Part Two: Is Oprah Winfrey a Bastard?

Oprah continues to have the most sympathetic backstory of any BTB subject, and Robert walks Bridget and Andrew through how she turned it all around. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, part two of the Oprah Winfrey series being filmed once again from sunny Las Vegas, Nevada, where I am exhausted and deeply hungover. Unlike my guests today, who are both health nuts and extremely responsible people. The wonderful Bridget Todd and the also wonderful Andrew T. Sorry for giving you the also there, Andrew, but one of you had to get it. I can't remember another nice word. Just wonderful today.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I was, I thought you were gonna apologize for the health nut business. I'm barely hanging on, dog. I'm kidding.

• 0:42Robert Evans?

  How are you doing, everybody?

• 0:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm alive, but try to, try to help folks out on.

• 0:51Robert Evans?

  Still in your home?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Still in my home. I'm trying to, yeah, trying to, trying to, we're at the, we're, the fires are still raging as we record in Los Angeles, but I am lucky enough to be able to try to fucking help some folks concentrating on Skid Row right now, but I will just say, for all, for all you right wing lunatics scared of the Antifa super soldiers and the upcoming war against socialism, it's gonna be really hard for us to make sure all our super soldiers are showing up on time to the battle.

• 1:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. That's never been our, that's never been our strong side, being able to show up in a timely manner.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  But the scheduling, scheduling has been a real thing these last couple of days.

• 1:40Robert Evans?

  Bridget, are you feeling better about your decision to stay on the East Coast now?

• 1:45Speaker 02

  I, well, sort of. I mean, I'm in DC where they just put up all of the like, safety scaffolding for the inauguration.

• 1:54Robert Evans?

  Oh, well, shit, I guess there's no safe place.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  I went for a walk and I was like, damn, it's happening. We're, the city is like, getting ready. So like, there's plywood over windows being put up. So, you know, there's no wildfires, which I'm grateful for, but I wouldn't say I'm feeling pumped. Not the chillest vibe here on the East Coast.

• 2:19Speaker 03

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• 2:54Robert Evans?

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• 3:29Robert Evans?

  Well, are we all ready? Are we ready to get back into the story of Oprah Winfrey?

• 3:34Speaker 05

  Yeah. Tell us all the things.

• 3:37Robert Evans?

  OK, OK. Let's do it. Back to the story. Yeah, I think this is probably the most time we've ever spent on the early childhood and adolescence of one of our people. It's just Oprah and Joseph Stalin, who have gotten two episodes devoted to their childhood.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, we went to Jay Stalls early upbringing. Yep, yep, yep.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  And a prize to the listeners for figuring out the third in that series. Stalin, Oprah, question mark.

• 4:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. It's still being decided.

• 4:09Robert Evans?

  But when we left off Oprah, she'd just been taken to Milwaukee by her mother, who lived downtown off of North 9th Street. So Oprah and Vernita lived in a single room in a boarding house owned by Vernita's boyfriend, Vernita's boyfriend's godmother, which is not an ideal living situation at best. Oprah later said, "I don't know why my mother ever decided she wanted me. She wasn't equipped to take care of me. I was just an extra burden on her." And, you know, I think it's just, this is probably what she was aware of as a kid, because her mom was there the first four and a half years, but she probably just doesn't really remember that. So it's gotta be this uncomfortable situation where from her mom's perspective, "I was just gone 18 months trying to like, set up a life for you."

• 4:54Robert Evans?

  From Oprah's perspective, it's like, "You were gone from as long as I can remember, and then you moved me into this terrible situation in the city," right?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  It's so-

• 5:04Robert Evans?

  It's a bummer.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  So weird to be able to perceive. I don't think I would have realized that was a bad situation when I was five. Maybe I was just an oblivious kid.

• 5:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I don't know. I have some pretty, like, my dad was gone right around the same time. When I was like, five to seven, my dad was gone, because he had to move to like, New York and, you know, earn money for us, because Oklahoma's not a great place to earn a living. Rural Oklahoma, not always a great place to earn a living.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  That is what the song is about.

• 5:36Robert Evans?

  And I remember being pissed about it for a while, and not really getting as a kid that like, "Oh yeah, it's really hard, actually, to be an adult and take care of kids, and sometimes you have to do shit that sucks." Yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  It reminds me of what Andrew was talking about in our last episode of, how much do you really, truly remember as a kid versus how you're remembering how it felt, right? Like, what do you, I mean, I think like, and also like, the idea that we are talking a lot about these very, very early years in her life, in this way of like, well, is she a liar or not, based on what she remembered slash felt when she was four?

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I went through this process when writing it and read it when doing particularly the research where I was like, ah, okay, all of her family say that she's she's lying about this. This is just Oprah being a bad person trying to myth make and make herself sound like she suffered more than she did. And then I went through this process of like, well, wait, what if her family is lying and they're just angry about the money? And then I think I've come back around to like, nobody has to be lying here. It's just

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:40Robert Evans?

  a completely different experience for her and them, and neither of them really understand each other. And maybe communication isn't the family's strong suit.

• 6:49Robert Evans?

  Which is ironic, given Oprah's living, but like,

• 6:54Robert Evans?

  I think that's where I've probably landed. I don't know, there's some like weird similarities. So I've been thinking a lot about like my own situation, kind of some of the stuff I was angry for years with my parents over in terms of like, why did you put us in this situation that was so clearly shitty? And, you know, now as an adult, I better understand that like, well, shit just happens, you know? And when you've got a kid, you have to figure out how to like, make your life work. It's it's actually quite difficult to exist.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. This is why we call you, this isn't why we call you the white Oprah, but this is, you know, hell.

• 7:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 7:29Robert Evans?

  It's again, because of all the Geo metros I give out, right?

• 7:34Speaker 01

  You get kind of a car. You get kind of a car.

• 7:37Robert Evans?

  Sort of a car.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Not kind of a car.

• 7:44Robert Evans?

  So upon moving in with her mom, this is one of the things where I do understand why Oprah's not thrilled. So she she comes into this situation. It's not, they've got like one room, you know, it's very cramped. She's not used to the city. And she also learns upon arriving that she has a half sister named Patricia and a half brother on the way, who's going to be named Jeffrey. And that is proud, that is a lot to spring on a little kid, right? Your mom goes away and the first time you remember seeing her again, you're like, she's like, you're about to have two new siblings, by the way. She and Patricia are never close. And yeah, that's, that's, that's a difficult situation. In Oprah's telling of things, she and her half sister are, were immediately harsh competitors.

• 8:26Robert Evans?

  Oprah's interpretation is that she is the smart sister, whereas Patricia is the hot sister. Although again, they're both like seven at this point.

• 8:36Robert Evans?

  So I don't know if this is Oprah later, kind of thinking back on more shit that, that cropped up when they were like teenagers and young adults. Or if she was thinking that way from the beginning. My guess is that this is a little like colored from later experience, right?

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Hopefully.

• 8:50Robert Evans?

