Camila Russo | Layer Zero

Camila Russo is the author of The Infinite Machine and founder of The Defiant, the DeFi-focused media company. Camila has a rich backstory, taking her from Chile to Argentina, Miami, Madrid, Chicago, and eventually New York. With an entrepreneurial spirit and a passion for storytelling and journalism, Cami has earned her reputation as a leader in the space. As the Defiant expands into new territories of both data and content, Camila discusses her story of breaking into the world of journalism and finding crypto. As institutions flock to the space, it’s important to remember that stories and narratives are what capture the heart and minds of the people. ***** 📣 POOLTOGETHER | DEFI LOTTERY https://bankless.cc/PoolTogether ***** 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🍵 MATCHA | DECENTRALIZED EXCHANGE AGGREGATOR https://bankless.cc/Matcha 🔐 LEDGER | SECURE YOUR ASSETS https://bankless.cc/Ledger 🧙‍♀️ ALCHEMIX | SELF-PAYING LOANS http://bankless.cc/Alchemix ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 3:30 Cami Russo & South America 9:20 Entrepreneurial Spirit 15:22 Cami’s Start 21:28 Educating 25:35 The Dopamine of Scoops 31:05 Bitcoin to Ethereum 40:00 Why Ethereum? 46:05 Joining the Community 52:40 The Infinite Machine 1:01:23 The Power of Stories 1:07:44 Starting the Defiant 1:15 :08 Talking Shop 1:23:04 Narrative & Subjectivity 1:26:38 Maximally Successful Defiant 1:30:30 Closing ------ Resources: Camila on Twitter: https://twitter.com/CamiRusso?s=20 The Defiant: https://thedefiant.io/ ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast focusing on the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but it is composed by people and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cypherpunks understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it and Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code because Ethereum is people all the way down and it always has been. Today on Layer Zero, we're talking with Cami Russo, the Chief S of The Defiant, and Cami, I think, has one of the most interesting stories and interesting backgrounds that I've heard so far. She has a very logical process, and we talked about this, a logical process of like who she is is definitely an A plus B equals C conclusion out of her parents and

• 0:52David Hoffman?

  her family. She's got that entrepreneurial spirit. She's got a drive to create. She's got an intrinsic interest in journalism and it kind of has logically concluded with where she is at now, which is at The Defiant. But we start at the very beginning. We start at her time as a child in Chile, when she moved again as a young kid to Miami, then back to Chile for a degree in journalism, and then moving into her time at Bloomberg. And it was overall just a fascinating story and I'm having a ton of fun doing these Layer Zeros because I just get to sit back for an hour and a half and hear story time from each of these individual guests. And I think Cami's story has been one of my favorites so far.

• 1:36David Hoffman?

  We definitely tap on the differences at the very end between Bankless and The Defiant. So that was a fun little thing to hear. And we also talk about, I share my perception as to how Cami's book that she wrote changed the course of Ethereum for the much, much better. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Cami Russo, one of the best leaders in this space. But first, before we get there, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Matcha, everyone's favorite Dex aggregator, has just launched an Open beta for gasless trading. So if you're trading more than $5,000 in common ETH and wrapped Bitcoin pairs, then your gas fees on Matcha are free. And that's why you should be using Matcha.

• 2:21David Hoffman?

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• 3:04David Hoffman?

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• 3:45David Hoffman?

  V2 is rapidly approaching, which will allow for even more collateral types plus a variety of yield strategies to choose from. Harness the power of Alchemix at alchemix.fi. That's A-L-C-H-E-M-I-X dot F-I. Follow Alchemix on Twitter at @AlchemixFI and join the Discord to keep up to date with Alchemix V2 and to get involved in governance.

• 4:08David Hoffman?

  Hey Kami, how's it going?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Hi David, all good.

• 4:11David Hoffman?

  So we were just talking before we hit record as two people who both have their own Youtubes and then also consume other people's Youtubes. I had to ask you the questions like, wait, have we talked before or have we not talked before? Like it's actually kind of hard after like two years of making and also consuming content to remember if we've actually been into the same Zoom. But we've decided that no, this is actually the first time.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's so great to finally do it.

• 4:37David Hoffman?

  Absolutely, absolutely. So congratulations with everything you've built at The Defiant. And I definitely want to hear about that story, but I think I want to get there in the second half. And so the first half, I want to hear just a little bit more about your background and what about your, you know, your, you know, your younger years that caused you to become the person that you are today? So let's go all the way back. Kami, where were you raised?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  I was raised in Santiago, Chile, South America.

• 5:11David Hoffman?

  Yeah? Where in Chile?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Santiago, the capital.

• 5:16David Hoffman?

  Right, right, right. Okay, and that's like right in the middle, right?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's right in the center of Chile, in the middle of the mountains.

• 5:24Speaker 01

  So yeah, it's a nice, nice city. It used to be one of the most stable and like, I don't know, like one of the few places that just like worked in South America. So it was, it's funny, like growing up, I didn't have a lot of the issues that a lot of other people in South America had to deal with. Like, didn't hear about inflation or like currency controls or like scarcity of goods or anything like that. Chile is like actually really close or has been historically very close to the US.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  So it has like a bunch of like, like trade deals everywhere and it's like pretty open. So.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  You know, like, that's, I, I grew up in, in this, like, bubble within, uh, South America, where everything was fine, everything worked, like, you didn't have that, like, crazy in- instability. Um, but then, later on, I moved to Argentina, and that's where I got a taste of all that, uh, all that craziness, so.

• 6:32David Hoffman?

  Right, the Argentinean stories, the, the story that you hear a lot of, right? Mariano Conti tells this story a lot, uh, Patricio tells a story a lot of, of exactly what you just described, right? Uh, and that's kind of been the kind of, like, crypto rallying cries, like, oh, look at the capital controls and the inflation going on in, in Argentina. It's interesting that, like, literally right next door, uh, is a, a country that didn't have that history. Um, well, how would you describe the Chilean economy, growing up? Like, was there, like, uh, for, for what I'm familiar with, with Argentina, it's very big in, like, you know, beef and agriculture and also tech. Uh, wh- what were you surrounded by, uh, growing up in, in Chile?

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Um, well, and, and, and before I go into that, the, yeah, that, that economy is so interesting, because actually, when my parents were growing up in Chile, it was the, the other way around, and e- even more so, like, m- my grandparents. Argentina was like, the big, like, stable, or, or not stable, but just like, growing economic force, uh, in kind of the southern cone of, of South America. And Chile was just like, this really, like, poor, like, struggling country. And then the roles, like, really, really, kind of, like, two generations, so it's, it's, it's like, really interesting to see that, uh, how that happened. Um, and it's all because of just, like, very populist policies implemented in Ar- in Argentina, while

• 8:00Speaker 01

  there were more, like, free market policies implemented in, in Chile. Um, but yeah, like, the Chile's main export is copper, so very much, uh, commodity-led, um, economy. Uh, but, um, my parents were both...

• 8:17Speaker 01

  Pretty entrepreneurial, uh, my whole, my whole family is, so, um.

• 8:24David Hoffman?

  So that's where you get it from?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Yep, I, I, I have a really great example set with, with my family. So yeah, my, my dad is an engineer, uh, my, um, mom studied art advertising, but never really, she was like, uh, she started, um, a, actually a toy importer in, in Chile. So like when, when she had me, she was looking for educational toys for kids. And she couldn't find like any quality toys that didn't have like, you know, harmful like materials and stuff like that. Um, and so she started importing Fisher Price toys into Chile and was like one of the first, uh, or like the first person to do that. So she and my dad set up a toy store, which was very convenient for me growing up.

• 9:10David Hoffman?

  Wow, the kid, the kid with the parents that have a toy store, you must have been a hit.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:16David Hoffman?

