Part One: The Phil Spector Episodes

Robert sits down with his old pal and Grammy-award audio engineer Greazy Will to discuss one of the music industry's greatest bastards: Phil Spector. (4 Part Series) Cool Zone Media is nominated for 3 Webby Awards🎉🎉🎉 Submit your votes by April 16th Behind the Bastards - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/features/experimental-innovation It Could Happen Here - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/news-politics Migrating to America - https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/limited-series-specials/documentary See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, ladies, gentlemen, gentlebems, and all points in between. This is a podcast about the very worst people in all of history. And normally, it's a podcast where I, the host, Robert Evans, read a story about the very worst people in all of history to a guest who generally comes in cold, not always, yada, yada. We've been doing this eight years. You know, you know the drill, folks.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  You've figured it out by now. Even I know the drill by now.

• 0:34Robert Evans?

  And regular listeners will recognize the voice of my dear friend, Greasy Will, the Grammy Award-winning Greasy Will.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  Hey, buddy.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  What's up? How's it going? I'm very excited to be here.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  I know.

• 0:49Robert Evans?

  So excited to have you.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Because today, we are going to flip the roles here.

• 0:54Robert Evans?

  That's right. That's right, baby.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  And I'm gonna tell you about, about somebody who's very near and dear to my heart, a bastard of the music industry, and I'm very excited about this.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I have a question first.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah?

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, Greasy Will, who I love, my buddy. Do you know where this is being streamed right now?

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Oh, are we on Netflix?

• 1:17Speaker 02

  We're on Netflix. Yeah, our good buddy Greasy Will here, the second we announced that we were gonna be streaming video episodes on Netflix, commented, "Sellout." So what does that make you? That's what I have to say.

• 1:31Robert Evans?

  My friend of 15 years.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Look, when I was a kid, being a sellout was an insult. But now, as an adult, the world that we're in, being a sellout just means you're successful, you know? Like, it's exciting for me, yeah.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Just means you get to buy the good produce.

• 1:45Robert Evans?

  Are there other ways I made money in the past that I might have preferred more? Are there different ways to, you know? This is the, this is the future we've been given. Look.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Look, you're talking to a guy who, all right, so I have a course, a recording course that I made. And recently, I posted this ad that I had made with a high-quality camera, like the one you're viewing me on right now, if you are in fact viewing me. I have a high-quality camera, and all the comments were people like, "Greasy in high-def is weird. I don't like it."

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Welcome to our lives. Welcome to our lives.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Like, I do not do high quality in, in anything I do. In music, in, in anything.

• 2:25Robert Evans?

  It's perfect, Will, because I, I, I reached the, the peak of my, like, success as a professional in an audio medium. And you also reached the peak of your success as a professional in an audio medium.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:38Robert Evans?

  And the powers that be in their wisdom decided, "We gotta put these guys on TV."

• 2:45Robert Evans?

  People need to see their faces for some reason. I don't know. When we moved to Netflix, a surprising number of people were, just based on confusion, or based on the fact that it changed from YouTube, were like, "I, I didn't realize that many people were, were watching the, the podcast."

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 3:03Robert Evans?

  We have, we've been working on it. We have gotten it to where audio episodes of the show are back on YouTube Music. So if you listen to the show that way, I know there was, there was confusion, things got disrupted there for a while, but from now on, that should be normal. And initially, a lot of our international viewers were cut out because it was Netflix wasn't letting, it wasn't, our show wasn't available internationally.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Dim region-specific broadcasts?

• 3:29Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now our show is available on most of the places that Netflix serves.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Worldwide, baby. Minus Vietnam and Korea, for reasons I don't know.

• 3:39Robert Evans?

  So the Aussies out there, you can, you can watch now if you've got Netflix. I, I don't know. Again, 90% of the audience listens because it's a fucking podcast. So hopefully, none of, none of this should be changing for most of you.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:54Robert Evans?

  Who are we hearing about today, Will? Who, what, what piece of shit are you gonna tell me about? I know, but...

• 3:59Speaker 01

  All right, so, let me ask you this, let me ask you this first. If you had a Mount Rushmore of horrible music people, right? Like, whoever you could think of, who, who's, who's your George Washington?

• 4:11Robert Evans?

  It's gotta be Michael Jackson, cuz Michael's the perfect mix of that man's music. You simply can't cut his music out of popular culture and have it make sense. There's too big a gap, like his, he made, the impact he made is there and a bunch of his music is immortal, and also definitely raped a bunch of kids, ton of kids. That's like my peak bastard, maybe.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:33Speaker 02

  I can give, I can give my four.

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, go ahead, Sophie.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  My four, Michael Jackson, R. Kelly, P. Diddy, and the subject of this episode.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  That's, alright, so I'm gonna tell y'all, I don't think the subject of my episode makes it on, on the bastards, uh, Mount Rushmore, of musicians, right? And here's, and here's why, here's why. Because you, you wanna hear, cuz number one is Ian Watkins. Do you guys know who Ian Watkins is?

• 5:02Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:03Robert Evans?

  No.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Ian Watkins was recently, just, actually, I was gonna bring this up even before, but Ian Watkins was recently murdered in prison because they don't like those, those types of people who do those things to infants.

• 5:16Robert Evans?

  Oh, oh, oh.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  He was the singer of Lost. Yeah, he was the singer of Lost prophets, and, uh, it's interesting that you brought this up.

• 5:25Robert Evans?

  I've heard of this guy, yes.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  So it was interesting that you brought it, because I do have a question, and my overall thesis in discussing this person is when is it bad enough to cut somebody out and when does their music overshadow the big, the big picture, right? Because we so often in the music industry, uh, we, we will give people weird passes. Weird people get weird passes just because they're good at something, you know? They're good at making noise. That's kind of ridiculous to me. I do not, I do not think that makes a lot of sense, but.

• 5:56Robert Evans?

  People really love your noises, so you're allowed to molest 15-year-olds.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 6:01Robert Evans?

  Or younger.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Uh, so our subject today is somebody who I think is horrible, and you will hear a lot of evidence to, uh, to.

• 6:10Robert Evans?

  To that effect.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Back that up, yes, but, um, but our subject today is Phil Spector. Phil Spector, do you know about, do you know about Phil Spector at all? Like, what do you know, Robert, of Phil Spector?

• 6:21Robert Evans?

  Well, here's, here's how much I know about Phil Spector. In order to even listen to this podcast, I had to make, make sure I had a gun on me. Like.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Christ, Robert.

• 6:30Robert Evans?

  Cuz I know Phil's bringing one.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, Phil is definitely bringing a gun to the party, for sure.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  All right.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  This will be our episode today. We're, we're, we're gonna talk about Phil Spector. Boom, cold open, done. We did it.

• 6:45Robert Evans?

  We're done, we're open coldly.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Wow, look at you. Prettiest girl at the party, I love it.

• 6:54Speaker 03

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• 6:58Speaker 04

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• 7:28Robert Evans?

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• 8:04Speaker 01

  All right. Are you guys ready to hear about Phil Spector?

• 8:08Robert Evans?

  Unfortunately. I was born ready. Well, actually, I was born bloody with a cord wrapped around my neck, but also ready.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Were, were you, were you in fact a cord baby?

• 8:19Robert Evans?

  Nah.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  That explains a lot, I think.

• 8:21Robert Evans?

  I don't remember. My mom was in labor for like 70 hours. Something was wrong with me.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  My god.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  I think I was.

• 8:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, she had a chip on her shoulder about that.

• 8:32Robert Evans?

  It might have just been 48 hours. It was, it was like a long time.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  And, and, and, and in perfect comparison of our, our relationship, my mom was in labor with me for less than an hour.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I think my mom had me inside of the back of a pickup truck.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Like a camper, maybe?