  Hope one, God, one would hope. Um, yeah. Now, most of her insecurity here seems to have come down to the fact, and this is something that she talks about quite openly. She's, she, as a little kid, was kind of obsessed with the fact that Patricia was lighter skinned than Oprah. Quote, "I felt really ugly. The lighter your complexion, the prettier you were." And she complained that even though she was the smartest in the family, no one praised me for being smart.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Oh, well, that is, so that is like tale as old as time. I mean,

• 9:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Even, even when you're really young, you definitely get the sense when there's somebody in your family who has a lighter complexion. You definitely are aware of that. And in a lot of families and a lot of dynamics, there's like a very clear difference in how someone is treated. And the things that you might think of as your gifts that should be very obvious, like I'm smart, I'm well spoken, I have the gift of gab, whatever. You might not feel like those things are being praised comparatively to someone who's being praised for their complexion. A thing they can't even really control about themselves. I definitely, that really rings true to me.

• 9:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And one of the things I do, because that's a tough thing to talk about. And one of the things I do appreciate about Oprah's conception and how she talks about her childhood is she is, does not at all like hide that aspect of things. Like she, she has strong opinions on it. This clearly had a massive impact on her psyche growing up.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And again, I could see how her family would be invested in that, like, oh, we were never colorist against our own in this family. How dare she say that? That's a lie.

• 10:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:27Robert Evans?

  And they probably, I'm sure it wasn't conscious, right? Like, or at least not usually, you know, that's the way these kinds of things tend to work, I would guess. But, you know, like, again, it's, it's, I don't think Oprah's, I'm certain Oprah's not making this up. It's, it's just far too consistent in her story. And, and it, like you said, it makes total sense. Like, this is definitely a massive, has a massive impact on the way she perceives herself and the way she perceives her family. She told one story to life from when she was about nine years old, where she was reading in a back hallway, and her mother ran up, threw the door open, grabbed the book in her hand, and shouted, "You're nothing but a bookworm. Get your butt outside. You think you're better than the other kids."

• 11:10Robert Evans?

  Oprah later remarked of all this, "I was treated as though something was wrong with me because I wanted to read all the time." And again, you get some denials from the family on this point. Whoever's kind of more accurate there, Oprah isn't stopped from reading in like, a major way. Like, she remains an excellent student and a voracious reader into adulthood. Like, I mean, we could talk about the book club stuff. But yeah, this is one of like, the big discrepancies between her and her mom. But she's like, "Yeah, I got punished for, for being smart and for reading."

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  That, that, God, because it also is like, that's exactly what you remember as a, like, tween and teen, is these conflicts that like, don't probably resonate as much with the adult?

• 11:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Like, maybe for the adult, it's this, "Well, one time, I was frustrated at her because she was spending all her time indoors, and I told her she was a bookworm to get outside. And, you know, the rest of the time, she was fine reading. I got her books." But, you know, as a kid, you remember the one traumatizing mom, your, the time your mom yelled at you for reading?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, or, or it's like, you know, I was always trying to help, you know, make this kid in my image, or, or whatever image I thought. And, you know, you hang on to different things.

• 12:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Child memories. So given some of the other context clues of the way that people who were near the situation talk, I think that Oprah's recollection of events, obviously, like, there's a lot that's true there, but there are some inconsistencies. Because one of the things that Oprah's doing in this time, she continues from when she was living with her grandma, is she keeps traveling around to all of these churches in Milwaukee, all these, like, black churches and social clubs, where she'll read poems and stories from the Bible and stories from literature. And so she's, you know, if her mom was, like, so ardently against her reading, her mom wouldn't have been driving her around to do all this stuff, like, taking her to all of these different events. So there clearly is, like, a good deal of support. And, like, people in her, like, her mom recognizes,

• 13:12Robert Evans?

  okay, my daughter has this kind of gift for, like, public speaking and talking, and I need to do something to nurture that, right?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:21Robert Evans?

  And that's definitely a part of the story, too. In People Profiles book Oprah, Merrill Noden wrote, quote, "Oprah gave recitations at black churches and social clubs. A particular favorite was Invictus, a stirring declaration of courage by the 19th century English poet William Ernst Hinley, which closes with the couplet, 'I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul.'" And this is a great poem. It's, like, the first poem I ever memorized. Oprah loves it. And the third famous person who loves this poem is friend of the pod Timothy McVeigh, who recited it as his last words before being executed by the state. So this is yet another thing that Oprah and cousin Timmy have in common. There's so many of them now. I mean,

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 14:03Robert Evans?

  We don't even need to go back and list.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Could you say that Oprah is the black Timothy McVeigh?

• 14:07Robert Evans?

  Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I'm not the first. I think Regis was the first guy to say that, point that out. Anyway, still a good poem. It's not the poem's fault that Timothy McVeigh liked it.

• 14:22Robert Evans?

  Anyway, describing the reception of her first performances, Noden writes, "Although the audiences were impressed with her skill as a speaker, it seemed to annoy her mother and her peers teased her mercilessly, calling her the preacher," which I also believe that's exactly how shitty little kids are.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Going around and being like, I want to recite this poem. When how old was she with?

• 14:44Robert Evans?

  She's like, she's like eight. Yeah. If you're the poem kid, you're getting a nickname.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  That feels honestly not, in the grand scheme of things, as bad as it could have been.

• 14:56Robert Evans?

  I mean, I don't, I mean, that kind of stuff's pretty traumatic as a kid. Like, I got, yeah, you remember stuff like that, like little kids give you a shitty nickname. And yeah, that sticks with you.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  Robert, I feel like you're about to say something about a nickname that you had as a youth.

• 15:10Robert Evans?

  And then you stop yourself. We're not bringing any of that up.

• 15:15Robert Evans?

  But it is like, it's, it's very, it's very sympathetic, right? She's this, she's this bookworm kid who likes to like, read poems to audiences of adults. And she, that is, I can't imagine much that's going to isolate you more than that, especially in like, this period of time, right? Like, it's even, even harder back then. And like, harder to find kids, there's no internet. Oprah would have, thank God, gotten on like, 4chan or something today, and then she'd be fine.

• 15:45Robert Evans?

  But yeah, you're just a lonely, poem-loving little girl at this period of time. That's got to be difficult. The preacher.

• 15:52Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, as an adult, in interviews, Oprah would claim that their landlady, who is again, she described her as a lighter-skinned black woman, didn't like Oprah for being darker than everyone else in the house. And so Oprah was forced to sleep on a porch in the back of the house, while her sister was allowed to sleep with their mom. As she claimed, "White people never made me feel less. Black people made me feel less. I felt less in that house with Mrs. Miller. I felt less because I was too dark and my hair was too kinky. I felt like an outcast." And this is, I mean, like, That that's a tough thing, but this is also an area where there's like a pretty major discrepancy between Oprah's recollections and recollections of the other people in that

• 16:37Robert Evans?

  house. And so I'll quote this passage of Oprah, a biography by Kitty Kelly next. Catherine Esters, and remember, that's Oprah's aunt and like the family historian, responded sternly to Oprah's poignant memory. This bothers me more than her corn cob doll lies and her cockroach lies because it plays into the damaging discrimination practiced by our own people. I'm a dark skinned woman. Oprah's grandfather, Earl, was black enough to be painted by a brush and Oprah is as dark as a preacher's prayer book. But when she says things like that, she reminds me of my cousin Frank, who did not wish to be what he was and discriminated among his kin, preferring the lighter skin to the darker skinned folks. Oprah slept on a porch in the back of the room of the house, but only because Vernita had to take care of her baby and there was just one bedroom. That's it. Period. If Oprah was discriminated against because of her skin color, I'd tell you, says

• 17:22Robert Evans?

