Serial Killers & Murderous Minds Meets Betrayal | Ed Kemper Part 1 | BONUS

In a special collaboration episode, Andrea Gunning joins Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Engels on Serial Killers & Murderous Minds to break down the crimes of Ed Kemper, who murdered at least six young women who accepted rides from him while hitchhiking in the 1970s. His violence traced back to a childhood marked by abuse, abandonment, and early cruelty toward animals and family. After killing his grandparents at 15 and years in a psychiatric facility, Kemper returned to society having learned exactly how to manipulate the people meant to stop him, including the doctors evaluating him. To hear more, follow Serial Killers & Murderous Minds:https://pod.link/1769285458 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat with flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment. Get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  ChatGPT for Teens is designed to help teens learn, think critically, and grow their skills. ChatGPT for Teens supports active learning by breaking concepts down. Rather than giving teens the answer, study mode helps teens work through problems, and interactive quizzes test their knowledge and provide immediate feedback. Safety protections are on by default, and parental controls offer families additional options like setting study hours and quiet hours. Visit chatgpt.comPARENTS to learn more.

• 1:02Speaker 03

  This is Ashley Conetti from the Ben and Ashley I Almost Famous Podcast. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump, glowing skin. That's right, 100 hours. It's a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin, it's allergy-tested, and fragrance-free. So try Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Hey, everyone. Andrea here. You know, I spend most of my time on Betrayal Weekly, digging into stories of broken trust and the damage it leaves behind. So when the team at Serial Killers: Murderous Minds asked me to guest on a deep dive into Ed Kemper, I jumped at it. This is a case I know well. A few years back, I worked on a documentary called Kemper on Kemper, sitting with the psychology of one of the most notorious killers in American history. Today, I'm sharing that episode with you. I joined hosts Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels to get into Kemper's story, a childhood defined by ridicule, the rage that festered

• 2:20Speaker 00

  underneath, and the six young women he murdered in 1970s California before he turned on the person who tormented him most, his own mother. A heads up before we start, this episode contains discussion of rape, murder, negrophilia, and animal violence. Please listen with care. Here's part one. For part two of the episode, including a discussion between me, Vanessa, and Dr. Engels, follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 2:57Speaker 04

  This is Crime House.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Some people have a keen sense of human nature. They understand people's motives, fears, and behavioral patterns. Many use that trait for good. They show their loved ones support, set their employees up for success, or simply avoid anyone with toxic tendencies. At the same time, some use their people skills for selfish reasons. They get a sense of someone's tendencies and exploit them, whether it's for money, sex, their own personal validation, or something else. Ed Kemper was one of those people, except he didn't just use others to get ahead. He used them to commit some of the most shocking crimes America has ever seen and reshaped what we thought we knew about the killer mind.

• 3:57Speaker 05

  The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love, and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  And I'm forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels. And for the next two episodes, Vanessa and I are thrilled to welcome a very special guest, Andrea Gunning, host of the Betrayal Weekly podcast.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.

• 4:27Speaker 05

  Of course. We're happy to have you. We're thrilled. For everyone listening, if you're not following Betrayal Weekly, make sure to go do it now. Every week, Andrea shares firsthand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. It's an absolute must-listen, and I make sure to catch every episode.

• 4:46Speaker 06

  Same here. Andrea, we love how you approach your cases, and we are especially excited to have you on for these episodes because you worked on a documentary on Ed Kemper called Kemper on Kemper.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Yes, that's right. I work for Glass Entertainment Group, and we produced a documentary for Oxygen a few years back about Ed Kemper called Kemper on Kemper. And we unpacked his crimes through his own perspective, using his own words from his interviews with law enforcement.

• 5:14Speaker 05

  Amazing. We can't wait to get your insights on this case over the next two episodes. Andrea will introduce you to Ed Kemper. Then be sure to stick around at the end of Part Two for an extended conversation between Andrea and Dr. Engels as they break down what makes this case so fascinating and absolutely terrifying. Before I hand it off, I want to mention that Crime House exists because of listeners like you. Want even more? Join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for Part Two. Plus, Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com. Or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap "Try Free" at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  As we get started, be advised that this episode contains discussion of rape, murder, necrophilia, and animal violence, so please listen with care. Today, Vanessa and Dr. Engels begin their deep dive into Ed Kemper, one of the most notorious serial killers in American history. In 1970s California, Ed murdered at least six young female hitchhikers, until finally turning his rage on the person who tormented him most: his own mother. And as Vanessa goes through the story, Dr. Engels will be talking about things like why a childhood defined by ridicule can manifest in violence, how incarceration in early adulthood can impact development,

• 6:41Speaker 00

  why some killers use complex postmortem rituals to prolong the thrill. And as always, they'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

• 6:56Speaker 05

  Violence was ingrained in Ed Kemper from the moment he came into the world. He was born in Burbank, California on December 18, 1948. His father, Edmund Kemper II, was a World War II Special Forces combat veteran who went on to work as an electrician. His mother, Clarinelle, stayed home to care for Ed and his two sisters, Alan and Susan. Ed's dad was his hero. He reveled in his war stories, including the ones about how he killed enemy soldiers. Edmund thought it was good for his son to hear those things. He believed he was teaching him how to be a man. But Clarinelle disapproved. In fact, there wasn't much she agreed with her husband on.

