Part Four: The Zizian Murder Spree (or Exactly How Harry Potter Fanfic Killed A Border Patrol Agent)

Robert concludes the story of the Zizians with a spree of horrific violent crimes and deaths, culminating in a shoot out with the Border Patrol in Vermont of all places. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  We're back. Oh my gosh, it's Behind the Bastards, a podcast where Robert Evans ruined his life by reading too many blogs by internet poisoned nerd rationalist people and I deeply regret everything I've done. How are you doing, David?

• 0:22Speaker 01

  I'm good. I am, I am concerned for you. This is a difficult place for you to spend a week.

• 0:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I've had an, this is an info hazard. They're not wrong to use that term, just not in the way they mean it.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. This whole...

• 0:38Robert Evans?

  Like, I, I, I've half, I'm half committed to like selling my house, putting my goats into like a big trailer and traveling around the country, finding people who are going on online doom loops and like handing them a goat and just like, play with this goat for 20 minutes. Like, touch it, touch an animal, look into its weird little eyes, get off of your phone.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  That's real. You need to go do goat yoga.

• 1:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:03Robert Evans?

  Something has to be done.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Oh my god, yeah. This is, it's so wild. It's so wild.

• 1:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Again, folks, if you want to immunize your stuff to this, a great way to do it is to just like have friends who don't live in a boat with you. Right?

• 1:21Speaker 02

  A very, very small boat.

• 1:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Barely a boat.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Even a big boat.

• 1:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Let alone barely a boat.

• 1:30Robert Evans?

  And talk to like, you know, my neighbor's, my neighbor's like a Mexican dude who loves gardening and has had a completely different life than me and knows nothing of the internet. And I talk with him a couple of times a week and it's always one of the best things for me because I spend so much of the rest of my time with people like Garrison who are all like, poison their brains with the same things I've poisoned my brain with. Like, please go find people who don't know all of the weird internet things you do and spend more time with them.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Aggressive on the people like Garrison.

• 2:03Robert Evans?

  Look, I love Garrison, but they also have started spending a lot of their time with people who aren't in the same weird internet doom circles that we are and it's been good for them. It's good for everyone.

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Truly.

• 2:15Robert Evans?

  Save yourselves. Save yourselves.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  It doesn't have to be like this.

• 2:22Speaker 03

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• 2:25Speaker 03

  Guaranteed Human.

• 2:27Robert Evans?

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• 3:36Robert Evans?

  So, when we left off, Ziz had kind of psychologically jailbroken her friend into suicide and then created an info hazard named after her friend.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:48Robert Evans?

  Great stuff, healthy community. Now, a few things happen in quick succession after this point. The rationalists start to blame Passick suicide on Ziz, and this is really when a lot of folks in rationalist circles start breaking off and calling, like, saying like, hey, this is, what Ziz and Gwynn are doing, they've made like a cult, right? And again, I don't think they're really off-base here, but also, they tend to ignore all of the suicides in the rationalist community, right?

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, they are in a cult.

• 4:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah. You know, it's more, because cult is, I think, like, you get, like, they're in a, there's a cultic milieu that rationalism forms, which is like the substrate, right? You know, if a cult is like a plant growing up from it, like, rationalism is this soil that is extremely optimized for growing cults. I think that might be closer, you know? Although, it's also one of those things where if you're just trying to explain a story, you could just say it's a cult. You can say it's this weird Bay Area cult about science and AI and shit. Like, that's probably close enough. Yeah.

• 4:51Robert Evans?

  A few things happen in quick succession after this point. One is that a story broke later in 2018 confirming Ziz's suspicion that the rationalism, rationalist community was rife with abuse. Two people accused an influential rationalist who worked at Seafar, a guy named Brent Dill, of abuse while they were dating him. Both were 19 and he was close to 40. The allegations here remind me a little of the ones against Neil Gaiman. You've got a very powerful man accused of coercing much younger women into extreme BDSM situations and plying them with drugs. Obviously, none of this is, I don't think any of this has been litigated, so I, I, I will continue to refer to them as allegations. I don't know exactly what happened here, but this breaks, right? And it's a big deal within the community.

• 5:32Robert Evans?

  Rumors spread that Seafar had kind of tried to like hush the whole mess down in order to protect this guy. They conducted an internal investigation. We all know, like when the cops do an internal investigation, right? That's always reliable.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  No, trust us to figure it out.

• 5:49Robert Evans?

  We'll police ourselves. That's rational.

• 5:54Robert Evans?

  This internal investigation exonerated Dill and included the line, "He is aligned with Seafar's goals and strategy and should be seen as an ally who embodies a rare kind of agency and a sense of heroic responsibility." There's those words again. Agency, heroic responsibility, dating a 19-year-old when you're 40 and giving her drugs.

• 6:17Robert Evans?

  Good stuff. People respond with outrage. Seafar eventually, eventually banned Dill from future events. They kind of cave. And Ziz would describe Dill later as a true negative. That's someone who both half of, halves of their brain are evil.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Double bad.

• 6:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, double bad. Now, at this point, she still thought Yudkowski and some other Seafar leaders might be double good, but she's really not sure about it. And she's especially not sure because none of them like embrace this terminology.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, at this point, has Yudkowski, is he like? Is she still, are they on good terms? Is he still acknowledging? No.

• 6:51Robert Evans?

  I don't think she's ever on close terms with Yankowski. She is, she is speaking and communicating directly with Anna Salomon, who is like one of Yankowski's like top people quite a lot. I don't think she's super close to Yankowski. Like, I'm sure they're at the same events and stuff several times. And she sees, she definitely like sees him speak. She definitely talks with him. But like, I don't think that they would ever have been close, right?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:15Robert Evans?

  She does try to force a conversation with Anna Salomon outside of Seafar HQ about this and other discoveries she and Gwyn had made on their boats. And Ziz like writes in the blog post about it that like she felt it was going pretty good and Anna was listening to her. There are context clues that I don't think Ziz picks up on that like, oh no, Anna immediately felt uncomfortable and like you were assaulting her, like coming up to her and just like kind of barraging her with all of this nonsense. And she did not want to have this conversation. And she kind of pretended to be, agree with you in order to, in this, because she's not sure if you're dangerous, which, to be fair, you are.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:55Robert Evans?

  Soon later, at a Seafar board meeting, Anna recommended that Ziz be disinvited from joint Meery Seafar events. And both of these are separate organizations, but basically that like the, the membership overlaps or like a circle, right? Her reasoning for not wanting Ziz at events is that Ziz wore, quote, "black clothes, took supervillains as role models and came up with dangerous plans."

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah. More or less correct.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Pretty much, I forgot that she was also wearing black robes.

• 8:21Robert Evans?

  She's also started dressing like a wizard, yes.

• 8:29Robert Evans?

  Speaking of dangerous plans, the Rationalist Fleet, or Rat Fleet, was falling apart by this point. Coast Guard and San Mateo Harbor District Authorities had issued numerous warnings over the danger of this tugboat leaking poison into the bay. On several occasion, the Caleb nearly hit other ships while drifting, like the anchor gets fucked up. I don't know that they, they probably don't know how to use it, because like they're...

• 8:50Speaker 01

  But maybe got, he let, is he still involved?

• 8:53Robert Evans?

  He's gone. He is, he's bounced. He, he had at least the judgment to cut his law.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  So they don't even know how to work boats?

• 9:00Robert Evans?

  They do. Gwen is, I think Gwen's actually reasonably competent with a sailboat.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Gwen had the sailboat.

• 9:05Robert Evans?

  Right. And she and and and Ziz gets trained up and these are both smart enough people that I suspect they're competent with a sailboat. But like a 24 foot sailboat and a 94 foot tugboat. Very different. That's like, I'm good with driving my Prius. Give me that fucking 18 wheeler with two with two fucking storage containers on the back, shipping containers on the back. I could, I could probably back that thing into a parking space. No problem.

• 9:31Robert Evans?

  They're just different, you know?

• 9:34Robert Evans?

  Authorities, right. And what's very funny, all these accounts of like boat cops getting on the Caleb and talking to Zizians. They're like, these people must be sovereign citizens, which is like a totally different kind of thing. And to me, I'm like, they don't sound at all like, but to them, it like this mix, because it's this mix of anarchist theory, right? Because these people are anarchists and they're telling these cops why they don't think the cops have any authority. But they're also like insulting them with these like logical arguments based on obscure rationalist doctrines. And these cops.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Heavy jargon.

• 10:06Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Heavy, heavy jargon.

• 10:09Robert Evans?

  These cops are just like, okay, so we got some sovereign, some sob sits here. All right.

• 10:14Robert Evans?

  They're on a boat.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  It's a 284. Now we know what to do.

• 10:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And again, this is like the Bay Area. I think cops in the Bay Area are a little, especially since they're all white, more used to dealing with like, people who are clearly like eccentric, right? Then maybe like if this had happened in another city. So nothing, there's not really a conflict yet. The cops are just being like, hey, guys, you're this. But and to be fair, the boat is leaking diesel into the bay. Like, see it as a problem, right?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  That's a net negative.

• 10:44Robert Evans?

