AMA - Liquity & LUSD | Founder Robert Lauko

Liquity is a new governance-minimized stablecoin on Ethereum! Liquidity offers some competitive advantages over other decentralized stablecoins - Low collateral requirements. Only 110% collateral is required vs MakerDAOs 150% - Governance minimization. Liquity is attempting to be a protocol, not a platform. Thus, it is trying to minimize human discretion! ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ 🎖 CLAIM YOUR BADGE: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/-guide-2-using-the-bankless-badge ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 💰 GEMINI | FIAT & CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/go-gemini 🔀 BALANCER | EXCHANGE & POOL ASSETS https://bankless.cc/balancer 👻 AAVE | LEND & BORROW ASSETS https://bankless.cc/aave 🦄 UNISWAP | DECENTRALIZED FUNDING http://bankless.cc/uniswap ----- Resources: Liquity https://www.liquity.org/ Robert Lauko on Twitter https://twitter.com/robert_lauko?s=20 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:14Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hey, Bankless Nation. Welcome to another Ask Me Anything. This is your opportunity to ask questions of our guests. And this guest is, we're pretty excited about. This is a new money experiment built on top of Ethereum. We're talking about Liquidity today. Robert Lauko is the co-founder. He is our guest. Once again, this is your opportunity to ask questions of Robert about the project, where it's going, where it's headed, anything burning in your mind. David and I, of course, will get you started. David, new money experiments on Ethereum. It's one of our favorite things to talk about. What's the TLDR of Liquidity? Why did we decide to bring them on for this Ask Me Anything?

• 0:55David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the TLDR, and I actually use Liquidity as an example in my CoinDesk talk on Monday. The TLDR is that DeFi is in this inevitable, highly competitive environment for capital efficiency. And to me, that's what Liquidity represents. It's one of the newer projects that have come and debuted on Ethereum. And it's seen a ton of success in terms of just TVL, like tons of ETH has been deposited into Liquidity. And the reason why-

• 1:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Billions, right?

• 1:23David Hoffman?

  Billions, yeah. We'll get those numbers up in a sec. And the reason why is because it offers really competitive capital efficiency rates, 110% collateralization ratio and 0% interest rates, right? Like, 0% interest rates on a loan? Like, there is something that you pay, so we'll get into those details. But like, really competitive, 110% collateralization ratio, 0% interest rates. Like, where else in DeFi can you get those loans? And that's kind of the story and the through line of DeFi to me is capital efficiency, capital efficiency, capital efficiency. And so that's my rationale for, you know, why Liquidity has seen such success and why there's been so much demand to get this AMA with Robert.

• 2:07David Hoffman?

  Small disclaimer, I have a small seed investment into Liquidity, and so I have that to disclose, I guess. So perhaps some subconscious bias, but just know that. And I think, without further ado, Ryan, should we just get into it?

• 2:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  We should. I have one quick question for you as well. Not only is this a lending protocol, of course, this is a stablecoin, right?

• 2:29David Hoffman?

  Yes, yes. Oh, very, very important detail. It's a governance-minimized stablecoin. And so, one of the through lines that we will be asking Robert is why governance minimization, always a good question, but also like to what degree governance minimization, right? Like, there's always a spectrum. And so, good to know.

• 2:48Ryan Sean Adams?

  Stablecoin, crypto dollars, new money experiments, all really exciting things. Guys, we will be back with Robert. Bring your questions in just a minute, but before we bring Robert on, we want to thank the sponsors who made this episode possible.

• 3:01David Hoffman?

  Aave is a borrowing and lending protocol on Ethereum, and just recently released Aave version 2, which has a ton of cool new features that makes using Aave even more powerful. With Aave, you can leverage the full power of DeFi money Legos, yield, and composability all in one application. On Aave, there are a ton of assets that you can deposit in order to gain yield, and all of those same assets can also be borrowed from the protocol if you have deposited collateral. Here, you can see me getting a 200 USDC loan against my portfolio of a number of different DeFi tokens and ETH. I'll choose a variable interest rate because it's a lower rate than the stable interest rate option,

• 3:42David Hoffman?

  but I could choose the stable interest rate option if I wanted to lock that interest rate in permanently. One of Aave's V2 features is the ability to swap collateral without having to withdraw your assets, trade them on Uniswap, and then deposit them back into Aave. Aave does all of this for you, all in one seamless transaction, so you don't have to repay loans in order to change the collateral you have backing them. Check out the power of Aave at ave.com. That's A-A-V-E dot com. Balancer is DeFi's most powerful automated market maker. Typical AMMs just have two tokens inside of one liquidity pool, which can lead to fractured liquidity across the many pairs in DeFi. With Balancer, you can access the full power of multiple tokens inside of one single AMM, which unlocks an entirely new playing field of possibility.

• 4:27David Hoffman?

  This makes Balancer an awesome building block for so many different use cases. Balancer pools can make Asset indexes, but instead of paying fees to portfolio managers, Balancer lets you collect fees from traders who use your portfolio for liquidity. Additionally, Balancer smart pools can be programmed to have properties that change according to predetermined rules, such as changing the swap fee based on market conditions, or even liquidity bootstrapping pools, which can help you launch and distribute your token with day one liquidity. At Bankless, we used a liquidity bootstrapping pool to sell our BAP t-shirts to much success. Balancer V2 brings powerful new features that makes your money work even harder for you. In V2, idle tokens are capable of generating yield in DeFi without sacrificing liquidity in the pool. To top things off, Balancer is reimbursing all gas costs with BAV rewards,

• 5:11David Hoffman?

  meaning that all your gas costs are returned to your wallet with the Balancer Governance Token. Balancer's mission is to become the primary source of liquidity in DeFi by providing the most flexible and powerful platform for asset management and decentralized exchange. Dive into the Balancer pools at pools-balancer exchange.

