Madonna: Part 2 with Patrik Sandberg

Yasi is joined by writer and Bandsplain MVP Patrik Sandberg for Part 2 of the Madonna epic. This chapter follows Madonna from 'Like a Prayer' through 'Bedtime Stories' as she alchemizes religion, sex, fashion, and controversy into one of the most fascinating and powerful runs in pop music history. They talk about the history of “Vogue,” the groundbreaking Pepsi commercial, her major leap with 'Erotica,' the much-discussed 'Sex' book, and, of course, the backlash and what it meant for her creativity. Plus: the reinventions, the Cher beef, her acting career, all the incredible music and imagery of this period, and so, so much more. Episode PlaylistListen to the Madonna: Part 2 playlist here. CREDITS:Host: Yasi Salek @yasisalekGuest: Patrik Sandberg @patriksandbergProducer: Rob SundermannEditor: Adrian BridgesAdditional Production Supervision: Justin SaylesTheme Song: Bethany Cosentino Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:35Speaker 01

  What's with this band anyway? I don't get it, can you please explain? Wait, like, Bandplain? Never heard this band in my life. Oh, you haven't? I'd love that. Really? Why? Yeah, I love this song, oh, I don't know that one. Bandplain, Bandplain, Bandplain. I really hate this band! Whatever, I'm their biggest fan. Bandplain, Bandplain, Bandplain, Bandplain.

• 1:15Yasi Salek?

  Hello and welcome to Bandplain. I am your host, Yasi Salek. This is a show where I invite an expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Today's episode is part two about maybe the most iconic artist of all, Madonna. If you've never heard Madonna, A, I don't know why you're here, but B, life is absolutely a mystery, babe.

• 1:47Yasi Salek?

  You guys, my guest today, repeat Bandplain-er. Here she comes, little Suzie homemaker, Patrick Sandberg.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:57Yasi Salek?

  Welcome to the program. Welcome back, shall I say?

• 2:00Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'm ready to go Patrick Bateman mode.

• 2:03Yasi Salek?

  Are you ready to express yourself and not repress yourself? Because that's all I ask.

• 2:07Speaker 03

  I think when "Like a Prayer" came out in 89, Madonna really came into her own commercially and artistically.

• 2:13Yasi Salek?

  So you have your full Ken Burns-esque takes ready to go. I love it.

• 2:17Speaker 03

  This is like I'm getting the nail gun ready to murder my secretary.

• 2:23Yasi Salek?

  All right, you guys, before we dive in, I just want to once again thank all of the resources that I used to research this episode. And this might not be a complete list because there's also a bunch of Instagram accounts that I'm not going to remember, but today in Madonna history, Madonnapedia, Madonna Underground, Madonna Tribe, the Inside the Groove Podcast.

• 2:42Speaker 03

  Stop.

• 2:42Yasi Salek?

  The Encyclopedia Madonna.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Encyclopedia Madonna is legendary.

• 2:46Yasi Salek?

  So major. Actually, we had it.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Weebo Girl.

• 2:48Yasi Salek?

  On the table. Weebo Girl Instagram, incredible. One of my favorites. Madonna Burnett Instagram. Really great. And obviously, the 2023 Mary Gabriel Madonna biography, which was like Warren piece of Madonna's life. That's it. Just wanted to.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  That's it?

• 3:05Yasi Salek?

  Give a shout out. All right, before we dive in, Patrick.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 3:10Yasi Salek?

  Should we do a quick TLDR up until now?

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:14Yasi Salek?

  Or, actually.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Who's that girl?

• 3:16Yasi Salek?

  Who is that girl? Should we actually start with your entree into being a Madonna fan?

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, like in life?

• 3:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  Well, on the day that I was born.

• 3:30Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  The day that.

• 3:32Yasi Salek?

  Back to the beginning.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, let's start at the very beginning. The day that I was born, when I came into this world, the number one record on the Billboard charts was Like a Version.

• 3:41Yasi Salek?

  Incredible.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  The Like a Version album was number one. So I like to think that I was just hearing Madonna like from the second that I appeared, that she was playing in the hospitals, like on, you know, in the cafeteria speakers or, or what have you.

• 3:57Yasi Salek?

  I don't know if it was hospital friendly music at that time, but.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  You know?

• 4:01Yasi Salek?

  Maybe like a cool nurse who smoked cigs was listening to it on her Walkman.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess times have changed. Like today, it would be playing at CBS, but maybe it's not that bad.

• 4:10Yasi Salek?

  It's like on K-811 oldie station, but now is different than then.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Like my earliest MTV memory as like a toddler, I do remember seeing Boy George.

• 4:25Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Um, on TV and being like, who is that? You know? And then my uncle or someone being like, that's a dude. And it just blowing my mind as like a little child, because I thought it was a beautiful woman.

• 4:38Yasi Salek?

  Was it Karma Chameleon? Would that have been the?

• 4:40Speaker 03

  I think it was Do You Really Want to Hurt Me? Because I remember being like, why is she so sad? And my uncle was like, that's not a she. And I was like, what? So I do remember that. I think Madonna was just always there.

• 4:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  You know, in the culture. So it was not, it was similar to like Whitney Houston, probably in the eighties. All over TV, all over the radio. And so she just was like a part of life. I never questioned it.

• 5:07Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 5:07Speaker 03

  And then I think the turning point for me when I got into Madonna, which we'll cover in, in these years that we're talking about, is when she, the Blonde Ambition Tour did an HBO concert special.

• 5:22Yasi Salek?

  Yes. Not to be confused with Truth or Dare, completely separate thing.

• 5:25Speaker 03

  Totally separate. Confusing in my like younger mind though, when I saw Truth or Dare later when I was much older, but we were on vacation in Lake Tahoe. It was like my family, my parents, friends, their kids. It was like a bunch of kids, a bunch of adults and we, it was like a snowstorm. We were just channel flipping and the cabin we were staying at had HBO. We didn't, I didn't grow up with HBO. Okay. I wasn't rich.

• 5:51Yasi Salek?

  HBO was kind of like a luxury.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was like, it was just a thing that like rich kids had HBO, like we couldn't afford it. But the cabin we were staying at in Tahoe had HBO and we flipped past it and this concert special was on and my older sister was really into Madonna. And it was like, yay, like, oh my God. And then it was like really raunchy. And so my mom like turned it off and was like, you guys aren't allowed to watch that. Like you need to go to bed. And so we went upstairs. But my bedroom had a TV in it and we figured out that we could watch it on that TV. So we like barricaded the door and we all watched the concert special. And you know, we talked about this when I came on talking about Hole.

• 6:33Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  When I was a kid, like anything my mom didn't want me doing, I was just like.

• 6:38Yasi Salek?

  You were about that life.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  Yes. It became like now nothing will ever stop me.

• 6:42Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  So when she turned off the Madonna special, I was like, oh, Madonna's cool. I didn't realize.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Now I get it.

• 6:50Yasi Salek?

  Now you're, now I'm deeply invested.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  I feel the appeal.

• 6:53Yasi Salek?

  Do you remember like the first Madonna album that you like purchased with your own money or like, you know, procured for yourself because you were like, oh, this is like my thing?

• 7:03Speaker 03

  I don't think I ever bought a Madonna album.

• 7:05Yasi Salek?

  Really?

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Because my sister bought them.

• 7:07Yasi Salek?

  Right, so you already had access.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  So I would steal hers.

• 7:09Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Like, the one that was like in our house that was like the, the like pass around party bottom of compact discs was the Immaculate Collection.

• 7:19Yasi Salek?

  Of course, yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  So that was sort of like similar period. It was like there was the HBO concert film.

• 7:25Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Immaculate Collection came out and it was, to me, that was like my first Madonna album, even though it's not an album.

• 7:33Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  It like actually kind of took me through every album.

• 7:36Yasi Salek?

  Right. It was like a great primer.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  And if you didn't know about her previous albums or what came from where, because you're literally a child, Immaculate Collection, it was just like every song is a smash. You're like, this is the greatest.

• 7:47Yasi Salek?

  No skips.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Pop star of all time.

• 7:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Yeah. Immaculate Collection was very big in our house, too. I said it on the other episode, but my mom was like a huge Madonna fan, so I don't, I also don't remember a time, there was like no pre Madonna in my brain. It was just always Madonna. And like, my mom loved like Dress You Up and all these kind of like deeper cuts. And so we would tape the videos off VH1 and MTV with like a, you know, VHS tape and watch them over and over. It was a big deal. Okay. Well, the TLDR up till now that we covered in episode one, we did Madonna's upbringing, her move to New York, her post-punk new wave band girl past.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 8:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 03

  Careful with that. Well, I guess it's true.

• 8:30Yasi Salek?

  It's totally true. Babe, she was in, she was in a band.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  I'm a post-punk gatekeeper.

• 8:36Yasi Salek?

  She was in a band with the two dudes from Swans. What's more post-punk than that? And dated Michael Gira.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  All right, fine.

• 8:42Yasi Salek?

  But you put some respect on my, on my girl's name. And then her breaking into the biz famously. She's gone on two world tours, the Virgin Tour and the Who's That Girl Tour. Three film roles, real film roles, Desperately Seeking Susan, Shanghai Surprise, and Who's That Girl? And she has gotten to married to Sean Penn and filed for divorce and rescinded the filing. And now we're at the end of 1987. That's where we're starting.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Drama, adventure, what's not to love? Just let me, let me backpedal on the post punk thing really quickly.

• 9:15Yasi Salek?

  Good. I think you should because you're wrong.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  I am wrong and I immediately knew it. And here's the thing about it and real, real goths know this. If you go, like in New York, I would go to the Pyramid Bar all the time. If you go to these like old eighties goth clubs where they play like a lot of.

• 9:40Yasi Salek?

  Chameleons or something?

• 9:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, but even like, I don't know, like I would go dancing at the Pyramid Club in the basement. And it would be like, they would play insane, like industrial, like goth music, but they also, it was like a lot of Nine Inch Nails. It was a lot of like Alien Sex Fiend.

• 9:55Yasi Salek?

  Sure, sure.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Like Batcave bands, like things like that. Susie and the Banshees, like New Order, Joy Division. Like all these clubs also play Madonna. And it's like, they don't, they don't, they don't dip into motherfucking Debbie Gibson. Okay? It's like.

• 10:12Yasi Salek?

  There's anybody anymore.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  I know, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, or Cyndi Lauper. It's like, or, or whoever, like. These aren't like eighties clubs.

• 10:21Yasi Salek?

  Right, right.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  But there is like a fine line and like Madonna makes it over the line.

• 10:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. I mean, again, like if you listen to those Emmy and the Emmys songs, it's unmistakably like. Some songs sound like The Talking Heads, some sounds, some songs sound like The Pretenders. Like it's, it's, it's in that vein. Also, the thing I forgot to mention on the first episode, but I'll just use it here, that Madonna opened for The Smiths at Danzitaria. Johnny Marr told my friend Chloe that who's like, and I was like, you know what? This been done, she fucking done it all.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  She and Morrissey should link up again.

• 10:57Yasi Salek?

  Honestly, where's, maybe he has a feature on the new album.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  How the tables have turned, who would open for who now?

• 11:03Yasi Salek?

  This is gonna come out later, and so if Morrissey does have a feature on the new album, just know that I predicted it with my psychicness. But I kinda don't think it.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  I doubt, I doubt that.

• 11:12Yasi Salek?

  Okay, before we fully dive in, cuz I think this is, you know, we, we locked in on it with Mel Ottenberg in the first episode, but her first major aesthetic transition was in the Papa Don't Preach video. It, that was the first one of her, like.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  Visually?

• 11:31Yasi Salek?

  Visually, because she chopped her hair into that, like, bleached, like, Gene Seberg. You know, it was like the first, like, going from that sort of, like, boy toy belts and the more, like, highlight blonde hair and the curls and whatever, to this, like, new look. That was like her first big, like, here's a new, here's a new look. And obviously, we're gonna go through several more here. She had this quote later in 1998 in the LA Times, and she said, "I think that for many years now, people have been consumed with me, choices I've made personally versus my artistic contributions. It's like people act as if I'm the first one who tried to use image in rock and roll. When is it new for people to create a strong image? What about Mick Jagger, Prince?" And you can go on and on. Besides, I feel that 50% of that image is what I put into it, and the rest

• 12:16Yasi Salek?

  is what others put into it.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 12:20Yasi Salek?

  It's good, I just wanted to, cuz people did get very preoccupied with her changing her look.

• 12:27Speaker 03

  I'm rolling my eyes because she knew what she was saying, she knew what she was doing. Some people are preoccupied with her look because she's gorgeous.

• 12:33Yasi Salek?

  Well, of course.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  She's like, why is everyone so obsessed with the way I look?

• 12:38Yasi Salek?

  But again, unfortunately, my pink fussy hat is descending from the ceiling onto my hat like a dunce cap. But I will say, they don't speak about it the same way with David Bowie. They were like, astonishing artistry, the change of look from the thin wet, you know? When we talk about Madonna, they talk about it as if it's very superficial, you know, as it's, it's almost an indictment. And I think that is really interesting. Okay, anyways, we'll get into it. All right, 1987. It's November 16th, and we're putting out our first remix album. It's called You Can Dance.

• 13:12Speaker 03

  Yes, you can.

• 13:14Yasi Salek?

  I mean, I obviously, we talked about this on text the other day that I was like, I would like for my birthday party to just be like, a DJ plays only my favorite Madonna remixes and I drink champagne and eat Taco Bell. So I love that, you know, we're already starting strong with the remix album. My only thing that I need to say is that the first song on here, which is a new song called Spotlight, is absolutely giving, "We Have Holiday at Home."

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Spotlight.

• 13:38Yasi Salek?

  I don't know why we put that on here.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  Everybody is a star.

• 13:41Yasi Salek?

  Everybody is a star.

• 13:41Speaker 03

  I tend to agree.

• 13:43Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  Um, it definitely feels like a B-side that was left over from True Blue.

• 13:47Yasi Salek?

  And it's obvious, she does this with all of her like releases that are compilations. She makes sure to include at least one new, one, if not two, new compositions. But do you have thoughts on the You Can Dance remix album?

• 14:01Speaker 03

  It's interesting because I think my obsession with like Madonna remixes in general probably started in like 2010 or something. And it's like more of like a gay thing. It's more like you're going to the beach in the Fire Island Pines with the JBL speaker and you're putting on just Madonna remixes.

• 14:24Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  I didn't like get into the You Can Dance remix album as an album.

• 14:28Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  It kind of predated my like Madonna awareness. And then later on with all the remixes, they're like playlisted and they're streaming and it's all that.

• 14:38Yasi Salek?

  And you don't have really strong feelings about remixes and their favorite ones.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:44Yasi Salek?

  And their non-favorite ones.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  And there's a ton that are not on streaming.

• 14:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Like you have to go digging for them. There's like zip files you can download.

• 14:51Yasi Salek?

  Well, because they're not official.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, tons of unofficial ones.

• 14:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  But listening to it as a full album in preparation for this, I'm obsessed with it.

• 15:01Yasi Salek?

  It's great.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  And a lot of my favorite remixes are on it.

• 15:03Yasi Salek?

  Totally. It's, it's great. I mean, I think the first pivotal, and I don't want to misspeak because I know people like some DJ at home is going to be like, you know, fuck you bitch.

• 15:13Yasi Salek?

  To me, the first like meaningful pivotal remix moment is going to be when we get to express yourself, obviously. But, um, and not that there aren't good ones before, but like the one that is like, oh shit, like actually this remix. Has overtaken the original and is now considered the official, you know?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Well, there's a lot of funny things that happen too, where like some of the music videos are not the album track, they are actually a remix and things like that. And so like, if you were, if you were falling in love with Madonna, or even if you didn't like Madonna, but if you were seeing Madonna on MTV, you might think of the remix track is the track.

• 15:47Yasi Salek?

  Album track, totally.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  I wanted to talk about Shep Pettibone quickly.

• 15:51Yasi Salek?

  Sure, before we, before we dive in, yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, which is that like, he appears on this remix record a few times. He first worked with Madonna on a remix for True Blue on a single release. I just wanted to point him out because he will come back later as a main character.

• 16:10Yasi Salek?

  Totally. We, we definitely talk about him a bit in the first episode because he was, I mean, he becomes obviously very important in our episode, but he, he worked with Afrika Bambaatah, and he was a DJ at the R and B station WBLS, which is the first station ever to play Madonna. So he's like an old, long-term person in this, in this orbit.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  He's seen as like a godfather of like New Jersey club music. And he also came up doing mega mixes for Kiss FM in New York. And that was how he ended up doing all these remixes for Janet Jackson, George Michael, Madonna, Kathy Dennis, Lisa Lisa.

• 16:54Yasi Salek?

  People don't remember Kathy Dennis, but I need to understand if you were.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Who are these people?

• 16:59Yasi Salek?

  If you were me in the eighties, you were big time Kathy Dennis.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  Still have, Kathy Dennis maybe once a day makes it through.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  But also tons of remixes later on for New Order, the Pet Shop Boys.

• 17:13Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 03

  He sort of is like. To me, like, he is the 80s. Like, if you could give someone a better compliment, I don't know what that would be.

• 17:21Yasi Salek?

  But then also, he, again, he plays a big part in our episode, which is largely the 90s. You know, I mean, obviously, we're gonna talk, we're starting with, like, A Prayer as the big release. But, big chunk of this is the 90s, and Shep Pettybone has a lot to do with this sound.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  I would, he's on gay Mount Rushmore, so.

• 17:41Yasi Salek?

  I feel like they don't name people that anymore, you know, like, well, I don't, does anyone have cool names like this anymore?

• 17:47Speaker 03

  Shep?

• 17:47Yasi Salek?

  I know that's a nickname, but it's Shep Pettybone? Okay, that's a fucking amazing name.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  He also, um, he bought the Empress.

• 17:55Yasi Salek?

  That's a Thomas Pynchon name, huh?

• 17:57Speaker 03

  The Empress Hotel in Asbury Park, New Jersey, where I like to go stay sometimes. It's giving, like, ironic, elevated Holiday Inn vibes. It's like, very, like, beachy, gay, like, he, there's a nightclub in there called The Paradise that he owns, plays the best music. If you ever wanna go to, if you ever wanna fun weekend, go to Asbury Park, New Jersey.

• 18:21Yasi Salek?

  And stay in Shep Pettybone's hotel.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Stay at the Empress, stay at Shep Pettybone's hotel. Anyway, we're on Shep watch.

• 18:27Yasi Salek?

  We're on Shep watch, Ben. Okay, it's 1988 now, January. She starts filming another movie, it's called Bloodhounds of Broadway, um, with the director Howard Brookner, who had also been a Paradise Garage regular and part of Andy Warhol's circle. So, another kind of old friend from the crowd. Um, he had made a documentary about William Burroughs that Madonna loved, so she was, like, very into his work and wanted to be in it. I, I don't know the exact timeline, but I'm pretty sure he was sick with AIDS almost the entire making of the film. And actually, I think passed away before the film, not before it was finished, but before it came out. So he got to see it to the finish line, but didn't get to see it come out. So after she wraps filming that, which, we can talk about a little of the film, did you watch it?

• 19:09Speaker 03

  I didn't watch it, but she looks amazing.

• 19:11Yasi Salek?

  She looks incredible. It's based on, um, a group of short stories, and then they're, like, intertwined, it's in the 20s. I couldn't really make heads or tails of it, but.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  Madonna loves the 20s.

• 19:25Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, and she, and it works for her.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  Louis Brooks, she's giving this sort of, like, Bob, brunette Bob.

• 19:31Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Flapper.

• 19:33Yasi Salek?

  She becomes good friend with Jennifer Grey through that, who becomes kind of part of her, uh, friend group. Um, yeah, I mean, like, if you have nothing else to do, watch it. Okay, then she starts rehearsing for her next project. Appearing in your favorite play.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  Oh my god, I forgot to bring it.

• 19:48Yasi Salek?

  Forgot to bring your book, David, is it Mamet?

• 19:51Speaker 03

  Mamet.

• 19:51Yasi Salek?

  David Mamet's Speed the Plow, directed by Gregory Mosher. His first major stage work since Glengarry Glen Ross.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Incredible. She originated the role.

• 20:02Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it was a critique of Hollywood. She accidentally finds her way into a bunch of critiques of Hollywood, which was interesting. I don't know this play. I'm sorry, I didn't have time in my, in my month and a half of research to also read the David Mamet play. Do you want to tell us a little bit what it's about?

• 20:19Speaker 03

  It's a critique of Hollywood. She plays a secretary to a Hollywood producer. It's like a lot of fast talking. It's sort of poking at the hypocrisies of the industry. It's fun.

• 20:31Yasi Salek?

  Okay, I love that the male leads were my fucking guy, my dog, Joe Montegna.

• 20:38Speaker 03

  Who she would later appear with in Body of Evidence.

• 20:42Yasi Salek?

  A movie that we love, also who was on Criminal Minds, a show I love.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  And Ron Silver, who I love.

• 20:48Yasi Salek?

  Love Ron Silver. Again, Ron Silver is one of those things where I'm like, we used to be a proper country where this was a lead actor. It's a testament to her acting talent that she could be in league with these actors in a play, you know? You can't hide too much.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  No, not at all. And she got good reviews.

• 21:09Yasi Salek?

  She got great reviews.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  But the thing about Madonna that I think is so funny is that like she, and listen, people have talked a lot of shit.

• 21:18Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  About, let's just get that out of the way.

• 21:20Yasi Salek?

  About her acting career.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  People love to talk shit about Madonna's acting career. She's an incredible actress. Her acting talent is also God given. She did not study and toil, which is why people were annoyed, because it was sort of like she was just floating from stardom into these positions that other actors had worked a long time for.

• 21:39Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  But she delivers. Like, we just rewatched like most of her movies and like, it's, every single one is surprising and different. She's versatile.

• 21:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 03

  We'll get to it. We'll get to some of them, but I didn't, of course, I was not of age to go see Speed the Plow on Broadway, so I can't speak to that performance.

• 21:58Yasi Salek?

  Madonna had a really hard time during the making of this. We won't get too into the weeds, because as you pointed out, my document is really long and we'll be here forever, but.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Broadway is hard. It sucks.

• 22:07Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I think this is gonna, this is a thread that I'm interested in, in her acting career. She, I think, envisions the characters differently than they are envisioned perhaps by the director or the writer.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  Many such cases.

• 22:24Yasi Salek?

  Right, but and but and again, the pink pussy hat babe, may I should just affix it to my head with some fucking bobby pins because it's often in a way that like, has shades of misogyny.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 22:36Yasi Salek?

  Where it's like, you know, she's like, I see this char- I see this this character as a three dimensional woman. Her actual quote was, I saw her as an angel and innocent and they wanted her to be a cunt.

• 22:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:46Yasi Salek?

  And I think that she had a difficult time with that and it was like a mindfuck of a script in her words. She said, Mamet is a stubborn man. He is not interested in collaborating. I think he's interested in fascism. Which is quite funny.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  I would love to be, I would love to witness like the fights that would have happened during rehearsals. I don't know.

• 23:05Yasi Salek?

  The battle of wills.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  If anybody has seen Marty Supreme, David Mamet makes a cameo in that movie as the director of Gwyneth Paltrow's play. And he's yelling at Gwyneth Paltrow. It feels like, it was, that was like fantasy fulfillment for me. I was like, this is like when Madonna did Speed the Block.

• 23:22Yasi Salek?

  So funny. So yeah, so she's having a rough go, but she makes a, a brand new girlfriend during this time, Sandra Bernhard, who she had met, actually, I think, on an early date with Sean Penn. She went to a party with Sean Penn, early in the relationship, like third or, third date or something, and Warren Beatty and Sandra Bernhard were both at that party. Isn't that interesting? Um, LA, babe.

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:48Yasi Salek?

  LA, Tinsel Sound. Sandra was doing a one woman show called Without You, I'm Nothing at the Orpheum Theater. She invites Madonna and they just fell into like a nice, close, easy friendship.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  I find that Sandra Bernhard has been a little bit maligned, a little bit misunderstood.

• 24:04Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 24:05Speaker 03

  There was a Mariah Carey quote that circulated during, um, woke mania, uh, that didn't go over so well, didn't age so well.

• 24:14Yasi Salek?

  Oh.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  And the internet have sort of seized on it. And whenever she's back in the culture. It's always like, remember what she said about Mariah Carey.

• 24:23Yasi Salek?

  Isn't she cast on the new season of White Lotus?

• 24:26Speaker 03

  I believe so.

• 24:27Yasi Salek?

  I think I read that.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  If you were there back then.

• 24:31Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  She was the coolest.

• 24:33Yasi Salek?

  Hundred percent.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  Funniest.

• 24:35Yasi Salek?

  Gorgeous.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Most glamorous.

• 24:37Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, totally.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Like, most incredible celebrity. Like, they don't make them like that anymore.

• 24:43Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, she was like the Wario talent generous.

• 24:48Yasi Salek?

  But in the cool way.

• 24:49Speaker 03

  Wow. I mean, also, see, watch her performance in The King of Comedy, incredible actress, like, just like.

• 24:56Yasi Salek?

  A really cool face.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Like, also, she's also on Gay Mount Rushmore. Gay Mount Rushmore is getting crowded with Madonna's friends.

• 25:03Yasi Salek?

  So they hung out all the time. Madonna told Vanity Fair, I had a lot of evenings for you, so we just started hanging out, slagging everybody off together. She was just what I needed. We became really good friends. And then someone else said about their friendship, anonymous source, I think that's why she likes Sandra so much, she can be totally obnoxious with her and not worry about being a star. I think she just sort of looks up to Sandra. To put it bluntly, sometimes when they're together, they can be a nightmare.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  I mean, those are the best kinds of friendships.

• 25:30Yasi Salek?

  I agree. When you're just like, your friend kind of gives you permission to be the most devious of yourself.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  But if you've ever been part of a two-headed monster, like I have, it's one of life's greatest pinnacles.

• 25:43Yasi Salek?

  Totally. Their friend group was called the Snatch Batch. Just need to put that in here. That's so good.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Pussy Posse found that in a ditch.

• 25:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, exactly. So Sean Penn is off, remember, they're still married. So Sean Penn is off in Thailand filming Casualties of War, comes back in June, and Madonna's like full, doing the play Snatch Batch mode. On July 1st, she

• 26:08Yasi Salek?

  goes on a legendary appearance on David Letterman.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  With the white t-shirts and the blue jeans.

• 26:13Yasi Salek?

  The match. So Sandra was the actual guest, like, she was booked to be on, and Madonna kind of crashed the party, or, you know, she was invited to crash the party. But yeah, they're wearing.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  She was being a groupie.

• 26:23Yasi Salek?

  Wearing the matching outfits. It's so 1988, like, little loafers and the, it's really cute. And they kind of play up the implication that they're dating.

• 26:36Speaker 04

  Let's talk about you two getting together over my dead party.

• 26:43Speaker 04

  I see something happening here and I'm not pleased.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  When she started hanging out with Sandra Bernhard, that was when all the lesbian rumors started.

• 26:51Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Which I think to a generation of lesbians was a huge deal.

• 26:56Yasi Salek?

  I'm sure.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  Culturally.

• 26:57Yasi Salek?

  And again, Madonna is nothing if not a fucking genius. So she was probably like, great. And also I think she later said really cool things about it. I'm sure I have them in the doc, but it was the gist of being like, what if I am and what if I'm not? Who cares?

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:13Yasi Salek?

  Kind of like Lady Gaga did with that interviewer who was like, do you have a penis? And she was like, so what if I did? You know, like, which is the best possible way to answer that.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It's also, it's a little bit Courtney Love, like, I don't think you should be impeached.

• 27:28Yasi Salek?

  Shades of.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  We have our own opinions. You don't decide them for us.

• 27:31Yasi Salek?

  Shades of, yeah. Every bit of that was kind of genius from the like stirring the pot to the how she handled it. Um, I don't know that, um, Jonathan Penn loved it that much, but I don't want to put thoughts or words into his mouth.

• 27:44Speaker 03

  I think that what's like really interesting about this period of Madonna's career is that, and we will get into the brunette of it all when we get into like a prayer, but if you look at it, she reached like the peak of fame after True Blue.

• 27:59Yasi Salek?

  Or so, or so we thought.

• 28:01Speaker 03

  And like, put out You Can Dance, which was essentially a greatest hits compilation.

• 28:05Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Decided to go away. She did a, a play. She's doing theater because she's like interested in acting. This is when she's like.

• 28:15Yasi Salek?

  She's married. She's like.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 28:18Yasi Salek?

  Doing laundry at home when she's not doing the play and like kind of loving the blissful married life when it's possible.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  Hmm. But there was always like kind of a, an eagerness with her and like, then there was a little bit of like, her really soaking in the limelight, really enjoying all the attention she was getting and knowing that she could be provocative and that, and you know, she was like really kind of seizing all of that. And this feels like a turning point for her where she kind of was like, she had everything she wanted. She could do whatever she wanted and she stopped caring.

• 28:48Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  And like, just didn't give a fuck. Like she didn't care if people thought she was lesbian. She didn't. She was just having fun and enjoying herself. And there's something about that ease of this period that I think. Means something in terms of her kind of personality and her approach after this.

• 29:05Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I get what you're saying. Yeah, I think it's gonna be really interesting to talk about. Also, I'm not an astrologer, so I can't cast her chart perfectly, but like, she's 30, so at some point around here, she's had her Saturn return. So I think for some people, it's after sometime between 28 and 30, but like, I'm interested in that starts the second act of your life, you know? And this is obviously, we're about to start the second act of her life.

• 29:37Speaker 00

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• 30:07Yasi Salek?

  Four days after she turned 30, Jean-Paul Bousquet passed away from an overdose. Her old flame and good friend. The end of August, her birthday is in August, she's done with the play. She goes back to LA to work on the next album. And that fall, she meets with Warren Beatty to discuss the film Dick Tracy. And she gets the part.

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Of course she did.

• 30:30Yasi Salek?

  Of course she did.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  If you see that movie, no one else could have played Breathless.

• 30:35Yasi Salek?

  They had, it said in the book who they were considering, but I can't remember who it was. Also, I just had the thought that it's like very funny that each Madonna and Sean Penn had like, their one best friend that the other one was like, and Sean Penn's was Charles Bukowski and Madonna's was Sandra Bernard. It's like very funny. Imagine the four of them in a room together. So Sean is in the play.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  Sandra and Charles going at it.

• 31:02Yasi Salek?

  Kicking.

• 31:04Yasi Salek?

  Charles Bukowski is blacked out. Um, he doesn't understand what a lesbian is. He's never seen such a thing. So Sean's doing Hurly Burly, the David Ray play, um, at Westwood Playhouse in Los Angeles. And there was some accounts that on opening night Madonna came late with Sandra. And at the after party that Sean was visibly upset and screamed at her, how could you do this to me? And they basically had a public screaming match. Um, still, she would come the whole run of the play, um, take him home after. There's also some speculation that he was upset that she took the part of Breathless Mahoney in Dick Tracy. A lot of what I was reading was like, everyone in Hollywood was like, you know what Warren Beatty be doing?

• 31:48Speaker 03

  He's, well, duh.

• 31:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  Can you blame him? He knew what Warren was up to.

• 31:52Yasi Salek?

  In Mary Gabriel's book, it says that he slept with 13,000 women.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  And he's still with us.

• 32:01Yasi Salek?

  Okay, Wilt Chamberlain, like.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  There's still time.

• 32:03Yasi Salek?

  That's so true. He's, he's, actually, it's like one of those McDonald's clocks or like, I haven't checked it in a while. It's probably gone up since then. Sean Penn had also been hanging out a bunch with Hal Ashby at this point.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Sick.

• 32:14Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. The director, if you guys don't know of Harold and Maude, um, and being there. And he died on December 27th, 1988. You're like, why are you telling me this? Um, this is why I'm telling you this because shortly thereafter, like within a day or two, a sort of situation transpired, um, at their home in Malibu. Um, and according to Sean Penn's biographer, Richard T. Kelly, he and Madonna had an argument over breakfast and he asked her to leave. And allegedly Sean told Madonna he would cut her hair off if she came back. And she, I don't know what, listen, this is, I'm simply reporting the speculation.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  The tabloid reports.

• 32:54Yasi Salek?

  Well, I mean, this is in his, his bio, but, um, regardless of what actually happened in that sense, what, what we know to have happened is that the police were called and the SWAT team came to the house. And Sean Penn told Playboy in 1991. Yeah. Sean Penn was like, she felt the responsible thing to do was to inform them there were firearms in the house, which is like so sick, honestly. You're like, oh, you're gonna cut my hair, bitch? I told the cops you have guns.

• 33:24Yasi Salek?

  I'm fanficking. So she leaves and goes to Friday to man her manager's house and Christopher Shiconi, her brother, flies out to be with her and get her a new place to live. That's basically, I bring that up to be like, that was the last straw. I also bring it up, I said this on the first episode, but I want to say it again. I'm not interested, for the purposes of this podcast, I'm not really interested in gossip or personal life stuff to the extent that it doesn't inform the music or the creativity.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:54Yasi Salek?

  You know what I mean? But I think this-

• 33:56Speaker 03

  We weren't there.

• 33:57Yasi Salek?

  But this stuff does. Like, it's important to say it because we're gonna, it's, it's gonna inform what's coming next musically and creatively. So she files her divorce at the top of 1989. In March, Rolling Stone asked her, so there wasn't one single breaking point? And she said, it's been a slow breaking point all the way. I can't say anything specific happened. And this is, while she's already kind of started working on Like a Prayer, this is the like stew and juice that she is creating this next album out of.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  And she would say later on, several times, like, that she always loved Sean, that she would, she said he's the love of her life and Truth or Dare. And so it feels also like one of those situations where, obviously, love wasn't enough. Like, the relationship was very combustible and-

• 34:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 03

  dramatic and-

• 34:49Yasi Salek?

  It sounds like-

• 34:50Speaker 03

  not the right relationship.

• 34:51Yasi Salek?

  Again, to me, who, who cares what I think, but it's like, pretty clear, like, you can love each other the most, but the things going on around you, the insane skyrocketing of Madonna's fame from when they met and started dating throughout their marriage, and then Sean Penn not being particularly in love with the limelight, you know, I think, and they had just like, kind of different things going on. Who could sustain that, you know?

• 35:19Speaker 03

  I mean, a lot of celebrity relationships with other celebrities, I always find them a little strange because of my Miss Piggy, Kermit the Frog, theory of relationships, that there's always a Kermit and a piggy.

• 35:30Yasi Salek?

  Okay. Can you expand on that?

• 35:33Speaker 03

  I just feel like in this relationship, it was two Miss Piggies.

• 35:35Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  Two Miss Piggies equals some karate.

• 35:40Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, some karate. I just, yeah. Well, okay.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  Sorry to get all woo woo in Hollywood over here.

• 35:51Yasi Salek?

  Regardless, this is why Like a Prayer is essentially a divorce album. This is a divorce album, you know? A few weeks before the divorce is actually finalized and before Like a Prayer comes out, Madonna enters into an unprecedented agreement with the Pepsi Corporation.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 36:09Yasi Salek?

  That she would release her new single, Like a Prayer, during a Pepsi commercial for $5 million and additionally tour support.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  So we're gonna spend the next several hours talking about the Pepsi commercial.

• 36:24Yasi Salek?

  So this is the first-

• 36:25Speaker 03

  It's an important commercial.

• 36:26Yasi Salek?

  This is the first time a single would premiere in a commercial. It had never happened before. And it was the first time a commercial would have a global launch. This commercial was gonna go live in 40 countries at the same time. Spike Lee had done his first Nike ad in 1988. Obviously, that was like a watershed moment. Absolute Vodka had been in the game for a while. They had been doing those artist collaborations since 1985. They did the first one, I think, with Andy Warhol. And then Pepsi, since 84, had had Michael Jackson, Tina Turner, David Bowie, Lionel Richie, and you guys, the Miami Sound Machine. Celeste, you forget the 80s were a thing and there was the Miami Sound Machine.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  All pretty good, pretty good, Tina.

• 37:06Yasi Salek?

  Miami Sound Machine had bangers. They asked her in Rolling Stone, "Why did you do it? You don't need the money." And she was like, "No, but I do consider it a challenge to make a commercial that has some sort of artistic value. I like the challenge of merging art and commerce. As far as I'm concerned, making a video is also a commercial," which she's not wrong. "The Pepsi spot is a great and different way to expose the record. Record companies just don't have the money to finance that kind of publicity." Bim. Wait till you go fucking in the 2000s where they're like, "Oh, you wanna make a music video? Here's four grand."

