CZM Rewind: Part One: The Rush Limbaugh Episodes with Paul F. Tompkins

Robert is joined by Paul F. Tompkins to discuss Rush Limbaugh. FOOTNOTES: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-apr-29-na-limbaugh29-story.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/11/usa.julianborger1 https://longreads.com/2019/03/15/how-the-shock-jock-became-the-outrage-jock/ https://longreads.com/2019/03/15/how-the-shock-jock-became-the-outrage-jock/%C2%A0 https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2009/05/rush-limbaugh200905 https://newrepublic.com/article/161405/rush-limbaugh-racist-sexist-conservative-media-worse https://www.metroweekly.com/2021/02/rush-limbaugh-mocked-gay-people-dying-from-aids-on-his-radio-show/ https://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/16/magazine/the-rush-hours.html https://www.businessinsider.com/presidential-medal-awardee-rush-limbaughs-racist-and-sexist-comments-2020-2 https://www.politico.com/story/2012/03/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-rush-073661 https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/opinion/politics/rush-limbaugh-conservative-media.html See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Robert Evans?

  Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and you know, we're still coming down from our end of the year celebration. I'm headed off to CES where we'll be doing reporting before it could happen here and better offline. We're going to be coming back for the new year soon. The Oprah episodes will be in the can. Very excited to introduce you all to that. But for this week, we're going to be going back to a rerun. So please enjoy the story of Rush Limbaugh.

• 0:34Speaker 01

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• 2:56Robert Evans?

  Welcome to Behind the Bastards, the podcast that I continually fail to introduce like a professional, which is particularly shameful this week because our guest is a very professional voice artist, Mr. Paul F. Tompkins.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:17Robert Evans?

  Thank you for being here, Paul. You are the voice of a lot of characters that, that, that a lot of people enjoy. I think most famously, to me at least, is, is Mr. Peanut Butter.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  To be fair, I'm also the voice of a lot of characters that people hate.

• 3:31Robert Evans?

  That's true. That's true. Because if you're really achieving as an artist, a lot of people are going to hate anything that you do. That's the, that's the mark of success.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  You're doing it right. Exactly.

• 3:42Robert Evans?

  And today we're talking about a truly historical success of a creative mind.

• 3:50Robert Evans?

  A man hated by tens of millions of people and who should be hated by billions. A man who has done, I would say, incalculable harm to the future of human life and all life on this planet. Mr. Rush Limbaugh.

• 4:02Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 4:03Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah. Paul, what, do you have any kind of history with Rush Limbaugh? Like in terms of your upbringing and stuff? I don't know much about how you grew up.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Do you know what? I forgot, uh, that, I forgot, first of all, I forgot how long he's been around. And I remember watching him in his earliest days on TV. And watching that show like as a goof, the way I would watch, you know, the Morton Downey Jr. Show or Wally George or whatever. And just like, who is this clown? And he's like doing this, this sort of, you know, what seemed like a character, you know, at the time. Because he, I think he fancied himself an entertainer and had a show that had little skits in it and stuff like that. And I. I thought he was just ridiculous and so uh I watched him ironically and um and then

• 4:52Speaker 03

  things just got worse like I I sort of got tired of it. I remember getting tired of it and like, okay, this is just like the same thing over and over again and it's not it's not pushing that uh that button in my ironic pleasure center anymore. So I just stopped watching, but he um despite despite my my jumping ship, he continued to do what he was doing.

• 5:18Robert Evans?

  He lost the Paul F. Tompkins demographic, but he kept the my parents and everyone that raised me demographic. So was your upbringing particularly political, would you say?

• 5:29Speaker 03

  Not, you know what? Not super political. I was raised, uh, my family was a um, a lower middle class, a big Catholic family um in Philadelphia in in a sort of suburb called Mount Airy and we were both of my my family was like lifelong Democrats, you know, Philadelphia Democrats. And so that was kind of it. Like we were just sort of um, you know, uh, like a conservative liberal family. Uh, and um, yeah, I, I, we, we didn't talk a lot about politics in the house growing up. Um, and that was kind of it. But I knew

• 6:14Speaker 03

  that we were, we were liberal Democrats, you know, who were weirdly enough guided by guided by, I'm not even gonna say faith. I think we were guided by my parents' um, sort of morals where they were greatest generation depression babies. Um, and uh, they voted straight Democrat. Um, but they were not like, even though we were Catholic, it was like, we were not single issue voters, you know?

• 6:46Speaker 03

  But they but my family was my parents were brought up with the the same sort of prejudices that people of their generation were brought up with, you know, but but yeah, politics did not figure into it. It was like when I got when I got, you know, a little older and out of the house and everything, that's when I started, you know, investigating my own politics and it was like a long

• 7:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  A journey, you know?

• 7:11Robert Evans?

  That is very exciting to me, just because you're you're you you came from kind of more of a, you know, a liberal background and your introduction to Rush Limbaugh was kind of watching it as a character, right?

• 7:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:24Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I grew up very conservative. My parents were also lower middle class, verging on poor in when I was like, kind of little, a lot of economic anxiety, but extremely conservative.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:34Robert Evans?

  I would say like our family religion was conservatism. And so Rush Limbaugh was caught whenever I was driving with my mom or my dad, Rush was on, we would we would we listened to him. My parents talked about him. So my upbringing with him was that this guy is like the prophet of of what's what's right, you know, both in the political sense and in the moral sense.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 7:54Robert Evans?

  So I'm very excited about this and I'm excited that you know who Morton Downey Jr. is because we're going to be talking about him a bit, too.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 8:00Robert Evans?

  So, yeah, Rush Limbaugh is it's hard to oversell this guy's influence on our current state of like, I think it would be fair to say we're kind of like verging on civil conflict right now between the right and left in the United States.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 8:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, and I think Rush Limbaugh has a huge, might be the man most responsible for that.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  I I totally agree that his influence cannot be, is it overestimated?

• 8:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it cannot be overestimated.

• 8:29Speaker 03

  It's like I I the day he died, I tweeted.

• 8:34Robert Evans?

  Love that laugh.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  I tweeted, if I had to say something positive, I guess if I had to say something positive, I'm glad Rush Limbaugh lived long enough to get cancer and die.

• 8:47Speaker 03

  And then that got that got picked up by Foxnews.com. They did a roundup of, you know, liberals celebrating

• 8:55Robert Evans?

  Cheering his death.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  Rush Limbaugh's death, which really was just like, hey, if you want to harass some people, here's here's who to harass. And I had people I had people in my mentions on Twitter, like saying things like.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Uh, you better pray you never meet me.

• 9:14Speaker 03

  Like, people implying violence because I said, I'm glad Rush Limbaugh is dead. I had somebody call my, call my house and say, Rush Limbaugh contributed far more good to society than you ever will. Fuck you.

• 9:30Robert Evans?

  My god.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  For Rush Limbaugh. This guy, but I mean, this guy had a show. He had a show. He wasn't a legislator. He wasn't, he wasn't like some, some sort of freedom fighter. This guy just had a show where he said mean things.

• 9:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah, where, where he repeatedly celebrated the deaths of his enemies and made half a billion dollars doing it. Yeah. Okay. Let's, let's get into Rush's life. So the first thing I learned about him when I started digging him into him, that may, might be the thing I learned about him that surprised me the most. Rush is not short for anything. Rush is a full, a full first name. Uh, and in fact, Rush Limbaugh is the third Rush Limbaugh in his family line. They are very proud of that name. His grandpa, Rush Senior, was born and raised in Bolinger County, Missouri. Uh, so he and I are both Missouri babies. He grew up into a world that was changing rapidly. Uh, Rush Senior saw an electric light for the first time when he was 12. He took his first railroad trip in 1904 to see the World's Fair in St. Louis.

• 10:32Speaker 04

  He, I always thought that was like one of those things where he was like, I choose that.

• 10:36Robert Evans?

  That is the most shocking thing about him. He, Rush Limbaugh is not only his full name. It is the only name his family seems to give their firstborn sons.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Hey, if it ain't broke.

• 10:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah, if it ain't broke. Uh, so Rush, uh, Rush Senior became a lawyer. Uh, he opened an office in Cape Girardeau, um, Missouri, and he basically never left the town again. He retired in 1994 at the age of 102, which I mention because it suggests that all those cigars Rush, where's our Rush Limbaugh smoked, saved us about 32 years more of his show.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Wait, I'm sorry. Did you say he retired at 102?

• 11:11Robert Evans?

  In 1994. Yeah.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  And then how long did he live after that? Did he get to enjoy his retirement?

• 11:17Robert Evans?

  I think he died immediately. From what, yeah, like he's one of those guys who worked until he died, basically.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  Say, some people are like that, you know?

• 11:26Robert Evans?

  His, his grandson was like that. So Rush Senior was elected to the Missouri House of Representatives when he was 40. His main political issue was fighting FDR and the New Deal, which shouldn't be surprising to anybody, right? This is deeply, deeply embedded in the Rush Limbaugh line. In 1936, Rush Limbaugh Senior was a Republican delegate at the Republican National Convention, where he helped nominate Alf Landon for the noble job of losing to Franklin Delano Roosevelt in an election. You don't, nobody, nobody was better at campaigning than FDR. It was never a successful thing to run against that man.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  I know, somebody had to be his Washington generals.

• 12:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Alf Landon, the Washington generals of Republican politics. So my main source for the early life and family history of Rush Limbaugh is a fairly comprehensive, if I would say kind of fawning biography of Limbaugh by Zev Chappets. And Zev, it's a weird first name, Z E apostrophe E V Chappets. He notes that, over the course of decades of lawyering, Rush Senior, quote, quietly but inevitably became well-to-do, which is an interesting way of phrasing, which is like, there was no stopping it. He just got, it was kind of a way of making it seem like he just, he didn't really want to become rich, he just became rich, you know?

• 12:43Speaker 03

  That is the most suspicious sounding phrase I've heard in a long time.

• 12:48Robert Evans?

  Inevitably, quietly and inevitably got rich.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  It's sinister, my god.

• 12:52Robert Evans?

  It is very sinister. So Rush Junior, who is our Rush Limbaugh's father, was born at some point, quick Googling, obviously he had to have been born, quick Googling didn't return a date. He's the only Rush Limbaugh without a Wikipedia page, which I guess, kind of a, kind of a shot to him. I could have probably found it out if I'd really dug into it, but it doesn't really matter that much for our purposes.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, he did what he had to do, he gave us Rush.

• 13:17Robert Evans?

  He gave us our Rush, yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Our Rush.