• 7:38Speaker 05

  She often berated Edmund for bringing home such a meager salary. She desperately longed for a better life, and she used alcohol to cope with the fact that she didn't have it. Clarinelle's drinking fueled her and Edmund's fights, and his behavior wasn't much better. He often stormed out in a huff and wouldn't return for days. When he wasn't around, Clarinelle was especially harsh toward Ed. Whenever she lost her temper, she beat him viciously. In Ed's mind, it was her way of taking out her anger toward his dad.

• 8:10Speaker 06

  Children learn how to communicate, express their emotions, and treat others through what's modeled to them from their caregivers. It's what we call social learning theory. And Ed is growing up in an extremely volatile environment, so he's not getting the best model of this. And the conflict in his home is not just between his parents or interparental, it's being displaced onto him as well. This environment can also create deficits with attachment. This is always critical to consider when the people a child is meant to depend on for safety and stability are also the source of harm or distress. Living in an environment like this for a prolonged period of time without any stabilizing adult can affect how Ed approaches trust,

• 8:53Speaker 06

  intimacy, and emotional regulation. Now, Ed, thinking that his mother was taking her anger out on him, makes sense. He's a child who has been hearing and observing. His parents' conflict for years. Children often personalize interparental conflict because they don't have the cognitive and emotional maturity to fully understand the complexities of adult relationships, or in this case, the impact alcohol can have on his mother's judgment or her behavior. He's simply trying to understand why he's being punished, and so he's using the information that's available to him. But if he comes to believe that he is being punished for problems that exist between his parents, that can create resentment in multiple areas.

• 9:34Speaker 06

  Resentment toward his mother for hurting him, resentment toward his father for not protecting him, and resentment toward relationships in general if they repeatedly become associated with pain, conflict, or instability.

• 9:47Speaker 05

  By growing up in this kind of household, do you think Ed was forced to bottle up his emotions? And if he was, how could that have impacted him in the long run?

• 9:55Speaker 06

  I don't know if he was necessarily forced to bottle up his emotions, but he did later say that he felt powerless. Children who grow up in explosive or unpredictable households like this often internalize the belief that expressing certain emotions isn't safe for them. And if a parent is unpredictable or abusive, children tend to stop expressing emotions because they're either ignored, punished for it, or escalate a conflict somehow. They don't understand what will set off their unpredictable caregiver, and their caregiver doesn't always communicate the connection between the punishment and the behavior. So the child learns to shrink themselves to avoid being responsible for their reaction.

• 10:38Speaker 06

  So instead, many children become hyper vigilant. They start reading the room and monitoring the moods of others. And then pretty soon, they've spent most of their time focused on surviving their environment. They've never learned to understand their own feelings, and that can create difficulties with their own emotional regulation. And if you've never learned to express your emotions, they don't just disappear, they often build up, and that often leads to expressing them later in unhealthy ways.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  Well, eventually, Clarinelle and Edmund divorced. But for Ed, the psychological damage was already done. He was nine years old when they separated, and he felt completely abandoned by his father, the only person in the world who understood him. And when he and his mom and siblings moved to Helena, Montana, Ed started showing some dark tendencies. His resentment quickly morphed into something more sinister. Ed started experiencing violent, elaborate fantasies, which he couldn't help but act on. When no one was looking, he stole his sister's dolls and removed their heads. And as he stared down at their small, disfigured bodies, he felt a sense of sexual enjoyment. Soon, Ed was chasing the thrill.

• 11:53Speaker 05

  He didn't just want to dismember dolls. He wanted to cause real feelings of torture. So he set his sights on the family cat. One day, Ed buried the animal alive. And later, he dug its body back up and decapitated it. Afterward, Ed realized how much he enjoyed the act of killing. It didn't even need to be elaborate for him to gain a sense of pleasure, like on another occasion when he shot and killed the neighbor's dog. Everyone who knew Ed found his entire demeanor disturbing, including his sisters. They saw him as a troubling nuisance. As a way to toy with him, they once pushed him into a swimming pool, even though they knew he couldn't swim. Ed managed to get out safely, and he wanted revenge.

• 12:38Speaker 05

  One day, as he cleaned his rifle in the living room, Alan walked in. When Ed saw her, he immediately fired his gun in her direction, hitting the wall behind her. Ed pretended it was an accident. Eventually, Clarinelle had enough of Ed's behavior. She was afraid he'd hurt his sisters at night while they slept. So she set up a cot in the basement and forced Ed to sleep down there. She even locked the door so he couldn't get out. Ed was furious at his mother for doing that to him, and his anger was worsened by the fact that she openly mocked him. Clarinelle made fun of Ed for not having any friends. She told him no girl would ever be interested in him.