• 8:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, you are one of my friends most likely to be born inside of a pickup truck.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:57Robert Evans?

  I say it's an honor.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  So first off, I want to say, uh, this is why I picked Phil Spector. And because I am personally a very big fan of his work. It is, it has informed a lot of my work as a musician, as a producer, as an engineer. I, I love Phil Spector's work. To me, it was, um, it was so groundbreaking for the time for many reasons. And there's a lot of like, uh, uh, future of music that came from where he was at, you know? And, uh, I like to do that game of like, oh, well, I like the Beatles. And the Beatles were really influenced by like what Brian Wilson and the Beach Boys were doing. And Brian Wilson loved Phil Spector, right? And so it's like, if you are a Beatles fan, you not only have heard Phil Spector's work,

• 9:43Speaker 01

  you've also, uh, you've, you've, you've also like been influenced by him indirectly through them loving, you know, the, the, the, the chain of command that it were, right?

• 9:56Robert Evans?

  Or chain of custody. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So Harvey Philip Spector, his name was not Phil, originally Harvey, Harvey was his name. Harvey Philip Spector was born on December 26, 1939 in the Bronx, New York. That's at least what the birth records say. His mom claimed that he was born on Christmas Day because she honestly and truly, I think maybe believed that he was the second coming of Christ. That was actually like, she was.

• 10:25Robert Evans?

  Good start.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  Cool. Really, really like into, so.

• 10:31Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  He, he had an older sister, surely, and an older brother who died just days after being born, who was born just before him, which is a bit why he got the ultimate Jewish mother protection system going on over him for his whole childhood.

• 10:47Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah. So he is, he is wrapped up, there's a wall between him and the real world.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Uh, there are. Unconfirmed theories regarding Specter's extended family structure. Some biographical account suggests his parents may have been closely related. Possibly even first cousins, though this has never been definitively proven. But he said it all the time. He would tell people this. He'd be like, "My parents were cousins." It was like, "All right." Like, I guess randomly at like lunch on a Tuesday or something, he's bringing this stuff up. Cool story, Brian.

• 11:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. What is well documented is that both sides of his family were Jewish immigrants whose families fled. Let's take a break real quick. Robert, you want to play guess the country his Jewish relatives had to escape in the late 1800s to early 1900s?

• 11:38Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna go with Poland?

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Oh, so close. Very close, very close. Probably, we don't know exactly, but probably Belarus or...

• 11:48Robert Evans?

  Oh, Belarus, yeah.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or Ukraine too. Ukraine too is possible. So, you're in the right, the right area.

• 11:55Robert Evans?

  A lot of people who are like, "I don't know exactly what country they were in." And part because it was several countries over the period of time they lived there.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  That's literally the description that's most often given is Eastern Europe. They fled Eastern Europe.

• 12:10Robert Evans?

  They lived under three or four governments, yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this is a very classic early 1900s American tale of, you know, Jewish immigrant families leaving their country because of the anti-Semitic pogroms going on, and then coming to America, settling in New York in a very Jewish neighborhood, or being surrounded by other Jews who had escaped these same situations. So, obviously, some generational trauma going on for sure to start off, and also family trauma, and also some questionable things going on with his mother already, you know, as far as her mental stability is. So, as a child, Specter was described as overweight and physically fragile.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  He struggled with recurring health problems and was often encouraged to stay indoors rather than participate in sports or outdoor activities. He developed a strong... Dislike for beaches, athletics and physical competition and any environment where he felt exposed and inadequate. Over time, his body changed. Yeah, yeah. He hates beaches.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, he hates beaches. That's my favorite tidbit of that whole thing. He's like, yeah, you know what I hate? I hate beach. You are not Ken Phil Spector. Your job is not beach. Okay?

• 13:29Speaker 01

  No, no joke, like multiple times throughout any of the biographies that you read about him. It's brought up that he doesn't like beaches, specifically beaches. He's like, oh, yeah, Phil wouldn't go to Venice because there was a beach close by. Like, he was like mad about it.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  All right, bro.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  As he entered adolescence, he lost weight dramatically and he became notably small and slight in stature. Instead of solving his insecurities, this transformation reinforced them. He remained physically unimposing, ill-suited for sports and deeply self-conscious about his appearance and masculinity. As an adult, he would always joke that like when they were picking sports teams that he was, he wanted to be the manager. I'm the manager of the team today, you know, like right from, because he's like, I'm not gonna, I don't know. Play sports is ridiculous.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  What a weird little guy.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  When Phil was nine years old, his father Benjamin Spector died by suicide.

• 14:21Robert Evans?

  Ooh.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are gonna have some classic bastard style empathy to start off our, our show today.

• 14:30Robert Evans?

  That's tough. That's tough. He's having a difficult start of things.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yes, he's had it, he's had it rough.

• 14:35Robert Evans?

  I'm sure this won't make him a monster.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Spoiler alert.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  His dad killed himself. So basically the story is his dad left, left the factory. He was like a, a metal worker and he left the factory and started driving home and just parked a couple of blocks away, put a hose in his tailpipe and started sucking on some carbon monoxide fumes in his, uh, in his car.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  And they don't know, they don't really even know why he did it. Like he had financial stress, but you know.

• 15:07Robert Evans?

  Decided he was done. Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was the right time for that to be a normal thing, you know?

• 15:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Financial stress, business failures, depression, they've all been cited, possible mental illness as well. Like there seems to be a very strong prevalence of that in Phil's life. Um, whatever the cause, the event shattered the whole family, right?

• 15:28Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  So Bertha Spector becomes the central force in Phil's life, tightening her grip on her son's emotional and developmental trajectory. Alongside her was Phil's older sister Shirley, who would exhibit as much control of his issues over Phil as his mother did. Both of them would emotionally abuse Phil often. His mother would often disparage his father and blame young Phil for his death. So she's like over there.

• 15:51Robert Evans?

  Great.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Like, your dad killed himself because of you. Before you, he was happy, and then you came along and then he killed himself.

• 15:58Robert Evans?

  And that's the best thing for kids, right? Giving them that sense of agency and control. No, you killed your dad, and you can do anything you put your mind to, including kill your parents, which you already did, right?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, very impressive, bro. I couldn't kill my parents.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Alright, so um, she treated his father's death as a source of family shame as well, too. So it was like, she never told the truth about it to anybody. Like, if she met somebody and they're like, oh, he's off in Europe on business, or he died in the war, like, she's always like, just making up other things and not saying, oh, yeah, he, you know, killed himself or whatever. Which, I mean, I guess I kind of understand, you know? It's not like I'm like, yeah, dude, my stepmom killed herself, which is facts. You know, I guess I just did announce it to the world, never mind.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  So, yeah, obviously, not a great start to life. He's small, he's frail, he's, his dad kills himself. His mom and his sister are both super possessive and controlling over him. Pretty bastardsy start to the story.

• 16:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Not long after Benjamin's death, Bertha relocated the family across the country to Los Angeles. This is where Phil decides he absolutely hates being called Harvey, and he starts going by his middle name Phil.

• 17:11Robert Evans?

  Cool, alright.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  The move placed them in the predominantly Jewish neighborhood of Fairfax, which, this is just a stupid little aside, but all the kids called it, like, in the neighborhoods called it Ferryfax, because it was like, like, the weakest school around. They were like, so he's like the, he's like the weakest kid at the weakest school.

• 17:30Robert Evans?

  Right, right, yeah, they're calling his school, they're basically calling his school gay in like the parlance of the times, right?

