What the ETH Futures Approvals Mean for Crypto with Eric Balchunas

Last week was unprecedented, to say the least. Several, yes that’s right, not 1, not 2, but several ETH Futures ETFs launched last week for the first time in the U. S.! What does this mean for crypto? Volumes have been surprisingly low. Is it a surprise? Will volumes pick up? Regardless, of whether they do or don't, what do all of these ETH ETFs mean for crypto? Are Bitcoin ETFs next? We brought on Eric Balchunas to help us answer the above and much more. is an analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence focused on exchange-traded funds. Eric is an analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence focused on exchange-traded funds. ----- 🏹 Airdrop Hunter is HERE, join your first HUNT today https://bankless.cc/JoinYourFirstHUNT ------ 📣 a16z Startup School | Apply Before Oct. 20th https://bankless.cc/a16z-startup-school ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE ⁠https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 ⁠ https://feeds.flightcast.com/%E2%81%A0https:/k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2%C2%A0%20%E2%81%A0 🦊METAMASK PORTFOLIO | MANAGE YOUR WEB3 EVERYTHING ⁠https://bankless.cc/MetaMask https://feeds.flightcast.com/%E2%81%A0https:/bankless.cc/MetaMask ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum ⁠ https://feeds.flightcast.com/%E2%81%A0https:/bankless.cc/Arbitrum%C2%A0%20%E2%81%A0 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/Toku 🦄UNISWAP | ON-CHAIN MARKETPLACE ⁠https://bankless.cc/uniswap https://feeds.flightcast.com/%E2%81%A0https:/bankless.cc/uniswap 🔗 CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 7:12 Why ETF Week Was Unprecedented 11:15 Magnitude of Many Launches 16:40 Futures Less Than Spot? 18:25 ETHE vs. Futures 23:43 Is ETH a Security? 28:28 Why Do We Care About ETH ETFs? 32:40 Spot Approval Interpretation 37:23 Scope of the Opportunity 46:50 Timing Predictions of Spot Approvals 51:00 Gensler Preventing Spot Approval? 55:30 Eric’s Twitter 57:00 Closing & Disclaimers ----- RESOURCES Eric Balchunas https://twitter.com/EricBalchunas ----- Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Station, it's time for the ETH Futures Derby. It just began last week and the past week has been unprecedented, to say the least. That's a word we use in today's episode. Several, not just one, but several Ethereum Futures ETF launched for the first time in the US, the first time ever. So what does this mean for crypto? Volumes have been surprisingly low? Is that a surprise? Is that bearish? Will volumes pick up? And regardless, if they don't, what do all of these ETH ETFs mean for crypto? Are Bitcoin spot ETFs next? And after that, maybe do we get Ether spot ETFs? David, who do we have on the show today to explain all of this and walk us through these questions?

• 0:45David Hoffman?

  Mr. ETF himself, Eric Balchunas. He is a commentator on Bloomberg, on Twitter, and just knows perhaps everything there is to know about these ETF products, the ins and the outs. Eric's going to tell you all the reasons why these particular Ether Future ETF products are dumb and bad and are just simply a means to an end of a much better, brighter future, which we definitely talk about, that Eric thinks is coming very soon this calendar year, which of course is the spot Bitcoin ETFs and a much sooner-than-expected spot Ether ETF than I think Ryan and I were ready for in this show.

• 1:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh yeah, this is a bullish episode, guys.

• 1:20David Hoffman?

  There's been a bunch of conversations around crypto Twitter, it's like, why are people so excited about this futures product? This show will answer that question. It's a means to an end and that end is much closer than what people think. Meanwhile, while you are getting educated about the spot Bitcoin and Ether Futures ETF and all that shenanigans, there's another way to get educated, which is the A16Z Startup School. Just drop out of wherever school you're, if you're in college, you're getting MBA, just drop out and apply to the A16Z Startup School. You get some real experience. What is the A16Z Startup School? It is a place for crypto founders to become founders. It is an accelerator program to get your idea, your crypto idea, bootstrapped. It's a 12-week in-person school in London, March 27th through June 11th in London in

• 2:05David Hoffman?

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• 2:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  I should specify, you guys don't actually have to drop out of school. That's a, you know, not necessary, but this is this is probably a more useful school than the school you're going to now. If you are in school. David, why is this episode so significant? Why are we spending the time on Bankless, which is a program about crypto? I thought we were escaping the banks here, David. Why are we spending time talking about an Ether Futures ETF? And the broader implications of that?

• 2:59David Hoffman?

  Eric really said it well. These products are a bridge, a bridge from the crypto protocols to the world of TradFi. Why do we want that? Well, in my mind, this is a winning of a thumb war for the crypto side of things. The TradFi gets to have their ETFs, which is their composable unit money Lego for their world. But really, all the value inevitably flows into our world, into Ether, into Bitcoin, through the ETF. This is a, this is a win for crypto. It is a stepping stone towards legitimacy. It is the biggest pipes between multiple trillions of dollars of capital and the cryptocurrency market cap, which is just 1 trillion. And it's really just Bitcoin and Ether, which combined is something like 700 to 800 billion. So like, think of a pipe.

• 3:44David Hoffman?

  It's the biggest pipe that's ever been constructed. On one end of the pipe is 30 plus trillion dollars of capital management.

• 3:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's what he said.

• 3:51David Hoffman?

  By TradFi, that's what he said. And then the 800 billion meager market caps that are the combined Ether and Bitcoin market caps. When a pipe that's very large opens up in ways that TradFi is only going to be ever comfortable with buying crypto, which is in their ETF formats, that is bullish. And like I said, it's not necessarily going to be these products, but these products are the necessary prerequisite towards the bigger ones. Eric explains that it's all in this show that we're about to have right now. So let's go ahead and get right into that conversation with Eric Balakounis, Mr. ETFs. But first, a moment to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, especially Kraken, our preferred crypto exchange for 2023. If you want to actually buy some real Bitcoin, some real Ether, and not be confined by the world of TradFi, Kraken is the place to do it.