• 5:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  Guys, we are back with this Bankless Ask Me Anything. We are here with Robert Lauko, who is the founder of Liquidity. That is going to be the subject of today, this new monetary experiment on Ethereum called Liquidity. Robert has a PhD in law, interesting background. He's also previously a researcher at Definity, so he's seen other blockchains too. I believe he started this project in 2019 as well. So he's been in the DeFi space for a while too. Robert, it's great to have you on Bankless. How are you doing today?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Hi, yeah, thank you. So I'm really happy to be on the show and yeah, grateful to have this occasion. And yeah, I'm feeling great today.

• 6:09Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's awesome. Okay, so I'm going to be kind of the, almost the dumb cop here, Robert, because I think David knows a lot more about Liquidity than I do. So I'm going to be the guy asking the really kind of dumb novice beginner type questions. And of course, in DeFi, guys, I say dumb questions, there are no dumb questions. We're all on this exploration journey together. So, well, yes, I'll try not to ask the really, really dumb questions, just the novice questions. So, Robert, let's, let's start here. What really is Liquidity? So it sounds like it's a stablecoin or maybe kind of a crypto dollar. But what is it at the 20,000 foot view?

• 6:52Speaker 02

  So what liquidity really is all about is borrowing, and it tries to make borrowing as attractive as possible to the borrower. And it does that by basically improving or by offering two things, one of them being interest-free loans in a stablecoin that it can issue to the borrower itself. And the other advantage is that the loans are only need to be collateralized at 110% collateral ratio. So the loans, they are collateralized with Ether. That's our sole collateral type. And that's how the system basically secures the loans. And then the whole system is completely decentralized, immutable, and it's based on a network of decentralized front-ends,

• 7:36Speaker 02

  which is also kind of unique in the DeFi space.

• 7:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  So, Robert, would you say that borrowing is the main attraction? Because I noticed you started there. It's kind of a borrowing protocol. Or would you say the the stablecoin output, the crypto dollar output is the the the main attraction? Or are these like kind of two sides of the same coin in your in your mind?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  That's a great question. So it all started with borrowing. I really had this idea like one and a half or even two years ago that what really makes borrowing most attractive? And the two aspects that I just mentioned are among like the most important ones. So it all started with borrowing. But then I realized that in order to achieve those two goals, you need to be able to mint your own currency. Because otherwise, you have capital costs. I mean, if you're like a matchmaker or you're like a pool-based platform, which takes money from lenders and gives it out to borrowers, then you would need to pay some interest to the lenders. So you cannot offer your loans for free or interest-free to the borrowers.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  So I quickly realized that, hey, this is only possible if we mint our own token. And normally, people, they want to get a loan denominated in something like in some currency that they are familiar with and the currency in which they receive their salaries. And that's for many people, the US dollar. And and so it made just sense to create a borrowing platform

• 9:10Speaker 02

  with this kind of stablecoin in mind, which is a US-dollar-backed stablecoin, which allows us to offer those two benefits.

• 9:19David Hoffman?

  So what is the the the main driver here then? Is it kind of in terms of expansion and I guess success of liquidity? Is it demand for LUSD, the coin itself? Or is it is it demand for the the unique borrowing opportunities that liquidity provides?

• 9:41Speaker 02

  I mean, at the end of the day, we need both because the system needs to reach some equilibrium. So there needs to be demand for the loans, but also demand for holding or investing or like using the LUSD. LUSD is the name of our stablecoin. So we have basically incentives for both in place. So for for the borrowers, it's like we already like mentioned them, like the fact that they are attractive. But then, on the other hand, we also needed to make sure that you can do something with your LUSD that you borrow. I mean, either you sell it to other people who can do something with it, or even you don't need to sell it if you decide to put it in something we call a stability pool, which is our main mechanism to liquidate positions.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  I can maybe delve into more into that like later. But with those, with this stability pool, we already created something that drives demand for buying and holding LUSD, our stablecoin. And on top of that, or in addition to that, we also have a few pools in other systems. Like now on Curve, we had one on Uniswap. Now it's on Curve, where we give out rewards to the LPs.

• 10:53David Hoffman?

  So let's go into that that stabilization mechanism, Robert. Because if we take a traditional model of like a central bank and they offer 0% interest rates, like there's going to be a ton of currency issuance, right? Like if you make money free for people, people are going to print it, right? And and so that's kind of the law of incentives, right? And so if so, if if there's so much like easy access to, you know, 0% interest rates with liquidity, or excuse me, liquidity, where does the stabilization of LUSD come from? Why doesn't it just drop down to like, you know, 0.99 cents, 0.8 cents? Like where does the floor price for LUSD come from?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  I would say we have two different mechanisms that help us to achieve a stable currency. And one of them is just this like softback mechanism that is already present in other systems like MakerDAO where borrowers have an incentive to borrow whenever the token is overpriced or overvalued and they have like a stronger incentive to repay whenever it's undervalued. But we wanted to have something which is stronger than that. So what we added is a redemption facility. So or redemption opportunity for every LUSD holder. And that basically means that you have this kind of right to exchange your tokens at face value for Ether.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  So you get like for 100 LUSD, you would get back $100 of Ether from the system. And that of course offers an arbitrage cycle or possibility whenever the price trades significantly below $1 because you can just buy the LUSD on the market for less than $1 and exchange it through this redemption for something that's more than $1 and then sell it and make a profit. So that's just one side like this.

• 12:49David Hoffman?

  Before you go on to the next one, I want to drive, I want to just drill that home a little bit because I think the reasons why you are able to do this and why LSD is able to be stabilized this way and correct me if I'm wrong is-

• 13:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  LUSD David, not LSD.

• 13:04David Hoffman?

  Pardon me. Pardon me. Only one letter off. And so the reason why Liquidity is able to stabilize LUSD is because it has extra strong commitments to Ether the asset as the only collateral, right? And so because, because Liquidity is governance minimized and it only has one collateral type, which is Ether, which has very strong competitive risk parameters, you are able to offer this redemption rate regardless of what the secondary market price of LUSD is. Is that correct?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  I would say, I mean, it makes it much easier to offer this redemption. Because we only need one, we only need to care about like one collateral type. I mean, in a multi asset or multi collateral system, it would be much more difficult and harder to achieve the same redemption facility. I mean, Ether has this nice property of being decentralized and being like the base currency of the Ethereum networks. Of course, it also adds to the stability of the system as a whole. Right, so.