  In 2019, another scandal hits the rationalist community. The story broke that a former employee had blackmailed the company over a dispute and used donor funds to pay. This got stacked on top of the scandal that Dill had just created. And as Ziz and many of her comrades saw it, the issue was not whether this employee had been mistreated, but that Miri hadn't made the proper timeless decisions to ensure they. Couldn't be blackmailed. Per an article for the Rolling Stone, quote, "In their view, this not only represented bad decision theory, but called the organization's entire existence into question." In other words, it's not whatever happened with this employee. It's that you didn't make the timeless decisions to make it so that anyone would be scared to try to blackmail you because they'd know that your response was so, would be so intense.

• 11:28Robert Evans?

  That proves you don't have what it takes to really save the world because you're not ruthless enough to just jump to killing people like us.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  You're not a psychopath.

• 11:34Robert Evans?

  You're not fucking psychopath, right?

• 11:36Speaker 01

  We need psychopaths.

• 11:37Robert Evans?

  Which is good.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  To save the world.

• 11:39Robert Evans?

  We love psychopaths.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  We're all, we aspire to it.

• 11:44Robert Evans?

  And one of the big problems within the rationalist community is people talk about different mental health conditions as if they're like tools in a toolbox. Like you could go into a psychopathic mode and that's really good for accomplishing these things. So you could, you could go ADHD, you can make yourself autistic in this, they talk this way, right? I'm not saying this is, this is not how anything works. I'm not comparing autism and psychopathy. I'm just saying this is how they talk, right?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they go sicko mode and then save the world.

• 12:10Robert Evans?

  Right. And I was like, no, that's, that's not, none of this is accurate to like the way brains are. Like that's just not how anything works.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  You can't just be like, I'm going to turn off my autism today. I got some shit to do.

• 12:22Robert Evans?

  No, that's not how it works. And some of this is downstream from how I think online discourse has damaged the discussion of mental health because people sometimes do talk about it like Pokemon, you know?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 12:34Robert Evans?

  Like, I, I think there's some issues there that, that do, anyway, and, and a lot of this is, yeah, it, it's just, this soup is not exclusive to Ziz. So Ziz is banned now from Miri Seafar events and her whole crew is increasingly radicalized against the organizations. They have also, you know, it's both where like Seafar has good reason to not want Ziz around, but also all of Ziz, most of Ziz's complaints about rationalists like Seafar and Miri are very valid, right? Like, yeah, yeah, you're both right about each other. It's like how Elon Musk and Peter Thiel would shit talk each other. It's like, you both do have each other's number. Yes.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Everybody's got a point. Everybody's got a point.

• 13:18Robert Evans?

  I just kind of wish you would all go away.

• 13:23Robert Evans?

  In November of 2019, Seafar held their annual alumni reunion out in a chunk of the California redwoods down the street from the Bohemian Grove. The road that passes is literally the Bohemian Highway, right? This is like, for an idea of how much money there is in mainstream rationalism, right? They are having their big party next to Bohemian Grove. Ziz had sent an open letter, like a letter to Yedkowski a few days earlier urging members of both organizations to quit in the interest of saving the world, basically saying, "These groups are in so compromised, they can no longer like add effectively to the things we're trying to do to our important work. So you should all leave," and kind of the subtext is, "And do what me and Gwynn are doing," you know? Start a cult.

• 14:07Robert Evans?

  So on the day of this event, Ziz, Gwynn, and two others in their circle drive up to this like, this location out in the woods with a box truck, a shuttle bus, and a Prius, and they block the entrances and exits of the venue with their vehicles. And they jump out wearing black robes, Guy Fawkes masks, and black gloves. Now, this is not a violent protest. There's no evidence that they intended violence. They had walkie-talkies. One person had a can of mace, but like, you know, people carry mace, that's not suspicious. And all they're trying to do is distribute flyers, lying out their case against Seafar and Miri, but they have blocked the entrances and exits, and they talk like Sith wizards, right? So everything they say sounds cryptic and kind of threatening?

• 14:52Robert Evans?

  And they're wearing black robes. And they're wearing, and Guy Fawkes masks. The police get called immediately, and as best as I can tell, it does, maybe I'm wrong, it seems like the Seafar Miri people like knew, because there's like sent out an email saying, "Hey, maybe don't come," or like, "If you do, just like be note that these weird people are here." But the venue owner, like the people running the venue, call the cops, is what it seems like happens. There are different allegations here, I don't precisely know, but for whatever, whatever the case, two false pieces of information are given to the cops when they get called. They are told, the cops are told, one person has a gun and another person has an axe, right? So, and I think it's people who worked at the venue who make these allegations.

• 15:35Robert Evans?

  It was definitely an employee at the venue who alleged that he saw an axe. A county sheriff who responded, or sorry, it was a person at the venue who picked up an axe and someone saw them and reported that to the police too, right? Because he was scared of these people. A county sheriff, sheriff's deputy responds and immediately calls for major backup because he's told someone has a gun. And, you know, as a cop with just kind of like a pop culture knowledge, you hear like a bunch of people in robes and masks with a gun outside of this big event where like there's children doing a robes course next door. Like, his thought is, there's a mass shooting brewing, right? Some people are gonna do something fucked up, right? So, he calls for a massive, like, SWAT response, basically, you know, compared to the actual

• 16:20Robert Evans?

  danger these people present, which is right now nil. The author of that Wired piece spoke to the sheriff's deputy who responded initially, a guy named Parks, and this is that account, quote, "In Parks's account, which he relayed to me in the fall of 2023 at a local Starbucks, the protesters were speaking in unison. Just stuff I didn't really understand, but it was somewhat rehearsed," he said. "The group had printed flyers outlining their complaints against Sefar and Miri. They alleged that Miri had paid out blackmail using donor funds to quash sexual misconduct allegations, and that Sefar's leader discriminates against trans women. Other allegations were more esoteric. Sefar does not appreciably develop novel rationality mental tech. The path to avoiding extinction," they wrote, "involved escaping containment by society

• 17:03Robert Evans?

  through mental autonomy and interhemispheric game theory." So, some random sheriff's deputy is not going to understand what's going on here. What the fuck are you talking about? He and his men default to the thing that cops do when they get confused, which is they get violent, right? Quote, "He and Ricks ordered the protesters to get on the ground. As they did, each one called out, demanding a same-gender pat-down, like one might request at an airport. All three were trans women, but Parks says he couldn't discern their genders because of the robes and masks. Regardless, they were not going to get that luxury at that time, he told me. It's like, well, we don't know if you're a boy or a girl, and we gotta handcuff you."

• 17:46Robert Evans?

  Parks's deputy subdued the three in prone positions, what Parks calls a "high-risk style takedown, requiring more force than a normal handcuffing style."

• 17:55Robert Evans?

  So there's a, several articles I've read will refer to a discrepancy between how the Zizians and the cops describe these events. I've read both accounts. I really don't see a gap. What I see is the cops describing their violent and dehumanizing behavior as like, this is the normal way to respond, and the Zizians describing it as dehumanizing and traumatizing. The only question here is like, the moral quality you give to the cops tackling a bunch of people, basically, who don't have weapons because they got a phone call, right? Which like, if you're a cop, you're like, well, this is the only way to act. And if you're, I think, most people, like, you're like, well, probably could have just talked this situation down. I don't see where an arrest would, like, yeah. Gwyn later writes this about the experience. "When we arrived, a staff member called the police and falsely told them we had a gun and that we were going into buildings, and

• 18:40Robert Evans?

  that we were too afraid to get off the, they were too afraid to get off the phone. Later reports said there was an active shooter with a duffel bag. None of us had a duffel bag. Police arrived with their guns out and we were immediately arrested within about 10 minutes of us arriving, after which we were sexually assaulted. In my case, I was groped and I had my pants pulled down and then sat on by an officer in a mounting position." They are mocked and derided, like, as they're naked, cops are making comments about their bodies. It's, it's like a really, like, ugly situation, right? And I have no trouble believing that this is true, because it comports with dozens of arrest stories I've heard in multiple states.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's par for the course.

• 19:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And it's also the fact that they are specifically, the police are making fun of them for being trans, is very much in line with what statistics say about trans people and police violence. A 2013 report from the Anti-Violence Project found that trans individuals are seven times likelier to experience violence while interacting with the police than cisgender people. So I have no trouble believing Gwyn's accounts here, even though, again, I treat her with proper scrutiny in most areas. This all seems like what cops do. Now, the other big discrepancy, where the Zizians are, I think, a little off-base, is that they claim they are immediately deadnamed and misgendered by the newspapers covering their initial arrests. And they are deadnamed, but the newspapers don't really have an option here.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Right, it's like, their legal names.

• 20:03Robert Evans?

  Right, the police, they don't- Talk when they're arrested, right? Which is a very normal thing for like a protest. They say absolutely nothing and they have no ID on them. So the police fingerprint them, which brings up their legal names. And that's what's given to the newspapers. So like the initial news articles aren't trying, this is just the only name available. But it escalates this situation, right? And it is worth noting that a number of outlets do continue to deadname them up to the present. But that initial reporting, it's like, well, that's just the only information that was available. But all of this is going to like, this is this court case is going to where on? They get charged initially with felonies. Bail is set at like 50 grand for Ziz and Gwyn. This is eventually reduced and they're reduced to misdemeanors.

• 20:47Robert Evans?

  But it takes like four days for them to make bail. And there's, they will be fighting because they're going to countersue over these arrests. And both the, the trauma of the arrests, their anger over them. And the fact that there's the stress of this years long court battle is going to have this extremely deleterious effect on everybody's mental health when they're already not doing well. Right around, it's great stuff.

