Pod Insights Bankless Bull or Bear? Crypto Market Analysis with Ledger from UpOnly! About this episode Ledger from UpOnly joins Ryan and David without Cobie or an appendix. However, Ledger brings the heat. He gives his takes, predictions, and everything in between on all things ETH, BTC, Shitcoins, Gensler's grilling, and macro.
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Transcript 14,193 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:27 Ryan Sean Adams? Bankless Nation, where is the crypto market going? Are we going up? We going down? I don't know, maybe a bit of both. David, today is an episode where we look at prices. We look at the charts. Bankless is a thesis-driven media company, but not today. We're just looking at price today. Who do we have on? What are we discussing?
0:45 Speaker 01 We're bringing on Ledger from Up Only fame to help us guide, walk us through the charts. So we're going to look at the big boys, the Bitcoin, the Ether, the BTC Ether Ratio over the long timeframe and also the near timeframe. Because Ryan, two weekly rollups ago, you were talking about how you were feeling ready to capitulate on the possibility of triple-digit Ether ever coming back. And then we had a moment where I was like, wait a second.
1:12 Ryan Sean Adams? Me too.
1:14 Speaker 01 We could, we could just go right back down, down to a thousand-dollar Ether. TBD on three-digit Ether. But I think the big question that is going around in the crypto Twitter space is, is this the biggest bull trap of the bear market? And I think we remember back in 2019, the run from Bitcoin from 3,000 to 14,000, back down to 4,500. So I remember, I remember that bull trap. And I want to make sure that we, to the best of our ability, we are able to at least ask the question. Are we seeing something similar here today in 2023?
1:55 Speaker 01 Because if you remember, that was May of 2019 is when that happened, right in the middle of the year.
2:02 Ryan Sean Adams? I know.
2:02 Speaker 01 And here we are, April 26.
2:04 Ryan Sean Adams? Interesting point in the market, that's for sure. And I'm going to make, give you some more commentary on that. But before we do, got to let our Bankless Nation know a message from our friends and sponsors over at Gnosis Safe. It's now it's called Just Safe. This is the multi-sig that everyone in Ethereum uses. It secures billions of dollars. Bankless uses it. You go to bankless.eth, it's Gnosis Safe. That's where we store the goods here. And you've also heard us talking about account abstraction as well. This is the next generation of Ethereum wallets that give these wallets like a fintech type of experience. Well, Safe is launching something called Safe Core, which is an account abstraction tech stack. David, you want to tell them about this?
2:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's really an SDK for all of you account abstraction builders out there. Right now, we are in the paradigm of what we call externally owned accounts. Boo, we want to be with smart contract wallets. Yay. What do we need to get there? We need an account abstraction SDK, which is exactly what Safe has built with their Safe Core, Safe Core Account Abstraction SDK. You can go access that if you're a builder. There's a link in the show notes to go click that. There is also an account abstraction, Anything Goes Hackathon, starting May 1st. This is in addition to being a hackathon, a non-technical hackathon. So if you have memes, products, ideas, MVPs, that everything is fair game.
3:33 Speaker 01 That's why they're calling it, and Anything Goes Hackathon. If you want to participate in your first hackathon, but you are not technical, this is a great place to get started. So help inspire the smart contract revolution so we can leave the stone age of wallet UX behind us. And you can do that with Safe at safe.global/corps or click the link in the show notes.
3:52 Ryan Sean Adams? David, I can't believe you're so mean to EOA wallets just then. I mean, they've served us well up to this point, okay? Have some respect.
3:59 Speaker 01 They are literally the stone age of wallets.
4:03 Ryan Sean Adams? Well, okay, so getting back to price, though, in kind of the comments. Yeah, we are in a very interesting place in the market. I feel like something about this under 2,000 mark for ETH, right? That's just a number that sticks in my head. And conveniently, going into this episode, we're also just under 30K on the price of Bitcoin. And I know that because I just checked. Otherwise, I haven't been paying a lot of attention to price. But today is our opportunity to pay much more attention to it with Ledger. Guys, we'll be right back with Ledger. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible, including our number one recommended exchange. That's Kraken. Go check them out.
4:40 David Hoffman? Kraken Pro has easily become the best crypto trading platform in the industry. The place I use to check the charts and the crypto prices, even when I'm not looking to place a trade. On Kraken Pro, you'll have access to advanced charting tools, real-time market data, and lightning-fast trade execution, all inside their spiffy new modular interface. Kraken's new customizable modular layout lets you tailor your trading experience to suit your needs. Pick and choose your favorite modules and place them anywhere you want on your screen. With Kraken Pro, you have that power. Whether you are a seasoned pro or just starting out, join thousands of traders who trust Kraken Pro for their crypto trading needs. Visit pro.kraken.com to get started today. Bankless is launching the Bankless Token Hub. At Bankless, we've been studying the crypto markets ever since 2017, and all of our
5:23 David Hoffman? research has led us to this: the Token Hub. Your one-stop shop for alpha to help you navigate through the crypto markets. Have you ever wished for a trusted resource that would share their thoughts, ratings, and their opinions about tokens? Boy, do we have the product for you. The Bankless Token Hub is where we provide Bankless citizens with the alpha on the hottest tokens in crypto. We do the research, so you don't have to. The Bankless Token Hub includes the Token Ratings, where our team shares their research and outlook on the hottest tokens in crypto. Also, the Token Hub includes Bankless Bags, our own internal investment club. Bankless Bags is where we put our money where our mouth is. And for the Bankless power user out there, you can access the analyst team 24/7 inside the Bankless Nation Discord. You can ask them questions and learn from a group of people deep in the weeds of crypto
6:08 David Hoffman? investing. The last feature of the Token Hub is the ability to upvote or downvote. Token ratings. The bankless token hub lets you learn from your fellow citizens to rate these tokens yourselves. The bankless token hub is launching right now and it's already been beta tested by your fellow bankless citizens. So stay tuned in the bankless discord for updates. And if you're not a bankless citizen, well, you better sign up if you want access, because this corner of bankless is available for citizens only. I'll see you in the discord. If you haven't yet experienced the superpowers that a smart contract wallet gives you, check out Ambire. Ambire works with all the EVM chains. The layer two is like Arbitrum, Optimism and Polygon, but also the non-ethereum ecosystems like Avalanche and Phantom. Ambire lets you pay for gas and stable coins, meaning you'll never have to spend your precious ETH again. And if you like self custody, but you still want
6:53 David Hoffman? training wheels, you can recover a lost Ambire wallet with an email and password, but without giving the Ambire team control over your funds. The Ambire wallet is coming soon for both iOS and Android. And if you want to be a beta tester, Ambire is airdropping their wallet token for simply just using the wallet. You can sign up at ambire.com. And while you're there, sign up for the web app wallet experience as well. So thank you, Ambire, for pushing the frontier of smart contract wallets on Ethereum.
7:18 David Hoffman? Bankless Nation, you already know him, but here we've got Ledger, AKA Brian, AKA Ledger, co-host of the Up Only Podcast. Don't know if that's a thing anymore. We'll ask that later on in the show. Well, also the co-host of Ledgercast, a trading podcast that he runs with Josh Ulswitz, also the co-host of the Daily Open Podcast. Weekly Open. Weekly Open, excuse me, Weekly Open. Thank you. And overall, another content producer in the space of crypto. Ledger, welcome back to the show.
7:46 Speaker 03 Hey, thanks for having me. My screen got smaller, so I don't know what happened there, but here we are. It's bear market shrinkage. That's what's happening.
7:56 David Hoffman? Ledger, I think we, I think we want to just hop right into this because there's two forces in the conversation warfare games of crypto Twitter, which is, this is the biggest bull trap of all time versus this is just the bounce back out of the FTX liquidations and the Thuro's capital liquidations. And this is, this is about what's fair value. And so I'm hoping you can help us navigate that question. Of course, I don't expect anyone to be able to read the future and answer that question. But when you hear the question at the very least, are we in the biggest bull trap of all time? What, what, what comes to mind?
8:36 Speaker 03 This is the early innings, if it's even a bull trap. This is unimpressive yet as a bull trap. I am not even remotely interested in selling anything at this moment, and bears will feel much more pain, even if there's a longer sideways market ahead. We are at the equivalent, in my mind, if you look at Ethereum at 2000, of Bitcoin breaching back above 4K.
9:12 Speaker 01 Back compared to the last bear.
9:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, and I can share a screen whenever you want me to, but.
9:17 Speaker 01 You can go for it. Yeah, we're ready.
9:19 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, we gotta chart this whole episode. So this is just a bull trap for ants. You're just not even impressed by this.
9:24 Speaker 03 I'm not impressed.
9:25 Speaker 01 So you're saying that like, bull traps are a thing, and the bull traps are totally possible, and we're not there yet.
9:31 Ryan Sean Adams? Can we?
9:32 Speaker 03 Talk to me.
9:33 Ryan Sean Adams? Define what a bull trap is. What is a bull trap, anyway, guys, for the non-traders?
9:37 Speaker 03 A bull trap is where bulls think all the pain is over and gone and done, and the real pain has not even started. Like, we're gonna go to $500 ETH, or $400 ETH, and everyone that thinks we were done at, you know, sub 1,800, 900, whatever, is wrong, and they're all gonna feel pain, and we're gonna go much deeper. Instead, I would say bears will continue to feel punishment as they try to fade the market recovery. And I mean this across ETH
10:15 Speaker 03 and BTC. This is not an ETH/BTC conversation. If I look at Bitcoin itself, I see a really excellent structure and recovery. This is not to say it can't go down 20%, 30%. I don't care about that. I care if it's gonna go down another like 60%, 70% from current prices, or make new lows to a significant degree, or something like that. Or massively underperform the S&P 500, or broader markets.
