Part Three: Is Oprah Winfrey a Bastard?

Oprah's career is on the move now, and Robert tells the gang about her coke filled early years in local TV, her rise to stardom and how she helped spark the Satanic Panic. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  We're on page 18 of 52.

• 0:09Robert Evans?

  A podcast where Robert Evans accidentally wrote 20, almost 24,000 words about Oprah for this, these episodes.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Jesus, fuck, Robert.

• 0:17Robert Evans?

  The, the, the normal length of a book is 50,000 words. So half of a book about fucking Oprah. And like, I was having panic attacks at the end of this of like, oh my God, I'm leaving so much out. I'm leaving so much from like, this, uh, this, this really good book, Age of Oprah, out. Cause like, I, I just don't even know how to like, fit everything in. But I have to start this episode with our wonderful guests. Uh, the inimitable Bridget Todd, uh, and the, the glorious sainted, uh, I don't know, Andrew T. I'm trying to think of new, new, uh, adjectives to praise y'all with as we come in.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  What do you have to do to become a saint? What's a saint?

• 0:58Robert Evans?

  Uh, I think you actually have to die. Uh, no, you don't. No, you don't. I think you don't have to die.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  I'm down.

• 1:02Robert Evans?

  You're probably okay.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  Just let me know, I'm down.

• 1:05Robert Evans?

  Bridget, you could also be a saint, but I'm not, I just don't get major Catholic vibes from you.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Oh, I actually did go to Catholic school.

• 1:11Robert Evans?

  Oh, you did? Well, shit, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna redirect the, the habit that I've got headed for Andrew and it's gonna go to you, Andrew. Sorry, you're not sainted anymore.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  You have to, uh, you know, live virtuously. You have to die for the faith. So like, you have to martyr, uh, perform miracles.

• 1:32Robert Evans?

  He's performed a miracle.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  I don't know, I don't know if all of these are required at once, and I think there's

• 1:36Robert Evans?

  Every, everyone who's made it on time for Behind the Bastards recordings and sat through a whole episode as a guest has performed a miracle. I, I stand by that.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  It has been a martyr, but yeah.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  My most miraculous thing is since we're doing video is I'm holding up my favorite coffee cup.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Wow, I love that.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  You didn't by chance buy that in Maryland, did you? That's giving me big Maryland vibes.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  It, I'm, I'm sure it's from Maryland, um, Maine.

• 2:02Speaker 03

  Oh, they have, uh, they do crabs out there too, no?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Not good.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Could they? I can't imagine.

• 2:09Speaker 03

  I'm making lobster, I'm getting my crustaceans mixed up.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  It's so hardcore lobster territory.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  I don't know if lobsters and crabs fight. Sorry for, we're already over. We were, the whole discussion has been how long this is gonna be and I've just tried to figure out if there's crabs in Maine.

• 2:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Listen, listen.

• 2:28Robert Evans?

  There's for sure crabs in Maine. They've got lobster at McDonald's in Maine.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  But that's, that's my whole point.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Part three seems normal. Part four is.

• 2:37Robert Evans?

  I, there's, there's, there's no logic to the number of parts. This might, may wind up more episodes than we thought. I have to start with something, which is a mea culpa. I made some mistakes in the last episodes, guys.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Tell us.

• 2:48Robert Evans?

  And I'm so, so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. So here's the thing. When you're doing a podcast like this, like it's a mix of you do a bunch of research and you write a bunch of things to get a bunch of facts out that you are as accurate as you can, but you're also having a conversation. So you do stuff like, oh, I'm bringing up the biblical story of Ruth. I don't know much about Ruth. I only included it in the episode to make a bad joke about Star Wars, the Phantom Menace. And so I made a comment about, I don't know, I think she's got something to do with Moses. She does not. And all of the Bible people got onto me for that one. And I'm sorry.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  How big a part of your audience is the Bible people?

• 3:28Robert Evans?

  A shockingly large number of, well, I think it's because we have a lot of like ex-evangelicals in the audience. Like a lot of people who were raised evangelical.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:38Robert Evans?

  And then got better.

• 3:40Speaker 02

  I'm just gonna throw this out there. That wasn't an error. That was a fucking dork trap and they all fell into it.

• 3:46Robert Evans?

  They all fell. The same, the same cannot be said for my heinous and unforgivable comments about the March of Dimes. Because I made a comment that like, I don't know, I guess it's probably a cancer charity. And then a bunch of people popped in being like, no, it's for this. And then other people were like, actually, when Oprah was a kid, it didn't do that. It was for a completely different thing. So we're all wrong. Although again, it had nothing to do with cancer. So I was wrongest. But like, you guys were wrong too, most of you who criticized me. Cause it wasn't about that then. So fuck you. I love you. I'm sorry. It's right now. I think it's for like, let's look up the March of Dimes.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Is it premature babies?

• 4:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, immature babies, but it was like about polio before that.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  How dare you people try to correct Robert? That is my motherfucking job.

• 4:34Robert Evans?

  Improve the health of mothers and babies, right?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  I'll just throw this out there.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Robert, Robert is never wrong. He is perfect.

• 4:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I never like say stuff during, like, one of the things you learn about yourself during doing this is like, how often in daily conversation, and we all do this, you just like say things that are a part of your understanding of the world that are not right. Uh, cause that's like life. We all pick up a bunch of bullshit. Like the number of times.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I just don't think you should have to apologize right now. I, I, I take that burden from you. I'm sorry for Robert, but he's innocent.

• 5:08Robert Evans?

  All I'm saying is record everything you've ever, you ever say in a single day of conversations with people and then run them by a fact checker and you will be amazed at how much of like the load bearing

• 5:18Speaker 01

  We're all wrong all the time.

• 5:20Robert Evans?

  pillars of your reality are things you absolutely believe without thinking that are not true. It's amazing.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  It's the worst part of being a podcaster is like having a public record of stupid shit that you thought, or if you're me, shit that you thought was pronounced one way and it's pronounced another way.

• 5:36Robert Evans?

  The pronunciation and like, so for this episode, I spent almost three hours looking at Oprah's, one of her charity's tax returns. None of that made it into the episode. Turned out not to be interesting. But you know what I didn't remember to do was look up whether or not Ruth had anything to fucking do with Moses.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  I, I just don't.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  I think you just, you're, you're doing great, pal.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  I fail to see how this is a problem.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I think you're doing great.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I just wanted to jump in March of Dimes previous polio charity. Uh, the way things are going, they might need to go back.

• 6:12Robert Evans?

  I know that's, that again, I love polio and I feel like, cause we got a lot of my favorite writers.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Once again, Robert wrote 52 pages.

• 6:21Robert Evans?

  Okay, well, let's get into this.

• 6:25Speaker 04

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• 6:30Speaker 05

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• 7:38Robert Evans?

  Picture this, you're listening to the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast, and suddenly, wait, what did they just say? Well, the questions raised in those show-stopping moments will be answered in the all-new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. Hosts Gabe and Chris will dive deep on a specific topic covered in that week's Tuesday episode, from sexual health and HIV prevention to finding the right doctor. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences. So when we left off, Oprah had gotten her first radio gig with a radio DJ who was surprisingly not problematic. John Heidelberg, people online have been pointing

• 8:22Robert Evans?

  out other stuff about him, apparently fine. Really? So congratulations, John Heidelberg. When we're talking about DJs being problematic, I'm talking about old-timey radio DJs. Because if you look into the history of, like, very famous, old-timey radio DJs, not a lot of them were great people. But apparently, John was. So, good for you, John Heidelberg. You win our Behind the Bastards Award for not being a sex best as a DJ in the 1970s.

• 8:49Robert Evans?

  You're the only person who's won that award, by the way.

• 8:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's gotta be a club of one.

• 8:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that is a club of, you are the loneliest man in history.

• 8:57Robert Evans?

  So the next several years of Oprah's life involved a pretty boring time in college. We're not gonna get into it, but she starts doing beauty contests and she's very good at beauty contests. One of the biggest moments in her early life is she wins the Miss Fire Prevention Contest.

• 9:14Robert Evans?

  Now, I know what you're all saying. What the fuck is Miss Fire Prevention? And to understand this, you have to know that back in the 1970s, everything was flammable. People only wore petroleum products. Every couch was made out of petroleum products and everyone fell asleep with a lit cigarette in their mouth. So everything and everyone was constantly on fire.

• 9:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, so this was a real problem. Also, everyone was on Benzos. So you would, it was like every week in your neighborhood, either a drunk day labor, like either, either the husband would come home from like his work in a fucking law factory and pass out drunk with a cigarette in his mouth and wipe out the entire family. Or the housewife would take too many Benzos and pass out with a lit cigarette in her mouth and wipe out the whole family. But either, whatever was happening, fire was killing absolutely everyone. And so we were like, we have to find the hottest person in order to represent not burning your family to death because you fell asleep with a lit cigarette in your mouth. And Oprah was that person. Isn't that nice?

