Part Two: P. Diddy: A Life in Crimes

Robert and Wil discuss the east coast / west coast rap war that Diddy helped orchestrate, as well as just, an awful lot of sex crimes. Sean 'Diddy' Combs: What's a 'freak off', and what are the charges against him? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c869qd5j09xo The ‘Freak-Offs’ at the Core of Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs’s Troubles: Drugs, Sex, Baby Oil - The New York Times https://archive.is/TPMyh#selection-1213.0-1229.261 https://www.miamiherald.com/miami-com/miami-com-news/article295553889.html#storylink=cpy Diddy's White Parties Were Wild — Check out the Photos https://www.distractify.com/p/sean-diddy-combs-white-party-photos 'I believe I was sexually assaulted at P. Diddy's party after winning tickets on a radio show' https://www.msn.com/en-us/music/celebrity/i-believe-i-was-sexually-assaulted-at-p-diddys-party-after-winning-tickets-on-a-radio-show/ar-AA1uJE3G?ocid=BingNewsSerp We should've known about Diddy: A history of violence | Salon.com https://www.salon.com/2023/11/20/we-shouldve-known-about-diddy-a-history-of-violence/ Before he was Diddy: Covering Sean Combs’s first scandal - Columbia Journalism Review https://www.cjr.org/first_person/before-diddy-sean-combs-first-scandal-stampede-ccny-city-college-deaths.php THE CRUSH AT CITY COLLEGE; AN INQUIRY SPREADS BLAME FOR DEATHS AT A NEW YORK GYM - The New York Times https://archive.is/wvTU4#selection-7261.110-7269.431 Music Executive Recounts Day of Altercation With Rapper Combs - Los Angeles Times https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1999-may-21-fi-39384-story.html The epic rise and fall of Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs | The Independent https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/p-diddy-accusations-lawsuit-love-sean-combs-b2547969.html Diddy Accused Of Paying $1M For Tupac's Murder, New Court Documents Reveal https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/diddy-accused-of-paying-1m-for-tupacs-murder-new-court-documents-reveal/ar-BB1qyFEX Diddy Reflects on the Childhood Memories That Drove His Success https://americansongwriter.com/diddy-reflects-on-the-childhood-memories-that-drove-his-success/ Sean "P. Diddy" Combs Bio: Everything You Need to Know About the Entertainment Mogul - The Hip Hop Insider https://thehiphopinsider.com/bios/sean-p-diddy-combs-bio/ Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs: The ups and downs of a ‘bad boy’ turned businessman | CNN https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/27/entertainment/sean-diddy-combs-career/index.html Sean 'Diddy' Combs on growing up: "I wanted to... shake up the world" https://money.cnn.com/2016/09/02/media/diddy-sean-combs-ciroc-networth/ Diddy lived with the Amish and milked cows as a child https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-45082044 Everyone publicly involved in the Sean 'Diddy' Combs allegations : NPR https://www.npr.org/2024/10/10/g-s1-26981/diddy-sean-combs-cassie-kid-cudi-jodeci Diddy and Aubrey O’day’s Feud and Allegations Explained https://www.distractify.com/p/diddy-aubrey-oday-feud-explained Danity Kane’s Aubrey O’Day Says Diddy Tried to Buy Her Silence | Us Weekly https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/danity-kanes-aubrey-oday-says-diddy-tried-to-buy-her-silence/ Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs’s White Parties Were Edgy, A-List Affairs. Were They More? - The New York Times https://archive.ph/20241008013107/https:/www.nytimes.com/2024/09/29/arts/music/sean-combs-diddy-white-parties.html#selection-5453.0-5473.267 The Hamptons’ “Modern-Day Gatsby”: Diddy’s White Party Turns 20 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/hamptons-modern-day-gatsby-diddys-white-party-turns-20-1100974/ A NIGHT OUT WITH: Puffy; Gettin' Jiggy Wit The Jet Set - The New York Times https://archive.ph/20241003032937/https:/www.nytimes.com/1998/08/23/style/a-night-out-with-puffy-gettin-jiggy-wit-the-jet-set.html#selection-773.0-773.577 Politics and Partying Meet in the Hamptons - The New York Times https://archive.is/RouYo#selection-3279.0-3279.237 Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs’ lavish White Parties marked the peak of his cultural influence | CNN https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/24/entertainment/sean-diddy-combs-white-parties/index.html Diddy’s American Dream had a dark side: Years of lawsuits, controversy - The Washington Post https://archive.ph/20241018173311/https:/www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/music/2024/05/03/diddy-lawsuits-allegations-sean-combs/#selection-2025.0-2117.2 https://www.irishstar.com/culture/entertainment/p-diddy-white-parties-models-34050967 https://www.themirror.com/entertainment/p-diddy-precious-muir-playboy-790850 https://nypost.com/2024/09/19/us-news/sean-diddy-combs-hamptons-sex-parties-with-gay-rappers/ https://www.distractify.com/p/sean-diddy-combs-white-party-photos https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/diddy-accused-of-paying-1m-for-tupacs-murder-new-court-documents-reveal/ar-BB1qyFEX https://www.bet.com/article/f51sy2/diddy-closes-justin-s-restaurant-in-atlanta https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/p-diddy-accusations-lawsuit-love-sean-combs-b2547969.html https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/diddy-made-money-off-student-protests-college.html/ https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/diddy-friends-bad-boy-artists-abuse-violence-1235028178/ https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/posts/la-et-ms-sean-p-diddy-combs-bad-boy-entertainment-retrospective-20151005-story.html See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Oh, hear ye, hear ye! The Court of Bastards is now in session. The Honorable Judge Robert Evans presiding, and that's not a bit.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 0:17Robert Evans?

  I'm making an announcement here. Well, I don't think I told you this yet. I have been sworn in as a judge. I am legally a United States Municipal Judge for the State of New Mexico.

• 0:29Speaker 02

  This is not, this is not a bit.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  It's not a bit.

• 0:32Robert Evans?

  This is not a bit.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  It's not a bit, and he's brought it up. I think he's told me the same, same piece of information 500 times.

• 0:38Robert Evans?

  I have the paperwork. I am now legally the Honorable Robert Evans for the rest of my life. I can marry people, not just officiate like some of you folks. I can witness documents. I could hear cases. I don't think anyone's gonna give me any, but I am a judge now in New Mexico, and, uh, you know...

• 0:58Speaker 02

  How, how does one become a judge in New Mexico?

• 1:01Robert Evans?

  You get sworn in by another judge. It works, actually. I've just...

• 1:04Speaker 02

  No, but like, how did you, do you just, you had to like, call him?

• 1:06Robert Evans?

  No.

• 1:07Speaker 02

  Was there an online application?

• 1:08Robert Evans?

  Let's, let's call him a fan. I mean, definitely, they are a fan. A wonderful person, whose name I'm not going to use in this.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  And they were like, "Hey, bro, did you know that it's no work to become a judge?"

• 1:18Robert Evans?

  You know, it's incredibly easy? Well, it's apparently, I didn't know this either, becoming a judge works exactly like being a vampire in Interview with the Vampire.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  You can't come in if somebody invites you?

• 1:29Robert Evans?

  More than, you get, you can get made a judge by like, a bigger judge, but you cannot necessarily make other people judges, right? You have to, you have to drink a certain amount of blood.

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta keep the pyramid at a, you know, a certain angle, or else it gets too wide.

• 1:45Robert Evans?

  Again, if, if I'm remembering Interview with the Vampire right, I am now going to live in France and then burn down a theater.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Take on an eight-year-old child as your eventual...

