Part Four: Jimmy Savile: Britain's Unending Nightmare

Robert concludes the harrowing tale of Jimmy Saville by explaining the horrific reach his relationship with Margaret Thatcher gave him into the NHS, and how he lived out his days as BBC royalty. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Robert Evans?

  Welcome to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the very worst people in all of history that, I don't know, sometimes you just want to change up how you introduce your show, you know?

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Just saying.

• 0:20Robert Evans?

  Do it the same way every time.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  This guy, uh...

• 0:22Speaker 02

  This is the biggest bastard, yeah.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  This guy's in the running, is what I'm saying.

• 0:26Robert Evans?

  One of them, right? Yeah, he's way up there. He's a bigger bastard than all the pollen in the fucking air right now. It's turning this fucking cursed spring.

• 0:33Speaker 02

  Jesus, the pollen is out of control.

• 0:35Robert Evans?

  I know.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh.

• 0:37Robert Evans?

  Terrible. Do we just need another 12 months of winter? Come on, guys. Like, a real winter this time.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  I have the opposite. You know, when people are like, "Oh, my gosh, I get seasonal depression in the winter." It's like, no. Winter rocks.

• 0:51Robert Evans?

  Yep. Winter's so much better.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  I love winter.

• 0:54Robert Evans?

  And you know what's even better than winter? Learning about a... Hmm. Well, we're gonna start anyway. With our guest, Courtney Cosack. Hello, Courtney. How are you feeling? Hello. As we talk about this monster. Glad to be back for another horrific episode. Oh, good. Well, we're glad to have you back. We love having you on the show. We love tormenting you with horrible things. That's what you do with your friends, you know? You gather together... That is not what you do with your friends, buddy. ...spend time talking about Jimmy Savile.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  That's what you do with your friends.

• 1:29Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's why I don't have that many of them.

• 1:31Speaker 02

  That's what Jimmy Savile does with his friends.

• 1:33Robert Evans?

  Is what Jimmy Savile did with his friends, yeah. Yeah, talking about a lot of these same crimes, I presume, with his cop friends at least. Oh, my goodness.

• 1:43Speaker 03

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• 1:47Speaker 04

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• 2:15Robert Evans?

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• 2:50Robert Evans?

  So, we left off last episode with me mentioning that we're going to talk more about the Duncroft Approved School for Girls. And like approved schools or government-approved schools where you like send kids who are having trouble, right? And one of the things happening at the time is that in this period of like mental health history in the UK, there's this kind of belief that you have a girls or kids in general who are having specific kinds of problems that are like troubled mentally to a significant extent. In some cases, it's best if the state treats them rather than their family, right? Sure. And Duncroft is an experimental facility which sought to use psychotherapy to, as

• 3:33Robert Evans?

  Davies writes for in his book, In Plain Sight, correct the behavioral defects of the girls placed in its care. Duncroft was specifically a school for troubled girls who were seen as intelligent, right? Now, what that really means is that these are the children of prominent and wealthy families primarily, not like exclusively, but a lot of Duncroft girls come from quote-unquote "good families," right? Per the book, In Plain Sight, "Girls were sent to Duncroft for a variety of misdemeanors. One girl, who arrived at the school as a 14-year-old in 1972, insisted years later that half the girls were there as punishment for being the victims of sexual abuse, the crime of having sex underage, as we thought it. Others were put in Margaret Jones's care," that's the woman running the facility, "for

• 4:17Robert Evans?

  dabbling with drugs, anorexia, attempting suicide, or for running away from children's homes or abusive parents." So, some of these kids are just kids who, you know, got, have been shuffled through the system, but were noted as being like intelligent and so may, you know, there's, there's a, it's worth trying to reform them. But a lot of these girls are like rich girls who have embarrassed their parents. That's a really good way to say it. Yeah. Yeah. And often embarrass them by getting molested. Sometimes by their parents or by an uncle or something. That's so horrible. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of what's going on here. Now, as I noted, the headmistress of the school for much of its existence was Margaret Jones, and she absolutely loved Jimmy Savile.

• 5:00Robert Evans?

  Because Duncroft was a school for the daughters of prominent people, it attracted a lot of celebrity attention when fundraising was needed. Savile very quickly became the most prominent and reliable famous friend of the school for an obvious reason: it gave him access to teenage girls. Because Savile was seen as a good volunteer, he was allowed to sleep overnight at Duncroft with some regularity. And he was even allowed to take... Yeah, yeah, they let him crash there. Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah. It's wild how many hospitals and facilities just do that. Yeah, he stays overnight a bunch of times. Uh huh. Happens constantly. He was even allowed to take girls off-campus in his car for day trips. Many of these patients were eager for the opportunity to escape because this is a... It's not a fun place to be, right?

• 5:45Robert Evans?

  Margaret's theory is that one of the ways you fix these kids who have behavioral problems, you give them like shitloads of chores. So like, constant chores are seen as like a therapeutic aid. So it's a boring place where you're being like kept away from like your friends and your music and like parties and the things that like a normal teenage girl would like, and you're just doing chores all the time. And then this famous guy shows up and is like, "Hey, anybody want a ride? You want to leave school for a day?" Right? You can see why this is appealing to a lot of these young ladies. Yeah, but who's running these places that are allowing this? Margaret Jones.

• 6:23Robert Evans?

  Qualified people, Sophie. Qualified people who love this man Jimmy, who's just good at raising money. He's a saint. He's the next best thing to a saint, pretty much, you know? All he does is raise money for good causes and volunteer his time. These other celebrities are out partying and living it up. Jimmy's volunteering as an orderly, you know, at a bunch of hospitals. Like a surprising, a suspicious number of hospitals. And he sleeps there a lot. What a great guy. Now, starting, one of the weird things about this is that Margaret's nephew is a guy named Myron Jones, and it's spelled weird in the British way. Myron Jones becomes like a journalist, like a BBC journalist, and actually is one of the guys who will report on Jimmy later. But as like a kid, he just is seeing Jimmy at Duncroft regularly when

• 7:07Robert Evans?

  he's visiting his aunt. And like, I think his parents both work there at least part time. So he's around Duncroft all the time. And he just notes like, weird guys around a lot. He would later say, "He was full of banter, though had no real conversation as such. I had a feeling that he was somebody with whom you didn't really know what was going on." One time, Myron saw Savile leave the school with three girls in the back of his convertible. He recalls his parents getting angry about this and confronting his aunt about it. And her response was just, "He's a friend of the school." Why are you worried? He's a friend of the school. It's okay. It's fine. Don't look into it. God, so convenient. It's really convenient. We don't know how many Duncroft girls were abused by Savile.

• 7:51Robert Evans?

  But after the coming of the internet, increasing numbers of former patients began discussing abuse that they had endured while at Duncroft on the internet. In 2008, and at that point, 50-year-old woman named Carrie wrote a biography as part of a therapeutic exercise to deal with a lifetime of trauma and abuse, which had started in care homes and approved schools, including Duncroft, where she'd been sent in 1972 at age 14. So she writes this autobiography as like a therapeutic exercise, and she publishes it online. And in this online autobiography, she writes about the people who molested her, one of whom was a celebrity. And she doesn't want to give his name, because again, the UK has really strict libel laws. So she

• 8:31Robert Evans?

  just calls him JS. Who do we think that is? I got one guess. Hmm. Could it be Dame Judi Dench? I don't know. You know, it's impossible to say. She's, she's wrapped it in such a cipher, we'll never know, likely. Yeah. So she writes about this celebrity JS, who visits Duncroft regularly. And whenever he shows up, he brings cartons of cigarettes for the girls and records, which he hands out as gifts. That tells you a lot about the time, that like, the number one gift for 14-year-old girls, cigarettes. Cigarettes and records.

• 9:11Robert Evans?

  It's so normal, like, the facility is like, of course, the girls can have cigarettes. Obviously, we gotta keep them away from their friends and from, like, going to shows and hanging out, but they can smoke, of course. We're not demons here. Obviously, they need their three packs a day. Jesus.

• 9:28Robert Evans?

  I was reading something where, like, in the 60s, the average American smoked, like, 4,000 cigarettes a year. What a time.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 9:35Robert Evans?

  We need to go back. Now that we know they're harmless, I think we need to go back to smoking all the time, guys, you know?

• 9:42Speaker 01

  This episode's hard enough.

