We Saved Each Other From Addiction | Sarah Hiscox “I Wouldn’t Be Alive Without You”

What if your ‘begin again’ moment comes after you lose everything your marriage, your children, your best friend, and almost yourself? Sarah Hiscox is Davina’s best friend of nearly 40 years, but this is a side of their story that has never been told like this before. In this episode of Begin Again, Sarah Hiscox joins Davina to talk about friendship, addiction, shame, motherhood, recovery, love, and the long road back to herself. Sarah opens up about growing up with low self-worth, an alcoholic mother, and a childhood where difficult feelings were pushed down rather than spoken about. She reflects on the early experiences that shaped her relationship with shame, food, pills, and eventually heroin. Davina and Sarah also revisit the moment their friendship changed both of their lives, from Sarah confronting Davina about her drug use, to Davina later having to draw a painful boundary when Sarah’s own addiction had taken hold. Together, they speak honestly about what it means to love someone through addiction, while also knowing you cannot save them unless they are ready to save themselves. Sarah shares the devastating reality of losing her marriage, her children, and almost her life to heroin addiction, as well as the moment she finally found a way to begin again. She talks about getting clean, rebuilding trust with her children, finding her way back to her husband Renshaw, and learning how to become the mother she had always wanted to be. This is also a conversation about creativity, self-belief, and finally finding your voice. Sarah discusses writing her debut novel, The Beginning and the End of Everything, and why becoming an author has been one of the most meaningful chapters of her life. At its heart, this is a story about love in all its forms: friendship, marriage, motherhood, forgiveness, and chosen family. Sarah Hiscox reminds us that even after shame, addiction and loss, it is possible to come home to yourself, and to the people who never stopped loving you. This episode contains conversations about addiction, eating disorders, overdose and recovery, please watch with care. 🌟 Like, comment, and subscribe for more honest conversations about identity, growth, and beginning again. Tap the bell to stay connected with new episodes of Begin Again. Follow us here: 📸 www.instagram.com/beginagain 🎥 https://www.tiktok.com/@beginagainpod ✨Follow Sarah Hiscox: https://www.instagram.com/popular/sarah-hiscox/ ✨Buy Sarah’s book, The Beginning and the End of Everything: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beginning-End-Everything-foreword-Davina/dp/0715656767 ✨Sign up for the Begin Again newsletter for all your behind the scenes access, recommendations and much much more at: https://linkly.link/2g2xm Sponsored by: Do Health - The waitlist is open. Begin Again listeners get fixed early access pricing when they sign up today at dohealth.co/beginagain use code BEGINAGAIN Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees apply. People are gonna think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children. I'm gonna cry already. It's usually you that's crying. Oh, God. Sarah Hiscox, you are my best friend. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. I remember meeting you and it was love at first sight. You were taking heroin. And I thought I was gonna lose you. Will you just tell the story where my begin again happened with you? Oh, my darling.

• 2:25Speaker 06

  There was a big void in me. I must have been 13 and I found some pills in the bathroom cabinet and they were very, very strong opioid. And so I definitely remember being addicted to those. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. And so I was really worried when you went, I tried heroin for the first time. No, I'm not gonna do it again. And that's how it was. God. Until it wasn't. In the end, my husband divorced me and took custody of the children. People lose their families all the time. But there is something about a mother losing her own children. I thought, I've got to try and start pulling a life back together. I'm gonna read you something. Oh, God. Mum.

• 3:11Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 3:13Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 3:16Speaker 06

  Well, this is weird. Very weird. Yeah, yeah. This is Sarah Hiscox and she is my best friend. And very importantly, you helped me begin again. Yep. A profound begin again. Yeah. I don't know if I'd be alive without you. And I helped you begin again. In a very profound manner and the same, I don't know if I'd be alive without you. I'm gonna cry already. It's usually you that's crying. Oh, God. And also, I think that you-

• 3:49Speaker 07

  You are very inspirational for anybody out there who is just trying to find their things. So you have tried many different things to find out if that was going to be your creative outlet.

• 4:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:05Speaker 07

  And I want to talk through that later, but you ended up taking a writing course.

• 4:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 07

  You got a literary agent, then you got a book deal and you have released a bloody book.

• 4:18Speaker 06

  A bloody book, can you believe it? I know, still can't quite believe it.

• 4:21Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 4:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 07

  So, um, Sarah Hiscox, The Beginning and the End of Everything, out now.

• 4:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:30Speaker 07

  A foreword by some bird called Davina McCall.

• 4:32Speaker 06

  Never heard of her.

• 4:33Speaker 07

  No.

• 4:34Speaker 06

  Some old bag, no idea who she is. I don't think anybody's in the least bit interested either. It's the Sarah Hiscox bit they'll be looking at, not the Davina McCall bit, you megalomaniac.

• 4:47Speaker 07

  And you've got a little bit of a recommendation from Gillian Anderson on here.

• 4:51Speaker 06

  She very kindly gave me a quote, which is very generous of her, yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 07

  That's good.

• 4:56Speaker 06

  Very nice.

• 4:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, really lovely. But this is, this is a massive achievement.

• 5:00Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 5:01Speaker 07

  I just want to say, well done.

• 5:02Speaker 06

  It feels weird, though, you saying that. Doesn't, that doesn't sit comfortably with me, you saying that. I just want to talk about something else, which is ridiculous because that's why I'm here. Because it's that, it's that imposter syndrome thing of, well, it's, it's, I'm not, I'm not a real writer. You know, it, it, it's, I know, because I've written a book and it's been published. Like, how much more proof do I need? But I think that really is what the book, I mean, as you know, the book is about a lot more stuff. But central, it's about, centrally, it's about feelings of low self-esteem and low self-worth, which I've struggled with for all my life. That's really it, I think.

• 5:45Speaker 07

  And for me, it's the ultimate love story.

• 5:48Speaker 06

  Oh, and you're right, it is the ultimate love story.

• 5:51Speaker 07

  I mean, really, honestly, beyond all odds, I keep, whenever, against all odds, I think, I keep thinking of that Phil Collins song.

• 6:00Speaker 06

  Take a look at me now.

• 6:03Speaker 07

  Um, I would like to talk about how interesting it was, seeing how autobiographical this is, how much about you, having known you and been your best friend for forty years.

• 6:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 07

  How much I didn't know.

• 6:17Speaker 06

  I know, that's crazy, isn't it?

• 6:18Speaker 07

  It is weird.

• 6:19Speaker 06

  Oh, because we have had so many conversations, obviously, over the years, you know, deep, meaningful conversations.

• 6:25Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 6:26Speaker 06

  So that is strange, yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 07

  When I read about your childhood.

• 6:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:30Speaker 07

  And I think really when we became friends at nineteen.

• 6:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 07

  I just started our life from there.

• 6:35Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, so did I.

• 6:37Speaker 07

  And we didn't ask each other tons of questions about our childhood. We were just like, who are you now?

• 6:42Speaker 06

  You're my person.

• 6:43Speaker 07

  Let's go.

• 6:44Speaker 06

  But also, we didn't, we didn't have the emotional language then.

• 6:48Speaker 07

  But we did have a trauma bond.

• 6:50Speaker 06

  We did have a trauma bond.

• 6:51Speaker 07

  Our mothers.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  Our mothers.

• 6:53Speaker 07

  You know, and they made us close from the get-go, I think.

• 6:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 07

  Well, first off, where did you grow up?

• 6:59Speaker 06

  I grew up in London, and then we moved to Suffolk when I was about eight. And I was definitely a kind of daddy's girl, didn't get on with my mum. She was an alcoholic and not particularly brilliant at mothering. She prized sort of thinness and beauty above all. And there was a mantra that she used to say to my sister and I, which was, laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and you cry alone. Which is, which is not great for a small child. So basically, chin up, get on with it.

• 7:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 06

  You know, nobody's interested in your histrionics, just smile and look pretty. And, and manners was a big thing. And she was a terrible snob as well. You weren't allowed to say c'esti. We weren't allowed to read Ina Blyton books because she said they were badly written.

• 8:01Speaker 07

  Oh.

• 8:02Speaker 06

  And, I mean, she would have positively burst into flames if we'd used the word radio instead of wireless.

• 8:10Speaker 07

  No.

• 8:11Speaker 06

  I mean, yeah, it just blows off.

• 8:12Speaker 07

  No.

• 8:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, so weird. And she she wasn't grand herself, so I don't know what where that came from. Um, but from from very young, and it seems a lot, I mean, I know. You know, you have similar experience. The and a lot of my girlfriends do this sort of seventies rather neglectful parenting.