  Miss Esters, a civil rights activist who worked for the Urban League in Milwaukee. And I can't really like cast that aside either. So I mean, I don't really know what to do there other than kind of read both of those very much conflicting stories to you.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I will say the tone of that passage. See, I was initially going to indicate that the she was going to say that the sleeping on the porch was not factual. So to land on, well, she definitely was on the porch is still a little like.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  That's not in dispute.

• 17:55Robert Evans?

  That's not in dispute. She was in fact sleeping on the porch. Yes.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  It's like, oh, boy.

• 18:00Robert Evans?

  It's just wasn't, you know, racism or just we have no space because we're very poor. Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  I will say there's something about this conversation. I don't know if it totally fits, but you know, I think that a lot of black folks and folks of color, when you get older and you think about the way that you showed up amongst your own people growing up, like, I definitely went through a thing where, you know, I don't even know how to put it, like, you definitely can internalize, like, they don't, my own people are rejecting me because I like anime or because I'm nerdy and too smart. And then you get a little older and it's like, wait, am I a pain in the ass? And that's why they're rejecting me? And like, it's very easy to like, internalize some very self-serving reasons for why you feel the way you feel. And then you get a little more mature and you're like, well, was that really what was going on?

• 18:52Robert Evans?

  Is that actually the thing?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's also like, like, uh, I feel like with this type of thing, too. It's like, whatever the real story is, it's like, the kernel of truth, even if just to the, like, the phenomenon, makes it really hard to push back. We're like,

• 19:11Robert Evans?

  She was still sleeping on the porch.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm just like, but, but maybe, but, you know, and I'm like, even the it's in the middle of it is just like, probably just let this go.

• 19:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I felt like I had to present both of these things, but yeah, I don't actually know where the truth lies here. Now, for her sake, Catherine Esters thinks that the explanation for why Oprah felt the way she did is more benign, which is that once she moved to Milwaukee, she was, for the first time and very suddenly, not an only child and the center of attention in her household. She was suddenly the oldest of three kids and her two baby siblings got more attention than her, and this made her very unhappy. And I'm sure that's not a non-factor, right? Like, that's such a thing, like, I don't have any trouble believing that that's, that had a massive impact on her as a kid. Now, as I've noted, Kitty's book is quite aggressive, and she is a woman

• 20:08Robert Evans?

  who has built a career off of puncturing the reputations of beloved, famous people. Her work is catty as hell, but she does make a decent point here. Quote, "The only photo I have of my grandmother, she's holding a white child," Oprah said at the age of 51. "Yet a published picture of Oprah's desk shows a photo of her grandmother with her arm draped lovingly around Oprah as a little girl with no white child in sight." And it's stuff like that where it's like, well, okay, that's, that, that's not a, there's a discrepancy, but maybe, no, that's like, that's just obvious myth-making. You've got a photo of your grandmother on your desk, right? You just said that because it, you know, it made a case to an interviewer or something. Like, you've got pictures of your grandmother with her, with you. That was just like, not a, not a, not a true statement. So, there's

• 20:52Robert Evans?

  some, there's some myth-making going on here as well, like, that we can kind of clearly lay out there.

• 20:59Robert Evans?

  So again, it's a complicated, most of this, I'm still on the whole, like as a childhood, this is a very, it's hard not to be on Oprah's side at this point. And I believe Oprah, when she says of her grandmother, every time she would ever talk about those white children, there would be this sort of glow inside her. No one ever glowed when they saw me. And, you know, that also sounds true. Like, that sounds like the kind of thing that that would stick with you as a kid into adulthood.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  But it also is like the exact thing that kids say all the time. You know, like.

• 21:35Robert Evans?

  Well, I mean, that's part of why I believe it, yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Well, but, but as in, like, every kid feels that way, that like, there's a light in someone's eyes until they're talking about me. It's like, yeah, I know, but everyone feels that way.

• 21:47Robert Evans?

  Does everyone feel that way? Or did we just get fucked up too?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Well, sure. Many people feel that way.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Someone listening is like, what are you talking about, Andrew? My parents glow whenever they do.

• 21:58Robert Evans?

  Apple my parents' eye. Yeah. They walk out the door to live their emotionally healthy life, have their good relationships with loved ones.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I'm just saying, there's certainly, we're, we're right in the phase of like adolescence, where it's just like, everybody hates me. Like, that's such a common idea among kids.

• 22:18Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Like, of all kids.

• 22:20Robert Evans?

  That's also one of the, like, the key facts about becoming incredibly rich and famous is that all of these, like, weird little idiosyncrasies and like, anger at, you know, petty injustices, or even some serious injustices that most people just have to get over, you have the ability to make other people care about it, and the ability to also, like, sometimes make it other people's problems, as we're seeing with a much worse billionaire who's in the public eye right now. Because at least Oprah, what I'll say for her is, like, how much of this is accurate or not, and how much of this is myth-making, she has spent a lot of her, like, time as a philanthropist, putting money towards, like, child abuse causes.

• 23:02Robert Evans?

  So, you know, you can't really, I guess that's, that's like, in terms of billionaire coping strategies, she's definitely in, like, the upper 10%.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Yeah.

• 23:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  It's that that is the thing that ultimately this entire series is going to hinge on is like, however much you might want to, you know, or you one would categorize Oprah as some kind of bastard. There is a grading on the curve element of it, which might just put her at not a bastard, given her peers.

• 23:35Robert Evans?

  I I kind of think, again, as we'll as we'll talk about like the actual harmful, toxic stuff she was involved with once her media career got going. It's still more than anything a case of, well, like, we probably shouldn't make any individual person that famous because like your own flaws and blindsights are going to cause you to do things that because of your platform and the level of your fame will be harmful. But yeah, I really do think overall, my opinion of her is like, yeah, this is about the best case scenario for someone who gets this rich and famous, right?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 24:08Robert Evans?

  That is kind of what I have been coming back to because I definitely started my reading more hostile towards her because I I had been thinking of Oprah purely in terms of like, well, now I got to think about Dr. Oz because you put this fucker on TV. Oprah, why did you do that? But yeah, I have a lot more sympathy with her now, which doesn't happen often when we're doing these. Usually you're like, oh, this person sucked ass from the jump.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  I feel like it's got to be more interesting when the bastards are a little bit complex, no? Like where it's like, oh, I kind of have sympathy or empathy for them in some ways, but they did it like, it's got to be a little meatier.

• 24:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, this is meaty. And I also, there's also like a sick joy in reading a book like Kitty Kelly's where it's like, well, I would never write something that's this mean about a traumatized child. But you can.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  It's scratching, Robert.

• 25:01Robert Evans?

  It's kind of nice to see somebody who doesn't give a fuck.