• 1:54Robert Evans?

  Yes, take on an eight-year-old child. Yeah. Do the whole, the whole Interview with the Vampire thing.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  I'm not really sure what that was. I'm very confused still about what, what she was in that movie. It was creepy.

• 2:04Robert Evans?

  Oh, you gotta try the new TV show, Will. It's, it's wonderful.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Oh, is it? I, I kind of, I saw that it existed, but I kind of put it in the same, like, you know when they made the, the Archie comic into a, into a drama?

• 2:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  What's it called?

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Riverdale.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Riverdale.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  So bad.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  I kinda assumed it was something like that where they just like, or like The Fresh Prince. They turned that into a fucking drama or whatever.

• 2:27Robert Evans?

  No, no, no, no.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  I kinda thought it was like something like that where it was just like real teeny like

• 2:30Robert Evans?

  As a-

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Buffy the Vampire type shit.

• 2:32Robert Evans?

  No, I can confidently say as a United States judge.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 2:36Robert Evans?

  That show is good. Um, I have that power. Um, I'm gonna go do a Blood Meridian after this.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:43Robert Evans?

  Call me the judge, uh, use my own urine to make gunpowder. It's gonna be incredible, folks.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 2:49Robert Evans?

  But my first act as judge is to sit down with my buddy, the Grammy award-winning Greasy Will, and judge P. Diddy. And this will be legally binding. Whatever I say, the courts have to do if I understand being a judge right, and I don't think I do.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Can I be the middle of the defense and, and the prosecutor? Like, I don't know. I wanna be both. Can I be both?

• 3:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah, you could absolutely be both. Yeah, yeah. Whatever's funnier in the moment.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  A guest of Behind the Bastards, like, primary responsibility is to be a bit of both of these things. Like cheering you on for your incredible journalistic integrity and also correcting your, uh, bad pronunciation of British words.

• 3:27Robert Evans?

  Jordash? I honestly forget what we were saying.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Jodacy? I have no idea.

• 3:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Not my job as a judge to know how to pronounce R and B duos.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Jord- Jordakay?

• 3:38Robert Evans?

  Jord- Jordic.

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Jordic. Jordicco? You know what?

• 3:43Robert Evans?

  I sentence you to come up with a different fucking name. I'm glad this intro was fun, because what we're going to talk about after this cold open, not fun at all.

• 3:52Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.

• 3:57Speaker 04

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• 4:27Robert Evans?

  Picture this. You're listening to the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast and suddenly, wait, what did they just say? Well, the questions raised in those show-stopping moments will be answered in the all-new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. Hosts Gabe and Chris will dive deep on a specific topic covered in that week's Tuesday episode, from sexual health and HIV prevention to finding the right doctor. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences. We're back and things are about to get horrible. So, 1991, the same year that he got all of those fucking people killed, is the year

• 5:09Robert Evans?

  in which Joy J O I Dickerson Neal, one of those hyphenated last names, claims that Sean drugged and raped her.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 5:17Robert Evans?

  Yes, yeah, I know, sorry, there was no way to like-

• 5:19Speaker 02

  You just came out swinging for the fences, like-

• 5:22Robert Evans?

  That's why I opened with something fun. Yeah. Cause it's gonna get, it's just, I mean, this is gonna be horrible, folks.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry, what year was this now?

• 5:32Robert Evans?

  91, the same year he got nine people killed in a crush.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:35Robert Evans?

  So this is the earliest, I don't know that this is the first person that Sean drugs and assaults or assaults, period, but this is the earliest allegation so far against Diddy. That may have changed by the time these episodes drop, shit is coming out rapidly.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 5:48Robert Evans?

  It is one of the most serious. She was a college student at the time, Sean was an up-and-coming music producer who hosted legendary parties. He put her in one of his music videos and then while they were doing that, he asked her out on a date, which is, you know, classic story.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Classic story, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is why the-

• 6:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Prototype exists, this is why people know that this is a thing.

• 6:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  Is it's just the classic producer story.

• 6:14Robert Evans?

  And it's fucked up because like, obviously, this is the way a lot of people get assaulted. It is also legitimately how a lot of people's careers begin.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:22Robert Evans?

  You know, like, and honestly, sometimes both happen, right? Like, that's-

• 6:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:26Robert Evans?

  Which is why it's going to keep happening forever.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  The Weinstein story is exactly that, it's literally, let me assault you and you get to have a career.

• 6:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, you can get into this fucking, you know-

• 6:36Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, and as this- progresses on, we're gonna see a lot of that where it's like people who go along with it. Make it. And when they stop going along with it, they disappear.

• 6:47Robert Evans?

  Right, right. Yes, yes.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  You know?

• 6:49Robert Evans?

  So after dinner, Sean pushes Joy to stay out with him. She wants to go home and he's like, no, no, no, let's go. And he takes her to a recording studio. She has a drink at some point, I think, on the drive over and she like can't get out of the car because she's so fucked up at the time they get there, not from the drink, but from the fact that the drink has been drugged.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Obviously drugged.

• 7:06Robert Evans?

  I'm guessing just from her description, it sounds like GHB, but could have been a couple of things.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Pretty fast acting.

• 7:12Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  In a car drive across the, you know, it's like, that's not, that's not a long time.

• 7:17Robert Evans?

  Nope, nope, nope. Uh, Combs takes her to a separate location and he sexually assaults her. He films the rape.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Naturally, because why not keep evidence?

• 7:26Robert Evans?

  Why not keep it? Well, he films it to use as like revenge porn against her, right?

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So this is like, this is where he starts to get into this, uh, the blackmail.

• 7:33Robert Evans?

  He's doing this from the jump. Yeah.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. The Epstein, if you will.

• 7:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, exactly. And Dickerson actually finds out that he's videotaped it because a male friend of hers comes to her and is like, hey, man, I was just hanging out with Sean and he showed us a video of himself having sex with you. And like, you don't really look like you're conscious.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:52Robert Evans?

  So that's how she finds out about it. Like he shares, he shows this to a number of people.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  God, that is just fucking awful.

• 7:59Robert Evans?

  It's hideous and it's one of those things.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Wait, so, so wait, so this is 91, right?

• 8:04Robert Evans?

  91, yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  What, what, did he have, was it a camcorder? He had like a camcorder?

• 8:09Robert Evans?

  It must have been like a camcorder. Yeah, like it was not.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Like, was it a hidden situation or just like?

• 8:14Robert Evans?

  You know, you're right.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Cause there's like, there's like an element of like decisions that he had to make. Like he had to set this up and plan this. Like this wasn't, you know?

• 8:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And he had to set this up. He played the plan. This, he spent a lot of money. Like it's not cheap to.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. Yeah. Camera 91 was very expensive. You weren't just buying one cheap.

• 8:30Robert Evans?

  That's probably a big part of, in addition, just wanting to do in the first place, why she's drugged, right? Is so that he can set up and do all this, you know?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. It's not an easy process to use. It's not like now where you just push a button or whatever on your phone. You gotta set this, get lighting and shit. Like, it's like, camcorders were not just like.

• 8:47Robert Evans?

  Uh, just laying. Yeah, and it's also, I want to know now, if you're very familiar with this case, you're going to know, oh, he's not bringing up everyone. I can't, there's not enough time to talk about every single person who has made allegations. I'm gonna go through enough that you understand what he does. Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, at this point, it's literally like dozens and dozens of people. Like, there's so many people that they've started filing class actions against him.