• 9:45Robert Evans?

  This is an episode sponsored by the Health Cigarette. The Health Cigarette. It's a cigarette that's good for you. We hadn't figured it out yet, but if you give us enough money, we'll invent one.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  It's the one funny part.

• 9:57Robert Evans?

  It is. It's the one funny part, is that all these kids are chain smoking.

• 10:03Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. Just cartons. Yes, this man came to the girls' school with cartons of cigarettes and records and then stayed overnight. No way to have known he was doing something bad. How could we have guessed he was hurting these kids?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  The least he could have done to these kids is give them cancer.

• 10:23Robert Evans?

  So Carrie came to cherish Saville's visits because it meant an escape from her boring, ordinary, day-to-day life, and it meant that she got attention, right? Kids like attention, kids need attention. It is good for them, to some extent. Like, it's necessary for children to have attention from adults. And when you're in a place, your fucking family's basically been like, yeah, ship her off to the fucking kid jail, where you're just doing chores all the fuck. You're desperate for retention. And here is a famous, charismatic guy beloved by the whole country, including the Royals and the Prime Minister, and he's paying attention to you. You can see why that's appealing to a fucking 14-year-old, 15-year-old girl, right?

• 11:04Robert Evans?

  So she likes the visits, like, she cherishes them, but she also writes, quote, "It," it being hanging out and going on a day trip with Jimmy, "also meant one had to put up with being mauled and groped when he pulled into a lay-by some five miles along the road. I wasn't the only girl J.S. favored with this either. In fact, he often tried to press me to go further than simply fondling him and allowing him to grope inside my knickers at my partly-formed breasts. He promised me all manner of good things if I would give him oral sex." And eventually she agrees and does it. And the bargain is that Savile will take her to see him record one of his TV shows at the BBC. And he does follow through with this promise.

• 11:47Robert Evans?

  As far as I can tell, I think he pretty much always does. Like when he promises to take a girl he's molesting to go see an episode of whatever show be recorded at the BBC, or to meet the Beatles, or whatever, to get to do a concert. He pretty much always, as far as I can tell, follows through.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Well, thank God for that.

• 12:05Robert Evans?

  It's easy, like it's easier. Like if you're, if you're actually like not following through, some people are gonna tell, right?

• 12:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:12Robert Evans?

  Like you'll, it's, you'll, you'll deal with more problems. You know, this isn't a good thing about him. It's just, that's how it works better, right? And this is a big part of why the BBC is implicated. Because over the years, Jimmy takes, we'll never know how many, at least dozens, probably hundreds of girls that he is abusing onto BBC property for a period of nearly half a century. For decades, he is taking teenage girls, maybe taking teenage boys he's abusing too. I don't, I don't recall coming across those accounts. But he's definitely, for decades, taking underage girls that he is molesting and raping onto BBC property in order, as part of the abuse.

• 12:52Robert Evans?

  That's part of the, the, the quote unquote transaction that he's arranged with these kids. And so the BBC, like, his abuse of hundreds and hundreds of children and adults would not have been possible without the eager and ready assistance of the British Broadcasting Corporation. There is simply no other way to say it. The BBC was a rigid organization with a strict hierarchy where talent set up top and a culture of fear, as identified by the Dame Janet Smith review, ensured lower level employees knew reporting abuse by a star would be the end of their careers. Right? So it's just known, you don't talk shit about the performers. They're the ones making money for everybody, so they get to do what they want.

• 13:36Robert Evans?

  And if you're trying to ruin the party, you're not gonna have a career at the only place really to have a career in television in Britain at this time.

• 13:46Robert Evans?

  That's good.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  It's the career and the libel laws.

• 13:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Like make this terrible combination.

• 13:53Robert Evans?

  That's exactly right. It's this mix of these two things that I think is most of why this happens, right? And the complicity of the British ruling class, who needs Jimmy to make austerity seem more palatable. As the 1980s wore on, Savile grew, only grew more and more skilled at finding victims and discouraging them from talking to anyone. This was not hard, since the man had become a regular guest, not just in Margaret Thatcher's household. She like invites him over for holidays sometimes. Like he comes over and has dinner with some regularity. And he is also a somewhat regular guest of the royal family. In 1985, Savile convinced Prince Charles and Princess Di to guest host a two-hour anti-drug special called Drugs Watch with him.

• 14:38Robert Evans?

  That's good. Again, we know he's drugging some of the girls and boys that he's raping, right? We have reports of that, sometimes just giving them alcohol. But like, anyway, thanks for the anti-drug PSA, Jimmy. I'm sure it helped. That same year. Yeah, it must have. Thank God Princess Di and Prince Charles were there too, you know, really to lend an air of responsibility to the proceedings. I'm sure that got a lot of kids out of bad places. Now, that same year, during an event for healthcare officials, Prince Charles jokingly referred to Savile as my health advisor. Like he talks about him constantly. Savile was also known to Pope John Paul II, who met, so Pope John Paul, like

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Christ.

• 15:21Robert Evans?

  visits England during this period for like the first time a pope had visited London in some period of time, I don't know. Maybe I like, I don't know, but it was a big deal, obviously, given like the history of the Church of England, right? How the Church of England starts as this breakaway from the Catholic Church and there's generations for which the Catholic Church is suppressed violently in, in England and in Ireland, obviously. So the fact that a pope is visiting England is like a big deal, right? And John Paul II, he'd been shot over in the USSR. He's like a big deal pope. Um, and one of the first people the pope meets when he lands in London, this is on TV. This is a major event, is he walks right up to and shakes hands with Jimmy Savile. This is on, this is like a major part, like he's one of the first people the pope meets in England.

• 16:06Robert Evans?

  Um, cause Savile's like the, a famous Catholic.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Is the Pope ironically like the only non pedophile in this story?

• 16:13Robert Evans?

  Oh, I wouldn't, I don't, I don't, I, I don't want to go to bat for JP the second that hard.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 16:19Robert Evans?

  He definitely, I am certain, again, I'm not, I'm not an expert on John Paul the second's specific involvement in the Catholic Church's covering up of sex crimes, but I don't believe he was uninvolved. So I'm certainly not gonna say that. He was the Pope while the Catholic Church was hiding, like, yeah, I doubt he was completely in the clear. I don't know. I'm not an expert on his involvement, though.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 16:42Robert Evans?

  He's right. He's in charge and it's happening in his organization. So in the rare, but not that rare instances where people did try to report on Saville's behavior, as I noted, he is an expert on the UK's libel laws. And these, to make a long story short, your laws suck, UK, and I know I'm in the United States, we've got a lot of shitty laws and a lot of stuff. UK libel laws are fucking bullshit and it's a massive problem. This is part of the problem with like Rowling, right? Where people are getting in legal trouble for saying accurate things about JK Rowling being a fucking bigot. Like Jimmy Savile is very good and a lot of bad people are very good at using the UK's libel laws as a weapon in order to make sure

• 17:23Robert Evans?

  people don't report on the bad things that they're doing. And basically, if you're trying to talk about some of these rumors or even reports, and you can't prove outright that Saville's a child predator, reporting, even reporting on individual allegations could get you in massive trouble. You have to be extremely careful. Now, I think people are even more cowardly in the media than the real level of legal risk justifies. I think there is added cowardice on top of that. But the cowardice starts with the chilling effect that's, that's created when you have laws like this. So any journalist or paper that wanted to write about Jimmy is going to be beset with legal effects, which, I

• 18:07Robert Evans?

  mean, the end result of this is that in most publications throughout most of the period of time where Jimmy Savile is abusing people, they're just automatically spiking any story about his private life, quote unquote, private life, right? Anytime anyone wants to talk about is Jimmy Savile raping people? Those stories just get spiked automatically because legal's not gonna let it through, right? Why even try, right? Who's gonna, who would want to risk your newspaper's survival to report on some he said, she said thing about a beloved humanitarian like Jimmy Savile?

• 18:38Robert Evans?

  That's the argument being made by most of the major editors at most of the major publications in the United Kingdom for decades.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  I do get it, though, because your publication, it's your publication on the line.

• 18:50Robert Evans?