• 4:37David Hoffman?

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• 6:49David Hoffman?

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• 7:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Bankless Nation, we are very excited to introduce you to Eric Balachunas. He's an analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. He's focused on ETFs, that is, exchange traded funds. Eric knows ETFs. This last week, actually, last week by the time you listen to this, nine ETH future ETFs all launched on last Monday, and Eric is going to help us unpack it this week. Eric, welcome to Bankless. How are you doing?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Hey, good. Nice to be here.

• 7:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  It's great to have you. You've been covering ETFs, specifically crypto ETFs, with a lot of rigor. You are one of the main accounts I go to when I want up to date information. And you had this fantastic hype tweet last Monday. "Unprecedented day today with multiple ETFs all launching at the same time. No clear winner has emerged. All of them were pretty average, lower than I would have predicted. But it's a long run, and remember, these hold futures. ETF investors much prefer physical to derivatives." Okay, so the ETH futures launched last Monday. Tell us, you used the words unprecedented. Why is that unprecedented?

• 8:13Speaker 02

  Right, so there's been many ETFs. There's 3,200 ETFs and change, something like that. And there's been many launches. There was a gold launch. There's been oil futures ETFs. So it's not so much that it's an ether or futures that's unprecedented. What's unprecedented is the SEC approving many at the same time. Normally in the ETF world, when you file determines when you get out. There's like a protocol to that. And the SEC...

• 8:40Speaker 02

  For the first time ever, broke from that. And we have heard back channel that the reason they did this is because remember the ProShares Bitcoin Futures ETF launched two years ago. It had like a three day head start on the rest. And it has like 97% of all the volume of its peers and 94% of the assets. So I think the SEC wanted to eliminate that, what we call first mover advantage. Because they didn't want to sort of like give one ETF that that sort of, I don't know. It's almost like playing kingmaker, although in the E futures category, there's not a ton of assets. So it's not like you're going to become a king. But obviously having them all out at the same time is interesting to us.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  And because it is unprecedented and a foreshadow for the main event, which would be the spot Bitcoin race, where we do think they'll also let many issuers out at once. When you have many issuers out at once, it puts a lot of pressure on marketing and maybe fee and other variables. When you're not first out. So that's why we've seen a little jockeying from like Banec, who has a lower fee. Also, they've said they're going to donate 10% of the profits to charity. They've had some commercials. Bitwise kind of coming out and saying, you know, we're more crypto native. That's our thing. And then ProShares, you know, probably saying, I haven't seen them do too much marketing yet.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  But obviously my guess is they're trying to tap their current Bito clients. Cause they've already got that as a major hit product. So all of them are trying to play to their advantages. And it's just interesting to see who will win. Because generally in an ETF category, there's really only one stud liquid, you know, ETF that has the majority of the volume. And when you have the majority of the volume, it's a good place to be because you have pricing power. When other ones come out that are lower fee, it's harder for them to penetrate your liquidity. And for the people who like to trade, they value liquidity. So that's why to this day, GLD is still the most traded gold ETF, even though there's dozens and many more cheaper.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  And something like EEM, which is the iShares Emerging Markets, there's been Many cheaper, four times cheaper, and EM still trades a couple billion a day because there's definitely a crowd who just loves liquidity and prefers it. So those are the dynamics in this race that as an analyst, it's interesting to look at. Although I gotta say, there's really not been enough volume overall to really make anyone a winner yet. It's gonna take a while. Normally, you know, in a couple days. I think this one, it will take a couple weeks.

• 11:17David Hoffman?

  I think bankless listeners are certainly familiar with the idea that liquidity is this black hole. The network effects lead to a single dominant winner. Eric, I want to ask about this signal that nine different products are all launching at once. You call this unprecedented. What should we know about the significance of so many suppliers coming into the market all at once to serve this product?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's actually not nine. It was nine ready to launch. One of them withdrew, just like any horse race where, you know, like in the Kentucky Derby, there's a few scratches. Volatility shares dropped out. Kelly, I think, was late to launch. I'm missing one. And then Valkyrie was more of a name change. But anyway, just to make a long story short, there's seven or eight on the market. And remember, a couple of them have Bitcoin and Ether together. So I wouldn't call those exact replicas, but there's definitely, without a doubt, three straight E3 ETFs, and then three or four Bitcoin plus Ether. All of those launching at the same time. And so I think if you're in this community, and I

• 12:22Speaker 02

  try to tell people this, you know, Ether and futures, in my opinion, are not, like, you've spot Bitcoin. That's always been the holy grail. So this is neither of those. This is not Bitcoin. It's Ether, which to me, from my point of view, you guys may differ from the, in the crypto world, and Matt Hogan thinks Ether is gonna be bigger than Bitcoin. But to me, it's like the no-name opening band before the headliner. You know, you go to see a band and... Like you're like, uh,

• 12:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  I'm sure it's like that for a lot of institutions too, to be fair right now, right?

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, this is the band you just talk to your friend through and just, you know, you just, okay, let's get through it and let, okay. And then when your band, the regular band comes on that you came to see, you go crazy. And I think that's what this feels like. It's just like a opening event. And other, the other thing is, not only is Bitcoin, I think, way more interesting to casual people, but the, the idea that it's spot, there's something about derivatives that's like spraying advisor repellent on the ETF. They don't like ETFs that hold futures contracts. It came, it really comes from a history of ETFs when there was like natural gas and oil futures ETFs.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  There are certain commodities where you can't do spot because like, if you did an oil, you could, an oil spot ETF would require the ETF issuer storing barrels of oil in a warehouse and the oil goes bad, it's dangerous, it stinks. You can't do it, just like you can't do spot corn. You could do spot gold, just, you have to think to yourself, could I actually store this in a warehouse? How hard is that? And if it, you know, gold, silver, palladium, platinum, you can do that, but not with oil, natural gas. And the case of oil, going from one month futures contract and then selling it and buying the next month out before that one expires, that's called rolling. That can cost you 20, 30% in the oil market. So USO and UNG have burned advisors.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  So they have this once bitten, twice bitten, three times shy kind of thing with using futures ETFs. So that's why I don't put, I know, I was, you know, I had already sort of lowered my expectations because they're futures. That said, I just think you should, the crypto world should look at all of these as bridges to the advisory world and traditional finance. And it's going to facilitate some traffic because Bitwise has salespeople, ProShares has salespeople, who's the other one? VanEck has salespeople. When they go out and talk to somebody, a client, an advisor, they're going to have