10:49 Speaker 03 In my mind, crypto is way ahead of the rest of the market in terms of feeling pain and recovering to where you may not have had max pain in some markets, but I believe that we've had max pain and then some in major crypto markets. There are bear markets going on in crypto right now, without a doubt. On a relative basis, you cannot objectively look at Bitcoin or Ethereum and say that it's true about those two assets. Now, there, this is what I said I was gonna spoil you with. DeFi, and I'm using Ave, I love Ave, great product, great team, great people, great principles. Ave relative to Ethereum
11:33 Speaker 03 is in a massive bear market and making new lows. DeFi, if you own the coins, or even if you own like NFTs, those bear markets may have years ahead.
11:44 Speaker 01 Oh.
11:45 Speaker 03 On a relative basis to some of the strongest assets on planet Earth, right? Like Ave relative to the dollar is just sideways. No problem, not new lows, but when you're comparing it to, somebody calls it ultrasound money in Ethereum.
12:03 Speaker 01 I don't know who calls that.
12:05 Speaker 03 Or the linear distribution schedule of Bitcoin, where you know exactly what's gonna happen with monetary policy. Ethereum, we don't know, we just know people love burning it. But either way, either way, you have this like disinflationary, like minimum inflation, lowering inflation over time, where the world is inflating more and more. And with Ethereum, you have disinflationary and sometimes highly deflationary assets that people are using block space, and there is demand to put hash rate out there and to spend energy
12:44 Speaker 03 for Bitcoin and to spend development cycles and compute power on Ethereum. And those are unbelievably fundamentally strong assets with like really powerful economic principles that no other asset in the world can compare to. None.
13:04 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm listening to a bankless podcast.
13:06 Speaker 03 I'm, you're, you're just listening to me. It's just me, Brian Krogsgard, representing himself and no one else.
13:13 Speaker 01 No financial advice.
13:14 Speaker 03 No co-host, financial advice, or anything else. I love holding Ethereum. I love holding Bitcoin. I love holding hard assets right now. I love when I can actually attach yield to those assets if possible and safe and secure and not over leveraged. If you're over leveraged, if you're in derivative assets, if you're deep down into the weeds of like, in a coin sense, the 1,000th coin, not interested, not even remotely. They're not strong assets. If you are interested in the core framework of what makes up decentralized applications and finance and money and stuff,
13:57 Speaker 03 and ultra durable, that when the United States is going after it, it doesn't care, because there's hundreds of other countries that'll pick up that baton. There are hundreds of thousands and tens of thousands of other developers and other software creators and other principled believers that see the value of this as money and see the value of this as an application platform and see the value of this as durable goods relative to their piece of crap inflation, their piece of crap politicians, their piece of crap policies that you don't understand, you don't know what's going on, you don't know what's going to happen, other than that you're going to lose your value over time. These two assets are some of the best in the
14:40 Speaker 03 world. Full stop. So you said, we're just going to look at price, but I'm screening fundamentally based on that. And then we can talk about whether, you know, some trader looking at the weekly chart, or the daily chart, or the hourly chart is going to lose or make money.
14:57 Ryan Sean Adams? David, I like this ledger guy.
14:59 Speaker 01 This is great. This is great. So you're bifurcating this conversation into two, and I think we'll approach each one. The DeFi, and I'm actually really interested in talking about the DeFi tokens, but I know that that comes second, just because.
15:14 Speaker 03 And it's not just DeFi. It's like I just look, I'm just clicking random ETH pairs, like AVAX ETH looks like.
15:20 Speaker 01 Right. Well, okay. So the pattern I'm going to point out here, and so like AVAX, if you do ENS versus ETH, it's down. I bet you if you do any DeFi token and any alt layer one that went through its first bear market, it's the common, the common denominator are first cycle tokens are just down bad versus Bitcoin and Ether.
15:40 Speaker 03 That's right. But even like second cycle tokens, like SNX looks like it could break down relative to ETH, and Synthetix is doing some pretty amazing stuff right now. You know, I don't know the economic principle. I don't, I don't, I'm not paying attention. And that's the problem. It's an attention, Kobe talks about this a lot, and it's an attention economy.
16:00 Speaker 01 Right.
16:01 Speaker 03 Right? And why bother down the deep line if you are not the front page of attention?
16:07 Ryan Sean Adams? Can we just take a peek at like a layer two token, though?
16:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, which one you want?
16:11 Ryan Sean Adams? A Matic or like a.
16:12 Speaker 03 How about Arbitrum?
16:14 Ryan Sean Adams? Okay, it's just so new, though.
16:16 Speaker 03 Okay.
16:17 Speaker 01 Right. So like, there's like, that was another like category of conversation that I had is like there's the ETH and Bitcoin are the blue chips. There's the DeFi tokens. There's also the second, there's also the layer two tokens. Matic is interesting because it's a first cycle token at its first big bull market this last cycle. But then also, it's a layer two token to be price referenced with optimism and Arbitrum as well. So that's like a third topic of conversation. I do kind of want to.
16:44 Speaker 03 This is optimism. I don't want to own this.
16:47 Speaker 01 You don't want to own that.
16:48 Ryan Sean Adams? Not relative to ETH, you're saying?
16:50 Speaker 03 Not real, this is relative to ETH. I think optimism is great. This is, and this is the dichotomy of a deflationary world, right? When you live in a deflationary world.
17:03 Speaker 03 When the underlying asset is the strongest asset, it disincentivizes creative production and upside. There's a ton of like optimism investors, early investors are so happy. Right? Optimism retail buyers are not, and they probably won't be for a year or two. You know what I mean? Like this could all change. This is a, this is a daily chart. This isn't that big of a deal. This could change in, in a week. Right now, right this moment, not interested. I want to see much lower prices.
17:35 Ryan Sean Adams? Are you making a case for Ledger like, you know, do you remember that slogan, the, the dollar wrecking ball? Where like the dollar just sucked up all liquidity.
17:42 Speaker 03 Yeah, it's the ETH wrecking ball.
17:43 Ryan Sean Adams? Is this the ETH wrecking ball? Is that what you're saying?
17:46 Speaker 03 It's ETH and BTC wrecking ball where you see essentially the equivalent of BTC dominance or ETH dominance or majors dominance. Now that's a chart I like. That's a daily chart of Bitcoin dominance relative to everything else. But in the scheme of things, on a weekly basis, like, you know, it's still down here. There is nothing preventing this from moving another 50%.
18:14 Ryan Sean Adams? You think Bitcoin dominance could get to 70% even in an ETH wrecking ball world?
18:19 Speaker 03 Well, ETH, ETH and BTC are gonna, imagine the double, the double wrecking ball component there. Like I don't, we'll look at ETH BTC, we'll battle about ETH and BTC because that's actually an amazing battle. It's like, where do you overweight ETH BTC? Like that chart, I think Bitcoin has a chance to take like, drop a 25% bomb on ETH. That's the worst case scenario in my mind. I also, yeah, for ETH, I also think ETH could like double if it just like says, all right, little Bitcoin boy, here, sit aside and I'm going to take over because people use me. Like that's, that's a really interesting debate. That's the only debate that I actually find interesting.
19:02 Speaker 03 Because when I look at, this is just because it's the chart I have available. If I had a BTC and ETH versus everything chart.
19:11 Speaker 03 I'm in.
19:12 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah.
19:13 Speaker 03 So why would I own everything if I'm really interested in BTC and ETH? And to me, the high beta, so like 5%, 10% of your portfolio is go make bets on things you believe in. Y'all were talking about account abstraction, like ideas that people are building protocols on, things where you invest at 10 million or 50 million that might be worth 500 million. A 10x is amazing on like an early-stage thing if your tech is right. Something that is not, the tech is not right, or the product market fit is not right, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in something that is, if I'm, if I'm the one that got in for a 25 or 50 million dollar valuation,
19:58 Speaker 03 and now it's a 2 or 3 or 4 billion, that's great. I'm perfectly happy to hold it and like move that to BTC and ETH over time. If I'm looking to get in a 2 or 3 or 4 billion dollar valuation, I need a bull market to take that to a 40 billion dollar valuation. So when I look at the big layer twos, I look at, you know, some of that kind of stuff, I still think they're awesome. I just don't think they're awesome for the next like 6 months, like when BTC and ETH might stomp on absolutely everything.
20:31 Ryan Sean Adams? 6 months, that's an interesting time horizon here. So your basic, I want to connect this to kind of the, you know.
20:39 Speaker 03 I don't have the privilege of, yeah, I don't have the privilege of people's comments. So I'm just, I'm talking to my 2 friends, I'm not talking to the YouTube commenters.
20:47 Ryan Sean Adams? That's a better way to do it, honestly. Okay, so ETH and Bitcoin, like they are Mario and Luigi, you know, and they just picked up the star. I just watched the Super Mario Brothers movie, it's awesome by the way.
20:59 Speaker 03 Was it good?
20:59 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, and they just, they're just smashing through everything. They're like.
21:02 Speaker 03 This is a, this is a, this is a 2-year sideways battle. 2 years. Now ETH won the previous, like whatever this is, climb out of the 2019 bear market. ETH climbed, climbed, climbed, and broke up. And it became a big kid, right?
21:21 Ryan Sean Adams? Right.
21:22 Speaker 03 ETH, ETH went from, I don't know, XRP or ETH. And now it's like, that's hilarious. You know, like, there is only ETH. There is, there is Bitcoin and there is Ethereum. And Ethereum leveled up.
