Part Two: Behind the Bastards Live Show: The Ballad of Bo Gritz

Robert concludes the story of Bo Gritz with his unhinged attempts to rescue POWs from Vietnam, his political ambitions, and disgraceful downfall. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 0:34Robert Evans?

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• 1:07Speaker 03

  Call Zone Media.

• 1:21Speaker 04

  OK, like a grown-up.

• 1:22Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna sit normally now.

• 1:24Speaker 04

  You're gonna sit like a grown-up.

• 1:25Robert Evans?

  All right, let's give a hands up to, uh...

• 1:28Robert Evans?

  Ha, ha, ha!

• 1:29Speaker 03

  I feel like that was for me.

• 1:31Robert Evans?

  You don't fucking control me.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  I feel like I got...

• 1:34Speaker 04

  I booed you turning the chair around.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  No, they don't control you, but clearly I do.

• 1:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah, well, yeah, yeah. There you go.

• 1:41Speaker 04

  There's never been a question about that. You control us all. Also, shout out us graduating our booze.

• 1:48Speaker 03

  Not me.

• 1:48Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, we've moved up to hard liquor.

• 1:51Speaker 04

  We've moved up.

• 1:52Robert Evans?

  You're on to bourbon. Brownest of the brown liquor.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Come on down, Brown.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Because I gotta walk in the crowd later, and I'm very afraid of falling.

• 2:00Robert Evans?

  Oh, that part's gonna be fun. So, shall we return to the story of Beau Gritz? Right? So, when we last left off, Beau was touring the country, telling lies that he didn't need to tell about Vietnam, and raising money to try and send a bunch of goons back to Southeast Asia to rescue a bunch of guys who were not in Southeast Asia.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  Is he bored?

• 2:24Robert Evans?

  I mean, this seems more fun than like, getting a job.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Actual war.

• 2:29Robert Evans?

  What would you rather do? Lie to television about Vietnam and take a bunch of money to go vacation in Thailand? Or work?

• 2:39Speaker 04

  I mean, yeah.

• 2:40Robert Evans?

  Look, I'm lying about Vietnam.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  I don't think I would actually do the gun, like, I would just go vacation.

• 2:48Robert Evans?

  That's the part I wouldn't do.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'd go and just never come back.

• 2:52Robert Evans?

  Unfortunately, Beau does not have that governor in his head. No. No, when you and I start our Vietnam grift, it's gonna go a lot better. It's gonna go a lot better.

• 3:00Speaker 04

  There'll be a lot of time shares involved.

• 3:02Robert Evans?

  It's gonna be hard convincing people in 2040 that there's still US soldiers trapped in Vietnam.

• 3:10Speaker 03

  You can't tell me I'm wrong. Deep down, Beau is just a podcaster.

• 3:17Robert Evans?

  So, Beau's touring the country, he's speaking on different TV shows, he's talking at churches, at veterans organizations, he's telling all these stories. And, yeah, after months of raising money, he launches what he calls Operation Velvet Hammer in 1981.

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Come on, man.

• 3:37Robert Evans?

  I know. That's a good one.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  We're at draw the line, fam.

• 3:41Robert Evans?

  I would use that title. If I was writing a screenplay called Operation Velvet Hammer.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  Velvet Hammer, that is a...

• 3:47Robert Evans?

  It would be about a strip club that had to arm themselves in order to...

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Yes, I was like, this is a porn.

• 3:53Robert Evans?

  In order to care... No, not a porn. What?

• 3:56Speaker 04

  Velvet Hammer?

• 3:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. One of the employees at the strip club gets kidnapped by a mafia, and the others have to form a commando unit to rescue them.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  So, it's like a stripper escape room?

• 4:08Robert Evans?

  Yes, kind of. Yes, yes.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  It's Portland, we probably have that.

• 4:12Robert Evans?

  No, no, it's like Taken, but instead of there being one Liam Neeson, there's a bunch, and they're all strippers. Right? That's the story. That's not a bad idea for a... I'm just gonna, yeah.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Greenlit.

• 4:25Speaker 04

  I do think, I do think an adult escape room might actually be a viable business.

• 4:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. A viable business that will immediately get like the lawsuits. The lawsuits. Oh my god.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  Immediately, yes.

• 4:39Robert Evans?

  He launches Operation Velvet Hammer in 1981. Writing for Time Magazine, Pico Iyer reports that Beau gathered up, quote, "21 drifters, dreamers, and desperados recruited a psychic, a hypnotherapist, and some reporters, and began practicing..."

• 4:57Speaker 04

  Okay, okay, I might be here for this one. I'm like, I'm kinda on his team now.

• 5:02Robert Evans?

  Look, if I'm putting together a platoon of veterans in order to like rescue guys, what do you need? Well, you need some drifters, obviously. You're gonna need some dreamers, some desperados, a psychic, clearly.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  A psychic!

• 5:14Robert Evans?

  You're not gonna get far without a hypnotherapist, and of course, some reporters.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  I might be, I might be on his team for this one.

• 5:22Robert Evans?

  And so they start training together to go into Laos and to rescue, or at least find proof that there's men being held prisoner across the border in Vietnam. Now, Prop, if you're training roughly a platoon's worth of guys who are already combat veterans, but if you're training them to insert themselves without any support into some of the most dangerous terrain on earth in order to rescue prisoners from a heavily guarded camp, where would you do that training?

• 5:52Speaker 04

  I mean, caveat would be, I wouldn't be doing this training.

• 5:56Robert Evans?

  Right, right, if you were.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  This is the dumbest thing to do.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  I promise you, you don't have the right answer. It's so funny.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  Where would I do this?

• 6:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah, where would you train these guys to go into Laos?

