Liz Houghton: Losing My 20-Year-Old Son & How To Keep Living When Your World Ends

How can you really support someone you love when they’re going through unimaginable loss? In this moving episode of Begin Again, Mint Velvet co-founder Liz Houghton joins Davina McCall and shares the heartbreaking story of losing her 20-year-old son Will after a cycling accident, and the moment she learned his injuries were unsurvivable. She opens up about those final weeks together, Will’s decision to become an organ donor, and why knowing his organs helped save 12 other lives has become such an important part of his legacy. Liz also explains what grieving families really need from the people around them, why saying their loved one’s name matters, why silence can hurt more than an imperfect attempt to reach out, and how she and her family learned to grieve differently while staying connected. Alongside her extraordinary personal story, Liz reflects on building Mint Velvet from her kitchen table after suddenly losing her 20-year career, balancing business with motherhood, and creating a company rooted in trust, friendship and purpose. 🌟Like, comment and subscribe for more honest conversations about purpose, resilience, love, loss and beginning again. Follow us here: 📸www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for behind-the-scenes access, recommendations and much more: https://linkly.link/2g2xm We'd love you to share your Get Busy Living stories with us at https://getbusyliving.beginagainshow.com/ (00:00) Intro (01:04) Davina's Gratitude For Mint Velvet And Liz (02:02) Working For Topshop (04:20) Leaving Her First Fashion Job After 20 Years (05:55) Starting Mint Velvet (10:36) Balancing Entrepreneurship And Motherhood (12:34) Garnier Ad (14:26) Monzo GBL Ad (21:36) Getting The Call About Her Son's Accident (29:15) Donating His Organs (32:43) How Her Son Lives On (36:49) Monzo 90 Days Ad (37:59) Check In On Those Who Are Grieving (39:30) What To Do And Say With Someone Who Is Grieving (45:01) Grieving As A Family (52:33) Reaching Out To Her Son's Organ Recipients (54:38) Fixing The Problems With Organ Donation (57:56) How Liz's Donor Initiative Lives On (01:02:51) A Letter To Liz (01:05:19) Her Son's Foundation Sponsored by: Download Monzo. Monzo Current Accounts are for 16+ and UK residents. Ts&Cs Apply. Join the 'Say Yes Club' and hear more about our events here - https://events.beginagainshow.com/ You could get back less than you invest. Monzo current account required. Monzo investments are for UK residents, 18+. Ts&Cs apply. Garnier Nutrisse: UK's NO1 hair dye, chosen by 2 million women. Davina is shade 5 Mocha Brown. Find yours: www.garnier.co.uk/our-brands/hair-colour/nutrisse-creme Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  I've got to tell you, it's unsurvivable. This noise came out for me and I just like literally crumbled.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I have just had the most amazing conversation with the wonderful Liz Houghton.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Never say no to an opportunity because life is too short. So when four of us set up Mint Velvet, I knew I had to take it on. It was just amazing. Like pinch me. And then I get a call when I'm at work.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  The police are coming to get you. Oh, Will's had a cycling accident. This perfect world I had was just taken in a second. My 20-year-old son wasn't going to live.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  But it's one message that comes through so clearly. Hold on to the people that you love. Tell them, show them, be there for each other.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  He donated every single organ that he had. He's gone, but he's not forgotten. We're never going to get Will back, but we're not going to forget him and he's going to have an impact on others.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  Because life can literally change in a heartbeat. And sometimes it's that love that gives us the strength to begin again.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Liz Houghton, I'm really excited to be sat in front of you today because you've made me feel amazing without even knowing it. Mint Velvet is one of my favorite brands. I have not been paid to say this. You are not sponsoring this show.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  I buy your clothes. You have a shop in my high street, in my town.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  We love Tunbridge Wells.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  So I just wanted to say thank you for making us feel so special.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Well, I'm glad you feel like that because to be honest, that is the whole point of when we set up Mint Velvet was actually not just about designing clothes. What is actually what women feel like.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Because clothes are just so powerful, aren't they?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Because if you feel good, you sort of feel like you can take on the world. And if you're out for it slightly wrong, it's like, I don't know about you, but I sometimes just don't have that confidence. So I kind of think that's what we wanted to do. So the fact that you really feel that, that is a massive, massive compliment. Thank you.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Now, Arcadia, I'm dying to ask you, and I don't know if you can speak of him, but like Philip Green, because that was like the Philip Green era.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  You know what? I left before he was there.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Oh!

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I know, sorry. I can give you no dirt.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Okay, God, stop it. But you know what? What I'm really missing, what I have missed so much was Topshop.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Well, my first job. My first job was Topshop.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  What were you doing?

• 2:57Speaker 01

  So my first, well, when I did my rotation, my buying rotation was in Topshop.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  So was that when it was Burton Group?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  So did you know Ralph Halpen?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  He was there for about, I think, maybe five months and then he left.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  But what was really exciting is the weeks I was in Topshop, it was above 214 in Oxford Street.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  And it was so exciting because you'd put something in the store and you'd get a read literally that day. And it was when Pepsi and Shirley, I don't know if you remember this, they did the puffball skirts.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yes!

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And we bought, I think, something like 50 of a few different colors. We put them in 214 Oxford Street. They sold out in a day. And it was just so exciting. And then it was just this buzz of like the supply is running in. And honestly, it was just the best job and I loved every minute. And what was even better, it was on the same floor as Air Studios, which was where Paul McCartney was coming up in the lift, Elton John. And it was just a pinch me moment. Every day I was like, I love this job. So basically I knew I had to keep this job. So I knew I had to do so well. So I was that girl that was going around saying, yeah, what can I do? How can I be more helpful? So yeah, it was a brilliant time.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  How long were you there?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Not at Topshop, so you get moved around a few different divisions. But I was there in Arcadia, when it was burnt to Arcadia, about nearly 20 years. But the group that I was with got bought and sold a few times. So that is the only downside of when you're in that sort of corporate world is sometimes if you're part of a really great brand, that'll be, you know, someone can see an opportunity and that brand gets sold off. So it was brilliant at times and I've had brilliant bosses and then I had some shocking bosses. So you learn so much about how to be a good manager and what not to do, you know, if you want to keep staff and motivate them.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  So what happened at the end of your relationship with Arcadia?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Well, it was actually not Arcadia. It was another group that had bought.

