Andrew Condon is choking my dogs and hitting my dogs and abusing them. And I want him removed from the property.

• 19:34Andrea Gunning?

  This call became a smoking gun in the case against Adam because everyone thought it sounded just like him. Even Carl believed it was him. But the similarity between Adam's voice and the caller's voice, that was a total coincidence.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  Also, what I looked out with was the guy from Appleton that I told you about, the one that made the dogs report. Has like the exact same voice as fucking Adam on the police report or whatever. It sounded exactly the same as Adam's voice. And Carl was like, that's Adam's voice. So I was like, oh, this is great. Carl totally buys this.

• 20:12Andrea Gunning?

  Then Paul brought up an incident from September 2023 when someone called Drew's work and made fake child abuse allegations.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  I um, I have a coworker and he was gay and he flirted with me, but I hung out with him for the sole purpose of like this shit. I had him come over, didn't even fool around with them, didn't do anything, didn't pay him. I had him do a call to Carl's boyfriend Drew, his work, because he works for QuickTrip in Kenosha. His location is right next to a high school. So I had him pose and like use a voice changer and pretend to be a parent. And I just like had him say like all this like crazy stuff like, I'm just worried because one of your employees here, you know, picks up my son after school and leaves in a red car and this is the license plate because I knew the license plate.

• 21:03Speaker 04

  So I had them do that and make a false claim.

• 21:07Andrea Gunning?

  This incident tested Carl and Drew's relationship, but as you know, Drew's stuck by Carl. They continued reporting incidents to the police and keeping a low profile. Paul was pissed.

• 21:21Speaker 04

  I didn't like the fact that they were trying to like just be happy boyfriends and get back to their life.

• 21:26Speaker 03

  I think that's the root of this whole.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. But then I was just like, I'll be damned if they're gonna like be happy.

• 21:33Andrea Gunning?

  The harassment wasn't breaking up Carl and Drew, so Paul decided to up the ante.

• 21:40Andrea Gunning?

  This is when he started sending extortion messages and eventually messages that made it look like Carl was cheating on Drew. And by the way, in this next section, Paul refers to Drew only as Iowa because that's where Drew's from.

• 21:55Speaker 04

  I wanted to paint the picture to Iowa and that Carl, the one I have a crush on, is cheating on with not only me, but other people too.

• 22:04Speaker 03

  So but then what did that do with your relationship or friendship with Carl?

• 22:07Speaker 04

  Oh, it actually got better because Iowa was believing all this stuff that I was doing.

• 22:12Speaker 03

  Wait, so how would that make your relationship with Carl?

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Well, because he needed a shoulder to cry on because, you know, Iowa.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  But wouldn't he put it together that you fabricated?

• 22:21Speaker 04

  No, because he was so brainwashed by that point that it was all Adam because of certain things that I did in the past and certain like connections that I made. So then finally where I fucked up. Okay. And I'll admit I was.

• 22:37Speaker 03

  For the very first time in this whole story.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  I paid one other person to make another report that Drew was unhinged and intoxicated and had like a knife. My boyfriend Andrew Condon has a knife. I walked and I spoke in the bathroom. The police searched and like Drew was like naked in bed in the middle of the night. He had to work early and like, I just got satisfaction out of the fact that they like came in and searched Drew and were like, Drew, like, we need to come out and search you. And like, he was so mad and everything. And I was just like, good, I'm ruining their night.

• 23:12Andrea Gunning?

  There was a reason Paul chose that particular moment to take things further.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  I was mad that they had a good New Year's together. And I was just like, they don't deserve to be happy.

• 23:25Andrea Gunning?

  By this point, Matt and Paul had been talking for an hour. It was like all of this was just everyday gossip to Paul. He laid back on the couch and let one of the dogs curl up in his lap. He smiled and swirled his wine. Then Matt decided to steer the conversation a bit more.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  So I, I feel guilty saying this because I've never been to therapy, but are you in therapy?

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Okay. Do you have a good therapist?

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it's just like talking to you, you know, it's like talking to anyone. I can identify things about myself pretty well. It's just.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  Like it feels too strong for you to be able to overcome and do it.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I have a disconnect where when I have like jealousy, I'm kind of sociopathic about it where it's like, it, it just like any kind of moral compass or any kind of logic just sort of goes out the window where it's like, if it was legal to shove glass into like his boyfriend's eyes or something or paralyze him from the waist down, I would do it. And I would just be like, hey, Matt, let's get dinner. Let's go to Santino's. What do you want? And maybe not that bad, but like you get the point.