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Their toolbox and Ether Futures ETF now. So if the advisor has a client who's just really into this particular cryptocurrency, bam, hey, well, we have that. So over time, just the fact that this is one of the ETFs in the menu of things they're selling to advisors is probably overall good. Like I said, it's like a bridge to this whole other world. It's just that the natural interest right now for it is pretty weak. But it's a long game. It's a long run. This is a bridge that just opened. I think compared to Bitto, when Bitto launched, it was at the October 2021, which was the height of a mania. It was like Bitcoin fever, you know?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And so it launched bam right into that and it tapped into this immediate unmet demand. But what's interesting is it took in a billion in the first week. It still has a billion. So it's almost the reciprocal where everything came in in like three days to Bitto. Clearly there had been some pent up demand. It got that. But then after that, it was just more traded. It wasn't like there was a ton of demand. Part of it is because the crypto Bitcoin fell a lot. That Bitto was kind of the top and then Bitcoin fell, the mania kind of died down. Then you had FTX. So Bitto has been at the same asset level as the first three days it launched. I think this is the reverse and I think this spot Bitcoin will be the reverse where it won't have this really quick day one, day two

• 16:22Speaker 02

  bonanza where it breaks records and whatnot. But over time, as the sort of slow penetration of these products gets into the advisor community, you know, they're going to nibble here and there. And I think over the long haul, you're looking at a very vibrant category. But I will say one thing. Let's just say there's an Ether spot and a Bitcoin spot. These futures ETFs will go extinct.

• 16:49Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really? I was going to ask you about this. So these are basically inferior. You were talking about an opening band versus kind of, you know, the main act, right?

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  The futures are basically kind of the opener for the main act, which is spot, right? Because futures are an inferior product. Is that correct? And that's due to primarily slippage fees from a kind of investor perspective?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's from that process of rolling from one month to the next. So this year, like for example, Bitto. Is probably trailing Bitcoin returns by 7, 8%. Now, you're up 65%, so you're not that pissed off. But still, if I told you BitO charged 6% fee, you'd be like, that's outrageous.

• 17:30Ryan Sean Adams?

  That is outrageous.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, roll costs don't show up in the expense ratio, but they are real. And again, advisors have had a history of learning this the hard way through these other commodities. So when the spot comes out, you're going to find a migration over to spot. So these futures are almost like placeholders. But again, it's getting the, as long as these issuers are out having conversations with people, that's probably good. But over time, the spot will render the futures probably almost useless. For example, there was a gold futures ETF, DGL. It just closed up shop about a year ago. It had, I think at its peak, 500 million, and then just went down and down. And the issuer was like, what's the point? So gold spot ETFs have 100% of the assets in the gold category.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  So, you know, I'm a fan of patterns. I would assume something similar would happen with both Ether and Bitcoin, where the spot would just take over and the futures would slowly go extinct.

• 18:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, I want to ask you about another product. So we talked about futures, we talked about spot. There's already these trust-type products, which are, I don't know what you'd classify them as, but you know, something like GBTC on the Bitcoin side. And on Ether, the only way I could previously purchase Ether inside of my Fidelity account or something like this, or Charles Schwab, was to buy ETH-E is the product. And this is a trust. How do Ether futures compare to ETH-E?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I would say compared to GBTC and ETH-E, the futures are a step up.

• 19:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Because here's why. Day to day, the Ether futures and the Bitcoin futures ETF are going to track spot pretty damn well. Day to day. Over a year, you may have roll costs creep in. But if you're trading it, there really is, it's not that bad.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  The bigger issue, but still, if you bought Ether Futures or Bitcoin Futures, let's say you made a call and you said, "You know what? I think Ether is going to go up 20%." And you bought Ether Futures ETFs. And let's say it went up 20% over a year. You might get 18%, right? Or 17%. So you made a bet and you got most of the money, right? You're not like, you're not, you're a little pissed, but it's, you know, it's, you can live with that. The problem with ETH and GBTC is you can actually make that bet and lose money. That's insane to me. That is going to leave a real nasty taste in investors' mouths. It's a stupid product, right? It's like, it doesn't make sense. It's broken. It's broken.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  It's essentially, the reason ETFs rule and have really swept the country is not just that they're low cost and they're liquid. It's, it's that they're arbitrageable. So because you have creations of shares and redemptions of shares, every day, all day, there's like a two-way street. If the price of the ETF creeps up above or below the underlying, someone could arb that and make risk-free profit. So that natural incentive to arbitrage is amazing. That's the secret sauce of ETFs. And you don't have that in ETH and GBTC. These are simply a fixed amount of shares that was issued in a private trust that they allowed to trade over the counter.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  So you cannot go and create new shares or destroy them in the same way you can with an ETF. And this is part of why ETFs have, have sort of kicked to the side other fund vehicles, one of them being closed-end funds, which have the same problem, which is the price is unhinged from the value of the underlying. And I always tell people, like, you know, when the SEC didn't approve it, I was like, "This is dumb. They should approve it immediately because..." Even if Bitcoin goes down, or up, or sideways, people are okay with that. They just wanna, when they make a bet, they want the bet to be their bet, not some other variable. And so, in the case of GBTC, I could point out a time where you had the bet right,

