Jake Humphrey: “I Ate My Lunch Alone” Childhood Bullying, Forgiveness & Being A Girl Dad!

Do the moments that feel like they’re breaking you actually shape who you’re meant to become? In this episode of Begin Again, Davina McCall sits down with broadcaster, author, and entrepreneur Jake Humphrey for an honest conversation about failure, bullying, masculinity, fatherhood and learning to define success differently. Jake opens up about the loneliness of being bullied at school, failing his A-levels and being told by the BBC, “we don’t employ people like you”, experiences that ultimately helped shape his extraordinary broadcasting career. He also reflects on the pressures facing men today, why he believes young men are being led towards dark corners of the internet, and how empathy, vulnerability and honest conversations can offer a different vision of masculinity. From the powerful influence of his father to becoming a dad himself, Jake shares what parenting has taught him about being present, letting children fail, prioritising what really matters and creating a safe space for them to talk. This is a hopeful conversation about resilience, parenting, masculinity, success and discovering that most of life’s hardest moments lead us towards something extraordinary. 🌟Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm Follow Jake Humphrey here: https://www.instagram.com/jakehumphrey/ Buy Jake's new book 'Game Plan' at https://dk.com/products/9780241734445-game-plan?_pos=2&_psq=gamepl&_psid=5929c8573&_ss=e/ We'd love you to share your Get Busy Living stories with us at https://getbusyliving.beginagainshow.com/ (00:00) Intro (01:10) Why Service Matters (07:23) Learning From Older Generations (09:59) How Bullying Shaped Him (17:11) Garnier Ad (19:04) Monzo GBL Ad (20:33) From Kids’ TV to Sport (24:27) His Grandmother’s Suicide (27:07) Failing His O-Levels (31:10) His Take on the Manosphere (39:51) Monzo 90 Days Ad (41:00) British Heart Foundation Ad (45:13) The Joy of Being a Dad (46:54) What Really Matters in Life (54:19) A Letter From His Daughter (58:02) Embracing Embarrassment Sponsored by: Garnier Nutrisse: UK's NO1 hair dye, chosen by 2 million women. Davina is shade 5 Mocha Brown. Find yours: www.garnier.co.uk/our-brands/hair-colour/nutrisse-creme Monzo: Results from the 2024 Lost Pensions Survey by the Pensions Policy Institute. The value of your pension could go up or down and you could get back less than you put in. You need a free Monzo current account to open a Monzo pension. Download Monzo. Monzo Current Accounts are for 18-70 years old only and UK residents. Ts&Cs Apply. Join the 'Say Yes Club' and hear more about our events here - https://events.beginagainshow.com/ British Heart Foundation: To help fund lifesaving research, visit https://bhf.org.uk/keepusbeating to donate now and keep us beating. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:30Speaker 04

  How did I dismiss that moment so much? Oh, that's the hardest part.

• 1:34Speaker 05

  Tell everybody what happened.

• 1:36Speaker 04

  I never thought a kid from a little village in Norfolk would be traveling the world, working in Formula One.

• 1:41Speaker 05

  Why?

• 1:41Speaker 04

  I was a late developer, Davina. I'd failed my exams at school, I was being bullied, and I was fired from McDonald's. But if you keep trying, almost everything that you need is already within you.

• 1:49Speaker 05

  Oh my God, Jake!

• 1:51Speaker 04

  So in the end, you're presenting the Premier League, the Champions League, you've got like 300 staff, you've got two kids, a happy marriage. But I felt like none of it mattered. I loved my wife, my kids, but I felt like I was getting everything wrong. On the outside, you would have looked at my life and thought, God, that is amazing. But I was lost in this little world. I felt so out of kilter.

• 2:11Speaker 05

  We've actually got something for you. I'll give you that, and I'm gonna ask you to read it out to us.

• 2:15Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 2:20Speaker 05

  Would you read it to us?

• 2:26Speaker 04

  Daddy...

• 2:29Speaker 05

  Jake Humphrey.

• 2:32Speaker 05

  I want to start by saying, I'm gonna intro you, I think, as a brilliant example of a great man.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 2:42Speaker 05

  And I'd quite like to deep dive into your upbringing, because your parents had such an amazing impact on who you are as a person. Your dad in particular, I think. Tell me a bit about your dad.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, oh, I mean, my dad is on every level of my hero. I felt really sad, actually, because last year Eddie Jordan passed away, who I worked with in Formula One.

• 3:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, he was like a father figure.

• 3:05Speaker 04

  He was like a father figure to me. And, you know, because Eddie was well-known, obviously, there's a lot of media around him, and I was asked, on the day that I got the news he died, actually, I got asked to go and do an interview on Radio 5 Live. And it was, it was only a throwaway comment, but my mom said to me, and it hurt a bit, she said to me a couple of days later, she goes, "Oh, Dad was wondering if you'd even say such nice things about him." And I think he'd heard me talking about Eddie and thought, "I wonder if I've had that impact." So can I just be absolutely clear, my dad absolutely has had that impact on me.

• 3:36Speaker 05

  Can I just say, that's really sweet.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  I know. But I think that we do worry, don't we, about the impact we have on our kids? And we kind of...

• 3:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  I can imagine my dad, like, son of a farmer from Whitsbeach in the Fens in the UK, who, you know, grafted all his life with a real care for other people and was a charity worker his whole life. I can imagine that he would look at what I shared with EJ, traveling the world, working in Formula One, experiencing things that I never thought a kid from a little village in Norfolk would ever experience. And then it's natural for him to go, "I wonder where my impact lies here." And so I'm so pleased you've asked me about my dad, because I wanted to realize that the impact he's had on me is more than he will ever know, and I like that. You know, it's, he can think that he's had an impact, he doesn't really realize.

• 4:24Speaker 04

  And he deserves so much praise for what he did, because he was the son of a farmer. But my dad had a calling to do something different. So when he was a teen, 18, 19, he left Whitsbeach to work on the kibbutz, right, in Israel.

• 4:40Speaker 05

  Oh, wow.

• 4:41Speaker 04

  And left home to go and pursue that dream. And then my granddad, his dad, was going to a wedding. So he went and bought a mourning suit, and he went to show his brother, who, they were farmers, they were brother farmers. And there was a potato picker there, and his brother had taken the guard off the potato picker. And as my granddad said, "Look at the top hat and tails I've bought for this wedding," the potato picker caught the back of the tails of his jacket and pulled him into the machine. This is in the 1960s. And if you know how a potato picker works, your bases snapped him in half.

• 5:13Speaker 05

  Oh, God.

• 5:14Speaker 04

  I know. So, you know, thank God he wasn't killed, but his back was broken.

• 5:20Speaker 05

  Oh, my God.

• 5:21Speaker 04

  And then he ended up in a wheelchair for life. Now, in those days, you were given like a 10, 10 years to live if you were paraplegic. So obviously, the first thing my dad did was come home, live with his mom and dad again, helped his dad, served. And I think we can talk a bit about the power of service. We live so much within ourselves, and how do we feel, and how am I doing? Like, as soon as you stop looking inside and look outside.