• 14:15David Hoffman?

  Okay, cool. All right, so let's go into the the secondary mechanism about how LUSD is stabilized.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yes, I mentioned that we have this redemption, which kicks in when when the price drops below $1. And probably our system could have done just with this mechanism. So the secondary mechanisms like a nice to have in some way, like not necessity. But we'd also wanted to minimize redemptions as far as we could. Because redemptions, they affect the borrowers. Because basically what the system does when somebody redeems LUSD for Ether, then it would take the Ether from the borrower with the riskiest position. By riskiest, I mean with the lowest collateral ratio. So redemption from the borrower's perspective means premature repayment,

• 15:05Speaker 02

  which may not be like to the interest of the borrower. So that's why we wanted to minimize this friction for the lowest collateralized borrowers by introducing a fee. And it's basically a double fee, because we have a base rate that determines two fees. It determines a borrowing fee and a redemption fee. Now, as the name already says, the redemption fee is a fee on the redeemed amount, and it's a percentage. And the borrowing fee is a one-off fee, like a fee that you pay upfront, but only once when you borrow, and it's also determined as a percentage of the borrowed amount. And both of fees, they are, they are basically the same, or except for some like minor exceptions, but normally they, they move in tandem.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  And the way the system determines the fees is that it would measure like the amounts or the volumes of redemptions that happen during a time period. And it would adapt the fee like whenever somebody redeems, uh, the fee would go up. And if no redemptions happen over some time period, then the fee would decay slowly. And again, reach the minimum and the minimum here is 0.5% for both fees. Like there is this minimum, uh, cost of a loan, which is 0.5%.

• 16:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  So Robert, can you walk me through really quick? Let, let's say I want to borrow a thousand dollars, right? LUSD, what, what, what fees am I paying? How mu- and how much are they right now?

• 16:32Speaker 02

  So right now, I guess it's 0.53 or 54%. So it's almost the minimum. So you would basically then pay a $5.40. Um, like you don't get this amount. It's still part of your debt. Like basically when you borrow a thousand LUSD against, let's say two ether, then um, you only get 900. Yes, exactly. You get 995, but your debt would be a thousand. That's what happens.

• 17:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. And you pay that upfront. You don't actually pay it, but it's just part, it's rolled into the loan upfront. And that is the only fee. There's no interest fee.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  That's the only fee. And also I want to clarify here because that gets often confused. Like the redemption is really, it's not about repaying your loan. Like when the borrower repays their own position, we call them troves. Like when a borrower repays the trove, there is no additional fee on that. Like repayment is for free. I mean, the only thing is that this kind of borrowing fee was added to the initial debt.

• 17:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  So there's no redemption fee, just to clarify. The only fee you're paying is when you take out the loan initially and that fee will fluctuate. But that is the only P, uh, fee you're paying and, and you don't actually pay that. It just kind of comes out of the, it's rolled into the loan upfront. That's it.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Right, so we don't, like, we wouldn't use the term redemption for like this process of repaying and retrieving your collateral. I guess it's better to like use the term maybe retrieval or repayment for that because we are using redemption very specifically for this broader type of redemption, which is, let's say, also a thing in Terra, for example, or in centralized or centrally backed stablecoins like USDC, where any holder of USDC can exchange USDC for US dollars.

• 18:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Ah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  And that's the difference.

• 18:26Ryan Sean Adams?

  I see. So you're saying use the term redemption when somebody is exchanging LUSD for ETH, right? That's the term you use. And then retrieval when you're paying off a loan, essentially.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, repayment and then retrieval of your collateral.

• 18:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's cool.

• 18:45David Hoffman?

  And so the, instead of having the, you know, the interest rates paid over time in, you know, LUSD-denominated terms, you guys offer 0%, but you've taken that fee and put it somewhere else, which is a fee on the principal upon deposit, right? And so that, you know, this isn't completely magic. There is a fee somewhere, but instead of on the actual loan, it's on the actual deposit. And this is just one of the, one of the principles that we speak of on Bankless, like, if you can build it, someone will build it, right? And so somebody has built this, you know, credit facility where instead of charging you interest rates over time, it just charges you as a deposit.

• 19:26David Hoffman?

  And you said that there is like a, you know, a mechanism that perhaps reminds me of the RAI system with control theory where there's this, there are inputs and outputs and the fee will go up or down based on those inputs and outputs, but specifically not governance. It's more of a, of a, you know, more autonomous, more robotic system. And so that, that control theory of how the fee raises and lowers in an algorithmic fashion and also only have Ether, only having Ether as collateral is like some of the, probably the two biggest reasons why we consider LUSD a governance minimized stablecoin. Anything you want to add to that? And did I get that right?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great summary. It's really governance. Maybe you cannot say it's governance free because it's still reliant on an oracle which has its own governance. But except for the oracle, there is no single parameter or anything that we like as a company or the team or whoever like a governance body could change or adapt.

• 20:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  And the oracle is chain link right now?

• 20:33Speaker 02

  That's true. We have a fallback oracle, by the way. So if chain link fails, and that's also part of our philosophy. We have a number of rules that are all algorithmically determined, like basically they would like detect if there is an issue with chain link and then they would fall back or the system would then use teller. And they can also back when chain link comes back. So there's this.

• 20:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  I just want to wrap my head around the borrowing piece again. So one thing that used to drive, drive me a little bit crazy about Maker from a borrower's perspective is you go and you borrow on Maker, right? And then one month you're happy because the rates are 2% and then something happens in crypto. The next month, right? Your rates are suddenly double digit. You know, I've seen, seen rates. I don't know if this was 2018 or 2019. It's all a blur to me now, Robert, but like 20 plus percent on, on a loan that you kind of took out when rates were like 1 or 2%.