• 6:06Speaker 04

  Uh, somewhere similar to Laos.

• 6:09Robert Evans?

  That's a good answer. It's close.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  But, no, no, no, no, no.

• 6:13Robert Evans?

  If you're Beau Wright's, the place you pick is the American Cheerleading Association Academy in Leesburg, Florida. Obviously! Where, where would you guys go? Right?

• 6:24Speaker 04

  You made that. That's not what that said. Ain't no way in the world, that's what your script said.

• 6:29Robert Evans?

  Sun Tzu says, "Know your enemy, and know yourself, and you need not fear the result of a thousand battles." Beau knows the North Vietnamese.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  I think he also said, "Bert, it's cold in here."

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Bert, b-b-b-b-bert!

• 6:43Robert Evans?

  So, I was gonna do a bit about how North Vietnam based all of their fighting strategies on cheerleading, but you already took it from me, so we're good, we're good.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  I was one step ahead.

• 6:52Speaker 04

  Oh my gosh.

• 6:54Speaker 03

  Just like the cheerleaders.

• 6:55Robert Evans?

  Just like the cheerleaders.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  Cheerleaders' middle name is Lynn.

• 6:57Robert Evans?

  So, one of Bo's, to give you an idea of the caliber-

• 7:01Speaker 04

  That was a throwaway joke, y'all catch that one? Y'all catch that throwaway joke? The middle name is Lynn. She's Kaylee Lynn, you know what I'm saying? Dang, sorry.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  I can't, I literally-

• 7:13Robert Evans?

  So-

• 7:13Speaker 04

  I apologize.

• 7:14Robert Evans?

  We should, I should give you an idea of the kind of men that Bo's working with. So, one of his volunteers is a guy named Terry Smith. Now, Terry is a former Green Beret, so that's good, right? Probably want someone with that kind of experience on the team. Now, before getting involved in Velvet Hammer, Terry had been training to become a college football player, and he quit spring training to go to Laos with Bo. He told Time, when they asked him why, "I gave up something I've always wanted, but there were at least a dozen Green Berets on operations in that area in Laos who never got out. When I shoot the first commie, I'm gonna have an orgasm. I'm gonna come out-" Wait?

• 7:53Speaker 04

  This is going off the rails, okay.

• 7:56Robert Evans?

  "I'm gonna come out with a POW or die trying. I figure we'll either go down in history or start World War III." That's a beautiful mind.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 8:07Robert Evans?

  That's a beautiful mind, I'm sorry.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  You need to stay home.

• 8:10Robert Evans?

  You need to not have a gun.

• 8:12Speaker 04

  You need to not have a gun.

• 8:13Robert Evans?

  Look, I've, you know, we could talk about the Second Amendment, but that should get your guns taken away.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  I feel like-

• 8:20Robert Evans?

  Nope, nope, nope, hand them over, I'm sorry.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  Yes, absolutely not.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  This person is unwell.

• 8:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, very, oh, you haven't even, we have not finished with Terry Smith, so-

• 8:32Speaker 04

  That's, that's, that's the name, Terry Smith.

• 8:33Robert Evans?

  That's Terry Smith, that's very Terry behavior, yeah. Sorry if there's any, are there any Terrys in the audience? Thank God.

• 8:41Robert Evans?

  Thank God, thank God.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  It's a Terry-free zone.

• 8:45Robert Evans?

  Because I can't stand those motherfuckers.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  I'm all, now, I'm all, there's, there's 500 people in this room and none of y'all are Terry.

• 8:54Robert Evans?

  It's not a real name.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  That's an interesting stat, yeah.

• 8:58Robert Evans?

  It's a fake name. I think Terry was a CIA plant, anyway.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  Especially with that type of talk.

• 9:03Speaker 03

  You would.

• 9:04Robert Evans?

  Right, right.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  That's some very much some like Blacks Rule energy, you know what I'm saying?

• 9:09Robert Evans?

  So.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  You know we don't call ourselves that, right? Like, we would never write Blacks Rule, okay, I'm just...

• 9:16Robert Evans?

  Bose, roughly two dozen guys, right? Smith, you know, this guy we quoted from, purportedly a combat veteran, but no one's checking up on that. I say, he said he was a Green Beret. All these guys say that they had been in the... No one's checking.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  Wait, was he not? Was he not?

• 9:33Robert Evans?

  I don't know. No one knows. No one looked. No one asked.

• 9:38Speaker 04

  Terry.

• 9:38Robert Evans?

  These are men who showed up at a cheerleading academy in Florida and said, "I'm willing to travel to Laos to kill strangers."

• 9:47Speaker 03

  God.

• 9:48Robert Evans?

  Who knows what they did for a living?

• 9:50Speaker 04

  That there might be one of our friends there.

• 9:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah, maybe our buddy's there, right?

• 9:53Speaker 03

  I'm just saying Eric Prince is foaming at the mouth.

• 9:57Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, beyond foaming, and not just at the mouth, so...

• 10:03Speaker 03

  My mom is here.

• 10:06Robert Evans?

  Hi, Sophie's mom.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Hi, mom.

• 10:08Robert Evans?

  So, Terry told reporters a lot of beautiful nonsense, not beautiful nonsense, a lot of nonsense. One of his stories that he would tell the news was that when he was in Vietnam, he watched a whole platoon of NVA soldiers stop and cut up a pregnant woman together. Quote, "I wanted to rip their heads off, but I couldn't do nothing about it." Now, look, no side in any war has a monopoly on war crimes. But 30 guys all stopped to cut up a single pregnant woman is just not the sort of war crime I'm gonna believe happened unless you have some evidence, right? That's just a weird move, right? What was the situation where you couldn't do anything? These guys are all occupied and you're just what? Like, what are you claiming was going on here, Terry?