• 4:55Speaker 02

  That had been bought.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, had bought. And I just worked for a particularly tricky man. And it went into administration because what they'd done is the company that he worked for, it was basically a venture capitalist and the Icelandic banks had backed them. And they kept putting debt in and taking equity out, which is what they do. But then in that 2008 crash, it all went under. And all of a sudden, that 20-year career just ended. There was no redundancy. There was nothing.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  You didn't get redundancy?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  Didn't get anything. No, no.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  And the guy that told me that we were going to, as a management team, and then I was going to have to tell everybody else that we were going to lose our job, ate a sandwich, as he told me. I know, I just couldn't believe it. And it was almost like they were all fine because they knew it was going to happen.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  So callous.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  But the people that had been on like buying trips didn't get their expenses. Suppliers didn't get paid. And these were suppliers that I had had a relationship and Lisa, my business partner, she'd had a relationship with them in terms of they trusted us. And that was so hard. And literally we left, we went for a drink at a pub around the corner and I said to Lisa, I'm never going to work for anyone else again. Because to me, trust is the most valuable thing you have in business.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  And if you can't have that, then what have you got?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  So yeah, it was a bit of a light bulb moment, but at the same time we were shocked. So I wasn't rushing off to do something, but I was like, I'm not going to work for anyone else again.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  But is that where the idea was born?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Well, funnily enough.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Because you've mentioned Lisa.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, there was Lisa and Jane, who worked on the design side. And I'd worked with these girls for years and I absolutely rated them. And a young man called Stuart Grant as well. And the sort of four of us, we got on really well. And I knew that I wanted to do something, but the most important thing was working with people that I rated and liked because I was going to spend time with them. And so really before I had the idea of what we were going to do, it's what sort of company were we going to have?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, the feeling.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the feeling. And they were all, I mean Stuart was already in another job by then, Lisa was going for jobs, Jane was going for jobs, but I just couldn't write a CV because I just thought no one is going to give me what I actually want because I had three young children. I wanted flexibility. I wanted, I didn't want someone else to draw the framework. I wanted to sort of have my own values in this company. So I luckily had worked for some great people before. And so I went to these people and I actually said to them, I've gotten an idea that I want to run my own company. Would you back me if I came up with a concept? And they said, absolutely. Which was amazing because they'd been so inspirational.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Who gets that?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I know.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  Who gets that? I've had an idea that I might do something. Would you back me?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  It's like, whatever you do, I'll back you. But that says a lot about you.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  And be the person that people want to back, whatever you do.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  You know what the other sort of mantra I live by, which is what my dad, talking about, picture of your dad, and I'm sure your dad gave you some of these, was nothing ventured, nothing gained.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  And that has always stayed with me. So what's the worst he could have said? No. Okay, fine. But he said yes. So we sat around my kitchen table coming up with, okay, we know we want to run a business that we like people that we work with, we're energized, we're not going to talk spreadsheets, we're going to talk customer and we're going to talk product.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Oh God, so that's so interesting. So it wasn't like what business do you want to do?

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Well, we knew it was fashion.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  It's the framework.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  We knew it was definitely fashion, 100% fashion, because I absolutely loved the job.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was going to say.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  So yeah, absolutely knew it was fashion. We knew we wanted to do something different. So Lisa and Jane, we sat around my kitchen table and we're like, you know, what are we going to do? And I think we all just had this light bulb moment where we said, where are we buying our clothes? And I was like, well, I'm completely lost. And you know, Jane was like the cool designer and she wanted something different. And Lisa's definitely a bit more dressy. I was a bit more cash. And we were like, well, we've sort of outgrown Topshop now. You know, our bodies need a bit more quality. We don't want jersey that sucks you in. Exactly. But we weren't ready for those slightly more mature brands, let's say. And there was this sort of.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Bit mumsy.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Bit mumsy.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yes, the mature.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  So I wanted something that had, you know, when you went into Topshop and did you remember coming though, those escalators? And that, literally that overwhelming feeling of like, oh my God, I just want everything in here.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  I wanted that, but for me, you know, and it's like, where is that? And also I wanted a boutique that was a bit like, you know, you know, go into a beautiful boutique and it's got a smell and it's got texture and it's not just a shopping centre shop that's just white and has no soul. So I wanted to have a sort of a boutique that sort of gave you a bit of a hug as you walked in.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Oh, that's nice.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  So I was like, but why are they always so expensive? Why can't they be good prices? So I want the feeling of Topshop with a quality, with a service that doesn't come at a ridiculous price. So we were like, yeah, that's what we're going to do. Let's have a mashup of our styles, which were sort of relaxed, hint of glamour, a little bit of cool. And so we came up with relaxed glamour. And that was our sort of.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Such a brilliant.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  That relaxed glamour.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Is that not what everyone wants? It looks effortless like.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, it's the effortlessly that actually takes time, doesn't it?

• 10:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  And also, I don't, I remember your life must have been like this at the same time, which, you know, dropping kids off at school.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Going to work, might have a meeting, but then might go out for a drink afterwards. So I needed clothes that went that whole spectrum. So, and so that meant they had to be comfy because I couldn't be all day like that, trussed up in something uncomfortable. They had to be that sort of polished, but I didn't want uptight.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  You know, so how did I get that through the day? And we just knew when we started to tell people that, the reaction we got immediately was like, that's the hole that I have in my wardrobe.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  It is interesting that the demand was absolutely there.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Because I think the way your business popped off.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Is, is proof.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  That there was a massive gaping chasm.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  That Mint Velvet filled.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  I- in an instant.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  You know.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  It was actually really scary how quickly.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  Okay, so talk me through that because everybody goes, oh, but you must have been so happy and look at you, it was so easy for you, it just happened straight away. But actually, there is, there is a place where it can expand too quickly.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yes, it absolutely did. I mean, when people say they work 24/7.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  When you do a start up, you absolutely do.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  It's your morning, noon and night. I mean, and part of going into the business was having some control of your hours a little bit. So if you did want to go and watch your kids play hockey or rugby, you could, but you'd make up in the evening, you know, that was the whole idea. But when we started this business, because the other thing is, you know, I'd sort of left as a director, so I'd had a P A. You know, I hadn't done anything for myself for about 10 years. So I sort of.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  How do you write again?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what was brilliant was that the four of us had to go right back to the beginning.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Basics.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  We had no office, we had nowhere to hang the clothes up. I mean.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  Luckily, it was the summer.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  So on the lawn in my back garden, we were like, okay, that's the top, that's the jean. I was running in, trying it on. It was the summer holidays, the kids were running in and out.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  And how old are your kids at this point?

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Uh, Will was 14, Tom was 13 and I think Sophie was about eight.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  These are demanding ages.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, I want to do this club or.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  They wanted to get involved, the girls. Could they draw as well? Which, as you know, you don't really want helpers.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  Sweet, but no.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, please, but no.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. How long's it been going for, Mint Velvet, now?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  I actually hate saying this because it makes me realise how old I am, but it is going to be 17 years in October, which, and I still think with a new kid on the block and it's so, you know, when you go somewhere, you think, oh, you know, we just started off.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  It's amazing, isn't it?