• 8:34Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:35Speaker 06

  And I think that, you know, them being our parents being the children of people, you know, who were alive during the war and I don't I don't know why that is. But it seems quite common, that kind of seventies neglectful parenting. And I I I want to be really careful not to blame her because what I do know, and we've discussed this before. Is that she absolutely did the best she could with what she had. She was unable to give anymore because she didn't have it in her. You know, so that. I I want to be careful not to not to blame her, but. There was from a very early age, this feeling of not being good enough.

• 9:18Speaker 06

  But then I I suffered from terrible nightmares. I don't remember what they were, but just not sleeping, not sleeping. So my mum, remember, I'm eight. My mum took me to the local doctor and he gave me Mogadon.

• 9:32Speaker 07

  Now, I mean, again, I don't think I was fully aware. That that had started for you so young.

• 9:41Speaker 06

  But no, it was I mean.

• 9:42Speaker 07

  This is insane.

• 9:43Speaker 06

  It's I wasn't aware until I started writing the book. It just did it was so normal in my house to just help yourself to pills. They were everywhere, so. I don't it it didn't really occur to me.

• 9:59Speaker 07

  But I mean, you know, it's one thing to give a grown woman something like that, but an eight year old child. Mogadon was what a downer or?

• 10:06Speaker 06

  It's a very powerful sleeping pill.

• 10:09Speaker 07

  Right.

• 10:10Speaker 06

  You know, prescription only sleeping pill.

• 10:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:12Speaker 06

  That is not available anymore, probably because it's so addictive and powerful. But then, I mean, it would just, you know, knock out a bloody horse. And I was a small eight year old girl and my mother didn't think twice about giving it to me. It had been sanctioned by a doctor, so it must be all right. So I remember taking the pill. I mean, it was a gateway to to something completely different. It was it was like having a big blanket wrapped around me. It was delicious. And I I think I was prescribed them for a couple of weeks. Two weeks of sleeping pills. I mean, nowadays they say nonstop.

• 10:51Speaker 07

  You would be completely addicted.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, three days, they say now.

• 10:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 06

  But then, two weeks is a long time. But anyway, two weeks and then and then and then the nightmares returning. Then, when I was a bit older, I found some pills in the so I must have been twelve or thirteen. And I found some pills in my dad's or in the bathroom cabinet, and they were called Palphium. And they're a very, very strong opioid, very, very powerful, very fast acting. And I would take those when I got home from school. But again.

• 11:31Speaker 07

  I mean.

• 11:32Speaker 06

  They're in the bathroom cabinet, along with my mom's hand packs and her Clinique toner. You know, so it was it was fine. And so I definitely remember being addicted to those when I was thirteen. And when they ran out, becoming ill, you know, diarrhea.

• 11:50Speaker 07

  Wow, stomach ache.

• 11:52Speaker 06

  All of that stuff, but I didn't know what it was.

• 11:54Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 11:54Speaker 06

  You know, so but again, it wasn't until I started writing the book that I remembered all that stuff. So when we met, let's just set this story up.

• 12:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 06

  You and I met at a party.

• 12:06Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:07Speaker 06

  And I remember meeting you, and it was love at first sight.

• 12:12Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 06

  And by the end of the party, I was like, I want to see you a lot more.

• 12:16Speaker 07

  Every day.

• 12:17Speaker 06

  Every day.

• 12:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:19Speaker 06

  It was really funny.

• 12:20Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 06

  Falling in love with a girl.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:23Speaker 06

  And being like.

• 12:25Speaker 07

  You're my person.

• 12:26Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 12:27Speaker 07

  This is it. And it was instant from then on. Now, before that, before I met you, because this is very key to our story, I think. You had been in a car crash. Can you just talk us through what had happened in the car crash?

• 12:45Speaker 06

  Yes, so I had just finished my A levels at school and I had gone to Spain with two girlfriends to stay with people that we knew that were living out there in Malaga. And we were in a car coming home from a nightclub and we were going round a hairpin bend.

• 13:09Speaker 07

  You know, there's really windy roads in the mountains.

• 13:11Speaker 06

  Windy, windy roads in the mountains in Spain. And we were on the wrong side of the road. And basically, we got knocked, the car came round the bend and knocked us off and we fell down the side of a cliff and the car sort of crumpled up like paper. And I, the other two were sort of okay, superficial scars, but I had cut into the protective layer of my brain and so I had to be in hospital for a long time.

• 13:39Speaker 07

  How long?

• 13:40Speaker 06

  I think I was in hospital for three months.

• 13:42Speaker 07

  Oh, how?

• 13:43Speaker 06

  But I wasn't, because with a, well, I mean, as you know, with a head injury or brain injury, any, you have to be very careful. So I was told that I had to take, I had, I'd had a place at art college that I was going to go to and I was told I had to take a year off from that to recover. No kind of going out late, no partying, no drugs. I had to be really careful of all that stuff. So obviously that was quite, that was quite difficult at that time because I was 18. And that's when everybody's celebrating and going, and it's your start of your adulthood, isn't it?

• 14:22Speaker 07

  And also just remembering that. This was around the time of like nineteen eighty eight.

• 14:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:29Speaker 07

  Um, Summer of Love.

• 14:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 07

  Um, ecstasy was everywhere.

• 14:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:35Speaker 07

  Everyone's like, you know, in the football terraces.

• 14:39Speaker 06

  Everything's everywhere.

• 14:40Speaker 07

  Uh, on this, like it was.

• 14:42Speaker 06

  Huge raves, those enormous raves.

• 14:44Speaker 07

  Illegal raves everywhere.

• 14:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 07

  And you couldn't.

• 14:47Speaker 06

  No, well, I think you'd be part of that.

• 14:49Speaker 07

  So for me, who was in all of that.

• 14:52Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 07

  And I was on, at the beginning of me going really mad.

• 14:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 07

  Um, you felt like my safe place.

• 15:02Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 07

  But you didn't feel safe or confident. But to me, I thought you were. It was, reading the book was such an eye opener for me, knowing how you really felt back then.

• 15:15Speaker 06

  But we both served, we both served a purpose for each other. Maybe, maybe you didn't know. But I didn't really know. I just saw you as this fabulous sort of peacock that I, I wanted to be more like, you know, and, and that you, you know, you're, you're, when you turn your light on someone, it's very warm there. It feels good, you know, and so I felt, I, I felt so happy that you, you know, that you did that for me. And so the, uh, but we were doing that for each other. And also I, I did know your backstory and I, I could, you know, you were living in your dad's like cupboard, basically.

• 15:58Speaker 06

  In your dad and stepmother's flats in Olympia, do you, do you remember?

• 16:03Speaker 07

  So well, I mean, that's where, you know, that's where my begin again happened with you.

• 16:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:08Speaker 07

  Um, just, it's, I mean, it makes me laugh sometimes, actually, when you think about how it happened. But will you just tell the story?

• 16:14Speaker 06

  Of how.

• 16:15Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 06

  How I confronted you.

• 16:17Speaker 07

  So what, like, I'd got bad.

• 16:19Speaker 06

  So you got bad and, and I could tell that it wasn't just like a couple of E. You were taking heroin, you know, and that to me, well, to most people with any sense is incredibly dangerous. And I thought I was gonna lose you. And it wasn't just. Being the centre of attention at a party or something much darker that had taken you over and I was aware people talking about you behind your back and I was aware that you were kind of sliding out of here and

• 16:53Speaker 07

  I was losing myself.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  You were losing yourself and you'd always to me, one of the huge attractions of you to me was that you always seemed so self assured, you knew who you were, you knew who you were, you knew what you wanted, but then that suddenly seemed to go and so I remember I was working for a PR company, I'd been given tickets to Santana, the Hammersmith Palace and I was like, do you want to come? You were like, yeah, all right. I was like, why would you? But anyway, I remember picking you up in my little mini metro outside the, your

• 17:28Speaker 07

  Dad's flat.

• 17:29Speaker 06

  Yep. And you getting in the car and me turning to you and saying, listen, I'm really worried about you.

• 17:39Speaker 07

  Can I just say something? I'm back there.

• 17:41Speaker 06

  I can feel it, I'm right back in that car as well.

• 17:43Speaker 07

  So weird.

• 17:44Speaker 06

  So weird. It was dark, it was winter.

• 17:46Speaker 07

  And I was like, what?

• 17:48Speaker 06

  Well, you were, it's funny because we have slightly different memories of it.

• 17:51Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 17:52Speaker 06

  Which is also strange, but I remember you being crumbling quite quickly because I think you were scared, you realised.

• 18:03Speaker 07

  Well, I was a bit angry that you were talking to me about it.