• 21:32Speaker 02

  but you lost money because of that discount that formed in GBTC. Or you lost, or Bitcoin was down, and you were down double. And that is really nasty, nasty surprise. And so, that's why I am a proponent and dedicated my career to ETFs, is because I, they have a great track record, and they're just a good technology that just allows people to get a fair deal. Doesn't mean it's gonna go up, obviously, it can go down, but at least you go down the same. And there's no, like, there's nothing else there. Now, the futures ETFs, I could say, you do have that third element of roll costs, which is why we do consider those red light ETFs. To me, ETFs need movie ratings, and there are some R-rated ETFs,

• 22:17Speaker 02

  and I do put anything that rolls futures is rated R. Which is so ironic, because a spot Bitcoin ETF would be a green light rated PG ETF to me. Isn't that ironic, the SEC approved all these R-rated ETFs, in our system at least? And they even approved the double-leverage Bitcoin futures, which is like, like, that's almost like NC 17, right? And yet, they won't approve the spot. So the whole thing is so silly, in my opinion. And so, this is why the ETF is so coveted and desired. And I think, you know, even for a crypto person, and you can use your own wallet and stuff, and that's great, you should use it.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  But for a good, you know, giant, massive investors, especially boomers, and even young people, but anybody who uses an advisor in particular. ETFs are the preferred vehicle because it's amazing track record of tracking the underlying well, having very good tax efficiency and being, you know, low cost and I'll get the instant liquidity whenever you want it on exchanges. So that's why this is such a big deal to us is because you're sort of your marriage of two worlds, which is the sort of traditional finance boomer advisors and the crypto world. The ETF is something like the bridge that will unite them. And it's a good bridge. It's a sturdy bridge. And

• 23:40Speaker 02

  that's why I would have a proponent of it since it's really the Winkle boss filing.

• 23:44Ryan Sean Adams?

  I mean, we like it and we're fans of it. And I, you know, I think it's great. And what's more, I will emphasize, I think it's a kind of a retail crime that it wasn't approved earlier. When you've got products like GBDC and ETH that are trading either, you know, two, three X of NAV or like below that. And right now ETH is like 25% below that. And I don't even know what we're betting on. That has to be beyond an NC 17 rating. I don't even know what that is. It's just a silly, silly that we have those products. Well, let me ask one, one last question on this whole idea of this being unprecedented. Okay. So it was unprecedented because so many were launched at kind of the same time. The, the other, and I don't want to lose sight of this. I think this is important, or you tell us, Eric. The other reason I think this is unprecedented is because, look, crypto

• 24:27Ryan Sean Adams?

  has a lot of different assets. You know, go look at our long tail of assets beyond Bitcoin and Ether. All right. We could name a whole bunch for you, some of which you may have heard of, some of which, you know, no one's heard of. But this is the first time that an ETH futures ETF was approved in the United States. And I'm wondering what that says about Ether as an asset relative to the long tail of other crypto assets, if anything. Is that unprecedented? Is that significant to have an Ether's futures? Are we saying effectively that the SEC is saying, oh, it's not really a security, but like we can't say it's not a security?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  I get this a lot. I can't say I'm, this is my wheelhouse. And I get that you would read into that. But let me give you some background that's a little not yet known or isn't that known, which is that the reason Ether Futures ETFs came out, I don't think is more the SEC changing its opinion of it being a security or not, but more of the fact that ETH futures are traded on the CME.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Which just means they're regulated by the CTFC, CFTC, whatever.

• 25:37Ryan Sean Adams?

  Which is, which is the C is commodities in CFTC.

• 25:40Speaker 02

  True. So, but that's a whole nother issue. I will let the regulating analysts debate that. But I don't think this was approved because of a change in whether ETH is a security. I think this was approved simply because A, that is, the ETH futures are regulated in a way. And B, there's a company named VolShares who ran the stop side. The SEC had said, don't file these. And there was a filing, they told them withdraw. This happened like four or five times over the last eight years. And then VolShares came in with this Bitcoin leveraged futures ETF. SEC said, please don't do this. But VolShares is like, I'm just a small company.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  I don't really care. You're going to have to send me a cease and desist or I'm launching. And they, they called their, they basically like, basically called the SEC's bluff. And the SEC did not do that and they launched. And so VolShares is like, all right, well, that worked. Let's do ETH futures. And so in a way, VolShares, that's why we call him the Dark Knight. He's sort of like vigilante justice, this guy named Stu. He really forced the issue on the SEC. And I think because of the grayscale suit and some other things, although the SEC had the strength or even care, I think they just backed down. And so in a way, I don't think they love that these are launching, but this one issuer

• 27:06Speaker 02

  kind of pushed the issue. And so I don't think it's them changing their mind on. But I will say, the fact that they didn't fight this issuer tooth and nail shows that maybe there is some softening overall in their whole thing. And again, we have heard back channel, you know, you heard it here first. Now others are reporting it that the SEC is engaging with the issuers on their spot filing. So even though they were all delayed till January, they're sending emails to the spot filer saying, hey, could you please address the comments we have about your S1 filing? That is a really good sign. They never did that.

• 27:40Ryan Sean Adams?

  Is this for Bitcoin only spot filing, Eric, or Bitcoin and Ether?

• 27:45Speaker 02

  I have not heard anything on the Ether front. My guess is whatever they fix for the spot Bitcoin will carry over. But my guess also is the SEC is probably going to be like, let's get Bitcoin done first and then we'll look to Ether after. Do it, you know, just do us a favor. Let's put this off to the next run. So my guess is you'd probably have a batch of Bitcoin and then Ether. But the good news is if you can get it, all the SEC's comments answered in this S1 for Bitcoin. All of that would apply to the Ether situation as far as I know. So I would just sort of leave it there in terms of that. So I just, I don't think there was a change in their view.

• 28:26David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  It was more of those other reasons.

• 28:28David Hoffman?

  Yeah. So let's zoom out then and try and place the significance of this week in just the arc that is the story of crypto being accepted and legitimized in the traditional finance world. So like, why do we care about an Ether Futures ETF? When we know, like what you said, is like, these are all just going to be considered defunct once we get a spot ETHE's ETF in the future. So is this just meant to be like a stepping stone to get to that point? Does this account for why some of the volume was maybe on the lower side? Like, what is the real significance of this week if we're not truly excited about the actual products being released here?

