The Trillion Dollar ETH Pitch | RSA+DH

The Ethereum ETF is coming. What’s the best narrative for ETH to sell to TradFi/Wall Street? Ryan and David discuss the 7 leading ETH Narratives and then have a pitch-off amongst themselves. Each of them prepared a 1-2 minute pitch and then they each spend some time unpacking each other’s pitch and analyzing each point. Bankless Citizens get to vote - whose was better? Ryan or David’s? The winner gets a bragging rights POAP. ------ 📣BANKLESS CITIZENS VOTE HERE https://www.jokerace.io/contest/base/0x0f2211f6727e85dbfae20e7dbfe57875a1f2b706 ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/13?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle ⚡️ CARTESI | LINUX-POWERED ROLLUPS https://bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance 🏠 CASA | SECURE YOUR GENERATIONAL WEALTH https://bankless.cc/Casa 🌐 TRANSPORTER | CROSS CHAINS WITH CONFIDENCE https://transporter.io/ 🔗CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 2:26 Eric Balchunas https://x.com/EricBalchunas/status/1794023427327533456 4:44 ETH Narratives https://x.com/TrustlessState/status/1795595286972383494 5:58 Ethereum is a Tokenization Platform https://twitter.com/ChainLinkGod/status/1798133271139901668 https://twitter.com/ChainLinkGod/status/1798133271139901668/photo/1 9:26 Ethereum is an app store https://twitter.com/jdorman81/status/1792927796353814640 13:56 Operating system and app store https://x.com/RasterlyRock/status/1791217181012701682 17:15 ETH is Digital Oil ​​https://twitter.com/0xkydo/status/1740750772093296938 20:37 ETH is an Internet Bond https://www.bankless.com/eth-the-internet-bond 23:38 Programmable Money https://x.com/econoar/status/1124311475428790273 25:59 "ETH is Ultra Sound Money" https://twitter.com/drakefjustin/status/1352734923703123968 31:44 Pitches + Debrief/Analysis + Vote https://www.jokerace.io/contest/base/0x0f2211f6727e85dbfae20e7dbfe57875a1f2b706 44:05 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  The Ethereum ETF is coming. So what is the best narrative for ETH, at least for TradFi, for Wall Street? Welcome to another Bankless Takes. David, we're going to have a pitch off today. What's in store for today's episode?

• 0:14David Hoffman?

  We're going to do what I think Bankless does best, which is help define, help shape the narrative for ETH, but this time for an audience that we don't typically talk to when we pitch ETH. We have, I think, previously talked about how to pitch ETH to the crypto native, to the people who really get it. But what about the people who just want to understand why they should buy the Ethereum ETF, which means they're not taking self custody, they don't necessarily appreciate the value of self custody, they also have a very diversified portfolio, and they're generally from an older generation. So how do we pitch ETH to these people, this cohort of what is a very large investor base? We're going to discuss on the episode, the seven different leading ETH narratives, and then Ryan and I are going

• 0:59David Hoffman?

  to have a competition where each one of us has presented a pitch that we are going to pitch to each other and also you, the Bankless Nation, and then Bankless citizens get a role here. You guys, if you are a Bankless citizen, you get to vote on who had the better pitch. Winner gets bragging rights, which I'm sure you're familiar what bragging rights are, but bragging rights is also a one of one PoEPT that we're going to make our designers currently designing. And either Ryan or I will be the holder of the bragging rights PoEPT as a result of the Bankless citizens vote. And I would like to say, speaking from how I feel, I do not want to be the non

• 1:41David Hoffman?

  holder of the bragging rights PoEPT. I would like to be the holder of the bragging rights PoEPT. That's just how I feel.

• 1:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, not going to lie, man, I'm a little bit nervous coming to this episode because I've seen you train for fights before, all right? I saw you train for your Nick Carter fight, and it was like day and night for like months, getting like beat up in the gym, like coming on these episodes bruised and beaten. So God knows what you had to do in order to construct this ETH narrative pitch. I prepared mine, full disclosure, I prepared mine about an hour before we started recording because I procrastinated.

• 2:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  I left at the very last minute. I thought it would be easy, but it's hard. It's actually hard to get a simple coherent, like one to two minute pitch down for either the asset. It's kind of like, there's so many things you can say about Ethereum. That is the art of this.

• 2:26David Hoffman?

  And this actually goes back all the way to, I think, a tweet that really inspired this whole thing from Eric Balchunas, who tweeted out, "One of the challenges for Ether ETFs penetrating the 60 former boomer world is distilling its purpose and value in an easy to understand soundbite, a la Bitcoin is digital gold." Does a simple one liner exist like that for Ether? What is the Bitcoin is digital gold one liner for Ether? Now, this is, we're going to give a 60 second pitch, so much more than a one liner. But this is the beauty of Bitcoin, and I also think the beauty of Ethereum is that Bitcoin is so trivially easy to understand, that you can put it into a one line soundbite, and Ethereum is so incredibly expansive that you kind of need a 60 second pitch.

• 3:09David Hoffman?

  So we're doing the 60 second pitch format here today.

• 3:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, is your hope, though, that we can get this to one, a one sentence soundbite? Because you sort of need to in order for a meme to travel, like one single line.

• 3:23David Hoffman?

  I think the Ethereum one single line comes from a more general, broad understanding of what Ethereum is. Does the internet, does the internet have one single line? I'm not sure it does.

