Part Three: The Pol Pot Episodes: How A Nice, Quiet Kid Murdered His Country

Pol Pot and his friends are now in charge of Cambodia and in a remarkably short period of time they manage to kill two million people. Including a leftist academic from the UK who thought the Khmer Rouge was rad. Here's how! See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Holy crap. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a rare three-part episode. You motherfuckers, you lucky sons of bitches and rat bastards are getting three episodes this week. I am now legally your father. You're welcome. Hi Sophie. Hi Andrew T. How are you guys doing? Did that intro work?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't need to be responsible for people. We, we are.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  I like that. That's, that's like leprechaun rules. Like, episodes three, I'm your father.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  I don't think you're, I don't, I'm gonna say something really, I don't think you're their father. I think you're their daddy.

• 0:44Robert Evans?

  No, no, that, that feels a lot worse for me, actually.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think that's what that legally means is you're not father, you're, you're daddy.

• 0:52Robert Evans?

  I'm like, I'm like one of those dads that like should pay child support, but instead I live on a boat in, in the harbor of fucking New Orleans and.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  Are you, are you a libertarian in this scenario?

• 1:05Robert Evans?

  No, no, no, but I definitely don't believe in the moon landing. Um, this is Behind the Bastards. Again, a podcast, you're enjoying part three of our Pol Pot episodes. And basically the way it goes here, this, folks, we have a massive audience and I'm always trying to like, do the most I can to like, please the most people, which you can't do with every episode. You know, some people don't like certain kinds, some people don't like the cult leaders. Some people don't like the dictator. Some people only want the dictators. And likewise, you know, we've started doing a lot more four-parters over the last couple of years, in part because there were guys where I felt like I'm kind of doing a disservice to try to limit this to two episodes. And a lot of people really like the four-parters and say,

• 1:47Robert Evans?

  this is my favorite part of the show. And a lot of people say, I don't like, I prefer the two-parters. So we try to like, go with variety, right?

• 1:55Speaker 01

  We mix it up.

• 1:56Robert Evans?

  That everybody's regularly getting what they want. And I didn't, so I didn't want to do a four-parter for Pol Pot. And then I wrote 14,000 words on him and was like, god damn it, Robert. Because there is really that much to say. So this is all to say, I, I didn't want to break this up over two weeks for the people who are tired of four-parters. So I just, we're just giving you three episodes this week. So you're fucking welcome.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Robert, Robert, would you say we're not like all the other girls?

• 2:22Robert Evans?

  We're a lot like all the other girls.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  I'm not. We're also gonna be.

• 2:26Robert Evans?

  In that all girls are beautiful.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Okay. To get through the words, we're gonna be talking super fast. So if you put this on like point six six speed, you can make yourself a fourth episode.

• 2:37Robert Evans?

  I'm actually gonna slow down a lot just to, yeah. No.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Guaranteed human.

• 2:47Robert Evans?

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• 3:19Speaker 04

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• 3:49Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, hey, Robert.

• 3:50Robert Evans?

  Yes?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Did you know that Better Offline and Weird Little Guys won their Webby categories?

• 3:56Robert Evans?

  Did they? Did they? Did Better Offline and Weird Little Guys, two new weekly podcasts launched by Cool Zone last year, both won Webby's in their first year?

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, they did.

• 4:10Robert Evans?

  That's astonishing. Yeah, you know, I'm very proud of our, of our little team, who despite being very, very small in terms of, you know, the broader podcasting universe, has way more listeners than most of the other podcast networks out there and actual fans, because we don't just Buy a bunch of downloads, like some people I'm not gonna name, but we could just like bleep out and pretend that I accused whoever the fuck of doing that. So yeah, you know, we're, uh, we're, we're, we're the, we're the, we're the Vietnam. And, you know, let's say our enemies and the Pod Save guys are the Khmer Rouge of podcasts, right?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  They also, they also on our web, yeah, so.

• 4:55Robert Evans?

  I, I, I know, I know. I don't know why. It's literally just like the only other podcast network I can remember off the top of my head usually. So we shit on them a lot. I don't know.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Empires go. Podcast empire, a lot, lot smaller body count than most empires.

• 5:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Well, the exception of the Joe Rogan podcast, which he actually might wind up creeping up on old Pol Pot's members. You give him some time and some more testosterone shots.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:21Robert Evans?

  So as I noted at the end of the last episode, Pol Pot had made it to the standing committee in 1960. And then the party leader of the Communist Party of Cambodia, a guy named Samoth, was assassinated three years later, probably by the King's Security Services, although we don't know. So some people think maybe Pol Pot orchestrated it. But anyway, he winds up in charge as a result of this. And yeah, initially, the people that he's fighting against as he's like leading this increasingly large and capable communist insurgency is King Sihannak's monarchy, right? Which he battled out of a headquarters named Office 100. And this is a mobile headquarters, right? We're talking about a jungle insurgency.

• 6:04Robert Evans?

  So he's moving constantly to, to stay ahead of the King's intelligence, which is in a large part provided by his American allies, right? Because for the US, his fighting against the Khmer Rouge is kind of part of the broader struggle against communism in Vietnam. And, you know, to be fair, the Vietnamese are still running a decent amount of what the Cambodian communists are doing even in this period. And like the mid 60s, they hold a lot of sway because they have a lot, they're a major source of weapons, right? They're, they're more organized. But the Cambodian party is getting a lot more independent during this period of time.

• 6:43Robert Evans?

  And Saloth Sar is kind of making it his business to both increase that independence and to make friends with the people he needs to beg for guns, because they're not really capable of manufacturing weapons in the jungle.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  That's a fucking very, very vivid setup. What was the name of the headquarters again?

• 7:03Robert Evans?

  Office 100.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  That fucking rules.

• 7:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's very cool stuff. I mean, it's always when you're talking about like an underground insurgency, you've got this secret leader. Nobody knows his name. Again, it's a real bummer from a narrative standpoint. I would have had him born Pol Pot and switch to Saloth Sar because that's such a cool name. Like, it's such a scary name.

• 7:28Robert Evans?

  But whatever.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  That's how they change it up. He's subverting expectations and.

• 7:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  A few further dominoes will fall.

• 7:36Robert Evans?

  Just like Ryan Johnson's Star Wars movies. And like Ryan Johnson's Star Wars movies, Saloth Sar travels to Beijing in order to beg for weapons.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  That is true, actually.

• 7:47Robert Evans?

  That is partly true, yes.

• 7:50Robert Evans?

  And so he is like, he is, and he's talking with, obviously with, with, with Ho Chi Minh City, or with, you know, with, with the Vietnamese communists. And they are coordinating, but never to the extent that the West kind of imagines, right? Even though they're very dependent on the Vietnamese for a while, they never like it. And there is absolutely no desire among the Cambodian communists or among Pol Pot to be tightly aligned with Vietnam. This like fantasy that the US has that China and all these Southeast Asian states are going to form like one unified communist bloc is, is just absolutely, anyone with the slightest degree of a knowledge of any of these people would be like, what the fuck are you? No, they hate each other.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I mean, just even meeting four different Asian people anywhere, you could probably, you could probably extrapolate some of this shit.

• 8:43Robert Evans?

  Talk to a Vietnamese dude about China. Like, seriously, have a Conver fucking station. In 1970, Suhannak's regime is overthrown because again, the war is not going well for him. He's not particularly good at running Cambodia. And a bunch of these kind of right wing leaders in the military with the backing of the United States gets pissed off. So when, when the. King like, I think he's actually technically calling himself the prince because he gives up his royal title to quote unquote, run for office, whatever. Sahannick leaves the country on like a diplomatic visit and there's a coup. And the coup is headed by this guy called Lon Nol. Lon Nol is actually the brother of Salothsar's childhood best friend.

• 9:26Robert Evans?

  And obviously like because of that Lon Nol's brother is a major part of the regime Lon Nol sets up. And he's like, yeah, probably if Salas, if the, if the communists win, my friendship with, you know, Salothsar will protect me. It doesn't, by the way, this guy gets the fucking shit liquidated out of him. And the fact that there's a family connection, you know, or a, a deep connection between, between Salothsar, who's leading the communists and, you know, the family of Lon Nol, does nothing to temper the brutality of the conflict that follows. Now, a lot of this comes directly as a result of Lon Nol's policies, right? This is not just, Pol Pot is running a very brutal insurgency, but it's brutal in response to the sheer violence unleashed by Noel in order to try to maintain control.

• 10:11Robert Evans?

  As soon as the monarchy is abolished, the so-called Khmer Republic begins calling on the US to continue and extend their bombing campaign in Cambodia, which had started clandestinely and very illegally in 1969 under Nixon as a way to try and stop Vietnamese communists from being able to supply themselves, right? There's this idea, it's accurate idea that Cambodia is a big part of, of how the Vietcong are like supplying and this is where they're retreating to in order to regather their strength. That is essentially accurate and we are bombing them for years and pretending not to. And now when Lon Nol is in power, we don't have to like lie because we're being invited, right? Now we're being invited by this coup that we set up, right?

• 10:55Robert Evans?

  The US would ultimately drop more than half a million tons on Cambodia in a four-year period of time. And for an idea of like, how many explosives that is, I mean, that sounds like a lot, right? 500,000 tons is a lot of weight. That's more than the total weight of bombs dropped on the Empire of Japan during all of World War II. And, right, here's the thing. These bombs are being dropped both to deal with Vietcong tunnel complexes and some of their bases and to stop the Khmer Rouge. The Khmer Rouge has no industrial base. Their weapons have to be smuggled in. They are not like building tanks.

• 11:38Robert Evans?

