Russell T Davies: The Private Battles I Fought While Creating My Biggest Shows

How do you find love again after losing the person you wanted to spend the rest of your life with? In this deeply moving episode of Begin Again, legendary British television writer Russell T Davies joins Davina McCall to reflect on his extraordinary life creating some of Britain’s most groundbreaking television, from Doctor Who and Queer as Folk to It’s a Sin and Years and Years. Russell opens up about growing up gay in Swansea, how he found belonging through youth theatre, and how friendship, identity and the AIDS crisis shaped his writing. We also hear the story of his 20-year relationship with his late husband Andrew and his eight-year battle with brain cancer. This is a beautiful conversation about grief, continuing bonds with those we’ve lost, and unexpectedly finding love again without leaving the love that came before behind. 🌟Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm We'd love you to share your Get Busy Living stories with us at https://getbusyliving.beginagainshow.com/ Follow Russell T Davies here: https://www.instagram.com/russelltdavies63 The Queerest of Folk by Russell T Davies is out on 8th October, hardback, £25 https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/the-queerest-of-folk-a-life-in-television-russell-t-davies/a290496f474a1f8c (00:00) Intro (01:41) Russell And Davina's Friendship (03:35) When His Mother Was Sectioned (07:36) Russell's New Book 'The Queerest of Folk' (08:35) Being A Young Doctor Who Fan (11:00) On Realising He Was Gay (14:25) The Inspiration Behind 'It's a Sin' (17:31) A Letter For Russell (19:58) Monzo GBL Ad (21:35) On Making 'It's a Sin' (28:17) How 'Queer as Folk' Came To Be (35:59) Monzo 90 Days Ad (37:04) Making 'Tip Toe' with Alan Cumming and David Morrissey (44:01) A Letter From Kate Bush (45:57) On Making 'Years and Years' (48:30) Meeting His Husband (50:46) After His Husband's Cancer Diagnosis (59:16) His Husband's Death (01:04:42) On Finding Love Again (01:07:58) Writing Doctor Who (01:11:52) His Writing Process Download Monzo. Monzo Current Accounts are for 16+ and UK residents. Ts&Cs Apply. Integrated accounting with Pro and Team business plans start from £9 a month. Only for UK sole traders or limited company directors. Ts&Cs apply. Join the 'Say Yes Club' and hear more about our events here - https://events.beginagainshow.com/ Sync ID: MB01FISPPUMJOWC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:00Speaker 05

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• 1:16Speaker 04

  Guys, take a look at these numbers.

• 1:39Speaker 04

  Hey, what year is it? 2026? Oh, great. I've come from Planet Begin Again. I've got to interview Russell T Davies on this day at this time. Great, okay.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  Allez-y.

• 1:57Speaker 04

  Great.

• 2:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I was saying, yeah. So what about this boy? I think, review this.

• 2:08Speaker 04

  So I am like beside myself today. I know I am beside myself most days, but today I really, really am because I am talking to Russell T Davies. Doctor Who, mate, that is awesome. Thank you for being as excited as me. I'm very excited. Yes, he's changed the world.

• 2:24Speaker 06

  This way, this way.

• 2:26Speaker 04

  Yes. Oh my God. No, I can't handle it. I almost. I am.

• 2:35Speaker 04

  He called me when I was in hospital after my brain tumor operation. It was difficult for even good friends of mine to do that because nobody quite knew what to say, but he did. This man is a saint. You're a very special man.

• 2:58Speaker 04

  Hiya. Hi. I mean, Russell, I'm coming over. Okay, in for that. Just one more. Okay, lots of hugs. I've got a feeling the camera. But not the last. Looking straight up my jacksy, but I'm sorry about that. Viewing figures soaring, multiple hits. Multiple, multiple. I've said this a lot, and I know that I talked about this when we greeted, grot. Grot. That should grot outside. I've always loved you as a person and what you've stood for, and obviously you can see who you are from everything you write without even ever reading an interview about you, which is what I love about you. Thank you. And we've talked about this, and I don't need to cover it too much, but you did reach out to me when I wasn't well. Yes. And it meant the world to me.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  Well, thank you, yeah. And thank you. I think, I think, I mean, you've talked about this and you have said how, and I hate to sound like a saint because there's plenty of times in my life when I didn't. I look back at my life and I think, God, I had friends who died when I was young. Did I stay in touch with their parents? No, I didn't. And people who have awful, did I write that letter? No, I didn't. So it's something you learn over the years that if someone is in a terrible state or ill or needs something, get in touch and then get in touch again. Yes. That's the thing, I think. The big thing for me was when you called me after I'd had breast cancer and you said, I'm sending you a text because this is normally when people stop texting. Yes, yeah. And it was. Yes. You know, I was like, who knows that? You do.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I'd like to talk to you a bit about Andrew later, but. Absolutely, my lovely husband, bless him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I feel like everything that you've done is, in a sense, reparation. You were just talking about friends of mine died and I didn't reach out, but like It's a Sin was kind of a way of explaining how mad that time was, and I want to talk to you about that as well. But first, you coming from Wales, Swansea. Yep. And growing up in Wales with your mum, your dad, your two sisters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I quickly want, I read in your notes that your mum was sectioned on the day you were born. She was. So can you just talk me through that? Why? It was extraordinary. They gave her too much morphine.

• 5:12Speaker 04

  She was, I was her third cesarean, and in those days, you were sterilized after your third cesarean, no choice, that just happened. You could not have a fourth cesarean. So they did that and gave her too much morphine, but they wouldn't admit they gave her too much morphine. This is 1963, when no doctor's going to admit a mistake ever. So in her high, she went, I wonder what drugs were in my system? And in her high, she went off into a parallel universe. She was floating in space where these giant god-like faces appeared, and they said to her, we're sending you back to the world, to the earth, but if anyone ever speaks to you, you will be trapped in a world in which your firstborn daughter is dead. So she wakes up in bed and her nurse says to her, how are you, Mrs. Davis? And she attacks her.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  She attacks the nurse and pulls down curtains. I go, let me out of this world. I'm in the wrong world. I'm in the wrong world. It's this science fiction dream, isn't it? So she got sectioned. So my father arrives at the hospital. I'm sorry, he's been sectioned. And they said it's a nervous breakdown because of the cesarean, because of the sterilization. She can't cope. So there was I in my little cot, and there was she locked up on a high, on a massive, massive high. And bless my father, he's a very clever man, my father. He just said, she's not the sort of person to have a nervous breakdown. That's not what's happened. God, how lovely of him. And he went and researched the drugs. He found someone he taught who worked in pediatrics or something and said, look at these symptoms. What is this? And someone else said, oh, that looks like morphine.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  But in those days, in 1963, you did not get one doctor to prove another doctor wrong. So three days this took. Wow. And she was there, and eventually they kind of released her. They released her and said, all right, you're fine, go back. And this is the best bit. So I've been like lying in my little cot all alone, and so they release her from that ward, put her back onto the maternity ward, hand me over and say, here he is, it's a boy, congratulations, Mrs. Davis, but we should tell you, he's got a club foot.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  I have not got a club foot. I have not got a club foot, have I? No, I'm six foot six. I have not got a club foot. And for the next three years, I went to baby physio. Baby. Three years until they turned around and went, actually, he hasn't got a club foot. But I don't even look like I've got a club foot. There's nothing odd about my, forgive me, you've got foot people, but I'm not being rude, but. But you don't look like you. No, my foot is completely normal. And I, three, what a birth, what a birth. But also. I'm just dramatic. Now. That is the truth. It's just got to be a show, isn't it? Dramatic entrance. Exactly.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  I think the other interesting thing is how much we learn about how important that those first moments are with your mother. Well, amazing. And you missed three days. And she never told me that until I was 27 years old. That was then like, no, we don't keep secrets, particularly in our family, but it was horrible to her. I kind of make a big story out of it because I think it's actually quite exciting. It was, what a trauma to her. And it was when her mother died, my lovely grandmother Violet, and I came home and she got a bit drunk in the kitchen and told me that story. It was like, wow. I thought, how have you kept that quiet for all these years? Amazing, horrible trauma. Can you imagine? Wow. Talking there about your dad finding someone he'd taught that was a pediatrician. Yes. Your dad sounds pretty amazing. Yeah, bless it, big rugby man. Thing to do. Yeah, yes, very strong and very clever man.

• 8:33Speaker 04

  And like, I keep on saying, but in 1963, you did not turn around and doubt the hospital. You did not tell them they were wrong. You did not go against the advice you had been given. So that's extraordinary for him to do that then was really something. Bless him. And he must have really loved your mum. Oh, completely. To stand up for her. Completely. How many years were they married? 50 years? Amazing. Yeah. I quickly want to touch on, this is, this is just a, this is just a proof, isn't it? They wouldn't let me call it Vanity Project.

• 9:02Speaker 04

  Queerest. The queerest of folk, believe me. I was at Manchester Pride and I am not the queerest of folk. This book is a brilliant, it's a brilliant kind of, it's story.

• 9:14Speaker 06

  Isn't it from your life?

• 9:16Speaker 04

  Yes, and it's really about, it's all, most of it's about my job. It's about working in television.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 04

  And then you see the rest of my life through there, because that's how it happens, isn't it? You know, the rest of your life happens in conjunction with the television stuff. They're not separate.

• 9:28Speaker 06

  And it's kind of lessons and ideas and thoughts. It's quite thought provoking.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Is it?

• 9:34Speaker 06

  Yes, I think, I feel like it's, it helps a conversation start. You'd, you'd read this book.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 06

  And then each chapter or a couple of chapters, you'd go out for dinner and you'd go, so I've been reading Russell T Davies's book. And he's been talking about years and years, and it's very interesting because, you know what I mean?

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, good. That's what I wanted, yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 06

  I love this idea of you starting to draw comic strips.

• 9:55Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 9:55Speaker 06

  How old were you then?

• 9:57Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, but, but, as soon as I could pick up a pencil.

• 10:00Speaker 06

  Really?

• 10:00Speaker 04

  The one, and I used to copy, or I used to love Peanuts comic strip, Charlie Brown comic strips, who is.

• 10:05Speaker 06

  I mean, my favourite.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  The master, the absolute master of cartoon. Do you know he invented seeing grass at horizon level? You know, at the bottom of a panel, he'd draw a line of grass like that. He invented that. It's just, I just, I've got a signed print by Charles M. Schultz at home. It's my most valued possession.

• 10:19Speaker 06

  But what was the, what was the time when you realised, actually, I can write and I want to write? What age were you?