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Fun fact about that, that's why we have like flame retardant couches now is because the cigarette industry was like, we can't keep getting popped for this. Personal responsibility.

• 10:30Robert Evans?

  We're fine with killing people so many other ways, but all these house fires are really cutting into our business.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Please tell me the first fire retarded couches were just made of asbestos.

• 10:41Robert Evans?

  It probably will. God, I'd rather go for a nice asbestos couch. To know that I'm both like sitting down on the couch to watch horrible news happen and also shortening my time on this earth, beautiful. Oprah was the first black woman to win the Miss Fire Prevention Contest. And that's great. During questioning by a panel of judges, she said that she wanted to be a journalist like Barbara Walters. She was asked what she would do if she was given a million dollars. And everyone else in the contest expressed kind of like, I'll help the poor, I'll help my family. Whereas Oprah just admitted, I would spend, spend, spend. I'd just be a spendin' fool.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  Awesome. Actually, I love that.

• 11:19Robert Evans?

  Yes, you gotta respect that. Like, when I grew up poor as shit, I would spend it.

• 11:26Robert Evans?

  Now, this was definitely a legitimate win, Miss Fire Prevention. However, her next big contest win, the Miss Black Nashville contest, was a little bit shadier. Uh, everyone involved about it seems to agree that another girl, Maude, had been a better contestant. But Oprah shocked everyone by winning. And the promoter of the event would later claim that several people complained to him. And so he did a recount of the votes and found out that Maude had in fact been the rightful winner. But her name had gotten switched with Oprah's by somebody for unknown reasons.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:59Robert Evans?

  We don't know what happened. Some people have theorized Oprah set the whole thing up somehow. I think there's at least an equally good probability, based on just like the vibes I get, that the promoter of the event kinda had a weird thing for Oprah. Uh, his name was Gordon L. Greco Brown. And I don't trust that name. I just don't trust that name. Like, that, that is the name of like a used car dealer from fucking Encina, who also happens to be a neo-Nazi. I'm not saying that's Gordon L. Greco Brown. I'm just saying that's the name Gordon L. That's what that conjures.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Gordon L., like the letter L?

• 12:36Robert Evans?

  L. Greco Brown.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  L. Greco Brown. So he's Gordon Gecko L. Brown?

• 12:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. He, that, that man has so many different opinions on the various coke dealers in his area that he has to keep track of them in a notebook. Um, anyway, when Oprah was notified, I'm not saying that about the literal, I'm not slandering the actual man. I'm just saying that's how his name sounds. Um, anyway, Oprah gets notified of this error, that Maude really won. And she says like, well, fuck it. You guys gave me the award. I'm not giving it back. Uh, in Kitty Kelly's kinda mean biography, a lot is made about the fact that Oprah, like, doesn't give this up. And I don't know, I don't really care. Uh, like, you handed her the award, so she's not wrong to be like, fuck you guys. Oprah goes to Tennessee State University, or TSU, which is a black college.

• 13:24Robert Evans?

  But she doesn't go to the more prestigious and nearby Fisk University, known locally as the Black Harvard. I think this is just a matter of expense. Oprah seems to be insecure about this later. She spends her social time hanging out at Fisk. Her dad is like, look, you know, I could afford to send her to TSU, and so I did. I will say, because Kitty Kelly makes a lot about like, yeah, Oprah couldn't get into the good school. She couldn't hack it. I've read anecdotes, like, from the anecdotes we get about TSU, it doesn't sound great. There's a, there's a good one from one of her professors, Dr. W. D. Cox, that, and this, this is what this guy, Dr. Cox, this actual professor, says later about teaching

• 14:09Robert Evans?

  Oprah. And he, I think he thinks this makes him sound funny. During our stay in the city, a girl was reported raped on the second floor. I told a lie on Oprah. If Oprah had known about the rape, she'd have shouted, "You-hoo, I'm up here." Oprah didn't take too kindly to that joke. She was quite provoked. Did you guys catch that? He is saying, "A girl got raped, and I said, 'Hey Oprah, you would like that.'" That's the, talking about this decades later, being like, "Can you believe she didn't find it funny?" That's nuts. That's insane.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  You just know somebody laughed at him, though, and he, like, encouraged that shit.

• 14:49Robert Evans?

  Maybe, or the whole, like, I don't know what things were like in the 70s.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Don't laugh at men's jokes that aren't funny. Just don't.

• 14:56Robert Evans?

  You should get fired for that.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  I mean, period.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Period, yeah.

• 15:00Robert Evans?

  The whole joke is, "I bet you'd like, get, like, that's wild stuff."

• 15:05Speaker 03

  And it's wild to me that he, like, even in retelling that, he's like, "And she didn't even find it funny. She wasn't amused. Can you believe it?"

• 15:13Robert Evans?

  He describes it as enjoying a little foolishness at Oprah's expense.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Oh, he's still going.

• 15:18Robert Evans?

  That's not what that is. A little foolishness should be like, you know, talking about, I don't know, the fact that she's obviously wants to be a star, making a little bit of joke about how she likes attention. Not that, like, that, this is not that. Like...

• 15:31Speaker 02

  And this, this dude has been holding on to that joke for presumably-

• 15:35Robert Evans?

  Yes. He tells this to Kitty Kelly in 2010.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Decades.

• 15:39Robert Evans?

  2010.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Jesus Christ.

• 15:43Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. You just know, like, just, I'm guessing based on his age, that like, she goes to see him in an old folks home and like, his fucking kids come in, they're like, oh no, get her out of here. We can't let dad be talking to a journalist. Like, oh my god. So Oprah, the big standout detail from her college years is she plays Coretta Scott King in a local production of the tragedy of Martin Luther King Jr. And the main reason this is relevant is that a reviewer for the school paper reviews this play by saying Martin Luther King murdered twice?

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 16:16Robert Evans?

  Cold. I do love how bitchy that is. That's good.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Like, ice cold.

• 16:26Robert Evans?

  Imagine, because he had to have sat with that review title, just being like, I can't say this, can I?

• 16:32Speaker 03

  I'm so glad he went for it.

• 16:33Robert Evans?

  Fuck it, I'm doing it.

• 16:37Robert Evans?

  Near the end of 1972, Oprah gets her first TV gig when her boss at WVOL called a local TV station WTVF TV and told them that he had a girl who was interested in broadcasting. This was during a period where the FCC had just introduced diversity requirements for on-air talent, and Oprah was hired quickly. She generally describes this as an affirmative action hire. Again, the guy who hires her is like, no, she was the best qualified candidate, you know? I don't know. Either way, it doesn't really matter, because this proves to be a very good hiring decision. The truth, Oprah was a skilled performer and had experience both on the radio and as a pageant winner. That said, she was hired to be a journalist, which she had no

• 17:19Robert Evans?

  experience doing, and she winds up reporting on City Hall. She cheerfully admitted, as soon as she starts the job, she tells all her coworkers, I lied during my interview. I don't know how to do this job. Like, her first day, she tells the crew, I don't know what I'm doing. Please help me, because like, I told the director I understood how to do this job. And it's a remark, it's a mark of her charisma that everyone on the crew's like, well, yeah, okay.

• 17:47Robert Evans?

  That's kinda nice.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Like, what a... It's not even a Hail Mary, but what do you like, like, high variance play? The, "Hey, by the way, what's up? How do you do this job?"

• 18:03Robert Evans?

  I mean, that is how, like, entertainment works, right? Like, everyone I know in this industry has a story of like, "Yeah, I talked myself into a room that I probably didn't have the right to be in," and then it worked out.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  The B-side of admitting it, I would say a lot less.

• 18:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I, one of, one of the, again, we're about to get into all of the horrible things Oprah's been involved in, but one thing that I do consistently admire about her is that she doesn't dress up this aspect of her life. She's like, "Yeah, man, I lied, cheated, and stole until I could be on TV." Which is everyone who gets famous on TV, right?

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  I got my first podcast job lying about knowing Final Cut Pro, and then I had to, like, go on YouTube and learn how to use Final Cut Pro.

• 18:48Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Iconic.

• 18:50Robert Evans?

  That's how, look, kids, if you're looking at getting entertained, into entertainment, get good at lying, because that's the job.

• 18:58Robert Evans?