• 24:35Andrea Gunning?

  On the inside, Matt was stunned, but he kept his cool. He knew that was the only way to keep Paul talking.

• 24:43Speaker 03

  I understand because I know you well and I don't know you super well, but I get that we're like that part of your brain, which seems like if I'm going to be hurt, other people are going to be hurt.

• 24:55Speaker 04

  You're so right. So you, you explain that better than like anyone. Like if someone pisses me off on level one, I want to punish them on level six.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't want to, like your brain's not gonna let that happen at all, you know?

• 25:10Speaker 04

  If it was legal, I'd paralyze him.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Would you paralyze him before you put glass in his eyes?

• 25:16Speaker 04

  I wouldn't kill him.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  The glass in his.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  The whole point of not killing.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  This is the big stuff right here.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Maybe you say that out loud in a mirror and you'll be like, oh, man.

• 25:31Andrea Gunning?

  I have to say you were masterful. It was a delicate dance that you were doing of keeping it casual, holding him to account when you're like, well, I don't feel like that's right.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  Like I'm never really exactly fake with him. That's what was confusing to me too about why he would even tell me because I've never been particularly nice to him. But then he came in there, he was ready to tell me anyway. It's like he didn't comprehend the serious, serious shit he was in.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  I did something wrong, I know.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  You're right. And I know that you know that on paper, right?

• 26:05Speaker 04

  No, I know it emotionally regardless of how I feel. Okay. I realize and I acknowledge that someone doesn't deserve to pay the price just because they rejected me. I understand where that's hurtful.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Thing is, you wanted this guy and you were hurting and like.

• 26:23Speaker 04

  And I was relentless because I couldn't accept the reality of his decision.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  I mean, Paul, let's say you didn't get caught. How long away was like vising, you know, like how?

• 26:37Speaker 04

  That's what my mom said. Okay. But like.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  So you told her.

• 26:41Speaker 04

  Yeah. But I knew I had to stop, but what I would have done if I wouldn't have been caught, I would have figured out a different way to be.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, better way.

• 26:52Speaker 04

  Maybe if the technology thing was over, I would have bought drugs or something and I would have like.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  Crushed him up and put him in.

• 26:59Speaker 04

  Right. In his car or like done something evil. I would have taken it to every extent I could.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Right. Right.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  So that was relentless.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  When did your mom know about any of that like before you got arrested or did you just have to tell her?

• 27:12Speaker 04

  The whole fucking thing.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Like after.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:17Andrea Gunning?

  In the middle of their conversation, as Paul was confessing to serious crimes, he paused to take out his phone. He held out a photo for Matt to see.

• 27:27Speaker 04

  This is me and Carl at Michael's wedding.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  It's a cute picture.

• 27:33Andrea Gunning?

  Then Paul pulled up a photo of Drew.

• 27:36Speaker 04

  He's in the middle. Look at him. I still look better than he does.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Regardless, why does it? So let's just say this guy was ugly as shit. It doesn't matter what the reason is. You don't have to explain it. He lies that bad.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  I'm not blaming you. It, it's just like, I don't know why you have this like, you have this like, like itch to do it.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  You're charged with like felonies. Like you don't need me to talk about how ugly this guy is.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  Fine, fine, fine.

• 28:12Andrea Gunning?

  It had now been several hours and Matt was reaching a breaking point. He was finally pushing back on Paul and Paul took notice.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  You're making me feel worse because you're pointing out reality. I made mistakes and.

• 28:28Speaker 03

  I get it, but this is like you, you're like yo-yoing between like the anger that I can see that you can't control. And then giving me the services like, I understand this is fucked up, but then.

• 28:42Speaker 04

  But I'm still not over the joke.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  But then you like yo-yo back and being obsessive about it. Like let me find pictures.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, because I can still feel both emotions at the same time.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true. Like I, I believe you know it was wrong, but I, but I also believe you don't care.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  I don't.

• 29:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:00Speaker 04

  Yeah. You want to know why I don't? You want to know why I don't? Because of the fact that I, it's not like I physically injured anyone. I psychologically bullied them. But who really cares? Because everything's so fucking great in his life, because everything's just so peachy keen in his life. It pisses me off that, oh, someone can just reject you, but like, have things going well in their life and like be on a mentally good track and have a boyfriend that's mentally fucking healthy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, I get really upset and I just get really, no, I'm not happy for you.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Right. You don't have to be.