• 10:26Speaker 04

  I never thought you could, because I wasn't from a family that did, even though it was a family of teachers. There wasn't any television in my background. There was nothing there. So I had no structure. And, and I used to love Doctor Who, still love watching Doctor Who, so I knew the name of the writers. And I used to watch soap operas. So I was always tuned in to the names of the writers and it said storyline and story associate and things like that on crossroads.

• 10:48Speaker 06

  You were interested.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  I was interested. My, my mind was heading there, but I almost never thought it was even possible because you just couldn't see it. And again, this is the seventies now. Now, there's a million BTS programmes. You can see interviews of everyone. You could see the writers' rooms. We just didn't see behind the scenes stuff for that. There was one book written called The Making of Doctor Who, which broke down Doctor Who into scripts and script editors and producers and the director directs. And the actors learned the lines. It actually broke it down, explained the whole thing. It was a very influential book on a whole generation of Doctor Who fans. Because you actually saw how things were made. So I, that gave me an insight. And then, so I was about, it was just impossible.

• 11:29Speaker 04

  It was literally impossible. It was like the gods of Mount Olympus were the writers, just, you know, other people and.

• 11:35Speaker 06

  Other people. Yeah, someone else does that. Not me.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  They're too lofty by far. Although it's funny, I, I actually say this in the book, you can tell two stories about many versions of your life story. And in one version, I'm completely wide eyed and innocent and going, oh, I'll never do that. On the other hand, I went and bought an electric typewriter, an electric typewriter. Do you remember them? Where they do type and it would, yeah, yeah. You know, the first step towards a word processor. And I did start bashing out scripts on there. So I, it's, it's hard to realise how ambitious you were. And I would never call myself ambitious. And yet I obviously am. It's obviously burning away in me because I was typing away and starting to put things together. And yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 06

  I want to talk to you about school, actually, in particular, because I, I am so grateful to you for talking about how difficult it is when you don't fit the norm at school.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 12:31Speaker 06

  And how important that is for anybody that feels that they don't read about that somewhere or see some. And especially someone who's gone on to achieve such greatness, because sometimes you can feel so lonely.

• 12:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's funny because I think probably anyone who was in school may would say, what do you want about it? You had a great time. But actually.

• 12:50Speaker 06

  Not how you felt.

• 12:51Speaker 04

  Well, I know it was a massive school, two thousand three hundred pupils.

• 12:54Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 12:55Speaker 04

  Man, they were proud of those big numbers there. Big, comprehensive, big, in the seventies, they were the thing. And, um, huge. And actually, do you know what? I'm very tall. I think I survived that by being very, I wasn't really bullied. And I was lippy, I was cheeky, I was a bit gobby. I could, I could give it back a little bit. But really, I just kind of kept quiet. And of course, there's no way in a billion, billion years I would have mentioned being gay, as you're realising you're gay.

• 13:21Speaker 06

  When did you know?

• 13:22Speaker 04

  I suppose it just built up. Um, uh, I mean, I think I always knew in a way, the very first people I ever fancied were, were men. And there was never any other thought there.

• 13:33Speaker 06

  Were there any role models?

• 13:35Speaker 04

  Well, no, exactly. Well, weirdly, there was, very lucky. Not straight away. And I think what's interesting is that the moment you start to realise who you are, you simultaneously learn to keep it quiet. That's the most damaging thing in the world. And that's going now. Because I just got an email from a friend of mine, who I waved at in the, in the crowd at Pride yesterday. And he said, oh, I was there with my kids. And he said, I was there with my twelve year old. He came out two years ago. You went, what? When he was ten? Like, and I still find that amazing and new and, and, and I wanted to know all about it. It's amazing how happy the dad was talking about that. I mean, impossible by then. That didn't exist. The language didn't exist. The language barely existed if you were eighteen, twenty, twenty one. But I did the most marvellous, I was, so I was never, and also I should say, I was good at school.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  I was clever, so I could do it. So, and once, and that's, makes it all a lot easier.

• 14:24Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  So I could, I could kind of coast in a way through it. And, but what I did discover was a youth theatre, which was the most glorious thing of the West End, the youth theatre. In a youth theatre, I mean, again.

• 14:35Speaker 06

  How old were you when you joined?

• 14:36Speaker 04

  I was eleven when I joined it, very, very young. And again, not a, not a gay space. No one ever said the word gay. And yet it attracts gay people. And then, talk about role models. The role models I had there were, they were older boys who were about sixteen, seventeen. Campus hell. Campus Christmas, many of them went on to become drag queens. One of them was a drag queen called Pinky in Brighton for many, many years. And he became a very famous drag queen in Brighton. He died a few couple of years ago. He was so wonderful. And, um, that, that was my role model. They weren't in drag then. They were just camp and making camp Welsh jokes. Being completely free. Even then, they didn't say they were gay. But it was who they were. And just, so that was my role models. Really camp, funny seventeen year olds, being gay as gay.

• 15:21Speaker 04

  Except codedly gay, but nonetheless gay. And just, I love those boys to this day. I just think. So I was, so I was automatically kind of a head in a way, of, if you hadn't been in that youth theatre. I was in a gay space with other gay people. And even though we had a long way to go in terms of coming out, what a glorious place. And I love, and that's also, it's wound into my soul, that youth theatre. It's where I met my friend Jill Norder, who was the inspiration for It's a Sin.

• 15:48Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  And a lot of my friends there, still my friends.

• 15:50Speaker 06

  Jill.

• 15:50Speaker 04

  Yes, we loved Jill.

• 15:51Speaker 06

  What, what an amazing woman. Could you just tell, tell us who she was?

• 15:56Speaker 04

  Jill was my friend. She's a year older than me. So when, I think we met, uh, she was fifteen, I was fourteen. Got on instantly. She is friend to the gays. I mean, she knew I was gay before, before anyone did. And so when she went to become an actor, so she went, but she went to Central, but she went off to London ahead of us. So actually, when I went to Oxford, I'd spend a lot of weekends just going to London.

• 16:17Speaker 06

  To see her.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  To be with Jill. And they'd have parties and then they all moved into a flat. They called the Pink Palace, her and her pals, which became the It's a Sin Pink Palace. I ended up writing this many years later. And, and so she lived this lovely, funny life. But then, of course, we're talking about when I went to university, that's nineteen eighty one. So eighty two, you're talking about the arrival of the HIV virus in Great Britain. And, and as she was left, uh, drama college and became an actor, she went straight into the chorus of Les Mis and stuff like that. And that's where the illnesses were first seen. That's when boys started dropping out of the chorus. Michael Ball talks about this. He had friends who just vanished, or they'd be, they'd get a cold that would never leave and they'd go home and then they'd die. And, and in many ways, the West End were almost the first to notice what was going on.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Or they were the first to actually speak out about what was going on. And, and, and started to raise money and raise funds and started to protest and, and, and have bed pushes and things like that. When It's a Sin came out, a journalist friend of mine went and looked up his clippings. And he realised he'd been on a bed push with Jill Norder in nineteen ninety one, pushing a bed through Trafalgar Square. So she was one of the first to become an activist, but a very modest activist. That's why her name's not in the history books, really. She, she wasn't, she didn't found a society. She didn't make the speeches. She just turned up and pushed the beds and did the marathons and did the walks and shook a bucket and raised money. And it's so lovely now that she's got, she's got an OBE now, because she was finally recognised for doing what she's done on the frontline all those years.

• 17:47Speaker 06

  She was like a, a quiet Princess Diana.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:50Speaker 06

  E-stigmatising and showing people.

• 17:53Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, yes. And lost so many people. So, I mean, she was right in the, I lost people. Incomparable to what Jill, but that's why when I went to write It's a Sin, I went to her because she was in the middle of the inferno. I had my losses. I knew people. She was there, burning in the volcano of that, those terrible events. And, and knew and saw everything. So I mined her for a thousand stories and, you know, we'd talked to each other for years. And yet it took me that long to kind of think, God, she's, she's, she's the source. She's the well sprint of, of everything I want to write about. She's the mother load. And so we sat down, I said, we sat, we were, you know, for many lunches and I sat there saying, talk to me like you've never talked to me before. Tell me about Juan Pablo. Tell me about, tell me about Dursley. Tell me about this. Tell me about that.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  And all her stories came tumbling out. It just ended up becoming It's a Sin, bless her. So she was my mate way back then. Fourteen, fifteen years old, bless her.

• 18:46Speaker 06

  Thank you, Jill.

• 18:46Speaker 04

  You'd love her.

• 18:48Speaker 06

  Um, actually, I've got something for you.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  Money?

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Oh, what's that? Is that Jill's handwriting? What's that?

• 18:59Speaker 04

  What you're doing, Vina?

• 19:00Speaker 06

  Will you read it to us, please?

• 19:01Speaker 04

  What is this? I read this out?

• 19:03Speaker 06

  Yes, please.

• 19:04Speaker 04

  Ah, dear us, Russell. Well, is this Jill? It is?

• 19:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. I do this. Well, I know you're being interviewed, so I'm getting in on the action. Honestly, time races by. It does, doesn't it? I remember with great joy the time we actually became really good friends. The summer of the parties, which, if it were Gavin and Stacey, would be the fishing trip that no one mentions. We had a party that lasted for four weeks. Four weeks in Swansea. We went, we went from house to house to house. In the week two, I dyed my hair blonde. In week three, I, oh, my God. It, oh, my God. Oh, my God. What a laugh we had, and it's been a laugh and a joy ever since. Oh, darling. Now, darling, I'm also filled with huge admiration for you, not only for your fabulous writing and love of the camp. Oh, but your continual fight for what you believe in.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  Camp and fearless, my friend. How lucky I am. I love you. I love Jill.

• 19:57Speaker 06

  What a, what a woman.

• 19:58Speaker 04

  What a lovely thing for you to do.

• 20:00Speaker 06

  Of course.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. She's exceptional, isn't she? And now, I mean, her life is mad. She's like, um, um, she's been touring the world now with Les Miserables and Matt Lucas. She's still that wench in the background. She's still the washerwoman. She's never the lead. She's never Madame T'Nalier. She's always just in the corner. She loves it.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, she's in the thick of it, right? She's like, right.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  She can sing and, yeah, she's had the most wonderful, wonderful fam. She had the loveliest mum and dad as well, her lovely brother as well. Gorgeous people, yeah. Oh, I'll treasure that. Thank you. It's funny to.

• 20:28Speaker 06

  She was so happy to be asked and.