• 25:06Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. So, uh, Vernita obviously needed a lot of help watching the kids, which meant family came over to visit and babysit a lot. Uh, and this is where the story gets very dark because one of the family members who helped watch Oprah was a 19-year-old cousin. Uh, I think they initially go over to the house where the cousin is, but then he starts coming over there. And at some point in this process, uh, Oprah is made to sleep with him. I think initially just because there's not enough beds, right? Like they're literally just sharing beds because there's only so many. Uh, and then he starts molesting her. Uh, after the first night that he rapes her, he takes her to the zoo afterwards and in her words buys her silence

• 25:46Robert Evans?

  with ice cream. Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's not great. Um, no one else in the family obviously was aware at the time. Uh, Aunt Catherine, the family historian, was aware that something is off. And what's interesting is that the family pretty much always denies Oprah's, what Oprah says about the sexual abuse that she suffered. I think because they don't want to admit that they were missing some very problematic stuff. But one of the things that's interesting here is that Aunt Catherine clearly knows something is wrong because around this time she writes to Vernon Winfrey, who's the guy everyone thinks is Oprah's father and begs him to take his daughter in, right? So she, she doesn't, she's never, I don't think she still has accepted that this

• 26:29Robert Evans?

  happened to Oprah, but she's aware enough at the time that something is unhealthy about this living situation that she's like, "Hey Vernon, you should maybe think about taking your daughter in. She's not doing well here." Um, and that's interesting to me, too. Um, so Vernon lived in Nashville. Uh, he and his wife, Zelma, were both sterile, I guess, and they had no kids, right? And I think they had tried to have kids. So one or both of them was like not biologically able to have kids. Vernon clearly had at one point, um, although actually that's not a guarantee because it's come out since that he might not have been the dad, uh, biologically. In any case, he agrees to take, he and Zelma agree to take Oprah in. Um, and this is-

• 27:14Robert Evans?

  A vastly different environment for her. For one thing, he is a small business owner. He runs at this point a barber shop. He was a military man and the Winfreese ran their home like a military operation, which was pretty much entirely geared towards producing the best possible educational outcome for Oprah. So she goes right away from the situation where she's in a very chaotic environment with not much resources to the situation where, again, two adults are entirely focused on making her do as well in school as possible. Oprah continued to be an outgoing child. She's a natural performer. Adults who are around her will say that she would kind of automatically make herself the boss of any group of kids that she was in.

• 27:55Robert Evans?

  Her favorite game to play with the neighbor kids was school. Like, she would play teacher and she would make them all play students. And I'm going to read a quote from her dad Vernon here, because this is, this is pretty funny. "From what I observed then, Lily and Betty Jean didn't enjoy playing school as much as Oprah did. I think that's because she was always the teacher, always scolding her little playmates as she scrawled invisible lessons on a make-believe chalkboard. Lily and Betty Jean would sit attentively at imaginary desks, hoping against hope that Oprah didn't call their names during spelling bees. Can't say how much blame them because if they misspelled a word, there was trouble. Oprah would get her little switch, which was not at all imaginary, and spank the palms of their hands."

• 28:34Robert Evans?

  That's a little unhinged, right?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  I mean, where do you think she learned that behavior?

• 28:40Robert Evans?

  Absolutely, absolutely. But it's still pretty funny.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  It's such a fine line between, how is that even playing school for the other two, really?

• 28:50Robert Evans?

  It is, it does give you some insight into Vernon, where it's like, can you just let her do that?

• 28:56Speaker 02

  I have to say, though, I used to play school, and it only now, hearing this, am I like, oh, was it like not fun for the others? That I would make myself the teacher? Perhaps it was not fun for all parties.

• 29:08Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah, the other kids might not have liked that at all. Maybe I just scared them in line.

• 29:15Robert Evans?

  He did claim that eventually, after a while, he like confronted Oprah and was like, hey, you should let the other kids play teacher sometime. They don't seem to be enjoying this. Quote, "She looked at me with the sweetest expression, all cute and bewildered about how I could ask such a silly thing. 'Why daddy?' she informed me. Lily and Betty Jean can't teach till they learn how to read."

• 29:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, speaking of learning how to read, the sponsors of our podcast never did. That's why they can focus entirely on delivering the best value and the best products to you. They don't know how to read, there's nothing else at all in their heads, but a desire to please you with the absolute best consumer experience imaginable.

• 30:01Speaker 04

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• 30:41Speaker 04

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• 31:07Robert Evans?

  This ad is brought to you by ViiV Healthcare, the makers of Devoto Dolutegravir Lamivudine. If you're living with HIV, do learn about Devoto. Devoto is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Devoto is right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Devoto is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains fewer medicines than Devoto.

• 31:31Speaker 06

  It is unknown if Devoto is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Devoto without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Devoto if you're allergic to its ingredients, or taking Defetolide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devoto and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 32:06Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 32:15Robert Evans?

  And we're back. Ah, we're talking Oprah, talking pra. Talking pra? Talking pra. We probably won't use that anywhere. Jesus Christ. That's not very good. I don't like it.

• 32:30Robert Evans?

  Uh, okay. So Oprah thrives. She spends a year with Vernon and his wife, and very stable. You know, she has a lot of attention devoted to her education. She's doing very, very well. She's also away from this 19-year-old cousin who was molesting her. So that's a huge plus two. Unfortunately, the situation does not last, because Vernita still harbors dreams of raising all of her children together as, quote, "a real family." For whatever reason, not that she needs one, Oprah always saw Vernon as her father, but doesn't seem to have felt the same way, at least initially, about his wife. She was desperate for a normal home with two parents, and claims other kids teased her over this, which I'm certain is true.

• 33:14Robert Evans?

  That summer at age 10, she went to visit, and her mom was like, "Hey, I'm about to marry this guy I've been seeing for a while. You are finally going to get your dream. You know, why don't you move back to Milwaukee?" And this marriage never happens. This guy eventually dies. And so like, this is just, this situation just collapses as badly as it possibly can. But Oprah still makes the choice to leave the stable home with her dad because of how taunted she is by this possibility of like, being part of a full and stable family.

• 33:48Robert Evans?

  And this is one of those things where like, again, I'm not there. It's very hard to at least read Oprah's recollection of events and not think, wow, Vernita, not doing a great job here. Because when Oprah decides to stay with her mom, Vernita breaks the news to Vernon in the most devastating way imaginable. She doesn't like call him and like tell him, hey, you know, there's been a change. She waits for him to drive to Milwaukee to like show up to take Oprah back home and says, oh, actually, no, I'm keeping her. You should leave.

• 34:19Robert Evans?

  Which is rough move. And this is more or less how Vernon recalls things. He remembers weeping as he left the house because he could tell that he was leaving Oprah in an environment where she would not receive adequate care. He told Kitty Kelly, I never saw that sweet little girl again. And he actually is going to raise Oprah again. He's saying that she was a different kid when he returned. Yeah. When Oprah returned to her mother's home, nothing had changed for the better. The same cousin continued to come over to babysit and he picked right up where he had left off. She's molested off and on from ages 10 to 14. The times being what they were and her educational career being somewhat erratic and interrupted, young Oprah did not initially have a great grasp on the physical consequences of sex and how they worked.

• 35:04Robert Evans?

  And I'm going to quote from Oprah Winfrey by Merrill Noden here. Winfrey understood so little about sex that she went through the fifth grade convinced she was pregnant. Every time I had a stomach ache, she has said, I thought I was pregnant and asked to go to the bathroom. So if I had it, nobody could see. That for me was the terror. Was I going to have it? How could I hide it? All the people would be mad at me. How could I keep it in my room without my mother knowing?

• 35:27Robert Evans?

  And boy, we really, really need better sex ed. It's kind of depressing how many kids today probably are not benefiting from better knowledge than Oprah had access to at that point.

• 35:42Robert Evans?

  Real bleak.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's only gonna get worse, just.

• 35:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  So.

• 35:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, that really brought it home to me, like, what a lot of these people want to change the system back to is like kids being in exactly the situation Oprah was, like hiding in the bathroom because you don't know, like, you just want to be in a safe place in case you have a kid because you don't understand.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:06Robert Evans?

  Any of this stuff.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  One also, worried about getting in trouble after being assaulted.