  Oprah experienced a, this is an uncomfortable transition, but a lot of racism on the job. A large part of it was like, she's the first black on-air talent that they have. She winds up interviewing a lot of people who, like, they see a black journalist and just start calling her slurs to her face. She won awards, though. She's very ambitious. Her colleagues, that's the primary thing her colleagues from this period remember about her, is that Oprah is a climber. She is somebody who is, like, crawling up to the top, right? At one point, she takes over for a producer who, like, she gets on set, he clearly doesn't know what he's doing for this Black History Week presentation, and she directs the entire segment herself.

• 19:42Robert Evans?

  She is also, by everyone's admission, doing hella drugs during this period, although everyone at the TV station is doing hella drugs. This is a local TV station in the 70s.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:54Robert Evans?

  Read a paragraph from the book Oprah, a biography based on a conversation with her former colleague Patty Outlaw. It was just nuts working at that station. Drugs, drugs, drugs all the time. Drugs all over the place. They were even selling window panes of LSD in the hall. Drugs were so prevalent that the new staff gave Vic Mason, Oprah's co-anchor, a Coke spoon as a gift. Chris and I looked the other way, said Jimmy Norton, who confirmed that station management removed a vending machine once they discovered it had been rigged to dispense marijuana.

• 20:23Robert Evans?

  That sounds pretty cool.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  This was in Chicago? Where was this?

• 20:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, no, no, they're not even in, I think they're in that, yeah, they're in Nashville still.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Nashville.

• 20:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they're in Nashville still. She does move up to the big leagues pretty quickly, but she doesn't go straight to Chicago. After a few years in Nashville, she gets a job in Baltimore. She's not really happy there, even though this is a big step up. Baltimore, obviously, being a bigger city, because she feels like she's on a ticking timer, right? But like by the time, her attitude is like, by the time I'm 24, I have to be where I want to be. Because then I'm like too old and washed up, which, you know, that's the, that's the way a lot of people feel. That's the way TV is for a lot of women, unfortunately, but like it's certainly not going to be that way for Oprah. Baltimore turns out to be a disaster, though. The longtime anchorman for the station, who she is made to be like the co-anchor, hates her.

• 21:17Robert Evans?

  And she's not really experienced enough, like he's been doing it for decades. She doesn't really know what she's doing yet, so she very quickly gets demoted. But she's still on contract, so it's one of those things where she's getting a lot of money, but she's basically not doing the job that she got hired to do. She's instead getting all these terrible little human interest stories that she considers beneath her. This is a frustrating period, but her saving grace is always her ambition. During that denied advancement at the station, she starts performing at churches, schools, and different black community spaces, building a fan base locally the hard way. She also has a series of interracial relationships while she is working at the station, which is noteworthy because that is not a common thing at the time.

• 22:00Robert Evans?

  And the fact that she is dating white guys in her personal ...life becomes public news. A bunch of local white radio DJs make it like a a reoccurring thing that they talk about on the air, like who Oprah is dating. I don't just bring that up to be like, wow, and like, it's like, no, no, no, this is like, she has to deal with this being part of like, local news.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  Can I say something? Because I do think it highlights how unequal the playing fields are for black women in media. I mean, black women across the spectrum of any profession, but like, yeah, like, local radio DJs, the people who ostensibly are also colleagues or also in media, making it a joke segment about who she is dating romantically, privately, like, that, having to contend with that on top of having to do your job with all these eyes on you, I mean, like, it's completely ridiculous.

• 22:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, like, it's, it's nuts. And like, for an example of how fucking insane it is, one of these local radio DJs describes she's dating like a Jewish reporter, right? Who works at a competing station. One of these guys on the radio describes their relationship as Omar Sharif is dating Aunt Jemima.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 23:11Robert Evans?

  Jesus Christ. Oh, boy. You should just explode when you say something like that.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 23:20Robert Evans?

  So, she had always been something of a binge eater, largely as a response to stress. And as is probably not surprising, the stress of like, being in the public eye and having all of this shit about you be public discussion, causes that to be even more of a problem. In 1977, she starts paying a diet doctor to help her drop weight for the first time, and she starts attending Over readers Anonymous courses. A mixture of stress and starving herself causes her hair to fall out. Or at least, that's one story. Oprah later is going to insist that she lost her hair because executives at the station demanded that she go to New York for a French hairdresser to quote, "Make me a Puerto Rican," by bleaching her skin and changing her hair.

• 24:01Robert Evans?

  Uh, I don't know the act like, cause you get these two different versions of how she loses her hair. It's very hard to say what the truth is. The news producer is like, the company didn't have the budget to send her to New York. Um, she also claims that the former news director tries to get her to change her name to Suzie. He denies this. I don't know. Uh, it's all a little muddled. It doesn't, I, I don't know how much like where the truth lies here super matters, right? Um, there's definitely some stuff that she's like exaggerating, but she's also like, literally people are talking about her relationships on the air in a very racist way. So like, I don't know. I, I, I feel like you get the general gist, which is that she is in an incredibly stressful and unfair situation here at work.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Like the public record is like, even if she's straight up lying about literally everything that is like hearsay, like who cares?

• 24:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Right. Right. Like, that's kind of where I land on this. Uh, that said, I will say the station allows her to work her way, like that she is not like locked out of moving back up and she works her way back up to reporting the news over the next couple of years in Baltimore. Um, and in fact, she rebuilds her reputation with her bosses well enough that in 1977, the new station manager, William Baker, gives her the big break that is going to lead her to the position of kind of impossible wealth and cultural power that she's going to attain. Um, he had been brought on to the station after creating in another station, a morning talk show called Morning Exchange. And his job was to do the same thing for Baltimore, right? Morning shows are a new concept. Like this is, this is

• 25:41Robert Evans?

  the guy playing a video game while ranting about politics on a stream of 1977 is like people waking up in the morning to see one to two charming handsome people talk about bullshit while you like get the kids breakfasts ready, right? It's the hottest new thing in entertainment. Uh, Phil Donahue had kind of helped to kick off the trend of like talk shows in 1968 and his show, which was just named Donahue, had become like the most popular thing on television. Morning shows were a refinement of this, uh, idea, right? You generally have a male host and a female co-host. Uh, and this is how you lock in viewers who are either getting ready for work or like stay at home moms, starting their day.

• 26:21Robert Evans?

  Baker's wife, Jean-Marie, was the one who recommended Oprah to be the female co-host of this new morning show. Apparently, it's some sort of like work event she sees Winfrey, and she like says to her husband, "That's your host." And Baker listens to his wife, which proves to be a wise decision, because for whatever, I mean, there's a number of reasons, but tens of millions of American women feel the exact same way that the first time they see Oprah, like, "Oh, yeah, this is somebody I want to watch every morning," right? So Jean-Marie was definitely keyed into something there. Oprah does not like that she's been picked for this job. She's horrified at first, actually, because in her attitude, she sees this as another demotion, right?

• 27:02Robert Evans?

  She had been a co-anchor and then kicked down to doing these like, human interest kind of like, "Oh, you know, there's a new," you know, it's the kind of stuff they make fun of at Anchorman, right? There's like a new puppy parade or some bullshit. And she's like, "That's this. This is like fluff. I want to be doing like, I think that the, I want to be Barbara Walters. I want to be doing something more hard-nosed." Part of what disgusts her is that a big thing on this morning show is dialing for dollars, which is a way that news stations would keep people watching, because you don't want anyone to switch to another channel if they get bored for a second. So you have this thing where periodically throughout the day, people submit their phone numbers to the station, and we randomly, Oprah draws one out of a bowl, and the station

• 27:46Robert Evans?

  will just send money to that person.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:49Robert Evans?

  That's how they, and you have to be watching constantly to know if your number gets picked. Like, that's literally how they, they're like bribing people, "Please keep watching the show."

• 27:56Speaker 02

  I mean, gambling has never not been the underlying driver of everything.

• 28:01Robert Evans?

  All of American society, yes. Yes, this whole country's one big roulette wheel, and Oprah didn't want to be the croupier. It's a croupier for roulette? Is that how you say it?

• 28:10Speaker 02

  It is.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  About to get another, people being like, "Actually, you said it wrong, Robert. It's this."

• 28:15Robert Evans?

  I'm sorry. All of the people who would correct me on that will die if they spend more than 11 seconds away from a slot machine.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, right?

• 28:24Robert Evans?

  Those are, those are life support systems for a chunk of the populace.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Craps is a croupier. I think roulette is also a croupier, but I don't know.

• 28:31Robert Evans?

  I think I got it. I don't know. I don't care. I like the word croupier. Speaking of gambling, gamble on whether or not these products actually do what they say they are. They do, probably.

• 28:44Speaker 05

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• 29:14Robert Evans?

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• 30:14Robert Evans?

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• 30:24Robert Evans?

