Part Two: Heinrich Schliemann: The Archaeologist Who Destroyed Troy

Robert concludes the thrilling story of how Heinrich Schlieman destroyed a crucial piece of our shared human heritage after purchasing a child bride. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the very worst people in all of history. And this week, we're talking about the very worst archaeologists in all of history, or at least, I mean, particularly a guy who's going to be on the shortlist for the most destructive archaeologists ever, Heinrich Schliemann. But before we talk more about old Heine, let's bring back our wonderful guest for this week, Kristin Conger, host of Unladylike and Conspiracy. She wrote two great podcasts. Kristin, welcome back. How are you doing?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I'm great. Thank you so much for having me back and excited to learn more about this wretched archaeologist.

• 0:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's, he's about to get like really wretched. And he's about to basically purchase a wife, which is always a good time in, in old timey stories.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Don't like that phrasing.

• 0:54Robert Evans?

  Well, yeah, it's not great, Sophie. It's not great. But we'll hear about that very soon.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:02Speaker 02

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• 1:06Robert Evans?

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• 2:08Speaker 04

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 2:23Speaker 05

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• 2:28Speaker 04

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• 3:15Speaker 07

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• 3:29Speaker 04

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• 4:07Robert Evans?

  So Heinrich Schliemann is going to make his very first attempt. And we left him off. He'd visited Italy. He'd watched, spent a couple of weeks watching an excavation in Pompeii. And he'd been like, this is really cool. I want to do archaeology. Does it have to take so long? Does like, it have to take a long time to dig things up? What if there were a faster, lazier way? Right? So he's going to make his first attempt at a dig, really just a few months or weeks after that. And he has, again, very little understanding. He hasn't taken any classes. He just kind of watched a guy and decided he was too slow. So later on in that same 1868 vacation, he travels to Greece, and he goes to the summit of Mount Athos, which is in like, the main Greek peninsula. And he decides, for no real

• 4:51Robert Evans?

  reason, that this had been Odysseus's castle, right? Like, he sees, finds some, like, ruins, like a buried wall. And he's like, this must have been Odysseus's home. There's no reason to believe this. But one thing, Odysseus came from, what scholars will refer to it as Homer's Ithaca, right? There is an island of Ithaca in the Greek area. And Homer was probably writing about that island, right? Odysseus was probably supposed to have been the king of that island of Ithaca. But we don't 100% know. You know, there's some debate about that. And a lot of that debate comes from Heinrich Schliemann. Because Heinrich is going to say, no, he didn't come from the island that's named the same as like, the

• 5:32Robert Evans?

  island in the story. He came from this mountain because I found some stuff there. That's really all it's based on. There's no reason for him to think Odysseus was here.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Classic Heinrich.

• 5:41Robert Evans?

  There's no evidence that Odysseus was a real person. Yeah, just classic Heinrich. He's like, must have been Odysseus's house, because I found some stuff in the ground. So he decides he's going to put together a dig to excavate, like, whatever is at this site. He has to leave to do this. And when he comes back, he can't find the walls. And we don't know if he actually ever found walls. He had been pretty sure he had. But he winds up digging, and all he digs up is like, some funeral urns, which is kind of fucked up to dig up. You should probably leave those where they are. Man, I don't know. What do you need those for? And he does eventually find the ruins of a small building that, who knows, might have dated back to ancient Greece. We don't know, because Heinrich does no work to preserve, like, the age of anything he's working with. And whatever real value his

• 6:24Robert Evans?

  find might have had was surely ruined by the fact that he insisted this, this like, small shack must have been like, Odysseus's palace? And it's like, no, that's just like a, like, maybe of a bar, a small barn or something. Like, we have no idea. But there's no reason to think it was a palace. It's not big. Now that he's found something wonderful, Heinrich begins increasingly trying to insert himself into scientific conversations about ancient history. He's writing letters. He's reaching out to these other, to these real archaeologists and historians. He's trying to publish stuff. And he's not really taken seriously at this point, but he is trying to be. And in regards to Troy, he becomes what's known at the time as a realist, right? The realists in regards to Troy are people

• 7:05Robert Evans?

  who believe the Iliad is written about a real war that really happened, right? There's debate about how much of the poem is true, but there was some real war that this, it's all based on, right? And this is still debated today. At the time, I think the realist position is more or less the dominant one, that like, yeah, there was some kind of real conflict that that's all based on. But at the time, Heinrich's idea is not the dominant accepted one. There's a lot of people who'll be like, no, it was just, it's a complete fable. What's funny is that the ancient peoples, and remember, Homer composed his poems centuries after the Trojan War would have occurred, knew where Troy was. And in fact, it was a tourist attraction, right? Homer is super popular throughout the whole, like, later classical

• 7:49Robert Evans?

  periods and during the Roman Empire. And for a lot, a big chunk of like, Greek, you know, classical history and all of Roman history, Troy is a tourist trap. Like, they know kind of, like, where the ruins are, and people will visit to see the sites of the Trojan War. Now, any real walls from that era of the war were largely buried, but there were these big burial mounds. And there were burial mounds from like, regular people who had lived in the area for a long time. But like, Roman tourists would declare them, oh, this is the burial mound of Achilles, doing the same thing that Schliemann did. There's no reason to believe that, right? Other than that, you can make money, like, taking gullible tourists to see. Do you want to see where Achilles is buried?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  It's the first Star Tours, Star Maps.

• 8:34Robert Evans?

  It was so easy back then. Yes, Star Maps. Yeah, that's a, I don't know, Robert De Niro's house. Sure.