• 13:20Robert Evans?

  Our Rush.

• 13:22Robert Evans?

  So Rush Jr. is only important for the impact that he had on R. Rush. He was a World War II combat pilot, which is undeniably rad. You gotta give him that. And his biography notes that he maintained a military crew cut for his entire life. He was heavyset and topped at about 300 pounds, which earned him the nickname Big Rush.

• 13:46Robert Evans?

  Big Rush?

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Man, one of those nicknames that you you cannot combat. Like it's like, no, we're this is big rush.

• 13:52Robert Evans?

  Sorry, Big Rush. Sorry, Big Rush.

• 13:54Speaker 03

  You can ask politely, it's not gonna happen.

• 13:56Robert Evans?

  Why you in a big rush?

• 14:00Robert Evans?

  So Big Rush became an attorney.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  That's what he would tell people like, ah, cuz I'm always rushing around.

• 14:05Robert Evans?

  I'm always rushing around. So Big Rush became an attorney like his dad and his brother, who eventually went on to become a federal judge. Big Rush was a powerful orator and often gave speeches in the town of Cape Girardeau during holidays. His very conservative politics influenced these speeches, and his most famous one was a tearful hagiographic speech about our nation's saintly founding fathers. Again, you can see he clearly had kind of the same gift of gab that R. Rush has. And I you have to admit, if you want, if you know anything about R. Rush Limbaugh, he was an undeniably talented broadcaster. He was very good at what he did. That's why he had the impact that he had.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 14:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, R. Rush Limbaugh, of Rush Hudson Limbaugh III, to give his full name, was born in Cape Girardeau, Mississippi, on January or Missouri, sorry, on January 12, 1951. By all accounts, he had a financially comfortable upbringing with a brother and a parents who loved him. Baby Rush spent his childhood imbibing a steady diet of his dad's rants about scummy liberals and evil conniving communists. One of R. Rush's childhood friends recalls of Big Rush of his dad, quote, "We'd go over to his house sometimes just to watch him watch the six o'clock news. He'd sit in front of the television, drinking black cherry pop, eating popcorn, and just railing at the anchorman and the reporters. He'd yell at Dan Rather, 'They're all typical liberals, and Rather's the worst one of the bunch.' And we'd try to keep him going, you know?

• 15:25Robert Evans?

  Mister Rush, what do you think about this? Mister Rush, what do you think about that? Sometimes he'd say, Kinder, that was this friend's name, "You're gonna be the first Dutchman on the moon." I don't know exactly what he meant by that, but he was trying to be friendly. I liked him, but he was a harsh taskmaster with his sons. An odd comment.

• 15:42Speaker 04

  That's so weird.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  So Rush has a has a brother or?

• 15:47Robert Evans?

  Rush has a brother. He has a brother, David, who is his younger brother. No, no, no. I think that's the oldest, the oldest son is the Rush, gets the Rush name.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, they didn't do a George for him.

• 15:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. David becomes like a lawyer, doesn't really leave Cape Girardeau and is like, um, you know, he's, he's, he unlike his brother, has a family, has like a wife that he's, you know, stays with and all that stuff.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Did he quietly but inevitably become wealthy?

• 16:12Robert Evans?

  I think, yeah, I think he was born wealthy. He and his brother were both born rich as hell.

• 16:17Robert Evans?

  So, and, and our Rush's brother David provided an even more telling glimpse of kind of what their childhood was like under Big Rush. My dad stood out. Sometimes he provoked people who didn't agree with him to violence. Once, for example, he was in a bar slamming FDR and a couple guys jumped him and beat him up. I never did ask him the details of that one, but it was a couple guys, not a fair fight. I know that much. I have to assume he deserved to get the shit kicked out of him.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, 100%.

• 16:41Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna guess he was saying something like, the people who got screwed over in the Great Depression deserve to starve to death. We shouldn't be helping. That's gonna be my guess. And he got the shit kicked out of him by some WPA guys, something like that.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  If your name is, if your name is Big Rush and two guys go after you, I think that's a fair fight.

• 16:58Robert Evans?

  That's a fair fight. You're big, you know?

• 17:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's not little Rush.

• 17:01Robert Evans?

  He's 300 pounds. They're probably each about a buck 50, you know? Fair fight.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 17:06Robert Evans?

  Fair fight by mass.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Thin from being poor.

• 17:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah. That's, so, uh, our Rush was born into the Eisenhower years, which will probably always be remembered as like the high point of both capitalism and the United States. This period of peak American exceptionalism imprinted itself deeply on Russia's growing brain. His father was made a special ambassador to India's legal system. Their family got their first television. Um, yeah, yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 03

  What does that mean?

• 17:35Robert Evans?

  I think it means, you know, India's was newly independent in the Eisenhower years, right? They had just, the UK had just left. They had just partitioned with Pakistan. They're developing their own independent legal system and they're a democracy that was heavily based, at least initially on the US. So the president like picked guys who were established lawyers, like Big Rush and also established Republicans to be kind of, help set up the Indian legal system.

• 18:00Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 18:02Robert Evans?

  That's kind of what happened. So yeah, his, his father's a big man in Republican politics. Rush grows up seeing in the period where America is undeniably like, like literally is half of the global economy, right? That's a very significant thing for him. Um, so the family in the 50s gets their first TV, but radio is still the dominant method of entertainment in those days. And Rush's childhood and early adolescence coincided with the birth of rock and roll and the absolute peak of cultural relevance for DJs. Um, my dad grew up at a pretty similar period of time. He's like seven or eight years younger than Rush. Um, and he, he grew up, the only thing my dad ever wanted to be was a DJ and he wasn't a radio DJ for like 20, 30 years. You know, that was like the coolest thing

• 18:44Robert Evans?

  that you could do, right? You didn't have Spotify. You didn't have the internet. People learned about new music from DJs who were kind of like picking what they were going to play on the radio. It was the like the absolute raddest thing you could be. And that's what Rush, like he, he idolizes these big DJs of the time. And that's all he wants to be for basically his entire young life is a DJ. Yeah. Now, when Rush was three, Brown versus the Board of Education was ruled on by the Supreme Court, which led to the integration of US schools. Now, Zev Chaffetz doesn't write anything specific in the biography about how Rush senior talked about race to his son. I, I have not, we don't get any of that information. And I'm not necessarily blaming

• 19:25Robert Evans?

  Chaffetz for that because I think the Rush family is very PR savvy. They don't talk about it. You know, I don't know who he would have gotten that info from. Right. Um, but our Rush would have definitely picked up on the great deal of conflict in Cape Girardeau over racial matters. Uh, Missouri is an odd state in that it is both midwestern and southern. During the civil war, it was split between Yankee and Confederate sympathizers. And the town that Rush grew up in had monuments to the dead of both sides. There was tremendous resistance to the idea of integration of schools in Missouri and in Cape Girardeau. Uh, and Zev Chaffetz, to his credit, writes about this, quote, "In 1952, Cape built its white students a new school, Central High. Blacks continued to attend Cobb High School,

• 20:07Robert Evans?

  but the Supreme Court and basketball changed that. Cape Girardeau took its high- Basketball very seriously and sometimes contended for the state title. The 1953 team was expected to be a powerhouse, but word got around that the kids from Cobb were even better. An informal game was arranged between Central and Cobb High, says historian Frank Nickel. Cobb won shortly thereafter. Cobb mysteriously burned down. Black students went to school in churches and private homes that year, but a more permanent solution was. Yeah, that's the kind of town he grows up in. The black kids win at basketball and they burn their school down.

• 20:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 20:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Cape Girardeau is a very racist town. Um, and kind of more to the point, like, we don't know exactly what, what Rush's dad would have said about any of this. We don't know that he would have supported the burning down of the black school. We don't know that he wouldn't, though.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 20:58Robert Evans?

  Um, and you know, the, the conservatives were definitely more on the don't integrate side of things, right? Uh, now a compromise, a compromise was eventually reached in Cape Girardeau and the compromise was that black kids would be allowed to attend Central High, but they would be put in special classes that were taught by former teachers of Cobb, the school that had been burned down. Um, this was kind of integrating by not integrating. So there were black and white kids in the same school, but not in the same classes. And this is the way things were in Cape Girardeau when Rush Limbaugh started school. Um, so yeah, that's, you, you can infer from that what you will, based on some of the things Rush Limbaugh says and does later in life. I think we're missing some important information about what his dad thought about black people.

• 21:42Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I don't remember him ever, uh, being concerned as to the investigation of that fire.

• 21:49Robert Evans?

  I don't think he was.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  Burned down Cobb High School.

• 21:51Robert Evans?

  He might've done it, like, that is rampant and irresponsible speculation on my part. But also, uh, the only reason I think he wouldn't have is that he wouldn't have been able to run away from it in my, from what I can tell. Um, he didn't do well in that fight is all I'm saying. So Rush had an upbringing that would have been fairly standard for a rich kid of his era. He played basketball. He did chores. He had plenty of friends. He was not an overly active kid. He did not like sports. He hated his one year in the Cub Scouts. Rush Limbaugh hates the outdoors his entire life. Uh, um.

• 22:31Robert Evans?

  He did not like school, but he was popular largely because his family was rich and had a huge basement with a pool table and a bunch of other luxuries. The kids Rush hung out with during this time give us some of our best hints about the darker elements of his childhood. One of them told Ziv Chaffetz, quote, "Rush's dad didn't suffer fools lightly. He was always very disapproving of Rush's ambitions to have a career in radio. Rush's mom was a kind, gentle person, but his dad could be pretty rough. He was not above calling down Rush and David in front of their friends, and when he did it, there was a string of expletives attached. I saw that happen many times." So, kind of abusive, not, I don't think by the standards of the time, and I haven't heard any that he was like beating his kids or anything, but kind of mentally abusive.

• 23:15Robert Evans?

  Again, probably more or less in line with what most, most men of his social class would have been like to their kids, you know? I don't think this was abnormal.

• 23:24Speaker 03

  I mean, how many, how many of these guys were born out of the, the, the sort of ritual humiliation by their fathers in front of an audience?

• 23:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I think most of them.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, it's such a, it's such a common thing that I, I guess I'm just glad my dad was a guy who didn't say anything ever.

• 23:45Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's better than humiliating you in front of your friends when you say something he disagrees with. So, every one of Rush's early friends that I've seen interviewed is very consistent about the fact that he was not political from an early age. He rarely if ever talked politics and he did not express strong beliefs. One of his friends even remembers him as a particularly good debater in school because, quote, "He could argue either side of a proposition without missing a beat." When he did express political opinions, they were generally conservative. One friend noted that the only time he saw child Rush express a strong political sentiment was after the 1960 presidential election, when Rush was nine. Quote, "Rush wrote on a drywall, Kennedy won, darn, Nixon lost, shucks." So.