  And we're back. So Oprah's got this job offer to host this morning show. And she's like, this sounds like death, right? This sounds like the end of my career. Like you're trying to fob me off on this thing and I will be locked into this, you know, doing something nobody respects for the rest of my life. The thing that she tells Baker is, I'm a news person. I don't want to do a talk show. Then she films her first episode and her mind completely changed. The way she describes this is as soon as she sits down and makes an episode of the morning show, her opinion on it changes on a dime. And the reason why is because she gets to hang out with famous people. And she's like, oh, wait. Oh.

• 31:06Robert Evans?

  And I'm going to read a quote now from the People Profiles biography of Oprah. "This," she told herself, "is heaven." She recalled, "I interviewed Benny from All My Children and the Carvel Ice Cream Man and thought, heaven, because you get to say whatever you feel. You truly get to be yourself." Within a year, People Are Talking, which is the morning show, was beating Donahue in Baltimore, the only show in America to do so. Winfrey would never read another headline. "The minute that first show was over," she told Good Housekeeping, "I thought, thank God, I found what I was meant to do. It was like breathing for me." And that's like, very interesting to me because I, it's hard to get across, like, Donahue

• 31:47Robert Evans?

  is, he's like the Mr. Beast of his era, if you'll forgive me from trying to like make, he is like the biggest guy on, on daytime TV. And Oprah is the, like, this is the only local show that beats Donahue anywhere in the United States. And it's due to the fact that Oprah is on it, right? And she has this absolutely unique electric connection with her audience. This is recognized by people with money and television and things start to move very fast for Oprah after this point, as Pell scholar Amanda Cullen writes in her thesis paper on Oprah's role in American culture. In 1984, Oprah moved to Chicago, Illinois, to host WLS TV's morning talk show, AM Chicago,

• 32:29Robert Evans?

  which became the number one local talk show, surpassing ratings for the most popular show at the time, Donahue, just one month after she began. The show earned national syndication in 1986, becoming the highest rated talk show in television history. In 1988, Oprah established Harpo, Oprah Backwards Studios, a production facility in Chicago, making her the third woman in the, in the American entertainment industry, after Mary Pickford and Lucille Ball, to own her own studio. AM Chicago became the Oprah Winfrey Show and remained the number one talk show for 20 consecutive seasons. So this is like a very rapid explosion in popularity. She goes from getting the show to it becoming number one, to it being entirely reframed to being just around Oprah.

• 33:12Robert Evans?

  And she establishes a production company and gets like a significant degree of ownership in her own show, which is like, this is one of the things that's most interesting about Oprah is especially for somebody who was raised without any access to money, the sheer degree of like business savvy that she has. The fact that she owns a large piece of everything she's involved in and eventually owns all of it, right? Like she is not like she, she, she kind of has this, probably because of how she got fucked over with that first job, this understanding that like, if I don't own it, it's not worth shit to me. Right? Anyway, Oprah. So.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  I just realized something crazy, which is that Oprah, the character that Oprah plays in The Color Purple, she's married to a character named Harpo.

• 33:59Robert Evans?

  Really?

• 33:59Speaker 03

  It's like, isn't that crazy?

• 34:01Robert Evans?

  I had no way. Wait a second, cause I had started rewatching it, but I'm going to be honest, I didn't finish it. Cause I was tired. Harpo is his name?

• 34:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's, she's married to a character named Harpo in, in the movie. That's why I just realized that that's also the name of her, that it's also her name backward.

• 34:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. That's, I wonder, that has to have been, cause she already had Harpo, the studio at that point. We're going to talk a little bit about The Color Purple. And Steven Spielberg comes in. I don't know if he's a hero. Well, he's not a hero. He's a weird kind of villain in this story, but we'll get to that in a sec.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  I can't wait.

• 34:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So for about a full generation after 1984, Oprah's fame is a rocket ship. It just keeps going up and up and up. But what made her show so special? Colin's argument is that she offered, quote, despair disguised as entertainment. In other words, she sensationalized and repackaged human suffering for an audience. Quote, "When Oprah came on the scene, she mirrored this Donahue formula, but with a unique twist of her own. She, unlike Donahue, revealed her own personal struggles and stressed a self-help mantra. The audience loved it and the Oprah Winfrey Show quickly surpassed her predecessors' ratings. Commonly referred to as trash TV, Oprah transformed the talk show genre by turning trash into treasure."

• 35:21Robert Evans?

  And that's kind of, she starts out and she is viewed as like trash, she's viewed as Jerry Springer, right? For a while, because she's doing that stuff. She's bringing on like, I'm gonna bring on a bunch of single unmarried mothers who are fighting with their dads. I'm gonna bring on like some Klansmen to have an argument with like, you know, whoever on stage and like, hope that there's a fistfight or some shit. She's doing pieces of that. But kind of what shifts the meaning of what she's doing is that unlike a Springer or a Donahue kind of character, she's not standing back and being like, "Look at this zoo I've brought to you." She's like, opening up her own difficult, troubled past, which kind of adds this, this like, shot of vulnerability into the whole mixture that makes

• 36:03Robert Evans?

  it unique. And you can see an immediate, that's why it stands out, right? That's why she rises above these other figures so quickly.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:11Robert Evans?

  The most significant-

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Like Springer and Donahue, you never got the impression, their point of view was like, "Look at this shit."

• 36:17Robert Evans?

  Look at this crazy shit.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  As opposed to like, "I have an opinion on this crazy shit."

• 36:23Robert Evans?

  I have an opinion and also like, like you people, like all you troubled people that I bring on the show, I also have had my like troubles and I'm not too big to like, admit them. Whereas like, Jerry Springer would never like, break down and cry in front of his audience.

• 36:37Speaker 03

  Um, he don't remember Jerry's final thought?

• 36:40Robert Evans?

  Oh, God. Yeah. Sure. Of course. The one thing I remember from that show is when Geraldo got his nose broken by a chair. I think that was on Jerry. Was that on Geraldo or Jerry? I thought it was-

• 36:53Speaker 03

  Oh, I think it was, that might have been Geraldo.

• 36:55Robert Evans?

  Was that just on Geraldo? Whatever the case, Geraldo Rivera got his nose broken by a chair, everybody. Never forget.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  But I think your point about like, this setting Oprah apart, I think it really is a testament to how her troubled background really is something that she draws from and is able to like, like, that's, I think that is the secret sauce of what made this connect in a different way.

• 37:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, cuz it's like, we're taught, it's the same kind of like, quote unquote, trash, but there's less of a voyeuristic attitude because like, anytime it starts to lean too much, Oprah will drop some sort of anecdote about her own background. And you're like, oh, okay, so she's really, she's on the same level as us, right? Um, which she's not, but that's how it feels to the viewer at least. Uh, the most significant moment for her career in this period came right after she moved to Chicago to start the Oprah Winfrey Show. On Thursday, December 5th, 1985, at 9 a.m., Oprah started her morning show by bringing on a young white abuse victim named Lori. She opened up by reading some statistics about sexual abuse, namely that one in three women in the United States had experienced it, and then asked Lori, "Your father started

• 38:02Robert Evans?

  out fondling you. When did it lead to something other than fondling?" She pressed with more and more detailed questions, asking, "What did he say to you? How did he tell you? What did he tell you?" And this is all very uncomfortable to see on TV, right? And even, especially like reading the transcript, it's, there's an element of it that seems a little bit exploitative, kind of constantly pushing for those details in front of an audience. That said, it also, this is kind of how interviews work. It's just usually when journalists interview people about these kind of experiences, you don't get the direct interview transcript. You get an article where they've kind of taken out the details, but also kind of softened aspects of it so that it doesn't feel that uncomfortable.

• 38:45Robert Evans?

  Oprah's kind of giving you the raw feed, and seeing something like this, which is normally a private process, rendered as public entertainment, is kind of a new thing? And particularly, what's new about it is that because of the way Oprah does this, rather than people feeling like, "Oh, she's kind of exploiting this woman," people from the audience start to join in, spontaneously sharing their own stories of sexual abuse as children. People in the audience start breaking down into tears, and then Oprah starts talking about her own sexual abuse, telling everyone, "The fact that I had all these unfortunate experiences permeates my life." And I'm going to quote from Kitty Kelly's book here. "For the next few seconds, Oprah appeared to be discovering for the first time that

• 39:28Robert Evans?

  what she had experienced as a nine-year-old child was indeed rape, a defilement so unspeakable that she had never been able to put it into words until that very moment. Her audience felt as if they were watching the fissures of a soul split open as she admitted her shameful secret." And nothing like this had ever happened on daytime TV. There had certainly been like people talking about sexual abuse. But the fact that an episode interviewing a survivor would lead to both members of the audience breaking down and sharing their own stories and then the host doing it. That's a totally novel thing, right? Like, that has never happened before on television. And it creates a firestorm.