  And you don't know, you know, if you're not plugged into this whole world, you don't know the truth. And maybe all you're hearing is, oh, he's dating a lot of like 18 or 17 year olds. That's legal. I may think it's gross, but I'm not gonna destroy my newspaper to report on a guy having legal sex with someone who's young. That's how a lot of people think about it, right? Now that said, a lot of people go much further than they need to in clamping down on this, even based on the fear because of just like cowardice and it's easier. And in some cases, Jimmy's writing columns for their fucking papers, as we talked about in the last episodes or last week. So as Jimmy goes from his 30s to his 40s, rumors continue to dog him about his outrageous lifestyle. But it's never

• 19:31Robert Evans?

  framed as pedophilia, right? It's always, he's just this eternal bachelor. He's really got an active social life. He's always surrounded by girls. But in the way that they don't mean literal children, even though that's actually what's happening. Like, that's how people talk about this. When he's interviewed and stuff, because people ask him like, hey, it's weird. You're not married. Do you have any like serious, long term relationships? Are you like with anybody long term? He would justify the fact that he never got married or had long term relationships by explaining his belief that being in a relationship causes brain damage, particularly in women. And he wants to avoid the brain damage, right?

• 20:12Robert Evans?

  And in fact, as he gets wealth, yeah, you get brain damaged when you when you get married, you know, and I just don't want any of that brain damage in my life. And as he gets wealthier and he purchases like-

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Hey, Court, I'm a newlywed. How's that going for you?

• 20:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. How are you doing? How's the brain damage hitting? I mean, I will say, being in a relationship does do a degree, a kind of brain damage to you, but it's a good one, I think, on the whole, you know? It's necessary. You're never, you're not avoiding brain damage as a person, you know? Everyone, everyone gets something. But Savile is so worried about this quote unquote, "brain damage", that even as he gets rich and he buys homes and condos across the country, he makes sure that there, he has all of his houses refitted to take the stoves out and to take the kitchen out. Because he thinks that having a proper kitchen is part of what makes girls get brain damaged. This is like a thing he'll talk about in interviews.

• 21:10Speaker 02

  What? That's so dumb.

• 21:13Robert Evans?

  This is just cover, right? This is him coming, I don't think he actually even believes this necessarily. This is him coming up with cover for why he's not with anybody long term, right? You know, everyone knows he's dating, is on dates all the time. Everyone knows he's constant, because he talks about, and his coworkers will be like, "Yeah, he talked about his sex life. He said, oh, I was with a bird this weekend, or a lovely bird that went out to the coast", or whatever. But they never hear their names and/or their ages. And they just assume he's a star who's sleeping with a different woman every night. That's not what's happening, but that's the assumption people make. And it's an assumption people are kind, I think, often consciously forcing themselves to make, because they know something is bad, but they don't want to stir the pot, right?

• 21:57Robert Evans?

  So they're like, "Yeah, he's just, he's a real swinger. He's a hip guy, you know? He's, he's just got a large appetites or whatever." You know, people find ways to have it not be their problem.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  I feel like the libel laws should cover the slander against all grown up women in relationships.

• 22:18Robert Evans?

  In relationships? Yeah, no, shockingly, it doesn't. That, that you're clear on. Savile would also publicly, in interviews, he would repeatedly insist that he hated children, right? Like, "I don't like kids. I don't like them at all. That's why I'm not in a relationship. That's why I don't have any. I just don't actually like them."

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Doug, were you not hosting a child show? What?

• 22:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. That got, that people thought that was weird. It got people talking, right? About the, "He hates kids, but he does this child show. He's basically Santa Claus. That's odd." And in the twilight of Jimmy's career, documentarian Louis Theroux asked him, like, "Why do you say this? Like, why do you say you hate kids? Because like, I see you on TV. It doesn't seem like you hate kids, based on how you perform with them on stage." And Savile was like, "Well, yeah, that's a lie, basically." And he, his exact response was, "We live in a very funny world, and it's easier for me as a single man to say I don't like children, because that puts a lot of salacious tabloid people off the hunt."

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Okay. The hunt of what, Jimmy?

• 23:16Robert Evans?

  A hunt of what? Well, yeah. And Louis kinda asks, this is, I love Louis as a general rule. He doesn't go hard enough. He does do more than a lot of journalists did at the time, but it's not nearly enough in this interview, because he does basically ask him, "Are you a pedophile?" And Jimmy's like, "No, of course not. But, you know, I don't want anyone looking into my life." And so I, just lies like this are easier. It stops you from looking into your life. But you're just saying, you're trying to throw people off the hunt. That's not, I want-

• 23:43Speaker 01

  A hunt of what, mother?

• 23:46Robert Evans?

  Listeners to this show, I've make references. I have a long-term partner that I've been with for a while. Like, I have a personal life. I have a romance. I don't talk about it in detail, because people on the internet are weird. And like, if you go into detail, if you let people know who you're seeing, or whatever, like, folks are fucking, like, you don't wanna, the internet is filled with oddities. And, and people, I've had people make very uncomfortable decisions.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  A difference between being private and secret. Thank you.

• 24:15Robert Evans?

  But, this is a big difference. He's specifically saying, "No, no, no. I just lie about hating kids, because it gets, that way people don't look into what I really do with kids." You know, he's saying that. He admits that. And it's, it's an interview in like, 2000, but like, he's not completely hiding this shit.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  I am proud of Theroux for asking, "Are you a pedophile?"

• 24:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we'll talk about Louis a little bit more.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 24:40Robert Evans?

  There's a lot of, this is probably, I mean, I think definitely the most critiqueable moment of his career. I say that as a guy who's a general fan of the man's work. How he handles Saville is not, he's not proud of it. I'll say that much. We'll talk more about that later, though.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 24:56Robert Evans?

  But it's all this stuff, these rumors about his outrageous lifestyle and like, how promiscuous he is, which he does talk about. It's interpreted, again, that like, this is just consensual sex with adult women. But the fact that he's talking about this at all does nearly derail Jimmy becoming Sir Jimmy, right? This is something that continually is a problem for him for like, a decade is, well, we don't want to give a knighthood to a guy who talks about this kind of stuff. But old Maggie, she keeps pushing, you know? Like, she, she really is dedicated to this cause. And for an idea of how well-known, at the time, people are really aware that Thatcher is pushing for Jimmy to get a knighthood. I want to quote again from that article Farrell Kenny wrote for the UK Telegram.

• 25:40Robert Evans?

  "In a revealing 1982 cartoon in the sun, Saville is depicted as a gangster, complete with fedora and machine gun, with Margaret Thatcher showing him pictures of Arthur Skargill, as well as Labour politicians Michael Foot, Tony Bin, and Dennis Healy, with the caption, 'Bump off these lot and I'll see that you get a knighthood.'" So there's a recognition that Thatcher is using Saville. He is a, an important and central wing of her PR machine. And also that he's doing it to get a knighthood. People are, know this at the time. It's not, you know, hidden from anyone paying attention. In 1986, Margaret had her private secretary Nigel Wicks write to the Honours Committee saying that she was "most disappointed that Mr. Saville's name has not been recommended."

• 26:23Robert Evans?

  She, uh, he added, "She, Thatcher, wonders how many more times his name is to be pushed aside, especially in view of all the great work he had done for Stoke Mandeville." Right? He's, why, why are we delaying this guy getting a knighthood? Did you see he funded the Spinal Centre? That he hangs out at an awful lot? Like, a weird amount?

• 26:42Speaker 02

  They're doing great sleepovers. It's important work.

• 26:45Robert Evans?

  They're doing great sleep, but we'll talk about the sleepovers at Stoke Mandeville. But first, let's have a sleepover with our sponsors.

• 26:55Speaker 05

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• 27:26Robert Evans?

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• 27:49Speaker 06

  It is unknown if Dovato is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Dovato without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Dovato if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Dovato and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 28:25Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit dovato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 28:32Speaker 07

  This January, bare-knuckle fighting championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Brew's Cruise sails from Miami to the Bahamas aboard the Norwegian Jewel. Three straight days with pool-deck bare-knuckle fights in the Caribbean. Mess of parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings, and non-stop action. The lineup reveals coming soon. Cabins are disappearing fast, and the prices won't stay this low. Reserve your spot with just $200 down at BKFSEA.com.

• 29:06Robert Evans?

  And we're back. It turns out that's illegal. Okay. So we didn't have a sleepover with our sponsors. That's nice. I apologize.

• 29:14Robert Evans?