• 24:32Robert Evans?

  Grows up conservative because his dad is conservative, but it's clearly politics is not a big part of his life from an early age. He's not like Ben Shapiro, right? Where from the get-go, he's being sort of like focused into becoming a political commentator. That does not happen with Rush Limbaugh.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Right. He's more from the darn shucks school of-

• 24:49Robert Evans?

  The darn shucks school of political commentary. Yeah. So Rush got his first gig at age 13, working at a downtown barber shop. He later told his biographer that he liked the gig because it gave him a chance to talk to adults, who he preferred to his peers because "I didn't think kids were interesting." When it came to girls, Rush was as awkward as you'd expect. He was bad at sports, heavyset, and not at all smooth. In his 1993 biography, "The Rush Limbaugh Story," biographer Paul Colford recalls one particularly embarrassing incident during a game of spin the bottle when Rush was a teenager. He spun the bottle and it stopped at, and it stopped pointing at, "the prettiest girl at the party," which is how she's described in this anecdote. Quote, "She looked at him and gasped. Couldn't do it. Not with him, that is. And everyone

• 25:34Robert Evans?

  in the room witnessed his humiliation. It was a wound he would nurse forever." Ah, you, yeah.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 25:44Speaker 04

  Thank you, biographer, for that.

• 25:49Robert Evans?

  And it's one of those things, you know, I, I think there's, I, I'm sure it had, this has an impact on the kind of man he becomes, but also I think most of us have a moment like that where we have a crush on some person of the opposite or the same sex, and they're not into us, and it's horribly embarrassing. It's a pretty normal, and most of us don't grow up to destroy civil society and the environment, right?

• 26:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 26:11Robert Evans?

  Yeah. We've all been there. And Rush was there too. Obviously, this is a part of whatever toxic stew gets cooked up in him. But I don't know how, like, it's one of those things, I think you can kind of lean too much on, oh, this is why. He was always forever humiliated by this thing, and that's why he became the man he was. Like, well, we all have that in our past, and we all don't do this shit.

• 26:30Speaker 03

  It's very much like the, the original origin story of Lex Luthor, that Superman blew out his hair. Superman, Superman was responsible for him going prematurely bald, and he, he became a supervillain because of this.

• 26:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, and you know, there are a lot of other bald men in that world who don't become supervillains.

• 26:52Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 26:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So Big Rush wanted his son to become a lawyer or to do something else with a similar sort of gravitas, right? The Limbaas were big men in Cape Girardeau. They were kind of like the, the, the primary, like the most prominent men in the entire town. And he, Big Rush, wanted his son to follow in his footsteps and do something respectable. Didn't have to be a lawyer, go into politics, do something important, right? Do something that he can brag about to the other rich guys. Now, the fact that young Rush only ever wanted to be on the radio infuriated his father. For his part, Rush seems to suspect that his love of radio was born in part from his hatred of school. Quote, "My mother would be fixing me breakfast and I'd be listening to the guy on the radio. He'd be having fun and I was preparing to go to prison."

• 27:37Speaker 03

  God, I mean, join the club, Rush.

• 27:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we all hate school. It's trash.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  Everybody, it never occurred to me to relate to the guy on the radio, like, how come he gets to have fun? This full grown adult and I have to go to school?

• 27:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of kids, let's, I'll, I'll take my adopted hometown, Portland, for example, a lot of kids there who hate school. They don't destroy the entire planet, they just break Starbucks windows on the weekends. And that's much healthier, Rush. You can just buck up a Starbucks if you're, if you're nursing some rage at the, the educational industrial complex or whatever. So despite his irritation, Big Rush clearly did love his son. And when little Rush was 16, his dad used some of his local clout to get his son a part-time job at the local radio station.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 28:27Robert Evans?

  Rush started doing what you today call intern shit, you know, fetching coffee, cleaning up, handling odd tasks here and there. And eventually he was allowed to actually introduce and play records on air. The summer before his senior year of high school, Big Rush paid for his son to attend a six-week radio engineering course in Dallas. This was a big moment for Rush. He was away from home for the first time, living in a boarding house. He started smoking cigarettes, thank God, and he got a license that allowed him to actually.

• 28:56Robert Evans?

  And he got a license that allowed him to actually run the radio without adult supervision. Once he had this, station management let him hang out alone all weekend and weekdays after school, playing records and for the first time presenting himself to an audience on air. So he gets started, and this is one of those things. His dad, clearly there are some abusive elements of their relationship. His dad is, is not supportive of Rush's radio career, but also is like, his dad is, doesn't think it's a good idea, but also enables him, right? Like not just gets him a job, but pays for him to get educated. So we get, this is not a guy, I'm sure, you know, he had his frustrations with his father. This is not a guy who grows up with a dad who just doesn't get him and refuses to support him. This is a very supportive upbringing this kid has, even though his father's not.

• 29:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. So, uh, Rush, you know, becomes kind of famous within his, you know, the teen set at his town because he's the guy with the radio show and in high school. And he was not at all political at this point. His most well-known bit involved reading the daily beauty tips that the Associated Press sent out back then. Um, which he like, and he would like kind of mock the beauty tips because he thought it was silly that the AP was sending out daily beauty tips, which is fair. It is, that is a silly thing for the AP to do. Um, now Rush's professional idol at this point was a guy named Larry Lujak, uh, Lujak, a Chicago DJ who was famous for his sense of humor and comedic stylings.

• 30:22Robert Evans?

  Rush later called him the only person I ever copied. Lujak was known for audibly shuffling papers during his monologues in different bits, a tactic Limbaugh copied and used repeatedly through his decades on air. Um, and as in kind of-

• 30:36Speaker 03

  That was like his signature bit?

• 30:39Robert Evans?

  No, no, no. He wasn't a bit, but it was like a thing he would do to emphasize that like, I've got evidence or I've got information here, you know? It was a thing Rush, and it was a big Rush Limbaugh thing, you know? It's, it's how you convince people who maybe aren't that credible that you, you have good information, right?

• 30:55Speaker 03

  It's written down. It must be. Yeah. He's been handed, he's been handed to this ream of paper that has information on it. So it's true. But, but Lujak was not a political guy, right? He was just a DJ?

• 31:05Robert Evans?

  No, he was not. And he fucking hated Rush Limbaugh. Cause when Rush got famous in the early nineties, Rush was like, yeah, Larry Lujak is the only man I ever copied. And they asked Lujak about it and his response was basically, fuck that guy.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  Bless you.

• 31:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah, good man. Yeah, yeah, you can't, you can't pick who finds you influential, you know? Yeah. Um.

• 31:30Robert Evans?

  So back in those days, again, being a radio DJ was pretty much the coolest thing you could do. And Rush's side job made him very popular at high school. He even signed autographs on a few occasions. The work was intoxicating and Rush seemed to know at once that this was what he wanted to dedicate his life to doing. Obviously, his ambitions did not make his father happy. And during Rush's last year of childhood, his dad would constantly yell at him for wanting to waste his life on the radio. No amount of paternal ill will was enough to pull Rush Limbaugh away from his dream, though. He was miserable at home and his father, with his father after graduating. He enrolled in a local college just to please the old man, but he couldn't actually bring himself to go to school very often. Sometimes his mother would drive him to college just to make sure that he went. Rush came of age

• 32:14Robert Evans?

  during one of the most exciting and tumultuous periods in US history. I mean, he's, he's literally becoming an adult in like 1968, I think. Um, like, some shit went down that year, you know, there's a lot of teenagers doing some exciting things. Um, now, given how Rush turned out, you might expect him to have been active and involved in the politics of his time, but he was not. And to hear him tell it now, or to hear him tell it when he related this to his biographer, the civil rights movement in the Vietnam years basically all passed him by. He never attended political rallies. He only dimly remembers hearing of Bobby Kennedy's death. When Martin Luther King Jr. Was assassinated, his radio station asked him to help send out news reports for the local NBC affiliate because there were uprisings all around the country. And Rush did this, but he didn't actually engage with

• 32:58Robert Evans?

  the news. He was not actually interested in what was happening. He was just interested in kind of the business of how news was disseminated.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 33:05Robert Evans?

  Quote, this is what he said later, "I remember talking to them about the broadcast business, NBC. I was 17, playing records on the radio, not commenting on news. I don't recall feeling any concern." So that is how, again, a lot of privilege, there are massive race-based uprisings in a number of US cities. Hundreds of thousands of National Guard troops are called up as after the civil rights leader is, is assassinated. The country is on the brink of open conflict. And Rush Limbaugh, I don't give a fuck. Like, I just want to play my records, you know?

• 33:34Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 33:35Robert Evans?

  He's just a rich white kid, you know, in the middle of Missouri. He doesn't give a shit.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  It's so wild to think about someone being alive at that time.

• 33:43Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 03

  And not having a strong feeling either way about anything that's going on.

• 33:48Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's not, doesn't even have strong, hard right sympathies. He just doesn't give a fuck about it, right?

• 33:52Speaker 03

  That is like a kind of privilege that I can't even begin to fathom.

• 33:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And it is important that like, he's not just taking the right wing side of things where like, well, yeah, fuck Martin Luther King, he was a commie. He just doesn't care. Like, none of this even makes it into his mind.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  Like the idea that you would say, Martin Luther King, who is that again?

• 34:11Robert Evans?

  That, which guy? Bobby who got killed? Keno what?

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Dimly aware that RFK was assassinated.

• 34:21Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's, it's quite a thing. So I'm going to quote now from a write-up in the New York Times that ably summarizes Rush Limbaugh's early twenties. Quote, "Love of radio eventually won out over formal education and he dropped out of a local college after a year, appalling his parents. Then began a long checkered odyssey, typical of radio. Limbaugh held and lost jobs in several cities, working under different names and broadcast styles. He was Rusty Sharp and Jeff Christie. He was a DJ, a newsreader, a talk host. In each place, he developed components of what would later emerge as the Limbaugh style. In Pittsburgh, he was a prankster, convincing listeners that he could see them through a new experimental picture phone."

• 35:02Robert Evans?

  So he's kind of like a drive time morning DJ, like a, hey, yeah, we're gonna, I don't know, I can't do the DJ voice, but like playing like sound bits and doing, doing gags. Like he's very, like not even really a shock jock yet, because he's not like, that has, that's like starting to evolve in this period of time.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:22Robert Evans?

