Begin Again Moments: Growing Up With A Narcissistic Parent

In this episode of Begin Again Moments, Simon Squibb and psychotherapist Kathleen Saxton examine how the behaviour of a parent can shape the person you become long after childhood is over. Simon shares the reality of growing up with a mother he describes as a narcissist, from being left to find his own way home at eight years old to being kicked out of home at 15, shortly after his father died. Now, as a parent himself, he reflects on the experiences he once accepted as normal. Kathleen helps unpack what happens psychologically when a child grows up around narcissism, addiction or unpredictable behaviour. As Davina reflects on her own relationship with her mother, they discuss why children learn to keep the peace, adapt themselves to their parents and sometimes lose touch with who they really are in the process. Both conversations examine the difficult work of revisiting childhood as an adult: recognising when something wasn’t okay, understanding why we instinctively defend our parents, and beginning to reconnect with the person we were before we learned to adapt in order to be accepted. To hear the full conversations, watch the complete episodes on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 0:59Speaker 02

  I was eight years old and I went to, I lived in a small town called St. Neitz. And we went shopping one day in Bedford, which is nearby, maybe a 30-minute or so bus ride away. And so we went there and I remember, it's probably one of my earliest memories as a child, I can remember it so clearly, because we were having a nice day and we were shopping. And then I can't remember exactly what happened. I think, I think we just had an argument, basically about something. I think I said I wanted to get a drink and she said she wanted to finish what she was doing. I can't remember the exact detail. But then she just basically said, well, you can just get home on your own then, can't you? And she walked off and left me. Now, at eight years old, I don't know if that's normal or not, right? At eight years old, I'm just instantly thinking, okay, I've got to, I've got to get home. You know, what do I do?

• 1:44Speaker 02

  How do I get home? What bus do I have to get? We came in a car, by the way, so I didn't know what bus I had to get. And I didn't have any money on me. So of course, back then, no mobile phones, no nothing, right? So it's kind of an interesting panic. Now, you know, since growing up now, I've got a seven-year-old, he's just about to turn eight. I can't even leave him in his bedroom when he's home, you know? Like, I like checking on him, make sure he's okay. So now I understand, maybe, you know, it was, it was technically wrong, but it didn't feel wrong to me at the time. I felt like I'd done something wrong and she was punishing me. That's what parents do when you do something wrong. So, but I guess, kind of, this is the good thing about when people are hard on you. I learned to get home.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  I learned to, you know, get the money I needed, figure out the bus, get on the bus, you know? An eight-year-old is not, it's not a weakling. You know, I managed to learn this thing that I now carry with me, you can call it a curse or a blessing, that anything is possible and you can just, you know, despite being dumped in a town with no money, I can survive.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Which is kind of an interesting revelation. It's almost a bit freeing. If you've got nothing, you've got nothing to lose. If you've got nothing and you can make something out of nothing, it kind of wakes you up a bit. Now, I would never do it to my child.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  No.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  But I, I also see some good in it. And I see some benefit in it. When I interview people, I could see sometimes people that have single parents or parents a bit tough on them, sometimes they have a better life long-term, because they do the hard thing when they're young for the easier life later. And I think my mom also kicked me out at 15 years old, just after my father had died. And so that was also a crazy moment.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  I mean, she literally put your stuff on the street.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, no, she didn't even give me my stuff, just told me to get out. So I literally grabbed a bag and threw some stuff in it and she said, get out of my house, screaming at me, I'm gonna call the police, get out of my house.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  And you never went back?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Never went back.

• 3:40Speaker 03

  Wow, 15.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah, and even now, when I think about it now, I feel a bit sad about it, because it's, I went from having a father and a mother, I've got three brothers, we're all together in a house. And then suddenly I'm on my own, out in the real world. And I think the thing that really hit me was just how unprepared I was for the real world, even though that eight-year-old experience, that wasn't my daily experience, that was just a one-off experience when I was younger. Actually, at 15 years old, looking like an adult, so you don't look fif, I didn't look 15.

• 4:10Speaker 03

  Were you tall?