• 10:53Robert Evans?

  I don't know. That said, do drink because it is a war crime, so. Get on it, folks. Now...

• 11:00Robert Evans?

  I think that this is the kind of nonsense that fits in less with what actually happened and more with the fact that all these guys are now telling tall tales about the things that actually happened in order to express their fantasies. And like ju- they're trying to justify the fact that they want to go murder a bunch of strangers in the jungle, right? Like, so you have to tell like, "What's the worst thing I can imagine? Well, this would justify me doing whatever," right? This summary of that Florida gathering by Time Magazine really says a lot. Quote, "They were just high on the idea, adrenaline and the ballad of the Green Berets blaring over the loudspeaker at all of them, an ex-special forces sergeant still embittered about losing his son in Vietnam, and Terry Smith humping a rucksack urging them on, 'Suck

• 11:44Robert Evans?

  that clean Florida air.'" Just, just a maniac. All these guys, maniacs.

• 11:51Speaker 04

  What's going on, man?

• 11:52Robert Evans?

  Their plan, the goal, the plan that they're training for is nuts from the jump. Bo's idea, "We're all gonna fly in to Laos as tourists, and then we'll rent a house on the Mekong Delta across from Vietnam, and we'll pretend to be providing humanitarian aid to Cambodian refugees. We'll get smuggled a bunch of machine guns, which should be easy, obviously, and then we'll embed with friendly anti-communist guerrillas fighting the Vietnamese state across the border," right? "And they'll help us find these POWs. If we're captured, we're gonna travel with gold so we can pay our ransoms, and we're going to bring with us, just in case, what they called 'get out of jail free cards.'"

• 12:35Robert Evans?

  These were self-printed IOUs promising $1,000 if someone took them in the bearer to a US embassy. The embassies had not agreed to validate these.

• 12:45Speaker 04

  First of all...

• 12:46Robert Evans?

  These are just, "I carry one of those in my pocket now."

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, first of all, that America didn't send you, number one, and number two, you are going to be robbed immediately.

• 12:56Robert Evans?

  Immediately. Oh crap, you've seen where this is going.

• 13:02Robert Evans?

  So, the next part of the plan is, once they find a POW camp, we will either break everyone out, or we'll take pictures, depending on the situation. And then, we'll send the proof back to DC, and that'll convince the president to send air support from the 7th Fleet in, right? We will start the war in Vietnam right there. He's gonna immediately call in an airstrike, and we'll free these guys. Now-

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Bro, this is like, pre- like, this ain't no internet. Like, how long- you gonna call the president from Laos?

• 13:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, you're gonna call the president from fucking Laos, and you're gonna get him to send the 7th Fleet to bomb Vietnam again-

• 13:38Speaker 04

  Again.

• 13:38Robert Evans?

  -10 years after the war ends.

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 13:41Robert Evans?

  Great, great idea, guys. Amazing. And Bo's plan is that, like, obviously, we'll win a second time, right? Like, you know? It's like, it's like when you're like, playing your brother or something at Smash Brothers, and like, he, he like, gets you, but he just like, he just mashed buttons, you know? He's not gonna mash those buttons the same way again. Vietnam was like that, right? Maybe you pick Samus the next time. That was Bo's plan.

• 14:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, your brother beating the brakes- Your brother beating the brakes off you every time, right? Yeah, got it.

• 14:11Robert Evans?

  So, unfortunately, the money that Bo raised telling pointless lies about his time in Vietnam did not extend past partying in Florida. One member of the group, because, so they run out of money at the cheerleading academy-

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 14:25Robert Evans?

  And one member of the group, Terry fucking Smith, suggests, "Hey, guys, I know I can get some extra money. We're in Florida, it's the 80s. Let's go murder a bunch of coke dealers and take their money."

• 14:37Speaker 04

  I was like, I don't-

• 14:38Robert Evans?

  And go fund our trip to Vietnam, well, to Laos, the coke dealer money.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  I said to myself, "They gonna say they gonna sell coke." And I was like, "Nah, that'd be dumb."

• 14:48Robert Evans?

  No, that'd be dumb. They're gonna take money from coke dealers.

• 14:51Speaker 04

  I was like, "Oh, you gonna rob coke dealers?" "Oh, yeah."

• 14:54Robert Evans?

  "We're gonna start an independent war with the cartels, so that we can start an independent war with Vietnam," you know?

• 15:01Speaker 03

  At their base, at the cheerleading camp.

• 15:04Robert Evans?

  At the cheerleading camp.

• 15:05Speaker 04

  Out of their cheerleading base.

• 15:06Robert Evans?

  Now, Terry Smith told the Time Magazine, "If I gotta kill 100, 20 American bad guys to get 100 POWs out of Vietnam, I'll do it." Of course, Terry? Absolutely.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  Terry said, "Go fight Roar."

• 15:26Robert Evans?

  That was good, Sophie.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 15:31Speaker 01

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• 15:59Robert Evans?

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• 17:10Robert Evans?

  So, Operation Velvet Hammer worked out about as well as an actual velvet hammer. After this, Bo doesn't give up. That's one thing the military taught him. How to stick... The military taught him two things. One is how to stick to a plan, and the other is how to not win a war in Vietnam. Right? Those are the two things he learned from his service. So, Bo organizes a small... ...smaller group to hunt for clues in Thailand. And I have to assume that the word "hunt" here means "smoke", and the word "clues" here stands for "Thai sticks". Anyway, they find no information about any POWs hunting in Thailand.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  He just shooting out arbitrary countries that are like, close to where.

• 17:54Robert Evans?

  Look, you know what, we say that, actually, Prop, if you guys want to donate some money, you know, really, really coughing and give deep, I think we could find some POWs in Thailand.