• 37:35Speaker 03

  What I love about this statement is it started out sounding like bullshit and then she made a point.

• 37:40Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, totally.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  I'm like, she got me.

• 37:43Yasi Salek?

  The ad was directed by Joe Pitcau, who did this is your brain on drugs egg ad.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, major.

• 37:51Yasi Salek?

  So major.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  A lot of great commercials, actually.

• 37:52Yasi Salek?

  Burned right into my brain, that one. And he had done The Way You Make Me Feel, the Michael Jackson video.

• 37:59Speaker 03

  And Michael Jackson's Pepsi commercial.

• 38:00Yasi Salek?

  And Michael Jackson's Pepsi commercial. Is that the one that caught on fire?

• 38:04Speaker 03

  His hair did.

• 38:04Yasi Salek?

  His hair caught on fire, yeah.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  And- These commercials are extremely aesthetically significant.

• 38:11Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  I would say.

• 38:12Yasi Salek?

  Also, very importantly, for Joe Pitcairn, he brings into the picture the choreographer, Vincent Patterson, who's gonna form a really lasting creative bond with Madonna and have a lot to do with what this episode's and a little bit further work. So there was a very brief period that she had this hair, but I realized that it was actually memorialized in this commercial and in the Interview magazine cover, which I forgot to bring.

• 38:40Speaker 03

  And one other.

• 38:41Yasi Salek?

  Their original E-girl hair, babe. The bleached blonde front and the dark rest of it looks so cool. Sorry.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  It was, I use this expression a lot on fans plane, it was the canary in the coal mine of the brunette blonde.

• 38:56Yasi Salek?

  She was first.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Hair tension and drama and conversation.

• 39:00Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 39:00Speaker 03

  That would take place over the course of The Like a Prayer record. Continue.

• 39:05Yasi Salek?

  And album cycle, yeah. That is fabulous. I'm sorry, I'll say it.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  It's the bomb.

• 39:09Yasi Salek?

  It's the bomb. The through line is there's a young girl, it's meant to be Madonna as a child, played by Heidi Marshall, and there's Catholic schoolgirls at a Catholic school, there's a gospel choir in the church with Madonna singing, and it all kind of culminates with Madonna sitting in an armchair, talking to the TV where the little girl is pictured on the TV, saying to her, "Go ahead, make a wish," while drinking a can of Pepsi, and the little girl is drinking an old-fashioned bottle of Pepsi.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  It's a rear projector television.

• 39:40Yasi Salek?

  Okay, okay.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Which were, those were hot back then.

• 39:42Yasi Salek?

  This is a big, that was a big.

• 39:44Speaker 03

  They're back in style now, but they were big back then.

• 39:56Yasi Salek?

  I think it's a beautiful ad. Guess what? You can watch it on YouTube, but actually, they only aired it one time.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  So they pre-purchased $10 million of airtime for it.

• 40:05Yasi Salek?

  $10 million of airtime. And they ran an ad for the ad, I've never even heard of such a thing, during the Grammys. They were like, no matter where you are in the world on March 2nd, get to a TV and see Pepsi present Madonna. And March 2nd, 1989, they aired it one time, and I'll tell you why. Because they had not yet seen the actual video for Like a Prayer. Whoopsie.

• 40:30Yasi Salek?

  Oops.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  So I just want to say that-

• 40:32Yasi Salek?

  The check cleared, though.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  The check cleared, and also for a commercial that has only aired one time, it's probably the most iconic commercial of my young life.

• 40:42Yasi Salek?

  You watched it in real time? I didn't watch it in real time.

• 40:45Speaker 03

  But it was like, clips of it would replay all the time on like MTV.

• 40:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, like they're talking about how it was-

• 40:52Speaker 03

  They would show clips from it when they were talking about how it was banned. It was like a Pepsi commercial is banned. Like banning it was very Streisand effect that blew it up into like a huge-

• 41:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  Public spectacle.

• 41:03Yasi Salek?

  Pepsi themselves banned. They were like, oh, well, because, okay, sorry, we got ahead. Because the actual Like a Prayer video, released March 3rd, the day after, with the single, is, for the time, I think you can definitely say, was pushing the envelope of a lot of causes that, or, you know, considerations that were not being talked about, especially not in a music video. So the story of the video is, a woman witnesses a crime, that's Madonna, of a girl getting assaulted by a white man who runs off. And then a black man comes up to help the girl, and he is arrested for the crime. The video basically follows Madonna's torment over what to do, what should I come forward?

• 41:45Yasi Salek?

  There's burning crosses, there's a gospel choir, there's a black saint who looks exactly like the man arrested, because they're played by the same man, Leon Robinson, who Madonna kisses the feet of the black saint. And then there's Madonna in a chocolate brown slip from the 50s, actually belonged to Natalie Wood, had her name still in it. As Greel Marcus, the god, put it, "You have blasphemy on about 10 levels at once." I don't think Pepsi themselves gave a fuck, to be honest, but there was like immediate outrage.

• 42:17Speaker 03

  Outcry.

• 42:17Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, from like, you know, the religious right. Totally, yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  I think the Vatican weighs in at some point, but we'll get to that.

• 42:25Yasi Salek?

  Vatican absolutely weighs in on Madonna a couple times. But guess what? It hit number one in 30 countries, including Italy. Beb. So, I love this video.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  It was directed by Mary Lambert.

• 42:36Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  Mary is a legendary director, do a lot in part to her Madonna videos.

• 42:42Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  But she also did Nasty and Control for Janet Jackson, and-

• 42:48Yasi Salek?

  Went-

• 42:48Speaker 03

  The Glamorous Life for Sheila E.

• 42:50Yasi Salek?

  Went to art school with The Talking Heads, and that's how she came to direct Madonna videos, because of the sire connection.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  It was also shot by Steven Poster, the cinematographer who would go on to shoot Donnie Darko and Southland Tales.

• 43:04Yasi Salek?

  Incredible.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  It's called Taste.

• 43:06Yasi Salek?

  Madonna, from this point, because as they said with True Blue being such like an apex of her career and making so much money, that they were like, she can do whatever she wants.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:18Yasi Salek?

  And so she did whatever she wanted.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  There's a shot in the video where Madonna is falling through the sky.

• 43:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Out of the sky.

• 43:29Yasi Salek?

  I don't know.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  I close my eyes.

• 43:31Yasi Salek?

  Heaven help me.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  And the gospel singer catches her and then throws her back into the sky. That is one of the most unintentionally hilarious and ridiculous sequences in a music video I've ever seen.

• 43:44Yasi Salek?

  I love it. I love everything about it.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  It's actually the most insane video ever, if you break it down. Like, okay, like, clear your heads, everybody. What I'm about to say is gonna, you're gonna like freak out, but bearing in mind that it is like one of the most iconic videos of all time, like maybe top two.

• 44:04Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  I think about iconic pop videos, I think about the burning crosses in Like a Prayer, and I think about like Michael Jackson, Billie Jean, and the street is lighting up.

• 44:15Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 44:15Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 44:15Yasi Salek?

  And for me, thriller, honestly.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. So it's like, I'm not taking any of that away from it, but because it's so iconic and it like is so embedded in all of us so deeply, if to go and re-watch it now, like from a filmmaking perspective, from a storytelling perspective, it's a riot. Like, I'm sorry, it's like this white savior narrative of this woman who witnesses, who's like deciding whether or not to come forward as a witness to, what is it, like a?

• 44:46Yasi Salek?

  It's like a rape or sexual assault, yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  And in deciding whether or not to do the right thing, because she might not, it's a decision she's making. It's not, she's not like, I must help this person. She's like, should I? And then her, should I, creates a hallucination.

• 45:03Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Where she's like a Messiah in a black church.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  Like she's like, I'm saving black people if I do this. It's crazy.

• 45:15Yasi Salek?

  Okay, I'm not, I'm not sure that was the exact storyboarding of the format.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  It's so headless. Like, no one has been this headless or carried this much, ever.

• 45:27Yasi Salek?

  I think the like-

• 45:28Speaker 03

  And the performance of her with the gospel choir, she's down on the ground and banging-

• 45:32Yasi Salek?

  Okay, I'm gonna read, I'm gonna read her own words of what this video said. She said, "A girl in the street witnesses an assault on a young woman, afraid to get involved because she might get hurt. She is frozen in fear. A black man walking down the street also sees the incident and decides to help the woman. But then, the police arrive and arrest him. As they take him away, she looks up and sees one of the gang members, okay, who, this is the part we missed, who assaults the girl, who had assaulted the girl. He gives her a look that says she'll be dead if she tells. That's why she struck him, and that is in the video. I remember it."

• 46:02Speaker 03

  It is in the video. I don't know if it lands, though.

• 46:04Yasi Salek?

  Well, that was, that was the intention. No, I remember it. Don't you remember? And he was just like-

• 46:09Speaker 03

  He's like, he's just looking at her, but it's like, I don't really get that she feels threatened there. I feel like she's just like-

• 46:14Yasi Salek?

  Why else would she, why else would she not come forward?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Cause she's a narcissist.

• 46:22Yasi Salek?

  "The girl runs, not knowing where to go until she sees a church. She goes in and sees a saint in a cage who looks very much like the man on the street and says a prayer to help her make the right decision. He seems to be crying, but she's not sure. She lies down on a pew and falls into a dream in which she begins to tumble in space." Okay, she fell asleep, babe. That was a dream. Dream sequence.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Alice in Wonderland now.

• 46:41Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. And with no one to break her fall. Suddenly, she is caught by a woman who represents earth and emotional strength and who tosses her back up and tells her to do the right thing. Still dreaming, she returns to the saint and her religious and erotic feelings begin to stir. The saint becomes a man. She picks up a knife and cuts her hands. That's the guilt in Catholicism, that if you do something that feels good, you will be punished. As the choir sings, she reaches an orgasmic crescendo of sexual fulfillment, intertwined with her love of God. She knows that nothing's gonna happen to her if she does what she believes is right. She wakes up, goes to the jail, tells the police the man is innocent, and he is freed. Then everyone takes a bow, and we say-

• 47:21Speaker 03

  The bow is also hysterical. It's very Shakespeare.

• 47:24Yasi Salek?

  It's all the world to stay there.

• 47:28Yasi Salek?

  I just like-

• 47:28Speaker 03

  Anyway, anyway.

• 47:29Yasi Salek?

  I love it so much. Okay, here are the parts that I love about it. Given that it's impossible to watch it now without the brain rot and brain damage that has transpired in the years since, where nothing could possibly make any sort of emotional impact, or like be like envelope pushing now because we live in a hellscape of memes where like the Iranian government is like, here's Donald Trump doing a little dance while we're at war. Thinking about that, go back and imagine a world where like putting burning crosses on TV was insane, that people would watch that.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  It still is insane.

• 48:06Yasi Salek?

  It still is insane, exactly. Like, and then also to like, I know you guys, you already know how I feel about spirituality, but I love the, I love the idea of someone bringing forth religious ecstasy. There was actually a saint, I think it was, I think it was, oh my god, I can't remember her name, she was so awesome. She's always depicted with all the swords going through her. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, that old, that old bitch.

• 48:33Yasi Salek?

  But her whole thing was also religious, like, kind of like sexual ecstasy of the spirit.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  She was fierce.

• 48:39Yasi Salek?

  I'm a fucking, I'm a major fan. I love Like a Prayer.

• 48:42Speaker 03

  I'm a huge fan, I just wanted to say-

• 48:44Yasi Salek?

  I'm not thinking about Madonna, I'm just thinking about this video and this song. By the way, we should talk about this song really quick. That guitar in the beginning is Prince, uncredited. Okay, cool, no big deal.

• 49:01Yasi Salek?

  The gospel influences really, it's really like works, like-

• 49:05Speaker 03

  It does work.

• 49:06Yasi Salek?

  It works so well. And then also putting in, I think people don't like this, but I'm down on my knees, I'll take you there. That's, that's Madonna at her best, you know?

• 49:16Speaker 03

  Totally. This is like peak. This was like, but you can, you can see why there was such an uproar at the time.

• 49:22Yasi Salek?

  Of course.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  And like, but that gets kind of, we get numb to it as time goes on as well.

• 49:27Yasi Salek?

  Exactly.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  So for me, it's less about like, oh, if you look at it through today's lens, you can poke holes in it and find even more things to be offended about. It's not even about that. It's like, we actually like, aren't offended by anything anymore.

• 49:38Yasi Salek?

  That's what I was saying. I think it's the opposite. I think-

• 49:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, like everything is-

• 49:40Yasi Salek?

  Nothing makes an impact, because you're just like-

• 49:43Speaker 03

  But you, but you know, there was a huge reaction to it, which is similar, which of course we talked about with the Pepsi ad, but it made the song bigger, I think. This was like the example of like her provocations really doing their job.

• 49:56Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, 100%. So it's in, into that space that a couple of weeks later, the full album comes out.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  I also just want to say quickly that I want to talk about her costume designer, Marlene Stewart.

• 50:09Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 50:10Speaker 03

  She did this video, but she also did Material Girl, Dress You Up, The Virgin Tour, Papa Don't Preach, True Blue, Open Your Heart, Las La Bonita, Who's That Girl, Like a Prayer, Express Yourself.

• 50:22Yasi Salek?

  She's the costume designer on Dangerous Game.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Yes, she's the costume designer on Dangerous Game. She also has done videos for Janet Jackson, Cher, Rod Stewart, Eurythmics. She went on to do the feature films. I just, I'm going crazy on this because I'm obsessed with her.

• 50:37Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  She did The Doors.

• 50:39Yasi Salek?

  Oh, best.

• 50:41Speaker 03

  JFK, Terminator 2, True Lies, Two Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar, Space Jam, The Saint, The X-Files movie.

• 50:56Yasi Salek?

  The Saint was so good.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  I know. Coyote Ugly, 21 Grams, The Holiday that Cameron Diaz.

• 51:03Yasi Salek?

  You don't have to explain who The Holiday is to me, babe.

• 51:05Speaker 03

  I'm skipping a lot, but she also did Tropic Thunder, Oblivion, Top Gun Maverick. Never nominated for an Oscar, which is insane. Totally underrated giant.

• 51:15Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  Of costume design. Marlene Stewart, say her name.

• 51:19Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Speaker 03

  This is the sort of person that I feel like doesn't get the proper amount of praise.

• 51:22Yasi Salek?

  I think there's like three major fashion players in Madonna's look life, and it's Mari Poole, Marlene Stewart, and then Ariane Phillips, which we'll get to in another part. Okay. Like a Prayer, March 20, 1989, produced by Madonna, Patrick Leonard, Stephen Bray, and Prince has a little je ne sais quoi on it.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  He sprinkled a little Prince dust on there.

• 51:48Yasi Salek?

  I suppose his production extends to just the one song, but.

• 51:52Yasi Salek?

  I really liked this bit from Patrick Leonard. He said, "We argued a lot during the making of this album, but one day she held up the True Blue album cover and said, 'Whose picture is this?' The more feisty conversation stopped there." It's pretty amazing. She's like, "Oh, really? Who's this? This is me?"

• 52:07Speaker 03

  Pulling rank.

• 52:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. The ever impossible to answer, but everyone has their own because it's just a personal thing. Favorite album question.

• 52:18Yasi Salek?

  This, I think, is mine. Like, every which way from Sunday, I try to, like, parse it out. Even though I think I recognize that, like, maybe objectively speaking, through like a music critic lens, there are better albums. I just, this is my guy.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  Didn't Mel talk about the napkin?

• 52:37Yasi Salek?

  No, you know what? He did bring up the napkin.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 52:40Yasi Salek?

  We've talked about it a bunch in our group chat, though. Do you want to talk about the napkin?

• 52:44Speaker 03

  I'll start this off by saying I think I'm in four Madonna-centric group chats.

• 52:49Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  And there's a lot of overlap in them.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  It's all really confusing to me. It should probably just be one group chat, but we don't have the discipline. And sometimes you want to leave someone alone. You know what I mean? It's like, are we gonna pull Karen Gans into every Madonna group chat?

• 53:05Yasi Salek?

  I know. She'd probably love it.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  So, you know, we're trying to be respectful by like, how stupid the Madonna conversation's getting warrants a different group chat. There's like, it's like, there's levels happening. But there was a one night when a bunch of us were together. I think we were at Julius Bar, I want to say, in New York. And we all got into a conversation about what is the best Madonna album? And it turned into a screaming fight that lasted for hours, where we were ranking the albums on Cocktail Napkins. And then we finally came to a consensus of the Madonna album ranking, which Mel still has the Cocktail Napkins.

• 53:43Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, which, by the way, is like so incorrect.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  It's totally incorrect. We look at it now, we're like, what were we thinking?

• 53:48Yasi Salek?

  It like hurt my feelings.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  Because we were like screaming at each other.

• 53:51Yasi Salek?

  Like, "A Prayer" is not even on the napkin. I was like, immediate disqualification, you guys. Sorry, but like, this napkin is null and void.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Well, I do think that...

• 54:01Yasi Salek?

  "American Style" is number four?

• 54:02Speaker 03

  "American Life"?

• 54:03Yasi Salek?

  "American Life", sorry. "American Life" is number four?

• 54:05Speaker 03

  Canceled.

• 54:06Yasi Salek?

  And "No Like a Prayer" on the napkin?

• 54:08Speaker 03

  "American Life" is a really good record.

• 54:10Yasi Salek?

  I agree, but... Like a Prayer, not, not even mentioned.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  But I think True Blue is number one.

• 54:16Yasi Salek?

  I love True, I love True.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  I think that is my number one. I think it might be my favorite.

• 54:20Yasi Salek?

  Me neck and neck with, I'm just picturing, it was just like, you get eight gay guys together and like, try to get them to rank Madonna, it's like throwing like a raw meat into like a coyote cage and just like, tearing each other apart.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, there were some lesbians too.

• 54:35Yasi Salek?

  Friendships were ended.

• 54:38Yasi Salek?

  Alright.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:39Yasi Salek?

  Back to this album.

• 54:40Speaker 03

  Huge album, Like a Prayer.

• 54:42Yasi Salek?

  Huge album. I think sonically, what I didn't understand that I was like, reacting to or have been reacting to all these years, but once someone put it forth, I was like, oh, that makes sense. It has real drums almost all throughout and synth bass. And there's a very cool, there's also, sometimes that's inverted with other artists, but there's a really cool thing that happens when like, the drum is real and the bass is synth, or the drums are synth and the bass is real. It's just like a beautiful alchemy, I think, that makes these songs really pop.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  That's interesting.

• 55:19Yasi Salek?

  The dedication of this album is to my mother who taught me how to pray. They asked her in Rolling Stone, you dedicated the album to your mother who taught you how to pray. When do you pray? And she said, constantly. I pray when I'm in trouble or when I'm happy, when I feel any sort of extreme. I pray when I feel so great that I'll, I'll think I need to check in with myself and recognize how good life is. I know that sounds silly.

• 55:39Speaker 03

  We should start doing that.

• 55:41Yasi Salek?

  I pray a lot. Do you not pray?

• 55:42Speaker 03

  I've been in that instance.

• 55:44Yasi Salek?

  When, when you have to like check yourself and know how good life is.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:48Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I think the, the act of making gratitude lists, not to be like absolute Venice hot lady, woo woo. But that to me is like a prayer of gratitude, is when you like really sit.

• 55:59Speaker 03

  Whatever she's doing is working, so I'm just.

• 56:01Yasi Salek?

  I'll do whatever you're doing, babe.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  Taking notes.

• 56:03Yasi Salek?

  Um, another like, I think thing that informs this album is the year prior, Tony Shakone, Madonna's father, had given all his children copies of the letters their mother had written to him when he was in the air force, before they were married. So they had all of a sudden, all this like material, or she had all this material of her mother to like kind of.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  That's so interesting.

• 56:26Yasi Salek?

  Right?

• 56:27Speaker 03

  Cause this does, this album does feel more about her mother than.

• 56:30Yasi Salek?

  It's.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  Any have been up to this point.

• 56:31Yasi Salek?

  I feel like, to me, Like a Prayer is an album like about loss, right? Like, it's about the loss of love. In a relationship, it's about the loss of your mother. It's about the loss of maybe your like idea of what could be, you know, like she thought Sean Penn was, that's it, I'm true blue baby forever, you know? And also the loss of like agency, because a lot of this is about like pushing back against like, I'm sorry to say it, the patriarchy, fathers, husbands, people trying to control you and tell you what to do. And then I think just to like position it, and so we can talk about when we get to erotica. I think that is the slingshot effect into erotica, because erotica is an album about power.

• 57:16Yasi Salek?

  About taking power and being like, oh, really? Like, no, you thought, you thought you could take, no, I'm taking the power, you know? But just like the emotion in this album, there's, there's songs where you can hear that she's like, it feels like she's about to cry, like her voice is like cracking, it's so emotional.

• 57:37Speaker 03

  Certain songs in here I can't even get through almost because like listening to it again recently, I'm like, maybe I'm just so middle aged now, or like I've lost my mother, so it's like things hit different.

• 57:48Yasi Salek?

  Promise to try.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  Promise to try, I can't deal.

• 57:51Yasi Salek?

  Openly right now.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  And she sounds like she's crying on that song.

• 57:53Yasi Salek?

  She sings, sounds like, well, let's go through.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  But also like something else about this album is that it feels like her most rebellious album, which is so interesting because.

• 58:03Yasi Salek?

  Really? Go on, tell me more about that.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  Up until this point, because even though she was being so like rambunctious and wild and free and doing Papa Don't Preach and kind of pushing these buttons here and there. And there's like intention versus what actually the result was and what happened because of the album cycle didn't necessarily go according to plan for what she was doing, but she came into this album cycle brunette.

• 58:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 58:26Speaker 03

  Like she was kind of getting rid of the image that she created, this like pop icon image. She's like, it's like very sixties inspired.

• 58:34Yasi Salek?

  Yes, as you can see from the cover.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Which has like a little, it has like a political undertone, but it has a little bit of like. I'm done being this artificial kind of bulletproof pop star. And I'm like, I'm different than you think I am. I'm deeper than you think I am.

• 58:51Yasi Salek?

  I'm displaying vulnerability. This is like her, like, also, we talked about it a little on the first episode, but like, it's not so true blue that she is so much taking over the like lyrical content as much. And even then, it's, it's a little fluffy.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:07Yasi Salek?

  It's great. It's, it's true. Like She's in Love and, you know, Papa Don't Preach was already written, but like, she embodied it. But here it's like her, like, she's in her Joni Mitchell bag. She's like, I'm like mining my, my pain and my life to like pour into these lyrics. And it's very, it is like not your typical pop star moment.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  But then also to come out with Like a Prayer as the lead single and do that video. It's the most boundary pushing thing she had done up until that point. And so it's also, but she's grounding it in this like introspective religious thing. And then she does end up kind of going back to blonde pop star.

• 59:44Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  In the middle of things because of Dick Tracy.

• 59:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 59:48Speaker 03

  And like.

• 59:48Yasi Salek?

  But thank God, imagine the Vogue video or the Express Yourself video without the bleached blonde hair.

• 59:55Speaker 03

  Listen, God works in mysterious ways. Things worked out how they had to.

• 1:00:00Yasi Salek?

  Life is a mystery.

• 1:00:01Speaker 03

  Life is a mystery.

• 1:00:01Yasi Salek?

  Everyone must stand alone. So we, we started talking about the influences, right? It's the divorce album. Pat Leonard said that on some days she would wear sunglasses all day in the studio. Like she was going the fuck through it. Sean Penn told Playboy in 1991, "You have to understand, when Madonna and I got together, she hadn't even gone on tour yet. My understanding of the direction that Madonna was choosing was a misunderstanding. And the degree to which she would be choosing and chosen for such an intense spotlight was a surprise, a big surprise. I started to get the idea very shortly after we were together, but by then there's that heart thing that gets involved. You don't walk away so easily because something's a little difficult.

• 1:00:40Yasi Salek?

  And then here's like an interview with her about the marriage. Do you think the odds were stacked against this marriage from the start? It seemed people defied it to succeed. She said, oh, yes, I felt that no one wanted us to be together. They celebrated our union and then they wanted us to be apart. There were rumors about us getting a divorce about a week after the wedding. We fought that and yes, it was difficult. I don't know if anyone can do it under those circumstances. And then they asked her, do you regret that you ever got married? And she said, no. Ultimately, I have twinned as a regret, but I feel more sadness than anything. Feeling regret is really destructive. I have learned a great deal from my marriage, so much about everything, mostly myself. Please don't ask me what, I just couldn't say.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  What I thought was really interesting was the way that she talked about how Sean was very protective over her. Was this big masculine figure in her life, which reminded her of her father? And what, and the way this record is trying to liberate herself from that.

• 1:01:31Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, 100%. It's like the patriarchy, the, the father, the son, the whole coast, whatever, the pope, the, you know, everyone. She had said, keep it together and express yourself are tributes to like the Sly, Sly and the Family Stone style music. And she said, oh, father is her tribute to Simon and Garfunkel.

• 1:01:51Speaker 03

  Amazing. Wow.

• 1:01:52Yasi Salek?

  Love Simon and Garfunkel.

• 1:01:53Speaker 03

  There's so many things like that with this record that you sort of take for granted or like it's like embedded in our subconscious mind. But you know, I was saying this about the album cover because I've just been looking at that album cover my whole life. It does not read as hippie or 60s to me, which actually is crazy because when you look at it, it is so.

• 1:02:09Yasi Salek?

  No, but I agree. But to me, like, it was so 90s for some reason.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, maybe it was the jeans.

• 1:02:17Yasi Salek?

  We're not in the 90s yet, but isn't that like so the foretelling of how the 90s vibe is like? Cool, like faded blue jeans with like those kinds of beads and like head shop jewelry, you know? It's cool. Herbert shot that.

• 1:02:33Speaker 03

  Sick.

• 1:02:34Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  He shot everything from this record? Pretty much.

• 1:02:40Yasi Salek?

  According to the biographer Lucia Bryan, she said the cover was inspired by Madonna's mother, who used to cover up her Sacred Heart statue with zip-up jeans every time a woman came to visit. Zip-up jeans.

• 1:02:50Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:02:51Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Here's something new every day.

• 1:02:54Yasi Salek?

  I need to point out-

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  Italian customs.

• 1:02:56Yasi Salek?

  Italian customs, French, Canadian, her mom. This album was packaged with the scent of patchouli into it, like church incense. So when you got it, it like burst a smell of patchouli because according to Warner Brothers at the time, she wanted to create a sensual feeling that you could hear and smell.

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  And there was a box set that is very well-known among the Madonna fandom, collected. It came with a cassette.

• 1:03:24Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  A compact disc, um, a copy of Rolling Stone.

• 1:03:29Yasi Salek?

  The, the cover.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:30Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  And there was a metal pin of that Starburst logo mark.

• 1:03:36Yasi Salek?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:03:37Speaker 03

  And slide projector slides, because I guess everybody had those.

• 1:03:41Yasi Salek?

  Of course, we all had a slide projector at our home. Well, and don't forget the insert.

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  The AIDS insert.

• 1:03:47Yasi Salek?

  The AIDS insert that was the facts about AIDS and had a like brief intro that denounced anti-gay bigotry and violence and then laid out very clearly the ways in which one could contract AIDS, including the line, "You can get AIDS by having vaginal or anal sex with an infected partner." Um, not a lot of people mentioning anal sex in 1989, um, let alone in marketing material. So this is kind of a big deal.

• 1:04:13Speaker 03

  Or enough on podcasts like Bant's Blaine. Anal sex, say it.

• 1:04:18Yasi Salek?

  We probably mention anal sex more than any other Ringer podcast.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  That's definitely true.

• 1:04:23Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  I also just want to shout out Sarah Jane Horr, who I think was, did the styling on all of the Erberitz shoots, or most of them.

• 1:04:33Yasi Salek?

  Oh, really?

• 1:04:33Speaker 03

  During this time, she's a legendary stylist who I've worked with.

• 1:04:37Yasi Salek?

  So you think Marlene Stewart didn't do this one?

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  I couldn't tell you, but in- From what my research has taught me.

• 1:04:44Yasi Salek?

  Got it.

• 1:04:45Speaker 03

  It would have been Sarah Jane, perhaps.

• 1:04:47Yasi Salek?

  That's cool. All right. We talked about Like a Prayer song. Let's get into number two. Second single, second track on the record. It's Express Yourself, babe.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 1:04:58Yasi Salek?

  Here's the one where I think if you've heard this song in any context, it's not the album version.

• 1:05:06Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:05:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, because the remix by Shep Pettybone became.

• 1:05:12Speaker 03

  The video.

• 1:05:13Yasi Salek?

  The video, even though they had already filmed the video to the original version. And that is why. So one of the things Shep Pettybone did to the album version is he removed all the horns. But in the video, if you watch, there's still a part where there's men playing horns, but there's no horns.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  It looks good, which is all that matters.

• 1:05:34Yasi Salek?

  We'll get to the video in a second.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  Master of editing, David Fincher. He can, he can make those changes on the fly.

• 1:05:40Yasi Salek?

  I never noticed once until I listened to Inside the Groove podcast and they mentioned it. And I was like, oh, huh.

• 1:05:45Speaker 03

  Also, this, um, this single, there was a limited edition seven inch that came out in the UK. That was a pair of jeans and the back of the single was the backside of the jeans. And the titles were like embroidered on them and it was like a little play off of what was already, yeah.

• 1:06:02Yasi Salek?

  Send it to me. All right.

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  Oh, and you can actually unzip the jeans and take the record out.

• 1:06:07Yasi Salek?

  So fucking cool.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  Why do the British people get everything?

• 1:06:11Yasi Salek?

  It's so true. Everything. They get everything. They're the coolest. That's why. Bring back colonials.

• 1:06:17Yasi Salek?

  It was a mistake.

• 1:06:18Speaker 03

  Take us back.

• 1:06:19Yasi Salek?

  Take us back, actually. So this Express Yourself takes a little inspiration, shall I say, from the song Respect Yourself by Staples Singers. You've heard this song.

• 1:06:42Yasi Salek?

  The live drums on here are by a guy named John J.R. Robinson, who also drummed on a song called "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" by Michael Jackson. Also, a song called "Ain't Nobody" by Shaka Khan. And I'm so excited by the Pointer Sisters.

• 1:06:58Yasi Salek?

  Ledge, babe.

• 1:07:00Yasi Salek?

  The bridge is a sinclavier, which is like the same thing they use on "Superstitious" by Stevie Wonder. And that "You'll never calm down." That's Stephen Brey, doing a weird little... And there is a version-

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  I'm available for those two.

• 1:07:14Yasi Salek?

  So apparently they wanted, they wanted someone else to do it. Like, I can't, I should have written it down. It was like someone famous, but it was just complicated. And I was like, "You just do it." And there's actually, I heard on the Inside the Groove podcast, there is her do it, Madonna doing it as well. It's not included, I don't think, on the thing, but in this weird accent. It's very funny. Madonna said about the meaning of this song, "The message of the song is that people should always say what it is they want. The reason relationships don't work is because they are afraid. That's been my problem in all my relationships. I'm sure people see me as an outspoken person. And for the most part, if I want something, I ask for it. But sometimes, you feel that if you ask for too much or ask for the wrong thing from someone you care about, then that person won't like you. And so you censor yourself. I've been guilty of that in every meaningful relationship I've ever had. The time I learn how to not edit myself

• 1:07:58Yasi Salek?

  will be the time I consider myself a complete adult." 1989.

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  I wonder when it will happen.

• 1:08:03Yasi Salek?

  Well, we have a couple of instances we can... I have a theory on that. And it's, it's like, again, venusality. But I think it's ray of light.

• 1:08:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:08:14Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 1:08:16Yasi Salek?

  Let's talk about the video. I know. Directed by a 26-year-old David, Dave Fincher.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  Love of my life.

• 1:08:27Yasi Salek?

  Do you think anyone calls him Dave?

• 1:08:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:30Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  If only to fuck with him.

• 1:08:32Yasi Salek?

  Right. So just a quick David Fincher sidebar.

• 1:08:35Speaker 03

  Dave, will you take this?

• 1:08:37Yasi Salek?

  Dave, um, he had been an apprentice at George Lucas's Industrial Lights and Magic Visual Effects Company and a P A on the return of the Jedi movie.

• 1:08:47Speaker 03

  I'm sweating.

• 1:08:48Yasi Salek?

  And then by the time we're here.

• 1:08:50Speaker 03

  I'm from there. Okay. This is my, this is there. He was playing in my backyard.

• 1:08:55Yasi Salek?

  Can you believe?

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  Skywalker Ranch, Marin County, California.

• 1:09:00Yasi Salek?

  By the time this video gets directed, he had done a bunch of music videos, including motherfucking She's Like the Wind, Patrick Swayze.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  I love how that's where you go.

• 1:09:09Yasi Salek?

  Cause I love that song and it's a great video. Well, okay. Gypsy King's Mumbleo, also really important to young Yasi's life. That was the first concert I ever attended with my parents, Gypsy King. Paula Abdul, straight up.

• 1:09:21Speaker 03

  Okay. You know what? I have to say there's more important Paula Abdul collaboration than that, that he did. He also did Paula Abdul's The Way That You Love Me, which there are two versions of. For some reason, they released one video and then a year later did another one. And it's like, it's like the same video almost. It's just reshoot.

• 1:09:40Yasi Salek?

  Forgotten to time.

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  Different lighting. And I'm like, was this Fincher being like, I don't like that video. I would shoot it different. Now let's do it over.

• 1:09:48Yasi Salek?

  And you, and you know what? If you're Paula Abdul, you could, because I think it's impossible to overstate how massive she was in the eighties.

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  Really massive. I think that both videos are extraordinarily aesthetically significant to David Fincher and his style.

• 1:10:05Yasi Salek?

  He's done some good videos. He also did the American Cancer Society commercial with the smoking fetus.

• 1:10:12Speaker 03

  He was in his Benjamin Button bag way back then.

• 1:10:15Yasi Salek?

  Um, so Madonna links up with David Fincher, not, and it will not be the last time, thank God, but she says she wants to do a video based on two things. A 1921 black and white photograph by Lewis Hine called Powerhouse Mechanic and Fritz Lang's 1927 film Metropolis.

• 1:10:33Speaker 03

  You'd probably recognize that photo. It's like a muscle guy.

• 1:10:35Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:36Speaker 03

  And he's like pushing a big lever. Okay.

• 1:10:39Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. She told Molly.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  Gears around him.

• 1:10:42Yasi Salek?

  Totally. She said, I definitely wanted to have that influence, that look. All the men, the workers sort of diligently, methodically working away. It's, I mean, it's so perfect. It was like, it looks like she's like the queen bee in a beehive. And all the men are just like hot and like working, toiling away.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  There's a lot of this kind of like German expressionist play going on in the eighties. I think that there was something happening with like, maybe it was like the rise of the synthesizer in pop music. And like, you know, we talked about, with Depeche Mode, like we talked about this, like if like-

• 1:11:17Yasi Salek?

  German sensibilities.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, like what is the, the Depeche Mode album cover that's like very that vibe?

• 1:11:23Yasi Salek?

  Oh, yes. It's a crazy album cover.

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  You know, there was like the Apple commercial for the Mac that Ridley Scott directed. There was like Sony ads at that time kind of had this vibe. It felt very like in the air. Brazil, the Terry Gilliam film.

• 1:11:38Yasi Salek?

  Yep. You're, you're nailing it.

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  It was like the right around the era of like, kind of like post-modernist Bauhaus having like a big resurgence.

• 1:11:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, because the eighties had such that look of like furniture and style. You're so right. This video, really formative to young Yasi. I was like, when will I be in a gorgeous pinstripe suit, dancing in a factory with a lot of hot men?

• 1:12:04Speaker 03

  I'm gonna crawl on all fours and drink the milk.

• 1:12:09Yasi Salek?

  That was David Fincher's idea, for her to crawl like a cat and like from the bowl of milk and pour the milk over herself. Bet it was Dave. Bet it was Dave.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  The tracking shot of Madonna crawling underneath the dining room table is one of the most important shots in the history of pop music videos. It is so influential. So many people have copied it or done other versions of it.

• 1:12:37Yasi Salek?

  Oh my God, just when you said that, I have had like 80 flashes in my head of future music videos.

• 1:12:43Speaker 03

  Drag queens on Drag Race crawling on all, the crawling on all fours thing. This is the birth of it. Pay some motherfucking respect.

• 1:12:55Yasi Salek?

  Respect on her name and, and Dave, Dave's name as well. This video cost $5 million and at the time was the most expensive video ever made.