• 21:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Robert Evans?

  Right around this time, the rash, the Zizians move, they, they stopped doing their fleet thing, right? They move out of the boats and they, they kind of end things by leaving their tugboat adrift. Because there's nothing to do with a 94 foot tugboat. Nobody can handle a tugboat, right? Like it's too big to do much with. And they, they probably could have figured something out, but they decide the opportunity cost of figuring out how to dispose of this boat is it will, it will distract from their important work. So it's okay for it to sink and cause like a modest environmental crisis by leaking diesel into the bay.

• 21:45Robert Evans?

  Basically, Ziz decides that the value of all the sea life that it kills is less than the value of them continuing their work. Which at this point, if you're keeping track, is trying to figure out how to live out of box trucks. So that's what they're doing now. And this is where a guy named Curtis. They got a worse living space. They've got a worse living space. They made it worse than boats.

• 22:09Robert Evans?

  Oh, boy. I can't tell you how much of this story is just the result of Bay Area rent prices being unreasonable. Truly a real estate story. It's a real, just like Superman one.

• 22:24Robert Evans?

  So, enter Curtis Lind. Lind is a guy, he was like a, he made his career doing shipping. He lived in a boat in and around where Ziz and her friends were living at sea and they met each other through that. He like sells them an anchor. But he's also like pushing 80. And so he's got, he's interested in like getting out of the boat life because it sucks. And he's got a plot of land that he, he's, he's got a house on and he's got extra space that he's interested in renting out. There's not like most, there's not like full houses, but there's like some shipping containers and I think like some RV, like a busted RV or whatever. And he's got like some power and water hookups. Here's how his son Carl described what his father wanted to do with this place. He just wanted this as a place to let artists or woodworkers, electricians to be able to come and live

• 23:08Robert Evans?

  in a little trailer and have a container where they could work and put their tools and have a safe place. So again, depending on how you're looking, he's either trying to like have a cheap space where like, you know, artists and the like can afford to like survive and have little working spaces, or he's trying to be like a punk slumlord, right?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  And I mean, the line is thin, right?

• 23:28Robert Evans?

  The line is thin, right?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  The line is so thin.

• 23:32Robert Evans?

  Speaking of a thin line, the sponsors of this podcast are the thin line keeping society safe from me not having enough money to live in a boat, you know? Or this is why I have enough money to live in a boat where I would go crazy.

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• 24:21Speaker 01

  Or a box truck.

• 24:23Robert Evans?

  Or a box truck. Ah, to live in a box truck. The joy.

• 24:27Speaker 01

  The glory days.

• 24:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we're back. We're talking about how good it is to live in a box truck.

• 24:37Robert Evans?

  Good stuff. Do we know roughly how big the group is at this point? I think at any given time, there's between like six and nine people, you know? Okay, okay, so very small, very small. Very small, somewhere in that neighborhood, it fluctuates. And there's also, there's a bunch of people who are like, you could call them Zizians. They're in and out, they'll visit sometimes, you know, or they even live in other states, but they're always in contact with multiple members of the group through the internet. This is a very like geographically decentralized group, although there is that like core inner circle who are all together on this land. And for a while, things are okay there. The Zizians pay rent. Ziz continues to write blog posts and run her followers through uni-hemispheric sleep sessions to upgrade them.

• 25:20Robert Evans?

  And, you know, again, it's also important for me to note, they don't ever call themselves Zizians. That name first comes up around this period of time, right after that disastrous protest, when an anonymous rationalist publishes a paper called like zizians.info that first identifies them as a cult and describes like their uni-hemispheric sleep tactics. And it's, it's written because this person is in the community and wants to stop other people from falling in with Ziz. And I think they have good intentions here, they like see the danger. They also, one of the issues with the document is I don't think they see some of the danger of other rationalist stuff. Yeah, right. This is like, why I say that it's like a cultic substrate rather than being a pure

• 26:02Robert Evans?

  cult, because there are people in it who can recognize stuff like this and try to, you know, provide a degree of like accountability. Just like there are people who will like report on and they held, they hold seafar speak to the fire when people get accused of abuse. So the document alleges that Ziz had started telling her followers she was the, basically she's the only double good or intrinsically good person there and one of the only intrinsically good people on the planet. UHS sessions tended to reveal that other people in the community are just single good. And per Ziz's theories about the hero contract, they can only accomplish maximum good by feeding their energy and resources to the hero Ziz. Here's an example of the kind of things she sent people she saw as single good. Saying you're single good is saying, "Help, I have a yerk in my head."

• 26:47Robert Evans?

  Did you ever read Animorphs as a book, David?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Wow, yes.

• 26:50Robert Evans?

  As a kid?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  They were great.

• 26:51Robert Evans?

  That's what that's a reference to is those worms that control your brain and that's it's another fidget. Right, yeah, yeah, that's, yes. I know, deep cut, deep cut.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Whoa, that unlocked a part of my brain that I have not used in for, that's right.

• 27:06Robert Evans?

  A bunch of people are now like, having like the severance moment, but like remembering every scholastic book fair they ever went to as a kid.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Oh, man, all they gotta do is hit goosebumps and they.

• 27:18Robert Evans?

  I know, I know, oh, only. So, saying you're single good is saying, "Help, I have a yerk in my head that's a mere image of me. I need you to surgically destroy it, even if I'm then crippled for life or might die in the process. Then kill me if I ever do one evil act for the rest of my life. That's better than being a slave." Again, that's her role, is surgically destroying the evil brains of her, half-brains of her followers, and then she has to be willing to murder them if they ever do anything bad. Because if they ever do anything bad, then it means that the evil side could take over and it could do like mega bad.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:53Robert Evans?

  And doom the world, right?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  So she, and she takes this on herself?

• 27:57Robert Evans?

  Yes, and also, I mean, she's gonna have other people do the killing, basically. But like, yes, this is what she's saying is the stakes and this is how she sees her role within the community, right? And I think at this point, that's pretty cult leader. That's pretty cult leader.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think you crossed over.

• 28:12Robert Evans?

  I think we've probably crossed that KT boundary, right? Yeah?

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Box trucks, saying you gotta kill some people.

• 28:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah, saying you gotta murder people because they're the devil, the yerk inside their brain, yeah. Might be a little bit of cult weather. Hmm, feels like a cult outside. So, some Zizians, not implicated in any crimes, have attacked this piece, this zizians.info thing as being inaccurate and basically a rationalist hit job. And again, there's some reason for suspicion here, but most of the claims made in it, I have backed up through reading the individual, like, sources. One of the issues is that a lot, a lot of people writing about this will credit Ziz with all of the unihemispheric stuff, and that's mostly Gwyn. So there's a point worth making. Around this time, a woman named Jamie Zajko. Started living nearby with her girlfriend Alice Monday.

• 29:02Robert Evans?

  Both are rationalists that are interested in Ziz's ideas. Alice and Ziz have been in contact for years. And in fact, Alice, because she's an older, more established rationalist. When Ziz was kind of new to the community, had sent Ziz an article on the Gervais principle for the first time, which had spawned her ideas about needing to jailbreak people into psychopathy. And at varying times, Ziz would claim Alice as a mentor. There are some, I don't, like, very vague accounts that Alice has done some problematic abusive stuff in the community. I don't know what Trinia that is, but this is what people talk about. And I think Ziz may have had a break with her over some sort of disagreement.

• 29:40Robert Evans?

  Because it seems like, from what I can tell, Jamie, who is dating Alice at the time, is in direct contact with Ziz and interested in her, but also is not communicating with Ziz under her real name. She is making a bunch of sock puppet accounts on her blog. And she is specifically commenting and trying to engage Ziz in different conversations, pretending to be multiple different people to quote unquote sabotage the hold she believed another woman in the community, Emma Borhanian, had on Ziz. And Borhanian is that former Google engineer.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:14Robert Evans?

  So this is, you know, this is part of the messy thing is that like, these people are all influencing each other and trying to like, their kind of go to is like mind games to fuck with each other's heads.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, not a lot of straight conversation, huh?

• 30:30Robert Evans?

  No. Now, Emma Borhanian, who Jamie alleges has like-

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Jamie's girlfriend.

• 30:36Robert Evans?

  No, Jamie's dating Alice Monday.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 30:39Robert Evans?

  Borhanian is this former Google engineer who's been with Ziz since the rationalist fleet days. And Jamie thinks that she's controlling Ziz. And she has like this bad influence that's leading them in a bad direction. And I've read Borhanian's blog too, because of course I had to. Emma is, she was as long-winded as Ziz, fewer pop culture references. She wrote a lot about narcissism. But unlike most of these people, she tended to like use a, or she's like, I don't know. I don't understand the kind of point she's trying to make about narcissists, but she's very interested in the idea of like how narcissists work. Jamie didn't like Emma, and she claims that because Emma and another member of the community had started shit talking Alice to Ziz and convinced her that Alice was double evil.

• 31:25Robert Evans?

  So Jamie creates all these sock puppet accounts to argue with Ziz with the goal of fucking with her head and making her distrust Emma. Quote, "I adopted a variety of different personas, many of whom claim to have beliefs I've never held or endorsed for the sake of determining how Ziz would react to these characters." So, this isn't-

• 31:42Speaker 01

  And then what?

