$BLUR AIRDROP with Blur's Founder, Pacman

In today's episode, David sits down with Pacman, the Founder of the NFT trading marketplace, Blur. Blur recently launched their $BLUR token and Pacman joins us to share the entire airdrop story, the different phases that went into it, and what's next for the fascinating OpenSea competitor. ------ MetaMask Learn https://bankless.cc/metamaskshow ------ JOIN BANKLESS PREMIUM: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/subscribe ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://bankless.cc/kraken UNISWAP | ON-CHAIN MARKETPLACE https://bankless.cc/uniswap ️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum EARNIFI | CLAIM YOUR UNCLAIMED AIRDROPS https://bankless.cc/earnifi ------ Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 3:27 Who is Pacman? 5:55 Why Blur? 7:15 Traders vs. Collectors 10:28 What Blur Built 15:00 $BLUR Token Story 26:50 Airdrop Phases 31:50 $BLUR Airdrop Details 35:10 Pacman's Reaction to the Drop 40:47 OpenSea vs. Blur 43:38 $BLUR Utility 45:13 Season Two 49:20 NFT Royalty Wars 55:30 Closing & Disclaimers ------ Resources: Blur https://blur.io/ Pacman https://twitter.com/PacmanBlur ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:22David Hoffman?

  Bankless Nation, welcome to this very special edition of Bankless. We got to talk about the airdrop that just happened because it has burned an all-time high 24-hour of ETH burn inside of 24 hours, which always gets me excited. But of course, we're talking about the Blur NFT trading platform, which just released its token into the wild and has gained a ton of excitement. Just some quick stats to throw at you all. $1 billion in volumes traded through Blur, over 1 billion trades, almost 100,000 active users so far, and ever since the late stages of 2022 has been gaining in market share over OpenSea. And so, we're bringing on the Blur founder, Pacman. I don't know if he calls himself a founder, I'll ask him that when we get on to the show,

• 1:06David Hoffman?

  to talk about the ethos of Blur. How does Blur position itself in the world of NFTs? Who is Blur optimizing for? Is it optimizing for traders? Is it optimizing for collectors? How is Blur going to develop? And how did this massive airdrop that just came into the world today? How is it organized? What does the token do? And all of the other royalty wars that are also part of the conversation going around in the NFT world. So, all of these conversations and more. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Kraken has been a leader in the crypto industry for the last 12 years. Dedicated to accelerating the global adoption of crypto, Kraken puts an emphasis on security,

• 1:47David Hoffman?

  transparency, and client support, which is why over 9 million clients have come to love Kraken's products. Whether you're a beginner or a pro, the Kraken UX is simple, intuitive, and frictionless, making the Kraken app a great place for all to get involved and learn about crypto. For those with experience, the redesigned Kraken Pro app and web experience is completely customizable to your trading needs, integrating key trading features. To one seamless interface. Kraken has a 24/7 365 client support team that is globally recognized. Kraken support is available wherever, whenever you need them, by phone, chat, or email. And for all of you NFTers out there, the brand new Kraken NFT beta platform gives you the best NFT trading experience possible. Rarity rankings, no gas fees, and the ability to buy an NFT straight with cash.

• 2:32David Hoffman?

  Does your crypto exchange prioritize its customers the way that Kraken does? And if not, sign up with Kraken at kraken.com/bankless. How many total airdrops have you gotten? This last bull market had a ton of them. Did you get them all? Maybe you missed one. So here's what you should do. Go to Earnify and plug in your Ethereum wallet and Earnify will tell you if you have any unclaimed airdrops that you can get. And it also does PoApps and mintable NFTs. Any kind of money that your wallet can claim, Earnify will tell you about it. And you should probably do it now because some airdrops expire. And if you sign up for Earnify, they'll email you anytime one of your wallets has a new airdrop for it to make sure that you never lose an airdrop ever again. You can also upgrade to Earnify Premium to unlock access to airdrops that are beyond the basics and are able to set reminders for more wallets.

• 3:15David Hoffman?

  And for just under $21 a month, it probably pays for itself with just one airdrop. So plug in your wallets at Earnify and see what you get. That's E A R N I dot F I. And make sure you never lose another airdrop. Bankless Nation, I am here with Pac-Man. And as you can see, if you are watching the YouTube, this is a visual representation of what Pac-Man may or may not look like. Pac-Man, welcome to the show.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  GM GM, thanks so much for having me.

• 3:44David Hoffman?

  So Pac-Man, we're going to talk all, of course, about Blur, the NFT trading marketplace, the airdrop, and also the royalties wars. But as Bankless listeners will probably know, I don't pay attention to the NFT world nearly as much as I do the DeFi or the protocol or Layer 2 spaces. So I kind of want to start this conversation at the very beginnings. Who are you? And how did you come to work and found Blur? And where did that idea come from in the first place?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Would it be helpful to just get kind of some background on myself?

• 4:16David Hoffman?

  Sure.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Just to start off?

• 4:17David Hoffman?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so for me, I got my start in engineering around eight years ago in Silicon Valley. So I started off as an engineer and then quickly moved on to starting my first business back in 2016. I went through Y Combinator, which, you know, for those of you in the web two world will know, maybe in web three you're less familiar. But, you know, I see they are a big accelerator. They funded Dropbox, Stripe, Airbnb, Reddit. I went through their program afterwards, really wanted to go to school, ended up going to MIT, studied math there with computer science. And I met Gallagher, my co-founder, and we basically just hit it off and started working together ever since. You know, initially started working on side projects. We eventually left MIT to start our first business together back in 2018.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  We ran that business for three years and we sold it at the end of 2021. And we started working on Blur immediately afterwards. And the reason why is because in 2021, I had personally gotten really into NFTs. I'm into Blood Map as my first NFT, held it to its A, sold it, and then I was just completely hooked. I really fell in love with the trading side of NFTs, but I was just very frustrated with the infrastructure. All the existing marketplaces were very retail oriented and rather slow and clunky. I wanted something that was more of a professional trading platform for NFTs. So that's exactly what we set out to build at Blur.

