Blind Spot | EP 5 | The Confidante

The real perpetrator is unmasked, and Carl is forced to face an unimaginable truth. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod https://www.instagram.com/betrayalpod/ and @glasspodcasts https://www.instagram.com/glasspodcasts/. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. If you are currently in crisis, please reach out to organizations that offer immediate support. We are including a few US-based resources here: 988 Lifeline. https://988lifeline.org/ If you or someone you know is in crisis or need to talk to someone immediately, please call or text 988 – the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline available 24/7/365. National Domestic Violence Hotline https://www.thehotline.org/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=domestic_violence. They offer 24/7 phone and chat support to help you create a personalized safety plan and connect you with local support. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN’s National Sexual Assault Hotline. Text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. Every state has a domestic violence coalition. If you’re looking for help in the US, search the web for your state’s domestic violence coalition. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Andrea Gunning?

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• 0:05Andrea Gunning?

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• 3:00Andrea Gunning?

  On January 23rd, 2024, Paul Augustine heard a knock at his front door.

• 3:06Speaker 04

  Yes, department!

• 3:07Speaker 05

  Okay, okay, we're good. I'll be right there.

• 3:10Speaker 04

  Mind if I step in?

• 3:11Speaker 05

  I'm scared.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 3:12Speaker 05

  What's going on?

• 3:13Speaker 04

  Mind if I step in?

• 3:15Speaker 05

  I mean, kind of, yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 04

  Can you come on down and talk to me?

• 3:19Andrea Gunning?

  Paul seemed reluctant to get too close to the officers, who were now standing in his living room.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  I'm scared I've never...

• 3:26Speaker 06

  Why are you scared, Paul?

• 3:28Speaker 05

  Okay, because cops are... I've never had this happen.

• 3:31Speaker 04

  Take it a breath. You're okay.

• 3:33Speaker 05

  I'm nervous and I want to let my mom know what's going on.

• 3:35Speaker 06

  What's, uh, what's going on?

• 3:37Speaker 05

  I'm really, really scared.

• 3:40Andrea Gunning?

  The walls were closing in on Paul.

• 3:56Andrea Gunning?

  I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season Six. Episode Five. Blind Spot.

• 4:05Andrea Gunning?

  In the last episode of Betrayal, the wrong man was arrested for stalking and harassing Carl Bryan. All the circumstantial evidence pointed to Carl's ex, Adam Mejia. There had been a year of harassing messages, escalating in severity, all from spoofed phone numbers.

• 4:24Speaker 07

  You'll have hell to pay. Your new boyfriend should know the truth about what you did. Why is it okay for you to just move on? All I can wait for is the shitstorm that is about to reach. Should I show Andrew the proof of the shit I dug up? Good luck with school board. Got Venmo? Not like anyone has access to all your information. That'd be horrible.

• 4:47Andrea Gunning?

  The day after Detective George arrested Adam Mejia, she got a report back from the spoofing company. The results shocked her. Every single message linked back to one phone number. And it wasn't Adam's.

• 5:02Speaker 04

  I had been a pawn in Paul Augustine's game.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  He had set up Adam Mejia to take the fall for him.

• 5:13Andrea Gunning?

  When Detective George learned the truth, she rushed to release Adam Mejia from custody.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  I started making phone calls. I called the attorney's office and I said, "Hey, we got the wrong guy." And I said, "I am 100% sure you need to release him right now."

• 5:28Andrea Gunning?

  Then she set out to question the real perpetrator. She and her partner, Nick Morrow, drove to Sam's Club. That's where Paul Augustine worked. A manager offered them an office where they could speak with Paul privately, off the sales floor. The detectives didn't tell Paul they were coming. He seemed quite surprised to see them.

• 5:50Speaker 06

  Mind if we sit with you?

• 5:53Andrea Gunning?

  As far as Paul knew, he'd gotten away with it. Adam had been arrested, just as he'd planned. Instead of confronting Paul with the new information they'd found, detectives decided to engage in a bit of theater.

• 6:09Andrea Gunning?

  For a lot of this episode, we'll be playing police body cam audio. Some of the names have been redacted, as you'll hear. The detectives explained to Paul that they had come to tie up a few loose ends. They wanted to gather some outstanding evidence for their case against Adam. And by the way, you'll hear some background music playing in the store.

• 6:30Speaker 04

  Okay. Do you have any messages on your phone still?

• 6:32Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, I deleted them.

• 6:34Speaker 04

  Do you have any calls or anything?

• 6:36Speaker 05

  Well, so what I've done, I've sent them all to [BLEEP].

