The Future of Rollups is Based | Mteam

Mteam explores why the future of Ethereum Rollups is inevitably based. Many people said this was the most impressive technical talk at the Bankless Summit. I don’t know what you were doing when you were 17 but I was certainly not doing anything like this. ------ 📣SPOTIFY PREMIUM RSS FEED | USE CODE: SPOTIFY24 https://bankless.cc/spotify-premium ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ 🦄UNISWAP | BROWSER EXTENSION https://bankless.cc/uniswap 🪄 MAGIC EDEN | HOME OF WEB3 https://bankless.cc/MagicEden 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🤖 dYdX | UNLIMITED LAUNCHING SOON https://bankless.cc/dYdXUnlimited 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT https://bankless.cc/toku ------ ✨ Mint the episode on Zora ✨ https://zora.co/collect/zora:0x0c294913a7596b427add7dcbd6d7bbfc7338d53f/98?referrer=0x077Fe9e96Aa9b20Bd36F1C6290f54F8717C5674E ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 4:12 History of Value Accrual 6:43 So What? 11:57 Ethereum Stats 16:51 Sustainable Value Accrual 18:26 Based Rollup Future 22:57 Questions ------ RESOURCES Mteam https://x.com/mteamisloading Presentation Slides https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XjpJSYqWu3SO0CydTfiIYYHddpvFOSz0/edit#slide=id.p1 ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures ⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03David Hoffman?

  Welcome to the Bankless Summit, a series of talks from speakers all around the Ethereum ecosystem, which were all presented at a one-day event hosted the day after DevCon called the Bankless Summit. We're releasing some of these talks on the podcast throughout the week, and the rest will be available on the Bankless Premium feed. You're about to hear from MTeam, or Matthew. MTeam is what he's known as on Twitter, who is the CEO and co-founder of Spire, a base rollup framework. MTeam, for those who don't know, is 17 years old. I actually had to write an excuse note that he could give to his school for him to miss class and go all the way from the United States to attend DevCon and to give this talk about how base rollups help each value accrual

• 0:45David Hoffman?

  and tap into Ethereum's network effects at the Bankless Summit. Many people said that this was the most impressive technical talk at the Bankless Summit. I don't know what you guys were doing when you were 17, but I wasn't doing anything like this. So, let's go ahead and hear from MTeam right now, but first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. If you want a crypto trading experience backed by world-class security and award-winning support teams, then head over to Kraken, one of the longest-standing and most-secure crypto platforms in the world. Kraken is on a journey to build a more accessible, inclusive, and fair financial system, making it simple and secure for everyone, everywhere, to trade crypto. Kraken's intuitive trading tools are designed to grow with you, empowering you to make your first or your hundredth trade in just a few clicks. And there's

• 1:28David Hoffman?

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• 2:13David Hoffman?

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• 2:58David Hoffman?

  Instead of hopping between countless sites and handling multiple wallets, just use Magic Eden. Save time and get to the meme coining faster. Plus, the ME token is coming out this quarter from the ME Foundation. If you've used any of their protocols, like the NFT platform, you can claim some. So check out Magic Eden today and watch them become a super DApp and the home of Web 3 in real time. You can get there at magiceden.io to get started.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  I am here today because I am an Ethereum bull and a Base Rollup bull, and I think that we can make these two things work together. So if you don't know what a Base Rollup is, then raise your hand.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Okay, a couple people, that's better than I thought. Raise your hand if you don't know what ETH is. Yeah, that's what I thought, okay. By the end of this presentation, you're gonna go home, fly home maybe, and you're gonna buy more ETH, because this story that I'm about to sell you is incredibly bullish. More bullish than deflationary money or yield-bearing money. All right, that's pretty boring, that's like TradFi stuff. I actually don't care.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  I am M-Team, I am Matthew, I am the co-founder of a company called Spire Labs. We build a framework that gives developers the ability to make their own based app chains a customizable and composable environment for their applications. If you want a Base Rollup, then talk to me afterwards. All right, so to understand value accrual today and the future that I'm about to promise you, we're gonna talk about value accrual so far. So Ethereum's been around for about eight years, and we've had a few different ideas about what value accrual could be.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  The first one, I think is really notable, is EIP 1559, which is the idea of the burn. We have a multidimensional fee market, made up of priority fees on top and the base fee down below. The base fee is set by the protocol and burned. The priority fee is returned to proposers to incentivize them to include transactions. Now, this has like a core thesis in its entire value accrual narrative, which is that the ETH supply, as a number of ETH goes down, then the unit value of each individual Ether goes up. As long as the market cap stays the same, that's true.