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:04Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Speaker 03

  They don't do that anymore.

• 1:13:05Yasi Salek?

  They don't do that anymore.

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  And that's without inflation?

• 1:13:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that's at the time.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  So it was twenty million dollars. Got it.

• 1:13:12Yasi Salek?

  Um, and we talked about this a little bit before, but the reason her hair is back to bleached blonde is because she had to change it for Breathless Mahoney and Dick Tracy.

• 1:13:21Speaker 03

  Yes, and right now we are in May, I believe, which is the time that the movie wrapped. So she would have just finished it.

• 1:13:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  And what's happening is like, this is when Madonna's acting work is really starting to come into her pop music work in kind of like a new way, I feel like. And prior to this, like Madonna was always seen as like, she was definitely seen as a trendsetter. She had like her own look and then everybody would copy it. There were the like Madonna bees.

• 1:13:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  Were what they would be called. But this is the era that came to be called her chameleon era.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  And it's because her image, her shape shifting image during this album cycle. And what's funny to me.

• 1:14:03Yasi Salek?

  Wasn't planned.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  It was not intentional. It was circumstantial.

• 1:14:07Yasi Salek?

  Right, because there's a couple of singles from this album.

• 1:14:11Speaker 03

  I mean, somewhat intentional, but it was like, you know, she could have worn a wig, but she was like, no, I'm doing blonde for Dick Tracy. That's gonna be the look now.

• 1:14:18Yasi Salek?

  I think God interferes though, babe, because like, again, I think Madonna is all powerful and can do anything, but I don't know if the bleach blonde wasn't happening, if it would have popped the way it did.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  She knew on some level.

• 1:14:28Yasi Salek?

  People are really drawn to a bleach blonde woman. And it was, and it's started to give the, like, this is the first, like glamorous Jean Harlow-esque, you know, vibes that really start to like be the Madonna thing.

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  And we have to give props to Peter Savick, who was Madonna's hairstylist at this time.

• 1:14:50Yasi Salek?

  I don't know how he did it. Can he do my hair? Because I don't know how you go from dark to blonde, really?

• 1:14:54Speaker 03

  He lives in Los Angeles. He's still working.

• 1:14:56Yasi Salek?

  Sir, I need, I wanna go blonde so bad, but I've had so much black dye in my hair. I don't know if we're gonna be able to.

• 1:15:01Speaker 03

  A legendary hairstylist. He did Helmet Langs first runway show.

• 1:15:04Yasi Salek?

  Wow.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  Um, he created The Hair in Single White Female, a movie that is about hair. He also did Winona Ryder's Hair and Reality Bites. I know you love that hair.

• 1:15:14Yasi Salek?

  Say, say no more, fam. Say no more.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  Sorry, I know this is band splaying and not hair splaying.

• 1:15:19Yasi Salek?

  Very important.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  But when you invite a homosexual on the podcast, we're gonna talk about hair. And I could go on and on about Peter Savick.

• 1:15:28Yasi Salek?

  He's a magician.

• 1:15:29Speaker 03

  He's it, baby.

• 1:15:30Yasi Salek?

  He's a magician. Because lifting

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  Hi Peter, if you see us.

• 1:15:33Yasi Salek?

  lifting that dark Back to Blonde so immediately. And then Vincent Patterson should be shouted out for this video because he did the choreography, which is obviously iconic, but also he is responsible for the crotch grab, which heard around the world, the crotch grab scene around the world. She had been kidding with him during rehearsals about Michael Jackson, who obviously was the big, you know, crotch grabbing pioneer. And she was like, what should I do right now with my hand? And he was like, why don't you grab your balls? You've got bigger balls than anyone else here. And so she did, and it's a really great part of the video. All right, the next song is, it's hard for me to say, but this is in my, this is in my top five. This is sometimes number one, but it's absolutely in my top five. And it's Love Song featuring Prince.

• 1:16:16Yasi Salek?

  I cannot get tired of this song. This song sounds like it was made yesterday. This song is so timeless, fresh and modern. It is like, I'm obsessed with it. I don't think it's like fair actually to put it as a favorite Madonna song because it also is, it's so Prince sounding as well. But it's just, I just come back to it over and over again. It's so simple, it's so sexy. They both sound so cool. I love it.

• 1:16:45Speaker 03

  To me, it's a song that kind of exists. It's on the album, but it could live outside the album. You could pop it out of the album and it just is its own thing or something.

• 1:16:55Yasi Salek?

  I agree.

• 1:16:56Speaker 03

  You know, I love that it's on the album. It definitely contributes to the kind of eclectic nature of the album. And like this kind of like

• 1:17:04Yasi Salek?

  boho.

• 1:17:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, the boho.

• 1:17:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Speaker 03

  The funky boho hippie vibe, if you will.

• 1:17:09Yasi Salek?

  Well, I think there was supposed to be more Prince collaboration, but this is the only thing, this is the only actual song that they yielded.

• 1:17:16Speaker 03

  I said that it's like kind of a soundtrack song to me. Like I could hear this in a movie if it wasn't probably so expensive to license due to the billion dollars that are on the track.

• 1:17:28Yasi Salek?

  It would be such a good, such a good score moment. Oh, it's so cool.

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  Like if it was like the Ryan Murphy love story and it was a scene where they're like vintage shopping and being really goofy. Like that would be like a perfect needle drop, you know what I mean?

• 1:17:44Yasi Salek?

  It's too like salt, it's like.

• 1:17:46Speaker 03

  It's so nineties in this crazy way. It's the most viscerally coffee house nineties.

• 1:17:53Yasi Salek?

  Do you really think so?

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  Java, mocha.

• 1:17:55Yasi Salek?

  I find it to be so, I find it to be so like, I feel like because it's so simple, it's almost like doesn't sound of any time.

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  Her vocal harmonies on it are really amazing toward the end. It like builds.

• 1:18:18Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Speaker 03

  Like the way that they'll build it and stop.

• 1:18:20Yasi Salek?

  Exactly. That's why I find it very, to be a very sexual song for that reason. It's like big, it's like so smart how it works on like a musical level to sound sexual.

• 1:18:28Speaker 03

  It's a really dynamic.

• 1:18:29Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 03

  Song. A really unusual song for Madonna at this time, I feel like. It was really, it's kind of a swerve.

• 1:18:36Yasi Salek?

  And I feel like it makes sense. It's like, if you're gonna collaborate with Prince, like you should do something weird, you know?

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:18:41Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. She said she went to a studio in Minnesota and they worked on some stuff and then she was like, I hate Minnesota. Um, I'm coming home. There was actually also a podcast I listened to and I can't place it, but one of Prince's like later girlfriends was like Madonna asked him to make a video and he said no.

• 1:19:00Yasi Salek?

  And I was like, well, we don't, you don't have any evidence of that, but.

• 1:19:04Speaker 03

  Well, considering that his other contributions are uncredited, it sounds like he is good at saying no.

• 1:19:09Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. He was like, no, thank you. They asked her in an interview, since Prince is the preeminent pop spiritualist, the two of you have any discussions about religion? She said, we never talk about religion or politics, but Love Song does have a spirituality about it, the kind that exists between two people. It's really about that push and pull of a relationship, the back and forth. I love you, I hate you, I want you to get away from me. You build me up and tear me down, that constant rubbing.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  Religion and sex.

• 1:19:33Yasi Salek?

  I liked how Steve Bray said in an interview that they asked him to work on it and he was like, I can't be a prince. I can't do it. He was like such a big Prince fan that he was like too scared. He was like not emotionally ready.

• 1:19:44Speaker 03

  That happens sometimes.

• 1:19:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. The next song is Till Death Do Us Part.

• 1:19:51Speaker 03

  Okay, I love this song.

• 1:19:53Yasi Salek?

  Me too.

• 1:19:53Speaker 03

  But it's within the context of this album. It feels a little behind pace of where she had gotten to with her sounds. Like it sounds like it could have been on like the Who's That Girl soundtrack.

• 1:20:06Yasi Salek?

  Well, I think what's interesting about this album, it is a bridge album. There are like several moments on here that are like, like we kind of talked about this. This is like somehow both an eighties and nineties album.

• 1:20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:20:17Yasi Salek?

  At once, because it has elements of like Till Death Do Us Part, Dear Jesse, Keep It Together is an eighties song.

• 1:20:24Speaker 03

  It has this tension and it's like reflected in the like, the blonde versus brunette, like the previous like pop star diva Madonna, the like hippie, like deep spiritual Madonna. And it's like, almost like it doesn't know what it wants to be, but that tension is what makes it exciting.

• 1:20:40Yasi Salek?

  Totally. And it's like, she's all of those things. That's why it's cool, you know? Yeah, I love this song. The fucking, the drama of the glass break at the end.

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  The melody is very seductive.

• 1:20:59Yasi Salek?

  I thought it was interesting that this song could be, you know, you could leap to the conclusion that it was at least partially inspired by her marriage.

• 1:21:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:09Yasi Salek?

  And that she told.

• 1:21:10Speaker 03

  That was the selling point.

• 1:21:11Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:21:12Speaker 03

  For sure. She knew she had to have some song on the album that would be like, look, a breakup song, like Till Death Do Us Part, it's sort of. I don't want to say cynical, but she was definitely like.

• 1:21:23Yasi Salek?

  Well, she must have been writing from that place, you know?

• 1:21:26Speaker 03

  She put the song forward as that.

• 1:21:27Yasi Salek?

  Right. And she said that she, Sean heard it before she put it out and she said, yes, and he loves it.

• 1:21:35Speaker 03

  Well, where's the fun in that?

• 1:21:36Yasi Salek?

  I know. She said Sean is very keen.

• 1:21:38Speaker 03

  Should have pissed him off a little more.

• 1:21:39Yasi Salek?

  On being brutally frank in his work. Well, it's kind of crazy because this song is like, the implication is there's domestic abuse.

• 1:21:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:21:47Yasi Salek?

  So you're like.

• 1:21:56Yasi Salek?

  Okay, Promise to Try, why don't you just take an ice cream scooper and just fucking stick it right in my chest and take my heart out and put it on the fucking table?

• 1:22:03Speaker 03

  When I listen to Promise to Try, I'm like, this is what makes us different.

• 1:22:06Yasi Salek?

  You and Madonna, this is the only thing. This is the one dividing.

• 1:22:10Speaker 03

  This is, I pretty much am her, except I'm like, I really admire it that someone can be this sincere and vulnerable.

• 1:22:19Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it's not really a thing.

• 1:22:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was just like, it makes me uncomfortable.

• 1:22:23Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I understand. Not me.

• 1:22:26Speaker 03

  I'm like, where's the punchline?

• 1:22:28Yasi Salek?

  I'd be crying on podcasts and stuff. I think it's really beautiful. Also, it's like, the idea that we talked about a bit in part one and that she's, she's talked about many times that like, this wound, this like, lack of a mother wound, you know, had a huge part in creating her entire personality and her entire, what she wanted out of life because, okay, if I don't have my mother's love, I'll have the world's love, you know? And then sort of trying to return to that well to like, understand yourself.

• 1:23:08Yasi Salek?

  I obviously haven't experienced it, thank God, my mother is still alive. But to lose your mother at five years old, six years old, like, the mythology that

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  That's insane.

• 1:23:16Yasi Salek?

  would build around how much of your life you've lived without that person, like, they become an apparition, you know?

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:23Yasi Salek?

  You barely have enough memories to like, cobble together a person.

• 1:23:26Speaker 03

  And that's what the song is about. It's like, I hope I don't forget you, basically. Oof.

• 1:23:33Speaker 03

  I can't.

• 1:23:33Yasi Salek?

  She is lydial.

• 1:23:34Speaker 03

  It's so beautiful, it's so sad. It's also like, a really incredible top line melody, like

• 1:23:41Yasi Salek?

  It's one of her greatest strengths.

• 1:23:43Speaker 03

  For a ballad, it's so evocative.

• 1:23:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:45Speaker 03

  It's haunting, it's like, it's hopeful.

• 1:23:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:50Speaker 03

  But it's so fragile. And like, that to me, I'm like, don't take this shit for granted. Like, some people spend their whole careers trying to write a song like that.

• 1:23:59Yasi Salek?

  This is a very rare type of song to make.

• 1:24:01Speaker 03

  It's crazy.

• 1:24:02Yasi Salek?

  And most people don't, can't make this kind of song.

• 1:24:04Speaker 03

  My brain, I was like, if she had just saved this one for A League of Their Own, she would have won the original song Oscar.

• 1:24:10Yasi Salek?

  Honestly. Although it has literally nothing to do with, um... The premise of.

• 1:24:16Speaker 03

  Right. And they didn't, she didn't get one for Live to Tell, so it's like, get out of here.

• 1:24:21Yasi Salek?

  One of the best songs of all time, one of the most enduring ballads. Yeah, Promise to Try is God Tear, God Tear song, she, it's just Pat Leonard playing the piano and her singing. And he said that the record, the record button got pushed twice. It's like really just like.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:24:35Yasi Salek?

  She was very like that. Like I've read many of her collaborators.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  She bled on the track.

• 1:24:39Yasi Salek?

  They were like, she's a one track, she's a one take diva. She's just like.

• 1:24:43Speaker 03

  That said, the song is too sad for me.

• 1:24:45Yasi Salek?

  You skip it.

• 1:24:45Speaker 03

  I, I will skip it. It's getting, it's a little like on the level of the Sarah McLachlan Humane Society commercial type of thing.

• 1:24:52Yasi Salek?

  I don't know if you noticed, but we have an entire.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  I don't need to be that sad.

• 1:24:55Yasi Salek?

  Oh no, it's not in this episode, but you guys get excited. I have an entire triangulation story for you involving the Sarah McLachlan in the arms of an angel, adopt these dogs or you fucking will go rotten hell and a Madonna song. And I'm, I'm gonna bring it all together, but it's not till, it's not till Real Life.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  We're on the same wavelength.

• 1:25:15Yasi Salek?

  Um.

• 1:25:16Speaker 03

  Now we can get to your favorite song.

• 1:25:17Yasi Salek?

  You know what? I will not fucking have you come on my show and say a negative word about one of the greatest pieces of pop confection ever put to track, Cherish.

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  There is something that is so throwback about it that it risks being corny.

• 1:25:38Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:25:39Speaker 03

  I compared it to like Cher's The Shoop Shoop Song.

• 1:25:41Yasi Salek?

  Which is also a great song.

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  Of course it is, but it's like, that's like a category of pop song that's a little doo woppy.

• 1:25:46Yasi Salek?

  True Blue and all, a great chunk of True Blue is that as well.

• 1:25:52Speaker 03

  I know, it's true.

• 1:25:53Yasi Salek?

  Why, why not? Cherish is not allowed. Why come from my beloved Cherish?

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  Maybe it's the horns? I don't know. There's some, it's, but.

• 1:26:00Yasi Salek?

  This man, Stephen Bray and Patrick Leonard, they love a horns.

• 1:26:03Speaker 03

  But also that was me, like the way that I conceive of Cherish in my lizard brain and then listening to it, you're just like, it is a perfect pop song.

• 1:26:13Yasi Salek?

  Perfect pop song.

• 1:26:14Speaker 03

  There's no way she could have not recorded this and not put this on this album. It's like, when you're hearing it, you're like, it's irresistible.

• 1:26:20Yasi Salek?

  Irresistible.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  It sounds like a billion dollars.

• 1:26:23Yasi Salek?

  I have to put it on 12 times in a row before I'm satisfied. One time is never enough.

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  And like.

• 1:26:30Speaker 03

  For me, I really think that like, it's deceptively complex.

• 1:26:36Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Speaker 03

  Structurally.

• 1:26:38Yasi Salek?

  Thank you.

• 1:26:39Speaker 03

  Um, and lyrically.

• 1:26:41Yasi Salek?

  And emotionally.

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  It's really brilliant.

• 1:26:43Yasi Salek?

  Yes, and if you.

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  It's postmodern, it's referential. She's like, the lyrics are all referencing like, classic old love songs and she's bringing them up and bringing them back.

• 1:26:52Yasi Salek?

  Thank you.

• 1:26:54Speaker 03

  Burning Love, Elvis Presley, Two Hearts is Bruce Springsteen, but I'm gonna say Stacy Q on that one. But like, you know, Cupid, Sam Cooke, You Are My Destiny, like, these are like, old standards that she's like, kind of tossing out and making these references to. And I really think the melody on the verses is fucking incredible.

• 1:27:23Yasi Salek?

  It's amazing.

• 1:27:24Speaker 03

  And how it kind of moves around.

• 1:27:27Yasi Salek?

  Also, it has a thing that a lot of my favorite songs have, which I think you have to have a fine tuned sense of emotion to really grasp it. But it is a deceptively positive song that actually holds within it a lot of pain, because.

• 1:27:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's rich.

• 1:27:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, this song is about delusion. The song is like, she wrote it while doing Speed the Plow when her marriage was in fucking shambles, okay? The shit is, the train is falling off the tracks and she has this like, last burst of delulu to be like, but we're so in love, it could, you know, like, it's love.

• 1:28:08Speaker 03

  It's so funny.

• 1:28:09Yasi Salek?

  And you can hear it, you know?

• 1:28:10Speaker 03

  Like, in your notes, you have a quote from her, she says, "I wrote it in a super hyper positive state of mind that I knew was not going to last."

• 1:28:18Yasi Salek?

  Like, Who Amongst Us Has Not?

• 1:28:19Speaker 03

  And I wrote down, "This is hilarious and I wonder if she was on diet pills or something."

• 1:28:22Yasi Salek?

  No, she was, she was high on, Who Amongst Us Has Not Been High on the manic delusion that a love will last when you know it's not going to.

• 1:28:30Speaker 03

  She's like, "I'm in love and I'm on Broadway."

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  Just like totally deranged.

• 1:28:35Yasi Salek?

  And someone gave me some Dexies. Sandra gave me some Dexies.

• 1:28:49Yasi Salek?

  Also, we didn't even mention that, obviously, the Cherish part comes from the song, the association song, Cherish, that starts. Cherish is the word I use.

• 1:28:58Speaker 03

  One of the great songs.

• 1:29:00Yasi Salek?

  Cherish is the word I used to describe. And it's the same tempo as True Blue, which is why it has that same... I will not take any Cherish slander. Let's talk about the video, though.

• 1:29:13Speaker 03

  Directed by one Herbert Ritz, his first video he ever did.

• 1:29:16Yasi Salek?

  Herbert Ritz was called up from the photography leagues to the moving picture. And I love this. Okay, I also, I'm sorry, I don't want to play into like the savior narrative, but I just love the fact that she had learned that he was HIV positive, and then this is like, kind of, her reaction was like, I think you should...

• 1:29:37Speaker 03

  Gay mermaids.

• 1:29:38Yasi Salek?

  Well, I think you should make, I think you should make a video. Like, I think you should do this other, you know, like, not that, I don't think moving pictures and elevated art from photography is not what I'm talking about, but like, she was kind of like, why don't you, why don't you, why don't I give you this cool opportunity, you know, like, let's, let's like, let you get into something fun, you know? And he obviously was like, I don't know how to do that, I'm a photographer, but I thought it was very cool that he was like, okay, yes, I'll do it. And he was on a job in Hawaii, photographing Stephanie Seymour in a mermaid costume made by Sharon Seminare, who is the same woman that will make the mermaid tales for Cherish. And that's what kind of got in his head. He got really obsessed with mermaids, and he was filming with a Super 8 camera, and he was like, okay, I can do this.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  So he didn't run those photos, he...

• 1:30:24Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, what happened to them? I know he was doing the shoot, but...

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  He was doing, it was a shoot for the June 1989 issue of Vogue.

• 1:30:30Yasi Salek?

  Okay, of course.

• 1:30:32Speaker 03

  I'm like, I have the info, don't worry. Polly Mellon styled the shoot. The mermaid tale pictures are not in the shoot? They piggybacked it onto the shoot, which is a term that we use in the biz. But he was-

• 1:30:45Yasi Salek?

  What does that mean?

• 1:30:47Speaker 03

  Like, you're doing a shoot that someone's paying for.

• 1:30:50Yasi Salek?

  Right, okay.

• 1:30:51Speaker 03

  And then you're like, I'm gonna do all these extra photos.

• 1:30:53Yasi Salek?

  Right, he's like, I have Stephanie Seymour here, I can use her, I'll just, okay.

• 1:30:57Speaker 03

  And so I think the mermaid tail pictures of her were like a test for the Cherish video. He had that in mind when he was doing it.

• 1:31:05Yasi Salek?

  That's so cool. It's really cool, this video. Like, what he was able to do-

• 1:31:11Speaker 03

  It's legendary.

• 1:31:12Yasi Salek?

  The tails weighed like, something insane, right?

• 1:31:15Speaker 03

  And the way the guys are swimming and they're popping up is like amazing.

• 1:31:19Yasi Salek?

  He said because they had to be carried into the water, but once they were in the water, they could move really well. And they were mostly, besides Tony Ward, fucking one of the hottest men to ever exist, they were water pullers, players from Pepperdine, so obviously they were extremely good swimmers.

• 1:31:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:31:33Yasi Salek?

  And a merchild, there was a child. This is an informative moment to my young sexuality. It also makes sense why I would fall in love with gay men multiple times in my life, but, hot, babe.

• 1:31:47Speaker 03

  Totally hot. Part of the lore of the Cherish video also is that Kim Kardashian was there.

• 1:31:53Yasi Salek?

  Excuse me?

• 1:31:53Speaker 03

  I don't know if you've heard this story.

• 1:31:54Yasi Salek?

  No, do go on.

• 1:31:55Speaker 03

  Um, with Alison Azoff.

• 1:31:58Yasi Salek?

  So how old is she at this point?

• 1:32:00Speaker 03

  I don't know. An adolescent, yeah.

• 1:32:03Yasi Salek?

  No, nine. Eight!

• 1:32:07Speaker 03

  So I don't know-

• 1:32:07Yasi Salek?

  Kim Kardashian's only one year older than me.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  I think it was Kim's family's beach house.

• 1:32:13Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 1:32:15Speaker 03

  Maybe it was the Azoffs.

• 1:32:17Yasi Salek?

  Kardashian's.

• 1:32:18Speaker 03

  Or Bruce? Was this the Bruce era? I don't know. Sorry, Kim.

• 1:32:22Yasi Salek?

  I'm sorry, I'm not a Kardashianologist, I'm a band's man.

• 1:32:24Speaker 03

  Well, anyway, they had a beach house at Paradise Cove in Malibu, and it was next door to Madonna's manager's beach house.

• 1:32:33Yasi Salek?

  Freddie DeMan.

• 1:32:34Speaker 03

  Freddie DeMan. And that was where they filmed the video, and Kim has told the story that she remembers sitting with Alison on the stairs from their beach house, just watching Madonna film the Cherish video, like freaking out as a kid.

• 1:32:46Yasi Salek?

  God, I see what you give to other people.

• 1:32:48Speaker 03

  I know, because I'm like, what did she do in a past life to have just the most blessed existence of anybody among us? It's crazy.

• 1:32:56Yasi Salek?

  She deserved it. Maybe I'll get that the next round. Okay, I'm gonna go on to Dear Jesse, and I'm gonna say something. I love this song, I don't care what anyone says. Is it like a top 10 Madonna song? Obviously not, okay? Is it a little cornballs? The answer is yes.

• 1:33:13Speaker 03

  It's insane.

• 1:33:14Yasi Salek?

  But it's insane and I love it. And it's so crazy that you put this on here. And also, going back to the overarching themes of this album and the connecting with your inner child, the child who lost your mom.

• 1:33:29Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 1:33:29Yasi Salek?

  You know, here's a beautiful little song that Jessie, the titular Jessie is Pat Leonard's daughter, actually. Her name was Jessie. Um, but she's just talking to herself, you know? This is talking to your inner child.

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  It's a little delulu heavenly creatures fantasy land. Um, Jennifer Connelly in Labyrinth. I'm a fairy princess.

• 1:33:58Yasi Salek?

  Pink elephants and lemonade. Dear Jessie, hear the laughter running through the love parade. Candy kisses on a sunny day.

• 1:34:04Speaker 03

  When you first hear it, it's a little bit shocking. Especially in the context of the album and where her career was and what she was doing.

• 1:34:11Yasi Salek?

  We were literally down on our knees. I'm gonna take you there just like 12 minutes ago. And now we're in the land of make believe.

• 1:34:19Speaker 03

  Tea party. And when you read that it was being, that the reference was like the Beatles, Yellow Submarine. You're kind of like, oh, got it. And then it hits a little different. And it is really a smart, interesting song.

• 1:34:31Yasi Salek?

  Also, for the pacing of the album, I think it's pretty nice. Like, you know, you go to cherish and to Dear Jessie. And then like she smacks you in your fucking mouth with, oh, father.

• 1:34:41Speaker 03

  I mean, that's the thing. It's essentially to me, the song is an interlude.

• 1:34:44Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Speaker 03

  It's like, this is the part of the show where she goes off and does a costume change. And then some kids come out and do this weird little play thing. And then it's like, the way that it transitions into, oh, father makes the whole song major. Cause it goes straight in.

• 1:34:58Yasi Salek?

  It slows down the wah, like the carnival music, right? And then it goes right into, oh, father, which my arm hairs standing up again.

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  But also like, I always loved, oh, father because of Truth or Dare.

• 1:35:09Yasi Salek?

  I love.

• 1:35:10Speaker 03

  But I wouldn't listen to it on, in the album context. And so you know that song so well and you know how it starts at that music at the beginning. But like, dun, dun, dun, dun. And it's like that it comes off of Dear Jessie. You're sort of like, holy fuck.

• 1:35:30Yasi Salek?

  This song?

• 1:35:31Speaker 03

  I'm like, can I get a minute? My god, okay.

• 1:35:33Yasi Salek?

  The melodrama that I would sing, I just need you to picture me. I am 11 years old, whenever I had this 10, 11 years old. The melodrama that I'm bringing to my bedroom, that I am oppressed by my parents.

• 1:35:45Speaker 03

  You're a nun.

• 1:35:45Yasi Salek?

  In my-

• 1:35:46Speaker 03

  We're all joining the convent.

• 1:35:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, but I'm like, my parents are oppressors because they will not let me go to sleepovers. And I'm singing, "Oh Father," like with my full 11-year-old lungs. You can't hurt me now.

• 1:36:03Yasi Salek?

  I got away from you.

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 1:36:16Yasi Salek?

  So what a banger, man.

• 1:36:18Speaker 03

  It hits different for girls.

• 1:36:20Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I think so. I think so.

• 1:36:23Yasi Salek?

  I think so, but uh.

• 1:36:24Speaker 03

  But I love the drama of it, of course. It's like one of her most dramatic songs.

• 1:36:28Yasi Salek?

  It's another one where you kind of feel like she's in your tears singing it.

• 1:36:32Speaker 03

  It reminds me of, this is like a personal reference, reminds me of my niece, who's so dramatic.

• 1:36:37Yasi Salek?

  She said she wrote this during a dark headspace.

• 1:36:41Yasi Salek?

  Say no. You don't say as they have.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  And she was like, it was about her father, but it was about Sean.

• 1:36:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:36:48Speaker 03

  It was about like men.

• 1:36:50Yasi Salek?

  Hurt people, hurt people. Somebody hurt you too.

• 1:36:54Yasi Salek?

  She also said it was the second half of Live to Tell, which I thought was interesting. Like, it's like a one, a package, dealing with male authority figures.

• 1:37:03Speaker 03

  Both sublime ballads.

• 1:37:05Yasi Salek?

  She said, "I have not resolved my electro complex." The end of the "Oh Father" video. You've seen the video.

• 1:37:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:37:10Yasi Salek?

  It's bizarre. The, okay, another David Fincher moment. I think David Fincher-

• 1:37:15Speaker 03

  The snow, the snowy hill, it's the Citizen Kane video.

• 1:37:17Yasi Salek?

  Yes, but, okay, so David Fincher wanted this to be a single, I think. Is that correct? Is that your understanding? Because remember later on, she makes David Fincher do a last-minute video for her because this video didn't, this single didn't chart in the top 10, and she blamed him.

• 1:37:35Speaker 03

  The last-minute video was for a song called Vogue.

• 1:37:38Yasi Salek?

  Vogue, yes.

• 1:37:38Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:37:39Yasi Salek?

  I was trying to build up some anticipation, babe. Okay, I thought we were-

• 1:37:43Speaker 03

  You may have heard of Vogue.

• 1:37:45Yasi Salek?

  They would have to wait to hear the answer. Thanks for spoiling it. This video is psychotic.

• 1:37:51Speaker 03

  I think it's a gorgeous video.

• 1:37:52Yasi Salek?

  It's gorgeous.

• 1:37:53Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 1:37:54Yasi Salek?

  But it is-

• 1:37:54Speaker 03

  It's one of my favorite Madonna songs, so to me, I like how cinematic it is, that it's telling a story.

• 1:37:59Yasi Salek?

  It's like a film.

• 1:38:00Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. It's a little like the Pepsi commercial, like when she loves to be like, "It's me as a child."

• 1:38:05Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:38:05Speaker 03

  A perfect blonde child, and it's like, "Honey."

• 1:38:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Um, it's, it's really, and she looks stunning. Something's going on with her roots in which they're like four inches long, and I think, I guess that was on purpose, or maybe it was another time where she was trying to go dark again. The thing that I can't get out of my nightmares.

• 1:38:22Speaker 03

  The lips being so shiny?

• 1:38:23Yasi Salek?

  No, the, we, the cherub statue that is a statue, but the heads are real children singing.

• 1:38:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's the two little boys.

• 1:38:32Yasi Salek?

  So creepy.

• 1:38:32Speaker 03

  It's so beautiful. I love it. I understand it. Fincher is like my guy.

• 1:38:37Yasi Salek?

  But I love the like, I love the scene with her in the, her mother's closet, and she, she's like, wearing the pearls and gets caught and the pearls go everywhere.

• 1:38:46Speaker 03

  Shaking her.

• 1:38:47Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:48Yasi Salek?

  And then she's laying on, is she laying on the grave? Is that what she's laying on? The adult Madonna?

• 1:38:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:38:53Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Keep it together. I fuck with this song heavy, as I wrote in the doc.

• 1:38:58Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 1:39:00Yasi Salek?

  I've got brothers, sisters too.

• 1:39:05Speaker 03

  Very-

• 1:39:05Yasi Salek?

  Stuck in the middle, tell you what I'm gonna do.

• 1:39:06Speaker 03

  My association with that song largely comes from the Blonde Ambition Tour, um, The Clockwork Orange, Jean-Paul Gaultier.

• 1:39:14Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:14Speaker 03

  We'll get there.

• 1:39:15Yasi Salek?

  But it's also like, so autobi-, it's like, really like, you wanna know about Madonna's like, mechanizing principle? It's, "I grew up in a house with seventeen children, and I'm gonna get out of here. I'm stuck in the middle, I'm not getting enough attention, I need to get out of here."

• 1:39:27Speaker 03

  It's also the perfect vibe shift from "Oh Father."

• 1:39:30Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:30Speaker 03

  Into that song.

• 1:39:31Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 1:39:41Yasi Salek?

  And then, I'm sorry, I love "Pray for Spanish Eyes." I will not apologize. I like it when Madonna indulges her idea that she is spiritually Hispanic.

• 1:39:54Speaker 03

  Latina.

• 1:39:55Yasi Salek?

  She is a Latin.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  I buy it.

• 1:39:59Yasi Salek?

  She does say something about the barrio in this song, I just want to mention.

• 1:40:05Yasi Salek?

  I have no idea what this song is about. To this day, I don't know what she's talking about.

• 1:40:09Speaker 03

  It's about Latin cock, honey. It's Latin inches.

• 1:40:12Yasi Salek?

  That's what you guys said, but again, I feel like you have a different lens on things.

• 1:40:16Speaker 03

  I just like to be a little filthy on dance floor sometimes.

• 1:40:18Yasi Salek?

  How many lives will they have to take? How matartic? Who's taking? Is this about war? I don't understand. In the Genius comments, which a lot of different kinds of people write on the Genius comments, says it's about AIDS.

• 1:40:32Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:40:33Yasi Salek?

  Which, okay.

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  Go off.

• 1:40:37Yasi Salek?

  And I fuck extremely heavily with Active Contrition. It's a perfect album closer. That is a Prince guitar solo reversed.

• 1:40:43Speaker 03

  Perfect title for the end of the album.

• 1:40:46Yasi Salek?

  She's reciting the Catholic prayer of forgiveness, but like over this like beat, and then there's like an interpolation of the gospel choir from Like a Prayer. There's the guitar by Prince kind of reversed. And then the outro is so fucking funny. When she's like, "I reserve, I reserve, I reserve, I resolve, I have a reservation, I have a reservation." What do you mean it's not on the computer? That's the end of the album.

• 1:41:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:12Yasi Salek?

  It's amazing.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  That's like a perfect capsule of what this album did to Catholic schoolchildren, including myself, which was like, we all knew that we hated Catholicism because we were in Catholic school. We hated all the rules. We loved sinning.

• 1:41:39Yasi Salek?

  We loved sinning.

• 1:41:40Speaker 03

  We love sinning.

• 1:41:41Yasi Salek?

  We love Spanish eyes.

• 1:41:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, we love confession because we love bragging about sinning.

• 1:41:46Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:41:46Speaker 03

  But like-

• 1:41:47Yasi Salek?

  We love drama.

• 1:41:48Speaker 03

  We know that we like hate Jesus and priests.

• 1:41:51Yasi Salek?

  Okay, well, I don't know if Madonna hates Jesus. She said she was very sexually attracted to Jesus.

• 1:41:55Speaker 03

  But then Madonna makes it all seem really like glamorous and cool and like fun. And then you're like, do I love being Catholic? Like, wait, is being Catholic fierce?

• 1:42:06Yasi Salek?

  It is fierce.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  And like- How many pop stars since then have mined Catholic imagery?

• 1:42:13Yasi Salek?

  Don't get me started on how I did this, this conversation with a person I will not name. And they were like a young person and they were talking, we were talking about pop stars and they were talking about Rosalia and they were like, the new tour and they're like, have you, I've never seen a, a person incorporate this level of Catholic imagery into it. And I was like, I was like.

• 1:42:36Speaker 03

  You, you vomit?

• 1:42:37Yasi Salek?

  I did, I literally was like, can you imagine having the audacity?

• 1:42:42Speaker 03

  It's, I don't know if it's audacity or it just, they don't know. They don't know.

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

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• 1:43:20Yasi Salek?

  All right. June 1st, 1989. Rolling Stone announces that Madonna and Warren Beatty are dating.

• 1:43:28Speaker 03

  Cause that was their place.

• 1:43:31Speaker 03

  Rolling Stone announces, okay. Thanks for the announcement.

• 1:43:34Yasi Salek?

  Can you imagine that a world where Rolling Stone announced anything? It was so different. It had been going on for a few months though. Um, and she said of him in Vanity Fair, the next year in 1990, Warren understands the bullshit. He's been an icon for years. He's had a lot more practice at it than I have. Obviously somebody who hasn't experienced it would be more threatened by my fame than he is. You can't understand being hugely famous until it happens and then it's too late to decide if you want it or not. Warren's been a sex symbol for so long, he's just not surprised by anything.

• 1:44:06Speaker 03

  That's really interesting because it makes you feel like she relates to Warren, like Warren and Madonna are very similar. Personalities.

• 1:44:14Yasi Salek?

  You think so?

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  A little bit.

• 1:44:16Yasi Salek?

  I don't know that much about Warren Beatty's personality.

• 1:44:19Speaker 03

  Well, they're both very charismatic.

• 1:44:20Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:21Speaker 03

  You know, he has-

• 1:44:22Yasi Salek?

  Sex symbols.

• 1:44:23Speaker 03

  Sex symbols, absolutely. You know, he's been referred to as something of a womanizer. She's been referred to a little bit as a man eater, if you will. It's like they both are very controlling. They're both directors-

• 1:44:37Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  And stars. Like, I just, you can see that she was seeing something of herself in him, I think.

• 1:44:43Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:44:44Speaker 03

  Or looking at him with a certain, because he was older also, like admiration and kind of-

• 1:44:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, he was, he was quite a bit older. At this point, he was like fifty.

• 1:44:54Speaker 03

  You're, you really clock the age difference in Dick Tracy-

• 1:44:56Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:57Speaker 03

  Between them, and it's like, oh, hmm.

• 1:44:59Yasi Salek?

  I think a smooth twenty years.

• 1:45:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:01Yasi Salek?