• 18:06Speaker 06

  Like, how dare you?

• 18:07Speaker 07

  But then the minute I got out of the car, I mean, your memory might, maybe I did crumble before, I mean, it was so long ago, right?

• 18:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:14Speaker 07

  But I cried all the way to the front door, but I was like, I can't let her see how broken I am, but I know I'm, I know I'm fucked.

• 18:27Speaker 06

  And you were fucked.

• 18:27Speaker 07

  And I know this is the end.

• 18:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:30Speaker 07

  I was so full of shame, you telling me that people were talking about me.

• 18:35Speaker 06

  It's hard that.

• 18:36Speaker 07

  Was the thing that finished me off because I thought, oh my God.

• 18:41Speaker 07

  I am the topic of conversation and I'm not there.

• 18:44Speaker 06

  I know, how awful.

• 18:45Speaker 07

  I hate that.

• 18:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:47Speaker 07

  I hate the idea that.

• 18:48Speaker 06

  And it's sort of like slightly patronizing like you heard about Davina.

• 18:51Speaker 07

  She's such a mersl.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, she's a real, she's lost it.

• 18:54Speaker 07

  Oh, God.

• 18:55Speaker 06

  And because also there is a, there is a, in some people, there is a glee in that. You know, I remember hearing in a meeting once, you can really tell how healthy you are by how you feel about your friend's success.

• 19:07Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 19:08Speaker 06

  And that, and that's so true, you know, and so there was, there was a glee in some people that, oh dear, she's lost it. You know, but I was frightened for you.

• 19:20Speaker 07

  I did know that.

• 19:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 19:22Speaker 07

  I did know that. There was no.

• 19:24Speaker 06

  No, that's why I confronted you.

• 19:26Speaker 07

  There was no mass.

• 19:26Speaker 06

  I wanted you to stop.

• 19:28Speaker 07

  It was love.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  I wanted you back because also I could feel, and you know what it's like with heroin, it puts a, it, it puts a wall between you both. And I could feel that wall and I didn't want that there because you were the person that I spoke to. You, you were my person, you know, you were mother, father, brother, sister to me. So I, I needed you back. Um, so it was purely selfish, actually, but, um. So I remember that very well and, and that was a huge turning point for you.

• 19:58Speaker 07

  Well, it was everything. I don't, I didn't use again. I went to a meeting the next day and that was it.

• 20:02Speaker 06

  And that was it.

• 20:03Speaker 07

  And I didn't drink again and I've never had a drink again.

• 20:05Speaker 06

  I know. It's, it's a big deal.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  Oh, my darling.

• 20:22Speaker 07

  I am, I am so grateful.

• 20:27Speaker 06

  I'm so grateful.

• 20:28Speaker 07

  That you saw me.

• 20:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 07

  Thank you. And, um.

• 20:34Speaker 07

  What's funny was when I said I was gonna interview you to a couple of people that didn't know about your book and everything, I said I'm interviewing my best friend. And they went, "What, the one from the car?" And because of on Diary of a CEO, when I did my interview, I talked about you and that moment and how you changed my life.

• 20:55Speaker 06

  There are, there are moments that one remembers. Huge moments that, that you begin again with. You know, you can, you can have more than one. You can have, I've had a few, you've had a few. You know, but it is that willingness and to, to try and begin again and also to, and a hope that it will be better as well. And you, and you had that. And then, then life just completely changed for you.

• 21:24Speaker 07

  Well, for us.

• 21:25Speaker 06

  For us.

• 21:25Speaker 07

  It was amazing.

• 21:26Speaker 06

  Once that's, once you've taken that step. It was, yeah, monumental.

• 21:31Speaker 07

  So thank you.

• 21:32Speaker 06

  It's a pleasure. Well, honestly, you did the same. And you, you got married.

• 21:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, very young. Well, reasonably young, yeah.

• 21:39Speaker 06

  How old were you when you married Renshaw?

• 21:41Speaker 07

  I was 23 when I got married.

• 21:42Speaker 06

  So let's just talk about how you met and how annoying I was. I'm really sorry about that.

• 21:46Speaker 07

  Oh my God, you were so annoying.

• 21:48Speaker 06

  I mean, you were meant to be my friend. You humiliated me in front of my soon to be hopeful boyfriend. So basically, I'd, I'd met, I'd met Renshaw and, and was mad about him. Couldn't quite believe he was mad about me. And I remember him taking him to your club, Quiet Storm, which was just like full of like the trendiest, ruriest, like was. And I, I was just, you know, I was on the guest list. So it was a real like, we should go to Quiet Storm. I'm on the guest list and plus one, you can be my plus one, you know, it's a win for me. And bringing him into the club.

• 22:32Speaker 07

  I was so.

• 22:33Speaker 06

  And you were so excited because obviously you knew all about it. And what did you do? Can I show you what you did? So there you come towards us in the PVC or whatever you're wearing. And, and you come towards us and I'm like, Div, this is Renshaw, Renshaw, this is Div. And you go, oh my God, oh my God, I've had so much about you. And I just stood back in absolute horror like, what are you doing? Like, you're meant to pretend, I haven't even mentioned his name. It's like all sense of being cool and nonchalant was gone.

• 23:09Speaker 07

  But you did fall in love.

• 23:11Speaker 06

  I did absolutely fall in love.

• 23:12Speaker 07

  And so did he.

• 23:13Speaker 06

  Love of my life.

• 23:14Speaker 07

  And it was the most unbelievable thing to behold. I've got to say, as an outsider looking in.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 07

  I remember wishing and hoping that I might one day also enjoy a love like that. It, it was, um, it was extraordinary. And your wedding was one of the most joyful days of my life.

• 23:39Speaker 06

  Well, I've just, when I, when I think of you talking about the wedding, do you know what I see?

• 23:44Speaker 07

  What?

• 23:45Speaker 06

  I see you on the.

• 23:46Speaker 07

  On the pole.

• 23:47Speaker 06

  On the pole of the marquee in a really, really short kilt. Tiny, tiny kilt, bobby socks and high heels. She hasn't moved on, like pole dancing against the marquee. But I'm so glad you had fun.

• 24:04Speaker 06

  What I love about you is like you create your own fun.

• 24:09Speaker 06

  I remember being in a restaurant.

• 24:11Speaker 07

  I haven't stopped, I'm still doing it.

• 24:14Speaker 06

  I, I remember for my 40th, we went to this restaurant and they were taking a really long time bringing the food. There was like some, some issue in the kitchen, maybe they had a fire or something. And so everybody, we were like there for an hour, the food still aren't come. You just start dancing and singing and it was like, she's just creating her own fun. It's just leave her to it.

• 24:40Speaker 06

  No, I love it. I love it. I love it. I love it. Thank God for that because it's not changing. I know, and I never want it to change.

• 24:50Speaker 07

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• 25:32Speaker 07

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• 27:00Speaker 02

  Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery, charred flatbread for any meal.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 27:07Speaker 04

  Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy okay?

• 27:15Speaker 04

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 27:20Speaker 04

  You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.

• 27:30Speaker 05

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 27:49Speaker 06

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. It was at around this time that you told me. Yeah. And this was heavy. Yeah. That you were bulimic. Yeah, yeah. When did that start? Okay, so that started in my early twenties, late teens, early twenties. It was something that I could do that nobody knew about that gave me some kind of relief from the feelings that I was feeling inside. And the interesting, well, the thing about bulimia is that people don't tend to talk about it because...

• 28:35Speaker 06

  With anorexia, which of course is a deadly disease. Yes. There seems to be quite a lot of people talk about anorexia, maybe because there is that sense of control around it. With bulimia, there's no control and it's deeply shameful. You know, it's drug addicts, I hear it in meetings, tend to talk up their drug addiction. You know, like, oh, man, I was so bad. I was, you know, sticking a needle in my eye. There is nothing glamorous or rock and roll about coming back from a party and eating sort of seventeen M and S shortbread and then throwing it up. Like, there's no glamour there. And there's a disgust and there's definitely self disgust. This idea of stuffing. Yeah, and then purge.