• 8:43Robert Evans?

  So by the late 1800s, though, the site of Troy had fallen into disrepair and it had been that way for like well over a thousand years. So even though during like during the classical period, the Roman Empire, it's a well-known tourist site. By the 1800s, there's doubt as to whether or not a Troy had ever even existed. Because all that's left of it is like a big mound on a chunk of the Turkish coast, right?

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 9:05Robert Evans?

  So in between jaunts overseas and times studying at various universities, Heinrich kept up a luminous correspondence and was often a huge dick to his family. His elderly father asked for money and Heinrich did give him the money, but in the letter before he gave it over, he asserted, "I expect you to use the money in establishing yourself in a manner befitting the father of Heinrich Schliemann."

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Whoa!

• 9:26Robert Evans?

  He's not like famous. He's just, yeah. "My father can't look poor? You reflect on me." Now, Schliemann is not a US citizen at this point in his life, though he would soon become one. But biographer Leo Dool notes that he, quote, "considered himself a citizen of the United States and broadcast his civis Americana sum to the world long before he ever assumed title to it." That book describes him as "American to a fault," which is how I would describe myself as well, unfortunately. Like, yeah, that's it. You got me. Yeah. He also note, that also notes, quote, "His bigotries towards non-European races were staggering." And it gives several examples of Schliemann quotes from his letters that include, "The

• 10:10Robert Evans?

  laziness of Negroes is beyond description and the physiognomy of the Californian Indian is the most stupid and ugly I have ever seen in my life." So doesn't have a big influence on his life, but super racist. Like, doesn't have a big influence on this story, but remember Heinrich, big, big old racist asshole, right?

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Love it when people-

• 10:28Robert Evans?

  He's a German in the 1850s, 60s.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  When they whip out some physiognomy, you know, the head shakes.

• 10:33Robert Evans?

  Physiognomy?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah. You're about to hear some racism you haven't even conceived of. Someone's about to tell you how fucking Dutch aren't really white. Like-

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. Stand by. Stand by here, everybody. Look at this guy.

• 10:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Look at this guy when he's young. Look at the-

• 10:52Robert Evans?

  Man, they really spent money on top hats in those days.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  What's he hiding under there? Look at that stash. And there, and then, and then there he is. There's, there's how he's aged. He looks so German here.

• 11:04Speaker 06

  He does.

• 11:04Robert Evans?

  He does. He's very German. And by the number of top hat pictures he has, we know this man had mercury poisoning like you would not believe. Anyone who's top-hatting in this time is just basically raw dogging straight mercury into their skull.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Look at this fit, though.

• 11:20Robert Evans?

  We need to return. That's, that's an aspect of style I want to get back to. His top hats just drenched in mercury. God damn. That's when things were proper. So Heinrich gains his American citizenship in 1869. And he gets it for the most American reason of all, to cheat his wife out of a bunch of his money. He buys a house in Indianapolis and he establishes residence there for three months, which is long, as long as you need to be living in Indiana to use the Indiana state divorce laws, which are like really positive for his situation, right? So he decides Indiana divorce laws are going to be the best ones to, to live under in order to split from his wife, a Katerina, who'd become a real buzzkill on his plans to be a famous archaeologist by this point. She

• 12:05Robert Evans?

  was complaining about the fact that he's never home and has abandoned his family.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, wasn't she, is she still in St. Petersburg at this point?

• 12:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah, she's in St. Petersburg and he is trying to cut her off from his money, right? That's why he wants to divorce her in Indiana and that's why he becomes an American, which again, American to a fault. There's nothing more American. It does make me patriotic to hear about Germans moving here to divorce their wives and cheat them out of half their money. To get his divorce, he had to lie and say he planned to build a life in Indiana. He's going to leave the country as soon as he gets divorced from his wife. This is a total lie. However, before he leaves the United States, he has one last important question to figure out. Who's gonna have sex with him now?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:47Robert Evans?

  Right? That's obviously Heinrich's priority. He's gotten divorced. Time to find another wife, right? In his biography, Leo Dool wrote that "Schliemann was least lucky with women most of his life, unlike his philandering father who begot a child in old age." So he's probably gonna piss the dad keeps showing him up. Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  He's like, "Aw, dad fucks. This is upsetting."

• 13:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah, dad fucks. This is a real issue for me. Heinrich Leo writes, "was hardly a favorite with the ladies before he got rich or after, but obviously having money's gonna really help his ability in that department." Dool writes that, quote, "His sparse physical frame, shrill, high pitched voice, stinginess, petulance, and egomania did not mark even the young man for easy conquests. Besides, he was too disciplined and jealous of his time and energy to lose himself in frivolous pursuits. He explained his lack of success with women in another way. 'I myself am blind,' he wrote a sister. 'Passion clouds my vision. I see only the virtues and never the failings of the fair sex.'" Yeah, that sounds true from a guy who like moved to Indiana to fuck over his ex-wife.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, so manosphere. Just like, oh.

• 13:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Oh.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  They always trick you.

• 13:57Robert Evans?

  The manosphere would have hit him like fucking smallpox hit the Americas. Like, this guy had, would have been so on board for manosphere shit.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  That's hilarious.

• 14:08Robert Evans?

  A lot of people died, Sophie. That's awful.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  I know.

• 14:12Robert Evans?