• 13:01Speaker 01

  17 years.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  This segment was sponsored by Garnier. Oh, my God. Oh, lady over there. Hi. What's your name? Shashana. Shashana. We've got a colleague at work, Emma, who wants to have her hair coloured. I'm trying to find somebody to come with me to come and colour her hair with some Garnier Nutris at work. Yeah, why not? Would you, would you really? Follow me, follow me. So this is the Begin Again studio. And this is Emma. Shashana seemed really confident. She has coloured her friends' hair and stuff before. We've got to put this one into here and shake to activate the colour. Shake it like a Polaroid picture.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  It's already, the colour's lovely. The shade that we are doing on Emma is Mocha Brown, which is my shade. Mine, I own this. I don't. There are actually 35 shades to choose from. It's got fruit oils in it. They are, what nourishes it? Emma, you're very lucky, you have no grey hairs, but Garnier Nutris, the permanent colour's got 100% grey coverage. I can vouch for that.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  That is it. Oh, wow. Easier to do it yourself. Do you see what I mean? Was that easier than you thought? Very easy. Just like putting like hair oil in. Yeah. It's like so easy. Time to go. Go, Emma. Oh, my God, it looks great. Oh, my God, I'm not being funny, you've done a great job. Look, it looks amazing. Look at that, can we just discuss the shine?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  That's amazing, are you pleased with it? Do you like it? Love, love, love, love, love. How confident are you now, out of 10? Oh, 10 out of 10. That was a lot simpler than I thought. I'm so pleased. We did a thing. Thank you for trusting us. You guys have done amazing. And thank you, Garnier Nutris. Love you.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Monzo sponsoring Begin Again to help us win back some time so we can do more of what we love. I wanted to know what that thing was for you. So let's have a look and see who we've got. Okay, so this one's from Dom and Dom is finally learning steel drums.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  I've always loved the steel pan instrument. For years I've wanted to know how to play, but I've always put it off. But I met someone from Trinidad and he encouraged that everyone should have a go and get involved. So I did. And there I was, stood in a group lesson at the tender age of 37, learning Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. And I loved it. It's also really satisfying to pick up something new in your 30s. I think too easy just to settle for the things that you know and not put yourself out of your comfort zone. So trying that really gave me a taste for more.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  That was so amazing because I think when you said to get out of your comfort zone at 37, I think this is the thing that stops us doing the things we want to do. It's a fear of looking foolish, which I think gets greater as we get older. And I think the brilliant thing when something makes you feel that good, you know, when you've had your first lesson, then you're like, I want more of that. So let's do this, let's say yes more. In fact, I'm going to make it happen right now. I'm calling it the Say Yes Club. We're going to take one thing we've always wanted to do and we are actually going to do it. So I'm going to put a link in the description for you to come and join us because that's exactly the thing that Monzo is here to help with.

• 16:24Speaker 02

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• 16:40Speaker 00

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  I also quickly want to talk to you because I think this programme is a lot about like beginning again.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  In terms of constantly shifting the goalpost and where you're at and what you're doing. And you were talking about people saying, well, you know, obviously you've sold a chunk of the business, you could retire.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 02

  Like, what, why do you want to keep working? Can you just explain to me what you get from, because you could.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Conceivably, you know, hang up your, your, your togs, your clothes, your.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Your stilettos.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Stilettos. And, and retire and go and travel the world or do whatever you want with your husband. But you choose to stay plugged in.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Like what, what would I advise people to do?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I'm very lucky because I do try and have a blend. So I still do want to do, because again, that whole other mantra my dad had, along with the other one, which I can't remember what it was now, is life's not rehearsal. And so I do want to travel as well. So I'm a bit of a, I have to do everything. So I, I would say I'm in the fortunate position of having a blended life in that I still very much run the business, but I do, I never say no to an opportunity because I know only too well, life is too, is too short. So because I have my dad's like, life's not a rehearsal, I try and do everything, which makes me a very busy person. But work to me is, is literally part of my DNA and it's because of the people I work with. It's because of the brand that we've created together, which really is quite special.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  And it is the fact that, you know, I was talking to these two managers on this Zoom call and one was in Truro and then we've got one in Aberdeen. And they both talk about this brand as if it's their brand. And to have that connection with people that far away, you just think, you know, I've got to keep making sure I'm protecting this for you. But also I think, you know, I'm excited about the future. Like there, it's such an exciting business to be part of and I wish more people thought about retail. It is such a fun business to go into.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  I, I, it's interesting with this whole talk at the moment about longevity and everybody's looking at how many hours they're sleeping and what pills they're popping. But I feel like you're just doing brilliantly, just being happy.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  You are living a happy life.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  Doing something you love doing.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 02

  You're fit, I can see that.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Arms up.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  So much the rest.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Well, you, you look.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Not panning down.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  I was going to say, you look incredible.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Thank you. So do you.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  You look absolutely the knockout.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  When I came in, you were my inspiration, my Davina in 15.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  Putting the cassettes in.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Fit in fifteen.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  But I think you got that because by doing it in those days, fifteen, twenty, the seven minute fitness. You were talking to me because I I am the person that thinks.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  We were both busy, right?

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Well, I want it all. And and another one is, you know, have your cake and eat it. Why not? You know, I want to be fit. I want to be a good mother. I want to enjoy my job. You know, I want to be there. I mean, my kids might say sometimes, you know, I'm not always there in like, once I get onto an email. But I try and do it all. And I think if you're organised and you're focused and you have a good team. And that's the most important thing. I couldn't do this without a great husband, you know, a great team around me. And and if you've got that, then yeah, you can do it all, I think.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  You just talked about your kids and my kids take the piss out of me when I'm walking. And I quickly, I feel a ping, something comes back and it is something I do kind of need to look at. But I can't walk and.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Text and something at the same time. I get pissed ripped out of me.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  But I then also think, what am I doing?

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Put it away.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yes, I know. I talk to myself because I can. I'm exactly the same. I'm I'm like, don't bring it to the table. Put it in the bag. And I'm like, it's in the bag. It's in the bag. It's not on the table.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  It's talking to you.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  So, yes, it is.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  But how did you, how, for any like working parents out there, how did you find a balance?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I actually think the phone gave me the balance, fun enough, because it meant I could take the office to the sports field. So I actually think modern technology helped women more than they would ever know. Because if I did have to like shoot off a few hours here, I could do something in the evening. You know, I could do something on the way to work. So all of a sudden, I was fitting things in. And I think if you can do that, then you're a really efficient person. So I always, I've never seen technology as a as a bad thing. But I do get it now that it's now, without me knowing it, I probably have done a little bit, you know. Maybe I've gone into that that world too deep.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  And sometimes I think, you know, could I do a whole day without? I've not actually ever tried, but I probably ought to.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Do you know what? Ruby Wax came on this podcast and she blew my mind. And talking about silent retreats.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I know. I've heard about those. I'm I'd be very scared.