  This is like my cynical view of it, is that like, I think coming out of something where, for better, for worse, she felt punished for her fame a little bit, or like, that it was a detriment to Sean Penn, you know? Like, this is the cynical part. I think Warren Beatty very much wanted that part of her, and that because it's desirable, especially in terms of promoting a movie.

• 1:45:30Speaker 03

  Well, it's funny what happens later in Truth or Dare, when you get this like window into their dynamic and relationship, where you can see him not liking it so much, too.

• 1:45:39Yasi Salek?

  Well, it's, I don't want to get ahead, but I hate that part so much, because I'm like, it's so, like, an actor being like, oh, when I do it, it's craft, but when you do it, like, when you want to be on camera, it's like frivolous and silly, and it's like, okay.

• 1:45:56Speaker 03

  Well, there's a difference. There's a difference between being an actor and being a musician or pop star, because when you're an actor, you're portraying other people.

• 1:46:04Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:46:05Speaker 03

  When you're a musician or a pop star, you're portraying yourself.

• 1:46:10Yasi Salek?

  You're performing yourself, for sure.

• 1:46:11Speaker 03

  And so there is like a certain openness that is maybe frowned upon by actors, because actors like to be able to be in character and not have it, could be conflated with their own personality.

• 1:46:23Yasi Salek?

  And also, Sean, apparently later in nineteen eighty-one, called her dating him a cliche.

• 1:46:29Speaker 03

  Just briefly to touch on that issue of Vanity Fair. It came out in April 1990, shot by Helmut Newton.

• 1:46:35Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 1:46:36Speaker 03

  And interviewed by Kevin Sessom, who is like kind of a legend for doing celebrity profiles. And something I thought was really funny in that article is she lays out her business organization.

• 1:46:45Yasi Salek?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:46Speaker 03

  And she says, "Boy Toys for my music. Siren is my film company and Slut Co. is for my videos."

• 1:46:54Yasi Salek?

  Slut Co. is for the music videos. I know. It's so good. Which she was like, "If that's what you're gonna call me, here I am making money off of it."

• 1:47:02Speaker 03

  Right. And at this point, the article states that she's made $90 million.

• 1:47:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:07Speaker 03

  So this is-

• 1:47:07Yasi Salek?

  In 1990, that's when that one comes out.

• 1:47:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's like, so this is sort of the beginning of Madonna being seen as a mogul, which is somewhat new in terms of the kind of pop celebrity audience dialectic.

• 1:47:22Yasi Salek?

  It predates Maverick, but just by a little bit.

• 1:47:26Speaker 03

  She also has a great quote where she's talking about criticism that was leveled at her for repurposing the male gaze. Like, I guess people were criticizing her at that time for like-

• 1:47:38Yasi Salek?

  You don't even mean repurposing the male gaze?

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  That she was mimicking the way that men look at women, the way that she was looking at herself. Like, that she would have the audacity to objectify herself the way that a man would.

• 1:47:51Yasi Salek?

  What did Kristen Stewart just say in that interview? It's so good. Where they were like, "Oh, women who like wanna tell their stories are called selfish" or whatever. And she's like, "Yeah, I'm selfish. Sorry, I wanted to have a self."

• 1:48:06Speaker 03

  Well, she says in it, "It has nothing to do with whether I'm a man or a woman. I think I am a sexual threat. And I think, if anything, there is a prejudice against that. I think that it's easier for people to embrace people who don't frighten them and poke at their insides and make them think about their own sexuality. I don't do things because I may be afraid of what people might think. The thing about me is what you see is what you get. I'm not hiding anything. That makes, like, my longevity."

• 1:48:30Yasi Salek?

  Amen, sister.

• 1:48:33Yasi Salek?

  Back to the Dick Tracy. The filming of it had been unpleasant for Madonna, is what I read.

• 1:48:38Speaker 03

  I'm gonna really try not to laugh. Go on.

• 1:48:41Yasi Salek?

  I know, imagining, I know.

• 1:48:43Speaker 03

  It's, if you guys watched Dick Tracy, like she says, she, she'll talk about how like Al Pacino was mean to her.

• 1:48:49Yasi Salek?

  Well, kind of like, within the structure of the scene was kind of pushed to keep, like, laying into her in character, but like, went really far.

• 1:48:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. But it's like, when you look at the scene and you see what Al Pacino looks like, and his prosthetic makeup, and it's like, the, I, it's so funny.

• 1:49:06Yasi Salek?

  This movie is.

• 1:49:08Speaker 03

  It's like a caricature of what she's described.

• 1:49:11Yasi Salek?

  It's, if you have not seen this film, and you didn't see it as a youth, even if you saw it as a youth, like I did, it, nothing will prepare you to watch it now, in the cold light of day of 2026, you're gonna be like.

• 1:49:21Speaker 03

  Phantasmagoric, nightmarish.

• 1:49:22Yasi Salek?

  What were people smoking?

• 1:49:24Speaker 03

  Acid.

• 1:49:25Yasi Salek?

  It's obviously very.

• 1:49:27Speaker 03

  Angel dust.

• 1:49:28Yasi Salek?

  Hundred percent. It's, but it's so clearly like, they were like, oh, we can do Batman 2, you know, like, because Batman had just come out, and been a huge smash success.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:39Yasi Salek?

  And what they didn't understand is like, Batman is like, a noirish, cool, like, gothy character.

• 1:49:47Speaker 03

  Dick Tracy is a really good movie.

• 1:49:51Yasi Salek?

  Sure, but like.

• 1:49:51Speaker 03

  Having just watched it.

• 1:49:53Yasi Salek?

  You put this man in a banana costume, and you're trying to hit the Batman levels, the Batman notes, it's not giving Batman.

• 1:50:00Speaker 03

  Dick Tracy walked, so the mask could run.

• 1:50:02Yasi Salek?

  That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Mandy Patinkin, who's in the film, another one of my guys, babe.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  So hot, go on.

• 1:50:10Yasi Salek?

  Also, in the first season of Criminal Minds, just so you guys know, Joe Montanha and Mandy Patinkin, these are my main Criminal Minds guys. Um, he recalled the scene where Al Pacino's character, Big Boy, and Breathless Mahoney were in a fight over a song, and they'd done it over and over, and he said, everyone was tired, and I couldn't tell why we were doing it over again, and finally Al started improvising. He really laces into Madonna, and all of a sudden, she just broke down. Warren said, cut, and gave them hugs. That wouldn't have happened unless he gave it time to happen. He literally, like, actually started crying, from.

• 1:50:40Speaker 03

  In the scene, he's also screaming at her to keep rehearsing, and then he gets arrested, and as he's being hauled off, he's like, this doesn't mean you got to stop, like, keep rehearsing.

• 1:50:49Speaker 05

  Come here.

• 1:50:51Speaker 05

  Next time I take his fingers, and I turn them into pretzels, I just might do the same thing to your face.

• 1:51:03Speaker 03

  Like, the idea of him being method with that big boy character, to me, is so...

• 1:51:08Yasi Salek?

  I also love that-

• 1:51:09Speaker 03

  It's like, you're becoming Popeye the Sailor Man.

• 1:51:10Yasi Salek?

  Warren Beatty was like, "Oh, my character doesn't need prosthetics."

• 1:51:15Yasi Salek?

  But it's like, because he was like-

• 1:51:16Speaker 03

  "I'll be beautiful, you can all look like freaks."

• 1:51:18Yasi Salek?

  "I need to emote."

• 1:51:20Speaker 03

  Dustin Hoffman as Mumbles is an incredible comedic performance.

• 1:51:25Yasi Salek?

  He's incredible.

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  It is a scream.

• 1:51:27Yasi Salek?

  Warren Beatty also, this is a quote from Madonna in the biography by Peter Biskin of Warren Beatty, "That Warren wanted to pour me into my dresses. He insisted I get fatter. I gained 10 pounds. We were at Western Costumes and he'd say, 'Tighter, tighter, cut it down lower.' I felt like a mannequin, a slab of beef. He would walk around me like a vulture, making me feel like the ugliest thing in the world. I was treated that way on the set, the lust factor." This is gonna be, now, the theme, in my opinion, of almost every film appearance she does going forward.

• 1:52:05Yasi Salek?

  With a few exceptions.

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  Is what?

• 1:52:07Yasi Salek?

  That she is-

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  Phenomenal, beautiful, talented?

• 1:52:10Yasi Salek?

  Yes, but that she is typecast.

• 1:52:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:52:13Yasi Salek?

  That she is cast because of the sexuality, you know? And pushed to really be in that role and place, you know?

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  Hmm, in some cases, yes. But then there is a point at which she is taking control by producing-

• 1:52:31Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:32Speaker 03

  And doing things like that, so-

• 1:52:33Yasi Salek?

  I'm not saying it was against her will, I'm just saying it's interesting that, like, it's very much the thing that we talk about on here a lot, which is that people don't want you to be more than one thing. So, she had a, in my opinion, seemed to have a really hard time ever playing-

• 1:52:51Yasi Salek?

  Out against type, you know?

• 1:52:54Speaker 03

  But I also feel like times when she played against type, it read as a bit false. Because, I mean, we don't get into like the next best thing in movies like when she was trying to do more like romantic comedy type.

• 1:53:07Yasi Salek?

  That's next episode.

• 1:53:09Speaker 03

  But.

• 1:53:10Yasi Salek?

  Not sure that movie would have worked on any level for any reason, but.

• 1:53:14Speaker 03

  But like a later film that I think she really leaned into this typecast thing was swept away, which we also don't cover on our episode, and which is to me such a phenomenal performance. It is. She is so funny in that movie. She knew exactly what she was doing. So I think when she seizes onto it, she always ends up deepening it.

• 1:53:34Yasi Salek?

  Oh, she does a great job. And just anyways, she's always so savvy. She had agreed to get the part she really wanted the part. So she had agreed to like scale pay, which is what? Just like, it's basically minimum wage for actors, right? Or for people. But she had negotiated a percentage of the proceeds of the film and the soundtrack, and that made her a lot of money. And the soundtrack, she had to sing three songs composed by Stephen Sondheim.

• 1:54:00Speaker 03

  Which are incredible.

• 1:54:01Yasi Salek?

  It's incredible. It's crazy because this is like such a leap, I think, from like her traditional way of singing and making music.

• 1:54:10Speaker 03

  Right. But I would say that when she was doing Breathless,

• 1:54:17Speaker 03

  it felt very playful.

• 1:54:18Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:19Speaker 03

  You know, it felt like she was playing at doing a kind of Broadway ragtime affectation. Unlike Evita, which changed her singing voice forever, which we also won't get to.

• 1:54:32Yasi Salek?

  I do think the skill set she had to develop to do these Sondheim songs was kind of a little bit the secret sauce that like kicked it up to like the perfect level. When we're going to get into the next couple of albums.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Okay.

• 1:54:48Yasi Salek?

  Okay. Cause I do like, I love.

• 1:54:51Speaker 03

  I didn't think about that.

• 1:54:52Yasi Salek?

  But you know what I mean? Like, because it's not, she does have a vocal coach on this and she does like. She has said that she basically, like, the songs had such complicated rhythmic changes and melodic changes that she had to, like, have someone, like, kind of sit.

• 1:55:05Speaker 03

  Soundtime is so quick and agile.

• 1:55:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, and I assume she's like a sponge. She's always learning. I feel like that really, like, helped inform the music we get next, which is why it makes sense to me, like, what a leap erotica is from, like, A Prayer.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 1:55:20Yasi Salek?

  On, like, every level, musically, vocally, you know. And then, so she did the other songs, the non-hon-rime songs, inspired by the film. We'll talk about them when we get to the soundtrack. Okay, this shit wraps, babe. Dick Race is over. She's hanging out in the snatch batch, and her boyfriend Warren, they're taking him to Jules Catch One, which still exists.

• 1:55:44Speaker 03

  Warren was a showman, I think it's safe to say.

• 1:55:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. I love the idea of them taking him to Jules Catch One, which is a club on Pico. I saw someone call it South Central. It's not South Central. It's close to South Central, but it's above the 10. It's one of the oldest black-owned discos in the country. I think it was owned by lesbians, actually, black lesbians. And at the time, it was the largest dance club for gay black men in the world. And they brought Warren's ass right down there, and he just sat on a couch and watched them dance.

• 1:56:12Speaker 03

  I've been in some situations like that with some actors, I'll tell you off-mic.

• 1:56:16Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:16Speaker 03

  But...

• 1:56:17Yasi Salek?

  And then in December of 1989, this is very interesting to me. Madonna won MTV's Artist of the Decade Award.

• 1:56:22Speaker 03

  What is that?

• 1:56:24Yasi Salek?

  I don't know.

• 1:56:25Speaker 03

  That exists?

• 1:56:25Yasi Salek?

  I don't know. Did they do it again in the 90s? I'm not really sure.

• 1:56:29Speaker 03

  Did she win it again in the 90s?

• 1:56:30Yasi Salek?

  She should have. Just point out to be like, she's already, like, in the life cycle of a pop star. You, it's like, you could have been like, okay, she peaked, you know?

• 1:56:41Speaker 03

  When did she get her video Vanguard?

• 1:56:43Yasi Salek?

  86. Very early on.

• 1:56:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think...

• 1:56:47Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 1:56:49Speaker 03

  Because you know, they renamed the MTV Video Vanguard Award that MTV Michael Jackson Video Vanguard Award.

• 1:56:55Yasi Salek?

  Why?

• 1:56:56Speaker 03

  They decided to name it after him because he was the king of pop.

• 1:56:59Yasi Salek?

  Got it.

• 1:56:59Speaker 03

  They then took his name off of it.

• 1:57:01Yasi Salek?

  Okay, because of.

• 1:57:02Speaker 03

  Because of scandal.

• 1:57:03Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:05Speaker 03

  I think it should be renamed the Madonna Video Vanguard Award.

• 1:57:07Yasi Salek?

  It's a great idea. Do the VMAs exist?

• 1:57:09Speaker 03

  And then you can give her another one, so she gets the Madonna Video Vanguard Award. And then from then on, it's the Madonna.

• 1:57:15Yasi Salek?

  I just remembered, we did watch them together actually this year, so they do exist.

• 1:57:18Speaker 03

  The VMAs are still going.

• 1:57:20Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:21Speaker 03

  Also, like, one of the coolest awards you can win just from a trophy design standpoint. Who doesn't want a moon man?

• 1:57:27Yasi Salek?

  It's the only part of that award ceremony where I recognize anybody because it's the absolute hoomst awards to me every year. I'm like, I know that I'm like checked out a little bit, but I'm like, I don't know who any of these people are. It's important to note that she had overtaken the Beatles for most consecutive top five singles, 16 in a row now. I liked what this guy, Mark Roland, wrote in Musician Magazine at this time. He said, "As the decade draws to a close, the votes are tabulated and the winner is Madonna. She, not Bruce Springsteen, is the biggest. She, not Michael Jackson, is the baddest. She, not Prince, is the nastiest. She, not Pepsi-Cola, is the shrewdest. You can't argue with her triumph. It is complete. Even when her films blow dead air or her marriage."

• 1:58:10Speaker 03

  How dare you?

• 1:58:10Yasi Salek?

  I know. Or her marriage breaks up, or her records bomb. That has never happened. She is the winner.

• 1:58:15Speaker 03

  She won.

• 1:58:16Yasi Salek?

  She won, babe. Also, we should point out the Pepsi-Cola thing. This is

• 1:58:23Yasi Salek?

  why there was no tour in 89.

• 1:58:27Yasi Salek?

  They were meant to underwrite it.

• 1:58:29Speaker 03

  To sponsor it.

• 1:58:29Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. So I think that was kind of put on the back burner. Well, guess what, babe?

• 1:58:33Speaker 03

  Something happened.

• 1:58:34Yasi Salek?

  Something happened.

• 1:58:35Speaker 03

  Something came up.

• 1:58:37Yasi Salek?

  And it's a little single, a little standalone single called Vogue.

• 1:58:42Speaker 03

  Vogue is something where I.

• 1:58:44Yasi Salek?

  We need six more hours just to like.

• 1:58:45Speaker 03

  I will never understand how it happened because she does songs on I'm Breathless.

• 1:58:51Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 1:58:52Speaker 03

  That are not song time, but they're still in that style.

• 1:58:54Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:55Speaker 03

  This is like a standalone, what the fuck, came out of nowhere song.

• 1:59:00Yasi Salek?

  So I was trying to piece it together. It's quite difficult. It's, from what I understood, the song came up sort of organically, like Shep Pettybone was like.

• 1:59:16Yasi Salek?

  Do you like this or whatever? And she was like, yes. And it was.

• 1:59:21Speaker 03

  Sometimes it be like that.

• 1:59:22Yasi Salek?

  And they made it as a, I might be wrong, but this is what I was like, sort of able to like piece together. They were, they get, they gave them like nothing, like five grand to make it because it was meant to be a B-side to one, the last single. And I think it is, whatever. It was meant to be the B-side of the last single of like a prayer.

• 1:59:40Speaker 03

  And she like recorded it in like a filthy room closet and a basement and a slum of hell kitchen.

• 1:59:46Yasi Salek?

  Well, because they had no money because they were like, here's five K to make this single and shit. I was like, okay, I'll do this in my friend's house or whatever. But then I think the story that they told was like, oh, they need another song for Dick Tracy, but I don't think that's true. I think they made the song and realized it's so fucking good. That it can't be relegated to a B-side. So then they were like, we have to put it somewhere. You didn't really do standalone singles then, right? Or did they? Not really. Right? Like it was like, it's not like now where you can just put out a song. They, they kind of wanted to anchor it to something. So they were like, it'll be the third song.

• 2:00:18Speaker 03

  And usually with those songs, you'll, it'll go to a film soundtrack or something like that.

• 2:00:22Yasi Salek?

  So I think they made it an A-side single of Thorne, Beatty, Dick Tracy soundtrack. But I think thematically she did kind of try to tie it into like.

• 2:00:33Speaker 03

  Old Hollywood.

• 2:00:33Yasi Salek?

  Old Hollywood glamour or whatever. Do you want to explain the history of voguing?

• 2:00:40Speaker 03

  Everyone's dream is for me to do that.

• 2:00:43Yasi Salek?

  Okay, fine. I'll do it. I'll, I'll, I'll admit, I was on the Wikipedia page for the cakewalk.

• 2:00:50Speaker 03

  It goes back.

• 2:00:51Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Which is 19th century Florida.

• 2:00:54Speaker 03

  It's not new.

• 2:00:55Yasi Salek?

  A dance in which enslaved people mimicked with subtle mockery, the formal manner dancing practiced by slaveholding whites. That's the cakewalk. Became associated with gay culture.

• 2:01:07Speaker 03

  So it was invented by slaveholding whites?

• 2:01:09Yasi Salek?

  No, it was invented by slaves.

• 2:01:11Speaker 03

  Just kidding.

• 2:01:11Yasi Salek?

  Oh, I see what you're saying. Got it. Okay. I was like, what? It became associated with gay culture in the twenties and thirties during the Harlem Renaissance. But the fullest public expression came about at early drag balls in the 60s. And the Harlem Renaissance was both black and Latino. So this also early drag balls, black and Latino. Here is a quote from the National Museum of African American History and Culture. "As part of this ballroom culture, black and Latino vokers would compete for trophies and the reputation of their houses, groups that were part competitive affiliation, part surrogate family." Named after the famous fashion magazine, Vogue took from the poses in high school, oh, sorry, the poses in high fashion and ancient Egyptian art, adding exaggerated

• 2:01:51Yasi Salek?

  hand gestures to tell a story and imitate various gender performances and categorize genres. There was a whole other side story that maybe you know more about, that it, that part of it came from Rikers, where there was like, like-

• 2:02:06Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:02:07Yasi Salek?

  Like a gay inmate who, like, I guess the inmates there couldn't have porn, but they would look at Vogue magazine to like, get off. And one of like, the inmates was like, "Oh, you don't need that magazine. I can be that magazine. I can Vogue," you know? This is just like, one of the-

• 2:02:21Speaker 03

  Invented gay sex in prison.

• 2:02:23Yasi Salek?

  I hope that that's true, because it's a great story. And then, in May of 1989, shop owner Suzanne Barch invited members of the various houses to perform at the first annual Love Ball, the Roseland Ballroom, to raise money for AIDS research.

• 2:02:37Speaker 03

  Much like the VMAs, the Love Ball is still kicking.

• 2:02:40Yasi Salek?

  Is it?

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:41Yasi Salek?

  Oh, that's cool. After the Love Ball is when vogueing became a thing.

• 2:02:45Speaker 03

  A thing, like, in terms of like nightlife culture, all of that? Because there's, you know, it's, it, there's something magical about vogueing-

• 2:02:55Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 2:02:55Speaker 03

  Where every generation thinks they started it.

• 2:02:59Yasi Salek?

  They started it, right. When it's like, 19th century slaves started it.

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  And you just gotta let them think it, because like, being pompous like that is sort of baked into the overall premise.

• 2:03:09Yasi Salek?

  Right, there's an audacity. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's great. Malcolm McLaren, famously the manager of the Sex Pistols, who later made music, and the Bootzilla Orchestra released a song called "Deep in Vogue." Yeah. And Keith Haring did a series of voguing posters that fall. And in 1990, Paris is Burning, the documentary, came out, directed by Jenny Livingston. That was from the 80s.

• 2:03:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, landmark documentary, very influential, often quoted all the time.

• 2:03:41Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:03:41Speaker 03

  In ways that you may not even know.

• 2:03:42Yasi Salek?

  It's fully in slang in the ways that like you're on TikTok and some girl is saying a thing and it actually comes from Paris is Burning.

• 2:03:49Speaker 03

  I always, the one that I say like weirdly the most often, which is just me being a bitch probably, I'm always like, if you shoot an arrow and it goes real high, hooray for you.

• 2:04:02Yasi Salek?

  So good.

• 2:04:02Speaker 03

  So good.

• 2:04:03Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so this song, it's actually really funny, speaking of hooray for you, The Shade of Shep Pettibone, because she's like, oh, you know, Vogue, cool, you know? And he goes, she came to the studio and said, I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna call it Vogue. And voguing was almost kind of over at that point.

• 2:04:22Speaker 03

  That's the other thing.

• 2:04:23Yasi Salek?

  Underground dance scene. Not over, but it had been done. He was like, okay, if you want to do that, it's kind of like over, babe.

• 2:04:28Speaker 03

  Everyone started it and it's always over.

• 2:04:31Yasi Salek?

  But it's very funny because if-

• 2:04:33Speaker 03

  But it never ends.

• 2:04:34Yasi Salek?

  It was underground.

• 2:04:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:36Yasi Salek?

  Without Vogue, the Madonna pop single, maybe still a lot of people would not know what that is, you know? It definitely brought it to the mainstream in a, in a very immediate, quick way.

• 2:04:48Speaker 03

  But you know what happened is like it, she, she brought it to the mainstream awareness.

• 2:04:55Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:04:55Speaker 03

  But nothing really happened with it.

• 2:04:56Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:04:57Speaker 03

  It's not like suddenly it was everywhere.

• 2:04:59Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:59Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? It was like- She did it. Everyone was like, wow. And then everyone moved on. And it was like, back to breakdancing. It was sort of like, culture was not ready at all to take something that was that overtly queer and make it mainstream. It was like, it didn't take off in the mainstream at all, until much later.

• 2:05:20Yasi Salek?

  When do you think that happened? Would it be like the, like, when Drag Race went on the air?

• 2:05:25Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say like 2016.

• 2:05:27Yasi Salek?

  So even later, like Drag Race had been on the air.

• 2:05:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. It was not even a big part of like Drag Race. It like sort of came back like with fashion shows and things like that. It came back in a lot of fashion advertising and media.

• 2:05:40Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:40Speaker 03

  And then it started to be like, you know, there were like voguing competition, reality series that would come out. It sort of, it became mainstreamed in like, you would see people, this is so horrible to say, but like you would see people on like deodorant commercials, voguing and stuff like, like it felt like it hit mainstream so late.

• 2:06:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:01Speaker 03

  That like, there's always been a lot of attitude about it of like, who, who started it, it being over. It being like, it never getting, it never got its moment.

• 2:06:11Yasi Salek?

  No matter what, the minute it's co-opted by the mainstream, it's gonna be corny. That's just what happens. Doesn't matter how long it takes, it's always gonna become deodorant commercials. So like.

• 2:06:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. But if you ever go to like an actual ball, it's not corny anymore. It's like when you're actually there and you're in the like real shit with it.

• 2:06:29Yasi Salek?

  I can't imagine it being corny, like in, in actual practice.

• 2:06:32Speaker 03

  I mean, there was a party during my time in New York in my twenties, all throughout my twenties, there was a party that was Esqualida, I wanna say, in New York. And it was called Vogue Nights. It was every Tuesday. And that was just like where you would go to like watch the Vogues tear it in New York. And it was just so regular. And then there would be like the Miyaki Mugler ball, like white ball that they would do like every year. And when you're in those environments, it suddenly stops being corny and it's major again, you know, because it's real.

• 2:07:05Yasi Salek?

  It makes exactly, that's like not it being co-opted into some sort of thing where it doesn't belong, you know? It's like it's actual playground.

• 2:07:13Speaker 03

  And there's also an element of probably, and I can't really speak to like the dance world and the dance community. But like if you're a dancer.

• 2:07:20Yasi Salek?

  I can't, I'm a dancer.

• 2:07:21Speaker 03

  And that's a huge community and it's a huge culture in and of itself. You get trained in different styles of dance, you know? If you're going to be a professional dancer, backup dancer or whatever. So there are also dancers everywhere that can Vogue, but they don't come from the ballroom world.

• 2:07:38Yasi Salek?

  Right, right.

• 2:07:38Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 2:07:39Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:39Speaker 03

  And there's a lot of weird slippery shit with that.

• 2:07:42Yasi Salek?

  Very interesting. Well, back to the song.

• 2:07:46Yasi Salek?

  While Shep was like, okay, well, if you want to do this thing, that's over. He is also the one that suggested the rap part. He said, she had the choruses together and the verses together and she sang those in place one by one. First take. For the middle part, I was like, how about if we do like a rap or something in there here? Because we didn't have anything for that really. And she was like, what do you mean? I'm like, oh, how about you know, like bringing in movie stars and stuff? So we just wrote down a whole bunch of names of movie stars and that's how the rap came up.

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 2:08:25Speaker 03

  I love how fast it came together.

• 2:08:27Yasi Salek?

  You know, it's like one of those lightning bolt.

• 2:08:30Speaker 03

  And the video ends up being the same way, which is crazy.

• 2:08:34Yasi Salek?

  The rap is really good.

• 2:08:37Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah. What are you gonna say? What's, what can you do? What can you say?

• 2:08:42Yasi Salek?

  What can you do? It's just Dietrich and DiMaggio, Mont and Brando, Jim Dean on the cover of, I just have them, it's just like forever looping around my brain. Again, they got back and they played this song and everyone was like, we're not putting that on a B side. This is a fucking stone cold hit. Went right on to number one and with that Madonna became the one with the most number one hits in music history. At that point, the spot is now held by Mariah Carey. Let's talk about the video. She called up Dave.

• 2:09:12Yasi Salek?

  She said, Dave, you fucked me.

• 2:09:16Yasi Salek?

  This is not what she actually said.

• 2:09:17Speaker 03

  You forced me into "Oh Father."

• 2:09:18Yasi Salek?

  Right. Actually, what she said is, "Look, you wanted to make a video for..." This is what David Fincher said. She said, "Look, you wanted to make a video for 'Oh Father,' and no one liked the song, and I went to bat for you, and now I have to make a video by Tuesday." And I said, "What's the song called?"

• 2:09:30Speaker 03

  By Tuesday? What day of the week was this phone call?

• 2:09:32Yasi Salek?

  It doesn't make, it doesn't say. And she said Vogue, and I said, "Okay, we'll get a bunch of stuff together, and we'll make a video on Tuesday." Little miscommunication there. They shot the video in 16 hours. What can you say about the video? It's iconic. That dress, the white-

• 2:09:46Speaker 03

  What blows my mind is that they pulled all of that together so quickly, in less than a week.

• 2:09:52Yasi Salek?

  It kind of worked out perfect because I'm, I'm like, the timeline's getting a little mishmash.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  She was preparing for the tour.

• 2:09:59Yasi Salek?

  She was preparing for the tour and had already cast the dancers for the Blonde Ambition Tour. So, and the two boys who came from the, like, Fame High School-

• 2:10:08Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:10:09Yasi Salek?

  Were really, like, skilled in that type of dance already.

• 2:10:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:12Yasi Salek?

  It's actually interesting-

• 2:10:13Speaker 03

  Is that Jose and Luis?

• 2:10:14Yasi Salek?

  Jose and Luis.

• 2:10:15Speaker 03

  Extravaganza?

• 2:10:15Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Were they in the house bef- they were only like 17.

• 2:10:20Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 2:10:21Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. So anyways, so they-

• 2:10:22Speaker 03

  You start young.

• 2:10:23Yasi Salek?

  And that might have been how she even found out about fucking voguing to begin with, you know? But what's really funny about this video is that they had hired a tour choreographer, this woman named Carol Armitage, who was the punk ballerina. I had not heard of her, but Jose and Luis-

• 2:10:41Speaker 03

  Sounds iconic.

• 2:10:42Yasi Salek?

  Were absolutely beefing with her. They hated her.

• 2:10:44Speaker 03

  She's dead to me. Get her out of here.

• 2:10:46Yasi Salek?

  Well, she quit.

• 2:10:48Speaker 03

  Bye, bitch.

• 2:10:49Yasi Salek?

  And that's how-

• 2:10:49Speaker 03

  Punk ballerina no more.

• 2:10:50Yasi Salek?

  That's how Vincent Patterson became the choreographer of this video. Because he was like in Cuba working on a Sidney Pollack film, and she was like, "I need you." And he was like, "Okay." I love this video. I love the-

• 2:11:02Speaker 03

  The-

• 2:11:03Yasi Salek?

  The goatee corset, black dress, the white silky glamour, the hair.

• 2:11:11Speaker 03

  So the cone bra-

• 2:11:12Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:11:13Speaker 03

  Uh, that she wears in the video is actually six years old at that point. It was from Jean-Paul Gaultier's Fall 1984 Show.

• 2:11:20Yasi Salek?

  Patrick's Fashion Corner. Can we have a little jingle for this part? Patrick's Fashion Corner.

• 2:11:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, so that was sort of the introduction of the cone bra, which then he reinterpreted a lot for the Blonde Ambition Tour, but you really-

• 2:11:32Yasi Salek?

  I'm wearing my goatee in honor of JPG for this.

• 2:11:37Speaker 03

  But there's like that dance sequence that's with Madonna and Ollie in the middle of the video where it really kicks into gear. We're watching that and just knowing how fast they had to pull together the video really blows my mind.

• 2:11:51Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:51Speaker 03

  That dancers can do things like that.

• 2:11:53Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. And Madonna's a trained dancer. I'd never forget it, you know?

• 2:11:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. You would have to be.

• 2:12:07Speaker 03

  It's just how important this video is.

• 2:12:10Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:11Speaker 03

  Like cannot be overstated. It's like one of the most important pop visuals ever made. One of David Fincher's best works. And it's crazy knowing how David Fincher works and what a perfectionist he is, that he was able to do this in such a short amount of time. It's almost like that instinct of the way that they put it together was such that they didn't have to maybe put so much thought into it, but it ended up being so profound.

• 2:12:40Yasi Salek?

  Well, I think what it is, it's different than maybe some of the other Fincher videos. There's not really a story, right? It's, it's just like some really iconic shots.

• 2:12:50Speaker 03

  It's in the song and it's also in the video that everything is about surfaces.

• 2:12:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:55Speaker 03

  It's about the body.

• 2:12:56Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:12:57Speaker 03

  It's about sculpture. It's lighting.

• 2:12:59Yasi Salek?

  Texture.

• 2:13:00Speaker 03

  Contrast.

• 2:13:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's like, it's sort of like a crash course in indulgence and irony, arrogance, spectacle, which is paying tribute to the ballroom community who are often kind of embodying this like grandiosity and these like Hollywood legends.

• 2:13:19Yasi Salek?

  Right. It's working on both levels. It's like, it's, it's that ballroom, it's like a gesture towards that ballroom audacity. And it's also going back towards the source material, which is the old Hollywood glamour, the Jean Harlow.

• 2:13:31Speaker 03

  And it's aspiring to this.

• 2:13:32Yasi Salek?

  And it looks like that.

• 2:13:34Speaker 03

  Level of grandeur. And it's the same aspiration that Madonna had for herself.

• 2:13:39Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:39Speaker 03

  And it's happening at that precise moment that she's starring in these Hollywood movies.

• 2:13:45Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:13:45Speaker 03

  And actually living it. So it's like, you get this. This like manifesto of like, I'm dreaming this and I've become it. And it's like all happening in this one video at this one time. And it's like this shock of glamour and melodrama. It's camp, it's fashion, it's gay, it's embracing artifice, it's celebrating image. It's myth, it's a fucking monument, this video. If you can imagine being like a gay child and seeing this on TV, the impact, I can't even talk about it. It's like, I had never seen men behaving effeminately

• 2:14:28Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:14:28Speaker 03

  and gesturing like that

• 2:14:30Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:14:30Speaker 03

  in my life. I didn't know that was possible. I didn't know that was like, it like opened a window.

• 2:14:36Yasi Salek?

  Right. Like you had your Boy George moment where you were like, oh, that's not a girl. But this was like something totally different.

• 2:14:42Speaker 03

  This was like, faggots exist. Like it was, it's truly like the most magical, important thing that happened to so many of us. So I just had to say that.

• 2:14:53Yasi Salek?

  No, thank you. I think, I think it's, it's impossible to, to overstate how powerful this video was and how like it cut through the public consciousness at the time that it came. It was everywhere, you know, like.

• 2:15:08Speaker 03

  And the way that it's so cinematic because Fincher is directing it.

• 2:15:11Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:12Speaker 03

  And the way that the song itself builds and has so much momentum and drama and it like crescendos in this insane way. It's just the most major thing anyone's ever done.

• 2:15:25Yasi Salek?

  We would be remiss if we don't mention, it's one of the first real celebratory moments of Madonna's perfect breasts. Because she has the most perfect breasts that have ever existed.

• 2:15:34Speaker 03

  The sheer top.

• 2:15:35Yasi Salek?

  The sheer top, the sheer lace top where you can just like, because I know she's been a sex symbol for a while, but she's not really been. Despite popular belief, she wasn't really showing a lot of skin before. There was a lot of like mid riff and stuff, you know, but it's, this is, this is the era that she starts to be a little more titillating with like how she's dressing.

• 2:15:56Speaker 03

  She's doing femme queen realness.

• 2:15:59Yasi Salek?

  And that hair.

• 2:15:59Speaker 03

  Body, body, body.

• 2:16:00Yasi Salek?

  As I said, I have that same haircut and on me, when it's curly, I look like George Washington. It's full founding fathers and on her, she looks like a Hollywood siren.

• 2:16:10Speaker 03

  Call Peter Savick.

• 2:16:11Yasi Salek?

  Peter Savick, I don't want to look like George Washington anymore. Can you help me? Yeah, it's, what a, what a jam. What a fucking Vogue, Vogue, Vogue, Vogue. Um, a few days after they finished filming the video, Keith Haring died of AIDS. So this is now

• 2:16:28Yasi Salek?

  two, three of her best friends that have died of AIDS? Cause Martin Burgoyne has passed away. I think Christopher Flynn has maybe already died. I'm not sure. He's definitely sick. So when Pepsi was still involved financially, the tour was meant to be called the Like a Prayer World Tour. Um, and when they pulled their sponsorship, Madonna and Christopher, her brother decided to call it Blonde Ambition because there were so many articles that referenced her blind ambition. So they thought it was like a fun play on words and it is a fun play on words. It's become like a

• 2:17:02Speaker 03

  It's iconic.

• 2:17:03Yasi Salek?

  It's, it's a phrase that we use now. She elevated Christopher. She promoted him to art director, although he still had to dress her.

• 2:17:14Speaker 03

  Can I just say?

• 2:17:15Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:17:16Speaker 03

  There was, I think in the previous year, she was on the cover of Vogue. And the photos in it were like, all about like Madonna's house. It was like Madonna at home and Christopher had designed her house.

• 2:17:29Yasi Salek?

  He designed all her houses up until a certain point.

• 2:17:32Speaker 03

  It was gorgeous and it was major and her gym was insane.

• 2:17:35Yasi Salek?

  I love that cover with the, with the brown hair with the pool. So good.

• 2:17:40Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 2:17:41Yasi Salek?

