Part Two: David Berg and the Children of God (ft. Ed Helms)

David Berg starts the 1970s as a wildly popular cult leader and immediately goes insane. Robert walks Ed Helms through the invention of "flirty fishing" AKA prostitution for Jesus and a bunch of other nightmare fuel. Sources; Children of God https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/children-of-god Children of God cult was 'hell on earth' https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-44613932 'Children of God': Life and Death of the Messiah https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/children-of-god-cult-messiah-chosen-one-182272/ The Children of God: Joaquin Phoenix, Rose McGowan Among Former Members of This Notorious Cult https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/a29374581/children-of-god-cult-joaquin-phoenix-rose-mcgowan/ Murder and Suicide Reviving Claims of Child Abuse in Cult - The New York Times https://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/15/us/murder-and-suicide-reviving-claims-of-child-abuse-in-cult.html?searchResultPosition=7 Life With Grandpa (1985) - more perverse puppetry from The Family International https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz_1rsZ04Ew&t=104s "Everybody can be happy" - The Luvvets 1980s - The Family International Puppet Show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODhlbpJWu4Q Treasure Attic: Let's Have Fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXRb0-34n2g&t=451s 78-79-copy.jpg (957×683) https://media.xfamily.org/docs/fam/heavens-girl/scans/01/78-79-copy.jpg (PDF) Lustful prophet: A psychosexual historical study of the children of God's leader, David Berg. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/232542050_Lustful_prophet_A_psychosexual_historical_study_of_the_children_of_God The Children of God \\ History \ Revolution for Jesus https://childrenofgod.com/en/history/articles/revolution-for-jesus/ https://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Main_Page https://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Flirty_Fishing https://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Love_bombing0 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, the podcast that you're listening to right now, and this is part two of our episode on David Berg. So you know this is a show about the worst people in all of history. If this is the first episode you're listening to, don't. Go listen to part one. Don't be weird. Be cool, like our guest for this week, Ed Helms. Ed, welcome back for part two.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Thank you. If it's anything like part one, wow.

• 0:29Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a lot worse.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Strap in.

• 0:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's gonna be so much worse than part one, Ed. But your podcast, Snafu, gets better every single season, and you're in season three right now, talking about when the government poisoned a bunch of people during prohibition, which is also a lot darker, actually, than your season two was.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  We make it funny. We make it fun. We make it cheeky. But also, it is, it's disturbing on a lot of levels, highly informative, incredibly fun to listen to, a deeply immersive, highly-produced audio experience.

• 1:04Robert Evans?

  About really important history.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  It's not just people chatting.

• 1:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  It's not just one of those dumb shows of people chatting about stuff.

• 1:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah, not a chatty. It's a, you know, we're all in the same business of like, wow, there's a lot of really dark history people should know. I guess we have to make some jokes so they'll listen to it.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25Robert Evans?

  No one's gonna know who Curtis Yarvin is. They're not gonna read all of his weird writing.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't want to do like a horror podcast.

• 1:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Even though that's probably the most accurate treatment of some of these stories.

• 1:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, oh, especially like, yeah, government mass poisoning people. I mean, in season two, when you covered like the citizen breaking of the FBI, at least that's like super inspiring. Like, it's one of the coolest things Americans ever did.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.

• 1:55Robert Evans?

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• 2:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we're not talking about one of the coolest things Americans ever did. We're talking about one of the worst people this country ever produced. David Berg, who at this point is now the leader of a cult called the Children of God. He has started, it is full-on a cult now. He is sexually harassing his followers and forcing them to dress certain ways. He's sleeping with-

• 3:21Speaker 01

  And assaulting them.

• 3:22Robert Evans?

  And assaulting, straight-up assaulting.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:25Robert Evans?

  Now, we had talked about, he began an affair first with this 19-year-old follower, and then with whoever. And Mother Eve, his wife Jane, does not like the fact that he's suddenly like, "You know what God said? You're the old wine, and we need to get new wine." Right? So, she splits. She had been a major leading figure, you know, in the starting when they were teens for Christ, and including during the transition to being children of God. But she leaves very suddenly after this, at the start of the 70s. And this takes him explaining, you know, when you're calling your wife Mother Eve, and you're Moses, and suddenly she's gone, you have to like, you gotta address that, right? You can't just like pretend it didn't happen. Like, where's Mother Eve? Well-

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Where's the mother to the Children of God?

• 4:10Robert Evans?

  Right, right. She seemed pretty important. And he explains to his followers that she had left because, or he had made her leave because she was trying to sabotage him by convincing him he wasn't a prophet and that he didn't pray enough. Obviously, we know the real reason, but that's the reason he gives his followers. We had like a devil infiltrator inside our organization. Now, what started as a defense of his own polygamy had quickly evolved into this cult-wide practice of free love, or at least, as we talked about, it's not in any of the ways that the hippies meant it, free love, but that's what Berg calls it. And while there is, and this is something that draws people in, there's a lot less restriction in the children of God of what cult members can do sexually, right? It's not like the

• 4:55Robert Evans?

  Branch Davidians, where it's just the one guy, right? Berg also largely seems to have used the fact that his followers are increasingly sleeping around with each other as a safety valve to clamp down on unrest, right? While he continues to exercise dictatorial control over the rest of their lives and over the, now, a number of women that he is now sleeping with, right? It's often referred to as a harem, right, that he's got. And so that this is kind of like, this is your one little bit of, it's not even really freedom, but it's kind of the one benefit you get to like, keep people in line with the stuff that's a lot harder to swallow. And he is, again, this is not free, like Zerbi, the, like, young woman who he starts having an affair with is Karen Zerbi. That's like the 19-year-old

• 5:40Robert Evans?

  follower who, three months after he joins, he starts sleeping with. He orders Zerbi to radically change her diet in order to lose weight. He dictates her hairstyle and what clothing she wears on a day-to-day basis. He's exercising like, pretty total control over her life. And as he travels around the country to new children of God, communal houses and farms, he's sleeping with whatever young follower he desires. One of these young women later told Rolling Stone that the act of submitting to Berg in this way was described as a revolutionary action in the cult's literature, right? "You were helping to overthrow the corrupt and evil government, war mongering government, by sleeping with David Berg." And she said, quote, "I was so indoctrinated at the time, I accepted what Berg did sexually

• 6:22Robert Evans?

  without question," right? That this is, what we're doing by submitting to him in this way is actually in some way damaging the military-industrial complex, right? Which is, it's hard to get yourself into that mind state, but it's important to understand that this is what a lot, why a lot of people justify submitting to him, right?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 6:42Robert Evans?

  And one thing that makes this shift kind of less of a massive sea change for members of the children of God than you might imagine was another practice that had been part of their doctrine since the teens for Christ days. And it's, have you ever heard of the term love bombing?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yes, of course.

• 6:58Robert Evans?

  This is where it starts, or one of the two places where it starts. We're talking about like the very origin of that as a concerted tactic, right? And the basic idea behind love bombing was described first by-

• 7:09Speaker 04

  This is the guy?

• 7:10Robert Evans?

  One of, there's two different-

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Did the term come up first in this context?

• 7:15Robert Evans?

  It-

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Or, or just the tactic?

• 7:18Robert Evans?

  As I'll talk about, there's some debate as to where the term came from.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 7:21Robert Evans?

  The first, like, professional, like psychiatrist-type figure to describe this was a Margaret Singer in a book called Cults in Our Mist. And she describes love bombing this way. "As soon as any interest is shown by the recruits, they may be love bombed by the recruiter or other cult members. This process of feigning friendship and interest in the recruit was originally associated with one of the early youth cults, but soon it was taken up by a number of groups as part of their program for luring people in. Love bombing is a coordinated effort, usually under the direction of leadership, that involves long-term members flooding recruits and newer members with flattery, verbal seduction, affectionate, but usually non-sexual touching, and lots of attention for their every remark." And this is a common tactic for cults of all kinds today, and it may have started with

• 8:05Robert Evans?

  the children of God, right? There's debate about this. David Berg's daughter, Deborah, and another early member of the church both write memoirs about their early days in the church, and they use the term love bombing in those memoirs, right? It's kind of unclear to me, does that mean that this was the fir-, because that, that would have been kind of on the timeline, the first time this was practiced, but it's also right around the time the Unification Church is using a similar tactic. And the Unification Church is, like, Singer is the one who coins the term love bombing to describe what the Unification Church is doing. So Berg and the children of God and the Unification Church are kind of pioneering this tactic. And there's some people who will argue that

• 8:46Robert Evans?

  the term love bombing was first used to describe the tactic the children of God were using, right? There's debate about this. It's kind of unclear to me. I don't have enough here to say one way or the other who's right, but they're both, it's fair to say Berg is a pioneer of the tactic. He's one of the very first cult leaders who's using this in a really concerted way. And I found there's a website of former members of the cult called X Family, like X, like the letter X family, but it means like, you know, you, you left the family, which is another name for the cult. And they note that Singer would go on to theorize about like, why love bombing works with an evolutionary psychologist named Keith Henson. And their theory was that this was so effective because there's of this kind of Stone Age

• 9:31Robert Evans?

  human programming people have, basically very early hunter gatherer groups survived because people who did stuff that helped the whole community, even if it was hard or dangerous, got praised. Like everyone would be like, hey, man, it's amazing that you like, did this.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, if you walked in with a, with like a fresh kill, a giant antelope on your shoulder, like, you're gonna get love bombed.