• 5:42Speaker 05

  The power of service.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 05

  I love that.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, if people are listening to this with anxiety, or a lack of self-worth, or have question marks about their place in society, feeling like they're not enough, feeling like a letdown, go and do something. Go and volunteer at an animal shelter. Take some food around for someone that isn't very well. Be of service to other people, and then see if you still feel like you have a lack of self-worth, or a lack of focus, or a lack of, you don't know your place in society. There's so much good to be found in service. And we live in a society that doesn't promote service.

• 6:17Speaker 05

  No, it doesn't.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  We live in a society that promotes wealth.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  Self.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  And greed, and collection of things. And all of those simply add to your anxiety. Whereas a life of service, I think, great if it was when you give a good Christmas present. It's that about every day. So my dad came back to Whitsbeach and served his parents, as I feel we all should. And, and this is something else that I'd love to talk to you about at some point, because you've had such an interesting and fascinating life. And I hope that you're able to look back on your life, including all of the hard times, and realize that they were hard for you, that they weren't bad for you.

• 6:58Speaker 05

  Exactly that.

• 6:59Speaker 04

  Some of the greatest things come from the hardest moments. So the only reason we're sitting here having this conversation today is that my dad came home, met my mom, who was living locally, they got married, they had kids. One of those kids was me, and here we are having a conversation. So if my granddad doesn't break his back, I don't sit here today.

• 7:22Speaker 05

  Oh, God, actually, when you say it like that, that is quite mad.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  I know. And sometimes, like, there's almost, you sometimes you feel a bit guilty, because you think the hardest, worst thing that he would have ever gone through, laying in that hospital bed. And actually, my dad had, me and my dad had a lovely moment just recently, because my dad had a new hip. And he came around from the operation, and it was probably a bit of the drugs and everything. But my dad, for the first time in a long time, was really, like, open and emotional, and was telling me, and you've been through operations recently, he was telling me all about these things in his life. And he's, and the reason why he felt like that was because he, because of the operation, he couldn't feel his legs. And he said for the first time ever...

• 8:00Speaker 05

  Knew how it's done.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  I knew how my dad would have felt in that moment. And then he said, "Not once did my dad ever moan." There was two things. He said, "Not once did my dad question why him." He said the second thing, he said, "My grandma went every single day to visit him at the, at the hospital, at the James Page, I think it was. Every single day, every single day, a different person from the village drove her to the hospital." My dad was like, "You did talk about service." Because everyone loved my granddad, John, John Humphrey.

• 8:32Speaker 05

  God, that is really...

• 8:33Speaker 04

  That was my dad.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  I mean, you're right, I, when, if I go back and think about my life, I wouldn't change any of it.

• 8:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:39Speaker 05

  I would relive my same life all over again, because at 58, I am the happiest I've ever been. And that is because I've lived the life I've lived, you know? I know you moved, didn't you, when you were eight or nine?

• 8:54Speaker 04

  Yeah. I was born in 1978, and we moved in 1987, so I would have been about nine years old. Yeah, we went from Peterborough to Norwich.

• 9:01Speaker 05

  To Norwich, and it was quite a hard move for you, wasn't it? Why was that difficult?

• 9:05Speaker 04

  Well, on the funny side, it was a hard move, because we couldn't find a house, so we ended up moving into one of my dad's old people's homes. Now, that was great. I was taught to smoke a pipe and play pool after school at 10 years of age.

• 9:17Speaker 05

  Wait, wait, you lived in an old people's home?

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's an old people's home called Ethel Tippel Court in Norwich.

• 9:22Speaker 05

  Ethel Tippel Court. That is such a great name for an old people's home.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  Isn't it? I think Ethel Tippel had left some money to create a residential home. And we couldn't find any way to live, and there was a kind of a house attached to it. So we lived in the house with my sister Rachel, my brother Tom, and my mom and dad. And after school, it was like, I had the run of the old people's home. Now, you imagine how much they loved it.

• 9:42Speaker 05

  But they must have...

• 9:43Speaker 04

  There's a kid knocking about.

• 9:45Speaker 05

  But also, Jake, it's service, without you even realizing.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely, without realizing, yeah.

• 9:51Speaker 05

  You're giving a beautiful gift.

• 9:53Speaker 04

  And I created a cool relationship with a guy.

• 9:56Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, go on.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  An old man, who, I'd see him after, now, you know, like, you, memories are weird, aren't they? I don't know whether I did this five times or 500 times.

• 10:05Speaker 05

  Right.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  But I remember being in this tiny room, it's knocked down now, the old people's home. You'd go in through the door, and you'd go to the far corner, and there was like a games room. But all it actually was, was a room with a pool table in, and this strong thug of pipe smoke. And this old boy was in there, and I'd chat to him about my day at school, and I'd play pool with him. I'm only 10, I'm playing pool against this old boy, and he's smoking a pipe, and I'm sharing his pipe. And I'm like, "Life lessons, right? I'm getting to know this old guy." And then you also have to learn, because they, they don't live as long as you. So you then have to cope with the emotion of losing these people.

• 10:41Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  So that was, that was a really fascinating period. It didn't last very long, less than a year, and then we moved into our own house.

• 10:48Speaker 05

  That's quite a long time, though.

• 10:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was cool. It's a great, like, it's a great memory.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  I mean, I think we've forgotten a little bit.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  No, we're just dismissive. We're dismissive of that generation, because we're doing far more exciting and wonderful things. We forget, like...

• 11:04Speaker 04

  They created all this. They've done all this before. And as the population ages and as there are more elderly people alive, we definitely have to lean into what we can learn from the older generation. I actually love it when I come across on Instagram or TikTok accounts where it is, like the older generation, people in their eighties and nineties, sharing life advice. And it always does great numbers and you're like, good. I love that as well. So we moved to Norwich, lived in the old people's home, moved out. And then I had a tough, definitely had a tough time at school.

• 11:35Speaker 05

  Why?

• 11:37Speaker 04

  Well, because all of the friendship groups had been created.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  Right.

• 11:41Speaker 04

  And I was trying to, I was trying to sort of like find my way in. And then, and then you can't. So then I probably acted like a bit of a dick trying to, trying to find my way in, you know, just being over the top. But it's so hard as a young person, isn't it? Like what do you do when, when you're not having the impact that you want to have?

• 12:01Speaker 05

  I thought it was interesting. I heard you say once that you'd got called into school or your dad, your parents had been called into school about you not quite fitting in and that they'd found your emotional intelligence threatening.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was a brilliant teacher called Mr. Pugh.

• 12:20Speaker 04

  And I moved to school. So like the bullying was awful. Like if anyone has been bullied, they will relate to the fact that you could be almost fifty, as I am, and still remember the feeling. Like the loneliness, like it's hard, isn't it? And I don't know whether, did you, were you bullied at school?

• 12:38Speaker 05

  For being different, because I lived with my granny and my grandad.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  And when you would drop your kids off at school, could you remember the feeling as they walked off?

• 12:46Speaker 05

  Oh yeah. I mean, I tried very hard not to transfer it on to them.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  Because my fear was great. And a couple of my kids had a tough time at school, but they dealt with it brilliantly. And.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  School can be very cruel.

• 13:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, but, but they've learnt a lot from it.