• 20:31Speaker 04

  Let's take your friend's life and turn it into a great drama. To the extent that there's a character called Jill in it, I couldn't change her name.

• 20:38Speaker 06

  No.

• 20:38Speaker 04

  I tried it. I think I tried a draft calling her Alison and I just went, it's Jill, it's Jill. I'm just.

• 20:43Speaker 06

  Did she love that?

• 20:45Speaker 04

  I think, yes, I, yes, she did. I think it was odd for her. And I think when I say the spotlight shone on her, she never wanted that spotlight. But nonetheless, all her friends are so delighted for her. And then we cast her in it as Jill's mother. So she's in it. And that was a nice thing to do. Then, then she.

• 21:00Speaker 06

  Oh, I've got to go back and watch it again.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's her. That's Jill. In she comes.

• 21:04Speaker 06

  Oh, God, how brilliant.

• 21:05Speaker 04

  Four, five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In she comes. So she's part of the team. She met Lydia West, who plays Jill.

• 21:10Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 21:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it was a nice thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she was part of the whole thing.

• 21:15Speaker 06

  Monzo sponsoring Begin Again to help us win back some time so we can do more of what we love. I wanted to know what that thing was for you. So let's have a look and see who we've got. Yvonne says she spent the last 20 years ticking things off her bucket list. And it's had such a positive impact on her life. What's next, Yvonne? I am 45 and I really feel like I'm just at a point now in my life where I'd love to just go off and do something that's just for me. I love the thought of doing or learning about breath work, maybe some chanting or Tai Chi. And really just learning about meditation in general. My God, Yvonne and I alike. We need to meet. I mean, you are so talking my language.

• 21:57Speaker 06

  I love this, Yvonne. Go do the retreat. It would be absolutely amazing. And I love meditating. It is so life changing. It doesn't even matter if it works out or it doesn't work out. You had a go and the feeling of having a go at something, you're going to feel really proud about yourself. And you're going to want to try something else. So let's do this. Let's say yes more. In fact, I'm going to make it happen right now. I'm calling it the Say Yes Club. We're going to take one thing we've always wanted to do and we are actually going to do it. So I'm going to put a link in the description for you to come and join us. Because that's exactly the thing that Monzo is here to help with. They put our money to work in the background, sorted, saved, sent where it needs to go.

• 22:42Speaker 06

  So our energy is free to say yes to more things in life. Monzo current accounts are for UK residents, age 16 plus. Ts and Cs apply.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop. Because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out. Knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Stonefire Knon is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  Stonefire Knon is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 23:33Speaker 07

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is, is that guy okay?

• 23:36Speaker 03

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 23:42Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire Knon with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 23:47Speaker 07

  Doesn't sound friendly.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.

• 23:52Speaker 06

  I mean, that, I think for anybody our age is an amazing drama and a reminder of what life.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  Of what we went through.

• 24:00Speaker 06

  Was like then. And it was such a brilliant portrayal of it. How, how hard was it? Because I remember that feeling of everybody going, what, what is this? What does it mean? Like, who's, who's safe? Is anybody safe? Like, what do we, what do we have to do? And the rumours and everything.

• 24:20Speaker 04

  Yes, the nonsense that was said. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 06

  And portraying, because obviously you can live with HIV now, but it is.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Very happily.

• 24:27Speaker 06

  Still around.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 24:29Speaker 06

  But so how hard was it to get that pitch right where you're not frightening people about having sex, but?

• 24:36Speaker 04

  Yes, that was hard. That was part, that was part, that was the balancing act of episode one. And no one wanted to make it. It got turned down by everyone.

• 24:43Speaker 06

  Yeah. So tell me about that.

• 24:44Speaker 04

  It was turned down by Channel Four. Channel Four did it in making it, but at one point someone on that channel was heard to say, if I hear one more word about that miserable age drama, it's like, which is weird. Because you look at episode one, it's not miserable.

• 24:56Speaker 06

  It's not at all.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  It's amazing what people bring to it.

• 24:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 04

  They bring, and also they bring, that was a person of a certain age who'd lived through that crisis. So maybe they are bringing horror and loss and funerals and sadness to it. So they read that into it. You literally sit there going, that first episode's joyous and funny and comic and anyway, never mind. And then the BBC had a marvellous meeting of the BBC where an executive walked in and you could tell it wasn't going well. Because they sat down and went,

• 25:23Speaker 04

  do you know Elton John? But, no, no, I don't. Why? Don't you think this would be better as a musical? And at that part, I thought, we're lost. We're out. We're out. Thank you. Goodbye. Like that. ITV turned it down. Very sadly, very nice at ITV. They said, we wish we were the kind of company that made this and we're not. And eventually we did that amazing thing of just waiting. You know this, if you wait for long enough in television, all the bosses change.

• 25:49Speaker 06

  Change, yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 04

  And it all.

• 25:51Speaker 06

  So is that how it happened?

• 25:52Speaker 04

  That's what happened. A lovely man at Channel Four called Lee Mason just took the script, put it in his drawer, locked it away and waited for all the bosses to change. And they did. And the new boss, Ian Katz, came into Channel Four. And like on day one, he went to Ian Katz's office, I've got a script for you. And Ian read it, bless him, and went, oh, we'll make this. Bang, like that.

• 26:11Speaker 06

  It is so Channel Four, really, actually. I think it was the perfect home for it.

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, oh. And it's the channel I made Queer as Folk on, so it just felt at home. No, I'm delighted. I am, I'm a bit sad the BBC didn't make it because I do also think it's the history of the nation. I think there is something, I love Channel Four, but there's something niche about Channel Four. Channel Four is designed for the voices that can't be heard elsewhere. Whereas I think, actually, this is history.

• 26:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 04

  This happened to Britain and you are the public broadcaster that we all pay for. So I wish they'd made it, yeah, but.

• 26:40Speaker 06

  And no one had told that story.

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Well, it's amazing because that, that, part of the problem with getting it commissioned was, I think everyone thought that story had been told. Because we'd had years of soap operas with someone popping up saying, I'm HIV positive. Every other episode of Casualty would have someone popping up saying, I'm HIV positive. And I said, you, you, and also it was on a lot of American things. And I would sit in these meetings and you haven't seen it. You actually haven't. And you could see people not believing me. Until it got on air, then, then people finally went, oh, yeah, yeah, that's new. It's a new story. So it was hard, that. I got a great producer called Nicola Schindler, who's made Queer as Folk with me and everything. She's Manchester based and she is amazing. She's just had the patience to wait. She's a great waitress. Just wait, just wait, just wait. We'll get there in the end.

• 27:23Speaker 06

  How did you end up in Manchester?

• 27:24Speaker 04

  I was simply on, I was, I got a job, my first ever job in telly at BBC Wales, which was kind of like £50 a day. The programme moved to Manchester. Why didn't you? It's called Why Didn't You Switch Off Your Telephone Set and Go Out and Do Something?

• 27:38Speaker 06

  Something else.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  Instead.

• 27:39Speaker 06

  Can I just say, I remember that so well.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Everyone watched that.

• 27:43Speaker 06

  Honestly.

• 27:44Speaker 04

  Yes, do you remember? That was a time as a kid. We had such a laugh on that show. And so it moved from Cardiff to Manchester and I had like two months to go on a contract. And they said, we can pay you off for two months. Or do you fancy going to Manchester? No expenses. That's the BBC. Just, but I was, so I was like 22 or something. And I was like, oh, that sounds like a laugh. My sister had lived in Bury for a bit, so I kind of knew it's slightly up north. And so I, on an adventure, 1987 was the weirdest year. I got off, I got offered every job in town. It's like, I got offered a job as a cartoonist on a brand new newspaper, which turned out to be the Sunday Sport. Do you remember the Sunday Sport? Dave Sullivan. So I was like, and I realised I was working for a pornographer. So at the age of 23 or whatever, I went, no, no, no, thank you. No, no, no.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  I got offered a job as a presenter on Play School. I got a job as a presenter on Play School.

• 28:31Speaker 06

  I've just got to say, I think you'd be amazing.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  I think I'm still in it. That's what I'm doing. And honestly, I admire, you presenters, I don't know how you do it. I did one episode, one episode, and I walked out of the studio and went, never again. Never. I absolutely fell on the wrong side of the camera.

• 28:47Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 28:47Speaker 04

  By that stage, I'd already done a few days behind the camera, just as a researcher, working on stuff. And I could see them behind the camera and I thought, I did literally, literally in the wrong job. And what great jobs have they? They were lovely. They got me an equity card. They went to so much bother. And I just went, no, no, no, no. You're so arrogant when you're young, aren't you? Now, I, oh, I don't know.

• 29:08Speaker 06

  I think what you were doing, you were listening to your gut.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 29:11Speaker 06

  And you knew what was right for you.

• 29:13Speaker 04

  Yes. And that would have been an easy one to stay in, wouldn't it? It, you've got a job as a play school presenter. Lovely. That's going to run forever. And I just went, no, I just went, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. It, I literally went back on the dole and then I got offered a job in Manchester. Took that one and that changed my life. So it's funny. You just wait. I just, well, it's just, who is it, chance? Who knows? You just can't tell these things. But so I moved to Manchester. It was a two month contract. Within three days of that city, I loved it.

• 29:39Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  I just loved it.

• 29:40Speaker 06

  And I mean, it's just, it's, I've got to know recently, because my daughter lives there, I love it.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  It's gorgeous.

• 29:46Speaker 06

  The vibe.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 29:48Speaker 06

  Um.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  The architecture, the town hall.

• 29:50Speaker 06

  Or everything about it.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:51Speaker 06

  Everything about it.

• 29:52Speaker 04

  The people, the laughter.

• 29:53Speaker 06

  The people.

• 29:54Speaker 04

  And within about, I was in Tesco's and there was Audrey Roberts from Coronation Street. That's why I like it here. It's a television city.

• 30:01Speaker 06

  Granada.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  It's a television city, yes. So I got a job with the BBC. Five hundred yards down the road was Granada, which, which at the time was starting to make prime suspect and cracker. And I then, and that's when my ambition started rising up as well. And that's when I thought, I'm in the wrong building. I want to be in that building down there. And I think I never said it to myself that clearly. So with hindsight, I did that. It's even, at the time, we're a lot more confused and lost and wandering, aren't you? But nonetheless, the wandering was heading in that direction, where scripted drama was being made, scripted stuff.

• 30:32Speaker 06

  And then where did you go?