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:39Speaker 05

  So I, unfortunately, no, I haven't saved everything because he's been the one, he's kind of taken over.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  Do you have even like one call on there left over still, or?

• 6:49Speaker 05

  I, honest to God, I don't. And I feel bad.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  I know.

• 6:53Andrea Gunning?

  It was a game of pretend for both the detectives and for Paul. So Paul shifted the subject. He wanted to know why the authorities had shown up to his workplace unannounced.

• 7:05Speaker 05

  I was just uncomfortable because I was like, you know, it makes me like look bad at work. Like I was kind of like...

• 7:11Speaker 06

  Oh, no, we told him you're not in trouble or anything.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  Okay, good.

• 7:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, you're good there.

• 7:14Speaker 05

  I always like assume, like, I think when you see police, like, you're just like, oh, my God, what happened?

• 7:18Speaker 06

  I even get nervous if I get pulled over, so I... And I am a cop, so I get it.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:23Andrea Gunning?

  Detectives put Paul at ease. But of course, Paul had every reason to be nervous. The cops knew exactly who they were talking to, and they wanted to keep him talking. Paul brought up Adam, asking how much trouble he was in, if he was facing felony charges.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  And it's actually a felony.

• 7:43Speaker 04

  Stalking is automatically a felony in Wisconsin?

• 7:45Speaker 05

  Oh, well, good.

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  I'm not complaining.

• 7:48Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George redirected the conversation. She wanted to know, how was Paul connected to Carl and the harassment?

• 7:56Speaker 04

  Wow, like, how did you get drawn into this? Are you really close [BLEEP] or like...

• 8:00Speaker 05

  We are really close friends.

• 8:02Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  I've known [BLEEP] for, well, about 10 years.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 8:06Speaker 05

  So, but we've never actually dated or anything like that. We've just been, we've like explored the idea, but it's never actually like turned into that.

• 8:14Andrea Gunning?

  Detective Morrow started pressing Paul a little bit further.

• 8:18Speaker 06

  So you guys are best friends, right? Are you guys like really close best friends then, I'm assuming?

• 8:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 06

  So you guys share everything and hang out all the time and all that?

• 8:27Speaker 05

  Of course, yeah, super often. I've seen him probably over the weekend, you know, just like for the Packer game or something.

• 8:33Speaker 06

  Right.

• 8:34Speaker 04

  Always been pretty traumatized by these and scared.

• 8:37Speaker 05

  Me too.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  I can imagine that message are pretty scary.

• 8:41Andrea Gunning?

  Paul did his best to regain control and turn the focus back to Adam.

• 8:45Speaker 05

  Now that he's been arrested, has he, have you guys even searched his phone?

• 8:49Speaker 04

  We're working on that. So no one else uses your phone where they could have gone in and like...

• 8:53Speaker 05

  No.

• 8:54Speaker 04

  Use your information? Have you ever like lost your phone? Or I guess you always have your phone with you.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  I've lost it before, yes.

• 9:01Speaker 04

  And how long was your phone lost for?

• 9:03Speaker 05

  But when I say lost, I mean like misplaced.

• 9:06Speaker 04

  Didn't know where it was.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, for like maybe what, an hour or two?

• 9:08Speaker 04

  Okay. We've been asking everybody this. Have you ever downloaded like any type of spoofing apps or anything like that?

• 9:14Speaker 05

  We tested out one just to see, like, just because we were curious what [BLEEP] was doing. But like, I mean, I just deleted it right away.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Do you remember what the name of that was?

• 9:24Speaker 05

  To be honest, no.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  So I wrote search warrants to a couple of different spoof companies.

• 9:29Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:29Speaker 04

  And one of the apps showed that you had an account.

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  Do you remember that?

• 9:34Speaker 05

  Well, like I said, I, we did download one just to like test it out because I've been leery about, you know, it's like my phone has been hacked. So unless he was able to download another one that I'm unaware of, yeah, I don't have much for you.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  Okay. So the issue is that...

• 9:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 9:52Speaker 04

  Some of these messages that are being sent [BLEEP]. We're coming from your phone.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  Well, that's weird. Okay? I'm unaware of that. I mean, what am I supposed to say?

• 10:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what we're trying to figure out.

• 10:06Andrea Gunning?

  Detective George asked Paul if he'd be willing to sign a form, allowing them to do a forensic download of his phone.

• 10:13Speaker 05

  Do I have to agree to that?

• 10:15Speaker 04

  You don't have to, no. It would just make it a lot easier.