  I did find some audio from one of Rush's very first broadcasts in 1974, while he was still in Pittsburgh. And I think it's interesting because in it, you can hear Rush in mid-transition from that drive time DJ voice to the voice of the Rush Limbaugh who would help breed a modern American fascist movement. So here he is on WXZ's solid rock and gold show. So without further ado, here is Rush Limbaugh in 1974.

• 35:48Speaker 05

  Also appearing with Sean and I at opening the show will be Billy Cook's Rainbows and Gypsies. See the exciting Day of the Dolphin, rated PG, now showing at the Ardmore Drive-In, Bellevue, Bethel Cinema, Camp Horn Drive-In, Carnegie Cinema, and Cinema World. Day of the Dolphin also showing at the Hampton Plaza, McKee Cinema, Oaks, Penn Hills, Regent, and Rockton Theaters. See Day of the Dolphin now at the East Wicely, South Hills, South Park Drive-In, South Hills Drive-In, and Sunset View Drive-In. I certainly hope new people are writing all of this down. Don't miss a Day of the Dolphin, it is now showing at the...

• 36:20Robert Evans?

  So, very silly, as all radio from the 1970's sounds today, right? It is most radio today sounds. But also, like, there's, you would never have guessed, based on his early performances, that he was going to become what he became, right?

• 36:34Speaker 03

  No. I mean, look, he has, undeniably, great voice.

• 36:38Robert Evans?

  Great voice.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Uh, very good at imparting information, like, actual, factual information. This movie is for sure playing here at this time.

• 36:47Robert Evans?

  Day of the Dolphin, absolutely. I can't wait to see it.

• 36:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's the exciting movie, Day of the Dolphin. But, that he's just straight reading the things that you cannot misinterpret in any way. If only he'd stuck to that. But, uh, yeah, I, it's so, I guess, I don't want to get ahead of us, get ahead of ourselves, but, the idea that this guy would not be content doing just this, is, like, what, when does it, the idea that it turns, like, uh, I don't know, I don't, okay, I'm sorry.

• 37:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we'll get to that.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I imagine we will.

• 37:25Robert Evans?

  I think it's fair to say, this is what he loved, and he would have been perfectly happy if he could have made a good, we're getting to kind of like a Hitler at art school story, where like, yeah, maybe if he'd gotten to keep being a drive-time radio DJ, things would have been better.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  You know, I had a conversation with a friend of mine, who, who also does podcasts and radio, and... For neither of us, it is our thing, our first thing, but we shared a, we had a conversation where we, we shared our love of being good at reading copy. Like when you have to do ads, there is something that's weirdly satisfying about like, oh, I sound like a guy on the radio. Like I'm doing a good job at reading this and making it sound natural and whatever. And it's like, there it like, there's, isn't that enough? Isn't that enough? That there's, there's, it is a good feeling when you nail an ad read.

• 38:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It's, I mean, I think, I think everyone who does a, who, who, who does a job that like, I think pretty much everyone who has worked, there's a joy in professional competence of any type. You know, if you're working, if you're like, if you're, if you're running like the cash, cashier at a grocery store, right? When you get really good at bagging, like it's this, the, the, the kind of ecstasy of competence, right? Where you can kind of lose yourself in a task, you know, and be like, I'm as good at this thing as I can be. Even if you don't like the job, there's a satisfaction in that. And I think Rush was happy in this period doing, he wasn't rich, he wasn't influential, but he was doing a thing he loved well. And he was happy in this, in the, in this period in the early seventies. So his early material in Pittsburgh

• 39:02Robert Evans?

  is interesting to me because it's exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from him. One of his reoccurring bits was the Friar Shuck radio ministry of the air, where he relentlessly mocked the radio preachers that he saw coming into the station on Sundays. He thought these guys were grifters and he hated them. The center of this bit was that no matter your problem, God would solve it if you'd send the radio preacher a hundred dollars. That's interesting to me. And this is like a, a real like running theme in his early career is he made fun of preachers all the time, of the exact kind of religious grifters that later helped make him a wealthy man. It's very interesting to me. Yeah. There's also, he also would read letters

• 39:43Robert Evans?

  from fans. And at one point he let, read a letter that he said was from a, a, a young woman who wanted to be a DJ and was worried that her gender would hold her back. Here's what he told her on the air. This is interesting to me too. You just have to master two techniques and I'm going to explain them right now. Number one, the use of microphone. To use it, simply turn the microphone to the on position and talk into it. The second, which is the biggie, is queuing up the record. Get the record you want to play, take it out of the appropriate shuck, slap it onto the turntable, take the arm and the needle, place it on the outside edge of the record, then turn the record till you hear the beginning of the record. Back it up a quarter of a turn, and when you get through talking, the record will start. After you have mastered those two techniques, girls, change your sex.

• 40:26Robert Evans?

  And you can interpret that a couple of ways.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  I was already upset about the mansplaining about how to turn on a microphone and then he goes, "Oh wait, you can't do it."

• 40:34Robert Evans?

  Well, that, that, I think there's two ways to interpret this. One of them is what you've said, Sophie, that he was just being incredibly sexist. One of them is that he might, he might have been acknowledging, "Anyone could do this job, but you won't be able to as a woman because of sexism in the industry." And I'm really not sure which one he was going for there.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  I think it would be both.

• 40:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it could be both. It could be both.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  There is a kind of lording it over, like, "You know what? This is a dumb job, but you're still not allowed to do it."

• 40:59Robert Evans?

  You're still not allowed to do it, ladies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably, probably accurate. It's probably a bit of both.

• 41:05Speaker 04

  You know, Robert, you know what all ladies are allowed to do?

• 41:08Robert Evans?

  Products? Is it ads, Sophie? Is it participate in capitalism as consumers?

• 41:13Speaker 04

  Yes, it is participate in capitalism.

• 41:16Robert Evans?

  Well, ladies, stick it to Rush Limbaugh by engaging positively with the system he spent his life propping. All right, shit.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  You know, I didn't like the phrase "stick it to Rush Limbaugh" very much.

• 41:28Robert Evans?

  Neither did I, Sophie. Here's some ads.

• 41:34Speaker 02

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• 42:19Speaker 02

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• 42:41Robert Evans?

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• 43:04Speaker 06

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• 43:40Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit dovato.com or call 1-877-844-8872.

• 43:49Robert Evans?

  Ah, we're back. We're back from those ads. And Paul, I can see the glow on your face that only comes upon a man's face the first time that he gets to help advertise the fine products and services brought to us by the people at Raytheon. Are you feeling good, Paul, about now? Now you are inextricably tied to wonderful products like the R9X knife missile.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:11Robert Evans?

  I, yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  As a boy, growing up in Philadelphia.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  I I dreamed of advertising for missiles.

• 44:20Robert Evans?

  That's that's what everyone wants to do, right?

• 44:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:23Robert Evans?

  Since cavemen painted on walls, they dreamed of Raytheon. And now we are in the privileged position of getting to sell their products and I couldn't be happier.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Here's what sucks. Raytheon is such a cool name.

• 44:35Robert Evans?

  It is a great name.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  So good.

• 44:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, this in this ongoing bit I do, I often joke like the R nine X missile, I think is made by Lockheed. Raytheon's guidance chips, I believe, are it, to be fair. It's just the name Raytheon is such a good shady defense industry. Like, it's the name of a company that ends the world, right? Like, you're talking about like, like, you know, they're going to make a Skynet that kills us all at some point. Their name is just too on point to not be. Yeah. So back to back to Limbaugh. Rush was popular in Pittsburgh and his bosses appreciated everything but his long windedness. They repeatedly sent him memos that stated, shut up and play the records. And for a while, he was content to mostly just do that. But in 1974, the economy took a nosedive and Rush was fired.

• 45:23Robert Evans?

  He had to move back home with his family where he lived for seven miserable months. His dad repeatedly badgered him to move on and start a real career. But Rush was committed to radio and eventually he landed a new gig in Kansas City, where he started taking listener phone calls for the first time. This was the dawn of the era of insult comedy, a sort of mean spirited comedy based on pranks and, you know, primarily executed by shock jocks, guys embodied by Howard Stern, really, who entertained via ostentatious cruelty. Hungry for success.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Can I ask you this? I'm sorry.

• 45:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 45:55Speaker 03

  And I don't know if I don't know if you'll if you'll know or not. Like, talk ra- talk radio. How much of a thing is it at this point of people calling in to radio stations to have conversations with broadcasters?

• 46:09Robert Evans?

  It's starting at this point, right? This is really kind of the birth of talk radio and and Rush is on the ground floor of that, right?

• 46:16Speaker 03

  Does it? Does it start with sports or does it start with with issues?

• 46:20Robert Evans?

  I think it starts with issues. It starts with their before what we know as talk radio. You had had people who would take calls and talk about politics, both on TV and on the radio. And one of the things that Rush changes to skip ahead a little bit is that those guys had mostly been interchangeable, right? They were just sort of fielding calls and engaging with callers. Rush, and that kind of turns into with these shock jocks, more of kind of a comedy-based entertainment. You have these pranks, you have insults, you have all this stuff. So it kind of, it evolves out of a thing that had been going on for much longer.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  Right. It's an extension of the idea of the, the original idea of the DJ was maybe a personality, but his main thrust was, I'm giving you this music that you crave. And that's why you like me, is because I'm gonna maybe get, I'm gonna maybe get tracks before other people get them. And you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear this stuff first. But there's still a thing of, it's not about my personality necessarily. It's mainly about, I am the, I'm, I'm, I'm the Santa Claus of music. I'm giving you these things.

• 47:23Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  And that's why you like me.

• 47:25Robert Evans?

  Yes. And I have access to them first and all this stuff.

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 47:29Robert Evans?

  So Rush kind of, as this, you know, he kind of sees the writing on the wall, right? He loses his gig as a traditional DJ because that is starting to become less profitable, right? And there's, you know, in general, the economy's taking a shitter. So he realizes that kind of, the way things are going is more based around personalities and comedy and entertaining people. And he starts to pivot to that. So this is, there's a, well, an interesting quote that Rush himself wrote in one of his many interminable books about how he felt about kind of pivoting to insult comedy. Quote, "I found out something about myself, something that was quite disturbing. I found out I was really, really good at insulting people.

• 48:12Robert Evans?