  So Heinrich was an old guy officially by 1869, but he is also rich as shit. And he decides to use that as a base to launch a new attempt to find love. Probably my favorite account of Schliemann's life comes from the book Digging for Troy by Jill Rubelkaba and Eric Klein. That book notes that, "The second time around, he figured he had learned exactly what qualities make the perfect wife." And we're about to hear what those qualities are, because he writes them down. All the biography, the book notes is that he finds a friend who he trusts to go to Greece and woo women on his behalf. He's got, he's giving a friend a list of traits that he wants in a wife. And this friend is supposed to find

• 14:52Robert Evans?

  a girl, emphasis on the girl, in Greece who wants to like marry him, right? I have questions about this friend and who he is, but this whole story does make it really clear to me why it was so easy for Jeffrey Epstein to make rich old guy friends. There's always been a market for like fixer who can deliver to a rich old man a teenage girl, right? That has always been a profitable business to be in. And that's what he's doing, right? From the book Digging for Troy, quote, "He wrote to a friend asking for help with the search. The woman he had in mind should be well-educated but poor, with black hair and if possible, beautiful, but my main requirement is a good and loving heart. More important, she must read Homer." Schliemann assured his friend that he could tell everything he

• 15:37Robert Evans?

  needed to know from a picture. His friend sent several. Schliemann dismissed one after another. Too bossy, too ill-tempered, too domineering. All this decided from pictures alone. Finally, Schliemann settled on a student who was about to become a teacher. Her name was Sophia Ingastrominos. Schliemann wrote his friend, "I swear, she is the only woman who shall be my wife." Schliemann left America to meet Sophia in Athens, Greece, where he told her, "If you marry me, it must be so that we can excavate together and enjoy a common enthusiasm for Homer." She must have liked Homer and maybe even Schliemann as well, because 19 days later, they were married. Schliemann was 47 and Sophia just 17.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah!

• 16:18Robert Evans?

  Yes, that's, that's an upsetting age gap.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  This guy sounds like the most insufferable date. I just keep thinking about the description of him with his shrill voice.

• 16:31Robert Evans?

  All I knew is a picture.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Shrill and talking about antiquities and Homer.

• 16:33Robert Evans?

  Too bossy.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  Be like-

• 16:34Robert Evans?

  Too domineering.

• 16:36Speaker 06

  He probably sounds like Ben Shapiro.

• 16:38Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. Yeah, yeah. A little Ben Shapiro voice. Yeah.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, God.

• 16:42Robert Evans?

  Anyway.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Homer, Homer, Homer, Homer.

• 16:45Robert Evans?

  He's got his Homer-loving child bride now.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Jesus Christ.

• 16:50Robert Evans?

  Although, I, I will say-

• 16:52Speaker 01

  What a fucker.

• 16:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I, I don't agree with the biography that this suggests she had a shared enthusiasm for Homer or for Schliemann. All I think this really says is that like some Epstein shit went down and Heinrich bought a teenage girl. Although, there is, there is a plausible, more optimistic way to look at it that like, hey, maybe this poor chick in Greece was like, there's this rich idiot who's willing to like marry me and he's not gonna live that much longer, right? Like, especially if he wants to go digging in Turkey, very easily, he could die doing that. And then I get his money, right? This may, she may have been making a very smart decision. And if so, if, if she was just like, yeah, I think I'm willing to humor a rich old asshole until he strokes out. If that was your move, hats off to you, Sophia. Good job.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Top hats off to you.

• 17:38Robert Evans?

  Top hats off to you. His money is better with you than anyone else.

• 17:44Robert Evans?

  As Rubel Kama and Klein describe it, once companionship was taken care of, Heinrich pivots to his much larger plan, which is making himself immortal through fame, right? He's gotten rich, but he's not famous. He wants to become a famous figure, and the way to do that is to make a great discovery, to find the buried ruins of Troy. Earlier on, during his first experimentations with archaeology, he'd met another real archaeologist, a guy named Frank Calvert, and this would have been when he was in Turkey during his grand tour in 1868. The two met by chance near a dig site that Calvert owned, a big mound called Hisarlik. Through judicious and careful study, Calvert had grown convinced that Hisarlik held the ruins of Troy, and he was right. It absolutely does.

• 18:27Robert Evans?

  Now, I should note here that Calvert did not originate the idea. For a long time, realists who believed in Troy had traced its ruins to a location called Penarbashi that was nearby. But in 1801, a kind of a tourist amateur archaeologist, I think, named Edward Clark, had visited Hisarlik and had picked it out as the site of the actual Troy by doing like real archaeology. He had done some light excavations. He'd found some coins and inscriptions. And he argued based on the evidence that like, this is very likely where Troy was, right? And so Calvert is convinced that Clark is right, and he buys a bunch of this property so that he can start digging. But he doesn't have like a lot of money to keep doing it.

• 19:06Speaker 06

  Wait, Robert, Robert, this is not the first time this guy's come up on our show. When you did the episode with Chelsea back in many, many years, the behind the swastika, this guy came up.

• 19:18Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, Edward Clark. Yeah, because he was like doing early excavations. Well, I mean, and Schliemann does too. They find swastikas as part of the, as like on some of these ruins, which is part of what, like, we do talk about that in the swastika episode. The fact that they, there's like, that's a symbol that exists in some of these ruins is part of what ignites swastika fever in Europe. Because the discovery of these Trojan ruins is such a big deal, it like, and because nationalism is all budding in this period too. Like, it all, it all unfortunately kind of comes together in a stew that's, that's going to have some tragic outcomes much later on, right? But nobody's morally to blame for that stuff here, right? Heinrich meets this dude Calvert, who's become convinced that Clark was right.