• 5:39David Hoffman?

  And so you identified as an NFT trader very early on. It's like, that's kind of the, the thing that really gravitated, you gravitated towards. But then out of your frustration of the lack of infrastructure for NFT traders, that was the main inspiration for creating Blur?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly.

• 5:57David Hoffman?

  And what, what would you say what was deficient in the world of NFT trading that frustrated you before Blur was created?

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, David, I think as someone who's maybe more familiar with the token world, I think the right analogy is if you look at the progression of the token trading market, right, we started with infrastructure like Mt. Gox or Coinbase is a very primitive, you know, retail friendly ways to, you know, at least Coinbase retail friendly way to buy and sell crypto. And then over time, you saw as the needs of the space developed, the infrastructure became increasingly advanced and financialized. We went from, you know, infrastructure like Coinbase, which is very optimized for retail to more crypto native exchanges. You had, you know, Binance, OKX will be Bitmex, there a bit, more financialized exchanges, you know, FTX, of course, before they rugged everyone.

• 6:48David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  So that development of infrastructure is the same progression that we're seeing in the NFT space today.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  When you look at the NFT market, it's really only had its moment in the last two years. So the infrastructure really has not had too much time to develop, but the needs of the space have been growing. And so that need for professionalization and the professionalized infrastructure is exactly the need that we're serving.

• 7:14David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so let's dive into that niche that Blur has really optimized for. So optimized for NFT traders as opposed to collectors? Can you just help me understand the area of the NFT world that Blur has really carved out?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Totally. So, you know, I think when you're like a newcomer to NFTs, the existing marketplaces that, you know, were all here prior to Blur, they really served that use case while, you know, they treated NFTs as a more traditional shopping experience, right? Like what you would see on Amazon or eBay or Craigslist. And it worked really well for the dabblers. But if you're a very active collector or if you're a trader, you really want to buy in size. You want to be able to monitor the market in real time. A lot of these collections, they can, you know, the floor can shift very quickly on you, right? It can go down or up. And especially for the hot collections, there can be oftentimes so many orders happening at once that,

• 8:14Speaker 01

  you know, prior to Blur, all of these platforms would just crash when the market got really hot. And wouldn't even be able to support even basic levels of trading. And that was because these marketplaces really treated NFTs as a shopping experience, which again, works for the, you know, retail user or the beginner. But for someone who's very active in the space and is trying to take a position and move quickly in the market, they want something that's more akin to, you know, whenever you use an advanced token trading exchange, you have a real time order book, you have a live orders feed, right? As trades are happening, you're seeing that all update live. The depth charts updating live, you're able to chart things, you know, very quickly. See a lot of data all at once, all updating in real time. And really before Blur, that kind of experience in the marketplace just did not exist.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  So that's really the, the key focus of Blur from day one. You'll notice even from, you know, our early tweet announcements or blog posts, we've always made it very clear that we're focused on building the best NFT marketplace for pro traders.

• 9:13David Hoffman?

  Right, okay, so you are optimizing for people who are really leaning into the financial aspects of these NFTs, where these NFTs are tokens, hence they are, yeah, have some sort of financial aspect to them, where other people might just be perusing through open seas, like, oh, I guess I like that one. I guess I'll add it to my cart. This is not what Blur is optimized for. Blur has optimized for the power user of the NFT industry. Is that a fair description?

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. I would say, you know, in a similar way to when you look at why someone would buy Bitcoin or ETH or any other token, there might be some utility to it. There might be, you know, maybe it's ultrasound money, maybe it's something else. But ultimately, the exchanges that these tokens trade on, they're really focused on serving the core financial need of trading the token around, you know, the speculation. And that's not in like a negative, right, right? In any, in any market, there's hedgers and speculators and the exchanges serve matching the needs of the hedgers and the speculators. And ultimately, when, when we think about, why do we? Bring to the table for Blur as a protocol and marketplace. It's really about making that market more liquid, more efficient, enabling it to grow.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  Just like the advanced exchange infrastructure and tokens really allowed the space to grow as well.

• 10:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so I was looking at some Dune analytics boards before we hopped into this live stream here. And I'll repeat the numbers that I said at the beginning. A billion dollars in total volume, over a billion trades and almost 100,000 active users. What has Blur built that attracted all of that volume, attracted all of that trading activity? So if we're talking about building an NFT marketplace that's really optimized for the power user, let's talk about the details of what that means. What has Blur built that has allowed for all of these power users to really be power users?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And you know, David, I'm really glad that you did your research. It was a billion. It was actually over a billion, 1.2 billion. There's a really great analytics chart from a Hill Dobby, who I can share that afterwards. He does some really great analysis. But I think the right way of thinking about it is just to imagine the token trading market. If any of the more crypto native exchanges beyond Coinbase didn't exist, right? Like if Binance didn't exist, Bitmex, Darebit, you know, any of these exchanges, just imagine just buying on, you know, buying and selling Bitcoin on Coinbase consumer. That's basically what the state of the market was about, you know, 394 days ago,

• 11:47Speaker 01

  when we started working on Blur. And that infrastructure was what was serving the NFT market as it was doing, you know, $4 billion worth of trading volume every month at its peak. So there was just a massive, massive need for even just, you know, basic, more professionalized infrastructure. One of the

• 12:11Speaker 01

  Products that we released, this was a combination of UI plus the protocol integration. But one of the products that we released was Blur bidding, which allowed traders to actually start bidding with ETH. And we actually visualized the order book of bids directly in the marketplace. And this is, you know, fairly basic in the token trading world, but this was massively, you know, meta-changing in the NFT world. Because now when traders were going into a collection, they could see, oh, this collection has, you know, 5,000, 8,000 ETH of bids on the order book, supporting the floor price. You know, this is a collection that I can buy into and I have fairly good confidence that it's just not going to shop on me.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Whereas a collection without any sort of depth on the buy side, you know, is probably going to have a much harder time maintaining its priceability. So this is something that's, you know, fairly basic and from the token trading world, you'd be like, of course, you need an order book. Like that's fundamental to how an exchange works, but that's really just not something that existed in the NFT world before Blur released it.