  Christopher exquisite taste.

• 2:17:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:45Yasi Salek?

  I mean, you can't, there's no way to look back on, may he rest in peace, look back on what he did and be like, oh, this is not an unrecogni-, this is like. An obvious talent. The Blonde Ambition Tour long. You were the art director of the Blonde Ambition Tour.

• 2:18:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:01Yasi Salek?

  Obviously Madonna is very involved, but.

• 2:18:03Speaker 03

  We don't know. We weren't there, but we don't know what she would have been like, how cool she would have been without Christopher.

• 2:18:10Yasi Salek?

  Well, we definitely.

• 2:18:11Speaker 03

  Without Christopher's eye and influence.

• 2:18:12Yasi Salek?

  We definitely don't know how cool she would have been without her many gays.

• 2:18:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:16Yasi Salek?

  There are pivotal gays along the, along the way, starting with Christopher Flynn, including Martin Burgoyne, Christopher Chaconi, there's plenty. So they decided on this tour to go like theater. Okay. It's not just one stage. It's five different worlds. Would you say this is

• 2:18:36Yasi Salek?

  the first of its kind in that sense that sort of created the blueprint for what every pop star kind of does now? Or do you think it had sort of some antecedents before it? I don't, I'm not really like that.

• 2:18:49Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 2:18:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:50Speaker 03

  I'm like, maybe someone else did it to like less fanfare that we don't know about.

• 2:18:54Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:18:55Speaker 03

  But it feels like impact wise, this changed.

• 2:18:58Yasi Salek?

  It's very associated with her though, I think.

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:00Yasi Salek?

  With the idea of taking something that had been a stadium tour without the theater of it, without the like insane like backdrops or like hydraulics or moving parts of the stage. And it, it has become very associated with her, which now every pop star kind of has to do that. Right? Cause if you don't, you're, it's boring.

• 2:19:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think that there were like certain things that people had done, but not on this level.

• 2:19:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:29Speaker 03

  And not with this level of design.

• 2:19:31Yasi Salek?

  So one of these, these worlds was Metropolis, like the express yourself world. One was a religious cathedral.

• 2:19:37Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 2:19:37Yasi Salek?

  One was Dick Tracy art deco vibes. Um, then it was the camp section. Then we get really serious again and we go into our Clockwork Orange Cabaret set.

• 2:19:50Yasi Salek?

  Patrick Leonard could not go on tour because he had a family. So she got Jai Winding to serve as the musical director. Nikki Harris and Donna DeLorey, who we talked about in the previous episode, who you obviously know who they are, Patrick, are back as the backup singers.

• 2:20:03Speaker 03

  Huge celebrities in Madonna world.

• 2:20:04Yasi Salek?

  Huge celebrities. Vincent Patterson has been, again, called back from Cuba and replacing the punk rock ballerina who was fired or quit, I'm not sure.

• 2:20:15Speaker 03

  I also love the choreography of this tour.

• 2:20:17Yasi Salek?

  It's incredible. Vincent Patterson said, Madonna said, I want you to break every rule you can think of. Then when those are done, make up some more and break those two. So that is how I went into the tour with complete artistic freedom to do whatever the fuck I wanted.

• 2:20:30Speaker 03

  There was some Fosse in there, there was voguing in there, there was a lot going on.

• 2:20:35Yasi Salek?

  The Like a Virgin bed choreography?

• 2:20:39Speaker 03

  The bed thing, the impact of the bed.

• 2:20:41Yasi Salek?

  I know.

• 2:20:42Speaker 03

  And the bed being on a slant.

• 2:20:43Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. So you could like.

• 2:20:45Speaker 03

  And then even little details like during Keep It Together with the Clockwork Orange, like Gautier, like cage harnesses and the little derby hats.

• 2:20:55Yasi Salek?

  She loved the bowler hat.

• 2:20:56Speaker 03

  And they're fucking with the chairs and picking up the chairs on the underside of the chair, it's mirrored.

• 2:21:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:01Speaker 03

  So it really became like lights.

• 2:21:03Yasi Salek?

  So she wanted eight dancers and she really wanted them to have personality. Above all, that's how she got 19 year old Luis Camacho from the Lower East Side and his best friend from LaGuardia High School of Music and Arts, Jose Gutierrez. Here's how she described their audition, I loved this. She said, Luis came and Luis will try anything. He was not so great at everything, but he was willing to try it and I loved him for that. Jose wouldn't do a goddamn thing. Jose sat in the back with his hands on his hips. He was just like, the fuck I will. So of course I loved him for that. I thought now this guy has balls. Love. Then there was Salim Slam Galus, who was 20.

• 2:21:43Speaker 03

  My number one crush.

• 2:21:44Yasi Salek?

  Oh, Slam?

• 2:21:45Speaker 03

  He's so hot.

• 2:21:46Yasi Salek?

  They're all really hot.

• 2:21:47Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 2:21:48Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. 20 year old.

• 2:21:49Speaker 03

  He's like a Bruce Weber model.

• 2:21:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. 20 year old Kevin Stay, a half Chinese student at USC, who actually wasn't initially hired to be a dancer, but they loved him so much in the auditions, they asked him to be an assistant choreographer to the punk rock ballerina, who obviously. No more, but then they eventually were like, why don't you be the dance captain and assistant choreographer? And the other dancers were Carlton Wilborn, 26 years old, came from a professional company in Chicago and actually already had a tour offer from Whitney Houston. Oliver Crumbs, a 17 year old from Compton with bleached hair.

• 2:22:23Speaker 03

  Love Ollie.

• 2:22:23Yasi Salek?

  We were, we were watching it the other night and my reebry was like, that man can be on the street in Bushwick right now. And I was like, 100%. The, the crazy part about this tour and also Truth or Dare is that there is no time. It is yesterday. It is today. Nothing looks dated. Like, it's crazy how the sensibility was just like set in amber that day and has not gone away. Like you, the way these people dressed, you could, any person could be-

• 2:22:53Speaker 03

  It still looks good.

• 2:22:54Yasi Salek?

  Still looks good. Still like, as opposed to, and I was talking to Mel about this, the fucking Who's That Girl tour, which I love. So 80s. Gold lame blazer. You know, like, it's like, it looks so dated.

• 2:23:07Speaker 03

  Maybe it's also because certain things are coming back. You know, like I was looking at Melissa, her assistant in Truth or Dare, who has her, she has this 90s haircut and it looks so good. And I'm like, that's because like, girls want that hair again. It's like back.

• 2:23:23Yasi Salek?

  Is it the?

• 2:23:24Speaker 03

  She just had like a big bang and it was like volume. It was a kind of hairspray, but it was like messy. And I was just like, fuck yeah.

• 2:23:33Yasi Salek?

  Amazing. Okay. Sorry. The last dancer is Gabriel Troopin, a 20 year old who becomes her favorite child of the tour, who was hiding a secret, babe. He was HIV positive.

• 2:23:44Speaker 03

  He was the little angel.

• 2:23:46Yasi Salek?

  Carlton and Saleem were also HIV positive and they were all secret. Not telling anyone. It was really sad. Carlton had this quote that he said, he moved to LA because I thought if I'm going to die in a year, I need to make my life as amazing as I can right now. That's really where I was.

• 2:24:02Speaker 03

  You did it.

• 2:24:03Yasi Salek?

  Okay, we need to talk about the hands-free mic.

• 2:24:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:24:06Yasi Salek?

  Well, because this was kind of the first.

• 2:24:08Speaker 03

  That was the first one?

• 2:24:09Yasi Salek?

  No, the first one was actually Kate Bush, who like,

• 2:24:12Speaker 03

  Sick.

• 2:24:12Yasi Salek?

  Um rigged a cradle for her mic out of coat hangers because she wanted to do it. Fucking legend. But that was like, an oddity. Like, it was like, no one really, it was like, oh, I'll do that too. But when Madonna did it, it was like, it became called the Madonna mic. And so many people started doing it afterwards.

• 2:24:28Speaker 03

  It's funny because that makes sense. They're both such vocalists. And you can see how they both insist on singing live.

• 2:24:36Yasi Salek?

  And move and moving the whole time as well, because Kate Bush was also such like,

• 2:24:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:41Yasi Salek?

  All right, and the costumes. This is, Patrick's fashion corner is open.

• 2:24:45Speaker 03

  Oh, God. Well, you know, the costumes were designed by Jean-Paul Gaultier. What more do you need to say?

• 2:24:53Yasi Salek?

  I do think it's really crazy that they made 358 costumes because they needed everything in triplicate.

• 2:25:00Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Tour is no joke.

• 2:25:02Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:02Speaker 03

  It's sort of like film. Film, you need duplicates as well, for the same reason. I thought it was funny that when Jean-Paul went to New York to meet with her, she was in her hotel room with Cabaret playing in the background. And she was reading a biography of Louise Brooks.

• 2:25:15Yasi Salek?

  It's like so on the nose.

• 2:25:16Speaker 03

  It's so like, it's like Betty Boob answers the door. It's like, oh, hi, come in. Yeah, I don't know. The costumes for the Blonde Ambition Tour are so well-regarded and so iconic that it's, it's like a huge part of Jean-Paul Gaultier's legacy. A lot of them have been recreated, reissued, re-editions.

• 2:25:37Yasi Salek?

  Shout out Erin McGee, who owns the, uh, peach-colored dress with the cone bra.

• 2:25:45Speaker 03

  With the corset?

• 2:25:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that she comes with the, um, ponytail.

• 2:25:49Speaker 03

  There's the, the incredible polka dot number.

• 2:25:52Yasi Salek?

  Yes, which, I'll be honest, I think only a few people can pull off polka dots, as much as these girls are trying to make it happen again. Addison Rae and Madonna.

• 2:26:01Speaker 03

  A little bit of a Latin flavor to that look as well, a little bit of-

• 2:26:04Yasi Salek?

  She's spiritually Cuban.

• 2:26:05Speaker 03

  Spanish, maybe?

• 2:26:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Oh, we didn't even say it. Remember, I was gonna save it for this episode because I forgot to say on the first episode.

• 2:26:11Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:26:12Yasi Salek?

  La Isla Bonita.

• 2:26:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:26:14Yasi Salek?

  A Dream of San Pedro.

• 2:26:15Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 2:26:15Yasi Salek?

  Was actually initially written for Michael Jackson.

• 2:26:18Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 2:26:19Yasi Salek?

  Patrick Leonard said, and he turned it down.

• 2:26:22Speaker 03

  His loss.

• 2:26:22Yasi Salek?

  So we got to have a white girl. You mind if a white girl speak a little Espanol?

• 2:26:27Speaker 03

  You know, a lot of these clothes really started underwear as outerwear. I mean, you could, we can fall down the rabbit hole all day, all night. But suffice to say, the costumes are a huge deal.

• 2:26:40Yasi Salek?

  There was another part of this that I didn't write down, but I think Gautier had, what was his partner's name? That they started a company together. Do you remember? Okay, anyways, that was like the love of his life and he also was sick and I believe with AIDS. And I think there was like a huge, like he was like very emotionally driven around creating that underwear as outerwear. As some sort of like, I might be misbutchering this, but it was like, he really wanted the, the expression of like, not hiding your sexuality or pleasure, you know, like putting it out there.

• 2:27:10Speaker 03

  Just very like simpatico with Madonna.

• 2:27:13Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:27:14Speaker 03

  So many ways.

• 2:27:15Yasi Salek?

  So sorry, halfway through him starting to make these 358 costumes, Madonna lost those 10 pounds that Warren Beatty make, made her gain. And so he had to remake them all while also prepping for his own runway collection.

• 2:27:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:27:27Yasi Salek?

  And then after all that, kills himself to get it all done.

• 2:27:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:27:30Yasi Salek?

  Night one in Japan, he's there, ready to see his beautiful costumes. And it's a fucking monsoon pouring rain and they just wore jackets and, and like boots. Remember from Truth or Dare?

• 2:27:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. And Truth or Dare at the beginning, it's like, they meant to start filming it all then. And they're just like, well.

• 2:27:45Yasi Salek?

  Guess we're wearing, they look cool as hell because they're wearing bomber jackets.

• 2:27:49Speaker 03

  Jackets, which have also been reissued and I have one technically, it's being held for me in New York.

• 2:27:55Yasi Salek?

  Okay. What I really want is there's a crew jacket for desperately seeking Susan. And it's sick and I want it.

• 2:28:03Speaker 03

  You know what I also really need to get my hands on were the security T-shirts from the Blonde Ambition Tour, which you see in Truth or Dare.

• 2:28:10Yasi Salek?

  It's good.

• 2:28:10Speaker 03

  A few times.

• 2:28:12Yasi Salek?

  It's also important to note, like I said, her voice had become stronger and better because of that Sondheim Dick Tracy sort of training. So she was able to do some older songs. Here are the songs in order.

• 2:28:21Speaker 03

  Oh, boy.

• 2:28:21Yasi Salek?

  In the Blonde Ambition Tour. Express Yourself, Open Your Heart, Causing a Commotion.

• 2:28:26Speaker 03

  Yes. There's a part where either Nikki or Donna, when they're in like the van and she's like, Madonna tour 2025. And then she was like an old, acts like an old lady and just causing a commotion.

• 2:28:37Yasi Salek?

  Talking about like, oh, are you gonna still be singing this song? Yeah.

• 2:28:40Speaker 03

  And so now Madonna won't do it.

• 2:28:42Yasi Salek?

  I think there's probably other reasons. It's not.

• 2:28:43Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say that's the reason.

• 2:28:45Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  In my mind, that's the reason. That's the funnier version.

• 2:28:49Yasi Salek?

  She still thinks Donna's laughing at her.

• 2:28:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:51Yasi Salek?

  Um, then Where's the Party, which I fucking love.

• 2:28:54Speaker 03

  Where's the party?

• 2:28:55Yasi Salek?

  Um, Like a Virgin, featuring one full minute of simulated masturbation with epileptic lights.

• 2:29:02Speaker 03

  And there's like a sitar playing or something? Yeah.

• 2:29:04Yasi Salek?

  Like a Prayer, Live to Tell, Papa Don't Preach, Set Change, Hanky Panky, Now I'm Following You, these are the Dick Tracy songs, Set Change, Material Girl, Cherish, I Believe the One and Only Time It's Ever Been Performed in Concert, Into the Groove, Vogue, Holiday, and then Keep It Together, the finale with Madonna singing The Last Lines Alone for a full five minutes.

• 2:29:29Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:30Yasi Salek?

  Keep it together, keep.

• 2:29:31Speaker 03

  And they all drop down. She's saying goodbye to them.

• 2:29:35Yasi Salek?

  My arm hair.

• 2:29:37Yasi Salek?

  So.

• 2:29:38Speaker 03

  It was important.

• 2:29:39Yasi Salek?

  If there's any, I think this is maybe the thing I'd want to see the most. If I could like, just.

• 2:29:45Speaker 03

  Tour?

• 2:29:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, if I could go in a time machine.

• 2:29:48Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:49Yasi Salek?

  It's hard to say, but this is on the top of the list.

• 2:29:53Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 2:29:54Yasi Salek?

  She once again donated all of the New York slash East Rutherford, New Jersey shows to AMFAR, it was $300,000, and she dedicated that show to Keith Haring. Um, the second Rome show was canceled because the Catholic Church came out against it and the unions threatened to strike if she performed. And the Pope, John Paul II, called Blonde Ambition, quote, "One of the most satanic shows in the history of humanity." Do you feel there is a modern?

• 2:30:20Speaker 03

  I would kill for a quote from the Pope like that. Can't buy that publicity.

• 2:30:24Yasi Salek?

  Can't buy press. Liz Rosenberg was like, "Yeah."

• 2:30:27Speaker 03

  Shooting guns in there. We got the Pope.

• 2:30:30Yasi Salek?

  She also received death threats on this show, not the first time. It's, I think it's in Truth or Dare, right? The press conference she holds.

• 2:30:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:37Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, where she's like.

• 2:30:38Speaker 03

  They cut into it. You have the full text here.

• 2:30:40Yasi Salek?

  The full quote is, "My blood boils when I misunderstood or unfairly judge for my beliefs. My show is not a conventional rock show, but a theatrical presentation of my music. And like theater, it asks questions, provokes thought, and takes you on an emotional journey portraying good and bad, light and dark, joy and sorrow, redemption and salvation. I do not endorse a way of life, but describe one, and the audience is left to make its own decision and judgment."

• 2:31:05Speaker 03

  Perfect statement.

• 2:31:06Yasi Salek?

  Should we talk about the LA tour stop where Warren Beatty shows up and gives her a $30,000 ring, which she puts on her middle finger? Conveniently, just in time for the Dick Tracy premiere.

• 2:31:15Speaker 03

  That is the show where she is pissed off and she's fighting with her team and saying everybody looks like a goddamn William Morris agent.

• 2:31:22Yasi Salek?

  So mad that the, she hates when the front row is industry people because they have, which is so true, actually. If you ever go to, do you, wait, remember when we went to Depeche Mode and the floor was the weirdest mix of people? It was like, industry people and then like 58-year-old goths who were like getting their best life. And you were like, this should, these, this is what, this is who should be here.

• 2:31:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's a very LA experience.

• 2:31:44Yasi Salek?

  Totally. Okay. So, it was originally supposed to be, now that we're getting into the Truth or Dare moment, it was supposed to be an HBO documentary focused on the tour's performances, and she had asked David Fincher to direct it. But he had to drop out last minute because he was hired to direct his first feature film, Aliens 3, which you say is a good movie. I have not seen it.

• 2:32:04Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 2:32:04Yasi Salek?

  Okay. It was panned, though, wasn't it?

• 2:32:06Speaker 03

  Alien is a classic, of course. Directed by Ridley Scott. The sequel, directed by James Cameron, Aliens. You will get people in the Aliens versus Alien camp of which one is the best. Alien 3 gets a bad rap, partially because it was using new CGI that was like very cutting-edge at the time.

• 2:32:27Yasi Salek?

  We hate CGI.

• 2:32:28Speaker 03

  That does look bad, but it actually has aged well. It's the kind of bad CGI that I think is charming now.

• 2:32:36Yasi Salek?

  Okay, you like it.

• 2:32:37Speaker 03

  It got worse before it got better.

• 2:32:38Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:32:39Speaker 03

  Like, it started kind of really cool, actually.

• 2:32:41Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 2:32:41Speaker 03

  I think Alien 3 holds up, personally.

• 2:32:45Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 2:32:45Speaker 03

  I also just love David Fincher, and you can see so much of his style in it and the casting choices and certain things that just would come to define his work later that it's...

• 2:32:55Yasi Salek?

  It also is very much God works in mysterious ways because if David Fincher had directed Truth or Dare, we'd have, we wouldn't have Truth or Dare. We'd have something else, probably.

• 2:33:02Speaker 03

  Totally. And I think it worked out how it was supposed to.

• 2:33:05Yasi Salek?

  Right, which is that she went with an unknown 25-year-old director named Alec Kosheyan.

• 2:33:11Speaker 03

  Kosheyan.

• 2:33:12Yasi Salek?

  Sorry, Kosheyan. She had seen his senior thesis from Harvard, which was a pop opera version of Wuthering Heights. And she loved it and she followed his career from then. I don't know if he had much of a career, but.

• 2:33:25Speaker 03

  And then didn't she try, or they were gonna maybe try and make it an actual feature of Wuthering Heights?

• 2:33:30Yasi Salek?

  We'll get into it because there's actually a song, I think, I can't remember if it's this episode or next episode, but there is a Madonna song that was meant to be for that. It's, it's Rain.

• 2:33:41Speaker 03

  Can you imagine? Wow.

• 2:33:43Yasi Salek?

  So because he wanted to film, which I think is really genius to have all the BTS be black and white and all the performance be in color to just kind of have that differentiation. But because of the black and white element, New Line Cinema was like, well, we're not putting, we're taking our money out. We don't want any black and white. And then Madonna was like, I don't care. I just believe in his vision. Um, I'll pay for it. Four million dollars.

• 2:34:08Speaker 03

  Best investment.

• 2:34:09Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Oh, my God, imagine. The black and whiteness like is, it makes it. We're looking at our. It's over there. Or Patrick's video just copy. I have it on Blu-ray. Liz Rosenberg said, I was totally against it because I don't think the world needs to see what goes on backstage. In some ways, the best show you're gonna see is onstage in front of the curtain. I'm an.

• 2:34:26Speaker 03

  Liz.

• 2:34:27Yasi Salek?

  I know. I'm old fashioned and feeling protective and wanting everyone to see the best of Madonna. I worry that it might not have been in her best interest to show the underbelly of the tour. This was in 2019, so she was just like reminiscing.

• 2:34:37Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 2:34:38Yasi Salek?

  And then there was also the HBO.

• 2:34:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:34:41Yasi Salek?

  Blonde Ambition World Tour Live special directed by David Mallett, which became the most watched non-sports event in the channel's 18-year history.

• 2:34:51Speaker 03

  I would love to revisit that.

• 2:34:52Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Anyways, Truth or Dare is amazing. We could probably have an entire four-hour conversation about it, but.

• 2:34:59Speaker 03

  It comes back later in the, in the docket when it's released.

• 2:35:03Yasi Salek?

  Yes, yes, okay.

• 2:35:03Speaker 03

  So we can wait till then. Put a pin in Truth or Dare. So Truth or Dare is being filmed.

• 2:35:07Yasi Salek?

  Yes. Unfortunately, now we have to. No, no, unfortunately. I'm sorry. I don't know why I said that. Neutrally, we now have to talk about I'm Breathless music from and inspired by the film Dick Tracy. Okay, I'm gonna be honest. I'll, I'll put my whole heart on the line. I don't go back here very often. This is not a town I visit.

• 2:35:24Speaker 03

  But you know what? Listening to it was a fucking joy.

• 2:35:26Yasi Salek?

  It's a joy, totally.

• 2:35:27Speaker 03

  It was a joy. It's really good.

• 2:35:29Yasi Salek?

  I'm going bananas. It's a crazy song.

• 2:35:33Speaker 03

  He's a man. So good. Sooner or later, obviously.

• 2:35:38Yasi Salek?

  It's just insane that there's like all these like ba-dum-bum-bum songs and then it's Vogue.

• 2:35:43Speaker 03

  I know.

• 2:35:46Yasi Salek?

  It's like meh, see, and then Vogue. It's like so funny.

• 2:35:49Speaker 03

  It's weird because Dick Tracy, the film was a hit.

• 2:35:53Yasi Salek?

  Yes, it was. Commercial hit.

• 2:35:55Speaker 03

  And the soundtrack was a hit. Why was it never adapted for the Broadway stage?

• 2:35:59Yasi Salek?

  I saw a quote that said that a film executive afterwards was like, I don't, this made me not want to make big budget movies like this anymore.

• 2:36:09Speaker 03

  Because of the experience making it?

• 2:36:11Yasi Salek?

  I'm not sure. Or maybe, maybe like it didn't, like while it performed well, it didn't like make a ton of money for how much it cost.

• 2:36:18Speaker 03

  She got some first dollar grosses on the movie and she also got the...

• 2:36:24Yasi Salek?

  The soundtrack went double platinum.

• 2:36:26Speaker 03

  And the soundtrack success was because of Vogue.

• 2:36:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:36:29Yasi Salek?

  Because at that point, you have to remember that's besides probably the single.

• 2:36:34Speaker 03

  The single.

• 2:36:34Yasi Salek?

  It's the only place you could buy it, you know? And then in September, this is where Patrick's really about to shine. It's the MTV VMAs and the first live performance of, not the first I guess she's done it.

• 2:36:46Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:36:46Yasi Salek?

  The performance of Vogue at the VMAs. Let it rip, babe.

• 2:36:51Speaker 03

  We talk about the VMAs. It's really hard because...

• 2:36:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it depends what age of person we're talking to right now. Like people our age.

• 2:36:59Speaker 03

  It's like we're dismissive of them. Everyone's like, why don't they just end it? Why does it still happen?

• 2:37:04Yasi Salek?

  But they were so important.

• 2:37:08Speaker 03

  It's like, it's such, it's so part of like the pop vocabulary of like, what is the VMA performance?

• 2:37:14Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:15Speaker 03

  I think not enough anymore. I think people don't really think about it in the same way, but there was a period of time where because of Madonna.

• 2:37:23Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:23Speaker 03

  You could go back to the Like a Virgin VMA performance, which is like...

• 2:37:27Yasi Salek?

  Well, that was the very first VMAs ever and that kind of legitimized the awards show.

• 2:37:33Speaker 03

  Where you're like, okay, certain VMA performances are so iconic that it's like a huge part of a pop star's

• 2:37:40Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:40Speaker 03

  legacy.

• 2:37:41Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:37:41Speaker 03

  And the Vogue performance is definitely one of those performances.

• 2:37:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:45Speaker 03

  It's like, you know, they're dressed like in 18th century Baroque French garb.

• 2:37:54Yasi Salek?

  So amazing.

• 2:37:57Speaker 03

  She took the idea of like, what we were talking about before, this like aspiring toward mythos and grandeur and she just like injected steroids into it and was like, you know, Louis XIV.

• 2:38:12Yasi Salek?

  I mean.

• 2:38:12Speaker 03

  It was perfection.

• 2:38:15Yasi Salek?

  I can't prove it, but Sofia Coppola would have been about 18 or 19 years old. Just saying she probably saw this.

• 2:38:25Speaker 03

  Um, totally.

• 2:38:26Yasi Salek?

  You know what I mean? And it probably embedded.

• 2:38:28Speaker 03

  She gravitated toward Madonna, as we will see later.

• 2:38:31Yasi Salek?

  Exactly.

• 2:38:32Speaker 03

  Because she popped up.

• 2:38:34Yasi Salek?

  Pops up in a music video.

• 2:38:35Speaker 03

  In a little music video.

• 2:38:37Yasi Salek?

  Anyways, while this is an incredibly iconic performance, she does not win video of the year. She loses that and best female video to Sinead O'Connor, and she also loses best dance video to MC Hammer.

• 2:38:50Speaker 03

  Rude. So rude. Homophobic.

• 2:38:52Yasi Salek?

  And best choreography to Janet Jackson. And best art direction to B-52s.

• 2:38:59Speaker 03

  I mean, it sounds like a situation where the B-52s had the most art direction.

• 2:39:03Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, probably a lot of art direction going on.

• 2:39:05Speaker 03

  Like kooky, colorful, blah, blah, blah. You know, Janet Jackson's choreography was just so rigid.

• 2:39:15Yasi Salek?

  Would 1990 have been Rhythm Nation?

• 2:39:18Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 2:39:19Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. I mean.

• 2:39:20Speaker 03

  That's like, it's like, it has so much precision.

• 2:39:23Yasi Salek?

  It's such a good video.

• 2:39:24Speaker 03

  But I think that in terms of the legacy that Vogue's choreography means more.

• 2:39:30Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:31Speaker 03

  But that's just me. It did win best director for David Fincher.

• 2:39:35Yasi Salek?

  That's right.

• 2:39:35Speaker 03

  Some taste in the director's branch.

• 2:39:37Yasi Salek?

  And editing and cinematography.

• 2:39:38Speaker 03

  Whatever the director's branch was.

• 2:39:39Yasi Salek?

  The director's branch of the VMAs. The director's guild of the VMAs.

• 2:39:43Speaker 03

  Even when the VMAs became like the public voted.

• 2:39:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:46Speaker 03

  Like, they weren't allowed to vote on director, art direction, choreography.

• 2:39:50Yasi Salek?

  You guys are too stupid.

• 2:39:51Speaker 03

  They're like, you're not experts on that. We are.

• 2:39:53Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so Christopher Flynn, like I said before, I had, sorry, I mistakenly said he had already died, but he died here this fall, about a month after the.

• 2:40:00Speaker 03

  He saw the Vogue performance and was like, I can go now.

• 2:40:02Yasi Salek?

  I can go now. I trained her well.

• 2:40:04Speaker 03

  She did it.

• 2:40:04Yasi Salek?

  Of course. It's so sad. Does she rest? No. She somehow whips together a new single within a month or two.

• 2:40:13Yasi Salek?

  It's called Justify My Love.

• 2:40:15Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, a little song.

• 2:40:17Yasi Salek?

  It's so, again, I'm just like, it's so crazy to-

• 2:40:20Speaker 03

  Where did it come from?

• 2:40:21Yasi Salek?

  Track-

• 2:40:22Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:40:22Yasi Salek?

  Like a prayer to Vogue to justify my love, right?

• 2:40:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:40:26Yasi Salek?

  We're like, shooting up in terms of like, leaps and bounds of like, artistic development.

• 2:40:34Speaker 03

  It's like what everyone's saying that AI is doing now, where it's like, it hits a certain level and then it just spirals, snowballs into something ungovernable. So we're at that point, the inflection point, the explosion.

• 2:40:48Yasi Salek?

  I am obsessed with Justify My Love.

• 2:40:51Speaker 03

  Me too. Banned.

• 2:40:52Yasi Salek?

  The single cover alone, the leather hat, the sig, yeah.

• 2:40:58Speaker 03

  Cubby hole.

• 2:40:59Yasi Salek?

  Cubby, full cubby hole.

• 2:41:01Speaker 03

  This was like those nights at the cubby hole with Sandra. Really inspired.

• 2:41:06Yasi Salek?

  Meanwhile, she probably never set foot in that cubby hole. Um.

• 2:41:10Speaker 03

  She was maybe at the Eagle. She went somewhere.

• 2:41:13Yasi Salek?

  Fascinatingly, so this is the lead single from the Abaculate collection, which we're gonna talk about. The story behind the song, I'm obsessed, starts with a woman named Ingrid Chavez, who was briefly the girlfriend of Prince. She was known as the spirit child on his 1988 Love Sexy album. She does the outro on Alphabet Street, amongst other things. Prince was like, look, why don't you write some poems and we'll make a poetry album together? And they start, I guess, doing this in January of 88, the poetry session at Paisley Park. And Prince is like improvising on keyboards and Ingrid's slam poetry, I guess. But they were like, we need to, sorry, we need to stop because we have to go film Graffiti Bridge, the sequel to Purple Rain.

• 2:41:58Yasi Salek?

  Um, and somehow through the filming of this movie, Ingrid Chavez meets Lenny Kravitz, and they start dating. And he takes her-

• 2:42:06Speaker 03

  She has a type.

• 2:42:07Yasi Salek?

  She has a type. He takes her to Andrea Betz, the producer, to make a song. And so she's like, well, I have this letter that I wrote Lenny, but I never sent him. Those will be the lyrics. And they lay down this song, and Lenny Kravitz is like, okay, I'm gonna try to get you a deal with this demo. It doesn't work out. They break up. Then they're at the premiere of Graffiti Bridge, and Lenny Kravitz goes to Ingrid, oh, by the way, Madonna's gonna record that song. And that is Justify My Love.

• 2:42:35Speaker 03

  So is she credited on the song?

• 2:42:36Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:42:37Speaker 03

  Still hurts. Your boy, your ex-boyfriend takes the song, he's like, I gave it to Madonna.

• 2:42:41Yasi Salek?

  I gave it to Madonna.

• 2:42:43Speaker 03

  Behind your back.

• 2:42:44Yasi Salek?

  Also, the lyrics are my, me writing to him. She's, what Madonna is reciting in that is this woman's unsent letter to Lenny Kravitz.

• 2:42:54Speaker 03

  You know Madonna was not leaving Lenny alone either.

• 2:42:57Yasi Salek?

  Well, I didn't, you know, who knows what was going on there?

• 2:43:01Speaker 03

  She wasn't not playing with that. Let's just say that.

• 2:43:06Speaker 03

  Sorry, I know this woman.

• 2:43:08Yasi Salek?

  I mean, they're both gorgeous. I hope it happened.

• 2:43:10Speaker 03

  Same.

• 2:43:11Yasi Salek?

  But like, I want to kiss you in Paris. I want to hold your hand in Rome. I want to run naked in a rainstorm.

• 2:43:16Speaker 03

  Headless.

• 2:43:25Speaker 03

  But Lenny's moaning on the track?

• 2:43:26Yasi Salek?

  That's Lenny moaning. And there's also a six-minute track under, like in one of the tracks, and it's just Madonna, Heavy Breathing, is part of the layers of the track.

• 2:43:34Speaker 03

  Love when she does that.

• 2:43:35Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Um, here's Yasi's, um, musicology corner. The repetitive drum loop that goes throughout the song is a sample from the Public Enemy song, "Security of the First World" from 1988.

• 2:43:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:43:51Yasi Salek?

  Which itself was built from a sample of the song Ashley's Roach Clip, 1974, by The Soul Searchers, although some people say the breakbeat was copying James Brown's Funky Drummer, which has been used in a lot of breakbeats. Seventy other songs have sampled that Public Enemy song.

• 2:44:08Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, it's the kind of drum loop that seems like a preset that comes with every type of recording software. It is so classic.

• 2:44:18Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. It's so good. The video?

• 2:44:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:44:25Yasi Salek?

  We've, we mentioned Tony Ward as one of the hot mermaids. He has become Madonna's boyfriend. I'm gonna say it. I'll go on record. To me, he is Madonna's hottest boyfriend.

• 2:44:36Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 2:44:37Yasi Salek?

  By like, a country mile.

• 2:44:40Speaker 03

  I love Tony Ward.

• 2:44:41Yasi Salek?

  Insane that someone looks like that. He looks like Spartacus, but like yassified. He's like yassified Spartacus, Tony Curtis.

• 2:44:47Speaker 03

  He has such a beautiful profile.

• 2:44:49Yasi Salek?

  Oh, stunning.

• 2:44:49Speaker 03

  Love his nose.

• 2:44:50Yasi Salek?

  Everything.

• 2:44:51Speaker 03

  His jawline. Here we go. His tan.

• 2:44:54Yasi Salek?

  Everything.

• 2:44:55Speaker 03

  His complexion. He's also an actor.

• 2:44:58Yasi Salek?

  An actor.

• 2:44:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Hustler White, Bruce LaBrus. Look it up.

• 2:45:01Yasi Salek?

  He was also roommates with Esteban Oreal in LA, which is one of my favorite tids of information.

• 2:45:08Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:45:09Yasi Salek?

  It's just great.

• 2:45:10Speaker 03

  Love.

• 2:45:10Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so Tony, I brought that up because Tony Ward is in this video, as well as the models Wallace Franken and Amanda Casale. Sort of, uh, gender bending, if you will. Brazilian actress Luciana Silva, Debbie Mazur, who had just shot a little movie called Goodfellas.

• 2:45:27Speaker 03

  Debbie's on the way up.

• 2:45:29Yasi Salek?

  And Jose and Luis, from The Dancers from Blonde Ambition. It's shot in black and white at the Hotel Royal Monseaux in Paris. It's gorge. It's giving Knight Porter homage.

• 2:45:41Speaker 03

  It's, uh, you know, earlier we spoke about, you know, we spoke about the Express Yourself video, the crawling under the table scene being so influential. In Vogue, there's a shot that's like a horse, P-horse recreation where Madonna is like, the, the hair falling to one side and you see the reflection that a lot of people have mimicked. This started a trope in music videos that was just like, like fun, sexy, running through the hallways of a hotel.

• 2:46:07Yasi Salek?

  Right, right. Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 2:46:09Speaker 03

  You get it in like, there's a Pet Shop Boys, Bruce Weber video for being boring that has like that same vibe. It was like, Anyway, very important.

• 2:46:18Yasi Salek?

  I also feel like it has some like callback feeling to the Open Your Heart video because of the idea of going and seeing what's going on in each room.

• 2:46:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:46:27Yasi Salek?

  Well, like, kind of like how you would see what's going on in each of the booths that was watching.

• 2:46:30Speaker 03

  Voyagerism and danger of like, and when it's like, when you shoot in a hotel like that, it has this vibe of like that there were probably people staying in that hotel when they were shooting.

• 2:46:40Yasi Salek?

  They did rent out the entire floor, but.

• 2:46:41Speaker 03

  What are these people up to?

• 2:46:42Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty sure she accidentally laughed. Do you know that part where like, it's, I think, is it Jose and Lucy? Can't remember. And they part and you can see her in the back, just like, she starts laughing. It's like so perfect. I'm so glad that he included it in the video because it's like this really moment of like joy and like humor, you know?

• 2:47:00Speaker 03

  There's a moment where she laughs in Truth or Dare that we don't need to get into. It's so, like, the most inappropriate moment to laugh. That is also so funny.

• 2:47:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, she is.

• 2:47:08Speaker 03

  Catch real shit like that. That's the best.

• 2:47:11Yasi Salek?