• 21:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  This can't happen with liquidity because you're paying upfront and it, correct me if I'm wrong, but you can choose, I'm not going to use the word redemption. You, you could choose to retrieve the loan, pay off the loan at any point in time. But you don't have to worry about that variability in interest rate. Is that correct?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Right, that's exactly one of the selling points that this one-off fee makes the loans not only cheaper if you have a long-term perspective, but also much more predictable. Because you don't have

• 22:15Ryan Sean Adams?

  And that's just it, you kind of have to have a long-term perspective because you are paying this fixed percent upfront. So like, you're not going to want to take this loan for a couple of days and then then retrieve it.

• 22:26David Hoffman?

  And you can't go in and out of loans all the time, like with AVE and Compound and Maker, you can go in and out, raise your loan, lower your loan, like you can kind of touch, high-touch loans. To me, an LUSD loan via Liquidity is more of a low-touch, long-term, time horizon perspective kind of loan.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Exactly, yeah, there's this trade-off that, yeah, I mean, for very short-term loans, it's like the fee can be significant. But I guess already after one month, like with the current Maker fees, if you compare it, it would become attractive.

• 23:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Very cool. All right, so you talked in there, Robert, a little bit about LUSD and its redemption mechanism as well. We've had some turbulence lately in crypto, right? Some like pretty historic even drops lately. So can you talk a little bit about how LUSD as a stablecoin has, or maybe crypto dollar? David, I don't know what term you'd use for this.

• 23:26David Hoffman?

  Crypto dollar.

• 23:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  Crypto dollar.

• 23:28David Hoffman?

  Crypto dollar.

• 23:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  LUSD as a collateral-backed, ETH-backed crypto dollar, how it's performed? I don't know if the best place to pull this up is on CoinGecko, but that's where I'm seeing some prices. And it looks like this is the 30-day, it looks like it held up fairly well. You know, maybe during some of these days on Wednesday, Black Wednesday, is that what we're calling it? I don't know. Dark, gray Wednesday, it wasn't great. We had some variance. Can you talk a little bit about that? Was this kind of to your expectations from a band of about, you know, 98 cents to stretching to a dollar and two cents, like kind of a four-cent band on the crypto dollar?

• 24:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Or like, what's your take? How did it hold up during this recent market turbulence?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Maybe one note on that, so we we just noticed that this chart may not be, like may not reflect the real price because it had apparently has some issues with the curve. Um pools, so I mean, we we um the our largest L S D pools are currently on curve and from what we can see there, I mean, we just created our own chart. Uh it it had it it, I mean, it was a bit more volatile around like May twentieth or when this happened. But uh the the deviation was a bit lower, I guess it wasn't more than three cents. Um at least on curve. Um so yeah, but I mean, there was uh there were few spikes in both directions.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Um which, I mean, it's hard to say why that happened, so we like what we can say, I mean, what we would expect is that whenever there is a short ether price drop, then people would want to repay their loans. Or some people would want to top up their collateral, but others don't have the means. So the only thing that they can do is either partially or fully repay the loans to um to prevent liquidation. I mean, they don't want to be liquidated because then they lose even more. So um and if people are trying to close their loans, so to say, that would have an impact on the L S D price, so normally or in theory, that should rather drive the price up than down.

• 25:45Speaker 02

  And that's what happened with DAI and U S D C uh a year ago, or so like a bit more than a year ago in this Black Swan event. And there were like there there are also some like academic papers on on that very topic. But now in in in our situation, it was a bit different. Um so around that day and also the the the following days, the price, it was hovering maybe around ninety nine, ninety eight, ninety nine cents. And the reason for that, I guess, I mean, it's hard to tell is that uh um. I mean, we have this stability pool. So in our system, people, many borrowers have their own tokens in the stability pool.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  And if they don't, they can, or when, if there is somebody in the pool, he may have an incentive to take out the LUSD from the pool and put it like, or sell it somewhere in the market, because this pool gets less attractive as the LUSD drops below $1. So this kind of stability pool can also act as a stabilizer in some way. So it would basically give more liquidity to the market so that borrowers have more liquidity available to buy in order to repay the loan. So that may be one reason why, why we didn't have this kind of sun spike upwards. And also another reason is maybe that, I mean, LUSD is quite a new project, or Liquid is quite a new project.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  And LUSD is not acting as a safe haven, maybe as USDC, when people are like just selling their ether for, for, for, um, like whatever stable currency.

• 27:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, I guess I was gonna say, like, it, it seemed to perform relatively well in not quite a black swan, but a gray swan type event, 60% ether loss.

• 27:32David Hoffman?

  We would call that a black swan if, if the COVID crash hadn't already happened.

• 27:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, or definitely if we were in mainstream finance, that would be like, like, like incredible volatility, unprecedented volatility. But like, I guess, it seems to me, LUSD held up fairly well in these types of conditions. So it's nice to, I mean, you guys are, LUSD is like, what, a month or so in, launched in April? And you, you have one of these 60% drawdowns in month two? Not too bad.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so we are really happy with this outcome. And it was like an early stress test of our system. And I guess this will also give some users or some prospective users, like confidence in the system. So that they know, oh, this system has already survived, something which is almost a black swan event. So, uh, yeah, they, they should trust it even more than before.

• 28:32David Hoffman?

  Robert, you mentioned that the CoinGecko price for LUSD might not be the best place to, to view the price. Where would, where do you go when you want to see the general value of LUSD on the secondary markets? Is there a resource that we can point our listeners to?

• 28:48Speaker 02

  So we just created a new Dune page for the curve price. I'm not sure if I can share it, maybe I could do that.

• 28:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Put a link in the chat and I'll show it on my screen in just a minute.

• 29:03David Hoffman?

  And I'll put it into the YouTube comments.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Right, I think I have it right, ready. Cool.

• 29:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Robert.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  It's still in progress, so this may change a little bit.