• 13:20Speaker 06

  Ed appears to be a child who is repeatedly experiencing fear, humiliation, and powerlessness, and then responding in increasingly alarming and dangerous ways. But arguably, pushing him into a pool when he couldn't swim, and then walking away, is alarming too. But with Ed's behaviors, what's also concerning is the response he gets in return. Every time he's engaging in these alarming behaviors, he doesn't seem to be taught healthier ways to regulate the emotions that drove those behaviors to begin with. Instead, he's met with more isolation, more rejection, and more humiliation. Being forced to sleep in a locked basement may have solved an immediate safety concern, at least on the surface,

• 14:05Speaker 06

  but there's nothing to address the actual behaviors themselves. There's no conversation to understand why he did what he did. Locking him in the basement just further isolated him and likely alienated him or made him feel less valued, especially if his sisters received no punishment for their behavior toward him. Then on top of that, his mother mocks him, tells him he has no friends, and that no girl will ever want him. That's psychological abuse, and that can compound. And if she's doing this in front of his sisters or with his sisters, then he's continued to feel rejected by his entire family system just after he was humiliated by his sisters in the pool. These experiences, especially if consistent,

• 14:49Speaker 06

  can build resentment, shame, and loneliness over time. Again, no one seems to be helping Ed understand or manage what he's feeling. Everyone is reacting to his behavior, and understandably, because again, it's concerning, it's very alarming. But no one appears to be addressing the behavior itself or the emotions underneath it.

• 15:11Speaker 05

  In general, what can happen in the brain when a child feels unloved and unwanted by their parents?

• 15:17Speaker 06

  In general, the brain can begin interpreting feeling unloved, unwanted, or chronically rejected as a threat to safety and survival. Prolonged stress can keep the body's threat detection system activated more often than it's supposed to be, making a child more hypervigilant and sensitive to signs of rejection, criticism, or danger. And it can also affect areas of the brain involved in emotional regulation, decision-making, and memory. For example, chronic stress has been associated with a more reactive amygdala, which is involved in fear and emotional processing. It's associated with changes in the hippocampus, which plays a role in memory, to name a few. Of course, it can get much deeper than that, but those are just the broad strokes.

• 16:02Speaker 06

  Not every child will experience these changes, and none of this determines their outcome. But this is an example, in general, of how chronic, prolonged stress can affect a developing brain.

• 16:14Speaker 05

  By the time Ed was 14, he couldn't take it anymore. He wanted to get far away from his mother. So on Thanksgiving Day, 1963, he stole her car and drove it to Butte, Montana, before catching a bus to his father's house in Van Nuys, California. Ed was hoping to move in with his dad and be free of his mom for good. But when he got there, he was in for a rude awakening. His father had remarried, and his new wife didn't want Ed living with them. So his dad drove him to his paternal grandparents' farmhouse. Grandpa Ed and Grandma Maude took him in. It seemed like a fresh start for Ed, but not everyone was happy about it. When Clarinelle learned what happened, she berated her ex-husband.

• 16:59Speaker 05

  She told him about how Ed had killed their cat and the neighbor's dog. Then she said Ed would kill his grandparents eventually. Clarinelle's warnings fell on deaf ears. And within weeks, Ed developed the same rage toward Maude that he felt toward his mother. Not only was Maude extremely strict and refused to let him socialize with other kids, but she openly complained about how much it cost to take care of him. Ed's grandfather was more sympathetic. He knew being a young man growing up on a farm wasn't easy. So for Christmas, he gifted Ed a 22-caliber rifle to occupy his time. He thought Ed could practice shooting small game on the property.

• 17:42Speaker 05

  Ed was ecstatic. For months, he killed whatever animals he crossed paths with, but his grandparents were disturbed by all the carcasses he left behind. So they briefly took the gun away. However, Ed talked his grandfather into giving it back, which turned out to be a tragic mistake. On August 27, 1964, Maude sat at the dining room table, writing on her typewriter. She had no idea 15-year-old Ed was standing behind her, or that he'd aimed his rifle directly at her. Without warning, Ed pulled the trigger three times, hitting his grandmother in the back and head. She died instantly.

• 18:26Speaker 05

  Afterward, Ed grabbed a knife from the kitchen and stabbed her several times. Suddenly, Ed noticed his grandfather's truck pulling up to the house. He couldn't bear the thought of his grandfather seeing what he'd done. So he snuck up behind him and shot him in the head. Immediately afterward, Ed knew what he'd done was wrong, and that he needed help. So he turned to an unlikely source: his mother. He sobbed into the receiver, admitting to his actions, and Clarnell called the police. When they arrived, Ed was sitting on the front porch, waiting for them. Even though he knew what he'd done was wrong, that didn't mean he felt bad about it.

• 19:05Speaker 05

  He told officers, quote, "I just wanted to see what it felt like to kill Grandma."

• 19:12Speaker 06

  I just want to highlight that learning that his father had a new family and that he wasn't welcome there once he got there was another rejection for him. And that's important, and it's not something to gloss over. Now, when Ed says he wanted to see what it felt like to kill his grandmother, I think that represents a detachment from understanding, at least psychologically, the gravity of the act, especially if he has spent a long time fantasizing about it. Fantasy-driven offenders fantasize for a significant amount of time before they act. And because of that, they can become so focused on curiosity, experimentation, or Rehearsal that they rarely focus on appreciating the reality of their fantasy in

• 19:56Speaker 06

  practice, or they've already been practicing on animals and there are no real consequences that they can transfer to this experience. And I think because of that, he had to confront the reality of what he had done and faced real consequences for the first time in his life. But what I find especially interesting in this moment is that after he kills his grandparents, he then calls his mother. Despite all resentment and conflict, she's still his mother. Children don't simply stop needing their parents, even if their relationship with them is unhealthy. He didn't call his father, he called her. In moments of crisis, it's actually very common for people to reach for familiar attachment figures.