  I like when she laughed here though, because, and this is a little presaging of what we're gonna get into with the sex book and all of it. She's always approached sexuality with a winking humor that most people miss. And it's, I think, to her endless chagrin, you know? And I like that it's in here already. Like, it's always kind of been there, you know? This is also later in 1991, they talked to her about this video in The Advocate. It's a very famous interview where she's pretty like open. And she said, "Even though I dealt with some other than heterosexual themes in Justify My Love, unfortunately, some people just saw it in a superficial way and didn't really want to deal with what it." And the guy says, "Deal with what?" And she said, "The sexual themes in it. It wasn't just about me. It's about life, about human nature.

• 2:47:55Yasi Salek?

  I think everybody has a bisexual nature. That's my theory. It could be wrong." Early adopter of the everyone's gay philosophy. MTV said, "No. We will not be airing this. Thank you so much."

• 2:48:08Speaker 03

  And that's why I have a VHS of it. They sold it because it was banned from television.

• 2:48:14Yasi Salek?

  They're like, burning crosses? Yes.

• 2:48:17Yasi Salek?

  Me, homosexual?

• 2:48:18Speaker 03

  Gay people?

• 2:48:19Yasi Salek?

  Homosexuality?

• 2:48:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:20Yasi Salek?

  Glancing homosexuality? Absolutely not. I do believe there's some nipple in it. Not hers, but um.

• 2:48:26Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:48:27Yasi Salek?

  I'm gonna tell you how easily manipulated I am that I watched this video twice and then spent $600 at A Jean Provocateur. As if, as if there's like any, as if I'm gonna look like, you know? But now I have $600 of A Jean Provocateur. And there's nothing wrong with having beautiful lingerie.

• 2:48:44Speaker 03

  No, you gotta be reminded sometimes.

• 2:48:46Yasi Salek?

  Exactly. What a bizarre single for The Immaculate Collection, given The Immaculate Collection is just holiday Lucky Star borderline. It's all her kind of like fun times, old songs, you know?

• 2:48:58Speaker 03

  Was there another single or was that it? That was the one new song?

• 2:49:01Yasi Salek?

  That was the one new song. Oh, Rescue Me, which I think is criminally underrated. I love that song.

• 2:49:10Speaker 03

  It's good.

• 2:49:10Yasi Salek?

  Her vocals are crazy on it.

• 2:49:21Speaker 03

  Weird, the same year as Delay, Power of Love, just saying.

• 2:49:25Yasi Salek?

  There was something in the water?

• 2:49:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, The Immaculate Collection, just an indelible artifact of my youth. Everything is contained within this CD.

• 2:49:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was it.

• 2:49:36Yasi Salek?

  I think I got Like a Prayer and This in the same year from my beloved BMG Music Club. I taped that penny right onto that postcard, checked a few boxes.

• 2:49:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:48Yasi Salek?

  Mailed it off.

• 2:49:49Speaker 03

  Columbia House, I think, is where my sister got it from.

• 2:49:52Yasi Salek?

  Six CDs came in the mail and I was like, surely I will never have to pay the piper for this.

• 2:49:57Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, we had 12, I think, including like.

• 2:49:59Yasi Salek?

  Maybe it was 12, yeah.

• 2:50:00Speaker 03

  Probably Toni Braxton.

• 2:50:02Yasi Salek?

  This is how cheap CDs were back then, that they could afford to just literally dole out dozens of CDs. Oh yeah, Use Your Illusion, 100%.

• 2:50:13Speaker 03

  But as a gateway drug to Madonna, The Immaculate Collection is pretty insane because it's just like so many smash hits in a row.

• 2:50:22Yasi Salek?

  Including Cherish, I'll have you notice.

• 2:50:24Speaker 03

  Including Cherish, of course.

• 2:50:26Yasi Salek?

  It is on there. Crazy for you? Let's fucking go.

• 2:50:30Speaker 03

  Borderline.

• 2:50:32Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it's, it's phenomenal.

• 2:50:39Speaker 00

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• 2:51:08Yasi Salek?

  So in 1991, this is just a fun tid for the heads. She told Jonathan Ross that Michael Jackson had called her about doing a song together for his album Dangerous. Also, I'll go ahead and say it, a fucking phenomenal album, wall-to-wall bangers.

• 2:51:25Speaker 03

  A great time to revisit this album on the occasion of the acclaimed new film.

• 2:51:29Yasi Salek?

  Right, by the time this podcast comes out, we'll have come and gone.

• 2:51:35Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so Madonna said, so we got together and he played me the music. It was very unfinished, the track. And he said he wanted to call the song "In the Closet." And I said, "Really? You want to call this song "In the Closet?" And he said, "Yeah." And I said, "Do you know what that implies?" And he sort of giggled a bit. And I said, "Well, you know I like to deal with these kinds of ironic innuendo things. So if you want to go that way." And he said, "Yes." Apparently she wrote some lyrics, but he didn't like them.

• 2:51:57Speaker 03

  And she went that way and he said, "No."

• 2:51:59Yasi Salek?

  And he was like, she said ultimately he didn't want the content of the song to live up to the title.

• 2:52:04Speaker 03

  I need to hear what she wrote for that song.

• 2:52:06Yasi Salek?

  Please leak the Madonna version of "In the Closet."

• 2:52:10Speaker 03

  Oh my god.

• 2:52:11Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so in the meantime, she's preparing for her first Oscar performance, singing "Sooner or Later," the Sondheim song from Dick Tracy. Let's talk about it.

• 2:52:19Speaker 03

  This is like...

• 2:52:20Yasi Salek?

  The look, she's in full Hollywood glamour mode. She's got...

• 2:52:23Speaker 03

  Incredible.

• 2:52:24Yasi Salek?

  The gloves up to the elbow, dripping in $20 million of diamonds. The first stole. And she goes with...

• 2:52:34Speaker 03

  Michael Jackson.

• 2:52:35Yasi Salek?

  Michael Jackson. And I had not remembered this, but when I went back to look into it, I was like, oh, it's true. None of those photos are from the red carpet because they were banned from the red carpet because they were too famous. And they were like, no one will look at the actors. You guys cannot, you're too nuclear level of famous, especially together. So all the photos we have are like paparazzi photos of them like coming from the limo and going in the back door of the shrine auditorium.

• 2:53:01Speaker 03

  Oh, she's like, she's like diamond covered, basically.

• 2:53:05Yasi Salek?

  Twenty million dollars, babe.

• 2:53:06Speaker 03

  He's in white. He's, of course, dressed by Michael Bush and Dennis Tompkins.

• 2:53:11Yasi Salek?

  He's wearing cowboy boots.

• 2:53:12Speaker 03

  Fashion designers.

• 2:53:13Yasi Salek?

  Black cowboy boots.

• 2:53:15Speaker 03

  Snake skin pants.

• 2:53:16Yasi Salek?

  Yep. You don't really see the lower half of his look very much unless you like look for it. Anyways, a real, a real moment.

• 2:53:22Speaker 03

  Incredible belt. They look so, it's so like acid trip celebrities. There you go.

• 2:53:28Yasi Salek?

  Hundred percent.

• 2:53:29Speaker 03

  Crazy.

• 2:53:30Yasi Salek?

  If that was posted now, you'd be like, AI made that. That didn't happen.

• 2:53:33Speaker 03

  We don't have two people this iconic that could even go to an event like that together. I, I, I can't think of who it would be.

• 2:53:40Yasi Salek?

  Taylor Swift and Kanye.

• 2:53:42Speaker 03

  That's so not as fabulous as this.

• 2:53:45Yasi Salek?

  It's not, but it would.

• 2:53:46Speaker 03

  It's really like.

• 2:53:47Yasi Salek?

  It would make.

• 2:53:48Speaker 03

  The glamour is gone.

• 2:53:49Yasi Salek?

  It would make as much waves.

• 2:53:50Speaker 03

  True.

• 2:53:51Yasi Salek?

  Maybe infamous is the word, not iconic.

• 2:53:52Speaker 03

  Right. Her performance of Sooner or Later.

• 2:53:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, please go on.

• 2:53:57Speaker 03

  At the 1991 Academy Awards.

• 2:53:59Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:54:00Speaker 03

  One of the best musical performances ever on the Oscar stage.

• 2:54:04Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 2:54:05Speaker 03

  If you have not seen it, go.

• 2:54:06Yasi Salek?

  Run, don't walk.

• 2:54:07Speaker 03

  Run, don't walk, go watch it. It perfectly showcases like her sheer star power because she's alone on stage.

• 2:54:14Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:54:15Speaker 03

  And she's hamming it up from stage entrance to stage exit. She doesn't quit. It's like, it's a, it's a little bit comedic. She's doing a sort of burlesque nod. It's old Hollywood. It's Marilyn Monroe. It's ridiculous, but it's like so brilliantly conceived and choreographed.

• 2:54:46Speaker 03

  Because in the movie, she performs the song.

• 2:54:48Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:49Speaker 03

  In a little bit of a more like sultry, serious way. This is like definitely.

• 2:54:53Yasi Salek?

  It's like theater.

• 2:54:54Speaker 03

  For the stage where it's like bam bam, you know, like she's doing these like crazy gestures, hamming it up. It's crazy.

• 2:55:03Yasi Salek?

  This song won also.

• 2:55:03Speaker 03

  She's Jessica Rabbit.

• 2:55:06Yasi Salek?

  Another formative, if ever an icon for me. Um, she won, but she didn't win, actually. It won because she did not have any.

• 2:55:12Speaker 03

  She performed it, but didn't write it, so she didn't win.

• 2:55:14Yasi Salek?

  But. All right. In May, Truth or Dare is released. You're right. We talk about it here. Premiers at Cannes. The incredible reveal at Cannes.

• 2:55:22Speaker 03

  The two piece.

• 2:55:23Yasi Salek?

  Of the two piece.

• 2:55:24Speaker 03

  The cone bra, bike short.

• 2:55:26Yasi Salek?

  Which they make it sound like she was in a thong and fucking nipple pieceies.

• 2:55:30Speaker 03

  Midriff on the Cannes red carpet for back then. It's like she may as well have just like lit a cherry bomb. It's like she nine 11'd the Cannes red carpet with that look. I swear to God. It's like, up until recently, women were not allowed to not wear heels on the Cannes carpet. There's like very strict dress codes. So she's at it again, folks.

• 2:55:50Yasi Salek?

  I was checking my memory. You said midriff and it's like, yes, two in, there's not, you don't even see her belly button. It's a high waisted garment. Like, it is really wild thinking of like what she had to tear down, given that like what you see like a celebrity wear to Coachella now, which you're like, I straight up saw your whole asshole. Your asshole is not just your ass, your asshole. I can see it.

• 2:56:13Speaker 03

  Rose McGowan said, hold my beer and went to the VMAs with Marilyn Manson.

• 2:56:17Yasi Salek?

  So true. Also, honestly, really iconic.

• 2:56:19Speaker 03

  Really important outfit. Um, Madonna was back to brunette.

• 2:56:23Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 2:56:23Speaker 03

  At this premiere.

• 2:56:24Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:56:25Speaker 03

  There's also some very important paparazzi photos of Madonna that week jogging along the croisette in the morning, surrounded by her personal trainers, her bodyguards, cars that are driving around her and paparazzi. Baseball hat, sunglasses.

• 2:56:43Yasi Salek?

  And you guys won't even go to the gym. You know what I mean? What's your fucking excuse?

• 2:56:48Speaker 03

  Major.

• 2:56:49Yasi Salek?

  All right. Let's talk about Truth or Dare again.

• 2:56:52Yasi Salek?

  I love that the rough cut was three hours and Madonna wanted to keep it all. And Alec said that-

• 2:56:57Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 2:56:58Yasi Salek?

  Alec said, "It's not gone with the wind, honey."

• 2:57:01Speaker 03

  I know, it is interesting. There are so many like big songs that she does in that tour that are not in true there, not even gestured to.

• 2:57:07Yasi Salek?

  I would love the director's cut. Well, I guess it would be Madonna's cut. The director didn't want it to be three hours long.

• 2:57:12Speaker 03

  The real director's cut.

• 2:57:13Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, but he had final cut. So there's also a part, which I don't know if I included in this, where she had to like mog Harvey Weinstein. She had to power mog Harvey Weinstein because it was Miramax was releasing it and he was trying to push them to cut it even more. And she was just like, "No, fuck you."

• 2:57:34Speaker 03

  He met his match.

• 2:57:34Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Well, he was, and he was obviously a little bit less powerful then.

• 2:57:37Speaker 03

  And this is why I'm so happy that Alec ended up doing it instead of David, as even though we've established how I feel about David. It just feels so fly on the wall, so spontaneous. It was like a direct cinema style documentary and like in, in the style of like D.A. Pennebaker.

• 2:57:59Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 2:58:00Speaker 03

  Or the Maisels Brothers.

• 2:58:02Yasi Salek?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:58:03Speaker 03

  And it's like this observational voyeuristic, but like also diaristic movie because it has her voiceover. That's kind of like gluing the whole thing together throughout. And obviously she's very like, she's engaging with the camera. She's very aware that it's there at all times, but also like, she's, she's living in this moment where it's almost like she doesn't have the like time to think about what she's gonna say or do.

• 2:58:30Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 2:58:30Speaker 03

  So there's a little bit of like, it's not that she's performing a version of herself in the movie because she's on tour. And it's like, you're seeing her in these moments. They obviously shot so much, but it's like when she gets going offstage between songs, there's like a montage in it where the tour's not going well. And he just included her being like pissed off about sound.

• 2:58:50Yasi Salek?

  Screaming at Christopher.

• 2:58:52Speaker 03

  Screaming at Christopher, getting offstage, being like, "Well, that was one of the worst ones ever."

• 2:58:57Yasi Salek?

  It, I mean, there's obviously.

• 2:58:59Speaker 03

  Very real feeling.

• 2:59:00Yasi Salek?

  It has some reality TV elements in the sense of like, there's some setup things. I'm not fake, but setup, like the childhood friend that is like miraculously appears from thin air to visit with her, which she would like never have like. And it was like, you know, asking her on the spot to be the godmother. Yeah. Of her daughter and Madonna's like, oh. Um, or like the, her dad, you know, that's was state, not staged, but you know, it was cleared or whatever. And then the visit to her mother's grave.

• 2:59:34Speaker 03

  Right. There were definitely like setups for the documentary, which were brilliant and they really work for it.

• 2:59:39Yasi Salek?

  I saw it differently after I read Christopher's book because he, his whole, he talks about how much he was angry about that because he didn't realize it was going to be filmed. And he, again, I don't know if that was true. Like, I, I don't know. This is what he said in his book. And so you see in it, he's like off to the side, leaning against a tree. And then now with that conic, I'm like, oh, no wonder. Cause he was fucking pissed.

• 3:00:02Speaker 03

  Listen, she knew what she was doing.

• 3:00:04Yasi Salek?

  Also, it's like.

• 3:00:05Speaker 03

  And it's an incredible moment. And it's also a promise to try moment.

• 3:00:09Yasi Salek?

  Because it's, it's not false, you know?

• 3:00:12Speaker 03

  I found it really sweet.

• 3:00:13Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, me too.

• 3:00:13Speaker 03

  And she's like, I have to, I want to get in with her. I'll have to lay like this.

• 3:00:16Yasi Salek?

  That's just the difference between those two people, right? It's like, she, she does still, like, her whole thing is to like live for the camera or for the stage or like, live truthfully in front of everybody. And he's obviously a different kind of person, you know?

• 3:00:34Speaker 03

  But I also think that probably in the making of the film, it did become like a diary to her and like that she was used to telling Alec things. And then it was sort of like, that was her way of expressing that feeling that she needed to get out in some way. So I think it's okay.

• 3:00:51Yasi Salek?

  Incredibly beautiful. It's a beautiful scene.

• 3:00:53Speaker 03

  I also just want to talk about like how it's shot in 16 millimeter black and white. And then the concert sequences are shot in color and they look like maybe they're shot thirty five. I'm not sure if they are, but that kind of differentiation was so striking.

• 3:01:11Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, because it gives like dimensionality of like, okay, now you you know what dimension you're in. You're in intimate dimension and then you're in like the show, you know, you're a spectator.

• 3:01:21Speaker 03

  And it centers the music and the show as the more important thing in a way because it's shot in this like way like this is the work.

• 3:01:28Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:01:29Speaker 03

  But then it's like you get the kind of like intimacy of all the backstage.

• 3:01:32Yasi Salek?

  Like you feel like you're part of the backstage, but you feel like you're watching as the audience, the, yeah, it's really cool.

• 3:01:39Speaker 03

  And it feels like, uh, Don't Look Back and like those music documentaries that were also shot in black and white, sixty millimeter. We obviously watched the Depeche Mode one oh one documentary, which has like a similar vibe. And what's interesting about the Depeche Mode one is like they made that one about their fans.

• 3:01:54Yasi Salek?

  Right. They didn't include themselves in the like vulnerability part of it.

• 3:01:58Speaker 03

  And in this one, it's like all about the crew and the dancers on the tour.

• 3:02:02Yasi Salek?

  Right, it's like the family, but also Madonna, you know, all as part of one.

• 3:02:07Speaker 03

  But I thought what was like so special about it, and obviously it became a matter of some contention later, but like, it made stars out of all the figures on the tour that are not the star. You know, she's the star, but then it's like to her, these people are the stars.

• 3:02:22Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:02:22Speaker 03

  And you really feel that like affection in the film. And it was like, for a lot of people in my generation, I, or gay guys in my generation, I feel like it was the first time that we saw gay guys just like hanging out with each other.

• 3:02:35Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:35Speaker 03

  Like.

• 3:02:36Yasi Salek?

  Like just being gay guys.

• 3:02:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, not being like performers or not being, I don't know, it's like you just didn't see them, gay guys, very much at all.

• 3:02:44Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:02:44Speaker 03

  I guess, and so.

• 3:02:45Yasi Salek?

  Well, that was something I read said about it that I did think was really interesting where it was like, it wa- it it featured gayness without making it about like the gayness, you know, like it wasn't like trying to make some statement. It just, it was like a naturally existing part of this world and that's why it felt so cool to see it, you know?

• 3:03:05Speaker 03

  Well, I think.

• 3:03:05Yasi Salek?

  They didn't draw attention to it.

• 3:03:06Speaker 03

  Even more powerful than that to me is the way that we got to watch gay guys bullying a straight guy.

• 3:03:15Yasi Salek?

  He was so bummed when he ran to tell Madonna.

• 3:03:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's like, gay guys are always bullied, like, in the 90s, in the way that it was spoken about in the media or whatever. You're seeing, it's always like the gay guy getting gay bashed, or whatever, by the straight guys. Or like, you're growing up gay and you're surrounded by straight people and you feel that way, or you feel like in danger of that. So seeing the tables turned like that is so empowering and insane and intoxicating. And the fact that they're being like bitchy, like, I was just like, I need to be friends with them. I'm going to be like that.

• 3:03:49Yasi Salek?

  Well, he said, Oliver said he was like homophobic before he went on that tour.

• 3:03:53Speaker 03

  And the way he talks about it is so funny because it's so real. He's like, oh, I don't got a problem with fags or anything like that. He's like, this isn't about them being fags. Like, he was just calling them fags left and right. It was also like so cute.

• 3:04:04Yasi Salek?

  He was like, what is it making fun of them? He's like, why does he always have to wear those little shorts in my face? Like, we get it, you're gay.

• 3:04:10Speaker 03

  So definitely like opened a pathway where I was like, and it's crazy when you watch it now. Because I'm like, the way that they are all talking and gossiping and being nasty together is like the way that me and my friends talk still. Like, it's like that, it's just such a real dynamic. And seeing that captured was very magical at the time.

• 3:04:29Yasi Salek?

  I think that, I think that part is very cool. There's like a sort of a controversial part. Well, there's also, there's obviously the truth or dare scene. And a lot of people, I think, remember Madonna simulating a blowjob on like the Evian bottle. It was an Evian bottle.

• 3:04:44Yasi Salek?

  But the other part of that was there's a.

• 3:04:46Speaker 03

  No, it was Vichy Catalon.

• 3:04:48Yasi Salek?

  Vichy Catalon.

• 3:04:50Speaker 03

  Sorry, sorry for the delay, you guys. A million Madonna fans screamed.

• 3:04:53Yasi Salek?

  We have to be right about the water bottle.

• 3:04:55Speaker 03

  It's not Evian.

• 3:04:56Yasi Salek?

  Vichy Catalon, a superior water. There's a dared kiss between Saleem and Gabriel, and they do it. But Gabriel wasn't out of the closet. And he asked them to please cut it. And they did not. And.

• 3:05:13Yasi Salek?

  They didn't. That's just.

• 3:05:16Speaker 03

  The kiss isn't what gave it away.

• 3:05:18Yasi Salek?

  Well, listen. Salim later said, I must have received.

• 3:05:21Speaker 03

  You're Madonna's backup dancer.

• 3:05:23Yasi Salek?

  Well, Oliver.

• 3:05:24Speaker 03

  I know, but the assumption is probably.

• 3:05:27Yasi Salek?

  Well, what Salim said.

• 3:05:28Speaker 03

  Oliver had to come out as straight.

• 3:05:29Yasi Salek?

  Right. No, halfway through the movie, I forgot that he was straight. I was like, oh, you're what?

• 3:05:35Yasi Salek?

  Anyways, what Salim said is, I must have received 2,000 messages from people around the world telling me how their lives changed by seeing a gay kiss on the big screen. So.

• 3:05:42Speaker 03

  And then I sued, so.

• 3:05:44Yasi Salek?

  They did all sue.

• 3:05:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:05:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Madonna is now on the cover of Vanity Fair, shot by Steven Mizell.

• 3:05:53Speaker 03

  Well, this is one of her most important photo shoots and magazine covers, canonically speaking. The hair was by Garin, the legend.

• 3:06:01Yasi Salek?

  Garin is also the one that bleached her eyebrows, right? Early e-girl shit, babe. Madonna was an e-girl before any you hoes.

• 3:06:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:06:09Yasi Salek?

  She had the blonde streaks in the front. She had no eyebrows.

• 3:06:13Speaker 03

  The makeup was by Francois Norris.

• 3:06:16Yasi Salek?

  Have you ever heard of him, babe? Ever watched him do a Sephora?

• 3:06:19Speaker 03

  She was wearing a Bob Mackie gown.

• 3:06:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:22Speaker 03

  And an Yves Saint Laurent stole on the cover.

• 3:06:24Yasi Salek?

  Shades of what she wore to the Oscars, yeah.

• 3:06:28Speaker 03

  It's fucking unbelievable, basically.

• 3:06:30Yasi Salek?

  She looks fake.

• 3:06:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just insane. It's like the most glamorous a human being has ever looked.

• 3:06:36Yasi Salek?

  After you peroxide your hair to fucking hell and back, how you still have hair on your hair. I have four hairs left and I didn't even really do that.

• 3:06:44Speaker 03

  It's the magic of pieces and wigs and we're not getting into it.

• 3:06:48Yasi Salek?

  She's genetically blessed.

• 3:06:50Speaker 03

  We'll believe that's her real hair. This was the interview that she did with Lynn Hershberg where she said that she has a fear of mediocrity.

• 3:06:59Yasi Salek?

  Nothing has ever resonated so profoundly around my body and soul.

• 3:07:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. I definitely stole that line and I would say it to my parents when I was a 12-year-old gay demon. Because yes, I was already reading Vanity Fair religiously.

• 3:07:15Yasi Salek?

  I'm picturing you sitting at the Olive Garden with your family and you're like.

• 3:07:19Speaker 03

  We didn't go to Olive Garden. We went to, where did we go?

• 3:07:21Yasi Salek?

  Claim jumper?

• 3:07:22Speaker 03

  Carros.

• 3:07:23Yasi Salek?

  Carros, love of carros.

• 3:07:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:07:25Yasi Salek?

  You're like, Mom, Dad, I have a great fear of mediocrity. And they were like, okay.

• 3:07:33Speaker 03

  I'd be like, I'm not ordering the turkey burger. I have a fear of mediocrity.

• 3:07:38Yasi Salek?

  Turkey burgers are really like prime mediocrity. Disgusting food. Get it out of my face. Very important cover and also very important moment because she had been trying to get Steven Mizell to do a photo book. She was like, you're amazing, do a photo book. And separately, eight months earlier, she had been approached by Simon and Schuster to write her own book book. And she had taken some meetings about it, but she was like, I'm not gonna do that. She was just like, information gathering. And then Steven Mizell said to her, why don't you just do a book with me? And she was like, you know what, babe? Yes.

• 3:08:11Speaker 03

  Of course she said yes. You don't say no to Mizell.

• 3:08:15Yasi Salek?

  I don't get starstruck that often. And when I do, it's the most weirdest people on earth, like the girl from the TV show.

• 3:08:21Speaker 03

  Where did you see Steven Mizell? I saw him at Whole Foods.

• 3:08:23Yasi Salek?

  At a Purple magazine dinner and I was like, speechless. I was like, Steven Mizell.

• 3:08:31Speaker 03

  The holy one.

• 3:08:32Yasi Salek?

  He, the aura of this man, he's like ageless and he's still so cool. And like the way he, I was just like.

• 3:08:40Speaker 03

  Draped in silk.

• 3:08:41Yasi Salek?

  Steven Mizell. But put a pin in that because first she has to go hang out with Jose Canseco and learn some baseball.

• 3:08:48Speaker 03

  Hang out, that's what they're calling it now.

• 3:08:50Yasi Salek?

  She was learning baseball for Penny Marshall's A League of Their Own. I don't know what else they did, but.

• 3:08:56Speaker 03

  You can quote me on this and leave this one in. She definitely fucked Jose Canseco.

• 3:09:00Yasi Salek?

  She had sex with Jose Canseco?

• 3:09:01Speaker 03

  There is no, I'm sorry. She and I have the same taste in men. Jose Canseco in 91? Get the fuck out of here.

• 3:09:11Yasi Salek?

  I personally do not find Jose Canseco.

• 3:09:15Speaker 03

  Oh my God, he was so hot back then. Maybe even still, I haven't seen him in a while, but Jose, there's something about Jose.

• 3:09:23Yasi Salek?

  Well, whatever they did or didn't do, they did learn some baseball.

• 3:09:27Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 3:09:28Yasi Salek?

  Baseball for Penny Marshall's.

• 3:09:30Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 3:09:31Yasi Salek?

  Incredible League of Their Own.

• 3:09:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. Did her own stunts. She hit those balls.

• 3:09:36Yasi Salek?

  I fucking love that movie.

• 3:09:38Speaker 03

  It's a classic.

• 3:09:39Yasi Salek?

  It's.

• 3:09:41Yasi Salek?

  First of all, we were watching and I hadn't watched in a long time and I was like, oh my god, Gina Davis has the original Instagram face, but naturally.

• 3:09:51Speaker 03

  But it also like is the sort of face that looks old fashioned.

• 3:09:55Yasi Salek?

  Oh, it's perfect. It's just perfect.

• 3:09:57Speaker 03

  Judy Garland or something.

• 3:09:59Yasi Salek?

  It's except like those luscious, it's like, who looks like that naturally? It's crazy. She's so stunning.

• 3:10:06Speaker 03

  She looks really good in that period with that hair.

• 3:10:09Yasi Salek?

  Totally. Rosie O'Donnell is in this movie. It's where

• 3:10:12Speaker 03

  Hilarious.

• 3:10:12Yasi Salek?

  Madonna, yes, strike up a friendship.

• 3:10:14Speaker 03

  Lovable. Their chemistry, just insane, the two of them.

• 3:10:18Yasi Salek?

  She was not out of the closet at that time.

• 3:10:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. She hadn't yet thrown herself at Tom Cruise for 10 years on her daytime talk show at that point, so.

• 3:10:26Yasi Salek?

  I just, okay.

• 3:10:31Speaker 03

  But you know.

• 3:10:32Yasi Salek?

  Madonna, I believe around this time is dating Vanilla Ice.

• 3:10:35Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 3:10:36Yasi Salek?

  And it's while she's filming A League of Their Own that she gets a little visit from Shep Alert.

• 3:10:42Speaker 03

  Shep Watch.

• 3:10:43Yasi Salek?

  Shep Watch, Shep Pettybone, who drops off a tape of songs he's been working on. And so filming wraps and she's like, okay, let's,

• 3:10:52Yasi Salek?

  maybe let's work with these. Or not. She goes to New York to work with them and she's like, I hate this. If I had wanted the album to sound like that, I'd have worked with Patrick Leonard in LA. And is like, start over. They write four songs together.

• 3:11:04Speaker 03

  So shady, so unnecessary.

• 3:11:06Yasi Salek?

  Well, it's actually, there's amazing.

• 3:11:08Speaker 03

  But I get it.

• 3:11:08Yasi Salek?

  There's so much shade thrown between the producers as well.

• 3:11:11Speaker 03

  She was experiencing growth. We evolve in life. We want new things.

• 3:11:14Yasi Salek?

  There is, I think, a Patrick Leonard quote where he's talking about Shep Pettybone, where he's like, one of the most overrated producers of all time.

• 3:11:23Speaker 03

  Ooh, the rivalry.

• 3:11:24Yasi Salek?

  And then the interviewer is like, well, Madonna chose him. And he goes, everybody makes mistakes.

• 3:11:30Speaker 03

  Sure. Vogue was a mistake.

• 3:11:31Yasi Salek?

  I'm a Patrick Leonard truther and I will hold the flame. I think he is

• 3:11:35Speaker 03

  Love.

• 3:11:36Yasi Salek?

  Incredible and, and long-term important in term, he brings something incredibly important and emotional and beautiful to her music that cannot be, you know, put some respect on the man's name, but also Shep, Shep Watch, babe.

• 3:11:51Speaker 03

  My, that's my sis. That's auntie.

• 3:11:54Yasi Salek?

  Okay, the four songs they wrote together at this time are Deeper and Deeper, Erotica, Rain, and Thief of Hearts.

• 3:12:02Yasi Salek?

  Um, but they change a lot in the next nine months.

• 3:12:05Speaker 03

  Cher gave an interview.

• 3:12:06Yasi Salek?

  Oh, thank God. Okay.

• 3:12:08Speaker 03

  Uh, with Steve Kometko on CBS.

• 3:12:10Yasi Salek?

  Sure.

• 3:12:11Speaker 03

  She was promoting her new album, Love Hurts. Um, and she spoke about Madonna in the interview. And it was because Kometko asked her, like, who are you listening to today? Whose music that you like? And she was like, oh, you know, like, I like Whitney Houston. I love Eric Clapton. She's giving me sorts of answers. And then he says, what about Madonna? And she goes, what about her?

• 3:12:37Speaker 03

  And he's like, you know, in some ways she reminds me of you. She's known to speak her mind. Uh, you know, she goes against the grain, things that you've done. And then Cher cuts him off. And she first says, there are lots of things that I respect about her. I think that she knows how to work the business like nobody I've ever seen. And then she says, and this part I want to try and do from memory because I've known, I've had it memorized for years.

• 3:13:06Yasi Salek?

  You're not doing the voice?

• 3:13:08Speaker 03

  I'll do my, I'll do a little bit of the delivery. I can't do Cher's voice. She goes, and there's something I don't like about her. She's mean. And I don't like that.

• 3:13:26Speaker 03

  And I remember having her over to my house a couple of times because Sean and I were friends. And she was just so rude to everybody. And it seems that she has so much that she doesn't have to act the way that she acts. Like a spoiled brat all the time. It seems to me that if you've reached the level of acclaim that she's reached, you can do whatever you want to do. You should be a bit more magnanimous. And a little bit less of a cunt.

• 3:14:00Yasi Salek?

  I love that some people have Invictus memorized and you have Cher's 1991 diatribe against Madonna.

• 3:14:06Speaker 03

  She ate her up.

• 3:14:09Yasi Salek?

  Cher was at their wedding.

• 3:14:10Speaker 03

  Well, they ended up, you know, they made up years later and whatever.

• 3:14:13Yasi Salek?

  Do you?

• 3:14:14Speaker 03

  And then during the celebration tour, there's like, um, there was like a video montage of like all of Madonna's most controversial moments or whatever. And she put the Cher clip in it, which is so hilarious.

• 3:14:25Yasi Salek?

  One thing we've lost as a society and a culture is like this age old tradition of the pop star shitting on the next pop star publicly. Like the Mariah Carey, I don't know her moment, you know, like this is a time honored tradition.

• 3:14:44Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 3:14:45Yasi Salek?

  But like, they don't do it anymore.

• 3:14:47Speaker 03

  They do it online and it's not as fun.

• 3:14:49Yasi Salek?

  Or they do like a song.

• 3:14:51Speaker 03

  It's like Cher sitting on a couch on CBS calling Madonna a cunt.

• 3:14:55Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:55Speaker 03

  Where they had to bleep it.

• 3:14:57Yasi Salek?

  Did you also recently saw a rant?

• 3:14:58Speaker 03

  And then he went, don't mince words.

• 3:15:00Yasi Salek?

  There was a random, like one of these Madonna fan Instagram pages posted something. And did you see this? Boy George just randomly strolls along and comments, but why is she so mean? This, this is like last week.

• 3:15:14Speaker 03

  George, don't get me started on George.

• 3:15:16Yasi Salek?

  But I was like, sir.

• 3:15:19Speaker 03

  He's very online.

• 3:15:20Yasi Salek?

  Um.

• 3:15:20Speaker 03

  He will reply to you.

• 3:15:22Yasi Salek?

  All right. So now that we've, thank God, we couldn't have missed that 1991. Now we've had a complete picture of 1991.

• 3:15:27Speaker 03

  Moment.

• 3:15:28Yasi Salek?

  She, so she goes down to Miami to start scouting locations for the sex book. She falls in love with a 1930s home down there and buys it for $5 million. On New Year's Eve, she had met a Cuban American heiress.

• 3:15:42Speaker 03

  On brickle?

• 3:15:43Yasi Salek?

  On brickle, yeah. Ingrid Casares has entered the building. She had been dating Sandra Bernard. They met on New Year's Eve. Her and Sandra broke up, but Madonna and her became close. And also around this time, Gianni Versace moved to Miami as well.

• 3:16:01Speaker 03

  Neighbors.

• 3:16:01Yasi Salek?

  Miami's happening. Um, this is when she teams up also the next month with Warner Brothers to make her own label. Group of labels, Maverick.

• 3:16:13Speaker 03

  Huge deal.

• 3:16:14Yasi Salek?

  Madonna Veronica Frederick Maverick.

• 3:16:20Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 3:16:21Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I didn't know that. Did you know that?

• 3:16:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 3:16:25Yasi Salek?

  Yes, so Veronica DeChev Ronnie was the COO. So Maverick is Madonna Veronica Frederick Maverick.

• 3:16:37Speaker 03

  Her brain.

• 3:16:37Yasi Salek?

  I know. So they make a record company, a film production company, a music publishing thing, television broadcasting, book publishing, merchandising. She gets sixty million dollars, twenty percent royalties from the music, one of the highest rates in the industry. Um, only Michael Jackson, I think, had a higher royalty rate or equaled. And everything with the music label was a sixty forty venture with Warner Brothers. Also, a twenty year old guy is hired for the Maverick record label, who had been friends with Freddie Deman's daughter at Beverly Hills High School. His name was Guy O'Seary. His name still is Guy O'Seary.

• 3:17:11Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 3:17:13Yasi Salek?

  Twenty year old Anar.

• 3:17:14Speaker 03

  Right place, right time.

• 3:17:16Yasi Salek?

  Really good Anar.

• 3:17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:17:18Yasi Salek?

  This is what's so Madonna and so crazy. Like, you get this, like, insane, like, I'm a power player in the industry moment, and you're like, cool, my first two releases are gonna be erotica and the sex.

• 3:17:32Speaker 03

  Thank god.

• 3:17:33Yasi Salek?

  But first, This Used To Be My Playground comes out, along with the film. I love this song.

• 3:17:42Speaker 03

  What, I don't even know how old I was, a child, of course, when all of this happened. I remember being in my friend's car and a limo drove by us, and like, her little sister was like, it's Madonna, and then stuck her face in the window and started going, this used to be my playground.

• 3:17:59Yasi Salek?

  This song, while I love it, it's firmly in my category of Sunday songs, songs that feel like Sunday.

• 3:18:06Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 3:18:07Yasi Salek?

  So I don't put it on that much because it makes me feel like it's Sunday.

• 3:18:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:18:10Yasi Salek?

  And I don't like that.

• 3:18:11Speaker 03

  And it's a soundtrack song, so it's like not conveniently on any of the albums or...

• 3:18:16Yasi Salek?

  But it was a moment.