• 9:52Robert Evans?

  Right, people are gonna be like, oh, my God, you're the best, right?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  And by, when they're not doing it cynically, they're doing it gratefully.

• 9:58Robert Evans?

  Cause you saved their lives, right?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:00Robert Evans?

  And so like, you get this, this flood of dopamine when a whole community praises you at once, and that makes it kind of addictive. And that's a really effective evolutionary thing, right? If like, everyone gets addictive to helping the group survive, the group has better odds of surviving, right?

• 10:15Speaker 01

  I'm sure this goes back as a tactic way before, like centuries.

• 10:20Robert Evans?

  Pre-human probably even, to some extent, right?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, not just evolutionarily, I mean, but, but, but, I mean, as a tactic.

• 10:29Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  And even, not even as a, as a, I would, I would think that a lot of people, whether or not they're in a cult, if they're just in a sort of like, uh, some, some kind of social cohesive group, that love bombing can sort of happen organically, and it's not done, no one, no one is, no one is cynically thinking like, we're gonna love bomb this person. It just is a sort of like, thing that happens.

• 10:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Like, like fraternity initiation, or all these things.

• 10:59Robert Evans?

  Friend groups, families, you know?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, political affiliations, like all these kinds of things.

• 11:04Robert Evans?

  I, I think that's such an important point, because with all of every cult dynamic, there is a non-toxic version of it. That's a reason why the cult dynamic works. And like, yeah, like your, your friend group, you know, when you notice like, one of your buddies is having a bad time, they've had trouble in work, like, hey, let's all get together and like, really make like, you know, Jim feel better, right? Like, make him know like, how much we give a shit about him and stuff.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Hold on, is Jim in trouble? Oh, God, again with Jim? Jesus.

• 11:33Robert Evans?

  God damn it.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Jim's a mess. Honestly, I'm done with Jim.

• 11:37Robert Evans?

  I was also kind of thinking, as you brought this up in terms of like earlier places, in ancient Rome, you know, when you had a general who was really successful, they do this thing called a triumph, where the whole city turns out and you're like basically king for a day and everybody has to praise you.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  That's some serious love bombing.

• 11:53Robert Evans?

  Right. That would get you addicted to like the making the empire bigger, right?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So you're right. Like people, you know, this is neither the Unification Church nor Berg invented this thing, but they, they were the first people to kind of develop it as a tactic in a way that got noticed and kind of codified by the scientific community as like, oh, here's what's going on here. Right. But you're, you're absolutely correct that like this has been a thing for a spell. Right. And, you know, what you're doing here is you're getting people addicted to, to the group. And that's a really useful thing. If the next thing you're going to ask them is, hey, you kind of got to cut off all your family and friends who don't join and also sign over your bank accounts. Right? Like if this is, if this is your heroin, it's a lot easier to get you to do that. Right? And that's, that's where the children of God are in the early seventies.

• 12:41Robert Evans?

  And that's part of why once more of this free love rhetoric starts entering and Berg is kind of, he's not giving it away all at once, but it's starting to drip out. It doesn't seem as much of a shift because love bombing is non-sexual, but it kind of gels well with like, and now we're all having sex too. Right? Like, yeah, you can kind of get that. And also, you know, sex is habit forming. So it makes the cult more addictive too. Right? Like all of these things are kind of coming together. And Karen Zerbi is Berg's first test subject for this new tactic. But as time goes on, he initially, you know, she's 19, he's in his 50s. This is, he is very much, he has a lot of power over her. This is very much an abusive dynamic.

• 13:22Robert Evans?

  As time goes on, Zerbi is very smart and she takes more and more power and agency for herself. She's going to wind up leading the cult in a couple of decades. So that is a continual process for her. And very quickly she goes from being this person he is controlling to this person. He is discussing new tactics with and helping to plot out and implement these new tactics. Right. And she's accepting everything he does to her as long as she gets to hold a position of power in the group. One former member later described her as having bought into Berg's new doctrine, heart, mind, body, and soul. Quote, "Her naivete was replaced by a recalcitrant, fierce loyalty to him." Right. And he's going to be very loyal to her, too. He's she's almost

• 14:05Robert Evans?

  the only person he's ever loyal to in his life. Like, in a messed up way, because neither of them are good people, but they might be soulmates, like, in a really evil way, right?

• 14:16Speaker 04

  What about his, uh, old soulmate? What about the ex-wife?

• 14:19Robert Evans?

  She is gone. She is out of the picture. Uh, she did not like this cult. So she is she is away at this point. Um, so once Mother Eve is gone, and Zerbi is kind of the number two at the cult, uh, she ascends and she takes a new name, Maria. All traces of Mother Eve are erased from the growing body of cult literature, and cultists begin calling Zerbi Mama Maria. Right. So you've got Mo or Moses David and Mama Maria, leading the children of God.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  And how old is she?

• 14:48Robert Evans?

  She's like 20, 21 at this point.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 14:52Robert Evans?

  Yep, yep. She is, again, there's a lot complicated here. She starts as a victim, but she's also like, there's a degree to which she's like a prodigy at cult stuff. Like, she gets very good at this very quickly.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  And, uh, and where is this, uh, like, are they still bouncing between West Texas and LA?

• 15:09Robert Evans?

  Yes, they are traveling around and all around. They've got a bunch of different states now. By this point, by 71, 72, there's hundreds of members, right? And so they've got like a dozen or more places that they're traveling between. And they've started drawing attention from national news that's not entirely positive at this point, right? Now, a lot of the physically coercive stuff, like what we talked about with the bras, is not widely known yet. But some of the free love stuff is starting to be. And this, this looks like a synthesis of hippie culture and Christianity, right? Which is not fully accurate, because it's a lot of the the stuff from hippie culture has been twisted to be more abusive. But it seems cool, right? Um, and it seems cooler than Maybe a lot of these other kind of evangelical strains that are picking up stragglers from the hippie movement.

• 15:53Robert Evans?

  You know, sure, David Berg will control your daily life and he'll take your money, but you could be naked whenever you want and you can make love freely, right? Which is a lot better deal for some of these people than they'd gotten prior in their lives, right? The sex aspect of things separates the children from most of these other groups. And prominent people start joining, foremost among them Jeremy Spencer, the original slide guitarist from Fleetwood Mac. In 1971, he shaves his head, joins the cult and starts going by Jonathan.

• 16:22Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 16:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Wait, what was his, what was his name before that?

• 16:27Speaker 04

  Jeremy Spencer.

• 16:28Robert Evans?

  Jeremy Spencer.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Switches to Jonathan.

• 16:31Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Jeremy to Jonathan.

• 16:33Robert Evans?

  Very creative name, no.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Lateral move.

• 16:35Robert Evans?

  Look, he's a slide guitarist. He's not writing the songs, you know? We would never have gotten Silver Springs from Jeremy.

• 16:45Robert Evans?

  So by the time your cult starts poaching members of Fleetwood Mac, it's hard to stay under the radar, right?

• 16:52Robert Evans?

  And I should know, I looked this up, Jeremy Spencer left the band in 1971, which is six years before Rumors was released. Now, does this mean?

• 16:59Speaker 04

  I was about to ask that exact question.

• 17:02Robert Evans?

  Does this mean we might not have gotten rumors or we would have gotten a different version of rumors, you know? These are the kind of historic questions that'll drive you mad if you, if you dwell on them too much, right?

• 17:11Speaker 04

  Literally what I was looking up, I was like, that was my exact question.

• 17:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, he was well ahead of rumors. Yeah.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  Fair enough.

• 17:20Robert Evans?

  And Fleetwood Mac moved around. They, their list of musicians changed a crazy amount before they, you know, got as famous as they eventually got. Anyway.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I wonder if they stayed friends with, with Jeremy slash Jonathan.

• 17:32Robert Evans?

  Jeremy's into some weird stuff now, man.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:35Robert Evans?