• 29:20Speaker 06

  And then, and then putting your fingers down your throat and throwing it up. Yeah. It, it, it's disgusting and it is disgusting. You know, so I kept that quiet for a long time, but it became very bad. You know, I was. You're doing it very thin. I got very thin, but then I got, then I put on a lot of weight. So at first, I don't know if you remember, but I lost weight. This is working marvelously. And then because of the amount of food I was eating, you, I couldn't get rid of it. So I started putting on weight and then that just spun me out and I couldn't, I couldn't understand why I wasn't losing weight. And then that feeling of the, like I said, the self disgust, the, the, the

• 30:04Speaker 06

  the hatefulness that I felt toward myself, the violence I felt towards myself was the way that I spoke to myself, just like, you know, you're, you're ugly, you're fat, you know, you're just this, this self loathing, this absolute disgust at myself. And I put on the weight very quickly after that. And, and also your face becomes puffy. I mean, your body's just trying to. Hold on to any. Yeah, cause there's things that's dying, you know, he doesn't, you're gonna get rid of it. So it's holding on to everything. And I just, I was thinking the other day, my God, if I, if I spoke to my children.

• 30:48Speaker 06

  The way that I spoke to myself during that time, they would have been taken away from me. I mean, imagine if you're, if one of your daughters came up to you and said, I hate myself. I hate the way I look. I disgust myself. You would just put your arms around them, like, we're gonna get you any kind of help we can, but that's. You didn't tell anybody. I didn't tell anyone, but then I told you. And you were the only person I told. And the thing was that the difficult thing with food, which is different from drugs and alcohol, is that with drugs and alcohol. You, you, you're abstinent from them. With food, you can't, you've got to eat. So it's, it's really hard.

• 31:32Speaker 06

  And it's not, it's not lost on me now that I'm the thinnest person I know. You know, I have a complicated relationship with food. I still do. I have to be very careful about what I eat, when I eat. I don't, I don't um stop myself from eating the things that I want, but I'm just mindful. Because honestly, the bulimia was so much worse in many ways than the drug addiction. Yeah, really. Although the consequences, the outside consequences for the heroin addiction were, were much bigger. But the internal consequences are terrible, yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 06

  It's the shame and, and shame keeps people quiet. It keeps people silent. So if you don't shine a light on it by talking about it, it just grows in the corner, which is, which is what happened. So I didn't get help.

• 32:29Speaker 07

  So at the time, you know, you, on paper, it looks like your life is going brilliantly.

• 32:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 07

  You've done art college.

• 32:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 32:36Speaker 07

  You've met Renshaw.

• 32:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, getting married.

• 32:39Speaker 07

  You're getting married, but that isn't healing you.

• 32:44Speaker 06

  No.

• 32:44Speaker 07

  Why not?

• 32:45Speaker 06

  Because it's an inside job, you know, it's a void that within, that is within me. I remember listening, watching one of your Begin Agains with Spencer Matthews. And I, and he was talking about his addiction. And he was saying that when he met his wife, it made him want to be a better person and he stopped. That was the opposite from, I didn't have that experience. That was not my experience. My experience was that if I wasn't all right, he would leave me. You know, so I had to keep all these things undercover. If I wasn't thin enough, if I wasn't pretty enough, if I wasn't clever enough, if I wasn't funny enough.

• 33:28Speaker 07

  That's your mum.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, then he, he was gonna leave me and oh my God, he might find out anytime. Anytime he's gonna, I'm an imposter, he's gonna find out who I really am. And if he knew how I felt about myself, he'd be off in a minute. So I had to keep these things truly hidden. And like I said, when they're hidden, that, that's when it's poisonous and it goes bad. So there was this, it just felt like a big void in me. And I tried filling it with Renshaw, with foods, with, I don't know, a new pair of jeans or. But nothing works.

• 34:07Speaker 07

  No.

• 34:08Speaker 06

  Because that's not how you fill it, that's not what happens. But I didn't know that then. I didn't have any, any book to say, okay, well, this is what you need to do.

• 34:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  And so I just felt, well, I'm gonna get pregnant one day. And that, and that'll stop because when I have a baby.

• 34:27Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 34:27Speaker 06

  Then everything's gonna be fine.

• 34:29Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 34:30Speaker 06

  And then I had a baby. And honestly, when he was born, your godson, Linus, all that, all those feelings I'd felt all my li, all my life about not being enough, not this enough, not that enough. Disappeared. This tiny thing of perfectness, of beauty and purity and the love that you have for a baby is so different from any kind of love.

• 34:57Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 34:58Speaker 06

  Because the love that I experienced before was either with my parents, which was very complicated, love hate. Renshaw loved him, but there's always jealousies and others. There's so, there's so much more in that word of love. But with your child, it's pure.

• 35:15Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 06

  It's just love and I'd never experienced that before. And it was overwhelming and, and I remember staring at him on the bed and just being quite overwhelmed with that feeling of love. And that, you know, lasted and then motherhood, I was scared of being a mother because I'd not been mothered very well myself. I remember calling my sister, Belinda, and saying, I'm scared I'm going to be a terrible mother. And she said to me, whatever our mum did, just do the opposite. And that seemed like a really good place to start. I was like, okay, that's good. That, that, that makes sense.

• 35:58Speaker 06

  And I thought, well, if I just love him, you know, nothing else matters. But I was young, everyone was on these, my bestest friend in the whole world was on this massive career trajectory.

• 36:11Speaker 07

  Yes, I'd started working on MTV.

• 36:13Speaker 06

  You are on MTV.

• 36:14Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:15Speaker 06

  And.

• 36:16Speaker 07

  Travelling.

• 36:17Speaker 06

  Travelling, having an exciting.

• 36:19Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 06

  Glamorous life.

• 36:20Speaker 07

  Yeah. I hadn't thought about what that must be like if you're at home with a baby.

• 36:24Speaker 06

  I was jealous.

• 36:26Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 36:26Speaker 06

  I was jealous of you. I was envious.

• 36:29Speaker 07

  Well, it's funny because I.

• 36:30Speaker 06

  I know.

• 36:31Speaker 07

  I wanted your life like.

• 36:32Speaker 06

  I know, but it's that thing of, it's never enough.

• 36:37Speaker 07

  What you always want, you have.

• 36:38Speaker 06

  What you haven't got.

• 36:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 06

  And I just felt so lonely. Renshaw was doing a degree in architecture. I think it was his final year. So he, he was away most of the time or at work most of the time. And I was at home with Linus on my own, you know, making shepherd's pie, washing the tweenies and I, I just felt completely isolated. And that, and that void of you're not enough, you just.

• 37:10Speaker 06

  You know, you're just not, you're just not enough, you know. That opened up again and I didn't know how to fill it. And I was really scared about bulimia, which I was still making myself sick then. Not as much, but it was just a feeling of hopelessness, like I don't know where to go with this empty feeling. And, and, and even while I'm saying it to you now, I'm thinking, God, you sound just like a spoiled bitch. You know, but it, it wasn't about that. It was about internally, what was going on inside.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  Well, like you said earlier, it's an inside job, good and bad.

• 37:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 07

  It's all in here.

• 37:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 07

  And it doesn't matter what's happening on the outside. If you're not well in here, you can't enjoy anything.

• 37:58Speaker 06

  No, so I got a part-time job and it was working with somebody who was taking heroin. They were people that worked sort of in and around the kind of fashion industry. And there was an element of excitement and danger to these people because they took heroin.

• 38:18Speaker 07

  I thought the first time that you'd taken heroin was in India.

• 38:22Speaker 06

  It was.

• 38:23Speaker 07

  Oh, okay, it was.

• 38:25Speaker 06

  It was in India.

• 38:26Speaker 07

  So, so, cause that, I think that is what the story worth telling because you, you and I had lunch. At Models One, you might not remember this, but you came to, you came to Models One.

• 38:38Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:39Speaker 07

  And we went out for coffee on, at World's End.

• 38:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 07

  Um, and we went to go and have lunch and we, you'd come back from India, I was like, how was it? Was it good, blah, blah, blah. And you went, yeah, it was amazing. Then we were chatting away and you went, I tried heroin for the first time. And I went, what? And I was like, why did you do that? And you went, no, no, no, I'm not gonna do it again. I just, I just, um, I just, you know, I just tried it. And, and you were like, oh, I mean, me and Wrench both tried it and we're definitely not gonna do it again. And I was thinking to myself, but you know what it did to me.

• 39:13Speaker 06

  I know.

• 39:14Speaker 07

  Why were, why would you do that? But I didn't say it out loud, cause I thought, well, let's just wait and see. But I was really worried after that lunch.

• 39:25Speaker 06

  We did try it in India and I had built it up into this thing because of you, because of other people we knew that had

• 39:33Speaker 07

  Had problems.

• 39:34Speaker 06

  Had problems, lost their life to it. And so it was something that was very scary for me. I mean, drugs were quite scary for me, really.

• 39:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, ten years with no drugs.

• 39:45Speaker 06

  No drugs. And also, I didn't like the idea of not being in control of something. Like, I didn't like, what if I think I've got wings and I want to fly off?