• 20:01Robert Evans?

  And Calvert convinces, like, converts Heinrich to the view that Hisarlik is where the Trojan ruins are. So Heinrich basically heads back west long enough to divorce his wife and marry this child, and then he's like, it's time to go dig up the ruins of Troy. Because he had very little experience with any of this, Heinrich used Calvert as his own personal Google, or I guess fucking ChatGPT today. And he bombards the man with questions about like, how do you do an archaeological dig? What do I buy to spend several years digging in Turkey, right? Calvert himself is broke and had no more money to fund the dig on his own land. So he was happy to help Heinrich in the hopes that this rich asshole would pay to fund the achievement of his dream.

• 20:43Robert Evans?

  In 1870, Heinrich arrived at the dig site Hisarlik with a team of hired men armed with pickaxes. Now, it is important for me to note that Hisarlik was located within the heartland of the Ottoman Empire as a real functioning government. Sorta. They had a process for archaeologists to follow before digging shit up. But Heinrich is not a go-through-the-processes kind of guy. He knew that would take time, and it would inevitably just force him to keep the best stuff he found in the country where he'd found it. And that's not acceptable.

• 21:13Speaker 06

  Motherfuckers not getting permission. Motherfuckers not asking shit.

• 21:15Robert Evans?

  Well, debatably not. He definitely doesn't get a permit, and he's definitely digging illegally. I did, in my research, I found a 1999 article in the Journal of Archaeology that claimed Schliemann made an informal agreement with Ottoman authorities to split his findings in exchange for permission. So he didn't get a permit, but like whoever the local authorities were, he promised to split the treasure with if he found anything.

• 21:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:39Robert Evans?

  He doesn't do this in any case, but he may have had some local approval. Whatever the case, he's breaking the law by doing this dig, right? You know who else is breaking the law?

• 21:48Speaker 06

  No, maybe.

• 21:50Robert Evans?

  God willing, our sponsors, you know? We'll see. If you can buy a switch to turn a Glock into a machine gun off of Facebook illegally, why not have illegal advertisements on podcasts? You know, let's see. Maybe it'll be something fun.

• 22:07Speaker 04

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• 26:48Robert Evans?

  And we're back. So Heinrich had become convinced that a specific spot in this mound his sarlik would yield up the ruins of Troy's walls. And again, they are in there, but a lot of stuff is in there. Troy was a long time ago, and people had kept building over the same site over thousands of years. Because of this, Calvert urges him to gently test his hypothesis. If you think the walls are here, let's dig several small trenches in different places to try and survey what might be there and get an idea of where we need to do deeper excavations without causing any unnecessary destruction. And Schliemann said to that, "I'm not gonna do things slow way. We can do it the slow way. We can do it the fast way." From the book Digging for Troy, quote, "Convinced that Troy was at

• 27:33Robert Evans?

  the very bottom of the mound at his sarlik, he armed his workmen with pickaxes and ordered a huge trench dug into the center of the mound. Sophie will show you how that looks. You can get an idea of how much is removed from this. Like, it's just, it's a V. He just tears through this fucking mound, which is layers and layers of artifacts."

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Deep!

• 27:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's deep and very destructive. Now, he's got another professional archaeologist that he's brought on, and he, this guy begs him to stop. And it's like, "You have to take minute notes about what comes from what depth, about where everything is, because each layer of ruins corresponds to a different period of time. And artifacts uncovered without knowledge of where they came from, without their context, are close to useless, right?" Schliemann calls that guy a pussy and punches it up to 11. Quote from Digging for Troy, "Schliemann's methods were savage and brutal. He plowed through layers of soil and everything in them without proper record-keeping. No mapping of finds, few descriptions of discoveries. Single-mindedly, Schliemann dropped, chopped his way toward

• 28:36Robert Evans?

  Troy. He pushed himself to exhaustion. The workday began at first light. They worked until the sun set and the light was too dim to continue. Schliemann oversaw it all, pacing the site with his odd gliding walk. Later, by lamplight, Schliemann wrote the events of the day in a plain, stiff-covered notebook. He recorded the number of workmen, the day's expenses, and the progress on the dig. Sometimes, he sketched the objects they had found that day. Today, archaeologists wouldn't wait until the evening to write out their notes. They wouldn't rely on their memory, which is unreliable. They take notes right in the trench. But Schliemann was never concerned with accuracy, particularly when the truth didn't fit the story he was spinning. Because he had decided the summit of the hill would be the logical place for the most important and impressive buildings to have stood, when he found walls elsewhere, he merely moved them to the summit in his official

• 29:21Robert Evans?

  reports." So he's, he's not only destroying stuff, he's lying about like, what he finds where? Because he's like, "That doesn't work both where I think things should be. So I'm just gonna say it's in a different place." Like, I cannot exaggerate how bad he is at being an archaeologist.

• 29:36Speaker 01

  Just imagine him shrilly yelling at his teams, "Deeper! Dig deeper!"