  So by this point, 1986 or so, the age crisis is still too big a deal and Jimmy's sex scandals, as people talk about them, are still too recent for him to get across the finish line and become a knight. Another problem for Savile comes when he's these, there's an interview about his days as a club promoter and he tells a lot of lurid stories about having to beat people within an inch of their life, or like the gang of thugs that he would sic on people and have them like savage folks, right? And that interview temporarily hurts his shot at getting a knighthood. But I've also read speculation, and I think this is a pretty good take on it, that the re, he's not, this isn't just like him being sloppy and like, oh, I shouldn't have done that because it caused problems for me. This is also part of the tactic that keeps him safe because by admitting, oh, I did

• 29:59Robert Evans?

  violent stuff in my past, I had guys beaten up, I beat up guys. That is basically copying to something illegal. Yeah. But it's also something that no one's going to care about because it was like 10 or 15 years ago and these guys are like bad guys, as he always frames it. They're hoodlums, they're provoking him, they're causing problems, you know? Not, they're not victim victims, right? But it's something illicit that he can admit to, that again, it throws people off the scent, right? Well, if he's open about this, there's probably nothing else going on, right? And it also, he can be fairly sure that like, if anyone wants to look into the dark side of Jimmy Savile, they can find some stuff. And it's stuff that they can talk about and be like, well, you know, Jimmy did this or

• 30:44Robert Evans?

  that, but it's not that bad, right? It's something that's forgivable bad. And that's interesting to me. That is. In 19, yeah. You know what else? Oh, wait, we already did that. Yep. Sorry. I guess we're just gonna, we're gonna raw dog this next part. This is bad. This is real bad. In 1988, the entire management board of Broadmoor Psychiatric Hospital, where Jimmy volunteered quite regularly, was suspended by the Department of Health under Thatcher appointee Ken Clark. The board basically shits. The psychiatric hospital was not well run. Things were costing too much. It was like in debt, the facilities, there were bad, there were problems with it. So the government is like, well, we need to shut down, get rid of the people running it now.

• 31:27Robert Evans?

  And the board that had been running Broadmoor is replaced by a task force appointed by the Thatcher administration, and the task force is run by Jimmy Savile.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:39Robert Evans?

  Now he's running a psychiatric hospital. Jimmy had started volunteering at Broadmoor in the 1960s, and in 1988, he got total control over what happened at the facility, or near total control. He's effectively running it. Per the Tribune, quote, "This, this decision was rubber stamped by junior health minister Edwina Currie, who wrote 'Attaboy' in her diaries on hearing Savile's plans for reform at the hospital, which included union busting, as Savile alleged that inflated overtime payments were rife among the unionized workforce. Currie later conceded that this was likely Savile blackmailing staff who could blow the whistle on his abuse." So Savile's like, now that I'm running things, you know, the real problem at this hospital, these damn unions, it's made it way too expensive.

• 32:23Robert Evans?

  All these guys, I got, I'm gonna, we need to fire a bunch of these people because they're, they're faking their.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I'm just so shocked that Savile would be anti-union.

• 32:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah, but we had to get rid of these guys. They're, they're stealing basically from the country by faking this overtime stuff. No, no, they weren't reporting me for raping patients. That had nothing to do with it. It was overtime fraud, right? So the Thatcher regime gets what it wants. They get to cut costs, they get to bust a union. Fucking Maggie loves that shit. And she's get Savile's doing, he's literally, like, I cannot overstate, this is not a side thing, she didn't happen to be friends with this guy. Jimmy Savile is a significant, meaningful part of Thatcherism. Like, he is a, a major and important part of her entire regime. Like, that, that has to be driven home to people, how key he is in this whole period of time in British political history.

• 33:14Robert Evans?

  And the fact that he's now running this hospital, he's able to fire basically anyone he wants to, who's, who's gonna speak up at anything, that just makes him even more fucking bulletproof to the people he's raping and molesting and abusing in other ways. Now, the fact that there were employees at all these facilities who saw Savile's behavior and tried to intervene, this doesn't just happen at Broadmoor, there are employees everywhere that he volunteers who try to say something. But it never goes anywhere. And it is important, though, that there that it is important to emphasize there are people trying to intervene, right? And that fact often gets lost in part because it doesn't work, but in part because a lot of powerful people have a vested interest in the fact that folks

• 33:58Robert Evans?

  tried to stop Jimmy being lost. Because by far, the best way that you can interpret this, that the public can interpret this, the British public specifically, can interpret Jimmy Savile and what happened in his crimes is, oh, this was just a monster who manipulated and hid in plain sight and he tricked everybody. We all fell for it. No one knew anything was going on.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody had any idea. Yeah.

• 34:23Robert Evans?

  People knew. Jimmy was allowed to rape and abuse people. Thatcher and everyone in her and everyone that we talked about who was a part of fucking Curry, I will say it right now, I'm not prone to those laws. I think Curry and Thatcher and everyone else involved in the decision to put him in that position in Broadmoor. If they didn't know he was outright raping kids, they knew he was raping people. They knew he was having, they would probably affirm just having sex with people who were underage.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  They knew what the fuck he was.

• 34:47Robert Evans?

  They knew what he was doing. And they knew they were putting him in a position where he could do it more. And they did it because it benefited them politically. They didn't know maybe the all the specifics, but they knew enough.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  They knew, they knew he wasn't a, he, they, they knew he was at minimum a sketchy creep.

• 35:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And they, they knew what they were doing.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:07Robert Evans?

  Thatcher knew what she was doing. Uh, Farrell Kenny writes, quote, "Read the NHS investigations into Savile, and there are numerous examples of everyday people with little power standing up to Savile, or at least doing what they could reasonably do within their small domain to protect those who are in their care. There are no such stories within the Thatcher government, only an elite who took him at face value time and time again." I cannot exaggerate the degree of deference and power that Jimmy was given over an entire psychiatric hospital. This is gonna fucking blow your mind. Broadmoor gives him a suite of rooms permanently that he is allowed to occupy and live in. It is a private apartment in the women's wing of the hospital.

• 35:52Robert Evans?

  They give him an apartment in the women's wing. And he has their allegations. He would just have victims delivered to his room sometimes. Or if he's the one taking the men for intake, he'll just bring them on up to his room and do whatever fucking sex crime he's gonna do. And then he'll put them wherever they need to go, right? He's, he's getting victims delivered to his apartment at the psychiatric hospital in the women's wing.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  This is psychotic. Also, it's not charity anymore. It's like he's, nobody was wondering why he wants to run this fucking place and like be there.

• 36:30Robert Evans?

  He's just a good man. He really likes helping out. These people, you know, he cares about them. No one else cares about these people, just Jimmy.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  What was the word we decided at the end? Loathsome.

• 36:42Robert Evans?

  Loathsome. Now, the website Investigative Psychiatry in analyzing several of these reports notes that clinic staff found the fact that he was given an apartment in the facility bizarre and inappropriate, but it was, quote, sanctioned from the top down as part of his task force role.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, who signed off on that? Who's signature, who's signature is on that, on, on that?

• 37:05Robert Evans?

  I mean, Curry's is, right?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm sure that's documented. There's a, there's a, the article has like a footnote there. I could, I could get more names for you. But this physical autonomy was the ultimate evidence of his symbolic power. He had colonized the hospital space to a point where he was no longer a guest, but a semi-permanent resident with more freedom of movement than many senior clinicians. Now-

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Motherfuckers out here colonizing a fucking women's psychiatric ward.

• 37:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's fucking nuts that they gave him a fucking apartment is crazy.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  I didn't, first of all, hospitals have, what?

• 37:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, it's fucking insane.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  When my mom had surgery, I had to beg for a cot. What the fuck?

• 37:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's crazy stuff. Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Hi, Mom.

• 37:50Robert Evans?

  Now, Stoke Mandeville was not his first major volunteer effort, but it makes him a fixture within the NHS and he receives offers to volunteer at and raise money for dozens of hospitals, including Leeds General, Great Ormond Street and Wheatfields Hospice. Modern investigations have turned up evidence that Saville sexually abused patients at each of these facilities. Per the UK Standard, his youngest victim was an eight-year-old boy who suffered a sexual assault at his hands. And again, we know there were younger victims that was, you know, at one point in time. As he aged, Saville seems to have preferred patients who were dying in hospice. The Standard recounts one story of an 11 to 12-year-old dying boy at Great Ormond who admitted shortly before passing that he had been touched inappropriately by Saville.