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, stepping stone is a good word for it. I think, you know, it's, it's all progress. And the more this becomes just a familiar thing to the SEC, regulators and advisors. It's probably going to be good for the overall acceptance of this by that, again, more conservative boomer crowd.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I guess that's how I'd look at it. But to your point, you know, to my point at the beginning, this is again, the equivalent of, it's not like, this isn't like Lollapalooza where I'm going to be Gen X here. Where you have like, you know, Smashing Pumpkins opening for Primus and like both bands are good. Okay, this is like the band you never heard of, nobody's ever heard of, and they will go nowhere. Opening for Smashing Pumpkins or Rage Against the Machine or something like this, Alice in Chains.

• 30:01David Hoffman?

  How much of that is true because of the-

• 30:03Speaker 02

  If you ask me to do like millennial Lollapalooza, I can't do it. So I'm just going to stick to that. But like I said, I would look at this not just as it, it's a minor stepping stone.

• 30:13David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:15David Hoffman?

  How much of that is true because of the futures element? And how much of that is true because of the Ether element? Like, me and Ryan, we live in Ethereum every single day, so it's a very big deal for us.

• 30:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, honestly, the Boomers should be a lot more bullish on Ether than they probably are.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you guys know Matt Hogan?

• 30:30David Hoffman?

  Of course, yeah, we've had him on podcasts a handful of times.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  He thinks Ether should and will be bigger.

• 30:36Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, he's right.

• 30:37David Hoffman?

  I think Matt might have forgotten. Matt, I'm sure is a listener of Bankless.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I trust Matt. He's a very smart guy, one of the best communicators and presenters I've ever seen. And that's a big statement from him. So, I definitely feel you. I think it's probably a little more of the futures element.

• 31:00David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Like, if Bito launched today, they would not have a billion dollars in three days. Again, the mania in 2021 was off the chart. And remember, Bitcoin was mostly still unvarnished, or unblemished.

• 31:17David Hoffman?

  Yes, yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  FTX was a gigantic black eye.

• 31:20David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  So, it's gonna be a real slow build-up to get people won over. At that time, the FOMO was through the roof to buy at that price. I know, because that's when my wife was like, "We should buy this stuff." At $68,000 or whatever. So, you know, when your friends and family and your college friends are like, "How can I get this Bitcoin thing?", that's when Bito launched, right there. Then it was a sell-off.

• 31:47David Hoffman?

  It was October 2021, like, top of the market.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yes, literally the peak, literally the peak. So, you have to just look at that as like a zeitgeist-y kind of moment. You don't have that now. And so, if Bito launched now, it would be probably more popular than the Ether Futures ETF, but not that popular as when it launched. Number two, Ether ETFs amongst all crypto funds in the world have 20% of the assets. That's pretty good. So over time, I would think in the US, an Ether spot would get 1/5 of the assets of the Bitcoin ETFs. Again, based on the patterns of where we're at globally, because remember, these things exist in other countries.

• 32:31Speaker 02

  So I would think you're shooting for there. If Matt Hogan's right, maybe it grows beyond 20, but that's sort of where it's landed in equilibrium currently with crypto funds globally.

• 32:41David Hoffman?

  Okay, so really, I think the way that I interpret the significance of this whole thing is this is just an important stepping stone to get to the spot Bitcoin ETF and hopefully eventually the spot ETHE ETF, which notably Grayscale did file to convert their trust into an ETF in the future, assuming that these things happen. And I think one of the indications here is with the approval of a spot ETHE's ETF, the eventual spot, uh, excuse me, yeah, with the approval of a Ether Futures ETF, the spot ETHE ETF is inevitable in the fullness of time at some point, along with the spot Bitcoin ETF. And this is happening in the bear market, in the crypto bear market. Meanwhile, SBF is currently going on trial, and so we're kind of like cleaning our past up a little bit.

• 33:25David Hoffman?

  The significance for all of this, I think, will eventually culminate when crypto has some resurgence in price action, retained, regained some favor in the zeitgeist, and all of a sudden, the price action of crypto assets now has bigger, much bigger pipes to actually paint some big green candles when that inevitable like favor is regained by the crypto world in the future. That's kind of how I'm interpreting this.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say that. I mean, again, let's say, like, if you have a store and somebody builds a bridge from your island where your store's on to like the mainland, clearly the store is probably going to get more business, maybe not on day one or day two, but over a couple of years, there should be more traffic, more foot traffic in your store, right? Just simply because there's a bridge and now you can drive instead of taking a boat. I would just, it's the same thing. You know, the inverse relationship I use to this is iTunes. I don't know if I'm probably dating myself at this point, or I could date myself even more with my band name. Remember on iTunes, like the Beatles held out for a while? And they're, when they finally went on iTunes, all their albums went to number one.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  Right, because there is a lot of people there, namely younger people, who were like, oh, okay, I'll check the Beatles out now, simply because they're in the format I listen to.

• 34:47Ryan Sean Adams?

  Right.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Whereas they're not going to go buy a new Beatle CD or album.

• 34:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hmm.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  And it's almost the inverse, where there's a lot of older investors, advisors in particular, where, once you put it in the format they love and know, they're much more likely to take a nibble at it, or use it as an asset allocation. Like, I don't think advisors would use gold at all, if it weren't for GLD. They're not going to go buy gold bars and store them, just be like, I had to hell with it, we'll find something correlated. So, this is similar to that. There's a lot to be said for putting something where the people want it. And the bridge is the best thing I can think of, but, you know, I would look for

• 35:29Speaker 02

  three, four years, to get to this, you know, big boy asset place that gold is, where you've got tens of billions. GBTC has 20 billion, so I think a lot of that's up for grabs. That's 20. And then you have maybe some new assets, and I do think over time, boomer advisors are undergoing a real issue that concerns them, which is the generational transfer. So like, they have a lot of clients who are 75, 80, and remember, boomers have like, almost all the money in America. I think they have like, 80% of all the wealth.