• 3:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Good retort, good retort.

• 3:36David Hoffman?

  But that's just because like, everyone knows what the internet is.

• 3:38Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, and I'll say that going, going into this episode. I think that there will be eras or seasons where different lines are more applicable than others. Like, so in the 1990s internet, when you're trying to explain the concept, you might've said something like, "The internet is e-commerce," right? And that would have been accurate, and that would have been one sliver of it. But obviously, just a small segment of the total value that the internet would, would eventually drive. And the internet became kind of like a bundle of multiple different use cases. I see, I see this very similarly with Ethereum, where there will be eras where one meme or one one liner works, and that will fade out and another will supersede it, or that will fade into the background. And like, we'll have different narratives every couple of

• 4:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Years. In fact, David, that's actually been a Bitcoiner charge, like Bitcoin maximalist charge of Ethereum over the ages, which I think is somewhat interesting, which is like, you guys keep changing your narrative. I thought it was this and now it's this. And I think the answer to that is mostly, no, it is that and it is also this.

• 4:40David Hoffman?

  It's yes and.

• 4:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's yes and.

• 4:44David Hoffman?

  So the pursuit of defining all of the narrative started with a tweet where I labeled some of the first four that came to my head. Digital oil, internet bond, programmable money, tokenization platform. These are definitely some of the narratives that we've put out here at Bankless. And then after this tweet, I went on a hunt for even further validation of some of these same narratives and also adding new ones into this list. So I've come up with seven different perspectives, seven different angles. It's really six and a half of ways of viewing Ether, the asset, and in no particular order. But I did start with Ethereum as a tokenization platform first, because I want to introduce that one as one of the most new and novel

• 5:25David Hoffman?

  perspectives of the ETH pitch. When you and I would write the ETH pitch, Ryan, we wouldn't really talk about Ethereum as a tokenization platform, because if you're gonna, if you're gonna sell Ether, it's weird to start talking about Ethereum. You and I have been so focused on Ether, the asset, but I don't think that nuance really matters if you only have 60 seconds. So talking about what Ethereum does and talking about what its native currency Ether is, is almost synonymous for people who are actually kind of naive to the fact that there is a difference there. Ether and Ethereum is basically the same thing. And tokenization as a candy line, as like a nerd snipe, as something that is enjoyed by many, many people, I think tokenization

• 6:08David Hoffman?

  has broad appeal. And this is the perspective that Zach Ryan's Chainlink God puts into perspective here, where he says, every single financial asset in the world will be tokenized on-chain. Tokenize the world, tokenize everything. This has been a meme that has persisted across all crypto cycles. He continues, there's no longer a question of if, but a question of when. Larry Fink, co-founder and CEO of BlackRock, has spoken. Publicly on numerous occasions about this inevitability. When regulatory clarity continues to be a pain point, Larry got both Bitcoin and ETH ETF approves by an anti crypto SEC. Beyond that, BlackRock has launched its own tokenized fund on Ethereum mainnet now at

• 6:47David Hoffman?

  half a billion dollars AUM, invested in Circle, which issues USDC, invested in Securitize, one of the leading tokenized asset issuers, and used both Circles and Securitize tech stack to issue Buildl. There's no doubt in my mind that Buildl won't be the last fund BlackRock tokenizes on a public blockchain. Okay, so really leaning into the tokenization platform of Ethereum and also using the credibility of BlackRock. And Larry Fink, he's not a crypto native. He has like

• 7:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, he's not.

• 7:16David Hoffman?

  Boomer customers. And so I think it's worth taking a leaf out of his book to understand how he is using and also pitching ETH to his customers. And so Ethereum as a tokenization platform, I think, needs to be a pretty core component of what any typical pitch about ETH is to TradFi.

• 7:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so that is the first of seven narratives that you think are contenders to be one of the key narratives to explain this, to give your 60 second to one minute, to two minutes, because David, spoiler alert, I think mine's closer to two minutes now. So give me some grace there. But like a tokenization platform, this is not usually the pitch you're saying to crypto natives, but might be like much more resonant to TradFi. And indeed, it was certainly that the pitch Larry Fink has given. And of course, you know, the customers of Larry Fink are going to be the buyers of ETFs, right? BlackRock is one of the main issuers of the Ethereum ETF. They're the leading issuer for the Bitcoin ETF in terms of AUM.

• 8:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  So like, you'd think this guy knows how to sell it. So tokenized, tokenization platform, it's not exactly going bankless, is it? But it is something that Ethereum provides, and maybe that's the leading narrative for this platform.

• 8:32David Hoffman?

  Totally. And I think we all kind of felt something in our hearts when we learned about the idea of tokenization. And so it's also reminding people that like, let's go back to your first days in crypto and like, what really got you excited about crypto? And tokenization, the idea of tokens is definitely up there.

• 8:51Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, you know, one thing I used to say when I was new to learning about Ethereum is that Bitcoin was a mono asset platform, just one asset, just Bitcoin. And Ethereum's a poly asset platform, multiple assets. So that is a similar idea to tokenization, I guess.

• 9:08David Hoffman?