• 5:08Speaker 01

  That same idea is a part of EIP 4844 and blobs. The idea here is that Ethereum provides a valuable service, DA blobs, to rollups who purchase these. And in that purchase, what they're exchanging is the burning of some ETH. So that's the same thesis, right? As the number of ETH goes down, then the price of ETH goes up. That's about where we are today. Not a ton of work on specifically ETH value accrual other than the issuance and deflationary policy. There's some future things, though. There's MEV burn, where we use an auction that's down here to give the Ethereum protocol the ability to know how much MEV

• 5:50Speaker 01

  is being extracted by the sequencers in the system and then forcing those actors to burn some of that value. Burning ETH makes ETH price go up, or so we think. There's one thing up here, restaking, that is not an ETH value accrual thesis, but an ETH staker value accrual thesis. If you are a staker and are willing to take on slashing conditions and provide economic security, then you'll make more revenue, which you could return to people who stake their ETH with you. So this is one thing that might be useful to just consider. The question about restaking is like, is economic security actually that valuable? Will AVSs really demand economic security? So far, it's been represented somewhat empirically

• 6:35Speaker 01

  that really not that valuable. And unfortunately, not enough for the kind of billions of dollars that I want to see floating across my tokens. So what? So what have we learned? MEV burn and EIP 1559 are at odds with the rollup centric roadmap. The rollup centric roadmap will take activity and congestion and MEV activity and move it to layer twos, move it to rollups. This means this will no longer take place on layer one. So if you're bullish rollups, then unfortunately, you're bearish on the burn, because the burn is dependent on layer one activity and MEV. Now, it's very possible that there will be some MEV and some congestion taking place on layer one. But unfortunately, that will not be nearly as much as what's taking place on rollups.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Now, DA is a whole nother thing, right? Blobs are specifically designed for the rollup centric roadmap, and they work really well, except that DA is not very sticky if you just have like a centralized sequencer rollup. A centralized sequencer rollup could choose to use alt DA instead of Ethereum blobs. Justin Drake was up here talking about that kind of Ethereum DA premium. That doesn't matter unless you have, you're using other kind of features of that DA. And we'll talk about those during this presentation, but the key one is synchronous composability and things like native rollups. So we looked at all these valuable things, and researchers, Justin Drake, of course, realized something important. Ethereum is the best sequencer,

• 8:03Speaker 01

  and I'm going to make this case over the next few slides, but some of you might be asking, Ethereum is a sequencer? And the answer is yes. Ethereum has been a sequencer for the past eight years. Every consensus protocol that reaches consensus on inclusion and ordering is doing sequencing. Ethereum is sequencing Ethereum mainnet. So you know, you're like, of course, obviously, and have adjusted your question to Ethereum is a layer two sequencer. And I am here to tell you that we have made the necessary research breakthroughs and the social coordination breakthroughs to make it so that I can practically answer that question, yes. Ethereum is sequencing a layer two as we speak.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  So we decided to call this Ethereum sequencing. No, we didn't. That would have been a great name. We decided to call it resequencing, which would still be a great name, but no, we did not. We had to name sequencing rollups and Ethereum. And so this guy up here decided on the name based sequencing. Don't ask me why, but the meme has stuck. And the rest of this presentation is going to be specifically about based sequencing. Why it is valuable and in turn, why it is extremely valuable and important for ETH holders. To understand why Ethereum sequencing is valuable, we have to understand how Ethereum sequences. This is obviously important. I'll make the case that it's not that important. Today, we use an off-chain auction called MEV Boost that allows proposers that are granted sequencing rights by the Ethereum protocol