• 20:40Speaker 05

  What do you think it says about Ed that he confessed so quickly? I mean, he just sat there waiting and he said, I, you know, I did it. I just wanted to see what it felt like. Do you think it's possible that the entire incident was maybe just a cry for help?

• 20:52Speaker 06

  A cry for help usually implies that the person consciously intended for someone to intervene before something happened. And I don't know that that's what this is. I think that it's true that Ed was at a breaking point throughout his childhood. He's repeatedly experienced conflict, rejection, humiliation, isolation, and increasingly concerning behavior, which you've highlighted for us. But then, after killing his parents, he calls his mother for directions. She calls the police and tells him to wait for them. He listens. In this moment, like we talked about, the weight of the reality setting in, Ed is a teenager and the only place he has to go is back with his mother. His father wasn't going to accept

• 21:36Speaker 06

  him. So it's possible, and again, this is speculation, because I've never evaluated Ed myself, but it's possible that he chose to confess to his mother and follow her directions because he knew she was his only practical and realistic option in that moment. And if you recall from his childhood, we've talked about how children who grow up with unpredictable and volatile parents sometimes learn that obedience

• 22:01Speaker 06

  compliance or appeasement can help them navigate those relationships more safely. So confessing and following her instructions could be a reflection of that, especially because he depends on her heavily right now. He doesn't know what's going to happen after the police get there. That's what his mother is for. And at the end of the day, he's a teenager with no money, no resources and nowhere else to go.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  Whether or not Ed regretted what he'd done, he certainly regretted where it landed him. Because he was just 15 at the time of the murders, he wasn't charged as an adult. But clearly, the court saw something was deeply wrong with him. So instead, he was found to be mentally ill and committed to the Atascadero State Hospital for the Criminally Insane, which housed and treated around 1,600 mentally ill prisoners. The remaining years of Ed's young adulthood would now be spent among violent criminals and sex offenders. And he planned to learn everything he could from them.

• 23:05Speaker 05

  In 1964, 15-year-old Ed Kemper was sent to Atascadero State Hospital for the Criminally Insane after killing his grandparents. When he arrived, Ed underwent a series of psychological evaluations. At first, he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. But Ed's doctors were also fascinated to discover he had an unusually high IQ. And as they ran more tests, they began to question their diagnosis. Ed didn't show signs of delusions or hallucinations like they expected. He didn't show any evidence of unusual thought patterns either. So they struggled to form a clear understanding of his mind's inner workings. But Ed was learning a lot about them.

• 23:47Speaker 05

  Throughout all the tests, he paid close attention to the terminology doctors used. He also noticed that the more interest he showed in his own mental health, the more they explained to him. And eventually, he earned their trust. Ed's doctors enlisted his help testing other patients. He even helped develop new tests. To the doctors, this was a major sign of rehabilitation. In reality, Ed had figured out what doctors needed to hear to deem someone fit to rejoin society. He memorized all the right responses. And eventually, he tricked his doctors into believing he was well enough to leave. In 1969, when Ed was 21, he was officially released on parole after five years at the hospital.

• 24:32Speaker 05

  But even after his release, he wasn't totally free because he had no choice but to move back in with his mother, Claire Nell. Ed's mom had moved to California. She worked at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She was even more resentful toward him now that he was a convicted murderer and had killed their own family members. Ed tried to find a silver lining to his new living situation. In the early 1970s, the oceanfront community was a hub for college students, hippies, and surfers. The free-spirited, liberated lifestyle was the total opposite of what Ed had just experienced for the last five years. Ed did his best to adapt, but he didn't have much of a social life.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  His main goal was to become a police officer. At the mental hospital, he'd enjoyed having even just a little power over the other patients. So he chased that feeling. He started going to local police hangouts to chat them up and try and get into their good graces. Ed felt like he had a shot at becoming an officer because his juvenile records were sealed. However, things didn't go his way. He was denied because he exceeded the height and weight limits. Ed was massive. He stood at 6'9", weighing nearly 300 pounds. And his appearance didn't just cost him jobs, it made dating even more difficult. Sometimes women got startled or even screamed when they saw him, simply because of his size.

• 25:59Speaker 05

  It made Ed feel like he wasn't even human.

• 26:04Speaker 06

  If Ed has spent years being rejected and humiliated and mocked by his mother, who repeatedly told him that no woman would ever want him, and if he's experienced similar ridicule from his sisters, then this can feel like cumulative rejection. And that's especially concerning when you pair it with his interest in power and his history of violence. That's a risky combination because healthy relationships require vulnerability, consent, and an understanding of autonomy. Power, on the other hand, something that he's interested in, can allow someone to believe that they can bypass all of those things, leaving no room for perceived rejection or humiliation. And as always, my caveats.