• 13:11David Hoffman?

  Okay, and so, okay, so it was really just perhaps just UI and UI upgrades, which allows for just more visualization of the state of the market. Perhaps some on-chain optimizations of how trades get executed perhaps. But it really kind of just sounds like enabling users to have more data and tools at their disposal to engage in the financial aspect of NFTs.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say, I would say it's a combination of both. When you look at what we did on the protocol level, so prior to Blur bids, basically whenever you wanted to bid on an NFT, you had to convert your ETH into WETH.

• 13:56David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And it's a very confusing experience, you know, even for myself as someone who's an advanced user. It was just always so confusing and clunky. And of course, especially for a newcomer, it's just really, really confusing and really easy to shoot yourself in the foot with it. And what we did was we simplified that at the protocol level by enabling users to bid by depositing ETH into their own pool. And they didn't have to think of it as a separate construct because they could not only bid with that, but they could also buy NFTs with that. It's a fairly simple concept, but that simple concept, really they're just satisfied a massive gaping hole in the market. I would say it's similar to, you know, when you look at What protocols have really enabled growth in the DeFi world?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  When you look at something like Uniswap, it's like not necessarily the most complicated idea. And the product itself might be quite simple, but it can serve a need that wasn't really being met before. And similarly, when we think about Blur, at its core, it's a very simple product and protocol. But it's just really meant a need that wasn't being filled at all before.

• 15:02David Hoffman?

  Certainly, and I did hear you say that you started working on Blur 394 days ago. Ninety-four, was that right?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, ninety-four.

• 15:12David Hoffman?

  Okay, so a little bit over a year, a year and a month. And so a year and a month later, since the inception of beginning to work on Blur, you guys released the token, the token airdrop. And of course, this is why we're doing the show today of all days is because tokens are exciting. People love to talk about tokens. And so can you talk about just the story of the token? As I understand, this was a multi-phase iteration of getting a token out into the wild. Can you, can you walk us through that story of how the token was incepted and born and now released to the public?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So the token was planned, you know, really everything that we feel Epler was planned from day one. You know, it would really just be like, if you imagined the market as it is today in tokens, and then just, just take out every other exchange besides Coinbase. You'd be like, oh my God, there's a huge opportunity to just build like Binance or any other crypto native exchange. And you know, it's just going to work. You just need to build it. That was basically the position that we found ourselves in 394 days ago. When we're looking at the market, you know, both for ourselves as traders in the market and then as builders, it was very clear that none of the marketplaces were really thinking about the space in this way.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  And when we think about the power of Web3, something that we really take a lot of inspiration from is really when you look at DeFi. You know, it's really just not possible in Web two to actually give the end users' control over the platforms. Right. There's always this delineation between the platform and the user, and there's actually usually very combative. Whereas in Web three, you're actually able to give the end users' control over the protocol, and they can actually control the value accrual and distribution. And you can align incentives in a way that's just frankly not possible in Web two. So when we thought about what made sense for this space, it was really interesting because NFTs are, you know, a completely new asset class. They enable decentralized ownership of digital collectibles.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And they were all being traded on what was effectively a Web two marketplace. And that just didn't make any sense to us. You know, when we thought about this market, it was clear, okay, there's a gaping hole in terms of serving the pro users. And then also there's a gaping hole in terms of aligning the business model of the infrastructure with the users of that infrastructure. And it was just very shocking to us because it just felt like at multiple levels, the space wasn't really operating in an efficient way, even though NFTs are so adjacent to DeFi and tokens. And it's just like so clear. It's just like you take a step across the line and it's just like, wow, this is, this is just like a very similar to space that's just not even paying any attention to what's happening, you know, in DeFi or tokens.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And that's really the position that we found ourselves in when we started working on Blur.

• 18:04David Hoffman?

  And so the idea was always, hey, we're going to make an NFT marketplace and it's going to have a token because OpenSea is constrained by nation state regulation and the chasm of being Web 2.5. And so the idea was to make an NFT marketplace to be a better trading experience, but then also have a token from day one. So the token was in the plan from day one, right?

• 18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And it's very much similar to, you know, ultimately it's.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  If you look at every protocol today, right, it's a lot of the difference is whether you set out to build it in a decentralized way or not from day one. Like Uniswap could be a centralized Cosoda product, you know, they could KYC every user, they could have restrictions. And, you know, it was built in such a way that enabled decentralization, but you could imagine it as a web two product if you wanted to. It'd be very easy to, but they built it in a way that actually enabled the decentralization. Similarly, when we looked at the marketplaces, it was very clear that all the marketplaces were built. You know, at least at the time, there's been some, you know, some more experimentation and innovation since, which has been great to see. But ultimately, the majority of the market share was on marketplaces that were built in a very web two fashion.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  It's very clear that, you know, decentralization wasn't something that they really, you know, focus on from day one. Whereas when we look at the space, it was just like, you know, how, it was just kind of so obvious. It was like, how can we not build it in such a way to actually enable the end users? Like when I think about a protocol that is managed by a single entity that's running in a very web two way versus a protocol that has the end users controlling it. And that those end users are the ones that make up the network effect of the protocol. And ultimately, network effects are everything. When we think about that comparison, it's very clear to us that a protocol that has the end users having control is the one that's going to win.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  So that's really the impetus for why it made sense to for us to build it in such a way that we could do this.

• 20:02David Hoffman?