  For example, the topic one day was, 'When you die, how do you want to go? I want to go the cheapest and most natural way I can,' one nice lady caller from Independence, Missouri, said. My response was, 'Easy, have your husband throw you in a trash bag and then in the Missouri River with the rest of the garbage.' When I went home after a day of this, I didn't like myself."

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Is that being, I don't know if that's being good at insulting people.

• 48:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah, that's not really insulting. That's just, that's just being cruel.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  Ready to insult people.

• 48:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. It is though, one of the things people will state, and I can't categorically say this, but it seems accurate based on my recollections of the show is even when people would disagree with Rush on the air, he wasn't an asshole to them. Like, he was not cruel to, to his callers, to their faces, right? He would say cruel things about liberals, but when people would call in, he would not like call them monsters. He would not like, he, he, he seems to have genuinely not liked insulting people to their faces, or at least over, like directly insulting people over, over the, the phone or whatever. Um, while he was disturbed by this, he was not disturbed by racism. Mainly racism against black people.

• 49:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's where we're going. Um, at one point during his call in show, he claimed he had a black caller and he came, claimed to not be able to understand the man's accent. Limbaugh hung up on this black man after saying, "Take that bone out of your nose and call me back."

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 49:40Robert Evans?

  Which is pretty damn racist.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Was this also disturbing, Tim?

• 49:45Robert Evans?

  I mean, he says it was. We'll, we'll get to that. At another point, he asked his audience, "Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?" Um, now, during a 1990 interview, after he'd kind of risen to political prominence, Newsweek asked Limbaugh if he thought these statements had been racist. He replied, "You may interpret it as that, but I know, honest to God, that's not how I intended it at all. Gee, don't get me on, in this one. I am the least racist host you'll ever find." Now, if we're going to try to analyze Rush from the length of his career, I think we can say two things. He's probably being honest when he said that he felt bad about insulting callers, because he did not continue to do that. He is probably being dishonest when

• 50:28Robert Evans?

  he says that he's not racist, because he continued to say incredibly fucking racist things about black people consistently throughout his entire career.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, the, the, I, the number one indication that someone is racist is when they say that they're least racist. Racist.

• 50:42Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Has that ever been said by? By a non racist person?

• 50:48Robert Evans?

  Usually when someone?

• 50:49Speaker 03

  It's always gotta be, it's always gotta be, not only am I not racist, I am the least racist person you're ever gonna meet. It's like, you don't, maybe don't go that far.

• 50:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  Because it's so, so easily disproved.

• 51:02Speaker 04

  Also followed by the, I don't see color people.

• 51:05Robert Evans?

  I don't see color. I would say, I think most of the people, I think I don't see color people tend to be performative Obama voters. The I am the least racist person in the world people tend to have strong opinions on why they should be able to say the N word.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 51:19Robert Evans?

  Like, that would be the split between the right and the left version of that.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 51:22Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  And both of you are fucking racist, so shut the fuck up.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  You mean me and Robert, right?

• 51:30Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 51:33Robert Evans?

  She's, she's found out about our opinions on Liechtenstein, which I refuse to apologize for. And the fucking Swedes, my God, the Swedes.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, you do, you do have issues with the Swedes.

• 51:44Robert Evans?

  I have huge issues, particularly blue Swede. Um, what did Oogachaka mean? Why did you say that at the start of that song? Okay. Sorry. Rush was,

• 51:55Robert Evans?

  Rush was still at this point in his career, completely apolitical. His roommate and close friend at the time later told an interviewer, he was scary smart about everything, but I can't recall us take, talking much about current events. He was funny though, I was an audience of one. Limbaugh's years in Kansas City were not super successful, and he seems to have recalled them somewhat sourly, as the New York Times summarized. Limbaugh likes to say, everything I did in Kansas City, I failed at. He got fired from the station and quit radio forever to become an executive with the Kansas City Royals baseball team. Five years later, he quit the Royals, convinced his career there was stymied and went back to radio, this time as a news commentator. Again, he got fired for being too controversial.

• 52:37Robert Evans?

  Also in Kansas City, he married twice, both marriages eventually ending in divorce.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  What are the, do we know what the sources of the, what the, what the type of controversies?

• 52:45Robert Evans?

  Yes, we're about to get into that.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay.

• 52:47Robert Evans?

  Yeah, we're about to get into that.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  Well, sorry.

• 52:50Robert Evans?

  Fucking Paul, come on. So it was in Kansas City where Rush Limbaugh, conservative commentator, made his first public appearance. After getting pushed out of the Royals, no one really liked him there. He had one friend who was on the team and that's why he got to keep the job. And when that guy got traded, they pushed him out because they all hated him. So after getting pushed out of the Royals, he got a gig at KMBZ, a local station. He started satirizing what he considered to be a left wing caricature of a right wing political commentator, right? The initial right wing Rush Limbaugh was satire. And he was being purposely controversial and unreasonably extreme in order to make a comedic point. This was a joke initially.

• 53:34Robert Evans?

  This did not go over well with his middle of the road Mormon station manager, but it made Limbaugh popular with his audience. See, Limbaugh had caught on to the fact that radio was in the middle of a revolution. This was the era where the first big shock jocks, men like Donna Imus and Howard Stern, began their ascents to stardom. I found a wonderful write up about this era on Longreads, which argues that the first radio shock jock was a talk radio star named Joel Pine in the 1950s. And I'm going to quote from this now, we might do an episode on Pine at some point. Quote, "His unconventional style, dressed up to dress down pinkos and women's libbers and riff on rather than read reports, was neither news nor entertainment. It seemed to be best described," well, the New York Times and Time both did anyway, "as an electronic peep show.

• 54:19Robert Evans?

  The personality free press of the time considered Walter Cronkite the most trusted man in America and Johnny Carson the funniest, but Pine, with a syndicated show on more than 200 radio outlets, was the most Machiavellian. When it comes to manipulating media, icons of talk author Donna Halper told Smithsonian Magazine, 'He was the father of them all.'" Pine briefly descended from his soapbox in the mid 60s for a week's vacation after bringing a gun to his show during the Watts riots, suggesting the world wasn't quite ready for his kind of conservative appeal. So Pine is doing the Rush Limbaugh bit in the 50s and early 60s, but America is not ready for that yet, right? Even 50s America is like, this guy's racist and like, and a fucking lunatic.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  So now, just so I understand, Rush's this satire that he was doing.

• 55:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  The idea was, here is what, uh, left-wing people think right-wing people are like.

• 55:20Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  The point he is trying to make is they see us as, they see, the left-wing sees the right-wing as, uh, extreme and, uh, hateful and, um, you know, racist and, and closed-minded. Like, is that, is that the point he was trying to make?

• 55:39Robert Evans?

  I, I think so, because he, he, he even says, like, it was a satire, right? Like, that's how it's portrayed in his biography, that he was kind of, his personality was satiric in nature. And, and that's kind of the only way I can interpret it, is that he was trying to satire what, like, kind of the loony right-winger, you know?

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Okay, but through the, through the lens of, here's how the left sees them?

• 56:02Robert Evans?

  I, that's, that was never said directly.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, it sounds like it's a, it's a, uh, uh, uh, protective phrase of like, I was not satireizing these guys directly. I was not satireizing right-wing people. I was satireizing how left-wing people see right-wing people.

• 56:20Robert Evans?

  That is how I have interpreted what I've read, yeah.

• 56:23Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah, that does sound like a base-covering kind of thing.

• 56:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it, a bit. I, I do think he started not believing everything he said. It started as a joke, and him intentionally to provoke controversy, because controversy brings in listeners and gets, gets attention, gets word of mouth. That's why he was doing it. And the story of Rush Limbaugh is these, these kind of purposely absurdly extreme satire becomes what he really believes and is, you know?

• 56:50Speaker 03

  Yes, so he's, he's an apolitical guy who's like, this is, this is what, this is what politics sounds like to me, I guess.

• 56:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I think so. And I, I, yeah, that, that's how I interpret it. We'll, we'll go, we'll go over that more. So, obviously, Pine, kind of the first right-wing radio shock jock, had peaked too early. It kind of, I guess, to steal a phrase from the Nazis, shown his power level too mu- Early during the Watts riots and he got kicked off the air. Rush, though, started getting political at exactly the perfect time. This was the early 1980s. Howard Stern came onto the scene in 84. Don Imus had risen to prominence in the 1970s. Imus was another guy my dad listened to a lot growing up. Um, Imus in the morning was like a big part of getting ready for school. Don Imus is going to be on the fucking TV.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  And you were like, this guy's having so much fun and I have to go to prison.

• 57:39Robert Evans?

  I have to go to prison. This guy's having fun. He's talking about nappy headed hoes, which was like the phrase that he, I forget what it was in reference to, but like, that's what got him in trouble.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  It was a women's basketball team.

• 57:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it was a women's basketball team. Cause Don Imus was also very racist.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 57:55Robert Evans?

  So, yeah. The world was still not quite ready for the Rush Limbaugh we knew. During, while he was like, starting to be political at KMBZ. But a diet version of what he would become was now acceptable. And one man who recognized the potential of Limbaugh's shtick was Norm Woodruff, a consultant to the station who became the acting program director at Sacramento's KFBK network. KFBK needed a new right wing talk radio host after firing their previous one. A guy you mentioned at the start of this episode named Morton Downey Jr. Morton was extremely popular and he was very extreme in his antics. This had allowed his local station in Sacramento to repeatedly draw national attention because he would say purposefully controversial things.

• 58:41Robert Evans?

  This did backfire on Morton eventually when he told a racist on air joke about a Chinaman, which was a thinly veiled attack on a local city councilman named Tom Chin. Downey Jr. Was fired and went into the world of television where he would somehow simultaneously blaze a trail for both Tucker Carlson and Jerry Springer. We will do an episode on him someday because he's a very awful windshield guy.

• 59:04Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 59:06Robert Evans?

  But his, for today, he matters because his firing, number one, his success proved that being a purposefully controversial right wing bigot was really profitable for a radio station. And because when he got fired, Sacramento had a hole in the station's roster that they needed to fill with another racist, right wing shithead. Just one who was not quite as racist as Morton Downey Jr. Rush Limbaugh stepped up and said, not being quite as racist as that guy is my middle name.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  For now.

• 59:38Robert Evans?

  For now. Eventually, I will be much worse.

• 59:43Robert Evans?

  So Rush Limbaugh moved to Sacramento. When he started at the station, his new boss, Woodruff, told him, "We want controversy, but don't make it up. If you actually think something, if you actually believe it, you can tell people why, we'll back you up. But if you're going to say stuff just to make people mad, if all you want to do is rabble rouse, if all you want to do is offend and get noticed, that's not what we're interested in, and we won't back you up." He was clearly lying. I think this was ass covering by the station, right?