  Going to narrative number two, angle number two. Ethereum is an app store. And this is coming out of Jeff Dorman, who put out a tweet saying, "Attention, BlackRock, VanEck, digital assets and Bitwise. Once the ETH ETF goes live, please erase the words 'supercomputer, ultrasound money, internet bond' from your memory. This does not resonate with anyone. What does? Ethereum is an app store." And this is an angle that I've seen many people take Ethereum as an app store. And it's again, something that is familiar to people who do not have a crypto background, who don't know what Ethereum is. And so it's important to know that if we are pitching Ether to people with very little familiarity about what's going on in our world, then we need to pull some knowledge from other

• 9:51David Hoffman?

  corners of their brain that they already have, pre-existing knowledge. People know what an app store is. People know what a developer platform is. The idea of Ethereum as a tech platform that grows the more code is written and the more that developers build applications on it, that is something that is familiar to them. And we can like debate about like, well, is Ethereum really an app store? And I think if you go down into the nuances, we're missing the forest for the trees. Like, simply put, it's a developer platform, just like the app store, and it grows in utility over time, the more developers there are.

• 10:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  I saw, we saw on a roll up recently, Vance Spencer pitched this pretty effectively in a conversation with Bloomberg where he said Ethereum is an app store and then he mentioned some of the various apps. And there was like this slide shown on screen where it showed like AVE and like Compound and Maker and basically all of these different logos for the types of money apps. So I think there is some familiarity there and you can like point to actual apps that are deployed on the Ethereum app store and say, oh, you want a collateralized loan? Go here. Oh, you want a stablecoin? Here's USDC. Go over here. Oh, you want like a payment app? Go over here. And so I do think that is pretty resonant. And as you say, David, like, everyone knows what an app store is. Is there a human

• 11:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  alive that you're pitching an Ethereum ETF to that hasn't used the app store, that doesn't have like dozens of apps on their, on their smartphone, right? Like, none of them. So this is a schematic that that kind of works and links to the last very successful compute revolution, which was the mobile revolution and just like Ethereum could be as big as the iPhone, you know? It calls into, into mind that.

• 11:34David Hoffman?

  I remember when we had Mark Cuban on the podcast during the middle of 2021, he was talking about giving us the perspective that he had where he was sharing with some of, some of his friends of his age who had downloaded Coinbase and was asking Mark Cuban, like, hey, where's like the DeFi apps? Where, where are all the apps? Thinking that there was like an app tab in the Coinbase app, not understanding that it's actually a little bit like it's one dimension larger than that. But people are ready for this. Like, people are ready for the app store perspective. They just, you know, in order to be perfectly accurate, you kind of have to tweak it and get a little bit more educated. But people are so ready to think of Ethereum as an app store.

• 12:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  They are ready for that. The way that, the weakness of this narrative, I think, is it quickly falls down when they're like, where's the app store? You can't like point them to one central location to go like download their, their app or go look at the reviews or, you know, just click and start using. It's just, it's much more like the internet where you have to export on your own and there's rough edges. There's not one central App store type of experience brought to you by like some commercialized UX, you know, champion of the world. It's just very rough.

• 12:45David Hoffman?

  I do agree with you that that's where the metaphor breaks down, but we also have to remember who the audience is. The audience is buying the Ether ETF, which you cannot use in any of the apps.

• 12:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, they're not users, so we don't have to worry about that.

• 12:57David Hoffman?

  They're not users. They're not custoding anything. Yeah. And so like, they're like, oh, Ethereum is an app store. Great. I'll buy it. Like not considered like, they're not actually going to like, take it to the apps because they're buying the ETF. And so they just want exposure, which is great, which is so like, you can use some of the lack of sophistication of crypto nativity to actually make this pitch, I think, easier, not harder.

• 13:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. So that's number two. Ethereum is an app store. What's number three, David?

• 13:22David Hoffman?

  I called this a six and a half, not seven. Number three, this is coming from Ryan Rasmussen out of Bitwise, who says Ethereum is an operating system and an app store for crypto applications. So really adding the operating perspective here to the Ethereum pitch. And I think this is where we also get the opportunity to really differentiate Bitcoin and teach whoever is hearing these pitches and give them a little bit stronger foundation. You know, Ethereum is not digital gold. Bitcoin just does Bitcoin. It doesn't hold apps. It just is Bitcoin, the asset. Ethereum is an operating system and a developer platform. And that's also what many of the other blockchains are like. Like this is where Pomp, when he was on like Fast Money,

• 14:04David Hoffman?

  talked about like all the other smart contracting platforms that are out there, you know, Ethereum, Solana, like all the other ones. And so you can also gain some assurances, some confidence in whoever you are pitching this to by their ability to be familiar with like the idea of, oh, Bitcoin is separate and it's unique because it's just digital gold. It's just an asset. But Ethereum is an operating system, which is something that you're familiar with. And you build apps on it, which is something you're familiar with. And so I think leaning into the operating system that is Ethereum helps embolden the tech platform angle that I think we definitely want with Ether. And also I think helps people become more familiar with the landscape of all the entire crypto applications or crypto platforms.

• 14:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  I know coming into this, you asked, hey, Brian, do you have another one to add to this list of seven? And I told you I didn't have one, but let me just add one now because this is maybe a half step, right? You're just saying rather than just Ethereum as an app store, Ethereum is an app store. It's an operating system as well. Let me give you the full, a full step, which is maybe a separate narrative. What about Ethereum as the, the internet of value? And this, this is kind of like the idea that rather than just an operating system, it's kind of like the internet only for things that have value. And so it's, it's more rough, it's more rugged, it's more, you kind of have to surf it and browse it and that sort of thing. And it's permissionless, anyone can deploy to it.