• 36:11Robert Evans?

  Even though the sex was forced on you, yeah, like, it's, it's, it's fucked up. Oprah grows into a teenager who is very bright, very sexually confused, and who is not at all being watched by her guardian. She starts seeing lots of older boys and some men, some of whom are 18, 19 years old. In both of the books I've read and in the recollections of Oprah and the people who knew her, the people around her tended to see it as she is incredibly promiscuous in this period of time, right? Obviously, what is happening here is that this is a reaction to the sexual violence that she experienced from a young age. But that is how she is treated by the adults in her life as a result of like, what's going on, right?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:56Robert Evans?

  One line from her that stuck with me was that she saw her behavior as revenge to the adults around her. They didn't care about what was being done to her, so she was going to behave in a way that forced them to pay attention to her, even if that meant, like, really, yeah, yeah, so.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  I mean, not to continue to, like, make Oprah's story about the traumas and historical baggage of, like, some black communities, but like, again, this idea that I think is really foisted upon black girls and young women about being, quote, "fast," where when you are clearly having a response to, like, a sexual trauma or something that has happened, you know, it's, it's used to sort of.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  marginalize you and other you and like say something is wrong with you as opposed to like, oh, are the are the adults around you somehow failing you? The fact that like her 19 year old, you know, adult cousin was, it seems like not reprimanded and still welcomed back into the home. Meanwhile, Oprah, young Oprah, her response to the sexual trauma is for her to be criticized by her own family is really telling. Like, who gets demonized and who gets like welcomed back with no accountability?

• 38:11Robert Evans?

  Right, right, right. I think that's a really, really good point. And it's probably not surprising that Kitty writes so much better about this very messy chapter of Oprah's life than Merrill, who is a male journalist. But, you know, it's, there's some, there's some bad lines in Merrill's book about this. This book that was written in 1999, probably the worst of which is, quote, "When Oprah was 13, her figure was 36, 23, 36, certain to attract male attention." And I don't know, man, I feel like there's a better way to write about a 13 year old girl than that.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Jesus.

• 38:49Speaker 05

  That's, that's, that's just like, that's, that's gross, man. Like, I mean, like, my own, my own mother who bought most of my clothes at 13, didn't know my figure sizes to the number. That's so disturbing. I didn't know my figure sizes to the number.

• 39:10Robert Evans?

  The reason Merrill does is that when Oprah talks about this, she will give the numbers for her figure, but also like, that's her.

• 39:17Speaker 05

  That's her also.

• 39:17Robert Evans?

  I don't know, man, Merrill, like, quote her if you're gonna do that. Like, just writing it out that may makes, makes me very distrustful of you.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the conclusion drawn is, that should, the conclusion alone should put you on a watch list.

• 39:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  He basically is like, can you blame him, though?

• 39:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I don't know if it's certain, because like, I don't think most men look at 13 year old girls that way, but.

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:44Robert Evans?

  I would hope not. So, following what her abuser had done to her, she started using ice cream to get her younger sister to leave the house so that she could have boys over, one of whom was her cousin's boyfriend, who she claimed treated her as a pet. She expressed a feeling of frustration that none of the adults seemed to catch on about what she was doing and what was being done to her. And to an extent, again, she's like putting herself out there, doing this.

• 40:12Robert Evans?

  In part to provoke a reaction from an adult in her life and no one reacts. Nobody draws a line, nobody intervenes. Now, throughout all of this, Oprah's grades remain excellent. She is still a pretty good student while she's dealing with all of this. In the seventh grade, she's transferred to a better school via upward bound. This is a federal affirmative action program to help poor kids who wanted to be first generation college students by providing them with more support and better educational opportunities. In Oprah's case, this meant being bused with a handful of other black kids to a very white school that had just been desegregated. And one interesting thing to me is Oprah talks a lot about affirmative action and getting into schools and getting jobs only because of affirmative action.

• 40:56Robert Evans?

  And very consistently, when you talk to the people who like hired her, they're like, no, she was like actually the best candidate. Obviously, she's Oprah. She was a very good candidate to work for a TV station or whatever, right? But you can kind of see some of that like, it's interesting to me that that's, that's the attitude that she has towards it, even though like everyone around her is like, no, that really was not the situation.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I will say a little bit that you, I can't imagine getting the counterfactual, even if it were the case of the time, in a direct interview. You ask someone, hey, did you hire Oprah despite her not being the best candidate?

• 41:34Robert Evans?

  That's the other part of it too, yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  And they're gonna say, well, yes. I find that hard to believe.

• 41:41Robert Evans?

  Either way, it's like, I mean, what you can say is all these programs did exactly what they were supposed to because she wound up creating a media empire worth many billions of dollars as a result of getting these opportunities. So they were known on campus as the bus kids. Oprah and these other kids were being bused to this more affluent white school. The whole situation, it's a very weird one where she, once she starts going here, she starts being like taken, like invited into homes largely so that these kind of like affluent liberal white families can have a black kid over for dinner and like showcase how cool they are. Like, that's one of her early, and it's like a pretty, I think, a good experience as she takes it, just because like, some adults are giving me positive attention, right?

• 42:26Robert Evans?

  Like, that's a thing for her.

• 42:29Robert Evans?

  She continues to engage in extreme behavior in a desperate attempt to make her mom or somebody parent her, and this eventually includes a fake robbery and an assault. So here's the situation Oprah had started wearing glasses bifocals and the first pair that she got were ugly and made her look in her words like a librarian. It became clear that she was only going to get a new pair if the old ones broke, so she threw them away and then she like messed up her room and like cut herself in the cheek and called the police claiming that there had been a smash and grab. Now, because she's a kid at this point, she like is pretending to be concussed, but when the police look around, they're like, so what else did they take? And she's like, just my glasses?

• 43:09Robert Evans?

  So not, not the smoothest crime anyone's ever faked. You gotta, you gotta take something, you gotta take like the hi-fi or something out of there, you know? Classic glasses criminals. Now, events like this probably contributed to her family not believing her when she finally worked up the courage to tell them that she'd been molested, which happens around this period of time. So, you know, from her family's perspective, she's this kid who, you know, lied about getting robbed, they've seen her out with a bunch of guys, they think she's just promiscuous. And that's how her Aunt Catherine feels decades later. I don't believe a bit of it. Oprah was a wild child, running the streets of Milwaukee in those days and not accepting discipline from her mother.

• 43:54Robert Evans?

  And when you get to like that aspect of it, it's like, oh, I get why Oprah does not have a good relationship with a lot of these people. Like, that is not at all surprising to me now.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  And this is the woman who still denies Oprah sexual abuse?

• 44:09Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  I wouldn't want this person in my life either.

• 44:14Robert Evans?

  No, not hard to see why she doesn't. Now, obviously, we can't know precisely what happened, but it's going to be interesting. Some of the, some of, part of, I think, why Aunt Catherine has this attitude and why some of the family members that are maybe jealous of Oprah have this attitude is that later on in her career Oprah is going to make the sexual violence she experienced a very central... Actually central to why she got so famous is the way in which she reveals this to her audience, that the context in which she does that has a massive impact on her career and on, it's like one of the things that gets people to pay attention to her because women in prominent places in the media really didn't talk about stuff like this, the way that she did. And so

• 44:58Robert Evans?

  there's this attitude from some in her family that she's again, just doing it all for attention. Um, I'm not saying that because I think that's accurate. I'm saying like that you have to understand if you want to know, like, why is her family saying all of this? This is part of the story, right?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Like she has an incentive so they can point to that.