• 38:36Robert Evans?

  That's part of why we'll never know how many victims is he's specifically going after people who are dying and thus won't be around to complain or report. As he gets like older, that's a big thing he does.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Also, the, the psych hospital, it's like, oh, so you can immediately call into question the credibility of these victims?

• 38:59Robert Evans?

  He's crazy. He's crazy, you know?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  That might be one of the worst things you've ever read on this.

• 39:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's, it's pretty bad. It's pretty, like I said, this is like the, one of the only research at bits, binges I've been on a while that actually had me crying.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand.

• 39:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Uh, in 1990, the last year of Thatcher's time in office, she finally succeeded in getting Jimmy Savile knighted during that year's Queen's Birthday Honors. Uh, he was knighted for his charitable services. And from that moment on, Jimmy Savile OBE was now Sir Jimmy Savile. He received personal congratulations from all of his friends in the royal family. Prince Andrew, Prince Charles, Princess Diana, Sarah Ferguson, the Duchess of York, sends him a handmade card. Savile, for his part, was over the moon about his knighthood, and he made no great efforts to disguise why. He told journalist Lynn Barber in an interview conducted just after the ceremony,

• 39:58Robert Evans?

  "I had a lively couple of years with the tabloids sniffing about, asking round the corner shops, everything, thinking there must be something the authorities knew that they didn't. Whereas in actual fact, I've got to be the most boring geezer in the world because I ain't got no past. And so if nothing else, it was a ginormous relief when I got the knighthood because it got me off the hook." "Boy, getting this knighthood is great. It's gotta make it a lot easier for me to commit sex crimes without getting noticed. Thanks, the Queen. Off I go." He just says that.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Wow, the quotes are crazy.

• 40:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, the same year, 1990, he gets knighted by the Queen, because that's not enough, Savile also receives a papal knighthood. The Pope knights him too.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  I mean, apropos.

• 40:46Robert Evans?

  The Catholic Church and the British Royal Family, just no notes, guys.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  Wait, like Pope John Paul II?

• 40:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, JP II. Makes him a knight. Now, as an interesting side note, when all of this comes out and it becomes incredibly obvious to the entire world that Jimmy Savile's been a massive pedophile the entire time and abused god knows how many people, there's like people who are like, hey, should we like strip him of his knighthood and his papal knighthood? Maybe we like, that probably should happen, right? And that can't happen, actually. It's impossible to do that because there's no permanent register of knights, right? Once you die, you just drop off the list. You're no longer a knight. That's just like how being a knight works. So by the, when he died, he stopped being a knight. There's no way to like retroactively go back and

• 41:35Robert Evans?

  strip the honors. I actually prefer it that way. Like, I've seen people complain about this. I have no issue with this. I don't think either the Catholic Church or the British Royal Family should ever get to forget that they knighted this guy. I think he should be Sir Jimmy Savile forever.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  I was like, why? But that makes sense. I see your point, but also term limits, baby, term limits.

• 42:01Robert Evans?

  Not the first pedophile knight, not the last.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:04Robert Evans?

  Honestly, probably more pedophile knights than non-pedophile knights. If you're going historically.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 42:14Robert Evans?

  Good stuff. Um, yeah, and there's some, again, I don't think either of these institutions should ever get to, or the BBC should ever get to be free of the shame of having been affiliated with Jimmy Savile. But there are some very funny interviews with this representative of the Catholic Church, the Vatican spokesman at the time was Federico Lombardi, at the time that Savile died. And like, I found one interview with him in the AP that includes this line. He also said Savile would never have received the honor had allegations about his behavior been known. And Lombardi stressed the Vatican's firm condemnation of any type of sexual abuse against children. Oh, really? Oh, really? Is that so, Fede, huh? Vatican's never supported sexual abuse

• 42:59Robert Evans?

  of children. That's good. I was just reading about how 200,000 such or so, like, French kids are known to have been raped by Catholic priests. But, uh, good, good to know. You guys take a firm line on that stuff. Great. Like, I know because the Catholic Church and this current Pope have had some pretty good takes on certain things happening politically recently. And, you know, that's good. I'm glad the Catholic Church is especially pushing back on our administrations, like nightmarish genocidal immigration policies.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  And war crimes.

• 43:26Robert Evans?

  And I don't hold every member of the Church as responsible for these, the things that were done. But we shouldn't forget what the Catholic Church is historically, and what they did, and what they enabled. And this is part of that. It's a little part of that, given the grand scheme of those crimes, but it's part of it, right? Good stuff. It's probably time for an ad break.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah?

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:52Robert Evans?

  Let's take five.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  And then just, just trauma dump it on, buddy.

• 43:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 44:35Robert Evans?

  If you're living with HIV, do learn about Devoto. Devoto is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devoto was right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Devoto is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Devoto.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  It is unknown if Devoto is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Devoto without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Devoto if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking Dofetolide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devoto and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 45:29Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 45:36Speaker 07

  This January, bare-knuckle fighting championship takes over the ocean. The inaugural Brew's Cruise sails from Miami to the Bahamas aboard the Norwegian Jewel. Three straight days with pool-decked bare-knuckle fights in the Caribbean. Mess of parties, beach events, DJs, cigars, tequila tastings, and non-stop action. The lineup reveals coming soon. Cabins are disappearing fast, and the prices won't stay this low. Reserve your spot with just $200 down at BKFSEA.com.

• 46:09Robert Evans?

  Okay, we're back, and we're just gonna power through the rest of the horrible things.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:14Robert Evans?

  In 1990, in the years right before he was knighted, Saville is known, and people who are part, or were around the royal family, noted that he acted as a fixer for Charles and Diana's marriage. When they started having, like, marriage issues, he's brought in to be like their, their relationship coach, basically.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  The guy who's never been in a relationship?

• 46:32Robert Evans?

  Never been in a relationship.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 46:34Robert Evans?

  And he's, he's-

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Whose bright idea was that?

• 46:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, I think it was, it was Prince Charles. Although I think Princess Di was fine with it. Like, they both seemed to have liked him, like, genuinely liked and admired him.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  That's like the only thing they've ever agreed on, is that Jimmy Savile is a good guy? Fucking weird guy.

• 46:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's kinda how it seems to me.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  It's really fucking weird.

• 46:54Robert Evans?

  Per the Guardian, quote, Savile is understood to have visited Prince Charles's official London residence several times in the late 1980s when he was acting as a kind of marriage counselor between Charles and Princess Diana. And there's a lot of, there's been a lot of like the British equivalent of like a public records request, both around Thatcher and around the royal family and Savile. And we've gotten some stuff, some of what I've talked about came out through those records requests. A lot of his conversations and his correspondence with Thatcher is still basically like censored or whatever. It's like, I guess, sensitive or whatever. So we don't know, like, there's actually a surprising amount that's been redacted of his relationship with Thatcher, which I'm very curious to know.

• 47:37Robert Evans?

  And there's similar things going on with the royal family. But what we do know, based on letters and documents that have come out since his death, is that Savile is basically the volunteer PR specialist for the royal family. He's one of the first people they call when there's a scandal.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  What?

• 47:52Robert Evans?

  Well, part of the thing is, fucking Prince Charles really trusts him. Because, as I noted, Jimmy's like a former coal miner from the north. So he's like a down home country boy, basically, but in, you know, England.

• 48:06Speaker 01

  And was buddies with Lord Manbatten, who was like a father figure to Charles.

• 48:10Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's all that too.

• 48:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he was friends with Mountbatten and also he's a, he, Charles sees him as like a representative of the common man, right? He's not gonna actually talk to real poor people, but like, he can talk to Jimmy and Jimmy can tell him how commoners think, right? And how commoners will react to things. So you trust Jimmy more than you trust your fancy went to Eton or whatever, you know, PR representatives who talk the right way. No, no, no, Jimmy knows how the common man works, right? He can tell us what we should say. Based on interviews with Dicky Arbiter, who was media relations liaison for the Prince and Princess of Wales at the time, Savile cut an upsetting figure, even within the rarefied world of the royal household. Quote, "He would walk into the office and do the rounds of the young ladies, taking

• 48:56Robert Evans?

  their hands and rubbing his lips all the way up their arms if they were wearing short sleeves. If it was summer and their arms were bare, his bottom lip would curl out and he would run it up their arms. This was at St. James's place. The women were in their mid to late twenties doing typing and secretarial work."