• 40:10Robert Evans?

  The fact that Oprah does this on air becomes national and then international news. And it is people, like, the people running the station are not happy. Like, the actual executives at the station are like, this is supposed to be a happy morning show. This is, this is like, this is like for people to like, watch while they're drinking, what the, what the hell is going on here, right? Like, why are we, why are we having stories of child sexual abuse? But the ratings are off the charts. It's one of those things where she both gets in trouble with the people running the station and also this makes her too big to fail. Like, this is, this, this is, it, it, it's impossible to overstate what a massive moment this is for both television as a medium and also for Oprah's career.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, there's also just that, yeah, like, what a, I guess, risk or like, thank God the ratings worked out.

• 41:03Robert Evans?

  It's a huge risk because like, if the ratings had, like, her, her, the people running the station are not happy. If the ratings had not been there, like, she could have gotten fired for this.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:14Robert Evans?

  And it's also, there's, it's such a complicated thing to parse out because one thing she's doing is this is one of the very first times in a public space with this much exposure that you have victims of rape talking about it, not in a way that's mediated by psychiatrists or law enforcement or anything like that, but is just like survivors talking about it, right? And at the same time, Oprah very sees the reaction to this, sees how well it does. And her immediate takeaway is like sex sells. We need all of the sex episodes, every kind of sex, not just like this where people are talking about, you know, their trauma, but like whatever we can get that involves sex. That's what's going to make this show, keep it on top.

• 41:59Robert Evans?

  Right? So like after this episode, she starts invite, she invites a bunch of female porn stars on to talk about the penises of her co-stars, of their co-stars. That episode gets a 30% share of the Chicago audience and provokes even more news articles about Oprah because people are now like, is this smut? Like, how do we talk about what she's doing? Nobody's done anything like this before. And a lot of the coverage is super critical, super like this is incredibly irresponsible. People shouldn't be doing this, but it all just drives viewers. Right? More and the more stuff that she puts out there that gets people shocked and like angry or, you know, titillated, the more people watch her show.

• 42:44Robert Evans?

  When reporters interview her about this, Oprah tells them, my mandate is to win, admitting that her overriding purpose and bringing victims of sexual violence and sex workers onto her show is to draw eyeballs. Kitty Kelly quotes her former producer, Deborah DeMayo, paraphrasing the way Oprah pitched show ideas to her team. I'd love to get a priest to talk about sex. I'd love to get one to say, yes, I have a lover. I worship Jesus and her. Yes, I love her and her name is Carolyn.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  I love how like that's a like, pretty twisted. Oprah was like, I want the like, I want some freaky deke's in here.

• 43:22Robert Evans?

  Find me a priest who's fucking some lady named Carolyn and get her on, get him on.

• 43:29Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. So yeah, that's like. I don't, you can, I guess, moralize that however you want. It's so fascinating that it goes from, I have like, shared my own horrible experience, and people connected with that to like, so we gotta get some priest who's fucking a lady on this show, right? Like, that's where, that's where this got, has to continue going, you know?

• 43:51Speaker 02

  It is also weird to, not weird, but like, I mean, I guess like, more media savvy than I am to conclude from that first show that sex sells rather than like, vulnerability sells, or authenticity sells, or whatever.

• 44:04Robert Evans?

  But also, all of them sell? Because her vulnerability and authenticity keeps her po- it's a huge part of her ongoing popularity, but so is the sex, so is the really sleazy stuff. They never stop doing that, right? I guess the answer is all of it sells, and Oprah has very good instincts, you know? Wherever we wanna land morally on what she's doing here, uh, this shit works. Um, now, it is, it is worth noting that she is depicted in the media, this is very hard for like, I had trouble grasping this, because by the time I was aware of Oprah, she had such a different, like, uh, reputation. In the eighties, she, in late seventies and eighties, she's Jerry Springer, right?

• 44:48Robert Evans?

  She is not a respectable media figure to a lot of people. That is not how she's talked about to a lot of people. Uh, around this time, an article in McCall's Magazine on the Oprah Winfrey Show described what it did it best as, quote, "Get 'em in the gut" show topics. Sexual disorders, battered wives, self-mutilation, overweight people and the people who hate them, you know? All that kinda stuff. Oprah often would say, "Nothing is taboo," and she meant it. Winfrey's own struggles with weight loss and gain quickly became a central part of the show as well. We opened this series with the infamous wagon of fat incident from 1980, or 98. That was gross and bad, but it's also worth noting, if you wanna put that into the context,

• 45:31Robert Evans?

  like, how we could get to something that gross, it comes after a decade of constant public obsession with every pound Oprah lost or gained. And this is where we're gonna talk about the color purple again. So- As I've noted, Oprah struggles with binge eating, with her body self-image from adolescence on, like a lot of us, like maybe everybody. She has a habit of stress eating and was noted by coworkers to binge to really uncomfortable levels during parties and the like. When she becomes a TV star in the mid 80s, people start talking about this. Like, it becomes, both in gossip columns and shit like the fucking National Enquirer and stuff, there's like articles about stories of Oprah and eating and whatnot.

• 46:14Robert Evans?

  And she kind of pivots on this to become radically open to her audience about her dieting and her struggles with weight gain. Now, this helps drive her popularity, but it's also, it both is in part a reaction to and also helps lead to shit like this 1985 appearance on The Tonight Show with Joan Rivers, which I'm gonna play for you now. This is one of the most uncomfortable things I've seen on television.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Oh my god, Joan was such a bitch. I can't wait to see how mean this is.

• 46:42Robert Evans?

  Oh, she sucks so bad.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  I mean, I, like, low-key love her, but like, let's be real.

• 46:46Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, this is, this is not great.

• 46:48Speaker 07

  But you went into beauty contests, they told me you were a beauty contest winner.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm 50 pounds ago or so.

• 46:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, but, so, what'd you win?

• 46:54Speaker 04

  Well, I won the Miss Fire Prevention Contest. Was that a who?

• 46:57Speaker 07

  Miss what?

• 46:58Speaker 04

  Fire prevention.

• 46:59Speaker 07

  So how'd you gain the weight?

• 47:00Speaker 04

  I ate a lot.

• 47:01Speaker 07

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you said 50 pounds. You shouldn't let that happen to you, you're very pretty.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  Oh, Joan, you know what?

• 47:09Speaker 07

  No, I don't wanna hear. Let me tell you this. Let me tell you something. You're a pretty girl and you're single, you must lose the weight.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  I'm going to, you know what? We are now AM Chicago, in Chicago, we're, we're starting a diet with Oprah.

• 47:21Speaker 07

  Great.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Yes, in conjunction with The Tribune, so that I have been put under pressure to finally do it.

• 47:26Speaker 07

  Right, now, I am trying to lose five pounds.

• 47:28Speaker 04

  You're such a teeny ton of a thing.

• 47:30Speaker 07

  Will you come back with me in March, when I'm back, and you lose 15, I'll lose five?

• 47:34Speaker 04

  Listen!

• 47:35Speaker 07

  That's the only way I'll do it, I'll keep thinking that bitch is losing and I'm not. I'll be furious. I'll do it if you do it.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  You will?

• 47:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  It's a deal.

• 47:44Speaker 07

  It's a deal.

• 47:45Speaker 04

  It's a deal.

• 47:46Speaker 07

  Five pounds for me.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  Yes!

• 47:48Speaker 07

  Be great.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's great.

• 47:50Speaker 07

  That's great.

• 47:51Speaker 04

  I'm excited about it, though, because I've gone up and down and up and, I've been on every diet. Have you tried the banana, weenie, and egg diet?

• 47:56Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Does anybody know the banana, weenie, and egg where you'd

• 47:59Speaker 07

  Banana, a weenie, and egg. And I've done the pickles and peanut butter diet. Oh, I just eat cookies, but I only eat like 800 calories worth of cookies. See, I figured you'd do it that way. Oh, yeah, I saw Nell Carter on here last night who'd lost. Yes, but you couldn't tell. She's still very chubby. Just lose more. Don't you think you should lose more? Well, I think so. See, people go, oh, are not people that help friends a diet. You must tell a friend the truth. You must say you are still a pig. Lose more weight.

• 48:25Robert Evans?

  Okay. Well, why are eating disorders so rampant? Is it because these are our parents? Effectively?

• 48:31Speaker 02

  God.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Although I gotta say, though, like, that was not as vicious, vicious. That was not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. It could have been so much worse for Joan. How people talk to bigger people, like, people feel totally comfortable saying shit like this to people's faces, and they don't even think twice about it. This is like, totally how people talk.

• 48:50Robert Evans?