• 22:13Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm I am terrified.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yes, I am terrified.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  It feels so challenging to me. Does it feel like that to you?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Well, not talking to anybody, not talking to yourself, not having inspiration or. And also, like, I think we just said, the connectivity. So, yeah, it scares me beyond that. And also, I don't know if I want to be just in my own head. That's a that's a that's a place to go.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  And this is what I wanted to talk to you about next, because I know that you went through an unthinkable trauma.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  You lost one of your children. And I just feel like sometimes that is when you're thinking, I can't, I shouldn't be alone too much because I just can't. Can't go there. It was Will, your oldest son. Could you explain what happened?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Well, I I sometimes really sort of play those sort of end of twenty twenty five, uh, twenty fifteen, sorry, years in my head. Because that is when we first sold the first stake in Mint Velvet. And so can you imagine? It's like all of that work came and I took the three kids and my husband, we all went to New York in December. And we just had the best time. And Sophie, my daughter, her birthday is the same day as mine. And we had it out there. We just had the best time. It was just amazing. And I was like, pinch me. This is like amazing. And then seven weeks after that, I get a call when I'm at work and it's my husband and he said, Will's had a cycling accident.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, okay. He was just at university on a training ride. And he often fell off his bike because he was obsessed with cycling. So we'd been used to this, you know, we'd been used to the grazes and all those sorts of things.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  It's a road bike.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  It's a road bike, yeah, yeah. And I thought, okay. And he said, so the police are coming to get you. And I was like, oh, so this is this is another level. He's like, yeah, they're going to come and they're, he was in London.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Hadn't any information either. He just thought that it was a bad accident.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Yes, well, he knew it. When he was telling me, I was thinking it was lighter, but he knew that the police were coming. So they picked him up in London and they picked me up in, our offices are in High Wycombe. And he picked me up and I just remember being like all of a bit of a, you know, a wobble. And I was in the office with the girls and thinking, you know, oh, I'm sure it's fine. They've come to get us. So I knew it must be urgent. So I was thinking it's serious. But I wasn't thinking, you know, it was going to be terminal, as it were. And when they arrived and they put me in the back of the police car, they then basically, is it Blud and Hoot or whatever you call it?

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  All the way down. And he was in Portsmouth University. And so that is a, on a good day, that's a, you know, an hour and fifteen, hour and twenty minute journey. I mean, we were, it felt like we were there in half an hour, all the way down the motorway. And I was phoning my brother, who was a doctor, and I was sort of saying, and he was actually on a conference, I think, in Europe at the time. And I was, you know, going through all these thoughts. And I was like, okay, so if he's disabled, he'd be really good at the Paralympics. Because he's so driven, so that's going to be fine. And, you know, we're going to do this, I'm going to do this. And then in the back of my head, I kept thinking, if if it is the worst, I'm going to revolutionise how cycling is on road. So basically, why are cycles, cyclists and motorists on the same piece of tarmac shouldn't happen?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  You know, why as a civilised country can we not have cycle paths away from roads? You know, so I was going through, literally, because I'm I am sort of a project manager of any kind of stress. So I was going through all these things. We get to Southampton Hospital and I get out of the car and I can't stand. Literally, I can't stand. And I was like, oh, I didn't realise that. I I sort of go through all these things and I just couldn't stand. So these lovely two police officers sort of held me up and took me into the hospital. And I got ushered into a small room and, you know, you know, this sort of size. And the nurse came and she said, oh, you know, sit down, make a cup of tea and, you know, the doctor will be with you in a minute.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  So we were sitting there and she and he came in and he said, and he was quite a young guy. And I remember thinking, gosh, you're really young. You know what you say about policemen and this young doctor coming, but he was a consultant. And he said, so what what have you heard? And I said, well, I I know Will's had a very serious cycling accident. And he said, well, I've got to tell you, it's unsurvivable. And he just said that. And honestly, you know, when you see things on the TV where you see somebody let out a noise when you hear something, like terrible grief. I thought that that was just theatre. I didn't think that that existed.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  But this noise came out of me and I just like literally crumbled because unsurvivable, it's not even a, well, we're unsure, he's in a coma. So I knew he was still breathing, but he's not, he's not going to live. It's not even that he might have some sort of damage. He's not going to live. And then he just left the room and I was left with these nurses. And it's just like, you know, this perfect world I had was just literally in, you know, a second just taken. So it was just unbelievable. But what I had done on the way down, I'd called my second son, Tom, who's only thirteen months younger than Will, who was at the same university.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  So Tom had already got there and unbeknown to me, had already been told this news on his own. Can you imagine? So when my husband got there, and I was already in with Will at this stage, when my husband got there. Tom made sure that he told my husband, brothers and us having that experience. Because he knew that he had to soften it for my husband. And then we went through and we sat with Will, who looked perfect. He looked, he'd he'd told me that he'd had his hair cut the night before and that I'd absolutely hate it. Because he always had it too short at the sides. And there he was with his really short hair.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  But he just looked so perfect and he was breathing. And I was like, I just couldn't get over how my really handsome twenty year old son was just lying in this hospital bed and he he wasn't going to live. So it was, it was just so hard. And we had two or three days with him. The rest of the family came down and I'm one of four. So my wonderful brother and sister came down, sisters came down, some really close friends, Will's girlfriend. And everybody came to say their goodbyes to Will. And unbeknownst to me at the time, the transplant unit were with us the whole time.

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Because when I, when we started talking to them, I was like, I want to save. Or my husband thought the same thing. We want to save every part of Will's body because he was so fit. He had avocado all the time. He never drunk. He didn't smoke. He was obsessed. He wanted to be a professional cyclist. He was so unbelievably fit. So I said, you know, that boy's organs are just perfect. And I didn't realise I was actually talking to a transplant nurse at the time. And they did it so beautifully because they never asked me, but they were there when I needed them. And it was just, it was so well done. It was for an awful situation. And we had that time to say goodbye to Will.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  And my daughter was brought down by, my mum was still alive at that time, who was eighty five, who just couldn't believe it. Um, and we all were together and we all said our goodbyes to Will. Um, and then he went off and had, I think something like twelve. He, he donated every single organ that he had because he had had a blow to the head. An old lady in her sixties just didn't see him and he, she just mowed into the back of him. And he'd hit his head, so he just had a very intense blow to the skull. But the rest of his body was absolutely fine.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  When um, you talk about the transplant.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Um, nurse being there, um, Will had actually opted in. Could you just explain to people at the time?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  It was a different time to now.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, you definitely had to have a card. And the funny thing about Will is he did like talking about like mortality and um, the meaning of life. He was such a deep, intense kind of guy, but, but lovely and light at the same time. So he'd had a guy that um, had had a heart attack that he'd cycled with that was forty five. And I remember him coming in to see me in the kitchen and saying, Mum, can you believe so and so has died on his bike? And isn't that awful? And what about, what will he do with his body? And, and he was just really sort of attuned to those sorts of things. And it was then that he got an organ donating card and we actually talked about it.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  So he was so into that type of thing, you know, he always was a very giving kind of um, boy. So I knew that that's what he wanted, but some parents, even though they have got a card, some parents do not want to give the permission. Because I think the NHS are so aware that the, you know, the loved one has gone. And so it's really the, the living that have to live with that pain. So if that's something they don't want, they are actually very respectful. So even now, even though it is opt in, parents can still say no.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  It's quite difficult, though.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  It is. It's really hard. And, and to be honest, I didn't even know what I thought beforehand. Like I hadn't really gone there, so I didn't know that I would be so passionate about it. And I was like, you've got to save this. I couldn't have anything wasted of Will. And I, because number one, I knew that's what he wanted. But secondly, he was perfect. You know, he had, like, he had amazing lungs. So I knew nothing could go.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Good boy.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Can I, can I ask you something? I'm not sure we've said how old he was because he was very young. He's had all of this conversation with you about something quite major at such an early age.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  He was twenty. And the other thing, I've just thought of it. He was obsessed with Red Nose Days. Oh my God, there's so many links here. Um, when we used to watch Red Nose Days, he used to get so upset. And he was always saying to me, Mum, you donated, you have donated, haven't you? Like, you've got to donate, you know, look at these kids. And if you saw like little kids in Africa, you know, that didn't have a family or whatever. And for his thirteenth birthday, he said, could he actually not have any presents? But just have um, adopt, because I think there was some sort of scheme going on at the time. So we adopted, not literally, um, a young lad in Africa. And we still to this day donate to that same organisation. I think that guy is now thirty.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Um, so that it's now transferred to other children. But that is the sort of guy he was. He was so aware. So even when he was thirteen, he kind of got it. And he just knew that Will would have achieved so much.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  So that's why I couldn't have his history just ending there. So I wanted his organs to go on and have another life because that's what he would have wanted. And, you know, that's what he did.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  As, as a parent to anybody that is experiencing a child at the end of their lives and you are struggling with this idea about your