• 39:54Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 39:55Speaker 06

  What if I go mad? That was the thing. I couldn't control my thoughts.

• 39:59Speaker 07

  Yes, and also you'd been told by the doctor, don't do anything mood altering because it would be dangerous.

• 40:03Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 40:04Speaker 07

  So that is a reality that you think could happen.

• 40:06Speaker 06

  Absolutely. So heroin was always... Well, heroin was something, obviously I'd had the experience with you, but also kind of Zamo ingrained shell, you know, people sell their grandmother, you know. So I was like, oh, I'm not going to do that. And then we did end up doing it in India. And I have to say that the first time I did it, I was very sick. Really sick, like I'd been poisoned, well, had been poisoned. And the moment the sickness finished, I was like, I want to do it again. But the thing about it is, for me, was all those things, the pills, the food, they worked to a certain extent on filling the void, making me feel as good as.

• 40:49Speaker 07

  Momentarily.

• 40:50Speaker 06

  Momentarily, not really.

• 40:51Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 06

  It didn't really do the job. Heroin did the job. I mean, it was like that hole just went phew. And I was normal. It wasn't like I was some crazed junkie that was behaving in an irrational way. I just felt normal.

• 41:09Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 41:10Speaker 06

  Like, oh my god, this is how normal people feel. This is how they cope in their life. Without those voices of you're shit, you're fat, you're thin, you're stupid. Yes. You know, all the voices just disappeared. And so I was in, I was in, but like you said, I just thought, but I'm, I'm gonna be the one in control of this. And that, that, that shit that happened to you isn't gonna happen to me. She's an addict. Yeah, she's an addict. I'm not, and I've got a baby and a husband and a, and a house and. And a life. And a life. I don't, I don't need to, if I could just do this alongside those things, I, I don't need that career that you've got.

• 41:56Speaker 06

  I, I don't need to have a MA in philosophy. You know, I, I'd be all right. And that's how it was. God. Until it wasn't. How bad did it get? It got really bad. So I had gone to rehabs. You know, I was in a very privileged position that my husband could afford to send me to rehabs and pay for therapists. And I did those things and that didn't stop me using. Why not? Because I, it's such a good question that. Why not? Because I wasn't ready?

• 42:41Speaker 06

  I mean, how ready do you need to be? But that void kept opening up every time I stopped. And now I knew how to fill it. And, and even though I could see my life crashing around me, it just didn't seem like an option. I, it felt like, I mean, this is the most ridiculous thing to say, and I know it doesn't make sense, and I know that it's not true, but it almost felt like there was this malevolent spirit. Had taken over and it was making me do things that I didn't want to do. I just tried. It wasn't like every time I came out of rehab, I just thought, no, fuck it, I can't be bothered. I tried so hard every day, I'm not going to use, I'm not going to use.

• 43:26Speaker 06

  And then something would, a switch would go and the choice had been taken away from me and I, and I couldn't understand why because in the end, Renshaw divorced me.

• 43:40Speaker 07

  You loved Renshaw.

• 43:41Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 43:41Speaker 07

  You still loved Renshaw, even though you were using.

• 43:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 07

  But, and you knew if you didn't stop using.

• 43:47Speaker 06

  I would lose him.

• 43:48Speaker 07

  You would lose him.

• 43:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 07

  But still, you couldn't stop.

• 43:51Speaker 06

  I couldn't stop.

• 43:52Speaker 07

  And what was it like? When did you know he was going to say it?

• 43:57Speaker 06

  He'd given me so many chances. And I had almost given up on myself.

• 44:06Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 44:06Speaker 06

  And thought, I didn't have the courage to take my own life. I couldn't see a life in which I wasn't using heroin. I couldn't, because I couldn't do it. I tried so many times, I couldn't do it. So I obviously wasn't capable of it. Um, and then one day, he called me and we met up. We weren't living together at that time. I don't, I don't know where, I think maybe I was at my sister's, I can't remember.

• 44:33Speaker 06

  And he spoke to me and he said, it's like they've been, it's like you've had a lover. I've lost you to someone else, but instead of a man, it's heroin. And I can't do this anymore, Sarah, now I can't, oh God. He said, I can't, I'm worried that I'm going to end up bringing the children to, you know, a grave and I can't do that to them. I have to look after them. And so he, he said, you know, that's it, I can't, you know, you don't seem to want to do it. So, and I remember screaming inside, thinking, no, no, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it.

• 45:19Speaker 06

  And I remember him saying, because we had two sons then, Linus, who must have been four and Beach, who was one. And him saying, I'm going to have to tell Linus. And I just, I just didn't want him to tell Linus because I knew. Oh, it was just awful. And when he left that pub, after he said, I, I, you better get a lawyer, because I'm going to divorce you, and I'm going to take custody of the children. That sort of sense of hopelessness. But then, within that hopelessness, a tiny little flame of hope, of like, I'm going to do it this time, I'm going to do it. I remember walking past the house, our old family house where he still lived with the children. And I remember him

• 46:05Speaker 06

  thinking he'd be upstairs with Linus, you know, reading a story, and it should be me that was in there. And I just didn't, the house was just there. It was just me and this, the house, and how to get from where I was outside the house into the house. And it seems so simple. Just stop taking heroin. Just stop taking it, you stupid woman. And I just couldn't fucking do it, you know, and but again, that feeling of like, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And not doing it.

• 46:37Speaker 07

  Can I ask you something? You mentioned Beach there, your second son. How did you navigate being clean?

• 46:45Speaker 06

  With him.

• 46:46Speaker 07

  With him.

• 46:47Speaker 06

  I imposed this very strict rule on myself that I would use three days on, three days off, because somebody told me, not a doctor, obviously, that the baby wouldn't be born addicted to heroin.

• 47:05Speaker 06

  So that's what I did. And it was those three days off, all I could think about was those three days on. And then the three days on were just filled with this awful guilt, this terrible guilt of like, you know, who are you? You're, why, why is the love of your children not enough? Like, why isn't it enough?

• 47:26Speaker 06

  And I don't know why it wasn't enough, but I do know that addiction is, you hear it all the time, you know, people lose their families all the time. But there is something about a mother losing her own children. People judge that very harshly. So I was also scared to get help because

• 47:49Speaker 06

  People would be so disapproving, so shocked, like she's a mother. And, and I think that's what, I think that's what keeps a lot of women and mothers quiet because it's the shame of it. Addiction is more powerful than anything and it's difficult for people to understand. And I, I can see that because as I'm saying it, I'm thinking, oh my God, people, if they watch this, they're going to think that I'm this terrible person because I chose heroin over my children, which I did, you know, and then I was only allowed to see them as supervised contact, you know, that's pretty, just to say that.

• 48:29Speaker 06

  In the end, Renshaw had gone, the children had gone, my sister had gone, my mother had gone, I don't speak to my father. You were the only one I had left. I could still felt like I could, I could still call you up and say, oh, poor me, poor me.

• 48:51Speaker 06

  You'd give me slightly short shrift and then I remember coming to stay at your house for the weekend and I was using at that time and I knew I couldn't use heroin because you bloody know, so I took a bottle of methadone. And, and when I left and I hated the weekend because you were this like happy family, you had this great career, this wonderful husband, this like wonderful house, like, you know, perfect family. And I was this person that was only, and the only, I was only allowed to be there with my children because you were the supervised contact at that point, Renshaw had allowed it. And I took methadone with me, which is a prescription medicine that the doctor will

• 49:34Speaker 06

  give you to ease withdrawal symptoms, to help stop using. And I left a bottle of it in the bin and then, do you remember you called me, I will?

• 49:44Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 06

  And you went ballistic, didn't you? And you were like, that's it, I'm done. I'm done, I'm done. If you're ready to get clean, I'm here. But, and that was very painful for me because I just thought like.

• 50:00Speaker 07

  I think, I was like, I, I mean, I hadn't seen methadone.

• 50:07Speaker 06

  For years.

• 50:09Speaker 07

  Uh, and there was some in it.

• 50:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:11Speaker 07

  There was like, some in the bottom and I, and I was like, huh, what did I do with it? It was like a nuclear.

• 50:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:17Speaker 07

  Kind of.

• 50:18Speaker 06

  It was like wow, wow.

• 50:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, quick. I, I needed to like drive to Oxstead to put it in a public bin. So I couldn't go and get it out of a bin.

• 50:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:28Speaker 07

  You, you know what I mean?

• 50:29Speaker 06

  Yeah, I do know what you mean.

• 50:30Speaker 07

  It was like, um, danger. And when I put the phone down from that, I thought.

• 50:45Speaker 07

  I wonder if she's gonna make it.