• 49:11Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 49:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, gross.

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Ew.

• 49:15Robert Evans?

  Deeply bad. You'll hear about this a lot. This is an important tactic of his, what he's doing. The whole, these, when he's casually meeting women in the world, these are adult women, but he'll do these like really exaggerated like Gomez Adams, you know, style, like kissing all the way up their arm gestures, right? He does this a lot. You'll also find people talking about this in like these analyses that different institutions like Broadmoor and Stokman devil published, right? About how Saville would do stuff like this when he would meet women and often like meet women generally that he's not actually abusing or anything. And this is an important point. As summarized on the website investigative psychiatry's write up, quote, Saville also

• 49:58Robert Evans?

  used bizarre and flamboyantly inappropriate public behavior towards women such as extravagant greetings and kissing up their arms to their lips as a calculated method to scope their reactions and gauge the level of resistance he might face. If he does this and you don't turn away or pull away at all and you let him get all the way up to your lips, he knows, okay, if I want to, this is someone who's more vulnerable. Right? That's, that's the interpretation that people have made of this behavior and I think it's probably accurate. It makes sense. There's a lot of reports of this.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  I would have been out the door.

• 50:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He should have gotten hit in the face every time. But he's doing it, again, this is the weird behavior that, oh, Jimmy's like that with everybody. He's just really like, no, no, no. He's not, this isn't being sexually inappropriate. He's like that with everyone. That's just how he is, you know, to women.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  Also, if you're being sexually inappropriate with the ladies that are of age, it's also like another strange form of cover.

• 50:55Robert Evans?

  Yep, yep, exactly, exactly. And it works very well for that purpose. In 1991, Saville sat down for a BBC radio interview on the show In The Psychiatrist's Chair with Dr. Anthony Clare. Saville made some statements that would subsequently become quite famous. For one, he claimed to have no emotions. Quote, "That would make me bad news for a psychiatrist or a psychologist because there's just nothing to find. What you see is what there is." Now, That's not true on its face. Many of Jimmy's victims have written about the rages that he would drop into if he were denied or hindered in any way. This is a guy who got violent and could get violent and who who got very angry when he was angry. But the fact that he says this, that he claims, "Oh, I don't have emotions. I don't really

• 51:38Robert Evans?

  feel things," is part of the mythic wall that he's building around himself to protect himself. If Jimmy doesn't like kids, there's no reason to explore his relationship with kids. If he has no emotions, there's nothing to figure out about his inner life. Stop looking, right? That's why he's doing this. And the only thing that's really remarkable to me is how well this all works. Part of why, and this is something I'm not super well qualified to say, to talk about, but it's a thing I've seen written about, is that British culture had and still has, for generations, celebrated a specific kind of what were often called, quote, "uniquely British eccentrics," right? There's a long, proud tradition of like weirdos in public life in in British history that is up to

• 52:22Robert Evans?

  a point celebrated. If you get famous enough for something, then the fact that you're like a weirdo stops being a thing that you get like mocked for and like something people celebrate, right? It's just kind of this aspect of, it's not, Britain's not the only place where this happens, but it's known as like a very British thing. And in fact, in Thatcher's, like her announcement of his knighthood, she talks about him as like, "He's one of the great British eccentrics. You know, sometimes our wonderful little island, it produces these splendid weirdos, you know, and we like to celebrate our weirdos in England." That's kind of the idea, right? Now, it's been noted by several of these analyses that that I've read and seen summarized that like this whole persona, this thing, is

• 53:04Robert Evans?

  calculated. Like, he is, he understands that there's this attitude that like, well, often a lot of like great public figures in British history are these eccentrics. So if I'm just an eccentric, then I'm not dangerous, right? And it discourages people from looking into me, right? It's a, it's a boundary testing mechanism. That's how some of these reports will frame it, right? He's seeing how much, quote unquote, "calculated oddity," is one of the terms used, an institution will tolerate. And that helps him see, can I violate more rules, right? Okay, I did this thing, which is like harmless, but you're not supposed to do it. Did they let me? Okay, that means I can do a little more. That means I can

• 53:46Robert Evans?

  do a little more, right? That's how he's, he's, he's working. This is very methodical, right? And that's why we call these people predators, you know, and there's a difference. There's an important difference. And I, I don't want this to come across as minimizing the other thing, but when you're talking about like, um, some like famous musician who statutory commits statutory rape on like a 13 or 14 year old girl because like she's around and he doesn't give a fuck. And he's being provided with, with, with girls, right? You know, he shows up to do it and he's provided girls and he doesn't care how old they are. And that happens at a point in this musician's life. That's like a bad thing. There should be accountability for that. It's not okay. It's a real problem.

• 54:28Robert Evans?

  If that doesn't ever recur outside, if that person is not continuing to go after people of that age, that there's a difference between that and predatory behavior where you're actively going out of your way to find victims and to groom victims and to groom institutions to provide you with victims. These are, these are both really bad things, but they're different levels, right? I think that's, that's, it's important to see the difference between someone who does not care morally about what they're doing as long as they get to like satisfy their urges and someone whose brain works in such a way that they are constantly looking for holes in organizations and institutions and people that they can use in order to gain

• 55:11Robert Evans?

  leverage so that they can commit harm, you know?

• 55:14Speaker 02

  To the point where they're doing charities so that they can hurt people. Yes, that's a different breed.

• 55:19Robert Evans?

  There's a real different breed. It's an escalation.

• 55:24Robert Evans?

  So this scoping behavior, which is mentioned in the Broadmoor report, talking about his interactions with women is a really important thing to understand because like these are like the fact that he's doing reconnaissance is noteworthy. And there's a, there's a good line in that investigative psychiatry write-up that, that reads, quote, "He was constantly probing for the point where Jimmy being Jimmy ended and Sir Jimmy Savile began." I think that's, that's an important thing to note. The term grooming is usually deployed to refer to something abusers do to their victims. But what I like about that article is that it talks about institutional grooming, right? The grooming of these different hospitals and organizations that allow him to get access to his victims.

• 56:09Robert Evans?

  Quote, "He identified the specific needs of an institution such as fundraising in the NHS or industrial mediation in Broadmoor and fulfilled them to create a debt of gratitude. This symbolic power then allowed him to operate in a clinical vacuum." So this is a complex, multi-part process. He's putting a lot of thought into this and a lot of effort. Once he's got an in, I'm sorry.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  No, it mirrors the Epstein thing in a way, too. Like whether the charity and also the fact that, I don't know if he was, but people think he's a spy or whatever, that's the point. That's the level of institutional grooming he's doing. That's super interesting.

• 56:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so, once he's got an in at a facility that he wants to be in at, either because his fundraising saves the hospital or whatever, or because he's been appointed to a task force, or, you know, however he gets in, Saville will start dressing, when he's working at these hospitals, like a member of the clinical staff. He wears a white coat, right? He helps in aspects of patient care. He's helping during intake. And this, he's not just grooming his victims, he's grooming the staff to accept him as legitimate. And the fact that, and often, most of the time, he's not abusing the patient. Most of the time, when he's acting as an orderly, he is just doing orderly work. And that grooms the patients to, no one's on guard when Jimmy walks in their room. He's supposed to be

• 57:35Robert Evans?

  there, you know? There is some evidence, not direct, but like you can tell it by inference, that during the 90s, Jimmy Savile continued to participate in parties and events where teenagers were provided as basically sex toys for the rich and powerful. Petronella Wyatt, a British journalist who once had an affair with Boris Johnson, wrote an article for The Spectator, which is a conservative magazine, in which she relates some of the things she experienced while socializing with this crowd in the years after Sir Jimmy's knighthood. Back in the 1990s, I used to see teenage girls with eyes the color of vervine at some of the extravagant parties I was invited to. Looking back, I have a fair idea of why they were there, but it never occurred to me to ask their ages or protest their presence. Was I complicit?

• 58:18Robert Evans?

  I'm like, yeah, yeah, you were like, definitely. That's what that means.

• 58:25Robert Evans?