• 30:33Speaker 04

  And then I went to, I got a job at Granada. I wanted to go there. I'd started making contact with them. I had a brilliant man there, a granada called Tony Wood. I was just, he, he, he saw this in me, to be blunt. It's like, out of all the people in my life, he was the first person to go, you're a writer, you can do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And very once I'd been there for about a year, we were having a casual conversation and he said, is it my girlfriend last night? I said last night, Liz, Liz Warner, um, do you think Russell can make it as a writer? And he went, oh yeah, absolutely. And he just needs, he said that to me quite casually, like we were having a drink or something. And in my head, oh, this man thinks I can actually make it as a writer. Never forgotten it. See it

• 31:17Speaker 04

  way ahead. Little passing statements.

• 31:19Speaker 06

  That's the magic, isn't it?

• 31:20Speaker 04

  Well, strange, isn't it?

• 31:22Speaker 06

  And obviously, your book's called The Queerest of Folk, but Queer as Folk was an absolute, like, ground great.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  Did you watch that at the time?

• 31:31Speaker 06

  Yes, of course I did. And honestly, no, everybody did, right? It was, and, and I love the fact, I didn't, I couldn't believe there were only two series. That's so weird.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  It's like second season, it was only two episodes, yeah.

• 31:45Speaker 06

  I, I, yeah, I thought, like, I don't know why I thought it went on forever, but it didn't.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  We were just very, I still wonder about it. We were very hungry and ambitious. Me and Nicola, me and Nicola and Schindler made that together. And it was so successful. And there were very shenanigans at Channel Four with people leaving their jobs. Guess what? People moving on. And, but actually, we were so ambitious, we just wanted to do other things.

• 32:06Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  We went straight off. We made a thing called The Second Coming. And then we made a thing called Bob and Rose with Alec Davis and Leslie Sharp. And we made Casanova with David. We were just, we were kids. You look back and think, God.

• 32:16Speaker 06

  You had a lot in you.

• 32:18Speaker 04

  We were hungry. It's like, let's do this, let's do that, let's do this. And we did. Yeah. So, but we had a glorious time making that. And that was.

• 32:24Speaker 06

  I mean, let me, talk me through, just for anybody who hasn't seen Queer as Folk, talk me through the kind of sales pitch that you gave to Channel Four and how hard that was to get off the ground.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  Well, the funny thing is, they came to me, because I'd been working on a kind of soapy, kind of, um, more like a Downton Abbey type drama at Granada, very cheap, much cheaper than Downton Abbey, called The Grand, which is the story of a 1920s hotel. It wasn't working as a show. You know, when you're on a show that's not working? We've all been there. And it's a nightmare, isn't it? And everyone's.

• 32:52Speaker 06

  And you can feel it.

• 32:53Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. And everyone's arguing in offices. No one's telling you the truth. Everyone's panicking. Everyone's not panicking. People are jumping ship rather than panicking. It's like you could feel the creaking timbers all around the place. And I could, so it was collapsing. So in the middle of a collapsing show, I kind of thought, I'm going to write what I want. And I wrote this entirely gay episode. It was set in 1920. And I just said, and I always had a notion that this barman played by a fantastic actor called Paul Warner is gay. And in 1920, a working class gay lad, no language, no, no freedom, nothing. Hasn't got the language in his, in his heart to say what he is. And I thought, well, that's good. So I wrote a script for that. And that was seen, that was, and it was by far the

• 33:35Speaker 04

  best episode of The Grand. It suddenly stood above all the soap opera nonsense. It was in, I loved that show. It wasn't nonsense. But it was literally a better script. So a lovely woman called Katrina Mackenzie, again, your friends seeing things. So she took me out to lunch and sort of said, I mean, this was a more business-like meeting, even though she's a mate, but she took me out to lunch and said, I'm off to Channel Four. That's what you should be writing. If you'd like to come and write that for us.

• 34:00Speaker 06

  Oh, great.

• 34:01Speaker 04

  We'd love to read it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that careful TV language of saying.

• 34:04Speaker 06

  We can't promise.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  Exactly. No contract. Yeah, yeah. But we'd love to read it.

• 34:07Speaker 06

  If it's as good as that app.

• 34:08Speaker 04

  Exactly. And they, and more significantly, they put me together with Nicola Schindler, who had just left Granada herself to go as an independent. And that's a lifelong friendship that just happened there. Bang, like that. We just loved each other straight away and still go on to this day. I adore her. A lot of that book is just all about her. She's brilliant. So, yes. So, so, I mean, so it wasn't an automatic commission, but I wrote it and it poured out to me. Everything, all the, you forget those days that there weren't gay stories on telly. And, and, and they just, just, the chance to write, I'd been in soaps for years. So the chance to write swearing and drugs and sex and, and what I thought about the gay world and the gay community and the gay scene. Woof. Look at it now. It's like, it's like, it's like a bonfire. It's like my head's on fire.

• 34:51Speaker 06

  It really, really is. And I remember, I remember it being phenomenally sexy. Like, and it was the first time, I think, I'd watched same-sex.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 06

  Like, love, lust.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  All of it.

• 35:04Speaker 06

  Or all of it.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 06

  And seen a real, proper, true representation of what queer life can be like.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 06

  But it was shocking to other, some other people, like some, the mail gave you, was it Lynda Lee Potter?

• 35:20Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes, yes, yes. To literally, this is the downfall of society.

• 35:23Speaker 06

  Yeah. But it's so sad.

• 35:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And which, I mean, we kind of loved the provocation, let's be honest. It was a hard one, because Channel Four got a bit scared at the same time. It was supposed to be like a nine o'clock drama. Then it shifted to 10 o'clock. Eventually it went out to 10:30.

• 35:40Speaker 06

  Oh, did it?

• 35:40Speaker 04

  10:30, when nothing went out at 10:30.

• 35:42Speaker 06

  I forgot that.

• 35:43Speaker 04

  Yeah. We thought it was dead. We were like, good.

• 35:45Speaker 06

  Oh, no, still watching.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  But then they realized they're mistaken. And it just took, we got to like, we were at number one in the album charts. The soundtrack was number one.

• 35:53Speaker 06

  I was going to talk about the soundtrack. I didn't know that.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  Yes, number one.

• 35:57Speaker 06

  I didn't know that. It was, I mean.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  We've got a gold disc on our, on our office wall.

• 36:01Speaker 06

  Is it, is it on Spotify?

• 36:02Speaker 04

  Uh, oh, it must be. I suppose. I haven't looked. Gosh. Must be, must be.

• 36:06Speaker 06

  I feel like I want to check that right now.

• 36:08Speaker 04

  It must be, surely.

• 36:09Speaker 06

  Because honestly, the soundtrack was like the best bit. The music of the time was so good.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  Everyone was playing that soundtrack. It was brilliant. Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 06

  Oh, it got to number one.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  And the VHS got to number one. It was on VHS. Like, you know, for what was meant to be a little Channel Four niche show about the queer community up north, went mad, went absolutely lovely. Really lovely. Strange. And the success is strange, isn't it? It's like, you're not allowed to say that, but it is. It's very odd, but wonderful. Loved every second of it at the same time.

• 36:40Speaker 06

  Also incredible when you think about the good that that was doing from the get go.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  Well, the astonishing thing is now, the amount of people who come up to me, to this day, it's 2026 now. And they come up to me saying that changed my life. And I literally meet people in Manchester, often, who say, I moved to Manchester because of Queer as Folk. I'm actually, I know this lovely man, quite recently, he said, I moved here. So I met my husband here. We've now got kids here. I came because I had a beautiful friend called Jay, who passed away at the age of 41. Bless him. Lovely man. And when I went to his funeral, at the eulogy, his brother said, Jay only moved to Manchester because of Queer as Folk, which I'd never known. He'd never told me that. I was like, what the hell? Like, so that's astonishing. That's really, really, only I get that. You know, there's not many, not many people can have, see like material changes in people.

• 37:30Speaker 04

  That's one of my little things that I hold really close to my heart, thinking, wow, that's gorgeous.

• 37:34Speaker 06

  When did it come out?

• 37:36Speaker 04

  Uh, 1999 came out.

• 37:37Speaker 06

  Amazing.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. Just before the millennium. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Gorgeous. What a year. That was an amazing year. And do you know what? That's kept a door open for me for the rest of my life. I mean, that was that literally a turning point. I had lovely times in my career. Doctor Who's been brilliant. It's a sin's been brilliant. But Queer as Folk, when I went, when we went to Channel Four with Tiptoe recently, they literally said, well, the door here is open to you because of Queer as Folk. And none of the staff are the same. Everyone's moved on. There's no one there who was there in 1999. But for her, for a channel to historically remember where it comes from and the legacy that's got was amazing. And we were so thrilled. We were so touched by that. Genuinely touched.

• 38:16Speaker 06

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• 39:35Speaker 00

  Really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Stonefire naan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Stonefire naan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 40:02Speaker 07

  I love making naan grilled cheese. Is that okay?

• 40:06Speaker 03

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 40:11Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire naan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 40:16Speaker 07

  Doesn't sound friendly.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we naan.

• 40:21Speaker 06

  Bye. Tiptoe was very hard hitting.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 40:25Speaker 06

  Oh, really?

• 40:25Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, a tough piece of work.

• 40:26Speaker 06

  Tough piece of work. But what was that like to film?

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Well, as ev- well, very hard for Alan.

• 40:32Speaker 06

  I was just gonna say. He's an amazing man.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Cool, and him and David Morrissey together, you know, they're best friends, although they're not just showbiz stories about the two of them.

• 40:40Speaker 06

  Were they best friends before?

• 40:41Speaker 04

  For 40 years.

• 40:42Speaker 06

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  And they never appeared on camera together. And that way, they did their first little scene on Carol Street and we all gave them a round of applause because that was a real moment of history. It was Alan who suggested David for it. Because I kind of thought, if you'd asked me, I would have thought that Clive, the David Morrissey part, is kind of a secondary role to Leo. And you don't ask David Morrissey to do secondary roles. So I would never have thought of asking him. And it was Alan who said, oh, let's get David on board. And actually then, I kind of read, I just did the writing as I went along to make Clive an equal part, so that it was two leads. But what a gift, but very hard on both of them. But especially for Alan, it was a very, very well scheduled. Producer Phil Connisson was a genius there.

• 41:27Speaker 04

  Once we'd filmed that hanging, everyone had a week off. We had a hiatus week, which you can't afford to do with television.

• 41:34Speaker 06

  So let's just talk about that quickly. So Tiptoe, the opening scene is you see what happens.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  Yes, you see a man being hanged, who has been hanged in a Manchester street in daylight from a lamppost.