  That's pretty funny. Um, so in growing, growing up, were you, uh, were you exposed to any like things that you have been able to like repurpose now, like, um, uh, when did you get, uh, like your access to your first computer? Uh, when did, like, what was, did you ever have like an entrepreneurial experience or anything with computer science? Like anything that is like now related to crypto, what was like the earliest part of your, like your childhood or, or growing up phase? Where you actually was like, oh yeah, so I was doing this as a kid and now I do this as an adult.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting question. Um, well, like, just like the computer access, I think is pretty similar to what any like kid in the US had, you know, like, I don't know, like I, I had my computer room growing up, like had, um, just like, got like a, like a Facebook account very early on and, um, remember like transitioning from, uh, like, um, floppy disks to like CDs and like all that, like, yeah, you, you can, I'm dating myself for sure, I'm older millennial here. Um, so all of that, I don't think is is is like too different. Um, I think maybe like some of the influences, like I said, it's just like all of my family is somewhat uh entrepreneurial.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Um, my brother, my younger brother, uh he's uh three years younger than me. He never actually, he never had a an actual job, like, un unlike me, who like I went in a more traditional uh direction, uh going into Bloomberg, uh after uh studying journalism in in university. Uh, and it took me like, you know, almost over ten years to actually start uh like quit and and start my own company. My brother never, never had like a full-time job, like he's always been a full-time uh entrepreneur. He, he uh, he started this uh kind of like Yelp, like early version of Yelp in Chile for restaurants in in Santiago.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Um, then he had this like Instagram profile uh called Poof, and he, he was actually part of um uh Techstars, which is like a big incubator, and he uh he lived in New York before I did uh for Techstars. Um, and now he has a liquor company called Candela. Um, and he got the idea of the liquor company in a trip to the Dominican Republic. Uh, and I was there when he got the idea, like, uh, we went up to the bar in in the resort. And uh, the, the, we were like, okay, give us like the, what you, what you drink, like, we don't pinata and stuff, and, and so he, he uh made us try Mama Juana, which was like, it's like the local rum,

• 11:56Speaker 01

  like a spiced rum that they drink in the Dominican Republic. And we loved it, and so my brother was like, I can't believe like they don't sell this outside of the DR. And so that's, you know, what he does now, like he's now based in in Miami and has his, has his own kind of liquor company. So, I have like that example, my, my parents' example, and um, so I, I always thought it was like, like feasible to quit everything and start your own thing, like, if, if that was like actually, like a career path that didn't seem so outlandish to me growing up, because I had like all these different examples of people who did it. Um, and then from

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Like the journalism side, um, I, I always, I've always li- loved writing. Um, so I, I, I moved to Miami for a brief period when I was growing up. Uh, I lived there for three years and, um, I was nine years old. And when I moved, my grandmother gave me a journal and she's like, you're gonna wanna write everything down. And I think that's kind of what, what started it because I, I got to Miami and was like, you know, dealing with all these different experiences and emotions and like missing home, but also learning so much and having a good time and like all this stuff. And so I started just like writing everything down on, on this journal.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  And from then on, like I had, I always kept journals and it just like, I don't know. I think it, it made me like writing, uh, ever since. So, um, and then, uh, my mom, uh, was editor in chief for, uh, Conde Nast, for a bunch of like, uh, Spanish versions of like big magazines like Glamour, Vogue, uh, Discover, like a lot of Conde Nast magazines she helped run. Um, so like I just grew up in like the editorial and publishing world. Like I, I, I loved going with my mom over the weekend to the office, like making sure that everything was closed, like I saw just like the printouts of like magazine covers. And I just love that whole world.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So, uh, that kind of writing plus that experience really just made me wanna be a journalist. And yeah, here I am.

• 14:13David Hoffman?

  That's a, that's such an easy story to, uh, have like, all right, like A plus B equals C, right? So like, you know, uh, Kami, uh, daughter of a very entrepreneurial family, entrepreneurial brother. Uh, grandma gives you a journal, come to America, which is like a very transitional moment. Like you're going, moving from A to B anywhere. And then you are given a journal to help, you know, deal with the emotions of, you know, a change. And then all of a sudden we have Kami, the entrepreneurial journalist writer, operating the defiance. It's such a very logical conclusion of, of like the rest of your family. Yeah.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Um, there, there's a quote, uh, and actually my, my brother said it at my wedding. Um, and it always sticks with me. It's like the, it's always easy to connect the dots looking backwards. So now, now it makes sense, right? Um, but you know, at the time I had no idea I would end up living in New York, uh, running my own media company. You know, it's like, I never imagined that, uh, when I went into, uh, journalism in the first place.

• 15:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that, that's fantastic. Where did you go for journalism? What, what university?

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Um, university in Chile, eh, Universidad Católica, like eh, one of, one of the good ones in Chile. Um, then I worked at a newspaper there, El Mercurio. It's like one of the, uh, bigger, eh, or the biggest newspaper, newspaper in Chile. And, um, yeah, so I was like working in El Mercurio. And I had this, uh, woman ask me who, she's amazing. I love her. Um, but you know, she had been there, I think, like at that same desk for thirty years. And because it's like you get to El Mercurio and you don't move. It's like, it's an institution in Chile, like

• 16:07Speaker 01

  everyone reads it. Um, so I was like, okay, I'm already here. Like, I don't wanna be here in like the next thirty years. Like what, what should I do next? Uh, and, and you know, having the experience of having lived in the U S, uh, when, when I was growing up. Um, again, like it didn't, it, it felt like, okay, like maybe I should look beyond, eh, Chile and, and see what's out there. Um, and so I applied to different journalism schools here. Uh, with always like the, the goal of getting a big, like a job at a big U S media company. That was like my, my end goal. And so to do that, I, I, I realized that I, I needed

• 16:50Speaker 01

  a degree from a U S school because nobody would look at my degree from Universidad Católica and be like, sure, yeah, come join the New York Times. Um, so, uh, so yeah, applied to different schools and got into Northwestern. Um, and from there, I, uh, I got into Bloomberg and to like the Bloomberg internship.

• 17:12David Hoffman?

  So throughout that process, when you were writing either at your job or practicing for your job, what was the subject matter that you were focused on? Because we're not at the crypto part of this story, right? Like, we're still pre-crypto. So like, what captured your attention while you were a writer?

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Um, I think, let's see. Well, in El Mercurio, I was in the international news section. And I think, you know, that's something I enjoyed. Um, it's funny, like, before getting to Northwestern and Bloomberg, I never really looked at financial markets or anything close to crypto. Um, and like, I got into journalism. I like writing and it's like, I like the more, I don't know, like, I never, I never saw myself as a, like, numbers person. Um, so, yeah, I gravitated more towards, like, politics, you know, uh, stories.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Um, it's funny, in El Mercurio, they initially wanted me to do, um, like, the social pages. And so they called me up and they were like, "Okay, yeah, you, you're in. Uh, your first job is going to be in the social pages." And that's been like, you know, like, following, like, local celebrities around. And I, like, I turned it down. I was like, "No."

• 18:37Speaker 01

  And they're like, "What? You're turning down a job at El Mercurio?" I'm like, "Yeah, no, I don't want to do that." And then they came back and were like, "Fine, you can cover international politics." That was a big improvement. Um, so, yeah, that's, that's kind of what I did. And then in Northwestern, I had the, I had to choose between different kind of, um, topics for the reporting class. And there was, like, politics, um, uh, business, like, environment and art or something. And I thought, you know, like, I'm paying a bunch of money to be here. Like, I took a loan to go to Northwestern. So it was like, this better pay off, or else, you know?

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Um, and so, eh, I thought, you know, I need to make this worthwhile and learn something I don't actually know. So I thought, like, going into, like, the business, eh, reporting class would be the most useful, because I had no idea about anything about business. Um, and I discovered that I actually really like uh reporting, you know, writing about money, like reporting about like, you know, market. Um, because to me, it it it was nice to find a more objective way of telling story. Right? Like in politics, it's like always one side versus the other.

• 20:00Speaker 01

  And he said, she said, um, you don't have like, like a fact that you can present and be like, this is what's happening. And it's pretty kind of hard to dispute. And with with like markets and business stories, you know, there's like different ways to interpret numbers. But in the end, a stock is going up and it's going up and it's going down and it's going down. And it's like countries' bond yields actually are like, are a really good way of representing how thousands of people think about one country, you know? So I just thought that was really interesting and and and just like a very like truthful way of uh seeing the world and presenting the world.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  So I was really excited uh by this discovery and um and I just uh, yeah, I decided to just like focus on that, on like business and and market reporting. And then we had this like field trip to the Bloomberg office in Chicago, because Northwestern is in Chicago. Um, and I was like blown away by the power of the Bloomberg terminal. Like this, there's this like black box that just like gets you all the data you could possibly want. Um, and it's just like connected to all the like decision makers of the world. And all of these, you know, big brains are consuming your your news and your stories. And I'm like, okay, this is where I I I wanna be.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  So that led me to apply to the internship there.

• 21:28David Hoffman?