• 45:15Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  She's like, oh, God, yeah.

• 45:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's when you really dig into the family drama, it's very unpleasant. In the summer of 1968, Oprah goes back to Nashville to visit her father in Zelma. Uh, his brother, her uncle, Trenton, drove her. Now, up to this point, Oprah considered Trenton, her favorite uncle. Then while they're driving, he asks her if she'd started dating yet, uh, thinking that she was having a safe conversation with her uncle, she said yes, uh, but that it was hard because all the boys that her age wanted to do was French kiss. According to Oprah, her uncle immediately pulled over to the side of the road and molested her. She does not tell anyone immediately. Uh, but after visiting with her dad, she returns to Milwaukee furious and she

• 45:57Robert Evans?

  runs away from home. This time she's gone for a full week. Uh, her mother is panicking. Oprah claims that during this time, she was hustling for money on the street and she meets Aretha Franklin, uh, literally, literally running up to Aretha Franklin's limo and crying, saying that she'd been abandoned and she needed a hundred dollars to get back to her family in Ohio. She says Aretha gave her the money, which she then took to a hotel and spent several days drunk on wine, eating room service food. I don't know if this happened. Aretha, I don't think anyone ever asked Aretha when they were both like when she was still alive. I haven't found any evidence of that. And I'm kind of surprised because we've had this info for a while and it's like, well, I, I would kind of want to know if Aretha remembers this, right?

• 46:40Robert Evans?

  But yeah, so I don't know. You have to, you'll have to take Oprah's word on that one. It would be kind of a weird thing to lie about. Uh, but I don't know.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  It's just like you would assume potentially that like this would not register on Aretha Franklin's radar?

• 46:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, she had a lot going on.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 47:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Fuck.

• 47:02Robert Evans?

  I'm just kind of surprised no one ever asked her about it as far as I can find out. Because like Oprah, like there were, there was plenty of time after which Oprah was very famous and Aretha was still alive. I'm just kind of, nobody, nobody thought to do that, huh?

• 47:15Speaker 02

  And Aretha was giving interviews and stuff like for even in like right before she died, right?

• 47:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Like she was like a-

• 47:21Robert Evans?

  2011, 12? Yeah.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. I kind of think this is the kind of thing that's just on someone's comms team is like, we're not talking about this.

• 47:29Robert Evans?

  We're not talking about this? We don't want to talk about Aretha giving wine money to young Oprah Winfrey?

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see that being pretty-

• 47:39Robert Evans?

  Now, after this incident, Vernita tried to drop her daughter when Oprah finally comes home. Vernita tried to put her daughter in a school for delinquent girls. She was told the processing time would take two weeks, which was too long. And in a move that really tells you a lot about Vernita, Vernita's like, well, fuck that then. She calls Vernon and she says, hey, actually, you should take her back. Now, this is kind of a cheeky move because by this point Vernon had sat down and done the math and he had counted back from Oprah's birth date in January of 1954. And he'd realized that he was away with the army during the period of time in which she was most likely conceived. So, he's got pretty good evidence that he is not in fact the biological father of this kid. But instead

• 48:21Robert Evans?

  of being like, you know, you're on your own Vernita, or she's on your own, this is a kid he's still bonded with, that he's, he's thought of most of her life as his daughter, he says he'll take her back if Vernita gives up all claim to the girl. And that's what happens. Oprah moves back to Nashville and unbeknownst to everyone at this point, the 14-year-old girl was now pregnant with a baby she believed was the result of her uncle Trenton molesting her. So that's a lot to deal with.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:51Robert Evans?

  Put lightly, but you know, big ups for Vernon there. That's like a pretty, and this is like, he's, it's very interesting. He's like gotten basically nothing from Oprah, like asked for basically nothing from her. Like he's, he takes a lot of pride in the fact that like, his barber shop put her through school and supported her, which is, you know, he's right to do so, obviously. But you know, this is probably the luckiest single break of her life. I think Oprah would say this was the luckiest single break of her life. That Vernon, even when he got this kind of excuse to not be a father, decided to continue being her father.

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  How does she talk about him now?

• 49:31Robert Evans?

  Very positively, yeah. I think you get the feeling there's some stuff they don't quite agree on. But like, she's very open about the fact that she owes a lot to him. Obviously. And Vernon's clearly, clearly very proud of her success, even though again, you get the feeling like, oh, he doesn't really understand like what she's been doing most of her career.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:50Robert Evans?

  In a lot of ways. Yeah. So, once she started high school in Nashville, Vernon again became a strict disciplinarian, imposing a dress code on her and demanding excellent academic performance. Oprah was always a great student, but she stopped, she had stopped by this point enjoying school. And part of why was that in the winter of 1968, she was now heavily pregnant, hiding it under layers of jackets. Eventually, she could not hide it from her father any longer, and she told him what happened and that his brother had been the likely rapist. The short of it is Vernon didn't believe her about his brother, and I still don't think he does. He doesn't say she's lying. He, it's, it's, he kind of like deflects the question, like,

• 50:35Robert Evans?

  the, the most recent interview I've read was him saying something like, well, it's very hard to accept something like that, you know, with somebody that you're close to.

• 50:44Robert Evans?

  I'm not privy to the full details there, but you get the, obviously, it's a significant pain point in the relationship. The way Oprah describes it, her earlier promiscuity was used as an excuse by the most stable adults in her life. To be like, no, my beloved brother didn't do this, right? This is, you know, there's some other explanation here, you know? And yeah, that's even the most supportive family member in her life is doing this to her. So that's

• 51:16Robert Evans?

  not great. Oprah grave birthed two months prematurely in the later winter of 1968. For whatever it's worth, Vernon and his wife had pulled together in the 11th hour in that point and agreed to raise the child so that she could start her life. Like, that was their plan. We'll raise her, your, this child is like another of our kids and you can go off and go to college and stuff. But none of them ever get that chance. The baby is very ill. It never leaves the hospital and it dies after less than a month. Oprah describes this as the most emotional, confusing and traumatic experience of her life, which, yep, that, that it would be.

• 51:58Robert Evans?

  From what I can glean via reading, this is the kind of moment that basically ended her childhood. And it seems like everyone is aware of that at the time. Everyone decides to lock down and bury what had happened as a family secret. They they never talk about this again. Right? And so Oprah has to process everything that's happened without being able to talk about it to her family. All Vernon would say to her was that he thought that God had given her a second chance, which is maybe not the best thing to say about your baby dying. I don't know. I don't know.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  I mean, without like wholly extrapolating a lot, or like putting my, I mean, you know, my parents are not of that generation, but that is the type of shit they would do. Like, there are types of parents that would think this is, you know, and would think not talking about it is the best way because we mostly just have negative things to say. So.

• 52:55Robert Evans?

  Let's just pretend it didn't happen.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, yeah, fucking dark, but yes.

• 53:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Not a lot of light levity in this part of the Oprah story, guys.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  I gotta tell you, that's sort of the nature of this show.

• 53:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It'll get more fun when we're playing some clips of TV from the 1980s. But first, here's ads.

• 53:19Speaker 04

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• 53:52Robert Evans?