  Part of what you're seeing there is like Oprah being a professional, because when she describes this moment, she's like, yeah, like, I was not happy. Like, this was, that, like, the laughing and stuff was all faked. I was very unhappy that we were having this conversation, right? Like, obviously.

• 49:06Speaker 03

  So rude.

• 49:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, it's like, I can't believe the kind of shit that you're saying there. It was made, like, this whole situation was made worse at the time, because, like, not long after this, while she is like doing this very famous, publicized diet that gets announced on the Joan Rivers Show, like, the first big thing she does after this is she's sent to Ethiopia to report on Chicago's efforts to help the famine. So the story is simultaneously Oprah trying to lose 30 pounds, and Oprah reporting on a famine in Ethiopia. Not great vibes. One of her colleagues asks, like, hey, is this kind of gross? And Oprah replies, you're right, it's sick, isn't it?

• 49:43Speaker 03

  It is sick.

• 49:44Robert Evans?

  It is kind of sick. Now, one fair critique of these episodes is that we're not gonna go into super clinical detail about all of the different fad diets and dangerous weight loss misinformation that comes out of the Oprah Winfrey Show. Part of why is because the podcast Maintenance Face has done a ton of that. So you can check all of that out. I think part of it is just that, like, you get the idea here, right? It's both important to note that, like, Oprah, like, that, that clip there. There's a lot of pushing on everyone listening to that. Feel bad about your body. Be ashamed if you've gained weight. Embrace dangerous strategies to lose it. Oprah has a lot, and Oprah will admit it today, a lot of guilt in spreading that. But also, she is in such a unique position where like, I don't know if there's ever been a single person

• 50:28Robert Evans?

  that so many Americans have been so obsessed with their body size. Like, it's kind of hard not to, not, not for that to affect you in a bad way. Like, we, we really were insane about Oprah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what else to say about that. Um, I will say, in order to kind of point out the way in which people talked about her, one of the most prominent TV critics of the day, Richard Blackwell, described Oprah as bumpy, frumpy, and downright lumpy on the cover of TV Guide. Jesus. So, right around the time this is all happening, Oprah is on the Tonight Show, like, right around when she's on the Tonight Show, she is auditioning for a role in The Color Purple.

• 51:12Robert Evans?

  After the episode, where, again, this is not as friendly a situation as it appears on the air, she's very unhappy about this. She's stressed each, she gains more weight, and then she checks herself into a fat farm, an emergency weight loss boot camp type program to lose the weight. Steven Spielberg, who had directed the movie, finds out, and he calls Oprah. And Spielberg says, "I hear you're at a fat farm. You lose a pound, you could lose this part."

• 51:43Robert Evans?

  So she's like, she's fucked no matter what.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  I don't love anybody, like, micromanaging somebody else's weight, but

• 51:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  The Color Purple is based on a novel by Alice Walker, and the character she was portraying, like, I, like, I get, it's not something I think he should have said, but I get where he's coming from.

• 52:00Robert Evans?

  It's, yeah, I, I don't know. I don't know.

• 52:07Robert Evans?

  I don't know where I should, yeah, yeah, it, it's uncomfortable.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Does Oprah talk about like, like not, not like to, well, yeah, I, I mean, I guess what I'm about to say is gonna sound victim blaming, but I'm just curious, because part of the, like, this, like, like, attention to her weight, she, even if it was like gonna happen anyway, she didn't profit from, like, it was like a part of the, like, editorial strategy of her show, right? Like, does she talk about leaning in on that?

• 52:41Robert Evans?

  She, she hugely leans in, right? Like, she does, she does, she, in, in part, she makes the specifics of like how much she's gaining or how much she is losing and what diet she is doing, part of the show. A lot of the money that comes in is as a result of diet advice. She has deals and gets millions and millions from groups like Weight Watchers, right? Pushing a lot of different diets. She gets paid and also just like fills airtime and makes money that way, putting on different diet experts and diet books and a lot of that stuff is extremely dangerous. It is both, she is being victimized by the whole media

• 53:22Robert Evans?

  environment and also profiting on that by pushing the same kind, poison on everyone else, right? Like, that, that's what's happening here, right? Like, it is a story of both victimization and profiting off of putting some pretty toxic, and Oprah, you know, the thing she's doing right now is at least copying the some of that, right?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 53:44Robert Evans?

  Now, copying the some of that while also getting money from Weight Watchers. So, I don't know. I don't know where we want to put that out.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  The one thing I, I am curious about is when we, as a culture, made the transition from saying weenies to hot dogs.

• 53:57Robert Evans?

  You wouldn't get a hot dog based diet today.

• 54:02Robert Evans?

  Which you should never have had a hot dog based diet.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Ask Jamie.

• 54:06Speaker 02

  I guess, I guess not.

• 54:07Speaker 03

  Ooh, she would know.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Jamie would know.

• 54:09Robert Evans?

  She would know. Yeah. Uh, anyway, um, so, uh, she gives up after, or at least the way that Oprah tells the story. After Spielberg's like, if you lose a pound, you could lose this part. Oprah decides like, fuck it and gives up on getting the role, uh, and keeps the role. Um, and yeah, she winds up doing very well. She gets like, is like massively, you know, like, one of the interesting things about Oprah is she could have had just a whole career as a major Hollywood star. Like, she just decides to keep being Oprah Winfrey because that turns out to be much better for her than being like a movie star. But she's very like, has a very successful acting career starting out.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, Color Purple is like, it is a, it is a classic. It's probably the movie I have seen the most times in my life. Like, it is like a, like, and the way that she was in that movie, it was a revelation. Like, even thinking about it now, as good as like Whoopi Goldberg is in that movie and Danny Glover is in that movie. Oprah is the standout character. Even, so probably her big scene in The Color Purple is when she gives the speech to Seeley, "All my life I had to fight." If you've heard that Kendrick Lamar song, alright, that's where the beginning of that song comes from, is Oprah's big scene in that movie. Like, that movie, the way it shifted the culture, we like, really cannot be overstated.

• 55:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's so fascinating to me that like, that would be for very, for most people, like, oh shit, I've made it. I've like, been in this highly praised Hollywood, you know, that's the rest of my life, is I'm gonna be in movies? Oprah's like, no, no, I, I know a better way to get really famous.

• 55:47Robert Evans?

  So, uh, while this is going on, her, her movie career is starting, Oprah is continuing to, you know, be trash TV, right? That's really this era. And sex is not the only thing that she finds out that sells. Racism gets people to tune in. So during Black History Month in the eighties, Oprah started booking KKK members to show up wearing sheets and hoods. Intermittently, she would book guests with something important to say, too. Like when she did the women with sexual disorders episode and talked to a woman who had never orgasmed. Oprah brought in a sex surrogate to coach her on air, which elicited a flood of complaints as Kitty Kelly documents. Yesterday's show was gross, said one woman. I don't know how else to describe it. Absolutely degrading. There are millions of women who never experienced sexual pleasure, said Oprah.

• 56:32Robert Evans?

  We had 633 calls from women yesterday after the show on the computer. We made lots of women feel they are not alone. And this is what makes, especially in this era, it's always back and forth, right? Because there's this mix of like, oh, that's some of the grossest TV I've heard about. And like, oh, you're really pushing out some very unhealthy attitudes towards dieting into society. And also, it's incredibly important for people to know about stuff like sexual dysfunction and that there's like coaching for that and to not feel ashamed. Like, this is a thing that we can talk about in public. And Oprah's always so much of both of those things. That said, for every episode like this, you'd get where it's like, yeah, I'm glad someone in the fucking 80s

• 57:14Robert Evans?

  was talking about like sexual dysfunction and the fact that there are treatments available that you can and should seek. You go right from that to Oprah being like, also, the devil is coming for your children. And this is going to get us on to one of my favorite subjects, how Oprah Winfrey helped start the satanic panic. But first.

• 57:35Robert Evans?

  Yes, but first, you know who else is the devil?

• 57:40Robert Evans?

  But like the sexy devil. Like the devil when he's played by that guy who also played the president in the Command and Conquer Red Alert 2, you know? That guy.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  I'm just nodding.

• 57:50Robert Evans?

  Turn. Everyone's just nodding. Nobody else remembers that guy. He played the devil once. Look him up.

• 57:56Speaker 05

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• 58:40Speaker 05

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• 59:05Robert Evans?

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• 1:00:04Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit dovato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 1:00:15Robert Evans?

  We're back. Four people are so happy I just made that reference. Everyone else has stopped listening forever. Um, so. Satanic Panic. In 1989, a Canadian psychiatrist and con man named Lawrence Pasder wrote a book about his patient, who he later married, Michelle Smith, claiming he'd recovered her memories of participating in elaborate, impossible satanic rituals while being abused for the devil's gain. This book, Michelle Remembers, helped launch the Satanic Panic, a religious moral panic that ruined hundreds of lives and made much, laid much of the groundwork for QAnon to take off today. We maybe don't get the Trump presidency without the Satanic Panic. That was some necessary groundwork, right? Right.