• 13:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 05

  And that's what's interesting. And also, I think finding solid friendships after you have had problems making friends. You, you are so kind of close to your mates because you've got them like, you're like, oh my god.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Yeah. You're so right.

• 13:22Speaker 05

  Yeah. So that, that was, how did you kind of cope with it?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  I don't think I coped with it very well, apart from just sealing myself off. So one time we were getting changed after swimming. And as I took my swimming trunks off, the guys pushed me out of the changing room with no clothes on and no towel, but out into the school car park where there were classrooms sort of all looking. So I'm standing there with, like, just trying to preserve my own dignity, covering off the bits I could with the hands I had. And when that happens, it becomes like a whole school thing.

• 14:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:03Speaker 04

  My mum spoke to the head teacher at the school I was at, and they decided to ask me to stand up in assembly and announce to the school that I was being bullied, and they had to stop.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Can you imagine what that did?

• 14:14Speaker 05

  Oh god.

• 14:15Speaker 04

  So in the end, there was these two school coaches parked in the car park. And I just used to go between the coaches in the dark at break and lunch break and just eat my sandwiches and wait for lunch break to end. And then, once everyone's in their classrooms, scurry back in.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Heartbreaking actually, when you think about it.

• 14:35Speaker 05

  And did that persist all the way through?

• 14:37Speaker 04

  I basically had to leave. So I did two years at that school and I left for, for another school and it was so much better. And the point that you make about the emotional intelligence, after I'd changed schools, my parents were talking to my then form tutor called Mr. Pugh. And you know when you just connect with a teacher?

• 14:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  I loved Mr. Pugh, really connected with him. Him and Mr. Maxwell were like, changed the game for me at school. And my mum and dad once said to him, like, what do you think is going on? Or why has there been problems? And he just said, Jacob, as I was known then, Jacob, just has an emotional intelligence that most twelve-year-old boys are not really connected to. And I think that was probably what is causing the problem there. They feel threatened by his ability to be real. And I do think that that's probably what's given me the career that I've had.

• 15:27Speaker 05

  Totally, yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  What I would like people to understand is that if you're being bullied right now or your child is being bullied, it's always because they're finding a point of difference. Like they found with you, you lived with a grandparent, great opportunity for bullying. Like with me, emotional intelligence, great opportunity to bully someone. I can't tell you how important it is to not allow those bullies to knock that part of you out of you. Because as you get older, as you leave school, as you embark on a career and a life, the thing that gives you the most magic in your life is the thing that is making you different to everybody else. And I think if you lose that at school, it's a real tragedy. Because the real world would reward you for being unique and for being different

• 16:12Speaker 04

  and having a different point of view. Look at everyone that's ever changed the world. They just saw the world in a different way. If that gets knocked out of you at an early age, it's a real tragedy.

• 16:22Speaker 05

  You've talked a lot about failing. And I was quite surprised. I've always just thought you had just kind of a quite simple rise

• 16:32Speaker 05

  through television and stuff, but I was quite surprised to see all the hurdles that you had to jump over to get to where you're going.

• 16:39Speaker 04

  I was trying to be a successful TV presenter and trying to make my mark. And, you know, kids TV is a competitive environment, right?

• 16:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was really interested to see you talk about that and say it was like the most competitive environment you'd ever been. How?

• 16:54Speaker 04

  Well, because everybody is there wanting to take the next step. I mean, for a start, you're all young, right? So you're all kind of between eighteen and twenty-two, twenty-three. All of you are kind of a bit high on your own supply because you end up as a kids TV presenter. And maybe if you're young people growing up now, like you want to be a YouTuber, right? Or you want to be an influencer, that you know that when we were growing up, being a kids TV presenter was the thing.

• 17:15Speaker 05

  Was it? Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  So to land that job at like twenty, twenty, twenty-one years of age, as I was, getting that job was everything until you got that job. And then just getting it was a distraction for the next thing. And we all live our lives like this. We all want this big thing that's on the horizon. And the minute you get that big thing, that's now a distraction because you've already got it and it's all about the next thing. And we give ourselves no time to actually stop and go.

• 17:37Speaker 05

  Enjoy it.

• 17:38Speaker 04

  I did this. This is fantastic. So with Children's BBC, you arrive. And within six months of arriving, it's like, right, who's going to be the person that gets the BBC One work rather than the children's BBC channel work? Who's going to be the person that gets Saturday morning kids telly? Who's going to be the person that might be asked to audition for Blue Peter? And then who's going to be the person that starts to get opportunities to do other things, like outside of, outside of Children's BBC? And so it creates this like hyper competitive environment where everybody wants to be successful. And the only way to be successful is for the other people not to be successful. And I think it creates quite a toxic environment where it's, it is just hyper competitive. But also like, you're all so close to who you used to be

• 18:22Speaker 04

  that it kind of, it means you go harder at it. So like, what I mean by that is like, I've probably forgotten actually how it felt to be twenty years old and living in Norwich, you know, having been a failure at school. Whereas then I knew exactly how that felt and I was very determined not to go back there.

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  So our energy is free to say yes to more things in life. Monzo current accounts for UK residents aged 16 plus.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 22:32Speaker 07

  Stonefire naan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  Stonefire naan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap. I love making naan grilled cheese. Is that okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 22:53Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire naan with your friends like this friendly Wolverine.

• 22:58Speaker 07

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we naan.

• 23:03Speaker 05

  Then, you know, you pivot brilliantly. So this opportunity didn't happen, but you pivot somewhere else. You, you have then got into sports in such a major way.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:17Speaker 05

  Talk to me quickly about your time on F1 because that did sound completely magical.

• 23:22Speaker 04

  Yes, it was, Davina, it was. It was magical. I mean, it was a total shock for me to get that job, right? So I was working on kids TV at the time. And I, I don't remember when, but I knew I wanted to be a sports presenter. I knew that like Des Lynam was like the hero for me back in the day. So I, I knew I wanted to be the new Des Lynam. So I went to see the guys at BBC Sport and I met the head of, head of talent.

• 23:45Speaker 05

  So wait, so did you kind of say, right, I want to come and meet you guys?

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  You facilitated that.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right.

• 23:50Speaker 05

  So well done.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, thank you. And so I, I knew I wanted to be a sports presenter and I asked for a meeting and I met with the head of talent. And they said, like, tell me about your, your qualifications and you do have a degree in journalism, which what they, which is what they were looking for at the time. And I was like, I don't. And then I told her the story of me getting an E, an N and a U for my three A levels, thinking that she would think it's funny that I'd failed my exams at school. But it, this is like BBC Sport, you know, 20 years ago. It just sort of created a frown more than anything. And then she said, but obviously if you've played sport to a professional standard, we can also consider you. And I was like, well, I played one game of football for the school football team. Ha, ha, ha.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  And she then said to me, she said, I saw you were hosting a mobster lobster this morning. And our mobster lobster was a thing that we filmed in the Blue Peter Garden. I mean, I do remember like this being a time of freedom, like it was fun, you know? I'd dress up as a lobster. I'd wear these big like foam claws with pins in, and I'd run around the Blue Peter Garden popping balloons with foam in them. And if the caller got a small starfish, it was five points and a big starfish, it was 10 points. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? But they said, I saw you hosting mobster lobster this morning. And I know it was like a pointed dig of like, that's your thing. And then they leant forwards and said, BBC Sport, don't employ people like you.