• 9:10Robert Evans?

  It's the kind of thing where I think, and we'll never know how many people it was in total, but I would be shocked if the total number of victims, one way or the other, aren't in the hundreds. You know, there's different levels of victim. There's some people that it's-

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Astonishing. There's Genghis Khan levels of-

• 9:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah, there's some people who are like, "He coerced me, but like, I did say yes." There's some people who are like, "I got drugged, but he didn't rape me," or like, "I got out." So there's like degrees of difference from how this happens, because there's so many people he's doing this to.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  And there's combinations of every single one of those things too, as well. It's like, it is layers upon layers. Well, you know, you're talking, this is 1991, we're in 2024. You know, this is a 30-year legacy of doing this, you know? This is astonishing. And to only have allegations, really, because like, that's the one thing is like, outside of like, the industry, his image was pretty clean. You know, like, he had a few little things that was like-

• 10:06Robert Evans?

  Largely the Tupac stuff, right?

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, "Did he kill Tupac?" Or, "Did he was involved in like..." But it wasn't really like the sexual assault stuff that was like, big. It was all like conspiracy mogul, like, you know, mob-type stuff, you know? Like, before this point in history, you know?

• 10:24Robert Evans?

  Right, absolutely, yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  I mean, we knew about, or the other stuff existed and was out there, but it wasn't like that was what he was known for when it came to that stuff.

• 10:33Robert Evans?

  People wouldn't say, "Oh, that guy's definitely a piece of shit," right? Yeah.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  It was almost like he committed a bigger crime. In being involved in Biggie and Tupac's murders.

• 10:42Robert Evans?

  Like, look, if you're.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  And it overshadowed it.

• 10:44Robert Evans?

  If you've got a crime you want to commit, you know, like, maybe, maybe you're looking to do a big crypto scam or something, just kill Tupac first and you'll get away with it for at least 30 years. Yeah, that's, that's the, the Diddy story.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  He might be a judge, but don't take legal advice from Robert.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is not legal advice. Do not kill Tupac. If you find Tupac.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Let us know.

• 11:05Robert Evans?

  Leave him alone. No, leave him alone. He deserves, if he's really alive, he deserves to die.

• 11:11Robert Evans?

  So, in the wake of this horrible sex crime, Sean got his first big opportunity. In 1992, he scouted out and signed a rap artist named Christopher Wallace, better known to posterity as Biggie Smalls or the notorious B.I.G. And this is, I've just, I'm not super, you know, knowledgeable about pop culture. I love Biggie. Biggie was one of the greatest lyricists of his generation. Honestly, part of why I love him, I think he's like written better about depression and hating yourself than most people in music ever have. Like, he was great at it.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  He was Biggie. He was a huge man. He was fat as hell and he knew he was fat as hell and he said it all the time. And then, at one point in his career, he acknowledged, not only am I fat as hell, but I'm sexy as hell too because I'm rich as hell. So like, I don't give a shit about what you guys say, you know?

• 12:00Robert Evans?

  He was so cool.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  And, and he really leaned into it. You know, it's like, you're talking about a dude whose biggest rival at the time was Tupac, who was an athletic looking guy. You know, Tupac was ripped, you know, like, and then Biggie's like, yeah, whatever. I'm 400 pounds. I don't give a shit. But he was notoriously legendary.

• 12:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, legendary.

• 12:22Robert Evans?

  And he is, this is one of those guys, we talk about a lot of guys in, especially gangster rap, really massage their reputation. Biggie didn't have to do that. He comes from a tough background. His dad abandons the family when he's three, which is interesting that that, both he and Diddy lose their dads at age three. Might have been part of why they like got along.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Bonded, yeah.

• 12:41Robert Evans?

  He grew up near Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn, uh, which at that point in time was a very different neighborhood than it is today.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Sure. Not filled with hipsters.

• 12:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. He was raised a Jehovah's Witness and became a drug dealer selling weed at age 12 and moved up to crack once that epidemic kicked off. His mother was-

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Jehovah's Witness?

• 13:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's raised a Jehovah's Witness. His mom is very strict. He has to hide what he's doing from her.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  I, I don't know that I've ever heard that before. That is really interesting because, I mean, like, I knew that, like, he was very much, there's a lot of stories, even his mom told a lot of stories in, in, in the, the biographies they've done with, of him and everything, of like, him always having to like hide stuff because she was watching, she was on top of what he was doing, but I, I'd never heard that.

• 13:23Robert Evans?

  It also has a big influence on the kind of music he makes because his mom is very strict and the morals that he's raised with conflicts in his new career. So he always does, he has this feeling that is, I think, not super common for a lot of people in the same industry, that what he's doing is bad, right? And that influences the kind of music he makes. His debut album is called Ready to Die, which includes the song, the great song Suicidal Thoughts, which opens with the verse, "When I die, fuck it. I wanna go to hell, cuz I'm a piece of shit. It ain't hard to fucking tell." Or getting more direct towards his feelings about his mom, "All my life, I've been considered as the worst, lying to my mother, even stealing out her purse. Crime after crime, from drugs to extortion, I know my mom wished she got a fucking abortion."

• 14:07Robert Evans?

  Like, fuck, I love Biggie.

• 14:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Biggie definitely was very pressing. He was very, like, knowledgeable of himself and where he was at, you know, like, he, anytime, it was actually one of the things that was so fascinating about Biggie's work is that he would often talk about drug dealing as, like, as the darkness that it was. Like, a lot of times, like, people were drug dealing, like, especially now, it's like this glamour position, right? And for him, it was not. It was so much more of like, "This is what I had to do to survive."

• 14:37Robert Evans?

  I fucking hate myself because of what I had to do. Yeah.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. "I don't like that I had to do these things. I don't like myself because I had to do these things, and this is what it's like to grow up in these situations and have," and it was like, it took so much of the glamour out of it. It was dark. It was twisted and it was dark. It was like, damn. Like, he's really speaking- About the truth of all this.

• 15:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  You know, it was not like, look at me, I'm doing this because I'm fucking gonna wear gold necklaces and shit. Like, he was pretty humble, even with like the braggadocious part of it, it was still kind of dark.

• 15:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  In its, in its humility.

• 15:12Robert Evans?

  Absolutely. I guess what we're getting at is we're both fans of Biggie. Obviously, Biggie's going to be one of the most successful rappers of all time. But initially, when he's getting started, his work is seen as too explicit and too based in his extensive life of crimes.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:27Robert Evans?

  MCA Records, who is Uptown's distributor, and that's where Sean works. And so Sean's boss, Andre Harrell, lets him go, basically fires him, although he will claim, Andre says, I didn't fire him because he was bad. Basically, I said like, look, man, you're right, this guy's gonna be a hit, the label won't go for it. Fucking bounce. You're, it's time for you to succeed on your own, right? Andre later tells Wall Street Journal, I didn't want to sit there and be the one confining Puff because the corporation was telling me to do that. I'm not built that way. I told Puff he needs to go and create his own opportunity. You're red hot right now. I'm really letting you go so you can get rich. And that's exactly what fucking happened, so.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, minutes later.

• 16:06Robert Evans?

  Minutes later. All of the money in the world, yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really did. I mean, it was the perfect time for that, you know, like, for the most part, up until Biggie and Pac. You know, a lot of hip hop was more like happy type shit. It was still like, sometimes it was like, had the darkness, NWA existed, obviously. But like, Biggie and Pac were like, really some of the originators of that like, dark upbringing culture of rap where it's like, look, we fucking, we hustle to survive and we're doing what we gotta do. And like, talking the real truth about what it was like to be a black man in America at the time.