• 9:33Speaker 01

  to auction these off to specialized builders that are the ones actually extracting MEV and doing the sequencing, right? In the future, it's very likely that we'll change that because MEV Boost has a big problem, which is that it pretty directly incentivizes builder centralization. That's why you have two builders. There's things like FOSSIL, which is fork choice enforced inclusion lists, and Braid, which is Max Resnick's proposal to do multiple concurrent proposers. There's also a whole bunch of other designs floating around out there that do something along these lines. These are all kind of ways to change how Ethereum sequences, but I'm going to make the case that it's not actually that important how Ethereum sequences. Ethereum has a few good properties.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  One of those is liveness and reliability. This is a graph of Ethereum's liveness over the past eight years. You'll notice there is no point where Ethereum had an outage. I tried to find a graph online for this, but I decided to make my own because I couldn't. Yeah, another thing Ethereum has 12-second block times. That's an important part of its sequencing. It also has other properties that I'm happy to talk about, like an efficient builder market. But... By far the best property is what Ethereum sequences, not how Ethereum sequences. The answer to that question, of course, is Ethereum Layer 1 and then plus little text is base rollups. The reason Ethereum Layer 1 is such a big font is because Ethereum Layer 1 is massive and has a lot of network effects.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  Network effects are really important to sequencing, and I'll explain that in a second. But first, just kind of loosely define network effects. Network effects are anything that make one network more valuable than another than another network and scale with kind of the growth and usage of that network. They are good things, always good things. So, network effects are something that are really difficult to fake. We can go to another alt Layer 1 ecosystem, and they might sell us on the idea of network effects, but they would be unfortunately lying. Ethereum, over the past eight years, and as the first Turing-complete blockchain, has offered us the ability to amass a gigantic network effect. Solana has 15% of the TVL.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Monet has like 0% of the users. Solana has Mert and Kyle. I don't think that's viable, it's up to you. And these people change the perception of Ethereum's network effect on crypto Twitter to something very different than it actually is. So I'm going to show you some numbers on the next few slides and prove a few things to you. This is stablecoins. Stablecoins are a part of network effect because they enable decentralized finance and open finance if you're using centralized stablecoins. Ethereum has more than half of all issued stablecoins. Solana has only 2.15%. Massive win for Ethereum.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  But don't clap yet, because we have TVL. 55% Ethereum, with that big, big blue one is Ethereum. Solana's over here at 7.34%, 15% of the TVL of Ethereum. There are some other smaller chains. Let me just like kind of reiterate this. 55% of all value locked across every blockchain is on Ethereum Layer 1. That's not Ethereum Layer 1 and Layer 2s, Ethereum Layer 1. Now, TVL, metrics, activity metrics, volume metrics, can all kind of be faked, right? It's possible to game these metrics. Something that is much harder to fake is the kind of thing that the Electric Capital Developer Report will tell you about, which is developers. 16,700 newcomers wrote code in Ethereum.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  2.7 times more than the next largest ecosystem. These are 2023 numbers. I'm eagerly waiting for 2024 numbers. You'll see over here, we have Polygon is the second largest ecosystem. Solana is the third largest independent ecosystem. There are more developers that work on chains that are not on this list than developers that started writing code in Solana in 2023. There's also quite a bit of contract innovation in Ethereum. This is one of my favorite charts for just EVM code, but 71% of contract logic originates on Ethereum. Now, this doesn't apply to like SVM code, so it's not a fair comparison at all, but it's an interesting number. Ethereum Layer 1 is still the home for a lot of contract innovation, and that has remained true for quite a while. There's also quite a bit of app dispersion.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Contract logic originates on Layer 1 and then moves to Layer 2. This is kind of the vibrating from this. Obviously, BNB or Polygon are two of the biggest receivers of contract logic after it originates on Ethereum. One interesting thing is that Arbitrum is like the largest, one of our rollups that actually creates apps. It's not base, which surprised me, at least in 2023. The other thing about Ethereum is a massive researcher and developer community. I chose these researchers because I really like them. We also have the entire ETH research community of which I've contributed to, many people in this room have contributed to. It's amazing. We have these institutions, these organizations that work hard to make Ethereum better and easier to develop on.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  This QR code will take you to the Protocol Guild website where you can see a list of more than 150 contributors to Ethereum. Now, this is from Stark's DevCon keynote, and the amazing thing about Ethereum is not only this research sauce, but also like practical developer things. People who have tried to build an SVM will tell you that it actually sucks. Being on EVM is way, way nicer, and it's because of these tools that are primarily open source, except ETH can, of course, and are really, really useful for developers. That is network effect for the EVM ecosystem, but applies to Ethereum Layer 1 as well. Now, Ethereum is also home to the second largest cryptocurrency. It's natively issued on Ethereum. It is the ledger of last resort.