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Which was absolutely not true when I was in high school, because Fairfax beat our ass at basketball.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Well, it's good to hear that they, I don't know. I don't know if it's good to hear. Turns out money does something long term. Shocking. So Phil struggled to make friends outside his small circle of family and school acquaintances. And he remained socially awkward and intensely sensitive and deeply dependent on maternal approval. Obviously, on account of his mom and the way she is. Yeah, the mommy issues. His only advancement into social normacy came as a result of his musicianship. He was said to be able to play any song that you heard on the, he'd hear it on the radio and could play it immediately. Like he could just start like playing along before the song even finished, right? During this time, Phil found himself his first real girlfriend, a girl named Donna Cass.

• 18:27Speaker 01

  Donna believed, Donna recalled Phil being very intelligent, but intensely possessive. He would call to places he believed she was and question the people there about her whereabouts. And when he found her, he would grill her about what she'd been doing, right? She said she believes this was his nature because it was what Bertha and Shirley did to him whenever he was at home. Right? She said, this is from Breaking Down the Wall of Sound. By the way, this will be my primary source for almost everything. Mick Brown wrote an amazing book, Breaking Down the Wall of Sound. It's really, really good. We'll touch on some stuff about it later. But that and Ronnie Spector's book, which was Be My Baby, which is amazing.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  I highly recommend reading the audio or hearing the audio book of that because it's narrated by Rosie Perez, which is. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. It's amazing to listen to Rosie Perez narrate this whole story because she's like, you know, she's like. She's Rosie fucking Perez. You know, she's got that whole thing. It's amazing. It's really good. Yeah. From Breaking Down the Wall of Sound, quote, "To Donna, it was as if Bertha and Shirley saw her as a rival for Phil's affections, who was trying to steal him away from them. She says, "I always felt they were in love with him or something. They treated him like he was a god. They protected him and they wanted to protect him from me." Weird. So, so this is like 15, 16 years old. He's already intense, like they barely even had phones.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  And this dude is calling around, checking on his girlfriend everywhere she goes and like making sure her story matches. At like, you know, like 15, right? Unhinged. I, I, I think it's, you know, yeah, well, and, and here's the thing is, this is something that I, I think is a lot of musicians are weirdos, right? It's like, there's a certain thing that goes along with being a weirdo. Yeah. And being like that kind of musical genius that people can like, that you can hear a song and, you know, and play it the first time you hear it, right? There's something that's like kind of hand in hand with the two personalities that kind of seem to go together a lot of times. So it's not weird to be weird, right? It's not weird to be small. It's not weird to be skinny.

• 20:34Speaker 01

  It's like, I know a lot of those people in the music industry, but it is weird to be possessive and, and shitty, you know, and like, and treat, you know, and have a, a, a pattern against women, which we'll see in this, in this whole thing. So, uh, during his teenage years in Los Angeles, Specter became obsessed with guitarist Barney Kessel, one of the most respected and accomplished session musicians working in the recording industry. Kessel was a jazz guitarist, but would often go on to play pop hits of the day and eventually became part of the legendary Wrecking Crew. If you know about Hollywood music in this time, the Wrecking Crew is everything. They wrote, they played on every single song in the late 50s and early 60s, all the way to the 70s, pretty much.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  They were the band you heard in the back of it. So, uh, Phil respected him both for his mastery of jazz and his seamless transition to other genres. At one point, Specter was given the opportunity to meet his idol. The meeting did not unfold as he had imagined. Bertha, his mother, insisted on accompanying him.

• 21:33Robert Evans?

  No, Bertha.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  During the conversation with his idol, yeah, Bertha, she does it, man. Uh, during the conversation, she begins questioning Kessel about career prospects, financial stability, practical viability, like a career in music, all this stuff. It's like, like, yeah, he's like, he's there. He's like, yeah, dude, I get to meet this guitarist, this legend. And she's like, well, what's the money like in the job, you know? Yeah. She, she's just taking over control of this whole conversation and Phil's just so embarrassed. Like, dude, this goes from being like, oh, I get to meet my hero in music to like, I, I'm just really embarrassed. I'm really embarrassed that I'm sitting here having this conversation. And this is just, this is his mom. His mom is in control of his life at all times. He's always, he's always stuck with that.

• 22:19Robert Evans?

  That's, yeah, okay. I did not realize, like, knowing about like the later stage of Phil Spector's life somewhat, I did not realize he started out dominated by his mom to such an extent. That

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:32Robert Evans?

  That does kinda scan.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  It does kinda scan, yeah. You know, I mean, there, it's not always true, right? It's like, a lot of times, a lot of times, people are just shitty people, right? But a lot of times, if you look into it, it is kinda like when your dad, when you're little, like, oh, he's just beating you up because he's got a shitty home life and he's trying to, so, a lot of, sometimes that is true. Sometimes they're just bullies, you know, but sometimes they just, they got a shitty home life and they're dealing with something that you can't possibly understand. So, by the mid 1950s, Spector began forming musical groups with classmates and neighborhood friends. Eventually, he helped create a vocal trio called The Teddy Bears, consisting of Phil, Annette Kleinbard, and Marshall Leebe.

• 23:13Robert Evans?

  Teddy Bears.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  The group formed The Teddy Bears. Yeah, that's such a 1950s name, too, you know?

• 23:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it is.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  So, the group formed through teenage friendships. They all went to the same school or whatever, and like, they knew each other. And, um, so it was like, just a very high school, organic situation, right? Uh, but then Phil's sister, Shirley, uh, forced her way into the band as a manager, right? She like, immediately, is like, as soon as they start having any success whatsoever, she forces her way into, into the whole situation as the manager. And then, when Phil's like, no, I don't want you to be in a manager, mom's like, let her be the manager, Phil, you know?

• 23:55Robert Evans?

  Let him down.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Immediate, yeah. Immediately, like, takes his sister's side. So, um, and she has no idea what she's doing, of course. So, like, she makes horrible decisions all over the place. She's doing dumb stuff. But Phil is still, he's the architect of this whole thing, and he, he writes this amazing song, right? Um, in 1958, while still in high school, Spector wrote and produced a song titled "To Know Him Is To Love Him." This is where I'll make my first entry into evidence of Phil was seriously fucked up. Like, I had some fuck, that was, he was fucked up, right? But this is where we're gonna get into Phil was seriously fucked up. Uh, Sophie, can you show, uh, Robert the image of the gravestone there?

• 24:35Robert Evans?

  Okay, I'm seeing it. Yeah, Ben Specter, April 20th, 1949, father, husband.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  420, baby, yeah.

• 24:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah, 420, hell yeah, brother. To know him was to love him.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  What was the, the, the name of Phil's song there was To Know Him Is To Love Him?

• 24:52Robert Evans?

  Ooh.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Phil, uh, Phil wrote.

• 24:54Robert Evans?

  He doesn't have daddy issues. He's doing good. He's fine.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Phil, Phil wrote a song and, uh, he talks later, he says, this is, this song is about death. You know, this is a song about death. And, um, nobody noticed because it's framed in the 1950s kinda, you know. To know, know, know him is to love. Yeah, it's very silly, but he had, you know, nobody else gets it, but if you listen to it, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, you were kinda like.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  It was like a huge fucking hit.

• 25:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a huge hit. It was a huge hit. It was a very big deal.

• 25:25Robert Evans?

  Oh, that's good.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  It became a massive national hit, reaching number one on Billboard charts. Uh, part of its success came from side bastards appearance, Dick Clark, American Bandstand. Side Bastard. Yes, that's right. Dick Clark is a side bastard today. I'm not gonna get deep into him, but he basically invented payola. People would pay him to put bands on American Bandstand. And it, because of him, like, literally, like, the, that's what got out of control eventually and caused, like, the biggest, you know, one of the biggest scandals in the music industry for the longest time is like, you have to pay in order to become successful.

• 26:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Thanks, dude.

• 26:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah, the pay to play deal.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Thanks for creating that.

• 26:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Uh, so the success was astonishing, right? Given the band's youth. Phil is only 17 at this time. He's a, he's a baby, right?