  They don't have cities that are like functioning as part of an industrial core. The Empire of Japan was one of the most powerful industrialized states on the planet, and we dropped more bombs on Cambodia than we did on them.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:54Robert Evans?

  Like, right? That's...

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 11:57Robert Evans?

  It's fucking... And we nuked Japan famously, right? Like, the degree of force that we deploy on these guys is outrageous, and we get fuck all for it. Like, this could not have been a less useful use of force. Not that that would have made it like moral. If it had won us the war, it wouldn't be okay. I'm not saying that. But it like, this is just like the biggest L a military... One of the biggest Ls a military ever took is our operations in Cambodia.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Not just evil, but also somehow extreme, even more pointless than some of the other wars.

• 12:33Robert Evans?

  Like, and that's the thing. I tried to make this clear in the Kissinger episodes. Like, it's not just how evil he is, because he gets depicted as like this evil genius a lot. He sucked so much shit at a lot of what he was doing.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:48Robert Evans?

  Between 150,300 Cambodians probably died. That's a credible death toll, although there's a lot of arguments that both of those numbers either is much too low, right? That it's significantly higher than 300,000. You can find some lower estimates. 150 to 3 is kinda, you know, somewhere. It's that's close enough for what we're talking about here. It's a crime. It's a historic crime against humanity, right?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:15Robert Evans?

  Most of those dead are civilians, including a shitload of little kids who are just incinerated from the sky by the United States Air Force. So the fact that we're doing this, the fact that we are incinerating entire villages, we're just lighting little kids on fire from the sky, makes people angry. The folks who don't die and who previously had what had their ambition in life had been to like, you know, be a peasant, feed my family, live a life, you know, like be a normal Cambodian person. Their ambitions changed after their families get incinerated and suddenly they're like, you know what would be cool? Killing a bunch of people in revenge, you know, getting my vengeance.

• 13:58Robert Evans?

  And so a lot of peasants start flocking to the banner of the Khmer Rouge, which had not been super popular previously, right? It had been growing before this bombing campaign escalates, but not massively. The bombing campaign's primary result is to supercharge support for the Khmer Rouge because wouldn't you want to shoot somebody?

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is, it is, I mean, that's eternally the best recruiting tool.

• 14:24Robert Evans?

  Yes, and I'll never say anything to mitigate or reduce the complicity and the responsibility of Pol Pot and the leaders for the crimes that are about to happen, but the crimes are being committed directly on the ground by a lot of these young people from the jungle who grow up under this bombing campaign and then join the guerrilla. And I can't, no matter how hideous things are, I can't really blame them, which isn't saying that it's okay or justified. It's just saying that like, you ruined people and they went insane.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  It's explainable. It's extremely explainable.

• 15:04Robert Evans?

  Like, no one's capable of acting rationally with the damage that you have done to them, you know?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:10Robert Evans?

  With the exception, again, of these people at the top, guys like Pol Pot, who do not grow up, are not raised being bombed or, you know, living under these horrible conditions in the jungle. These are, these are people of privilege, of education, who had the opportunity to pick a different path and did choose horror, right? And that's where my blame lies here. I want to quote from an article for the Mass Violence and Resistance Research Network by David Chandler next. Quote. And this is kind of describing how the Khmer Rouge develops as a result of all this. The small-scale guerrilla movement, which he had launched against the Hennix government in the late 1960s, developed with Vietnamese and Chinese backing into a full-scale resistance army, fighting the American-backed Long Nol regime in Nam Pen.

• 15:54Robert Evans?

  At the same time, Saar developed the distinctive ideology, which made the CPK, that's the Communist Party of Cambodia, very different from other Marxist-Leninist parties. He mistrusted the working class, relying instead on the poor peasantry, whom he saw as the incarnation of Rousseau's noble savage. His party functioned like a sect, and some authors underline that his communism was colored by Cambodian Buddhist structures. Its members were required to renounce not only material possessions, but also spiritual ties. The ultimate goal was to crush individual personality and replace it by unquestioning adherence to the collectivity. Discipline was ferocious, security omnipresent. Saar abhorred the limelight, preferring to operate from the shadows and using multiple

• 16:38Robert Evans?

  aliases: Polk, Hay, Eighty Seven, Pole, Grand Uncle, Elder Brother, First Brother, and in later years, Ninety Nine or Pim. Yet his fanaticism was masked by great personal charisma. People who met him remembered his winning smile and considerable talent as an orator.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  I mean, a sick-ass list of nicknames.

• 17:03Robert Evans?

  It is pretty cool.

• 17:04Speaker 02

  I know I'm fixating, I'm fixating on all the names, but they're fucking rad.

• 17:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's hard not to, right? Like, for whatever reason, I think Eighty Seven is my pick.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is Eighty Seven based off? Did you find that out?

• 17:22Robert Evans?

  I don't actually know. I probably could have figured it out, but I didn't come across that in my reading. Now, because this isn't-

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Exercise for the listener.

• 17:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Find out what it is that happened.

• 17:33Robert Evans?

  Now, because this isn't a military history podcast and the overall story of Cambodia during this period is so much more detailed than we can get into, I'm gonna have to yada yada a lot of how, how the rebellion, you know, succeeds.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  I love when you yada yada. Please yada yada.

• 17:48Robert Evans?

  Yada yada. The gist of it is Lon Nol's government was only capable of holding the line against the communists with US backing and even then, not all that well. By the early 1970s, it had become clear that there was an expiration date on that assistance. The Khmer Rouge grew larger with each atrocity by the right-wing government and their allies. In areas where the Rouge took power, everyone old enough to fight was drafted into the military and everyone else was put to work. The all-black garb of the peasantry, which had just kind of been a traditional thing in Cambodia, became the only acceptable outfit to wear. You're literally not allowed to dress differently. Those who refused to serve were executed. By 1973, most of rural Cambodia was in Rouge hands. And I gotta say, the one aspect of

• 18:31Robert Evans?

  the Khmer Rouge I could've done great with is just kinda wearing black pajamas all the time. Like, I got that shit on lock, baby. Like, I'm wearing this, like, sport coat thing, but it's just black pajamas under this motherfucker, guys.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, this is, this is, this is the tragedy of the YouTube era.

• 18:48Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Is this fucking sport coat, when you know Robert could just be full jammed out.

• 18:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. And I am. This thing doesn't, doesn't reduce the comfort. It's fine. Don't worry. Don't worry. I'm polepotting under this. So-

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  That's what he says. That's what he says every episode. It's not just this one.

• 19:05Robert Evans?

  The final straw for Lon Nol's regime is when Prince Sahanak, hiding in exile, announced his support for Pol Pot's rebels. Now, we've done, we did a two-parter, one of our very first episodes on Notre Dame Sahanak. He sucks ass. Listen to those episodes as to why. But the reason he does this is he believed that, like, you know, he thought this might give him a shot at returning to power, right? If I back these guys, clearly they won't last and eventually I'll be able to make my way back in, right? What really happens is he strengthens the Khmer Rouge at a critical moment, because again, people, the peasantry- Feel very strongly about the royalty, right? And that still has not been busted, even though he really sucked ass when he was actually running things.

• 19:46Robert Evans?

  He does this right as the US is starting to pull out their assets and things fall very quickly. Think about kind of how long the government of Afghanistan lasted as the US pulled out, right? That's kind of what we're seeing here. On April 17th, 1975, Lon Nol's army collapsed entirely and the Khmer Rouge entered Nam Penh. Now, you gotta remember at this point, you know, when they take the capital, the fighting has been going on in parts of Cambodia for 20 years or more. People are fucking exhausted. And as always the case in times like this, there was an optimism among like a lot of regular people that like, "Look, I don't know so much about these Khmer Rouge guys, but the war's over. Maybe things will get better," right?

• 20:29Robert Evans?

  There's this hope and that hope is crushed very quickly. Because Pol Pot and his comrades, it's not even that they don't want to go back to normal. In their minds, going back to normal is a death sentence, right?

• 20:43Robert Evans?

  And again, this is kind of what messes with a lot of people's casual understanding of what's happening. Cause you would think, well, obviously these guys have to hate the US more than anybody else, right? Not at all the case. The people, the Pol Pot's obsession is Vietnam. That is the real enemy, not capitalism, not the United States, not the West, Vietnam. Saigon fell to the, to the NVA, not far from when Nam Penh did, right? And because of this, because Vietnam has won its war too, there's this immediate widespread paranoia among the Khmer Rouge leadership that the Vietnamese are going to digest their meal of southern Vietnam.

• 21:24Robert Evans?

  And then they're immediately going to take this big army they've got with tanks and aircraft and all sorts of modern weapons that the Khmer Rouge does not really have access to. And they're going to cross the border and they're going to invade Cambodia. And they're going to take us out and make us nothing but a tribute state, right? Like that is the immediate fear. And the only way to resist this future, to have a chance of defeating Vietnam and Maintaining Khmer autonomy is to rapidly change the country, both in terms of how food is produced and how like to and to do this kind of, they're very motivated by these ideas they'd taken from Mao that kind of became the great leap forward in China of like,

• 22:05Robert Evans?

  well, what if we do industrialism? But it's like everybody's backyard is helping to like make different sort of industrial products, right?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the, I guess it's just DIY approach to making, you know, your AKs and your plate armor and.

• 22:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And you can kind of do that with guns, but not like the guns you need to win a modern war, right? You're not going to be like making an SPG nine in your backyard or whatever fucking shit.

• 22:35Robert Evans?

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• 22:49Speaker 02

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• 22:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah, freedom, fuck.

• 22:54Robert Evans?

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• 23:53Robert Evans?

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• 25:04Robert Evans?