• 29:16Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay, let me just show that really quick.

• 29:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  So this is Dune. Man, Dune does everything, don't they?

• 29:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's just still loading. Let me share it as soon as it loads here.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  I hope my dev who created this will forgive me for showing off his like early work. It's like kind of in progress. So you've seen the middle chart. It is, we have to, the axes are a bit like off, but you can see that there was this like underpriced event, but if you hover over it, it should show, I guess, the price. It was like 3 cents off the USDC.

• 29:57David Hoffman?

  Wow, wow, that's crazy. Because like, you know, 3 cents is far off the peg, but like, we have to put things into perspective. Ether dropped 60%, 3% off the dollar for a, you know, call it 24, not even 24 hours, relatively is like really good. That is what stability looks like.

• 30:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, last time, so just what's interesting, I think, about liquidity in this protocol is like, last time we had such an event, 60% drawdown, was actually Black Thursday in March. And I remember looking at Maker that day and just like crossing my fingers, like, come on, die. Come on, pull through. But like, prices spiked to $0.8, $0.9, $0.10 on some exchanges. And what's interesting about that is the remedy, part of the remedy following Black Thursday for Maker was, what are we gonna do? We have to add a whole bunch of. Centralized collateralized bank crypto dollars. I'm using the term accurately now, David, not stablecoins crypto dollars. So USDC.

• 31:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  And now we have a point where, you know, the, the compilation of, of DAI has changed over time and it's gone up and down. But now I think it's something like a third of DAI is backed by USDC. And as advocates, like the show is called Bankless, right? Like the show is called Bankless, guys. Coinbase is, God bless them, a crypto bank. We like them as a bridge to this new world. But if all we're left with is crypto dollars from a crypto bank, what have we accomplished here?

• 31:41David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 31:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right? So that, that, that's why this is a really interesting niche. Like Maker, great experiment. It's running hugely supportive of MKR, DAI, DeFi. But this is another experiment and it's not backed by any central, centralized bank crypto dollars. It's backed purely by ETH and it held up in a gray swan 60% drawdown event. That's what's cool here, in my opinion.

• 32:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah, there, there is something to note of, you know, existential risk of like, what happens if all of Maker DAO is really just one collateral type? And if that one collateral type is Ether, that's one thing. If that one collateral type is a USDC, there's existential risk with, you know, Circle and whoever controls the USDC smart contracts kind of has leverage over the Maker DAO system. But then also it ultimately ends up just becoming a, an extension of the actual central bank, right? If, if the collateral is just like the dollar, the actual dollar, not crypto dollars. And so comparing and contrasting Maker to, to something like Liquid is a really helpful in this scenario.

• 32:50David Hoffman?

  And kind of why like, you know, Ryan and I, when we, when we put on our ETH maxi hats and we see a, an LUSD that's

• 32:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless maxi, sir.

• 32:58David Hoffman?

  Bankless maxi hats, yeah. Well, Ether has the most, one of the most bankless assets in the world.

• 33:05David Hoffman?

  It's, it's very, very competitive to a, a system that seems to be like, unlike Ether to me is like the uncorruptible asset, right? And so having the uncorruptible asset as the only collateral type and then having that stablecoin stay up. Awesome.

• 33:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Robert, I gotta ask here because like this seems like Maker with tweaks, really cool tweaks, to be honest. What about that Oracle thing? Can we get that out? Can, so Chainlink, had Chainlink got on, explained Oracles to us, awesome. But it is also an attack vector. Do you have any thoughts on how Oracles might progress? And whether we can get to an even more trustless set of Oracles or Oracle solution with Liquidity?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's an involved question. So, I mean, given that we cannot upgrade our system, even if a new Oracle became available in the future, we cannot like simply just take it and include it. I mean, we will need to deploy a new version. But I mean, maybe that would be a good reason at some point for a version two. But, but generally speaking, I don't quite see that many options on the, in the Oracle space right now that would be a good alternative. I mean, we have Telor, for example, as our fallback. I mean, it is, it has this kind of decentralization approach as well, which I really like. But it's, the thing that I see with Oracles is that there is a very sharp

• 34:37Speaker 02

  or difficult trade off between security and decentralization. Because, I mean, at least with the current gas prices, Oracle providers need to be paid, but at least compensated for the costs. And if you want to do that in a completely decentralized fashion, somebody needs to pay for it. And this may become an issue because you also need to somehow, I mean, if you do it really decentralized, then you need stakes that are locked up that can be punished or slashed if people misreport or like the providers misbehave. So you need to be able to extract enough revenue from your users using your Oracle

• 35:22Speaker 02

  so that you can give it back to the Oracle price providers or give back a high enough yield. So that they would stake like millions or billions of ether or worth dollars worth of ether. So that you can then secure a system that now like our system has like maybe a TVL of 2.5 billions. So you need to create an oracle that has a similar TVL. Um, that the system or even the higher TVL that the DeFi applications that is that it is powering. And that's kind of difficult to achieve.

• 35:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  What about, what about Uniswap and sort of a time weighted average oracle solution that they have put together? Does, is that helpful in any way?

• 36:05Speaker 02

  So it also comes with its own trade offs and I'm not even thinking of the fact that you have this TVOP period where you have. Uh, the issue that you need to set like a long enough period in order to have higher attack costs. But then your oracle won't be as like up to date. But there is this other thing, I mean, Uniswap is only able to give you a price for between two tokens. And then like what would be the other token against which we can measure LUSD? I mean, we can measure it either against our competitors. So to say stablecoin or against centralized stablecoin. So then it becomes, it, it inherits these issues from like the fact that centralized stablecoins may.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Go down maybe in the future and then this, this would also have an effect on the oracle price. So even that wouldn't be a perfect solution.

• 36:56Ryan Sean Adams?