• 15:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think that is similar to the, the app store, but also different because the internet is not just a sandbox, you know, constrained by, by one company with like this walled garden type of environment, but it's like much more free form, like anyone can deploy, anyone can expand to it. So maybe that's another narrative that gets us the, the full seven here, David, but it's pretty related to this operating system or app store type of idea. Ethereum, the internet of value.

• 15:52David Hoffman?

  Totally. My commentary on that one would be it definitely fits and it's a more pure representation. And I like it's a little more crypto native, but then we've also moved away from familiarity. Like internet of value is another way to say like operating system. That's a little bit more true to what Ethereum is, but then you also lose some familiarity and some like pre-existing knowledge. And so I think that's something that like a, somebody hearing this pitch could get to an aha moment about. But I think if I'm just like a 60, you know, 60 year old person with like my savings and you're pitching me a blockchain app store versus internet of value. I think blockchain app store is going to be a little bit more resonant.

• 16:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  I agree too, like internet of value feels so amorphous, right? Like what is value anyway? That word value like, it's almost like internet of assets might be better, but let's go to number four. What's number four?

• 16:41David Hoffman?

  Number four, ETH is digital oil. Now, there's one of these pitches that I'm going to say we should not definitely do. And there's pros and cons of all of these pitches. And so I'm not going to say that Ethereum is digital oil is like the perfect pitch, but it's definitely worth talking about as a perspective, especially if we are really looking for that like one liner that Eric Balchunas was really asking for. If Bitcoin is digital gold, then what is the commodity? What is the resource that Ethereum is? Ethereum is digital oil, is literally called gas. It is the thing that funds and powers the application that is on Ethereum. When you make a transaction on Ethereum to do some app, somebody's computers somewhere in the world starts flops. It starts doing some flops.

• 17:26David Hoffman?

  It actually starts doing some computation and you need to consume ether. You need to consume the oil to power those crypto applications. And so it's not perfect because it's going to develop a lot further questions. But in terms of just like if we're putting things into like perfect commodity like resources, oil, I think, is the correct comparison for gold. So Bitcoin is digital gold, then Ethereum is digital oil.

• 17:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  For the ETH bulls, it also has this nice property in that it's like almost a 7X larger than the total market cap of gold. So gold market cap is about 17 trillion, at least according to this estimate right here. The market cap of oil, if you multiply all the barrels of oil by about $70 per barrel, you get 115 trillion. So a lot larger than oil. And certainly, oil being kind of a consumptive good is certainly resonant with the idea of gas. So bigger market cap, the idea of gas, it's not bad. You're not talking about Ethereum, the network in this case, though. You are very squarely talking about ether, the asset, or just ETH.

• 18:35David Hoffman?

  Yeah, exactly. And even though it probably generates further questions and a little bit of confusion in your listener, at least put some in the in the frame of mind as like, well, you know, from from some perspectives, ether is meant to be consumed. Like, you are supposed to burn ether to use the applications. That is its purpose. And some people like the productivity and the GDP association that comes with like some crypto asset being being oil. A lot of people don't like the idea of a deflationary asset. Like, they have been trained to think that money should inflate. They have been trained to think that an inflation-based economy is it produces

• 19:15David Hoffman?

  is better producing of value and resources. And so some people just resonate with the idea of oil, I think, more than a than a gold or a fixed market cap asset.

• 19:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  It does also, now that Ethereum does have the burn in place, right? It does kind of map nicely to you. You have to burn oil in order to get things done, and you have to burn ETH in order to cause movement, cause, you know, pay for transactions on the Ethereum networks. That's nice as well. I'll admit that for for myself, David, I've ebbed and flowed with respect to this narrative. Like, there are times where I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's right. And other times where I'm like, I hate this narrative. Like, this is worth Ethereum's not oil at all. It is a non-sovereign store of value in the same way Bitcoin is. It's kind of like a money. It's I've gone back and forth on this. But I feel like full cycle, when I zoom out and look at the context, it's not bad. I kind of like this. Ethereum is oil, or ether is oil.

• 20:02David Hoffman?

  Okay, we're starting to get into what I would call some of the worst narratives that are still helpful. And so worse, maybe for like presenting ether as a first time to a first timer. Maybe these narratives start to come in further down someone's journey of understanding.

• 20:18Ryan Sean Adams?

  And worse for TradFi specifically is what you're saying.

• 20:20David Hoffman?

  Worse for TradFi, worse for the current audience. Yeah. This is a narrative that we're about to present that I think Bankless, you and I have thoroughly enjoyed. But it has come after just years of like education and perspectives and exploration of what Ethereum is. And that's ether as an internet bond. If we have the Ethereum stake rate at, what is it now, 3.2% for this internet native store of value asset that's used as a collateral in DeFi? Well, the most risk-off thing you can do that's also highly exposed to the crypto economy is buy ETH and stake it. Buy your crypto asset, buy your money, buy your digital oil, whatever, stake it to Ethereum and you get the internet bond. You get the bond, the stake rate of ETH.

• 21:02David Hoffman?

  And since Ether, the asset, is the foundation of so many applications in the DeFi landscape, the internet bond is the yield rate that transcends all of DeFi. This one, once again, definitely requires some prerequisite knowledge to really make this angle resonate with people. It definitely also requires understanding what DeFi is and how Ether is a money in DeFi. But this is one that we've enjoyed and I know that crypto natives also enjoy it, the more that they understand Ethereum as a financial system.