• 29:43Speaker 04

  My stepdad said something that really resonated with me. He's like, are you sorry for what you did or are you sorry that you got caught? I'm sorry that I got caught. I'm sorry for what I did and I think you know that.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  Check engine, ABS or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

• 31:18Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Melissa Jelton, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her? I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide.

• 31:30Speaker 05

  She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety.

• 31:36Andrea Gunning?

  Stories of survival.

• 31:38Speaker 04

  The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead.

• 31:45Andrea Gunning?

  Cases that everyone else called closed.

• 31:48Speaker 05

  They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence.

• 31:52Andrea Gunning?

  These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies.

• 32:04Speaker 05

  She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 32:16Andrea Gunning?

  Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 32:25Andrea Gunning?

  It was now after 10:00 PM. Paul and Matt had been talking for nearly three hours. Matt remained on alert, perched on the edge of the couch, never taking his eyes off Paul. But Paul made himself comfortable. He was wrapped in a blanket, curled up with Matt's dog. Matt turned the conversation to Paul's legal case.

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Let's break it down. The fact of the matter is, you're charged with felonies.

• 32:52Andrea Gunning?

  Paul had been charged with three counts of felony stalking. He also had a misdemeanor charge for making a false statement to police. Those charges meant he could face up to 11 years and three months in prison.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  The goal is to get him either dropped down to misdemeanors or, worst case, if I'm charged with this stuff, that it be a probationary thing.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  I'm sure you'll just get probation.

• 33:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Really, honestly, probably what you need is probation.

• 33:25Speaker 04

  I'm listening.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  I personally hope it's a long probation.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Paul, you clearly need it.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Like, what else is gonna stop you?

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Me? No, I'm listening.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  And again, I'm sympathizing.

• 33:41Speaker 04

  But I feel like you're looking down on me.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  Well, I am not charged with three felonies.

• 33:46Speaker 04

  Okay, but you don't have to, like...

• 33:48Speaker 03

  I'm not looking, but...

• 33:49Speaker 04

  Like, but you can, and you can tell me from an outsider looking in, do you think it was horrible, what I did? And that's fine if you do, I don't really care. But like, do you think...

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Let me answer it this way. If that happened to you, would you think it was horrible?

• 34:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'd wanna kill him, you know? Yeah, I get it.

• 34:10Speaker 03

  You would think it's horrible, so why are you asking me if I would think it was horrible?

• 34:14Speaker 04

  I was just asking.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Of course it's horrible.

• 34:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know what I feel the most guilty, though? But now, and I'm being honest, this isn't lip service. What I actually feel really like was the most horrible thing that I did was the fact that I... The phone call about trying to get him in trouble at work was just horrible.

• 34:35Andrea Gunning?

  He's referring to something he mentioned earlier. The call to Drew's job, when he had someone make fake child abuse allegations to try to get Drew fired.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  I still feel bad about, like, to me, character-wise, like, I actually feel bad.

• 34:51Speaker 03

  Why that, though? Like, what makes you feel bad about?

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Because that's really fucked up, like, to try to get someone fired from their job.

• 34:59Speaker 03

  Not the fact that you were trying to terrorize parents that, like, thought maybe their kids could be getting picked out.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  They probably went to, like, soccer practice two days later and forgot about it, so I don't really care.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  I don't have kids, but I can imagine...

• 35:16Speaker 04

  I hate kids, anyway. What would you do if, like, I come over sometime? And like, I bring, like, a side dish and, like, wine, and then all of a sudden, like, I have, like, in my little, like, syringe, just like, you see, like, Visine!

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Well, we all know, you're not gonna let us see a syringe, which is also why I'll be pouring the drinks, and also, any wine you bring over must be sealed, fully.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. Because you're fucking crazy.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  I mean...

• 35:54Andrea Gunning?

  As Paul spoke, he kept calmly petting one of Matt's dogs.

• 35:59Speaker 04

  Man, can I ever watch the dogs?

• 36:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  I will put Visine in you because you can't break my heart because you're a punk.

• 36:10Speaker 03

  I mean, a dog could break your heart.

• 36:12Speaker 04

  I don't want you to fall off the couch, honey.

• 36:17Speaker 04

  You know, you're in good care. Oh, yes.

• 36:20Andrea Gunning?

  He hugged the dog close and nuzzled his face, but suddenly, something pulled his focus.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  Oh, man, where's my phone?

• 36:28Speaker 03

  I don't know why, is that coming more evidence?

• 36:32Speaker 04

  Evidence.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, they probably got all they need. They probably got all they need before they talked to you.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  You're so mean, oh, my God.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  I mean...