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  As you heard today, ETH is permissionless money. Ethereum has no VC unlocks, unlike other cryptos, has a reasonable issuance policy, as we just heard, and that issuance policy might be getting even better in the future, and of course, has a top-tier ticker. Ethereum is also global. So there are researchers and core developers distributed around the world. This is not true for other Layer Ones who are building products, not protocols. It is translated into tens of world languages, which doesn't sound that important for us English speakers, but it really is for bringing on new developers and new researchers. There's also global community events, as evidenced by this. I live in the United States and I'm in Asia, which is amazing.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And you know, one other kind of anecdote here is I was at an event, a DevCon side event called EIP Fund, where I met Chinese native speaking researchers who translate Ethereum research into Chinese for the Chinese native speaking research and developer community. One interesting thing that they told me that shocked me was that these Chinese speaker, speaking researchers and developers are about six months behind the chain tip, like their research chain tip. So you know, they're still learning about things that we published research for six months ago. The reason for that is because translation is slow and information dispersion is slow and there's a massive communication overhead. I think that's a problem, something we can improve in Ethereum.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  But I can imagine that for a Layer One like Solana, they're not only six months behind, they're like forever behind because there is no communication there. Let's continue. So this is all about network effects. How does this play into value accrual? So value accrual is great. I love value accrual, but I really like sustainable value accrual because sustainable value accrual is even better for my bags. The frame shift that I want you guys to take here is think not what you should do for your Layer One, but what your Layer One can do for you. Stop saying Layer Twos should accrue value to ETH. Layer Twos shouldn't do anything. This is a permissionless network. What we can do is provide a valuable service. ETH can generate value for Layer Twos and exchange receive fees. So why sequencing?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Why do I think sequencing is that valuable service? There's a few numbers that are publicly available. More than $1 billion of Layer One M V V has been extracted since the merge. This is a conservative estimate. I believe that the number is probably much closer to $2 billion. Centralized sequencers, who do a lot of sequencing in Ethereum today, more than Layer One, are absolutely rolling in cash. Coinbase makes more money than Ethereum. Quant funds. Pay millions of dollars for lower latency in TradFi. If you believe that finance and price discovery will start taking place on Ethereum in its layer twos, then you have to at least expect that such things will begin to happen on Ethereum as well. Sequencing value itself also scales with scale.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  So as Ethereum layer one scales up and it gets better and is able to facilitate more financial activity and just more activity in general, then the sequencing value will also scale. There's a network effect there as well. So this is where base rollups kind of enter the equation. I just have a few images to provide a definition, if you want a real definition. I give a DevCon talk on this. Base rollups do execution externally to Ethereum and use Ethereum for security and sequencing. This is opposed to a centralized sequential rollup that does execution externally, just like a base rollup, but also does sequencing externally, but then uses Ethereum for security and of course other things.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  So here's what I think these properties end up looking like. Here's how we like kind of fit these DigStall puzzle pieces together. We have based app chains, or at least base rollups, maybe a special purpose, all using products, services on the layer one. Sequencing, obviously, oracles like Chainlink, and asset issuance like USDC and native ETH and LSDs. This is opposed to what we have today and probably will have for the next year or so, which is a bunch of layer twos that have their own sequencing, have their own oracles, and have their own asset issuance, which is like pretty much the very definition of fragmentation, because they all have their own liquidity too. Well, we can change that. So I wanted to call this slide Endgame, but someone told me that's probably not a good idea.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  I don't really think there are endgames in crypto, only very long midgames. So I'm going to talk about today how we do this. So just want to reiterate this. Exporting Ethereum sequencing, the product that we just talked about, that is incredibly valuable, is called base sequencing. Base rollups are rollups that use base sequencing, as opposed to centralized sequencing or another form of decentralized sequencing.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  So there are a few teams working on base rollups. Tyco wrote some code that was forked by Nethermind to make Surge, and forked by Puffer Finance to make Unify. There's a team, Gwyneth, who's kind of a part of Tyco as well, under that umbrella, but they have their own code. Rise is also building a base rollup, high-performance base rollup. Spire is building base app chains, and Rogue is building a base rollup in kind of the purest form. These three on the right are Rise, Spire, and Gwyneth. And the three that I believe are building next-generation base rollups that have the potential to actually solve problems. So what do we get after all of this? What I like to call Harmony, which has this important, excuse me, this important, important property,