  He's not doing as much slide guitar. So by 1972, you got hundreds and hundreds of young people and they're mostly very young, living in dozens of communal homes around the country and in a couple of other countries at this point. People are changing their names, they're cutting off ties to their families under Berg's orders. And this spawns a movement, an anti-children of God movement that's mainly like parents, along with some spouses and other relatives of cult members who are like, hey, like law enforcement, something might be going on here. Like this, this seems bad? Like it seems like maybe something that you should look into? You have to remember though, at this time, number one, cults as a concept aren't as well understood as they're going to become. This is kind of the early days for a lot of

• 18:19Robert Evans?

  popular knowledge and even academic understanding of cults. And I think what the police would have said generally is like, well, what like, they're just preaching. It's like a Christian church. What crime are they committing? Right? They're not communists or anything, you know, like, so there's, there's a degree to which, you know, they're kind of, there's this movement of people who have been hurt by the cult trying to get the warning out. And it's not yet taking off, right? It's gonna start in the mid 70s, but Berg kind of anticipates it, right? He realizes that like, eventually, the more and more people I get, the more I will have law enforcement kind of come down on me. And it's probably time to go underground. So in the early 70s, he publishes a mo letter titled, I got a split. And he tells his followers

• 19:03Robert Evans?

  that he's taking his inner circle, and they're gonna live underground. They're gonna travel secretly from cult location to cult location, but they're hiding from the government now, right? He's kind of preempting, like, I know there's gonna be criminal investigations at some point into the shit I'm doing.

• 19:17Speaker 04

  I just wanna say, I really don't like the phrase mo letter. I don't like it.

• 19:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah, the mo letters, that's what they call them.

• 19:23Speaker 04

  Not into it.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  It's kinda, it's kinda spunky. It's like, it's like, hey, we got another mo letter, we got another mo letter.

• 19:31Robert Evans?

  The mo letter. He's hiding from the FBI now. Isn't that cool?

• 19:34Speaker 04

  It doesn't do it for me.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Surely, there was some, like, the way you're sort of describing it, it sounds like he just sort of sensed that.

• 19:45Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Maybe he would get investigated, but, but if you're gonna go underground, I mean, he must have caught wind of some, like, serious implications starting to, there are some walls closing in.

• 19:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah. You know, I think some of it is that he is genuinely, he's got a kind of cunning, and he just knows this is where it's gonna go. I do wonder, you're looking at like, L. Ron Hubbard, kind of around this period, also flees the US, right? Because he's getting investigated for some stuff and goes to London. And I wonder how much of it is like him being like, oh, at some point, that'll happen to me, I should probably bounce. Cause he also flees to London, right? That's when he leaves the US, he goes to the UK. And he's never going to re-enter the United States.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And you know they're, they're, they ain't paying taxes.

• 20:27Robert Evans?

  Oh, God, no, no.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  At the very least, it's gonna be some IRS hell to pay.

• 20:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and it's one of those like, yeah, they're a church, but you're still supposed to file something to at least let them know what you're, what you're not paying on. And I don't think there's much of that going on. So they go to the UK with the plan of like, you know, we're just gonna kind of hang out here until we commit enough crimes here that we have to leave the UK. Their decision of where to flee was largely made by the fact that one of their first really wealthy followers, who's this British multimillionaire. I haven't found his name in any of the literature, but this very wealthy British man joins the cult. And because he's powerful, he doesn't sign over all of his assets, right? And Berg doesn't, doesn't like force the matter, right?

• 21:16Robert Evans?

  But he does give the cult an empty factory, which they turn in using some of his money into their London headquarters, right? They build it out in the housing. And it's likely, and there's a little bit of speculation from me on this, but it's, this is based on stuff that they do later and codify later as a tactic. That this rich guy who gives them this London headquarters is rewarded for what he does by being given access to a lot of young female cult members, right? And that this kind of, the fact that this works, that like, oh, this really makes this guy into us, I think is going to, it's going to influence something they do later that, that we're building towards.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  This is getting very Epstein-y.

• 21:56Robert Evans?

  Oh my, you have, you have predicted where this is going, Ed.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  Okay, alright.

• 22:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, although Epstein, never on this scale, at least as far as we know. Although I will say most of these people are adults at this point. By 1973, Berg's growing free love ideas had spread out across the network of communal living spaces in the US and now the UK. Again, this started in like a decentralized fashion, but in 73, he makes the policy official, publishing his first MO letter to officially link the children of God to free love. Quote, "Thank God for the sexual liberation movement. It is beginning to relieve us from some of our former taboos and frustrations of the past." And his preaching had taken a more apocalyptic tone by this point. By the end of his time in the US, Berg had become convinced that California was going

• 22:44Robert Evans?

  to suffer an apocalyptic earthquake, which would send the whole state sliding into the ocean, like in that Warren Zevon song. But, you know, he's also believes that like, yeah, the world's ending, the Antichrist is coming, and that's what he's preaching about, right? And part of his justification for why we need to adopt sexual liberation is like, hey, the world's about to end, why not? You know? Like, um, the fact that this works causes him to get bolder, and he merges this kind of liberatory rhetoric with his preaching. Subsequent MO letters have titles like Revolutionary Sex and Revolutionary Love-Making. And Revolutionary Sex, he devotes a lot of time to arguing that the Bible is fine with incest and that marriages of brothers and sisters, mothers and sons, and even fathers and daughters are okay, right?

• 23:28Robert Evans?

  He is not openly preaching pedophilia at this point, but that's not that far from it, right?

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Wow. Openly preaching incest.

• 23:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Dark.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  I mean, if you're openly preaching incest, you're probably openly preaching pedophilia, because there's very, you're not also saying incest is fine if you wait till they're of legal age.

• 23:51Robert Evans?

  Right, yeah. And I think that is like, there's a little bit of debate about when he starts, because like, we don't have perfect context, because he's, he's got his inner circle that he tests stuff out on before it gets out to the wider cult. So there is probably an extent to which he's starting to talk about the pedophilia to his inner circle at this point, you know, that's not perfectly clear. But you see this kind of thing over and over again, where like, he'll start kind of testing the waters, right? And I think this incest thing is him testing the waters with the broader international cult about like, I'm going to start preaching about pedophilia, right? But I want to like, prep the ground here.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  God, how big is, how many people are we talking at this point?

• 24:33Robert Evans?

  We are talking by 1973, 2,400 full-time members, right? So these are people who live in cult housing. They've got 140 housing projects in 40 countries around the world by 1973. Now that's full-time members. There's thousands more who haven't joined. They're not living, they don't follow, but they'll buy the literature. Right, they'll listen to him, right? Cause he's putting out like radio stuff, he's putting out tapes, he's putting out comic books. And so they're like fans and a lot of the money comes from them. And then there's this 2,400 person hardcore of full-time members, right? And again, the inner circle he's got gets the most and earliest versions of all of the like really radical stuff he's preaching. And then the full-time members get stuff a little bit later.

• 25:18Robert Evans?

  And it takes a lot longer for stuff to percolate out to the people who are just kind of contributing money, but they're not members of the church, right? He is, you know, he puts out a mo letter around this time called One Wife, which argues that the nuclear family is ungodly and he orders any such families within the church to be broken up. Uh, husbands and wives are separated from their children. Um, they are forced to, husbands and wives are also separated from each other. So if you like have a family and you're all living in a communal house together, husband will be sent to one house and David will pair him with other women there. A wife will be sent to a different house. David will pair her with other men there. And then the kids will be sent to be raised communally away from their parents, right?

• 26:01Robert Evans?

  This is deeply abusive. It's also, as a cult leader, what's the biggest danger to you? It's that people are more loyal to their family than you, right? So you break up families, you know?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting, like the, uh, the manipulative payoff of so much cult activity.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Is clear, like, from the outside. It's just like, like what you just said. It, it makes perfect sense that you would want to, to keep cult members from, uh, from gaining intimacy and loyalty to, to their families because it would undermine their commitment to him. Um, how clear do you think, like, just generally speaking, when a cult leader mandates something like that, do you think they're aware of the reason they're doing that? Or are they just sort of, they're, they're so steeped in their own benevolence or belief in their own benevolence that, that they're just kind of like doing these irrational things and justifying it with insane ways?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  And it's not, it's not the sort of cynical tactic that we, we see it to be from the outside.

• 27:11Robert Evans?

  You know, Ed, I think that is like, in a lot of ways, the million dollar question with this stuff. And like, I would be lying if I said like, this is definitely the answer. I'll give you what I think is happening here.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 27:21Robert Evans?

  I think that today, because there's a lot of documentation about different cults in the past, there's a lot of academic literature on how they work and like, why cult dynamics work. I think a lot of modern cult leaders are aware of what they're doing and understand technically what works and what doesn't, and are going about things methodically. Maybe not, not all of them, but a lot of them. Berg, because there's less of that written, I think this is instinctual to him on some, to some extent. He's got cult leader instincts, right? And I think he may just, this, this all kind of real, like, the, I think a lot of this is, there's a degree to which like, he and Zerbi are strategizing some of this. So they are consciously building some tactics.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but narcissism is a very powerful, kind of like, just, uh, a powerful mechanism for toxic behavior that is sort of not understood by the narcissist themselves.