• 36:43Speaker 04

  You really think I'm, like, terrible? But I can tell you think I'm bad.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Paul!

• 36:49Speaker 04

  I know you do.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  Look at me when I say this.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Paul, anyone would think all the shit you did wasn't good.

• 37:02Speaker 04

  At least Paul alive here, there was no Visine, there was no...

• 37:07Speaker 03

  And, look, that's legitimately positive.

• 37:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  I mean...

• 37:12Speaker 04

  We were a step away.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:16Andrea Gunning?

  If you didn't catch that, let me repeat it. Paul said they were a step away from Visine being involved. Then, he immediately brushed it off as a joke. I asked Matt about this moment. The way that he speaks about Visine, what do you make of that?

• 37:34Speaker 03

  It was one of the things that night that made it a lot more serious for me, and like, I don't know if that's something he'd actually do, but he brings it up multiple times and then, like, laughed about it. That part of the conversation, it was definitely put me on a higher alert and made me feel like, oh, this could be even more serious than all the stuff he was already doing. I was, like, super scared.

• 38:00Andrea Gunning?

  At what point are you like, this person just needs to get out of my house?

• 38:03Speaker 03

  For as scared as I was, I realized how valuable this could be for justice, and I was gonna let him stay there for as long as he was willing to talk.

• 38:16Andrea Gunning?

  But around the four-hour mark, the night began to wind down.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  Either way, Matt, keep this conversation between us.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  I mean, what am I gonna say that people don't rethink?

• 38:27Speaker 04

  Well, no, but this is actually serious because, like, do you, please do not, keep this between us. Keep the things that I talked to about my whole case situation between us. Why is it like a thing that you have to, like, gossip about me?

• 38:42Speaker 03

  Someone we know got arrested, and it is very juicy, Paul. If somebody you knew got arrested, you wouldn't just not talk about it?

• 38:54Andrea Gunning?

  Madass Paul, if someone asked him what they talked about, what should he say? Paul was prepared.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  I have a good answer.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  So...

• 39:03Speaker 04

  But will you lie, though?

• 39:05Speaker 03

  If this lies believable...

• 39:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  So...

• 39:10Speaker 04

  You've never met Russell, or you did, you did, you did.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  I don't remember any, but it was...

• 39:16Speaker 04

  He's a nut job.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  How is this Russell person involved in the lie?

• 39:20Speaker 04

  Well, because he was one of the people I hired. So you can say that Russell, because he's, like, into a lot of IT stuff, whatever, and without talking about any of the other stuff I told you or people I hired, without talking about any other details, just say, according to Paul, Russell foofed his IP address.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Wait, so am I, like, implicating somebody?

• 39:44Speaker 04

  I've already had someone else do that for me.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  I don't wanna...

• 39:49Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, but you know what? You, no, but you're not implicating someone.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  Like, you said that.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, you're not doing that. You're not saying, you believe me, you could even, like, joke, or you could even, like, talk shit, like you probably will.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Hopefully, there's your rebounds now.

• 40:04Andrea Gunning?

  Soon after this, Paul headed home. In the recording, you can see him walking away, smiling, as if this were the end of any other casual hang.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  We'll get together again soon.

• 40:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, Russell, two L's, one S, better. Thanks for coming.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  Thanks. Night, night.

• 40:30Andrea Gunning?

  As Paul left, Matt's husband Dave came upstairs. Dave had no idea what had been discussed that night, what details Paul had shared.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  I was exhausted. I couldn't tell him.

• 40:42Andrea Gunning?

  But Matt didn't need to, because they had everything on video. Dave could watch the entire evening back. So when Matt went to bed...

• 40:52Speaker 03

  He stayed up all night, watching the entire four and a half hours.

• 40:56Andrea Gunning?

  And in watching the video, Dave could see that every moment of Matt and Paul's conversation was crystal clear.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  We have everything.

• 41:11Andrea Gunning?

  On the next episode, the confession tape becomes evidence. Is this a real Paul with his mask off, and I'm finally seeing him for the first time? But if you think Paul's crimes are over, you're wrong. Paul asked him, like, how much would you charge to kill someone? And Joseph said, so I told him... Well, it would be $200,000 in gold coin.

• 41:38Andrea Gunning?

  If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

• 42:16Andrea Gunning?

  Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Caitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulkey, our associate producer is Leah Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt Del Vecchio. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mahia, Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed

• 42:59Andrea Gunning?

  by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule, so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at chatgpt.com.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 44:13Andrea Gunning?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.