• 21:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, yeah, I also enjoy it, David. So there's lots of good things we could say about it. Like, it's definitely a differentiator from Bitcoin and the key, like, ability to stake Ether is kind of much different than Bitcoin. Also, you get to comp it to, like, what's the value of sovereign bonds around the world? Something like 70 trillion? Okay, and so the idea of Ethereum being sort of like a nation-state, only a network state, that secures property rights? Like, we could geek out on that for many episodes of Bankless, and indeed we have. So the parallels and the analogs are really good here. And so I definitely like the Ether as an internet bond for a crypto native audience who's really

• 22:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  deeply trying to understand how we're securing property rights inside of these crypto economic systems. That said, I totally agree with you. It is like among the worst narratives to present to TradFi and an ETH buyer, not least of which because they don't get any yield in Ethereum ETF right now.

• 22:32David Hoffman?

  Not yet.

• 22:32Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, all they get is the asset, right? So they can't even, they can't even stake this. And when you say internet bond, what, like, what do you actually mean? A bond of the internet? Like, they're not-

• 22:42David Hoffman?

  Because a bond is supposed to come from a government or a corporation.

• 22:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Exactly. And they haven't listened to, you know, dozens of Bankless episodes telling them why this is like similar to a, you know, a nation-state. And so it requires too much in terms of fundamentals to easily articulate this to somebody with Wall Street knowledge.

• 23:03David Hoffman?

  All right, second to last, I think this one is actually a pretty strong one, but again, not necessarily something I would lead with. Programmable money. And this, I want to note that this tweet is from 2019, this tweet from Eric Connor. He says, "The original Ethereum vision of programmable money is the strongest narrative and the one that will translate best to the mainstream. Quit looking elsewhere." Programmable money. If Bitcoin is digital gold, then Ethereum is programmable money. And this gets into the idea of like smart contracts and an app store, because like, you know, apps are programs. And then Ether is the money that goes through the programs. It also alludes to the fact that like, well, there's other crypto assets out there that aren't programmable. Oh yeah, that's Bitcoin. Bitcoin, not programmable. Ether, programmable.

• 23:47David Hoffman?

  And I don't think this really helps deliver an all encompassing vision of Ether or Ethereum, but it does. It's like, I think the only way to really get at what is Ether, what is Ethereum, is from, is from so many different angles, right? That's why we're talking about seven different angles. And this is a very valid one. This is a very simple one. You already know Bitcoin. You already know it's a digital asset on the network. It runs on a thing called a blockchain. Ether is the same thing, but it's programmable, implying that Bitcoin's not, and implying that, you know, you can do things with the programs.

• 24:17Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I do like this. It does resonate with me. However, I feel like it misses something in communicating the ETH narrative to the audience, which is like, it doesn't necessarily imply operating system, or app store, or like platform. When I just hear the term like programmable money in a vacuum without knowing everything that you just said, I might just think it's just one mono asset that I can write if then statements on. And like, does not necessarily imply that there will be all sorts of different apps and different tokens and different assets, and even chains that can be launched on top of this. So it's not, I don't think it encompasses the full vision of what could, like, I would

• 25:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  even prefer, I think, the app store type of analogy to programmable money, because it feels much more rich and resonant, even if it's not exactly accurate.

• 25:12David Hoffman?

  Yeah. And like I said, I think a full holistic understanding of what Ether is requires all of these narratives, not just like one. We're just kind of going through the ones by strength. And this is, we're coming up to our number seven are the last one, which I think is going to be the weakest narrative, which you should not use. And that is ETH is ultrasound money, which has been the funny narrative that many in the Ethereum community has used for a long time, including ourselves. And I think it has been a great narrative while the industry understood what sound money was and we would be able to poke fun at Bitcoiners. The idea of sound money versus ultrasound money came from an era in crypto in which it was basically just the Bitcoin community and the Ethereum community.

• 25:56David Hoffman?

  Solana hadn't even gone live yet. Like the only, the other avalanche was like the other blockchain that was out there and had a community, but very few other communities exist. And ultrasound money was strictly a narrative to counteract Bitcoiner narratives. It was a narrative about the crypto industry for the crypto industry. It was supposed to stay insular into the crypto community. So I would not suggest if you're trying to sell ETH to TradFi, to BlackRock, to your parents, don't call it ultrasound money. They won't get it.

• 26:25Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, don't. It's super, you know, 2019, 2020s crypto wars. And this meme sort of came out in 2021 as a reaction to many in the Bitcoin, on the Bitcoin side, saying, well, Ethereum is just like, you can change the supply at a whim. It's just like fiat. It's just like a central bank coin. The fact that you stake it, you know, even is further evidence that this is just like a fiat type of system. And you just consume the gas, ETH as gas, as you go. You don't need to buy ETH in order to store value. You store your value in secure assets in non, like store value assets like Bitcoin and just buy ETH as you need it to pay for compute. Right?

• 27:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  And so this was when Ethereum's monetary policy was really being hardened and its issuance schedule and like the realization that Ether could be a store of value asset, but is very insular to the crypto community and is not, not the way to export our narrative to the broader world.

• 27:25David Hoffman?

  Hundred percent. Okay, those are the seven different perspectives that I thought was pretty useful in forming my pitch. And so, without further ado, Ryan, shall we get to the pitches?