• 25:17Speaker 04

  I'm like a kid from a little village in Norfolk trying to shoot his shot here. And I was like, but you know what? And I firmly believe this. When I go back to the bullying, being fired from McDonald's.

• 25:33Speaker 05

  Wait, that's a good one. We haven't actually properly talked about that. I mean, being fired from McDonald's, what, tell everybody why that happened. I'm like a school teacher. Jake, tell everyone what you did to get fired from McDonald's.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  Well, it's what I didn't do, I think. I mean, they said a lack of communication skills.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  I can't like, I literally can't think of a greater communicator than you.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Well, I was fucking chips. I remember at the time I was thinking, I'm just literally cooking chips on an eight hour shift here. I don't know how, like, who am I meant to communicate with? And it was kind of like funny. I remember my dad wrote them a letter and said, this is really hard for my boy.

• 26:09Speaker 05

  Did he?

• 26:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, isn't that lovely? And

• 26:11Speaker 05

  He stuck up for you.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, he did. And I love that actually.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  But still let me deal with it myself, but did, did write to them and say, come on. And actually I saw, I then got a job in a, a local hotel as a waiter, which I absolutely loved. And my manager at the time, I saw him in a petrol station not long ago. And he said, how are you getting on? I love watching your career. I thought, oh, thanks so much, Ray. He said, I remember when you first arrived, every day you'd ask me whether you're going to get fired.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  I said, did I? I have no memory of this. He's like, yeah, yeah. You were so worried that you were going to lose your job. Every shift you'd come to me and say, have I done a good enough job? Am I going to lose my job? I was 18. And I'm like, Ray, thank you so much, mate, for giving me the confidence because that is a memory that I've removed from my brain. I don't remember that, that moment at all. But obviously it was bothering me at the time.

• 27:02Speaker 04

  And then we, we also, you know, we can talk in detail if you wish. My, I lost my grandma to suicide around this time, which was tricky.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Just explain what, why, because it was after your grandfather died.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we've spoken about.

• 27:15Speaker 05

  But I mean, this is just so, so lovely. I talked, I talked to Michael about this when I, when I read that, about the love of someone that life's not worth living when you lose the love of your life. God, it was just so, must have been so difficult to lose both grandparents. So close together, but, but also weirdly comforting that she, she was with him, you know?

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Yes. And like, really amazing that she loved him so much that she didn't want to be without him. But very difficult though for the people that are left behind who feel that they're,

• 27:53Speaker 05

  Does that.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  That they're not enough.

• 27:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  And it was interesting, actually, you know, I mentioned my dad had his hip operation when he was kind of coming around from that. And we were having this really deep chat about my grandma. He said, he said, you know, she came to say goodbye to us all.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  And I was like, did she? And then I have this memory of her coming to our house that weekend. And you know, like you're a young kid and you're lost in your own world. I was revising for my A levels and she came to see us. And I had zero idea, honestly, no idea. It was just for me, another visit from grandma on the weekend, which was not uncommon. But I was working upstairs and she came past the door and she said, hi, love. I said, hi grandma. She goes, don't think I can go on.

• 28:41Speaker 04

  And I went, of course you can. And then carried on working as you do. And I don't think I could have changed the outcome here, right? But you do wonder afterwards, you're like, God, why, why was I living such a, like a, how did I dismiss that moment so much?

• 29:02Speaker 04

  And that was at the weekend. And then on the Tuesday, we were having a family dinner. My dad had kind of called from his brother to say, can you come? And we think something's happened to mum. And sadly, they, she lived in, in a lovely farmhouse in Wisbech and at the end was a, a ditch at the end of the road. And my dad arrived and she was getting taken out of the ditch. Now, my dad, that was very hard for him and he went into a really

• 29:27Speaker 05

  Did he?

• 29:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just closed up, I think, for a few years, which is really very understandable, you know, the love of his life, yeah.

• 29:38Speaker 04

  So that was tough. And it was only a few weeks after she passed away that I did my A level exams. Um, and I definitely don't think that I failed them because of that. I thought I was a late developer, Davina. I was like,

• 29:55Speaker 04

  I was just chilled. Like, I look at my kids now, they're always doing things, always busy, always got interests. I honestly went to school, came home, watched like Danger Mouse, ate my tea and went to bed. Great cartoon. But I was like, I was just floating. I really was just floating. And I have to give huge credit to my parents for not push, push, push. Like, they allowed me to be in this period and just find my own way.

• 30:22Speaker 04

  So I then, I then went to get my A level results. And I remember opening my first envelope and it was an E. And I thought, well, if I get two As, I've still got my place at uni. I mean, how ridiculous. And then I got an N and a U. So I got E and U for my three A levels. But you know how we've spoken about, um,

• 30:41Speaker 04

  like, things that are hard and not necessarily bad? And the fact that I wouldn't even be here if my grandfather hadn't had his tragic accident in the sixties. I would also, even if I, even if that had happened and I was there, and I'd passed my A levels, I also wouldn't be sitting here talking to you.

• 30:57Speaker 05

  No.

• 30:58Speaker 04

  Because I went, I had to go back to school and do another year, which again was building my resilience because I'm in a classroom with a load of kids that are younger than me and I'm having to kind of just accept the fact that I'm with these kids.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  And the day that I went back, a local TV channel wrote to the school to ask if kids studying politics would like to go on to a TV show and talk about politics. And I went into the nice, and the funny thing is I turned up twenty four hours early. Like, I turned up at like four o'clock and this girl came down and greeted me and I said, hi, I'm here to do the audition for being on the politics show. And she said, that's tomorrow. And I'm like, great start, Jake. And then I just said, look, my mates have gone off and joined the military. They've gone off to uni, they've had a gap year, they've got a job.

• 31:41Speaker 04

  That's not my story because I've just messed up all my exams. Is there any chance I could come and work here on the weekends and do some work experience? So I used to go to this place called Rapture Television on a Saturday and a Sunday, all day. And I would move sets around, answer phones, operate the autocue, work with the sound man, move prizes about, get cups of tea, whatever needed to be done. At least to pay me five pounds cash for working Saturday and Sunday. Then, the, like, because they had no money, we all had to do bits of presenting. And I just, as soon as I put an earpiece on and started doing this on a live TV show, like, no viewers, cable telly.

• 32:19Speaker 05

  Perfect.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  Like, no one watching.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  Perfect.

• 32:21Speaker 04

  Great place to make your mistakes. I found it easy. And there was people crying because they were anxious about going on or getting things wrong. And I was like, why is this such a big deal? Like, this is so simple to me. And then one of the presenters left and the guy, the producer came to me and said, look, would you like to host the show? It was a three hour live show on a Sunday. Yeah. And he goes, we'll double your money. Ten pounds cash. One day a guy said, you know, you should make a show reel. What's one of those? Cut together the best bits of my presenting, sent it to London, it was seen by someone at the BBC, ended up doing little bits on, as like a reporter for some TV shows on Children's BBC.