21:37 Speaker 03 And now it's gone sideways for two years. Now, is Bitcoin gonna pillage and be the bigger wrecking ball? ETH will still do well, even if it's at .05, even if I believe it has a destiny for .14. But if it goes to .05 and it has a destiny for .14, I have a 3X on a relative basis to win. If I buy more ETH when that happens. So your bet, your gamble that you should be making in my mind, what I'm gonna make is, do I want to own Ethereum? Or do I want to own Bitcoin? I want to own Ethereum without a doubt for the trip to .14.
22:22 Speaker 03 Ethereum will hit .14 in my mind. I also-
22:29 Speaker 01 That's real close to the flipping, by the way.
22:30 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, I was gonna say, what is the flipping? Is it-
22:32 Speaker 03 But that's what's so- This is, this is, this is where the fun is. Like, this is where, imagine, imagine the Udi versus David, like- Not as, not as good as David versus Goliath, but it's close, you know, like-
22:50 Speaker 01 It's really precious to Udi calling him a Goliath.
22:54 Speaker 03 Yeah. Michael Saylor can be Goliath.
22:57 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah.
22:58 Speaker 03 David, David versus Saylor, right?
23:01 Speaker 01 I like that one better.
23:03 Speaker 03 Yeah, so that's a great battle. I want to see that battle. Now, David, you might get down bad. That's the 200-week moving average of ETH relative to BTC. So the four-year moving average, and it's like, I might as well-
23:19 Speaker 01 That green line that I'm looking at right there at .049?
23:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's the four-year moving average. ETH could go there and Saylor's laughing at you and talking about Bitcoin as energy. And like, he's sitting on top of a volcano and, um, you know, Bitcoin's $100,000 and Bitcoin and ETH is whatever 5% of that is, right?
23:43 Speaker 01 It's $5,000, yeah.
23:44 Speaker 03 $5,000. So it's like, oh, cry me a river, my Ethereum is worth $5,000, but he's like, but Bitcoin is $100,000 and I cannot be stopped.
23:53 Ryan Sean Adams? In that voice. Do you know, uh, by the way, David, would you take that bet with Saylor? Could we like meme a David versus Saylor into existence? Like, bet him on the ratio? That'd be a lot of fun. I think both Sailor nor I care for that bet.
24:10 Speaker 03 But you know what happens? You know, I don't care if it's 105. We're just using these as easy numbers, right? It could be 20,000, 20,000 and 1,000, right? Like it's the same ratio. But let's just say it's 105 in 2025. Okay, this is a long, that's not a short bet. That's a two-year process to say 100,000 and 5,000 and ETH bleeds out for, this is, here we go, 2025, January 2025. So this chart just like is a, the worst like little racetrack car, like what are those things called that my kids do? The
24:50 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, the little zippy black track race car.
24:53 Speaker 03 Slot cars, slot cars. Yeah, it's like the worst track ever. It's like just this slow drip out where Bitcoin gets stronger and stronger and ETH is doing great and Bitcoiners are laughing at Ethereum people. And then Ethereum is just like, all right, and it goes 15K. And it goes from here to here because, I don't know, the World Bank is now on Ethereum. Who cares? Who cares what the narrative is? You just need a narrative. You need the alt season. You need the ETH leading. You need the DeFi summer. You need that moment that takes three months and it just unwinds all of the Sailor energy. And then you have your alt season
25:34 Speaker 03 and all of those frigging layer twos and DeFi coins and dog tokens and cartoon pictures and maladies, they go to infinity. And then everything explodes again.
25:44 Ryan Sean Adams? Man, you make it sound so simple.
25:45 Speaker 03 But that's a cycle. We just did that. We just did that like a year ago.
25:51 Ryan Sean Adams? It's how it always happens.
25:52 Speaker 03 It's how it always works. We went from 400 to 4,000 and David was like, just imagine if my Ethereum went to $4,000 and I bought it at 90. Brian's like, I will talk to you from my evil lair.
26:09 Speaker 03 That's what we did. So now we're like, oh, when are we gonna make it again? It's like, it's only been a year, man. It's been two years since the market like really topped and a year since it bottomed or something like that.
26:23 Speaker 01 Something has to happen that's unexpected, right, Ledger?
26:26 Speaker 03 I mean, that is unexpected.
26:28 Speaker 01 Why is that unexpected?
26:29 Speaker 03 Because if Bitcoin is, let's just say Bitcoin goes to $100,000 in 2025, but the S and P 500 has not made a new high.
26:39 Speaker 03 Like, we, and it's like illegal in America to run a DeFi company.
26:47 Speaker 03 And you have $5,000 ETH and that $100,000 Bitcoin. It's illegal to operate a DeFi company in America. Like Bitcoin as currency is in two countries or something like El Salvador and whoever they pick next, frigging Cuba or something. And it's like that, that's the scenario we live in in a couple of years. And the halving happened and the hash rate tripled. And like, we're all pumped up and but our maladies are worth 0.1% of what they were in 2022. I don't have a malady.
27:19 Speaker 01 So this last bear market, when, you know, young little David was excited about his $90 Ether. And all I was like fighting with the Bitcoiners and I just felt that they were wrong. And I had people like Ryan agree with me and all that, all that stuff. And then the, then the cycle happened more or less like kind of how we thought that it would play out.
27:41 Speaker 03 Yeah.
27:41 Speaker 01 Fast forward to now, I do not feel that same level of confidence about reading the market. Because like, like you said, like, we got this Gary Gensler guy who's like coming to like jail all of our developers. And we have interest rates now. And like, there's all these new things that make me much less convicted versus a whole entire cycle ago.
28:02 Speaker 03 But it's because you made a lot of money when the asset was really cheap. Relative to a typical person, it doesn't matter how much money you made, right? Like you own one Ethereum, you own one Ethereum from a hundred bucks and it's like 20 cups of coffee. Right? Then you held that until it went to $4,000 and you're like, I bought $4,000 with 20 cups of coffee. Like, I forsook my Starbucks trip every day for, every workday for a month. And now I have a used Toyota Corolla.
28:41 Speaker 03 That's the bet you already won. That's the Bitcoiner bet from $7 to $700 or from, like, this 2012, right? Right. It's the Bitcoiner bet from, the harder one was Bitcoin was breaking 2013, 12 and $1,300 highs and went to $20,000.
29:05 Speaker 03 That's more like where we're talking about now for Ethereum and for Bitcoin. The road to Bitcoin being worth half a million dollars is really hard for me to imagine when it was $7 when I first heard about it in 2012. So $7 to half a million dollars. So that's two cups of coffee to a house.
29:28 Speaker 03 That's the trade that like, you know, Lop made. Right. That's the trade that Kobe made, right? The people that were buying Bitcoin for seven bucks, 12 bucks. What's the frigging difference between 100% move when it goes to half a million dollars? People just hate you. They hate you. They hate you. They hate your industry. There's jealousy and envy and you're just like, I don't know, bro, I huddled.
29:59 Speaker 03 So if you are Mr. Bankless Ethereum, believe in the network, believe in the true value of what this can be, the compute layer of the entire world, public and private infrastructure that runs on public infrastructure.
30:16 Speaker 03 Secured by itself that cannot be disturbed or overtaken, does not have a single point of influence that can stop it. Ethereum has challenges, right? Like who gets governance done, right? Can the CIA like change the direction of Ethereum governance? Those are the types of changes you're talking about. Can one miner take over the Bitcoin network? Can North Korea have an impact? These are big kid conversations. These are state players don't like that debate because it's too close to being real. Like what's more powerful? Bitcoin and Ethereum or a tiny nation state?
30:58 Speaker 03 I will take, I will put my chips on the side of Bitcoin and Ethereum before I would put my chips on like the 50th largest country in the world. Right. But what about when that decentralized financial platform is the fifth largest country in the world? It's like Australia or Canada and they're like, uh, we just keep printing trillions of dollars and we control it because we have gigantic guns. We're going to point our guns at Bitcoin. And the rest of the world is like, no, our guns already lost and we have nothing and we are now part of this empire that's growing. That, this is the
31:42 Speaker 03 like Bitcoinization argument, right? I'm just putting it in different terms.
31:46 Ryan Sean Adams? By the way, guys, if you're curious, the 50th largest country in the world is by economy is New Zealand. So that's Ledger just shitting all over New Zealand.
31:54 Speaker 01 I was about to say, it's like, man, I don't even know, like, I can't name, don't even know how to like map out where the fifth, 50th largest country in the world.
32:03 Speaker 03 But they know who Satoshi is and they know who Vitalik is, but who cares who the prime minister of New Zealand is?
32:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:09 Speaker 03 Now, New Zealand looks beautiful.
32:11 Speaker 01 Prime ministers or presidents or whatever.
32:13 Speaker 03 They probably have both. It's just a couple of guys that need more power with their amazing like oceanfront states and their like doomsday bunkers that honestly, you might want to bet on New Zealand and against like, I don't know, something really close to New Zealand because New Zealand's got the doomsday bunkers.
32:33 Speaker 01 What I so I had a conversation with Ryan on, I think, the weekly roll up this last week and it was more or less like a conversation about the odds of the next cycle playing out just like the previous cycles. And I remember going
32:48 Speaker 03 A double, a double top, basically. It goes to the same exact spot it went and it's kind of like a ho-hum. Is that what you mean?
32:55 Speaker 01 No, I mean, like, in the 2018 to 2020 bear market.
32:59 Speaker 03 No, no, no.