• 1:00:59Robert Evans?

  You gotta put in those load-bearing pillars, and this is, this is where that's coming from. And Oprah helps get it off the ground. She brings Lawrence and Michelle on to her show, along with several other prominent. If you are a Satanic Panic con person, right, who is like, "I worship the devil, I sacrificed babies", Oprah will let you say whatever to, at this point, literally tens of millions of people are tuning into her show. I want to start with a clip of a 1986 episode, which wasn't about the Satanic Panic, but contained a sting for their upcoming episode on devil worshippers. And I want to play this just because, you know, we talk, I throw to ads in a lot of, you know, different ways here, but I got about the masterclass here.

• 1:01:45Robert Evans?

  All right, we'll come back and we're gonna talk about sex some more. Back in a moment.

• 1:01:52Robert Evans?

  The devil!

• 1:01:54Robert Evans?

  The screen after she says that is just a picture of the devil on a TV screen, holding his own tail with a... Thursday, victims of satanic worship. I love that.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Iconic.

• 1:02:07Robert Evans?

  Coming next, the devil!

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:02:10Robert Evans?

  Also, we're gonna talk about sex some more. We should have thrown to ads now, Sophie.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:02:15Robert Evans?

  That would have been the way to do it.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Next, next time, bud.

• 1:02:19Robert Evans?

  You gotta learn from the masters here. Now, I'm gonna play, or I'm gonna have Sophie play, another clip. I think from closer to 1989 or 1990. Most of Oprah's early shows are not preserved in a convenient way, so I did my best here. My next guest was used also in worshiping.

• 1:02:36Speaker 07

  The devil participated in human sacrifice rituals, rituals and cannibalism. She says her family has been involved in rituals for generations. She is currently in extensive therapy, suffers from multiple personality disorder, meaning she's blocked out many of the terrifying and painful memories of her childhood. Meet Rachel, who is also in disguise to protect her identity. You come from generations of ritualistic abuse? Um, yes, my family has an extensive family tree and they keep track of who's been involved and who hasn't.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  She's in disguise?

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  They did.

• 1:03:09Robert Evans?

  Really?

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Robert Evans?

  Okay, okay, what's the disguise?

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  What's the disguise?

• 1:03:14Robert Evans?

  She just looks like a lady.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  I mean, I thought we were gonna find out.

• 1:03:16Robert Evans?

  Is it the boot there?

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  She's wearing a wig and glasses, disguise.

• 1:03:22Robert Evans?

  Oh, okay, okay, yeah, they probably, they Clark-kinted her. Yeah, she put on, if she takes those glasses off, her family's not gonna recognize her. The devil can't catch her.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Sorry, presuming, just was very thrown off by them being Oprah being like, this lady's in disguise.

• 1:03:37Robert Evans?

  It's impossible to tell.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  They zoom in on her.

• 1:03:39Robert Evans?

  I, and I don't say this to shame her, I'm shaming the 90s. You can't tell a bad wig from normal hair in like 1990.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  No, you can't.

• 1:03:47Robert Evans?

  Like, there's no way to do it.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  But that brooch is law.

• 1:03:51Robert Evans?

  That, that brooch is, is something, yes.

• 1:03:53Speaker 07

  ...who hasn't been involved. And it's gone back to like 1700.

• 1:04:02Speaker 07

  And so you were. Right, I was born into a family that believes in this.

• 1:04:09Speaker 07

  And, and this is a, this is, does everyone else think it's a nice Jewish family? From the outside, you appear to be a nice Jewish girl? Definitely. And you all are worshiping the devil inside the home? Right, there's other Jewish families across the country, not just me. Really?

• 1:04:26Robert Evans?

  So, I don't think I have to tell you why this is dangerous.

• 1:04:36Robert Evans?

  That's a real bad thing to have 20 million people watching like

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  Not great.

• 1:04:43Robert Evans?

  All the Jews are secretly worshiping the devil.

• 1:04:49Speaker 03

  And they might appear as like wholesome, normal family, but behind closed doors.

• 1:04:56Robert Evans?

  So yeah, Oprah is literally just doing the blood libel on daytime TV on the most popular talk show in the country. And we're going to continue here because it just gets, I, I am shocked that this was allowed.

• 1:05:10Speaker 07

  What kinds of things went on in the family? Um, well, there would be rituals in which babies would be sacrificed and you would have to, you know. Who's babies? Um, there were people who bred babies in our family. No one would know about it. A lot of people were overweight, so you couldn't tell if they were pregnant or not, or they would supposedly go away for a while and then come back. Another thing I want to point out, not all Jewish people sacrifice babies. I mean, it's not a very

• 1:05:41Speaker 07

  This is the first time I heard of any Jewish people sacrificing babies. But anyway, so you witnessed the sacrifice, right? Um, when I was very young, I was forced to participate in that, in which I had to sacrifice an infant. And the, the purpose of sacrifice is to what? Is to bring you what? What are you sacrificing for? For power.

• 1:06:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I have a lot of questions.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  So many questions.

• 1:06:08Robert Evans?

  Do we think it makes it better for Oprah to offhandedly be like, I've never heard of Jewish people sacrificing babies before. Anyway, tell me about these Jewish baby sacrifices.

• 1:06:19Robert Evans?

  Oh, God.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  Also, this, this does get closer to her future crimes of like, like clearly if even, even if you want to remove like the, any sort of like willful malice from Oprah, like a pretty shameful credulity is on display here.

• 1:06:39Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  Like.

• 1:06:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah, like my, as a middling journalist, my first question would be, are you not worried you're going to get arrested? Cause you just admitted to murdering a baby on television. You know, that's a crime, right?

• 1:06:55Robert Evans?

  There's no statute of limitations on killing a baby.

• 1:07:00Speaker 03

  So I have a question, like, what is the production of this like behind the scenes? Like, where did they find this lady? Did they, is it just like, oh, you've got a story about killing babies and sacrifice? Come on on the air, tell us about it.

• 1:07:13Robert Evans?

  You know, you get pieces of this, nobody will directly say like, we just, we're full of shit, right? We just lied. You know, but, but you, you can tell that what's happening, you get this like that previous clip where Oprah's like, I want a priest who did this and this and this, right? Because it'll, it'll sell an episode. She's like, I want someone talking about sacrificing babies. And you know what is, exists in the world? And you don't have to coach people on this. If you let enough people know, you can get on TV in front of 20 million people. If you talk about sacrificing a baby, there will be someone whose desperation for attention is so high that they will come on television and claim to have sacrificed a baby. That's the way people are.

• 1:07:52Speaker 03

  That's the person you should give a platform for sure. That's a healthy person, well adjusted. Help them spread their message.

• 1:07:58Robert Evans?

  Yes, we, we love Oprah Winfrey doing things that are, again, as a guy who's read a lot of Nazi propaganda, almost indistinguishable from Nazi propaganda. Like, that, like, this is specifically one of the major justifications of the Holocaust. Jews are abducting Christian babies and sacrificing them to the devil. Like, that is really bad to do. I, I really can't emphasize enough how dangerous this thing is. And if you look at shit like in QAnon, right? Where there's a, like, a third of the country believes that the Democratic Party are literally eating babies to gain everlasting youth, which like, just look at Nancy Pelosi, guys. She's not, she's not getting everlasting youth. Like, her hip just broke.

• 1:08:42Robert Evans?

  This is unequivocal bastardism, right? Like, this is a bad thing to be doing. Yeah.

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, I mean, presumably the thing was like, wink, we're not gonna ask you any hard questions.

• 1:08:56Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  Let's just get the ratings.

• 1:08:58Robert Evans?

  Just tell me, give me some detail. And it's- It's so fucked up that like, on one hand, when you're doing this about like, you are talking to someone about their, their difficulty, you know, I've never experienced an orgasm. You're asking these kind of questions to get them to say more. That is making other people with the problem, of whom there are many, feel less alone. Same thing with like sexual assault survivors. And then the fact that you have, you're, you have absolutely no compunction with like, I'll do the same thing for lies about Jews sacrificing babies.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:30Robert Evans?

  Fascinating stuff.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  I'm so curious if she, because it sounds like at one point in her, her career, she really thought of herself as like a news person, a journalism person. What does she think about her career now?

• 1:09:41Robert Evans?

  I, you know, here's the thing, because Oprah never really trained in journalism very much. I don't know if she maybe believes this, if she thinks these are the same.

• 1:09:55Robert Evans?