• 27:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Totally should, David. And I'm too curious as to which of those narratives you used, or maybe you came up with a David Hoffman special number eight narrative?

• 27:43David Hoffman?

  I might have, I might have.

• 27:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  So I can't wait to hear your pitch. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible, including our recommended crypto exchange for buying your Ether, no matter what narrative you subscribe to. That is Kraken. Go create an account.

• 27:56David Hoffman?

  If you want a crypto trading experience backed by world-class security and award-winning support teams, then head over to Kraken, one of the longest-standing and most-secure crypto platforms in the world. Kraken is on a journey to build a more accessible, inclusive, and fair financial system, making it simple and secure for everyone, everywhere, to trade crypto. Kraken's intuitive trading tools are designed to grow with you, empowering you to make your first or your hundredth trade in just a few clicks. And there's an award-winning client support team available 24/7 to help you along the way, along with a whole range of educational guides, articles, and videos. With products and features like Kraken Pro and Kraken NFT Marketplace and a seamless app to bring it all together, it's really the perfect place to get your complete crypto experience. So check out the simple, secure,

• 28:39David Hoffman?

  and powerful way for everyone to trade crypto, whether you're a complete beginner or a seasoned pro. Go to kraken.com/banklist to see what crypto can be. Not investment advice, crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cello is the mobile-first and EVM-compatible blockchain that's built for the real world and designed for fast, low-cost payments worldwide, driving real-world use cases like Opera MiniPay, one of the fastest-growing Web3 wallets with over 2 million users across Africa. Cello is seeing a meteoric rise with over 375 million transactions and a million monthly active users. Not to mention Tether and Circle just deployed native USDT and USDC on Cello, supported by leading exchanges like Binance. And now, Cello is looking to come home to Ethereum as a Layer 2. With a game-changing proposal, Core contributors at C-Labs aims to leverage Optimism's OP stack, pioneering a transition as the biggest

• 29:23David Hoffman?

  L1 to become a Layer 2, with Testnet arriving as early as summer 2024. With the Cello Layer 2, gas fees will stay low, and users can even pay for gas using ERC20 tokens, including native USDC and USDT. Sending crypto to phone numbers. Across wallets using social connect. But Cello is a community governed protocol. Make your VORs hurt in the Cello forum to shape the future of Ethereum. Follow at Cello on Twitter and explore the ecosystem built for the real world on cello.org/quest. Are you worried about the security of your cross-chain transactions? Cross-chains with confidence using Transporter, the revolutionary token bridging app designed to give you peace of mind. Powered by Chainlink CCIP, Transporter is your trusted gateway for securely moving assets like ETH, native USDC, and LINGK and so many more across some of your favorite blockchains.

• 30:07David Hoffman?

  Over $2.8 billion has been hacked from token bridges to date. Transporter puts a stop to this by ensuring your transfers are protected by the most robust security features available. Chainlink CCIP provides level 5 security backed by multiple decentralized oracle networks and an independent risk management network. Transporter also provides real-time tracking throughout your transaction with its newly engineered user experience, so you'll never have to second guess the safety or location of your assets ever again. And the best part, Transporter makes it simple. Whether you're a blockchain beginner or a seasoned trader, Transporter's intuitive interface lets you execute cross-chain transactions with just a few clicks. No additional fees, just a low cost for using CCIP which can be paid in LINGK or your blockchain's native gas token.

• 30:50David Hoffman?

  But don't just take my word for it, see for yourself why Transporter offers a stress-free bridging experience. Experience the future of token bridging at transporter.io and just send it. All right, Ryan, how do we decide who goes first, who goes second?

• 31:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Do you want to rock, paper, scissors? Or should we flip a coin or what?

• 31:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah, let's rock, paper, scissors.

• 31:08Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really?

• 31:08David Hoffman?

  Just one and done? One and done?

• 31:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, one and done.

• 31:10David Hoffman?

  On the camera?

• 31:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yep. Rock, paper, scissors, shoot. Paper. So that means I get my preference.

• 31:18David Hoffman?

  The latency is weird. Okay, so I got paper, Ryan had scissors, so you get to choose.

• 31:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, you go first, David. I want second mover advantage, like Ethereum has. To Bitcoin.

• 31:28David Hoffman?

  Okay, just as a reminder, if you are a bankless citizen who is holding a 2022 PoAP or later, so 2023, 2024, or you're a gauntlet NFT holder, you have voting rights on our joke race contest, which voting is now open.

• 31:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, boy.

• 31:43David Hoffman?

  So, all citizens who fit that criteria have one vote. There are 8,000 something Ethereum addresses that are eligible for voting. And so, please vote for whoever you think has the better pitch. And remember, it's very important that this is a pitch for people who would buy Ether ETF, who would buy the Ether ETF. This isn't for like getting people on-chain. This is for people who BlackRock is talking to. It's not for you, it's for them. It's for your parents and your grandparents. All right, you ready?

• 32:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm ready, man. Go for it.

• 32:14David Hoffman?