  Ah, and I'm back. Okay, so, cities, like the capital, have no place in Pol Pot's radical view of the future of the country, which needs to be immediately changed on a fundamental level in order to survive and defeat the Vietnamese. So there's this plan that's hatched by Pol Pot and the leadership of the party to completely reform Cambodian society in order to make it capable of surviving. And Pol Pot names this plan "Year Zero." In April of 1975, they declare this openly. And this "Year Zero" concept, we talked about this in the earlier episodes,

• 25:48Robert Evans?

  it's based in part on Pol Pot's understanding of the French Revolution, right? As well as reading from guys like Thomas Paine, because he does read like American revolutionaries too. And in 1776, Paine had published this, quote, "We have it in our power to begin the world over again. A situation similar to the present hath not happened since the days of Noah until now. The birthday of a new world is at hand." And this is the kind of thing you hear in some like optimistic revolutionary tracts, especially in the headiness of like, we've defeated the regime. We have this chance for a total break with history, right? There's even, you can, you can think about kind of

• 26:29Robert Evans?

  the whole, the end of history stuff that was being said at the, when the Soviet Union fell. There's this headiness of like, well, maybe, maybe we're done competing with like, what kind of systems are going to work? Maybe we've, maybe we can, we're entering into this fundamentally new world that's like, represents this real break of continuity. And, and that means we're, we're never going to have to worry about like, going back to, to any of the bad old days or the problems that we had struggled against.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  There's no back.

• 26:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah. There's no way of going back, right?

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:58Robert Evans?

  We finally did it.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Oh, man. I mean, obviously in hindsight, but like, never has that sentiment been expressed and had not been a true psycho saying it.

• 27:10Robert Evans?

  Right, right, right. I mean, I love me some Thomas Paine, but you should look at the rest of his life. This wasn't, I mean, obviously, we, the US became a slave state, right?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:21Robert Evans?

  I'm going to quote from an article written by Adress Ayers here, quote, "It is evident that the Khmer Rouge, in deliberate and skillful fashion, drew on history for political ends. Their leadership made repeated reference to the importance of grasping the wheel of history and how history would crush those who stood in the way of development." I've heard Musk say some similar things. In 1976, as part of Pol Pot's consolidation of personal power, official party historiography was revised with an eye to the older Indo-Chinese guerrilla fractions within the movement by moving the date of the party's founding from 1951 to 1960. At a meeting of the Central Committee in March 1976, it was noted with regard to historiography that "we must rearrange the history of the party into something clean

• 28:03Robert Evans?

  and perfect. Do not use 1951. Make a clean break." So again, there's this, even our real history of our real movement that one isn't good enough, we have to like, and if, if you're ever in a, if you're ever finding your movement is needing to like, alter the very basic foundation of reality for your ideas to work, maybe bounce.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  I mean, the B side of all the cool names is like a sort of juvenile relationship to like, your own story, which is kind of weirdly in evident here, in evidence here. We're like, why?

• 28:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, this is, and this is why, like, we talk about, the reason why I identify more as an anarchist than anything else, isn't because like, I have some great plan based on some thinker for like, this is the perfect way to reorder society, and if we did this exact thing, based on this exact book, it would clearly work without any problems. I feel that way because, like, anarchists have diagnosed the problem in a way that I'd never seen be wrong, and the problem is, if you give people lots of power-

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:10Robert Evans?

  -they do horrible things.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:13Robert Evans?

  Right? Like, that's, that's, that's kinda where I get into it from, right? And now Polbot has all the power.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, every conceivable dimension that that power can be gained from-

• 29:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  -still bad.

• 29:26Robert Evans?

  Yes, and when you have all of the power, and you have this very strict idea of this, we need to do this exact thing, and this exact thing is the only thing that can save us, and then the world doesn't sort of change the way you think it ought to, based on your political beliefs, well, you're just gonna start killing people, and that's sure enough what's gonna happen here.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:46Robert Evans?

  So the project to make a clean break with history, this whole year zero thing, is urgent, right? Because unless they can do this before Vietnam swallows them up, they're fucked. The internal Marxist analysis also indicated that Cambodia had to proceed directly from feudalism to communism within four years, which they called the "super great leap forward." So again, we already know how this fucking works for Mao, and we're like, "But when did we make it like the super great leap forward?" It's like, you know, Mario Brothers sucked ass, but once we added a "super," it was finally good.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Just do the thing that already didn't work, but more.

• 30:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Mao's just sitting there like, "God damn it, why didn't I put a 'super' in front of it? Fuck, the backyard furnaces would've worked." Super sparrow murdering.

• 30:36Robert Evans?

  In policy terms, year zero had a fairly narrow meaning. The cities, which were dominant, as I stated in the earlier episodes, the cities have a ma- like, they're not overwhelmingly Khmer, like the rest of the country is. They have a lot of Vietnamese and Chinese traders. And a lot of the Khmer that live there are the new people, right? They are educated Khmer who come from families with money, who have gone through Western education, who have often been educated overseas, and have thus been unforgivably tainted by foreign influence. Now, you may also notice, these new people that he's saying we need to expel from the cities are Pol Pot and his friends, right?

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:14Robert Evans?

  Right?

• 31:16Robert Evans?

  Still, the new people have to either assimilate to the base people, and the base people are Khmer peasant farmers, or die. And the distinct preference of the Khmer ruse is that they die. Andrus Ayers describes how jarringly rapid this process is. Quote, "Money, markets, and private property, schools, institutes of higher education, newspapers, and religious institutions all were immediately abolished after the seizure of power. Early eyewitness accounts relate how the hospital in Nam Pen was emptied of patients, how the national bank was set on fire, money burned in the streets. Immediately after the victory proclamation, book burnings were orchestrated in front of the National Library and the School of René Descartes.

• 31:58Robert Evans?

  The country's borders were closed immediately, and the cleansing of the country from foreign influences began by deporting foreigners and domestic minorities such as Vietnamese, Muslim Khmer, Chinese Khmer, Thais, and Europeans. It was also officially announced that the individual would be abolished. The traditional family would be replaced by the movement. In order to create a completely conflict-free society, revolutionaries were officially instructed not to have a personality. The individual was continually counterposed to the people, with the former representing division, factionalism, inequality, bourgeoisie values, and foreign influence. The people, meanwhile, embodied its polar opposite, something entirely pure, redemption,

• 32:41Robert Evans?

  the extermination of particularity and contingency, and the realization of absolute freedom, equality, and fraternity through complete absorption into the Angkor." And that's the people, that's the Volk, right? You know, the Nazis had the Volk, the Angkor is that for the Khmer ruse. It's close enough, at least, right? And yeah. Where revolutionaries are not allowed to have personalities.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I know we're coming at this from a different time and hindsight, but I it's so hard for me to even hear the version of that speech that's stirring or like motivating. It's really wild.

• 33:20Robert Evans?

  And it's motivating to the people who have been drinking the Kool-Aid because again, they've been in these, they started out in these circles where it's just them and their friends continually radicalizing each other further and not really listening to outside people, right? And then they move to the jungle and become rev- so not only are they all like trauma bonding, getting bombed together, but they're continuing to talk out these ideas and just take themselves like, this isn't for other people, right? The point is not to inspire other people, right?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 33:53Robert Evans?

  And it is this, you get, this is an issue I have with like some other people that I otherwise agree with a lot. There's talk amongst certain leftists tendencies about the concept of the abolition of the family. And what they tend to mean in the modern era is looking at a lot of how much of right wing policy is based upon the idea that parents own their children, right? And that literally like anything a parent wants for their kid, that's all that should matter, right? Which leads to a lot of heinous abuse. Some of the worst things that happen in our society is because of our conception of the family as this thing in which the parents, primarily the father, possesses everyone else, right?

• 34:34Robert Evans?

  And wanting to abolish that idea of the family is good, but when you start framing it as family, it's going to bring this up. People are going to think about what the Khmer Rouge did as opposed to being like, I don't think parents should be allowed to poison their kids because they have autism, right?

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 34:49Robert Evans?

  You know? But anyway, we need to get into a rant on that.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  The difference between like absolute power and within the family and... This is not a unit that should exist.

• 35:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, it's this.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Optics is not good.

• 35:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, it's this optic, it's an optical issue, I think. But that's not, you know, the Khmer Rouge is not wanting to abolish the family because there's anything similar to the issue we have with the parental rights movement in the US, right? The Khmer Rouge wants to abolish the family because all they want to exist is the party. And this idea of almost like a collective consciousness, if we can wipe out enough individualism, then like we will have this kind of pure individual close to nature, this like idolized, everyone will be the idolized Camer peasant farmer, who by the way, Pol Pot's parents had fought tooth and nail to make sure he never had to be.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Nah, nah. Don't worry about that.

• 35:44Robert Evans?