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:00:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah. But they would never, would never, ever push back on his bigotry. But you know who does push back on bigotry? Paul.

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

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• 1:00:22Speaker 04

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• 1:00:23Robert Evans?

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• 1:01:43Robert Evans?

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• 1:02:35Robert Evans?

  Do ask your doctor about fewer medicines. Visit devoto.com or call 1-877-844-8872. So, we're back. And at this point, Rush Limbaugh has launched himself as a right-wing shock jock, and he is an instant hit. Ziv Chaffetz writes, quote, "The station let him go on the air solo, unencumbered by sidekicks or guests, and encouraged his highly personal right-wing monologues. For the first time in his career, he was marketed heavily and aggressively. There were billboards around town showing a finger hitting a button, captioned, 'How would you like to punch Rush Limbaugh?'" Rush was so pleased by these that he sent Brian a snapshot.

• 1:03:16Robert Evans?

  Morton Downey Jr. had been a big star in Sacramento, with a five-share of the market, 5% of people listening to the radio in a given 15-minute segment. Limbaugh tripled that. "He was sharp-edged but good-humored. The new morning host espouses many of the same beliefs of his predecessor, Morton Downey Jr., reported the Sacramento Bee, but he skates a little further from the edge of the hole in the ice." Rush was rewarded for his success with a six-figure salary, an estimable income in the mid-1980s, even by his father's standards. More important, for the first time in his life, he really mattered. He was invited to deliver speeches, just like Big Rush. He was an occasional commentator on television and wrote newspaper columns. Politicians and celebrities sought him out. He and Michelle, his wife at the time, bought a new house and furnished it with products

• 1:04:00Robert Evans?

  he endorsed on air. So, he's a hit. You know, this is the start of, and it's really just... Almost straight up from there for his, the rest of his career.

• 1:04:09Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:04:10Robert Evans?

  He finds his niche and he runs with it.

• 1:04:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:13Robert Evans?

  Again, he's, he's a very intelligent, talented man.

• 1:04:15Speaker 04

  Anybody else still find the Big Rush part really funny?

• 1:04:19Robert Evans?

  It is very funny. It's, it's, it's very funny.

• 1:04:21Speaker 04

  An hour in, it's still funny.

• 1:04:26Robert Evans?

  Now, I have long argued that Sacramento is the very mouth of hell itself. And the fact that Rush Limbaugh first saw success as a right wing firebrand there serves to support my hypothesis. Again, his conscious decision as an entertainer was to be a satirical version of a right wing polemicist, deliberately exaggerating the things he did believe for comedic effect. The audience thought he was funny, but I don't think they got the joke. And there is some evidence for this. When an Ohio evangelist.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  I would say there's a ton of evidence.

• 1:04:55Robert Evans?

  A lot of evidence. Yeah. So I think the, the earliest evidence for this, I should say, is when an Ohio evangelist very publicly claimed that the theme song from Mr. Ed held a satanic message when played backwards. You know, we're kind of talking about the satanic panic period during this. Rush found this ridiculous. And again, he had a long history of mocking the evangelical religious right. So when he heard this, he told his listeners that a Slim Whitman recording also contained a backwards message of, from Satan. Zev Chaffetz writes that, "To his delight, many Limbaugh listeners took Limbaugh at his word and flooded the station with phone calls, promising to destroy their Slim Whitman albums to keep the devil out of the house." Rush considered this a hilarious plank prank.

• 1:05:40Robert Evans?

  He did not apologize, or as far as I know, correct the record. So we see in this, he's joking, right? He is not, he, again, his whole history is mocking these people.

• 1:05:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:49Robert Evans?

  He does not believe this, but he doesn't correct people because it gets, he realizes, oh, they're engaged, they're destroying stuff. That means I have power, right? I think he even found it kind of, it might've been something that kind of addicted him to this, this idea that like, I can make, even if I'm deliberately being absurd and lying, I can make people take action based on those absurdities. That's gotta be addictive and I, I think it is for him.

• 1:06:12Speaker 03

  It is absolutely undeniable and, and especially like if you've spent time. On Twitter, and if you've ever been like I have on occasion deliberately stupid on Twitter and gotten sincere replies to something that is so obviously a joke, so obviously a joke. It absolutely is fun. There's no way around that. There's no way around that. Seeing people take you at your word when you say something that's so patently absurd is it's joyful. It does give you like a real jolt.

• 1:06:45Robert Evans?

  And there's a, this is a bit of a different case, but I think there's some similarities. So last summer, you know, I was covering a lot of the protests in Portland, Oregon, including doing a lot of live streaming and very early on, they, the police put a fence up around the police station. And there would be marches where like a couple of thousand people would march to the fence and somebody would like touch the fence and the police would tear gas like six square blocks of traffic. And I started calling it the sacred fence and the joke, like the comment that I was making is that the police are endangering the lives of thousands of citizens to protect a fence. Because it's sacred to them, right? That went viral within the city and there were dozens of protests at the sacred fence, as everyone called it, including numerous attempts to tear it down.

• 1:07:30Robert Evans?

  And I know that the way that I framed it had a significant impact on a lot of people getting hurt, damaging a fence, getting arrested. And it, it, it was both kind of intoxicating and it also scared the hell out of me. It was one of the reasons why I pulled back to some extent on some aspects of my coverage. Cause I got really worried about the kind of impact that you can have on people by doing that sort of thing. I didn't want to be, it was very concerning to me, but it was also, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't an element of it that I wanted to do more stuff like that. And I didn't, but I wanted to, you know?

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  And that's, that is the key, the key difference of, uh, you know, you seeing something that catches, catches fire in a, forgive the phrasing, but catch fire in a, in a charged situation. Um, and how easily people can glom onto something when everything's so churned up. And then realizing like, oh, words have power. I have to be careful rather than words have power. Here we go.

• 1:08:33Robert Evans?

  Here we go. Let's use it to sell gold.

• 1:08:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:41Robert Evans?

  So Russia's domestic life, while he's enduring all this professional success, his domestic life, life with his, I think she was his second, I think she was his third wife, actually. I don't know. He had a couple, he had a lot of wives. I think actually, no, this was his second wife. His domestic wife life with his second life at this period was less than joyful. He was famous and popular, constantly feted for dinners and invited to big events. And his wife, Michelle, was much less successful. She quit her job to be his assistant, but she hated the work.

• 1:09:10Speaker 04

  Oh, God, that sounds horrible.

• 1:09:12Robert Evans?

  It's a nightmare.

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  That's grim.

• 1:09:14Speaker 04

  That gives me the geeby geebies.

• 1:09:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they were not a good fit. Michelle loved the outdoors. Rush Limbaugh despised them. Two of his colleagues tell a story from around this time of how they convinced him to go rafting once, that I think is telling about Rush Limbaugh's personality. So, this is one of Russia's friends talking about, at the time they took Rush Limbaugh on a rafting trip in whatever river it is that goes through Sacramento. Quote, "It's a very, very mild ride. Bob gave Rush an oar and told him to abs-" Oh, you're gonna really love this.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  I love the opening thing. Look, you have to know, before I start the story, you have to know.

• 1:09:52Robert Evans?

  We're on a baby river. Yeah. "Bob gave Rush an oar and told him to absorb the blow of the canyon wall to give us a little spring back into the current. Rush panicked, stuck the oar out, his arm stiff as a board, and upon impact, he fell overboard. We got Rush back in the raft, and the next day, he spent the entire three hours of his show talking about his horrendous whitewater grapple with the grim reaper." What a fucking baby. I've had people fucking shoot at me, and I've had people shell me with artillery, and I've never spent three hours talking about it. What a fucking baby.

• 1:10:34Robert Evans?

  So Sacramento is where Limbaugh started picking up what would become a voluminous list of mostly self-inflicted nicknames. He was El Rushbo, the all-knowing, all-caring, all-sensing Maharishi. He was also a harmless little fuzzball and the epitome of morality and virtue. He started claiming that his show was hosted by the EIB, or Excellence in Broadcasting Network, which did not exist. This joke mainly served as a vehicle for Rush to express his grandiosity. He declared himself on the cutting edge of societal evolution, swore that he was serving humanity, and had himself introduced as having talent on loan

• 1:11:14Robert Evans?

  from God. His opinions were, quote, "documented to be almost always right, 97.9% of the time, by the Sullivan Group," which also did not exist. And again, he's joking and also, at a certain point, he starts meaning all of this very literally.

• 1:11:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:11:31Robert Evans?

  Right? Like, that's kinda how narcissists work. So, it may surprise people to know that Rush, to hear that Rush Limbaugh's career was launched into the stratosphere in Sacramento. Because California is, to most people outside of California at least, a bastion of liberal politics. Now, if you actually live and spend time in the state, you know, like, for example, if you've ever been to fucking, uh, I don't know, what is that, uh, Orange County, right? Or if you've been up near Reading, there's a shitload, like, there are more right-wing Californians than there are right-wingers than there are in, like, a number of US states, right? Like, California has a ton of right-wingers, and it has a long, powerful conservative political tradition. California gave us Ronald Reagan, it gave us Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger,

• 1:12:15Robert Evans?

  who, in one of the most surreal turns in political history, is now among the only rational voices on the right in the United States.

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Robert Evans?

  So, yeah, California has a powerful right-wing, and, yes, they are, especially in the last 20-something years, overwhelmed by the much more numerous liberals and leftists. But in this fact is one of the hints to Rush Limbaugh's rise. You see Sacramento is located Kind of north of the center of California, not far from some of the most productive farmland in the country. It is also not far from north central California, places like Redding, which are right wing strongholds. The conservatives who live in these areas tend to be very extreme in their beliefs, and that's partly a response to the liberal and left wing like government that they live under. They see, and this is not, they are not entirely or even largely wrong in seeing this, they

• 1:13:07Robert Evans?

  see themselves oppressed by many of the rules liberals in the cities put in terms of things like gas taxes, right? If you're living in, if you're a farmer, you know, in central or northern California, a gas tax that is reasonable for people in LA, San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento, is a hardship on you, and you're not contributing to the kind of pollution in the cities that the gas taxes are meant to fight. You know, the strict gun laws and stuff. There's a lot of things, reasons these people have to be angry, and Rush Limbaugh became their voice. Um, so these, these, this kind of infuriated, very radical right wing who hates the liberals and left that govern California have a voice in Rush Limbaugh.