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  child being taken apart, but that was the child's wish.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  How did you not think about it like that? Because I love the way you think about it. He lives on.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  His legacy lives on.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  It's funny because actually, even though Will was alive when we got there and he was alive in the bed, you know, in the bed, he was clinically dead.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  They were keeping him alive.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  So I knew my Will wasn't in there.

• 34:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he'd gone.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  So Will, my Will had left.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  But his organs were there. And it's funny because I'm actually not religious, but I do really feel uh, Will's spirit with me always. So it is, it is, you know, and that's why, to be honest, I can never really be with my head on my, on my own. Because there is so many conflicting thoughts. So the Will I knew wasn't there, so I was happy that his body was going to go through that process because Will wasn't there. But Will has subsequently, you know, he's in my heart and he's in my head all the time. Like he would completely lose his shit that I'm talking to you.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  That red nose, it'd be like, that's one for a red nose. Um, you know, so he would, and he would sort of love it. Because I think he always thought he might be a famous cyclist.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  So to be honest, the fact that we're talking about Will, he would love. Well, I mean, he wouldn't want to be in these circumstances, but he would love that. So I hear him all the time. He's, he's a, he's having a lot of conversations with me.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  I talk sometimes about trusting our gut.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Hmm. Oh, my God, I'm such a gut feeler.

• 35:36Speaker 02

  And Michael's always said to me, Michael, my, my husband, has always said to me, but before you trust your gut, you've got to make sure your gut's in a, in good shape.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  And I feel like your gut is in amazing shape. But what I used to do is I used to sit on the edge of my bed and ask my sister.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  A question.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  And she would answer. And partially, I think that was my gut.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  But partially, I think it was my sister, like.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  I know what she'd say to me.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  You've had to almost have a little bit of her in you because she's not here.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  So you're taking her thoughts.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  And you.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm doing the same. And I'm, and I had a drive done shortly after Cook died. And he would have absolutely hated it because it went from tarmac that he could, you know, cycle on easily to these old cobbled like stones.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And I, and they go really slippy in the winter. And I just knew, I could hear him saying, Mum. And I was like, yeah, but you're not actually on that bike anymore. So I thought I could. But I could, I sort of could, I could have an argument with myself. Because, and I'm sure it's the same, you know, because we didn't always agree, you know, like.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Or haircut.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  You know, and were you saying that about seeing his hair? While he was lying there was very touching. I think it's that little connection.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  I think also, I was very lucky. I had seven weeks to say goodbye to my sister. You know, the greatest seven weeks of my life.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  We said a lot of unfinished.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Business, you know, we, we, we finished, drew a line under a lot of things.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I had the same thing with my father. My father died the day before my twenty first birthday. And he had stomach cancer and they said he'd lived for six months, three months, and he actually lived for six. And honestly, I got to know my father on a whole another level. And to your point, like, I see that as such a precious time. And even though he, again, he died far too young, I had experienced what that was like. So I already had a slight understanding of what that was going to feel like. And I think you had the same before your sister, didn't you as well? So you sort of, in some ways, you know what you sort of need to do.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  In order to, to survive, I think.

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• 39:59Speaker 02

  I think anybody listening to your, to your story is that, thanks to you, I called my daughter's boyfriend's mum, whose husband died very suddenly in his sleep at a conference.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Mike.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  Because it reminded me to keep calling.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Because it never goes away.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  That is so true. And that whole, well, I think there's a couple of things, like never have any regrets. Like Will and I didn't fall out. You know, we talked the night before, like never, ever. You know, that whole don't go to bed on an argument because you don't know what's around the corner.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  How important is that, please?

• 40:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Because you, you know, you, you'd have a great relationship with your son. And how grateful are you for that now?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. But also to always check in with people, particularly like, I always say, I am a little bit of a crap friend. Being a busy person, I'm not always like, you know, I'm not always sort of like, oh, we must go for coffee. But I'm always there if somebody needs me. And when someone is going through something tricky, I like to think that I am there for them because you know that, you know, just that little message that says, thinking about you. Or I absolutely love it when somebody sees a cyclist, even now, and says, saw a cyclist today, made me think of Will. Or, oh, my God, I went on a sunset and saw this. Or someone does a ride for his foundation or something, you know. There are all those little precious moments. And you think it is those checking ins that are, that are so important.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  Another thing that people have sometimes said that they love, when somebody's suddenly lost someone, and I don't know if this was the same for you, was when somebody sends you a photograph that you've never seen before.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 41:42Speaker 02

  Of your son. And you're like, oh, I've been gifted him all over again.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  We've got a lovely friend called Dave, who, who, who seems to have taken more pictures than I ever realised, who I would, I would say easily every six months, he sends me a picture. And I'm like, where did that come from? And another friend of mine, Sue, she sent me one the other day of Will playing tennis when he was about four. And I was like, I just love those. And I, you know, it's, it's the pictures and it's just someone saying his name.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Just somebody in a text. You know, like, you know, the things like, you know, you can imagine now, a lot of his friends, they're going through their 30s, they're getting married, having children, you know. They're all tricky times when your child's not doing those things. And it's just people, like, we had some friends that got married and, and they, their whole, they said they didn't want a wedding list. And everybody said, give a, a donation to Will's foundation. And it's things like that, little things. Or even just somebody mentioning his name in a speech. And it's like, he's gone, but he's not forgotten. And that is just so important. Whereas so many people think, oh, I won't, I won't mention Will because it'll upset her.

• 42:53Speaker 01

  And it's like, no, not mentioning Will upsets me.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Let's just touch on that. Because people don't know.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  No, then they don't.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  What to say. They don't know how to react.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  And it's so interesting. Some people literally will cross the street.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I've had those.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Richard D. Grant talked about that.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  I've had those.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  To just avoid the conversation.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  And then other people who you least expect from check in.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 02

  What advice can you give people who just don't know how to broach it? What did you need? And how would, how should they go about asking their friend?