• 28:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And I think there is a lot of that going. Like, I don't, I, he's certainly not conscious of the psychological underpinnings of everything that he's doing.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 28:20Robert Evans?

  Right? There's, there is planning, but yeah, I think he is, I think he's kind of got really good instincts for running a cult, you know? Just like some people have good instincts for, I don't know, different sports or whatever. He's like, he's like one of those kids that gets drafted at 14 for the NBA. It's like, oh my God, David Berg, you're gonna be a cult leading all-star.

• 28:36Speaker 04

  You can't get drafted at 14 in the NBA.

• 28:39Robert Evans?

  Okay. Sophie's the one who knows about sports here. Uh, I shouldn't have even tried.

• 28:43Speaker 04

  That was embarrassing.

• 28:45Robert Evans?

  Yep. And that's why I'm gonna throw the ads right now, Sophie, to distract everyone.

• 28:49Speaker 04

  There we go.

• 28:52Robert Evans?

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• 29:52Robert Evans?

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• 30:29Robert Evans?

  So we're back. So by '73, again, they're in 40 different countries around the world, which means Berg and his inner circle have the freedom to travel underground indefinitely and move to new established living quarters with his inner circle in different countries once the law starts to catch on in one place. So they start to get a hint that like, maybe the UK is about to investigate us. Let's go to, hey, for the last year, we've had them prepping a house for us in, you know, somewhere in the Balkans, right? Or, you know, in the Canary Islands. Let's head over there now. And he's actually got basically like advanced teams moving out ahead of him, making sure places are set up for him. So a lot of this is very methodical. In 1974, buoyed by the success they'd experienced so far,

• 31:14Robert Evans?

  Berg and Zerbi cook up a new tactic to raise money and increase the numbers of their cult, and they call it flirty fishing. Per an article on the X Family website, I want to quote like what this is. Flirty fishing was a subset of the family's love bombing activities and involved the use of sexual attraction and intercourse to win converts and favors. Female members were told to be God's whores and hookers for Jesus. And soon after its launch as a method of witnessing, sex was given to complete strangers in combination with the request of a donation or for a required fee in line with escort servicing. So this is, he has started prostituting the female members of his cult to raise money, right?

• 31:58Robert Evans?

  There's both a degree of this is how, if we can find rich people, right? We can get them to give us a lot of money if we can make them fall in love with one of our members. We can also just, he's basically an intercontinental pimp, right? Making money for the church that way. And also, obviously, this leads to pregnancies. And this, the goal is that these, the kids that come out of these liaisons will be the second generation of the cult. He calls them Jesus babies, right?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Wow. Wow. Yeah. There, sex trafficking sounds a lot more fun if you call it flirty fishing.

• 32:33Robert Evans?

  Yes. It does. And to give you an idea of like how big a business this is, by the fall of 1998, records show that the cult kept records that showed that members, like female members of the cult, had quote unquote, "loved" 223,311 fish.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  What?

• 32:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Well, how many people had done that much loving?

• 32:58Robert Evans?

  Uh, several hundred. Uh, we, we have in one case, like, we know that Zerbi around this period, just when they're in Tenerife, which is kind of when they start building this tactic, uh, has sex 137 times with 18 different, like, men on the island as she's sort of like experimenting with how this is going to work.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 33:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Wait, where's Tenerife?

• 33:19Robert Evans?

  Tenerife is in the Canary Islands.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Okay, wow, wow.

• 33:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It's, it's like the scale of it. When you like, put that out, it's like, it's nuts. Like, this is, like, it, I think there's, there's a chance here that, like, this guy is the most prolific pimp in all of history. Like, there's not, there couldn't be that many people who could compete with that kind of numbers, right? He's at least gotta be in the running for it, you know, at this point. Um, it's just like a startlingly large scale that they're working on. And this is where a lot of their money comes from. And it, it becomes such a defining practice of the cult that even it's modern day, because the, the children of God is still around, and he's dead now, they have to address that this happened on their website. And they describe the tactic not as an active attempt to seduce and manipulate

• 34:06Robert Evans?

  people, but as a response to, quote, "the sexual liberality of the time period," which, quote, "presented the possibility of trying out a more personal and intimate form of witnessing." And, you know, you can take that however you want. Um, I think that what's happening here is this is not about liberation. This is about, number one, Berg exercising more control. And it's also about him making money in order to fund his lifestyle, right? Like, this is, it's a natural evolution of everything that they have been doing and of his need for control.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Do we have the Mo letters that, that

• 34:40Robert Evans?

  Oh, yes.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  That sort of kicked this into gear?

• 34:42Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Because that, that would, that would sort of, uh, that would help clear up any of the spin on the, on the present day website.

• 34:50Robert Evans?

  Yes. So Berg himself, in a Mo letter, scripturally justified flirty fishing. Uh, he quoted one John 4:8, which stated, "God is love." And then I, I want to quote from DavidBerg.com to kind of describe how he, he goes in to justify this logically. Since God is love- And his son Jesus is the physical manifestation and embodiment of God's love for humanity. Then we as Christian recipients of that love are in turn responsible to be living samples to others of God's great all encompassing love. Taking the Apostle Paul's writings literally, that saved Christians are dead to the law of Moses through faith in Jesus. Berg arrived at the rather shocking conclusion that Christians were therefore free through God's grace.

• 35:31Robert Evans?

  To go to great lengths to show the love of God to others, even as far as meeting their sexual needs. And that's how they're describing it. Again, they're charging money for this. But his attitude is that like, well, sex is a need like food or water. And so it's actually unethical if you refuse to give your body to someone for the church, right? Gross. Cause they need the sex and the church needs the money.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  I mean, the, the exchange of money kinda just like,

• 36:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Like negates all of this. Like this is just like,

• 36:04Robert Evans?

  You would,

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Like, like even if, even if, even if you were to say like, actually, there is some theological basis for this.

• 36:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Like, once the money is exchanged, doesn't that just undermine all of it?

• 36:15Robert Evans?

  You would think so, and I think you and I can say logically it should, but I think here's what's going on, right? It's normal in this subculture, this evangelical subculture, for you to go preach the word and take donations and live off of that. And they're arguing sex like this is a form of preaching. Why shouldn't they take donations?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  You know, he missed his, his true calling. He's a great cult leader, like,

• 36:38Robert Evans?

  He's great.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Like, like among, like among the best, but I will say like, he might make an even better lawyer.

• 36:43Robert Evans?

  He could have been an awesome lawyer.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  This is, this is the interpretation and manipulation of text and prose to serve a very specific outcome. And it is a deeply cynical practice.

• 36:57Robert Evans?

  It's so cynical.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  That, that lawyers are so, like, the most brilliant lawyers have an uncanny knack for. And I, I would posit he might.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Have been a better lawyer than a cult leader.

• 37:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I also think maybe marketing, like I can almost imagine this is like a Don Draper scene where he's like, let me put them out to you.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:19Robert Evans?

  Prostitution, but preaching, you know?

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:22Robert Evans?

  Like, um, so obviously, yeah, he is, he's, he, this is, you know, pimping, right? Like, that's what he's doing here. And there's a lot that's, that's abusive about this, but it's all justified, kind of in the way that we discussed. And what is shocking to me is while they do have these scriptural justifications for the fact that they are now, like, doing prostitution to fund the cult, they have these scriptural justifications, but they're also straight up about what they're doing. The cult has a newspaper and they publish comic books, including ones that explicitly advise female members to become hookers for Jesus. And Sophie's gonna show you an image from one of these comics. It's literally just like, because it's, it's illustrating flirty fishing. There's like a woman who's a mermaid, she's got like a hook through her, and she's like

• 38:06Robert Evans?

  holding a man who's naked by the shoulders, and it just says "Hooker for Jesus" above her.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Wow, like, just hooker.

• 38:14Robert Evans?

  Right, hooker. But language is just hooker, yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  There's literally a hook through her body.

• 38:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I am not, that's not us editorializing, that's how they describe it.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 38:26Robert Evans?

  It's wild.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  And, and a very erotic, uh, presentation. I mean, that, that's just explicitly pornographic.

• 38:34Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 38:35Robert Evans?

  And there's a lot of that.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  By the way, I just wanna say, I do not, I did not mean to impugn the, the profession of lawyer.

• 38:43Robert Evans?

  The legal profession?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  I, I think, I know and love a lot of lawyers, um, but it is, uh, the, there, there is a special talent in that regard that I was just calling out.