  This ad is brought to you by ViiV Healthcare, the makers of Dovato Dolutegravir Lamivudine. If you're losing with HIV, do learn about Dovato. Dovato is a complete HIV treatment by prescription only for some people 12 and older. Your doctor will determine if Dovato was right for you. Most HIV pills contain three or four medicines. Dovato is as effective with just two. No other complete HIV pill contains. Fewer medicines than Devoto.

• 54:15Speaker 06

  It is unknown if Devoto is safe and effective if you have HIV and hepatitis B. If you have Hep B, don't stop Devoto without talking to your doctor, as it may get worse or harder to treat. Don't take Devoto if you're allergic to its ingredients, or taking Dofetilide due to serious or life-threatening side effects. If you have a rash or allergic reaction symptoms, stop Devoto and get medical help right away. Other serious or life-threatening side effects include severe liver problems and lactic acid buildup. If you're female or obese, you may be more at risk. Tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems, pregnancy, breastfeeding, or planned pregnancy.

• 54:51Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 55:00Robert Evans?

  So Oprah returns to school the following year with a terrible secret. But also, like, this is kind of, she changes, right? She kind of takes, this is like a new lease on life, almost, is how it's described. She gets heavily into speech and debate. She starts doing competitive, like, drama contests. She starts winning championships. She starts telling her teachers that she's going to be a movie star. According to her drama teacher, Andrea Haynes, Oprah insisted she wanted to change her name from Oprah to Gail, because she thought it would help her in Hollywood. And Haynes advised her to keep going as Oprah, because it was a unique name and Oprah had a unique voice. So probably good advice, given what happens later.

• 55:45Robert Evans?

  The new Oprah gets invited to speak as part of a church event in Los Angeles in 1969. She gets to see Hollywood for the first time. And she came back telling her dad about the stars in front of Mann's Chinese Theater and promising to earn one of her own one day. As a junior, when filling out yearbook questionnaires that asked, "Where will I be in 20 years?", she checked "Famous". So she has made a pretty clear decision about where she wants to go at this point. In 1970, she wins a contest sponsored by the Black Elks Club of Nashville, and she gets invited to deliver a speech in Philadelphia. This was her first big crowd. There's like a 10,000-person audience. And she recalled later only that she felt totally comfortable addressing this massive group of strangers.

• 56:28Robert Evans?

  The remainder of her high school career is basically an endless parade of tournament victories and a surprising amount of jet setting for a high school girl. She's flown to Palo Alto in 1971 for a contest at Stanford. She's the only black student at the National Forensics Competition that year. She gets into student government, winning election as a vice president with a campaign slogan, "Put a little color in your life. Vote for the grand old Oprah." Well, she's at like a majority white school, you know?

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  I appreciate the humor.

• 57:01Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, the grand old Oprah too. Now, one thing that's interesting, because I haven't read as many as I should have of like, stories of the first kind of generation of black kids to get integrated into like majority white schools. But Oprah is in that, that demographic. And at her high school, the black students as a minority decided that they had to work together as a block if they were going to win any school elections. So they all agreed, decided to like, agree ahead of time as to which candidates to put forward, and so they'd only nominate a single black student for each category, and then they would all vote for them. Since the white kids, all, white students all inevitably had like several white students for each role, and there's one black student for each role, and all of the black students

• 57:46Robert Evans?

  are voting as a block, you actually have a chance of doing pretty well. So that's part of how Oprah wins election as school vice president that year, but she has to get a lot of white votes, and she's very good at this. She's been hanging out at the homes of a lot of white classmates as a way for them to like, make their parents look good. And yeah, Oprah, you know, is able to like, meet a lot of people and get a lot of votes this way. She, she, she shows this like, very clear talent for politicking and talent for like, charming people by this point. This is not lost on some of her black peers who claim that she, they, who she claimed to take into calling her an Oreo. The first time this happened, she crossed, the first time this happened, she claims,

• 58:29Robert Evans?

  she crossed the invisible lines in the cafeteria to sit with the white kids. Quote, "In high school, I was the teacher's pet, which created other problems. I never spoke in dialect. I'm not sure why, perhaps I was ashamed. And I was attacked for talking proper like white folks for selling out." And yeah, it's interesting because like, I don't have any reason to doubt that, but it's also evident like she gets these nominations that everyone has to agree on beforehand. So she clearly like, it's not like she doesn't have, you know, any of that support from her peers either because she's able to like, you know, convince them she's the best person to be the school vice president too.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Well, unless it's a calculated bid for electability when we all know how that comes.

• 59:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, I see some echoes of some of our, you know, we're talking about a school election, but I see some echoes of our, our current situation.

• 59:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  It's hard not to read some parallels.

• 59:24Robert Evans?

  No, no.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  The thing about her, I mean, like, first of all, if you are a black person listening, every black person has been called an Oreo at one point in their life. That is not a unique experience at all. Take it from me. But it goes back to what I was saying of like, is it possible that it wasn't that the other black kids didn't like her or like, because they clearly liked her because she was the, the person that they picked. Is it possible that it wasn't about the way that she spoke? Maybe she was being an asshole at times and didn't notice it and like, that's why they were picking on her in this way? Like, it's very easy to internalize this as, oh, they were picking on me because I was smart and ambitious and I was, I spoke proper and got good grades. And it's like, well, is that really what was going on?

• 1:00:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, there's some of it that like, you wanted to be a star. You would talk constantly about being famous and you're, you're probably like, I mean, if, anyone who goes into TV, there's a little bit of that narcissism cooking in the background. That may have been some of what people were recognizing.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:00:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I say that with love for all of my friends in TV, you know?

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  But like, talking about how you're gonna go to Hollywood and be famous is annoying. If you like, that's an annoying thing to do.

• 1:00:34Robert Evans?

  No one likes hearing that, you know?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Robert Evans?

  Like, speaking is, yeah, somebody who went to Hollywood to get into the entertainment industry, right? Nobody wants to hear about that journey.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  Well, there's also like-

• 1:00:44Robert Evans?

  Which is why we, we only have four to six Oscar winning movies every year about doing that.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  There's also like, like, I mean, obviously not okay to call someone an Oreo or attack their blackness for quote, acting white, but also every kid was called something. I'm just like, it's, it, there's a little bit of like, you know, history is written by the winners and the winner is definitely Oprah as far as narrative goes. So like-

• 1:01:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Like, I'm not saying it's good.

• 1:01:14Robert Evans?

  High school.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  But everyone, it's just, it is also high school.

• 1:01:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she is selected to be delegate at the 1971 White House Conference on Children and Youth. The organizer of this delegation was committed to making sure that it was not just a bunch of middle-class white kids. And so the resultant group that he sends to DC is like extremely diverse and they wind up voting on a series of recommendations to the Nixon government, which include legalize marijuana, denounce the invasion of Cambodia, launch a guaranteed income program for all Americans. Didn't work, if you haven't been keeping track of US politics. But hey, we appreciate the effort, kids, who are now

• 1:01:58Robert Evans?

  in their 70s. Yeah, we don't really know how Oprah felt about any of these super progressive goals. She was not very political. As one classmate noted, she's not an activist and the only march she ever took part in was the March of Dimes, which is like a way of fundraising for, I think, cancer research that she primarily uses as a way to get her leg in the door for a show business career. She walks several miles on foot to the studios of WVOL, a black radio station in the Nashville area. And she basically tells the DJ, hey, you're going to sponsor me for this march. The DJ is so surprised by this that he's like, well, all right, I'll do it. And when she comes by to get the donation from him, he tells her, hey, you've got a good voice. We should see what it sounds like on tape.