• 31:42Robert Evans?

  And then what? Yes, exactly. There's never seems to be a plan behind fuck with each other's mental health constantly.

• 31:50Robert Evans?

  It's like, this is, because there are always, there's all these overlapping fields of influence between all of these mostly women, and everyone is fucking with each other's heads deliberately, and also constantly trying to hack and upgrade each other. It's basically Scientology in the form of a codependent friend group, right? Like, that's what, that's what's happening here.

• 32:10Robert Evans?

  This is so bad for everybody.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  It's, oh man, it just, they just dig deeper and deeper and deeper.

• 32:16Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, that's what happens, again, if you don't, this is the, you know, the touch grasp has been turned online, people have some, as you said, some problematic ways of discussing it, but this is the importance of like, turning out from your weird little subculture every now and again, and like-

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely. Because at this point, how often are they interacting with the world, like, in general?

• 32:39Robert Evans?

  Very rarely, and most of the people they do interact with are like these other people who are kind of on the edge of dropping out of society, living on this guy's property? This 80-year-old man's property and like box trucks?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  The guy who wants to-

• 32:53Robert Evans?

  Those are their normies. Yeah.

• 32:58Robert Evans?

  So, while Jamie and Ziz are fighting online, COVID hit, and with it comes that eviction moratorium in the state of California. So Ziz and, and her friends, they stop paying rent to, to, to Lind. Either because they're broke, or just because they don't need to anymore. And more than a year goes by. In April of 2021, Ziz posts this to her blog. "Housing in places like the Bay Area is a hierarchy of rent seekers, and the rent seekers above landlords rule by rule surplus, selective enforcement, fear, uncertainty, and doubt corruption. It's all a complex, and it makes landlords incredibly vulnerable to blackmail from someone who can do even a little bit of investigative work. It's bad praxis to pay them rent." So, again,

• 33:39Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 33:40Robert Evans?

  I get it. But this is also gonna lead you to a bad place.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:45Robert Evans?

  This is where we get to divergent stories. Curtis Lind, the landlord's story, is that he was very supportive of these people, and of trans people in general, taking one Zizian out to shop for her first bra. His friends and family say he was a decent guy, and I actually, when I started talking about writing these episodes on Blue Sky, someone chimed in to say they had known him too, and that he was a nice person. I don't know. To Ziz, he was a landlord, and there are claims from the Zizians that he was verbally abusive and transphobic. By the end of 2021, after a year and a half of unpaid rent, Lind had started working on the process of having police evict them. He and other residents claimed that the Zizians had become aggressive, acting as if the property was theirs now, threatening other people, basically squatting on it, and like, being

• 34:29Robert Evans?

  violent at times, including like, throwing rocks at Lind's cabin and brandishing knives at other people. So, there are allegations-

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Brandishing knives!

• 34:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, they have taken to like, threateningly playing with knives while talking about how they will not leave the property or pay rent. And you get the feeling like, I'm not, again, I'm not, I'm not against the idea that this, again, ambitious slumlord may have done some problematic things, but it sounds like the Zizians are being pretty deeply abusive to everyone around them.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 34:59Robert Evans?

  Which is also, they believe is praxis, is like, these other people who are not, who don't, who aren't double good, and who aren't aware of the great work, they're not working towards the cause, they're a causal, is the term they're use. Their lives don't really have value. If you're not working for the cause, Ziz earlier will decide-

• 35:16Speaker 01

  It's not like they're doing outreach, right? It's not like they're trying to convert their neighbors or anything like that.

• 35:21Robert Evans?

  They're trying to convert rationalists, but they don't care about these weirdos living on the property with them, right?

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:26Robert Evans?

  And, and again, remember, like, Ziz had earlier decided that it would be worth four human lives for her to, like, get a, she would kill four people to get a shower before work, right? Basically-

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Oh, with the ants, yes.

• 35:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so these people don't have a lot of value for other people, right? Now, the court case over the protest arrests dragged on, and in November of 2021- Ziz and her friends who'd been arrested filed a countersuit against Sonoma County, as well as several individuals associated with Seafar and the venue. By the time 2022 starts, the pressure is on for Ziz and the people living with her to figure out what they're going to do next. They do at some point work out a deal with Curtis, who'll give them a little more time to fix their RV if they promise to bounce as soon as possible. Ziz is no longer actively adding to her blog, but she's still responding to comments and communicating with other sympathetic rationalists regularly. She becomes much more focused, in her writing in this period, on vengeance, violence, and death, as do others in her community.

• 36:22Robert Evans?

  Per Wired, quote, "Lasoda and others wrote of vengeance against the timeless decisions of others. If you truly irreconcilably disagree with someone's creative choice, i.e. their choice extending arbitrarily far into the past and future, ultimately your only recourse is to kill them," one Lasoda ally wrote in a long blog post citing Ziz's philosophies. In the comments, Lasoda wrote, "I am so fucking glad to finally have an equal." Damn. Great stuff. Damn. In spring of 2021, one of the rationalist fleet veterans close to Ziz, Jay Winterford, who went by the name Fluttershy, killed themselves. They had, Winterford had written about seeing Ziz's techniques as a way to deal with his

• 37:06Robert Evans?

  childhood trauma, and Lasoda wrote on her blog about her repeated attempts to fix and upgrade him. Now, Ziz wrote about this person and calls him a death knight. And as best as I can tell, a death knight is a Zizian term for someone who snaps and murders a bunch of people. She calls Hitler a death knight, but she also uses the term for mass shooters. And she claims Winterford, quote, "tried very hard to convince me, and then us, to join them in service of the goddess of rape and death. Straight up declared intentions to kill us, did a bunch of horrible shit, like said they were going to do even more horrible shit. I spent about seven months, most of every day, in a desperate and mutual mental battle, trying to get in their head, somehow understand this death drive thing I couldn't simulate in my own mind that made no sense, and outpredict them, like all their lives in the world depended on it."

• 37:51Robert Evans?

  And basically, this person's talking about doing like a mass shooting, or some other terrorist attack, against the rationalist community in Ziz's neck. And Ziz claims that she's like spent seven months trying to stop them from doing this. Uh, and then finally they just kill themselves rather than killing anybody else. And again, they frame Ziz frames as like their heroic battle to stop this person from murdering other people and damaging the cause. But like, I don't know, maybe, maybe like this person needed professional help when they started talking about wanting to do a mass killing. When it's wanting to murder a bunch of people, maybe they needed help, like not your help.

• 38:28Robert Evans?

  I don't know if anyone needs Ziz's help. No, no, Ziz does not even need Ziz's help. No. And she weaves this person's death into this very, this messianic hero's journey for herself, posting this in the summer of 2022. Since posting this, I have been tortured, survived seven assassination attempts, three more attempts to do me permanent bodily harm, four people individually decided they had the sole rights to be my death love arch nemesis, as if they'd be alone, accidentally exposed myself to a hunt, one one hundredth of my hell and one committed suicide, others utterly mentally cracked. No one knows what she's talking about with these assassination tips or anything. This is all just. Someone may have given her a mean look at a grocery store and she decided, right? Like that's the mindset she's in. Right?

• 39:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Rationalists who had declared Ziz a cult leader considered all of this further evidence that she was dangerous. Um, again, rationalists also convince people to kill themselves be a logic traps, but like they're, they're not wrong to point this out. Now, I brought up Jamie Zashco and Alice Monday a little earlier. Um, they had moved out of the Bay in late 2020 and headed to Vermont, where Jamie, who had some family money, bought land and a gun. Uh, in February of 2022, she made a blog post with the subtitle, I trolled Ziz and now she wants to murder me. In it, she claims she talks about how like, yeah, she made all these fake accounts and in late 2021, she and Ziz finally start talking under their real names and Ziz talks about these trolling messages from the fake

• 39:57Robert Evans?

  accounts Jamie had made and like said that they really fucked with her head. And so Jamie, who's starting to view Ziz as a friend, comes out and admits what she did and Ziz responds. By saying the only way you can make this right is to murder your like girlfriend, ex-girlfriend, it's a little unclear, Alice Monday, my old mentor. Like you have to kill this person for me in order to make this right.

• 40:19Robert Evans?

  Here's what Jamie writes. During her last phone call, Ziz informed me that the only way I could gain her trust and make up for what I did was to murder Alice, preferably sometime soon. Ziz helpfully suggested I use a gun with a potato as a makeshift suppressor, and that I might destroy the body with lie. And then told me that after I should video call Ziz and show her the body before I destroy it, so she could get proof positive that I'd really done it. And if I didn't do it, Ziz planned to drive across the entire continental United States to murder me.

• 40:49Robert Evans?

  Great.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  The die is cast.

• 40:52Robert Evans?

  The die is cast. Now.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Shit.

• 40:55Robert Evans?

  Jamie says that Ziz wants Alice dead because she thinks Alice is a mentor, and she's got this whole Sith thing going on. So she's like, guess what, the Sith always kill their mentors. So I have to kill Alice, or I can't get powerful enough to save the world. Great.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 41:12Robert Evans?

  I love philosophy.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Story that has escalated so crazy. It is wild to hear it where it's like, okay, this is where, this is where it starts, the wheels start to really fall off.

• 41:22Robert Evans?

  This is where that border patrol officer's death becomes inevitable.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Because now you feel like Ziz has backed herself into a corner where someone's going to die.