  She doesn't allege that Jimmy was providing the girls at these parties. In fact, she doesn't interrogate how that's happening at all, but we know he was aware or he was at many of these events, right? And we know he was in a position to his access to psychiatric hospitals and his access to like the Duncroft approved school for girls could have allowed him to provide girls to such events. We know he took girls out of facilities like Duncroft and took them to like BBC to see film. And we know, so we know he's taking girls that he is raping and taking them to secondary and tertiary locations from hospitals and from like the approved school. Is it so crazy to think that maybe he used his access to

• 59:10Robert Evans?

  provide girls to parties for his rich and famous friends? I can't prove that. Is that such a crazy thing to think might have happened? It's not a crazy leap. No. I think it's pretty likely that something like that went on. I might even say that at this point, the burden of proof would be on the attendees of those parties to prove that nothing like that happened because of what we know happened. Right. Now, I've noted a few times in these episodes that several friends of Jimmy's, including Gary Glitter, were brought down by child molestation scandals, but Jimmy remained untainted throughout the rest of his life and career. Some of this was surely due to his royal connections. Savile was invited to Prince Charles's 40th birthday,

• 59:52Robert Evans?

  and when Jimmy turned 80 in 2006, he received a box of Cuban cigars and a set of cufflinks from the now, well, now he's king, he wasn't king in 2006, but from Prince Charles with a note saying, "Nobody will ever know what you have done for this country. This is to go some way," and thanking you for that. Hmm.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  He's stupid or creepy, or both?

• 1:00:14Robert Evans?

  He's probably just talking about all the marriage counseling and the PR stuff. Probably not worth looking into. Probably fine. Probably fine.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Ew.

• 1:00:22Robert Evans?

  Prince Charles probably didn't know anything about, you know, all the rape and stuff. King Charles, definitely innocent, for sure. For sure. It was just Prince Andrew was the only bad one. And Lord Mountbatten. Only bad ones. You know? We're good. Anyway, cool stuff. Princess Di unfortunately remained friends with Savile for the remainder of her life, so far as I can tell. She traveled with him to Stoke Mandeville and other hospitals for charitable events, and she seems to have held him in high regard. I don't know. I don't know how much of that was set dressing. I don't know her inner life. I don't know what she would have been aware of. Probably, I assume Savile would have tried to hide the details of what he was doing. But again, enough stuff was obvious. We've quoted so much from him being interviewed.

• 1:01:07Robert Evans?

  She can't have not known something. She has to have been a little aware, at the very least, that something wasn't right with this guy. I don't know. I can't say for sure. In the late 90s and early 2000s, Jimmy was no longer a massive TV star in his own right, but he was now famous for being famous. And he was regularly trotted out in documentaries and TV shows. He's a big guest star in this period of time in a lot of like BBC shows. In 1995, the journalist and TV host Andrew Neil has him on for an episode of "Is This Your Life?", which I think is like supposed to celebrate, you know, different kind of famous people in British life, right?

• 1:01:51Robert Evans?

  So Neil has Savile on for a friendly interview, which includes some cheeky questions about his romantic history and his past as a wrestler. And even then, when he's being interviewed about his life on TV in 1995, Jimmy can't avoid throwing in some side remarks hinting at his crimes. So here's a segment from that episode where he's talking, Andrew's asking him about his time as a wrestler.

• 1:02:12Speaker 08

  You used to be a wrestler, didn't you? I still am. Are you? I'm feared in every girls' school in this country.

• 1:02:23Robert Evans?

  Great. Got a lot of laughs. That crowd went wild. I do like the look on, because you, after he says that, one of the, the people who's on the show with Neil is like a, a black woman who's like, I, I, assuming some sort of journalist or presenter, and she has this like, "Oh, you just said that, huh?" Look, I don't know anything else about that lady, but her eyes say a lot. Sure does. But you can, I mean, you can just hear in the joke how casual he is about it, right? Like, just the audio of it says enough, that the, the, how casually he jokes about wrestling children, a girl's school, those are kids, and the uproarious laughter from the audience.

• 1:03:05Robert Evans?

  Very funny. Ha ha, Jimmy. Yes, it's so funny how you joke about molesting little girls. We love it here. In the year 2000, one of Britain's best documentarians, Louis Theroux, published a documentary on Jimmy and the flat that Jimmy had originally purchased for his mother. One of the shortcomings of these episodes is we're not nearly going into enough detail about how weird Jimmy is about his mom, but it's clearly the only person he ever loves. And when she passes on, like, and she had, but, but in 2000, when Louis Theroux shows up at his flat to this documentary, Jimmy's mom had died 27 years earlier, and he still kept her room exactly the way it had been the day she died.

• 1:03:46Robert Evans?

  Her clothing was like, like shrink wrapped in plastic, but still folded in her wardrobe. As I noted earlier, Theroux does probe some of the rumors around Jimmy in a, you know, a legally safe way, like, starting when he asks him, like, "Why did you claim to hate children?" And Jimmy's like, "Well, it stops the tabloids from looking into stuff." And after that line, Louis asks, "Is that basically so the tabloids don't pursue this whole, is he or isn't he a pedophile line?" And Savile replied, "Oh, I. How do they know whether or not I am? How does anybody know whether I am? Nobody knows whether I am or not. I know I'm not. That's my policy, and it's work to dream."

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Cool riddle, bro. Jesus Christ.

• 1:04:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, fun, fun stuff. Now, in a write up on all this, the UK Mirror notes, quote, "Louis had attempted to report Savile for abuse after the production, but the report was not followed up on. He claimed that he attempted to report him in 2001 after a female came forward and claimed that she to have been one of Savile's girlfriends when she was 15." So Louis doesn't do nothing, but I gotta say, like, and I've been a fan of the guy for most of my adult life. He had a big influence on how I interview people, how I approach stuff as a journalist. I really do have a lot of admiration for him. And particularly, he's very good at not giving, at getting people, not just getting people to talk, giving them enough rope to hang themselves, but pressing them on things that are hard to press on, that are awkward and like uncomfortable.

• 1:05:12Robert Evans?

  Like, that's a thing Louis has made a career on doing, and he doesn't do nearly enough, considering what he must have known. And one of the things that frustrates me is after Savile dies, even knowing all this, even having allegedly reported him in 2000, 2001, Louis makes a big show of publicly mourning Savile, of calling him basically a Great Britain, right after he dies, up until the allegations spill out. And I think it's just, my guess would be, once he dies, there's, there's, first off, there was massive immediate public mourning. It doesn't come out immediately. Like, he has a huge, he has basically a state funeral. The Royal Marines are there escorting his fucking gold casket.

• 1:05:55Robert Evans?

  So there's a big, the whole country is mourning him. I think, number one, Louis probably didn't want to be the only person being like, I think this guy was a pedophile. He's a BBC personality, is probably professional pressure. He just doesn't, and I, I shouldn't be focusing on Louis more than all of these other editors that we've talked about, because he did more than nothing, but it just wasn't enough. And that's all I'll say. I don't think this is like damning of him into perpetuity. From my understanding, Louis regrets not doing more. He's talked pretty openly about like, the fact that he wishes he had done a better job. And that's life, so I'll, I'll go on from there. But I think it's worth noting.

• 1:06:38Robert Evans?

  In 2007, one of the Duncroft girls Savile abused went to police in Surrey and reported him. The police ultimately concluded there was not enough evidence to pursue a case. Later investigation has made it clear that the evidence was mishandled and the department was pushed to avoid following up. To the end of his life, Savile maintained friendships with influential members of the Yorkshire Police, hosting what he called his Friday Morning Club, in which he'd have coffee with various senior inspectors and the like. It's like him having coffee with a bunch of cops every Friday. These years, really, at the end of his life, once all of his pedophile friends go to prison, his primary social group is cops, who I'm guessing might also have been pedophiles.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Or at least covering up for him.

• 1:07:19Robert Evans?

  Certainly covering up for him. We know they did that. Was Jimmy maybe using his access to teenage girls to provide police officers with access to teenage girls, a thing he kind of insinuated doing previously? I don't know. Someone should look into that, maybe. Jimmy's influence was such that in 2008, the Yorkshire Police picked him to voice several West Yorkshire Talking Street signs, giving advice to locals on, of all things, crime prevention.

• 1:07:46Speaker 01

  Great. 2008, cool.

• 1:07:50Robert Evans?