• 3:18:17Speaker 03

  Collections, totally.

• 3:18:18Yasi Salek?

  And I cried at the end of League of Their Own when they play that, and all the old ladies come to play baseball or whatever.

• 3:18:23Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 3:18:31Yasi Salek?

  Okay, let's just start with September 29th, 1992, which the first single comes out, which is "Erotica."

• 3:18:37Speaker 03

  Jungle Boogie.

• 3:18:38Yasi Salek?

  Samples "Cool in the Gangs," "Jungle Boogie," and "El Yom Ulika Ala Keshaba" by Lebanese singer Fayruz.

• 3:18:50Speaker 03

  Obscure.

• 3:18:51Yasi Salek?

  What's your vibe on "Erotica"?

• 3:18:53Speaker 03

  I mean, it's just ingrained in my DNA, so I don't really feel anything about it. It's sort of like a pulse.

• 3:18:59Yasi Salek?

  Right. My name is Dieter. I'll be your mistress tonight.

• 3:19:02Speaker 03

  The thing about "Erotica" as an album is like, not that it doesn't have big singles, because it does, but it's like, this album is like a vibe record.

• 3:19:12Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:19:12Speaker 03

  You know, like, this is like perennially in style. This is like gay guys hanging out music. It's just on in the background all the time. This is like, I don't want to say background music as like a...

• 3:19:23Yasi Salek?

  It's not back... Yeah, but I get what you're saying. I get exactly what you're saying.

• 3:19:26Speaker 03

  You know, I'm not being dismissive of it. It's just so important that it's always there. So it's like, I love it, but it's not like, it doesn't hit you... "Erotica," the song, doesn't hit you with like the emotional punch.

• 3:19:38Yasi Salek?

  No.

• 3:19:38Speaker 03

  Or bring you on the journey that like "A Like a Prayer" does.

• 3:19:41Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 3:19:42Speaker 03

  Or some of these other songs.

• 3:19:43Yasi Salek?

  I would argue "Rain" does. And we'll get there when we get to "Rain." I'm a fucking...

• 3:19:47Speaker 03

  "Rain" is like the crescendo of the album.

• 3:19:49Yasi Salek?

  I will lay down in traffic for "Rain." Um, yeah, "Erotica," it's a perfect first song. You know, I think in my mind, it's part and parcel with "Justify Your Love." You know, like, it has a similar vibiness to it and like a looping beat kind of thing.

• 3:20:13Speaker 03

  Part of it also might be that the music video is a little bit...

• 3:20:18Speaker 03

  Of a lesser music video in the videography of Madonna.

• 3:20:22Yasi Salek?

  Right, because it was not.

• 3:20:24Speaker 03

  It's BTS.

• 3:20:25Yasi Salek?

  It's BTS from the sex book, shot by Fabian Barron, who is an important player. You know what I learned about the erotica?

• 3:20:30Speaker 03

  They saved their money on that video.

• 3:20:32Yasi Salek?

  You'll, you'll have a lot to say about this, so I'm interested. Photoshop has been invented. This is the first Madonna album after Photoshop is invented.

• 3:20:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:20:41Yasi Salek?

  And Fabian Barron, which I didn't know this, was a typographer as well. And so what, that's why you finally get this like erotica Madonna, like they were able to do layers like. I thought that was really interesting, because like, I don't know, it hadn't occurred to me why, how that would change the visual look of albums.

• 3:21:03Speaker 03

  Right. Trippy.

• 3:21:06Yasi Salek?

  I think erotica probably landed like a lead balloon.

• 3:21:13Speaker 03

  The single?

• 3:21:14Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:21:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. Because it's not like, um, it doesn't have like a hook.

• 3:21:18Yasi Salek?

  I think it's a perfect offering to like foreshadow what the album is. But I also feel like it's not like, it's not a pop hit, you know?

• 3:21:27Speaker 03

  It's not a pop hit, but it's like such an important song.

• 3:21:29Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 3:21:30Speaker 03

  And like, if you go to a Madonna concert and you start, you hear the beginning of erotica, the crowd goes insane. You know what I mean? It's like a very good live song.

• 3:21:38Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 3:21:39Speaker 03

  It's a good like nightclubbing song.

• 3:21:41Yasi Salek?

  It debuted at number 13 on the Hot 100, and it did peak at number three. So it's not like it did terrible, you know?

• 3:21:48Speaker 03

  No, that's good.

• 3:21:49Yasi Salek?

  You know what? It did better than I was thinking. So this album is produced by Shep Pettibone, Madonna, and Andre Betts. Also brings in Doug Wimbish, who played bass on Grandmaster Flash's "The Message." No big deal. House, the house band of Sugar Hill Records. Um, he's great because he gives a lot of interviews about this and he's so funny, because he's obviously just like an older man that's like been around and is like. My first day in the studio, she rolls up and she's got a box with these Playboy magazines from like the 60s. She comes in, Dre sees her and she's chilling. Dre's like, yo, what's up, Mo? How you doing? They start having a conversation. Dre says, what do you got here in this box?

• 3:22:29Yasi Salek?

  Before she can say anything, Dre takes one of the magazines and opens to the center section and is like, damn, these old babes had some titties back then. This is his interview. Dre's real straight up and down with her. She's Madonna. She's got that alpha female vibe. And no disrespect. I'm like, yo, let me see that. She's like, no, no, I don't want you to see anything until you play some bass.

• 3:22:48Speaker 03

  She loves talking shit with the boys.

• 3:22:51Yasi Salek?

  And he's like, I'm not doing anything until I see some titties in half. It's really funny.

• 3:22:56Speaker 03

  She's like, yeah, check out these broads.

• 3:22:58Yasi Salek?

  Literally.

• 3:22:58Speaker 03

  Pretty hot, right? I'd bang her.

• 3:23:01Yasi Salek?

  So Andre Betts, obviously, we know him from Justify My Love. That's how he got roped into this album.

• 3:23:08Speaker 03

  And you can hear it, for sure.

• 3:23:10Yasi Salek?

  And the backing vocals throughout this album are Donna DeLorean, Nikki Harris. It's interesting. I know that, I know that it is part of the narrative that the release of The Sex Book overshadowed

• 3:23:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:23:28Yasi Salek?

  the erotica album, but they really were of a piece, I think.

• 3:23:34Speaker 03

  It's like, you can see the concept of calling the album erotica. And then the book being sex and it's like behind a Mylar bag and it's like being advertised like porn.

• 3:23:43Yasi Salek?

  The visual identity is very similar. Also, just even during the making of the album, she's doing both at the same time. So she's constantly in and out of the studio going to shoot for The Sex Book. So her headspace, at the very least, is all one place, you know?

• 3:23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:23:57Yasi Salek?

  Um.

• 3:23:57Speaker 03

  And the images intersect a lot.

• 3:23:59Yasi Salek?

  Totally. And, you know, the alter ego, Mistress Dita, my name is Dita, that came from The Sex Book. Inspired by the German actress, Dieter Parlow.

• 3:24:10Speaker 03

  Love. Madonna being an actress again.

• 3:24:13Yasi Salek?

  Um, I love that they did A League of Their Own and then this. They're like, alright, change up.

• 3:24:20Yasi Salek?

  Different.

• 3:24:20Speaker 03

  Wholesome lesbian no more.

• 3:24:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. The artwork for erotica was Steven Meisel, under the artist direction of Baron and Baron Inc.

• 3:24:29Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 3:24:30Yasi Salek?

  Consisted of Fabian Barrett and photographer Seung Fat Tia. Yeah. What's your favorite, what's your favorite image from The Sex Book?

• 3:24:40Speaker 03

  My favorite image from the sex book is the one that's full color.

• 3:24:45Yasi Salek?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:24:46Speaker 03

  She's butt naked.

• 3:24:48Yasi Salek?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:24:48Speaker 03

  She's squatting.

• 3:24:51Yasi Salek?

  Over the mirror?

• 3:24:52Speaker 03

  No, she's outside.

• 3:24:53Yasi Salek?

  Okay.

• 3:24:54Speaker 03

  There's a big plastic water bottle covering her.

• 3:24:56Yasi Salek?

  Oh, yes, I know.

• 3:24:57Speaker 03

  She's lighting a cigarette.

• 3:24:58Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:24:59Speaker 03

  And her Gucci handbag is off to the side, open.

• 3:25:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it seems like it's like a poolside or something. Yeah.

• 3:25:05Speaker 03

  That's just like the realist, coolest.

• 3:25:10Yasi Salek?

  It's really good.

• 3:25:11Speaker 03

  But there's so many iconic images from the sex book, of course.

• 3:25:15Yasi Salek?

  I hadn't looked at it in a long time. I remember like my uncle had it and we all like, oh, we gotta go look at it. And then my beautiful friend, Andrew Garrettson, thank you so much, Andrew, gifted me one after Tiny Violin Fires. And I hadn't actually looked through it because it was still almost pretty much sealed in the thing. And then I was like, whatever, I'm not gonna keep it sealed forever. I wanna like look at it and use it.

• 3:25:35Speaker 03

  Maybe if you sell it again, but.

• 3:25:36Yasi Salek?

  I don't care. I'm not gonna sell it. So I was like looking at it at night and I was like, this is actually way tamer than it's been made out to be.

• 3:25:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not hardcore.

• 3:25:47Yasi Salek?

  It's not hardcore. Like, it's, it's obviously for the time.

• 3:25:50Speaker 03

  And a lot of it's innuendo. There's like, there's certain things are so iconic in it that they like still get repurposed and used as like Madonna merch and things like that. Like the I'll teach you how to fuck, just type.

• 3:26:01Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:01Speaker 03

  Down the page. But there's like Madonna sitting on the stool and she's sucking her finger and fingering herself in the like black leather.

• 3:26:09Yasi Salek?

  I guess that is kind of.

• 3:26:10Speaker 03

  But she's, it's not like, you can't see the penetration.

• 3:26:13Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:13Speaker 03

  It's implied Madonna biting Tony Ward's nipple ring.

• 3:26:17Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:18Speaker 03

  There's Madonna like simulating giving a guy a rim job. Tony drinking piss.

• 3:26:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:27Speaker 03

  Um, the shaving pubes picture.

• 3:26:29Yasi Salek?

  My favorite, and maybe it's.

• 3:26:30Speaker 03

  Thumb sucking.

• 3:26:31Yasi Salek?

  Because I'm lame, but I, or maybe, no, I always say my favorite, but the one that I was like so drawn to this time was like, there's one that where she's wearing like a baby blue top sweater, like an ingora sweater. And she's like, but nude maybe from the.

• 3:26:44Speaker 03

  Waist down.

• 3:26:44Yasi Salek?

  They sound for the bunny. Do you remember this?

• 3:26:48Speaker 03

  No, but it sounds cute.

• 3:26:49Yasi Salek?

  It's super cute. It's in color. It's really beautiful.

• 3:26:51Speaker 03

  There's one where she's climbing over a fence and her butt's out. There's like orgy spanking, smoking, fucking.

• 3:26:58Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:26:58Speaker 03

  Naked in Miami, masturbating in the mirror.

• 3:27:01Yasi Salek?

  The pizza parlor one is amazing.

• 3:27:03Speaker 03

  Getting finger blasted by Vanilla Ice in the boxer shorts, right?

• 3:27:07Yasi Salek?

  It was a different time.

• 3:27:08Speaker 03

  Making out with Naomi Campbell.

• 3:27:10Yasi Salek?

  Big Daddy Kane is in this.

• 3:27:12Speaker 03

  Hitchhiking naked in the coconut grove is a very famous image.

• 3:27:15Yasi Salek?

  That's my favorite image of all time, I think. I had the poster on my wall as a kid. Okay, sorry, we gotta head to the sex book, but let's get back to erotica. It got mixed reviews.

• 3:27:26Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:27:27Yasi Salek?

  My guy.

• 3:27:28Speaker 03

  A C plus from Entertainment Weekly.

• 3:27:30Yasi Salek?

  I know.

• 3:27:30Speaker 03

  Fuck yourself.

• 3:27:31Yasi Salek?

  David Brown said, before we begin, may I mention that as a single erotica is depressingly trite. That between this frigid melody and your scary My Name Is Dita spoken bits, it's about as sexy as an episode of the Shelley Hack era Charlie's Angels. And the LA Times gave it two stars. Robert Crisgow, the god, guess what? Gave it an A. And look what he said.

• 3:27:51Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 3:27:52Yasi Salek?

  Okay, everybody, let's use our imaginations, shall we? It may be a little hard at first, but if we try, we can have lots of fun. To start, let's pretend that we have nothing against dance music. That instead of fixating on impersonal and mechanical and all those obvious things, we can just enjoy it for what it is. What a genius. Yeah. Like, he just, he like nailed what, what people were getting wrong.

• 3:28:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, everyone's like, it's cold. It's like soulless.

• 3:28:17Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, and he's like, it's dance music.

• 3:28:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:28:21Yasi Salek?

  And Rolling Stone gave it four stars too. So again, it's just like kind of all across the board.

• 3:28:25Speaker 03

  You either get it or you don't.

• 3:28:26Yasi Salek?

  You either get it or you don't.

• 3:28:28Speaker 03

  Which is cooler than just being pandering to the masses and like spoon feeding everyone the same hits.

• 3:28:33Yasi Salek?

  I think it's amazing having the success of Like a Prayer, which went like untold times, whatever, diamond or whatever, and using your newly found collateral in the business world to make exactly what you want.

• 3:28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:28:51Yasi Salek?

  And not try to replicate anything and follow. The one thing I think that I admire so much about Madonna is that she always follows her interests and what lights her up and makes art around that. You know, like, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't feel.

• 3:29:09Yasi Salek?

  Like it's gonna hit, you know? She's just like, this is what I'm interested in. This is what makes me excited.

• 3:29:15Speaker 03

  But there also are hits on.

• 3:29:17Yasi Salek?

  Of course, of course.

• 3:29:18Speaker 03

  So it's like.

• 3:29:19Yasi Salek?

  I don't think she doesn't want to make hits. I'm just saying, it's like, that's, if she wanted, she could have made like a prayer part two, you know, like, or something. This is definitely a leap.

• 3:29:29Speaker 03

  It's a leap and also, but when I look at it, I'm like, I don't know what other direction she could have gone in. Like, it just feels so inevitable. Like, it's such an inevitable follow up.

• 3:29:37Yasi Salek?

  Once you had Chekhov's Justify My Love.

• 3:29:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:29:40Yasi Salek?

  It was never going any other direction, I think. Um, okay, so we talked about the single erotica. I love this cover of Fever. I really do. The more I listen to it, I'm, I love.

• 3:29:52Speaker 03

  It's my most listened to version of Fever, probably.

• 3:29:56Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:29:56Speaker 03

  It's a, it's a song that does have many covers.

• 3:29:58Yasi Salek?

  It's sort of neck and neck. I love the Cramps one, too. The Cramps one is really fucking good. They're neck and neck for me, but yeah, this song has been heavily covered. Um, but God, her version and also all the, all the remixes of her version. It's just, she really, that beat is so sick. Apparently this song started as a real song, like an original song called Goodbye to Innocence, but it like, wasn't working. And so they're trying to fix it and then she just like randomly starts singing Fever while they're trying to fix it. And then they're like, why don't we just actually cover that?

• 3:30:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:30:29Yasi Salek?

  It's a Peggy Lee originally, or I don't know if Peggy Lee wrote it, but the Peggy Lee is the famous version.

• 3:30:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:30:43Yasi Salek?

  All right, the next one is Bye Bye Baby, which samples LL Cool J's Jingling Baby. Jingling baby, go it baby, you jingling baby. I fucking love this song.

• 3:30:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:30:55Yasi Salek?

  This is sixth single. Anthony.

• 3:30:57Speaker 03

  It's so funny because I didn't think that it was a single.

• 3:31:00Yasi Salek?

  Well, once you get.

• 3:31:01Speaker 03

  I didn't realize.

• 3:31:01Yasi Salek?

  Once you get to the sixth single, you know, you're kind of like, maybe not, because we're in, we're in the November of 93. We've gone like a full year. Anthony Shimkin, who worked with Petty Bone, said, Bye Bye Baby was committed to tape with the filtered vocal. It wasn't an afterthought. It was how she heard herself when doing the song. We went to tape with that effect. There was no removing that. Sometimes you apply treatments like that in the mix, but that was committed to tape. Everything was tried that wanted to be tried.

• 3:31:36Yasi Salek?

  I think the vocal effect is makes the song.

• 3:31:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:31:38Yasi Salek?

  Like, what a vision to have.

• 3:31:40Speaker 03

  It's like she's on the phone.

• 3:31:41Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, exactly. Deeper and deeper. I've heard many people call this like one of her most perfect pop songs. Do you agree with that?

• 3:31:48Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 3:31:48Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. This is the second single. What about it makes it such a perfect pop song for you?

• 3:31:55Speaker 03

  It's a bit like what I was saying about Vogue, which is like, it runs away with itself. It's like very sweeps you away kind of song.

• 3:32:04Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:05Speaker 03

  You know, it's, it's, there are songs that are like, like Bye Bye Baby is very like hangout, cute, fun, whatever. It's like, there's like chill songs. There's like vibey songs. And then there's like songs that are like giving you like drama, romance, passion.

• 3:32:21Yasi Salek?

  It's so funny. I was gonna say the word drama.

• 3:32:22Speaker 03

  Sweeping you off your feet, you know? And that's deeper and deeper.

• 3:32:25Yasi Salek?

  The, that's like very dramatic, you know?

• 3:32:36Speaker 03

  It also feels like there was this kind of house music.

• 3:32:40Yasi Salek?

  Hmm.

• 3:32:40Speaker 03

  Style that was like very like minor key. Malcolm McLaren, like that would had become big in like fashion. And this feels like a nod to it, but that she kind of like injected it with this pop sensibility that was fabber. I don't know. It's just, maybe it's a really fagety song. Maybe that's what it is.

• 3:33:04Yasi Salek?

  I can't speak to that.

• 3:33:07Yasi Salek?

  The opening phrase obviously is a reference to The Sound of Music. When you know the notes to sing, you can sing most anything. It's do re mi. There's also a nod to the lyrics of Barry White's, I'm gonna love you just a little more, baby, which is deeper and deeper. In love with you, I'm falling sweeter and sweeter.

• 3:33:22Speaker 03

  The disco.

• 3:33:24Yasi Salek?

  I was gonna say, what about the,

• 3:33:26Speaker 03

  Inspiration is interesting.

• 3:33:26Yasi Salek?

  I light this candle and watch it throw tears on my pillow moment. The Latin, the Latin bridge.

• 3:33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, love.

• 3:33:34Yasi Salek?

  But I love the flamenco.

• 3:33:36Speaker 03

  Flamenco guitar.

• 3:33:37Yasi Salek?

  Shep Pattybone said that sometimes Madonna would call him in the middle of the night and be like, I need, we need to fix this. And I think of them, she called him in the middle of the night. It was like, the middle isn't working. And then she wanted a flamenco guitar.

• 3:33:49Speaker 03

  Put Las Labonita in the middle of it. So mature.

• 3:33:52Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, Shep was like, I like the idea of taking a Philly house song and putting Las Labonita in the middle of it, but that's what she wanted. So that's what she got.

• 3:33:58Speaker 03

  And bitch, it works.

• 3:34:00Yasi Salek?

  It really does work. You wouldn't think it would, but it really does.

• 3:34:09Speaker 03

  This is what she was doing because it's like the inspiration for this was very like disco. It was like there, she wanted like the flavor of disco and it was coming across like a little gay fashion, electronic.

• 3:34:24Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:34:25Speaker 03

  She wanted to bring something like grounding into the song, I think. And that's where those guitars came from.

• 3:34:29Yasi Salek?

  Bring a little barrio back into it. Bring him back to the barrio. Also, there's that lyrical callback to Vogue in the outro.

• 3:34:37Speaker 03

  I know. So good.

• 3:34:39Yasi Salek?

  It's really good.

• 3:34:40Speaker 03

  I love when people do that.

• 3:34:42Yasi Salek?

  We both read, um, Harry Tafoya's Pitchfork.

• 3:34:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:34:47Yasi Salek?

  Sunday, uh, what do they call it? Sunday Review where they re-review an album. Um, and he mentioned in it, which is, I mean, it's a great, in general, the whole thing. You guys should read it. Um, but he mentioned how this album has so many callbacks to her earlier work, like kind of embedded in it, which is really cool.

• 3:35:09Yasi Salek?

  How about the video of Deeper and Deeper, directed by Bobby Woods?

• 3:35:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:35:13Yasi Salek?

  What about the, what about the people in it?

• 3:35:17Speaker 03

  This is where I'm gonna get in trouble.

• 3:35:20Yasi Salek?

  You don't like the video? Is it because of her Afro wig?

• 3:35:26Speaker 03

  How do I put this? I do like the video. I love the video. But I also think it's not her best.

• 3:35:33Yasi Salek?

  I think-

• 3:35:33Speaker 03

  I think the execution of the video feels a little bit cheap and ludicrous. I don't know, it's like-

• 3:35:40Yasi Salek?

  Like move bitch, get out the way ludicrous?

• 3:35:42Speaker 03

  No.

• 3:35:42Yasi Salek?

  Or just like silly?

• 3:35:43Speaker 03

  Like, the Afro wigs and the like, you know, it's like, it's also how it was shot. It's sort of, but it's cool. I like that it's shot like that. What she was going for was like a Warhol thing.

• 3:35:54Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:54Speaker 03

  You know, she wanted it to be like, those like Paul Morrisey, like Joe Dalasandro type-

• 3:36:02Yasi Salek?

  It doesn't really have that feeling though, to me.

• 3:36:04Speaker 03

  No, it doesn't, because it's shot in a very 90s way.

• 3:36:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, to me, it really reminds me of that Janet Jackson video that also has everyone hanging out in a room.

• 3:36:13Speaker 03

  That's why Love is Better directed, I think.

• 3:36:15Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:36:15Speaker 03

  Like, I just don't love the directing of this video. I don't like the shots. It's very awkward. Some of it is so candid where you're like, they should have cut that take. Why is it?

• 3:36:23Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:36:24Speaker 03

  You're watching parts that are a little-

• 3:36:26Yasi Salek?

  It didn't need, like, I think, like, the element, like, if they had just, I feel like it didn't need to go so many places. Like, if I, when I think of the parts that I like, like, I love the part in the house party and like, the bananas, like, the girls with the bananas and like-

• 3:36:41Speaker 03

  I mean, but there's some, that's what's so charming about it though. It has this like 90s fashion lunacy to it.

• 3:36:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that I love.

• 3:36:47Speaker 03

  Of like, playing dress up, like-

• 3:36:48Yasi Salek?

  I think, but it's when they go to the club, I'm like, this is kind of boring, you know, like, I don't need you to be in the club.

• 3:36:52Speaker 03

  It all feels kind of like for, I, you know, this video actually impregnated Madonna with Addison Rae. Like, I feel like Addison Rae's vibe is so the deeper and deeper video.

• 3:37:02Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that makes so much sense.

• 3:37:03Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? It's like-

• 3:37:04Yasi Salek?

  Pillow fight, yeah.

• 3:37:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:37:06Yasi Salek?

  There's, well, anyways, the cameos-

• 3:37:08Speaker 03

  The girl, like, Barretts, Edie Sedgwick.

• 3:37:12Yasi Salek?

  Udo Kier, Udo Kier. Who's also in the sex book. Debbie Mazur, Ingrid Casares, Sofia Coppola, who was probably like, I won't be in your sex book, but I'll be in your video. Seymour Stein and Guy O'Seary are in this. Also Holly Woodlawn, porn director Chi Chi LaRue, porn star Joey Stefano.

• 3:37:28Speaker 03

  It's Madonna's factory.

• 3:37:29Yasi Salek?

  So great, yeah. The next song is Where Life Begins, which I'll, I'll say it, it's a sort of a weak moment in the album for me.

• 3:37:36Speaker 03

  I actually love this song. It's weird.

• 3:37:39Yasi Salek?

  I love how weird it is. I don't think it's a bad song at all. It's just a little like I get tripped up by it calls attention to itself a little bit in a way that like it trips me up. Like it takes me out of that like

• 3:37:51Speaker 03

  It's a bit jokey.

• 3:37:53Yasi Salek?

  You know?

• 3:37:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:37:54Yasi Salek?

  But obviously, I think any song that you're overly talking about cutting this is is cool.

• 3:37:59Speaker 03

  But it's one of those like it's tongue in cheek and it's a little too much tongue in cheek.

• 3:38:03Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:38:03Speaker 03

  We're like, okay, har har.

• 3:38:05Yasi Salek?

  It's like the only thing you can eat without getting fat. You're like, okay. The next song is Bad Girl. Let's

• 3:38:13Speaker 03

  Woo.

• 3:38:13Yasi Salek?

  Fucking go. Let's fucking go.

• 3:38:18Speaker 03

  It's crazy to me.

• 3:38:19Yasi Salek?

  What a song.

• 3:38:21Speaker 03

  What's interesting about this is like Bad Girl is a song that feels like it could have come out in any Madonna era.

• 3:38:26Yasi Salek?

  I agree.

• 3:38:27Speaker 03

  This could have been on True Blue.

• 3:38:28Yasi Salek?

  Could have definitely been on Bedtime Stories.

• 3:38:30Speaker 03

  Could have been on Bedtime Story. It's like this to me is like just quintessential Madonna.

• 3:38:35Yasi Salek?

  The video is fucking incredible. It's it. It's a movie.

• 3:38:40Speaker 03

  That video is

• 3:38:41Yasi Salek?

  David Fincher.

• 3:38:42Speaker 03

  Closest we ever came to getting a David Fincher movie starring Madonna.

• 3:38:45Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 3:38:46Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean? That video is a movie.

• 3:38:48Yasi Salek?

  What if that had happened? What a sliding motherfucking doors. What? We would be speaking about Madonna's film career probably very differently right now.

• 3:38:55Speaker 03

  I wouldn't be surprised if she was like supposed to star in the game.

• 3:38:59Yasi Salek?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:39:00Speaker 03

  You know what I mean?

• 3:39:00Yasi Salek?

  That would have been so good.

• 3:39:02Speaker 03

  I know.

• 3:39:03Yasi Salek?

  Um, well, we got this beautiful video starring Christopher Walken and you know, I love a movie where someone plays an angel.

• 3:39:09Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 3:39:09Yasi Salek?

  And this is a little movie.

• 3:39:11Speaker 03

  On a dolly chair always, which was like a nod to filmmaking. It's so charming.

• 3:39:16Yasi Salek?

  And she is, uh, playing apparently had a name. Did that? Did you notice that?

• 3:39:21Speaker 03

  Louise.

• 3:39:22Yasi Salek?

  Where did? It's a music video. They never talk. How did you know her name was Louise Oriole?

• 3:39:27Speaker 03

  She Madonna does this.

• 3:39:29Yasi Salek?

  That's great. I love it.

• 3:39:30Speaker 03

  Mistress Dita, Louise Oriole.

• 3:39:32Yasi Salek?

  Louise Oriole is a successful but promiscuous Manhattan businesswoman.

• 3:39:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, she creates characters.

• 3:39:36Yasi Salek?

  In one night stand.

• 3:39:37Speaker 03

  She builds worlds.

• 3:39:37Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 3:39:38Speaker 03

  Also, I just love that she's an alcoholic and a chain smoker.

• 3:39:41Yasi Salek?

  Which is so not her because she at this point still doesn't really drink much. And

• 3:39:47Speaker 03

  But she looks good doing it.

• 3:39:49Yasi Salek?

  She looks so cool. The fluvogs are back. I have a deep obsession with those fucking fluvogs. They're in Truth or Dare in the, in the scene where I've never seen one single woman look more gorgeous and cooler and hotter than she does. When she's getting ready to go out with fucking Warren Beatty and wearing that little dress and her hair up in the thing with the thing and then she's got the fluvogs on. I found those fluvogs, but the only size they had left was one size bigger than my foot.

• 3:40:13Speaker 03

  Fluvogs used to advertise, they used to have to shoot fluvogs. I used to have to force fluvogs on Maria Testino.

• 3:40:18Yasi Salek?

  So can someone remake those shoes?

• 3:40:21Speaker 03

  I think they still make them.

• 3:40:21Yasi Salek?

  No, they're gone. I've searched far and wide. That's my dream shoe.

• 3:40:25Speaker 03

  They will now, when they hear this.

• 3:40:27Yasi Salek?

  Thank you so much. Call them the Yasi.

• 3:40:29Speaker 03

  You know, I love the pathos of this character she created because it's like she's chain smoking, drinking. And she's like sleeping with strange men, but she has like this like mortal terror about her. Like she knows her life is like out of control.

• 3:40:44Yasi Salek?

  Totally. Well, she's not happy when she lives this way.

• 3:40:47Speaker 03

  Exactly. But um, my favorite part is when she like has the one night stand. And then she goes back to her office the next day and she rips the plastic dry cleaning cover off the Alia suit. So she has hanging in her office, just happens to be back from the dry cleaner. She's like, needs to change clothes, keep working.

• 3:41:07Yasi Salek?

  She's a high, she's a high powered businesswoman, babe.

• 3:41:09Speaker 03

  The wardrobe is all Comte de Garçon, Vivienne Westwood.

• 3:41:12Yasi Salek?

  Her hair looks so good.

• 3:41:14Speaker 03

  Oh my God. The hair, the hair was by Orlando Pita this time. Makeup was Pat McGrath.

• 3:41:20Yasi Salek?

  She's uh, some, one of the most peak gorgeous she's ever looked.

• 3:41:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. And there's like, oh my God, the, when she, when she comes home and she's like, picks up her mountain of mail. At the base of the door.

• 3:41:32Yasi Salek?

  I haven't been home.

• 3:41:33Speaker 03

  First you see her through the peephole.

• 3:41:34Yasi Salek?

  For weeks, because I've been out hoeing.

• 3:41:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:41:36Yasi Salek?

  And this much mail has come.

• 3:41:37Speaker 03

  I'm such an out of control slut. And then she gets home and her mail is piled up on the ground. And then she gets startled and it's her cat that she forgot exists.

• 3:41:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:41:46Speaker 03

  And so she feeds her starving neglected cat and she dumps the cat food out of this giant can. And then as she stands up, she's pouring herself a glass of wine and as she's. Drinking the wine, she licks the cat food off her hand that she got on her hand.

• 3:42:01Yasi Salek?

  Did?

• 3:42:02Speaker 03

  Feeding the cat.

• 3:42:03Yasi Salek?

  This is-

• 3:42:04Speaker 03

  Acting bitch.

• 3:42:05Yasi Salek?

  But this is post, I was gonna say, it really reminded me, and it is post Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman, which was very much that. It has a very similar feel. She's out all night, doing fuck shit, comes home, has the cat, is, you know?

• 3:42:19Speaker 03

  Licking the cat-

• 3:42:19Yasi Salek?

  I wonder if that was like a nod to that, because it's very similar. Um, anyways, we gotta move on because-

• 3:42:24Speaker 03

  She tore it regardless. That video is very special. She dies at the end, spoiler alert.

• 3:42:30Yasi Salek?

  Oh my god, when Chris, when, when he closes, and he takes her away. I love Waiting. I think it's, I think it's an amazing song.

• 3:42:38Speaker 03

  Great.

• 3:42:39Yasi Salek?

  Next time you want pussy, just look in the mirror, baby. Fab.

• 3:42:44Speaker 03

  That was about Warren?

• 3:42:45Yasi Salek?

  I guess so. Must be.

• 3:42:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:42:55Yasi Salek?

  Thief of Hearts.

• 3:42:56Speaker 03

  So good.

• 3:42:57Yasi Salek?

  Here she comes, little Suzy Homemaker.

• 3:43:00Speaker 03

  It's fierce.

• 3:43:02Yasi Salek?

  Were you aware that, um, in January of this year, this song went TikTok viral?

• 3:43:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:43:10Yasi Salek?

  I was-

• 3:43:10Speaker 03

  I was, because everyone realized it's about Annette Bening.

• 3:43:14Yasi Salek?

  Is it?

• 3:43:14Speaker 03

  Allegedly.

• 3:43:15Yasi Salek?

  Because she took Warren?

• 3:43:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:43:17Yasi Salek?

  Bitch, you'll do it, you'll take it, you'll screw it, you'll fake it?

• 3:43:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:43:21Yasi Salek?

  I'm, that can't be why it went TikTok viral, though, because it was-

• 3:43:24Speaker 03

  I think it is why. I think the internet was like, ooh, cat fight from-

• 3:43:28Yasi Salek?

  But then what were people, weren't they doing like weird cooking challenges to it, or like, whatever TikTok-

• 3:43:34Speaker 03

  Things take on a life of their own, you know, but it was part of the, people were revisiting it-

• 3:43:39Yasi Salek?

  Got it.

• 3:43:40Speaker 03

  For whatever reason. And it's just a really fun song.

• 3:43:43Yasi Salek?

  It's such a fun song.

• 3:43:44Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, women beefing with each other can be fun. I mean, obviously gay culture is built upon this, so is the television network Bravo, but we like, we like when women fight.

• 3:43:54Yasi Salek?

  And you can get a lot of it because we hate each other.

• 3:43:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:43:57Yasi Salek?

  Intra, intra-

• 3:43:58Speaker 03

  You heard what we said about Cher.

• 3:43:59Yasi Salek?

  Intra-female, uh, competition is very real.

• 3:44:10Yasi Salek?

  I don't have anything written down about words. It doesn't mean I have nothing to say about it.

• 3:44:13Speaker 03

  No, I actually like revisiting this album was really, because I do just play it in the background a lot, as I said, but then listening to it intentionally, I'm just like, love this song, love this song.

• 3:44:23Yasi Salek?

  Exactly, just love this song. But now, I'm gonna need forty.

• 3:44:28Speaker 03

  An umbrella.

• 3:44:29Yasi Salek?

  I'm gonna need an umbrella, because it does a little bit stick out vibes-wise.

• 3:44:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's a total change of pace, but there's something about the kind of minor key that the whole album is in, and then it switches to like major key. I don't even know if that's true.

• 3:44:48Yasi Salek?

  I don't know about music.

• 3:44:49Speaker 03

  It's just how I'm, this is how my brain is formatting it.

• 3:44:52Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:44:53Speaker 03

  There's a shift in the song into another register that feels like an epiphany from the album. It's like the whole record has all of this like tension, and then rain is like the release.

• 3:45:04Yasi Salek?

  A release, totally.

• 3:45:05Speaker 03

  And it's very much like written that way, designed that way. It's like what rain is, you know, elementally.

• 3:45:13Yasi Salek?

  It's so beautiful. I think that it was the, the idea that it was originally written for that musical adaptation of Wuthering Heights that never transpired, makes a lot of sense, and how maybe it was then put onto the album.

• 3:45:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:45:27Yasi Salek?

  But fits in. Shet Pettybone created, so there's like a panning percussion that happens. And which I love it because it does kind of simulate the feeling of hearing rain.

• 3:45:38Speaker 03

  When you listen with headphones and stuff, it's like very surround, kind of.

• 3:45:42Yasi Salek?

  And he did that by cutting and slicing samples of percussion breaks from an extended version of the Skritty Palitti 1985 hit, Perfect Way.

• 3:45:51Speaker 03

  Go off.

• 3:45:52Yasi Salek?

  There you go, for my Skritty Palitti heads.

• 3:46:01Yasi Salek?

  I love this song and I could listen to it a hundred times in a row. The video.

• 3:46:04Speaker 03

  The video is very important.

• 3:46:07Yasi Salek?

  Mark Romanek.

• 3:46:07Speaker 03

  A love letter to Japan.

• 3:46:10Yasi Salek?

  Even though they originally wanted, I think, Fellini to play the director, but he couldn't do it. And then maybe another crazy iconic director

• 3:46:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:46:22Yasi Salek?

  also couldn't do it.

• 3:46:23Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:46:23Yasi Salek?

  And then they decided on Ryuchi Sakamoto, the composer who plays the director. Because it's basically a video within a video.

• 3:46:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:46:32Yasi Salek?

  This hair.

• 3:46:33Speaker 03

  Okay, you want to get into the hair?

• 3:46:35Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:46:35Speaker 03

  Joanne Garrett did the hair, who works with Madonna a lot, actually. And she did the makeup.

• 3:46:41Yasi Salek?

  Now, is that her real hair or is that a wig? I just mean, I, I, did she have a black pixie?

• 3:46:47Speaker 03

  Paul!

• 3:46:48Yasi Salek?

  Did she have a dark brown pixie? I just like, I don't know.