• 33:00Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 33:00Speaker 04

  And then in two thousand and two, they created the CBBC channel. And three of the people in the meeting had received my show and all three of them went, I think this guy would be good. And that's how I ended up on kids' telly and then F1 and then football and then sitting here with you. So again, like, we need to not tell people that failure is bad and success is good. That failure in my A levels was the greatest thing that has, that has arguably happened in my, in my career. Fantastic. I'm so pleased it happened.

• 33:27Speaker 05

  And I think as parents, it's important, it's not just important for kids to hear that message, but it's important for parents to hear that message. Don't stress or fret about your kid's journey. It's just their journey. They'll get there in the end.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 33:41Speaker 05

  I'd like to talk to you about the manosphere.

• 33:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 33:44Speaker 05

  And how, how hard it is. I think what's been interesting, it's been brewing for a long time, I think.

• 33:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  That young men and older men and boys are, have lost their way. And society is feeding so much conflicting information to what it is to be a man.

• 34:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  And how to be a good man. And it was a very basic, um, set of rules in like the forties and fifties.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 05

  You know, for my grandparents, I grew up with my grandparents, stay at home wife and mum, man works. And that was that, like, you know, nobody, no women really worked then. And then we've all wanted to kind of become a bit more independent. And then I think through women becoming stronger and being more independent and then feminism and, which has all been a good thing. It's complicated being a man now and how to find your feet.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  It is. And I think that as men, we're, we're still kind of struggling with the traditional patriarchy, right? It's also a patriarchy that a lot of people, and me included, don't feel that we belong to.

• 34:58Speaker 05

  No.

• 34:58Speaker 04

  Sometimes we feel like we're being judged or spoken about in a way that we don't even relate to those men from a previous generation. And that's not to criticize those men from a previous generation because they were living by the rules that were set for them. You know, if we all were living hundreds of years ago, we would all have very different views about the world, most of which wouldn't be accepted today. But that's not to criticize that period, it's to understand that period. So how, when your question was, how have I got to be the man I am today?

• 35:28Speaker 04

  By not having an opinion, I think is probably the answer.

• 35:31Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  Opinion is the lowest form of knowledge, right?

• 35:34Speaker 05

  What do you mean by that?

• 35:36Speaker 04

  For us to have an opinion doesn't, doesn't need us to understand the other person. Yet we've, we live in a society that promotes opinion all the time. It's all about having a strong opinion. If you have a strong opinion, then you get voted as the president of the United States. If you have a strong opinion, then the algorithm will pick up the content that you create. If you have a strong opinion, then you can appeal to people in the extremities. If you have a strong opinion, then you can create a following. Now that's dangerous when the people with an opinion are causing devastating effects for the people that start to follow them. So what we have to do is stop promoting a culture where we reward opinions and start creating a culture where we reward people for empathy.

• 36:20Speaker 04

  A strong man is an empathetic man, a caring, understanding man. And then there'll be people that go, well, that's not what a man is. But that is the, that's the strongest thing you can be is empathetic because you can nurture, you can protect, you can love, you can provide, you can be vulnerable, you can make mistakes. You can be all of those things that I think makes you a great man. I think masculinity is something to celebrate. Like, when we talk about toxic masculinity, I really worry about the message that that sends, particularly young men growing up today.

• 36:55Speaker 05

  It's like saying masculinity is toxic.

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Of course it, of course it links the two. Absolutely. And there is scientific research and psychological research that says the conversation around toxic masculinity damages the mental strength of young men.

• 37:09Speaker 05

  I agree with that completely.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  So what we actually have to do is give young men credit for the world on which they're growing up in. But also I think that we have to be really clear about what's actually happening here. And what I think is happening with the conversation around the manosphere is that we're treating a minority like a majority.

• 37:27Speaker 05

  Yes. Just please expand on that because that's such an important point to make.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  I have a son, I have a dad, I am a man. I host a podcast that a lot of men listen to. I speak to a lot of men in my everyday life. They are good people. They are caring, kind, thoughtful, compassionate, considerate, loving, brilliant people. Please don't let society and let media and let social media and let narratives tell us

• 38:02Speaker 04

  that we have millions and millions and millions of people following dangerous male influencers and poor male role models. I don't, I don't believe that. I absolutely think that the messages from the likes of HS Tiki Taki and Andrew Tate and some of the ways in which we see the likes of Elon Musk and Donald Trump lead countries and businesses, I definitely think a lot of that is toxic. I don't like a lot of the things that I see from David Goggins, who seems to feel like he has to punish himself to be valued. I don't like listening to Joe Rogan. I don't think that the way they talk and the way they converse and the messages that they put out there are healthy.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  But I also don't believe that the majority of men are bad. I think men are incredible. I think they're definitely trying to find their way in the world today. I think that it's a confusing time for a lot of men.

• 38:56Speaker 05

  It is, isn't it?

• 38:58Speaker 04

  But I think that what we need to do is

• 39:02Speaker 04

  Is leaning to each other and leaning to opening up more. It's so hard because the answer is the one thing that men don't do enough of. The answer is conversations like this. The answer is groups of men coming together. The answer is-

• 39:17Speaker 05

  How can you do that? How can you get that to happen?

• 39:19Speaker 04

  You have to just start it. You have to just start the conversation. And that's what I've- And it's actually really interesting because, you know, high performance, we have a lot of male guests. And we have a lot of conversations that I know will appeal to men. And we have a male listenership or viewership of probably 60 to 70% male. And that garners some criticism. I sometimes get into it and people go, "Why is there so many men on your show?" And I will never apologize for having conversations on high performance that feel it gives men the opportunity to open up and be themselves. Because men are killing themselves at an alarming rate. You know, men are struggling inside and unable to tell anyone.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  And if I can just create a platform that gives them the opportunity to be seen and to be heard. And every day, every single day, I get messages saying, "I'm really struggling. I've got issues in my personal life or issues in my work. And the things that you talk about have really helped." Then I'm delighted. And I think that we have this impression that if you're going to be successful, you have to be a certain type of guy. It has to be all about productivity. It has to be all about punishing yourself for success. It has to be all about wealth. It has to be all about showing off. It has to be all about accumulating things. You know, I've had a really good broadcasting career. I've created one of the biggest production companies in Europe.

• 40:45Speaker 04

  I've created a podcast that's listened to by hundreds of millions of people over the last few years. You can do all of that with empathy, with care, with understanding, with emotion, with connection. It's not that you've got over here the kind of powerful, hyper masculine manosphere, successful guys. And then you've got all these meek, quiet, low achieving men that don't really belong in the world. It's not true. You can be a great guy and massively successful by connecting to other people.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  I think the hardest thing though is that someone like me, who has had perceived success, I can sit here and talk to you about my emotions. I can tell you about the times I've failed. I can be vulnerable and open. And I think the problem is we've created a world where I've earned the right to talk like this because I've been successful. Well, I'm actually probably the last person that needs to do this. The people that do need to do this are those people that haven't been successful, that are struggling, that no one is listening to them, that feel like a failure, that can't hold down a job, that haven't got a career, that can't have long term, strong relationships with people. They're the men that need to be given the opportunity to speak up. They're the men that society doesn't want to hear from. They want to hear from the successful people because they've been successful.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  Therefore, their opinion is valid and their opinion isn't. That's a real problem. Everyone has an equal right to share how they're feeling. And if anything, the people who are really struggling are the ones that we need to give a platform to and give them an opportunity to share how they're feeling.