  2008. But in the aughts, stories kept spreading online about Jimmy. A victim had come forward in 2003, and a complaint in 2008 was reported on by The Sun. So it's starting, this wall he's got between him and the media is starting to falter and flicker out, even by that point in time. In 2009, Jimmy was interviewed by police in Surrey. He set up the complaint, "That's why I have up in Yorkshire, where I live in Leeds, a collection of senior police persons who come to see me socially. I give them all my weirdo letters and they take them back to the station and say, 'Oh, have you seen what Jimmy's got today?'" When the police asked whether Savile gives them to the police, so basically, he says this, and he's being interviewed, and they're like, "Well, do you give these letters to the police to investigate?"

• 1:08:33Robert Evans?

  Savile then responds, "No, no, not investigate them, no, not to do anything with them, but if anything happens to me." So he's basically insinuating, "Oh, I just give these to the police in case some crazy fan murders me," right? What's actually happening here is he's, whenever he has a problem, whenever he thinks he's gonna get reported on, he has his cop friends he goes to, and they were pretty good at making it go away. Jimmy Savile was able to outrun justice his entire life, but he did not outrun death. He dies on October 29th, 2011. Once he was gone, his power to stop such investigations came to a sputtering end. In less than a year, he went from publicly mourned and buried in a gold coffin escorted by the Marines to having his headstone ground down to rubble.

• 1:09:17Robert Evans?

  They removed the big headstone he's got, which says his epitaph was, "It was nice while it lasted." And like, they have to, in order to stop people from like, defacing the cemetery, basically, they have to grind it into fucking crumbs. I think they should just let people deface it, but, you know. Numerous police and institutional investigations are launched, and by December of 2012, just a year after his death, the number of alleged victims had reached 450. That is a year after he dies. Where are we now, in terms of total victims known? Well, I'm gonna quote from a 2014 article in The Guardian. "The BBC will be plunged into a major crisis with the publication of a damning review,

• 1:09:59Robert Evans?

  expected next month, that will reveal its staff turned a blind eye to the rape and sexual assault of up to a thousand girls and boys by Jimmy Savile in the corporation's changing rooms and studios." Dame Janet Smith, a former Court of Appeal judge who previously led the inquiry into the murders by Dr. Harold Shipman, will say in her, in her report, that the true number of victims of Savile's sexual proclivities may never be known, but that his behavior had been recognized by BBC executives who took no action. I want to really highlight something. We know he rapes and molests at least a thousand boys and girls in BBC changing rooms and studios. I've seen this misreported as a thousand victims. That's just a thousand victims in BBC property.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  We're not even talking about the homes and the hospitals and yes.

• 1:10:52Robert Evans?

  Thousands.

• 1:10:53Speaker 02

  Also, the people, original victims are old as shit by now, and most of them are dead.

• 1:10:59Robert Evans?

  Probably have died.

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:02Robert Evans?

  And he's specifically going after people who are probably statistically going to die earlier because they're folks who run into trouble with the law. They're folks who have mental health or physical health problems, you know?

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  The children that he assaulted when they were in the hospital for terminal illnesses, it's one of the worst things I've ever heard.

• 1:11:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Yep.

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  What did he die from?

• 1:11:25Robert Evans?

  Oh, being an old piece of shit. I forget. Like, he dies in his home peacefully.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  That sucks. I was hoping, I was hoping it hurt.

• 1:11:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Robert Evans?

  I don't have that for you. I do have one little bit of satisfaction, schadenfreude, or whatever, from earlier in his life. And I, I, I mentioned there's a wrestling story that I didn't tell earlier that I wanted to save for until now, right? Because this is pretty bleak and I don't have a good Jimmy got his comeuppance. But there is one time where he got a little bit of punishment for being a giant monster. So we're going to talk about that now. So during his wrestling days, there's this wrestler named Exotic Adrian Street, who like, he's, he's like, he's one, he's a heel, right? He's somebody fans love to hate. I think he's like a guy who dresses like very flamboyantly, you know, in order to, and that's part of like his, ah, this fucking evil like weirdo, right?

• 1:12:20Robert Evans?

  And so he's matched with Savile at some point. And he would let, and I, and I found all this in an article for Wales Online. So it was Wales Online that talked to Adrian Street about this. Quote, "The promoters were trying to put Savile across as a bit of a tough guy in those days, and they were trying to get other proper wrestlers to throw their matches with him. It was all part of some big stupid gimmick," says Street. "And when I found out I was up against him next, I wasn't very happy, not least because I'd just beaten world lightweight champion George Kid at Nottingham Ice Rink the night before. In fact, I'd put him in the hospital." So when it was, it suggested like, hey, why don't, you know, you're going to fight this DJ, well, let's have it in in a draw. That'll be good for everybody. And Street's like, fuck that shit. Quote, "His cronies were telling me, don't underestimate Jim. He's trained with the Royal Marines."

• 1:13:06Robert Evans?

  But I was having none of it. I kicked his legs from underneath him, so he hit the deck. Then I picked him up by his hair, held him upside down and dropped him on his skull. Then when I looked down at my hands, I realized they were covered in hair, savels. I'd torn huge clumps out of his scalp. I absolutely crucified the bloke. And when I spoke to my wife afterwards, she said I'd looked like a hungry fox going after a chicken. Saville never returned to the wrestling ring after that, and I never clapped eyes on him again. Like, that's, that's the, that's the story. And he did tell Wales Online, "Had I known then the full extent of what I know about him now, I'd have given him an even bigger beating, were that physically possible."

• 1:13:43Robert Evans?

  So at least we've got that.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Okay, that was, that was a little treat we needed.

• 1:13:48Robert Evans?

  You guys deserved something.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Thanks for the sprinkle.

• 1:13:53Robert Evans?

  Thank you, Adrian Street, for beating the shit out of Jimmy Savile.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  God, it's so, it's so fucked up that this man lived to what, 2011, did you say, or 2012?

• 1:14:02Robert Evans?

  Yeah, 2011. He dies late 2011, like October.

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he, that, that, all of the survivors of this man, which there were thousands.

• 1:14:12Robert Evans?

  Thousands of victims.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Did not get to have any sort of justice while he was alive.

• 1:14:19Robert Evans?

  No.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  They did not get to confront him. Nobody believed them. The libel laws fucked them over. The BBC is despicable.

• 1:14:32Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Royal Family is the Royal Family.

• 1:14:36Robert Evans?

  Yep.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  It's just unfathomly gross that this, this man was one of the worst pedophiles of maybe all time. And

• 1:14:47Robert Evans?

  Of the, one of the pedoest of the files, for sure.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  And was, you know, knighted by both the Royal Family and the Catholic Church. And was

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Given, I don't know, there's certain thoughts that things that are just like, you know, impregnating minors and the fact that he was given an apartment at that girl's.

• 1:15:09Robert Evans?

  Fucking Broadmoor, no, at the, at the girls ward of the psychiatric hospital.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  Psychiatric hospital.

• 1:15:17Robert Evans?

  You were saying Courtney?

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Sorry, so many people just like let this happen and let him be this person.

• 1:15:23Robert Evans?

  Tons of them.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's disgusting. And Robert, kind of brilliant storytelling in episode one, when you give us the graphic horrible scene, because everything we've been through after, I just keep remember, because it's easy to kind of gloss over the scope of it.

• 1:15:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  And when you think about that times 5,000, 10,000, it's like.

• 1:15:47Robert Evans?

  However many, yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  We have no idea.

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 1:15:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Whew. At least, at least we know who to really blame for the Princess Diana, Prince Charles divorce, the guy giving the marriage advice.

• 1:16:02Robert Evans?

  Jimmy Savile, he's, he's who's to blame, surely.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Maybe if somebody else, we could, those, those, those kids could have stayed in love. It wasn't, you know, for all of Charles's hateful infidelity.

• 1:16:12Robert Evans?

  That was surely the only thing wrong.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  Only thing wrong.

• 1:16:16Robert Evans?

  With their relationship.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyways, Corrie, you want to plug your book for us?

• 1:16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I need a shower, but um, check out my book. It's called Girl Gone Wild. It is about, it's a coming of age story about trying to make it in Hollywood and it is a feminist story that you definitely need after this. Jesus Christ.

• 1:16:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's a great idea. Why don't you all enjoy that? And I will cook up something horrible for you, but honestly, probably a lot less horrible than this next week. Um, bye.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Well, bye.

• 1:16:58Speaker 09

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedi.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

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