• 29:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they've got like artifacts, "Throw those away! Those are too high up! They're not from ancient Troy! Burn them!" As his teams plunged down, they tore through pottery shards and bricks, which turned out to be part of a massive interlocking series of ancient walls, layers and layers of them, from thousands of years of time. Heinrich was overjoyed. Surely, these were the walls of Troy. They were walls, and they were, in fact, in the location of ancient Troy. So what did Heinrich do wrong here? To explain, I'm gonna have to jump forward to the present day for a second. We now know that Heinrich, by which I really mean Calvert, was correct. His sarlik contained the ruins of Troy, or rather, the ruins of several Troys. And by digging down to the very bottom of the mound, the stuff he found at the bottom of the mound that he is convinced is Troy, are the ruins

• 30:26Robert Evans?

  of a sizable-walled village that archaeologists today call Troy II. This coastal village would have prospered between 2550 and 2300 B.C., which is centuries before the time most experts expect the Trojan War would have occurred. This means that in digging down to Troy II and tearing through or throwing away everything he found above it, Heinrich Schliemann had, in fact, destroyed a large portions of the ruins of Troy he was looking for. He dug down to an older thing and destroyed actual Troy.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Wow. He dug, he said, literally, like, dug too deep.

• 31:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah. He dug too deep and just tossed out the shit he was actually looking for.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 31:07Robert Evans?

  Because it didn't seem cool enough, and it wasn't in the area he thought it should be. Yeah. We will never have a comprehensive understanding of what we lost. And some passages from Digging for Troy are heartbreaking if you are any kind of antiquities nerd, or just someone who values an improved understanding of our shared human cultural heritage. Quote, "Their pickaxes and shovels obliterated history. In his diary, Schliemann wrote, 'Unfortunately, we are obliged to destroy the foundations of a building 59 feet long and 43 feet broad. If it wasn't Homer's Troy, he wasn't interested. At 30 feet, they struck and shattered more pottery, tools, and weapons. But it wasn't Homer's Troy. Schliemann kept digging.'" And it's entirely possible those ruined weapons he tossed out were dated to the Trojan

• 31:49Robert Evans?

  War. It's possible that building he destroyed was from that era, right? Some of the pottery and tools that he's running through certainly did. We'll never know. As Heinrich urged his diggers on, sickness and plague descended upon the camp. They called it the marsh sickness, likely malaria, and it brought many of his workers low. There were also constant scorpion attacks and a major problem with venomous snakes. In Digging for Troy, the authors write, "Schliemann was sure the site would have been unworkable if the storks hadn't eaten most of the snakes." Thank god the storks ate the snakes. The storks ate the snakes. We'd have really been screwed otherwise.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  I didn't even know storks ate snakes.

• 32:28Robert Evans?

  I, neither. I mean, I guess it makes sense, sure.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I just thought they brought babies, you know?

• 32:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah. That's all I'd been taught. Well, maybe the babies are snakes, just like Frank Zappa was trying to tell us. So, by June of 1872, they had reached a network of walls that we now know represent several cities built over each other over a long period of time. And he mistakes them for giant walls, right? On June 18th, he writes in his diary, "I am among the ruins of Homeric Troy," which he'd, of course, just annihilated. But by one of these walls, he finds a gate. And behind that gate, there's a building. And he declares this building, with no evidence, had been the legendary King Priam's palace, right? There's no reason to think this. It's just the biggest building he's found. Further discoveries followed, as Rubel Kaba and Klein write, quote, "Schliemann claimed

• 33:17Robert Evans?

  to have unearthed parts of a soldier's helmet, which turned out to be the pieces of a smashed bronze vase. He had identified a shield, which turned out to be a pan with its handle broken off." For an idea of like, how accurate he is, "Ah, this must have been Achilles' shield!" It's like a fucking cooking pan. Heinrich and his boys kept digging until, finally, at the very end of May 1873, they found honest-to-goodness bona fide treasure. He would write later of this legendary find, quote, "I came across a large copper object of the most remarkable shape, which attracted my attention all the more as I thought I saw gold behind it. I cut out the treasure with a large knife. It was impossible to do this without the most strenuous exertions and the most fearful risk to my life, for the large fortifications

• 34:01Robert Evans?

  wall, which I had to undermine, threatened at every moment to fall down on me. But the sight of so many objects, each one of which is of inestimable value for science, made me foolhardy and had no thought of danger. The removal of the treasure, however, would have been impossible without the help of my dear wife, who stood always ready to pack in her shawl and carry away the objects I cut out." And I love he's like, "These are so valuable to science." As he's destroying the building they're located in, making it impossible for us to have a clear idea of like, where was this stuff from? Who, why, what was its context? Like, why, what, what does this relate to? He's ruining all of that. Because he just wants the gold, right? It's, it's cool looking. Um, "This find yields up a haul of gold and silver cups and dishes, as

• 34:45Robert Evans?

  well as some bronze weapons, gold beads, and a bunch of jewelry. Now, these had been made by people who lived centuries before the famous Trojans, but Heinrich declared the jewelry to have belonged to Helen of Troy. He declared the whole find Priam's treasure, which I'm sure would have been looted during the actual war, but I don't know, maybe Agamemnon missed some shit." Because the, I guess. Because, like, Helen's jewels. Didn't look for that. Because the valuable stuff had been in a small area, he declared it had all been stored in a treasure chest that had rotted away with the ages. He found a random piece of metal nearby and said, "This was the key!" He wrote up his findings to present them to the archaeological world, and he wove this grand story about, as the invasion, the invaders are cutting

• 35:29Robert Evans?

  through the city, the Trojan royal family is gathering their valuables, desperately throwing them into bags, as they flee the invading Greeks. And his findings did land like a bomb in the European archaeological community. To buttress his claims that he'd found the jewels of Helen of Troy, he had his thankfully no-longer-teensaged Greek bride dress up in them for publicity photos. And I gotta say, she does look pretty good. Like, that's, that's solid jewelry, you know?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Chic.

• 35:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. Very, very nice.

• 35:58Robert Evans?