• 43:31Speaker 01

  And to be honest, I think before Will, you know, I don't know. I mean, lucky, not lucky, but you know, obviously I'd gone through this before with my father. So I did sort of know. But I totally understand that people don't. I think the most important thing is people will tell you what they want on the whole.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Could you do that?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  So I'd say first off, if somebody's lost somebody, please acknowledge it. That is the most important thing. And then if some people, if then, if you do start talking about it, and I have got a friend who lost their son by a different way, and they don't want people to talk to them about it. And that happened soon after Will's accident, actually. And I completely respected that. But I would say the majority of people, and I have read literally every book there is on, like literally after Will's, I think for maybe three years, I just got every book on bereavement. Because I just wanted to read other people's stories. And like, is there a, a way to like fathom this, understand it? And people are so good at sharing their, I don't know, the way they articulate how they feel.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Because it's very hard to articulate how you feel. But I mention Will's name all the time. And I think when people see that I'm mentioning his name, they feel more comfortable mentioning his name. But I would always say, never, ever ignore it. And some, somebody said to me, I didn't want to bring it up because I didn't want to upset you. And I was like, okay, the biggest thing has happened already. I'm already upset.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  I'm already upset. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Like, anything you say cannot upset me. What really upsets me is ignoring it. And I met somebody, and I think it was about three or four weeks after Will died. And I met him and his wife in a store. And he said nothing, and he knew. And we just talked about the weather. We moved on. And I went around the corner and I literally wept because it was the most painful thing. Like, he knew what I'd gone through. And he didn't say anything. You know, and to be honest, it could have just been a squeeze. It could have just been a.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  Squeeze or an arm squeeze.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  And I don't know what to say.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  That's enough. You don't have to, you know, because what you don't want is you don't want over sympathisers either. You know, I don't want.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  That's like a grief thief in a way. I'm going to be grieving almost more than you. And now it makes it difficult for me to grieve.

• 45:44Speaker 01

  I didn't have any of those, but I've heard of those.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  And I think they are just as bad. I didn't have those. But, you know, I think they call it grief competitiveness, don't they? And I didn't have those luckily enough. But I think just don't ignore it because that is the worst thing. And I just love it. You know, there was a friend of Will's, who's now a really good friend of Tom's, had a birthday book. And everybody was writing how wonderful this boy George was. And it wasn't called Boy George. He's a boy called George. For his 30th. And there was two mentions of Will in there. And I was reading this book all about how wonderful George was. But there were two little words of Will in there because I thought Will's never going to have a 30th. And it was really small and probably nobody else noticed. But I was like, do you know what? A little.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  It's part of it.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was a little hands clapping in my heart. I was like, oh. Because, you know, I want people to be talking about him when he should have been, you know, he could have been 31 now, but when he's 41, when he's 51, you know. And I don't want him ever not to be part of the conversation because Will always wanted to be part of the conversation. Because he was one of those quizzitive, you know, we talked before about kids that are curious, quizzitive, he was all of those in abundance.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  I'd really like to ask you a bit of advice on a family situation when one very import, well, every member of a family is important.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  But when somebody dies.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  You know, Will had Sophie and Tom.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  He had his mum and dad.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  But you are all collectively grieving.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  But sometimes in slightly different ways. I mean, what's the stat on relationships surviving the child, the death of a child?

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know this at the time, but I did, somebody put me in touch with a vicar, which was weird because I wasn't, I'm not really religious. I went to see this and I don't know why, but I think partly you have lost all your bearings.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  I mean, can I just tell you something? When, when something like that happens, I think I just fucking chuck everything at it. You know, I go anywhere.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  And my husband and I were sitting there and we were both a bit like, what? Why are we here? We did have a nice cup of tea, so it was nice. But I, but in some ways, she put it in a very blunt way. But what it did do, it was a wake up call. Because what she actually said was 75% of couples don't stay together after the death of a child. Which I thought was actually, at the time, you're leading in with a, you know, you've not gone, you've gone tea and then you've gone straight into that. That's, we're going, we're going some. But it actually, it was the wake up call we needed. Because the bizarrest of things had happened maybe two months before that. I wanted to make sure that Mint Velvet had had some charities that we supported. So I know this is going a bit left field, but it does, does connect.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  So we came up with a women's charity. We came up with a environmental charity. We came up with a young people's charity. And we wanted a local charity. And the local charity I chose was Child Bereavement UK. Because they were around the corner. They had a head office. And I just thought, I can't imagine losing a child. And my very first day of what should have been fundraising with the chief executive turned into our first day of counselling after we lost Will. Because after the vicar said that, I thought, we're going to need help then.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  And so, again, weird that I'd had chosen that charity. And that was the first time I came across child bereavement. But I think it was the wake up call, realising that, you know, I could, I knew how I felt as losing, as the mum. But my husband grieved incredibly differently. Sophie had lost her big brother. You know, Tom had lost, really, what was his twin? I mean, they were 13 months apart. They were at the same university.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  So close in age, weren't they?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  You know, it was like, it was all going to be different. And as much as we were a really close family, how were we going to deal with this? I struggled with my mum at the beginning because she was 85. She was still here and Will wasn't. And I adored my mum. She was like the perfect person. So all of these things, I didn't quite know how I was going to navigate them. And I've got to say, Child Bereavement, who was set up by Julia Samuels, was an absolute lifeline. And to this day, Rich and I are patrons of, of their charity. They do wonderful work. And I would say to anybody that has lost a child, you need them. You might not think you need them, but you need them. Because for some strange reason, sitting in a room

• 50:15Speaker 01

  with a husband that you know so well, or a partner you know so well, but hearing his thoughts said to a, a third person that had knowledge of what other people in that.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Situation.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Situation had gone through. I listened in a way that I wouldn't listen. You know, that whole husband, wife listening where you don't really listen at all?

• 50:37Speaker 02

  But I mean, a third party is really important.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  With helping you deal with that and how annoying it is when you're like, but don't you understand? Why are you, why are you doing that? Why are you cleaning the carpet? Or just stuff that you're thinking, I can't, how can you do that? I can't.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  Well, that, that was our main rub because at one stage she said to me, Liz, I think you might be project managing grief. Cause I was like setting up a foundation, I was going to, you know, the NHS, I was, I'm like, okay, I've got to do things. Yeah. And my husband's like, I wanna go and smash someone in the face. Cause I'm so cross. I'm so angry. And, you know, so we just took it so differently, even though he did have those times as well. But initially, you know, we were just very different people. And it, it was really hard because also you were so numb.

• 51:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  You know, and like, we were just going through the notion, the motions, you know, we were just making the dinner, the kid, Sophie was going to school, Tom was doing this, you know, just people came round. I cooked them dinner. We went off, I went back to work.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Can I just say something? I think the idea that as somebody grieving, that anybody would come around and let you cook dinner.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  No, to be fair, people did do a lot of, I, I had great friends, I had soup left at the door. But even so, you know, you still, you go.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  You want to be normal, right?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And I remember one day I was walking along in, in London, going to meet a friend and I had to just stop myself and hold on to a, I think it was some railings or something. And I thought, hold on a minute, my son has just died and I'm going about living. I can't actually make sense of it. And I, I kept thinking to myself, how do you make sense of this? Like, I was literally talking to him and now he's not here. It's like, that is not possible. How is that possible? And I've realised, you will never make sense of it. You can never make sense of it. And don't even try. So you have to go on a whole nother road.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  Which is the road that we are on.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  I mean, he did this, he did this amazing gift, benevolent gift of giving himself to others to carry on living.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Could you just talk me through this amazing experience of people getting in contact with you who received part of Will?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Um, and what, and how do people do that?