• 20:45Speaker 01

  which is composability, seamless user experience, and developer experience. You cannot get a seamless developer experience with asynchronous composability, only synchronous composability. Once we have this, we have a seamless user experience, seamless developer experience, yet we still have sovereignty. Applications still have the ability to choose things about their chain, right? They could choose to launch using a different DA provider. They could choose to change all of the service providers. They have the ability to do that. They also have the ability to customize, right? And specialize. Throughout all of human history, we have learned that specialization leads to efficiency. So David Hoffman said fragmentation is sovereignty. He would be correct if he just changed fragmentation to composability, which is what we're all trying to do

• 21:29Speaker 01

  with base rollups. Now, let's get a little bit more specific, perhaps. App chains are dead, long-lived app chains. I believe that app chains are the only way to replicate a monolithic user and developer experience while establishing infinite expressivity. App chains are the only way to get infinite expressivity because they give application, the developers, to customize everything, right? This means things like your execution environment, your virtual machine, how you do gas fees, et cetera, et cetera. So what happens to monolithic chains? What happens to Solana? What happens to Monad? They die. And there's a simple reason for that. Monolithic chains can no longer be competitive on user experience, which will be better on Layer 2s.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Developer experience, which will be better in the Ethereum-based rollup ecosystem, or on scale, will be a lot better on the Layer 2 ecosystem. Layer 2s have the superpower of parallel innovation, where they can make progress using the unifying network effect of Ethereum while doing independent tracks of research. So we could go down 10 different research paths on the tech tree at one time, which is something a monolithic chain cannot do. I am M-Team. I make the best base rollups at Spire Labs. You can message me on Twitter. It's my Twitter handle. You can email me. Stay base.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Questions? Questions? Who's got a question? Anyone got a question about a base rollup? All the way down there.

• 23:05Speaker 02

  Oh, when mainnet?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  When mainnet?

• 23:09Speaker 02

  When would it be in product?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  We have... So at Spire, well, there's already base rollups live on mainnet. Tyco is live on mainnet. It has been for the past few months. There is a whole bunch of base rollup projects working towards mainnet. I don't know about the status of many of them, and if I did, then I couldn't tell you. Spire is the one I know a lot about. We are live on testnet with really excellent composability that is one-way, so not full synchronous composability, but still very helpful, very valuable. And we are looking to get that in mainnets next year.

• 23:39David Hoffman?

  What does a mainnet look like if you are also not a single chain? You're many, many app chains, right? So how does that change the idea of a mainnet?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Right. So for Spire, that means producing mainnet-ready code that is used by applications to build app chains that are on Ethereum mainnet.

• 23:55David Hoffman?

  And then our team's just gonna be able to like... How will... Can they just freely use that code? Is the code open source?

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Not yet, but it will be when it's on mainnet.

• 24:03David Hoffman?

  Okay. Okay. Cool. So they don't have to come talk to you? They can just use your code?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Well, I hope they do, because we'll help them, but they don't have to.

• 24:10David Hoffman?

  Cool. Questions?

• 24:12Speaker 03

  How will convince Base to become Base Sequel?

• 24:17David Hoffman?

  The Base Network.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  How do you convince apps?

• 24:20David Hoffman?

  Base.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Base.

• 24:22David Hoffman?

  Oh, they do.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  We don't need to. So Base is a platform, a developer platform, that offers its application developers services, right? Like low block times, low gas fees, etc. What Base does not offer, and I do not believe will offer in the near future, is MEV that they give back to builders. They also don't give back congestion fees to builders. So if you build an app on Base, you are sacrificing some important things to Coinbase, right? Quite a bit of revenue, in fact. And application developers really care about revenue. So our strategy is not, let's go talk to Jesse and convince him to make Base a Base rollup. Let's go talk to Aerodrome, right? And convince Aerodrome to be a Base rollup. And then Coinbase will realize we've lost all of our we've lost all of our users, we've lost all of our apps.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And then I believe that they will eventually run the risk reward analysis and become a Base rollup. That's a few years down the line.

• 25:16David Hoffman?