• 10:18Speaker 05

  I don't really feel comfortable with that. This is really intense. And if he actually did have the ability to spy on our phone, he's been able to do that, okay? I don't know if he's hacked both of our phones. You know, he very well could have put a lot of stuff on whether it's my phone, phone, or phone, so.

• 10:39Andrea Gunning?

  Paul was clearly uncomfortable. The detectives told him they needed to search his phone. They said it could help in the case against Adam.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  It would help us out in the long run, too, especially with charging him further with everything.

• 10:52Speaker 05

  It would. Okay.

• 10:54Andrea Gunning?

  If Paul didn't have anything to hide, giving over his phone shouldn't be a problem.

• 10:59Speaker 05

  Um, can I think it over before I like sign something?

• 11:03Speaker 06

  We'll just need an answer probably by the end of our conversation today.

• 11:07Speaker 05

  If I sign that and then, so it would actually be good if you did find something because then worst case, like if I don't sign that, would he not even get in trouble? Or I don't really know.

• 11:20Andrea Gunning?

  It's legal for detectives to lie to suspects, and that's what Detective Morrow did. He told Paul that yes, if he consented to the search of his phone, that evidence could help keep Adam in prison.

• 11:33Speaker 06

  It'll be just easier for the judge to be like, yeah, this is concrete. He's staying.

• 11:39Andrea Gunning?

  But Paul still didn't want to give up his phone. He reminded detectives about other evidence they already had against Adam.

• 11:47Speaker 05

  Cause like he broke the no contact order from what I remember. And then you even heard his voice on the fake report that he made about the thing with beating up the dogs or whatever.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  Yep, I heard it.

• 12:00Speaker 05

  So like, isn't that alone, you know, regardless of extra things enough to charge him with whatever?

• 12:08Speaker 06

  If he's got a good lawyer, you never know. Would I be able to see one more thing on your phone?

• 12:13Speaker 05

  What do you need?

• 12:14Speaker 06

  Just your IP address?

• 12:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, I just, I just don't feel comfortable like giving out really any more info. And please don't take it personal. I know you guys are doing your job. I just, it's more that like, I wish I could have come to you, really like caught me off guard and I don't know. So like, I just don't really want to give out any more info.

• 12:37Andrea Gunning?

  When it was clear Paul wasn't going to cooperate, detectives gave up the act. Detective George looked him straight in the eye and for the first time, told him why they were really there.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  So we are going to be seizing this phone's evidence?

• 12:52Speaker 05

  What do you mean by that?

• 12:53Speaker 04

  We are, we are seizing it and taking it with us as evidence?

• 12:56Speaker 05

  So I can't have my dip by you?

• 12:58Speaker 04

  No, so we are going to be writing a search warrant for it.

• 13:01Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Because we know what's going on.

• 13:05Speaker 05

  In terms of?

• 13:08Speaker 06

  Why are you so nervous? And what's on that phone that you think we know about that you don't want us knowing about?

• 13:14Speaker 05

  What do you mean like?

• 13:15Speaker 06

  You know what I mean, dude. I, I don't mean to be rude, but we just told you that your phone number is being associated with a spoof thing and it's a little bit more than just one time doing it.

• 13:27Andrea Gunning?

  Detective Morrow was getting frustrated. He told us he'd come there half expecting Paul to confess.

• 13:35Speaker 06

  When you first meet Paul, that was my first time seeing him. I'm like, there's no way this guy isn't going to crack. He looks like someone that you tell him, we got everything. He's going to be like, ah shit, I'm caught. But that just wasn't the case. And I was actually kind of pissed off that I didn't get consent that day.

• 13:52Andrea Gunning?

  Despite Paul's protests, detectives took his phone into evidence.

• 13:57Speaker 06

  Before we leave, we're going to give you one last opportunity to tell us anything you want to tell us.

• 14:02Speaker 05

  I mean, like, so you're going to look through regardless of whether or not something's been deleted or whatnot? Like, what do you exactly?

• 14:11Speaker 06

  We're going to find whatever's on your phone.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  Okay. Like, if you're so convinced that it's me, then how come [BLEEP] was even arrested in the first place? For this?

• 14:24Andrea Gunning?

  Adam's name is redacted, but what Paul wanted to know was, why did you even arrest Adam if you think it's me? That's when Detective George finally told Paul the news that Adam had been released.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  Oh, I didn't realize. Okay.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 14:46Andrea Gunning?

  For a year, Paul had been the puppet master. He'd manipulated Carl, Drew, Adam. He'd even manipulated investigators. But now, he was no longer pulling the strings. Detective Morrow gave Paul one last opportunity to give consent for his phone to be searched without a warrant.