• 53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  How did they find you, but what did it feel like for you?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  I feel like there probably is a sort of, it's probably a documentary in here actually, which is, the nursing staff when we lost Will were brilliant. And I had this lovely lady, a transplant nurse called Nikki, and she was just wonderful. So they sort of hold your hands for all and afterwards, they keep in touch with you. And then they sent us this lovely letter, maybe a month later to say, you know, a little boy of two's got part of his, his liver was so healthy, it went to two people. It went to a little boy who was two, it went to a, a girl who was about 20, I think as well. His heart had gone to a, a guy who was 50.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  So you know where it goes?

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you, and they would, and they would tell you things like, you know, this father of three girls has never been on holiday, he's never been able to do this, you know, he's got this. And I, I think it was about 12 people. One didn't work quite early on, which obviously is sometimes the way. I think his lungs went to two different people as well. So he helped so many people.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  12 people?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Even, you know, his corneas, skin, some of his cells went to, like, to, you know, not experiments.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Research.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Research, lost my words. And so it's, it's fantastic. I was like, great. And then nothing, never hear anything again. I was like, so every few months, I was like, hi Nikki, I was like, has anybody said like, thank you or like, I could don't wanna get in touch, I don't want to meet them.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  And it's not, can I just clarify there?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  It's not that you want thanks, it's that.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  You want to know.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  The difference, like, I can now have a life.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Anyway, two years down the line, not a word. And then I, I had, so what they are very good at doing is they still send you this quite anonymity type of letter that says, now the man with the heart, he's now gone on holiday, he's now having a lovely time. I'm like, but no, thank you. And I thought, well, to be fair, he probably thinks he's gonna upset me.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  I think that would make sense.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  I'll write to him. So I wrote to everybody. I don't know their addresses, it all goes into, because everything has to be anonymous. So you write your letters.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  Does it get sent to them?

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, got sent to them. So I sent the letters off. And then I had one letter, I had, no, I had two letters back. One was from a mother, honestly, it was the best letter ever. And it was like her two year old boy who had been so ill and so yellow and couldn't, never thought he'd go to school, now had this wonderful, and she sent me these lovely pictures him running around, every night they do a little prayer. And she said, we always thanked our donor, but he never had a name. And now we thank Will. We do a prayer every night for Will. And I was like, do you know what? That's the best thing. Cause I said, you know, you can't upset me, I want to know you're having the best life. And then another gentleman whose father couldn't speak English.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  And he said, when we left the hospital, we thanked all the medical staff, but we didn't know how to thank the, you know, the donor and the donor family. And he said, so thank you so much for writing. And he said, my father and I just constantly, constantly say a thanks to, to Will. And I'm so happy to know that he would have approved of this. And so I thought, okay, we've got a problem here. They didn't know, they didn't know what to do.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  So I got in touch with NHS Blood and Transfusion, who were our lovely support system. And the CEO at the time said, do you know what? This is a problem we've got. 95% of families want to know, or even live donors want to know, and only 11% ever hear.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Wait, is that true?

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  What?

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the disconnect.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  What? And the difference that it would make to the donor families.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Oh my God, 11%.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  I know. So I said to her, well, could you take me on the journey? Like where, as, as the business headed me, where in this organisation is this falling down? Because we've got people, you know, that, because if I can tell everybody about that little boy, that when another parent thinks twice about saying yes to a, an organ, when they hear my story, they'll say, actually, that helped her in her grieving process.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  That's gonna help that whole circle. So she said, could, do you wanna come on board? You know, we, we would love to actually sort this problem out. And I said, absolutely. So I went, had a few meetings with them and I've gotta say, they were the loveliest people.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  But, you know, they are the NHS and that's a different world. And like I say, my, my brother being in the NHS was like, you know, this is not gonna be like setting Mint Velvet up, like, no one's gonna listen to what you say and do it straight away. But they were so lovely. But what I realised is that you have this one organisation that does all the donation and, and keeps it all sort of the coordination of who needs what, what, who's on what list, who comes available, all of those sorts of things. But then the recipient centres, where these are the big hospitals that do like the hair field, they do all the big organisation of the, obviously the transplant, they are 32 individual hospitals. They have no.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  Connection.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  No connection.

• 58:41Speaker 02

  They are self.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  They are run in their own way.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Self-contained.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what we tried to do, and we met some wonderful nurses, there was a lovely lady called Laura, I remember particularly, and she would come on board and she would say, well, you know, I give them a leaflet, I do this, this and that. She said, but I don't think it's good enough. So we looked at the leaflet, we looked at the website and the first thing in the leaflet was like, if you wanna write and you don't have to, this is what you should, shouldn't say. I was like, okay, we're starting from the wrong place here. We've gotta start off, 95% of people want to know.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  So we, we want to hear and we're gonna help you write that letter if you struggle.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  So we put, so I did a video, which was awful. And when I look at it now, it's like, no one should cry to video. But it was all about.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Very meaningful.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was all about why it was important to write. And that it's this virtuous circle. If I can go around saying to people, did you know Will's heart's gone off around here? You know, did you know he achieved this? Did you know he went and did that? It'd be like, that is amazing. More people should donate because it makes you feel better in grief.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  How many people donate?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  You know, that's a good point, I don't know.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  We need to find that out.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  I want to talk to you about someone.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Andy Preak.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Oh, Andy Preak.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Can you tell me about Andy?

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Because I've only just met Andy. Um, yeah, he's an absolutely extraordinary young guy. So Laura, who was talking about this wonderful nurse from the recipient side, sent me an email, well, email about, um, two months ago and said, I've got this guy called Andy. And he's just had a liver and kidney transplant. But he's training to be a doctor. And, um, he wants to be a transplant surgeon. And I was like, oh, great. Um, and she said, he saw your video about Will. And so he's written to his family and he's got an amazing story. I mean, just amazing doing medicine and having a liver and kidney transplant blew my mind.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  And she said he would like to get in contact with you because he knew about your, because we gave this, um, whole way of trying to get in communication better, get communication better. We called it, don't forget the donor as an initiative. And she said, because we went for about three years of doing this and we took it to as far as we could, I thought, without it becoming a, a negative thing. So I thought, you know, we've done our bit, we've taken it as far as we can. And he was like, I want to take it on. And I was like, I love that. So we had a coffee together about three weeks ago and I, I did wonder if he might be a bit of a nerd. Actually, I did tell him this because he's so clever. Can you imagine like being that ill and doing medicine?

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  Like, how do you do that?

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  And he'd done these transplant games and he'd won a gold medal cycling. And I think.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  Cycling?

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  I know. And he came in and he gave me his gold medal.