  So as soon as they start doing all of this stuff, people begin to starve, right? There's so much disruption, there's disruption to the way food is grown and the way it's transmitted, all of these networks that had existed, it's one thing if you're like, we want to get rid of capitalism and we want to get rid of things being entirely governed by the financial motive, but you have to account for the fact that like, well, but that's how all of the food gets places right now. And like, do you not have a, you have to have a real granular plan for how you're gonna make sure food keeps getting to people? Otherwise, everyone's gonna die. And that's what starts to happen. And people also start to starve to death as they are forced at gunpoint out of the cities. Nam Pen had flooded to significantly higher than its pre-war population because of the

• 36:29Robert Evans?

  war going on, and now these people are being marched out and no one's allowed to take anything. People are being dragged out at gunpoint, in some cases their houses are being burnt down, they don't have a lot of baggage, right? And it's not like people had a lot, were keeping like food on hand, this isn't like a prepper culture, folks don't have like freeze dried shit in their houses. So people are just being forced to walk, a lot of, a number of them have been pulled out of hospitals and they're just dying. They're dying by the tens of thousands alongside the road. And as people march out, they're just seeing these piles of corpses of their neighbors and family members bloating in the sun. It's, it's just a really hideous like nightmare. For all of these people and they're, you know, the, these fighters that they're

• 37:11Robert Evans?

  meeting are folks largely who'd come from like rural areas in the jungle. They're very young. A lot of them are teenagers who have been raised on this war and they, number one, don't have a lot of sympathy for these people in the cities who they've seen as the enemy. The capital is what they've been fighting, if you want to think in like Hunger Games terms here. And also they've been told these are the new people, right? These are the enemy. We do have to get rid of them one way or another. So if you, if you kill these people, if you shoot them by the side of the road, if they starve to death, you're helping to bring about, you're helping to save the Khmer people, right? While most of the deaths under the new regime are caused by disease or famine, they're

• 37:53Robert Evans?

  all intentional. These are all the result of policies set by Pol Pot and his comrades. And the, the expectation of these policies was mass dying. The stage had been set for this in the years leading up to the capital's fall by a process of what is called by genocide scholars, toxification, and specifically toxification through Khmer Rouge propaganda. Toxification, this is a process you can watch happen right now in your very own country, presuming you live in the United States, but well, we're not the only one.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Couple of other countries, yeah.

• 38:24Robert Evans?

  Quite a few other countries. We could talk about some recent Supreme Court rulings in the UK. Toxification is a process often seen in genocide whereby groups of people are depicted as inherently poisonous to the well-being of the body politic, the real people of a community. Soldiers are not in general born willing to fill mass graves or to march an entire city out of their homes and die, right? They are, they're, they're pushed, they're, they're gotten to that point when they have been convinced that doing so is either a form of self-defense or a way to fight their enemy or both, right? And that's what toxification does. There's a very good article on this process called Toxification and the Khmer Rouge Genocide, or Auto Genocide, you'll hear both terms,

• 39:09Robert Evans?

  published in the Journal of Terrorism and Political Violence by Timothy Williams and Rhiannon Nielsen. I recommend reading the whole thing. It's a very good article and it's a very important article. It will be kind of chilling in light of things happening in our present world, but it ought to be. And it details how the messaging from Pol Pot on down through the Khmer Rouge hierarchy seeded the militant population with a kind of toxic attitudes that are a necessary precursor to mass killing. The first people targeted specifically for mass execution were those who had bought into and succeeded under the capitalist system. These were the budding intelligentsia, of whom Pol Pot himself had been a member, professors, lawyers, business owners, government

• 39:50Robert Evans?

  officials. Pol Pot called them the "internal enemy," or "super traitors." He really liked "super."

• 39:59Robert Evans?

  You hear a lot of that.

• 40:02Robert Evans?

  Obviously, this includes people who had been in the military of Lon Nol, right? And the idea was that, and this is Pol Pot's writing, "Anyone with money, quote, 'owed the Communist Party a blood debt,' right? So this is the first stage, and it's pretty easy to get people on board with killing a lot of these folks, right? That said, there's not many of them, right? And once you start mass killing, you don't tend to stop. So next, in 1976, Pol Pot turned the eyes and guns of his men on the "treacherous elements." He accused of causing sickness within the party. These ugly microbes had to be destroyed before they rotted democratic Kampuchea, which is what they're calling Cambodia now, right? Like, once the ruse takes over, it goes from the Khmer Republic to democratic Kampuchea.

• 40:48Robert Evans?

  And Pol Pot writes of these ugly microbes, quote, "What is infected must be cut. What is rotten must be removed. It isn't enough to cut down a bad plant. It must be uprooted."

• 41:01Robert Evans?

  And you see this a lot in genocidal language, right? You know, this is like Hitler calling the Jews the "syphilitic bacillus," right?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, you know, any Thanos line.

• 41:12Robert Evans?

  Any Thanos line.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  It's like, again, it's just so hard to put myself in the mindset where you hear this and you're like, "Let's go."

• 41:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and you also get, this is something we're hearing right now, with the way mental illness and things that are called mental illness is being discussed by the right. There's big news right now about the fact that RFK Junior is putting, trying to get, trying to use government databases to put together a list of everyone with autism. That's how it's being spread on social media. The actual story is even, I would argue even a little worse than that, which is that they are attempting to put together a database of everybody who has been diagnosed with any kind of mental health condition, who is on any kind of medication. It's even broader than just that. And part of what's going on here is that like, there's a big right wing campaign to like blame gun violence

• 42:03Robert Evans?

  on, on the mentally ill, right? And another part of it is that there's a desire to reclassify being transgender and eventually even being LGBT as a mental illness, in part because those people can be disarmed, in part because then you can put those people in, in, you know, facilities or whatever. I tend to think that the, the, the goal that a lot of these people are thinking towards is less Nazi style death camps and gas fans and more a Judge Rotenberg center on every corner. If you want to go back to our Judge Rotenberg Center episodes, but we'll be talking about that in other days. But I, I bring this up to, to, to say this, this is a constant when regimes begin the process that can end in mass killing. And I, I don't think that that's an inevitable state of affairs for us here,

• 42:47Robert Evans?

  but I think people need to be very aware of that because the similarities between these situations are not inconsequential.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  It's, it's necessary, but not sufficient, but it is necessary.

• 43:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  For the death camps version.

• 43:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So Pol Pot argued that these diseased elements of the populace had to be purified so that year zero could ensure a Maoist elimination of contradiction. Turning in counter revolutionary elements became a way to get ahead or to protect yourself. Kadras, which are like members of the, the party are rewarded for their ability to purge the enemy within. Per that article by Williams and Nielsen, violence became a part of everyday life and punishment for infringements of the minutely planned details of society were draconian, often costing people their lives, particularly as most mistakes, such as foraging for food or not eating with the collective, were immediately in interpreted as evidence of counter revolutionary tendencies.

• 43:45Robert Evans?

  Although anyone could fall victim to the system, prime targets for elimination were ethnic Cham and Vietnamese minorities, former soldiers or officials under the Lon Nol regime, intellectuals or others deemed not to fit into a peasant society, as well as any person whom the regime believed to be an internal enemy, mostly associated with being an agent of the CIA, KGB, or the Vietnamese Secret Service. And I think it's it's so interesting, like, part of this is there's such a hatred of this concept of being an individual that even if you're like foraging for food to stop you and your family from starving, that's individualist behavior and you have to be killed for it, right?

• 44:20Speaker 02

  Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, but also, it's like, like, all those rules, I feel like most of those times are asymmetrically applied for, you know, whatever means want to be accomplished.

• 44:32Robert Evans?

  And that's key. And a lot of the people being who these rules are being applied to, it's not even necessarily that they did the thing or that they were the only person doing the thing. A lot of people do the same stuff and give away with it. It's that they had pissed someone else up for another reason, someone wanted their stuff. There's a lot of score settling that happens anytime this kind of shit's going down. And this gets me to an important side of fact about what happened in Cambodia. You you will usually see the mass killing in Cambodia referred to either as the Cambodian genocide or the Khmer Rouge genocide. This term is not, I think, accurate to describe most of what happened because the vast majority of the people who died were, you know, as a part of

• 45:13Robert Evans?

  these year zero policies, were Khmer. And the goal of the regime was not to wipe out the Khmer, right? It was to make them stronger and ultimately more numerous. And it was just a disastrous failure, right?

• 45:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:28Robert Evans?

  The term auto genocide, which was coined by author Jean Lacout- Lacouture, something like that, Jean Lacouter, auto genocide was coined by this French author in order to separate the unique circumstances of mass killing in Cambodia from the Holocaust and other traditional genocides. I, again, there's some issues with that even because

• 45:52Robert Evans?

  Genocide is is not fully the right term for what Pol Pot and his peers are trying to do to the Khmer people, right? Because their goal is to ensure the survival of their race, right? You can come down on however you like on what we should call this, right?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:08Robert Evans?

  But I should note that while what the the most of the killing the regime does and most of who the regime kills are Khmer. While I don't know that it's right to say that like genocide is just strictly textually the right way to describe that. There are genocides that are being committed by the Khmer Rouge, like normal, like straight up dictionary genocides, right?

• 46:30Speaker 02

  I mean, I wonder if it's it just comes down to like it's sort of functionally the same type of murder. And I wonder if the argument is sort of like every genocide is actually politically motivated, like at least somewhat external to the stated aims of the genocide. So like,

• 46:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  What does it really matter?

• 46:49Robert Evans?

  That's absolutely the case. I think kind of the issue comes down to is like, well, they they weren't trying to wipe out the Khmer, right? Like they they just thought that wiping out these people, which wound up being a huge chunk of the Khmer, would strengthen things like, what do you call that? You know, to a degree, does it matter? It's certainly not to the dead. But I do want to make a point that there were just straight up normal genocides occurring too in this mass killing.

• 47:16Robert Evans?

  That paragraph I read a little earlier mentioned both the CHAM and the Vietnamese ethnic minorities in Cambodia being targeted. And I think all of these different kind of non Khmer people are like five to 10% maybe of the total number of dead. But when you look at these as populations, these different ethnic populations that are being targeted are are killed in a way that makes them some of the most total genocides I've ever studied. Roughly 50% of Chinese Cambodians, and these are not like necessarily, some of them are Chinese immigrants. But these are just, these are people who are ethnically Chinese and live in Cambodia, right? 50% of the pre-war population is executed or starved in a three-year period.

• 47:57Robert Evans?