• 42:24Speaker 05

  There is an estimated 31.1 billion sitting in lost pension pots in the UK. 31.1 billion. This is me when I was at MTV. Remember that like it was yesterday. Did I have a pension? Who was it with? And do you know what? I couldn't tell you. And I suspect I'm not the only one. But the good news is Monzo, our sponsors, can help you find and combine yours. In partnership with their tracing provider, Raindrop, they are the only bank that offer this service for free. You tell them where you worked and when, and they do the searching for you. It's basically a private investigator for your pension. So far, more than 150,000 pensions worth over £900 million have been transferred into Monzo. That could be you.

• 43:09Speaker 05

  So download Monzo now and keep track of your pensions alongside the rest of your money. The value of your pension could go up or down, and you could get back less than you put in. You need a free Monzo current account to open a Monzo pension. 18 to 70 years old only. UK residents only. T's and C's apply. Right. I need women to listen to this sponsored message from British Heart Foundation. Because we are finally talking more about what happens to us during menopause. The sleep, the brain fog, the hormones, all of it. But we still don't talk nearly enough about our hearts. Cardiovascular disease is the biggest killer of women over 45 worldwide.

• 43:54Speaker 05

  And after menopause, the risk increases significantly. Now, please don't hear that and panic. I'm telling you this because I think women deserve to know about this. And because there are brilliant people working every day to do something about it. British Heart Foundation funds life-saving research into preventing, diagnosing, and treating women's cardiovascular disease. More research means more breakthroughs. And those breakthroughs can mean more time, more time to live, more time to start over, more time to begin again. To help fund life-saving research, please visit bhf.org.uk/keepusbeating. To donate now and keep us beating.

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 45:10Speaker 07

  Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap. I love making Knan grilled cheese. Is that guy okay? I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 45:31Speaker 03

  You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 45:35Speaker 07

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we Knan.

• 45:40Speaker 05

  It's quite interesting because you've talked about failure as being one of your greatest assets in a funny kind of way. And I was thinking about women are lucky in a way because our struggle of being a woman with periods and perimenopause and menopause and having children and giving birth and like the, you know, the kind of enormative that and what happens to hormones and the monthly struggle, you know, it's like it's big. But we all go through it. We can all relate to each other and we all get that it's, we're all on a kind of complicated journey of women's health. And it bonds us immediately.

• 46:20Speaker 05

  Whereas it feels competitive for men somehow that they've got to kind of prove-

• 46:28Speaker 04

  Oh, you're so right. You're so right. You know, what bonds us is exactly that. It's our ability to not speak and our ability to try and solve the world ourselves and the ability to cope and the ability to take it all on our shoulders and the ability to lie awake at night with a million things swimming through our brains that we can't possibly tell anybody because we feel that that will lead to them questioning whether we're a real man. It's a dangerous, it's a dangerous, dangerous way to think. And I think that actually the conversations around the manosphere where we talk about toxic masculinity or we talk about young men are all following the wrong people or the power that these social media influencers have.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  I think the real risk with that is that we don't stop. Like, we're very quick to label and criticize, right? But we don't stop to ask, how have these people ended up creating such a following? And how have the people who have followed them ended up following them? And it's no good just to say, "Well, they're bad people." It's not the truth. There was an issue somewhere that is leading young men to those dark corners of the internet. There's an issue somewhere that means that those people with those toxic opinions managed to find a following. I do not believe that it's the majority of men. I still believe it's the minority of men. But I also believe that instead of, how can I best put this?

• 47:55Speaker 04

  Instead of pulling men out of the river,

• 47:59Speaker 04

  we need to go upstream and find out why they're falling in.

• 48:01Speaker 05

  Yes. Can I just say something? You just said, I don't know how to put this, and then pulled out the greatest analogy I've ever had. You can't just like, you can't just grasp an analogy like that and just like slap it on the table. That's amazing. Go upstream and find out why they're falling in in the first place. That's exactly it.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. The answer here has to be leaning in with compassion. Finding why did you feel the need to go to that place?

• 48:32Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 48:32Speaker 04

  You know, I have a son and I, and I, and I fear that, um, unless he gets the right messages, he could easily end up there. He's the most magical, wonderful, caring,

• 48:43Speaker 05

  Tell me.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Kind, golden-hearted boy I've ever met in my life. Like, he's everything to me.

• 48:51Speaker 05

  Do you know why?

• 48:52Speaker 04

  Go on.

• 48:53Speaker 05

  Cause you're his dad.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  Ah, you're so kind. And it's the greatest job in the world.

• 48:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is, isn't it?

• 48:58Speaker 04

  Yes, it's the greatest job in the world. And I actually love being a girl dad. Oh my gosh. Like, the, the best times of my day is cause Seb falls asleep like that.

• 49:11Speaker 05

  Does he?

• 49:11Speaker 04

  Florence does not. The best time is when she's lying in bed and you go in and the brain starts to work.

• 49:18Speaker 05

  The chat.

• 49:19Speaker 04

  And she starts to share things and you're having the chat. And I know that's the point at which almost every parent goes, look, it's late. I haven't got the time. You know, I think, one thing I've really enjoyed about parenting is working out how to try and get it right. Because there is no manual right, is there? And when, and I've totally changed my opinion on parenting as well. I used to think that when your kid is badly behaved, they need telling off. Or when your kid is badly behaved, they're only badly behaved in front of someone that they trust to be badly behaved in front of. So of course you tell them the boundaries and you share what's going on, but you also understand that your child feels, feels safe enough to have an opinion. When they finish school and they're a bit quiet, or they're a little bit bolshy, or they're a bit dismissive of you,

• 50:04Speaker 04

  that they are just trying to process a whole day's worth of information. And the first time that they cannot be sitting up straight answering questions is in the car with you. So give them that moment. And at the end of the day, finally they can process all their thoughts and just try and share things. Um, and you know, Damien, the amazing Damien who I host high performance with. I remember when I was saying to him, I just feel like, um,

• 50:30Speaker 04

  a couple of years ago, I felt like I was getting everything wrong.

• 50:32Speaker 05

  What do you mean?

• 50:33Speaker 04

  Um, I felt like, on the outside, you would have looked at my life and thought, God, that is amazing.

• 50:40Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 50:41Speaker 04

  You're presenting the Premier League, the Champions League, you've had a great career behind you, high performance is doing well, you've created Whisper Group, which has got like three hundred staff, you've got two kids, a happy marriage, lovely dream house, you're living in Norfolk, where all your family are, what? I felt so out of kilter. I felt so, because I was not prioritising the right things. We actually had a guy come on the show called Shane Parrish. Have you interviewed Shane Parrish? You, you and him would get on like amazing. He created something called the Farnham Street Blog and, um, he, I, he's actually a productivity expert, but that doesn't do him any justice. Cause I think productivity is a bit of a dirty word now, right? But he's, I'd call him more a happiness expert. And I said how I feel to him. And he said, well, what do you love?