• 18:02Speaker 04

  I'm pretty sure we could.

• 18:03Robert Evans?

  We're gonna, we're gonna need like, six weeks at La Meridian in Bangkok. And I think we can knock it out. I really think we can knock it out.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  That's a little specific.

• 18:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 04

  It's just one boat, it's just, it's just, look, it's just one bus into the, into the bush.

• 18:17Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 18:17Speaker 04

  But we could stay out there and...

• 18:20Robert Evans?

  Based in the La Meridian.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  Base, yeah, yeah, yeah, do some, do some like, mental health work and massages.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  This podcast is not sponsored by La Meridian.

• 18:29Robert Evans?

  You guys aren't, aren't all in, in intel, but let me tell you, as a CIA man, all of the good, all of the real information comes from massage artists.

• 18:38Speaker 04

  As they're all...

• 18:38Robert Evans?

  So my plan is to get like, eight hours of massages a day, right? And that, then I'll figure out where all of the prisoners are. Sophie, it's a good idea.

• 18:47Speaker 04

  And most of them, most of them speak English, right?

• 18:50Robert Evans?

  I don't know.

• 18:53Speaker 04

  Also, as a side note, as I've been sitting here, I thought Velvet Hammer also sounds like a Prince album.

• 18:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that would be a pretty good name for a Prince album, yeah.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  It'd be a Prince album, anyway.

• 19:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Also, not a bad band name, anyway.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  It's actually a pretty good name.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  How are they not out of money completely at this point?

• 19:06Robert Evans?

  Well, they're continuing, well, actually, we'll talk about who's giving them money, because that's fun, Sophie, that's really fun. So Bo keeps raising money and public awareness of US POWs that are definitely still trapped in Vietnam. He succeeds in securing several high-profile celebrity donations.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Wait, who do you think it is?

• 19:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Who do you think it is?

• 19:24Robert Evans?

  Give me, give me two names.

• 19:24Speaker 04

  Kissinger.

• 19:25Robert Evans?

  No, celebrities, celebrities, like movie stars.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  Movie star, movie star.

• 19:30Robert Evans?

  Movie or TV?

• 19:33Speaker 04

  I was like John Wayne, Robert Redford.

• 19:38Robert Evans?

  Ollie North's not a TV star or a movie star. At this point in time.

• 19:42Speaker 03

  You're all getting very close, but you're not there yet.

• 19:44Robert Evans?

  No.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Yup.

• 19:46Robert Evans?

  Someone said Eastwood. Clint Eastwood sends $30,000.

• 19:53Robert Evans?

  And allegedly promised to get Ronald Reagan's blessing. Allegedly, Bo says. Clint said, "If you can find proof of a POW, I'll make sure Reagan sends in an airstrike." Right? I don't know if Clint Eastwood did shit. Other than he definitely sent the money. Right? And then, no one's gonna guess this. William Shatner donated $10,000.

• 20:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, to be, to be fair to our boy.

• 20:23Robert Evans?

  Bill Shatner sends 10 grand if, in exchange, for the rights to Bo Gritz's life.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Okay, nevermind.

• 20:31Robert Evans?

  Bill's got an angle, we know our boy.

• 20:33Speaker 04

  I see the play, I see the play.

• 20:34Robert Evans?

  Captain Kirk knows what he's doing.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Respect, actually, respect, you know what I'm saying?

• 20:39Speaker 03

  I think 10K is a hilarious amount for his life rights.

• 20:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, the money that they raised is enough that in November of 1982, Bo finally succeeds in taking a commando team to Laos, where the most obvious thing happens. And I want to quote from Bruce Franklin's book, MIA, here. "Almost as soon as they arrived in Laos, they were ambushed, routed, and forced to flee as fast as they could back to Thailand. The ambushers, contrary to their initial assumptions, were not even treacherous communists, but a rival anti-communist Laotian group whom Gritz's men had offended in Thailand and to whom, Gritz, ironically enough, reportedly had to pay $17,500 ransom to recover a captured American teammate. The raiders, of course, encountered no POWs." Now, there's a couple of things about this.

• 21:26Robert Evans?

  First off, they did kind of succeed in rescuing a POW.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  Yes. Touche.

• 21:33Robert Evans?

  Did they bring that POW with them? Yes.

• 21:38Robert Evans?

  But they did save him. Uh, second-

• 21:41Speaker 04

  That is glorious.

• 21:42Robert Evans?

  It's time for another drink because also two of his local Laotian guides die in the ambush, which is very sad. Although, you have to imagine the guys who are taking him into the jungle, probably not great. Right? The dudes who were working with this guy? I dunno. Anyway, that's sad. Still sad. Take a drink.

• 22:00Speaker 04

  That is so funny. Not the deaths.

• 22:02Robert Evans?

  Not the deaths.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  But-

• 22:04Robert Evans?

  But the fact that they immediately get ambushed, robbed, and ransomed? Super funny. Now, if you're keeping track, the only American captive they've encountered is someone they brought with them. But, the very next month, Bo tries again, flying to Thailand and renting a thousand dollar a month safe house. And a thousand dollars a month in the 1980's? That is a nice fucking safe house.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  That's a lot of money.

• 22:25Robert Evans?

  Again, prop, we could find some information in Thailand.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  Listen, in a thousand dollar a month safe house? Some of y'all could come through.

• 22:31Robert Evans?

  That's not a bad amount of money today. You're staying in a ni- well, thousand a month, I dunno. Yeah. We'll see. Safe houses, you know, they're on a sliding scale. So, one of Bo's comrades claims to have totally seen bad guys across the border drilling with weapons. Sure, maybe, like, it's Vietnam, they have an army now. Like, they're their country, right? Like, they're allowed to do that? He's like, "I was so angry, I couldn't find them." It's their country! What are you doing over there?