• 16:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  So it was like, there was something really, uh, unique about that moment. Because it was starting to, you know, we're getting the, the crack epidemic, we're getting, you know, like, crime bill that old Biden.

• 16:55Robert Evans?

  Sleepy Joe back when he was much, much more wakeful.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, when he was really taking it.

• 17:01Robert Evans?

  When he was awake.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Right, so it's like, yeah, exactly, like, maybe he should be sleepy.

• 17:06Robert Evans?

  Maybe sleepy is better.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  He commits some of the biggest crimes against black America that you can imagine.

• 17:12Robert Evans?

  I have always been firmly of the stance that the water fountains in the Capitol Building need to have Xanax in them. We could solve a lot of problems. Lot of problems.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, bring this down a little bit.

• 17:23Robert Evans?

  You know what?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  You know.

• 17:24Robert Evans?

  Put Xanax in the water everywhere.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, actually, yeah, great point.

• 17:28Robert Evans?

  Xanax, lithium, let's just.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  This is like when you're in high school and you think you can solve all the world's problems the first time you take mushrooms and you're like, we need to give everyone mushrooms. We would, but actually, maybe that might.

• 17:40Robert Evans?

  Maybe we really do need to put lithium in the water or something. So Combs started a label of his own, Bad Boy Records, and it.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Bad Boy.

• 17:50Robert Evans?

  Right?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Clink, clink, clink.

• 17:52Robert Evans?

  And this is when you're about the East Coast, West Coast rap feud, it's Bad Boy and Death Row over on, you know, the other side of the country.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Suge Knight and Death Row.

• 18:00Robert Evans?

  Oh, Suge Knight, yeah.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Well, are we gonna Suge Knight a little?

• 18:03Robert Evans?

  We're gonna talk a little bit of Suge Knight, yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 18:06Robert Evans?

  Because basically Biggie becomes a massive star pretty much overnight, and that makes Bad Boy a name, and that causes immediate friction with the West Coast premier gangster rap enclave, Suge Knight's Death Row Records. If you want to know the kind of man, we're talking about Biggie being a fucking real gangster, Suge is a real gangster. Suge.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  The realest of gangsters.

• 18:25Robert Evans?

  Later in life, will be shot at two consecutive VMA after-parties.

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, my God. One of my favorite Suge Knight things is the, is the Vanilla Ice story.

• 18:37Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  That he held him off the roof of a building by his ankles.

• 18:41Robert Evans?

  Oh.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  By his ankles, he held, because, just over some dispute, you know, it's like, it was like, Suge was the realest of real so much.

• 18:48Robert Evans?

  Give him the rights or sell the rights to Ice Ice Baby or something?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. He held him off the roof of a bu, it's like, this is the type of dude he was, this is a little side tangent, I don't want to go too far into it, but recently there was this TikTok thing that happened where a guy found a bunch of old Death Row tapes, two-inch tapes, in a storage locker, right? And because I'm in the TikTok zone, I saw this happen, and I was like, oh, this is cool, hey, if you need any help with this, hit me up. And it turned out to be a bunch of, like, MC Hammer Death Row era stuff, right?

• 19:20Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  And it was like. Almost immediately, once that started coming out, all, all the comments were like, hey, man. Like, just be careful. And it ended up going that I found the guy, the engineer that was responsible for that stuff. And I was like, hey, man, I was like, I, this guy found all this stuff. Do you know your name's on the tapes? And he was like, I don't really want to be involved in that. Because of that era of my life was one of the most I've ever felt like in, in danger.

• 19:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  He's like, that was the most I was ever worried about, like, making it through the day was when I worked as an engineer for Death Row.

• 20:00Robert Evans?

  There's a, there's a lot of like, things you can say about Suge Knight that are, you know, bastardy, but also Suge Knight's not really sa- Even when he's behind bars, not someone I want to talk too much shit on.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I, I'm close enough, man. I don't know, man.

• 20:16Robert Evans?

  He's a, we'll say he's-

• 20:17Speaker 02

  He's a big guy.

• 20:18Robert Evans?

  He's formidable. He's a formidable man.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Person.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  He's a large person and I would not-

• 20:25Robert Evans?

  No.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Want to ever have my tiny skull crushed.

• 20:27Robert Evans?

  We have lots of respect for you, Suge.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do your thing.

• 20:31Robert Evans?

  Don't dangle.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Just don't run me over at a burger stand, you know?

• 20:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So this is primarily a story of the evil that Sean is gonna do later in his life. And his involvement in the East Coast-West Coast rap rivalry is like, we know, but also it's murky, right? Like, there's a degree of murk of like, exactly what he was doing.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Unreliable narratives, as you would say. A lot of unreliable narratives.

• 20:55Robert Evans?

  Most of the narrators are like, talking through wiretaps that the police have, or like, interviews the police are conducting, so.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:03Robert Evans?

  Not great.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Literally, anything you get in all of this stuff is, it's unreliable and because there's a, a level of ego that's involved in this stuff. There's a level of, um, self-importance and there's a, a level of, also, we were really fucked up doing drugs and alcohol. And I don't actually remember what was going on, you know?

• 21:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  It's like, there's a joke in the audio industry about, like, literally almost everybody has a, I forgot, like, like the Fleetwood Mac, like- I forgot I made that song story like I don't remember even being there and doing that.

• 21:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I was watching a fucking, uh, an old video of them during like the rumors tour and it's just clear like not a one of you. You're all playing perfectly, but not one of you could walk 10 feet without falling down. Like you are, you are snow blind and to walk you onto that stage.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  And, and although it has changed in its direction, there is still a large amount of that in the music industry.

• 22:01Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Where it's just like, even on the, like the professional side of things, like the engineer side of things. I once cleaned a console that had been like a soundboard that had been in use since like the early seventies, right? It's one of like the, the, oh, Metallica recorded here. Oh, like, you know, that type of thing. Like every band ever had used this console and we took off the plates for the faders to clean it. And there was actually cocaine and like, and like weed and like shit under the faders. Like that much had accumulated over time that it was just like under and it was like, oh my, and you're like, you're like still like, why am I, why are my hands like, why do I feel numb right now?

• 22:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, just walking in the room.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  That seventies cocaine. Yeah. It's like that seventies cocaine. That's a good shit.

• 22:46Robert Evans?

  This himself before sending, putting it on the back of the truck. Yeah.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  So there is a lot of like unreliable narration that happens in the music industry all the time. It's, there's a lot of drugs. There's a lot of alcohol and there's a lot of like, man, sometimes people tell me my own stories.

• 23:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, and a lot of when you're talking about the guys who are also literally fighting each other, a lot of head injuries, you know?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

• 23:12Robert Evans?