33:00 Speaker 01 It was like, it was a bear market and then it's like, everyone was like, oh, the next cycle that comes, the next cycle that comes. And my like, tried to put on the little contrarian hat and I was like, everyone's talking about this next cycle as if it's this given thing. Doesn't consensus mean that like, and then that's not gonna happen?
33:16 Speaker 03 And then it happened. That happened.
33:18 Speaker 01 Right.
33:19 Speaker 03 And that made every single person, including you.
33:22 Speaker 01 For the podcast listeners, Ledger's pointing at the COVID dump.
33:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, but that's including you, including me. You know where you were. You questioned everything. Bitmex had $18 million from Bitcoin going to zero on a derivatives platform that a bunch of like apes were killing each other on.
33:39 Ryan Sean Adams? That was scary. March, March 2020. I remember.
33:42 Speaker 03 It was super scary and that was
33:44 Speaker 01 Ryan, do you remember where you were on that moment?
33:47 Ryan Sean Adams? My office, as always, David.
33:49 Speaker 01 But yeah, no, we were recording a podcast. We were recording episode number two.
33:53 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah. Was that number two? When like Gatsby spiked and like DAI was destabilizing and ETH was
33:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, we were both getting liquidated in Maker Dow. Yeah.
34:03 Speaker 03 It was a Wednesday or Thursday night. I can't remember which, but I remember exactly. I can't, I remember exactly who I was with.
34:09 Speaker 01 Morning.
34:10 Speaker 03 No, but the like, I was the night before when it was like 5K.
34:13 Speaker 01 It was the night before. It was the night before.
34:15 Ryan Sean Adams? Arthur Hayes was calling for triple digit ETH for so long and he actually got it and I couldn't believe it. Sorry, double digit ETH. What am I talking about?
34:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, double, the double digit shitcoin.
34:27 Speaker 01 Yep.
34:29 Speaker 03 And he also like might have had to turn the exchange off in order to prevent Bitcoin from going to zero.
34:36 Speaker 03 Bitcoin derivatives. I'm just making stuff up, but like that's, that's the fear. Even though it was the start of like the greatest wealth creation cycle in crypto's history. The day after. Now, this is a weekly chart. That next week was so scary. That next week was like,
34:59 Speaker 03 we didn't go to zero. I hope we survive. The next week was like, wag me, baby. Let's go.
35:08 Speaker 01 But the question I was asking is like, throughout that last bear market, I was just saying like, oh, everyone's talking about the next cycle that's inevitably coming. And then it did. And so fast forward to this.
35:17 Speaker 03 But here, up here is where they were really talking about that and they lose face, they lose faith, they lose faith, they gain it. They questioned everything. Half the people literally went bankrupt. I mean, you remember the funds that went bankrupt during that period? They'd never, they couldn't experience any of this. They never made it because they went broke. They never made it because they got.
35:37 Speaker 01 But you're saying like right now in this present bear market, like you're, you're pointing at like either Bitcoin, they're going to do it again.
35:44 Speaker 03 We're somewhere between, no, I'm just trying to point at parallels. I'm not trying to say like, third avenue is going to be the same as second avenue. I'm saying like it's a street with buildings on it. And like typically this street over here is a kind of a growth phase. Once you build the other street. You know what I mean? Like that.
36:09 Speaker 03 Bitcoin city is going to grow or whatever, you know, like I believe in the growth of it, but if people don't come in and inhabit it, then, then no, of course it can change.
36:19 Ryan Sean Adams? One of the ways we were talking about it on the roll up was like, what year is it compared to?
36:24 Speaker 03 Dumping like crazy as I talk, by the way.
36:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, the comment, the comments are saying so as well.
36:28 Ryan Sean Adams? We're not helping the market right now, but okay.
36:31 Speaker 01 Bankless has one trading chart show and we're dumping.
36:34 Ryan Sean Adams? Is this, um, is this most like another analogous year? Is this like 2019?
36:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, we're not.
36:41 Ryan Sean Adams? 2020? What is, what year is it compared to the last cycle?
36:45 Speaker 03 Like I said, I don't.
36:46 Speaker 01 May 2019.
36:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, ish. Like, there's a lot of uncertainty. Will Ethereum be illegal? Will Bitcoin be disavowed? Will somebody, who's gonna ban it? Like, is the US the new China? Like, that's a good question.
37:07 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, that is a good question, actually.
37:09 Speaker 03 That obviously puts pressure on asset prices. But China banned Bitcoin like all through 2017 as well. And the US bought it. And now, what if the US just keeps banning stuff? The CFTC, or the SEC, or the FTC, or the FAA? I don't care. Like, you know, you cannot fly with your keys.
37:34 Ryan Sean Adams? On that for a moment, there's two things that have actually surprised me about like the kind of the year regulatory backlash which you've really had. Like, number one, that we haven't dumped harder with Bitcoin in the price. Like, that's surprising in and of itself.
37:46 Speaker 03 Everything blew up.
37:47 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, but also number two.
37:48 Speaker 03 Up Only was on Last Week Tonight with John Oliver the other day.
37:53 Ryan Sean Adams? I saw that, by the way. I should have reached out and congratulated you guys. It was for the...
37:57 Speaker 03 No, I was like, how bad did he talk about?
38:01 Ryan Sean Adams? Not at all.
38:02 Speaker 03 Did he make fun of Up Only, or just make fun of Do Kwon? I'm not sure which.
38:06 Ryan Sean Adams? It was John Oliver's segment. He had his kind of like 25-minute segment.
38:10 Speaker 03 It was crypto is a failed experiment.
38:12 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, smashing crypto, but with justifiable reason because he brought in, you know, Terra.
38:17 Speaker 03 Centralized crypto was a failed experiment.
38:19 Ryan Sean Adams? Alex Mashinsky with his like, banks are not your friend shirt. It was all of the hits, basically, all the 2023 hits. And they showed a clip from Up Only where Do Kwon came on one of your live streams. In between, and Martin, what's his name?
38:34 Speaker 03 Yeah, right. I mean, Martin Scurelli told him that Joe wasn't so bad.
38:36 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, that made John Oliver... Yeah, it was just...
38:41 Speaker 03 Crazy.
38:42 Ryan Sean Adams? It's hilarious. But, okay, so, but like, okay, back to the regulatory point. Surprised we haven't gone down more. I'm also surprised, like, the reason I don't think the US will go all-out ban... I know we're talking about fundamentals here, and it's, you know, trading price podcast. But the reason I don't think they'll go to all-out ban...
38:59 Speaker 03 This is a trade.
39:01 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah, but like, okay, did you see the sessions with Gensler getting grilled in front of Congress? Actually, like, you could go...
39:07 Speaker 03 No, but I saw his talk where he said two-thirds of the market are not securities.
39:11 Ryan Sean Adams? Crypto has more friends, I think, in Congress than I previously thought.
39:16 Speaker 03 Hundred percent.
39:17 Speaker 01 It was actually pretty astounding. That was actually a bullish take on the events of like-
39:23 Speaker 03 I'm gonna call out a couple of them. I hate how friggin', what do you call it? Polarized or like partisan it's getting.
39:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:33 Speaker 03 Because I don't think crypto is a partisan thing, but there were like Tom Emmer and Cynthia Loomis and but there were a bunch of people that we didn't know as well then either that I'm looking for their names right now.
39:46 Speaker 01 Patrick, was it Patrick McHenry?
39:49 Speaker 03 Warren Davidson and Patrick McHenry. Tom Emmer, Warren Davidson, Patrick McHenry. And I say they stood up for American companies trying to operate within the crypto ecosystem in good faith, but lack good faith guidance from our own regulators. And then you look at Gary Gensler's comments as an instructor versus as the chair of the SEC, and he contradicts his own self badly.
40:13 Speaker 03 When he was an instructor, this was Brian Armstrong tweeted this yesterday. It's a video of him saying two thirds of the market are not securities or something like that. And then now his comments are nothing but Bitcoin is a commodity. And which-
40:28 Speaker 01 My explanation for that was that his pivot is just clear because he started being paid by the banking sector with some backhanded deal.
40:37 Speaker 03 I have no idea. I'm not gonna take the worst-
40:40 Speaker 01 Obviously, that's a complete conspiracy, but like something about Gary Gensler just did a complete pivot. And, you know, show me the, show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. I don't know where the incentive came from, but I know where, what the outcome is, which the outcome is like Gary Gensler is here to kill crypto to the best of his ability. So there's an incentive there somewhere.
41:00 Ryan Sean Adams? I think it's, it could just be part of Operation Choke Point, like the, you know, members of government, executive branch, Elizabeth Warren, whoever just said, hey-
41:10 Speaker 03 I'd just like to say whichever whale, whichever whale is watching this show and counter trading me right now by selling everything they own when I talk about it being the best asset in the world, if you could please frickin' stop. People are upset at me. And I'm blaming this market dump on Bankless Podcast and my own positive sentiment.
41:29 Speaker 01 Okay, so we started the podcast Bitcoin was $29,700 and now we are down to $28,000.
41:35 Speaker 03 I started talking at 1940 and we're at 1830.
41:39 Speaker 01 Wow, wow. It's burned down, okay, okay.
41:42 Speaker 03 This is Kobe dumping everything he owns right now. That's my conspiracy theory of the day.
41:48 Speaker 01 Just cuz?
41:49 Speaker 03 No, just because he's gonna counter trade me as much as possible.