• 1:13:50Robert Evans?

  He obliges their sensibilities with a ceaseless stream of attacks on liberal California, and that's what makes him huge, is because there's millions of right wingers in California, and Rush Limbaugh becomes like, yeah, he's their voice, you know? Um, it, it, you could, you might even be able to argue that nowhere but California could have produced Rush Limbaugh as he became. Uh, yeah. So I'm going to quote from the book Rush Limbaugh, An Army of One here. He mocked the multicultural style of California by proposing to keep ugglo Americans off the streets. Militant feminists became feminazis. The green movement was full of environmental wackos. The American left became commie pinko liberals, and the residents of Rio Linda, California were synonymous with stupidity.

• 1:14:34Robert Evans?

  A ringing deadalut, deadalut, deadalut introduced news updates on what he regarded as the absurdities of liberal activism. Liberals, of course, hated him, which he found inspiring. When they attacked him as a dimwit, he responded by claiming that he was so much smarter than his critics that he could vanquish them with half my brain tied behind my back just to make it fair. Before long, Rush was too big to stay in Sacramento, which is again the very mouth of hell itself. He was introduced to Ed McLaughlin, the former head of ABC Radio, who had started his own big radio company based out of New York City. McLaughlin had listened to Rush's show and decided it had the To go national, he offered Russia partnership and after some haggling Russia agreed. He moved to New York and made the EIB network a reality.

• 1:15:19Robert Evans?

  Rush was 37 years old at this point and 21 years into a career of doing almost nothing but broadcasting on the radio. Again, the voice of the so-called populist American right never did anything but radio, really. Um, in 1988, he launched a new version of the Rush Limbaugh show, this time for an audience across the nation. It's sort of hard to find his stuff from the late 1980s, but I found this guest appearance he did not long after in 1991 on another colleague's show for the same network. It gives you an idea of where his radio personality was by this point and of how he presented himself, right? Of how he kind of introduced himself anytime he was coming on the air. So that's, that's, we're going to play this now.

• 1:16:01Robert Evans?

  This is kind of the birth of the Rush Limbaugh we all know, uh, we all know now. One of radio's great broadcasters and he's with us today on the studio. We invited him Rush Limbaugh this morning.

• 1:16:11Speaker 05

  Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, thrill. It's about time, you know, I smoked a little dope to get ready for this in here and I'm ready to go, man.

• 1:16:19Robert Evans?

  You tie one, you tie one brain behind your back?

• 1:16:22Speaker 05

  No, half my brain tied behind my back just to make it fair.

• 1:16:25Robert Evans?

  Well, I'll tell you one thing.

• 1:16:26Speaker 05

  As I use my talent on loan from God.

• 1:16:29Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. I heard you got a little loan from ABC Cats when you renegotiated your new contract.

• 1:16:34Speaker 05

  No, I loaned them some money and I brought you a gift. Los Angeles Times.

• 1:16:38Robert Evans?

  Oh, great. Have a good one. Favorite thing. Well, I wowed him there, didn't I? It's nice to have a big article on how you flopped in the New York Times. Six minutes before nine o'clock. You started out with just as like a small group of stations on your show.

• 1:16:53Speaker 05

  Started out with 56, an hour of 337 with a weekly audience of about six and a half million and average quarter hour cumulative of a million seven. Most listened to radio talk show in America. And that means the universe.

• 1:17:05Robert Evans?

  That's, that's Rush Limbaugh at kind of when he, he goes viral for the first time. What do you think about that? About that, how he presents himself on here? What does that say to you?

• 1:17:15Speaker 03

  It's so, um, it's so the, the fully formed version of him that, that I first experienced. And like, he's really going for it. Like he's really, he's really, uh, like, he's so aggressive in it and, and like saying, I'm going to come like, clearly the, the intention is. I'm gonna come on your show and I'm gonna take it over and I'm gonna, I'm gonna be the, the, the, the, I'm gonna be the alpha here. I'm gonna dominate you with this. The LA, the present, presentation of the LA Times is because why that guy got fired from the LA Times?

• 1:17:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I mean, no, I think he'd been in Los Angeles and they savaged him in a review.

• 1:17:58Speaker 03

  Right, right, right. Okay. So it's, it's, um, you know, it's that frankly, it's like, it's all the shit that I hate.

• 1:18:07Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, it is. It is.

• 1:18:08Speaker 03

  It's, it's so, it's aggressive. It's mean. It's, um, you know, it's, he's also correcting him on one of his, you know, uh, eight catchphrases, you know, like you have to get it right. I say it like this every time. This is the way it goes. Um, you know, it's just, uh, it's a drag. It's a drag.

• 1:18:28Robert Evans?

  It's, it's a drag. It's also, I think there's a thing that he's doing here. When we talk about all these phrases, half my brain tied behind my back, uh, you know, the, uh, God, all these different phrases that were, that he continuously used for decades. I, I don't wanna, I don't know. I hope this doesn't seem a little pompous, but I kind of make a comparison between that and like the Iliad and the Odyssey, right? This like the way that anytime you've got Homer introducing, it's always like, you know, the, there, there's certain phrases. Anytime Achilles comes up, he uses the same kind of phrases, same couple of phrases to introduce him, these descriptive phrases, um, to introduce a character that are repeated constantly throughout the, because it's a, because it was a spoken story, right? Like that's who you're supposed to deliver

• 1:19:10Robert Evans?

  it. That works. It gets in people's heads. They associate those phrases with those characters. Rush is kind of doing, this is an old tactic, but it works. Um, it's the same thing Trump does with his impulse insults, crooked Hillary, right? Sleepy Joe. Um, these are effective tactics and that's what Rush is doing to, to inculcate his followers primarily with this idea that he is a genius, right? And it again, he's joking, but he's also not because this shit buries itself in your brain. Um, he's, he's, he's knows what he's doing. It's, he's a very savvy person.

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like when you, when you, people like that, that, that understand the, the importance of Branding over having an actual thing to say like it honestly it the the what you what the content is secondary to the presentation of here's who I am I'm going to tell you through repetition this is my whole thing it's like there there you know comics that to me it always makes me think of comedians that majored in marketing in college yeah and then it's like okay but are they actually that funny or did they just are they able to really sell themselves so well you know that that the content is secondary to the image

• 1:20:23Robert Evans?

  you you have two kinds of people who really are able to build a following you know people who are able to build a following because folks genuinely just enjoy that the work that they're bringing into the world they like their personality they like what they're doing and then you have folks who are able to build a following primarily because they do cult leadership right yeah that's the that's what the marketing comedians right that's what this is cult leadership this is how you do it yeah um we do a little bit of that here um but we're all guilty a little bit we're all guilty a little bit and I'll be guiltier when I get I don't know a couple of hundred people killed by the FDA in my mountain top compound which I you know is always the goal Paul you're very welcome if you would like to have an armed standoff with the

• 1:21:00Speaker 03

  It's how you know you're successful

• 1:21:01Robert Evans?

  That's how you know you're successful when a three-letter agency burns you down by anyway I don't need to Waco this time um

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  I want I'm going for the EPA I want the EPA to get the standoff with me

• 1:21:13Robert Evans?

  That's a good one yeah

• 1:21:14Speaker 04

  Wow I'm so impressed it took almost an hour twenty for Robert to mention Waco good job

• 1:21:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah I'm getting you know I realized I was Wacoing a lot um trying to cut back you know

• 1:21:27Speaker 04

  A whole hour twenty and then here he is first Waco

• 1:21:31Robert Evans?

  But we'll we'll talk off air Paul about synergizing our Colts in the near future anyway so Rush did not tone himself down at all after he went mainstream in fact he grew more extreme and he seems to have quickly Forgotten that he was ever practicing satire. In 1990, at the very height of the AIDS crisis, Rush launched a new segment on his show, The AIDS Update. And I find it interesting how different sources report on this.

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:58Robert Evans?

  When Limbaugh died, it was obviously a big story, the fact that he'd done this AIDS update. And it was, in fact, Limbaugh AIDS update was like the second or third most Googled term alongside his name the day he died. Snopes and Newsweek both published prominent fact checks on this story. But Ziv Chaffetz's biography of Limbaugh came out well before Rush's death and before the AIDS updates were really talked about all that much outside of, you know, the community they most impacted. And not, I think it's interesting how Ziv wrote about it, not knowing that this was one going, one day going to become a significant story. So this is how Ziv wrote about the AIDS update. After an act up demonstration at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City that disrupted a mass, Limbaugh chastised militant homosexuals for their disrespectful behavior and shortly thereafter began broadcasting irreverent and tasteless

• 1:22:43Robert Evans?

  AIDS update segments produced, introduced by Dionne Warwick's "I'll Never Love This Way Again." In his traveling stage show, The Excellence in Broadcasting Tour, he did a bit when he put a condom over the microphone to illustrate safe speech. So that's how the AIDS update was kind of framed by Ziv before it was a big story. Now here's how Snopes characterized it in their fact check after Limbaugh died. And I think

• 1:23:05Speaker 03

  And before that, but like already, that doesn't sound good.

• 1:23:09Robert Evans?

  That, no, I don't think Ziv is trying to whitewash it. I think that he just doesn't see it as a big story.

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, even just plainly stated, that is terrible.

• 1:23:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah. And it sounds worse when Snopes goes into more detail on this.

• 1:23:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:23Robert Evans?

  Quote, "At the height of the HIV AIDS crisis, the Rush Limbaugh show featured an AIDS update in which Limbaugh joked about an epidemic that had claimed more than 100,000 lives between 1981 and 1990. Specifically, Limbaugh targeted gay men who had died. In addition to joking about their deaths, Limbaugh reportedly played songs during the segment, including Kiss Him Goodbye, I'll Never Love This Way Again, and Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places." Snopes.com uncovered an interview in the Cedar Gazette from 1990 in which Limbaugh said the segment was politically oriented and based upon my reaction to what I consider to be extremism in the political mainstream. By a group of people. Per the Cedar Gazette, Limbaugh said his target is not AIDS victims, but militant homosexuals who blame church and government officials for the epidemic.

• 1:24:06Robert Evans?

  The AIDS update is meant to offend them, Limbaugh said. Damn right. According to a 1998 Los Angeles Times article, it was a popular segment, but it also created outrage among AIDS activists, something not helped by Limbaugh reportedly saying gays deserved their fate. Mocking the horrific deaths of gay people isn't something that will get a conservative radio host fired today. So obviously, this was never more than a mild bump in Limbaugh's career back in 1990. And it says a lot about where the right would go, that a segment dedicated to mocking joyfully the deaths of people he disagreed with was popular, right? That would become the mainstream for Republicans. Now, in 1990, it was still a thing he had to apologize for.