• 41:46Speaker 06

  And you don't know why.

• 41:47Speaker 04

  You don't know why.

• 41:48Speaker 06

  But then the story unfolds.

• 41:49Speaker 04

  Then it unravels over 10, 10 days that built up to this. But it's, it's, and it's my expression of where I think we're heading, Davina. It's like, here we are, I was just talking now about the Manchester murders in the synagogue. You know, Jewish people have been killed on our streets, executed in Britain now in 2026. Women, God, what am I talking about? Women are murdered every day. It's like a racism that's rising up in the streets. We can all feel it. And from my lens on this is through the queer community, obviously, where, let's face it, if I'd written a drama in which a man was beaten to death, that's a normal crime drama on ITV. If a gay man was beat to death, you could see that.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  27, that's why I had to make it a hanging, to make it bigger, to make it more formal, to make it like an execution, to make it almost stick-like, to maybe, so there has almost a sort of act of ceremony to it, saying, this is an official act that we are carrying out on behalf of the community. Because if he'd just been beat to death, that's a cop show. So yeah, it was, that was where I think we're heading, that I'm waiting for that to happen in some shape or form to this day. Terrifying, what a world.

• 43:01Speaker 06

  I'd like just to touch on social media and this idea of the algorithms and hatred. And how do we change it? Like, how can we make the world a more loving place? I'm so keen on trying to just spread love as the message.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  I know you are.

• 43:20Speaker 06

  And I don't know, yeah, but how, how can we all do that?

• 43:25Speaker 04

  I think, I think we have to bang on the door of every single MP and pester them so that the media platforms are treated as publishers, so they're responsible for what they publish. That's the one change that I think, we're not going to stop. I completely agree with banning it for under 16s, I completely, I'm completely.

• 43:44Speaker 06

  Yes, me too.

• 43:44Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, they're eight years old, eight-year-olds flooded with porn out there. It's like, we're insane. We will look back on this society and say we are insane. And so really, it's like books can't publish what they want. You can't say whatever you like on this podcast. Every form of broadcasting or communication or media is responsible, except for these techpounds and these platforms. Just alter that law, make them responsible for what they're doing, and we will see massive changes. I mean, it does scare me, because it's like, I did, you know, with the rise you get of racist voices online and homophobic, misogynist voices online, I'm always torn thinking, are,

• 44:29Speaker 04

  does the freedom allow people to talk like that? Or have they always thought like that and they were just hidden before? That's what worries me.

• 44:35Speaker 06

  The other thing that I think is really weird is sometimes I feel like people are angry and hateful and spouting shocking statements, but for clicks, they're actually, you meet them in the flesh.

• 44:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:52Speaker 06

  And you're like, oh, you're lovely.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 44:54Speaker 06

  You think, you're not lovely online, like, what's going on? But it's like, oh, well, if I'm lovely, doesn't sell.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  Lovely, or, a friend of mine always says that if she met these people who were being rude about you, you'd never be angry with them ever again, because they're very lacking in all sorts of ways. So I think lovely is the kind version. And I think, and I think I'm more inclined to agree with his version, that, and also it's all like, oh, there's a very, very brilliant book being written by a man called Harry Tanner, called The Queer Thing About Sin, who's a historian, and it's a study of classical civilizations of ancient Athens. It shows how these patterns have happened again and again and again and again. In Athens, it was there, in 2000 B.C. And it shows how.

• 45:36Speaker 06

  So weird that.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  It's amazing, it shows how outliers appear in society, rich, independent, rich men independent of government or church, and they achieve power. And what they do with that power is malicious. All the Elon Musks, they've all been there throughout history.

• 45:52Speaker 06

  I was going to say, you've written a very prophetic book.

• 45:54Speaker 04

  Bye.

• 45:55Speaker 06

  Yeah, about like, the right, the uprising of the right and the, like, you know.

• 46:02Speaker 04

  Here we are.

• 46:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 04

  I have been writing about it for years.

• 46:04Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  Actually.

• 46:05Speaker 06

  It's quite weird, you know, when we look back.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 46:09Speaker 06

  You saw it coming.

• 46:11Speaker 04

  Well, I think it did. I think, I think, it's funny, it's, going back to my childhood home, my lovely mum and dad, they were, they were French teachers, they were also classics teachers. And I grew up with, there's a whole row of books on the bookcase about Greek and Roman myths. And so from like five or six years old, I was kind of living with the fact that civilizations rise and civilizations fall. You sit there looking at the Roman Empire, we joke about the Roman Empire now, you look at how many, I'm going, I'm going to the theatre, I'm going to the National to see Electra, which will be my fourth Greek story, Greek tragedy of the year, with the Odyssey and the Orstaeus of the British. Anyway, but you look at these books saying that civilizations rise, civilizations fall. So I've always kind of been ready for this one to fall.

• 46:55Speaker 04

  And we're doing a really good job at heading that way right now. Frightening. Do you tell your kids that, though? Would your kids just think I'm an old man shouting at a cloud?

• 47:03Speaker 06

  No, but I think they can, they can feel something's coming.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  Have they?

• 47:08Speaker 06

  I keep singing, you know that Florence and the Machine song, something's coming, something's big.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  That's the last line of Tiptoe, I think something big is gonna happen. Yeah, that's the last thing he says.

• 47:18Speaker 06

  That was a Kate Bush song. And I feel that something, oh, she says, good, gonna happen. I don't know where.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  It is, isn't it? You know me and my Kate Bush story?

• 47:26Speaker 06

  No.

• 47:27Speaker 04

  Which is that her son was a very big Doctor Who fan.

• 47:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  So she used to write to the office. And one day she wrote me a long handwritten card, how much she loved Doctor Who, and thank you for the gifts, and thank you for this, and please come to tea. And I've loved Kate Bush all my life. I was, you know, I was, I was 14 when Wuthering Heights came out, or I was that age, loved her. And I was so scared, talk about, I needed your podcast, Davina, to give me sense and direction and common sense, because I was so scared, I didn't answer. I was, it was Kate Bush, I thought, what, yeah, thank you. Like, what do I do? And I, and so I left it on the shelf for like six months. And then it gets worse, I can't reply after six months. She's gonna think I'm so rude, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 48:09Speaker 06

  You didn't reply, did you?

• 48:10Speaker 04

  Then one day I came home and my friend Tracy went, I've had a good clear, and I've chucked it in there, and the card had been chucked out with her telephone number on it. And I never did. I then, many years later, I then told this story on Desert Island Discs. And she got in touch, saying, right, let's go for lunch. And then Covid came along. And so we still happened. And I kind of, I kind of rather love the fact that I've never actually met Kate Bush. It's like, it's very funny.

• 48:34Speaker 06

  But have you been storing up what you're gonna say?

• 48:36Speaker 04

  I don't know what I have to go.

• 48:37Speaker 06

  What would you say?

• 48:38Speaker 04

  I mean, I know.

• 48:39Speaker 06

  I would be the same. I had lunch with her once, with Michael. And I, I didn't, I mean, I'm the same as you.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Yes, that's kind of why I don't want to go. I'd be an idiot.

• 48:49Speaker 06

  She is the story, like, she is like the soundtrack.

• 48:53Speaker 04

  Did you think I would just talk like an idiot?

• 48:54Speaker 06

  Yes, well, I just let Michael talk.

• 48:56Speaker 04

  I even had, I had two, those recent concerts she did, those one-off concerts.

• 48:59Speaker 06

  I went.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  I had two seats and Andrew was ill. He wasn't well, he was, I don't know. And do you know what? I didn't even, I didn't even tell him the theatre to resell the tickets. I just thought, I'm sitting there in that empty space. There's an empty space, which is mine tonight.

• 49:11Speaker 06

  I cried all the way through.

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Oh, I bet.

• 49:12Speaker 06

  It was magnificent.

• 49:13Speaker 04

  Oh, God.

• 49:15Speaker 06

  So let's just talk, um, quickly about years and years.

• 49:18Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 49:19Speaker 06

  Um, so tell me how, where did, where did that come?

• 49:22Speaker 04

  Well, that was, that's the only time in my life that a TV boss has ever turned around to me. Lovely Piers Wenger was the head of BBC Drama at the time. No one's ever said this before, or since. He just turned around to me and said, what have you always wanted to write?

• 49:35Speaker 06

  The joy of joys.

• 49:36Speaker 04

  Well, yes, I've always wanted to write a family going through time and experiencing life and the future happening around them and where I think the future's heading of things getting worse and worse and worse.

• 49:47Speaker 06

  So that was twenty eighteen?

• 49:48Speaker 04

  That was twenty eighteen.

• 49:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was writing it then. It must have come out twenty nineteen. We made it. That's when Andrew died in twenty eighteen and it came out in twenty nineteen. And yes, so it was like, um, a great, and when it came to write it, I realised I had notes everywhere that I'd been keeping of historical things and medical things that had been happening.

• 50:07Speaker 06

  Been in you.

• 50:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's, I'd been getting ready to write it. I had old copies of The New Scientist with pages folded. I go, what's this? Oh, that article about macular degeneration, how that can be cured now. That happens in one episode. Um, yeah, so I'd been building up a store for about twenty years, I think, ready to write it. And then it all came out. I love that show. What a cast.

• 50:28Speaker 06

  It really, really was mind blowing.

• 50:32Speaker 04

  Was it? Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 50:33Speaker 06

  Um, and brilliantly thought provoking.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 06

  And I think, again, one of those brilliant aspects to everything that you do is that it's controversial enough to make us all want to go and go, God, did you, did you see that? So weird. Like somebody wanting to,

• 50:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 06

  you know, change the, like where they are on implants or some kind of.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  Transhumanism.

• 50:56Speaker 06

  Yes, so, and, and how that's just got kind of more and more, hasn't it, really, with this idea that we can have little things?

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Oh, that's where I had it.

• 51:05Speaker 06

  Implants or, yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 04

  Phone built into your hand.

• 51:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  They do that and they've got a phone there.

• 51:10Speaker 06

  So nuts. And we think, oh, that's nuts, but it's coming.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  It's, I did have fun with it. I mean, I had fun with it. But the strange things are not fun at all. Like, they, I, you were looking at the rise of Russia and, and, and its aggression towards the West. And so I invented an invasion of Ukraine.