• 36:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Hmm.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  But they're getting older, and they're going to pass it on to their Gen X, millennial, Gen Z kids. And the advisor is worried that the kids are going to take their money somewhere else. So the advisor may actually want to get ahead of this, by saying, hey, look, I'm cool, I'm going to give you a little crypto. You know, there may be that kind of a motive for the advisor, or when it does get passed on, the younger investor who's now using the same advisors, like, I want this. So I think that there's going to be some motive from the advisor, just to impress their younger, the kids of their clients. And the kids themselves could be like, I want this, sort of like, you know, grassroots style.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  But again, this is stuff that's going to take years and years to play out. But, as I said, I think there'd be $100 billion less invested in gold, if it wasn't for GLD.

• 36:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  How big is gold, Eric?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  GLD, you mean of the how much gold is above ground? Or how much is in GLD?

• 37:03Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, I think I know that like how much of gold is above ground? It's like eight trillion or something like this. Is this you approximately right? The total market cap of gold?

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Because I think gold ETFs make up about 1% of the gold above ground, which would put them 10 trillion, 8 trillion. But yeah, so 100 billion is in gold ETFs.

• 37:22Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay. And what's the what's? So, you know, on Bankless, a lot of people listening are kind of like their own independent researchers, financial advisors, like they, you know, they kind of do it themselves. What can you give us a scope of how much money are we talking about in financial advisor world? Are we talking about in the trillions? And is that the main liquidity source that we've tapped into? It's all of kind of the, you know, Chuck Schwab advisors and the independent financial advisors who have, you know, baby boomers with, you know, the retirement funds and that kind of thing. Is that what we have unlocked here? Or are we also unlocking like a big pool of institutional capital? Will like big pension funds be like, oh, you know what?

• 38:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  We want some exposure to Bitcoin, Ether. We'll allocate X percent and we'll just buy the ETF. Is that another source? Paying us the size here because I don't think we often look outside of our crypto bubble and see how much capital there is in these other areas.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  Sure. These are some rough numbers, but they're ballpark.

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Okay. So first of all, if you look at the who owns ETFs, advisors probably make up 70, 75% of the ETF investors.

• 38:35Ryan Sean Adams?

  Okay.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  Like they're the main player that uses ETFs. Institutions probably 10% and do it yourself retail 15%. Something like that. So I would say that's what you're opening up. So advisors have 30 trillion in assets and they love ETFs.

• 38:52Ryan Sean Adams?

  30 trillion in assets that they manage on behalf of primarily America, right? So this is US.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  That's in America.

• 39:00Ryan Sean Adams?

  Advisors.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  I'm telling you.

• 39:01Ryan Sean Adams?

  30 trillion?

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, because once you get money in this life, I'm not sure where you guys are at. But once you get like a bunch of stuff, you kind of.

• 39:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Less than last year.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably. You know, these rich boomers have like, they want to do estate planning. They hate taxes. How can I pay less taxes? They have all this stuff going on, right? So that and they have all the money. So the advisors are managing their money. So that that's massive, right? That's why, although the crypto trade publication, one of them sort of mutated my words and said $30 trillion is coming for Bitcoin. And I was like, no, no, no. Maybe 0.5% of the 30 trillion is coming, which is about 150 billion. That's still 150 billion. Yeah. So that is a lot. Now, if there's one spot Bitcoin ETF that gets liquid,

• 39:54Speaker 02

  that will attract institutions. Institutions can get a lot of this on their own. They'll call up like BlackRock and just be like, hey, just make me a Bitcoin account or whatever. But the one thing that institutions cannot get anywhere else is liquidity. And so institutions love really liquid ETFs like GLD, SPY, because they don't have to call anybody. They can get in and out without impacting the market. ETF trading is anonymous. Nobody knows they're there. And you don't have to call anybody. There's no contracts. It's just very easy, free. And in a crisis, they know that ETF will be liquid. They can get out. And so there will be institutions who will use the number one or number two, top two most liquid ones. And if

• 40:36Speaker 02

  you look at the holders of SPY and GLD, it's full of pensions, endowments, insurance companies, high level hedge funds. Bridgewater is the biggest hedge fund in the world. It famously uses EEM, SPY, even dabbles in stuff like some of the sectors. So that is the institutional element will be in the biggest traded one. And then the retail investors, I think what they're going to come into is they may like to trade this, but they like adrenaline. So when this 2X spot comes out, that's probably what they're going to hit up. Retail loves leveraged. They want to feel something and Bitcoin probably wanted to be volatile enough

• 41:19Speaker 02

  for them. So they're gonna wait till the 2X comes out and be like, okay, yeah, this is good. 10, 20% in a day. That's what I'm looking for.

• 41:28Ryan Sean Adams?

  I can't believe I didn't know that there are 2X crypto ETFs that are on the on the potential menu here.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, BitX, by the way, BitX has 50 million already, so.

• 41:39David Hoffman?

  Oh, wow.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  That's a good sign. No, 30 million, sorry, but it charges 1.8%, which is a lot. But if you look at the volatility on it, I mean, I'll just give you a few with the vol. So 77% volatility so far. For context, the S and P 500 is.

• 41:59David Hoffman?

  Less than that.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Probably 20, 12, 12. So S and P 500 is 12%. BitX is 77. That essentially means that there's a two-thirds chance that in one year, the S and P will be up or down 12%. Bit, what BitX is saying is there's a two-thirds chance it'll be up 77% or down 77%.

• 42:19David Hoffman?

  I could see that.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  And that, that, that kind of volatility is very attractive to the retail crowd, the, the sort of Robin Hood types. Which is why like the triple leverage Qs, TQQQ and SQQQ are frequently in the top five most traded ETFs every day. They trade as much as like Microsoft stock. So I think a spot, a double leveraged spot Bitcoin ETF probably will be the, will have this other appeal. So those are typically how those different player types invest. The advisor will go for the BlackRock and the cheap, right? Long-term. The institution will want the most liquid one regardless of fee. And the retail crowd will probably wait for the one that has the most jacked up vol.