• 41:31Robert Evans?

  Yes, someone like.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Talking about it, you're threatening it seriously, you're telling it like, at this point, right? Is someone, this is gonna happen.

• 41:39Robert Evans?

  At this point, if no outside power comes in to disrupt these thought chains and decision chains, someone is going to die, and no one does come in, right? And several people die.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I mean, how could someone rationally even?

• 41:54Robert Evans?

  How could you?

• 41:55Speaker 01

  I was saying rational. How could, how could someone even get there?

• 41:59Robert Evans?

  Because you think about like.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  It's so insular.

• 42:01Robert Evans?

  You think about something like 5150, this, this Fluttershy person, right? Or 5050 Ziz, does that make it better? Probably not, probably just makes them even more paranoid and angry and convinced to do violence.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  It becomes the 11th assassination attempt.

• 42:17Robert Evans?

  I don't know how you fix this at this point.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  No, no, it's, it's, it's, it might be, I think it might be too far gone.

• 42:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah, there's, there's, I'm sure there's some possible way that this could have been fixed, but it's not clear to me.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  And who, who would be the person?

• 42:33Robert Evans?

  Who does it? Right?

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Who would be the person to do it?

• 42:36Robert Evans?

  Maybe get George Lucas in there. George?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh my God, that's so.

• 42:40Robert Evans?

  Some ladies have taken your movies way too seriously. We need you to fly out and talk them out of committing murders.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  This is gonna sound crazy. There's a bunch of people in a box truck wanting to kill in your name.

• 42:52Robert Evans?

  Or Ricky Gervais. Yeah, Ricky Gervais. Get Ricky Gervais and George Lucas on a fucking chopper. Get him in here on a Blackhawk. They gotta talk these people down.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Oh shit.

• 43:06Robert Evans?

  Oh fuck.

• 43:09Robert Evans?

  Oh man, it's so funny. Just a week later, George Lucas is completely in the cult. He's wearing all black. He's living in a box truck. Oh no, oh no.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  So he's writing, it's not even fanfiction. He's writing canonical Star Wars.

• 43:26Robert Evans?

  He's writing canonical Star Wars stuff.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  Canonical original Star Wars.

• 43:32Robert Evans?

  Ponder that. And ponder these ads, my friends. We'll be back with more.

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• 44:12Robert Evans?

  So we're back. Now, Jamie is one of the few people who is like as good at manipulating Ziz as Ziz is at other people in this community. High mana. And after Ziz is like, hey, look, very high mana. Ziz is like, look, I'll have to kill you if you don't kill Alice, you know, and you know, I'll do it because it's a timeless decision. Jamie counters in a very effective way by saying like, making a blog post saying, Ziz said all this. I am not suicidal. If I die, it's her. And also letting Ziz know, quote, I have friends who will avenge me. Murdering Alice or me now is tantamount to committing suicide by proxy. So they have this like checkmate, counter checkmate chess match in blog posts that gets interrupted in March when Gwyn fakes her death, probably

• 44:57Robert Evans?

  to escape the litigation they're all about. Honestly? Oh, yeah. Gwyn, get out of here. Gwyn does make the good decision because sometime after faking her death, she bounces from this whole community. She does get out of there.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  There was just no way this story was gonna end without a, somebody faking their own death.

• 45:15Robert Evans?

  Oh, Sophie, so excited for you. This story doesn't even end. This story like late middles with two death fakings.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 45:23Robert Evans?

  Because in September of 2022, Ziz fakes her death in a boating accident on the Black Signet. Emma calls the cops, says that she fell overboard. The Coast Guard, they work so hard to try to find her and save her that they get fatigue waivers so they can work all night, but they find nothing because she's not dead. Is she on the Black Signet? I don't know where she actually was. But she doesn't, she's not dead.

• 45:50Robert Evans?

  Ziz is declared dead and her, her family prints an obituary, like.

• 45:57Robert Evans?

  Gwyn's death faking is a little less successful. Like their lawyer in court after they come in with legal evidence that Ziz is dead, Gwyn's lawyer is like, I really don't think they're dead. I think they're faking it. Oh, oh, man.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Wow. What a snitch ass lawyer.

• 46:14Robert Evans?

  These lawyers don't like them and they don't like their lawyers.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 46:20Robert Evans?

  Now, in-

• 46:21Speaker 02

  That's where they fucked up. You can't- Your lawyer has to ride for you.

• 46:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that, but, look, L. Ron Hubbard knew this about having a cult.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Who's riding for this? Who even, who knows what the fuck they're talking about?

• 46:33Robert Evans?

  Right, how do you even talk with these people at this point?

• 46:36Speaker 01

  When they're asking for counsel, eh? Oh, here's what's going on.

• 46:39Robert Evans?

  The sanest decision one of them has made is to fake their death.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Honestly, maybe we need more lawyers in this story. Maybe they could have saved them.

• 46:47Robert Evans?

  Maybe a couple of lawyers additional could have fixed this. So, I don't know precisely.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Also, they have lawyer money?

• 46:53Robert Evans?

  No, these are, these are public defenders.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 46:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So- Gwyn clearly fakes their death just to clear themselves of their legal problems. I think Ziz does it for that, but also she and her closest friends are now plotting the murder of Curtis Lind. We don't really, yeah, that's the landlord.

• 47:11Speaker 01

  Now, they want to kill Curtis.

• 47:12Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, they want to kill Curtis.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  To, they want to stay on the land, is that the kind of the thought behind it?

• 47:19Robert Evans?

  I think they want to stay on the land. I think they also, their escalation logic is that if he is having the cops evict us, that is a situation that could end in our death, so he's trying to murder us. So, the logical thing for us to do is to kill him now to protect us both from him and from other people.

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And then have sex with his body?

• 47:36Robert Evans?

  I don't, I don't think they're going to do that, but they, they are at least aware of that as an option.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  So on the table.

• 47:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, the reality of what happens next is a little bit in dispute, but what no one disagrees is that on November 13th, 2022, this is like right after midnight, Curtis Lind is stabbed repeatedly and impaled with a samurai sword. He also, during the same altercation, shoots and kills Emma Borhanian and wounds another member of the group. In one Tumblr post, a Zizian with the username A Flower By Another Name gives what I think is probably a representative example of how the Zizians want to depict what happened next, what happened here. Kurt, quote, "Curtis Lind and his ex-CIA best friend Patrick McMillan spent months threatening Emma and her friends.

• 48:21Robert Evans?

  Unlike what the papers claim, Emma and her friends weren't squatters. They were tenants who were struggling to find jobs or a place that would lease to them after Merrick and Seafar called a SWAT team on them in 2019." Now- I don't know if McMillan was in the CIA, and I don't know if he and Curtis threatened these ladies, but I will say the preponderance of evidence suggests they were in fact squatting. This account blames them on not being able to make rent on their legal bills, but by this point, they had been squatting for like two years and change.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:49Robert Evans?

  I don't know if Lind was transphobic. I don't know, you know, if he alien, they say he alienated them from their neighbors by telling them that they were in a cult. I don't know if that's true, or if they alienated their neighbors by being very off putting and aggressive. This Zizian account claims that other individuals started threatening to call the cops on the Zizians and thus, quote, "It was an unending nightmare for them of terrifying insane threats from every corner." Now, the author of this document says they weren't there themselves, but believes, heard like other members of the community explain what happened, and they said that Lind made specific threats in the fall of 2022, which culminated in one member of the group buying a bulletproof vest and wearing it at all times. I don't trust this account, and among other things, it lies about the nature of their

• 49:34Robert Evans?

  living situation. It lies by saying Emma had filed paperwork to take Curtis to court over the eviction. There was no court thing filed here. There's a very good, comprehensive source on this by an individual who goes by Ken the Cowboy on Twitter, and he notes, "In this timeline of events, the last sentence is not true. There's no record of any lawsuit being filed in 2022 with any of the Zizians as plaintiffs and with Curtis Lind as a defendant." So, they claim basically, "This guy was aggressive and threatening us, and one day he attacked us," right? Quote, "That morning, he decided to stop them. He walked all the way from his trailer to their trucks while they were packing their things and opened fire. Lind shot Emma point blank through her heart and lungs. She collapsed to the ground and immediately her lung began

• 50:18Robert Evans?

  filling with her heart's blood. She died within 20 seconds, violently coughing up chunks of her lung tissue in a futile attempt to clear her airways. Somni was shot six times, rushing in a futile attempt to save Emma's life. The vest saved her life, but she was still hit through the neck and stomach. She acted only in self-defense." That's the Zizian claim here, that he just walks in as they're getting ready to leave and starts shooting them, right?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's stupid.

• 50:42Robert Evans?

  Now, that's their claim. This leaves out a very important fact, which is that Curtis Lind is stabbed 50 times.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Fifty?

• 50:52Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 50:54Robert Evans?