  Question? That's one more, one more.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  Earlier today, we heard Eric kind of asked the audience a question about fragmentation in Layer 2s. Do you believe that Base rollups will solve the fragmentation? And if so, how?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so using some technology that is called coordinated proving or aggregated proving, we can get synchronous composability between Ethereum Layer 1 and Base rollups, which is like the perfect solution to fragmentation. There is no more fragmentation anymore. To get there, we need coordinated sequencing, which is base sequencing. That's one of the requirements. And then we also need some cryptography. So either fast T validity proofs that can be verified on chain, or fast, we call real time sometimes, ZK proofs that can be verified on Layer 1. We use all of these to do what we call shared deposits, kind of like Polygon Ag Layer, but not necessarily without branding. And then use those to essentially allow all rollups

• 26:15Speaker 01

  to compose with each other without ever touching Ethereum, or compose with Ethereum as well, or and, I guess. And enjoy like composability perfectly synchronously across all Base rollups and Ethereum.

• 26:28David Hoffman?

  No more question and one more question, one last question and we're moving on to Matt.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, just question, how do you do the MEV back the applications?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Great question. So the, there's a few ways that we know of as researchers to understand how much MEV is being captured, because it's like not obvious from just looking at the EVM. One of these is an auction and the other of these is like using like obligation specific sequencing and like just kind of patching over that fact that we don't know. The, the way that Spire specifically does it, not all base rollups do this, is we run a auction to distribute what we call tickets, which are similar to execution tickets on Layer 1, but apply to the proposal of a Layer 2 block instead of a Layer 1 block. You must burn a ticket to propose a Layer 2 block unless some, you know, some, uh, some circumstances where no ticket holders are available in the look ahead.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  It's technical stuff, but basically something similar to execution tickets. We distribute tickets using an auction and then you need to burn one of those tickets to propose a block. So if you end up doing sequencing, you're giving us money.

• 27:31David Hoffman?

  I lied, one more question, one more question.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Thanks for a great presentation. Just to extend on that question from Ken, how would you advise developers to pick a chain to build on today?

• 27:43Speaker 01

  How to who?

• 27:44Speaker 03

  On the fragmentation question, how would you advise a developer or a team to pick a chain to build on? So they don't get paralyzed by trying to choose one?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, great question. So today developers are forced to choose between building on a Layer 1 and building on Layer 2s. In the future, that line will be blurred with base rollups, I believe. We're deploying on a based app chain, give you your own sovereign environment while still being like on Ethereum by, for all intents and purposes. Today, I would recommend that you build on base or some other high-performance Layer 2 and be very ready for a migration to a base rollup once Spire goes to mainnet.

• 28:23David Hoffman?

  Even more questions. I thought, I saw one more hand, one more hand.

• 28:27Speaker 03

  What kind of future will make it difficult for base rollup?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I firmly believe that there's a few, so I made a tweet like base rollup FUD or criticism tier list. The number one was kind of aligning some of the different base rollup teams. If I had to be totally honest, I think the greatest risk to the success of base rollups is not the success of anything to do with base rollups, but rather to the success of Ethereum. Like if you believe in Ethereum, you probably by extension believe in base rollups to some degree.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  I believe that if base rollups on Ethereum fail, it's almost, you know, 90% chance that it's because Ethereum layer one has failed. If you believe that all that network effect stuff that I showed will leave and go to other ecosystem, Monad, Swana,

• 29:13Speaker 01

  then that is, I think, the reason that base rollups could fail.

• 29:15David Hoffman?

  New projects are coming online to the Mantle Layer 2 every single week. Why is this happening? Maybe it's because Mantle has been on the frontier of Layer 2 design architecture since it first started building Mantle DA powered by technology from EigenDA. Maybe it's because users are coming onto the Mantle Layer 2 to capture some of the highest yields available in DeFi and to automatically receive the points and tokens being accrued by the $3 billion Mantle Treasury in the Mantle Rewards Station. Maybe it's because the Mantle team is one of the most helpful teams to build with, giving you grants, liquidity support, and venture partners to help bootstrap your Mantle application. Maybe it's all of these reasons all put together. So if you're a dev and you want to build on one of the best foundations in crypto, or you're a user looking to claim some ownership on Mantle's DeFi apps, click the link in the show notes to getting started with Mantle.

• 30:00David Hoffman?

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• 30:37David Hoffman?

  Launching a token? Worried about the IRS? Talk to Toku for five minutes to learn how to save hundreds of thousands of dollars for you, your team, and your investors. Now, if you do an initial consultation, Toku will cover the cost of your token valuation, which is what you need for your launch. So, don't wait. Reach out to the team right now at [email protected]. That's team@T-O-K-U dot com.