• 26:49Speaker 06

  This doesn't mean that rejection causes violence. Millions of people experience romantic rejection and never become violent. But when rejection is layered on top of years of humiliation, social isolation, resentment, and a history of violent behavior and antisocial behavior, it can become another risk factor that compounds what's already there.

• 27:13Speaker 05

  How do you think he would have reacted to the fact that the thing preventing him from getting his dream job, his size, was the same thing affecting his dating life?

• 27:22Speaker 06

  I think this could have been especially difficult for Ed because it may have felt like his mother was right. I mean, remember, his mother repeatedly taunted him and told him that women would never want him. Then, if he's struggling in his dating life and simultaneously being told that his size is preventing him from pursuing his dream career, that can be triggering a core belief in him that can create a tremendous amount of resentment because now he's not only angry at his mother for saying those things in the first place, he's potentially angry that his own experiences seem to be confirming them. And if he believes all of this is tied to something that he can't control, which is your size, you have absolutely no control over that,

• 28:04Speaker 06

  that can also create a sense of powerlessness because it's an obstacle that feels out of his control. So imagine what that can create.

• 28:14Speaker 05

  Well, instead of focusing his energy on dating, Ed looked for another job. He eventually got hired as a construction worker with the Division of Highways, which he seemed to like. He was still new to the area, and it helped him become familiar with the roadways. Plus, he was making his own money for the first time. He saved up enough to rent his own apartment and buy a yellow 1969 Ford Galaxy, which he used to get away from clairvoyant as much as possible. Pretty soon, Ed realized that having a car could be his ticket to meeting more women, too. This was not only the era of hitchhiking, but there were several colleges in the area. So a lot of pretty, young women were out on the roads looking for a ride. Ed started picking up female hitchhikers.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  He'd drive them as far as the Oregon border, hundreds of miles away. He didn't do anything other than try and strike up conversation and maybe flirt a little, but none of the girls seemed interested. But they did give him insight into how women perceived him. For example, he learned that the short, cop-like hairstyle he had was considered uncool and made girls feel suspicious of him. So he grew it out, along with a mustache to give himself more of a hippie look. And he added a pair of round glasses to seem a little studious. Ed's makeover seemed to work. By his own estimate, around 1,000 hitchhikers took rides from him. He studied each encounter, but he wasn't just hoping to improve his dating skills.

• 29:41Speaker 05

  After he dropped women off, Ed fantasized about what he wished he'd done to them. He'd been experiencing the urge to sexually assault someone, and it was becoming harder to fight. But given his size and his bold car, Ed knew he'd be easy to identify. He had to find a way to leave behind no witnesses. And in his mind, the only way to do that was to "kill" his victims. Ed's stay at the mental institution did nothing to quell his murderous rage. Over time, he prepared for his first attack. He packed plastic bags, knives, and handcuffs in his trunk. Then he started driving women off course to remote areas to see if they'd notice.

• 30:24Speaker 05

  Eventually, Ed realized how unfamiliar many people were with the area. And once he felt ready, he bought a gun and stashed it in his car.

• 30:34Speaker 06

  Ed essentially conducted a long-term experiment with women. And according to what you described, he's given rides to around 1,000 women. That's quite a bit of social data collected on how women responded to him, what made them comfortable, what made them uncomfortable, how to present himself, how to lower suspicion. And we've Actually seen this pattern before. At a Tascadero State Hospital. He observed his surroundings closely. He appeared to learn how professionals thought, what they looked for, and what to say and do to get discharged. Here, we see much of the same. He's learning how women think and what behaviors make him seem safe and trustworthy. Ed is intelligent. He's organized, calculated,

• 31:19Speaker 06

  and skilled at adapting him to whatever environment. He studies people, tests situations, gathers information, and adjusts his behavior until he's ready. Think of all the women that he offered rides to that he did not kill, but probably wanted to. That suggests a degree of control. Only, you can't accurately detect his intentions, which is exactly what he wants. You would just never know.

• 31:47Speaker 05

  What does it say about Ed that he could figure out how to blend in and seem non-threatening? Does this support his former doctor's belief that he was highly intelligent? And do you think that tricking his doctors helped him know he could get away with all this?

• 32:01Speaker 06

  We talked about how children who grow up in unpredictable environments often become very good at adapting and reading the room because it can help them anticipate conflict and navigate difficult relationships. Only with Ed, this is no longer serving a protective function for him. He's using those skills for personal gain and deception, and ultimately to harm others, which is much more consistent with psychopathic traits and predatory behavior. Obviously, as a reminder, psychopathy is not a diagnosis. It's a personality construct comprised of interpersonal affective and behavioral traits. And the traits that best describe this behavior that allow Ed to blend in and seem so non-threatening are instrumental use of others,

• 32:46Speaker 06

  manipulation, superficial charm, callousness or lack of empathy, predatory orientation and deception. And all of these things make him such a good chameleon.

• 33:00Speaker 05

  Well, in the spring of 1972, Ed was ready to strike. Around 4:00 PM on May 7th, the 23-year-old cruised around Berkeley looking for his prey. Soon, he came across two Fresno State College roommates, Mary Ann Pesci and Anita Luquesa. They were both 18 and had been visiting friends at UC Berkeley. Now, they wanted to hitch a ride to Stanford about 40 miles away. Anita was 5'1" with sun-bleached hair and gold-rimmed glasses. Mary Ann was the same height with dark hair and blue eyes. She'd hitchhiked across Europe before, so she was much more experienced than Anita. And when Ed pulled up, she felt hesitant. Something seemed off about him.