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Um, so it's, it's massive. Like Sophie said, it was a number one hit across the country. It was a huge song. To even today, it's still like, uh, kind of a big song like that. I looked it up, it had like a couple hundred million streams or something. It was insane. Um.

• 26:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  This experience kinda cemented because he was the architect of this whole thing. He was the, the boss of this whole situation. So this kinda cemented like his like dominance in the studio. This is what made him one of, he was the producer on it. At 17 years old, you have a number one hit in the country, your ego's probably gonna go a little.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  You know?

• 26:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  It's certainly not. So, um, but this is where I'm gonna hit item number two of Phil Spector was seriously fucked up.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  But before you do that, as the boss and the producer of this podcast, you know what time it is?

• 27:05Robert Evans?

  Oh shit.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  It is time for some advertisers.

• 27:08Robert Evans?

  And you know what none of our sponsors did is raise Phil Spector. I feel confident saying that. None of our advertisers helped, helped raise Phil Spector. Fairly certain.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  I believe it.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  I was really curious where you were going with that.

• 27:23Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Speaker 04

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• 27:56Robert Evans?

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• 28:55Robert Evans?

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• 29:02Speaker 06

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• 29:36Robert Evans?

  And we're back. Ah, boy, I sure love those ads from, I don't know, probably the Portland Police Bureau and then some AI company.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  I wish you'd get sponsored by a whiskey company. That would be nice.

• 29:48Robert Evans?

  I know. I wish. I'll take your whiskey. I'll tell people to drink it. I have no problem telling people, you know, to drink. There's no health consequences to that. You know, it's a lot healthier than gambling.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  I actually try, like, I was doing social media for a little while where I was doing cocktails with Greasy, like, as like a thing, hoping like some company would be like, hey, this guy's doing alcohol content.

• 30:10Robert Evans?

  Maybe some liquor, yeah.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Didn't work, though. That was the only reason to do it. I literally just was like, oh, some free booze, you know? Like, let's subsidize this control.

• 30:19Robert Evans?

  You're just throwing out like a fishing line and hoping a brand picks up so you can drink for free?

• 30:25Speaker 01

  That's all I've ever wanted.

• 30:26Robert Evans?

  That's how the internet works now.

• 30:30Robert Evans?

  All right, where are we?

• 30:31Speaker 01

  All right. So while on tour, Specter was allegedly cornered by hostile individuals who mocked and humiliated him.

• 30:39Robert Evans?

  What are they mocking him about?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Being short, being a nerd, being, being short and nerdy. I mean, I'm assuming.

• 30:47Robert Evans?

  This is still old enough that just being short and having glasses will cause you some serious shit.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yes. So keep in mind, too, like, this is important. He, at adulthood, was probably only like five foot three. Like, he did not, when I say he was little. He was real little, right? So like, we don't know if this story is true. It's very mythological bullshit type stuff. But we don't know if this story is true. But it absolutely, if it is true, it makes a lot of sense about who he would later become.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  He was physically restrained and urinated on during the encounter.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  The precise details vary depending on the source and it's like kinda multiple biographies reference it. He said it. He told this story later on as well.

• 31:34Robert Evans?

  He gets like ganged up on by a bunch of guys outside of a show who are making fun of him because he's a short little nerd and they like hold him down and piss on him, it sounds like?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I think he's in the bathroom when it happens. You like, like he goes in to go to the bathroom after a show and they like attack him in the bathroom or whatever. It's very like 90s like teen high school movie type situation.

• 31:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's very strange.

• 31:58Robert Evans?

  That's almost like a Carrie type deal or Heathers or something like. That's intense bullying when they're pissing on you.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. If the story is accurate, it appears to have deeply scarred him.

• 32:08Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that would. That's pretty bad.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Especially when you think like, imagine where he's at in this whole situation. Like, he thinks he's like made it. Like, he's on top of the world. He's got a number one hit and he's got money. He's got success. People all over the country are seeing him, come to see him play shows. And he just goes to the bathroom, like walking off stage probably one night, and he gets jumped in the bathroom and pissed on. Like, that's

• 32:36Speaker 01

  yikes.

• 32:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that'll do a number on you. I think that's gonna make him a better guy.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. Definitely not gonna make him a nice person. Alright, so despite the group's success, fractures quickly appeared within the teddy bears. Annette Kleinbauer used her earnings from the hit record to purchase a car. And not long afterwards, she was involved in a serious accident that left her hospitalized for an extended period. So she gets a bunch of money. She gets a nice car.

• 33:02Robert Evans?

  She gets one of those 60s, 50s, 60s cars that's just, it's steel. There's no seat belts. The car, all of the force of the impact is transferred to you.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. We're probably predating like, like the National Traffic Safety Board like requiring seat belts by like 20 years at this point.

• 33:19Robert Evans?

  I feel like, yeah. I don't know when.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  So she gets in this horrible accident and this is kind of the nail in the coffin for the group. But, you know, she's, Annette says that, well, she's in the hospital. She gets in this horrible accident and Phil doesn't call her or come by or anything. He just That's it. That's just the end.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  Kick move.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  He just leaves. He just goes away and that's it. There's no band anymore.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  They're so they're like high school friends. This is very strange, you know, to like,

• 33:46Speaker 02

  I see.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  To get this, you know, this far successful with your high school friends and there's no incident. It's not like they didn't get along or anything like that. They, they, they were all friends and then he was just like, deuces, I'm out of here.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  What do you think it was like she could no longer provide use to him? You think it was something like that or we really can't even speculate?

• 34:05Speaker 01

  I think, I think you're right on the, the path, uh, Sophie. I think you will find, uh, as we continue on, anytime somebody stops serving, uh, their, their usefulness to him, Phil is, is done with them. He just wipes them from his life.

• 34:19Robert Evans?

  Very transactional.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Which, uh, spoiler alert is the next person we're going to talk about, Lester Sill. Lester Sill, uh, this is right after this time or, or during this time. And this is when he made friends and a partnership with Lester Sill. Lester Sill was a decorated war, war two veteran who fought in the battle of the bulge. He made his way into the music industry after that and, and despite what you think, actually the nicest guy. Everybody's like, oh, dude, as soon as he walks in the room, he's the best. Man, I love this guy, you know, like this is like, this is like.

• 34:50Robert Evans?

  It makes sense. If you lived through the battle of the bulge, it's hard to get like, bent out of shape about the little things.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  One would assume, but also I've met a lot of very disgruntled war veterans in my time. And I've been like, God, why are you guys so mad, bro? Just like, I don't know. Get an addiction that helps out or something. I don't know.

• 35:12Robert Evans?

  Right. Get an addiction. That's always my advice to people.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  So, um, Lester took a liking to Phil and assumed a fatherly role in his life. So, uh, he like really does step into Phil's life. Him and, uh, Bertha and Phil start having problems at home. He lets Phil move in with him, you know, uh, he gives them connections. He tell, he introduces them to people. He tells everybody, this is this, this killer of producer Phil. Like he's just like helping them out anywhere and he even sends him to, uh, Phoenix, I believe it was, to meet Lee Hazelwood. Lee Hazelwood, uh, at this time is a really successful writer. He would later go on to write, uh, these boots are made for walking, which

• 35:52Robert Evans?

  Oh.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  My girl Nancy Sinatra. Uh, she's so beautiful.

• 35:57Robert Evans?

  That's, that's one of the finest achievements of our species. Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Love that song.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  So he sends him to hang out with Lee Hazelwood. And Lee Hazelwood hates him. Lee Hazelwood is like, "This motherfucker won't stop asking questions. He's always like doing stuff. He's like, he's weird and he's just always around me and I don't like him." And, and he tells him, "Never bring him back to my studio. I never want to see that guy again."

• 36:22Robert Evans?