  Lynn's account is somewhat less sympathetic to these people. He claims that after successfully getting a judgment against them in a court, he moved to evict and the sheriff agreed to do an eviction on November 15th. And this is what Lynn later said, quote, "So they're worried about where they were going to go and what they were going to do. And they had a meeting with me and the meeting was about them staying for another two months and not paying. I said, no, I can't do that. So one of them took out a knife. It was a folding knife. It was a fairly large folding knife. It started patting the blade in their hand like this and looking at me and smiling." And they don't specify who this was. I don't know, like, you know, entirely like which person he's accusing here or whatever,

• 51:34Robert Evans?

  but he says, this is how his account of like the attack itself is that after this, after he gets threatened with a knife, he goes and he buys a pistol and he gets a license to carry. And then right before the sheriffs are supposed to show up to evict them, one of the Zizians named Suri shows up and she tries to get him to like come help turn the water off in her trailer. So he goes over to there to turn the water off. And as he bends over to do that, he gets hit with something that shatters the right side of his skull. Quote, "And the next thing I remember is standing up with three of them right next to me, you know, or around me. And I was bleeding from numerous puncture wounds. I think around 50. I couldn't see out of my right eye. Had been punctured three times. The back of my neck had some severe

• 52:17Robert Evans?

  cuts, like someone was trying to cut my head off. You know, I had no idea what was happening or when this at all happened. I was completely gone while this was happening. And how I stood back up or got to that spot, I have no idea. But I looked at all the blood coming out of me. Oh, and I had a sword, a long sword, all the way through my chest, right next to my heart, sticking out the other end, which I went to the hospital with. I was afraid to take it out. But anyway, at that time, I pulled out my pistol and started shooting. I killed the person to my right." And I gotta say, based on the physical evidence, I think Lynn's account is the real one of what happens here. I think they ambush him and stab him repeatedly and he shoots and kills one in self-defense. Obviously, like, again, he has a samurai sword entirely through his back.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Can we acknowledge that this man took fifty to the chest and a samurai sword?

• 53:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  It don't make him like that anymore.

• 53:10Robert Evans?

  And it's one of those, one of the like doubting claims by the Zizians is that like he couldn't survive being stabbed this many times. People survive getting stabbed a crazy amount of times, all the time. It's all like, if you read about enough stabbing accounts, you will read about people who die because they get stabbed once. And you will read about people who live through getting like seventy stab wounds. It's nuts. Stabbings are very hard to predict.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Tricky, tricky. Yeah. And also, it's also so worrisome because now they've done it, right? They've crossed that line.

• 53:37Robert Evans?

  They've crossed that line and one of them has died, right?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yes. So the stakes are as high as they had always thought that they were.

• 53:45Robert Evans?

  And when the box trucks are cleaned out after they get arrested, um, the ones who had carried out the attack, because Ziz is on the property, and I think Gwen is too still at this point, but Ziz does not participate in the attack. And like cops recognizes and know that she's faking her death and don't arrest her, which is one of like the weird things.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Like, they're familiar enough to know that.

• 54:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I think this is that, because like they've been called before because of these people. Yeah, I think they they're aware of who she is, but just don't do, even after this mass stabbing shooting, like, again, the cops just don't do their jobs also is part of this story.

• 54:24Robert Evans?

  You know, it's a, it's also worth noting that when they, this, after this arrest, when like their box trucks are being cleaned out, they find tubes, containers of lye, which, you know, Ziz had talked to Jamie about dissolving bodies in lye. That's probably what the plan was with Curtis. My guess is, that's certainly what Curtis gets convinced of. Now, my thinking, and I can't, this is not proven, I I'm sure courts will try, we'll see how well they are able to do this in a court. My suspicion is that Ziz orchestrated this attack and convinced her friends to do it, or convinced them to convince themselves to do it, and justified it using the same escalatory logic that they used on everything else.

• 55:06Robert Evans?

  On her blog, when discussing theoretical acts of deadly violence, Ziz referred to what she called "Quirl's Algorithm" from the Harry Potter rationalist fan pick these people all love. And she quoted this line from the book describing the mental state she believed was necessary to survive a life-threatening situation. "Intent to kill. Think purely of killing. Grasp at any means to do so. Censors off. Do not flinch. Kill."

• 55:31Robert Evans?

  Again, this Harry Potter book really-

• 55:33Speaker 01

  This really goes all the way back to that.

• 55:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Be careful what you write, author. You might get someone impaled by a samurai sword.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Of course they had a samurai sword.

• 55:45Robert Evans?

  Of course they had a samurai sword. I'm sure they bought them all from the Bud K catalog.

• 55:51Robert Evans?

  So Ziz had also written in late 2021 in a comment on her blog, "I get so many people lining up to commit suicide by Ziz." And then she hyperlinks to the Wiki for Suicide by Cop, and her meaning is that anyone acting in a way to like harm her or her goals is killing themselves because she has to kill them now, right? And there's a good Medium post by someone named Sepha Shapiro that traces around how around this time Ziz's online writing becomes increasingly obsessed with the idea of using deadly violence to make oneself less vulnerable, right? That you, again, you have to always be ready to kill in order to protect yourself.

• 56:31Robert Evans?

  So the police arrest two of her friends, Somni and Suri Dao, who are the two surviving Zizians who'd taken part in the attack, and they take them to jail. Per a California law, these two are not just charged with trying to kill Curtis, but with the murder of their friend Emma. It's like if, you know, three people rob a liquor store and one of them kills someone, the other two will get charged with murder because someone died in the commission of a crime that they were involved in, right? It's just California state law. Lot of people get life sentences as a result of this. Usually not in this exact scenario, but-

• 57:06Robert Evans?

  Somni was placed in a men's jail and complained. Dow, after being assigned to a women's jail, demanded a men's jail. I think this is because they were trying to like make a case that they weren't in their right mind, but it's kind of unclear to me exactly why this happens. There's a lot in terms of these two and their interactions with the court system that I'm not gonna get into, right? Because it's just, we simply can't go down all of those rabbit holes. But you should know that like, this is a factor in everyone's thinking is like, their two friends are in prison, they're constantly sending these letters to the judge, they're like making these like weird rationalist arguments in their court cases and like that's

• 57:47Robert Evans?

  all going down while Ziz and the remainder of her inner circle kind of go on the run, right? Because, you know, now they've been involved in a murder. Right. Gwynn seems to go fully into hiding at this time. I don't know if that's because of the murder or just because she had finally had enough of Ziz and all of her talk about killing, but in any case, she goes to ground around this point. Now, while all this is going on, I hate to keep bringing in new people, but there's a bunch of them. There's a bunch of them. Jamie, up in Vermont, I don't think is continuing to, is seeing Alice Monday anymore. Alice seems to have also made the wise decision to fucking bounce and go to ground. Jamie is living with another Ziz follower named Daniel Blank up in Vermont at this

• 58:32Robert Evans?

  point. And Jamie has gotten increasingly into Ziz's ideas. Blank is one of the people, we know he delivers several documents to the court on Somni's behalf during this whole, like after they go get charged with murder. And he's like a guy who has like a job and, you know, stuff going on in his life. And then like a month after this shooting stabbing, he drops out of society, cuts ties with his family and quits his job to go live with Jamie and like... It's kind of a little unclear of exactly what's happening. But my belief is basically Jamie and the people who are around here, who are up in Vermont, who are Zizians, are being, before Ziz gets there, told to prepare for Ziz because they

• 59:13Robert Evans?

  want to get access to money and a private property, a compound, right? Where they can both not be on the run, have a living space, and continue to work on their ideas. That is what I think is happening. And Daniel Blank is someone who has been following Ziz online, gets convinced to drop out of his life, cut ties with everybody, move in with this person Jamie, and it looks like they're kind of working to like, ready a situation for Ziz and the Zizians in Vermont. And again, there's a lot of this that has not been litigated yet, but what we know is that on December 31st, 2022, Jamie Zashko's parents, who were 72 and 69 respectively, are murdered in their home.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Oh my God. On the property of Vermont?

• 59:58Robert Evans?

  They, no, they live in a separate state. They live in Pennsylvania, right? But we don't know who committed this murder. No one has yet been charged for it. Unlike in the lynch stabbing, we do not have an obvious explanation. There is a ring video that shows an unknown vehicle pulling into the driveway, followed by screams. Some investigators think they hear someone yell "Mom" before another person yells "Oh my God, oh my God." But other people who have viewed the recording say that it's unclear if that first word is "Mom." I have not seen this recording, so I can't tell you what's accurate. But Zashko's parents were worth several million dollars and had a sizable estate to inherit.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, you said that she had bought the property initially off of family money, right?

• 1:00:39Robert Evans?

  Right. She's got some amount of access to it, right? And her last, right before these people are murdered, Jamie's mom messages with Jamie earlier that same day about savings bonds that Zashko is due to receive. In blog posts from 2021, Zashko had written about her parents and repeatedly accused them of being abusers. One specific accusation she makes is that they snuck meat into her food and forced her to eat it after she expressed a desire to go vegan. So she has talked extensively online about her parents being fundamentally evil people. We know that at this point, she lives with Daniel Blank, and that their phones go dark. Right around the time of the murder, as if they had like placed them in a Faraday bag, basically. Okay. Right?

• 1:01:23Robert Evans?

  But we don't know where they are on the day of the murder. Police visit them in Vermont shortly after the murder because obviously the daughter is someone that you're going to think of as a potential like, because one of the things about the murder is that whoever did it had some degree of knowledge of the property and an ability to get on it without forcing an entry. Right? So obviously the cops, they're going to think who's the next of kin. Right? So police visit them on their property in Vermont and talk to Blank and Jamie. Jamie, they ask if she has a gun. Jamie says yes, and she shows them a handgun that she owns that is the same caliber as the one used in the shootings. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean much. It's a nine millimeter, ton of nine millimeters. Yeah. Right? There's one thing the cops will point out is that Zajko owned the same type of bullet, the same make of bullet as those used in the shooting.