• 51:23Speaker 06

  Yes, I mean, that's frightening.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  Well, what, there we go. But that's obviously where they were heading, because they'd already annexed Crimea. So it's just a small, I look at a psychic. It's not psychic at all. Every politician of any, Naus was sitting there going, it'll be, it'll be Ukraine next. And indeed it was. Um, so yeah, very strange to look at. Um, but I loved it. I did love it. There was a lot of, that had built up in my heart for a very long time. I loved writing it, yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 06

  You talked about, um, Andrew just then dying in twenty eighteen. And I was just wondering if you could tell me a bit about, um, Andrew. And I know you have talked about revisiting the moment you first saw him. And I just wondered if you would,

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 52:05Speaker 06

  take us on that journey.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  That's why Canal Street is woven into my heart, really. And so I love writing about Canal Street. Um, because twelfth of April nineteen ninety-eight, there I was at a club, I know, there I was. In the days when clubs used to close at two AM.

• 52:20Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:20Speaker 04

  They used to close then.

• 52:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  If, if we had our licences and all those now, I'd probably never have met him because I'd have just carried on. But it was ten to two in the morning. And in a gay club, that's when you pull or you don't. It's like, that's it, or you go home alone. You know, the honesty, you'd be there, scanning and like that. And the amazing thing about meeting Andrew is that we'd both lived in Manchester for at least ten years. And we both went out clubbing on Canal Street. And that's only the same few pubs and clubs. We'd never seen each other. I couldn't believe that, wouldn't I? Because the moment I saw him, I was like, and I absolutely swear, this sounds like hindsight. Absolutely, this is true. And I don't believe in any sort of mystical nonsense at all. But I literally saw him across, uh, across a club called Cruise One O One.

• 53:01Speaker 04

  And I literally thought, oh, that's him. I did. I absolutely did. And I got, and then, uh, so we went home together that night. That was a Saturday night. And I honest to God walked into work on the Monday morning with Nicola Schindler, which is a good weekend. I went, yeah, I met a man. And she's witness to this. I said, I think this one's gonna last for years. And it is not funny.

• 53:21Speaker 06

  And wait, when you, you met, you met Andrew, but did you talk and swap numbers? Did you?

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Yes, eventually it was.

• 53:28Speaker 06

  Together or did we not?

• 53:29Speaker 04

  Spent the night together and for numbers, let's go out next weekend.

• 53:33Speaker 06

  Oh, wow.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  I mean, you can't ever say you knew. But on that, two days later, I was saying to Nicola, this is gonna last for years. I just knew.

• 53:38Speaker 06

  And it did.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  And it did. It lasted for twenty. In the end, twenty years.

• 53:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, absolutely fantastic.

• 53:44Speaker 04

  Gorgeous. You'd love it. You'd love it. He loved you. And I say, what was your, what's your Channel Four quiz show with all the mu, the money coming down?

• 53:51Speaker 06

  Oh, um, the million pound.

• 53:52Speaker 04

  No, no, the million pound drop.

• 53:54Speaker 06

  Oh, Five Minutes to Fortune.

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Five Minutes to Fortune.

• 53:56Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  We love that.

• 53:58Speaker 06

  That was, that was a brilliant, that was such an exciting show.

• 54:02Speaker 04

  Underrated show.

• 54:03Speaker 06

  But so tell me, like, you two got together.

• 54:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:06Speaker 06

  And what, what was that, were those first sort of ten, twelve years like?

• 54:11Speaker 04

  Oh, uh, well, the funny thing is, because twelve years in, he got brain cancer. I have a hard time remembering the first twelve years, which I need to work on. I need to work on. I don't have forgotten them. And we did also take a holiday together, stuff like that. But what I think, when you say to me, Andrew, it's the last eight years. My mind goes.

• 54:29Speaker 06

  How did that, how did that happen?

• 54:31Speaker 04

  But not necessarily in a bad way, because actually the second, the last eight years were more intimate and closer. And in a way more beautiful. I wish he wasn't ill, obviously. Um, but that, in a way, that was like the real relationship.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  And well, because in those eight years, we practically spent every hour of every day together. Because, um, he had, you know, he, he, he was diagnosed with brain cancer. Uh, you're supposed to live for like eighteen months maximum. Uh, he lived for eight years. You know, it was.

• 54:58Speaker 06

  That's incredible, isn't it?

• 54:59Speaker 04

  Incredible. It was incredible. And, and, and, and, and so for the, I was more or less with him every second of the day. He had seven brain operations, seven. I can't remember what they were. If you ask me to live, I can remember what four of them were. What was the other three? What the hell was going on? Um, a lot of corrections. That's a lot to recover from. That was like months in hospital sometimes. Um, for one point, three months in hospital, just like, at one point, he had to sleep next to a giant spirit level, a big yellow metal spirit level, because he couldn't come off the horizontal. Uh, if he did that, the, well, he'd be ill, which is the fluid in his, but a spirit level, next to him like that, mad. Um, gosh, the things we saw.

• 55:40Speaker 06

  And he, am I right in saying he didn't want to know what his prognosis was?

• 55:45Speaker 04

  That's really interesting. When it was first diagnosed, and actually, because I got the diagnosis, I went straight online and it's a terrible diagnosis.

• 55:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, my sister had it. Well, she had lung cancer, but then her secondary was glioblastoma.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Oh, there we are. And you just know it's bad, isn't it? I didn't know that, darling. Gosh, it's a thing, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so I knew. And some little survival, he loved scrolling on his own, but some little survival instinct made him not looking up. We all looked it up. He didn't. He'd sit there doing bloody Sudoku or something, never looked it up. And then we went for the official diagnosis uh, with a fantastic doctor called Doctor McBane, who explained, yes, this is stage four cancer. Um, and he hadn't even looked up the fact that if it's stage four, that's, that's bad.

• 56:29Speaker 06

  What that means, yeah.

• 56:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, there was no stage five. And she said, do you want the, that's the diagnosis, do you want the prognosis? And completely, I went, no, no thanks. Oh, we hadn't discussed that. I just presumed he would. And I was, oh, fine. And then, because I knew, because I'd looked it up. So as we left the room, we had a fantastic Macmillan nurse called Sarah. I'm still in touch with her on Instagram, amazing woman. Uh, and I said, is that all right that he doesn't know? She went, it's fine. It's completely fine. She, she said, do you be surprised how often that happens? She said, as long as someone close knows the truth. And she said, you know the truth. I went, yes, I do. That's fine. We just need that. And actually, in some ways, I mean, I don't wanna say this as a lesson. I'm not saying this is what you should do, because everyone's different.

• 57:12Speaker 04

  But looking back on him, I do think sometimes that helped him live for so long.

• 57:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Because I'll tell you what, there were times, there were so many times where we'd go to A and E at four in the morning, and he'd have a blinding headache. Or he'd be throwing up. He got every infection in the world. And so we'd go into hospital and sometimes he's staying for weeks. He never thought he was dying. He never, he had no headache. Did he think, this is it? This is the end? And I think that helped. I think he, it was always this great inconvenience to him. Oh, I've had up of hospital. Don't worry, you'll be home soon. And that, that story kind of worked. It was like weaving a story. I do feel like, and I actually felt like I was telling him a story all the time. And I would. And I'd sort of say, when we do this, when you, I wouldn't say when you get better. I was very careful not to lie. But I'd say, we will do this, we'll do that. So we had actually a very nice life.

• 57:58Speaker 04

  I'm lucky enough to go another house in Swansea, so we could stay down there. That's by the sea. And he loved it there. He loved it so much. My sisters were wonderful to him. Great family. He's got a great family. So there was a lot of comfort and joy and love in those years, an awful lot of it. I must concentrate on those first twelve years. It's kind of my task for the next few years to say.

• 58:17Speaker 06

  Be interesting that to go.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:18Speaker 06

  I wonder why it's hard to see it.

• 58:21Speaker 04

  It, it was just more intimate. It's just, it was in a kind of way, I mean, I suppose the first twelve years, I was working a lot. I was busy, oh, let's go out to dinner, I'm busy, sorry. Like, there was a lot of that going on. And I spent a long time working in Cardiff.

• 58:34Speaker 06

  You think you've got forever, don't you?

• 58:35Speaker 04

  Well, exactly. That's the thing as well. Yes, you're running about like a mad fly. And actually, this makes you stop and go, right? And you say, you know, right, I'm gonna come to, I missed his very first, because I was busy and gadding about all of it. I missed his very first meeting where they said, you've got brain cancer. So after that, I came home, oh my God. And so after that, I said, I'm never going to miss another medical meeting. I'm going to every single meeting with you. And did. Strange, isn't it?

• 59:01Speaker 06

  Changed your life.

• 59:02Speaker 04

  You'd love him.

• 59:03Speaker 06

  That died.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  He was delightful.

• 59:04Speaker 06

  I already do.

• 59:06Speaker 04

  Thank you. That's a lovely thing to say. He's really, really wonderful, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:10Speaker 06

  I had the same thing with my sister.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 06

  The last, she was, we were told she had eighteen months and then the doctor said to me, actually, it probably is more like nine.

• 59:20Speaker 04

  Gosh.

• 59:21Speaker 06

  But she died seven weeks later. But those seven weeks, just like you.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  Hmm. I used to read interviews with you and it's a great consolation to see someone go through the same thing. And you talked in one interview about, was it every Sunday night you did the pills?

• 59:33Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 59:34Speaker 04

  That's a huge job, isn't it? Counting out the pills.

• 59:36Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  That was my, I think, well, I did Sunday nights. I don't know if you did the same thing, but it was Sunday night. Lee had the week's pills. It's a lot. It's an awful lot. I got them wrong once. And he started getting very ill. Instead of like two of those, one of those, I was doing one of those and two of those. And for over three weeks, he was very ill. And then, then I went, I actually read the back of the bloody box and I was like, oh my god, maybe I go and see the doctors. This doctor McBean, who said, it's very strange you're getting all dizzy. You know, we can't quite work it out. And I just sit in this meeting going, behind, behind Andrew's back going, imagine if you'd given someone, had given like a double dose of that and a single, could that cause these symptoms? And she was like, oh, and we never told him. She went, I think I've sorted now then? Yes.

• 1:00:22Speaker 04

  That's not brilliant. I'm terrible. I'm a murderer, basically.

• 1:00:25Speaker 06

  You're not terrible. It's, it's so hard.

• 1:00:29Speaker 04

  It's funny how you remember the bad stuff.

• 1:00:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 04

  It's like, it's like, it's that human instinct that says, I mean, I looked after him night and day. And then eventually when he was dying, he was in hospital, they said, this is, I had to tell him he was dying. His doctor was in another hospital.

• 1:00:42Speaker 06

  Really?