• 15:08Speaker 05

  What's the difference even?

• 15:11Speaker 04

  The warrant is longer.

• 15:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, um, so basically it just drags the whole thing out?

• 15:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:17Andrea Gunning?

  Then, for once, Paul said something that was the complete truth.

• 15:22Speaker 05

  Well, I'm going to drag it out.

• 15:24Andrea Gunning?

  And that's exactly what he did.

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• 16:28Andrea Gunning?

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• 17:05Andrea Gunning?

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• 17:47Andrea Gunning?

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• 19:26Andrea Gunning?

  On the morning of January 19th, while detectives were questioning Paul at his job, Carl got a call. The Kenosha Sheriff's Department wanted to see him and his boyfriend Drew.

• 19:39Andrea Gunning?

  It's delicate work telling a victim of a crime that their theory of the case is wrong and that the real perpetrator is their closest friend. That would need to be an in-person conversation. When Carl and Drew got to the station, Deputy Roors greeted them.

• 19:56Speaker 06

  Essentially, we just got to go over a couple of things. Because it's the last process, we just need to talk to you separately. We'll talk with Andrew first.

• 20:05Andrea Gunning?

  What was the point in bringing in Carl and Drew for an interview and then separating them?

• 20:12Speaker 07

  That's standard course in any investigation. People, whether they know it or not, kind of feed off of each other. But it's also just trying to make sure that all of our bases are covered and trying to connect the dots of like, did one of them possibly know about this?

• 20:31Andrea Gunning?

  The sheriff's department had already arrested the wrong guy, and they weren't about to make the same mistake twice. Before they could arrest Paul and say that he was the sole mastermind, they had to rule out all other possibilities.

• 20:46Speaker 06

  Hopefully, it shouldn't take too incredibly long.

• 20:48Andrea Gunning?

  Is that what they needed Paul for too?

• 20:50Speaker 06

  Paul's was separate. Yeah. And Andrew will come right in here.

• 20:56Andrea Gunning?

  Deputy Roors walked Drew down a hallway. Carl was led to a small lounge and asked to wait. But as the minutes ticked by, he grew anxious. What was taking so long?

• 21:08Speaker 05

  It was probably for about a good half hour. I was by myself and I'm like, okay, so what's really happening? And then eventually, the door opens up. Drew walks in. We switch places and Drew has a look on his face. He's very red. That is not a face I've seen on him before. And I thought, oh, my God. Something bad is happening.

• 21:36Andrea Gunning?

  Carl followed Deputy Roors to a conference room with gray walls and a small oval table. Another detective was there to assist. Immediately, Deputy Roors dropped the act.

• 21:49Speaker 06

  So I'm going to start off a little bit of false pretenses why we brought you guys over here.

• 21:54Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 21:55Speaker 06

  Okay. I talked to you about how we went up. We served the search warrant.

• 21:59Andrea Gunning?

  He was referring to the search warrant of Adam's home. Despite going through Adam's electronics, they couldn't find anything to prove he was behind the harassment. The deputy also brought up Adam's interrogation and how firm Adam was in his innocence.

• 22:16Speaker 06

  He was extremely cooperative. Extremely cooperative. He let us go through his phone. He let us go through his computer. We took both of those things. I mean, we've scoured everything. Last night, Detective George got one of her search warrants back from the spoofing companies. After reading these messages, they sound like they come from somebody who intimately knows your life.

• 22:39Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 06

  Can you think of anybody who would know this much detail? That probably isn't Adam.

• 22:47Andrea Gunning?

  I'm really curious. Why not just tell Carl straight up it was Paul?

• 22:52Speaker 07

  Just human nature. We only see what we want to see. They believed that Paul was their friend. And especially with Paul spamming himself so that he could look like a victim too. I don't think that they could comprehend how it could have been Paul. So I think we were trying to get them to get to that conclusion themselves.

• 23:12Andrea Gunning?

  For nearly a year, Carl had clung to the fact that Adam was the perpetrator. He'd spent months convincing authorities of the same. Authorities couldn't just come right out and tell Carl he'd been wrong and that the real perpetrator was his best friend of all people. He'd never believed them.

• 23:33Speaker 06

  Can you think of anybody who would have this intimate detail that would know this stuff?

• 23:39Andrea Gunning?

  Carl tried to think. It couldn't be his mom or his sister. It couldn't be Drew. And in his mind, it couldn't be Paul either.

• 23:50Speaker 05

  He does not have a malicious bone in his body and he's not tech savvy at all. There is nothing that had gone on in the friendship, the course of my friendship that I have had with Paul where like there would be any sort of motive that he is trying to break up me and Drew or he's trying to get some sort of revenge on me.