• 1:01:45Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  And I was just literally like blown away. And honestly, we got on so well and he was this gorgeous, gorgeous, like so overachieving individual, like, you know, he's got a gold medal in cycling in the transplant games, the Olympic transplant games. And, uh, he's doing this and then he wants to do research and then he's got this special play. And he's like, he is going to change this because the difference with him as opposed to myself is he is in the NHS. He knows how to make that organisation work because there is a will. But the simple scale of the NHS and just how life operates. But he can get under the bonnet and he will be able to do this. And not only will he be able to do it because he knows it, he's been.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  He's been there.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  On that side.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  He knows what it's like and he's written to his family. And funnily enough, he hasn't heard on the way back from the.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  From the family?

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, from the family.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  But he's fine with that because he knows that they've got the letter from him and he writes every single year. And so we said we'd keep in touch and he, in fact, he texted me the other day with his pictures. Cause he won the gold medal again, literally in Sheffield, like last week or two weeks again, two weeks ago. So, um, yeah, he is amazing. And I can't believe you know that.

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Interesting is about this concept of, we, I always call it keeping your side of the street clean. That when you, he made contact. It's that he knew that that was the right thing to do.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  But how they deal with it or whether he is up to them.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  But he knows that he's done the right thing.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  He's, he's helped them out.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  He's let them know how he is. Also, what happens sometimes in long lost family, which is a TV show that I do where.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 02

  We contact people who may have had an incredibly difficult time. And sometimes have left a foundling, you know, somebody where they didn't register their birth or anything.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  There's so much shame attached to that.

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  And we never know the feelings around someone, but sometimes if you let someone sit with something for long enough.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Something will happen six months, a year, two years, three years, four years down the line and they'll go, I'm ready.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And actually, that was the other thing we said in the don't forget the donor, which is even if it's been years, it's never too late because I've never heard from any more than those two. And, you know, I, it doesn't matter if it's like I say, I would just love to know of the life that these people went on to have. And like I say, I don't want to meet them because they'll never meet my expectations. Cause Will was perfect in my eyes, so they're not going to be like Will.

• 1:04:34Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  But I just want to know that he made a difference to their lives.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  And that would make a difference to yours.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the fact that Andy wants to take that forward. And like I say, he is a man to watch because is that his handwriting as well? Oh.

• 1:04:50Speaker 02

  He sent us something and we printed it out.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  And we put it in here.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  And we'd love you to read it to us.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  You know, I'm a dyslexic. Can you not read it?

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  Shall I read it to you? Okay.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Andy Prigg.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, my goodness.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Are you ready?

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Dear Liz, I've been lucky enough to meet a fair few inspiring people in my life, but you stand out.

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Straight off. This is why I couldn't read it.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  Every time I'm in the theatre or on the starting line at the transplant games, I'm there because somebody gave me the gift of a second chance. Meeting you made that real to me in a way nothing else has. What that gift actually costs.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  And what it looks like to carry it with such grace.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  What inspires me the most is watching you get on with each day with a smile. After everything you and your family have been through. And clearly with better taste than me.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Running Mint Velvet, you've got a style I could only dream of.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Such a love.

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  I'm lucky if I've matched my socks before a race. What does that say, a lot of pain?

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Isn't he adorable? He's so adorable.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  The work you've built through the Will Houghton Foundation is part of that same grace, turning something unimaginable into something that keeps giving to other families. So here it is, as simply and as genuinely as I know how. Thank you.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. That's a perfect letter as well, isn't it?

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  And that's all thanks to that little girl.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  An amazing gift with words.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  And the good that he will do.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  Hmm. Oh, my God.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  With his life.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  He, he, he is going to be someone, I can just sense it in my bones. He's already talking about looking at the drugs and researching the drugs that stop, um, the body rejecting organs and the longevity of the transplant. You know, he, he's someone that will not stop till he has made a difference in life. And I just love that he, to your point, he, he has just gone over and above, hasn't he? In terms of delivering that in all aspects.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  Hmm. I wonder, I know someone else like that. You? Um, can we talk about the Will Houghton Foundation because he talks about that in the letter? Just how did that start and what do you do?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Well, to be honest, it's a very, it's actually a very personal thing to, to the family really. And I, I think it's because Will did want to be this cyclist. And, and I don't think it's he wanted to be famous, but I think he wanted to be something in the world. And he loved his kit always matching and he, and he did like, I mean, he did quite like clothes. And so part of it started off is I sort of wanted a website to Will. At the same time, I wanted to do a little bit like the red nose. You know, I wanted to give back to other people. So we start off just saying, whatever we would have spent on Will, we'll just do in the foundation.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  I didn't want to run a charity because running a charity is a very, very particular skill. And lots of charities come and go, particularly when you are so emotionally driven to do something and you think I'll do that. But then keeping that up forever or, you know, changing what you might do. And I knew that I didn't have that skill set. So we set the foundation up and, um, people were absolutely brilliant. So what they did for us, they did start to do runs and work organised a walk for Will was the first one. So we do this lovely.

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Oh, how lovely.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  So now we do everything for, we've had zip wire for Will, we have ride for Will, we have marathon for Will. You know, we've done them all for Will. And, um, the charities we choose are either, they're all for young people and children who really could change their life through sport and education. And the one that particularly always comes out for us that we cannot leave is Care Leavers. Cause Will's big thing was if you don't have a family like I've got.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  How on earth do you navigate this world? So we are Patrons of Become, which is a fantastic national, nationwide charity. Um, and so we do all these things like that. So really it's friends and families raise money, we give money and then we support other charities that support young people. But what it means is like, you know, we all wear these lovely sweatshirts with, you know, Will Houghton Foundation. We do a, a different T-shirt for every walk. Uh, Sophie, my daughter designs a different T-shirt for every walk. And when I go to anybody's house, nine times out of 10, the husbands are wearing the Walk for Will T-shirt. So I'm seeing Walk for Will, I'm seeing Will Houghton Foundation, like in, in all our friends and family.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  And it's so nice and, and I know Will would approve because it's so nicely designed. And so he is just ever present.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  But what he would love is it's doing good as well. So again, it's this, if, and I'm such a believer in like, you can make things better. And we're never going to get Will back, but we're not going to forget him and he's going to have an impact on others.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Thanks to you.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  And to him.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  And to him. Liz, I want to thank you.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  No, thanks.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  For so many things. Um, firstly for sharing your experience and your strength. So obviously a terrifying and terrible experience, but you have helped so many people going through the same thing. Today in particular as well and everything that you've said. Thank you for making me feel such a boss bitch

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  in my clothes. And I'm going to thank you on behalf of all the other people that have loved wearing Mint Velvet. So thanks for that. And you, you've been really inspiring. So it's been really lovely having you here today. I'm going to give you this from Andy.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, thank you so much.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  That's a framer.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it is, isn't it?

• 1:10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  That is just so beautiful.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  Um, but thank you, like I said, you are. Brace yourself. I'm going to give you a massively embarrassingly long hug.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. So just in case you missed this episode here, um, if you love this episode, I know you're going to love that.

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

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• 1:11:49Speaker 05

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• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Honey, that flu keeping you up?

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't got this.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

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