• 4:10Speaker 02

  I was, I looked, I was a rugby player, I looked like a grown-up, you know? Most people thought I was 18, 19, 20. So, you know, 15 years old out in the street, yeah. But, well, I mean, the, the other side of it is the world I learned, suddenly throwing out into the real world, like, I have a lot of empathy for the homeless, because I was actually homeless in total for eight weeks. But the homeless people were the kindest people ever to me. Most people's experience with homeless people in this country are like someone begging you for money. I had a completely different experience. They gave me the half a sandwich they had left. They gave me the blanket that they couldn't really justify, they needed it for themselves, to me. And they, they told me how to survive in the streets, you know? Like, the people that I thought were the, almost society's abnormal, you know, weirdos were the kindest people.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  And so, and then I, when I-

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Kinder than your mother.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Kinder than my mother in that moment?

• 4:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a, my mom, I always feel sorry for her, she's still alive and she may listen to this podcast, so I'm always conscious that I don't want to hurt her. But I also, you know, must tell the truth. And she was a great mother when I was young, actually. And despite that story of where she had some moments where she just lost it and did perhaps the wrong thing. We used to play board games, she, she would, we'd all have fun, and she was, she was engaged mother. But I didn't know that she was a narcissist. And I didn't know what a narcissist was.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Mine was too.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  So I, I didn't understand that terminology or what it meant to me. And she would pitch me against my brothers to fight each other, she would like drama. I just thought that was normal. You know, like, as a kid, you don't know what's normal and what's abnormal. It wasn't until I left home, actually, that I realized it was abnormal. But, you know, I, I still struggle talking about it, because I feel bad that she might be listening and I'll be hurting her feelings, you know?

• 5:56Speaker 03

  I think that she's your mother.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 5:59Speaker 03

  So of course, of course she loves her.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Naturally instinctively, that's to protect our parents, right? That's, that's part of our responsibility as, as kids. As the parents get older, I feel it. But I also know, every time I've ever tried to deal with her in my whole life-

• 6:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  She just, it, it, it's an element of bipolar too.

• 6:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  It's like you just said, one, one minute she's the funnest person you've ever known, and next minute, she'll just burn the house down and you with, with it. And she'll just, there's no logic. I think that, you know, that, that, I was, now I understand what narcissist is, but to me, it's just like, there's no logic sometimes. It's just about destruction. And I don't like destruction. I like harmony and kindness. And I've discovered who I am.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  And it took me some time to figure out who I am, because when you're with someone that is like that, you kind of mirror them, because you want to fit in.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Right? So I see this, you know, when I was at school, bullies who were hanging out with other bullies, maybe some of those kids don't want to be bullies, but if they don't bully as well, they're gonna get teased or bullied themselves.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Exactly. So it's a survival mechanism. And I think in my house, we're all fighting each other all the time. I thought that was normal, I didn't know anything else.

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• 7:39Speaker 03

  As well, I suppose, as talking about who is a narcissist, there's a little piece of me now that's questioning whether my mother was a narcissist, from what you're saying. Yeah. I think she was just an alcoholic. Okay. And alcoholics are selfish. They're very self-conscious, that's part of what they're going through. I think it feels like something a bit different. Hmm. That, and that, this is quite a nice- Maybe a reassurance that maybe not. Well, it's quite a nice- Why did you think, maybe, what had led you to think that or to be curious about it for her? About her being a narcissist? Yeah. I think because she was a, a bit like me, a peacock, but an extreme peacock.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  It was walking down the street, I've talked about this before, but with a, with a long fake fur coat on and flashing people, she was naked. Yeah. But she's with me and I was 11. Little, yeah. You know? Or putting me in kind of danger, or taking me to a nightclub when I was 13 and then going to school weed and leaving me on my own in the DJ booth. Um, but and then she's like, you're fine. I need to go and do this. Like, it's just thinking about herself. But I wonder whether that is just a an absolutely chaotic alcoholic.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Chaotic and the selfishness of the of the addiction she was in.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  The addiction. Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Because I, she was totally self-absorbed and never was interested. I mean, she did get, she did get angry with me if I tried to impress her. I I just wanted her to be proud of me, really. That's what I was constantly seeking.

• 9:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. What happened when you challenged her in life?

• 9:18Speaker 03

  I would never challenge her.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Ah, okay.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  I was terrified. I mean, she'd go mental.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Because feedback or challenge for a narcissist is very, very difficult because for them, it's the it's the equivalent of you picking at the mask.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  And they're thinking you stay away from that.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Maybe she was a bit.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  So there could be something that might give you a clue in there.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  On the spectrum somewhere.