• 38:53Robert Evans?

  You can use that skill for good or for evil, right?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Exactly, thank you, well said.

• 38:58Robert Evans?

  It's like, you can, you could become a cult leader, or you could become like a really good actor or musician, right? And make stuff that people love, right? Like, the same skills, kind of apply?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  I don't think I could be a cult, if you're implying, like, actors-

• 39:13Speaker 01

  I think there's a, there's a, well, I don't know. Yeah, I'll give it a try.

• 39:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah, give it a shot. Ever too late. There's like, there's types of like, you know, Mick Jagger, if he'd wanted to create a cult. Obviously, he never did. I'm not saying he was a bad person, but he could have, right? Like, he's got that kind of like, people loved watch, like, following him, right?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:33Robert Evans?

  Like, there's that piece of it, right? And most people who aren't bad are just like, oh, you know, being a rock star is great. I'll just do that, right? Some people are like, I need a little more. I need to absolutely destroy thousands of people's lives, right?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:47Robert Evans?

  But there's like, yeah, pieces of it. And I, one of the things I found when researching this for an idea of like, how direct this is, is a comic book called Heaven's Girl, which is like, it's half illustrated tract and it's half text. Do you, have you ever heard of the Left Behind books?

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 40:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Speaker 01

  I mean, it became a TV series.

• 40:05Robert Evans?

  It became a TV series. There's a movie with Nicolas Cage that they made that I, it didn't do well enough to make sequels of, but like, yeah, these are pretty prominent. It's, this is telling the same story, right? Where it's the apocalypse, right? The Christians get raptured, or a lot of people get raptured. The, the UN-style Antichrist leader comes and takes over. And it's following this like, female lead character who is like, basically a prophet and trying to like, preach the word of God in this increasingly, this world that's falling apart. There's some kind of racist panels where like, we see militants in the street who look like Black Panthers who are like, but anyway, there's a lot of that kind of stuff in it. But there's this, it's a very normal like, Left Behind kind of thing where it's like,

• 40:49Robert Evans?

  okay, so you've got the Antichrist coming to power and he's cracking down and punishing all of the Christians. And you've got this lady who's preaching. And there's a segment in the middle of it where she gets like, arrested by a bunch of the Antichrist troops. And they're ordered to execute her and then decide, let's rape her instead. And then the, she decides, no, no, no, I'm totally down with this. I'll do this to try to, I'll have sex with all of these soldiers to try to convince them to go to Christ? And so there's like a descriptive pornographic scene of her having sex with all these guys and preaching to them. And then it like structurally means nothing. None of them come to Jesus. She like escaped, they throw her to a lion and she escapes because of God.

• 41:33Robert Evans?

  So it's both like really pornographic, but also just like unnecessary. Like there's, there's nothing that happens as a result of her doing this. She doesn't win any souls or save herself. So it's both this like weirdly gratuitous thing of like, actually it's awesome to be a woman in this position. That's very gross. Um, and it's also just like narratively unnecessary. Um, but this is the kind of way they're talking about it, right? We're like, if you were in this position, the right thing to do is give your body up to be a witness for God. Right? And that's, they're very explicit about it, right? There's not any kind of like hiding it within the cult materials. They made a comic book of it, which I am not showing you pages from because it is just straight up pornography. Um, in a lot of segments here.

• 42:16Robert Evans?

  Uh, and by the way, porn is not forbidden within the children of God. They are putting it on in a lot of their communal households. They're showing it to kids, especially in some of like the internal, like closer to Berg places. So like

• 42:32Speaker 04

  Gross.

• 42:32Robert Evans?

  Things are starting to escalate in this regard, right? Um, in 1973, uh, Berg publishes a tract called Come On Ma, Burn Your Bra. And this is in response, they'd been doing the bra burning thing for a while to a casual follower, so not one of his full-time members, who had like written him a letter being like, I like a lot of what you have to say, but I'm kind of uncomfortable with some of the revolutionary sex stuff. And his response to her in this tract is wild. First off, in all caps, he says, "We have a sexy God and a sexy religion and a very sexy leader with an extremely sexy young following!" Exclamation point. And then continues in lowercase letters now, "So if you don't like sex, you'd better get out while you can still save your bra.

• 43:16Robert Evans?

  Salvation sets us free from the curse of clothing and the shame of nakedness. We're as free as Adam and Eve in the garden before they ever sin. If you're not, you're not fully saved." And yeah, this is like the rhetoric he's sending out to people not in the cult that like actually without the sex stuff, God won't recognize you as one of his own. Like this is a requirement now. So things have escalated pretty quickly from 70 to 74, you could say. Now, Berg's living underground at this point, as we've talked about, he's got this inner circle that's mostly a harem of young women, which at this point includes a teenager named Rachel, who he had previously conducted her wedding to a male member of the cult two years earlier, and then took her away from him to marry himself. He does

• 44:01Robert Evans?

  this a bunch of times, right? And he's also just picking followers to have sex with that he doesn't marry, and their urge to write letters to the Family News, the cult's magazine, praising Berg, who they call dearest precious dad for his lovemaking skills gratuitously. Like, again, I don't, I don't feel the need to quote it. I can just tell you, it's like very pornographic, the way these followers will write about him as dearest dad. And this is just in their newsletter.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 44:28Robert Evans?

  And, you know, as time has gone on, by the mid 70s, Zerbi has gone from definitely a victim to definitely a co-leader. She had started as one of the most prolific fishers, right? Berg had bragged that when they were in Tenerife, she'd again had sex with 18 workers at their hotel and quote, "Started a lovemaking revolution amongst the help. It was a totally new ministry for us." But Zerbi by this point was also a major driving force in cult doctrine. And she, she kind of seems to have helped Berg decide that he needs an heir, right? He's getting old and he needs to, he needs to appoint an heir to lead the cult in its battle against the Antichrist in case he isn't around for that, right? And he's got

• 45:12Robert Evans?

  kids, but none of them, they're all disappointments. His son has committed suicide by this point, probably as a result of the abuse that he endured in the cult. And none of his, you know, he's not going to give it to his daughters, right? Like, they're not going to be leading the cult from him. So he needs a kid to appoint as Messiah. And for whatever reason, I think just because of how his own kids had worked out, he decides, I shouldn't be the biological father of this kid, but Zerbi will be the biological mother, right? And I'll raise this kid as a work of art to be the Messiah of mankind. So in 1975, Zerbi, Mother Maria, gets pregnant from a hotel waiter named Carlos.

• 45:56Robert Evans?

  Her son is declared the Messiah by Berg and born on January 25th, 1975. His name is Richard Peter Rodriguez, or Ricky, but he's also called David Ito, like Little David, right? And he's immediately made into an object of worship for the cult, right? They've got this whole media apparatus at the time, and they spin it up to turn him into like a, like every aspect of his childhood into this like drama of like what a, what a heroic baby our Messiah is, and he's going to save us from the Antichrist when he grows up.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  In what, what form will this saving take? Will he be sacrificed to God? Will he be a warrior that, that vanquishes the, the bad people like?

• 46:44Robert Evans?

  I think like a spiritual warrior.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Or just a leader.

• 46:48Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's kind of like, he's going to turn the Antichrist's flock against him and basically pray him away, right? Like, I think that's kind of the vibe of what's supposed to happen here. Per an article, that article in Rolling Stone, Ricky was the prince, and this is them, them like talking to a member of the cult. Ricky was the prince. We all grew up reading comic books about his life. Comics hundred strong slavishly depicted every detail of Ricky's life as a toddler and were eagerly devoured by the growing ranks of the children of God faithful around the globe, by now numbering more than 3,000 members, living in 228 communal homes. So they've got this kind of media empire built around this kid, and they're really

• 47:28Robert Evans?

  building him up as he's going to be the future, he's going to be leading once David dies. But they're also not actually raising him, right? Zerbi, his biological mom, is so busy running the cult, she's traveling around constantly, she has no desire to spend time around this kid or raise him. And Berg, who talked about like, I'm going to raise this kid, he's going to be my work of art, is mostly having sex, right? So he doesn't want to spend any time actually teaching this kid how to like, read or whatever, right? That's not something David Berg's going to do. So he has the other young women in his harem raise David Ito, right? And so this kid, this Messiah, grows up in luxury and comfort, but he's deeply confused, and he's increasingly abused.

• 48:11Robert Evans?

  And this is not known to anyone outside of the cult inner circle at the time. But as I'd stated, like Berg had sexually abused his daughter Faithy and attempted to abuse his daughter Deborah, like earlier in his life. And there's some evidence that like, maybe he had done that at other points, we don't really know. But now that he's got Ricky, he becomes increasingly comfortable acting without any guardrails and pushing his belief that children are sexual beings, right? That is what he is preaching increasingly to the cult. In the Moe Letter, One Wife, which I mentioned earlier, he had noted that it was immoral to love your flesh and blood kids more than you loved God's children of God's family.