• 51:23Speaker 04

  And I said, well, I love my kids, my wife, and like a small amount of time to do like something for me. Have a game of paddle, take the dog for a walk, whatever it is. He said, cool. What sort of diary do you have? And I said, well, I use my phone. He goes, show me your diary. And I showed him my diary. He went through it and he said, well, where in your diary is there any time for Harriet, Flo and Seb or yourself? And I was like, listen, man, this is like, I'm not so embarrassed that I have to put time in my diary to be with my kids and my wife. That feels like a proper life fail. And he said, well, your wife and your kids and time for you is really important. He said, but life is full of urgent, urgent work issues, urgent conversations, urgent problems,

• 52:06Speaker 04

  urgent stuff that needs to be solved. And the urgent will always be the important.

• 52:10Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  So you have to prioritise the important. So at the start of every week, get your phone. And he called it pay yourself first. He said, put in a couple of moments with Harriet. You can still have more, but you make sure those two don't leave the diary. You go and do something with your kids a couple of times a week and they don't leave the diary. You go and play paddle and walk the dog twice a week and that doesn't leave the diary. It's as important as anything that's urgent. And that just transformed everything. I just like, I was like, oh my goodness. I now feel like I'm back in kilter. But I also felt a couple of years ago that I was just, I was getting it wrong with the kids. You know, I wasn't, I just wasn't quite, um, understanding that when they, at the end of the day, when they want to talk to you, that, that's their opportunity to open up and to process stuff. It can't just be about,

• 52:56Speaker 04

  go to sleep because we've got to get up tomorrow. Like, and I see a lot of like other families and it's like stressful all the time.

• 53:02Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Like stressful mornings, stressful after school, stressful to get your homework done, stressful to get to bed, stressful on the weekends, busy, busy, busy, busy. But this is it.

• 53:11Speaker 05

  I, I remember.

• 53:12Speaker 04

  If this is stressful, then you're, then something's wrong. Cause this is all you get.

• 53:16Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:17Speaker 04

  There isn't, you know.

• 53:18Speaker 05

  And then they leave home. I'm telling you, my, my August is nineteen.

• 53:21Speaker 04

  Been there.

• 53:22Speaker 05

  And, um, if you could go back and do it all again, you would, you know.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  But imagine how chilled you'd be if you now had a seven-year-old.

• 53:28Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 53:29Speaker 04

  And he'd come in your bed in the night. And there you go. And then you'd be like, yes, come in my bed in the night. Yes. Be late for school. Yes, let's go and make dens when we should be eating our breakfast. Like, none of it matters.

• 53:40Speaker 05

  None of it matters.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  None of it matters, you know?

• 53:43Speaker 05

  That's a great message as well, I think for parents listening.

• 53:46Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 53:47Speaker 05

  We spend so much time worrying and like we were talking about, you know, let them fail, let them, just none of it matters.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Because the, the great thing about failing obviously is ubiquitous in young people. The other great thing about failure early on in life is that you know those people at school and we were all at school with them that are just like flying. Everything is great.

• 54:06Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 54:07Speaker 04

  The risk with that, and if you've got a young person in your life where everything's easy, you need to try and find points of failure because otherwise they develop this idea that they're somehow special. That they've got the golden answer, that they know the, they know the secret to a successful life and no one does. And that's a really dangerous way to begin because you think you've got the answers. And then you get to twenty-one and realise you don't and you've got nowhere to turn to try and find them. You need to encourage a, a culture of searching for answers at a really young age, if you can.

• 54:38Speaker 05

  You're talking about being, um, a dad to a girl earlier and Flo just turned thirteen. Um, how's that for you? Because obviously heading into that, you, the relationship has to change a little bit. Like you've got to give them a bit more autonomy and freedom and.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um.

• 54:59Speaker 05

  Quite hard for a dad, I think.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, it is, it is hard for a dad. Um, I'm, cause I actually see Flo going more towards her mum now. Because like going shopping for clothes together is a really cool thing. Like going and sitting in a cafe as mother and daughter and having like a, a cool mother-daughter day is like a really lovely thing. And I'm fully aware that there are things that I have that are special with, with Sebastian. So I think as a dad, trying to find your role in this new era is quite interesting. I want to be her opportunity to really be her, like to really be herself. So I like the idea of like, you could close the bedroom door and you say, look, you've got a lot going on in your life. You've got a lot of friends to deal with and challenges and, you know, your body's changing and your emotions are changing.

• 55:45Speaker 04

  But when this door shuts and it's just the two of us, just tell me everything.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  Like everything.

• 55:51Speaker 05

  I'm a safe space.

• 55:52Speaker 04

  I'm a safe space. I mean, I've been over the top, over the top talking to her about periods, right? Because I don't want to be that dad.

• 55:59Speaker 05

  Healthy. Yeah. So good.

• 56:02Speaker 04

  You know, when it finally happens, she's sort of waiting for mum to come home before she can tell someone. Like I want, um, I just want her to feel free when she's with her dad. I want her to feel safe and protected. But more than that, I want her just to feel really free.

• 56:17Speaker 05

  I've got, I've got an amazing tip for you.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 56:19Speaker 05

  Somebody gave it to me when my kids were turning teenagers. And, um, it was about never say no to a teenager.

• 56:28Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 56:28Speaker 05

  Um, in fact, I'm seeing the girl who told me this tonight at the school union. Um, so never say no to a teenager means when they come down and they want to do something, go somewhere, go to a party, going out in not very many clothes and you're like not on your Nelly, wooda, you say, right, come to the negotiating table. So that's usually the kitchen table. And let's sit down and talk it through. So tell me why you want to do that. Okay. Well, I'm telling you why I'm a bit nervous. Can we negotiate on the outcome? And you give a bit and they give a bit.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  Brilliant.

• 57:05Speaker 05

  And then you come to an agreement and nobody ever walks out of the room and says, I hate you and slams the door.

• 57:10Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:10Speaker 05

  It's always like, thanks. And I say, thanks for giving me a bit.

• 57:15Speaker 04

  Oh, it's brilliant that.

• 57:16Speaker 05

  It's so good.

• 57:17Speaker 04

  Why I think that's so good is because I, I look at Florence and see a six-year-old.

• 57:23Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  And she's not.

• 57:25Speaker 05

  No.

• 57:27Speaker 04

  And when you're a six-year-old, dad does decide stuff, right? Cause you're six, you can't decide for yourself. And I have to understand that she's not a six-year-old. She's a thirteen-year-old and she deserves the right to share her opinion, tell me what she wants to do. I, it's absolutely brilliant. Because you parent, you don't, you make the mistake of parenting a thirteen-year-old like you parent a seven-year-old. Has to change.

• 57:48Speaker 05

  Got to change and adapt. Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 04

  Thank you for that.

• 57:51Speaker 05

  That's a pleasure. Um, we've actually got something for you.

• 57:54Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 57:55Speaker 05

  Um, I'm gonna give you that. I'm gonna ask you to read it out.

• 57:59Speaker 04

  Oh, wow.