• 1:02:08Robert Evans?

  But again, like I, I, the bullets I use keeping my carry gun are Hydra Shocks, which is like what cops care, because that's the safest thing in court. If you're in a defensive shooting, you want to be like, I have the same bullets the cops have, right? Because someone can't, you don't want to have like the, the man shredder zombie rounds or some shit. So the fact that like a common defensive caliber murdered these people was in the gun, that's not a smoking gun, if you'll forgive it, but it also is like, that's not nothing either, right? You know, like, that's not nothing. Right.

• 1:02:41Robert Evans?

  What means more is that Jamie is now the full beneficiary of her parents' estate. And while she has not been charged, an attorney for Pennsylvania has filed a potential slayer statute issue, which is a law in Pennsylvania that you can't inherit someone's stuff if you kill them. Right? But again, they haven't been charged. There's a lot of suspicious shit about this. She also lies to her relatives claiming she couldn't have driven to Pennsylvania from Vermont because she didn't have a working car, and we know she did. So. You know. Yeah, it's it's very suspicious over here. I don't think it's unlikely that she may have been basically tasked with killing her parents to get access to her money for the cause, their money for the cause, right?

• 1:03:26Robert Evans?

  That's kind of my suspicion, you know? And she was partly told it was okay because they were abusive and so like you maybe have to do this in order to protect yourself and other people from abusers, which is a kind of logic they have too. On January 13th, right after midnight, Pennsylvania state troopers raid a hotel near the Philadelphia airport where Blank and Zashko are staying. A Vermont judge had issued a warrant for their home. The police had not found the gun they believed was the murder weapon. They touched that weapon when they're in Vermont, but they don't have a warrant for it, right? So they don't get to take it. Zashko was detained and the only one and would have been the only one detained if she hadn't shouted to hotel staff as they're taking her away, "Tell Daniel in room 111, I'm being arrested."

• 1:04:11Robert Evans?

  Damn. Great. Smooth, smooth. These rationalists and their brilliant crimes. Oh, man. The cops obviously get interested in this and they recognize Daniel's name and they find on surveillance footage that she has handed a bag to him outside of his room in the night before, right? And they recognize his name because they'd visited Zashko and Blank in their Vermont home. So they get a warrant for his hotel room and raid it like an hour or two later. Blank is found in the bathroom next to a blonde person dressed in black. This is Ziz. So. Oh. Right, yeah. An article by the San Francisco Chronicle explains what happened next.

• 1:04:55Robert Evans?

  Blank put his hands behind his back and walked out of the room, obeying police commands, but Ziz did not do any of that. He had his eyes closed, a trooper testified, using masculine pronouns. He would not speak. He was just laying almost unconscious or as if he was dead on the ground. He had to be carried out. And again, I- This is misgendering. I don't know if it's intentional or if Ziz was like acting and like portraying themselves as masculine because they're on the run, you know, at this point in time. That's not actually clear to me. Whatever the case, Ziz is taken into custody and charged with disorderly conduct and interfering with a police investigation. A nine millimeter handgun was found in the room along with ammo. Forty thousand dollars in cash is found in Zashko's Subaru.

• 1:05:35Robert Evans?

  And again, she doesn't get charged with murder. They let her out very soon and she just leaves. The cops are shocked because she, they have to give her back her car and the 40 grand, which she abandons. She and Blake just leave the car and forty thousand dollars in cash.

• 1:05:54Robert Evans?

  I don't think they're making good decisions at this point, is my only explanation for you, David.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  How?

• 1:06:02Robert Evans?

  Maybe it's that they're thinking like, well, they put a tracker in the money. They'll track the car. It's not safe to have any of it. I don't know why they're making this decision, but it's very weird, right? Now, during this same time, several other Zizians are at least suspected to have been coming in and out of like Pennsylvania during the area around the murder. It is unclear how many people, if they were, if the Zizians killed this husband and wife, it's unclear how many of them were there. And again, no one has been charged. But it's at this point that another Zizian enters the playing field. This person goes by the name Ophelia. They are a German citizen. They have like a legal residency in the US. Their last name is Bockhold.

• 1:06:46Robert Evans?

  They used to work at James Street or Jane Street, which is where Sam Bankman-Fried worked. They're a quant trader, right? So this is someone functioning at a high level of the finance industry who like drops out of their career and life to go to Vermont. Hours, like really like they fly in like right before the murders.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  That's such a troubling theme about this whole thing about how many of these people really do integrate in a major way. Like, it's not just like fringe people.

• 1:07:14Robert Evans?

  No. These are people who are successful in their other lives, but they're lacking, I think. A lot of this is just that desperation that is also core to like fascism's appeal. To feel like a sense of heroism, like I am part of a heroic struggle.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:29Robert Evans?

  People are very vulnerable to that. And even if you're making the money, if you're succeeding at a tech company or in finance, but it all feels empty to you because it kinda is. If someone's like, you can save the cosmos.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, here's the cause.

• 1:07:43Robert Evans?

  You'll give up your whole life in order to do that, right?

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Robert Evans?

  So Blank and Zaschko are released in short order. As I said, they get out of jail quickly, but Ziz stays in custody for a while. And bail is set, I think at 50,000 initially.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Are they aware of the fake death and everything at this?

• 1:08:01Robert Evans?

  Yes, they are aware she has faked her death. California shows no interest in sending police out to get her. Which is like, it is a crime.

• 1:08:12Robert Evans?

  This is, the bail is set very high for two misdemeanors. And police justify it in like the court documents by saying Ziz had recklessly created a dangerous situation by making the police move her. Per that argument, that article in Wired, quote, "Behind these arguments and even the charges themselves lay a deeper motive. Unable to charge for the Zaschko murders, but suspecting that Lasota, Michelle Zaschko, that's Jamie, and Daniel Blank could be tied to them, prosecutors were trying desperately to hold Lasota while the police gathered evidence. Obviously, you realize we don't give a shit about this case, one local official familiar with it told me. What they were interested in was Lasota's involvement in the homicide." So the authorities here have recognized this is all centered around this person.

• 1:08:53Robert Evans?

  But it's very difficult for us to hold them legally responsible at this stage. We can't even arrest anyone for the murder yet. We don't have enough. And, you know, it's, it's, I'm not gonna, again, pretend to know precisely what happened, but I think it's pretty clear Ziz probably gave the order to do this killing.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:14Robert Evans?

  Or everyone using her logic talked themselves into, well, this is the only way to further our- Crucially important work is we need the money that these abusers are selfishly keeping to themselves. Ziz's bail is eventually reduced. She winds up in the wind immediately. Like, the authorities are like, she's gotta immediately bounce and we'll lose her. And that's exactly what happens. Zashco and Blank, it's kind of unclear exactly what they do initially after this, but we know Jamie reaches out to her aunt and begs for help. And her aunt is like, did you kill my sister? And Jamie says no and blames the murders on Less Wrong, which is Eliza's, like, blog. So she's blaming the rationalist community.

• 1:09:59Robert Evans?

  She claims that she's being targeted and that, like, Seafar had committed murdered her parents to, like, basically make Ziz look bad. A year or so goes by, right? Ziz misses a court date. She never shows back up. We really don't know what the fuck these people are doing for most of this period. In February of 2023-

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  She's no longer blogging either.

• 1:10:21Robert Evans?

  She's not. No, no, no, no, no, no. But she's still-

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Well, you said she had stopped. She was just responding to people.

• 1:10:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And she is communicating with people still, but I think it's primarily through more, like, direct means. In February of 2023, a community alert is posted by someone named Sephiroth Shapiro. It warns that, quote, "Over the past few years, Ziz has repeatedly called for the deaths of many different classes of people." And this, this post lays out a lot of what I've described in these episodes, but there's still no public awareness of the Zizians. Everything happening here is so weird. The circumstances around, around the murderers are so murky that, like, most law enforcement kind of shrugs it off. And there's not, like, a public, these people are so fringe. It's very difficult to even talk about them, right?

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. How do you qualify that on the nightly news?

• 1:11:06Robert Evans?

  Yes, exactly. This is all going to change. In February of 2024, Jamie Zashco purchases three handguns, I think from a Vermont gun store. A few months later, in May of 2024, a 20-year-old woman named Teresa Youngblood disappears from her home in Seattle. Youngblood is one of a, one of the scattered community of people who still obsessively followed and interacted with Ziz and her- Inner Circle's teachings. Her parents feared that she was in a controlling relationship with someone. And months after disappearing, she applies for a marriage license with another rationalist who's obsessed with Ziz named Maximilian Snyder. Now, like most Zizians, Snyder has a very impressive academic record. He was a National Merit Scholar who attended Oxford

• 1:11:50Robert Evans?