  So is all of your like um, your understanding of like money, business, economics, done like on the, is like on the job training? Like you, you had to do, like you never took, you still never took a class. So you you only ever learned about this this um, just by teaching yourself?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was crazy. Um.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Um, right, like I, I, I, I had this like business journalism class from Northwestern, which I mean, they, they did like teach the basics of like economics. But that was pretty much it. Like that was my background going into Bloomberg. And yeah, you learn everything on the job and you have, you know, this amazing tool that the like professional like fund managers and uh like central bank economists all over the world use, but and and you're just like starting out of, you know, the first job uh as a journalist and you have the same tool. It's like, it, it like really forces you to to understand things like, oh, like what is a bond yield?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  And writing about all that stuff. Um, yeah, it's like I learned really quickly that I just had to lose the fear of asking dumb questions because, you know, it's like I had to get, get a story out at the end of the day and um, and I had to at least like I had to understand it, obviously to write it. So I would like get on the phone and just like ask, ask like everything, like explain what, what a stock is. You know, um, and like literally it was like, because like I, I started like calling uh sources and then they would uh and and reporters like more scenery reporters would help me out and just like write out questions that they needed for their stories.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Um, and then I remember like having these conversations where I would just like go down the list of questions and I had no idea what like what the person was answering, like what the answer was. So I could like to couldn't do any follow up, couldn't like follow the conversation. So then I just like started like asking my own questions and was like, okay, but what do you mean by that? Yeah, and that's, that's really how, how I learned everything I know about uh finance and, and markets. Um, a dear that at Bloomberg.

• 23:45David Hoffman?

  When you started asking your own questions, did that like, was that really just you trying to educate yourself or is that you learning to be a reporter of your own style? And because for, for me, um,

• 24:00David Hoffman?

  Sometimes I try and I try and find the question that other people want me to ask, but then there's always like, okay, well, if that's not the question that I truly want to ask, maybe the question that I truly want to ask is also the same question that other people have too.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:16David Hoffman?

  Can you reflect on that for a moment?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And by the way, I think you're you're you're an awesome interviewer.

• 24:22David Hoffman?

  Thank you.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, like all these questions, I don't think I've heard them before. So, yeah.

• 24:29David Hoffman?

  Well, that's hopefully why people tune into the Layer Zeros. That's what they're meant for.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, really great.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  It was definitely both. Like, I was trying to learn and understand what the story was about so I could write it.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  But, yeah, I was I was learning to be a journalist as well as learning about finance and markets. So, you know, it's like, once you get a taste of having a scoop of like, having a really well-read story of like, I don't know, getting like a really like cool and important source. It's really addictive, you know? So it's like, okay, like you get that taste and you want to you want to do it again. So you try to like, get something out of your interviewer that nobody, nobody has. And I think, yeah, it's like that dopamine of like the views and like,

• 25:29Speaker 01

  just like I'm covering things that that haven't been been said before. It's kind of what what starts to drive you as a journalist.

• 25:35David Hoffman?

  Yeah, can you go into that a little more? I think I think I find that extremely fascinating, like the dopamine hit of like discovering a scoop. Do you have a story where you like got a scoop? And what are you just like furiously typing, trying to get the scoop out the door as fast as possible? You have a story like that?

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, so, okay, the first one that comes to mind eh, in Argentina, um, there was this period of time where everyone, or it seemed like everyone was leaving Argentina, just like running out the door. Because the president, Cristina Fernandez, had turned like just even, even more anti uh, like international companies and anti-free market. So like, there was like a bunch of stories breaking everywhere about like this fund was leaving or this company was leaving. And um, and there was like a source that I, about like, a, a source from a, a, a pretty big hedge fund uh, based there and, and they were like

• 26:35Speaker 01

  really big in, in Argentina, like they, they, they were like big, really big investors in Argentine bonds and, and stocks. And so you always call this guy. And I remember there was like one week where I, I called him and he just like wasn't picking up and then I called again, um, no answer. Then I called like not his direct phone, but like the, the like general number, nobody was picking up. So I was like, I wonder like maybe these guys are all like have also left. And so like, I remember like going through like different ways to try to confirm. And so I think I asked him directly, but like he didn't say. Um, and then I, there was like one, one of the fund and guys was based in London.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  And I had like talked with him a couple of times. So I, I called him up and I was like, "Hey, so, um, I, I asked a question in a way that assumed that they had left Argentina." So I was like, "Hey, so like, um, when are you like, when, when's your last day in Argentina?" I don't remember what I asked, but like, it was like a question like that.

• 27:41David Hoffman?

  It was like a clever framing? Is that, is that the gist?

• 27:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:44David Hoffman?

  Yeah, okay, cool.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Like it assumed, like the question assumed that they had left, so. Uh, but yeah, yeah, he and he answered something like, oh yeah, like we we're we're like uh tomorrow's our last day or something like he answered the question kind of like basically confirming that that they were leaving. And so I was like, huh, okay. Um, so I'm just wondering, like, is is the reason you're leaving because of our did like Argentina's really uh really bad uh like unfriendly policies? Oh, yeah, totally. Like, they they suck, whatever. I don't that's not the actual quote, but and

• 28:19David Hoffman?

  Meaning is there, but quote quote's not there, but meaning is there. Sure. Yeah.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, oh, my God, like, I got this scoop, like, this big fund is leaving Argentina. Um, wrote that up uh like big headlines, like, sounds a bit, and then I got like this enraged call

• 28:36David Hoffman?

  Hmm.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  From from the guy who gave me the quote. And he's like, I thought you were like, I didn't come like, I don't know. He like, and I I record everything. And so I had I had the thing and and he complained, he complained to my boss. He's like, I I didn't mean for that to be the news or whatever. And like, you know, I called, I asked you, this is what you said. I have the recording, I have the quote, like, and and it was this whole thing, like, my my editor had to, like, look at my notes and my recording. And they were like, no, Camila's right, like, it's just like, it's just false. Like, are you not leaving? They were like, well, yeah.

• 29:17David Hoffman?

  Confirms it twice. That's awesome. Okay, so, um, what motivates the scoop? Is it like the thrill? Uh, is it like the the the possibility of like fame and prowess? Is it just like becoming a better journalist? Like, what what motivates the scoop?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Um,

• 29:38Speaker 01

  I don't, it's, I don't know. It's it's a it's a mix of of all of that. You know, it's like, it's fun. It's fun to uncover stuff, you know? It's like, you feel like a detective. Um,

• 29:46David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Um, and and really, like, if if your your job is to just, you know,

• 29:56Speaker 01

  Report on what's happening. I mean, what better way to do it if you're reporting something that nobody else has reported? It's like, you know, the ultimate reporting. Um, so yeah, it's fun.

• 30:09David Hoffman?

  Finding buried treasure.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's fun, it's fun. Um, though I'll say like scoops aren't really kind of my, my specialty like I, I love like getting them. Um, but I, I think I enjoy even more. Um, just like the, the feature type of story, you know, uh, like having long interviews. Uh, going on onsite to see things and just like be able to like build a narrative around that and. Um, and it, it can still be kind of scoby, you know, it can be like a, a story that nobody else has, has reported. Um, but I, I like the, the more like a feature kind of analytical, um. Type of story that just like, oh, like this, this happened.

• 30:57David Hoffman?

  Right, right, right. The, the longer forms, the, the, the stories, not the, not the breaking news. Yeah.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:04David Hoffman?

  I, I think, um, at, at this point in your, uh, we, we kind of went on a, a, a side quest to talk about scoops, but. Uh, I, I, where we were was you were, uh, working at Bloomberg, being a journalist and had just gotten into, into markets. And business and finance and all that stuff. And I think what comes next is the Ethereum side of things. Is that right?

• 31:26Speaker 01

  No, not quite. Um, let's see. Uh, okay. So. First comes, uh, before Ethereum, actually, uh, can't comes Bitcoin in, in my, in my timeline. So, um. In Argentina, I was, this was 2013. And, um, I was reporting on like inflation and, and currency controls and like all the different ways investors have to, um. You know, protect themselves against, against it. And, you know, I, I've told this story before, but it's, it's really like. What has shaped my, my view of the world and why I think crypto is so, so valuable?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  And it's my own experience with inflation and currency controls because I was earning Argentine pesos. As a Bloomberg reporter in, in Argentina. So like, I really felt, um. You know, the, the impact of what inflation, uh, can do to your savings, you know, it's like. Twenty-five percent inflation at the time that I was there meant, um, you know, keeping any, any pesos in the bank, uh, meant losing out on, on, on my savings and my money. So, um, like, as soon as I got to Argentina, the first thing I was told was you need to convert your pesos to dollars. And that's how everyone thinks, like, everyone thinks in dollars.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  And if you ask any, like, anyone on the street, they'll tell you the exact dollar rate that day. Like, it's just like very kind of ingrained in Argentine culture. Um, and so to, to have, like, the president one day announce you can't buy dollars anymore? It was just like a huge shock. Like, how, how could it be that, uh, like, the government can one day tell me what it can and can't do with the money that I earned? And that's in, like, my bank account. Um, so that, like, really shocked me. Um, like, I, I literally, like, after the announcement, I, I still had some, like, Argentine pesos in, in my bank account. And before, I, like, I had a peso account and a dollar account.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  And there was just, like, this very easy way of transferring money from one account to another. And then after the announcement, like, I went to, to my bank and the option just, like, wasn't there anymore. Like, just, like, wasn't there. So I'm, like, stuck in pesos for, like, whatever amount I had.