• 22:58Speaker 04

  You came, you flew all the way from Florida.

• 23:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:03Robert Evans?

  Well, presumably from Florida, yeah. Um, so, uh, Bo's last attempt was in the spring of 1983, and it ended when Thai police immediately arrested two of his commandos for possession of illegal radio transmitters. So-

• 23:17Speaker 04

  Did nobody ask y'all to come, fam?

• 23:20Robert Evans?

  No one wants you here.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  You did not need to be here.

• 23:23Robert Evans?

  Okay. This is not a success by any definition, but it got attention. People do pay attention to what Bo is doing. He gets hauled before Congress in March of 1983. Now, Congress had concluded, as I said, in 1976, that there were no more POWs being held by Vietnam. So Bo was asked, "What evidence do you have to counter these conclusions?" And Bo answers, "I have the same evidence that might be presented to a convention of clergymen that God exists." So, like, none?

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Wait.

• 23:55Robert Evans?

  So like, no.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  That's not a bar, my chief.

• 23:57Robert Evans?

  So like, no evidence?

• 23:58Speaker 04

  That's not a bar, man.

• 24:00Robert Evans?

  Look, man, I'm not anti-faith or whatever, but we don't invade countries based on... Well, we do, actually, a lot.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Actually, we do all the time.

• 24:09Robert Evans?

  You know what? That's actually often why we invade... Okay. Point to Bo. Now, in another interview, one of Bo's former volunteers, Tom Smith, said of Gritz, "I wouldn't cross the street with this guy. He's suffering from the early stages of burning a bush complex." Which, first off, it's not burning a bush. I don't understand why you said it that way.

• 24:31Speaker 04

  No, it's burning bush.

• 24:32Robert Evans?

  It's a burning bush.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 24:34Robert Evans?

  You're not burning... Maybe you think he was lighting a bush on fire to fake it? I guess that could be good.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  I don't know. Maybe it's some slang. We just don't know.

• 24:41Robert Evans?

  Maybe, yeah, yeah. This is some old...

• 24:42Speaker 03

  There are more important things here. Continue.

• 24:44Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 24:45Speaker 04

  Yes, ma'am.

• 24:45Robert Evans?

  Now, the attention that Bo drew mattered, though, to someone. Well, to a group. Hollywood. Bo's story inspired, and did legitimately inspire, Rambo: First Blood Part II, in which John Rambo was sent to a secret US base in Thailand to invade Vietnam on his own and rescue POWs. There's other movies that were inspired by Bo's story. Chuck Norris's Missing in Action series and the Gene Hackman film, Uncommon Valor, R.I.P. Gene, were also inspired by Bo's fantasies of rescuing POWs overseas. And, here's my favorite side fact, the character Hannibal Smith on the A-Team inspired partly by Bo Gritz.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Serious?

• 25:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I know.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  Hannibal?

• 25:29Robert Evans?

  And, the real... Number one, the real Hannibal would have found those POWs if they were there.

• 25:34Speaker 04

  He would have found them, absolutely.

• 25:36Robert Evans?

  And number two...

• 25:36Speaker 04

  I would have pitied them fools.

• 25:37Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm, absolutely, absolutely.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Sorry.

• 25:41Robert Evans?

  I do love the A-Team.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  You can tell Rob said it half a drink.

• 25:46Speaker 04

  This was like... This was like, he poured this like a glass of water.

• 25:50Robert Evans?

  It was a thick pour.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Like, shout out whoever, like...

• 25:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 04

  You trying to put me up under this table?

• 25:55Robert Evans?

  It was as thick as the C4 necklace around that guy's neck.

• 26:01Robert Evans?

  So, what? I didn't do it!

• 26:07Speaker 04

  You're supposed to say "no."

• 26:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:10Robert Evans?

  Alright, everybody, do your drink.

• 26:13Robert Evans?

  So, after 1983, Bo seems to have largely and quietly given up on his plans to rescue these totally real USPOWs in order to become an influencer in the growing militia movement. He joined the Mormon Church, started in a direct-

• 26:30Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 26:31Robert Evans?

  You gotta wait for the sentence to finish. Started in a direct-to-video rip-off of Charlie's Angels called Rescue Force. I know what everyone's watching tonight! And in 1988, agreed to run as the vice presidential candidate for the Populist Party. Anybody know the Populist Party? Anybody heard of these guys? Well, they were the political party of a group called the Liberty Lobby, which was founded by a guy we've talked about on Behind the Bastards, a Holocaust denier and Hitler fan, Willis Carteau. Right? There we go! Yeah!

• 27:11Speaker 04

  It all moved together, guys.

• 27:13Robert Evans?

  Willis Carteau is like, I mean, he is like the grandfather of American fascism as an organized political movement that is like working within like mainstream conservatism and attempting to radicalize and influence mainstream conservatism, right? Carteau is the guy, he was the dude who was a lot smarter than like the neo-Nazis. He was like, "No, no, no, no, no. You gotta, you gotta dress this shit up a little bit if you're gonna do it." And Carteau sees Bo, and he's like charismatic-

• 27:40Speaker 04

  That's my guy.

• 27:40Robert Evans?

  -war hero, good at getting media attention, and Carteau kinda scouts him to be the VP candidate, right? Bo says that he was poached directly by Willis Carteau, although Bo would then later claim that he was shocked and appalled when at that year's convention for the Populist Party, the presidential nomination was won by another fella you might have heard of: David Duke.

• 28:07Speaker 04

  I'll tell you what, man, this Carteau guy must be really smiling in hell right now.

• 28:12Robert Evans?

  Oh, he's having a great time in hell.