  Wow, okay.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  So, so, uh, this is like, kind of seems like a pattern as we'll start to like emerge here is that like, either you love Phil, or you are like, "I can't stand that dude."

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Fuck that guy, yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, yeah, that guy's the worst. Um, so after this, he moves on to a relationship with another girl. So he, he breaks up with Donna Cass or whatever. He moves on to a relationship with another girl, Lynn Castle. But it was short-lived as she couldn't stand his incessant interrogations. This quote, "His behavior got too friggin' crazy, too absolutely crazy. Where are you? What are you doing? Where are you going? Controlling."

• 36:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that sounds right.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  So, this is clearly a pattern. He is absolutely controlling. He's like definitely trying to like, uh...

• 37:10Robert Evans?

  That's basically what I knew about Phil Spector going into this. Is that he was like super controlling in his professional and personal relationships. Yeah, that's kind of all I knew, yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  And that is, that is exactly it. Um, and we'll, we'll, we'll get more into like this professional side of this too. But it is, uh, it is alarming early, you know? And like Sophie, we, we, we brought this up earlier. It's like, it's like letting people get away with stuff and how long can they get away with it, you know? And, and it seems like, I mean, it's the 50s, so let's be fair. Like, this is still the time where, or like early 60s. This is definitely the time where like, like jokes on TV were like, "Your wife is talking too much. Give her the old one-four in the eye," you know?

• 37:50Robert Evans?

  Right, right, right.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  You know, like the honeymooners are like actively like, like, "To the moon, I'm gonna punch you right in the face."

• 37:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, bang, zoom, straight to the, it's, it's like an aspect of like, yeah, cause it's just like so common and universal at the time, right?

• 38:04Speaker 02

  It's so nice to hear somebody else do an old timey voice besides Robert, cause Robert's is so good.

• 38:09Robert Evans?

  Straight to the moon, Alice. That's not even a good accent.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  I loved it.

• 38:14Robert Evans?

  Archie Bunker shit.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  It's great, guys.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  You were doing your best.

• 38:17Robert Evans?

  It is, there's two different, it's interesting, the two different kinds of reactions to, oh, I keep like, doing things I'm not supposed to be doing and I haven't gotten in trouble yet, because like, the two reactions are, the one, the one I have had about things that I won't talk about on air, where at a certain point, more than whatever the statute of limitations is ago, I was like, I'm gonna stop doing this. Done this too many times, I'm not gonna keep taking this risk anymore. Like, I've gotten lucky, but I feel like I'm gonna stop rolling the dice on this.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  I did, I feel the exact same way every time my, uh, my registration on my car goes more than eight months out of, out of date.

• 38:54Robert Evans?

  Right, right.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  When I'm like, alright, eight months, that's a long time to be getting away with this.

• 38:58Robert Evans?

  Those three years I didn't register my car, right, yeah, stuff like that, where it's like, that's probably, now I, I'm, or shoplifting, where it's like, I've got enough money now, I'm not gonna keep taking the risk. And then other people who are like, no one's called me on my shit, guess I'm gonna get even crazier, and then they become the president.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  No reason to stop now.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Alright, so, uh, spoiler alert on Phil, he doesn't get any better.

• 39:24Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  This, this is his pattern, he keeps going. Um, but they do break up, him and Lynn break up, and, uh, he starts expressing a desire to relocate back to New York City.

• 39:35Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  New York offered something that he really wanted, which was proximity to a legitimacy. In New York at the time, there is a, uh, there is a building called the Brill Building, and we're gonna tell you this, well, I'll just read, because it's better to read than to summarize, I think. "Specter quickly embedded himself in the Brill Building ecosystem, the highly competitive songwriting and production factory that produced some of the most influential pop music of the era. The environment was famously ruthless. Young writers churned out songs daily, competing for placement with artists and labels. Success required speed, instinct, and relentless self-promotion. Specter thrived creatively, but developed a reputation almost immediately for opportunism."

• 40:14Speaker 01

  So, I just read this thing where it's like, hey, everybody's cutthroat up in this shit, and then it's like, Specter immediately gets a reputation for being opportunistic in a cutthroat building. To be opportunistic, to be like that in a cutthroat, you definitely, you know, it's like-

• 40:32Robert Evans?

  In the music industry, to be a cutthroat, for people to be like, that guy is fucking ruthless, is, is something, yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Multiple collaborators from this period later accused him of aggressively positioning himself for credit and financial participation in projects that were often collaborative efforts.

• 40:49Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  There were recurring stories of Spectre inserting himself into songwriting or production roles and minimizing the contributions of others once success became likely. In some cases, he was accused of leaving collaborators off credits entirely, a move that not only deprived them of recognition but also cut them out of long-term royalty income. So.

• 41:08Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  He's, he's already just ruthless. So there's something that I want to bring up here, which is about the way that writing works or writing a song works, right? Which is like, the, the deal is, if there is no prior agreement, alright? If two people just walk into a room and write a song together.

• 41:28Robert Evans?

  Right. And they didn't, not as, right, and not as part of a pre-existing business arrangement or whatever.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did not, and no one specified like, hey.

• 41:36Robert Evans?

  Spontaneous art, yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yes. If nothing is specified, it is a 50/50 split. Doesn't matter if one person wrote one word and the other wrote the entire song and all he was like, if you come into that, if it's three people, it's 33 to a third, if it's four, it's 25%, unless you have already agreed to something, that's what the, like, legal split is for this whole situation. So for him to come into like sessions and be like, jumping right on, it's like, it's like, I've seen this before, like, somebody walks in the room and starts suggesting things and you're just like, you just took a portion of my, my cut of this song and your suggestions were things I was gonna do anyways, that's kind of annoying, you know? It's like, it's really easy to finagle in this time period especially.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  So, a fellow writer named Beverly Ross, who helped Phil recall his promises to bring her with him if he were to ever get into the right rooms, but he reneged immediately upon being granted opportunities. She saw Phil as a user and she was eventually offered a staff job, but she declined it because she would have to see Phil every day. So this woman literally turns down a successful money-paying job writing at the Brill Building because she was like, oh, I'd have to see Phil every day and he is... Cold. I don't want to be around him. He's the worst, right?

• 42:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's sketchy as hell.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  I respected a man could be that annoying that you're like, absolutely not.

• 43:00Robert Evans?

  I want, this is not worth the job.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  The job is not worth my peace of mind. Please stay away from me.

• 43:07Robert Evans?

  We should all have that much self-respect.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, really, but you know, 2026, man, it's hard, man. It's hard to live.

• 43:14Robert Evans?

  You seen the market out there? Yeah, I got friends searching right now. It's nuts.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  All right, so this is from her, quote, "I was so gun shy of ever becoming vulnerable to someone who'd betrayed me like that because Phil practically killed me emotionally. I figured I wasn't smart enough to handle the part of his personality that I understand. It was like Phil was born without a conscience and I was his victim. He could be so ruthless."

• 43:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  So seemingly, we have heard only from women that this is an issue, right? It's like this does not seem to be very much a male issue. This is a-

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Consistent, yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Women around him have to feel the br- and, you know, I mean,

• 43:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  Again, not to like give anybody an out or any empathy for somebody who's a shitty person because like shitty acts are shitty acts and it doesn't matter, but you can see like this is kind of like an emotional and, you know, reaction to his mother and his sister.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Pushing him, controlling him.

• 44:11Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  And also too-

• 44:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. An explanation isn't absolution. Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  I'm, I think I'm gonna talk about this later, but so Phil, whenever he went to work at the Brill Building, after he got his money from the teddy bears, right? He made a lot of money. He had to actually take his mother to court. I know, it's so funny. He had to take his mother to court to get his money because even as like a teenager, his mom was like, no, he can't, you can't, you can't be trusted. You'll leave us. You won't let us have any money. You won't take care of us. And so he's basically, even like going into adulthood, he's having to fight his mom in court over his own money because of the way, you know, because of the way that she is, the controlling nature of her and everything. So, you know, it's like he's, he's doing that while also

• 44:57Speaker 01

  controlling other people and, and, you know, doing shitty things to other women.