• 50:47Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 50:51Speaker 07

  I was really scared.

• 50:52Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 50:53Speaker 07

  Because I thought I'm the only one she's got left. And I've just cut her loose, like, is this gonna be it?

• 51:01Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 51:02Speaker 07

  Um, is she gonna not make it? Because you'd done all the treatment centres.

• 51:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, it was, it was the end.

• 51:09Speaker 07

  Was really feeling.

• 51:10Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 51:11Speaker 07

  Um, desperate. And, you know, I could, Renshaw still loved you, like.

• 51:18Speaker 06

  And I still loved him.

• 51:19Speaker 07

  He didn't know what to do. He, he was like, I.

• 51:23Speaker 06

  He had to protect the children.

• 51:24Speaker 07

  Nothing's working.

• 51:26Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 51:28Speaker 07

  So I just put the phone down and just prayed.

• 51:35Speaker 07

  Please take care of Sarah. Like, please do something, something change.

• 51:44Speaker 07

  Um, so what happened then?

• 51:49Speaker 06

  After that phone.

• 51:50Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 51:51Speaker 06

  I mean, I carried on using for a bit. I overdosed. That was really scary. I ended up in some hostel in Earl's Court.

• 52:04Speaker 07

  Fuck.

• 52:05Speaker 06

  I know. And with two people and who I didn't really know, uh, one I did, uh, one, one person I'd met in treatment. And, um, the other person I didn't know. And she had, I, I, she had, I think she'd had had three children. They'd all been adopted now. She'd lost them all. It was really bad and. I was using and I'd never used needles before. And she said to me, well, you're not, you're not smoking it. You, you, if you, if you want it, you're gonna have to use a needle. But by this stage, I didn't give a fuck.

• 52:40Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 52:40Speaker 06

  I was like, whatever, just do it. And I overdosed and I ended up, I remember waking up in an ambulance and the paramedic

• 52:52Speaker 06

  saying to me, who's the prime minister? Who's the prime, how many fingers am I holding up? Who's the prime minister? And I, I didn't know what had happened to me and told me you've overdosed. And this fear gripped me of, oh my God, am I gonna die? Like I, because I had no control now. I'd taken the drug. I didn't know how it worked, like, am I gonna die now? And he took, and they took me on a stretcher into a room where I think I was injected with adrenaline or something. And the doctor there was quite harsh with me. I was wasting their time.

• 53:25Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 53:26Speaker 06

  Like there were people who are really sick and need them. And here was I, some stupid junkie overdosed and they were having to, that's how I felt. Like I, I remember saying, I'm sorry to him. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And I was crying because I was frightened. I was crying because I was frightened. And I thought, how have I let it get to, how is it, how has it got to this? Like how, like, nobody else is doing this. Nobody else is making me do these things. I'm doing this.

• 53:54Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 53:54Speaker 06

  Couldn't understand how I'd let, let it get this far. And he was very sweet and said, do you really want to stop? Yes, I really want to stop. You know, he has, gave me some pamphlets or something. And it came out of the hospital and I remember sitting on a bench

• 54:14Speaker 06

  and just feeling so utterly hopeless, looking at the pamphlets, thinking it's too late. You know, it's just too late. And then going off and scoring again. I mean, the insanity of it, the absolute insanity.

• 54:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 06

  But it did give me a fright. And, you know, a couple of other things happened. But I'd sort of come to a decision, even, I can't re-explain it. I didn't have this epiphany. I didn't fall to my knees and have some spiritual awakening where I thought, I've, I've given up, you know, I'm, I've stopped. No, I never had that.

• 55:01Speaker 06

  But I think you just don't stop trying. I didn't stop trying. Yeah. Even though there were times of hopelessness. Yes. There was still, I always think of it as like I was on this merry-go-round. It was like a misery-go-round, round and round on the misery round. And these exit signs flash up and you either take them. Yes. Or you don't. But you don't know when the next one's coming. Or if the next one's coming. Oh, my God, that's a very, very good visualization. And I kept missing those exit signs, being, seeing them, but just missing them. And I just took one and I stopped.

• 55:45Speaker 06

  And one day turned into, yeah, I didn't go to treatment. I did go to meetings. I did go to one of my meetings. And at that point, if somebody had said to me, you need to stand in the corner. I was the same. Upside down in a bucket of pigswill for 48 hours to stay clean. And I'd be like, yeah, okay, I'm doing it. That's whatever it takes. I was the same. Yeah. When I was ready. When you were ready. I'd have done anything. But what's so weird, Viv, is why I was ready then and not earlier. I don't know. I just don't know. But I do know if you just keep trying. Keep trying. Never give up. It does work. Yeah. Do you know what? You wrote me a letter. I don't know if you remember this.

• 56:30Speaker 06

  I, I do remember writing you a letter, yeah. But I don't remember what it said. You wrote me a letter and.

• 56:35Speaker 07

  I got it and this was after, you know, I'd said, right, contact me when you're, when you're willing to get clean.

• 56:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 56:41Speaker 07

  But you wrote me a letter. Oh, my tits nearly hanging out.

• 56:43Speaker 06

  Nice.

• 56:44Speaker 07

  Were you enjoying that?

• 56:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, it's what I'm used to. That's what we're all used to.

• 56:50Speaker 07

  That I read the letter and I was like, she's clean. I knew from the letter.

• 56:56Speaker 06

  What did I say in the letter?

• 56:58Speaker 07

  You were humble.

• 56:59Speaker 06

  Oh, okay. That's so interesting, yeah, because I was also full of shit.

• 57:03Speaker 07

  It was a completely different you.

• 57:05Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 57:05Speaker 07

  It was an old you.

• 57:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 07

  It was like reading a letter from my old friend.

• 57:11Speaker 06

  You could see I was back.

• 57:12Speaker 07

  Totally.

• 57:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, that malevolent spirit had gone.

• 57:15Speaker 07

  And I called you immediately.

• 57:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 07

  And I was like, you're clean. And you went, how do you know? And I said, you're humble. And you, and you were like, I am. And I was like, right, I'm coming. It was like wild horses couldn't keep me away. I was like, get me to you immediately. Came to your flat, like, I remember being at your flat. And us just being like straight back to normal again. You were so different.

• 57:40Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:41Speaker 07

  It was incredible. And I was all in, like.

• 57:47Speaker 06

  We're here.

• 57:48Speaker 07

  Right back together again.

• 57:49Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 07

  Um, like, like we'd never been apart.

• 57:52Speaker 06

  Like we'd never been apart.

• 57:53Speaker 07

  So what happened then? Because you obviously had had no contact with the kids.

• 58:00Speaker 06

  No.

• 58:00Speaker 07

  Renshaw had given up on you.

• 58:02Speaker 06

  Renshaw given up on me.

• 58:03Speaker 07

  So how did you start to rebuild the trust with Renshaw?

• 58:08Speaker 06

  Primarily from staying clean.

• 58:10Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 06

  And like you said, you know when somebody's clean or not. You know. So he knew. And I was allowed to come and say goodnight to the children and read them a story. When I was three months clean.

• 58:25Speaker 07

  That had been my dream.

• 58:26Speaker 06

  That had been my dream.

• 58:27Speaker 07

  Standing outside the house on the street.

• 58:29Speaker 06

  Exactly. That had been my dream. And just, just to say, to preempt that, that for that three months clean, I'd had to have urine tests by the doctor to show Renshaw that I was clean.

• 58:39Speaker 07

  Right.

• 58:42Speaker 06

  And when I got to that three month stage, I was allowed to come and read the children a story. Sometimes I'd stay for supper.

• 58:51Speaker 06

  Um.

• 58:52Speaker 07

  Wow.

• 58:53Speaker 06

  Yeah, sometimes he'd cook me supper in my old home with the children upstairs. Yeah, like, wow. Sometimes, after a while, we'd end up in bed together. And I.

• 59:07Speaker 07

  Wait, wait.

• 59:07Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 59:09Speaker 07

  What, like, having sex?

• 59:10Speaker 06

  Having sex, yeah.

• 59:12Speaker 07

  Sorry, Renshaw, that he won't watch this.

• 59:14Speaker 06

  He won't watch it.

• 59:15Speaker 07

  No, okay, it's fine.

• 59:16Speaker 06

  We can talk about it. It's fine, you'll never know.

• 59:19Speaker 07

  Um, but what, what, did he ever make you any promises then?

• 59:23Speaker 06

  Never. In fact, I was, I always thought, once I'd cleaned, I had this dream that we'd get back together. Because usually when people divorce, it's because, you know, there's been adultery or they've just fallen out of love with each other. But that wasn't the case with us.