• 24:10Andrea Gunning?

  Carl reminded detectives why Adam was the only logical perpetrator. Because the harassing texts he received referenced very specific moments from their relationship.

• 24:23Speaker 05

  The text messages that I have received were all based on my relationship with him. Stuff about like a visit to White Castle when we were dating.

• 24:31Andrea Gunning?

  There were so many more examples, details only Adam would know. The guilt Carl felt for not calling an Uber the night of Adam's DUI, the Valentine's Day card Adam sent from prison, the baseball cap Adam took when they broke up.

• 24:47Speaker 05

  I couldn't tell it to anybody else.

• 24:49Andrea Gunning?

  Only, Carl had told someone else. He just didn't remember.

• 24:56Andrea Gunning?

  That's how much he trusted Paul, how enmeshed Paul was in his life. Detectives realized Carl wasn't going to come to this conclusion on his own. So they had to ask him directly.

• 25:10Andrea Gunning?

  Had he ever noticed Paul Augustine acting strangely? Carl was taken aback. He racked his brain. As he replayed the last year in his memory, one or two moments with Paul stood out, like how Paul handled the texts he was getting.

• 25:26Speaker 05

  He was getting a death threat.

• 25:29Speaker 07

  Someone's not going to make it out of this alive. And if you're stupid and show him this message, it just might be you.

• 25:38Speaker 05

  I'm sitting here talking on the phone with him for 45 minutes and I'm like, dude, you have to file a police report. You are getting a death threat from this text message. But instead, he's crying to me about like how it makes him feel and how he just wanted to make sure that like we all feel safe and supported.

• 25:55Speaker 06

  Is there any other instances like that?

• 25:57Speaker 05

  There was another time where the three of us had met with you to sign off on those statements.

• 26:04Andrea Gunning?

  These were incident reports, filed in the early days of the harassment.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  And I was like, you need to sign this. You know, because if you don't sign this, this does, this, I'm afraid that this won't lend as much credibility to what's like this ongoing investigation.

• 26:20Andrea Gunning?

  But Paul resisted. He didn't feel comfortable getting involved with the cops.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  It was just a little frustrating though, because it was, it felt like, you know, we had come this far, you know, an investigation was happening. Sign the paperwork, get the thing going. And he was kind of dragging his feet.

• 26:38Andrea Gunning?

  Still, Carl couldn't see Paul as being the perpetrator here.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  I've known him for 10 years. I'm pretty good at reading him. Like I know when like he's BSing.

• 26:48Andrea Gunning?

  Carl would have to see the evidence himself to believe it. The deputy took a deep breath and slid a piece of paper across the table to Carl. It was the report from the spoofing company.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  So this company, it's called Spoof Card. And it's like, it's an app that you, that you can get on your phone.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  And so basically, you have to put in a phone number to verify you. And the phone number has to, it has to be a legitimate phone number.

• 27:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 06

  Would it surprise you to know that those are registered?

• 27:21Andrea Gunning?

  The redacted name was Paul's. Would Carl be surprised to know that the spoofing app could be traced back to Paul?

• 27:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.

• 27:33Andrea Gunning?

  The deputies pointed at the piece of paper in front of Carl. All the spoof texts and calls.

• 27:40Speaker 06

  Sent.

• 27:41Speaker 05

  Sent.

• 27:42Speaker 06

  All of those.

• 27:42Speaker 05

  Every single one of these.

• 27:45Andrea Gunning?

  Every text, every spoof call, every threat. The tow trucks, the extortion, the nude photos, the police rushing to his home. It was all tied to one person. Paul Augustine.

• 28:02Andrea Gunning?

  Hearing the news, Carl just stared at the cops and he bit his lip, saying nothing. I asked Carl to take me back to that moment.

• 28:13Speaker 05

  I'm sitting there in the room like completely dumbfounded. My stomach hit the floor. Paul did it. He used the information he knew about my relationship with Adam and used all of that against me. I mean, it was like, just the weight.

• 28:34Speaker 05

  Everything is crashing down.

• 28:37Andrea Gunning?

  Carl left the station, with Drew at his side. The two of them walked through the parking lot in a daze.

• 28:44Speaker 05

  It didn't really hit me until we got to our cars. We both gave each other a hug and we were just like, oh, my God, I can't believe this.

• 28:54Andrea Gunning?

  Carl drove home feeling numb. That's when he got a notification, a message from Paul. Detectives had just stopped in to question Paul at work and they'd taken his phone into evidence.