41:53 Speaker 01 Can you, can you open up that tweet that I just sent into Zoom chat here? This is a, I don't know how legitimate this is, but I want to get your take on this as a trader. This is Andrew Kang tweeting out what could just be a great viral tweet. But he tweets out, "When the market sells off for what seems like no particular reason," and this is after the move from Ether at $2,100, $2,100 down to like 1,800 where we basically are right now. Andrew Kang tweets out, "When a market sells off for what seems like no particular reason, one can either assume that one, the trend has been exhausted and a larger, longer correction is on the horizon, which is like the call for like a mid-year bull trap. Or two, someone knows something," and then he follows that tweet up with a hash,
42:38 Speaker 01 which is basically him timestamping a secret. So Brian, I just want to get your take on this tweet. There's like this weird shift in price action ever since Ether broke 2,000 and Bitcoin broke 30,000, then all of a sudden things just dump now. So I wanted to get your perspective here.
42:56 Speaker 03 I don't really care. It's too short term. Like Andrew is trading, you know, millions of dollars on GMX and sometimes he's up millions and sometimes he's down millions and he's trading this crap. And this is absolute, in my mind, the noise and not the signal. The signal is what's happening on weekly timeframes and monthly timeframes. Like charts are very valuable. I'm not, I'm on here to talk about charts. This is the chart I care about.
43:30 Speaker 01 When you trade, what timeframes are your candles?
43:32 Speaker 03 This one.
43:34 Speaker 01 The weekly timeframe?
43:35 Speaker 03 Daily.
43:36 Ryan Sean Adams? ETH to dollars, is this weekly?
43:39 Speaker 03 Yeah, when the market, when the market is going like parabolic, yeah, put me on an hourly chart and I'm gonna like rotate a 2X and a shitcoin to another shitcoin and try to 2X that, like, but when I'm talking about where do I want my work, my value, my worth and my like allocation, I only care about this. Do I need dollars? Do I need crypto? Do I need hard assets or oil or gold? Or somebody's dollar milkshake? Like, what's the important stuff? And in my mind, right now, inflation's not under control. Like, we may have a deflationary shock, but we're still printing money.
44:23 Speaker 03 We unwound half of the tightening that we did in like two days of crappy bank failures and Federal Reserve failures to control the situation.
44:37 Speaker 03 And they tried to blame crypto because they know that they are totally screwed unless they find a scapegoat.
44:42 Speaker 01 Right.
44:43 Speaker 03 That's my, that's my personal opinion. I don't want First Republic bank shares. They just went down like 50% yesterday because they're like, oh yeah, we still suck.
44:55 Speaker 03 Silver, like Silvergate and Stargate.
44:58 Ryan Sean Adams? That was their press release.
44:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, like whatever, whatever all those banks are, like Signature and all them, Stargate.
45:04 Ryan Sean Adams? I want to put my money in a bank.
45:06 Speaker 03 Big fan of Stargate. Well, there's a Stargate. I'm an investor. Sorry, I'm Freudian slip.
45:13 Speaker 03 That's the layer zero. I know you don't like the naming conflict there, but layer zero and Stargate are a thing. That's a messaging protocol between things. So sorry, I didn't mean to say that.
45:21 Ryan Sean Adams? Oh, that's great.
45:22 Speaker 03 Silvergate and Signature and Silicon Valley and First Republic. They have all these unsecured deposits over 250K and they're losing their deposits because people do not trust their money in those institutions.
45:39 Speaker 01 Right.
45:40 Speaker 03 I do trust that my Ethereum is my Ethereum. I trust that my Bitcoin is my Bitcoin.
45:48 Speaker 03 They are worried about that stuff because if people lose trust in that, they lose trust in dollar hegemony and all that kind of crap that Bitcoin maxis talk about for years and years.
46:00 Speaker 01 Right.
46:01 Speaker 03 And I think those are real arguments. And when you have periods of fear and concern and you start questioning, is a bank run possible? No, as long as it's JP Morgan and the US just says, we'll keep printing to make it work. That's what they're doing. We will backstop the biggest banks and, you know, to the rest, you know, it's like the rest can just like, just go suck it up, right? Like, sorry if you're a bondholder of a mid-sized bank in South Dakota.
46:36 Speaker 01 Right.
46:37 Speaker 03 Tough luck. Get your money out. Like, why would you want money in anything but JP Morgan Chase?
46:45 Speaker 01 Damn, let's just come in to like slay some people today, man. You're
46:49 Speaker 03 But this is the truth is we have fragility in our banking system and they're all complaining about the fragility of scammers in crypto. They cannot, they cannot make that argument about decentralized protocols and products that are built on sound principles.
47:08 Speaker 01 And that's Bitcoin. We're 100% aligned on that.
47:10 Speaker 03 I know, but that's what the prices are reflecting it.
47:14 Speaker 01 Right, okay. That's what I want to make that connection is like how that relates to this chart here.
47:21 Speaker 01 But there's a ton more that
47:24 Speaker 03 Yeah, sorry. I'm just, I'm just
47:26 Speaker 01 No, this is great.
47:27 Speaker 03 This is my fundamental
47:28 Speaker 01 There's some other assets I want to talk to you, but we have to immediately cut to sponsors to talk about all these ways that immediately cut to the sponsors that make this show possible.
47:37 Speaker 03 You got me fired up, man. You got, I haven't talked
47:39 Speaker 01 You are fired up, but I want some more of that. And we'll get, we'll get right back to some shitcoins right after this.
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50:30 Speaker 01 Bank Station, we are back with Ledger, who has just spent some, spent some hot fire lately. And it's been a while since you've been doing some podcasts, Ledger, because you had an emergency removal of an appendix. Congratulations on that, I guess.
50:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, thank you.
50:45 Speaker 01 Is that what you say for an appendix?
50:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, I found out yesterday it actually had ruptured and I didn't know that. So like, not all, I had to, I had to get it all removed and then my, my gut was rotten. So I had a couple of weeks in the hospital.
50:58 Speaker 03 Or a couple of weeks with multiple trips to the hospital and.
51:01 Speaker 01 That's painful. You still have your.
51:03 Speaker 03 David, you still have your.
51:04 Ryan Sean Adams? Come out of later.
51:05 Speaker 03 I do still have my appendix.
51:06 Ryan Sean Adams? Yeah.
51:06 Speaker 03 Congratulations.
51:08 Speaker 01 I'm gone. No appendix, man. I got rid of it.
51:10 David Hoffman? Oh, wow. I'm the only one.
51:10 Speaker 01 You don't need one.
51:11 David Hoffman? On this show right now?
51:12 Speaker 01 You don't need it. Yes.
51:13 Speaker 03 I'm not going to gross you all out with some of the stuff I learned.
51:18 Speaker 03 Not having your appendix is kind of bullish, like.
51:25 David Hoffman? I'm kind of scared to ask.
51:27 Speaker 03 You don't want to ask any more follow-ups. Like, we're going to lose all your listeners.
51:30 Ryan Sean Adams? It's an optional organ, David. You don't need it.
51:32 David Hoffman? I know that.
51:33 Speaker 03 I'll explain it. I'll explain what I learned later.
51:36 Speaker 01 Okay.
51:37 Speaker 03 Google told me, ChatGPT told me the answer to what an appendix is used for. So we'll talk about it.
51:43 David Hoffman? Oh, I know what an appendix is used for.
51:44 Speaker 03 What?
51:46 David Hoffman? It is a store of bacteria in case your colons just get absolutely wrecked from infection. It is a nice little warehouse of bacteria to restore your gut microbiome.
51:58 Speaker 03 Yeah. Have you ever played Oregon Trail? When they die dysentery, it's because they can't coat themselves in good bacteria, and then they start consuming bad bacteria again. And so then they're in trouble if they don't have their appendix to serve that function.
52:15 Ryan Sean Adams? Wait, so your appendix is just a sidechain for your colon? Is that what you're telling me?
52:21 Speaker 03 We're going down this rabbit hole. It means if you lose your appendix, it's because you weren't using it very often, which means your bowels do not drain themselves out because you died in Oregon Trail.
52:34 Speaker 03 So you live in a modern society, and in a modern society where you're not completely emptied out, then you don't use your appendix and it gets a little rusty and it can't handle it. And it just overflows with death because it's not being utilized well enough.
52:48 Speaker 01 This is quite possibly the most bearish content.
52:53 Speaker 03 Going there and then y'all went there.
52:56 Ryan Sean Adams? I was interested in that.
52:58 Speaker 03 I told you I wasn't gonna do it. This is what you do at a bankless meetup with like three beers in you, not when you're sober on two o'clock in the afternoon.
53:07 Speaker 01 We're gonna get the clip team to make a clip out of this and share this on Twitter with any context about why we're doing this.
53:14 Speaker 03 Somebody said it's in a pen decks. This is just decentralized trading content.
53:19 Ryan Sean Adams? Nice, nice.
53:20 Speaker 01 God, I don't know if I want to continue this. Let's get back to the charts.
53:25 Speaker 03 Sure, let's do that.
53:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, can I get you to pull up some alt layer ones? Can we look at Solana?
53:30 Speaker 03 Oh, I love Solana. So we're relative to what?
53:33 Speaker 01 Solana chart. I just want you to pull up, like, I want you to treat this like a war job test, where like you look at the chart, you look at the shape of the line and you tell me how you feel about it.
53:43 Speaker 03 I'm gonna take you to, so I don't have Sol ETH, but I have Sol USD and Sol BTC. So Sol USD, it's like, this is what I would call, um, let me see if I have them. Yep, there we go, a bunch of lines. This is the SBF three dollar kind of range bounce, like that's the
54:06 Speaker 03 That's like the destiny chart in the worst possible case scenario. They actually have done some really cool stuff. So what they haven't been able to get into is this kind of bear market range that Solana, like Solana Maxies would have loved to be the bottom. But then SBF happened and FTX failure happened and it was like, yeah, lol. Like, no, these coins are gone because our cost basis is like 11 or 50 cents or, you know, something like that. So we're still totally fine dumping on your face at $10 so that we don't go bankrupt as a firm or as a hedge fund or as a whatever. So it went to 10 bucks.