  Robert, one last thing before we break for sponsors. Um, I, I just want to show this screen, which is ETH locked in liquidity. Um, actually this is, yeah, this is ETH locked in liquidity over time, April 5th. All the way to now, we've got had over a million ETH locked in liquidity. 1%. And 1%. Um, $5 billion at its peak. And of course that's related to price of ETH too. Um, how did, how did this happen so fast?

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were blown away by this growth ourselves. Um, so already during the first 10 days, it reached 1 billion. And then around two weeks into the life of liquidity, there was one big throw or like a super.

• 37:43Ryan Sean Adams?

  This one?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Big throw was.

• 37:46Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think I see it.

• 37:47Speaker 02

  I mean, we don't know it for sure, but rumors have it that it was Justin Sun, who just opened like a throw with 660.

• 37:57Ryan Sean Adams?

  6,000.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  6,100 K or 1,000 ether, which is kind of crazy. Um, yeah, and but, but even like without him, uh, I guess the rest is already remarkably high. And, uh, yeah, I mean, we wouldn't have expected this, but now it's, uh, it's there and it happened like amazingly fast.

• 38:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  When liquidity on Tron, sir? Is it coming? You don't have to answer that question.

• 38:27David Hoffman?

  Robert, we have a bunch of YouTube questions that we want to get to. And thanks everyone who have been in the YouTube, asking questions and patiently waiting for me and Ryan to get to those. So in the second half of this AMA, we're going to get to all of those YouTube questions. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Bankless is proud to be supported by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum, which is what Ryan and I call a money robot. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy.

• 39:10David Hoffman?

  Something brand new in the Uniswap ecosystem is the Uniswap Grants Program is now accepting applications for grants. We have been saying this for a while and we'll say it again. DAOs have money and they are in need of labor. If you think that you have something to contribute to the Uniswap DAO, apply for a grant to Uniswap. Just look at the size of the Uniswap Treasury. It's almost $3 billion. This mountain of capital is looking for labor. Do you have something of value to contribute to the Uniswap DAO? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a UniGrant at unigrants.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. That's exactly what we did to get Uniswap to be a sponsor for Bankless, and you can do the same for your project.

• 39:54David Hoffman?

  Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring Bankless. Gemini is the world's most trusted cryptocurrency exchange. I've been a customer of Gemini since I first got into crypto in 2017, and it's been my main exchange of choice to make my crypto buys and sells. Gemini is available in all 50 states and in over 50 countries worldwide, and on Gemini there are markets for over 30 various different crypto assets, including many of the hot DeFi tokens. And it's one of the few exchanges that has liquid DAI markets. Gemini just launched their Earn program, where you can earn up to 7.4% interest on 26 various crypto assets. If you're tired of paying fees in DeFi, or you don't want to worry about DeFi exploits, but you still want to earn interest on your crypto assets, Gemini Earn is the product for you. Another product I'm stoked to get my hands on

• 40:39David Hoffman?

  is the Gemini Crypto Back Credit Card, which gives you 3% cash back on all of your purchases, but paid to you in your preferred crypto asset. When I get my Gemini credit card, I'm going to make sure that I get my cash back in ETH, so whenever I buy something, I get a little bit of ETH bonus back to me at the same time. You can open up a free account in under 3 minutes at gemini.com/goBankless. And if you trade more than $100 within the first 30 days after your signup, you'll be gifted a free $15 Bitcoin bonus. Check them out at gemini.com/goBankless. All right, guys, we are back with Robert from Liquidity, and we have a bunch of questions from the YouTube that we want to get through, starting with a question from Justin Dover.

• 41:23David Hoffman?

  Are there any other assets coming to Liquidity other than Ether? Is that possible? And is that something that's on the roadmap?

• 41:32Speaker 02

  It's technically impossible with the current version and it's not in our short term or not part of our short term roadmap, but we are still open for future asset types that become available and that are suitable for liquidity being like a decentralized and like system. So those collateral types need to fulfill a certain set of criteria, like being large enough, like the market cap needs to be like large enough so that we don't become the main driver of the price and also it should be decentralized and like high quality, just to be short.

• 42:13David Hoffman?

  So we've time. Go ahead.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when this becomes available, we would of course evaluate the possibilities and see what we can do about it.

• 42:26David Hoffman?

  Robert, when I say things like ETH is the only trustless collateral on Ethereum, people sometimes call me an ETH maxi. Sir, are you an ETH maxi?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wouldn't say I'm not an ETH maxi. So I think it's just trustless in its own way. I mean, in its own right and nothing else comes really close, but you never know what will happen in the future and what people come up with. So you should always stay open for new innovations. And yeah, I mean, that's, I think, my philosophy.

• 43:09David Hoffman?

  There's, we've come across a number of conversations that have had some sort of just like, sure, that's possible, but we would have to redeploy liquidity into like a version two, right? Like if we wanted to update the oracles, if we wanted to add a collateral type. So is that something that you guys are chewing on, like a liquidity version two, where we take a bunch of positive ideas and integrate them? Or is this something that you're, the jury's still kind of out on and you guys aren't yet convinced about?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  We are in this phase that we, our system is still young and we, there are a few things that have already come up that we, we are like evaluating some inputs or some things that we may want to improve in a future version. But I mean, it's not like currently our short-term goal that we would start working on a version two, but we keep collecting improvements, new ideas uh that could at some point in the future lead to a version two that would be um like a massive improvement over the current system.

• 44:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  And Robert, am I right here when we talk about version twos, right? Like, we're not talking about governance being able to um vote and, you know, uh change kind of multi-state uh holders and redeploy updates and deploy updates, that sort of thing. We're talking about a version two in the way like Uniswap has a version two where version one doesn't really die. You know, version two comes along, version three comes along, and if the market wants those versions, then it goes and starts using them. That's sort of the uh governance by fork, I guess, you know, um approach that you guys are taking too, similar to Uniswap. Is that correct?

• 44:45Speaker 02

  Exactly. So that's the idea that people would choose either um to leave or stay.

• 44:53Ryan Sean Adams?

  Love that.

• 44:53David Hoffman?