• 45:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that, yeah. So it's in part just kind of his revenge based on his shitty mom.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. He's just taking it out on other people.

• 45:13Robert Evans?

  Well, and also just he grew up learning that like, that's what you do to people. Like you can either be controlled or controlling.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:20Robert Evans?

  I'll pick controlling. Yeah, sure.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Um, so, so yeah, so being cutthroat, like we said, being cutthroat isn't weird in the music industry. Like, you know, there's a lot of people that are famous for their like ruthless activities inside the music industry, especially in the old days or whatever. But to be in a cutthroat environment and be the cuttiest throatiest person of that environment is like, okay, like, everybody is like, no, Phil is the worst of all of them. Like, you know, everybody, everybody in the building hates him. Nobody trusts him. He gets a reputation for just being like the dude that would show up all the time and just like jump in on things and take control and all this stuff. People don't like him.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  So, one of the most important relationships Spector formed during this New York period was with legendary songwriting production duo Jerry Lieber and Mike Stoller. Lieber and Stoller were already giants of the early rock and rhythm and blues era and were responsible for shaping hits for artists like Elvis Presley, The Coasters, like numerous other artists. They were architects of the modern producer model, combining songwriting and arrangement and studio direction into a single creative authority. At this point, like, music is changing really fast, uh, at this point, you know, because the technology's changing, the way that people operate is changing. It went from being like, oh, this is a band that plays this music to now like, we got a creative team, all these people are writing this stuff.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  And like, also too, this is really important, this is the first time in musical history that music goes from being marketed to adults to being marketed to teenagers.

• 46:52Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Because prior to this, there has never been, uh, teenagers with money. You know, like, teenagers just didn't have-

• 47:01Robert Evans?

  They weren't an economic force. Yeah.

• 47:03Speaker 01

  Yes, they weren't an economic force.

• 47:05Robert Evans?

  As a teenager, you're like, you were just working in the mines and handing money to your parents so that they could buy starvation with it. Yeah, so you could afford to starve to death.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  So this is the first time in all of recorded history, basically, that teenagers become a market, right? And this is really important to this whole overview of like, where, where the, the money comes from and how they market to things and how they- Even write a song like so it went from being like, okay, a band does all this to like a group of guys would get together in a room and start being like, okay, cool like I wrote this song. I was gonna give it to this person, but you know, we should give it to this person. And that's why in this time you'll see a lot of like, uh, you know, like Aretha Franklin songs that are also Otis Redding songs later or whatever, you know, like people would just write a song and give it to an artist and then anybody who liked that song would also cover it because

• 47:57Speaker 01

  the money went back to the publishing, the like the performance is a minimal amount of the money. The publishing is the money. So these guys would keep giving these songs to other people, other artists and be like, you should do this song and it just became normalized to do that. So the um, the strength of the, of the uh, music industry went from being bands to being producers. Right? And this is where Phil kind of slams hard into the industry. All right. So he falls in like he, he falls in with these guys, Lieber and Stoller, who are like the guys of the time. They are the Max Martins or whatever famous producer. They the, the, the Kenny Beats or the Dr. Dre's or the whatever you love.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  They're that of this time. Um, and Spectre admired them intensely. He studied their recording techniques, their business strategies, and their ability to shape artist identities from behind the glass. In many ways, Lieber and Stoller provided Spectre with a blueprint for the career he wanted to build. Despite recognizing his talent, however, Lieber and Stoller never fully trusted him.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  Accounts from associates and later biographies describe them as simultaneously impressed by Spectre's musical talents and wary of his personality. He was ambitious, obsessive, and socially abrasive. He pushed himself into rooms he had not been invited into. He demanded opportunities he had not yet earned. He hovered around sessions, absorbing information and inserting suggestions persistently, trying to attach himself to projects. Uh, but they kept, they kept giving him chances, right? Part of this was practical, practical because he was actually, he was good. He was very good. He was musically talented. Yes. And so it's like, man, you ever worked with somebody who was good at their job, but a horrible person? Yes. Like we've all been there, right? Sure. Yeah. Yes. Many a time. Many a time. Right? Yeah.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  And you're like, oh. Spectre's coming to the studio today.

• 49:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  We're gonna write a banger.

• 49:54Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna make sure I'm not there, but.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're gonna write a banger, but.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  But he sucks.

• 49:59Robert Evans?

  Fucking gotta sit in the room with that dick.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Their willingness to tolerate him also reflected that, you know, uh, he represents the next step. Like what I was just talking about. He's the next step in the evolutionary ladder of working in the music industry. You know, it's like he's, he is the, the producer model that will become the, the tour de force in the industry.

• 50:22Robert Evans?

  That's a, yeah, that's, that's, that's a good note. I do want to say, you know what I'm willing to settle for, Will?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Uh, billions of dollars? I only want to become a billionaire just for the record. And, and I'm sure, I know, I actually know that you do get, uh, you get billions of dollars from these ads, right?

• 50:41Robert Evans?

  I do, I do billions of every, every single ad, uh.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  And there's no healthcare given to any of your employees. You are just like, you are a hardcore Jeff Bezos, man. This is amazing.

• 50:52Robert Evans?

  I actually bought Bezos's yacht just to sink so that my yacht will, will avoid sinking the same way. You know, that's, that's what we're doing with the Netflix money.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Don't sleep on that couch as well, I'm saying.

• 51:07Speaker 02

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• 51:08Robert Evans?

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• 51:12Speaker 02

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• 51:17Speaker 07

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• 52:45Robert Evans?

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• 53:27Robert Evans?

  We're back. The answer was gonorrhea. All right, well, let's continue.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  All right. So this is where Phil starts really developing his understanding of how records are made. How, I mean, this is a learning environment. This is the professional, like, environment of writers in New York. This is his, like, high school or college or whatever. This is his moment. He absorbs all that. And he starts really understanding, like, the recording studio and the process of recording is, it is like the music itself. The music comes from the environment that this stuff is made in as much as anything else. And this is kind of like a new concept, because, you know, music is, we're in the 60s right now, right? We're in the 60s.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  We only really started having like reasonable sounding recording, recorded music like 10 years prior to this, before anything like that, before 10 years, like, we only got, everybody say thank you to Adolf Hitler right now, thank you Adolf, without- No.

• 54:34Robert Evans?

  One of his many contributions to the recording industry.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  To the world, was, we got, uh, post-war, war II, uh, you, I, do you know this about Hitler? This is actually a really funny little situation.

• 54:46Robert Evans?

  Cause it was huge to him, he famously believed and wrote about this in Mein Kampf, that the best way to convince people of anything was the human voice, that the pure human voice was the best tool for influencing people.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  And at the time, the Brits were so confused. At the time, exactly, literally, he, he was ahead of the curve on that shit.

• 55:04Robert Evans?

  He would have been, he would have been a podcaster, oh my god.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Adolf Hitler, the world's first podcaster, amazing.

• 55:10Robert Evans?

  That's right, that's right.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  He, you know, it's like, the British were all baffled at the time too, cause like, prior to this, like, basically, they had magnetic wire recording and they had wax cylinders that they could record to, right? And it was basically one shot, one kill, if you like, if you messed up, it was over, right? But magnetic recording, actually, and it, and it was cleaner, it sounded way better, like, in comparison to like, the old vinyls that they had, the, like, it was way cleaner, it sounded more pure, and the Brits were like, how is this guy broadcasting from like, eight different cities in absolute clarity? Like, they're so confused at the time, they have no idea what's going on, all because Hitler's over there with the only magnetic recorder that's in the entire world, cause just turns out BASF, they're in Germany, which is still a company, congratulations, you guys made

• 55:55Speaker 01

  it through the entire Nazi regime and all the backlash, I, you know, hats off. So without Hitler and his magnetic recording, we would not have the music industry.