  Right, and that's of course the, just what the web three philosophy really is. And it's one thing to be able to create a token and say, hey, we can get this into the hands of the community. But then actually getting the token into the hands of the community is a different story. Can you talk about the strategy for how you, how Blur released the token in ways that found, so that the token would find its way into the hands of the aligned community members?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. The number one cardinal rule that we had when thinking through the airdrop was to only ever incentivize liquidity, never volume.

• 20:38David Hoffman?

  Hmm.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  The issue with volume, and I think we've seen this play out many times in the DeFi world, but the issue with volume is that you immediately just get wash traders or arbitragers and they'll, they'll just, it's just a simple mathematical equation, right? They'll do the calculation and they'll figure out, okay, if I, you know, fake trades this many trades, I'll make this much profit and I can just keep on doing it until, you know, it's no longer E V positive. And that's exactly what has happened with some of the other marketplaces that try to incentivize in volume. If you look at what really works well in DeFi, right, like a curve, they don't incentivize volume. They just incentivize liquidity, right, on either side of a peg. And that liquidity actually helps maintain the peg.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  And when people want to trade, the incentive to trade is because you have good liquidity. So ultimately, when we thought about how do we construct this airdrop to get the hand, the token into the right hands? It was very clear to us that incentivizing liquidity and not volume was the right solution because that actually can bring real users into the space. And those real users, if you take away the incentives, can actually stay around and maintain the network effect. And we actually experimented with this by, we sequenced the airdrop rewards. So the first airdrop period was for listing on Blur, so providing ask side liquidity.

• 21:57David Hoffman?

  First, before we talk about that, airdrop periods, can you define that real quick?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, totally. So this is something somewhat untraditional that I think we did was we basically made the airdrop very, very explicit. And instead of

• 22:17Speaker 01

  just releasing the protocol and then not saying anything and then dropping a token, you know, months later, um, we made it very clear in order to get the airdrop, you needed to provide liquidity to Blur, first on the ask side and then on the bid side. Um, and we did that because when we think about

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Power of tokens as a motivator of behavior. It seems like a somewhat of a waste to do a completely retroactive airdrop. Because when it's retroactive, if it's purely retroactive and everyone was already using the protocol, then you're really just burning a lot of dry powder that the protocol could be using to actually grow itself. Right? When you think about, if you were to think about any sort of, you know, CEO operating. If the CEO were to just go and spend, you know, $10 million on an ad campaign that that didn't do anything for the business, you'd be like, okay, you're a terrible capital allocator. And that's just a waste of money. You know, maybe there's some brand building that, you know, you can definitely.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  You can definitely say that it does some brand building. It's it's not completely zero. But ultimately, you know, if a protocol could utilize $10 million to actually further the growth of the protocol, so that actually it'd actually grow even bigger. And maybe next time around, not give out $10 million, but maybe give out $20 million. Or if you do it effectively, maybe instead of $20 million, you can give out $50 million. You know, I think if a protocol utilizes its funds and treasury effectively, then it can actually be growing in a way that's very conducive um to the end goals of the protocol. And so when we thought about the airdrop, it didn't really make sense for us. You know, when we, when we were thinking about putting in blur, it didn't make sense for us to do it retroactively. Once the network effect was built, we thought, you know, why not reward the users that are actually building up the network effect? You know, from day zero.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  And that's really why we made this airdrop, a multi-round airdrop heading into the token launch.

• 24:14David Hoffman?

  Right, multi-round airdrop and importantly, making the criteria for receiving the airdrop explicit, which is something that um other airdrops would not do at all, because that they would be worried about airdrop farmers and airdrop gamers just just uh spamming the the system. But it sounds like the criteria for actually receiving the airdrop, uh I'm I'm assuming uh has been determined to be things that are ungamable. Is my intuition correct here?

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And that's not to say that this is an easy problem at all, even if, you know, especially, I think we all just know whenever you make an incentive system explicit, it's just inviting people to come in and game it. You know, many of our, um, you know, early investors actually, you know, made their wealth just figuring out these early DeFi summer incentive systems and, you know, utilizing them in ways that, you know, maybe the protocol creators didn't even think about. Um, but ultimately it was what was enabled through the incentive design. So it's something that's very tricky, but ultimately if you are incentivizing liquidity,

• 25:21Speaker 01

  it, and in your incentivizing real liquidity, that's something that's quite difficult to game because whether I'm farming or a real bidder, for example, you know, liquidity is liquidity. Someone can go and take my bid and, and now I, and now I have, you know, the other side of that trade. And I just took risk by putting that bid onto the order book. You know, that's, that's real risk. You can't really gamify that. Maybe you can hack it. Maybe there's a way for you to, you know, remove your bid right before it gets, you know, maybe you can like front run the trade or something like that. It's like there's, there's things you have to watch out for like that. But outside of just like especially hacking the system in that way. If you think about what incentivizing liquidity does, it actually brings real value to the network.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  And so that's what we really focused on was, you know, can we come up with a formula that enables the users to actually provide liquidity in a way that's, you know, difficult to gain, difficult to hack. And if we can do that, then actually making the system explicit works really, really well. It doesn't work for, for all types of protocols and all types of airdrops. Like I don't think this is a one size fits all solution. But for Blur, where it was very important to build a network effect to and build liquidity onto a marketplace that was, you know, going up against incumbents that were already worth, you know, tens of billions of dollars, it was very clear to us that, you know, we had to really focus the efforts on things that would grow the protocol.

• 26:48David Hoffman?