• 33:50David Hoffman?

  Got rugged.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, rugged by the Argentine government. Um, so, so, yeah, so then, like, I, I, somebody, um, uh, uh, actually, like, an Argentine Bloomberg reporter who was based in Spain told me there's this Bitcoin thing that's really gaining steam in Argentina. Like, I have, like, a bunch of friends talking about it's going to meet up and stuff. So I, I looked into it and had to convince, uh, my editors at Bloomberg that this was actually kind of worth reporting. Um, and, and that's kind of the first story I wrote, uh, about crypto ever in, in twenty thirteen. Um, and then from there, I was just, like, really interested. I was like, okay, this is really valuable.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  It's a, a currency that's independent, but doesn't have any central banks or, you know, can't be censored and so on. So, uh, that, that was kind of my first look, um, at crypto.

• 34:49David Hoffman?

  That story that you wrote in 2013, right after you experienced capital controls, you said you wrote, that was the first story that you wrote. Was it a story about people using Bitcoin as a result of the capital controls? Or was it more just a story about Bitcoin itself? And the only thing that, it was the capital control story that motivated this story? What was the actual story?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it was a story about, you know, there's, there's all this inflation. There's capital controls and there's this like growing community in Argentina that are, is using Bitcoin to protect themselves against inflation. And so there's, the story looked at that, like interviewed a couple of people in Argentina who were like buying Bitcoin, I think. And then just like gave context, oh, like Bitcoin this year surpassed a thousand dollars for the first time and blah, blah, you know?

• 35:42David Hoffman?

  So I made the naive mistake of assuming that you started off with Ethereum somehow. Cause I always thought that like you had gotten into writing for Bloomberg and then, and then learned about this Ethereum thing and then wanted to write about Ethereum. I actually didn't know that you actually had such an early history with Bitcoin all the way back in 2013.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was like that one story. After that, like I just like kept writing market stories about Argentina. And then I moved to Madrid. I was there for two and a half years, writing about European stocks. Like, like didn't think about crypto very much at all at the time.

• 36:23David Hoffman?

  So the Bitcoin brain virus didn't make it into your head?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  No, it's just like something like, oh, like this is interesting. This is like really cool.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  But no, it didn't like totally consume me. Like it didn't go down like this like rabbit hole that like dragged me in and then like didn't let me out. Now like, it was like, okay, this is interesting. This is valuable. I see that crypto is cool. But then I just like kept on with, with my life. Unfortunately, I didn't even buy Bitcoin at the time.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Uh, so, yeah, and, and then, yeah, like, I kept, you know, writing just like regular tr- tr- tr- market stories. And until I moved back to New York with Bloomberg in, in twenty seventeen. And at the time, I was with, uh, this team called Markets Live, which just blogged about, uh, like, real-time market moves, uh, for, for the Bloomberg Terminal. And it was cool because, like, we had the flexibility of writing about whatever was interesting in the market. And it was just like, like, quick blog posts, like, maybe like two, like, two graphs and, like, and that chart and for something.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Um, and so twenty seventeen, obviously, huge year for crypto. And because I was already, like, I knew something about it, I had kind of like, uh, kept, uh, just like informed about the space. Um, and so I just like kept writing like, uh, uh, blogs, like blog posts for Markets Live. And then my editor for actually, um, interested in me covering crypto for, for like elsewhere in Bloomberg, because there was just like huge demand and interest for crypto that year. Like, anything with Bitcoin on the headline would jump to most read on the Bloomberg Terminal. And there, there just like weren't any, like, dedicated crypto journalists, um, at Bloomberg.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  And since I had an interest, they were like, can you cover this thing? So, uh, I, I started to have this like, like, second job, which was to cover the crypto market. Um, and that, that's when I, I learned about Ethereum. And because like, a, a lot of the story that year was ICOs.

• 38:43David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  So I wrote the first, like, ICO story for Bloomberg and trying to, like, understand, like, it was just like very strange to me, like, oh, like, all these different coins, like, where do they come from? Like, what are they? Um, and then-

• 39:00David Hoffman?

  Why does every single one pump?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Right. Everything is green. Um, it's, yeah, it was, it was really strange. And then I realized, oh, like, all of these coins come from this, like, mega coin, like Ethereum.

• 39:16David Hoffman?

  I have never heard Ethereum be called the mega coin yet, that's awesome.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, like this is the origin of like all these coins is this this thing. So I was like, oh, that's interesting. Um, and and yeah, that's that's kind of how I started like really writing about about crypto and just like never stopped writing since uh 2017. That that really just like fascinated me and consumed me and then in the 2017, I I pitched to write um a book on Ethereum and and yeah, and yeah, like writing for the infinite machines that like really um it was like Ethereum was like all I I thought about for like two years.

• 40:01David Hoffman?

  Why did Ethereum uh consume you in a way that Bitcoin didn't?

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Um, you know, like, I think the the truth is, I I just thought the stories um behind Ethereum were were more interesting, um just like the people uh behind Ethereum. Um, I mean, on on one hand, like the story of Bitcoin had pretty much, you know, had had been told. Um, and I don't like you, you didn't find as much activity then, uh even then, like, of course, like now it's it's self evident how how much more activity there is on on Bitcoin than on

• 40:46Speaker 01

  uh uh on Ethereum than on Bitcoin, but even then it was like pretty clear, you know, like all of this um all of all of the like craziness and and like weirdness of like the 2017 bubble, like uh so much of it came from from Ethereum, like from from ICOs and like all these like crazy projects. Um. And yeah, you can, you can like, you know, we can look down on them and whatever. But of course, like so many good things came, came out of that time. Like a lot of the top DeFi projects came out from, from that big boom. So I don't know, I think, I think ICOs get an unfairly bad reputation. I think actually a lot of good came, came out of that boom.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Um. But anyways, I think that, that's what really kind of um captured my attention. Just like all of these like crazy dreams, like crazy idealists, like just like all the, the, the, the people uh building stuff. Or like, just like even, even the scammers, you know, just like, um, like all those stories. I thought it was just like super interesting and just like from um. Like, like from uh going, going back to the tech, uh I thought, you know, okay. So Bitcoin was this, was the first cryptocurrency and it wanted to be peer-to-peer money. And that's what it does. But then Ethereum, like when, when I started to really kind of understand what it does.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  So Ethereum wants to be a programmable version of Bitcoin. And it wants to allow for peer-to-peer everything, not just peer-to-peer money. So that to me just like felt like a fundamental step forward in blockchain history. And that was just like worth documenting. Like I, I thought, you know, even if Ethereum doesn't make it, um, it was still the first blockchain to do this. So it's worth telling the story, like it was worth like spending all, all the time to, to write a book about it.

• 42:47David Hoffman?

  Was there a specific moment that you remember where you were like, oh yeah, I'm all in on this thing now? Like I, I, I let Bitcoin come and go just because it is what it is, but I'm not letting this Ethereum thing come and go. Or this DeFi thing come and go. Was, is there, was there like a moment that you had where like, oh, I, I don't want, I'm, I'm now completely focused on crypto?

• 43:07Speaker 01

  I think it was very gradual. It was just like, okay, so I, I at Bloomberg, I started writing about crypto. And to me, that was just like the most interesting story in markets and finance period, like, you know, um.

• 43:22Speaker 01

  Going going back to any other market would have been extremely boring. So I I I did not want to do that like crypto was my space. Um, and so, yeah, I was like writing about crypto every day and for a while, like I didn't see myself ever leaving Bloomberg like, okay. So I even pitched Bloomberg for I I I wanted to be the crypto team leader and I I I I thought, okay, maybe that's kind of my path. You know, like I build out the crypto team at Bloomberg. Um, they didn't listen to me uh back then and now they're they're building their crypto team.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  I was I I really want to say.

• 43:59David Hoffman?

  Put a pin on that one and come back to that one later, but but keep going.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was, yeah, it was gradual. I was like, started writing about crypto, then um thought it was really, you know, it was really a a good opportunity to write a book on the history of Ethereum. Um, and then like writing The Infinite Machine. I I I really made a a like, I really wanted to immerse myself in Ethereum community. Because I I think what's important about Ethereum is that like it's it's it's its strength, you know, that that it's the Ethereum community is Ethereum's strength, you know, like other other blockchains can claim to have faster tech or whatever.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  But Ethereum is still leading because it has like all these all these people uh uh building on top of it. So I wanted to like see this community, so I went to like all the conferences and and hackathons and um and so that's when I I realized, you know, these guys and and gals are building something real, you know, this is different from ICOs. Like this stuff is actually working and has users and volume. Um, and to me, that was just like incredible, you know, like when I started seeing that in in twenty nineteen, it's like. This actually looks like a like a parallel financial system and we're watching it

• 45:27Speaker 01

  grow from from the ground up, like it's emerging in front of our eyes. And I was like, this is incredible. Like, how is nobody seeing this? Like, this is such a huge story. Um, it's so important. Like, this, this is making like, we're making history. Like, this is, this will change the world. So to me, like, just that, um, when I realized that, I'm like, this is such such a huge opportunity to be here at this time, like, and it just like, didn't make sense to to be a Bloomberg reporter, uh, like, writing about any other market anymore. It's like, no, like, this is huge. Like, this is where I need to be.