• 1:02:42Robert Evans?

  And this guy, this DJ, is John Heidelberg. He would later declare himself the man who discovered Oprah. And it's one of those-

• 1:02:50Speaker 05

  I really hate that shit. I really fucking hate that shit. I really like, that is like every fucking like famous or powerful woman ever. It's the man who discovered her. Just like, that's all I need to know. He sucks, right?

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  I thought there'd be a little more producer solidarity here, Sophie.

• 1:03:07Robert Evans?

  No. Here's the thing. I hadn't thought about that at all, Sophie. And I'm not saying you're wrong to be annoyed by that. I was so in this guy's corner because when I hear, oh, young 17-year-old girl meets a DJ who says that maybe she has a future in entertainment.

• 1:03:23Speaker 05

  All bad.

• 1:03:24Robert Evans?

  I was ready for this to be a hideous story. She's never claimed it was. All she says about it and all we know about it is that like John actually gets her- Her first job, uh, and that is like where the whole rest of her career comes from. So it's entirely possible.

• 1:03:38Speaker 05

  Hate that narrative. She got herself a first job.

• 1:03:41Robert Evans?

  I'm not, I'm not saying you're wrong.

• 1:03:43Speaker 05

  I hate the phrasing.

• 1:03:45Robert Evans?

  When I started reading this story, I was like white knuckling it, waiting for like the crimes, you know? Having just done the P Diddy episodes, I was like, oh God, this can't possibly end well.

• 1:03:57Speaker 05

  Robert, I'm the woman behind Robert Evans. See, it's disgusting.

• 1:04:02Robert Evans?

  You definitely are.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  Wait, no, we like that disagreement. Yeah, we like this.

• 1:04:07Speaker 05

  Did not enjoy that, everyone. It was gross.

• 1:04:09Robert Evans?

  I mean, the reality of the situation is that like.

• 1:04:11Speaker 05

  Physically need to give myself a hug. It felt so uncomfortable.

• 1:04:15Robert Evans?

  Every successful person in media has a whole shitload of people who were like big parts of why they got successful. And you know, John Heidelberg isn't the only guy.

• 1:04:25Speaker 05

  They won't let you forget their association.

• 1:04:28Robert Evans?

  How to market.

• 1:04:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:04:29Robert Evans?

  That said, I'm just so happy this didn't turn into another story about like horrible, horrible crimes.

• 1:04:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:36Robert Evans?

  That kind of gave him a pass.

• 1:04:38Speaker 05

  DJ seventeen year old, you know, not usually a good narrative.

• 1:04:42Robert Evans?

  This is the most surprised I've been since we found out that L Ron Hubbard was never a sex criminal. Where I was like, really? Huh?

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:04:50Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 1:04:51Speaker 05

  Good for him. I'm gonna say it.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  That stuff.

• 1:04:54Robert Evans?

  Weirder reasons, very weird reasons. He wanted young people to dig for gold in the ocean.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  That's not a sexual like metaphor.

• 1:05:03Robert Evans?

  Nope.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  He's, he's like a Starcraft guy, basically.

• 1:05:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  He just needed, he needed drones.

• 1:05:09Robert Evans?

  By which you mean a hero, right?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:13Robert Evans?

  Anyway, that's part two of the Oprah story with surprise, not a villain, John Heidelberg. As far as I know, if horrible stories come out about John Heidelberg after this, look, I'm not defending the bad. I was just shocked that this didn't go in a dark place.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. What a weird twist.

• 1:05:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah. One DJ who is not a creep that we can prove.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Robert Evans?

  Right now.

• 1:05:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38Robert Evans?

  Honestly, you are in the top one cent of morality of moral DJs if you don't commit a sex crime. Like, that's so rare for the DJ community.

• 1:05:48Speaker 05

  Uh, and I would like to formally apologize to our editor, DJ Daniel, for that comment.

• 1:05:54Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, apologize to John Heidelberg, too, who I think is dead.

• 1:05:58Speaker 05

  I'm not going to.

• 1:05:59Robert Evans?

  Okay.

• 1:06:00Speaker 05

  But, um.

• 1:06:01Robert Evans?

  Ouch. Poor John.

• 1:06:04Speaker 05

  I don't need to apologize to men. I'm good. I'm good.

• 1:06:09Robert Evans?

  Uh, anyway, that's our episode, everybody. How are we feeling about Oprah so far? Don't worry, next week, next week is where the question will start.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:18Robert Evans?

  I didn't feel good, like, I don't know.

• 1:06:20Speaker 05

  Concerned?

• 1:06:21Robert Evans?

  Should I have, like, summarized all of the bad things as bullet points? I felt like the whole story needed to be told.

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I remain curious to see how they connect. Because this, this, if, if the bad stuff is kind of what I imagine it is, this would be the least, the least, like, connective tissue between Act X1 and 2 and Acts, you know, the late, the B-side, basically.

• 1:06:46Robert Evans?

  The connective tissue, and this is to an extent stuff that Oprah will even admit, is that she grows up desperate to please and that that is partly responsible for, like, her, number one, some of the stuff, like, some of her contributions to toxic diet culture. But also maybe part of why she does not vet some of these, you know, Dr. Oz types the way that she ought to have, right? Like, I think you can draw some lines there between, like, some of the aspects of her career that are not ideal. Um, but yeah, uh, I, I gotta say, reading through this, this, she, it is definitely the most sympathetic person whose childhood we've talked about here.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  When you were talking about her, like, heyday, when she was going to Hollywood and winning speeches and elections, it was hard for me to not feel, I was kind of, like, beaming, thinking about this time in her life.

• 1:07:38Robert Evans?

  Good for you, girl. Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  Like, I was like, yeah, like, good, like, I'm imagining, like, a montage of her really moving up, and I guess I'm waiting to see how, when the other shoe drops.

• 1:07:48Robert Evans?

  I guess from that point of view, the good news is, things don't ever go back. Bad for Oprah.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Robert Evans?

  Some things that go well for Oprah go bad for the rest of us.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  I wonder.

• 1:08:01Robert Evans?

  But yeah. Anyway, you got some pluggables?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  I could go. Um, you, I think I went first last time.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, all right. Well, you could check out my podcast on iHeart Radio called There Are No Girls on the Internet, or my other podcast with the Mozilla Foundation, Makers of Firefox, all about power and people and ethics in AI called IRL. New season coming soon. Follow me on Instagram at Bridget Marie in DC. Yeah.

• 1:08:30Robert Evans?

  Excellent. That's the week, everybody. Go home and.

• 1:08:35Speaker 05

  Well, are you gonna let, are you gonna let Andrew?

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Just fine. Yo is racist. It's fine. It doesn't matter.

• 1:08:41Robert Evans?

  I'm sorry, Andrew. I haven't slept in three days.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't worry about it. Andrew, Andrew T, fucking, who cares? Yo is racist. That's fine.

• 1:08:48Robert Evans?

  Check out Yo Is This Racist. And remember, everybody, don't, don't hang out with DJs. It usually doesn't go this well.

• 1:08:55Speaker 05

  Except, except DJ Daniel. DJ Daniel's the best.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  And shout out to Andrew. I love your DJ Screw shirt.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. This is a bootleg.

• 1:09:08Speaker 05

  Bye.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  I mean, probably don't hang out with DJ Screw either.

• 1:09:16Speaker 05

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com slash at Behind the Bastards.

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