  Okay. So let's walk through the three phases of the airdrop criteria. Is that right? And, and so can you walk us through the each phase and the goals of each one?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So there are three phases. The first was, uh, it was a retroactive, uh, trading airdrop. Um, basically based on your, you know, volume for the last like six months prior to, uh, October 19th. Um, the second one was a listing airdrop. So by listing on Blur and providing liquidity onto Blur's order book, you received, uh, rewards for that. And then finally, the third airdrop was the bidding airdrop. So we shifted the rewards entirely from listing over to bidding.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  And interestingly, once we stopped the listing rewards, we saw the ask volume. So this is volume from people buying listings on Blur. We actually saw it grow after we stopped those listing incentives. So that indicated to us that, you know, basically the plan worked. It actually did bring real users into the protocol and they stuck around. And then, you know, we focus on purely incentivizing the bid side liquidity. Um, and then, you know, basically that just fills up the order book, right? You have the ask side, you have the list, you have the bid side. Now you have both sides. Um, not necessarily the most complicated concept, but you know, that was the strategy that we took to, you know, basically build up a network effect for the marketplace.

• 28:19David Hoffman?

  Did you accidentally move the prices of any NFTs in the process? Was there, what was like the collateral effects of this?

• 28:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's really interesting because, um, there is this one tweet thread when we shifted the, uh, well, one is when we, when we first did the listing incentive, people were saying, um, Blur was hurting floor prices. And then, uh, when we switch over to the bidding incentives, you would think, okay, if you switch over the incentives to the other side, then clearly people will intuit that this is going to support the floor prices. Um, and, and it did have an effect on the floor prices, but there is this, um, there's a thread that went really viral where, um, this person was basically tweeting that, uh, Blur's incentives were hurting your floor prices and there is nothing you could do, uh, to stop it. And it was actually a very catchy thread. Um, they wrote it in like a very like,

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Just like viral, like memetic way. Um, and then everyone was coming out and being like, oh, like is blur bidding like hurting floor prices? And it was just like, it was the most shocking thing because if you just study any sort of financial market, it's like a bid wall is only going to support the price of an asset. It's just, um, it was just such a shocking concept and, and to see it actually gain traction in the market. Uh, was, was a very interesting learning experience. Um, and then, uh, actually now a month, you know, two months later, um, as we were heading into the token launch, a lot of people were speculating that the incentives was up. And then the same person that, um, started the viral thread that blur was hurting for prices was now tweeting

• 29:54Speaker 01

  that, you know, blur's lack of incentives, you know, blur's incentives ending was going to crash for prices yet again. So it was, it was really such an incredible shocking, uh, sequence of events where it's like, you know, listing incentives hurt floors, bidding incentives hurt floors, the lack of bidding incentives hurt floors. It was like, wow, it's like you, you incentivize anything. It doesn't matter which way you do it, you're just gonna destroy the floors apparently.

• 30:18David Hoffman?

  Well, this, this sounds like a very like typical crypto Twitter. If it bleeds, it leads, uh, in, in, uh, rage marketing tactics, if you ask me.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's a really good way to frame it. I, I hadn't heard of that term before, but I do think it's, it's, um, it does strike me as, as rage marketing. But, um, you know, with that said, I do think that,

• 30:40Speaker 01

  you know, ultimately liquidity,

• 30:45Speaker 01

  liquidity doesn't really change the price of an asset so much as it really enables the asset to find its true market price. And if the liquidity changes the price, then I think that what that really means is that the price that people perceived before was, was not really an accurate price, right? Because the, the, the floor price or, you know, the, the bid ask. Middle point, right, the spread there and whatever, whatever the mark price is like, that's not really the true price. Like when we think about the price of an asset, a static number doesn't really accurately capture what's going on.

• 31:23David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  And people just anchor around specific numbers.

• 31:26David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  And so I think that when you have these liquidity incentives, it just, it gives you a different picture of the true price of the asset. But ultimately, it's still just, you know, you're kind of just like looking at like the leg of the elephant versus like the trunk of the elephant.

• 31:41David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Um, and that's, I think, what really all that did.

• 31:44David Hoffman?

  Sure. Yeah, the, the momentary price of something is just a snapshot of the overall picture. Uh, and I, I, I would like to also get the, the snapshot of the current state of the token. So, uh, how many people got the airdrop? Uh, what is the supply of the token out of, what's the outstanding supply of the token versus the, the total, the rest of the supply? Like, can you just walk me, walk me through some of the, uh, the metrics around the token?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So the total supply of the token is three billion, three billion blur. The airdrop was 12% of the supply, so 360 million blur. Um, I need to check the metrics, but I believe like a very large portion of the airdrop has already been claimed. Like, I think it's like 200 million of the 360 million, or maybe like 240 million at this point. I honestly don't know. Um, but a large portion of the airdrop has already, uh, been claimed and, and can be claimed over the next 60 days. Um, ultimately, the blur token, the tokenomics, I follow a very similar structure to Uniswap, actually.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  When we thought about what made sense here, you know, if you think about blur as a protocol, you know, Uniswap is an exchange for tokens and blur as a protocol is an exchange for NFTs. And so if you zoom out and squint, those are basically the same thing. And when we thought about what made sense here, I think especially in a bear market where there's more, what we've seen is that there's more of a return to fundamentals and a return to value. And we wanted a simple tokenomic design that had a very clear story for value. So having a tokenomic design, someone's uni made a lot of sense to us because it's just so simple and easy to understand.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  You know, Curve is really a phenomenal protocol. We really like GMX as well. Like, these are really interesting protocols that have really, you know, complicated tokenomic designs that very few people understand. And I think that those sorts of protocols are incredibly powerful in a bull market, when the market is more willing to experiment with creative schemes. But in a bear market, we think that there is a more, basically a return to value. And what we wanted to do was basically maintain flexibility at the protocol level. So that the community wanted to, they could vote and utilize treasury tokens for future tokenomics, you know, come bull market. But in a bear market, still have a very clear picture for why this protocol makes sense.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  You know, why holding the token gives you as a holder, you know, power over the protocol. That was really how we thought about modeling it.

• 34:22David Hoffman?