  Like, that's kind of the thing to me, because, but also I want to be like, you are clearly brilliant. You are a once in a, once in a lifetime genius, at least at some things, but also as we've all seen, we've, we've all become increasingly aware of people who are like, well, you're clearly brilliant at one thing, and now your access to Twitter has made us all aware that you don't understand anything else.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  The, I mean, the evidence is, is, seems to be that people who are brilliant at one thing may actually be

• 1:10:23Robert Evans?

  Terrible.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  Substandard at most other things.

• 1:10:26Robert Evans?

  It may just be that Oprah is a once in a lifetime mind when it comes to the business of entertainment, and also honestly believed this woman was sacrificing babies with her family. I don't know. Now that said, we had, the, the fact that we have quotes from her being like, hey, get me a priest who said this, makes me kind of lean more in the direction of, no, Oprah, Oprah knew, right? That, that some of this, a lot of this is bullshit, and it was just trying to get eyeballs on the TV. I don't, I, I think it's often a mix, like, I don't know how much she's able to parse it herself. I want to talk about another incident that It kind of really makes me go back and forth, which is the McMartin preschool satanic abuse scandal.

• 1:11:09Robert Evans?

  Now, we cover this in our episodes on the satanic panic, but the gist of the case is that a bunch of parents became convinced that their children, more than 300 of them in all, had been systematically abused by a satanic cult headed by the McMartin family who ran a private preschool. The initial allegations, which included claims that one of the alleged molesters could fly, were made by Judy Johnson, who suffered from schizophrenia and was a hardcore alcoholic. From her allegations, a community hysteria developed, which was stoked by an abuse therapy clinic run by Key McFarlane, who provided investigations that pushed children with leading questions towards generating allegations. A whole lot of people had their lives ruined by this.

• 1:11:50Robert Evans?

  And despite the fact that the investigation literally dug up the ground around the school to try to find secret satanic torture tunnels, no one was ever convicted of molesting any kids. And people, I don't, I hate relitigating this because people are always like, well, but they did find tunnels. No, they didn't. They found trash buried underneath the school because a farm had been there and people bury trash. All of the shit that was buried in there was stuff from the era at which there was a farm there where people were burying trash. The dead animal bones, that's just what happens in the ground, guys. That's just how things are. It's not, they weren't running tunnels to molest toddlers for the devil.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  It's, it's also just like the logistics of like running a fucking satanic cult. Like, what the fuck are you talking about?

• 1:12:45Robert Evans?

  Again, it's one of those, and like, I'm not saying no kid ever got molested at this or other preschools, like that, a lot of times the satanic abuse does come from there's a real sexual abuse problem. And then it gets turned into something that absolutely isn't happening. And again, shitloads of innocent people get wrapped into it, too.

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:03Robert Evans?

  I don't think, I'm not saying that was happening at McMartin, because again, nobody got convicted of anything.

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:08Robert Evans?

  So.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  It's not highly correlated with Satan.

• 1:13:11Robert Evans?

  No.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  In fact, it might be higher correlated with Satan's old friend.

• 1:13:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And in fact, church leaders, Southern Baptist leaders, Catholic priests, police officers, these are the people who are molesting kids. And honestly, more than any of those, their own parents and relatives. That's who does it. That's who molests kids.

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  But it's so much more satisfying to believe it's some like big conspiracy. And Andrew, to your point, why would they even need the tunnels?

• 1:13:40Robert Evans?

  A cousin and an uncle, huh?

• 1:13:43Robert Evans?

  Sorry, what?

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  They can fucking fly. What do they need tunnels for?

• 1:13:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. What do they need? Why, why are they doing this in tunnels?

• 1:13:51Speaker 03

  Like, why does that make more sense?

• 1:13:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So as this, in this case winds on for like, like a couple of years, Oprah, it is constantly on the show. They are following, this is like the OJ Simpson trial, you know, before the OJ Simpson trial for Winfrey in here. Like, they are following every twist and turn in this case breathlessly. And when these people don't get convicted, Oprah and her audience are outraged. She refuses to accept this. She brings a bunch of the children and parents and even some of the jurors onto the show to relitigate the case. And she's not the only person doing this. She's part of a trend in daytime TV. Geraldo Rivera does the same thing. So does Sally Jesse Raphael. But as LA Times columnist Howard

• 1:14:33Robert Evans?

  Rosenberg noted, compared to them, Geraldo was as judicious as the Supreme Court. In other words, he's saying, Geraldo's coverage of this was responsible next to Oprah's. And Geraldo Rivera is not a responsible man. I don't know how else to describe him. Again, when he got hit in the nose with that chair, it was the best thing that ever happened to this country. Quote, and here's Rosenberg, "The level of fairness here was typified by Winfrey's admission that she would have made a poor McMartin juror because I would say, the children said it. All right, you're right." The studio audience applauded. You see pieces of this too, that like, if the children say it, it's true. If a mom says it, it's true. It's like, no, you have to have an evidentiary standard when you are accusing

• 1:15:18Robert Evans?

  huge numbers of people of hideous crimes. You can't just say, we put a bunch of kids in a room and wouldn't let them leave until they told stories of satanic molestation tunnels and then lock people up forever. That's a bad way to run a society. Yeah, I, I, I don't know. It's good stuff.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  That's so wild.

• 1:15:39Robert Evans?

  While she's doing this, she like, has all these people on. She tells like, a former McMartin student, like, to tell the audience what she told the jury, like, over 16 days of testimony. And while this is happening, like, you're getting these frequent shots of the audience, like, shaking their heads and like, listening to these horrible stories. One of the moms tells Winfrey, I'm outraged at this verdict. And, yeah, it's, it's just, it's very irresponsible. I don't know. I think it's probably bad for there to be a case where all of these people are wrung through the mud on television, then acquitted, and then have a whole show where you're like, but actually, they were still guilty. These people molested, these innocent people molested a shitload of kids, are running a like, their lives are already ruined, Oprah.

• 1:16:24Robert Evans?

  What are you doing? I don't know. I don't like this. I don't like this.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Has she ever spoken about any of that?

• 1:16:30Robert Evans?

  No. No, no, no.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Robert Evans?

  No.

• 1:16:33Speaker 03

  And I'd have to imagine if she did, the answer would be like, well, everybody was doing it. Like, this is what people did on TV.

• 1:16:39Robert Evans?

  But you were the most popular of them.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 1:16:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  It is this thing with, I mean, even the most popular shows, though, it's like, you are still following trends. Like, you may have a hand on the scale, for sure, but there is a point too, where, you know, the, yeah, as we've seen multiple times, like, the snowball gets out of control. And you are simply, regardless of your size, you are along for the ride.

• 1:17:07Robert Evans?

  Yep. Well, how's everyone feeling so far?

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  Oh, finally got bad.

• 1:17:14Robert Evans?

  It did, it did. We're finally bad.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  It was pretty bad before, but finally Oprah's doing some evident bad.

• 1:17:19Robert Evans?

  The worm has turned, you would say.

• 1:17:25Robert Evans?

  Uh.

• 1:17:28Robert Evans?

  Anyway. Plugs?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Now that everybody's been bummed, play to go.

• 1:17:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  I know, that was like a, like a tough spot to end at, I guess. Although I will say, I'm still thinking about that headline, or that title of her, of the review, MLK shot twice. That, I'm gonna be thinking about that one for a long time.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  That's, that is a level of petty that is very.

• 1:17:52Robert Evans?

  It's beautiful. Yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Very nice.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  I don't know. I got a podcast called Yo Is This Racist? It's fine.

• 1:18:01Robert Evans?

  Check out Yo Is This Racist? Check out There Are No Girls On The Internet, uh, and find our, our, our hosts online and let them know your favorite moment from the Oprah Winfrey Show. Bombard us all on Blue Sky with your favorite Oprah clips. Don't do that.

• 1:18:19Speaker 03

  Oh, do it to me. I, I mean, I've had to like bite my tongue because I have so much to say. Go ahead and spam me on, behind, or on Blue Sky. I want to hear your favorite Oprah takes. I'll tell you mine.

• 1:18:29Robert Evans?

  Don't bite your tongue.

• 1:18:31Speaker 03

  Oh, it would just be me talking about, and another time on Oprah, she did this. And then another episode, she did that. Like, it would be so unfun to listen to.

• 1:18:38Robert Evans?

  Well, part four, we're gonna.

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll find out. We'll find out how unfun it is.

• 1:18:43Robert Evans?

  We're gonna, we're gonna supercharge Bridget. Just let you loose.

• 1:18:49Robert Evans?

  Uh, until next time, folks. Don't put people up in front of the country and tell them that you sacrifice babies for the devil. Avoid that.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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