• 56:04Robert Evans?

  There you go.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  They brought, the GIs, the GIs brought it back in the 40s, uh, to America, we started tinkering with it, by late 50s, we have Les Paul and Bill Putnam, basically- Like the gods of recording.

• 56:18Robert Evans?

  Folks, if it hadn't been for Hitler, none of us would have been able to hear the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones album about George Floyd. And what kind of America would that be?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  I so desperately want to take the time, oh, five second story. I once went to a concert and you know the guy that dances on stage and that's his only job? Somebody threw a shoe and it hit him right in the fucking face and it took him completely out and they stopped the concert and they were like, "We're not gonna play." And somebody goes, "Who cares?"

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Wow. That's my favorite Mighty Mighty Boss Tones story. Alright. So, sorry, I was on a little tangent there. Hitler gave us recording. But it's very new. Recording is very new, right? So, the, the way that they record is changing by, by the day, right? It's like, people are discovering new things. We go from a single track on, to record to, to now we have two tracks and you can bounce back and forth and now we have four tracks. And the next thing you know, they've got a whole console that they've made that, you know, and these guys are literally building them themselves. Like Bill Pottemn was like building, hand building his own consoles and everything. And, uh, and so they now have some technology. It opens up the world of recording. Prior to this, if you were a band,

• 57:33Speaker 01

  that was the only way to record music, right? You had to stand all around this horn and everybody like make their noise and whoever was like the loudest in the horn is the loudest. So you put the vocalist the closest and you put the drummer way the hell back and like, you know, you have to, it's, it's complicated. It's, it's, you're so concerned with just getting a recording that you don't have really time to think about the artistic direction of the recording. And so, this moment in history, the late 50s, early 1960s, this is the moment that changes all of recorded music and why obviously I'm such a big fan of this. As someone who considers himself to be a stereophile Specter, you know, I,

• 58:15Speaker 01

  I, I absorb a lot of his music and I think that this is, uh, like how I try and portray myself in a lot of this stuff. Without all the, you know, well, actually we same number of ex-wives, that's great. We have the same number of ex-wives at three. We're crushing it. Woo!

• 58:31Robert Evans?

  But without the other crimes.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Without the other crimes.

• 58:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  Alright. So, uh- Rather than treating musicians as equal collaborators, Spector increasingly saw them as interchangeable components in a larger sonic structure. If one player failed to achieve the desired result, another could replace them. If a vocalist lacked the emotional texture he wanted, he could manipulate arrangement, echo, orchestration, reverb, all these things to compensate. And it would later evolve. Sorry, go ahead.

• 59:00Robert Evans?

  No, this is like, and it seems like this is in a lot of ways the birth of the end of like music transitioning away, popular music transitioning away from these are people who like make something like art that they want to share with people to, this is a product. And we can, we can cut out pieces and slide in pieces wherever we need to.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  100%. This is absolutely the birth of that. This is the birth of, uh, like I am pitching this song to Ariana Grande because she might sing it great, but I don't care if Beyonce takes it.

• 59:30Robert Evans?

  Let's get bidding on this music. Yeah.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:33Speaker 01

  It's no longer as much. I mean, I still think people put as much love and passion into their

• 59:38Robert Evans?

  Sure, yeah.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Music as always, but it's.

• 59:40Robert Evans?

  We're saying it's nothing but bad or whatever, but it's a big change.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  Yes, it is a very big change.

• 59:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Um, so Spector closely studied records that were experimenting with dense layering and orchestral pop arrangements, particularly productions that emphasized emotional saturation through instrumental doubling and echo chamber effects. Songs like "Under the Boardwalk," you know that song?

• 1:00:00Robert Evans?

  Under the boardwalk.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  If you listen to something.

• 1:00:03Robert Evans?

  Down by the sea, yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  If you listen to that, you will absolutely hear what are the early, uh, you know, phrases that, that Spector would draw from. It sounds basically like a Phil Spector song. It's got, you know, like the orchestration is buried in there. It's like, you know, the vocal is very upfront and everything, but everything else is kind of a mesh behind it and, um, and it's not nearly, there's a lot of reverb and everything. It's not nearly, uh, as clean and clear as some of like, because that was the, the goal, right? It was like for so long, they're like, we just want to make something that sounds good. And then all of a sudden they're like, oh, actually we can make anything. So let's just make it sound crazy. Let's make it sound reverb-y. Let's do like experimentation with this stuff. So he starts to get into that. Um. What distinguished Specter was not necessarily that he invented these techniques,

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  but that he became obsessed with expanding them to their absolute extreme. Where earlier producers used layering to enhance song, Specter began envisioning arrangements where individual instruments disappeared into a unified emotional mass. Precision gave way to density, clarity gave way to atmosphere. The was, recording was not meant to be dissected, it was meant to overwhelm you, right? And this is like the big principle of the wall of sound. Anybody who knows about Phil Spector, like, seriously knows about the wall of sound. The wall of sound was Phil Spector's creation in sorts. It's a, it's a way of recording that makes the music, um, like, very Wagnerian, right?

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  It's very, it's like a Wagner opera, it's a bunch of noise coming at you, right? And it is meant to overwhelm you. There's often layers of percussion, it was all like, uh, uh, layers of instrumentation. There'd be drummer on drummer on drummer, three piano players, like, six guitarists. Uh, and this is such a big change, because like I said, prior to this, it was like, well, you just put a band in a room and then you record the band, right? And so now it's all of a sudden like, I don't have to reproduce this on stage, it doesn't have to sound like this. I'm gonna make this, I'm gonna put 10 pianos on here, I'm gonna go crazy with this shit, you know?

• 1:02:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I can do anything? Okay, I want 10 pianos then, bring in 10 pianos! It's also like, kind of that like, era of, like, that starts there where it's like, the money is actually in music? Where they're like, "I need 10 pianos tonight!", and like, someone goes out and picks up 10 pianos, you know? It's really amazing.

• 1:02:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so like, this is also, yeah, kind of the birth of the insane expenditures for like, crazy artistical whims.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Aspect, yeah. It later transforms into a cocaine budget, but, well, it's a little early. It's early for the cocaine budget, but it will eventually become a cocaine budget.

• 1:02:42Robert Evans?

  Exciting.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  So despite being signed to Lieber and Stoller, those two mentors that he had, he eventually becomes enamored with the co-founder of Atlantic Records, Ahmet Ertegun. And when given the opportunity to jump ship, he wasted no time, right? Lieber and Stoller are pissed. They're like, "Bro, what are you doing? Like, we gave you this opportunity."

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  We tolerated your bitch ass, and you're just gonna dip?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Yes, we tolerated you. We let you come in.

• 1:03:07Robert Evans?

  We put up with your ass.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  And he's like, "Actually, I was underage when I signed your contract, so it doesn't matter. You guys can't do shit." And he just walks out, right? And, and they're like, "Yeah, yeah, it's fair. That was true." You get, in fact, sign an underage person to a contract without having the proper legal authority. So, whoops, we fucked up. So, um, so he becomes friends with Ahmet Ertegun. Ertegun recognizes his talent, and he starts learning from him. Uh, it's, he's just an old-school record guy, right? And now, so Phil's now learning the business, right? This is, he was in the music thing, and now he's like, "I'm gonna learn the business." Phil would find some reasonable successes during this time, remaining under the tutelage of his friend Lester Still, the old WWII veteran. Um, but he would eventually desire more freedom to work as he pleased.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  And so he and Lester formed Phil S. Records. A portmanteau of their two names, I think that's the word, portmanteau, right?