  But the gist of it is there's this huge conflict that comes to central around Tupac, who's the big west coast star and Biggie, who is the east coast star. And you know, Tupac's, you know, with Shug and Biggie is with Sean, Diddy. So things come to a head on November 30th, 1994, when Tupac Shakur is shot five times in the lobby of Quad Studios in Times Square. This is not when he dies. Tupac was a tough guy.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Real quick, just to rewind in this story of what happened. So the East Coast, West Coast thing, one of the big inciting factors were the Source Awards in New York, probably I think a year before Tupac died. Suge Knight was on stage directly insulting Diddy. Like that was like, that was his thing. He stood up on stage and he said, hey, if any of y'all want to be out there and, and not have a producer that is singing and dancing all up in your videos and being like all in, trying to make himself part of the show, right? Then come over to death row, right? And this was like a big, this was when Snoop got involved. There was also a moment just before that, maybe it was right after, I forget, where

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Diddy and Suge were in a strip club in Atlanta and Suge's best friend, that was one of the times you were talking about, Suge's best friend got shot and killed in the parking lot or whatever after that altercation. So up until Tupac getting shot, there's multiple deaths that have already happened. Like this is a back and forth thing that's kind of been going on and they've been antagonizing, but it is Tupac and Biggie verbally in the public, right? But this is a Suge, Diddy situation. This is their egos that are bleeding down into their artists that are fighting against each other because Biggie and Tupac are best friends at one point. We're not best friends, but they are good friends at

• 25:02Speaker 02

  one point in time. This is like an important like part to understand. Biggie used to sleep on Tupac's couch. Tupac's acting and like starting out his career, he's getting like of his first records and everything. He's starting to have success before Biggie. Biggie's sleeping on his couch. Biggie is his friend. So Tupac comes to New York to record at Quad Studios. This is like the big inciting incident before the Source Awards thing. Tupac comes to New York, he's recording in Quad Studios. He comes down to the lobby, Biggie and Diddy are there as well that same night. He comes down to the lobby, he gets shot and robbed in the lobby, right? And this is New York lobby. It's, it's 10 feet. There's a security guy there. It's like, you know, it's a, so, so he gets shot in that lobby.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  And he immediately blames Biggie.

• 25:49Robert Evans?

  And there's.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  For selling him out.

• 25:51Robert Evans?

  And there's, I mean, yeah, and there's also like, it's, it's worth noting, Biggie and Puffy are in the studio, right? At this, at the time, like, and he is the only. It's a quote unquote robbery, but he is the only one who gets shot. Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yes, he's the only one that gets shot. And like, it's been dramatized in a lot of like, you know, biopics and everything, but it's a nondescript place. Like, I've been to Quad Studios before I recorded there. It's a pretty nondescript place. It's not like a flashy studio. Like in L.A., you can see that a lot of the studios, you know, a lot of them are kind of like nondescript, but, but you can, like, they have signs or whatever. Quad Studios has no sign. Quad Studios is not like an accident where you just stumble in and shoot somebody.

• 26:29Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  You do have to know somebody's there. It's on like the 13th floor or some shit like that.

• 26:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he wasn't like on the street and it was a crime of opportunity, right? Like the, the fact that he's like, this had to have been them. Is not a, not, not paranoia or whatever ruling.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 02

  And so that builds up. Tupac actually, right after that shooting, he goes to jail for sexual assault. Spends some time in jail and that's when Biggie's career grows, gets all big. And he comes out of jail to see Biggie now succeeding like fully. And also feeling that hatred and that, that, you know, like they were involved in this somehow of me getting shot. Becomes incredibly paranoid. This is when the Tupac switch really goes to the gangster shit, you know?

• 27:15Robert Evans?

  And he starts putting out songs insulting Biggie and bad boy records.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. And again, while he's in jail, Biggie puts out Who Shot Ya? I think he was in jail anyways. I might be missing some of this up because also I am an unreliable narrator.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  But while he's in jail, Biggie puts out Who Shot Ya?, which seems like a direct attack on Tupac. Who Shot Ya? is like a pretty.

• 27:42Robert Evans?

  It's a pretty funny thing to do.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  When you're wondering who shot me.

• 27:47Robert Evans?

  And somebody puts out a song. It's the If I Did It of gangster rap.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Yes, it really is. And like, and so Tupac's like, okay, well then we know. And this escalates to a massive, massive battle between East Coast and West Coast.

• 28:00Robert Evans?

  And we are going to talk more about that. But you know what never shot Tupac? To the best of my knowledge, I can't really prove this, but it's unlikely.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  Our products and sponsors, yeah, our products, the guys, the guys that give us the money for doing the stuff.

• 28:16Robert Evans?

  It's very unlikely that they did. Yeah.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, although.

• 28:19Robert Evans?

  Although, unless it's an ad for fucking Diddy.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  You might get it, you might, you know?

• 28:25Robert Evans?

  Starts buying podcast space.

• 28:28Speaker 04

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• 29:34Robert Evans?

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• 30:34Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devato.com or call 1-877-844-8872. And we're back. So, um, in September of 1995, there's another, you know, chapter in this escalating battle. Witnesses say that they see Diddy's bodyguard get into an argument at an Atlanta club with a guy named Jai Hassan Jamal Robles, a member of Death Row's, who's like a Death Row guy, right? And then after that argument, Robles is shot and killed. And it's one of those like, well, he was having an argument with Combs's bodyguard, who's a shooter, and then he gets shot, right?

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Turns out, people with guns are willing to use them.

• 31:15Robert Evans?

  Yes. And by the way, Combs's bodyguard, who probably shot Robles, gets shot himself years later in Atlanta, you know, not a long life in this business.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Like I said, this is, this is a back and forth kind of situation for a long time. It's like, it mirrors what is going on, because these are people who are also gang-related in all these situations. It is a lot of Bloods versus Crips situation. This is the early 90s. This is actually a thing that's going on in the world.

• 31:40Robert Evans?

  It is tightened to the organized crime part of it.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And the mob pyros in, in California and the, and the Crips in, in, in, in Los Angeles and Crenshaw, it's like, this is all happening at the same time.

• 31:52Robert Evans?

  Diddy is not a guy who comes out of gang life, but he is now involved in organized crime, right? Because that's just the business.

• 31:59Speaker 02

  One of the big implications for Diddy being involved in Tupac's death is that he was hiring KPD.

• 32:04Robert Evans?

  Yes, yeah, we'll be talking about that.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Right. So it's like, we get into this, he is associated heavily with other gang members. It's a bit like the Rolling Stones' Hell's Angels shit, where it's like, who do you hire to protect you in your territory? If you don't hire the people who are strong there, you don't have that.

• 32:23Robert Evans?

  You're not safe. Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  And, and even to this day, you know, I've toured with some big acts. I've toured with, you know, Jay-Z and Pusha T. I've toured with a lot of like, mid-level like rappers, Vic Mensa and IDK, like all sorts of stuff like that. Even to this day. When you go to a town, a city, you check in with the guy there. On the Raptors, you check in with the Jay Princes. You check in with the people that are the guy in that town.

• 32:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  Out of respect, out of whatever, but like, you make sure that you are talking to those people. So this is happening now. Make no mistake, that was, there were people that were in charge in those cities that were heavily like involved in the responsibility around protecting those incidences from happening.

• 33:09Robert Evans?

  And you know, well, podcasting works the same way, you know, when the last podcast on the Left Guys, when they tour in Portland, you know, they give Sophie and I a call.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  You better check in.

• 33:17Robert Evans?

  We make sure our shooters stand down, you know? The Pod Save Guys, when I go to DC, you know, fucking they'll, uh, they'll have you capped if you don't call them. Yeah.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I understand that, you know, it's like, it's

• 33:31Robert Evans?

  It's a hard business.

• 33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, the knitting circles are actually very similar as well.

• 33:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Sophie just put out a hit on, and I'm really bad at actually knowing other people in the podcast business. I was gonna say Sarah Marshall, but y'all are real life friends.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  I would, no, no, absolutely not. This is my first.

• 33:50Robert Evans?

  I'm going to Chicago. I gotta call the knowledge fight, guys. Make sure they don't fucking put one in me at the airport.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:58Robert Evans?