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  And she phoned with the results and scan and she said, well, I could come by tomorrow. She said, you could tell him. So I was the one to tell him he was dying, which actually, I think is one of the greatest privileges of my entire life.

• 1:00:53Speaker 06

  Thank god it came from you.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  Oh, I think so. It's like, I'm making myself sound very marvelous. I'm sure I handled it quite that well. It was like, oh my god. Um, I was much sadder and emotional than I expected to be. I thought I'd be all cool and calm and marvelous. And I wasn't. I was like, oh my god. Did the first thing he said? Um, uh, he said, I feel sorry for you.

• 1:01:10Speaker 06

  Oh.

• 1:01:12Speaker 04

  I know. That's what he was like. That's, it's not like, oh wow, I mean, Jesus. That's, that's what he was like. Amazing, isn't it? Uh, on NHS ward with the curtains pulled around us and a nasty man in the bed next to us. Oh, it was just so weird.

• 1:01:29Speaker 06

  But what a,

• 1:01:30Speaker 04

  Well, what a thing to say.

• 1:01:31Speaker 06

  Beautiful moment to share.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 06

  Was he, was he scared?

• 1:01:36Speaker 04

  No, actually, I've got to say.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  At that point.

• 1:01:39Speaker 04

  And I actually, I think, this is, I don't know how true this is, but he was tired of it all by then. That was, that was, he'd gone, he'd gone back onto chemo. He'd had a long time without chemo. Then I'd go back on chemo. It's like, oh, it's exhausting. And he was sleeping a lot. And I'm not saying, I'm never, I don't remotely mean he wanted to die. But he was very tired of it. And actually, it's, it's with that cancer, that for his version of that cancer, it might not happen to everyone. It was kind of a forgiving way to slip out the world because he just slept and slept and slept.

• 1:02:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  Till he was gone.

• 1:02:10Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:02:11Speaker 04

  There was, and sometimes cancer can be awful and bloody and horrific.

• 1:02:15Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  Painful.

• 1:02:16Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:02:16Speaker 04

  It wasn't that, I've got to say. And also, the great secret of the world, at least in Manchester, was palliative care from the NHS. Our greatest secret, magnificent. The nurses, the care, the district nurses coming around to the house. Oh my god. Those beautiful people. It was amazing.

• 1:02:33Speaker 06

  And then there's a beautiful moment where quite by accident, you were with him when he died because you were.

• 1:02:42Speaker 04

  Yes. Yes. Well, he was meant to, every, my lovely sister came upstairs. My other sister was in New York. She would have come. The sister Susie was there. And she's like, she just came up for like three days. And after about the fifth day, I turned around and went, what are you doing here? You're still here? She went, I think I'll stay. I thought, okay, you're going to realise it's ending that way. And a lovely, lovely, um, um, friend of ours came in. Lyn, Lyn Hunter, who ended up becoming the celebrant at his funeral. And, and, um, and she'd lost her husband. And she said, he's just got a couple of days left. And, um, you took that from her. But weirdly, every Saturday night, the Marie Kewee nurse was booked to come around. Oh, our lifesavers. Please, please, please give money to Marie Kewee.

• 1:03:25Speaker 06

  Yeah, they are amazing, aren't they?

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Amazing. I mean, if you don't know what it is, it's like when you're in a period of suffering, where you're caring for someone, they give you one night off. This angel simply comes to the house and sits there so unobtrusively, so you can just go to bed early. I didn't do it. I just went to bed early and read a book. And so every Saturday night, that was the case, the Marie Kewee nurse would sit with Andrew. And then that Saturday night, the nurse didn't turn up. I'm sitting there with my sister going, where are they then? And then I kind of went, oh, oh, wait a minute. I didn't say to book it. But I was, I was assuming this was a regular thing. I didn't tell the district nurse. It's my fault. Didn't book it. So it doesn't matter. We said we'd stay there. And then strangely, that's the night he died. So my sister and I were there.

• 1:04:08Speaker 04

  Literally holding one hand each on either side of him. And if the nurse had come, we would have gone off and, and been upstairs and, and, or maybe he would have always passed away with us. Who knows? You can't tell. But isn't that strange? It was, it sounded like we were meant to be there. And that was a moment to be there. Were you there for your sister? Were you there at that moment? It's, it's.

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  It was an honour.

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  Yes, it is an honour. Yes, it is, isn't it? It's, it's kind of indescribable, really. I'm supposed to have the words, but yeah, I was there.

• 1:04:38Speaker 06

  I'm really pleased you were.

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. I do think.

• 1:04:43Speaker 06

  For both of you.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  I do think, I also think some people miss it. And I do think you should say to people, don't, you didn't, you didn't miss anything.

• 1:04:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Speaker 04

  You know, I wasn't there for my mother, my mother passed away. And I'm kind of fine about that. It's how my sisters were. And I don't beat myself up about that. I'm fine, whatever. It's like, that's not the important thing, actually.

• 1:05:00Speaker 06

  Can I say that's another thing I really love about you is that when we've said something and it was a lovely moment for you, but you have constantly said, but if you can't do that, don't worry.

• 1:05:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 06

  You, you are such a thoughtful man. No, honestly, it's one of like.

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  But I do think, we live in this world, don't we? Where we're told to do this, be there, do this. All the wellness guides and things like that. Be with someone when they're dying. It's like, you can't always. And actually, and I wasn't there with my mum, I wasn't with my mum when she died for any other reason. I was just fed up. How many, how many hours can you sit in a hospital bed? It was awful. And, oh, you know, she didn't look well at all. And, um, I just went home.

• 1:05:40Speaker 06

  But sometimes she, she might have been waiting for you to go.

• 1:05:43Speaker 04

  Yes, they say that as well, don't they? Do you know what? For years, I thought, I tell you what, my lying family, it's like for years, I thought, oh, I did think, oh, my sisters were there. I wasn't. I kind of thought they win, you know?

• 1:05:56Speaker 06

  All right.

• 1:05:56Speaker 04

  The constant family battle, they win. And only very recently, they both confessed they were both asleep.

• 1:06:04Speaker 04

  It was only about a year ago this time. I was like, what? For years? For twenty years? I'd be going, oh, I wasn't there. Like, they slept.

• 1:06:10Speaker 06

  They weren't either.

• 1:06:11Speaker 04

  They weren't either. Bless them.

• 1:06:15Speaker 06

  That is really funny.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  But I love them for that. It's funny.

• 1:06:19Speaker 06

  I, I was thinking when you were saying about his prognosis and him not wanting to know his prognosis about.

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Speaker 06

  How nowadays we are always being told you are what you say you are, you know, like you can look into the mirror. Go, I'm a wellness making machine and your body hears you in some way. And, and how him not knowing could have been the thing.

• 1:06:40Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:06:41Speaker 06

  That kept him going.

• 1:06:42Speaker 04

  Do, I do wonder.

• 1:06:43Speaker 06

  That if you know you've got eighteen months predicted.

• 1:06:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:06:47Speaker 06

  Then you've, you've got a limit.

• 1:06:48Speaker 04

  It ticks away, doesn't it?

• 1:06:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, it does. You've got like a time bomb in your head and that's not good.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  Unless, unless, I'm going to see the other points of view now, which is that maybe some people live in those eighteen months and do all the things they, they want to do and say. And maybe they live for eighteen months rather than twelve months.

• 1:07:05Speaker 06

  Did Andrew have a bucket list?

• 1:07:07Speaker 04

  Do we? Didn't really, because we've had a very nice life. And, um, we'd travelled a lot, we'd done things, um. No, he didn't have anything like that. It's like, we were never happier than we just started watching television.

• 1:07:18Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:07:19Speaker 04

  We loved, that's one of the things, when we very first met, one of our very first, I had ten to two in the morning in cruise order one. I think within about five minutes, I was like, do you watch Coronation Street? Yes, I do. Good.

• 1:07:29Speaker 06

  Okay, that's, okay, you've passed.

• 1:07:31Speaker 04

  Lovely. Honestly, and we loved watching television again. Loved it. Oh my god, the two of us. On the night of Richard Hillman on Coronation Street, when, when, when he kidnapped Gail and the family and drove them into the canal. It's like, we've never been happier.

• 1:07:46Speaker 04

  We were in ecstatic fits.

• 1:07:48Speaker 06

  Isn't it lovely to have those memories with you forever?

• 1:07:51Speaker 04

  Oh, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes. That was from the first twelve years. There we go.

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  You've started me.

• 1:07:55Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 04

  It's opening up. Good.

• 1:07:58Speaker 06

  Good.

• 1:07:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:59Speaker 06

  We're on a podcast called Begin Again.

• 1:08:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:08:03Speaker 06

  I know that after losing a big love, it's very hard to believe you'll ever find love again.

• 1:08:08Speaker 04

  Yes, that's very true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 06

  You have?

• 1:08:10Speaker 04

  Madly, I know. It's just a man called Oliver, who's six foot two, blonde, Australian. And I wasn't even looking. I literally thought, I'm sixty-three now, who's looking for anything like that? And I'm not particularly, I'm not particularly social. I don't really go out. I don't go to parties. I haven't been to a party in years. I just don't do that. And I don't go to the pub.

• 1:08:32Speaker 06

  What do you do?

• 1:08:33Speaker 04

  I'd sit home and I watch telly and I work. I'm a very, very hard worker. And so that is, and I like that. I'm very, very happy. I'm genuinely happy watching the telly. And Gibbs hit me in front of the chase to Bradley Walsh. I have the happiest hour ever. There was a celebrity special on last night. They won a hundred and twenty thousand pounds. I was ecstatic, honestly. It thrills. I love that stuff. I love it. So I wasn't remotely looking at all. And then that's when bang, along comes someone who was just lovely. We just had pride together. He came to Manchester for his first pride, Oliver's first pride.

• 1:09:07Speaker 06

  How long ago did you meet?

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  It's been over a year now. It's been a year and three months now and it's lasting.

• 1:09:14Speaker 06

  And how did you meet?

• 1:09:15Speaker 04

  I'd say it's a terrible thing. It was online, where he commented on something I'd posted on Instagram. And then I look at his, as you do, I mean, to be honest, I often ignore comments and things like that because there's too much going on. And but I looked at his photo, I went, oh, hello. So genuinely, hiya, like that. And then we go chatting. And then I did think this is dreadful. He's just a good looking young man and you shouldn't do this. And I just don't do that sort of thing. And then, but then you just, you don't know who you are in the end. Suddenly you are that person. And but he was always lovely and funny and witty. And even then, I thought, so eventually after three months of chatting with no sexting or anything like that, nothing, just literally chatting to each other. And he said, let's go for dinner. Where are you in London to go for dinner?