  Another question from Justin Dover. Are, do you have any migration plans to go to optimism, Polygon, perhaps Arbitrum? Do you have any uh implementations with L2s that you guys are working on?

• 45:05Speaker 02

  It's a bit similar, though we have maybe put a bit more effort into exploring those solutions. Um we are currently in this wait and see phase. I mean, we see that there are a few options, like there is Polygon, which is already quite popular. Um but there are a few technical issues with all of the solutions that we have come, like come across. So it's not like as easy that you could just simply take the system and deploy it on an L2 solution, even though uh they are EVM compatible, but there are a few minor details that are not that minor that you need to change. And we don't, we don't want to rush into those in this decision. Like, probably there will be something with, because Ether or Ethereum is just not scalable.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  And it would be nice like a theory system that's much faster. But for the meantime, I would say it's more real or for the short term, it's more realistic to expect some maybe like only partial integrations, maybe in the sense that LUSD would become tradable on a layer two solution so that you can trade it like for much lower gas costs over there and then maybe bridge it like get back to the main chain like through a bridge.

• 46:22David Hoffman?

  What about LUSD integrations into various different DeFi apps? We just talked about how, you know, Ryan and I are have, you know, some concerns in the back of our minds about like too much USDC inside of MakerDAO to help stabilize the die price. Like what about LUSD in MakerDAO? Like that, I think would be a positive step in a good direction. Any other places where LUSD can get integrated into DeFi that you guys have your sights on?

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so MakerDAO would be interesting, though we haven't really

• 46:55Speaker 02

  thought of that, right? So other DeFi projects that could be interesting are like Alchemics, for example, but also Frax, where it could be used as collateral.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  I mean, there are also other places which are a bit easier or even more obvious, like just the DEXs, like Curve and other maybe SushiSwap where we would just spread, like make sure that liquidity is available on different places. And yeah, I mean, we also, we are also like happy to see that some wallet and automation services are popping up or they are now close to ready to integrate our system and to name a few. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure if I should name them, so, but there will be some news on that in the short term future. Like you know, we are already on Zirion and we are also on Argent, but they're similar, like automation tools.

• 47:51David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that's super cool. Like we do not want DeFi to be dependent on a centralized bank crypto dollars, right? And like with USDT and USDC.

• 48:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Like, these are all options and alternatives, but if DeFi becomes dependent on these, then we lose something. So having LUSD there is really fantastic. The other thing that I find interesting is you guys don't build your own user interfaces, which is kind of different, right? So like, your approach with user interfaces, correct me if I'm wrong, is like, you're providing the smart contract infrastructure, you're building the protocol, but there's no like official blessed liquidity user interface. You're depending on like Zapper or Zurion or anyone who wants to spin up their own user interface. And so we have tons of different UIs available. Is that the case and why that decision?

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. It's not as that we wouldn't or that we haven't released any UI. It's just that we are not running it. So what we did is we launched with the relatively basic bare bones UI launch kit, which we provided for free, like for download. And the protocol has some entrined incentives that make it attractive for third parties to run a front end because they get like the share of the reward based on the turnover that they generate or the users generate. And I mean, what we expect from that is some kind of competition and innovation from our front end operators because they are like competing with each other and they also have another lever,

• 49:31Speaker 02

  which is a kickback rate. They can set a rate which determines which part of the reward should go to the end user and which part of the reward should remain with the front end. And then also they can compete by adding new features, by improving upon our launch kit. And we have already seen some innovation, but we expect to see more in the future. And we know that some front ends are already working on really interesting features, which yeah, will become available probably in the next few weeks.

• 50:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Maybe the bankless, I was listening to this, so there's some incentive to build front ends to bankless products. Somewhat interesting. Can we talk about the incentive? So is this like almost like a liquidity mining type campaign? So if I, if somebody builds a front end, what is the incentive? And maybe this turns into the liquidity tokens next, LQTY. Can you talk about the incentives there and let's start talking about that token too?

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe I should start with the token. At the beginning, I mentioned we have two fees, like the system generates revenue from the borrowing fee and the redemption fee. And it captures this revenue and it gives it out or it pays it to the stakers of our secondary token, the LQTY. So everybody can stake the token and then become eligible for a pro rata share of the fee revenue. So that's what makes the token valuable in the first place. And on top of that, we have a liquidity or mining or yield farming system, if you want to use that word, um, which basically uh gives the stability depositors, like whoever

• 51:16Speaker 02

  secures the system by depositing LUSD to the stability pool would then become eligible for like kind of a community payout, like the system would pay out of like newly minted LQTY tokens to those who are in the pool, like again on a pro rata basis. So the more you deposit to the stability pool, the larger your your share is. And then you can basically by staking or sorry by depositing LUSD to the pool, you will get some LQTY over time and then you can stake your LQTY in order to get the fee revenue. So that's the the system, uh, how it plays together. And then also we have the frontends and they tie in

• 52:01Speaker 02

  through uh this stability pool. So whenever a user uh that goes through a specific front end um deposits LUSD to the stability pool, then this user would become eligible for like getting a continuous payout of liquidity tokens. But the system would maybe only pay out ninety five percent to this user because this five percent.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Would remain with the front end, like the front end could set this kind of kickback rate. And then the 95% would be the kickback, which is paid out to user and the 5% would stay with the front end.

• 52:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's like a referral fee, basically.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's, yeah, and it's based on the turnover. So it's not just based on user count, but.

• 52:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hmm.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:47David Hoffman?

  It's also adding a ton of surface area for competition, which at the end of the day, competition is always good for the customer. Uh, and so the, I think it's, it's pretty cool that you're leaving a lot of competitive innovation into the hands of, of the implementers rather than the team itself. Uh, Kevin Awaki on our State of the Nation stream yesterday talked about decentralizing stress. Uh, and so handing off responsibility over to people who want to compete for, for rewards, sounds like an, an interesting way to do that. Um, Robert, we're coming down to the end of, uh, our, our time here. And so we just have one, a few more questions that we want to get through. And everyone who's watching on the YouTube, thanks for being here. It's your last chance to get in questions.