  And they got off light compared to the ethnically Vietnamese Cambodians. I'm going to quote from that article again. In particular, the Khmer Rouge propaganda organs described the Vietnamese as toxic to democratic Kampuchea by stating that their goal is to swallow Cambodia's territory and force Cambodia into an Indo-Chinese federation under its control. Vietnamese were portrayed as quintessentially evil and lethal to the democratic Kampuchea. Radio broadcasts described the Vietnamese as living concealed among the population, infiltrating, sabotaging, and destroying the communist regime, therefore being toxic to the ideal. Further broadcasts spoke of the need to weed out and exterminate the enemy planted within the cooperatives, and reminded civilians, "You are not fighting only against Vietnamese soldiers, but the

• 48:42Robert Evans?

  whole of Vietnam, so spare nothing and no one." According to Pol Pot, the Vietnamese are "a black dragon that spits its poison." The overall death toll for Vietnamese Khmers was nearly 100% of the population.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 48:58Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean-

• 49:03Robert Evans?

  Like, this is about the most total genocide I've ever heard of the Vietnamese Khmer in particular.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Right, right. Yeah. I mean, that's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess I still, I'm just like, not still, but like, like, it is like-

• 49:19Robert Evans?

  It's hard to wrap your head around, yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  It's hard to wrap my head around, but also like, hard to like, be like, this can't be the, I mean, it just feels like the stated goal can't be the actual goal, I guess, but like, I don't, I don't know what I think the, the actual goal is anyway, but, you know what I mean? I'm just like, it, it has to just be sort of a vague notion of power, it feels like.

• 49:43Robert Evans?

  It's, it's-

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Like, what is killing your enemies like that for?

• 49:48Robert Evans?

  Well, because the people at the top giving the orders live these lives of the mind, where their whole ego is in, "I am, I am, I am intelligent, I understand how things really work, and I have this plan," right? And everything about their personality is wrapped up in that plan, so it has to work. And they simply can't accept, they can't even let themselves look at a reality that would, that would lead to that being questioned, but then their- Passing these orders down to people who number one, just the desperation of their life, the violence they've seen makes certain things just less abhorrent to them, but also there's room for them to advance. The more of these people they kill, the more stuff they get, the more they move up, the safer they are, the more food they get, right?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  It just creates fucked up incentives.

• 50:34Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 50:36Robert Evans?

  And the incentives come because of the fucked up beliefs of the leaders.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:40Robert Evans?

  And the desperation of the people doing a lot of the killing makes them respond better than any incentives, you know?

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 50:48Robert Evans?

  Which is, by the way, this is not every genocide. For example, I wouldn't talk about the members of the SS this way, because they're not.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:55Robert Evans?

  Right?

• 50:55Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 50:57Robert Evans?

  But this is what's happening in Cambodia. Speaking of what's happening in Cambodia, presumably someone in Cambodia is listening to this podcast.

• 51:07Robert Evans?

  And if so, hi.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  You didn't say, speaking of mass killing or anything like that, so this is one of the better ad, ad throws.

• 51:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Visit Cambodia, or not, I don't know. I haven't been. I hope, I hear it's nice.

• 51:26Robert Evans?

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• 52:25Robert Evans?

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• 53:36Robert Evans?

  And we're back. So the Cham were another non-Kammer ethnic group that was targeted by the regime. And to make matters worse, the Chams are Muslim, right? And Pol Pot considered Islam to be inherently reactionary, right? A fundamental enemy of communism. The large part of the reason why is that Muslims pray five times a day, right? And Pol Pot describes this as them shirking their responsibility to work, right? This is an individualist thing, and it's also stopping you from participating in the national project as much as everyone else, right? The Chams are just thus a drain on the ideal communist state that he wanted to form. So Pol Pot sent his men to wipe out every Cham village they could find,

• 54:17Robert Evans?

  and roughly 50% of Cham Cambodians had been killed by the late 1979. Now, what's interesting to me is that he also targets the Buddhists, or at least the Buddhist clergy. And this is kind of weird, because he had a really good time at the monastery. He described it his whole life as a positive experience. But as leader of Democratic Kampuchea, he describes Buddhist monks as, quote, "parasites who eat the rice of the people." Monks are ordered to carry out hard labor, and the vast majority of monks who had existed pre-war are killed by the Khmer Rouge. Williams and Nielsen cite an internal Rouge document that brags a 90% to 95% success rate in wiping out the Buddhist monk population.

• 55:00Robert Evans?

  So again, almost totally takes out the Buddhist clergy within like the Theravada Buddhist clergy within Cambodia.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. It just feels like it's also like, does this sort of thing? Snowball like once you get started with the mass killing, then you're like, well, who else can we throw on the list?

• 55:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Once you pop, the fun don't stop.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 55:21Robert Evans?

  Popping here is putting people in mass graves.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:26Robert Evans?

  Now, and this is again, why it's so important to start it, to stop it from starting. Now, again, 90% or so of the people killed by the Khmer Rouge are Khmer. And most die as a result of these kind of insane agricultural and land reform policies, the mass depopulation, all the starvation and stuff that goes along with it. But as time goes on, an increasing number of people are being tortured and killed by the regime. And past the initial point where they're like punishing the capitalists and the members of Law Noles government, most of the people being tortured and killed directly are like former party members and like communists and stuff. Right? A lot of them are people who had been part of Pol Pot's old reading circle back in Paris. Right?

• 56:08Robert Evans?

  They are wiping out, you know, every revolution devours its young, but they are doing that in like famous time here. For an idea of how deadly it was to have agreed with Pol Pot back when he was Saloth Sar, or even during the victory of the Khmer Rouge over the Law Noles government, of the original 22 members of the Central Committee for the Democratic Kampuchia Party, which is who officially governed after the end of the war, six lasted to the end of the regime without being killed or tortured. And the vast majority of them, those were killed. The very few people who survived owed their lives to their sworn enemies, the Vietnamese Army, who eventually liberated Tuol Slang, which was the prison for specifically, like after a point,

• 56:52Robert Evans?

  it's specifically the prison for like party members who were disloyal. To eliminate confusion, Tuol Slang is more commonly known as Security Prison 21 or S21. Right? And this is in terms of its like level of fame to people who read about this Tuol Slang or S21 is the Auschwitz of Cambodia.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  Right. Right, right.

• 57:15Robert Evans?

  Not, it's not on that scale. It's not that big a camp, but its death toll is.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Is, is that like, sort of, I mean, I know it's like, as you just said, like, you know, every revolution devours its young, but that still feels like a high percentage of like,

• 57:34Robert Evans?

  yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  OGs.

• 57:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Like getting got.

• 57:38Robert Evans?

  I think part of it's just because none of this is working and someone has to pay. And part of it is, again, just because, once you start killing like this.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:48Robert Evans?

  You keep, you can't stop, right? In part because stopping, then you have to deal with the fact that nothing worked, that everything was a failure, that your whole life and all of your beliefs are wrong, and no one at the top can take so, we, there must be someone, there must be a traitor, there must be somebody fucking, yeah, fucking with us, right?

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Is that like, unique-ish to Pol Pot? As far as like, yeah, right. It's just how it goes, of course.

• 58:11Robert Evans?

  Well, it's how it goes sometimes, because like, the Nazis don't really, like, the Nazis target other Nazis, you know, there's the Night of Long Knives, but that was more of like, a centralizing even more power and dealing with like, a chunk of the movement that didn't really agree with Hitler anymore. Not every, this is pretty, it's not unique, but it's not common for it to be like this, right? Obviously, in the French Revolution, stuff like this happens, but the swiftness and the centrality with which loyal members of the party are targeted and tortured and executed is, like, noteworthy here.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  If you can't be one of the boys, then who can you be?

• 58:50Robert Evans?

  There's really no safety here, right?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:53Robert Evans?

  So it was between, one of, like, S21, this prison, that's kind of the most famous of the prisons here, was between, one of between 150 and a little less than 200 torture and execution centers, built on Pol Pot's orders by the Santa Ball, the secret police. Roughly 20,000 people were imprisoned in S21 over the course of the regime, there's some debate on this number, between 12 and 20,000. There's never more than about 1,000 to 1,500 people at a time, though. And S21 is built out of a former school, which is, I guess, extra chilling, given that Pol Pot was a schoolteacher. And when I say 1,000 to 1,500 at a time, 20,000 total, people aren't released alive

• 59:33Robert Evans?

  from S21. This is a death camp. And while it started by going after, again, like agents of the old regime, yada, yada, yada, its prime purpose for most of its history is purging members of the leadership caste, as well as like, members of the party alongside their entire families. If you are like, somebody, a mid-level guy in the Khmer Rouge who gets targeted and put in S21, your kids and your wife are going to, even if they're babies, right? They'll take your infant in there and kill them and torture them, right? And again, it's this like, well, we really have to make a statement, you know, the stakes are so high. We really have to scare people away from not being loyal members of the party. Now, we're not going to be dealing with S21 in as much length as we ought to,

• 1:00:18Robert Evans?

  or the prison system in general. This is because it really does deserve its own episodes. Our friend Joe Kasabian of the Lions Led by Donkeys podcast has covered it at length. I recommend his work. Given that I'm trying to focus this on Pol Pot, who was a major architect of this prison system, I hope you'll forgive my brevity, as I quote from a detailed fact sheet put together by the Documentation Center of Cambodia for the Cambodia Tribunal, quote, and this is talking about the people who were sent to S21. "They were accused of collaborating with foreign governments, spying for the CIA and the KGB, and hence betraying Ankara. Prisoners were also believed to have conspired with others and thus were forced to reveal their strings of traitors, which sometimes included over 100 names. The interrogators at S21 based their technique on a list of 10 security regulations, which

• 1:01:03Robert Evans?

  included, 'While getting lashes or electrification, you must not cry at all.' Although prisoners often had no idea why they had been arrested, interrogators forced them to confess their crimes. If they did not confess, they would be subjected to physical and psychological torture. However, after having confessed, they were marked for execution. Initially, prisoners were killed on the grounds of the prison, but as the volume and stench of the corpses rapidly increased and became unbearable, prisoners were then trucked en masse to an open field located 15 kilometers away, known as Crow's Feet Pond, to be killed. Waiting at the field was a group of about 10 young men led..." By Tang. Tang, in his early twenties, and his team of teenagers, lived in a two-story house that was built on the field in 1977. They were informed ahead of time of the number of prisoners that would arrive,

• 1:01:48Robert Evans?

  so that they could dig the graves in advance. The shocking figures commonly associated with the prison, 14,000 killed and seven survivors, ranked the prison as one of the most lethal in the 20th century.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 1:02:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  Oh, also, I mean, the detail, obviously, every atrocity has someone actually doing it, but like, just this dude's job.