• 48:52Robert Evans?

  And you could see how like, initially, you might not pick up on what he's saying. You might just be him being like, oh, well, yeah, I shouldn't, like, it's immoral for me to think that my kids are more important than any other kids, because God doesn't feel that way. But also what he's saying is that like, it's immoral to see a child as different from an adult, right? Which is going to lead in some very bad directions, right? But again, you see this way, he kind of like drips out.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  I don't get that.

• 49:21Robert Evans?

  What he's going to drop.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  What's the, explain that, taking that from, from what, what he said, or from what you just explained?

• 49:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah, so what he's saying is like, it's immoral, basically, to treat your flesh and blood children differently from anyone else, right? Just because they're your kids.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  From anyone else, not from other children.

• 49:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. But when he says children of God, he's talking about everyone, right?

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Oh, I see, I see.

• 49:43Robert Evans?

  We're all children of God.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 49:45Robert Evans?

  And so, but, and so one way you can read that is like, oh, yeah, well, God wouldn't, doesn't think my family's important, more important than any other family. But also what David's saying is like, no, no, no, literally, kids are not different from adults, right? And this is kind of how he's dripping that out to the broader cult before he kind of comes all the way down on it, right? So through the seventies, his cult grows to three and then 4,000 full-time members and beyond that, and he continues to push the line that sex is a need like food or water. In the 1980s, with this groundwork laid, he begins to push the idea that children born into the cult, which he had begun calling the family, are not exempt from this, right? Like, everyone has a responsibility to fulfill people's sexual needs, including kids.

• 50:31Robert Evans?

  One of the followers in his inner circle, Sarah Kelly, is among the first members of the cult to understand what this means. She was in his kind of harem thing. She'd been a very successful flirty fisher, and she was helping to raise David Ito. But she also has a seven-year-old daughter who she gives to David Berg to be a member of his harem, right?

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 50:49Robert Evans?

  And this is kind of kept secret. He's not telling the broader cult about this yet, right? And the way he's going to finally reveal how everyone should be acting is by putting out this book about his son, the Messiah. He publishes a book. He goes to this printing house in Spain, and he has thousands of copies made for all of the different cult installations around the world of The Story of David Ito, which is a 762-page biography of his kid, the Messiah, who's not even a teenager yet, right? And it's meant to act as a manual for how to raise kids. And this book extensively documents how they have been sexually abusing little Ricky, David Ito, for the early stages of

• 51:33Robert Evans?

  his childhood. Like, it is, it is like, there's straight-up child pornography in here, right? There's photos of Ricky, aged 17 months to three years of age, in bed with young women who are naked, and he is showed being physically coerced into sexual contact with them, right? Like, this is straight-up child pornography. That they are, it is now like, required reading for everyone in the cult. And the understanding is, you're supposed to do to your kids what's being done to the Messiah, right? In 1985, when Ricky is 10, lists of his sexual availability are published in group homes on what are called sharing schedules. So they are, like, literally ordering, basically, people to molest the Messiah, right?

• 52:18Robert Evans?

  And as a result, each other. Because they're now this free-love thing-

• 52:22Speaker 01

  His availability, meaning people can sort of like, make appointments to have sex with David?

• 52:27Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  David Ito?

• 52:28Robert Evans?

  Yes, as he's toured around, right?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 52:33Robert Evans?

  And this is, they're doing this with, like, these sharing schedules are for everyone, right? The free love thing has turned into you are being scheduled and ordered to have sex with this person at this time, right? Like, that's what they're doing, but they're not, they're including, you know, Ricky and then other kids in the cult in this, right? So this is, we've gotten to like, this is as bad as it can get, pretty much, right? Like, that's, I mean, this is just like nightmare fuel stuff. Ricky is born into this, and he'll talk as a young adult, once he leaves the cult, that like, "I didn't understand that this was bad at first," right? Because how could he? You know? This is the only world he's born into.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 53:15Robert Evans?

  He doesn't go to school, he has no contact with people outside of this. But he does recognize from a young age that some of these adults who are ordered to molest him seem uncomfortable. So he starts to realize, like, this seems like there's something that's not right here.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. He's picking up on the humanity of

• 53:30Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  of these people, probably better than they are themselves.

• 53:35Robert Evans?

  Right. Yeah, because they've been, they've let themselves become so lost in this thing. And, yeah, it's, it's, it's really tragic. This is a bad time to throw to ads, but there's not gonna be a good time in the rest of this episode. This ad is brought to you by ViiV Healthcare, the makers of Dovato, Dolutegravir, Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Dovato is right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Dovato is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Dovato.

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• 55:31Robert Evans?

  And we're back. So, you know, I think it's clear at this point, by 1985, David Berg, there's no guardrails. There's no governor or break on this guy. He is doing whatever and he is completely broken with any reality outside his own desires. Right? He's enshrined in 1985, child sex abuse as official doctrine among the children of God.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  And has this made its way to law enforcement? I mean, like, are the, like, this book and the, surely people have defected from the cult at this point?

• 56:04Speaker 04

  There's so much physical evidence.

• 56:06Robert Evans?

  It's beginning to. It's starting to. And they're going to have to officially, the first time they officially deny distributing child pornography will be, or having sex with kids, will be in 1988. Right? So, three years after this. So, you imagine it is beginning to filter out. This is a distributed movement. It's not clear where everything's happening. So, there's like, and law enforcement is very sluggish to get involved. But yes, stuff is starting to get out. But it's gonna, as a spoiler, they're never really going to get the hammer dropped on them the way you'd expect, given what's going on here.

• 56:39Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ.

• 56:40Robert Evans?

  And some of this just has to do with the fact that, like, child molestation and child pornography, were not punished as much in this period as you would expect. Right? And that's just a reality, I mean, even outside of this. So to quote from Dr. Stephen Kent's study here about like how he kind of rolls this out to the wider cult. "In 1985, an example of sex between adults and youth occurred in a suggestive illustration and accompanying text, showing Berg in bed with two women, one of whom was apparently in her mid-teens. More explicit and controversial was the widely circulated publication entitled My Little Fish, which contained photographs of an adult woman orally copulating and manually manipulating a boy who was just over three years old."

• 57:21Robert Evans?

  So again, this is, there's no argument that people don't know what's going on, right? Like, this is child pornography. And at the same time, they're not, again, they're not getting cracked down on yet. They're traveling freely around cult properties across the world, from Europe to Asia to South Africa. The cult has gotten very wealthy, largely under Zerbi's guidance, and they've become a media empire. And even outside of members of the cult or even the religious sect, right? They start producing children's television for a general audience in the mid-'80s. The same year that Berg circulated that child pornography book about his Messiah kid, he

• 58:01Robert Evans?

  starts producing a TV show called Life with Grandpa, which ran in different local TV networks. It's like a puppet-based show, almost like a knockoff Muppet-type deal or whatever, like much lower production values, obviously, that depicts a sanitized version of David Berg or Grandpa, teaching lessons to children each week. And it's innocuous at the time, right? It passes for innocuous at the time. But when you know what we know, it's much more upsetting. And so he's gonna show you a little clip from this TV show produced by this cult with, like, David Berg doing a voice called "Life with Grandpa."

• 58:35Speaker 07

  (Singing) Life with Grandpa, what can be more fun? Living where there's love for everyone. Learning lessons each and every day. Learning from the Word of God and light to guide our way. Life with Grandpa, what can be more fun? That is why we are happy, that is why that we sing. It's because of Jesus, he's Everything. We have a purpose in each new day. Learning how to share and give God's love away. Life with Grandpa, what could be more fun? Living where there's love for everyone.

• 59:18Speaker 07

  Learning lessons each and every day. Learning from the word of God, the light to guide our way. Life with-

• 59:27Robert Evans?

  Alright, I think we're probably, that's enough there.

• 59:29Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ, yeah.

• 59:32Robert Evans?

  It's up, like, the stuff about, like, sharing love, all the physical contacts, like, you might, you wouldn't have caught it on TV in 85. But when you know what's going on, it's like, oh no.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 59:43Speaker 01

  Also, very interesting choice to cut away to a puppet cameraman.

• 59:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, fascinating call.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  To break the fourth wall, but with, but stay within the puppet universe.

• 59:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's so wild.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Ah, that was, that was, because it was almost like, by the way, like, filming you is, is fine too.

• 1:00:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Like, like, don't, like-

• 1:00:08Robert Evans?

  Don't think that's weird, yeah.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Like, don't think people pointing cameras at you while you're being intimate with grandpa is, is weird.

• 1:00:16Robert Evans?