  Heinrich was instantly catapulted into the ranks of the very most famous archaeologists alive. He wrote articles and books about his findings, but the notoriety carried with it some problems. Notably, the Ottoman government was not happy when he publicized what he'd done to their ruins, because they didn't really know he was there. And he's like, "Yeah, I just tore through a bunch of your shit, found some gold, took it out of the country. Took all these priceless antique artifacts with me, by the way." Per article in Smithsonian Magazine by Malin Soli, quote, "When Turkish authorities realized that Schliemann had smuggled the so-called Priam's treasure out of the country, they mounted a legal case against him, demanding the return of the looted artifacts and temporarily barring him from returning to the dig site. In the interim, the amateur archaeologist turned

• 36:42Robert Evans?

  his attention to another mythical ruler, Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Menelaus. Conducting excavations at Mycenae in 1876, Schliemann discovered a stunning gold funeral mask he believed was buried with Agamemnon. More recent research has refuted this connection, indicating that the mask was created around 300 years after Agamemnon's lifetime and might even be a modern forgery." And this is, I've seen this when I was in Athens at the museum there, it's Agamemnon's death mask. We'll have a, we'll put up an image of it here. It's one of those famous artifacts, though, in like the history of archaeology. It's this like gold mask of a dead guy's face, right? And it's like a really, like, pretty striking looking artifact. We don't know if it's legitimate

• 37:24Robert Evans?

  or not, right? There is a lot of debate about that. We definitely know it was not Agamemnon's. Nobody's arguing that. Experts have pointed out that the mask looks very suspiciously different from every other Mycenaean mask we've ever found from like that period of time in that area. And that's brought up an uncomfortable question. Did Schliemann forge or have someone else forge the mask? We know he talked about forging things at times. I found that article in the Journal of Archaeology, which is the Journal of the Archaeological Institute of America, which kind of collects a bunch of the different suspicions people have about some of Schliemann's findings, including some of the Helen of Troy treasure. It's possible he had a lot of the stuff he found at Troy forged too.

• 38:08Robert Evans?

  We don't fully know. That article notes, "When it appeared as though the Ottomans might claim their fair share of the treasure, he explored the possibility of having forgeries manufactured in Paris to give to the Turks. Memoirs of informed contemporaries preserve allegations that Schliemann planted finds with the intention of later discovering them. Among the skeptics were British scholars, who discussing Schliemann's career declared, 'He who heideth can find.' Ernst Curtis, director of the excavations at Olympia and professor of ancient history in Berlin, called him a 'schwindler und fischer,' a swindler and a con man." So, a lot of reputable archaeologists think that he's lying. Now, they also don't think Troy. They generally think that there was no Troy, and we know they were wrong

• 38:50Robert Evans?

  about that. But also, Schliemann talked about having stuff forged. And there's some suspicious aspects about how and when certain things were found. It's notable that the Mycenae excavations, where he finds that mask, went on from August 7th to December 3rd of 1876. And the so-called mask was discovered on November 30th. So, he finds the mask and three days later closes the dig entirely. And it's also noteworthy, Heinrich ended his Trojan excavation as soon as he found the gold treasure. And that's not how like actual archaeology is supposed to work. It's like, "Oh, I found a cool thing. We're done."

• 39:25Speaker 06

  It's like when my dog hides their bone under the pillow and then, and then they find it later and they're like, "Oh, my gosh. How did this get here? I'm so surprised." But he's immoral and a piece of crap.

• 39:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, people debate, did he maybe find different artifacts around the site and put them all in one place to make a better story? Did he have things forged? Or did he maybe buy antiquities from like a bazaar or something and pretend that he dug them up?

• 39:54Speaker 06

  So crazy.

• 39:55Robert Evans?

  We'll never really know.

• 39:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 39:57Robert Evans?

  But there's a lot of like, there's a lot of sketchy stuff here. And there was sketchy stuff too about his Trojan excavation, right? As the article continues, "Excavations were also closed on November 26th and 27 while Schliemann was away. Where was he? A relative of his wife, Sophia, is alleged to have been an Athenian goldsmith. Did Schliemann obtain the mask from Sophia's relative in Athens, then return to Mycenae and bury it to find it on the 30th?" We'll never know. There's, there's good reason to wonder, though, right? This is still an unsolved archaeological mystery. Most, and by the way, I should note, at this point in time, the overwhelming, or at least the majority view of reputable people is that it is an authentic relic. It was probably not a forgery. That's

• 40:41Robert Evans?

  the most common view, that the mask is real, but that it has nothing to do with like the Trojan War or anyone involved with it. Although, again, there is still debates here. And there were extreme doubts about the mask's provenance in Heinrich's life, both from people who thought it a forgery and those who argued it couldn't have belonged to Agamemnon, in part because he did not exist, almost certainly. Near the end of his life, Heinrich did sort of accept this by saying, "So, this is not Agamemnon. These are not his ornaments? All right, let's call him Schultz." Right? Like, I don't care whose it is. It's a great artifact.

• 41:11Speaker 06

  I'm famous. It's fine.

• 41:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah. If maybe you'd done a better job as an archaeologist, we might have found out who it was. Yeah. But Schliemann doesn't care about the truth. He cares about finding shiny things, as that makes clear. And you know who else likes shiny things? Sponsors of this podcast. They love them.

• 41:27Speaker 06

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• 41:30Speaker 04

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• 42:57Speaker 04

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• 43:04Speaker 07

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• 44:07Speaker 02

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• 45:07Speaker 04

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• 46:01Robert Evans?