• 1:02:12Robert Evans?

  Yep, yep. Every day, you get told how many corpses you gotta dig holes for, and you and your fellow teenagers get out of the house. I guess, early twenties. Yeah, and his team was teenagers.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just doing it every day. It's like, you know, it's so hard to fathom for me as a lazy person.

• 1:02:29Robert Evans?

  He's probably like, well, this is a pretty good job, given things. I'm probably not gonna get targeted. They're not gonna go after the gravedigger, right? They need me digging graves.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:38Robert Evans?

  Now, while S21 was operating, Pol Pot himself made regular statements and writings to Western supporters. And this is a key aspect of what's happening. While all this nightmare is unfolding in Cambodia, there's not a, there's not, there's stuff getting out, but not a lot of it, right? At least initially, you know, as time goes on, more does start to get out about how horrifying what's happening is. But the first stuff that gets out is propaganda from Pol Pot and the regime to Western supporters, where they're talking about the utopia that we're building. We are finally creating the communist, the agrarian peasant communist utopia that everyone's hoped would happen. We've made a totally equal society.

• 1:03:20Robert Evans?

  Here it is, in democratic Kampuchea. We've done it, right? And there were a not insignificant number of Western leftists who believed this bullshit, right? And who would argue that any evidence to the contrary is the evidence of how hideous what's happening, of the killing fields, as they're called, start to comes out, come out. There's a lot of folks who are like, well, that's just capitalist propaganda. That's the CIA, right? Nothing, nothing bad's happening in Cambodia, right? One of the organizations that Pol Pot spread his propaganda towards was the Belgian Kampuchea Society, who interviewed Pol Pot in 1978. He told them, "We don't have prisons, and we don't even use the word prison. Bad elements in our society are simply given productive tasks to do."

• 1:04:09Robert Evans?

  You know, dipshits buy this stuff, right? As they always do, as they do in the present day. By all accounts, the most famous of these dipshits was an English writer and professor named Malcolm Caldwell. Caldwell had been a significant figure on the British left in the 60s and 70s. He spends two years as the chair of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. He is an avid anti-Vietnam War protester, and in that regard, his actions were admirable because the Vietnam War deserved protesting. He wrote regularly for Peace News in support of different anti-colonial movements, and a number of them, he was very right to support. Caldwell is a figure who in some ways resembles a lot of modern genocide denier types on

• 1:04:52Robert Evans?

  the left, although I think he was a much better person, because again, he's not comprehensively that, and he's not being like, paid by anybody. This is a true believer who lacks a tremendous degree of judgment in a very key area.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, but also, like, you know, from his perspective, you kind of imagine, like, you're largely right. I mean, in this case, you're wrong about the CIA propaganda, but...

• 1:05:17Robert Evans?

  Up until Cambodia, you're largely right. Yeah, fucking US is doing hella war crimes and being supported by a lot of people in Vietnam and doing them. And, yeah.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  So like, you're like, yeah, it's like, you see the leg he has to stand on, even though he's wrong.

• 1:05:31Robert Evans?

  It is one of, it's very tempting, and there's a degree to which you should compare him to folks like people who write for the Gray Zone, which is a faux journalistic institution that spent years arguing Bashar al-Assad, never gassed its own people, made fun of anyone who was saying Russia was about to invade Ukraine, right? They're those motherfuckers. Caldwell, there's a degree to which you should compare him to them, but also, people who knew him said he was kind and empathetic, and he was, in a lot of cases, on the right side of things. And he gets into Cambodian politics for a sympathetic reason, which is that he's arguing against this nightmarish US bombing campaign, which is a war crime. And on the other side of this, by the way, I found a fucking Washington Post column looking, writing about this, in which the author was like, "Oh, it's, you know, what's

• 1:06:16Robert Evans?

  really fucked up is the..." People who who slandered the US for bombing Cambodia to try to stop the Khmer Rouge from coming into being. That's not why we fucking did it, you dipshit. Like, fuck you. For one thing, that's part of what made them possible. For the other thing, that we didn't give up, that was never the fucking goal. Like, fuck you, fuck you. I just, so many people I fucking hate. Um, I'm both like, yeah, anyway.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:42Robert Evans?

  Caldwell was loved by his students, and it was recalled even by people who disagreed with him as a gentle person who was tolerant of opposing views. So he was not the kind of guy who was like, maybe he would have been if he'd had Twitter, but like, was a guy who was willing to talk about his unhinged beliefs about Cambodia with you in a polite manner. So I don't want to depict him as a caricature, right? Now, because the Khmer Rouge beat the US-backed Law and Noel government, and because their claims of agrarian equality and an idealized socialist society gelled with Caldwell's own hope of where the world might go, he came to support them to the hilt. His friends, who at the same time saw him as a brilliant economist, also rued his startling naivete.

• 1:07:20Robert Evans?

  One peer said, quote, "He was a man with very clear theoretical and ideological views, and the empirical basis didn't seem to worry him hugely." Always a big warning sign. Well, my idea is about how shit should work, so why bother looking at what's happening?

• 1:07:37Robert Evans?

  Now Caldwell did visit a lot of the regimes that he extolled and supported. Uh, he took regime-sponsored tours of places like the USSR. And, you know, that's one of those things where it's like, you are going to miss a lot of the bad stuff the USSR is doing, but the Soviet Union is like a state that functions, right? And there's things it did that were good. Got it, got the first person into space. There were massive improvements in, you know, literacy and whatnot. In addition to horrifying and awful things done by others. It's an actual state, right? And so it's understandable that you could go there and see, take this sponsored tour and just see the good stuff, right? That's not really possible in Cambodia, because there's no good stuff, right?

• 1:08:22Robert Evans?

  There's, there's nothing positive happening under the Khmer Rouge.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, the silver lining is hard to. I mean, you truly have to be a blind believer to just go in there.

• 1:08:32Robert Evans?

  Right. Per The Guardian, quote, "Three days before Christmas in 1978, Malcolm Caldwell received an early present. On the final day of a two-week tour of Cambodia, he was told that he would meet with Pol Pot. This was indeed a rare privilege. Unlike most other communist leaders, Pol had not created a personality cult. There were no posters of him. He was seldom seen or quoted. Many Cambodians had not even heard of him. Only seven Westerners were ever invited to what had been renamed Democratic Cambodia, and Caldwell was the first and only Britain." So the fact that he's invited at all is this huge honor. So he comes and he shows up at this place where there are other journalists we'll talk about with him. There's people with him and they're all immediately like in Nam Penh being like, where are all the people? Because some of them had been prior

• 1:09:16Robert Evans?

  to the Khmer Rouge taking over and they're horrified. They're like, where are the fucking human beings? Right? Everyone's gone. Something's horribly wrong here. And Caldwell is just like so honored that like they didn't pick any other British people. Pol Pot wants to talk to me, just me, you know? So there are a few reasons why he was taken in and received so well. For one thing, he had been to China. He was on good terms with the Chinese Communist Government, and that was Cambodia's main ally at the time. He was also, Pol Pot was kind of in this period, this is after there had been a series of provoked border conflicts with Vietnam provoked by the Khmer Rouge, and it was becoming increasingly clear that

• 1:09:58Robert Evans?

  Vietnam was going to invade. And so Pol Pot was really trying to burnish his international support. So he suddenly wanted Westerners in, right? And he's like, well, this guy's probably like, blind enough to ignore all the horrible shit going on, right?

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  This guy will do.

• 1:10:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And Caldwell had just a few months before he came to Cambodia, written an article in The Guardian, in which he had basically said like, all these reports that the Khmer Rouge are killing people are nonsense. One of his main sources was the Kampuchean Information Minister, a guy named Hugh Nim, who blamed the deaths on America, right? Basically like the bombing that the, like all of these people that you're saying have died, this is due to the bombing campaign the US had executed, right? Now, by the time he shows up in Cambodia, this guy that his whole article denying the Khmer Rouge genocide is based on, Hugh Nim, has already been executed and tortured to death by Pol Pot. So, not a, not a great sign.

• 1:10:58Robert Evans?

  But even so, he was aware to an extent that the Khmer Rouge was killing people. And he had described them as, quote, "arch quislings who knew well what their fate would be were they to linger in Campuchia." So, well, I don't want to caricature this guy. You shouldn't pretend that like this dude was finding reasons to justify the killings that he knew about, right? Including the guy who was the source of his stupid article.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  It's so crazy.

• 1:11:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's nuts. Now, there are real journalists on this trip, and one of them, Elizabeth Becker, she had been to Cambodia before things, you know, the Khmer Rouge had taken over. And she was a very courageous and talented war correspondent, right? She was good at her job. And she argued with Caldwell constantly while they're talking. She's like, she's one of the people being like, "There's supposed to be people in this city." Like, "I've seen it before. Something's really bad here." And Caldwell's, you know, giving the same lies, putting out a bunch of nonsense about, like, you know, the, the, the bold reformation of society along these utopian lines and whatnot. But she still liked him, like, he was a very pleasant man. She called him kind and tolerant and just deeply naive.