• 42:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Really good insight. Wow.

• 43:00David Hoffman?

  Love it. Looking back at my previous self when I was buying equities, I can definitely resonate with the people playing with the two. I think I had like the 2X semiconductor ETF. Yeah, that one was a wild ride.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Right, like, like semis aren't enough. Like, that's pretty, that's like, semis alone are double, triple the vol of the S and P, but you need double. See, I call this the hot sauce bucket. Most people these days have a hot sauce bucket, even conservative people. They have like their retirement account, which is like, okay, just leave that over there. It's good, it compounds, but it's boring as hell. Now let me take 10, 15% and go absolutely wild. And that's where I think this crypto ETF would live for the retail crowd.

• 43:38David Hoffman?

  Oh my God, there's gotta be so much product market fit with the retail crowd.

• 43:42Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, that's so fun. Yeah, cause, cause, yeah, as crypto investors, Bitcoin and Ether are like our most boring assets.

• 43:49David Hoffman?

  Yeah, they're real boring.

• 43:50Ryan Sean Adams?

  And then we have a hot sauce bucket.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  That is hilarious. It's all relative, I guess. Yeah, it's fractals.

• 43:57David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Eric, this has all just been super informative. There are a few more things that we need to tie off this conversation about, just mainly the predictions, I would say, the predictions about Bitcoin ETF, the spot Bitcoin ETF. And like, what about the spot ETHE ETF? Can we start being, like, can we start anticipating that? So we're going to ask these questions and more in the second half of the show. But first, a moment to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible, especially MetaMask Portfolio. If you use MetaMask, I'm sure you do, you should probably open up MetaMask Portfolio. It's a cool new way to use MetaMask. There's a link in the show notes to get started. Let's go here for them. MetaMask Portfolio is your one stop shop to manage your crypto assets and to tap into DeFi, all in one place. And the most important part of that experience? Buying crypto, obviously. MetaMask Portfolio's buy feature enables you to purchase crypto easily,

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• 45:12David Hoffman?

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• 46:40David Hoffman?

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• 47:20Speaker 02

  Okay, so we're still, James and I are still holding the line at 75% odds of approval this year.

• 47:29David Hoffman?

  Of a spot Bitcoin ETF?

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Of a spot Bitcoin ETF. This year, 2024, calendar year.

• 47:34David Hoffman?

  No, 2023.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  2023, calendar year, sorry. 2023. And look, we've held this line when it was not cool. When the SEC delayed, about six of them, we got dunked on, even by crypto people. They're like, "Look at these guys."

• 47:49David Hoffman?

  Right. We like to do that in the crypto world.

• 47:52Speaker 02

  I know. By the way, the whole Ether, it's funny because when the Ether Futures launched, there's a couple times that in my replies, there'd be a fight between a Bitcoin maxi and an Ether person.

• 48:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I know.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Sorry for that to you.

• 48:06David Hoffman?

  Yeah, sorry.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  The maxi was like, "Why should these even exist? The government's gonna ban it." And I was like, "Really?" And then the other guy was like, "No, this guy is out of his mind."

• 48:16David Hoffman?

  Yes.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  And so they just went back and forth for like two days.

• 48:18David Hoffman?

  There's some verifiable insane people on crypto Twitter.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, it's fun though. It's fun. The memes, the argument, there's a lot of spirit, and I like that. So it's okay. But yeah, there was a lot of, there's a couple Ether haters who, when these came out and they didn't have the volume, they thought there was a lot of dunking on that too. But anyway.

• 48:36David Hoffman?

  It's the arena, is what we call it.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  So the odds are still 75% and I not only did we hear the SEC is for multiple sources that the SEC is working with the issuers, which again is a break to the pattern. It shows they're willing. Gensler also had two moments where we thought they showed signs of weakness where he said, we had our anchor from Bloomberg TV ask him about this and he said, well, the spot ETFs, look, they're in registry, I can't comment, but look, I'm only one of five commissioners, little old me. So he's starting to hedge a little.

• 49:10Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah, little me.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  And then little old me, you know, if they approve them, hey, it's not on me. And then the other one was, he said something like, oh, when he was asked in Congress about this, he said, well, look, there are active filings, I look forward to seeing what the staff comes back with. Well, that's the same exact phrasing he used with Bido. I look forward to seeing what the staff comes back with. So you could see he's almost trying to like diffuse that it's all on him, which I think is a good sign. Them reaching out is a good sign. And we've had two other things that I thought were interesting. Vanek, Jan Vanek, who was, when I've met with him, he's like, you guys are, you guys are crazy, it's not happening, it could be years. He's now was on CNBC saying it's going to happen pretty soon.

• 49:55Ryan Sean Adams?

  Wow.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  And Matt Hogan, who was firmly in the 2024 camp, was on CNBC a couple of days ago and said this calendar year. So I've seen two people shift forward. Kathy Wood just said yesterday in a quote, odds are rising. And she was firmly in the 2024 camp. So it makes sense. All those people are issuers who got the email from the SEC and the comments they're asking for are doable, they're fixable, they're not like anything crazy I've asked. So I think this is all very good. That's why we're going to hold this year. That said, there's something in the back of my mind that thinks because of the holidays, it could roll into like mid-January.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  I almost still think we deserve credit, given how much we went on a limb and how much we hung there, because we're, you know, we're within a couple of weeks. I'll still give us credit if it's by January 31st. But as we roll into the next year, our odds just go up and up. So that's sort of where we're at. Ether, in my opinion, I would expect that to be a month or two after. Bitcoin, based on logic and feel for how the SEC operates.

• 51:05Ryan Sean Adams?

  A month or two after Bitcoin? You think we could have an Ether spot ETF?