• 46:05David Hoffman?

  Who was the first, like, big Ethereum person that you met when you were going to these conferences and getting introduced into the community?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Um, the first, let's see, I mean, my my first, like, interview with an Ethereum co-founder was Charles Hoskins then.

• 46:25David Hoffman?

  This was for the book?

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:28David Hoffman?

  Charles Hoskins was the first. Wow.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I had actually interviewed him for Bloomberg, uh, for like a separate story. I don't know. I don't know why. Like, I don't know why, for some, I I can't remember, for some reason, I I got his contact. Um, and of course, like, at the time, twenty seventeen, reporting, I had, I didn't know, like, the backstory or anything. Um, and Cardano was really like, just still just like a project, um, at the time, like an idea.

• 46:58David Hoffman?

  Legally, it serves as a project, but I'll keep that to myself.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  I didn't say that.

• 47:06David Hoffman?

  That was me.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, I don't know. So obviously, you see Ethereum co-founder. I'm like, oh, like, this guy's a big deal. And so I interviewed him for a story at Bloomberg. And, um, and I remember that story went viral. It was like, He was like, yeah, this thing is a bubble. And at the time, like, you didn't really, like, crypto people didn't really say that, you know, at like, before the, like, the, the peak. And so the, the headline was like Ethereum co-founder says crypto is a bubble. And that story just like went nuts because that's exactly what a lot of Bloomberg readers wanted to hear.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  So anyway, so I had that, that, um, contact eh made with him. And so for like, at the time of the book, I, I interviewed him first to just like eh start like making my initial, initial outline. And then, um, another, uh, uh, uh, an interesting story on how I met one, another Ethereum eh co-founder is how I met eh Amir Tetrit.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  And he's like, one, one of the lesser known uh Ethereum co-founders of the original kind of eight. Um, and I, I don't know, like, I, I think like I had researched him online, like he doesn't have, he's not on so, social media, like he, he, there's not like an official like company or fund or anything like there's like, there was like no, no way of getting to him. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna interview this guy. And then, uh, this was like consensus twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen. It was like, maybe like consensus invest twenty eighteen or something like May, March, I don't, well, something around there.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  And I was getting coffee, um, at like, I don't know, one of like the side booths. And then like this guy comes up to me and just like starts, starts like chatting like, hey, like, uh, how are you finding the conference? I'm like, oh, I'm good, I'm, I'm here reporting, I'm, I'm writing a book on Ethereum. And then the, the guy's friend like starts cracking up. He's like, uh,

• 49:22Speaker 01

  oh, you're gonna wanna speak to this guy. I'm like, why, like, who are you? And, and Amir was like, no, no, no, no, like, no, don't.

• 49:32David Hoffman?

  That's exactly what I would expect his reaction to be.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the friend was like, no, no, really, like, you, you need to talk to this guy. And so I, I pushed and he's like, fine, like, I'm one of the co, or like the friend told me, he's like, no, he's like one of the Ethereum co-founders.

• 49:48David Hoffman?

  Wow, what a lucky line for coffee to be in.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  That was so lucky. Yeah, I don't know.

• 49:55David Hoffman?

  Hey, guys, I hope you're enjoying the conversation with Kami thus far. We're going to get into the second half of the show very shortly here, where we talk about Kami's book, Her Building the Defiant, where the vision for the Defiant came from and where it's going to go. So all of that and more, right after we take a short moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make the show possible. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use DeFi and NFTs. And now it's live and has over 100 projects deployed. Gas fees on Ethereum L1 suck. Too many people want to use Ethereum and it doesn't have enough capacity for all of us. And that's why teams like Arbitrum have been hard at work developing Layer 2 solutions that makes transactions on Ethereum cheap and instant.

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• 52:44David Hoffman?

  I want to go back and you had to pitch someone that they needed to fund this book that you were going to write about Ethereum, right? Like, I've never written a book, so I don't know what this process is like. Can you tell us the story of the genesis of the idea for the Ethereum book and what you had to do to actually turn this idea into reality?

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Um, sure, yeah, that was, um, so how, what happened? I was reading The Spider Network by, um,

• 53:18Speaker 01

  oh my God, I'm blanking on David Erlich, Erlich. I'm not sure how you pronounce, David Erlich? And I looked them up, like, I was reading The Spider Network, and it's exactly the kind of book that I always wanted to write, the kind of like Michael Lewis-type book, you know? It's like, uh, like, nonfiction, but told in a narrative way, so that it seems like a fiction novel. And it was, like, written, like, really perfectly, and like, with so much reporting behind it. And I'm like, this is a book, this is like this, but for Ethereum. And- So I looked him up and saw that he was in New York.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  And uh I asked him if he could get coffee and he graciously said yes. So I was like, yeah, just I I I want to write the kind of book you did. How did he do it? And what what should I do? Um, and he put me in touch with his agent. And um. And then, yeah, just like the email was probably like, hey, I wanna write a book about crypto, thinking about the story of Ethereum. And the agent was like, yeah.

• 54:27David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Do it.

• 54:28David Hoffman?

  Wow.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  Yes, that was that was really, that was really lucky.

• 54:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah, were you surprised that it was immediate? Yes?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was really surprised because I I like obviously Googled like how to like. Write a book and I've I've heard um. You know, like so many horror stories about being rejected by twenty agents and, you know. So, yeah, no, that was I was really lucky to just like reach out to uh to David and and he put me in touch. With uh with my agent and um and then uh my agent was like instantly like into a crypto book. Um. So, yeah, I met with with Dan Mandel and I told him my my idea for this book. Uh, which, you know, from the start was it.

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Was meant to be a non-technical book about the issue of Ethereum, just like the people behind it. The founding story, the like challenges, the founding team and how they overcame that, which is like more like. A people story um about Ethereum. And and he he really liked the idea and so. Uh, I had to write this. Like, very. Like, complicated uh. Book proposal, complicated in the sense of like what it had to include. It it was really like a. Almost like like a like a business model proposal, um like a business pitch. Uh, it was.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Okay, so what what's this book? Why me? Why now? Um, a a sample chapter, like I had to write out a chapter. I had to write out the outline of the book with like chapter by chapter. Um, like summary, like each chapter had to have like uh, a couple of paragraphs summary. So it was just like this huge document, like what other like like the competitive analysis, like what other similar books are there? Um, out there, how did they do? It's just like this whole thing, like it took a like a a while to put together. And then with that, eh, Dan sent that pitch out to eh, a bunch of editorials.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  And and that process was like, it was so nerve wracking. Uh, we had like the tier one uh editorials. So I started like hearing back from Penguin and like, I don't know, like the other big ones. And some of them were like just really mean, like, no, we don't like her writing. Like, and that like really kind of like, oh.

• 57:09David Hoffman?

  Right. Wow, right, right to the heart, wow.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Right to the heart, yeah, or like, no, cryptid dumb. Which, you know, that doesn't hurt that much because you know it's not true, but like, I don't know if like my writing is actually bad, you know, um. So, but finally, you know, um, Harper Collins, like, one of the the bigger ones said yes, like, says they're they're interested. Um, yeah, that was like one of the best days, uh, getting that email, like Harper is interested, um.

• 57:41David Hoffman?