• 33:43Speaker 05

  But eventually, the two got in his car. Anita in the front seat, Mary Ann in the back. It would be at least an hour-long drive to their destination, so Ed had plenty of opportunities to travel through remote stretches of terrain. He even asked them questions about the area, to see how familiar they were with their surroundings. But as two teenagers knew the town without cars of their own, they were out of their depths. About 30 minutes into their drive, he brought them out to a secluded road near the city of Hayward. Then, Ed turned on them. He flashed a 9mm Browning Automatic Pistol and handcuffed Mary Ann to a seatbelt. He then tied up Anita and told her to get in the trunk.

• 34:25Speaker 05

  She begged him not to hurt them, and Ed slammed the trunk door shut. Returning to Mary Ann, he put a plastic bag over her head and tried to asphyxiate her with a terry cloth belt. Despite being bound and outweighed by nearly 200 pounds, Mary Ann fought viciously. She chewed through the bag and maneuvered the belt from her neck to her mouth, cutting it with her teeth. In a fury, Ed stabbed her repeatedly. Shocked at how she could survive so many stab wounds, he finally slit her throat.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  Ed was shocked at what he'd just done. He looked at his hands and they were completely covered in blood. Anita heard everything from inside the trunk. And once it was over, Ed opened up the trunk and attacked her too. Just like Mary Ann, she put up a vicious fight. But in the end, Ed took Anita's life as well. Afterward, he put Mary Ann's body in the trunk alongside Anita's. He started driving home when suddenly he noticed police lights flashing behind him. He pulled over, the officer approached. He told Ed his taillight was out. Anita must have kicked it. As the officer got closer, Ed was sure he'd noticed blood splatter in the backseat

• 35:46Speaker 05

  or on his hands. He prepared to grab his knife and stab the officer next. But the officer didn't notice anything amiss. He sent Ed on his way with two bodies in his trunk.

• 36:00Speaker 06

  I touched on this concept briefly, but it's a great place to elaborate. For years, Ed had been fantasizing, planning, and then behaviorally rehearsing these crimes. But fantasy and reality are two very different experiences. In fantasy, it's always going to go exactly how he wants it to. Otherwise, it's not a fantasy. Rarely do they factor in realistic scenarios, like attempted escape, for example. The fact that he seemed shocked by the amount of blood and by how much resistance he got suggests just that. It could also be psychologically revealing that he targeted two victims rather than one. We know he spent years learning how to lower suspicion and working on ways to perfect that.

• 36:44Speaker 06

  So he's become increasingly confident in his ability to control situations. It's possible he simply felt confident and capable of managing the two of them, especially when you consider the messages that he's internalized with regard to his size and the strength that comes with that. At the same time, it could have simply been a matter of opportunity. He'd been building up to this moment. He had his gun ready and he was not willing to wait any longer. So when he encountered Mary Ann and Anita, he decided to act on it. But what's especially concerning, though, is what happens afterward. Despite being seemingly shocked, he very quickly shifts into problem-solving mode. He continues driving, he starts thinking about how not to get caught,

• 37:28Speaker 06

  and he even prepares to kill a police officer if necessary, which is a very similar behavioral sequence after he killed his grandmother. He shot her, he heard his grandfather coming home, made a decision to kill him, killed him, then continued in problem-solving mode by calling his mother and then following her directions. So to me, this moment after killing Mary Ann and Anita is one of the more psychologically revealing moments because it shows how rapidly Ed can compartmentalize and then prioritize self-preservation, especially because of what comes next, which is perhaps the more gratifying part of this process for him.

• 38:07Speaker 05

  Ed had committed the unspeakable, and behind closed doors, his behavior was about to become even more disturbing.

• 38:23Speaker 05

  In May of 1972, 23-year-old Ed Kemper murdered two college women, Mary Ann Pesci and Anita Luquesa. The pair had been hitchhiking when Ed picked them up. Afterward, he put both bodies in the trunk of his car and drove home. And Ed wasn't done with them. At his apartment, he dismembered and decapitated both the victims, mirroring his childhood when he used to remove the heads from his sister's dolls. Then he sexually assaulted both bodies. He took Polaroid photos while he did it, which he then stored in plastic bags in his closet. Ed kept his victims' remains in his home overnight, but he knew the neighbors would eventually smell the decomposition.

• 39:07Speaker 05

  So the next morning, he placed them back into his car and drove to Loma Prieta, the highest peak in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There, he scattered the women's remains in the forest, keeping mental notes of where he left them. That way, he could come back and relive everything he'd done. However, Ed hadn't disposed of all the remains. He kept both victims' heads in his apartment as a souvenir.