  And we're back. During the height of Heinrich's active time in the field as an archaeologist, he was known to react with fury and venom to anyone who questioned him. This is just his normal life. A lot of passages from Leo Duel's book make him sound kind of like Elon Musk, including this one, quote, "His relations with even his closest friends and associates remained stormy. At one time or another, he fell out with all of them. Touchy to the verge of paranoia, he took offense on the slightest provocation. The mildest criticism of his books and excavation results incensed him. Any disagreement he would take is a personal affront." Now, I should also note that despite the fact that he partners with Frank Calvert and is digging on his land, and Frank is the guy who told him where Troy was, Heinrich doesn't

• 46:44Robert Evans?

  mention Frank at all in any of his accounts of the story. He cuts him out entirely in the story of the discovery of Troy. He leaves his name out of letters and articles. He writes about their shared findings, and he will work with other archaeologists. And anytime he works with someone else, he cuts them out of the story. He constantly does this. As Leo Duel writes, "Schliemann took from others liberally, but in essentials claimed credit for himself. In the end, it was always he who would discover the site of Troy, the megara, longhouses of the second city, or the relief ceiling of Orcominos. In order to magnify his accomplishments, he would play down the contributions of others and enlarge on what he considered their errors. The decisive role of Frank Calvert, who had not only dug at his sarlik Troy, but owned half of the tell in leading Schliemann to the site in

• 47:27Robert Evans?

  the first place, was never clearly acknowledged. Even his wife, Sophia, is active part in excavation and discovery. He tended to sweep or leave entirely unmentioned, even cutting his wife out of it for the most part."

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Wait, so did Calvert get anything? I mean, he didn't get the acknowledgement, but did he get like?

• 47:43Robert Evans?

  He does. Yeah, he gets some of the, he gets some money and stuff for it, I think, because he does own like half of the fine technically. But I couldn't tell you exactly how things financially work out. But obviously, we know about Calvert now. It does come out. He continues digging and returns to Troy after working out an arrangement with the Ottomans to hand back a few of the less valuable artifacts that he'd found to them. And by the way, all these artifacts today are in Russia, because again, they wind up in Germany, and then the Russians take them. And so there's, there's both Germany keeps asking Russia for the artifacts back, and Turkey keeps asking Russia for the artifacts back. And I gotta say, Germany, these aren't yours. Guys, you get, you have no claim to these fucking things. Like, I'll listen to Russia's claim because of the war a little

• 48:25Robert Evans?

  bit. They should be in Turkey, right? You know? Certainly not in Germany. We can all agree, wherever they don't belong, it's fucking Germany. So Leo's book makes a really interesting point about the way in which Heinrich conducted his digs and how he decided like where to tear through and what to do, which is that he treated excavating relics like a venture capitalist treats investment, right? It's a very capitalist attitude towards archaeology. During his archaeological phase, he never ceased to look after his investments, and he remained active in real estate and securities transactions. Until his last days, he busied himself with building schemes in Athens. His excavating, at least in the beginning, was haphazard and reckless, reminiscent of speculations that rested on shrewd intuitions

• 49:10Robert Evans?

  like trading in commodities, right? He does everything that way, including like dig through priceless relics.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Well, and you mentioned too, like on the, the dig, what he was, yes, he was drawing some things from memory at night, but he was also just like in the books, you know, like paying attention to the money.

• 49:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he was too upset, how much am I spending? What's the cost, right? As opposed to what am I digging up and where was it found? Yeah, we know more about like what he spent to make this happen than we do about where certain artifacts really came from.

• 49:42Robert Evans?

  He made his return trip to Troy on March 1, 1882. Heinrich was sensitive to the by now many complaints made by the archaeological community in his own day that he was a brute, destroying actual history in his almost blind quest to declare random shit Trojan War relics. And that's important. You'll hear periodically, people say like, well, everyone in Heinrich's day was kind of that reckless of an archaeologist, and they weren't. The mainstream opinion at the time is that he is a fucking destructive force, right?

• 50:14Robert Evans?

  He does hire real archaeologists for this dig. Thankfully, he brings a guy named Wilhelm Dorpfeld, who's a very diligent scholar and expert archaeologist with him on this next dig to Troy. And Dorpfeld sets to work trying to figure out what's happening in this disastrous dig site Heinrich left behind years earlier. Because he immediately realizes, oh my God, you have torn through thousands of years of history and just tossed it in the trash? I have like, if I, I can maybe undo some of this damage, but it's going to be the work of the rest of my life to unfuck what you fucked up here in the slightest amount. One thing Dorpfeld finds is that there were very large buildings in the layer that Heinrich had declared Troy. And as they uncovered them, Wilhelm warns Heinrich not to draw conclusions

• 50:59Robert Evans?

  about what they're finding until they have more information. And Heinrich ignores that and starts darting off letters, being like, I found King Priam's bedchamber and the like. He leaves Dorpfeld out of the findings entirely, does not mention this guy. By 1883, Schliemann is done digging and convinced he's done enough to prove his theories correct.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  He's such a dick.

• 51:19Robert Evans?

  He's a huge prick.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:21Robert Evans?

  Once he returns to Europe, though, his claims are met with a wall of professional skepticism. People are like, yeah, man, nothing you've done has proved that it's Troy.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, this guy again.