  Did you think there was a chance that uh, no one was gonna say yes?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I mean, I I thought maybe, you know, like, maybe I would, I would, I would still publish the book, like I I would self publish, I I would find that way, like I I I never thought that the book wouldn't get written, like, I I was totally convinced this would get done. But, yeah, I I I didn't know like who would be interested, I was like completely flared to to find that uh, that Harper Collins was, and then um, yeah, then it was like they're they're interested, uh, they made an offer like eh, for um, an advance on on the book. And then the next step was like meeting with with the editor and seeing if they like me.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Uh because apparently like you need to like sell yourself as an author too, so that was. Yeah, um. So, yeah, that was that was a really fun, interesting process, like I I I. I don't know, I I I was like pinching myself throughout that whole thing, just like going down to Harper Collins office in like downtown Manhattan and like. This huge like high-rise and amazing offices and just like meeting this like badass editor of like. She um. His uh my editor was the uh the head of like the business section for Harper Collins.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Um, so that was amazing. And and then like she she was just like really like an amazing editor, like she had like. Really good um comments on like how of the book. That was like one of my my. Like concerns going into the process because I know like I had the experience of Bloomberg editors and they are brutal, like they just like. Take your stuff apart and you know, it's like I'm um constant like revisions and stuff, um so I assumed. It would be the same with with this book and maybe I would have to like make compromises on what I I wanted to say.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Um, but no, Hollis, uh uh my editor was amazing, like. She all of her like input was on point and like when when I said, no, I actually want to keep this, she was like, fine. Uh she, yeah, so I I had I had such a good experience with that. Um. I I will say though, like the the next book I write, which I I hope to write a second book, I really want to do it the um. This intermediated way.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  You know, self publish, advance from the community, NFT cover, whatever. Like, I, I had my, my, my, you know, my, my time with editors and editorials and publishers and it was great. But I think we have the tools now that I don't, I don't need them anymore. Sorry, Paul, I, I really like you, but, you know.

• 1:00:44David Hoffman?

  Well, when you are literally writing about a decentralized financial ecosystem, it makes sense that you can find a way to decentralize in a decentralized manner, finance a book, especially when you already have the record of having this book under your belt as well.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I hope so. I hope that's the case. I've been like thinking about it for, for some time and yeah, I think, I think it would be a really cool project. I, I, as soon as I find the time, which I don't know when, but at some point I'll find the time to do that.

• 1:01:16David Hoffman?

  Yeah, that is the funny thing about working in crypto is no one really seems to have any time anymore.

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  I see. No, good.

• 1:01:23David Hoffman?

  But Kami, I do have to give you all the praise that you deserve because you talk about, you talked about how

• 1:01:30David Hoffman?

  the thing that really set Ethereum apart is its community. And I mean, this was certainly true all the way back to almost perhaps even the genesis of Ethereum, but it's only become more and more true as time has gone on. And I think as a quick little history lesson of people that weren't around in Ethereum in 2017 versus where it is now. In 2017, the developers of Ethereum and the investors in Ethereum, and then also like the whole ICO side of things. Those are all very separate communities. They weren't very coherent at all. And, and slowly over those three years, that community of developers, investors, users, builders

• 1:02:10David Hoffman?

  became more and more into the same like canonical Ethereum community. And I really think it was your book, The Infinite Machine, that we can credit a lot of that too, because for me, an individual who came in in 2017, like, I didn't, I didn't know half of the things that you discovered in, in the book and we needed that. Documentation as like a, hey, this is actually how this happened. Like this happened two years ago. No one's documented it because like this space moves so incredibly fast. So like for me, the reading that book, there was a very much just like a zero to one moment for understanding where we are in Ethereum history. And, and my place in it as somebody that came in in 2017 and where we're going now.

• 1:02:54David Hoffman?

  And so like the books, like that book in particular, I think, did a fantastic job actually allowing the broader Ethereum community to identify itself and really like cohere around a shared vision. And so thank you for, for that invaluable contribution.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Oh, David, thank you so much. No, I really appreciate you saying that. I, I mean, I, I did not think that would be like, that wasn't my, my, my going into writing this book, but I, I'm so glad that's, that's been the case for, for a lot of people. Like I, it's, it's incredible to me to just see a lot of the, the reactions to, to my book. And just like hear from people who, who tell me, you know, the reason I, I got into Ethereum was because of your book, or, or I, I decided that I, I wanted to, um, you know, start building on Ethereum because of your blog, like that, that sort of feedback just, I don't know, is

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  makes like the whole experience so worth it. And it's kind of what, what makes me want to do it again, because like you, you make an actual impact on, on people, like you, you, you really, you know, can, um, can change people's lives a little bit, or just like help them like find, find their way. So yeah, no, thank you.

• 1:04:17David Hoffman?

  Oh, of course. No, you, you deserve all of it. And like, you know, Ethereum will pull people in. It'll, it'll pull like the investors in because of its reasons. It'll pull the tech builders in for its reasons. But if we're going to pull everyone in, like it's going to be through stories. Stories are, stories are how we're going to scale this whole entire thing out to, to literally everyone who can't figure out like, why should I care about this whole Ethereum thing? And like, if they're not investors and they don't know how to code, like what really is it in, in it for them? And I think in order to pitch it to them, like stories have to be like the last mile to get everyone into this whole entire like movement.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  It's so true and you know, I, I think um that's where communicators like, like you uh and, and myself and like so many great uh content creators in this space uh come in. Um and I, I think, you know, Ethereum and, and, and just like blockchain uh uh the blockchain space in general has this kind of disadvantage that because it's, it's tech. Um all of the early people in it are, you know, developers and developers aren't great at, at communicating.

• 1:05:29David Hoffman?

  They speak different. They're, they're a different breed.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, their, their, their thing is like building stuff, so that they're not there. I mean, it's not their job to, to do that. Like they're, you know, they're, they're busy creating this stuff. So um I, I think it's, it's so key to, to have communicators out there representing um you know, ho- like holding up a window for, for people who are not in this space into uh what, what, what um like all the activity and, and the potential uh that, that there is here. So, yeah, I, I, I do believe that uh stories uh and, and like stories about the people is, is what brings people in, but also just like

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  the growing um number of use cases. Uh I think, you know, that's been really interesting to see this year. Uh so before I think like the, the main use case for, for Ethereum and, and crypto was um just like investing and, and financial, right? Like uh buying and selling tokens and trading. Um but this year with, with NFTs.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  We, we really kind of have seen this like new wave of, of users that come in like there's creators now and like musicians and artists leveraging this tech to connect with their audience to monetize their, their their art in ways that they couldn't before. And, and so, you know, it's like, yes, like part of it is communicators amplifying this message and, and communicating what's, what's happening. But, but part of it is just like this, this technology will continue to grow to enable new use cases that will bring

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  different sectors of society in and, you know, it, it was like started with finance. We're seeing artists now and, you know, I think we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll continue seeing other, other use cases and, and other like sectors of society coming to crypto that way.

• 1:07:42David Hoffman?

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:07:45David Hoffman?

  Kami, I, I said earlier that we were gonna stick a pin in something and I, I think, I think it's time to, to go back to that. When did the motivations to start the Defiant come?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Uh, well, that's like pretty much, I mean, that's related to, to what I said before. It's just like writing the infinite machine, being immersed in the Ethereum community and seeing DeFi emerge.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  I just thought, you know, like there's a huge opportunity here to, to tell this story. Nobody was doing it like at, at the time when, when I started the Defiant in 2019. There were no DeFi-focused newsletters. Like I asked around, I was like, how, like, like again, like how is nobody seeing this? Like even like crypto media like Coinbase and, and the block, they weren't covering DeFi. Of course, like mainstream media wasn't covering DeFi. But like, okay, like this is like the biggest revolution in finance.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Like in, I don't know how long and nobody's covering it. Um, and so

• 1:08:50David Hoffman?

  That's what it felt like to be in Ethereum in 2019. Everyone who cared about Ethereum and DeFi was like, am I crazy? Or is like, what is going on here? Why don't people care about this thing?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It was insane. And so, um, you know, I thought I had already, I left Bloomberg in January of 2019 because I wanted to, uh, finish Infinite Machine in the best way possible. And I didn't feel I could do that while at Bloomberg. And I also thought eight years at the same place was enough time. And I just wanted to be, my initial, um, plan was to become an independent journalist and just like freelance and write about crypto and fintech or whatever. But then, yeah, like I started seeing DeFi and like the huge opportunity there was. And so I thought, you know, I would be a freelance writer and have this DeFi newsletter on the side.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  And, um, as soon as I turned in, uh, my first draft of the Infinite Machine, I, um, I sent out the first, uh, DeFi newsletter a week later on June 11th of 2019. Um, and so, yeah, I thought, you know, this, this is going to be something that I do on the side, you know, in the afternoon, like after my freelance work and, and maybe like, I mean, I obviously had seen how other writers were, um, were using Substack to turn on subscriptions. I was like, maybe this will be a good, a good way to like, like supplement my, my freelance income, which I didn't expect to be so, so big.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that was the whole plan with the Defiance. Um, but then obviously like, I, I saw it was, there was a potential for, for something a lot bigger than just like a tiny newsletter.

• 1:10:40David Hoffman?

  Totally. Yeah, yeah. You said when you were at the Defiant, you said you wanted to lead the crypto team, right? Or excuse me, at Bloomberg, you wanted to lead the crypto team and they're like, yeah, no crypto. It's that weird thing. We don't need that. Which is like, the greatest thing about crypto is that like, we generally don't get any help externally as an industry. Like, no one, no one outside of crypto helps us. We have to learn how to help ourselves. And so, the crypto native, we have to make our own institutions. Like Bloomberg's not going to write DeFi stuff on our behalf, and so we need to do it ourselves. And so, like, you know, the media has to come from inside the industry.