  That's a really good point. I hadn't even thought of that, but you're absolutely right.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  It's just sort of like, normalizing the presence of a camera operator.

• 1:00:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  Because it's within the, it's within the puppet show.

• 1:00:28Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  That is so weird.

• 1:00:30Robert Evans?

  And you're right, they are, as I'll talk about later, they do film, like, sex acts between adults and kids. Yeah, like, that's gotta be part of what's going on there.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  God.

• 1:00:39Robert Evans?

  And I had other clips of this and other shows, I don't think we really need to see them all. They're all upsetting in context, but like, kind of innocuous if you don't know what's going on. And they, there's multiple TV shows that they make during this period of time.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  I will say, the, the, the jingle, the song, for a kids' show jingle, and, and speaking as a kid who was, you know, a kid at that time, like, that's like a perfect jingle. That's a perfect, that's like a perfect kids' show song, theme song.

• 1:01:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah, the production values are like-

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  Very, it's a very, it's a small world.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And it's like, all of their shows are like that, where it's like, yeah, this could have just been a normal TV studio making this, right?

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  All the more sinister, because it's so good and cheerful.

• 1:01:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And they, they produce multiple shows. There's one called The Love-its, L U V V E T T S, uh, made in the Philippines, uh, that's another puppet-like show. And ultimately Treasure Attic, which I think either starts or at least runs until the early 90s. And it's kind of like a cross between Blues Clues and Lamb Chop. There's like, there's like, human beings and puppets together. And it's like, yeah, it's fairly good production values for the time.

• 1:01:54Robert Evans?

  So they're, you know, making actual TV, uh, here, while they're also running this massive pimping and child molestation ring. Meanwhile, Berg has made it explicitly clear to his followers that not only is incest okay with God, it's actually required, right? Peter Wilkinson's Rolling Stone article quotes Berg writing in a mo letter that, "I don't know what the hell age has to do with it, when God made them able to enjoy it practically from the time they're born." And yeah, he starts encouraging members to have sex with their children, right? Both like, group sex and to molest their own kids. Yes.

• 1:02:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It's all, I think a lot of this is like, we've got to break every natural boundary, right? In order to keep this unnatural thing, this cult going. And in part because now everyone's complicit, right?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  That's, yeah, a great, great point. It's a little bit, uh, yeah, it's like, it's kind of mob-like in that way.

• 1:02:53Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Like, once you're, once you're complicit, you have to be loyal.

• 1:02:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Uh, or else you're, you're going down.

• 1:03:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah. The real world will never take you now. You know what you did to your kids, right? So when Ricky, the Messiah, is 12, Berg appoints an adult woman named Bonnie to be his girlfriend. Most of what he called raising Ricky seems to have just been making Ricky watch and participate in group sex acts with Berg, right? There are videos of girls aged nine on up stripping and dancing for Berg and Ricky. One of these girls, Armandria, was molested by Berg at age 13, and she and Ricky become friends, right? In part because they're enduring a lot of this together. In 1987, with Berg's insistence, Ricky is

• 1:03:40Robert Evans?

  made to participate with his, like, his mother molests him, right? At Berg's orders.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Zerbi.

• 1:03:48Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Zerbi, yes. This is apparently, there's debate as to whether or not this is the first time Zerbi, like, molests a child, but, you know, I don't know that it matters all that much for our purposes, like, she does this, right? And again, Ricky is kind of gradually realizing how bad all this is, but because of the bubble he lives in, it's not immediately clear. In that Rolling Stone article, Wilkinson writes, "As he moved through his teen years, Ricky began to feel weighed down, not just by the unwelcome scrutiny brought upon him by the distribution of the David Ito book, but also by his doubts over Berg's increasingly erratic behavior. He was particularly upset with how Berg treated his granddaughter, Mary Berg, known in the family as Minnie." And Berg had started

• 1:04:33Robert Evans?

  molesting Minnie, his granddaughter, when she was like, an early adolescent, at a cult facility in the Philippines where they're producing one of their first children's TV shows.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Is this, would this be Faithy's child? Or do we know?

• 1:04:46Robert Evans?

  I, I, I think it actually might be Deborah's kid.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I should have checked on that. I don't actually know 100%. He makes her live in a walk-in closet next to his bedroom, and when Ricky turns 12, Berg tries to make them... Have a kid together so that he can continue the family line with the Messiah and like merge their bloodlines. Zerbi doesn't like this, right? She feels very like, like this, like she's trying to protect like her own importance in the cult and is like very jealous of this kid, his granddaughter who's being abused.

• 1:05:22Speaker 04

  Oh, so it's about her. It's not like that's, I was like, I was like, oh, that's your line? No, it's about her.

• 1:05:27Robert Evans?

  She feels threatened by the fact that this girl might become her son's wife, right? Dawn Irwin, Minnie's brother, later told Wilkinson, she was worried that Minnie would become Mo's next wife. And so in a family practice called teen training, Minnie suffered vicious physical abuse at Zerbi's direction. In Macau, Minnie was locked in a room for six months. She was tied to a bed and beaten, thrown against walls and even forced to undergo multiple exorcisms. Sarah Davidito often supervised the abuse, sometimes assaulting Minnie herself.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 1:05:59Robert Evans?

  And Sarah Davidito is like one of Mo's, like the women he's got in his harem who's raising Davidito, right? So she takes on his name as her last name.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  But, but this is all Zerbi's, under Zerbi's direction?

• 1:06:12Robert Evans?

  Yes, and with the consent of Berg, obviously. But yes, she is directing all of this psychological and physical abuse at this girl because she's threatened by her. And it's like, it's, it's pretty profoundly hideous. There's a great deal. And this is, this seems to be like what makes Ricky really start to realize how bad things are, is like he genuinely, this, this kid he sees as like this, this other kid is his family, right? That's how he sees it. And he sees that they're abusing her. And he has nightmares of seeing her screaming in the basement of different facilities after being tortured. And that's kind of what's going to pull him out of it, is what happens to Minnie. She is eventually institutionalized as a result of

• 1:06:55Robert Evans?

  the abuse she endures, right? Like she does not do well psychologically. How the fuck could you, right? And through the, by the late 80s, you know, this is kind of the period where both Ricky is starting to realize. How bad things are and the period at which the extent of the family's crimes and David Berg's crimes has started to hit the news and get interest from law enforcement, right? This is when there start to be prosecutions or attempts at prosecutions.

• 1:07:25Speaker 04

  This is not till the late 80s?

• 1:07:27Robert Evans?

  Not till the late 80s.

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:07:30Robert Evans?

  1988 is when Berg first publicly denies that any kids had been molested by the church. And he orders a purge of materials in libraries at cult compounds worldwide, right? Not all of them, but like a lot of the the worst stuff. And kind of the other thing that's happening in this period is this is when the AIDS crisis starts, right? Which is why the cult ends the flirty fishing practice because people start getting sick. Right? This is also when they start to ban officially ban sex with minors. It's still occurring in parts of the cult, but they make an official like notice that people should stop doing this. And in 1991, increasingly worried about the law coming after him, Berg orders all copies of the books of David Ito destroyed.

• 1:08:13Robert Evans?

  This is not enough to stop the criminal investigations, which are going on in multiple countries, including the Philippines, Italy, Australia and Spain. So kids get removed from these family homes, hundreds of them, but none of the charges stick. Because they've done a fairly good job of destroying the evidence. At this point, they're using like a lot of encrypted online communication in the early 90s, which law enforcement is not super up on. And none of the charges against Berg stick. None of the charges against any of the adults who are a part of this stick, right? Some kids do get out, but nothing all that big happens as a result of the investigations. So by the early 90s, kind of the biggest of these investigations is one in England,

• 1:08:57Robert Evans?

  which ends with, you know, a lot of information about the torture of kids, including Minet, comes out in this case. And the judge who's adjudicating this, the Lord Justice declares that like the the cult tortured children. And it led to a quote barbaric and cruel situation, which is like, you're starting to think, okay, maybe a good ruling coming here. But then this justice is like, but all the evidence shows the cult has been reformed sufficiently. So we don't need to do any further legal action.

• 1:09:24Speaker 04

  Dude.

• 1:09:24Robert Evans?

  They learned from their mistakes.

• 1:09:25Speaker 04

  Dude.

• 1:09:26Robert Evans?

  It's fine. Like it's wild. It's like shocking.

• 1:09:30Speaker 04

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:09:32Robert Evans?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:33Speaker 04

  These are kids.