  Oh, man.

• 34:01Robert Evans?

  So, and it's also worth noting, as we say, people are dying. Combs is ordering hits, right? I can't say that to a point of legal certainty.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no.

• 34:10Robert Evans?

  But he's ordering hits.

• 34:12Speaker 02

  The implication is strong that people are being directed to

• 34:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  execute other people on this, you know?

• 34:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  By Sean, for sure.

• 34:22Robert Evans?

  I might not have said that a few months ago, but now that he's in jail, I feel confident he's not gonna sue me for defamation. Yeah, he definitely had people killed. Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:31Robert Evans?

  Um, so, uh, it is also, and I should, you know, we're talking about this feud and we will get back to this East Coast-West Coast feud. I should note here, it is around this time, in 1993 or 1994, I think the timeline's a little bit murky. The person may not remember. Precisely, because that's the way trauma works, that Sean Combs is accused of committing his second rape that we know of. Lisa Gardner, who was 16 years old at the time, he is in his twenties, uh, she is a child. Says that she met Combs and Aaron Hall at an album release in New York. She alleges that Combs coerced her into having sex and then Hall assaulted her.

• 35:11Robert Evans?

  And then Diddy rapes her and then Diddy and Hall rape her 15 year old friend Monica Chase. So he and his friend Aaron Hall coerce and rape two underage people, one of whom is 15, one of whom is 16. The day after the assault, Combs comes to her house, she says, and chokes her until she passes out and then sexually assaults her again.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  This is

• 35:36Robert Evans?

  Bad stuff.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  This is bad.

• 35:39Robert Evans?

  Very bad stuff. Yeah.

• 35:43Robert Evans?

  And it's one of those like, yeah, ordering hits is bad too, but to an extent, everyone who's in this East Coast, West Coast thing is agreeing, we're going to do some dangerous shit, right?

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, yeah. Like, so outside of the, because the sex assault stuff.

• 35:57Robert Evans?

  That's just.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Oh, no. I'm just like, I, I can't, you know? Oh, my God.

• 36:04Robert Evans?

  You've got it. You've got to use this. It's the only thing that you can do after talking about something that horrible. It's necessary.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Oh, no, but it's like, like, that's willing participant stuff, not the sex assaults, the, the gang stuff. This is willing participant stuff. So it's like, it's a lot easier to sit back and, but like the sex assault stuff happening concurrently, it's like, it's that, what we were talking about, it's like, it's covering up almost. Or being covered up by the gang stuff. It's like, we're over here thinking about East Coast, West Coast war. He's raping girls.

• 36:38Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  It's like, that's, that's the thing that's like

• 36:41Robert Evans?

  Emphasis on girl.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's like, there's one side where it's like, well, this is like a willing participant situation. I mean, obviously I'm not trying to say everybody that's hurt by gang violence is a willing participant.

• 36:53Robert Evans?

  But the rap thing, yeah.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Yes. It's like between these two guys, they are fighting each other. They are fighting each other. They're causing the country to fight each other. Like they're, this is a thing that's like escalating violence amongst. People in gangs, you know, it's like, but

• 37:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Willing participants, again, it's like, there's obviously collateral damage is obviously bad shit, but, but the other side of this where it's like sexual assault stuff, it's like, damn dude, like, and you don't even get that shit to the surface because there's people dying all over.

• 37:22Robert Evans?

  Right, and everyone's paying attention to the glamorous gang fight stuff, right? And this is happening the whole time that's going down. Also, in 1994, the same year probably, Combs allegedly met and raped a woman named April Lampros. She claims that he started it by telling her he wanted to be her mentor. He love bombed her and once they were dating, he ordered her to keep the relationship secret and started beating her. Lampros later alleged that Combs forced her and his partner at the time, his romantic partner, Kim Porter, to take MDMA and then forced them to have sex while he watched. She attempted to cut off contact with him, but he threatened her, including with revenge porn. So she keeps going for a while. This would have been a thing that would have looked like they were dating from the outside.

• 38:06Robert Evans?

  But a big part of it is that he is violent and if she leaves, he's going to post videos of them having, you know, of, of, yeah, you know, so.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  And this is all a recurring theme in all of the Diddy stuff. It's like, he took that, that one playbook and just ran with it. Play the hits every single time. He just kept going with it because like, he knew that there is, and there is a very truthful element to the power of influence like that you can have by, by just being who you are and being a big deal. And it's scary because you think, especially with people like Diddy, where they actively know that they are untouchable.

• 38:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  They actively know that they're untouchable and that they can do whatever they want.

• 38:44Robert Evans?

  And these are, like, these are the two cases we have from the fucking, the war years, right? These aren't the only two, like, again, what I think is important is-

• 38:52Speaker 02

  That's not a singular event type shit.

• 38:53Robert Evans?

  This is a pattern that he has and he is engaging in this pattern regularly for basically, like, most of the time you and I have been alive. That's the kind of bastard we're talking about here.

• 39:04Speaker 02

  I was five when he started.

• 39:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Great. I was three, yeah. In September of 1996, Tupac was gunned down in a drive-by shooting in Las Vegas. Six months after that, Biggie is killed in a drive-by in Los Angeles. No one was officially convicted of either murder, but we at this point also pretty much know who did both. Biggie was very likely gunned down by a guy named Poochie. Who you can imagine is the character from The Simpsons, if you like.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  Yes, and he's gonna, at the end of it, he is going to space.

• 39:37Robert Evans?

  Going to his own planet.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Here is the toughest part again, unreliable narrators, but also every single one of these people die. Every single one of them gets shot in an early death. Orlando Anderson, who was the likely killer of Tupac, also ended early. Keefe D is the only one that stuck around for a while.

• 39:55Robert Evans?

  Amazing that Keefe D makes it.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Keefe D. You never think it's gonna be Keefe, but it is Keefe D sticks around and he is as unreliable as they come just because of who he is as a person. It is all, it's braggadocious shit. It's all about like talking about, I was involved in this thing. It is definitely, he was involved and he was in the right places, but there's a lot of like, you know, it's even that way with Suge Knight, where it's like Suge Knight is bragging about a lot of this stuff and trying to like elevate and you don't get a complete narrative because nobody is ever gonna tell the truth.

• 40:31Robert Evans?

  Right, right.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  But as far as the evidence points, yeah, Poochie.

• 40:35Robert Evans?

  And I should also clarify here, you will find other theories. There are people who say, no, it wasn't Poochie, it was this other person that killed Biggie. And the same is true with Tupac. I'm going with like the likeliest version of the story. This is not a litigate who killed Tupac podcast.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Right, there's literally podcasts about these murders.

• 40:55Robert Evans?

  Strong opinions on this.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  There's like nine, there's nine biographies, there's biopics, there's so many things.

• 41:01Robert Evans?

  I've got a working theory that it was in fact Bernie Sanders who dropped Tupac.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Oh, damn it, I was gonna make that joke. I was gonna say it was Bernard Montgomery Sanders. Sanders, I was ready for it. Well, no one's stopping. Damn it, I was gonna make that joke because I knew it was gonna be a deep cut that like the real lovers of the pod would be like, oh shit, he's one of us.

• 41:24Robert Evans?