• 1:09:58Speaker 04

  And I was like, I literally didn't think that was a date. I just thought this is, I thought it'd be really lovely to have dinner with a really nice man. And in the middle of that dinner, he leaned over and kissed me. And I was like, what the hell? I was like, what? Literally, what going on? And then here we are. Isn't that mad? Just wasn't looking for it at all.

• 1:10:19Speaker 06

  I'm so happy for you.

• 1:10:20Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:10:21Speaker 06

  You've had a tough time.

• 1:10:22Speaker 04

  And what's nice is we talk about Andrew an awful lot. There's no way.

• 1:10:25Speaker 06

  He doesn't feel threatened by that in any way.

• 1:10:28Speaker 04

  Oh my God, he loves to do stories about him now all the time. Especially my house is like this, you know, all you want. Oh, a million stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's lovely, I think.

• 1:10:38Speaker 06

  I think that's a really helpful lesson to people to understand when you've loved somebody and lost them, it doesn't mean that they've gone from your life.

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 1:10:48Speaker 06

  How you feel.

• 1:10:48Speaker 04

  No, no, no. Oh, I still talk to Andrew all the time. I'm still, when he first, when he, for the first few years when he gone, I'd say something out loud to him.

• 1:10:58Speaker 04

  And if I knew that he wouldn't have heard me, I'd repeat it.

• 1:11:02Speaker 04

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:11:03Speaker 06

  Did you hear me?

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes. I knew that he, that I didn't say that loud enough around the corner. What I mean is, what the hell? What am I doing? It's funny, isn't it?

• 1:11:12Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 1:11:13Speaker 04

  But I love it.

• 1:11:13Speaker 06

  You get that? Yes.

• 1:11:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:15Speaker 06

  I really can't finish this like interview without talking to you about Doctor Who, obviously.

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 06

  I mean, you are synonymous with that show and you kind of came and went and came and went. And you've just left again.

• 1:11:32Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:11:32Speaker 06

  And this is like a big end of an era.

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Speaker 06

  Not to say it won't start again, but just like of this era, of this era. But talk me through how that started.

• 1:11:43Speaker 04

  Gosh, that was, that was, I mean, it was off air. So by the time I became a television writer, it hadn't been on telly for quite some time. I always loved it. I always, because I loved it, I always thought it should come back equally. I kind of thought that'll never come back.

• 1:12:00Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:12:00Speaker 04

  Because it was an old, clunky, funny old show that maybe had had its day. But then, so but quite by accident, and I didn't plan this, I swear to you, I began my own campaign to bring it back because I put in Queer as Folk, I put a Doctor Who loving fan

• 1:12:15Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:12:16Speaker 04

  into that, who was surrounded by all the paraphernalia. K-9 appeared in the show and things like that. And I was, the reason I was doing that was to show that Doctor Who fans could be cool and sexy and nice. They didn't have to be the nerdy, anarchic, the stereotype show. So that was my reason for doing it. But that accidentally linked my name with Doctor Who. And then, so then the BBC began to be interested in bringing it back. And so my name was the one that was linked. It was pure chance like that. And then one day someone said to Jane Trent, the head of drama, Ross, Nicola Schindler said to Russell wants to do that. We were all at a launch party, Belinda Green, starring Lisa Tarbuck.

• 1:12:51Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, remember that? There was a launch, yeah. That, that's strange. It's a pivotal show in the history of Doctor Who because at the launch party in Manchester, in the Lowry Hotel, yeah. Nicola said to Jane, Russell would like to do Doctor Who. Jane literally said she looked across the room and went, oh, that's it. That's how to bring back Doctor Who. That's it. So I didn't really have to beg and plead and scratch and whimper because then they came to me and said, do you want to do it? Which I couldn't believe for a long while. I spent about a year going, this isn't real and you'll never afford it. And also what sort of Doctor Who? Do you mean like an ironic Doctor Who? Do you mean like a piss take of it? Do you mean like a late night cheat? You know, and then when I realised it was the real deal, they were out.

• 1:13:32Speaker 06

  It was the real deal.

• 1:13:33Speaker 04

  I went, which is a huge deal because.

• 1:13:35Speaker 06

  I launched an entirely new generation of fans.

• 1:13:38Speaker 04

  Oh, it's lovely. I get, I literally get, because I live in Manchester, which is a very studenty town, as you know. And so students are now of that age where they come up to me in the street and say, you made my childhood, which is very strange.

• 1:13:48Speaker 06

  Several people here saying the same thing.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  It's funny. Someone came up to me the other day and said, I had a Tardis in my garden.

• 1:13:54Speaker 06

  Wow.

• 1:13:55Speaker 04

  Wow, it's like, and they really mean it. It's like, it's such a compliment. It's the nicest thing in the world. And one of the nicest things about it is that I walk down the street and I, and every day I get smiled at by someone. And it's kind of a Doctor Who, so it's either a Queer as Folk smile or it's a Doctor Who smile. It's just a like that thing.

• 1:14:15Speaker 06

  But what a life.

• 1:14:16Speaker 04

  What a privilege. I know. Who has that? It's a really lovely thing. Yeah, I know.

• 1:14:21Speaker 06

  It's so good.

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. It's a little glimpse into why pop stars go mad. Because you can see if people do that to you all the time, the world must look crazy. It's like genuinely, that's what pop stars and film stars care. Everyone doing that to them. No wonder you got mad. Oh, my God. That's strange.

• 1:14:37Speaker 06

  You can put all your friends in it because you've, I mean, I've, I've only met you once before, but.

• 1:14:42Speaker 04

  You were in it.

• 1:14:42Speaker 06

  I was in it twice.

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:44Speaker 06

  Davina Droid.

• 1:14:45Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 1:14:46Speaker 06

  Which was epic.

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  You were on stage. You were presenting when we won the BAFTA.

• 1:14:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  In two thousand and six.

• 1:14:51Speaker 06

  So brilliant.

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  You were there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:53Speaker 06

  Like, what, what timing?

• 1:14:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Speaker 06

  But honestly, the reaction that I had from you putting me in that show was so good. The tutu act was mega.

• 1:15:05Speaker 04

  Merry Christmas, Davina McCall. You say it's your last, that's brilliant, isn't it? Couldn't resist.

• 1:15:09Speaker 06

  I mean, you did, obviously, Tiptoe was the last thing out this year, but you've got something else brewing and you're not sure what it is.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  There's, I tell you what, I have got coming.

• 1:15:18Speaker 06

  What's that process? Oh, go on, go on. What?

• 1:15:20Speaker 04

  Oh, no, that brewing process is just, actually, the brewing process is horrible.

• 1:15:24Speaker 06

  Is it? Why?

• 1:15:25Speaker 04

  Well, it doesn't make sense. Why am I doing this? Will it work? Who should we get? No, I don't know what we're doing. Is that a plot twist too far? Is that silly? It's all those doubts. Do you know the Twenty Seven Road?

• 1:15:33Speaker 06

  How do you do it? Do you pin things on boards? Is it all here?

• 1:15:36Speaker 04

  None of it all here.

• 1:15:37Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 1:15:37Speaker 04

  I know a lot of writers do, and it works for a lot of writers. But that's just the same as having it there. And in fact, I think that formalizes a bit was if it's just here, it can all.

• 1:15:46Speaker 06

  Do you tell friends? Do you talk it through with anyone?

• 1:15:48Speaker 04

  No, no, no. Now, our brand new boyfriend is, Oliver's going to get used to this. Because I said to him, I'm thinking about a new, a new thing. And he thought, what is it? Never you might. I'm not telling you that. It's absolutely.

• 1:15:59Speaker 06

  Is that because they might infect it?

• 1:16:01Speaker 04

  The more you say it out loud, it kind of formalizes itself and it settles. It's like, no, you're going to let it go anywhere and do anything. And so, and it might not happen. And but actually, then I got, then funnily enough, I got an email off Nicola Schindler the other day saying, I've just been through the files. You were first talking about this in twenty eighteen. I thought it was a brand new idea. She was like, it's actually, it's been here as a piece of paper for a long time. Great. That's a good sign.

• 1:16:24Speaker 06

  She's an amazing partner for you.

• 1:16:25Speaker 04

  Oh, my God. Adore her. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. She's the best. But what we have got going on, work wise, is in February in Manchester, Ron Bear are doing a dance version of It's a Sin. How lovely is that?

• 1:16:40Speaker 06

  Next year?

• 1:16:41Speaker 04

  February. Yes, yes, twenty seven.

• 1:16:43Speaker 06

  When are the tickets out?

• 1:16:44Speaker 04

  They're out now. But it's also going to, February in Manchester, it goes all around the country then. I think Sadler's Wells in October, I think, come to Sadler's Wells. It's like, we'll do that.

• 1:16:54Speaker 06

  But I could come to Manchester because take my daughter.

• 1:16:57Speaker 04

  Oh, my God, yes.

• 1:16:58Speaker 06

  She'd love it. Russell, you are, you have single-handedly made the world a better place.

• 1:17:06Speaker 04

  Oh, stop it.

• 1:17:07Speaker 06

  No, Russell, you have. You make us feel seen.

• 1:17:11Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:17:12Speaker 06

  You make people who are on the outskirts, they feel on the fringes of life, feel part of.

• 1:17:19Speaker 04

  I hope so.

• 1:17:19Speaker 06

  You do good in the world. And please let us all be a bit more, Russell. Like, I really love you. And I knew you'd be this good, but you, you did not disappoint me.

• 1:17:33Speaker 04

  Thank you. That's a great relief.

• 1:17:35Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:17:36Speaker 04

  I would hate to face your wolf. That'd be terrifying, I think.

• 1:17:39Speaker 06

  Even me pissed off is quite a softie, really. Like, really. But thank you. Thanks so much for coming.

• 1:17:44Speaker 04

  We haven't had a job for a while now. I knew we'd go on today.

• 1:17:47Speaker 06

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:17:48Speaker 04

  And, and you are just, you do, you do great things in the world. You're just a joy and a presence and a boom.

• 1:17:55Speaker 06

  Love you right back.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  Thank you, darling.

• 1:17:57Speaker 06

  Russell T Davies, everyone.

• 1:18:00Speaker 04

  Hey.

• 1:18:02Speaker 06

  Sit down. I'm going to squeeze you on the floor.

• 1:18:06Speaker 06

  So just in case you missed this episode here, if you loved today's episode, I know you're going to love that one. That one. There.

• 1:18:21Speaker 00

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