• 28:14Speaker 04

  He's having a great time in hell right now.

• 28:16Robert Evans?

  Oh my god, yeah.

• 28:20Speaker 06

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• 28:49Robert Evans?

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• 29:48Robert Evans?

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• 30:01Robert Evans?

  Now, I will say this. In interviews, because Boeck writes, as with other parts of his life, gives two different stories. The one that he gives at the time and the one that he gives years later. When people ask, years later, he will be like, "Oh, I was horrified." The instant I heard that David Duke was the presidential candidate, within 48 hours, I'd resigned. I would absolutely never have worked with such a racist. At the time, in news articles written immediately afterwards...

• 30:28Robert Evans?

  Beau said he was okay with working with Duke because he met with David Duke and made him promise, solemn swear promise, not to be a racist in the campaign, in the campaign, not to have a racist campaign. And David Duke said it wasn't gonna be a racist campaign. What more can you ask? You know?

• 30:45Speaker 04

  He said he wasn't gonna do it.

• 30:47Robert Evans?

  Seems, sounds fine to me.

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Take a man by his word.

• 30:50Robert Evans?

  He promised! A Klansman's prom- okay, well, you know. All right.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ, Robert.

• 30:59Robert Evans?

  So, the good news is that after they lost, Beau complained to Carteau-

• 31:05Speaker 04

  You could stop that sentence right there. The good news is-

• 31:08Robert Evans?

  The good news is that they lost.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  They lost.

• 31:10Robert Evans?

  For now, yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  For now.

• 31:12Robert Evans?

  I know, right? Let's not think too much about what's happening on all that. Yeah, yeah. So, the good news is that Beau complained, after they lost, to Willis Carteau that David Duke did, quote, "more harm to the populist party than Hitler would've." Now-

• 31:29Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 31:30Robert Evans?

  This, this, I'm gonna give you a second. This kind of insinuates to me that Beau would've been okay with running as the VP for Hitler.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  No, literally. That's exactly what he just said.

• 31:40Robert Evans?

  Is that not maybe what he's saying a little bit?

• 31:42Speaker 04

  At first, I was like, okay, let him cook. Let me, like, what are you trying to say here? Like, help me understand.

• 31:47Robert Evans?

  Uh huh.

• 31:48Speaker 04

  And, yeah, 'cause my first thought was, yeah, like, so you'd be cool-

• 31:53Robert Evans?

  You might've run with Hitler if he'd promised not to run a racist campaign.

• 31:56Speaker 04

  As long as Hitler don't do a racist campaign.

• 31:58Robert Evans?

  Hitler's on his best behavior.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  We can go to Olive Garden.

• 32:03Robert Evans?

  No, I'm sorry, I don't know why.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  Or go to Corral.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Are you hungry or something? What's happening?

• 32:09Robert Evans?

  I just think Hitler in Olive Garden is a funny image, Sophie. 'Cause when you're there, you're family. So-

• 32:19Speaker 04

  Bro, you are on a roll today.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  You think he was a super salad guy? I think salads.

• 32:25Robert Evans?

  He was a salad guy, canonically.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  He's salad and unlimited breadsticks all day.

• 32:31Robert Evans?

  Definitely unlimited breadsticks.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  That man is not ordering a plate.

• 32:34Robert Evans?

  I'm actually, in the, in the audience is a very dear friend of mine who, we decided at some, at one point, I'm not really sure why, to come in at Olive Garden one day on a Tuesday, the very minute they opened, at nine or 10 in the morning. Now, we were both wearing skirts that we'd sewn each other, and we both had t-shirts that had our favorite conspiracy theory on them. I do forget what mine was, but he'd just said, "Michael Jackson was murdered", written on the front of a white t-shirt in Sharpie. And we proceeded to sit down.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  Who are you, bro?

• 33:06Robert Evans?

  The reason why we showed up is Olive Garden sells 3-liter bottles of wine. So we ordered two of them, and then we, nothing but 6 liters of wine and breadsticks. And the experiment, because we also brought with us a big roll of butcher paper, and we started outlining the conspiracies that we like, believed ruled the world. So we were drawing like a big flowchart, talking about the Freemasons and all of these different conspiracies. And the goal was, when will they stop serving us breadsticks? And eventually, it did get to the point where we got half a breadstick on a plate, and I was like, "Yeah, it's probably time to bounce."

• 33:40Speaker 04

  Hey, let me ask y'all this, let me ask y'all this. As, as fans of this show, how many times have you thought to yourself, "How has this man survived? Like, how are you still alive?" I be thinking that, like, like, "How are you still alive, fam?"

• 33:56Robert Evans?

  I will say, as soon as we got back to my house, my friend who was in the audience vomited so much on the floor. I almost made it to the toilet, so. I'm just bragging a little bit, pretty close. Not at all, not at all. Like, literally like, 3 and 1/2 feet further. Anyway, back to the story, so.

• 34:17Robert Evans?