  So, as you noted, Tupac was almost certainly killed by Dwayne "Keefe" D. Davis, who was finally arrested last year for the murder. He had been made a police informant in 2009 after an arrest for drug trafficking. This is. Like a lot of people, he is not super well-informed about how the legal system works. And he believed himself immune to prosecution and admitted to killing Tupac in a drive-by in 1996.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  All right, so heavily believed, so the breakdown of this story, I'll try and get through it really quick. But basically, it was a Tyson fight in Las Vegas. Tupac is there with his girlfriend and Suge Knight, he goes, because he actually wrote a song for Mike Tyson's walk-in. He wrote like a rap song for Mike Tyson. And it's like, it's funny, you should listen to it, but it's, you know, Tupac. So he's there and he's watching the fight. And then after the fight, he sees a guy, Orlando Anderson, who just weeks prior had taken somebody down and stolen their chain. This is a big deal at this time. You have a chain that says death row on it. Suge Knight only gives those to the closest of associates and everything.

• 42:32Robert Evans?

  And again, podcasting works the same way, by the way. Anybody takes my chain, I'm gonna come out blasting, yeah.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, Orlando Anderson was involved in that. Tupac sees him right after the Tyson fight. He beats the shit out of him in a lobby and then goes back to his place. And then Suge and Tupac are gonna go to, to an after-party. They start driving down the street. Orlando Anderson happens to be Keefy D's nephew, right? And they are in a car together, driving down the street. And Orlando and Keefy, depending on which narrator you believe, one of them definitely plugged Tupac. Now, in one of the greatest moments in Tupac history, in all history, fuck it. The cop comes up to Tupac and he says, "Who shot you?" And Tupac says, "Fuck you."

• 43:23Speaker 02

  Because even in death, he kept it real.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  It is one of my favorite pieces. Those were like his last words. That was his last words, was saying fuck you to a cop.

• 43:35Robert Evans?

  It's a literal Johnny Tightlips character.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Robert Evans?

  Johnny, where are you? Shut, I ain't saying nothing.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  I ain't saying nothing.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:43Robert Evans?

  What should I tell the doctor? Tell him to suck a lemon.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Just suck an A. Suck a lemon, yeah, exactly. Literally like, "Who shot you?" He knows who shot him, he just beat that guy up 10 fucking minutes ago, you know? He's like, "Nah, man, fuck yourselves."

• 44:00Robert Evans?

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• 45:37Robert Evans?

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• 45:46Robert Evans?

  We are back. Oh, no. No, no, no. Oh, man. Pain, so much pain. Oh, fuck. So, Tupac. We're talking about Tupac, who was almost certainly killed by Dwayne "Kefy" D. Davis. So Davis, while believing himself immune to prosecution, admits to killing Tupac in 1996. This is much more recently. He just got arrested, I think, last year. And he also claims, while he, again, believed himself immune, that Diddy offered him $1 million to kill Tupac and paid that fee to a different Southside Crips member to do the job.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  And he did not get that money ever.

• 46:32Robert Evans?

  No, no, no. Wow, he got fucked over by a fucking rap gang. So amazing. Diddy's not a man of his word.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Man, this guy. No, uh, so one of the things, so Keefe D had actually been a security guard for Puffy for a while. And like, and that's how that link had been established. You know, one of the things that's like, there's parts of this whole story that you have to kind of take with like a bit of like, I don't think Keefe D was actively like seeking out Tupac or anything. I think there's a situation where if Puffy was involved in this whole situation, the way that it has been accused, I think he did what they say he did, which is he put a word out. The word is if you kill Tupac, I give you a million dollars. Right? And then I think Keefe D and Orlando Anderson happened to be in the right place at the right time. Right? They, they were at the right place at the right time.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  They were connected in the right situation that it happened that they were like, we know where this motherfucker is. We are here right now. Let's do this shit and we'll try and collect on this later. And I think probably, although I don't think it was a million dollars, right? This, I could be wrong about this, but I think what it was actually transferred was like 200,000 or something like that.

• 47:47Robert Evans?

  This is what Keefe D says, right? I'm not saying this is the literal amounts or how it actually happened, right?

• 47:53Speaker 02

  So I think that that's exactly like, I think it got transferred. I think people didn't like, the one guy definitely pocketed that money or according to the story, pocketed that money. The in-between guy pocketed that money and was like, okay bitch. But I think that, you know, again, unreliable narration in this whole story, but there's some, I don't think it was intentional is my point that, that they were trying out at that moment to kill Tupac. They didn't go to Vegas with the intent of killing Tupac. I think they went to Vegas to see a fight. And yeah, there was an incident and then it just turned up and it was a perfect time, you know?

• 48:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  It seems more like that than it was a premeditated situation of they're out there looking to kill Tupac. Like they're on the street, ready to do it. Like Biggie saw Keefe and was like, I will give you this money. Go kill him now. And he went there directly. I think it was a crime of convenience more than anything.

• 48:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. That seems likely to me. I don't know what happened. And again, when I was saying this is what this guy says, I'm not saying this is literally what happened. This is a dude bullshitting to the cops when he thinks he's a mute.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:56Robert Evans?

  So the cops had him reach out to the guy that he said actually got paid for the job and to Diddy, basically trying to get Diddy on a wire, being like, "Yeah, killing Tupac was rad."

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:08Robert Evans?

  I don't think that worked. Sean is not that dumb and he has not been charged.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  He's notoriously been very good about not talking to the wrong people.

• 49:16Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  You know?

• 49:16Robert Evans?

  And he has not been charged with this. I don't know that he ever will, but prosecutors summarizing one of the interviews with Kefi D. in court documents wrote, and this is from right after Tupac's death, "Sean Combs reaches out to defendant, wondering if Southside Crips were responsible for Shakur's death by asking, 'Is that us?' Defendant beaming with pride answers, 'Yes.'" And that is probably how it went down, because often these things are not like, "I ordered a hit and then he was shot." It was more, "I made it known and I spread some money around."

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:44Robert Evans?

  Like, "I wanted someone to take a shot at this guy, but like, other people could have done it. Like, I don't know," you know?

• 49:49Speaker 02

  This is what I'm talking about, the clout industry of this, because it is part entertainment industry. It's part, it's part male ego and like, especially at this time, like, the way that the rap industry was, was like, very like, strong, like, male egocentric type stuff, you know? It was like, Tupac literally, the beef between him and Biggie, like, you know, Biggie made "Who Shot Ya?" and he responded, Tupac responded with saying, "You claim to be a player, but I fucked your wife," you know? Like, he, he came back with what at that time was considered the most, and the rumors around him and Faith Hill actually having, you know, a relationship, were certainly like, "That's real shit," you know? Like, this is a real, like, manly type fight, you know? This is what they're fighting about, is these chauvinistic type concepts.

• 50:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah. No, I mean, it, it's exactly like, "I put two bullets in Dan from Knowledge fight," you know? Not because I didn't like him, just because, you know, he was on my turf, right? You know, he was on my turf and he didn't call me before Jordan went to Portland, you know? This is just the way, nobody likes it. This is just the way podcasting has to be. There's no other way to do it, you know?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  Sorry, man.

• 50:52Robert Evans?

  There's no other way to do it. Yeah, yeah. "One of the NPR guys stabbed me," you know? That's just the way it is. One of those Radiolab guys. I'm not gonna tell you which one. I don't talk, except for I'm talking now.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  I ain't no snitch. I'll snitch on Joe Rogan.

• 51:06Robert Evans?

  I'll snitch on Joe Rogan, yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll snitch on Joe Rogan, man, so fast. Let me find out some news on him.

• 51:13Robert Evans?

  So anyway, not conclusive, but probably pretty safe to say, Diddy had something to do with the Tupac killing.