  All right, here we go. Ethereum is like Bitcoin, but with the addition of programmability, which really changes the game that Ethereum is playing. Ethereum's programmability evolves Ethereum beyond just being a scarce digital asset to being able to host an entirely online digital economy. This programmability enables Ethereum to be a platform for financial applications. Much like how the App Store and the Google Play Store are developer platforms for consumer apps, the Ethereum blockchain is a developer platform that enables consumer financial applications that offer services that are familiar to Wall Street. Exchanges, banking, marketplaces, borrowing and lending services, even asset creation and indices products. Ethereum is an open platform for anyone to build whatever financial application that

• 32:59David Hoffman?

  they can imagine. Since Ethereum is an internet-based protocol, it has internet-scaled distribution. The applications on Ethereum are accessible to anyone with an internet connection, making these applications on Ethereum some of the most widely used and fastest-growing financial service applications that have ever existed. Demand for these on-chain applications on Ethereum produce $2 to $3 billion in yearly revenue for the protocol, which Ethereum turns into a stock buyback for its native currency ETH, which materially impacts the available supply of ETH on secondary markets, making it very price-sensitive to marginal demand. So, if you're bullish on the growth and adoption of crypto and blockchain technology at large, the Bitcoin ETF simply doesn't offer that exposure. You need the ETH ETF.

• 33:45David Hoffman?

  Thank you, thank you.

• 33:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well done, David. That was great. A+, where do I buy my Ethereum ETF, huh? I almost want to sell my regular ETH and buy the ETF now.

• 33:53David Hoffman?

  Buy just the ETF.

• 33:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that was great. All right, so tell me, you went with platform. You went with kind of open internet, like, protocol. But you didn't say the word "protocol," but you said "apps." You named a number of the actual apps, like you said, exchanges, which are big, and people are thinking about that. You also said banking, which kind of links both TradFi and sort of crypto-native type things. What narratives? It felt like you touched on a number of narratives. You definitely didn't touch on internet bond or ultrasound money or any of the internal crypto ones. But you did do some tokenization-esque stuff. You did do some app store-

• 34:36David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I said "asset creation." I didn't say the word "tokenization." That's probably a miss on my part.

• 34:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 34:42David Hoffman?

  I could have added "tokenization" in there somewhere specifically. I just said even asset creation and indices.

• 34:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, so what were you thinking? Like, what was that pitch about? What were you trying to do?

• 34:53David Hoffman?

  Okay, so I wanted to break it down into three parts. And first was apps and developer platform, which was meant to hopefully lead into being an internet economy. And so this was the thing that we didn't really talk about as a narrative in the first seven, but I think it's definitely worth like trying to trigger the imaginations of. If we're trying to be ambitious with this pitch, the thing that we should strive for is thinking of Ethereum as hosting an internet-based economy. We know that there's commerce on the internet, but we also know it's not internet-native. Like Visa, Mastercard, like Zelle, like, these aren't internet-native. Like Bitcoin is internet-native. Can we get them, can we get people to think about like internet-native GDP, an internet-native economy?

• 35:35David Hoffman?

  And that's what I was trying to get with, with like internet-scale distribution of its financial apps.

• 35:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  So that's your way to kind of, the internet economy is your way to sort of spoon-feed them a future idea of an internet bond, right? Because once you have an internet economy with its own GDP and its, you know, self-sustaining taxes and economics, then you can start to pill them on internet bond. Then they get ready, they're ready for that later.

• 36:01David Hoffman?

  Totally. Yes. Yeah. And so like first you have to get them comfortable with like commerce on Ethereum, like tokens moving around Ethereum, BlackRock tokenizing Buildul and that's moving around Ethereum. Then you like, then you can wake them up to like, well, all doing all of that costs fees. That goes into revenue for the protocol, which is issues in ETH buyback. That's why we call it gas. And then you can just like, talk about all the other things. But like, it's really true. You load up the idea of like, this sci-fi economy that's native on the internet. And then you can like, back into some of the other more complicated things. That was my thought process. It's like, getting the idea of the internet economy and Ethereum is that platform. That was like, what my goal was.

• 36:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  So open dev, like platform imply that. And then also the internet economy, like seeding them with that. And you're like, talking about some use cases that they're familiar with and apps that they're familiar with and seeding all that. That was great. Nice job, man. We sold some Ethereum ETF already. I know it.

• 37:00David Hoffman?

  Can we sell some more? Can you sell some more?

• 37:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah. Well.

• 37:03David Hoffman?

  All right. Let's hear yours, sir.

• 37:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  All right. I'll give it a try here.

• 37:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bitcoin is one asset. It's just Bitcoin. Ethereum is all possible assets. Which is bigger? Gold or all the assets in the world? Bitcoin was designed to secure one asset. Just Bitcoin. Ethereum is a general purpose platform designed to secure everything else. Stablecoins, loans, equities, bonds, derivatives, everything in finance. The word for this is tokenization. People like Larry Fink are saying every stock, bond, and asset will be tokenized on a global ledger. And even he's thinking too small. Tokenization isn't just the assets of the past. It's the assets of the future. AI compute, personal data, social status, and celebrity.

• 37:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Everything will be tokenized. Ethereum is a global computing network to tokenize and program any asset. Ethereum adds property rights to the internet. Now, tokenization can and will happen on other platforms. But Ethereum is positioned as the strongest contender to ride the tokenization wave. There's 100 million people that own ETH, 100,000 developers that actively contribute to the code. Already Ethereum settles more than the Visa network, and it's just getting started. So now let's talk about ETH. The cryptocurrency of Ethereum is called ETH. It has investable economics, including an algorithmic buyback and dividend program that drives billions per year in earnings to ETH holders. This number grows as the network expands.