• 1:09:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and like they're reading out the stuff I just read you about like the abuse this girl endures and this judge is like, it's bad, but they seem to have changed. So I think we're good. Um, by 1993, yeah. Uh, there's not a unfortunately, like, nobody really gets what's coming to them here. Um, with maybe one exception, although that's pretty bleak too, as we're gonna get to. So by 1993, the Family International, AKA The Children of God, has more than 12,000 members in 70 countries. Berg, however, is too ill by this point, both to engage in the kind of sexual abuse that he earlier reveled in, or even to write any additional mo letters. Zerbi takes over. She's authoring letters for him, as him, uh, and is leading

• 1:10:18Robert Evans?

  the cult, right? She's running everything by 93 because he's so sick. In 1994, Moses David Berg dies aged 75. The cause of death is unknown. He is buried in Portugal. Zerbi, AKA Mama Maria, replaces him and promotes her new lover, a guy named Peter Amsterdam, to co-leader, calling him King Peter. In 1995, she issues a new directive to the cult. Jesus has informed her that he wants to literally have sex with his followers, and they're ordered to visualize this when masturbating. Male followers are told to imagine themselves as women, which is an interesting twist to it. Um, so, you know, this is both like,

• 1:10:59Robert Evans?

  still messed up, but also you can see the level of attention they've gotten. Weirdly homophobic. Weirdly homophobic, and Zerbi's also not, she doesn't have the, like, the cult's not going to go for the same kind of abuse they used to openly because they're scared, right? There's an understanding that like, they've now got too much attention on them. And she's just kind of trying to ride things out, I think. Now, Ricky, the Messiah, has grown increasingly furious at the church by this point. Um, there has been a rash of suicides through the 90s of about at least probably around 30 people, um, many of whom Ricky had grown up with and seen abused alongside him, and he eventually finds the courage to leave the cult. For understandable reasons, he's never able to get over what was done to him and what's

• 1:11:44Robert Evans?

  was still being done, he believed, to a lot of vulnerable people in the children of God. And he, he gets out in the early 2000s. He's like, he lives up in the Northwest for a while. He's got a partner. He's trying to move on. He's trying to live a life, but he also gets, he can't let go of this, like, I mean, nightmarish abuse. And he becomes obsessed with getting vengeance against the cult leadership. Specifically, he wants to kill his mother, Karen Zerbi, right? But she's underground and he can't find out where she is. And he tries a few tactics. He eventually lures her secretary, Angela Smith, who had been part of the abuse against him when he was a kid, to his home in New Mexico. And he tries to get the info about where Karen Zerbi is out of her. And when she doesn't give it to him, he stabs her

• 1:12:29Robert Evans?

  to death. And he records a video talking about his plans to get vengeance. He drives to California, presumably headed to another cult compound, but ultimately, he commits suicide within hours of committing California in his car. And that's, unfortunately, our very bleak ending for today, right? Is like, yeah, it's about as bad as it could be. I mean, and your heart just goes out to Ricky.

• 1:12:54Speaker 04

  What happened to Zerbi?

• 1:12:56Robert Evans?

  Oh, she lives a long life.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Is she still with us?

• 1:13:02Robert Evans?

  Uh, I don't believe so. I think she passed on. I don't remember exactly. Oh, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She, she is still officially alive. Like, it's a little hard to say, right? Because we don't know where she is. Uh, she's been underground for a long time, but at least her death has not been like officially listed. Now, again, we don't know, like, these people have been like living underground and hiding. Cult membership has declined to about 1,400 individuals worldwide, it's estimated. Um, so they're kind of running on fumes and what money they had in savings and investments, but there's not really any evidence that punishment is going to happen. Like, I guess first you'd have to know, like, where this person is located, right? Like, it'd be nice.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Like, why, well, why wouldn't Zerbi be like on the FBI most wanted list?

• 1:13:53Robert Evans?

  I mean, in part because there's not like a lot of direct criminal charges. There's a lot of allegations from all these people. There's extensive reporting from people who have like done it, but like Karen Zerbi is not in the US. You know, like, where is she? Like, you can find people trying to figure out like where she is.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  These crimes were perpetrated overseas too, yeah.

• 1:14:14Robert Evans?

  Right, like, yeah, like the FBI, Tenerife, like, what are they gonna do about like sexual abuse there? Or whatever, which not to like let any law enforcement off the hook for not prosecuting this, but like you don't know where this person is. And a lot of these crimes are committed all over the place.

• 1:14:28Speaker 04

  She's got an up to date website as of 2024.

• 1:14:31Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, no, they maintain their websites, yeah.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Wait, wait, wait, what?

• 1:14:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, the Family International, the Children of God, they maintain all of their websites. Like, you can find a lot of my sources, when I'm saying I'm quoting from his biography, that's from the Children of God and the Family International's websites. They're just claiming to be like a normal humanitarian church organization now. But like, you've got what people like Ricky say, you've got like what all of these victims say, you've got what Berg's Own Kids say, and you've got like the Book of David Edo. There's copies of it, right? It's been verified, like, the child pornography was in there. You can find clips of it that don't include that, but do talk about molesting Ricky when he's a kid. Like, they're online and stuff.

• 1:15:16Robert Evans?

  So, it's one of those things where there's so much information out, but also this person, like,

• 1:15:24Robert Evans?

  it does, it is like infuriating that she's just alive and free. But also, I don't like, how do you?

• 1:15:30Speaker 04

  With an up to date website.

• 1:15:31Robert Evans?

  How do you, yeah, with headshots on it, but like,

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Robert Evans?

  It'd be great if somebody did something, like, I don't know how to make them. But yeah.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Welcome to the family.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  You know what we're not good at as a species?

• 1:15:50Robert Evans?

  Accountability.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Accountability. That's also one of the sad lessons of snafu. Like, this is obviously, you know, like, this massive child sex trafficking operation is, is...

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  So intensely horrifying and tragic and heartbreaking, but you just, you see it all across, especially like when it's, when it's in, in an institutional context, like a cult is a form of an institution.

• 1:16:19Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  But even in like, you know, in, in, in season three of Snafu, uh, we talk about how the government poisoned thousands of people during prohibition.

• 1:16:31Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  And, uh, that was all exposed at the time. No one accountable.

• 1:16:37Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  No one.

• 1:16:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I mean, we, and we could talk about stuff like, you know, the murder of Fred Hampton and shit. Like there's all of these things where it's like, yeah, we know what went down and we know it was bad and no one's ever been brought to justice, uh, because it's too hard or they have too much money or it's, it's too much time has passed before we realized what was happening was wrong. And like, yeah, it's, it gets real tiring just hearing that over and over again with all of these, these monsters with people like Zerbi, you know, seeing a guy like Berg die elderly, kind of rich, surrounded by his power.

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  Natural causes.

• 1:17:12Robert Evans?

  Presumably natural causes. Yeah. Yep.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:17:16Robert Evans?

  Anyway, Ed, sorry for this bummer of a story.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  You know what? Uh, the more we know.

• 1:17:22Robert Evans?

  The more you know. Yeah.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  The better we off we are. This is a, this was a, this was a deep dive into a hell hole.

• 1:17:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  I'm just gonna be honest with you.

• 1:17:31Robert Evans?

  It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  It just, yeah, it started out kind of like, you know, you can, these cult stories, you can kind of sit from a distance and be like, eh, look at these idiots.

• 1:17:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  And just kind of be snarky, but then it starts, when it just starts to get, ah, like.

• 1:17:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  The reality kicks in. It just, it's so upsetting.

• 1:17:49Robert Evans?

  It's, yeah, it's super bleak. Um.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  I call, it's a fascinating subject. Cults are so mystifying, right? They're just such a wild, like what's the evolutionary cause of cults? I, it's such a compelling and disturbing facet to humanity. They've always existed and they always will and. What the hell?

• 1:18:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:18:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I think some of it's just like some of these dynamics we have that make us effective as communities also make us very vulnerable to people who know how to manipulate those aspects of psychology, right?

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  Also, the, this is such a sad reminder of the legacy of abuse. Like, what, what abuse, how much abuse carries through generations and, and that the pain and toxicity of, the damage, the damage goes on and on. And it's very heartbreaking.

• 1:18:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. It's this, yeah, the man handing on misery to man. It's this like, and, and that doesn't like, the fact that Berg was abused doesn't excuse what he does, but you do, you can't not notice the pattern repeating.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:19:04Robert Evans?

  You know?

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. Um, all right. Thanks so much.

• 1:19:08Robert Evans?

  Thank you. Uh, everyone, listen to Snafu, season three out now, season four you're working on. We're all excited for it. Um, yeah, anything else you want to plug here at the end?

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  I don't know. Just like, let's, let's all be good people.

• 1:19:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah, try to be better. Yeah. At least don't be like this guy.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Don't be like this guy. Don't fall in, don't get taken in by this guy in all the different forms he takes around the world.

• 1:19:32Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Um, and, uh, thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.

• 1:19:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah. All right, everybody. That's the episode. Bye.

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