54:48 Speaker 03 And now it's like at 20, okay, 2X that, blah, whatever. Can it get back into the previous range, the 25 to 50, the one where Solana people don't feel like they're dying? This is Ethereum $40 or not 40. This is Ethereum like 100 plus. And Solana $10 is Ethereum $100. And $8 Solana was Ethereum $80. Ethereum's going back to 15 bucks where it was when it went on Coinbase. I don't think that's gonna happen. But this isn't a good chart. It's not a chart where I'm just like, you know what? That's what I want to own. Unless I think it can go from 25 to 50 bucks. And I'll disclose, I do have a little like long, long, long, long, long term Solana.
55:31 Speaker 03 Not a meaningful amount, but Solana owned for a long time and didn't sell that portion.
55:38 Speaker 01 If I asked you to look at like other alt layer ones, would you more or less give me like a similar story?
55:43 Speaker 03 Maybe worse. I think Solana actually has a chance to Ethereum itself. I think the monetary principles of Solana are just as bad as Ethereum's were in 2018. Like there's still a lot of inflation. There's still a lot of centralization, but like only on Solana is a great narrative.
56:03 Speaker 03 Only possible on Solana, the Solana phone. I'll disclose too, like totally, he told me he was gonna send me a phone. I hadn't gotten that yet. But his challenge was use it for a week and see what happens. And like, I was like, yeah, man, that's awesome. Like if I can do crypto on my phone and get out of the Apple ecosystem of absolute anti crypto trash, other than maybe Steve Jobs with Satoshi.
56:29 Speaker 03 Did y'all see that? The white paper on Mac OS? Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. Um, but anyway, I think that's amazing. I think like Solana, if Solana could be like the, the third avenue, right? Like the Bitcoin, the Ethereum, the Solana achieve network effects that have power. And then they can like fix the things that are wrong. Ethereum sucked in 2017. Yeah. It was an ICO hosting platform. Yeah. And now you have Ave and you have Uniswap. What did it hit? 1.5 trillion dollars of transaction volume? Yeah. That stuff is amazing. Like Ethereum is, is money. Ethereum is principally sound, even if chaotic.
57:13 Ryan Sean Adams? So you think it has a chance to be that third?
57:16 Speaker 03 Yeah.
57:16 Ryan Sean Adams? Thing, but, but
57:18 Speaker 03 Without a doubt.
57:18 Ryan Sean Adams? And you wouldn't, would you put any other alternative layer one in the running for that?
57:23 Speaker 03 No. Yeah, I agree. Which ones would I?
57:27 Ryan Sean Adams? Cosmos, maybe.
57:28 Speaker 03 Ah, tech, tech is good.
57:30 Ryan Sean Adams? A basket of it.
57:32 Speaker 03 Adam is Tech is good, money is bad. Yeah. And it's also a cathedral. Solana is kind of a bizarre, like the same way that Ethereum was, you know? It was a little bit cathedrally, like the only, who were, who was building on it? But now they got thousands of people building on it in a absolutely chaotic way, the way that Ethereum was in 2018.
57:52 Ryan Sean Adams? But what does something like even Solana do against Bitcoin and ETH? Cause to the point, in the first part of this episode, you're saying the only two assets, it's a two horse race is ETH and Bitcoin. I don't care about anything else at this phase of the market.
58:04 Speaker 03 I don't. Look where it is. Look at what I'm looking at. Sol BTC is not something I want to own. Not, I'm talking about the fundamental case. This is where I talk about that fundamental and then the trade. The trade is not there for Solana.
58:19 Speaker 03 The fundamental case I think might be building, but I don't know, like, maybe it's not until it goes down to here. Right? It could go to, if you said.
58:29 Speaker 01 Ledger is pointing to something that's like down 60%.
58:33 Speaker 03 Down a lot.
58:34 Ryan Sean Adams? I am not familiar with these numbers here, the ratio of sold to Bitcoin here.
58:38 Speaker 03 That's a 50% dump relative to Bitcoin. So if Bitcoin goes to 40 or 50K and Solana stays at 20 bucks.
58:51 Speaker 01 We got some comments in the chat saying, you guys are completely discounting Cardano and Ripple. Yes, yes, we are doing that.
58:58 Speaker 03 I mean, I'll take that one to the grave. I don't have to own it. You don't have to own everything.
59:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:04 Speaker 03 Why would you want to own everything? Take concentrated bets and believe in them. And I, I see a world, this is like a banana parabolic down move relative to Bitcoin. Like that, that's not, that's not.
59:20 Speaker 01 But as in it accelerates.
59:22 Speaker 03 It's like, yeah, it's like it's sloping more down the longer you go and it's not great.
59:29 Ryan Sean Adams? Do you think that, do you think that this changes at any point, right? Like, or when does this, when does this change? Like, do we have to have the phase? Do we, will we feel the phase shift of the market? Okay, so.
59:41 Speaker 03 You won't be first, but you don't have to be last.
59:45 Ryan Sean Adams? Okay, so like, this is an era, you're saying, where we've just got ETH and Bitcoin, they're going to outperform everything. So you don't think it's worth owning anything relative to them, but that will change at some point.
59:56 Speaker 03 100%. And you need to, that's when you're ready to take your incredible buying power of Ethereum and Bitcoin.
1:00:03 Ryan Sean Adams? And deploy.
1:00:04 Speaker 03 And deploy it.
1:00:06 Speaker 01 Go down the stack.
1:00:07 Ryan Sean Adams? How will you know? How will you know when it's time?
1:00:10 Speaker 03 This is a, this is, let's go back to principles, right, of trading. This is a 20-week moving average. It's getting pounded by the top side. The 20-week moving average, which is five months.
1:00:23 Speaker 03 Is an absolute ceiling. It cannot get above of a four to five month, a quarterly price, right?
1:00:32 Speaker 01 Just to depict this for the podcast listeners, the Solana chart, the all the candles, the green channel candles, the red channels are going down to the right. There's a white line above all the candles. And anytime the candle touches and pounds into the ceiling, anytime it touches the white line, it plummets.
1:00:48 Speaker 03 And so that's the same thing Bitcoin, that's the same thing Bitcoin did from 20K to 3K.
1:00:55 Speaker 03 If, let's go, I'm gonna go look at it real quick. This is, this is why, this is what I use charts for. And it's taken me some time.
1:01:05 Speaker 03 So like, just know, you don't have to be there. Okay. This is Bitcoin after it went to $20,000 in 2017. This is that same moving average. It doesn't really matter what you're using. But this just a, a court, imagine it isn't like a quarterly price almost, or a one third of the year. It couldn't get above that, got slammed by it. 6K, it was sitting at it, and it got decimated to a four-year average price when it finally broke down. Solana's not even four years old. It doesn't even have the green line. But can, when does it, when am I interested? Turn it. Tell me that the price can get above the average price of the last one third or one quarter of a year.
1:01:48 Speaker 03 And show some support. But that takes the way you guys were in Ethereum land in 2017 and 2018 and 2019 believers. It's believers in Solana. And Solana has thousands of believers that need to absorb those coins and show that it can bottom.
1:02:07 Speaker 03 Relative to Bitcoin. That's not even relative to dollar, right? Like, that's relative to Bitcoin. And then I'll say, okay, I will take some precious Bitcoin or some precious Ethereum. And I'm gonna put some of it into Solana. I don't care if the price of Solana is $20 or $100.
1:02:25 Speaker 03 I don't care. I care what it is relative to my current established buying power of the two most powerful assets in the world. That's what I care about. Can I buy 20 Solana or 100 Solana or whatever it is for every Ethereum that I deploy into it? What I don't know what the ratio is, but like, if I can, as long as the trend has flipped, then I will earn more relative Ethereum because the price of Solana went up. And then someday, maybe I'm actually gonna want to hold Solana even through a bear market. Not all of it. If I have a, I don't know, 100 Solana, I might hold 10 through whatever price it goes to next. And I sold 90%
1:03:10 Speaker 03 of it with relative buying power and put it away for the home team because I want to like, retire someday. You know what I mean? That's the trading component of this broader fundamental narrative.
1:03:23 Ryan Sean Adams? And you think that what's really important here is this moving average here? This is this a
1:03:28 Speaker 03 It's just trend trading. It's just saying
1:03:30 Ryan Sean Adams? Trend trading.
1:03:30 Speaker 03 Trend trading based on a quarterly chart, a quarterly price average or something ish, you know, 20 weeks versus 200. One tenth of the timeframe is faster than the four-year timeframe. That's all that means. 20 and 200.
1:03:45 Ryan Sean Adams? When do you think that happens? Are you just looking at charts and watching for kind of the, you know, the trend to switch? Or you have like a day? You have no idea whether that
1:03:53 Speaker 03 The dollar, the dollar version of it says it's okay to hold right now. David, you're muted, maybe on purpose.
1:04:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're probably good. This is why we bring Ledger on every six months because I feel like within six months, you know, we'll be able to, he'll be, at some point, I'm just waiting for him to tell me like, oh, yeah.
1:04:09 Ryan Sean Adams? Buy, buy, buy, buy.
1:04:10 Speaker 01 It happened three months ago.
1:04:12 Speaker 03 Well, it had, it had a chance, literally, on relative to the dollar, right in October, in 2022, and then FTX failed and it went to zero.