  So I definitely want to ask you a little bit more about that. But just some numbers about the price of this thing, since we are now in a post-drop world at 70 cents, which is what is currently trading at on CoinGecko. And 3 billion token supply, that is a market cap of $2.1 billion. And when you said 12% airdrop to the community, that is, if I'm doing my math right, I don't think I am, it's $2.1 billion times 0.12, is that right?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's like 240 million around.

• 34:59David Hoffman?

  Oh, that was right, yeah. So $250 million of value airdropped to some number, some thousands of people.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  And that's just season one. Season two just started.

• 35:11David Hoffman?

  Well, I'll have to ask about that. First, how does, just like reactions to the $2 billion market cap? And also reactions to giving $250 million towards how many ever, thousands of people, there's reactions to that?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  You know, first, first reaction is, you know, definitely, like I shared at the beginning of this call, please.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  When we think about the protocol and the token and and giving value to the community, you know, I didn't mention this at the beginning, but one of the other reasons that we thought a token made sense here was when we, when we looked at the market, it was clear there is all of this commercial activity happening on this web two sell marketplace and you know, if you looked at the value of that marketplace, right? So like OpenSea and the bull market was

• 36:10Speaker 01

  you know, raising at thirteen billion. I think I remember hearing that there were secondaries at like eighteen billion. But that value is, you know, just by no fault of OpenSea, it's just kind of due to how, you know, web two companies are structured. It's very concentrated, right? It's concentrated in the founders, concentrated in like A sixteen Z, you know, a few other funds. And that value does not go to the community. The power of a protocol is that when you can protocolize something, you can actually give away the tokens to the community. And then you have, when we thought about, you know, what, what was possible here, it's, oh, if we can actually execute in the way that we think it's possible to execute in terms of

• 36:52Speaker 01

  pursuing this market opportunity, we have the value to give away, you know, billions of dollars of value to the community. And when I think about as an end user, if I'm going to choose, you know, a web two solid thing where it's like, okay, I can, you know, I can use it and it works, right? It's like Facebook Marketplace or eBay, like that all works. Or I can use something that is actually going to effectively pay me to become a controller of that protocol for doing the same thing. I definitely want to go and use the thing that actually gives me more control, like it just, it just seems like a completely plus EV move. So, you know, being able to distribute in season one, two hundred and forty, you know, million dollars worth of value, two hundred fifty, that's, that's really incredible. But when we think about,

• 37:37Speaker 01

  you know, the reason for Blur having a token in the, in the first place, you know, really working with the community from here to be able to distribute even more values to the community, that's something that's really incredibly exciting to us. And that's something that is ultimately, I believe, in the best interest of the protocol. And like I mentioned before, I think that. When we think about protocol governance and the allocation of tokens via protocol governance, I think it's really important to think of it as capital allocation. And you want efficient capital allocation. You want to be allocating capital. In this case, the protocol is token treasury. You want to be allocating it into productive use cases that further the growth of the protocol. So we're definitely going to continue trying to contribute in that direction and making sure that it's valuable.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  But if the community does it right, we should be able to do it in a way that is incredibly rewarding to all the community members. And I think that what was done today is kind of just a taste of that, basically.

• 38:32David Hoffman?

  Well, I definitely have more questions because apparently we're about to go for round two with season two. So I want to ask about that, but I also want to just talk about the royalties wars because there's a topic of that I want to address with that and others as well. But first, we're going to have to pause for a break because I know this has been a very long day for you. So I want to give you a quick break while we talk to some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Uniswap is the largest on-chain place for self-custody digital assets. Uniswap is, of course, a decentralized exchange, but you know this because you've been listening to Bankless. But did you know that the Uniswap web app has a shiny new fiat on-ramp? Now you could go directly from fiat in your bank to tokens in DeFi inside of Uniswap.

• 39:16David Hoffman?

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• 39:54David Hoffman?

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• 40:39David Hoffman?

  and start building your first app. With Arbitrum, experience Web3 development the way it was meant to be: secure, fast, cheap, and friction-free.

• 40:49David Hoffman?

  And we are back, Bankless Nation. I got one last question that I should have asked earlier before we cut to commercials, but I want to ask you now.

• 40:59David Hoffman?

  OpenSea has equity, as we've discussed. And as you said, like all of the value of that equity stays away from the world of Web3, this fantastic world that we're all operating in. And so I was looking at doing analytics and just some of the volume numbers.

• 41:15David Hoffman?

  Blur's starting to approach OpenSea volumes. And so a question to you, Pac-Man, is now that Blur has this secret weapon, which is the token that's in the Web3 world. It's got a tool that OpenSea doesn't have. Do you think that this is the tool that's going to allow Blur Marketplace, the Blur Marketplace, to dethrone OpenSea as the number one NFT marketplace?

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. And, you know, actually, I am such a sickler on the metrics. I do believe that in the past week, Blur has done around 30% more volume than OpenSea. But you're right, that's something that has to be persisted for a long period of time before claiming that throne. And I think that there is multiple dimensions to this. One is Blur is fundamentally serving a A segment of the market that no one was really serving well at all, which was the pro traders. But when we think about the value of the token, ultimately, it is an incredible tool that enables huge unlocks that just weren't possible before. Even stepping back a bit, when you think about the NFT market and

• 42:22Speaker 01

  who wants exposure to that in the space, it's not just the NFT traders, it's not just the users of the space, but there's so many participants on the sidelines who are very aware of the growth of the space, right? All of the growth that Blur has achieved has been in the wake of FTX collapsing. The, you know, institutions that we all rely on for liquidity collapsing in the wake of that Luna collapsing. You know, all of the activity has maintained through one of the worst bear markets that we've ever seen. So the NFT space has really shown its longevity and stickiness effectively. It's something that, once people get in, they really get hooked. Like, that was the same thing that happened to me. And when you think, when you think about the participants that might want exposure to that,

• 43:04Speaker 01

  you know, before, it was very difficult to get that exposure. If you're a fund and you want a hundred million dollars of exposure to the NFT market, you can't just go and spend a hundred million dollars on NFTs. The space is just too illiquid for that, and it would just completely distort the prices. But now that Blur actually has leading market share in the space, it has enough market share that it effectively becomes an index on NFTs, and not just on NFTs, but actually on the fastest growing segment of NFTs, which is the pro trading segment. And that index is actually a huge unlock that can allow so many more players to get exposure to NFTs in a way that just wasn't really possible before.