• 53:28David Hoffman?

  Also subscribe to the channel and like the video. Um, and, and Robert, I want to ask about the LQTY token, the, the liquidity token. Uh, using, uh, the MKR token as a mental model, MKR gets, uh, minted or issued or diluted to, uh, in the event of, uh, you know, liquidations where the system cannot, uh, come up with enough collateral. Is there a similar mechanism with the LQTY token or, or what is the LQTY token in response or in relationship to the protocol?

• 53:59Speaker 02

  We don't have a similar mechanism, so there is no minting, uh, in, in case of an emergency. So the equity token has a hard cap. It's a hundred millions on its supply. What we have instead is a recovery mode, uh, which kind of acts as a last, like as a way to rescue the system in case of, uh, an under collateralization risk. But we don't need to dilute the equity by supply.

• 54:26David Hoffman?

  And so how does the LQTY token capture value? Um, I'm, I'm assuming there's some sort of, uh, fee capture mechanism, uh, going into the liquidity token.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we have the two fees, the borrowing fee and the redemption fee, and they are both captured and paid out to the stakers of equity tokens.

• 54:44David Hoffman?

  So it's not a buyback and burn model, it's a fee revenue model, it's a capital asset?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  It's like a dividend payout rather than a buyback.

• 54:53David Hoffman?

  Why do you like that better?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Um, good question. It's somehow easier to reason about, I would say, though economically speaking, I think in a perfectly rational world, the two should be economically equivalent, but for some people, it's easier to reason about like, or that you can keep your principle, like you gain something, it's psychologically maybe more attractive than just the outlook of like a raising, rising token price.

• 55:22David Hoffman?

  Why do you, why did you say over the long term, a buyback and burn model or a capital asset model is logically the same? How, how do those converge upon the same things over time?

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, it's, it's probably hard to tell. I mean, the, the idea is that you, I mean, when you burn tokens, you would do that, I mean, to get some value. I mean, there is some reason why, why the system can burn tokens and that's like for, like, let's say, like you capture the fee through burning and it's the same value that you can capture through burning that you would be able to pay out to the stakers. Maybe there is one like slight difference here, which is that when you stake, there will always be non-stakers. Like, it's not realistic to assume that a hundred percent of the tokens will be staked. So it means that the lazy or like maybe the ignorance, they will lose out. So

• 56:15Speaker 02

  whoever is a staker would get like a higher relative share while with, with, with the burning mechanism, every holder benefits in the end because the value.

• 56:25David Hoffman?

  A bit more active.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 56:28David Hoffman?

  Um, and, and so how do you think, do you think that fees paid to the, to the system are going to be like relatively stable over the long term? Or is there going to be waves of high fees and troughs of low fees? What kind of data or speculation do you have on this?

• 56:46Speaker 02

  So what we've seen so far is that the fee revenue is very variable, like it worries from day to day and it can go up by 10x and then plummet by 20x and like it's really, but you have to look at it like in a longer term perspective, like you cannot say that the revenue will be stable. So that's like maybe the part in our system, which is a bit like unpredictable for the staker, but you have also have to take into account that you have no risk. I mean, as a staker, you get your principal back. So it's like a yield that you get without any added risk.

• 57:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think what's cool about that is I think we'd only see a design like that in a DeFi protocol, because in the traditional financial world, that level of variability, I mean, they probably wouldn't like that. You know, traditional bank having, you know, a 10x spike and then nothing for, you know, a period of time and then another huge spike, but like a protocol doesn't care. Anyway, I have a final question for you, Robert. It's been a pleasure having you on today to explain this. I'm really excited about what Liquid is doing. What other stablecoin or crypto dollar projects out there seem the most interesting to you?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  I would say I like the hybrid approach taken by Frax. It's an interesting approach because we have seen that like purely algorithmic stablecoins were probably are probably destined to fail, while other protocols like Liquidity are like need to be over collateralized. But then there is maybe a middle ground that can can work, which is less or even more capital efficient if you look at the macroeconomic numbers than Liquidity. But I mean, it's a completely different system. It doesn't use borrowing as its main driver and backing mechanism.

• 58:45Ryan Sean Adams?

  And then in general, on the categories, it sounds like you're kind of bearish on purely algorithmic stablecoins. Is that correct? Do you think a good stablecoin crypto dollar design needs to be collateral backed in some form?

• 58:58Speaker 02

  I fear that it doesn't really work without any collateral. Now, there are like some projects like Terra, for example, and synthetics in a sense that are kind of using their own collateral, which is a bit similar to the algorithmic ones, but also it's also kind of a hybrid approach between the fully algorithmic stablecoins and the fully backed stablecoins. And I mean, they have proven to work so far, but nobody knows what will happen in the future.

• 59:29Ryan Sean Adams?

  And Terra recently had some troubles with that Grey Swan event. But hey, go ahead and say on Bankless, let a thousand flowers bloom. We are experimenting. And you know, the best protocols will rise to the top over time. So, Robert, thank you for guiding us through that.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you for having me.

• 59:49David Hoffman?

  Robert, if people want to find out more about Liquidity and join the community, where should they go?

• 59:55Speaker 02

  They should go to liquity.org and just find our Discord and join the community. It's a very active community.

• 1:00:04David Hoffman?

  Awesome, awesome. Well, guys, thank you again for coming to this Bankless weekly, bi-weekly, excuse me, AMA with Robert from Liquidity. If you guys are watching on the YouTube, make sure to like and subscribe because we do this every other week. And we also want to know from you, who do you guys want to have on next on the show? What questions, what projects, what people in the space do you guys have questions for? And that's why you should subscribe to the YouTube. And Ryan, will you please do the canonical disclaimer?

• 1:00:33Ryan Sean Adams?

  Of course I will. Guys, ETH is risky, DeFi is risky, so is Liquidity. All of this stuff is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.