• 29:06Speaker 05

  He messaged me on Facebook and was like, I'm just so shocked by everything that's happening right now. And I can't believe all these things that I'm being accused of. But I just want you to know that I'm not a stalker and I never have been or I ever will be. And that's just not me.

• 29:26Andrea Gunning?

  Carl ignored the message. He was in shock, trying to process everything he'd just learned. The concrete evidence he'd seen, tying his best friend to the crimes. But Paul was desperate to get ahold of him, to convince Carl this was all just one big misunderstanding. In Paul's frenzied attempt to reach him, Paul enlisted the one person who would always support him. His mother.

• 29:54Andrea Gunning?

  We don't know what Paul told her about the police investigation, but based on the voicemail she left Carl, it probably wasn't the truth.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  I will not contact you any further after leaving this message. I am with Paul. He is completely traumatized. He was interrogated by Kenosha Police Department this morning. They seized his phone and are accusing him of being a part of your harassment. We are in a world of panic and disbelief that this has come to this now where Paul is being accused of this stuff. I'm looking for clarity. Paul's looking for clarity. What is going on?

• 30:55Andrea Gunning?

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• 31:31Speaker 01

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder Card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through OnePay at onepay.com/podcast.

• 31:45Speaker 05

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• 32:16Speaker 04

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us, they're everywhere.

• 32:22Andrea Gunning?

  We think they're murder wantons.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  911 Nashville returns.

• 32:26Andrea Gunning?

  It's a homicide detective down here. Three bodies on the ground.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 32:32Andrea Gunning?

  Hell since swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville. Brian Phillippe, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 32:45Speaker 01

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• 33:19Andrea Gunning?

  Paul denied any involvement in harassing and tormenting Carl. But after seizing his phone, detectives had access to Paul's search history. Paul's Google searches read like a blueprint for the last year of chaos. Here are just some of his searches read by a voice actor.

• 33:38Speaker 07

  How can I send a text message and make it look like it came from someone else's phone number? Towing services that don't require you to be there? How to get revenge on someone without them knowing online? Ways you can fuck with someone without police? What are the chances of being caught spoofing?

• 33:58Andrea Gunning?

  Then there were the searches that targeted Drew. Paul conducted numerous searches for QuickTrip, the convenience store where Drew worked. He also searched...

• 34:08Speaker 07

  What will get you fired from QuickTrip?

• 34:11Andrea Gunning?

  You may recall, someone called the manager at the QuickTrip and complained that Drew had been behaving inappropriately with a minor, which wasn't true. Paul's search history connected the dots.

• 34:25Speaker 07

  How would someone frame someone for harassing a minor? How to get minors' names? A list of kids at Bradford High School.

• 34:34Andrea Gunning?

  There were also clues into how Paul tried to frame Adam.

• 34:37Speaker 07

  Best ways to get someone arrested. How to set someone up to go to jail. How to set someone up for a crime.

• 34:47Andrea Gunning?

  With the forensic phone evidence and the spoofing app report, detectives were finally ready to take action. What happened next was captured on police body cams. Some of the names have been redacted. On January 23rd, 2024, just before 5:00 PM, detectives George and Morrow knocked on Paul's door with a team of other officers.

• 35:13Andrea Gunning?

  No one answered, so Detective George knocked a little harder.

• 35:21Andrea Gunning?

  The door swung open, but no one had answered it. It hadn't been fully closed.

• 35:26Speaker 04

  Sheriff's Department! Okay, okay, one sec. I'll be right there. Okay, sorry, your door bounced open while I was knocking on it. I'm so sorry. That's okay. Can I put clothes on? You got shorts on? I'm like, I don't have clothes.

• 35:42Andrea Gunning?

  Paul called down from the top of the stairs. He was, in fact, only wearing pants, no shirt.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  Hi. Hi. I, I'm sorry. That's okay. I'm scared of me. Mind if I step in? I'm scared. Thanks. What, what's going on? Mind if I step in? I mean, kind of, yeah. Okay, can you come on, Tom, talk to me? Can I just put clothes on? Oh, you're fine, I don't mind. I don't have any clothes. I don't mind, you can sit down. I know, but I don't want to leave without clothes. You're not going anywhere. I'm scared. Who's going, Tom? You're not, you're safe. You're not gonna hurt me, are you? No, absolutely not. You've met, you know me. I, I know you, I just, I'm scared, I've never...

• 36:17Speaker 06

  Why are you scared, Paul?

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Okay, 'cause, 'cause cops are, I've never had this happen. Take a deep breath, you're okay. Can I at least put a shirt on, like, I...