  University. Then he starts posting on Less Wrong, like all the others. He is initially a fan of Yudkowski, but at some point he gets convinced that Ziz's vegan Sith radicalism is the true path. In the summer of 2023, just months earlier, he won $11,000 from an AI alignment contest, and he won that award under his legal name, but he also goes by Audir. It's kind of unclear to me what the situation is there. Around the same time, he tried to raise money for Ziz when she was briefly behind bars. I don't know if this guy Snyder, this person, if Snyder marries Youngblood because they're actually in love, they had gone to high school together. But I think there may have been some sort of weird legal reason that Ziz wanted them married. Again, very unclear,

• 1:12:35Robert Evans?

  but they don't stay together physically very long. By January of 2025, Teresa is in Vermont, looking at rural properties for purchase alongside Ophelia, the German quant trader, right? Well, Max Snyder is in like California. And reading between some lines, I think because Ophelia and Teresa aren't involved in any of the court cases, Ziz is using them to help actually scout out and find an isolated compound where they can hide out, right? Like they are doing the groundwork of figuring out a place for them to live. They are acting as the legal individuals who can kind of handle everything for the folks who are legally compromised. Later investigation would show that Bockholdt and Youngblood had been living in Chapel Hill, Vermont in a duplex,

• 1:13:19Robert Evans?

  and neighbors say that several other people also lived with them. These people were always dressed in black and owned a box truck. It is unclear, but I think what happens is after she goes on the run, Ziz starts reaching out to people she'd been in contact with around the world and says, hey, the time is now. Drop out of your lives and come devote yourselves to the cause, right? Okay. And then these, these three are the ones who follow, Bockholdt, Youngblood, and Snyder, right? Because they all cut ties with their families, cut, you know, with their jobs and leave home around the same time. While they're looking for rural pro compounds, Bockholdt and Youngblood wind up in a hotel in Lindenville, Vermont. An employee reports them to the police because they're wearing body armor and other tactical gear, and at least one of them is openly carrying a pistol.

• 1:14:03Robert Evans?

  Something is very weird here because they're approached not just by Virginia State Police, but by a Homeland Security Investigations Officer. And there's evidence that Homeland Security spends like a week, is surveilling them for like a week before the shootout that happens. I don't know what Homeland Security thought was happening. They may have just seen, we're on the border. Obviously shit's escalated there. This is a foreign citizen with an American citizen. They're wrapping their electronics in tinfoil. They've got guns. They're driving around being very suspicious in tactical gear. Maybe they just thought it was like some run-of-the-mill terrorism bullshit.

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  It's worth checking out.

• 1:14:40Robert Evans?

  Right. So they are surveilling these people. And I think Youngblood and Bockholdt realize they're being surveilled, right? And that, that, that starts that escalatory loop in their head of Zizian logic where, well, if the police confront me, there's only one way to respond, right?

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Fuck, yeah.

• 1:15:01Robert Evans?

  Two days later, prosecutors in California ask the judge in the Curtis Lind case to speed up the process of going to trial. He's in his 80s. He's got a bad memory and he's the only witness of the attacks. So they say it's necessary, like, we need to do this quickly. So the next day, January 17th, before this can happen, before Lind can go to trial, a masked assailant assaults Lind near his property and slits his throat, killing him. Maximilian Snyder, Youngblood's husband, will be arrested days later in Redding, California, for the murder.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Fuck, because they had been separate. Oh, man. So there's like, there's a possibility that Zizian sent.

• 1:15:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I don't see what now. He did not, he hasn't pled yet, at least as of the time we record this, but he sent a letter in jail to Eliza Yidkowski, trying to make him become a vegan. He also. Priorities in order.

• 1:15:58Robert Evans?

  He also claimed, quote, "I am not one of Ziz's friends. Neither she nor her friends endorse me or my words. So far as I know, I speak only for myself as myself for the sake of everyone." Sure.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:16:10Robert Evans?

  Okay, man. You just decided to kill this guy for no reason.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Dog, you are.

• 1:16:17Robert Evans?

  Oh, man.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  This guy who happened to happen to have a relationship with this very small group of people.

• 1:16:24Robert Evans?

  Who is? His, this person he has filed for a marriage license with, Youngblood, the day after Lind gets assassinated. Youngblood and Bockholdt are heading back from a trip out target shooting when they get pulled over by Border Patrol. Youngblood almost immediately draws her sidearm. There's a shootout. She kill, or I think she kills. Now, anytime there's a shootout and an officer dies, a decent amount of the time that officer is like killed by another cop's bullet. I don't actually know for sure if it was Youngblood or if they all start shooting and he just gets killed in the crossfire. I don't fully know whose gun kills him, but she definitely starts shooting, right?

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:03Robert Evans?

  Um, and Border Patrol Agent David Malin dies. Uh, Bockholdt is killed in the immediate shootout before she can draw a weapon. And both of the firearms used in this shooting were guns purchased by Zaji, by Jamie, in early 2024, right? So again, you can, all of these things are, it's very easy to connect them if you like know all these people, but it takes so long to trace out.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  For all their talk of murder, the, in, in practice, they're not very good at it, huh?

• 1:17:30Robert Evans?

  No, I, I guess they, I mean, they didn't plan for the shooting to happen, right? It's just that their kind of escalatory logic made it inevitable. After all this, authorities finally start putting the whole story together. A manhunt is law, launched and on February 16th of 2025, Ziz, Jamie and Daniel Blank are finally caught. After the shootout, they seem to have started living in box trucks again, one of which was registered to Youngblood. Yeah, back to what you know. And again, one of these is Youngblood, like the box truck is registered into her name. They pulled onto a property in Frostburg to camp and the owner like spotted them and said, hey, get off my land. And like Ziz tries to talk this person into letting them stay for a month, but he's like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna call the cops.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  You're in a robe. You're in a wizard's robe.

• 1:18:15Robert Evans?

  You look like a wizard. I don't need any of this. Ultimately, they all get arrested and charged with everything the cops could throw at them, which is like illegal possession, carrying a firearm, stuff like that, right? Inside the other box truck, state troopers found Jamie and Ziz, according to the charging documents, dressed all in black and wearing gun belts with ammunition. So yeah, and that's the situation. Uh, where we are now. That's it. The story's done. No. Yeah. So this is basically where we are. Ziz asked for pre-trial release. Didn't get it. No.

• 1:18:59Robert Evans?

  Not shocked about that. Quote, speaking halt, and this is from a Seattle PI article, "Speaking haltingly, she also requested a vegan diet and said that she was in a mild state of delirium due to lack of food. I have not done anything wrong, she told the juz. I might starve to death if you do not intervene. I need the jail to be ordered to have a vegan diet. It's more important than whatever this hearing is." So I don't think this whole court process is gonna end super well for Ziz. No. But I also, it's very hard to tell, like, what are you, what are you gonna charge? Like, I don't, like, I'm legitimately, like, very, uh, like, I, I'll be fascinated to see what the charges are here. Yeah, it's exciting to know this, we can see this play out real time. I, yeah.

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  This was weird.

• 1:19:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Hell, yeah, it was. Hell, yeah, it was. Great. Anyway.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  But like, I would like to know how things fucking shake up.

• 1:19:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Well, maybe we'll revisit this when my brain has healed. I need to go, like, read about Hitler some to calm down. Yeah, you need to go talk to your neighbor. Yeah, I need to go talk to my neighbor.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  That's a better suggestion. Thank you, dude.

• 1:20:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, not just keep reading my Hitler books and coming up with theories. That's how you get double bad. That's how you get double bad. Exactly. That's how it happens.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  Oh, buddy, you gotta go on a run, go talk to your neighbor, go pet a goat, you know?

• 1:20:27Robert Evans?

  Everyone else, go, go talk to somebody, you know, pet an animal, walk, uh, you know, in the woods or something. Maybe stay away from boats for a while, just in case. Stay the fuck away from boats. Don't go live on a boat. Get off the water. Don't go live on a boat. Stay out of the water.

• 1:20:49Robert Evans?

  I don't care how bad it rent is, stay out of the fucking water.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Fuck.

• 1:20:56Robert Evans?

  God.

• 1:20:56Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:20:57Robert Evans?

  How do you feel at the end of this, David?

• 1:20:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, David, how are you doing? This is your first experience on our show. What's up? How's the vibe?

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know. To tell you the truth, I don't know how I feel. I'm gonna have to, really gonna have to kick this around for a couple of days, but this is interesting.

• 1:21:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Interesting as hell.

• 1:21:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's, uh, that's one way to describe it. Um, that's one way to describe it. Um.

• 1:21:23Speaker 06

  This is a wild time. David, do you have any, do you have anything you want to plug for the listeners?

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh, I produced my own comedy special. It's available on my Patreon, patreon.com backslash David Borey, G B O R I E. It's called Birth of a Nation, spelled with a G because that's my last name and I think it's funny, but yeah, check that out. I have a podcast, My Mama Told Me. I also have one called All Fantasy Everything, where we draft fantasy things that aren't sports, but yeah, check that stuff out.

• 1:21:56Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 1:21:57Speaker 06

  Oh shit, that sounds really cool.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  It's a lot of fun.

• 1:22:00Robert Evans?

  That sounds so much better for you than everything we've talked about today.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  It's different than this. It's different than this.

• 1:22:06Speaker 06

  And, and it reminded me, I need to, I need to set my fantasy basketball lineup, so thank you, sir.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Oh, there you go. It's time.

• 1:22:12Speaker 06

  It's time.

• 1:22:13Robert Evans?

  Check it out, everybody. Uh, all right. That's, uh, that's been the podcast. Don't, don't do any of this. Don't do any of the things in this, in this episode.

• 1:22:22Speaker 06

  Please. Bye.

• 1:22:24Robert Evans?

  Bye.

• 1:22:28Speaker 06

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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