• 39:34Speaker 06

  Necrophilia is a profound sexual attraction to or desire to engage in sexual acts with a corpse. It exists on a spectrum, ranging from mild to severe, and Ed falls on the severe end of that spectrum. Individuals who engage in these acts are often seeking a partner who is unresisting, incapable of rejecting them, and entirely under their control. Now, I want to be very careful here because none of what I'm about to discuss causes necrophilia or in any way excuses any of what Ed has done. Millions of people experience difficult childhoods, disrupted attachments, family conflict, rejection, or even institutionalization, and never develop these behaviors. Human behavior is far too complex

• 40:19Speaker 06

  to draw a straight line from one life experience to one particular outcome. But what these experiences can do is provide context. Through Ed's life, we've repeatedly seen themes of him feeling rejected, humiliated, and powerless with disrupted attachments and difficulty-forming relationships. We've talked about his mother and his sisters and the taunting in the home, his relationship with his grandmother being similar to his mother, and the fact that he spent many of his formative adolescent years at Atascadero State Hospital during a time when many teenagers are developing age-appropriate social and romantic experiences. And now, he's continuing to experience rejection from peers, and he has emerging psychopathy traits.

• 41:04Speaker 06

  Again, none of these experiences explain or excuse his behavior, but when we step back... And we look at the broader picture, we can begin to see why themes like control, fantasy fulfillment and possession repeatedly emerge throughout his crimes. A corpse cannot reject him, humiliate him, criticize him, or leave him. It offers a level of control that simply doesn't exist in any healthy human relationship.

• 41:32Speaker 05

  Okay, I have to ask, why do you think Ed kept his victims' heads? And why do you think he took photos as he violated their corpses? What can we glean about the way he seemed to be documenting things and keeping souvenirs?

• 41:45Speaker 06

  This is likely trophy collection. Trophy collection is primarily about reliving the fantasy, allowing them to mentally replay every aspect of it as many times as they want for their own gratification. It can be about possessing the victims, allowing them to extend their control and dominance over them, or it can be about a validation of power, similar to a hunter with taxidermy, or it can be a way of building a ritual. And if you think about Ed's history of rejection, then this is likely about possession and his distorted way of maintaining a connection to his victims, but on his terms.

• 42:22Speaker 05

  As Ed enjoyed the high of his gruesome acts, Mary Ann and Anita's families did everything imaginable to find them. They filed police reports, put up flyers, and even hired private detectives. But at the time, California was rampant with hitchhikers or other young travelers who police considered runaways. No one except Ed had any idea what a horrific end Mary Ann and Anita had faced, but that was about to change. Months passed, and Mary Ann and Anita's heads had decomposed. All that was left was their skulls. Eventually, he decided to get rid of them in the mountains. And in August of 1972, some hitchhikers found Mary Ann's.

• 43:06Speaker 05

  Police used dental records to identify her. And in August of 1972, some hikers found Mary Ann's. Police used dental records to identify her. And now, authorities and the victims' families realized the nightmarish reality. It was clear that Mary Ann's head had been removed by another person. And people believed the same had happened to Anita. However, there was no evidence to lead police to a suspect. Meanwhile, Ed wasn't worried about getting caught. Even if the authorities did have evidence, forensic DNA testing wasn't around at the time, so he knew he hadn't left any valuable clues behind. And one month after Mary Ann's skull was found, Ed felt the urge to kill again.

• 43:51Speaker 05

  On September 14, 1972, he went hunting for his next victim. He spotted 15-year-old Aiko Koo at a bus stop in Berkeley. Aiko had missed her bus and she was running late to a dance class, so she held out a sign to try and hitchhike a ride. Ed spotted her and pulled up in his yellow Ford. He offered to drive Aiko wherever she wanted to go, and she accepted. Despite her young age, Aiko was already establishing herself as a ballerina and traditional Korean dancer. That evening, she left home excited that she'd been selected to perform at a dance festival. So as Ed drove, Aiko's thoughts were preoccupied with her future.

• 44:35Speaker 05

  It wasn't until Ed reached the mountains above Santa Cruz that Aiko realized they were way off course. But it was too late. Ed pulled out his gun, put tape over her mouth, and ordered her into the backseat. Terrified, Aiko did as she was told. Too large to jump into the backseat himself, Ed got out of the car and accidentally locked himself out. We'll never know why, but Aiko let him back into the car. When he got in the backseat, he suffocated her until she passed out. While she was unconscious, he sexually assaulted her. Then, when she began to come to, he strangled her to death.

• 45:16Speaker 05

  He put her body in the trunk, then drove home, but not before making a couple of stops. First, he stopped at a bar for a few beers. While he drank, Ed thought about his mother. He wondered if she'd be able to sense he was behaving differently after what he'd done. So he got back into his car and drove to her house. They chatted for about 30 minutes, but she didn't seem suspicious at all. So Ed finally headed home.

• 45:45Speaker 06

  Ed has repeatedly demonstrated a pattern of observing others, gathering information, and adapting accordingly. He's consistently trying to test if he can fit in, whether that is adjusting his appearance or his post-offense behavior. And this has helped him blend in. The only person who has ever known how truly dangerous he is, or has warned others about what he's capable of, is his mother. She warned his father that he would kill his grandparents. So the fact that he decided to test this out with her is rather telling. Because if she, of all people, can't tell what he has just done, then I think to him, his presentation is a success.