• 36:25Speaker 06

  Here, I gotta come up there with you, all right?

• 36:27Speaker 04

  I'm nervous, and I want to let my mom know.

• 36:29Speaker 06

  But what's, uh, well, what's going on?

• 36:31Speaker 04

  I'm really, really scared.

• 36:33Speaker 06

  He was freaking out, and he had a really good way of acting scared. He's a victim, this is all BS. But it was crocodile tears.

• 36:43Andrea Gunning?

  After Detective Morrow escorted Paul through the process of getting a shirt on, the two of them came back downstairs and sat down at the kitchen table with Detective George.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Okay, so we just wanted to talk about, we're interested if you've had a chance to kind of think of anything, if anything else is...

• 37:00Speaker 05

  In regards to the whole...

• 37:01Speaker 04

  The whole incident?

• 37:03Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, that's why I've been in contact with a lawyer and such. But like, what was, but more specifically...

• 37:10Speaker 04

  If you've recalled anything, um...

• 37:12Speaker 05

  About the situation?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. Anything you think might be important.

• 37:16Speaker 05

  I mean, it's just been, it's been emotional. It's been, it's been hard because I don't consider myself, I mean, and I know, not even do I not consider myself, but I know that I'm not the one who initiated all of this, you know, that started any of this harassment. And then you guys showed up with my work, caught me off guard. I mean, I, I was offended by the fact that you guys kind of came at me in sort of an accusatory type of way.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  So, so you remember when I talked to you last time? I explained to you that, number one, we don't, we don't think you're a bad person. I know you're not a bad person. I know that this just kind of got out of control. I don't think that you meant to truly hurt anybody or to truly get anyone in trouble.

• 37:58Speaker 05

  No.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  Okay, I think maybe you just got a little bit carried away. Now that I've gone through your phone, I want to hear yours.

• 38:08Speaker 05

  I just, and I'm being totally respectful, you guys. Without a lawyer, like, I just, I do not feel comfortable going into the details of that. And I don't say that to be offensive. I don't say that to be rude to any of you guys. I hope you don't take it that way.

• 38:22Speaker 04

  I don't, I don't.

• 38:23Speaker 05

  I don't, I just don't feel comfortable at like, being interrogated about it. I mean, even for the phone, I like, I said I didn't consent right away to a search of the phone. You know, I said, like, you guys would have to go to warrant in order to do so, from what I recall.

• 38:37Speaker 04

  Which I did.

• 38:37Speaker 06

  Which we did.

• 38:38Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  And I found everything you've been doing?

• 38:44Speaker 05

  I don't know what to say.

• 38:45Speaker 04

  Okay. Is there anything that you would like me to know, just from your side of things?

• 38:51Speaker 05

  Like, I said, I don't want to comment on that stuff, I don't.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  All right, so take a deep breath, stand up, you're under arrest.

• 39:02Speaker 06

  Okay. Where are your shoes?

• 39:05Speaker 05

  Um, can I grab them?

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Yep, we'll get them for you.

• 39:07Speaker 06

  You're not gonna fight?

• 39:09Speaker 04

  No, of course not, I'm just scared. Take a deep breath. I don't want to be hurt. You are not gonna be hurt.

• 39:13Speaker 05

  Will I be able to eventually call my mom?

• 39:15Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 39:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's just right now you can't call her off anything but a jail phone.

• 39:19Speaker 05

  Do you know how it works in terms of like, bail or like...

• 39:23Speaker 06

  You're not gonna have a bail right now?

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 39:26Speaker 06

  It's felony offenses, so you're gonna see a judge tomorrow or the next day at about 1 o'clock, and then he will set some sort of bail for you.

• 39:35Speaker 04

  So we'll explain everything a little bit further to you in the car. I'm gonna have you face away, separate your feet.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  I thought that that's usually how it works, but I thought that someone can bail you out.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  Not when it's a felony.

• 39:44Speaker 05

  Ever, or...

• 39:45Speaker 04

  Not in Kenosha.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:49Andrea Gunning?

  While Detective George stayed with Paul in the house, Morrow went outside. Paul's mother Joan had just arrived.

• 39:57Speaker 06

  I'm Detective Morrow with the Kenosha County Sheriff's Department. My partner Detective George and a couple other officers are inside [BLEEP] right now, okay?

• 40:04Speaker 04

  Can I go in?

• 40:04Speaker 06

  Uh, not right now. He's gonna be coming out, he is in custody with us.

• 40:08Speaker 04

  Oh, God.

• 40:09Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 40:09Speaker 04

  What for?