• 9:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  Because I would, I would never, I would never even try and approach her because she'd just go, I'll absolutely ape shit.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 03

  We were always just trying to keep her.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  Keep the peace and keep it, of course. But what happens and where do you put all those feelings if you weren't able to find a place to put them as a kid? It's tough.

• 9:55Speaker 03

  Well, I was just very lucky because I only spent my school holidays with her, but my sister is over there.

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Um, she was with her all the time.

• 10:03Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  And she had a very, very difficult life. And she protected me from quite a lot when I was over there. So I, I, when she came over here, but what was interesting, I thought you were talking about kids not knowing their identity. My sister lost her identity.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  I think. But is the chronic lying something attached to anything? Oh, is it?

• 10:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:28Speaker 03

  Is it attached to that?

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was partly attached to that, which is, if if we think about the spectrum.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  My sister was a compulsive liar, but we used to laugh about it in the end because I'd just go, is that a porky pie? And she'd go, yeah, it is, yeah. I mean, we, it was just part of our.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  This is loss of identity again and wanting to be accepted. So we talk about, it's Donald Winnicott's theory, who's the most amazing, you know, he was the most amazing psychiatrist and psychotherapist. If we're born a true self, so we come into the world as a tiny baby and nothing's happened to us and whatever spirit pilot light we have is ours to own. But very quickly, we realise that we need to, you know, we're keeping the peace with mum, we're worrying about what's going to kick off, et cetera. We start adapting. So we have an adapted self that we, you know, we're in it a lot of the time if we've got difficult parents. It then can move out to false self. We completely start lying about what we are, who we are, what we've done, in order again to be accepted in some form.

• 11:19Speaker 03

  I think that's exactly what she did.

• 11:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And the very worst is also idealised self. We think I must, I must be idyllic in order to be accepted and loved. But if your sister got caught in false, which would have not been her fault because it's the way she survived.

• 11:35Speaker 03

  It wasn't her fault. Yeah, it was, I knew it was a survival.

• 11:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. But what we say is we're quite a long way from home.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  And so if we can find a way to bring ourselves back to home, that's the therapeutic work that I do with my clients.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  How hard is it to kind of untrain someone? Who has, like, when you're talking about this journey going from someone who's literally had to change themselves to survive a narcissist? How kind of long are we? I mean, I know it's a bit hard for you to say because everybody's different.

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Everyone's different, but I I genuinely think it can take about eighteen months of concentrated work. Because we say that when a child doesn't feel loved, they don't stop loving their parent, they stop loving themselves.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  So I've got to work with them on that to start with. We also quite naturally tend to defend our parents, even though we know.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  I did that.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Of course, there are clearly things that aren't right, but our natural instinct is, we've only got probably one or two or maybe three of the step or blended, but so therefore we tend to defend them initially. Or we'll say, look, other people have had it much worse than me because

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:41Speaker 04

  let's say that parent hasn't physically been violent or sexually been difficult or abusive, then we kind of feel psychologically, you know, should I be complaining at all? So there's all sorts of things that people will say initially, there's defence mechanisms and it's, it's really clever that as a kid you've come up with that. But over time in therapy, we begin to slowly just peel it back to the point where they can get a little bit more comfortable with accepting it wasn't okay.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 04

  They did that.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  I mean, what a wonderful realisation to realise that you were wronged.

• 13:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  As a person.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Yes. And people will often say, yes, but my mum or my dad had a difficult upbringing and they might have done, or they were in the grip of addiction. Yes, absolutely. But what we say is it might explain it, but it doesn't excuse it.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:28Speaker 04

  There's a difference there.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  And so that's also the work, gently helping someone come to terms with that, because then what does that also mean for them? If their parent is alive or their parent has passed, what does that mean and what do they want to do with it? What I can't do is sort of open Pandora's box and show them and then kind of leave it there.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  You're leaving them right in the middle of that pain. So that's why the work takes some time because we need to be very gentle with these inner children, if you like, to help them begin to slowly come to terms with it and accept that that is what happened. And then where can I find the compassion for myself that I went through that as a kid if that was the story that this person's had in front of me?

• 14:09Speaker 00

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.