• 46:30Speaker 06

  It passed the test. Whatever behavior or demeanor he's used to deceive her is working. Ed is learning how to hide in plain sight.

• 46:40Speaker 05

  What do you make of the fact that Ed made two stops? First at the bar, and then at his mom's house, right after killing Iko and while her body was still in the trunk of his car? Do you think he just enjoyed the feeling of being around people while keeping this secret?

• 46:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's possible. He was gaining something from this, for sure. Some organized serial offenders get psychological gratification from successfully deceiving others and avoiding suspicion. And here he is, sitting among them, having drinks while Aiko's body is in his trunk, and everyone around him is none the wiser. That can give him a feeling of mastery, because he knows something that no one else does. And more importantly, he successfully concealed it. And I think that's also why he wanted to expand on this feeling by testing this with his mother next. I also think this speaks to his compartmentalization, that he can so easily go from murdering a young woman like that in such a horrific way after assaulting her, to engaging in

• 47:36Speaker 06

  ordinary social interactions as though nothing happened. And every successful experience like this is going to reinforce his confidence even more.

• 47:46Speaker 05

  It's possible Ed enjoyed being able to blend back into society after committing a gruesome murder. And after leaving his mom's house, he still wasn't done. The next morning, he spent about four hours dismembering Aiko's body and removing her head. The entire process excited him sexually, and he assaulted his victim's remains numerous times. When he was done, Ed did the same thing as before. He kept Aiko's head, as well as her hands, and disposed of the rest in the mountains. While in the forest, Ed also looked through Aiko's belongings. He found her address and decided to drive by. That's when he realized she came from a humble home. Ed felt extremely disappointed in himself.

• 48:30Speaker 05

  He felt that women from wealthier backgrounds deserved what he did to them, but not girls like Aiko. And while Aiko wasn't rich, she was loved. Her mother had called the police just hours after she should have returned home, but they told her Aiko had probably run away and refused to help her. All the while, Ed was driving around town with the young girl's head in the trunk of his car, including on his way to a psychiatric evaluation.

• 48:58Speaker 05

  After seeing Aiko's house, Ed drove 160 miles to Fresno to meet with court-appointed psychiatrists. His juvenile records had been temporarily sealed when he was released, but he wanted them permanently sealed so he could try again to become a police officer. At the appointment, Ed said all the right things and passed the evaluation with flying colors. Doctors believed he posed no violent threat to anyone, and they recommended his records remain sealed. Just like that, the murder of Ed's grandparents continued to be sealed away from the authorities. He felt completely invincible. To celebrate, he bought a new gun in January of 1973.

• 49:42Speaker 05

  That same day, he picked out his next victim, 19-year-old Cynthia Scholl, a Santa Cruz local and Cabrillo College student. Cynthia was looking for a ride to class, and Ed offered her one. But instead of taking her to the campus, Ed drove Cynthia to an isolated area somewhere between Corralitos and Freedom in Santa Cruz County. He pulled out his new 22-caliber pistol and forced her into the trunk. Then, he shot her once in the head. Ed intended to act out his usual post-murder ritual, but instead of bringing Cynthia's remains to his apartment, he drove to his mother's.

• 50:23Speaker 05

  While she wasn't around, he dismembered the remains and assaulted his latest victim's corpse. Later, Ed disposed of Cynthia's remains across Big Sur. He had no idea that this time, he was leaving behind crucial evidence.

• 50:56Speaker 05

  Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time as Andrea joins Dr. Engels and me for the conclusion of our deep dive into the mind of Ed Kemper.

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Looking forward to it.

• 51:06Speaker 06

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram @CrimeHouse. Don't forget to rate, review, and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.

• 51:27Speaker 05

  And to enhance your listening experience, join Crime House Plus and get both parts of every story dropped on the same Monday completely ad-free. No waiting three days for part two. Plus, Crime House bonus episodes every month. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com. Or if you listen on Apple Podcasts, tap "Try Free" at the top of the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds page.

• 51:52Speaker 05

  Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels, and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Minds team: Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pritzowski, Alyssa Fox, Sarah Bachelor, Sarah Tardif, and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  This was part one of the Ed Kemper deep dive from Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Part two picks up with Kemper's final, most personal kill, plus an extended conversation between me and Dr. Engels, breaking the whole case down. Here's the important part: Part two is not in this feed. To hear it, you need to follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds. Search Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you're listening right now and hit "Follow."

• 52:50Speaker 07

  With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule, so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at ChatGPT.com. OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on.

• 53:35Speaker 07

  Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 53:45Speaker 05

  This is Gemma Spieg from the psychology of your 20s. You know that feeling when your skin just needs a tall drink of water? That's what Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer is for. Moisture Surge 100-Hour Moisturizer absorbs instantly and hydrates for 100 hours for plump, glowing skin. That's right, 100 hours. It is a lightweight, oil-free gel cream, safe for sensitive skin. It's allergy-tested and fragrance-free. I use this all the time. It makes my skin feel so fresh and plump and glowy. Even under makeup, I still see an amazing difference. It never leaves my skin oily or tacky.

• 54:29Speaker 05

  Try Clinique Moisture Surge 100-Hour today at clinique.com. Feels like Moisture Surge.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.