• 38:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  You can build a DCF model on ETH as you would with any stock, a stock maybe like Nvidia. And because ETH is extremely secure and decentralized like Bitcoin, more and more people are seeing ETH as a complement to Bitcoin as a store of value. While Bitcoin has greater certainty of supply, Ethereum pays a dividend and is deflationary with the upside of an entire token economy. Bitcoin is exposure to digital gold. Ethereum is exposure to everything else. I own both, but if I could only pick one, I'd pick the superset. I'd pick ETH.

• 39:05David Hoffman?

  Chills. Chills. Chills. Can I tell you what I liked about that?

• 39:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 39:12David Hoffman?

  Something that we both did is we use Bitcoin as an anchor. And I think that's, you have to do that. Like you have to start at the foundation because Bitcoin is so stupid simple. And then you, I really like the idea of like Ether is the superset of that. And I think you leaned into that both at the beginning and at the very end where Bitcoin is just one asset and Ethereum is all possible assets. And I think that line that you said where Ethereum is both all like historical assets, all assets that currently exist, but then also all future assets, that kind of does the same thing that I was trying to do with saying like, open up, like think, you can definitely think what feels good to you. Like we can put, we can put your bonds on chain boomers. Like that's what, that's what the bill of fund is, but also think bigger, like also think more expansively.

• 39:56David Hoffman?

  And I think that's where the Ethereum narrative both suffers and also is its greatest strength is like you get to think bigger with Ethereum. And I think, I think you did that very, very well. It's like, think, think bigger.

• 40:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, it felt like that was worth a one liner. So it was like Larry Think thinks this is cool and he wants to tokenize everything with it, but also think about the expansive use cases he's not thinking about and TradFi is not thinking about like AI compute or social status and celebrity and that sort of thing. I do have to say this, this pit. Was heavily inspired by a five-minute pitch by Nick Shalick of Ribbit Capital. You saw that. I think we're gonna have Nick on the podcast soon. It's basically like a lot of his ideas, because he nailed it. And one thing that Nick does is he went all in on tokenization. And so I sort of did that.

• 40:42David Hoffman?

  You spend a lot of time on tokenization.

• 40:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  That was, I just picked the one thing and I just picked, you know, tokenization for my like, you know, 60 seconds to two minutes thing and I went kind of like all in on that. But yeah, I do agree, you have to start with Bitcoin, not least of which because they already have a Bitcoin ETF.

• 41:02Ryan Sean Adams?

  And so like, they're likely already buyers of Bitcoin. So there you go. That was two pretty good pitches.

• 41:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that was two pretty good pitches.

• 41:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 41:13David Hoffman?

  I think we can definitely like iterate and, and make these better and better and better. We're gonna, but like you said, we're gonna talk with Nick from Ribbit. And so I think maybe phase two of our pitches comes after we talk to him.

• 41:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  David, are you able to distill your pitch down to like one line? Do you think you could do that? Like if you were to just summarize, just give me off the cuff, just one line to summarize your pitch.

• 41:31David Hoffman?

  Internet economy, I think is like, Ethereum is digital gold. Ethereum is an internet economy.

• 41:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, so I think mine is.

• 41:39David Hoffman?

  Internet GDP, like I'm trying to get them to think GDP on the internet.

• 41:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think mine was probably like Ethereum is tokenization or Ethereum is everything else. You know, Bitcoin is digital gold, Ethereum is everything else, but yeah.

• 41:54David Hoffman?

  But everything else also doesn't like, it is a hot, it's a hotline, it's a hotline.

• 41:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's a hotline, but it doesn't work as I think in a narrative.

• 42:00David Hoffman?

  But it's everything, it's literally the opposite of what a definition is.

• 42:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, exactly. It's all the other things. Anyway, we got some more work to do to distill this down to one line.

• 42:11David Hoffman?

  For sure. All right, Bankless Nation, Bankless Citizens, since you guys are listening to this, go to Joke Race. There is a link in the show notes, there'll be a link in the Discord, and vote on who you think the better pitch, me or Ryan. And one of us will walk away at the end of voting, which will happen on Saturday. Today is Monday, June 10th, so Saturday, the 5th, I think, Saturday, end of day Saturday. So we have until end of day Saturday to decide and one lucky Bankless co-host gets to walk away with the bragging rights po app.

• 42:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  For now, that's a temporary thing. I'm sure we'll come up with some new ways to gamble this thing and exchange hands later on, some more competitions for us. I am not stepping foot in a boxing ring with you, though, David. I just want to say that's out of bounds. I would definitely get my ass handed to me. Maybe with these narrative pitches, I have at least a shot. We've got to end with this, of course. You know, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

• 43:05David Hoffman?

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• 43:49David Hoffman?

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• 44:33David Hoffman?

  to Cartesi's grant application page to apply today. And if you're not a developer, those with staked CTSI can take part in the governance process and vote on whether or not a proposal should be funded. Make sure you're vote ready by staking your CTSI before the vote. Taking self custody of your crypto is one of the most important things you can do on your bankless journey. It's also one of the hardest things to get right with huge consequences if you don't. If you want help going bankless, talk to Casa. Casa helps you take custody of your crypto assets, so you don't have to wonder whether you're doing it right. Casa is a one-stop shop for doing self custody the right way. With Casa Vaults, you can hold Ether, Bitcoins, stablecoins, all with one simple app and multiple keys for the ultimate peace of mind with a support team to help you every step of the way. But it doesn't stop at self custody, because even

• 45:18David Hoffman?

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