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Was it a, a letter from you?

• 58:11Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 58:15Speaker 04

  And.

• 58:21Speaker 05

  Would you read it to us?

• 58:23Speaker 04

  I'm not a... I could try, yeah. If I can't finish it, maybe you can take over.

• 58:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  Daddy is always there for me and I feel like I can always talk to him. And he's set an amazing example to me to always work hard. He always pushes me. Every day on the way to school, he tells me to be the light in the room.

• 58:44Speaker 04

  Dad has taught me simple things such as to be kind to other people. And even though it's sometime, something small, it has a deep impact. Especially if that person is having a hard day. We have a gr- oh, that's nice. We have a great connection. Thank you.

• 59:02Speaker 05

  Sorry.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  And I will always.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  And I'm.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  We have a great connection and I will always want to hang out with him.

• 59:19Speaker 04

  Oh, that's the hardest part as a parent, isn't it? Because that's all you want.

• 59:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 04

  You just want them to want to hang out with you when they're grown up.

• 59:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 04

  Then you've done your job.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  But you have, right? Look.

• 59:31Speaker 04

  Everyone says when you're a teenager, you won't want to spend time with your dad.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  But I know I always will because our bond is so strong.

• 59:41Speaker 05

  I mean, what a letter.

• 59:42Speaker 04

  What a letter.

• 59:42Speaker 05

  That's the dream, that's the dream letter to have your child write you something like that at thirteen.

• 59:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 05

  Normally, you're the most annoying parent in the universe.

• 59:53Speaker 04

  I mean, the fact that she says she can always talk to me.

• 59:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 59:56Speaker 04

  That is lovely. I think it's also okay to say he's set an example to work hard, like.

• 1:00:00Speaker 05

  Yes, of course.

• 1:00:02Speaker 04

  We don't talk often enough about.

• 1:00:03Speaker 05

  That's good.

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  The hard work. Put the light in the room.

• 1:00:06Speaker 05

  The light in the room. Oh, my God. But these are the messages. The, um, is the repetition is key, right?

• 1:00:14Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:00:15Speaker 05

  I think with kids. It's a repeated message every day.

• 1:00:18Speaker 04

  Turns into a core memory.

• 1:00:19Speaker 05

  In the room. Um, mine was. Um, David Hopkins, because you're very good at name checking people. David Hopkins was the head teacher at my kid's school.

• 1:00:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:00:29Speaker 05

  And he said at a leave, a leaving speech, um, aim high.

• 1:00:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, lovely.

• 1:00:36Speaker 05

  And I thought that was so nice. It wasn't like be the best.

• 1:00:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Speaker 05

  It was just aim high, like you don't have to get there, but just.

• 1:00:45Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:00:46Speaker 05

  Aim. And I, and I, I used that and I kept going, just aim high, like. Just don't, don't, don't stress out, just aim where.

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  It's so good because it's not outcome driven.

• 1:00:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:00:58Speaker 04

  It's not achieve great things, is it?

• 1:01:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:00Speaker 04

  You know, like, you know, I've had these conversations for years and, um. And there's three things that you can do in your life. The best you can, where you are with what you've got. If that's all any of us ever do. Well done. Think how great the world would be if we all did the best we could where we are with what we've got. We don't know everything. So we can't know things that we don't know. It's where we are right now. We're just doing our best. And I think we don't reward people for that often enough. It's too much about the outcome.

• 1:01:32Speaker 05

  Can I, can I talk to you a little bit about social? Yeah, it's good.

• 1:01:35Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I love the, knowing like if she can just, I mean, flow is the light in the room.

• 1:01:40Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  But people need to realize that that is, that is where you can, we've spoken earlier, like be a mosquito. Being the light in the room is being a mosquito. Just walk in a room and change the temperature in that room. It's an amazing human power.

• 1:01:54Speaker 05

  And we all have the.

• 1:01:56Speaker 04

  All have it. The person that did it the best in my life was Eddie Jordan. He would walk in a room and transform the mood. He would just like impact people and it's a great thing to be able to impact people.

• 1:02:06Speaker 05

  Tell me what, what, how he did that.

• 1:02:09Speaker 04

  Um, because he wasn't afraid to be embarrassed. And we live in a world now, so this weekend it was Florence's thirteenth birthday party. And it was very interesting for me because we had ten of her friends and we sat down for food and we took them to a pub. It was a surprise for Florence. She didn't know it was happening. And a few minutes in, it's all very quiet. And I'm thinking, what is going on here? So I then said, right, we're going to play, um, what I, our version of What I Lie To You. Give us two facts and we have to work out which one's real and which one isn't, just to sort of break the ice. And it got me thinking that young people are too afraid to expose themselves. They're too afraid of embarrassment.

• 1:02:47Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:02:48Speaker 04

  And embarrassment, you know, Stephen Bartlett, who is the creator of Flight Story, has said this before. Embarrassment is the price of entry. Embarrassment is the price of entry. And I love failure is the price of ambition. If you fail, the price of ambition is to fail.

• 1:03:04Speaker 05

  That's also amazing.

• 1:03:05Speaker 04

  Um, and I, I do have this fear that young people are like, they don't want to be embarrassed. But like, man, all the best stuff's on the other side of being embarrassed.

• 1:03:13Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:03:14Speaker 04

  Isn't it?

• 1:03:15Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:03:15Speaker 04

  Like every, I, I'm sure you relate to this, you know, when you're starting out your TV presenting career, the truth is that you turn up and you're kind of excited because you're the presenter, but then you go, okay, everyone ready? Right, we're about to roll. You have this moment where you go, I'll just have to embarrass myself a bit now because I've got to be the one to stand in front of the camera and do a funny face or do a, you know, in your early days of street, mate, do the funny walk down the road.

• 1:03:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 04

  You weren't, you couldn't be overly self-conscious doing that stuff.

• 1:03:40Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:03:41Speaker 04

  And again, it's about, less about inside and more about outside. And that's how we can create great young people. It's so interesting because I, some, this is obviously totally off topic, but I'm watching your episode with Joel Domit. And the two of you were sitting talking about like hosting Comic Relief and how much of an honour it is and how I met, like, how much you can't wait to do it. And five years ago, 10 years ago, I would have been watching that with envy. But also with, right, how can I make that happen? And the really interesting for me is I watched it thinking.

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  I've, there's no, I have no desire for that. It's really interesting, isn't it, how you let go of certain things in your life? And I was absolutely at one time like defined by being a TV presenter.

• 1:04:25Speaker 05

  Hmm.

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  You know? And then you realize, God, it's hard.

• 1:04:28Speaker 05

  This is the joy of getting older.

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  I think so. I like the fact that I don't think like I thought 10 years ago.

• 1:04:35Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  Like I'm a totally different person. And that's great because that's how life should be, I think.

• 1:04:41Speaker 05

  Well, and it's important to say that because it means that everybody's free to change. I'm going to wrap this up by telling you I have had such a good time and I feel like I could have gone on for another hour.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:04:56Speaker 05

  I'm coming to hug you.

• 1:04:57Speaker 04

  You've, um.

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  I love you. So just in case you missed this episode here, um, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.

• 1:05:13Speaker 00

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