• 1:24:48Robert Evans?

  And that year is the year he became officially famous, 1990. He had his first live TV appearance on June 2nd, when C-SPAN did a special on talk radio. And yeah, so this is like, he does kind of have to sort of say that he regretted doing this, that he felt like he was kind of attacking people who, like, he was like, I didn't mean to be mocking people who had died. I was trying to attack these militant activists. And so I stopped doing it.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Who are so far still alive.

• 1:25:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, who are so far still alive.

• 1:25:18Speaker 03

  For the moment.

• 1:25:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Anyway, that, so, he does a TV appearance on C-SPAN in 1990 on June 2nd, which is kind of his first big TV appearance. And then the New York Times does a big profile on him. From that, quote, "With its characteristic attention to production values, the network simply set up a camera inside a spare WABC 77 studio in New York and let the self-proclaimed most dangerous man in America roll. Cut to a schlub in a cheap white dress shirt, black tie, and hastily barber-shopped helmet of hair, already wiping sweat and grumbling about the TV lights planted behind his desk and mic, interrupting the station's young newscaster Kathleen Mahoney. She's trying to do her five-minute top-of-the-hour update, oddly for 1990, while wearing a mask, because, as she explains, the host had warned her it could be dangerous to let

• 1:26:03Robert Evans?

  his listeners identify her on TV as a liberal feminist. He was only joking, Limbaugh insists. You said, "Wear a bag over my head," Maloney says. Limbaugh keeps threatening to yank her mask off, complimenting her beauty, and interjecting impatiently, "The news just holds up everything here. I'm trying to make the news worthwhile." There's a lot in there.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  The fuck, Jesus Christ.

• 1:26:24Robert Evans?

  That's a New York Times report on a C-SPAN appearance. Yeah, he's like both saying you should cover your face because my listeners will harass you for being a liberal feminist and also take off that mask, let everyone see your pretty face. Like, he's simultaneously both threatening her and sexually harassing her.

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  It's wild that that-

• 1:26:43Robert Evans?

  It's good.

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  It seems, there's something about that that seems so modern. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:26:49Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:52Robert Evans?

  He's, because he brought, created the modern, right? You know? So you can see it, you know, in 1990, that's what he's doing. Yeah. Now, 1990 is, as I said, also when the Gray Lady published their first full feature dedicated to El Rushbo. The article is fascinating and valuable, since it seems like few copies of his early 1988 to 91, 92 episodes exist. So this New York Times write-up provides us with several fascinating insights into how Rush's show evolved during this period, and more to the point, into where American conservatism was about to follow in his wake. At one point, a critic calls in, this is again, the New York Times are writing about his show, from an episode we don't have anymore.

• 1:27:33Robert Evans?

  So at one point in the show, a critic calls in and tells Rush, quote, "I believe you are doing a great disservice by using the program to convince people that if poor people are not successful, it is their fault. You were just a paid advocate of the rich and you despise the poor." Now, that's very accurate. The author of the New York Times article notes that perhaps due to his guilt over his cruder shock jock days, Rush is very polite to his liberal callers. And this is what the New York Times writes as Rush's answer. "You misunderstand my point. There is nothing wrong with being rich. It's not evil. Most rich people earned it by virtue of hard work. This has always been the country that people come to because there has always been a chance for opportunity. And if you start punishing the people who- Their tale to be prosperous, then you're going to unmotivate people to try that.

• 1:28:17Robert Evans?

  I am not a paid defender of the rich. I am a proud promoter of the American way of life. Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 03

  What are the?

• 1:28:26Speaker 03

  I guess that's a thing you can just say that most rich people earned their money like.

• 1:28:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's it's it's objectively untrue. But yes, you can say that.

• 1:28:35Speaker 03

  Objectively untrue. But I guess if you if you are born to wealth, but then you also get a job that makes you even wealthier. It's like, that's hard work.

• 1:28:44Robert Evans?

  I mean, look at Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates, all guys who were born to wealth. They weren't born crazy rich. They weren't born with fuck you money, but they were born into wealth. And then they were able to get fuck you money because of the key. And there's a lot written about that, you know, Bill Gates having access to a computer in an era when basically no one did. Uh, Bezos being able to secure a huge loan from his parents in order to help start his first business. Elon Musk also getting a loan from his dad to start a business, you know? It's the way it always works for these people and they they spin that as self-made, you know?

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, because in their mind, it's true.

• 1:29:20Robert Evans?

  Because in their mind, it's true. And they do work hard. And if you work hard, you can convince yourself that you've earned it as opposed to like, I worked hard, but it only like, I can say, I worked hard. I can also say, I am only financially successful. Because I got lucky and I know other people who worked as hard as I did, who have not been nearly as financially successful. And it's not because of a lack of talent. It's because I got a break that they didn't, you know?

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  And leaving leaving that leaving that part out is how you were able to convince other people that

• 1:29:50Speaker 03

  that the majority of people who are the majority of people are wealthy did through hard work.

• 1:29:56Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's nonsense. So that New York Times piece reveals that by 1990, Rush was already popular enough to draw massive in-person crowds. And this was unheard of for a talk radio personality. Today, we're well acquainted with right wing thought leaders who can draw thousands upon thousands of fanatically loyal followers to in-person gatherings. But Rush was really the first from the Times quote, there are towns where he is unheard unheard and unheard of. And then there are places like Tampa where the announcement of a Rush Limbaugh stage show sold out the. 2200 seat Ruth Eckert Hall in four days. The occupants of those seats are out of them and cheering when Limbaugh appears in a three-piece tuxedo. "They're like the crowd for a country western concert," says Dan Wooley, the Hall's Director

• 1:30:39Robert Evans?

  of Operations, after sizing up the crowd in the lobby. "Surprisingly youthful and more beer than wine drinkers. You're gonna have fun tonight," Limbaugh tells them, "and at the same time, you're gonna learn some things." Pacing constantly, he does some jokes that poke fun at the Japanese and the liberal media. One of his jokes is that Judgment Day comes and the Washington Post article banner reads, "World Ends Tomorrow: Women, Minorities' Hardest Hit." It's like, that's the, you know, you see what he's going for there.

• 1:31:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. I see what he's going for, sure.

• 1:31:10Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Later in his live show, Rush engaged in a popular bit wherein he brings a piece of shit to a modern art gallery. And the joke is that, like, modern art is so dumb that if you, like, poop and take, like, right, it's very obvious. This is it. You can find Ben Shapiro making the same basic joke decades later. And the gist of it is that, gist of it is that, you know, liberals are so dumb, they'll stare at shit if you tell them it's art. The Times introduces this bit and then moves on to something that I found chillingly relevant. Quote, "Art criticism is a Limbaugh staple. He believes there is a culture war going on between those upholding decent values, conservatives, and the commie-lib hordes trying to devalue human life and, worst, undermine private enterprise.

• 1:31:51Robert Evans?

  Limbaugh's sermon on art brings out the evening's only heckling, a female cry of 'censorship.' 'Oh no,' Limbaugh protests. He never spoke that word, but seconds later, he allows that censorship isn't really so bad. It has been used throughout this nation's history as a means of maintaining standards."

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  (laughing) As a means of maintaining standards?

• 1:32:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:20Speaker 03

  What the fuck is he talking about?

• 1:32:22Robert Evans?

  What he's talking about is threading the needle that the right is now the sin, like, right the mate. I went, I was in fucking, I took a concealed handgun course in Texas because I'm getting my out-of-state permit so I can be armed in more parts of the United States because of all of the Rush Limbaugh.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  That is like going to cooking school in Paris.

• 1:32:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Well, and, and the thing started with, like, a 30-minute lecture from the instructor on cancel culture. Like, this is the big thing within the right.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  Oh my god!

• 1:32:50Robert Evans?

  I know, I know, I know!

• 1:32:52Robert Evans?

  This is the big thing within the right now and it Limbaugh is starting both like saying like, well, the liberals want to like censor us, want to want to cut out all ideas they disagree with. And then he he moves on to saying, but also it's okay to censor people sometimes, right? Because this is what the right believes. It's cancel culture if you if people don't like it and if they suffer financial consequences for being racist. But it's not cancel culture if they go out of their way to censor left wing and liberal voices, which they do through things like school books, right? Objectively true, well documented. This is how the right works. Absolutely. I know no one listening is going to disagree, but it's frustrating.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  But it is. It is absurd. The idea of, of, you know, like, it's it's cancel culture if you if you compare being conservative to being a Jew in 19 late 1930s Berlin to like, it should be illegal to give the finger to the flag.

• 1:33:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:33:53Robert Evans?

  It's amazing. And that, Paul, is the end of part one of what is going to be like three hours of talking about Rush Limbaugh.

• 1:34:00Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:34:01Speaker 04

  Way more time than he deserves, but somebody had to do it.

• 1:34:05Robert Evans?

  I mean, he deserves this much time, not in a good way, but in a we need to understand what this man has done to us all.

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And it's also if you're if you're willing to go to bat for Rush Limbaugh, because you think it's mean that somebody is glad that he's dead. Let's lay it all out. And here's here's why some people might might not be so sad that a human life has been lost.

• 1:34:28Speaker 04

  Three hours of evidence.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Evidence both that he deserves to have his death cheered and also that he loved laughing at people's deaths.

• 1:34:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. You're honoring him in a way. Yeah.

• 1:34:40Robert Evans?

  You are. You are. It's what he would have wanted. But you know what I want right now, Paul? I want you to plug your pluggables.

• 1:34:46Speaker 03

  Well, let's see. You can find me on social media at PF Tompkins on Twitter and Instagram. I have a bunch of podcasts going on at any given time. Freedom, which I co host with Lauren Lapkus and Scott Ackerman and Stay Up Homkens, which I co host with my wife. We started a podcast during the pandemic and unfortunately, we are still doing it.

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  And I do, I do shows, the first live streaming improv shows, the first Monday of every month with my friend Lauren Lapkus. And that, all those tickets can be found at paulftompkins.com/live.

• 1:35:27Speaker 04

  Awesome.

• 1:35:28Robert Evans?

  Well, speaking of cancel culture, this episode is now over and thus canceled because of the libs.

• 1:35:36Speaker 04

  It's done. Bye.

• 1:35:37Robert Evans?

  Bye.

• 1:35:41Speaker 04

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedi.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com/behindthebastards.

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