  The good news is, well, not the good news. He runs again in 1992, this time as the presidential candidate for the populist party, and he does twice as well as David Duke, winning .1% of the national popular vote to Duke's .05. So, you know, not bad. That same year, 92, Bo played what would be arguably his one positive role in US political culture, which is when he kind of ended the Ruby Ridge standoff. So, if you're vaguely familiar, there's this guy, Randy Weaver, and his friends in the Aryan Nations. He gets paid by a dude who turns out to be an ATF agent to saw off some shotguns, and

• 35:01Robert Evans?

  then they raid his house, and an agent is shot dead by, I forget which member of his group killed the agent, but an ATF agent's killed, and the ATF kills his young son, who's a child, and his wife, right? And a big, this is called Ruby Ridge, huge standoff, this is like a seminal moment in the fucking militia movement. It's a big deal, and because Gritz is a really famous figure in the militia movement, he gets, like, he basically, I think he reaches out directly to the feds, actually, but anyway, he winds up flown in and talks to Randy Weaver and talks Weaver down. And the siege ends without further loss of life. This is a legitimate thing that Bo did, and it's good, right? It's good that more people, because Bo had, or Randy had his kid, like, I'm not, I don't

• 35:45Robert Evans?

  care that much about Randy, but he had another kid, right? You don't want them to die. And that's good. This is the only good thing that Bo does. But he did do that. Now, because Randy Weaver had some close ties to the Aryan Nations, and because Gritz's 1992 campaign was seen as a watershed moment for white supremacists in the US, Bo was accused of himself being a racist. Can you believe it? Now, Idaho State University professor James Aho told the SPLC, the Southern Poverty Law Center, that as far as he could see, Gritz wasn't, quote, "an out-and-out racist." And Gritz himself repeatedly emphasized that he had two Asian-American children, so he couldn't be racist.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  Of course he did, he was in them huts.

• 36:34Robert Evans?

  He was in that hut, yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 04

  He was in them huts. You can't be racist, you in them huts. The hell are we talking about, man?

• 36:42Robert Evans?

  Now, I think it's accurate to say that Bo's primary motivation wasn't white supremacy. But it's kinda weird to say that he wasn't an out and out racist, given some comments he made about people of the Jewish faith. Per the SPLC, earlier this year, this is 2005, I think, in a lengthy diatribe falsely alleging Jewish control of the media and financial institutions, he wrote, "Why is there such an intense effort toward Jewish control? I don't think it is right for such a small, special interest group to control our nation."

• 37:14Speaker 04

  Wait, wait, 2005? Old is this man?

• 37:18Robert Evans?

  He's still alive.

• 37:19Speaker 04

  God!

• 37:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I know, it's a bummer.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Dang it, man!

• 37:22Robert Evans?

  Elsewhere, he wrote, "Do you see the sign, the scent, the stain, and mark of the beast on America today? Are you willing to submit and join this seed line of Satan? Look to those who are openly anti-Christ. Who in the world is promoting abortion, pornography, pedophilia, godless laws, adultery, new age international banking, entertainment industry, and world publishing? Wherever you find a perversion of God's laws, you will find the worshippers of Baal with their roots still in Babylonian mysticism."

• 37:51Speaker 04

  What the... What are you talking about?

• 37:56Robert Evans?

  He's not an out and out racist.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  This man named, it just, even his racism being just broken, this man naming all the enemies

• 38:08Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 38:08Speaker 04

  of the Israelites, you know what I'm saying? They worship, yeah. I'm, I'm, look, look, I grew up in church, y'all.

• 38:16Robert Evans?

  Well, he's, he is arguing that that's Judaism, is worshiping Baal. That's the...

• 38:21Speaker 04

  That's what I'm trying to say, I'm like, bruh, that's the op-

• 38:24Robert Evans?

  Never mind. We don't need to argue with Bo Gritz on theology. But the point of it is that like, I mean, to be fair, in rural Idaho, that is kinda middle of the road racism, right? Like, he's not an extremist for rural Idaho.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  He's the free trial version, right?

• 38:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah. In January of 1993, after losing his second presidential election, Bo pivoted to a new grift. He started SPIKE. S.P.I.K.E. It's an acronym.

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Stop letting him name things.

• 38:54Robert Evans?

  I know.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  He's so annoying.

• 38:56Robert Evans?

  SPIKE was a training program that stood for "Specially Prepared Individuals for Key Events."

• 39:02Speaker 03

  That means nothing.

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Bruh, I swear, I was so worried you was about to say like SPIKE TV.

• 39:07Robert Evans?

  No, he founded SPIKE TV?

• 39:08Speaker 04

  He founded SPIKE TV? I was like...

• 39:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, the idea was, he was bringing in experts to teach classes that would turn... You could like order VHS tapes off the internet, and it will turn you into a special forces operator, if you watch enough of them, right? That's all that's standing in between you and being a Navy SEAL is watching enough VHS tapes. That's actually true.

• 39:31Robert Evans?

  Buy the VHS tape cassette series I've got going on. I don't know what to call it. I didn't think of an acronym, sorry. Anyway, SPIKE winds up ultimately building a video library of about 100 hours of content that they would ship to anyone willing to pay. Now, by the early 90s, Bo had also relocated to the Pacific Northwest, where we all call home.

• 39:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, because this is coincidentally right around the same time as the so-called Northwest Imperative really gets going. This is the idea of moving white people en masse to this part of the country in order to create a new white homeland. Now, it starts to really pick up... It doesn't start... It starts to really pick up steam in the 90s, right? And coincidentally, this is also when Bo launches a new business venture.

• 40:16Speaker 03

  What does he call it?

• 40:18Robert Evans?

  Well, I'm telling you. He sells parcels of land in an intentional community for members of the militia movement called Almost Heaven.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  Stop letting him name things.

• 40:28Robert Evans?

  Built as a constitutional covenant community, Almost Heaven was a way to take the underlying ideology of the Northwest Imperative and extend it beyond stock Nazism to something palatable for a wider, but still far-right, audience. He claimed to have picked the location by studying maps of nuclear fallout and military bases to determine the safest place in America.

• 40:50Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 40:50Robert Evans?

  I think it's where the land was cheapest. He announced the start of this new venture by crashing a Camea Town Hall meeting in 1994 and declaring the public school system a cesspool and accusing the local government of being run by, and then he uses a slur for gay people that starts with F. Local resident and activist Larry Nims later claimed, "Gritz came here and made a lot of noise. He told people that if they didn't like him, then get out of Dodge." And I'm thinking, who is he to tell people around here to get out of Dodge? He didn't even live in Dodge yet. And Nims, my heart goes out. Nims is like a progressive activist in rural Idaho in the early 90s, who's like, we'll talk about, like, Bo is the one who brought a lot of guys with guns out here, right?