• 1:03:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, portmanteau, that's it, yep.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Thanks, nailed it. Look at me with a...

• 1:04:03Robert Evans?

  Yeah, right, baby.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Look at, I just guessed on that one. Thanks.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  He was slowly becoming the king of girl groups. It was actually around this time that he was dubbed "the tycoon of teen", which sounds very questionable.

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  I don't like that. Don't like that. Nope. No visceral reaction.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, by the age of 21, he had become an undeniable force in the industry. Um, he had produced a string of hits. Like, I think he had like 21 top 10 singles in like-

• 1:04:36Robert Evans?

  Jesus.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  -three years or something. Yeah, it was like an insane amount. Uh, his first major success was, uh, "Spanish Harlem", after his own "Spanish Harlem" by Benny King. And then, uh, "There's No One Other Like My Baby" by The Crystals, uh, "He's a Rebel" by The Crystals, uh, Bobby Socks and the Blue Jeans had a song, "Zippity Doodah", lots of crazy hits, right? Yeah, crazy, crazy hits, right? Here's a little, little piece, though. The Crystals- Are sitting there. They, they, they had recorded, there's no one other like my baby. He did well on the charts. And then, you know, a few months later, they're sitting there, listening to the radio one afternoon, and they hear a song come on, they're like, oh, this is cool, this is an interesting song.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  And they get done and the radio announces all, and that was, He's a Rebel by The Crystals. And they're like, wait, what? Phil had begun recording songs and then releasing them as band songs, without any of them having been on the song. He didn't, he didn't care. He was just like, they're all replaceable to me.

• 1:05:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  You're all just, you're all just singers. I don't care about you at all, especially you're all female singers. You're all female singers. I will just replace you. He never does this to a man, not in his entire career.

• 1:05:55Robert Evans?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  But to women, he does this.

• 1:05:58Robert Evans?

  Be slightly less obvious, Phil.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 1:06:02Robert Evans?

  Be just like 2% less obvious, man.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Also, it's like.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Hey, man.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  I would have punched him in the. I would have put, I don't care what dick, I would have punched him in his face. I would, I would have looked him at eye level and punched him in the face. Yes.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  I'm glad you bring that up, Sandy. Because, um, another tick in the Phil is seriously like, uh, uncomfortable without his, his gun, uh, comes from, uh, the lead singer of The Crystals. And I forget her name, I'm sorry, I, I, I hack and a fraud just like you. So, uh, I forgot her name, but, uh, she tells a story in this documentary I watched where she's like, yeah, I saw that and I was like, okay. So she goes and she talks to this mobster that she knows. And this mobster goes out and just beats the dog piss out of Phil. And it's like.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  How you like, if you ever do that.

• 1:06:51Robert Evans?

  Thank you, comrade mobster.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, man, sometimes organized crime has its purpose. Let's be fair, you know?

• 1:06:59Robert Evans?

  It's often more reliable than the government.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Wait, what was the name of the documentary you were just talking about?

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  This is from "The Agony and the Ecstasy of Phil Spector."

• 1:07:09Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  So, he has a bunch of successes. Uh, "Zippity Doodah," uh, "Be My Baby with the Ronettes," uh, "You've Lost That Loving Feeling with the Righteous Brothers." He is on top of the world.

• 1:07:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Jesus, that's-

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, "Be My Baby."

• 1:07:29Robert Evans?

  I was listening to that one in an Uber last night, actually.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, "Be My Baby" is on the my- I have a vinyl from the Dirty Dancing soundtrack and it's on there. It's so good.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Uh, very funny story. Years later, Phil Spector, um, he, he was asked by Martin Scorsese to use "Be My Baby" for the opening of, uh, Cocaine Cowboy, I think it was, is that the one? Anyway, he, it's the opening of it, it's "Be My Baby," they do a whole thing, and he's asked and he's like, "No." And then they do it anyway. And he, and he sees it, it comes out, John Lennon shows it to him and he sees it and he comes out and he's like, "What the hell? I didn't tell them they could do that," you know? And so he gets all mad, and then he sues him, of course, which, you know, is fair or whatever. That's fair, that's fair. You use a song without permission, that's fair, you sued him. But then he goes on for the rest of his life and tells everybody, "I made Scorsese, without me he didn't."

• 1:08:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, okay, alright. That was a bit of a dick move for old Martin, but-

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Tells everybody for the rest of his life.

• 1:08:23Robert Evans?

  I don't think that's why.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  And that, at the pinnacle of Phil's success, is where we will leave this episode, Robert. Um, it, how do you, how do you feel about Phil so far? I mean, he's a little bit of a dick, but, you know, he's hit some bangers. He's hit some bangers.

• 1:08:39Robert Evans?

  So far, he just sounds like an asshole who's really good at his job.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  His, I didn't know all that shit about his mom.

• 1:08:46Robert Evans?

  Oh, wait, no, and a huge misogynist who screws over female, uh, uh-

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would've punched, I would've punched him in the wiener, is what I'm saying.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Again, it's like, if this was, if this was the end, right? You'd be like, "Nah, I mean, not really bastard worthy," like, he's-

• 1:09:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that guy's just-

• 1:09:01Robert Evans?

  Kind of a dick.

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  That guy's-

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  He sucks.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Suck, yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  But like, there's no shortage of those people in the music industry, right? It's like, there really is, yeah, there's no shortage of horrible people in the music industry. I like, I meet them all the time. And then I'm like, cool, this is why I stopped working with labels. I'm going back to my studio. I'll see y'all later. Yeah. But it is, it, there, there's a lot of them, right? And you know what's, you know what's tough too? Is for every awful person I meet in the music industry, I meet a legend that I'm like, you're the nicest person I've ever met. And like, how are you this good and this cool? And this person not that good and way shitty? Like, I don't understand it. I'll never get it. It's, there's a weird proportion in that stuff.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  Wild.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  Robert, you can be found at I Write OK.

• 1:09:47Robert Evans?

  I can't. Thank you for leading me in.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, you, I, I like to think of it more as like, like you telling your parents back in like the, the early 2000s, why you can't move back home and why you're having success in Los Angeles? And you're like, I write, OK, you know?

• 1:10:04Robert Evans?

  It's just, it's, yeah.

• 1:10:05Speaker 02

  That's exactly how I read it too.

• 1:10:07Robert Evans?

  You being exhaustive, explaining what I do for a living.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  I write, OK.

• 1:10:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. It's just that. Go away.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Uh, I can be found at, uh, at Greasy Will, Greasy, at Greasy Will Music. You can just Google me. I'm like on the internet. Uh, I have, I have a recording course. If you want to learn about how to record from a Grammy Award winning engineer, I have one. It can be found at greasydoesit.com or you can just Google me or you can go to my, I'm on the internet, man. I'm on the internet. Like, it can't be that hard.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  He's out there.

• 1:10:41Robert Evans?

  It's easy to find people.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I feel like you guys will be fine tracking it. It's a Z. It's not with an S. I get a lot of greasy wheels and that kind of does make me mad.

• 1:10:50Robert Evans?

  Different guy, different guy, and you don't want to meet him.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  I mean, if you told this on the podcast, who, who gave you the name Greasy Will?

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Pharrell. It came from Pharrell.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, OK.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Pharrell's son.

• 1:11:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very cool.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  It's fucking cool.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Very cool.

• 1:11:06Robert Evans?

  That is cool.

• 1:11:06Speaker 01

  It was very cool. It's super cool, you know? But, yeah, you know?

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  This is the end of the episode, friends. We'll be back. We'll be back.

• 1:11:18Speaker 08

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit "Remind Me" on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

• 1:11:52Speaker 09

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• 1:12:20Speaker 06

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• 1:12:50Speaker 10

  Network freedom and flexibility, that's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.