• 51:20Speaker 02

  At the very least, he influenced it by positively putting that word into the hood.

• 51:24Robert Evans?

  Right, right.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  That if you kill him, there's money on it for you.

• 51:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, exactly. And, you know, obviously, the greater crime in this is the fan art that this whole tragic rivalry has inspired. I'm speaking specifically, I wrote this episode listening to a bunch of Tupac and Biggie songs. And while I was, you know how YouTube does its thing, and it took me to a playlist some DJ had made that was like Tupac and Biggie songs called Biggie vs Tupac. This has nothing to do with the story, but whoever made it did a Photoshop that Sophie's gonna show you, and it's supposed to be like split down the middle Tupac's face and Biggie's face side by side. But the way they did it, it just looks like Tupac had a stroke.

• 52:05Speaker 02

  Oh my god, I can already picture it.

• 52:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Sophie showed it off.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Okay, I got it.

• 52:12Robert Evans?

  It just looks like Tupac stroked out. It's the way like Biggie's got kind of those drooping eyes. Not a successful Photoshop, my man, I'm sorry.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, man, just like, you know, just like NWA, you know, the largest consumers of this east coast, west coast rap were suburban white kids, you know, it's like, and this is true with even today, like you get into like the Travis Scott stuff, you get into like any rap that's like, you know, it is largely consumed by suburban white kids who also, I'm sorry, guys, like, you know, same team or whatever, but you guys could be some of the dumbest, corniest people that exist on the planet. Like, that is pretty brutal, man. Like, the doubt, like, the...

• 53:01Robert Evans?

  As a suburban white kid who was listening to fucking Biggie when I was 50, yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  Me too, sorry, guys.

• 53:07Robert Evans?

  Uh, yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  We just weren't really nailing it.

• 53:10Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna be a gangster one day. Plano fucking tech. God, that was so funny, all the kids who would pretend to be fucking gangsters.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Oh my god, dude. It is, they're just a large consumer of, you know, of that beef. And also, even today, we're still sitting with this, the Kendrick Drake thing right now that is going on, I don't know how plugged in you are to this.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  I've tried to tell him.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems largely egged on by like suburban white populists.

• 53:38Robert Evans?

  No, and I honestly, I'm considering taking some shots at Drake. This seems like the time to do it, you know?

• 53:44Speaker 02

  It is. Yeah, he's low, he's low. You can really get some in and nobody can say anything.

• 53:48Robert Evans?

  This is gonna be huge for our podcast.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  So easy. Punching down on Drake with, you know, whatever, 400 billion fucking streams on Spotify.

• 53:57Robert Evans?

  Um, so Sean Puffy Combs at this point has helped to orchestrate half a coast's campaign of assassinations that led to the deaths of two of the greatest rappers of all time and also some other people. This was a tough period for Diddy though, because after Biggie dies, he's successfully gotten rid of one of his major competitors at the cost of losing his own golden goose.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Sort of.

• 54:19Robert Evans?

  Sort of.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Sort of. He waited a whole two weeks to release his album.

• 54:23Robert Evans?

  That's exactly what I'm saying.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah, so he releases his first hit single in January of 1997. An album follows in July, which includes a touching tribute to Biggie titled "I'll Be Missing You." It might as well be titled "I'll Be Cashing In On Your Death."

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Although, the complaint that you're gonna get from this, people are gonna be like, but he, he never cleared the sample, right, from Sting?

• 54:45Robert Evans?

  Right, yeah, he samples Sting's "Every Move You Take," right?

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:48Robert Evans?

  The greatest crime!

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, he never clears it and he, to this day, like Sting collects a pretty big amount of cash off of that. However, don't also forget that this is a time in the world where appearances pay, radio play pays, like, everything pays. This isn't Spotify era where like, you know, the song being everywhere in the entire world doesn't give you any money, even though you're not getting any publishing off of it. Because when you record it yourself, you own, that's the master recording, you own your version of it.

• 55:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  For certain things, right? Publishing is one thing. They can take all the publishing and you still make money off of that song because it plays places.

• 55:31Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  So it's not like, it's not like he made no money off of that. That's I just know like people are gonna, but he didn't cash in on that because.

• 55:38Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  You know, you know, no, it's like, there's still money to be made, especially in the nineties. There was still a lot of money to be made off of having a number one song in the country.

• 55:47Robert Evans?

  Right. This is the first rap single to debut at number one on the Billboard Top 100. Like, he makes a lot of money as a result of this.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  Everybody knows this song. He comes out at the VMAs, dancing in a white suit, like, like, he, it was actually iconic. It's actually iconic. The Biggie memorial in the background. Oh, God.

• 56:06Robert Evans?

  His dead friend's huge face as he just fucking cash register sounds going off in his head.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  And, and there is also, real quick, just to backpedal a second, there is a lot of talk about Biggie wanting to leave Puffy's label before this happens. There is interviews with tons of people, again, unreliable narrator type stuff, but there is a lot of interviews of people saying that Biggie wanted out of his deal with Bad Boy because he felt like Puffy was taking advantage of him. He felt like he wasn't getting what he should from his music. That he wasn't getting, like, I think at the time, like, he was worth like maybe 20 million dollars or something like that, you know? But he was not, like, reaping what he actually should have from nineties era music.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, when you had a banger in nineties era music, you made, like, 50 million dollars. It was like an insane amount of money that you could make. Like, if you talk about nineties bands, they were selling, they were still selling physical product. It's not like now with streaming and stuff like that. They were selling a physical product. So if you had a platinum album in the nineties, you made 25, 30 million. If your label didn't screw you, if there were, you know, if you weren't getting fucked over, you made like 30 or 40 million dollars. Like, you made a tremendous amount of money. There's a lot of, there's a lot of conversation about Biggie having known that prior to his death.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  Which also leads to the implication that he may have actually been involved in Biggie's own death.

• 57:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and we're largely just staying away from that because it's, it's not provable and the stuff that's provable is, I mean, honestly, a lot worse.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  Again, very unreliable narrators everywhere, but it should at least be known that there is the theory out there in the world that that is something that goes on, you know, that that that happened and that was what he was part of with that.

• 58:04Robert Evans?

  Well, that's gonna do it for part two. Will, you got anything to plug before we roll out?

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Man, I have podcast, if you are a nerd and you like audio stuff, but not nerdy audio stuff, I have a podcast called That Sounds About Right with my friend Shane Lance, who is a polar opposite of me as a human. He's very Christian, very positive human being, and I am divorced three times. So we make a good pair. And we talk about cool audio stuff about our own careers and a little inspirational. I mean, it's called That Sounds About Right. I also am found all over the internet on things from YouTube to TikTok under Greasy Will, Greasy Will Music, Greasy Will. I'm easy to find. A Z and only one L on Will.

• 58:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah, check him out. And check me out on Blue Sky at I Write Okay and check out our other podcasts.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Oh, are you loving Blue Sky? We're all on Blue Sky now.

• 59:01Robert Evans?

  It's fine. It's great now. Yeah, I'm happy.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  You actually, you liked one of my shit the other day on your thing and people were very excited about it.

• 59:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 59:08Speaker 02

  I don't have many followers on Blue Sky, but I share some really dark, twisted thoughts on there. So, you know, if you're into that, you can find me there, too, I'm sure.

• 59:16Robert Evans?

  Watch Will cancel himself and watch me cancel myself all on Blue Sky.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Blue Sky!

• 59:23Robert Evans?

  All right, well, that's it.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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