• 51:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like it certainly hasn't proved these relics belonged to King Priam or anything. And so there's a lot of people who think he hasn't done anything of significance. Like he uncovered like a crematoria for an old royal family at some point is kind of what a lot of folks assume. Over the next years, he tried to enjoy his money and pretend he wasn't bothered by any of this. But by March 1 of 1890, Heinrich had grown so frustrated with what he considered a character assassination campaign, that he returned to Troy, and his goal is to find the royal cemetery. Because his doubters were claiming the palace he'd found was just a crematoria for the dead. And he was like, well, if I find the real royal graveyard, that will prove there was no crematoria, and then they'll have to believe I was right. He has a railroad constructed to the site this time, so that he can more

• 52:17Robert Evans?

  quickly throw away dirt dug up in this quest. He pays Dorpfeld to return. Per the book Digging for Troy, quote, "Dorpfeld saw the newly exposed work site as an opportunity to reassess his sarlik. He began a meticulous study of all the layers of occupation, not just those levels surrounding what Schliemann believed to be Homer's Troy. Schliemann found it difficult to be patient with Dorpfeld's systematic approach. The man was far too slow for him. But his life's achievement, his legacy, was on the line. So he left Dorpfeld to his finicky procedures." He's kind of, he's resigned to the fact that I have to let an actual archaeologist do actual archaeology here, and it will surely prove that I've been right all along, you know? And Dorpfeld does puzzle out the different layers of Troy.

• 52:58Robert Evans?

  He's the first guy to, to start doing this. And he comes to understand that Troy I, the earliest settlement, had been founded at the very start of the Bronze Age. The last layer, the top layer, Troy IX, had been constructed some 3,500 years later. So there's almost 4,000 years of history in this mound. At long last, someone competent had begun the still, the Turkish archaeologists are today still undoing the damage that Schliemann done. And they could never undo it all the way, right? But he, Dorpfeld starts the process. And for this last, vanishingly brief part of his life, we can truly say that Heinrich contributed to real, meaningful archaeology, and that he paid Dorpfeld to do some real,

• 53:43Robert Evans?

  meaningful archaeology. During Christmas of that year, 1890, Schliemann left Dorpfeld to sort through their findings and went on vacation to Naples. He came down with an ear infection that wore at him throughout his trip. And then one day, on his way back to his hotel, he had a stroke. Heinrich was taken to a hospital where he died the following day, December 26, 1890, in Naples. And he's fucking dead now. Thank goodness.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Merry Christmas.

• 54:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, Merry Christmas, everybody. Heinrich Schliemann did eventually die.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  What a fuckhead.

• 54:14Robert Evans?

  That's all I got. Yeah. It's worth, again, there's some good articles you can find about the Turkish archaeologist kind of undoing his damage and all of the work that has been done to actually figure out what was really going on at these sites he declared, you know, Troy, where Troy was. But yeah, you know, that's the Heinrich Schliemann story.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Do we know if his, the young child bride, Sophia, if she continued in archaeology as well after he died?

• 54:42Robert Evans?

  I don't think she did. I think she continued to be a rich lady for the rest of her life, though. So good for Sophia.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 54:50Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I had nothing but sympathy for her. And she did look great in those jewels that had nothing to do with the Trojan War or Helen of Troy. Absolutely nothing. Well, Kristin, you want to plug anything before we go out here?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Sure. You can listen to my podcasts on Ladylike and Conspiracy, she wrote. Just search both of them and, you know, find, find your flavor. Listen to both.

• 55:17Robert Evans?

  Hell, yeah.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  That's all.

• 55:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah, check that out. Check out Conspiracy, she wrote. And check out Kristin. I'm sure we'll have you back on the show before too much longer, Kristin Conger. But thank you for talking about some archaeology bastards with us. And I hope everyone listening enjoyed getting a break from horrific nightmarish crimes against humanity and enjoy just some all pretty upsetting crimes against archaeology. But nobody was murdered.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 55:43Robert Evans?

  So that's good.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Kind of.

• 55:45Robert Evans?

  Well, he wasn't, he was a war profiteer, and a bunch of people did die at the digs, probably.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. But was that the marsh disease, the marsh sickness?

• 55:53Robert Evans?

  The marsh disease?

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:55Robert Evans?

  Pretty low body count for a Behind the Bastards episode.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair enough. Fair enough.

• 56:00Robert Evans?

  Fair enough.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  You're welcome, people.

• 56:03Robert Evans?

  You're welcome, everybody. Yeah, yeah. Come back next week. We'll probably have something heartbreaking. Bye.

• 56:12Speaker 06

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

• 56:47Speaker 04

  I'm Melissa Jelton, host of the What Happened to Her podcast. We're kicking off the season with the Sandra Birchmore story, a case the police wrote off as a suicide in a snowstorm. Her family never bought it, and the man they suspected wore a badge.

• 57:02Speaker 05

  You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform.

• 57:07Speaker 04

  And you can get access to all episodes 100% ad-free with an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription exclusively on Apple Podcasts, available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly.

• 57:39Speaker 07

  He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff. And they said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent. Backhanded her, pow.

• 57:54Speaker 07

  Listen to The Devil's Quarry, Season Two, in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  Malcolm Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get The American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audio-books.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  In 1986, a man named Scott Macklem was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm reexamining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job. Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time?

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Listen to Examine: The Backfire Effect on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 59:21Speaker 04

  From shocking betrayals to carefully planned murders, The Black Effect's new original podcast series, Bloodline Crimes, hosted by me, Morgan Wood, explores the darkest and bizarre cases where family became the most dangerous threat of all. Listen to The Black Effect's Bloodline Crimes every Thursday starting October 8th from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.