• 41:34Robert Evans?

  Like, this has not not been a problem before him, but he really makes, like, the current state of affairs is seriously influenced by Gritz, right?

• 41:42Speaker 04

  It's amazing.

• 41:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 41:43Speaker 04

  So I'm just like, learning, like, that's amazing.

• 41:46Robert Evans?

  It's fucking bummer, yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm like, I'm really learning.

• 41:48Robert Evans?

  The Aryan nations had been out in Hayden Lake previously, so it's not entirely under Gritz, but he does play a significant role in this because of how famous he is, right?

• 41:57Speaker 04

  I still just wonder, and it's like, this, this sounds like a joke, but I'm like dead serious. I'm like, man, what, what do they eat?

• 42:07Speaker 04

  I'm like-

• 42:07Robert Evans?

  Nazi? Oh, no, guys, well-

• 42:09Speaker 04

  But like, if you were gonna make an Almost Heaven, because I'm like-

• 42:11Robert Evans?

  You can still go to the grocery store.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  And so, yeah, so I used to live in Portland. I lived in Portland a while back, you know what I'm saying? But like, I mean, this is like the, the, the double dragon joint with the like, the, this pock, pock, like, I'm like, there's so many good places to eat here. I'm like, you, you don't want that?

• 42:30Robert Evans?

  Like, no, no. He's living in the woods, eating dried food that he bought off of, uh, what's his name? Baker, the fucking, uh, weirdo, weird, yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Jim Baker.

• 42:40Robert Evans?

  Jim Baker, thank you very much. I recently watched the movie, by the way, about him that came out recently with Andrew Garfield. Good.

• 42:47Speaker 04

  Why y'all haven't got no, like, Old Bay, like, just-

• 42:50Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Season some good-

• 42:52Robert Evans?

  Well, that's why it's Almost Heaven.

• 42:54Speaker 04

  It's Almost Heaven.

• 42:55Robert Evans?

  It's Almost Heaven. They forgot the seasoning.

• 42:57Speaker 04

  It's low-sodium heaven.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  So, wow.

• 43:02Robert Evans?

  Almost Heaven worked for a little while. Unfortunately, Bo and his business partner made the bad decision to buy their land as a common law trust. And I don't know a lot about this, but the way in which they did this made it very difficult for their customers to get titles, basically impossible. They couldn't get titles to their property in their names, and they couldn't get property insurance in their own names, which is a problem. A flurry of lawsuits followed by people who thought that they had been conned, pretty true, accurately. And problems escalated as contractors started suing Gritz and his business partner for failing to pay for road construction and other infrastructure work. They kind of took a leaf out of the Trump book, right?

• 43:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:42Robert Evans?

  The slow collapse of Almost Heaven was escalated both by incompetence like this and the fact that, more than anything, Bo wanted to make money, not fund a right-wing revolution. And a lot of his critics on the right are like, "Bo, aren't you making the army that's going to liberate us?" No? Oh. So, the other problem is that Bo keeps taking calls throughout the late 90s from the FBI to try and talk down militia groups like the Montana Freeman, which ultimately alienated his third wife, Claudia, a former karate instructor.

• 44:15Speaker 04

  Did I miss the second wife?

• 44:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that was the lady he met, the sex worker that he met. Shockingly, it didn't last.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. Who knew?

• 44:26Robert Evans?

  Marriages that start in Vietnam.

• 44:31Speaker 04

  Stay in Vietnam, that's a good one.

• 44:33Robert Evans?

  So, like all those POWs, by the end of 1998...

• 44:39Speaker 03

  That was good. That was very good.

• 44:42Robert Evans?

  By the end of 1998, Bo's business partner had stolen nearly all of the money made by Almost Heaven, and Claudia left him after 24 years of marriage.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  Claudia did 24 years?

• 44:53Robert Evans?

  She did. Fucking in there a while.

• 44:55Speaker 03

  Girl.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  She stuck it out.

• 44:57Robert Evans?

  Bo attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest in December of 1998, but he survived and is still alive today.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  God.

• 45:11Robert Evans?

  I don't have a happy ending here. He did shoot himself. Again, for whatever reason, a through line in this guy's story is people shooting themselves in weird ways. The chest? I'm sorry. I'm not trying to backseat Kilbo Grites to Bo Grites, but...

• 45:27Speaker 04

  However.

• 45:28Robert Evans?

  However.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 45:30Robert Evans?

  All right. That concludes the Behind the Bastards episodes.

• 45:34Speaker 04

  Jeez.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards.

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• 46:40Speaker 07

  This January, bare-knuckle fighting championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Brews Cruise sails from Miami to the Bahamas aboard the Norwegian Jewel. Three straight days with pool-deck bare-knuckle fights in the Caribbean. Massive parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings, and non-stop action. The lineup reveals coming soon. Cabins are disappearing fast, and the prices won't stay this low. Reserve your spot with just $200 down at bkfsea.com.

• 47:09Speaker 06

  Having peace of mind for your home, family, and connected life is more important than ever. Introducing Xfinity Shield, a force field for your home and devices with built-in Wi-Fi features. That protect from threats at home and online. With the Xfinity Gateway, you can detect movement in your home. No cameras needed. Plus, get always on protection for all your devices the moment you connect. So you can rest easy and stream more of your favorite podcasts on iHeartRadio. Get it now at Xfinity.com/shield. Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas. Xfinity Internet and compatible equipment required.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.