• 59:39Speaker 07

  No, it wasn't.

• 59:40Speaker 06

  We, we still loved each other, but this, this, there was this huge other bloody great thing there.

• 59:45Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 59:46Speaker 06

  And now that thing had gone, we, we hoped. Um, so the love was still there, but there was, the trust needed to be earned.

• 59:55Speaker 07

  Damaged.

• 59:55Speaker 06

  It was damaged, exactly. And then it slightly changed because then they were allowed, after, I can't remember how many months, six or nine months, they were then allowed to stay with me. So he would come around and read them a story. Now, bear in mind, I hadn't been out for about three years, you know. My, my going out involved going to a, a, a meeting. And somebody had called me up and said, did I want to go to some kind of sporadic event, the V and A? And I said, yes, terrified, terrified. And I remember getting all dressed up, I didn't know, I hadn't dressed up for so long, I didn't know what to wear. I didn't even know what I liked anymore. I was like, oh, God, I look ridiculous.

• 1:00:38Speaker 06

  And he came around to say goodnight and read the children a story to my flat. And I opened the door and I was all dolled up. And he was like, bloody hell, where are you going? I said, well, I'm going to this, you know, sporadic event. And he said, as you know, he loves motorbikes. And he said, do you want me to take you on the bike? Because it'll be a nightmare, the traffic, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I remember thinking, oh, God, because I remember he'd said to me before, it's not going to happen again. Oh, my God, huge part of the story I missed. The day before the decree absolute had come through. Yes. I remember calling him saying, oh, my God, the absolutes have come through. That's it. It's over. That's it. So. The divorce. The divorce was done. It was dusted. Yesterday.

• 1:01:23Speaker 06

  Yesterday. Today, that's why I went out. I thought I cannot sit in my flat being miserable. I've got to get, I've got to try and start pulling a life back together that doesn't involve wrench for myself. So he, he comes around, oh, do you want to lift the, the V and A? Yes, okay. And we walked in and I just remember being met by this kind of sea of glamour. And I just thought, I can't, I just can't, I cannot deal with this. I'm not ready for this yet. So I said, I can't do it, Wrench. I can't do it. And he said, let's go out for dinner. I was like, why would we do that? And he said, to celebrate the end of our marriage, to celebrate the divorce. And I was like, oh, I don't know

• 1:02:07Speaker 06

  if I can do that. But I just wanted to be with him. So I was like, I feel a bit weird about it, but okay. And he went to this restaurant that we had a relationship with, but, but, you know, birthdays, anniversaries, we would go to this restaurant and we went there and I said, it was a Friday night, you'll never get a table. And he got a table. So we walked into the restaurant, sat down. I felt very sad, you know, because I, I wanted to be with this man and here we were, celebrating our divorce. And he said something, I need to tell you. And I was like, oh, my God, he's met someone else, you know, some like

• 1:02:50Speaker 06

  supermodel and, you know, still those old messages, you're not good enough, you're not good enough. I thought, oh, God, here we go. I don't know if I can cope with this. And he said, do you want to try again? I was like, what, what? And he said, do you wanna try again? And I said, yes. Absolutely, yes. But I said also, do you think that we'll be able to? So much has happened. There's so much from water under the bridge. Can you forgive me? You know, can we forgive each other in some instances?

• 1:03:33Speaker 06

  And he was like, well, let's, let's try.

• 1:03:37Speaker 07

  Yes, Red Shaw.

• 1:03:39Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. So that's what we did and, and.

• 1:03:44Speaker 07

  How did that work?

• 1:03:46Speaker 06

  I moved back into the family home.

• 1:03:49Speaker 07

  How quickly?

• 1:03:51Speaker 06

  Oh, like by the weekend. You know, I, I, I booked, on the way home, I booked the removal van. I was like, not wasting any time here, he might change his mind. Oh, my God. So booked the removal van, I was, I was in there, you know. This, the dinner was on the Friday, I was, I was in there on the Saturday.

• 1:04:08Speaker 07

  I have never been more happy.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  Oh, God, nor have I.

• 1:04:11Speaker 07

  I knew, I knew the work.

• 1:04:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Speaker 07

  That you had to do, both of you, to make it work.

• 1:04:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:17Speaker 07

  But I had no doubt in my mind. I. That you would do it.

• 1:04:22Speaker 06

  I had doubt.

• 1:04:24Speaker 07

  Did you?

• 1:04:25Speaker 06

  No, no, I, not that there was love, but I thought, was there just so much? Is he, is he gonna throw stuff at me when we're angry?

• 1:04:34Speaker 07

  He did a bit.

• 1:04:34Speaker 06

  He did a bit at the beginning. He did a bit at the beginning and I just.

• 1:04:37Speaker 07

  I'm not surprised.

• 1:04:39Speaker 06

  Fair enough, you know.

• 1:04:40Speaker 07

  Like.

• 1:04:40Speaker 06

  I had to eat humble pie a lot.

• 1:04:42Speaker 07

  And you were, and can I just say also, well done, because you really did.

• 1:04:47Speaker 06

  I did, yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 07

  And you never fought back.

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:04:50Speaker 07

  And you were, you know, that was a lot.

• 1:04:53Speaker 06

  It was a lot.

• 1:04:54Speaker 07

  Because you'd done so well. And there you were, eating humble pie, even though you were doing so well.

• 1:04:59Speaker 06

  Well, yeah, there was a lot to make up for.

• 1:05:03Speaker 07

  But you were aware of that.

• 1:05:04Speaker 06

  I was aware of that and I knew that. And I knew that it was worth giving it a chance, you know, that the relationship was gonna be slightly different and. And he was making, I didn't, I didn't have a voice yet in our back when we had that second chance. I still was trying to find my voice. I didn't feel I had it yet. I didn't feel I earned it yet. But I really wanted to have another baby. And he was very anti that at the beginning and said, you know, the children who are a bit bigger then, they've gone through so much. We're getting to the stage where they're now at school all day.

• 1:05:45Speaker 06

  We can have more of a life to our, for us. Like, why don't, you know, do we really want to go back to babies? But, but for me, there was a space at the table.

• 1:05:55Speaker 07

  Yeah. And it was also, you'd be clean.

• 1:05:58Speaker 06

  I'd be clean. And I hadn't had that.

• 1:05:59Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:06:00Speaker 06

  And I wanted to do that. All the, the cake sales and the swimming galas and the PTA.

• 1:06:06Speaker 07

  Plug in.

• 1:06:07Speaker 06

  I wanted to do that because I hadn't been able to do that before. And, and I, I, it was really important to me to do that. Anyway, I got pregnant. How did I manage that? And he was very happy about it. And then we had Lucy, who's now 20, who healed so much. You know, she, I felt she was such a gift that I didn't really deserve, that I was given, was given this another chance. And amazing to be able to parent in a way

• 1:06:45Speaker 06

  that I wasn't before. Um, it was, I was just so grateful for that. I felt so lucky.

• 1:06:54Speaker 07

  And now, looking at the three of them, can't imagine life without Lucy. That's such a weird concept.

• 1:07:00Speaker 06

  Little rocket, rocket. Yeah.

• 1:07:03Speaker 07

  And then I remember you being like.

• 1:07:08Speaker 07

  I I wanna get remarried.

• 1:07:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Speaker 07

  After you'd had Lucy.

• 1:07:11Speaker 06

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 1:07:12Speaker 07

  And I remember thinking, I really want him to get married. And like, I remember saying to Wrench, oh, do you think you might ask her? He'd go, Div, it's none of your business. It's none of your business. I think, God damn it. I can't, you know, can't like.

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  I know, but don't you, don't you remember? We went away for my.

• 1:07:35Speaker 07

  To New York.

• 1:07:36Speaker 06

  To New York.

• 1:07:36Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:07:36Speaker 06

  My forties. And one day he said to you, listen, I I wanna take Sarah. I think we went for three nights. I wanna take Sarah on my own tonight. And and we were like, he's definitely just, you're definitely gonna ask me. He's definitely gonna ask me. And I was like, oh, my goodness, he's definitely gonna ask me. I couldn't wait, couldn't wait. And we get to the restaurant and I was like, ah, okay, come on. And he said, I know you think I'm gonna ask you tonight, but I'm not. I'm gonna ask you when I want to ask you, not when you and Davina wants.

• 1:08:09Speaker 06

  I was like, oh, that is terribly disappointing.

• 1:08:14Speaker 06

  I was like, oh, and I remember saying to you, we were like, what? What the hell? Going the other side of the world for this and I'm not even gonna bloody do it. I couldn't believe it. And so I'd sort of given up on that.