• 43:39David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so when you look at the Blur token, how, how, how does it express itself? And I guess really only the market can really determine this. But like, in terms of like, what it gives over like governance over the Blur platform, how do you think it's going to be received by like the financial world around it? Like, what are people going to, when they see the Blur token? Do you think it's just going to give them access to just exposure to NFTs broadly without actually picking winners of NFTs specifically?

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it really depends on the participant, right? If you're someone that is an active NFT trader and you're, you know, in there grinding every day and just really, you know, in the space, then it's gonna be more of a reward and exposure to the growth of a protocol that you use, you know, every day effectively. But if you think about, you know, if you're a fund manager or if you're someone on the side that, you know, it's a very, it can be a very exhausting space. It's not necessarily for everyone, right? But I think almost, I mean, it doesn't take a genius to look at the charts and say, wow, this space is really growing. It's really sticky and it's getting so much adoption. When we think about the potential, you know, if you just think about

• 44:51Speaker 01

  the next generation of consumers, they grew up with digital objects, right? Like buying Fortnite skins and Roblox items in a way that millennials just never really did. So when you think about the potential of NFTs, it's just really massive. And for those players, Blur now effectively becomes a way to get exposure and a very passive vehicle effectively. So I think it is, it is different for, for everyone involved.

• 45:13David Hoffman?

  Uh, so let's talk about season two. Uh, what is involved with season two? Uh, you said season two's already started. So can you just tell us that story?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. So season two, you know, like we mentioned earlier, the initial, uh, 12% airdrop is all for season one. There's still a fairly large treasury that the community can vote on to, uh, utilize, right? For future incentives, uh, or for other programs, right? It doesn't have to just be for incentive programs. It can be for, you know, translation services, building new sub downs. I really like Maker Dow in terms of their efforts of starting sub downs, you know, all around the world, working on different initiatives. I think that that's a really beautiful unlock of up three. But one of the core things that we can do is actually continue the progression of the incentives.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Because if you look at the NFT market today, the reason why we would do this, you know, like I mentioned before, we stopped the listening incentives for season one and we saw the listing volume grow. So when we speak about efficient capital allocation, it doesn't necessarily make sense to keep on allocating heavily into that. But when we think about, you know, where, where do we go from here? If you look at the NFT infrastructure today, it's still very primitive, right? Like NFT, if you zoom out and think of it as an exchange, it's basically like a spot exchange, right? It's very simple. It doesn't really have any of these more. Interesting advanced financial primitives. And of course, you can't just treat it as an exchange. It is fundamentally a marketplace because NFTs are a different asset class and they're not. It's not an exchange.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  It is very much something that is a combination of shopping and trading, which is very interesting. But if you look at just how it developed, token infrastructure is, it gives you a sense that there's a lot more to come in the NFT space as it develops and professionalizes. And ultimately,

• 47:03Speaker 01

  given that there is still so much to develop, to us, it doesn't make sense for those incentives to just completely stop. Because there's new behaviors, there's new products that can be introduced. You know, not just from us as core contributors, but from the community. The community has shared some incredible ideas that I think are very exciting. And those are all things that can be pursued, you know, in season two effectively.

• 47:23David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so it's just the general vibe. Season one is seeding the community with a token that they will then need in season two to govern. And so like season one is distribution and season two is giving the community a voice and starting to incentivize governance, not just usage of the protocol. Is that a fair description?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely, definitely. And there is a specific allocation. So there's a incentive committee that can utilize up to 10% for season two or, you know, beyond rewards. Ultimately, though, anything beyond that is something that can be utilized via governance. And, you know, whether they're, you know, like if you look at the recent optimism airdrop, they actually just airdrop to people who participate in governance. That was very interesting. And I think that that's going to teach a lot of people, hey, actually, there's value in participating in governance. Because for a protocol, that does provide value. If you decentralize the holder base and decentralize the decision making even more so than it naturally occurs. So when we think about what happens from here on,

• 48:28Speaker 01

  the creative space is really massive. And of course, you know, thankfully, the Blur protocol has a very large treasury in which you can utilize these incentives to, again, allocate the capital in ways that are predictably growing the protocol.

• 48:42David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and of course, governance is very, very hard to game. So there is no such thing as like governance farming.

• 48:51David Hoffman?

  So I would imagine that asking about season three is just too far in the future because season three will probably only be determined by the governors that come about in season two. Is that right?

• 49:02Speaker 01

  I would think so, yes.

• 49:03David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Well, congratulations, Pacman. I know this is a very long day for you, so thank you for taking time out of your very busy, probably sleep deprived day to come and tell us a story of Blur.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  David, thank you so much for having me. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else right now.

• 49:18David Hoffman?