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Well, remember, they're already filed and there's been no withdrawals.

• 51:13Ryan Sean Adams?

  The difference, though, here is, Eric, is Gensler himself has very much not, very much prevented himself, and he's been given ample opportunity to say that Ether is not a security, and he has not taken that opportunity ever. He's deferred. And he's conceded that Bitcoin is not a security, but he won't get there with Ether, which feels, at least to crypto people kind of watching this, that he's got something in for Ether, his reluctance to say that, and that might put a wrench in the works here.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Well, fine. Again, remember, this whole thing of like whether it's security is, I can't say I'm in the weeds as much on that in terms of, I've heard that Congress ask him the Pokemon card question and stuff, and I can see that there's a lot of people who are debating this. But you have to understand that the grayscale ruling said that your main premise on declining Bitcoin bot was that it was manipulation or fraud. And so they threw that out. That was their main reason for Ether future. Like, it wasn't like their problem with it was security or not. It was that.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  So that's gone. So if they approve spot, to me, it's sort of saying that, okay, well, the court said we had to use a different reason, and there are none. Yeah, maybe it's possible that he says, look, we're about to go crazy on Ether, and we just don't feel comfortable approving an Ether spot. I guess it's possible. I'd probably want to talk to James a little more about it. He's a little more in the weeds on this. But based on the fact that you now have Ether futures, it would be a bit silly to not approve spot after you've approved Ether futures and Bitcoin spot, to me. It would be like odd, because there's a pattern to this and a cadence, and that would just break from that. I just, I don't see it, but it's possible, I guess.

• 53:19Ryan Sean Adams?

  I think what I'm just hearing is that you just think it's going to be a fast follow. Like, once the floodgates open of approvals, then approvals will be approved.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, because think about it. Now, at this case, they've already been sued and lost. Let's say they decline the ether. Someone could sue them and say, well, you accrue a spot on the same premise. What's your, what ground are you standing on here? So there is an emboldness with the issuers lately. After VolShares running the stop sign and getting the BitX and the Ether futures out. And also the Grayscale loss, there's a lot of like, the issuers are getting more emboldened. I don't think any of them are afraid to sue anymore.

• 53:57David Hoffman?

  And so this is how we feel on the crypto side of things. We feel like we are racking up wins, not just against Gary Gensler and the SEC, but generally in the court. And if we accept that that vibe is collectively happening across many different respects, that would be in line with that.

• 54:12Ryan Sean Adams?

  We've also run a few stop signs, I think, here, here or there. So that's

• 54:16David Hoffman?

  To our benefit, without getting the ticket.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  It's better to ask for forgiveness than permission sometimes.

• 54:23Ryan Sean Adams?

  That's crypto's motto, I think.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  I tell my team that all the time. I'm like, could we write research notes? I'm like, if you're not getting like, if you're not getting called out or an email from the editors every six months, you're not doing it right.

• 54:34Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yeah.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  You need to take chances and push the envelope. And that's sort of what VolShares did. And I, in a way, I respect it because the SEC has made this so difficult and everybody. But other issuers just didn't have the stomach to fight or to do that because they had all these other product lines. And so you don't want to mess with the SEC, but when you have very little going on, VolShares only had a couple of like really exotic VIX type stuff. They're like, eh, you know, what do I have to lose? So sometimes it takes a, someone with nothing to lose to, to like, you know,

• 55:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Shake things off.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Be the one who, yeah, to sort of pioneer something.

• 55:11Ryan Sean Adams?

  Absolutely.

• 55:11Speaker 02

  In this case, it was messing with the SEC and they won. And Gratio, obviously, they, in this case, they had the money and they won. And so, yeah, it's been a, it's been a year where, it shouldn't have come to this.

• 55:24Ryan Sean Adams?

  No.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  I really, I really think all this could have been hammered out a couple of years ago. And none of this would have had to happen, but, you know.

• 55:31Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well, we certainly agree, and this has been fantastic coverage. And you and James do fantastic work on this. Eric, can you give a shout out for your Twitter handle, which is where people can go get the latest? If, if, if I listen to anyone about what's happening with crypto ETFs, I connect with you, Eric, and I connect with James. So what's your Twitter handle so people can follow?

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Sure, it's @ericbalchunas. So if you're watching, that's my name right there.

• 55:58Ryan Sean Adams?

  Yes.

• 55:58Speaker 02

  That's it. Believe it or not, it was available in 2010. There were no other @ericbalchunas.

• 56:04Ryan Sean Adams?

  Well done.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 56:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  No, no, I've been on.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  That's a good thing about having my name. My email, by the way, my email is also @ericbalchunas, both Bloomberg and Gmail. So I've never had to use a 1, a 2, or anything like real or anything.

• 56:20Ryan Sean Adams?

  Oh, wow.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  Very easy to find. One warning, though. I sometimes tweet about like, I'm an ETF analyst, so there's a JP Morgan Equity ETF, and sometimes people are like, "Dude, I don't give a shit. I don't care about this. What's going on with Bitcoin?" So I've noticed there's a crypto follower that isn't in love with the other ETF tweets, but you'll have to just wade through those to get to them.

• 56:41Ryan Sean Adams?

  You know why? You keep going down the stack here, and I'm looking forward to that Pokémon card ETF that you guys can roll out. If you don't put it in ETF, crypto will just tokenize it, okay? We'll front-run you guys. So you better put it in an ETF.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  I used to say that ETFs are so good, you could put like baseball cards in there and people get a good deal. I get with Pokémon cards. But yeah, I don't think we'll see that, but who knows?

• 57:07Ryan Sean Adams?

  Who knows? Who knows, indeed. Well, Eric, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for having us on and talking about the Ethereum ETF Derby. It's been a great week for that. Thank you.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me on. Great talking to you, and see you later.

• 57:21Ryan Sean Adams?

  Rista disclaimers, Bankless Nation, of course, none of this has been financial advice. Doesn't matter what generation you're in, millennial, Gen Z, boomer, Gen X, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.