• 1:08:25Speaker 07

  I think we both had.

• 1:08:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, we both had. And then it was Christmas. How many years ago was it? Well, if Lucy's 20 now, must have been like 16 years ago, maybe 17 years ago. It was Christmas and we were all on the bed, me, Wrench and the three kids. And they were opening their stockings, their Christmas stockings. And Wrench had done me a stocking.

• 1:08:51Speaker 06

  And one of the last presents was a wedding ring. That wedding ring. And he said, will you marry me? And I was like, oh.

• 1:09:06Speaker 07

  I don't know why I'm crying.

• 1:09:08Speaker 06

  I know, because I was so happy.

• 1:09:10Speaker 07

  I know.

• 1:09:12Speaker 06

  So, a few months later, we had a very, very small wedding. The only friends of mine that were there were you and your husband and children. And Renshaw and his brothers, and me and my brother and sister, and that was it. Because my parents weren't there, Lynas walked me down the aisle and gave them away.

• 1:09:32Speaker 07

  God, it was brilliant.

• 1:09:33Speaker 06

  Little Beachy Red, the Velveteen Rabbit, and Lucy was bridesmaid. And, yeah, it was magical. It was perfect. It was really perfect. It was the most, but what I remember is that, so how clean must I have been then? Like, I don't know, six, seven years clean or something around that, like, you know, a while. And we'd been back together, obviously, for a while. But I remember getting to be absolutely fine, excited about the wedding, and then getting to the door of the church where Lynas was waiting for me.

• 1:10:13Speaker 06

  And seeing him and just losing it. Like, I couldn't, I just couldn't stop crying. I don't know if you remember. I just thought, I'm not going to be able to get down the aisle. And I'm not a big, big crier like you.

• 1:10:24Speaker 07

  No.

• 1:10:25Speaker 06

  Like you. I, I can cry, but I just, and I, and I do quite enjoy crying, but I just, I couldn't stop crying.

• 1:10:36Speaker 07

  No, it was like a big.

• 1:10:37Speaker 06

  It was like all the things that had happened over the years, and so much had happened.

• 1:10:44Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:10:44Speaker 06

  It just felt overwhelming. It felt too much.

• 1:10:48Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 1:10:50Speaker 06

  And then getting to managing and sort of Lynas hanging on, sort of looking at me like, are you all right, Mum? And then just sort of seeing Renshaw at the end of the aisle and thinking, oh, God, there he is, you know? And here we are, after everything, after everything, here we are. Literally.

• 1:11:08Speaker 06

  The beginning and end of everything and that is the story, yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 07

  It is the most incredible love story.

• 1:11:15Speaker 06

  It is.

• 1:11:16Speaker 07

  That you withstood all of that.

• 1:11:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 07

  And you are still so in love.

• 1:11:21Speaker 06

  Still so in love. But it's also, you know, you, Wrench and I have all known each other for so long and we have all been through so much, you know, more recently with you and your boobs and your brain and there has been, it's just extraordinary to look back on all those years, nearly forty years of love and friendship and.

• 1:11:51Speaker 07

  Can I just say something actually?

• 1:11:53Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:11:54Speaker 07

  Just publicly, I'm going to acknowledge.

• 1:11:57Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:11:59Speaker 07

  Oh God. I couldn't have got through last year without you. I was really lost.

• 1:12:07Speaker 06

  It was very frightening.

• 1:12:08Speaker 07

  You, you kept me grounded. I was really in danger of losing my mind.

• 1:12:18Speaker 07

  And I couldn't have got through it without you. I'm so unbelievably grateful to you for that. Thank you.

• 1:12:26Speaker 06

  Well, I love you.

• 1:12:27Speaker 07

  I love you more.

• 1:12:28Speaker 06

  And the thing is that we've both been through those things where we thought we were going to lose each other, you know, when you had that brain tumor, I, it seemed to me there was a very real possibility that something terrible would happen.

• 1:12:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 06

  And there is nothing like something like that where things come into focus so clearly and you see what's important. And all that past that we have had with each other just comes so, and suddenly nothing else matters.

• 1:12:59Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 06

  And.

• 1:13:01Speaker 07

  And like going through everything with my dad and like Eve just, you are in the fabric of my life, your children, I said that in the foreword.

• 1:13:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 07

  Your children are in my DNA.

• 1:13:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Speaker 07

  If anything happened to you and Wrench or I'm taking them all on.

• 1:13:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, you are.

• 1:13:15Speaker 07

  Like.

• 1:13:16Speaker 06

  It's the same.

• 1:13:17Speaker 07

  I, and.

• 1:13:18Speaker 06

  We are family.

• 1:13:19Speaker 07

  We are family.

• 1:13:19Speaker 06

  We are family and sometimes.

• 1:13:21Speaker 07

  Chosen family.

• 1:13:22Speaker 06

  Chosen family and we've discussed this before, but how chosen family can be so much closer, more important. I mean.

• 1:13:31Speaker 06

  Definitely, you know, with my, with my parents and.

• 1:13:34Speaker 07

  So, Sarah.

• 1:13:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 07

  I want to end on something.

• 1:13:38Speaker 06

  Well, have you got something back there?

• 1:13:39Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:13:39Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. What is it?

• 1:13:42Speaker 07

  So.

• 1:13:42Speaker 06

  An Amazon token. No.

• 1:13:47Speaker 07

  I'm gonna read you something.

• 1:13:48Speaker 06

  Oh, God. Okay.

• 1:13:53Speaker 07

  Are you ready?

• 1:13:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:13:57Speaker 07

  Mum.

• 1:13:59Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 1:14:01Speaker 06

  Oh, God.

• 1:14:03Speaker 07

  It's very difficult to know what to say to someone who's given us so much. I'm wailing up just thinking about it.

• 1:14:12Speaker 07

  I know Mum often worries that her troubled years have fucked us up.

• 1:14:18Speaker 07

  That what she did way back then had a negative impact on our future lives. But I'm sitting here, planning a wedding with the woman of my dreams, trying to find the time in and around the job of my dreams.

• 1:14:35Speaker 07

  Beach is sitting in Paris, doing all the things we know he dreamed of doing. And Lucy is living all of our dreams, just having fun at uni without a care in the world.

• 1:14:49Speaker 07

  All I know of you is that you've given your life to us every day I can remember. You've made us feel safe and loved, and we've not questioned that ever for one second.

• 1:15:05Speaker 07

  You didn't fuck us up. You made our dreams come true.

• 1:15:12Speaker 07

  We all cried when we.

• 1:15:16Speaker 06

  Oh, my God.

• 1:15:17Speaker 07

  Linus is an amazing writer, isn't he?

• 1:15:20Speaker 06

  Yeah, such a gentle soul. Oh, that's so lovely. Thank you.

• 1:15:26Speaker 07

  That's for you.

• 1:15:27Speaker 06

  Oh, thank you so much. Oh dear.

• 1:15:32Speaker 07

  Thank you, Sarah.

• 1:15:33Speaker 06

  Oh, well, thank you for asking me. It's so funny because I thought, I thought this is gonna be so weird because like we're friends. Like we just, like I wanna chat about things that we can't talk about in front of the camera. I don't wanna talk about me and you and what, but actually it's been incredible. It's been so moving and I think because you, you know, you, you were there.

• 1:15:53Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 1:15:54Speaker 06

  It's not like I've.

• 1:15:54Speaker 07

  Well, I've, I've literally loved it so much.

• 1:15:57Speaker 06

  Have you?

• 1:15:58Speaker 07

  It's so funny. Well, round of applause, everybody, please.

• 1:16:03Speaker 06

  Well, thank you, everyone.

• 1:16:05Speaker 07

  So just in case you missed this episode here, um, if you loved this episode, I know you're gonna love that.

• 1:16:18Speaker 02

  Stonefire Knan is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery charred flatbread for any meal.

• 1:16:23Speaker 03

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 1:16:26Speaker 04

  Stonefire Knan is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is, is that guy okay?

• 1:16:33Speaker 04

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 1:16:39Speaker 04

  You can share Stonefire Knan with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we gnaw.

• 1:16:48Speaker 05

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• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  At Farmers, we go out of our way to keep you in the know. Like by singing. Everything for emphasis. That, and by providing you with coverage on a page. An easy to understand language. So you know what's covered and what's not. No confusing legalese that no one gets. And full transparency. We do have to put a disclaimer at the end of this ad, though. Just being honest. That's what you get when. You have Farmers.

• 1:18:14Speaker 05

  Learn more at Farmers.com. Underwritten by Farmers Truck or Fire Insurance Exchanges or Affiliates. Products not available in every state.