  Cheers. I did want to ask one last thing about the NFT royalty wars. That is a whole entire episode in of itself, but I just want to ask you to pick your brain really quickly about that. It kind of just sounds like there's, from my DeFi side of my perspective here, is that there's been this tug of war between OpenSea and Blur about how to enforce royalties and Blur is fighting for the most optimized trading experience and OpenSea is trying to optimize for artists and royalties and there's been this tug of war here. Do you have any thoughts or anything, any ideas you want to share about that?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question. I think that we definitely have different ideas on what will actually work in this space. So just for a bit of context, when about two weeks, I think, after launch or maybe three, OpenSea kind of came out with a new policy where they said, if you're a collection creator, you need to filter Blur, otherwise you won't be able to earn royalties on OpenSea. And when we saw that policy, you know, we were basically like, oh, we can actually adopt this and start enforcing royalties on collections that you license ourselves. Because ultimately, if they have a way to temporarily

• 50:37Speaker 01

  block trades that don't honor royalties, then that's something that we can get behind and adopt. The issue is that when a collection doesn't have the ability to do that, then, you know, there are other protocols. You know, there are like AMMs for NFTs, there are, you know, zero royalty web two sell marketplaces that effectively take a, you know, royalty evasion approach for growth. And there's nothing that can really stop trading from going to those platforms. And, you know, if you Observe the market, you can clearly see that this this market and markets in general, they do operate in an efficient way. They do trend towards lower fees over time. And if you create an incentive for them to trend to no fee venues.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Right? So if all the existing marketplaces enforce royalties across the board and they never change their position. All that does is it's going to create an incentive for a new player to come in and say, we're actually going to not do this. We're going to be the bad guy and we're going to get all the growth because the market ultimately doesn't really care. It's a Moloch trap, yeah. So when we thought about what made sense here, it was really just about, okay, can we? Can we design a system that is actually going to reach a steady state? The thing that we didn't want to do is we didn't want to take a policy that sounded really good, but wouldn't work for more than, you know, a month, maybe two months. And so we've tried to take a more, you know, thread the needle approach.

• 52:04Speaker 01

  For example, we adopted full royalties on all collections that had a filter in them, not because the filters aren't circumventable. Ultimately, I think in the DeFi world, you know, people have explored this problem extensively and there isn't really a way to actually protect royalties in a fully on-chain way. It just, it just doesn't work. You can always create a wrapper or you can do something uh to get around it and it's not sustainable from a coding standpoint. So we know that an on-chain filter won't work in the long run, but if it works in the short run, just because people haven't really updated their systems or, you know, players haven't come around, you know, circumventing them, then that's something that we can adopt at least in the short term. And that made sense to us, which is why

• 52:46Speaker 01

  we actually adopted it within a week of of the release of the policy. But then for the existing collections, it's really been about how can we thread the needle so that we can actually increase the royalty enforcement without also increasing the incentive to. Depart from Blur and go to another protocol that maybe is taking a more aggressive approach. And so what we did was, starting on January first, we started enforcing a minimum 0.5% royalties. We kind of evaluated the market and we felt like 0.5% was a reasonable minimum. And we felt like the traders wouldn't really leave Blur, you know, with that fee. And it actually worked really well. And if you, if you look at the fees chart, uh, Token Terminal has a really great fees chart for Blur. You can see it just shot up immediately afterwards.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Um, and that was after evaluating, okay, we can actually do this without impacting market. Uh, and effectively reducing the net royalties paid by, you know, cause if we set, you can imagine if we set the minimum to 10%. What that would do is basically everyone would stop using Blur and everyone would just start using, you know, zero royalty solutions immediately. So it just doesn't accomplish anything. So we're basically trying to thread the needle. I think that's really the main difference in approaches that we see. I think philosophically, we're probably aligned, although we're definitely more on the pro decentralization. Then I think that introducing any form of centralization in the native asset uh, of the space just creates supreme dangers. You know, it's imagine if like Satoshi Nakamoto just had like the ability to, to take away people's, you know, Bitcoins.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  It would just be, it would just kill the entire space automatically. So we think it's very, very dangerous and we really try to stray away from that. But we are effectively trying to take a more game, game theoretic approach. Um, I think it's a difficult problem, but ultimately when we project out five, 10 years from now. I don't think that we kind of are in these like constant battles and, you know, these like skirmishes that just like never end. I think that there is a steady state and ultimately we're trying to push ourselves and push the NFT space towards that steady state. We don't quite know what it is, but I feel fairly confident in knowing what it isn't. And, you know, what the space was doing before really isn't a steady state, cause there's just clear it was. It was just unstable. Yeah, it was just unstable.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  So we're trying, we're trying to figure out, you know, what is, what is stable and, you know, like, like I shared, like when, when we launched bidding and the incentives. People were saying that uh, Blur was like hurting floors, like no matter which way we did the incentives. Um, it's been an interesting experience because the market doesn't necessarily always come to the same conclusions that, that we do. Even though sometimes we think that they're fairly straightforward conclusions. Um, but you know, that's just, that's just a part of being an operator in the space. And that's a, another uh, aspect of, you know, of playing in this game that we just have to navigate.

• 55:31David Hoffman?

  Sure, of course, and I do appreciate the thoughts and that you've thought so much about this. It sounds like it's a very coherent strategy that you guys are running with. So, thank you for everything you're doing for moving the space forward and excited to see the future of Blur. Pacman, if people want to learn more and they don't know where to go, where should they go?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Twitter is definitely the best starting point. It's blur underscore io. There have been an incredible number of scams and phishing attempts, though, especially around our token launch. So just make sure to type in B L U R underscore I O. Or if you want to be safe, go to B L U R dot I O. Go to the website directly, but we link to everything, you know, from the official website. And before clicking any links, please, please, please double check the URL, maybe type it out yourself. L and I on most platforms look exactly the same. It's a terrible thing. They should use a different font, but L and I look exactly the same, so it's super easy to get phished. You know, type in B L U R and check Blur out, please.

• 56:36David Hoffman?

  Awesome. Thank you so much, Pacman, and I will finally give you some rest for what has been, I'm sure, one of the longest days in your life, but thank you for coming on Bankless and telling us a story.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 56:47David Hoffman?

  Cheers. Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal. Risks and disclaimers. Crypto is risky. DeFi is risky. NFTs are risky. So is getting phished, so be careful when you type in that URL. But nonetheless, we are headed west. This is the frontier, but we are glad you are with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.

• 57:40David Hoffman?

  The.