• 40:10Speaker 06

  Um, he's gonna have quite a bit of charges, just stay right here with me real quick. He, he'll be able to call you when he gets down to our jail, okay?

• 40:18Speaker 04

  Will he be able to be bonded out?

• 40:20Speaker 06

  Not tonight.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Mom, they said they can't bail me out.

• 40:23Andrea Gunning?

  Just then, Paul came out of the house in handcuffs with a team of cops all around him.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  Can I give him a hug?

• 40:32Speaker 06

  George, George, are you okay if she gives him a hug real quick?

• 40:36Andrea Gunning?

  Paul's mom briefly wrapped her arms around Paul's shoulders. Then, the police led him away.

• 40:42Speaker 04

  Mom! Please, I, I... Am I ever gonna get bailed out? I'm gonna do every single thing I can. I thought I could get bailed out! Paul, just breathe, breathe, breathe, honey.

• 40:56Speaker 04

  My reflection on his behavior during the arrest is that he, he wasn't, you know, scared of law enforcement, or he was scared of facing the consequences of what he had done.

• 41:07Speaker 06

  Everything with him was calculated to a T. So I'm sure he had it in the back of his mind, if I'm caught, this is how I'm gonna act. And he did it well. He's very good at the manipulation and putting on some sort of show to make him the victim.

• 41:24Andrea Gunning?

  Detectives calmly placed Paul in the backseat. They buckled his seatbelt and warmed up the car while they spoke with Paul's mom.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  I kind of comforted her, explained that he's gonna be safe. Here's where he's going, here's what's happening. Oh, my God.

• 41:42Speaker 04

  I'm sorry that... I feel like I died.

• 41:45Speaker 06

  I feel like I died. I feel like I'm good, along with him.

• 41:51Speaker 06

  The mom was so hell-bent that there's no way he could have done this. No way in hell he would do this.

• 42:00Andrea Gunning?

  Afterwards, everyone was left with the same question. Why? Why did Paul do this to his best friend? Detectives had a theory about Paul's motive. They asked him about it back when they questioned him at work.

• 42:17Speaker 06

  Why would you do this?

• 42:19Speaker 05

  I mean, why are you accusing me of?

• 42:20Speaker 06

  Are you in love with? Do you love him?

• 42:23Speaker 05

  I mean, well, as a friend, yes.

• 42:25Speaker 06

  Yeah. Do you have any, any feelings towards him in any other way?

• 42:29Speaker 05

  Not, I mean, at one point, maybe like we both had feelings for each other a little bit. But I mean, like I told you earlier, like never progressed into anything.

• 42:38Speaker 06

  Do you wish it ever did?

• 42:40Speaker 05

  Not, especially with all this drama. No, not.

• 42:43Speaker 06

  Well, what about like before this drama?

• 42:45Speaker 05

  At one point, maybe, but no, not anymore. Not at this time.

• 42:51Andrea Gunning?

  In so many cases, the question of motive goes unanswered. But that wouldn't be true in Paul's case, because there was one more piece of evidence that would soon come to light.

• 43:02Speaker 05

  Just one thing. And I would, I would tell the same thing to anyone. You have to prove to me you're not recording me.

• 43:11Andrea Gunning?

  A four-hour recording where Paul explained what he did and why he did it.

• 43:17Speaker 05

  I was just like, I'll be damned if they're gonna like be happy.

• 43:21Andrea Gunning?

  It was all captured on camera, and Paul had no idea.

• 43:27Speaker 05

  I'm not pleading guilty. That's for fucking sure.

• 43:33Andrea Gunning?

  That's next time on Betrayal. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email us at [email protected]. That is [email protected]. Or follow us on Instagram at BetrayalPod or me at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners.

• 44:14Andrea Gunning?

  Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Carrie Hartman and Kaitlin Golden. Our story editor is Monique LaBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our production manager is Kristen Mulcory. Our associate producer is Lea Jablow. Additional support by Curry Richmond and Olivia Hewitt. Our iHeart team is Ally Perry and Jessica Krychek. Audio editing and voice acting by Tanner Robbins. Mixing and mastering by Matt Delvecchio, with additional editing by Dean Welsh. And special thanks to Carl Bryan, Adam Mejia,

• 44:57Andrea Gunning?

  Matt Rolsey, and their communities. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MyB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:17Andrea Gunning?

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• 45:53Speaker 01

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Builder Card results may vary and aren't guaranteed. Learn more about banking through OnePay at onepay.com/podcast.

• 46:07Speaker 02

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• 48:15Andrea Gunning?

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