1:04:19 Speaker 01 Right. By the way, guys, you guys want to know why we're dumping right now?
1:04:23 Ryan Sean Adams? Why?
1:04:24 Speaker 01 Uh, here, I'll just send you a tweet, Ledger. Mt. Gox and government wallets have started making transactions. So Mt. Gox Bitcoins are on the
1:04:33 Speaker 03 Okay, so it's not my fault.
1:04:35 Speaker 01 It's not your fault.
1:04:36 Speaker 03 I'm blaming Carpele's.
1:04:42 Speaker 01 So I don't know if that's actually meaning we're actually being, things are actually being sold into the market or traders are just selling because of fear of others.
1:04:50 Speaker 03 It's got, I'm sure it's both, but this is where other people can shine. Like they can sit there on the hourly chart. Mt. Gox coins will be absorbed. Those are massive W's by people that were into crypto way before us.
1:05:02 Speaker 01 Right.
1:05:02 Speaker 03 And even though they lost 80% of their coins, they still like 100x like.
1:05:06 Speaker 01 Right.
1:05:07 Speaker 03 That's the best force hold ever unless you sold your claims and like never got them. And by the way, that's where Solana people are now.
1:05:15 Speaker 01 Right.
1:05:15 Speaker 03 Like Solana people have their coins locked in FTX and they're selling their claims for 20 cents on the dollar. What if Solana goes to 200 bucks again and at 10x's and they're crying and they're gone and they're like running a food truck now because they don't believe in crypto and instead they could have 10x, they could have 10xed from here.
1:05:33 Speaker 01 Trading on Kyle Davies, S2S exchange.
1:05:36 Ryan Sean Adams? I'm sure that that's going to hit someone. That's probably someone's specific story of, you know.
1:05:41 Speaker 03 I don't, I feel bad saying that, but.
1:05:44 Ryan Sean Adams? There's one guy who heard that and felt personally attacked. Can I, can I ask you?
1:05:49 Speaker 03 I've been there, man. Not at the food trucks, but you know, down bad is, it's how it goes.
1:05:54 Ryan Sean Adams? A rite of passage. This entire episode on trading and prices, we haven't yet once mentioned macro and like the R word of recession or anything else. Does that factor into your analysis at all? Or are you just like, I, it's too much. I can't even.
1:06:10 Speaker 03 It's a lot.
1:06:11 Ryan Sean Adams? Factor that into the model. So I just ignore it. Cause I know some kind of crypto traders who are just like, I don't pay attention to macro because no one actually knows what's going to happen. What's your take on this?
1:06:22 Speaker 03 I think we're kind of at an inflection point. If you just look at the dollar, the Dixie relative to other stuff, but all these currencies suck. Like the dollar could bounce heavily. This actually, if you're just looking at a chart, a chart is a chart is a chart. Joshua Switch 2017. And I don't, put me on a deserted island. I'll look at the chart and I'll tell you what I'll do. Sometimes I'll be right. Sometimes I'll be wrong, but hopefully 60% of the time I'm right and therefore I win.
1:06:52 Speaker 03 I'm allowed to be wrong. I'm allowed to get it wrong. I'm allowed to not understand, but I'll look at the chart in isolation and make the call lacking fundamentals. My value add is can I look at the fundamentals and then take the same exact strategy? And that way I'm not trading like Doge, Pepe, Taco Coin, and instead I'm trading Ethereum. Right? Like the easiest win of all time. Pepe Coin, zero. Ethereum, not zero in the future, in the long run. I once traded Bed Bath & Beyond and 10x'd my money on Bed Bath & Beyond stock.
1:07:33 Ryan Sean Adams? Were you bullish on fundamentals, sir?
1:07:35 Speaker 03 They had a billion dollars in the bank at the time. Since then, that was more than the valuation of the stock. They owned their own real estate and I was like, this store sucks. People go here in August when they're about to go to college and then they go there.
1:07:51 Ryan Sean Adams? That's the last time I've been to Bed Bath & Beyond.
1:07:52 Speaker 03 I know. You'll go again when you have a baby, but it won't be owned by them because it'll be owned by someone that bought the bankruptcy assets for pennies on the dollar. But the chart is the chart is the chart and I 10x'd my money on Bed Bath & Beyond, a small amount of money that turned into a reasonable amount of money. And I like did nothing but trade that for 2019 because guess what? Crypto wasn't worth trading and that chart was like
1:08:22 Speaker 03 and I was, everybody was like, this company's going bankrupt. And I was like, yes, they are, but not yet. And now they're bankrupt. I haven't traded it since it was, became a meme stock. Once it became a meme stock, I was definitely no longer interested. But I turned a few thousand dollars into a few tens of thousands of dollars doing it. And then I turned a few tens of thousands of dollars into ETH and GBTC when the market was doing well. And now my IRA is worth a little bit of money and that's pretty fricking awesome. And it started at like, nothing.
1:08:56 Ryan Sean Adams? And that's all charts.
1:08:58 Speaker 01 I have no further questions.
1:09:00 Speaker 03 Yeah, this is an honesty episode, right? Where I'm coming out, I'm coming out firing. It's tax protected.
1:09:06 Speaker 01 A new man.
1:09:08 Speaker 03 I won't touch it until I'm 65 years old. And it's not like the majority, like I own a home and you know, I have some, a couple of other available assets. Like it's not going to change my life in the near term. But the fact that you turn something from your first job into, you know, six figures or something like that, because you traded Bed Bath & Beyond stock in a tax protected account is pretty funny.
1:09:32 Ryan Sean Adams? Great story. All right. Well, David, do you have any other questions about charts prices? Cause I want to ask.
1:09:41 Speaker 01 Not about charts, no.
1:09:43 Ryan Sean Adams? What are you doing these days, Ledger? So is it like, is it like 2019 where crypto is super boring and you got Bitcoin in it, but you're waiting for things to happen? So why trade? So what are you spending your time doing?
1:09:53 Speaker 01 Building.
1:09:54 Speaker 03 Never been building. I'm biddling.
1:09:57 Speaker 01 You want to pull up Flip?
1:09:58 Ryan Sean Adams? What is this?
1:09:59 Speaker 03 Flip.
1:10:00 Speaker 01 Flip.xyz. So this isn't just, Brian, I want to actually give this take, give this take out there. When sometimes when the charts are not conducive to trades, sometimes when the markets aren't ready, the option to build a company and invest in private markets by building stuff is actually the best ROI on your time. And so Brian, what are you building these days?
1:10:29 Speaker 03 Uh, I'm trying to not dox everything, but also show you Flip. We're releasing, um, we're releasing this coming week, the best in class OTC trading platform for NFTs.
1:10:48 Speaker 01 First, what is Flip?
1:10:50 Speaker 03 Flip.xyz. If you go to flip.xyz, let me.
1:10:53 Ryan Sean Adams? Show it. Yeah.
1:10:55 Speaker 03 I was trying to pull up what we're doing next.
1:10:58 Ryan Sean Adams? You got the screen.
1:10:59 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah. I was trying to show you what we're doing next.
1:11:01 Ryan Sean Adams? You got a next thing after flip.xyz?
1:11:04 Speaker 03 No, no, no. This is what people see on Flip today.
1:11:07 Ryan Sean Adams? Okay.
1:11:08 Speaker 03 So this is just, you know, JPGs, love JPGs, but this is.
1:11:14 Speaker 01 Shitcore with charts with images.
1:11:15 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, not all of them. I am my pudgy and my pudgy is me. Um, but most of these are going to zero, right? Like.
1:11:26 Speaker 03 But there's like incredible utility in some stuff as well. Like I'm a huge believer in ENS. I absolutely love ENS, own tons of them, own stuff that I think is worth millions of dollars, but nobody else believes it yet. But I'll just sit there and hold it until somebody else decides they want to name their, you know, child after their ENS or like a sports team or whatever is gonna, needs to own that ENS. And there's incredible like profile utility in that. But today, at this moment, you say, you just sold me and I'm gonna, you know, go buy these ENS. So we enable trading and sweeping and all the same
1:12:08 Speaker 03 things that you see on Jim and Genie and Blur or wherever else. And it's, it's pretty darn cool. We also, I can't show you because it'll dox me real bad. But
1:12:20 Ryan Sean Adams? It'll dox your wallet. I see.
1:12:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I have, I have six wallets. I have six wallets connected to my Flip account. Because we have multi-wallet, multi-device, hardware wallet, hot wallet, mobile wallet, rainbow wallet, Coinbase wallet, MetaMask, all connected to your Flip account and you can view an aggregated view of your portfolio. You can sweep and shop and transfer between all of those. It's a incredible all-in-one solution for NFTs that also has this like really impressive market data for any collection that you're interested in. Who's involved? Who are the top holders? What are they doing? What's the trait of these collections?
1:13:01 Ryan Sean Adams? Let's do, this is awesome, man. What's the team size behind, like, what do you guys, who's building this?
1:13:07 Speaker 03 We're very small. There's
1:13:10 Ryan Sean Adams? Impressive.
1:13:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, we're a sub 10 person team. And
1:13:15 Ryan Sean Adams? Pretty good.
1:13:16 Speaker 03 Yeah, and it's, it's, it's really cool. Like you can go search for, you know, dictionary words. And I want to buy a top 5,000 word. And you can go find out what those E N R, E N S words are, or like, here you go.
1:13:31 Speaker 01 Can we, can we determine what the top 1,000 words are as valued by E N S names? Humans now finally can figure out what the E N S 100 words are.
1:13:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, half an ETH. You can buy either dot ETH for point 85 ETH and you can buy it on flip. It's a top 1,000 word, 5,000 word. It's a dictionary word. And then when you go to buy it, you can, um, I don't know what this is. Let's go to.