• 1:11:21David Hoffman?

  And so, all right, you started the Defiant. It was just going to be a side gig newsletter to, you know, put some excess time into, but that's not what it is now. It's something much larger. So, when, when did you realize that the Defiant could be something much more than a newsletter?

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I started writing it. And first of all, like, just like, keeping up with DeFi was a full-time job, you know? Like, I was spending so much time between, I was like, writing, still writing my book during the day, and then I would start writing the Defiance, like, in the afternoon. And I would go, like, really late into the night, like, to just, like, get it out the next morning, and just, like, keeping up with all the news. Yeah, it was a lot. So, I realized, okay, it's, it's not so easy to, like, run a daily newsletter. And then, you know, it really started to, like, gain a lot of traction, like, people were subscribing.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  I, like, I didn't, I didn't really have any growth strategy or anything, which is like, my own Twitter. I was sharing the Defiance that way, and like, people were sharing it, and it just, like, started to grow. So, I just, like, saw interest there for what I was doing, and people were, just like, kept giving me amazing feedback. Um, and then I decided to test whether, you know, people were willing to pay for that content. So um, I think it was like maybe November, October. Uh, I, I, I set up like the, the paid version of the Defiant, which is basically, you know, I just like, uh, I had two versions and one version had more content um, than the other.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  And, and like, I realized people were willing to pay for the content I was producing. And that was like, that was mind blowing to me because just like putting the Defiant out there under like my own name without the Bloomberg brand, without like a dozen editors like looking after uh, my stories. That was like, that was really scary um, to start out with. And then like to see, not only like I can do this and like, and, and get readers and get people interested, but like people are willing to pay for, for this content. So that was like kind of the, the first sign that, okay, maybe there's something here. Um, and then I started getting um, uh,

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  like E5 projects and companies who wanted to sponsor the newsletter. So I started just like getting emails, being like, hey, like, how much is the sponsorship? And I wasn't offering sponsorships at the time, so like, not like, no, not.

• 1:14:07David Hoffman?

  Was that a conscious choice? As in like, no, I don't want sponsors? Or it's like, oh, I forgot that I could sponsor this?

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:13David Hoffman?

  Like, the second one?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  The second one, yeah. I mean,

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  yeah, uh, like I didn't, I didn't think about it. Um, and and at first it was also like, I wonder if like having sponsors will um, you know, affect like my journalism, like that was also a concern. So I, I was like, I wasn't sure about the whole like sponsorship thing, but at, like, at least I knew that people were interested in, in paying for the Defiant, like paying to be featured, um, paying to read it. So I realized, okay, there's, there's a business here. And I decided to go all in and, you know, forget about freelancing. And uh, yeah, just like, make sure like that I could build it out into something bigger.

• 1:15:03David Hoffman?

  Where'd the name Defiant come from?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think it was like looking for variations of DeFi. Yeah, so like, I think I have, I have the notebook where I put like down like all the different names. Like DeFi Weekly, DeFi Daily, DeFi Standard, whatever. But then like, um, and, and my husband Chris helped me out with, with the names. I, I need to give him credit for that. We were both like thinking about, I think like on a plane. I didn't like planes are such good, good places to like brainstorm stuff like

• 1:15:42David Hoffman?

  What else are you gonna do?

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  You really can focus, yeah. So I think it was on a plane that we were like, was like going over this notebook of, of names. And then I thought, you know, I, I don't want it to be so obvious, like DeFi something. Um, so it was like with, with that idea in mind, like I wanted like, yeah, the sense of like defining, um, but I not have like, like the actual name DeFi and yeah.

• 1:16:09David Hoffman?

  But not, not actually DeFi, but close enough?

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Close enough, yeah.

• 1:16:13David Hoffman?

  I, I remember in a, it might've been 2018, so this might've been settled by then, but I definitely think it went into 2019. There was a, a time where me, Eric Connor, Ryan, Sean Adams, we were like, DeFi is a shitty name, like OpenFi, Open Finance is better. Were you, were you watching us have that, that, those conversations on Twitter? And you got, I, I hope these guys like stop doing this.

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  I think so, I think so, but, um, I know, yeah, I don't know if it's a great name. I, but whatever, you know, I think like it is what it is, like

• 1:16:48David Hoffman?

  At this point, at this point, DeFi is absolutely stuck, yeah. And the Define is a fantastic name. It, it exudes so much of crypto values in a single word, which I think is fantastic.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Thank you. Yeah, no, I, I really love it. And then like, yeah, I designed the logo on, on Canva myself. So I need to get like an actual designer.

• 1:17:08David Hoffman?

  No, this is the same thing at Bankless. I just, I, I picked out the font, drew a red line under the word Bankless and then boom, that's been our, our logo since day one.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  And it works, it's awesome.

• 1:17:20David Hoffman?

  Okay, so, uh, when did you hire your first employee at the Defiant? And who was that?

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Ah, good question. Um, well, hmm, so employee different from contributor, right? So I, I had-

• 1:17:35David Hoffman?

  Paid, paid labor. Who was the first paid labor? Yeah.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Uh, who was it?

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  You know, it, it might have been Lucas, who's at Ventless now.

• 1:17:49David Hoffman?

  Oh, no way, really?

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Seriously, I think so.

• 1:17:51David Hoffman?

  Oh, that's funny.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, I don't know if he was the first, he was definitely one of the first. There was also, um, Sebastian Saldas, I don't know how to say it in, in English. About this guy, Seba, from Argentina, he was also writing for the Defiant, and then Cooper.

• 1:18:09David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Uh, he was also one of the first writers. So yeah, I had kind of that plan. And those were the first contributors.

• 1:18:18David Hoffman?

  When did the vision change from just a newsletter that you write, realize that you can monetize to a much more grand media company? Was there, was there ever an like aha moment, or was that just kind of a slow transition?

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It was also a slow transition. It was, um, like, okay, I had the daily newsletter. Then I decided I wanted to have, um, a weekly interview. And with the weekly interview, I was already recording it, so I was like, might as well have a podcast. So that happened. And then Robin, uh, reached out because, uh, he had interviewed me for a documentary while he was at Harmony. And he said, "We are looking to like reach the DeFi audience. So can I make videos for the Defiant and like Harmony appears as a sponsor? Uh, but like, we just like make videos about DeFi." I'm like, "As long as like, we don't have to talk about Harmony, that's fine."

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Like, um, and so he started, uh, like, he started the Defiance YouTube channel. Um, at first, just like doing this, like, kind of joint partnership with Harmony. And, and then I brought him on, uh, full time. Um, and so, yeah, that was like, suddenly I had a lot of content because uh I had a bunch of contributors writing stories for the newsletter, I had the podcasts and I had the videos. Um, and so it just like, it didn't make sense. Like, the Defiant just like started to look like, like more of like a, like a media company than a newsletter.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Because we had like all this, like these different types of content. Um, and it just like didn't fit in the newsletter anymore. Like it didn't make sense to have like all those stories. It just like was getting too like un- unwieldy. So, um, so I, I made a WordPress uh website. And together with, with a designer. And I just started like, you know, publishing on the website primarily. And then the newsletter was uh the summary of things I had done um elsewhere. Um, and with that, then like when, when all those pieces started uh to, to emerge. Then it's like, I started to have like, like a bigger vision uh for the Defiant.

• 1:20:43Speaker 01

  This was, yeah, probably um early last, last year. Um, I started to see, you know, there's, there's something bigger here. Um, and, you know, with my background at Bloomberg. To me, information is content and data. Like, you, you know, it's like you, you need uh both of them. Because, you know, it's like, you, you, you, you tell stories, um, you, you write and, you know, you, you communicate stories.

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Uh, but you also need to provide the data for people to, um, you know, see, see what's happening in the market and on chain themselves.

• 1:21:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, with, without the data, it's just subjective stories, which is what you wanted to get away from way back when.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Um, and I thought, you know, nobody's doing the data uh part right. You know, like. I I think the DeFi data space is is really fragmented. Um, I think, you know, that you have like different trackers and websites doing very specific things. But you don't have like one place to get all of the DeFi data, DeFi data that you you could need. Um, and you know, there's also. You you just like can't get the same user experience you can with a Bloomberg terminal. So I was just like really missing that um.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  That ability of just like this like magical black box that I described earlier, you know, like. Okay, you you get to this place, you you start typing up something and it comes up and you can chart it and compare it with other other things and other metrics. You just don't have that um and it's so needed, so. Um, yeah, I decided, you know, this is what the define should be. It should be the Bloomberg of DeFi, so we become the most trusted uh like journalistic news source or DeFi. And we provide the data to track and and analyze the space. Um, and that's kind of when the big vision formed and it became clear to me, this is what I need to do.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Like, this is the the big vision and this is what's like really needed uh in this space.