• 1:12:09Robert Evans?

  Quote, "He didn't want to know about problems with the Khmer Rouge." And that carried over to not wanting to know about problems between Cambodia and Vietnam. He was stuck in 1968 or something. Now, there's a book out by this point, by the time that Caldwell comes to Cambodia, about the early stages of the Cambodian auto genocide, whatever you want to call it, called Year Zero. Caldwell could have read this book, and if he had, he'd have learned, for example, that one Khmer Rouge saying expressed the regime's goal as, quote, "to completely annihilate diseases of consciousness that got in the way of their goals." Doing this meant getting rid of hidden enemies who, as Pol Pot put it, "had sicknesses of revolutionary consciousness."

• 1:12:52Robert Evans?

  Now, Philip Short goes into more detail here, summarizing information that should have been available to Caldwell, how he had he done this reading. Quote, Satyarama meant an individual who failed to focus on the communist cause and was therein portrayed as toxic to its realization. Even without considerable evidence or proof, individuals could suddenly be classified as toxic to the super great leap forward and accused of being class enemies with a sickness of consciousness. Enemies were depicted as pervasive and infecting the pure Khmer ideal. The desire to exterminate enemies grew, as did the intoxication of doing so with impunity. Purging these contaminants was discussed as crucial to the survival of the regime. According to propaganda, enemies were likened to an impurity that threatened the well-being

• 1:13:37Robert Evans?

  of revolutionary society. These groups were portrayed as a lethal source of pollution that needed to be eliminated. A sort of madness had taken over the country at this point, particularly among the rouge cadres doing the hand-to-hand slaughtering. And for an idea of just how deranged this gets, several militia who were interviewed later claimed that they would eat the livers of their victims and the belief that it would give them extra power and probably because they are also starving to death.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Robert Evans?

  One of these, yeah. One of these guys is cited later as saying, "They ate human liver because they wanted to prevent themselves from being shocked by killing people. Then they could kill people. They wanted to change themselves to be able to kill people without pity."

• 1:14:18Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 1:14:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Speaker 02

  I mean, there's probably some level of like just prion disease that can take over. Like, there's gotta be someone who-

• 1:14:29Robert Evans?

  You're okay with livers. You're okay with livers.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. I mean, just-

• 1:14:34Robert Evans?

  You're good.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  If you're trying to like, like, lose, lose your conscience-

• 1:14:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  Probably giving yourself a brain disease is not the worst way to do it.

• 1:14:40Robert Evans?

  You're generally safe. If you want to eat human beings safely, like a liver, the liver is like a reasonably okay spot to go for. Robert, Robert. Sophie, I don't want people to get fucking prion diseases. Don't go-

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  No spine, no bone marrow, no brain.

• 1:14:56Robert Evans?

  No spine, no bone marrow, no brain, right? You know?

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  We all know this.

• 1:15:00Robert Evans?

  Folks, I, Sophie, a lot of people, what, I'm a believer in harm reduction, okay? You know?

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:15:08Robert Evans?

  Test your fentanyl, don't eat people's spines. Or test your drugs for fentanyl, don't eat people's spines. Don't test your fentanyl, don't do fentanyl. Okay. Caldwell could have had access to a lot of this information and he rejected it largely on the basis that Year Zero had been pilloried by a critique published by Noam Chomsky. Now, this is contentious, people, oh, boy, the arguing about whether or not Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge or was just like, given the information available at the time, it's hard to tell what is true. I'm not gonna, this is not going to be a lengthy dissection of that. But there were arguments that that he would deny a number of the crimes being committed by the Khmer Rouge.

• 1:15:51Robert Evans?

  He certainly argued that Ponschard, the author of Year Zero, had exaggerated the horror of what was occurring on the ground. Chomsky described it as what people were saying about the Khmer Rouge as, quote, "an unprecedented propaganda campaign to slander Democratic campuchia via systematic distortion of the truth." Right? Now, Chomsky preferred a different book. He compared Ponschard's work unfavorably with another book called Cambodia, Starvation and Revolution, written by George Hildebrand and Gareth Porter, which is basically is taking Khmer Rouge propaganda and like being like, hey, everything's great over there, actually, and like what the stuff that's bad is not their fault, right?

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:16:33Robert Evans?

  There was another book written by two Reader's Digest writers called Murder of a Gentle Land that Chomsky also went after, which, you know, it was not perfect. None of the claims about what, none of the, none of the critiques and the people talking about the auto genocide are perfectly accurate because it's still going on, right? But they are broadly accurate and and Chomsky is certainly in the wrong about what books about Cambodia to trust during this period.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Right. But but also, if we hadn't, you know, we, the United States and the West, hadn't put out so much lying CIA propaganda, like this would, it wouldn't be, it would be less possible for.

• 1:17:14Robert Evans?

  For this, for this disinformation. To have spread.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Work. Yeah.

• 1:17:18Robert Evans?

  And and this is also why I have a I have a degree more of sympathy to Caldwell and to other people who doubted this in this period of time because it was a so such a different information environment.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Robert Evans?

  And there had been, there was just so much disinformation that had been put out about Vietnam. They'd been put out about what the US was doing in Cambodia. They didn't put it about what the US was doing in parts of Latin America. So again, these people are wrong and that should be stated. But it's I I I do have less condemnation than I do about like the stuff going on in the 21st century than

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:17:53Robert Evans?

  This, right?

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, there wasn't, there wasn't Twitter and there wasn't like, yeah, they, you know, it's just, it's more reasonable to be skeptical.

• 1:18:03Robert Evans?

  Yes, and there's certainly, it's certainly reasonable to initially be skeptical. Now, again, by the point time Caldwell was on the ground and these other people with him are like, this city used to have people. It's no longer like you should have known, right?

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:17Robert Evans?

  So it's generally considered or argued at least that Chomsky is a big part of why Caldwell doesn't like trust, you know, Punchard's book about the atrocities going on in Cambodia. You know, whatever the truth, whoever you're going to blame for it, Caldwell at age 47 shows up in Cambodia as a pretty much a true believer, right? And in fact, he had finished a book before he goes there called Campuchia, A Rationale for Rural Policy, in which he had written that the Khmer Rouge had, quote, opened vistas of hope, not only for the people of Cambodia, but also for the people of other peoples of all other poor third world countries.

• 1:18:58Robert Evans?

  We'll come back to that book in a second.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Robert Evans?

  So Caldwell, along with these journalists, is escorted around the country. They see some like staged scenes and again Becker is gets aggressive, very brave woman with these Khmer Rouge guards being like, I can, I can see what you're not showing us, like where you're blocking us from going. I can see evidence of clear problems because I've been here before. What the, and she's like arguing with them. She said later, it was so clearly awful. One of the problems was the absence of what I saw, the absence of people. And that's a different kind of proof to, I don't see any people being executed. Caldwell was not concerned. Quote, "He preferred to stay in the car and laugh at the clumsy photo opportunities prepared for us," Becker wrote in her book on Cambodia.

• 1:19:44Robert Evans?

  Now, at the very end of the tour, they all go back to Nampen and they, you know, they're hanging out for a little bit. They're not all that far from the S21 Center, right? This is where Caldwell's going to finally have his interview with Pol Pot. And I'm going to quote from The Guardian again. Caldwell remained ignorant on the Friday morning in Nampen that he was taken in a Mercedes limousine to see Pol Pot. The setting for the meeting was the former governor's palace on the waterfront, built during the French colonial period. In a grand reception room, replete with fans and billowing white curtains, the two men sat down and discussed revolutionary economic theory. Becker had met Pol Pot earlier the same day, and in When the War Was Over, that's her book, she writes, "He was actually elegant, with a pleasing face, not handsome, but attractive.

• 1:20:28Robert Evans?

  His features were delicate and alert, and his smile nearly endearing. The perennially shabby academic and the fastidious dictator must have made for an odd couple. In any case, Caldwell left the meeting a happy man. He returned to the guesthouse he was sharing with Becker and Dudman, full of praise for Pol Pot and his political outlook. We went over stuff, says Becker. He thought he had a good conversation. He had avoided at all costs any discussion of Vietnam, and he was looking forward to going home." So that night, they have another argument, you know, Becker and Caldwell about Cambodia. You know, they have dinner and they go to bed. And as far as she can tell, he remained completely convinced that the revolution was a good thing and that Cambodia was headed in a good direction. She goes to bed at around 11:00 PM and in the middle of the night, she is woken up by

• 1:21:13Robert Evans?

  what she eventually realizes is gunfire. And she comes out of her room, she sees a young man pointing a handgun at her. He's wearing, he's got bands of ammunition on his body, he's got a rifle on his back. She flees back into her room and locks herself in the bathroom. And eventually, when they come out, when this ends, Dudman, the other guy there, sees like a bunch of guys running along the street and they find Caldwell in his room and he's been shot repeatedly. He's dead, right? It's still to this day, not perfectly clear. Yeah. Definitely, it was, I mean, it's generally... Pretty clear Pol Pot ordered it. We don't really know why.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:21:55Robert Evans?

  What about this guy triggered him? Why specifically it happened? They, the Khmer Rouge doesn't admit to it, but yeah, uh, this guy gets killed. And it, it's just kind of, it's one of these very famous moments because he's such, he's one of these like guys who had really been willing to go to bat for Democratic campuchia. And then finds himself yet another corpse in the killing field, so to speak.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. I mean, you know, the other side is like, we're also living through a moment where like, everyone will cozy up to the dictator who demonstrably will stab you in the back at any given opportunity and they still line up.