1:13:59 Speaker 01 I love how we're just buying words now and not even thinking about it.
1:14:03 Ryan Sean Adams? It's domains. We've been doing this for a while.
1:14:05 Speaker 03 Yeah, this is, thank, thank you. This is literally domains. So I can buy this or.
1:14:11 Speaker 01 I've never had a phrase like that.
1:14:13 Speaker 03 Uh, david dot ETH. Is that a thing?
1:14:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, Dave. Yeah, he's in, uh, he's in Dave Dow. Shout out to the Dave Dow Telegram. At least I know a few of you guys are in here.
1:14:23 Speaker 03 Okay.
1:14:23 Speaker 01 By the way, if you are listening to this and your name is Dave.
1:14:26 Speaker 03 No.
1:14:27 Speaker 01 Here's the show. Here's the show. Then you need to DM me right now.
1:14:33 Speaker 01 So you can get into the Dave Dow Telegram. The owner of Dave Dow, of dave dot ETH is in the Dave Dow Telegram.
1:14:39 Speaker 03 I don't know what that show was about, but what I just did is I followed, I followed david dot ETH on flip. So I can also put it in a, I want to buy folder or I can add new folders. And then I say, if it ever goes for sale, if it ever gets listed, canceled, transferred. And then also for E N S, show me renewal and expiration events. We'll send you a mobile notification that something happened with david dot ETH. So if your name is David and you want to own this, then you are not very smart if you're not subscribed to what's happening here. We, we show a history where somebody paid 32.8 ETH for this and they've held it since. Uh, six ETH back in, in.
1:15:25 Speaker 03 Whenever this was, March 2020, and you can go look at that and say, oh, that was on OpenSea. They have paid their royalties. So like, we're, we're very much in the royalty conversation. We want to be opinionated about that. If I go to latest live sales.
1:15:42 Speaker 01 Can we move on from David. Eath? Because I, I have just PTSD from not purchasing David. Eath.
1:15:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's fine. This is just the NFT market. So in the last minute, people have been trading.
1:15:53 Speaker 01 Wait, can we go to Ryan. Eath? What was the last price for Ryan. Eath? Was it above or below David. Eath?
1:15:58 Ryan Sean Adams? It's gotta be above.
1:15:59 Speaker 01 Let's get the fuck out of here. Let's get the fuck out of here.
1:16:03 Speaker 03 Ryan. Eath. Let's see if we can find it as an asset, not as somebody's domain. He doesn't have Ryan. Eath in this, in this same thing.
1:16:15 Speaker 03 Cause we're trying to search for it by, uh, I need to search for it somewhere else, but I'll, we'll solve that battle later. So I don't think he holds Ryan.
1:16:23 Ryan Sean Adams? This is awesome. So you think JPEGs are coming back then, Ledger?
1:16:26 Speaker 03 No.
1:16:27 Ryan Sean Adams? Not, no, they're not. How about a new round of, why are you building this?
1:16:33 Speaker 03 Because this is not JPEGs. This is NFT infrastructure and NFTs are non-fungible tokens on a blockchain. And we are really good at showing what's happening on an Ethereum NFT and an EVM compatible NFT in the future. Somebody needs to come give us a lot of money and we'll build this and we'll put it on Arbitrum and we'll put it on Optimism and we'll put it on Avalanche. We'll put it on wherever you want to put it. That's very expensive to take a blockchain and then put it in a database. So Ethereum later, layer one, we are presenting the market in a way that we can present, hey, unpaid, paid, partial royalties.
1:17:16 Speaker 03 Who's, what are the average royalties on Blur? What's the market share of Blur and Jim and OpenSea? What's going on with this NFT that I'm following? So the next thing I'm trying to show you without doxing myself badly is, uh, I can't do it.
1:17:35 Speaker 03 This is one of my things.
1:17:35 Ryan Sean Adams? You can dox yourself. It's okay.
1:17:36 Speaker 03 I really can't.
1:17:41 Speaker 03 I want to be able to show you, um, essentially like my feed. So what we're releasing next week is I want to make you an offer. Um, so what we have right now is we have some like onboarding stuff and you can look at your, your points and you can get some of that stuff. What we're about to release is I want to make you, ah, let's see if I can do this without getting in trouble.
1:18:09 Speaker 01 By the way, Ryan, Ryan dot ETH was bought for 10 ETH four years ago and it has not moved since.
1:18:16 Speaker 03 All right. And what was David dot?
1:18:19 Speaker 01 Thirty-two ETH, but it was bought in this last bull market. So.
1:18:22 Speaker 03 What's your?
1:18:23 Speaker 01 Hard to get price discovery on that one.
1:18:25 Speaker 03 What is your, uh, your thing? Trustless?
1:18:29 Speaker 01 My thing?
1:18:30 Speaker 03 Stake?
1:18:30 Speaker 01 Uh, no, David Hoffman dot ETH.
1:18:33 Speaker 03 Okay, who's that?
1:18:36 Speaker 03 You have any? You don't have your primary DNS set?
1:18:42 Speaker 01 Don't I?
1:18:43 Speaker 03 No, you're called Practical B on ours. You must not have.
1:18:46 Ryan Sean Adams? You didn't let it expire, did you, David?
1:18:48 Speaker 01 No, no, no.
1:18:49 Ryan Sean Adams? You could have bankless dot ETH if you want.
1:18:51 Speaker 03 Are these yours?
1:18:53 Speaker 01 Uh, yeah, that's on me. Yeah.
1:18:54 Speaker 03 Okay.
1:18:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's my CryptoPunk.
1:18:56 Speaker 03 So then we're releasing this next week. So this is our OTC interface.
1:19:00 Ryan Sean Adams? Oh, wow, that's awesome.
1:19:02 Speaker 03 I'm going to give you point oh one ETH for this.
1:19:05 Ryan Sean Adams? That's a fair price for your CryptoPunk, David.
1:19:08 Speaker 03 I'm also, I'm also gonna give you, I'm gonna give you a rocker punk. And point oh one ETH.
1:19:15 Speaker 01 Oh, you can give me a bundle. You can bundle up a trade.
1:19:17 Speaker 03 I can bundle up multi-asset ETH with whatever you want. This is not released yet. I'm probably in trouble right now. Um, I'm gonna send this to you. Multi-asset and then I'm going to propose this trade to you. I gotta go, I'm gonna have to, I'd have to go approve a couple of things and all that.
1:19:36 Speaker 01 Sure, sure.
1:19:36 Speaker 03 It will send you a desktop notification that's in kind of a tweet deck type format. It's going to send you a mobile notification. It's going to have a publicly shareable link that you can just view the trade proposal. I'm going to be able to send you a message that says, David, definitely do this.
1:20:00 Speaker 01 Accept this offer.
1:20:02 Speaker 03 And I say, continue, and I'm going to approve my weath, which is going to pay the royalties for my side. So this is positive royalty. It's a trade interface. This is all in our staging development. So I'm going to go away now before I make any like really big mistakes. So I'm going to do all that, send it to you, and then you're going to choose whether you want to accept that deal or not. And what this does, here's what's cool about this. It's really awesome. It really prevents scamming. Like you think, this is an approved wallet with an ENS attached to it. They've authenticated on Flip. They have a multi-wallet
1:20:42 Speaker 03 portfolio on Flip. And they can safely engage in this OTC trade that's built on top of Seaport. It's just not open sea and hideous and whatever else. But we're using open technologies to build better interfaces and better tooling. And we're supporting creators that we partner with, and we're looking for creators that want to work with us, to be their official OTC platform, to enable people following markets to say, I can't follow all this crap, but send me a notification when something cool happens on stuff I own.
1:21:14 Speaker 01 Beautiful.
1:21:15 Speaker 03 That's what Flip is.
1:21:16 Speaker 01 There you go. That was a great, it's testament to what you're building and also the way that you present it, that not a single person dropped off the stream. After going through all of that, going from charts to talk about Flip, we're still at 650 viewers. Thank you so much for coming on and helping us walk through this chart and also showing us your cool spiffy new product.
1:21:36 Speaker 03 I appreciate it. We've been around a while, but honestly, when there's no market, you're building a product for where you think the market's going to go. And I think JPEGs with, altcoins with pictures is really stupid.
1:21:50 Speaker 03 I think your punk or my pudgy penguin is really cool. I also think ENS is really cool. And I think NFTs are going to be used in incredible ways that we don't understand yet for ticketing and access and membership and gateways and things that actually matter, where you need non-fungible tokens, not ERC20s.
1:22:10 Ryan Sean Adams? But do not hold those JPGs.
1:22:13 Speaker 03 Until you buy in power.
1:22:15 Ryan Sean Adams? Right now, you want to hold Bitcoin and ETH is the message from Ledger. Then you can buy the JPGs later.
1:22:21 Speaker 03 See, he gets it.
1:22:22 Ryan Sean Adams? Wow, it's easy. It's so easy.
1:22:24 Speaker 03 Build the JPG platforms. And then buy the JPGs later.
1:22:30 Ryan Sean Adams? Master plan. Guys, I hope you enjoyed that. Looking at prices today. Ledger, thanks for, thanks for coming on, man. It's great. I love the energy.
1:22:37 Speaker 03 Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure to be here.
1:22:39 Ryan Sean Adams? Look, we're excited to weather the rest of this bear market with you for however long it goes or however short it is. We don't know. Of course, none of this, Bankless listeners, has been financial advice. Crypto is risky, so are all the tokens. You could definitely lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. This hasn't been financial advice, but we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.
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