• 1:23:04David Hoffman?

  So the the you recently launched that that data platform, so this just uh is almost like going back to what we were saying at the very beginning, where like. Who you are seems to be a very logical combination of like all the components of your family. It's this also seems to be that what the the defiant turning is turning into it seems to be a logic, a very logical conclusion of your history as a journalist, right? Like, lo- love journalism, but you love journalism even more when it's grounded in objective facts that no one can argue with, right? Uh, and and so like the defiant is turning into this one, one and a half. One half story, one half information, one half data to back that up.

• 1:23:44David Hoffman?

  And you're doing that all in-house and so you are trying to be like, um, yeah, both both the. Story, the story behind the data and then also the data simultaneously in all the same spots.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we, we, we have the platform to, to get all the insights that you need from, from DeFi. And we have the writers to like, take those insights and put it into words and into context and, and tell those stories.

• 1:24:15David Hoffman?

  Do you, do you, um, where, where does the, where does narrative come into this or does it at all? Like more subjective, more, um, uh, you know, yeah, more, more subjective, less concrete, like visions of like, cause everyone has like visions of what the future of crypto will be, right? Like it's completely unwritten, you know, Bitcoin's only, only 12 years old, but you know, Ethereum's only six years old. DeFi is only two and a half years old. So there's a bunch of competing narratives as to what the future of DeFi looks like. Where, where does, where does narrative fit into, into the Defiant or does it at all?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  No, I think that's banquet job.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Seriously. Yeah, no, I think, um, I think the Defiance, you know, there is some level of subjectiveness. Like, so our editorial point of view is that DeFi is the future, you know, like we, we believe in Web three. We believe the world will be increasingly decentralized. Uh, we believe DeFi will become finance. But, um, how that happens, on what chain, you know, who wins, whatever, like all of that. We leave it to our readers to, our job is to report in the space objectively. And, you know, to, to tell the stories that are, that are happening in the way that, that they're happening in a very kind of

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  data-backed way. Um, and, and the reader can decide for themselves what, what they think is right or wrong, or, you know, where they want to trade or, or, or what, you know, they can make their own, uh, their own narrative. So of course there's like, there's space for, for opinion and we do have, uh, you know, uh, guest writers and we have op-eds. And, and I think Robin is, is, uh, pretty opinionated in, in his coverage. Um. So there, there's room for that, but I don't think the, I mean, the, the main purpose of, of the Defiant isn't that, isn't to, to like, deliver a, a, like a shaped narrative, but it's to give

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  people the tools to discover, you know, what their own narrative is, to make, to make up their own mind.

• 1:26:33David Hoffman?

  I, I, I love that answer. That, that's, that's fantastic. Kami, if, uh, the Defiant is maximally successful, what does it look like in five years?

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Okay, so, um, I would, I would love for, for the Defiant to be, uh, you know, the, the place where people can find, um, all of the, well, let's see. I want the Defiant to be the most trusted, uh, source of information for Defiant. Um, I wanted to illuminate the space, uh, for, for people just like, just coming in. So like, it's for it to be an education, uh, source, uh, for newcomers and for it to be a very powerful tool, tool for insiders as well. Um, but I also want to make a change in, in journalism in general. So,

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  you know, of course, um, being in, in Web three, uh, we are looking, uh, for ways, we're looking at how, uh, media looks like in, in Web three. So you, you guys at Bankless have done an amazing job in decentralizing, uh, Bankless. Um, I'm also looking at, you know, how that looks like for, for like a news company, for a media company. Because, you know, I, I do want to open up, uh, the Defiant, um, and I want to do it in a way that stays true to our mission of, of providing like trusted information. So, you know, uh, there, there's like, it, it is, it is a bit of a challenge there because you need to retain some level of control

• 1:28:12Speaker 01

  to have that kind of just like standards and, and like, uh, quality for, for like news. Um. But I think I think there's a way to do that in in a more decentralized way. So, yeah, um, I want I want the defined to be the most trusted information source for DeFi. And I also want wanted to just like push boundaries on of what media looks like in Web three. And what the the ultimate goal that I that I want the Defiant um to help shape is is just like a better version of journalism. Like, what if, like, the Web three media mo- model improves uh like traditional journalism?

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, right, right now investigative journalism is basically dead. What if we can reshape media in a way that we can find new funding mechanisms and and and, you know, new ways to organize community? So that we we can create, uh, we can revive investigative journalism. Um, and and we can, what if this like new media model uh makes it so that, you know, the the the bigger stories come from just like a a Web Web three native uh community? Um, so that's that's kind of the ambition that's that's still kind of not fully formed, but that's really exciting and and inspiring for for me.

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  And like where we're I'd want to take the define going forward.

• 1:29:45David Hoffman?

  Well, we all know that this whole Web three phenomenon is a place to tinker with incentives. And where uh Web two, generally all incentives and alignments is kindly broken down. And like in the world of journalism, it's exactly what you said, where there's no more investigative journalism. There's only there's only stories and narratives left uh in in the Web two world, in my opinion. Um, and and so that that is a very bullish uh outlook for the world of of of media. And I I definitely hope that that something definitely fulfills this vision of re-orchestrating uh incentives with regards to to journalism.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  I think we have such a big opportunity here. Like, I think I think we're all gonna make it.

• 1:30:29David Hoffman?

  Nice, nice. Um, that's just a last few quick questions. Um, what's it like to be in crypto in New York?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Oh, it's awesome. Um, yeah, uh, actually, like, I, I, um, I, I'm launching this coworking space in, in Brooklyn. Um, so eh, it's cool. Like, there's like, uh, lots of projects and people, um, based here. Um, I think, you know, the, the city is coming alive again with, with meetups and, and parties and, um, just like, you know, just random meetings, uh, that I think it's, it's like, when, in the middle of the pandemic, we kind of forgot how useful those things were. It's like, okay, like, we can do everything, uh, from, from our apartment on Zoom.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  But like, tho- those, like, just like random conversations and meetings and, and meetups are, you know, you can't really replace them. So it's, it's good to be in a city that just like has that, uh, community and, uh, um, and those opportunities. So that's, that's something I want to enable in, uh, the Defiant coworking space, uh, colony. So.

• 1:31:41David Hoffman?

  Well, I, I missed going to your, uh, office launch event last time I was in New York. But maybe I will be able to see you for NFT NYC?

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you should drop by.

• 1:31:51David Hoffman?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I'd love to have you here. And I think we're, we're doing, there's going to be like an NFT scavenger hunt.

• 1:31:59David Hoffman?

  I don't know what that means, but that sounds like a ton of fun.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I think one of the spots will be, uh, the Defiant office. So you can also get an NFT out of, out of your trip.

• 1:32:08David Hoffman?

  Awesome. Well, we all love NFTs. Uh, Kami, one, one last question for you. Are you a pessimist or an optimist?

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely an optimist. Yeah.

• 1:32:17David Hoffman?

  What about the world makes you optimistic?

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Hey, look at where, like, look at where we're, what we're doing. Like, we're, we're changing the world. We're changing finance. We're changing, you know, how people organize. Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm hugely optimistic that, um,

• 1:32:37Speaker 01

  That this this technology is going to change things for the better. Like, I just think it's inherently better, more efficient. It's, you know, literally cuts out intermediaries, so makes things faster and better. So at its core, it's better tech. And so that means that we have the opportunity of improving how things work. I think that's hugely bullish and makes me super optimistic about the future. And also just very grateful to be to be part of it, to be here.

• 1:33:14David Hoffman?

  Well, Kami, I'm grateful for you coming on and spending an hour and a half with me. So thank you for coming on Layer Zero.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Oh, it was it was my pleasure. Again, like, really enjoyed this conversation, really unique questions. So thank you so much for having me.

• 1:33:27David Hoffman?

  Cheers. Hey, we hope you enjoyed the video. If you did, head over to Bankless HQ right now to develop your crypto investing skills and learn how to free yourself from banks and gain your financial independence. We recommend joining our daily newsletter, podcasts and community as a Bankless Premium subscriber to get the most out of your Bankless experience. You'll get access to our market analysis, our alpha leaks and exclusive content, and even the Bankless token for airdrops, raffles and unlocks. If you're interested in crypto, the Bankless community is where you want to be. Click the link in the description to become a Bankless Premium subscriber today. Also, don't forget to subscribe to the channel for in-depth interviews with industry leaders,

• 1:34:09David Hoffman?

  Ask Me Anythings and weekly rollups where we summarize the week in crypto and other fantastic content. Thanks, everyone, for watching and being on the journey as we build out the Bankless Nation.