• 1:22:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:22:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people, people are really like Caldwell, above all else is a, a reminder of how easy it is to blind yourself to obvious reality, even at your own peril, because, because seeing the reality is not even that you don't want to see it. It's that seeing the reality would mean taking a hit to your ego. It's the same thing why you've got, there's a lot of people being like, oh, well, once these tariffs start to hit, once the economy collapses, all of these Trump supporters will realize.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Robert Evans?

  You know, they'll see the light. And like a significant chunk of Trump's voters who are not hardcore supporters, who are the people who voted for Biden in 20, you know, who go back and forth or who like made their decision day of, sure, they'll change their mind. They'll get angry. But the heart and core of his supporters, recognizing that they've been fucked means recognizing they're not as smart as they think they are.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:26Robert Evans?

  And again, Caldwell, that's, that's a big part of it for him. He's a scholar. He's a smart man. He couldn't be this wrong.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:32Robert Evans?

  Mm hmm. So.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, they could, and those people are also the ones doing the worst stuff when the time comes to do the worst stuff, unfortunately.

• 1:23:43Robert Evans?

  Yes. Yes. Because again, they've, they've bought in. Now, while all this is going on, the end of the regime is getting nearer and nearer because Pol Pot's also not as smart as he thinks he is.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:55Robert Evans?

  He had directed his forces in what began as a series of border skirmishes against the newly unified Vietnamese state. Was a sensible decision based on their obsessive hatred and paranoia of Vietnam. But given the comparative state of the militaries of the two countries, it was basically suicidal. And in short order, this is what brings an end to democratic Campuchia. Vietnam invades Cambodia in December of 1978 and what follows was not close to a fair fight. By January, they had taken the capital and put an end to Pol Pot's reign. Sort of. So he has to flee, right? He has to like leave Nam Pen and Vietnam takes over and administers, you know, for a while.

• 1:24:38Robert Evans?

  Cambodia and eventually Cambodia becomes independent again under a government that is not the Khmer Rouge. But the Khmer Rouge doesn't go away and Pol Pot remains the head of of the Khmer Rouge. As they like go and hide in the jungle, they've got like some villages and stuff. This like little weird fortified section of the country, tiny section of the country. That they're able to like manage along, I think it's like the Thai border there. And in fact, this like government, because like in 82, China and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations kind of pressures the Khmer Rouge to ally with Prince Sahan's forces and some like Republican forces

• 1:25:20Robert Evans?

  led by a guy called Son San along the Thai border and create this thing called the Coalition Government of Democratic Campuchia. And that remains in the UN, the legitimate government of Cambodia until 1991. Even though like they're not actually in power, the government in power is like the PRK, but they're only recognized by Vietnam, Laos and the Soviet Union. And so that's kind of like Pol Pot's where he is for the 80s, you know, into the 90s. There is a lot of guerrilla warfare. Pol Pot continues to lead the Khmer Rouge to fight against the Vietnamese backed government of Cambodia. And this continues massively, the suffering of the Cambodian people

• 1:26:03Robert Evans?

  who do never get nearly enough international aid. And this situation doesn't really start to end until the Paris Peace Agreement is signed in October. Of 1991, the Vietnamese withdraw from Cambodia and things slowly start to calm down. There's a UN peacekeeping force that kind of enters in 1993 and there's like a free and fair election. You know, that, that, yeah, things start to get better at this point. The Khmer Rouge never disarms, right? They continue to hold their tiny little chunk of the country and argue that there's Vietnam is still secretly running things. There's camouflaged Vietnam Vietnamese soldiers, you know, that are behind the regime, right?

• 1:26:45Robert Evans?

  They boycott the 1993 election and they basically hole up in western and northern little bits of Cambodia. They're outlawed in 1994 and when the Cold War ends, they, they don't really have any of the even minimal support that they had previously had. At long, long length, Yang Seri, who's the foreign minister, who is again, one of, one of Pol Pot's friends from Paris, as well as a number of other high ranking officials surrender, along with the bulk of what had remained of the military of the Khmer Rouge. And they are eventually incorporated into the Royal Cambodian Armed Forces.

• 1:27:22Robert Evans?

  Pol Pot though stays free for quite a while until he is, basically there's this shit that goes down in 1998. I think it is where one of his few remaining friends running the Khmer Rouge, this guy Son Sen, does something that Pol Pot considers treason and so he massacres Son Sen along with 14 of his family members, including his like grandkids. Now, Pol Pot would argue, for the other people, the babies, the young ones, I did not order them to be killed. For Son Sen and his family, yes, I feel sorry about that. That was a mistake that occurred when we put our plan into practice. I feel sorry.

• 1:28:04Robert Evans?

  This is when he's questioned by a journalist Nate, named Nate Thayer, who does like his last interview. And this is kind of what brings an end to him leading the Khmer Rouge finally after 37 years. Because for whatever reason, this is a step too far to the last people who had stuck around him. And one of his. Like his commander in chief, a guy named Tom Mach, puts him on house arrest. Right. And yeah, and that's kind of the end of Pol Pot of having even a sliver of power. Um, eventually Pol Pot is brought before a people's tribunal. He's sentenced to life imprisonment uh for Sanson's murder. Um, but he, he never really faces any actual like justice, right? Like there's, there's, there's nothing like.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  Right. There's no way you could pay for this anyway, but he doesn't even.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Not even close.

• 1:28:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, he dies under house arrest in 1998 and uh. That's the story.

• 1:29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's one of those like, like whatever, whatever belief you may have in some sort of cosmic justice. This will, this should tip the scales in the other direction.

• 1:29:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like he is ultimately not punished by the new Cambodian state or the U. N. He's punished by the Khmer Rouge for killing another Khmer Rouge guy. Um, in his very last interview after he has been arrested. Um, again, there's this guy Nate Sayer who comes in and does this like final interview with Pol Pot. He and Nate is a very, does a very good job of this. Like he, he really presses Pol Pot on the stuff that he did on all of the killings. And this is, I want to read this quote from one of Nate's last articles with Pol Pot, where he's trying to like get him to acknowledge anything about what he did. I came to carry out the struggle, not to kill people, he rasps, his voice almost a whisper.

• 1:29:53Robert Evans?

  He pauses, fixing to his interviewer with an almost pleading expression. Even now, and you can look at me, am I a savage person? My conscience is clear. I do not reject responsibility. Our movement made mistakes like every other movement in the world. But there was another aspect that was outside our control. The enemy's activities against us. I want to tell you, I'm quite satisfied with one thing. If we had not carried out our struggle, Cambodia would have become another Campuchia crumb in 1975, he says, referring to the Mekong Delta region seized by Vietnam from the Khmer Empire in the 17th century. And that I think says a lot that the end of this guy's life, two million deaths, maybe on his, on his conscience,

• 1:30:35Robert Evans?

  the absolute destruction of his country in such a way that it still has not recovered. And he's like, well, look, if I hadn't have done that, it could have wound up like this time. Vietnam took the Mekong Delta region from us in, in the 1600s, you know? You wouldn't want that, would you? Like he's still, he's such like, it's this, this fucking academic brain shit where like all that matters to him is these, this idea he's cooked up about how the world ought to work when he was like a young student with his friends, that he never gets over his ego, won't let him, no matter how many fucking people it leads him to kill.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  It's like such a, like, holding on to that delusion till the end is so amazing. I mean, I just, you know, I, I, it's so hard for me to understand that brain.

• 1:31:20Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  Like, like rationalizing to that degree, like.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  I don't know. Or just you gotta put on a show all the way to your last interview, you know? Keep the, keep the kayfabe up.

• 1:31:32Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Fucking grim.

• 1:31:35Robert Evans?

  Anyway.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  It's plug time.

• 1:31:39Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Just, my plug is just go, go, go sit by yourself for a second and just think about, you know, the world and what you can do to help someone.

• 1:31:52Robert Evans?

  And don't, don't take the books you read when you were fucking 22 seriously.

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  I mean, look, we're, we're living through the same version of that, but just the book is fucking Atlas Shrugged.

• 1:32:06Robert Evans?

  Exactly. That, that's, that is like why I bring this up in the context of like Doge and all of these young people who have like fucking reading goddamn Curtis Yarvin and shit on the internet and convince themselves the shit they read when they're young and like talk with their friends about obsessively in these Discord chats and Signal loops. And, you know, there are the people who are willing to make Pol Pot style decisions and no number of deaths, how many, no, how many? Tens of millions of fucking people die if they get the chance. It won't, they will not for a second doubt themselves or change their minds. And that's why literally anything that can be done to stop the process that is attempting to be underway is like justified because these people are going, they.

• 1:32:49Robert Evans?

  They they have to be edged out, right? And I I'm I'm optimistic at least about the fact that Musk, who's one of these people who has the same kind of pull pot brain damage, seems to have seems to be pulling back because of how angry he's made. He's just not built for criticism, right?

• 1:33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:07Robert Evans?

  But there's more of these guys and these guys.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  He's delusional, but he's too thin skinned and thankfully largely incompetent. Although incompetence has never stopped so many of these folks in the past, so.

• 1:33:18Robert Evans?

  No, it hasn't.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  No, they just fail upwards.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  Cold comfort. Cold comfort. But yeah, maybe that's at least a weakness to exploit.

• 1:33:26Robert Evans?

  Anyway, I don't know. Hard to know when it's good to read books or not.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, no. This is this is the lesson for these three episodes. Don't read books, kids. Listen to podcasts, not the podcast. No, not that podcast either.

• 1:33:43Robert Evans?

  Podcasts have never led anyone to support horrible things that get people killed. Just like, don't ever believe your own bullshit or anyone else's too strong. Keep an eye out for what's going on in the world and talk to people. Goodbye.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Goodbye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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