• 3:46:50Speaker 03

  She called it the glass hair. That was like the title for what she did with that look, which was like, to make it look really shiny.

• 3:46:59Yasi Salek?

  I loved it.

• 3:47:00Speaker 03

  Really like PC.

• 3:47:01Yasi Salek?

  And also there's the outfit. She's, I, I still try to recreate the outfit, like, if 10 times a year, with just like the slinky black dress with the gazelles.

• 3:47:11Speaker 03

  Everything in it is Comme des Garçons, Vivienne Westwood, again, and she's wearing them a lot. But she also said the video was inspired by Yoji Yamamoto, but I don't know if she's actually wearing Yoji in it. I think probably some of the crew are, because it's a video within a video

• 3:47:26Yasi Salek?

  Yes, yeah.

• 3:47:27Speaker 03

  concept.

• 3:47:28Yasi Salek?

  Love it.

• 3:47:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:47:29Yasi Salek?

  Her eyes are popping the motherfucker off.

• 3:47:31Speaker 03

  Directed by Mark Romanek. I don't even know if we said it.

• 3:47:33Yasi Salek?

  We, we said it.

• 3:47:34Speaker 03

  Shot by Harris Savitas, the legendary director of photography.

• 3:47:38Yasi Salek?

  It's one of those, very few people have ever looked this beautiful, once again. The B-side? Just want to give a quick shout to the B-side of Rain. The Up Down Suite? This shit is fucking amazing.

• 3:47:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, fan favorite.

• 3:47:51Yasi Salek?

  12 Minute Chicago House, in the style of Madonna. I'll take it.

• 3:47:55Speaker 03

  She brought it back for the Celebration Tour. The fans went crazy. You heard it in the room, if you were there.

• 3:48:01Yasi Salek?

  And then I fell down the Rain Tapes rabbit hole, which I we can't get super into right now. But there is a collection of demos called The Rain Tapes that are online. And was submitted to the Library of Congress for copyright registration, which is how they know it exists. And so there's a lot of like fodder about these Rain Tapes because there's some songs that never came out.

• 3:48:26Speaker 03

  Okay. Something to look forward to.

• 3:48:28Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Um, why is it so hard as the next song?

• 3:48:32Yasi Salek?

  It's nice.

• 3:48:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:48:33Yasi Salek?

  It's a nice song. In This Life is really beautiful and sad.

• 3:48:37Speaker 03

  It ends things on a serious note, a bit, although I know that Did You Do It?

• 3:48:42Yasi Salek?

  Right. Then unends it on a serious note. Well, okay, so it now they've removed that song.

• 3:48:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, that song's gone.

• 3:48:49Yasi Salek?

  But it did exist. I'll talk about that in a second. In This Life is, I think, a really important song, though, and it does end on a serious note. And it's like directly speaking about

• 3:49:01Yasi Salek?

  her friends that she lost to AIDS, like very literally, like thinking about, sitting on a park bench, thinking about a friend of mine. He was only 23. That's Martin Breckowen. Um, and the next verse, thinking about a man I knew who was like a father to me, Christopher Flynn. And it's like a really, you know, plaintive, sad, mournful song.

• 3:49:31Yasi Salek?

  Erotica is really so underrated. I mean, I guess now we can talk about it. Now, maybe it's more properly rated. Given like, you know, you can look at Harry DeFoe's review. I think the community has corrected.

• 3:49:43Speaker 03

  They gave it like a nine or something.

• 3:49:44Yasi Salek?

  But at the time, it was obviously like just completely misunderstood. But like, as, as a piece of work about sex, in quotes, it kind of encompasses a lot of what is involved with sexual relationship or human relationship. It's sex, it's power, it's also love. Rain is a love song. That's like love and connection. And this last song, or

• 3:50:09Speaker 03

  Mortality.

• 3:50:10Yasi Salek?

  Mort- and, and safe sex, you know, it's really about like, it was about AIDS. So, and she's, she's never been shy to talk about that, even the sex book, which I'm not going to open up and read, but the, in the, the whole beginning. Paige talks about how this all takes place in a fantasy world and in her fantasy world, there isn't AIDS, but in the real world, you should use a condom.

• 3:50:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:50:33Yasi Salek?

  Um, anyways, I want to talk about, did you do it for one second? Cause it's actually really funny. Basically, um, they had a running joke with Andrea Betts of he, did you do it? Did you fuck Madonna?

• 3:50:42Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 3:50:43Yasi Salek?

  And he like, I guess, did a rap to it or something and, and had taped it. And then they accidentally played it for Madonna.

• 3:50:50Speaker 03

  Like she wasn't supposed to hear it.

• 3:50:51Yasi Salek?

  No, they played the wrong track.

• 3:50:52Speaker 03

  It was funny.

• 3:50:53Yasi Salek?

  And she was like, we're putting it on the record.

• 3:51:04Yasi Salek?

  We also forgot Secret Garden, by the way. That is, that is still on the album.

• 3:51:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:51:08Yasi Salek?

  Her secret garden is her vagina.

• 3:51:10Speaker 03

  Totally. Where life begins, the secret garden.

• 3:51:12Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:51:14Yasi Salek?

  There is an unreleased song called Shame that the demo's on the internet and it's actually really good.

• 3:51:19Speaker 03

  I can quote Harry's pitchfork thing.

• 3:51:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:51:22Speaker 03

  Quickly to wrap up erotica.

• 3:51:24Yasi Salek?

  It's very good.

• 3:51:25Speaker 03

  I just like the way that he phrased it. He kind of encapsulated what this period was and this sound. He said, twisting and maneuvering her own fame, Madonna ditched the old Hollywood model of stardom as a manicured cult of personality in favor of celebrity as a never ending war, holy and soap opera, referring to Truth or Dare.

• 3:51:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:51:47Speaker 03

  By the early nineties, she had been the third rail of sexual discourse for almost a decade, electrifying audiences and sending conservatives into convulsions with every new release. Parallel to the spectacle ran an infinitely more interesting story. The tale of a lapsed Catholic and her quest to define what she really believed about herself in the world. Without a cosmic script and contemptuous of a patriarch's guiding hand, Madonna's work plunged headlong into sex and emotion. The ecstatic coupling of people between sheets and on the dance floor as the ultimate vehicle for spiritual transcendence.

• 3:52:19Yasi Salek?

  I love that.

• 3:52:20Speaker 03

  And what's amazing about that is that is still what she's doing.

• 3:52:24Yasi Salek?

  Well, okay.

• 3:52:24Speaker 03

  With Confessions, she did it again with Confessions 2.

• 3:52:27Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 3:52:27Speaker 03

  This erotica to me is like the spiritual prequel to Confessions.

• 3:52:32Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Okay. So my giant galaxy brain like woo woo thing is like.

• 3:52:41Yasi Salek?

  She sort of like starts out, you know, doing this thing and then gets, like we said, there was like all this sort of like stars washed from her eyes from coming up against the control of men. So then she's like, okay, well, then I will embody control and masculinity because

• 3:53:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, with Dita.

• 3:53:02Yasi Salek?

  With Dita, with control, with, with

• 3:53:05Speaker 03

  Maverick.

• 3:53:05Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, this is all like masculine, hyper masculine. And then kind of realizing, actually, that didn't fulfill me either. And then you come back around to her major, one of her, one of her major peaks, which is pushing past both of those things into the divine feminine, which is actually spiritual, which is Ray of Light. And I think that's when she like surrendered the tropes of

• 3:53:30Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 3:53:31Yasi Salek?

  You know what I mean? And was able to sort of ascend to this other place, which is truly the divine feminine. And that's what you hear in Real Life, not to get ahead.

• 3:53:41Yasi Salek?

  Okay, we talk, I feel like we talked enough about the sex book.

• 3:53:43Speaker 03

  We did talk about the sex book.

• 3:53:44Yasi Salek?

  It sold out 750,000 copies, was banned, et cetera, everything you would think. Edited by Glenn O'Brien, we should mention.

• 3:53:52Speaker 03

  One thing that is just that in 2022, Yves Saint Laurent published a re-edition of the sex book through their publishing empire, Rive D'Or.

• 3:54:03Yasi Salek?

  Really?

• 3:54:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. And they did a whole exhibition at Art Basel, Miami Beach. They like built a gallery on the beach and they showed all of the Mizel photos.

• 3:54:10Yasi Salek?

  So cool.

• 3:54:11Speaker 03

  And she flew out Udo Kier for it. He came to it. She loved Udo. Their relationship was really cute. Um, yeah, they released 800 copies. So she still owns it.

• 3:54:25Yasi Salek?

  Good.

• 3:54:25Speaker 03

  Still loves it. I heard from a source that she still buys them off eBay when she sees them pop up because like she feels like she doesn't have enough of them in the archive.

• 3:54:33Yasi Salek?

  So good. It's, it's beautiful. And like,

• 3:54:37Yasi Salek?

  Joseph, if you haven't ever seen it, like, this was very difficult to produce. Like, she wanted this, like, metal cover, like. I can't remember who it was that was in an interview with her, was like, it was really annoying to read it.

• 3:54:50Yasi Salek?

  People lost their goddamn minds.

• 3:54:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:54:54Yasi Salek?

  About the sex book. That infamous interview in 60 Minutes Australia with Richard Carlton, you've seen that, right? The clip?

• 3:55:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:55:01Yasi Salek?

  Where he's like, "I just think these images are so horrible." And he's specifically talking about the one where she's like astride the mirror masturbating.

• 3:55:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:55:09Yasi Salek?

  And she has such a good response to it, where she's like, "I think people's reactions to specific situations in the book are much more a reflection of that person than me." I mean, you were scared of that picture, what does that mean? Are you frightened of a woman that can turn herself on? Are you frightened of a woman who is not afraid to look at her genitals in the mirror? And he's like, "A little bit, yes."

• 3:55:27Speaker 03

  Getting Freudian up in here.

• 3:55:29Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:55:30Speaker 03

  Also during this whole period, she did another shoot with Mizel for Vanity Fair, which is the one where she's like in the pool toy. In the pool with the pigtails.

• 3:55:41Yasi Salek?

  Oh, it's so good.

• 3:55:42Speaker 03

  And stuffed animals in the playground. She's playing with like little girl.

• 3:55:46Yasi Salek?

  She's Dear Jesse.

• 3:55:46Speaker 03

  Slutty little girl.

• 3:55:47Yasi Salek?

  Dear Jesse.

• 3:55:49Speaker 03

  Tits out, ass out, dressed like a perverted adult toddler. She also did Interview Magazine with her Brits in 93, tail end of all of this.

• 3:55:59Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:55:59Speaker 03

  And then did Vogue by Mizel, styled by Grace Cottington, which was sort of like a hippie vibe randomly.

• 3:56:05Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Maybe she, maybe at that point she was kind of trying to like, eh, you know? Well, she did, I mean, she lost a big chunk of audience with this. Like, I think that is also something people need to, like, remember who didn't live in real time. I mean, including myself, obviously, I was a child, but like, she was America's sweetheart pop star. Even though she was like pushing buttons with Like a Prayer and with, you know, increasingly pushing buttons, but with Like a Prayer, she was an international sensation pop star on the level of Michael Jackson. With Veronica, she lost a big. Chunk of market share. Those people did not come with her. They were like, we don't, I don't know about that.

• 3:56:45Speaker 03

  Right. It's like poking at religion is one thing because you may offend some people from that religion. At worst, you offend all of them, which she didn't. I don't think. But then, you know, explicit sexual imagery, you're like basically being like adults only. This is not for kids. People are freaking out. They don't want their kids seeing it. Kids are obsessed with Madonna.

• 3:57:07Yasi Salek?

  It spiraled out of control because the idea of it was far worse than the execution of it. Because it was, nobody saw it. Seven hundred and fifty thousand people saw it, but like it wasn't, you couldn't just go on the internet and look at it. So I think even the way I misremembered it being like so hardcore porn, it's not, I think that got out of hand, you know?

• 3:57:25Speaker 03

  But some of that was also the marketing, which like was funny and cool, but it's like it backfired a little. Like putting it in the Mylar bag and having it say adults only, like that's what like Hustler magazine looked like when you went to buy it at the store, which is why they did it. It was like kind of, they were being cheeky about it.

• 3:57:42Yasi Salek?

  What she said was like, no one got the humor. Like I, I was trying to be, like I was trying to poke fun at everyone's prejudice about other people's sexuality. No one got it. And then more crucially, she told Charlie Rose in 1999 that after that, the backlash, I lost confidence in humanity. I thought that people were being unbelievably cruel to me for no reason. And when I lost confidence in not being able to feel like there was a certain level of behavior that I could depend on in other people, a certain decency, when I lost confidence in that, I began to lose confidence in myself.

• 3:58:15Speaker 03

  Right. And like, you know, according to testimony, this was like sort of a low period for her that affected her a lot, how this was received.

• 3:58:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. And then to add insult to injury, like you're already like in the riptide and then someone's like, hold your shoulders down. Body of evidence comes out. January 7th.

• 3:58:31Speaker 03

  I'm like, I don't see how that can be anything but incredible because I love that movie.

• 3:58:35Yasi Salek?

  Same, but the reviews were brutal.

• 3:58:38Speaker 03

  But that was, this is something that my friends and I talk about with pop stars in general. It was her time to be hated.

• 3:58:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, totally.

• 3:58:46Speaker 03

  Everyone has their time to be hated. It happened with Lady Gaga during Art Pop. It's like, there's a moment where it's like you've been riding too high for too long.

• 3:58:53Yasi Salek?

  We gotta take you down a peg.

• 3:58:54Speaker 03

  And we are gonna knock you off your pedestal and drag you into the dirt.

• 3:58:57Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, and I feel kinda bad because I think Body of Evidence suffered from that part of her because it's actually a totally great movie.

• 3:59:04Speaker 03

  I've been watching a lot of erotic thrillers from like the 80s and early 90s and like, I'm not trying to shade anybody, but it's like, it's directed so much better than like Jagged Edge.

• 3:59:13Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, or like Sliver, or like, I'm trying to think what's, okay, people, everyone loves Basic Instinct. I didn't find it that much, like, I didn't find it, I don't even find Basic Instinct that much more elevated than this. And they're both very enjoyable, you know?

• 3:59:28Speaker 03

  They're both really well-directed.

• 3:59:29Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:59:29Speaker 03

  Like, Uli Adel is like an incredible director. He directed Christian F.

• 3:59:33Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 3:59:33Speaker 03

  Like, he was part of this like German new wave of directors who were sort of shooting in this like very visceral, gritty style, but still with like kind of high style composition.

• 3:59:45Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I think it's such a, and it's such a great juxtaposition of that on top of a sort of dum-dum script. You know, like, it is a little like, you know, blue notes a few in the script, but that's what makes it great.

• 3:59:57Speaker 03

  Oh my god, whatever. It's like, it really is just like it came out immediately a year after Basic Instinct.

• 4:00:02Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:00:03Speaker 03

  And so there's a bit of like, oh, she wanted to do what Sharon's, and Basic Instinct was like a movie that was not expected to be as big of a hit as it was. And the film is lurid and over the top at times, but like-

• 4:00:14Yasi Salek?

  But it's fun.

• 4:00:15Speaker 03

  Her performance is like incredibly calibrated. She's like enigmatic and naturalistic. I think if Glenn Close gave the same performance, it would have gotten good reviews. But everyone wanted to hate her at that time. She had too much. She seized the culture. She was hot. She had all the hottest men. She was dominating the pop charts.

• 4:00:31Yasi Salek?

  I think it just also didn't help obviously that she was being castigated for being too sexual and then her most explicitly sexual film performance comes out at the same time. It's just like- People were like, oh, enough with you.

• 4:00:42Speaker 03

  But it was like audacious and it was a cool choice. Everyone who she worked with in that movie, it was like fab that it was Willem Dafoe.

• 4:00:49Yasi Salek?

  I loved it.

• 4:00:49Speaker 03

  And Joe Mantegna and like fucking Frank Langella and.

• 4:00:54Yasi Salek?

  Julianne Moore.

• 4:00:55Speaker 03

  Full frontal pussy in the parking garage.

• 4:00:57Yasi Salek?

  It's a really hot movie.

• 4:00:59Speaker 03

  Like Sharon Stone uncrossed her legs so that Madonna could go spread eagle on the hood of that.

• 4:01:05Yasi Salek?

  Okay, once again, you don't see lip, but yes.

• 4:01:09Yasi Salek?

  You don't see a cervix. Okay.

• 4:01:11Speaker 03

  And she, the best line in it where she's like, don't look so hurt, Alan. I fucked you. I fucked Andrew. I fucked Frank. That's what I do. I fuck. And I made eight million dollars from it.

• 4:01:24Yasi Salek?

  Eight million dollars. She lives on a houseboat. It's randomly filmed in Portland. Nobody like that has ever lived in Portland.

• 4:01:30Speaker 03

  What did she do to you, Frank? What are those marks on your chest? Are those bites? Julianne Moore. Incredible. She slaps her in the bathroom.

• 4:01:39Yasi Salek?

  It's a great movie.

• 4:01:40Speaker 03

  You guys reconsider body of evidence.

• 4:01:43Yasi Salek?

  Okay, so she goes on, still regardless of having a hard time in the press, she goes on Saturday Night Live and does Bad Girl and Fever. The host is Harvey Keitel. This is just a moment for me. She's on the 1,000th episode of the Arsenio Hall Show and sings Fever and also performs The Lady is a Tramp alongside Anthony Kiedis, where they're wearing matching skirts, stockings, leather vests and cat ear caps. And it is burned into my brain, this image.

• 4:02:08Speaker 03

  Got it.

• 4:02:08Yasi Salek?

  It's really important.

• 4:02:09Speaker 03

  Okay, missed that one somehow.

• 4:02:11Yasi Salek?

  My personal canon of intersecting interests. Erotica, okay, we said it largely slept on. People do not, it doesn't get the attention that it should because of the book. Um, and Madonna's in a bad place.

• 4:02:27Yasi Salek?

  So, and with this vibe, we go into the girly show tour.

• 4:02:30Speaker 03

  Incredible, legendary.

• 4:02:32Yasi Salek?

  We have, where's the book?

• 4:02:33Speaker 03

  Beautifully designed tour.

• 4:02:34Yasi Salek?

  I don't remember her ever having bangs, but yeah, there she is. The title came from Edward Hopper painting of a naked woman on stage at a burlesque house. Christopher is now made the tour director as well as art director, moving on up. They track down Gene Kelly, 81 years old, to help with choreography.

• 4:02:50Speaker 03

  You would if you could.

• 4:02:51Yasi Salek?

  Famously fired him, I believe.

• 4:02:53Speaker 03

  He deserved it.

• 4:02:55Yasi Salek?

  Um.

• 4:02:56Speaker 03

  Retire bitch.

• 4:02:57Yasi Salek?

  They cast the female dancers by posting flyers at lesbian bars in Manhattan.

• 4:03:02Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 4:03:03Yasi Salek?

  And Carlton Woolborn came back, Nikki Harris and Donald DeLorey are back. Jeff Hornacek, who had choreographed the Who's That Girl Tour, came as stage director. Now the costumes are.

• 4:03:13Speaker 03

  Costumes by Dolce and Gabbana, honey.

• 4:03:16Yasi Salek?

  Who were like fairly, I don't want to say new, but weren't like.

• 4:03:20Speaker 03

  It was peak 90s Dolce and Gabbana.

• 4:03:24Yasi Salek?

  Just, oof. What about Carrie Ann Anaba being one of the dancers?

• 4:03:29Speaker 03

  I don't know who that is, but I'm happy for her.

• 4:03:33Speaker 03

  Is she dancing with the stars?

• 4:03:34Yasi Salek?

  That's right.

• 4:03:37Yasi Salek?

  That is correct. She came down in a thong, in a G-string on an aerial ballet. Here are the songs. Erotica, Fever, Vogue, Rain. There's an interlude where Gene Kelly's choreography actually came in. Eight dancers pouring with umbrellas. Rain, get it?

• 4:03:53Speaker 03

  A little bit of soft shoe, a little bit of a shuffle.

• 4:03:55Yasi Salek?

  Express Yourself. She did do that in the Afro, just wanted you to know. Why is it so hard? Justify my love. Marlene Dietrich's 1930 song Falling in Love Again. Bye bye baby.

• 4:04:06Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 4:04:07Yasi Salek?

  I'm going bananas.

• 4:04:08Speaker 03

  What am I to do?

• 4:04:12Yasi Salek?

  Fake ending with holiday. And then she comes back to stage to sing Everybody is a Star by Sly and the Family Stone into first single, Everybody. And then here's a little moment. She introduces the band, the singers and the dancers, then leaves and then. Perot, is that a clown?

• 4:04:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:04:29Yasi Salek?

  A little clown comes on stage. He was in the beginning inviting everyone, then comes back on stage. Goodbye, blowing kisses. And guess what? It's Madonna.

• 4:04:37Speaker 03

  It's Madonna.

• 4:04:37Yasi Salek?

  Rips off.

• 4:04:38Speaker 03

  Tears of a clown.

• 4:04:39Yasi Salek?

  It's me.

• 4:04:41Speaker 03

  Pollyachi bitch.

• 4:04:43Yasi Salek?

  Keith Cameron gave it a bad review. The only thing I want.

• 4:04:46Speaker 03

  Fuck her.

• 4:04:47Yasi Salek?

  I just want to mention one line that will blow everyone's mind.

• 4:04:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:04:50Yasi Salek?

  One hesitates to say that at 35, she's too old for this.

• 4:04:57Yasi Salek?

  Gun into my mouth. Well, and now I, I bring it up to point out that like, she pushed past everyone's expectations so that now someone like a Taylor Swift or whatever is 37 years old and not, no one even thinks for a second they're too old to be a pop star.

• 4:05:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:05:16Yasi Salek?

  Because Madonna did it, you know, she, she was like, no, and of course not.

• 4:05:21Speaker 03

  She hadn't, she's like, I haven't peaked yet.

• 4:05:23Yasi Salek?

  Exactly.

• 4:05:24Speaker 03

  We're still waiting.

• 4:05:25Yasi Salek?

  Now your favorite movie Dangerous Game comes out while she's on tour, directed by the, the great Abel Ferrara.

• 4:05:31Speaker 03

  Really sick.

• 4:05:32Yasi Salek?

  It's really complex and I will say for like, someone without the like great filmic mind of Patrick Sander, you might need to like, be open minded and also like, for me, I had to like marinate afterwards for like an hour and like really use my big brain and think about what I had seen. Because I think what's so genius about what Abel Ferrara does is that the, the surface layer, if you just buy into the surface layer, you will be outraged, you know? You will be like, this is misogynistic or whatever. And then you kind of back up and realize that actually it's a meta commentary about misogyny, about Hollywood, like it's so brilliant, the way it's done. Anyway, sorry, I'll save it for the big pick, but.

• 4:06:16Speaker 03

  It's the coolest movie she ever did.

• 4:06:18Yasi Salek?

  It's really cool.

• 4:06:18Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 4:06:19Yasi Salek?

  It's, it's avant garde. It really is avant garde.

• 4:06:21Speaker 03

  It's the most risky.

• 4:06:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:23Speaker 03

  High art, independent.

• 4:06:25Yasi Salek?

  She's great in it.

• 4:06:26Speaker 03

  Her performance in it, okay.

• 4:06:28Yasi Salek?

  Harvey Keitel's hair is absolutely psychotic.

• 4:06:30Speaker 03

  Maverick produced it.

• 4:06:31Yasi Salek?

  Yes.

• 4:06:31Speaker 03

  Which is fucking sick. But she's, you know, and maybe she was going for kind of like a gritty art house credibility, which is, the timing of it is so interesting to me, but it, it's like, to me, it's just such an unexpected move after all of the sort of movies that she was doing.

• 4:06:48Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:06:49Speaker 03

  And it's like, Lady Gaga, we're waiting. Where's your cool movie?

• 4:06:52Yasi Salek?

  It is kind of part and parcel with Body of Evidence, though. Even the Body of Evidence is a totally different kind of movie. It feels at least like you're going further in a direction and not like back towards like blockbuster or like family friendly comedy like A League of Their Own, you know, like she's, she's going like more depraved in a way because it's so-

• 4:07:13Speaker 03

  More film festival.

• 4:07:14Yasi Salek?

  More illegible for the general population.

• 4:07:17Speaker 03

  Totally illegible. The tone, like the tone and the language of the movie is so scorched. That like, actually like my issue with the movie, if anything, is that I feel like it could have been funnier.

• 4:07:26Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, there's not one, there, but also-

• 4:07:29Speaker 03

  There are things that are inadvertently funny in it.

• 4:07:31Yasi Salek?

  But also I don't thi- I think that's like, I like even realized later that I was like, oh, um, what's the guy's name?

• 4:07:36Speaker 03

  Joe Russo?

• 4:07:37Yasi Salek?

  Joe Russo. I'm like, oh, his like ham-fisted, over-the-top performance is like on purpose to be-

• 4:07:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:07:45Yasi Salek?

  skewering that kind of male ego.

• 4:07:48Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 4:07:48Yasi Salek?

  It's so genius. But Harvey Keitel's hair needs to be changed.

• 4:07:50Speaker 03

  But all, yeah, I mean, the hair is so, but it's so like, I'm this greasy, like kind of shitty guy.

• 4:07:56Yasi Salek?

  Well, the fact that it's fucking Abel Ferrara's real wife that plays his wife.

• 4:08:02Speaker 03

  But there's like-

• 4:08:02Yasi Salek?

  His mind.

• 4:08:03Speaker 03

  It has this like kind of absurd, like aesthetic romance to it to me, like where the writing is so like corrosively nihilistic. And then it's like, coupled with Madonna's kind of like Warholian glamorous actress performance.

• 4:08:21Yasi Salek?

  Right. Where she is kind of playing herself in one part of it, you know?

• 4:08:25Speaker 03

  It's like, it's a little bit camp, but it, more than that, it just feels so like modern to me.

• 4:08:31Yasi Salek?

  It's like almost not funny enough to be camp.

• 4:08:32Speaker 03

  And it's not bad. The acting is like actually sensational. And what she does in it is like, she gives her most naturalistic performance that I think she ever gave in a movie. It feels so real and lived in. But then she's playing an actress and we're seeing that actress's performance on top of it. So there's like layers to how heightened she's being or not, or how frustrated she is.

• 4:08:53Yasi Salek?

  She's incredible in it.

• 4:08:54Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, it's the self-reflexive meta referential kind of magic trick of an acting job because she's like weirdly-

• 4:09:04Speaker 03

  She's playing an actress who's trying to be a serious actress, which is like also what she was doing.

• 4:09:08Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, but, but that's the great part. We was like, you commercial bitch, you commercial piece of shit. I'm sorry. Okay, we have to move on.

• 4:09:15Speaker 03

  She should be proud of this movie is what I'm saying. And it looks fucking sick. It looks like a fashion campaign would look now because it's like.

• 4:09:21Yasi Salek?

  Incredible. There is one part where I'm like, oh, the wig is not wigging here. But, okay.

• 4:09:26Speaker 03

  But that's cool.

• 4:09:27Yasi Salek?

  It's time to gain back some audience, you guys. We've maybe.

• 4:09:31Speaker 03

  She went over the edge.

• 4:09:32Yasi Salek?

  She's, she's reeling it back in a little bit. I'm sure someone was in her ear being like, okay.

• 4:09:38Speaker 03

  Okay, you've been in your Chloe 70 bag.

• 4:09:40Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, let's soften it up, babe. Let's, so.

• 4:09:43Speaker 03

  Back to being America's sweetheart, please.

• 4:09:44Yasi Salek?

  That's why we get the I'll Remember single. For the film with honors. Honestly, a fucking forgotten classic. It's a wonderful movie. I loved that movie.

• 4:09:52Speaker 03

  I love that song.

• 4:09:53Yasi Salek?

  Directed by Alec, cause she, she in.

• 4:09:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:09:56Yasi Salek?

  Um, it's wonderful. It is very like, I'm sorry, I love a corny ballad and it's a, it's a peak Madonna corny ballad. There's a great William Orbit remix.

• 4:10:05Speaker 03

  I don't think it's corny.

• 4:10:07Yasi Salek?

  Thank you.

• 4:10:07Speaker 03

  I think it's so beautiful that it surpasses corny.

• 4:10:18Yasi Salek?

  The video, she is luminous.

• 4:10:20Speaker 03

  Stunning, great eyebrows.

• 4:10:22Yasi Salek?

  Great eyebrows, good hair, great necklace.

• 4:10:24Speaker 03

  I didn't lock into the, the, uh, the crew of this video. I don't know who did it, but go off.

• 4:10:31Yasi Salek?

  After that, unfortunately, she does erode a bit of the goodwill she renegotiated with. I'll Remember by appearing on David Letterman and saying the word fuck 14 times. The most censored, uh, episode in American network television talk show history. She was hanging out with Tupac at this time and she did tell Howard Stern that she had been with him in the hours before the taping and he quote, got her all riled up about life in general. So when I went on the show, I was feeling very gangster.

• 4:11:04Speaker 03

  I know exactly what she's talking about.

• 4:11:07Yasi Salek?

  And she smoked a joint, so she was uninhibited. Um, she also said that basically backstage, they had been like, you should like do this, you should push him or whatever. So she thought she was kind of playing with a bit, whatever happened. There is an incredible Esquire profile by Norman Mailer. If you guys don't know Norman Mailer, two-time Pulitzer winning, uh, writer, journalism and film, journalist and filmmaker. He was like. At that point, an elder intellectual god, you know?

• 4:11:38Speaker 03

  Like Burroughs or something. He was like, and they were shot by Wayne Mazer and he's in the photos.

• 4:11:43Yasi Salek?

  Yes, because he's so, and he, you know, he was such a famous person in his own right. And he really gets her. Like, like it's,

• 4:11:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:11:51Yasi Salek?

  Well, I'll drop a link maybe in the show notes to the,

• 4:11:54Speaker 03

  Real, recognize real.

• 4:11:56Yasi Salek?

  Norm Mailer's like, so you're talking for all women? And Madonna says, no, I'm not talking for all women. I've been accused for years and years, especially at the beginning of my career, of setting the women's movement back because I was being sexual in a traditional way with my corsets and push-up bras and garter belts. And feminists were beating the fuck out of me. What are you doing? You're sending out all the wrong messages to young girls. They should be using their heads, not their tits and their asses. My whole thing is that use all you have. All you have, your sexuality, your femininity, your any testosterone you have inside of you, your intellect. Use whatever you have and use bits and pieces wherever it's good. I love that.

• 4:12:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:12:32Yasi Salek?

  That's my feminism.

• 4:12:33Speaker 03

  Whole hog.

• 4:12:34Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, that is my feminism. And then the ending is really sweet where he just says, I want to leave you with an idea. I've come to the conclusion that you're a great artist. And she goes, okay. And he goes, that's going to be the theme of this piece that we have among us. What we have among us is our greatest living female artist.

• 4:12:51Speaker 03

  Boom.

• 4:12:52Yasi Salek?

  Norman Mailer, babe. Afterwards, she's,

• 4:12:55Speaker 03

  Save it for the obit.

• 4:12:56Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. She's asked to present an award at the VMAs and savagely she hits up David Letterman and says, why don't you come on with me? And they do. I fucking hate this so much.

• 4:13:06Speaker 03

  Sexually harassed by Steven Tyler.

• 4:13:08Yasi Salek?

  Sexually harassed by fucking Steven Tyler. So they present an award, which Aerosmith wins. And Steven Tyler gets up there and is like, Madonna, I saw your book. And then he goes, Joe, why do you think Madonna uses these two fingers to masturbate? And Joe Perry goes, why? And Steven Tyler goes, because they're mine. But then don't worry, Madonna comes to the mic and goes, if it was your fingers, it's not masturbation. And then he's like, well, you know, what is it then? And she goes, it's sexual abuse.

• 4:13:38Speaker 03

  Boom.

• 4:13:39Yasi Salek?

  And then anyways, that month she's jogging in Central Park and she meets a 30-year-old Cuban-American man named Carlos Leon. And they start dating. First single of the next album comes out now.

• 4:13:53Yasi Salek?

  Secret, September 20th, 1994, written by Madonna, Dallas Austin, and Shep Pettibone. What a tune.

• 4:14:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, one of my faves.

• 4:14:03Yasi Salek?

  Something's coming over. Would you like me to read you the audio message that preceded the online release of this song on AOL?

• 4:14:12Speaker 03

  Play it because it's really.

• 4:14:14Yasi Salek?

  It's really incredible.

• 4:14:15Speaker 03

  Production as part of it.

• 4:14:16Yasi Salek?

  Hello, all you cyberheads.

• 4:14:18Speaker 06

  Hello, all you cyberheads. Welcome to the 90s version of intimacy. You can hear me, you can even see me, but you can't touch me.

• 4:14:28Yasi Salek?

  It's wonderful. Also, very, I think 10% of all people in America were online at that point, so.

• 4:14:33Speaker 03

  I already was.

• 4:14:34Yasi Salek?

  Same. I was in those AOL chatrooms, babe, pretending to be older. This was her 35th consecutive top 10 single. It's an amazing song. The idea to go work with Dallas Austin was so genius. At that time, he had been, he had done the TLC album, the first TLC album, right? And he was part of this like incredible sound coming out of Atlanta.

• 4:14:56Speaker 03

  The video's fine. It's like iconic to me.

• 4:14:59Yasi Salek?

  Right. Directed by Melody McDaniel, shows Madonna as a nightclub singer in Harlem.

• 4:15:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, wearing a coat, looking over her shoulder.

• 4:15:07Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:15:17Yasi Salek?

  The album comes out on October 25th, 1994. What say you about the cover?

• 4:15:24Speaker 03

  Listen.

• 4:15:25Yasi Salek?

  Is it the nose ring?

• 4:15:27Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:15:27Yasi Salek?

  I like the nose ring.

• 4:15:28Speaker 03

  I mean, I love this record, so I just associate the cover with the record. I do like the art direction. I always liked the type that.

• 4:15:36Yasi Salek?

  I like the color story. I think it's very nice. The pink and green and blue is very nice.

• 4:15:40Speaker 03

  What happened is originally Paolo Reversi had shot the cover and the label next to those photos, because they were too quote unquote artsy, meaning dark.

• 4:15:50Yasi Salek?

  Right. I think, yeah, I remember reading that they said that, like, it doesn't look like you. We want it, we want it to look like you.

• 4:15:55Speaker 03

  They wanted a bright, colorful, poppy.

• 4:15:57Yasi Salek?

  Well, we're trying to regain audience. We're trying to remind people that this is Madonna.

• 4:16:00Speaker 03

  So is it my favorite cover or no?

• 4:16:02Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 4:16:02Speaker 03

  Shot by Patrick DeMarshallier.

• 4:16:04Yasi Salek?

  I really have it burned in my brain, though, of like, of the albums of 1994. Like, to me, it was like, it was like part and parcel with my alternative music. Like, it was also alternative music. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it's the nose ring.

• 4:16:18Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 4:16:19Yasi Salek?

  So Babyface works on this album. She had become a big fan of the song "When Can I See You." And he's a master of lush ballads, so he shows up. Dallas Austin, who we mentioned, is 23 years old and has worked with TLC.

• 4:16:32Speaker 03

  TLC, baby.

• 4:16:34Yasi Salek?

  And then Nelly Hooper, who famously worked, was part of Massive Attack.

• 4:16:39Speaker 03

  Massive Attack.

• 4:16:40Yasi Salek?

  And worked with Soul to Soul. He actually left, working on the Massive Attack album Protection, to come work with Madonna. But he, I think also, maybe more importantly to this case, had produced "Nothing Compares to You," the Sinead O'Connor song, and, of course, the first Bjork album.

• 4:16:56Speaker 03

  Cool choice. Love it.

• 4:16:58Yasi Salek?

  Love it. Great choices. She's really good at choosing collaborators. Okay, here's the themes of this album. She's big mad. She's big mad.

• 4:17:04Speaker 03

  What a juvie.

• 4:17:05Yasi Salek?

  Yes, she's big mad because you guys fucking focused on her sex life and didn't let her be an artist and didn't appreciate her gorgeous work of art.

• 4:17:14Speaker 03

  Exactly. You reduced it to something lurid, sensational.

• 4:17:18Yasi Salek?

  I do think another theme of this album, and we'll get into it when we talk about it, besides the anger, is like loneliness and like feeling alienated, which I guess is like, goes hand in hand, right? But...

• 4:17:29Speaker 03

  Had she, she had had a falling out with Sandra Bernhard at this point?

• 4:17:32Yasi Salek?

  I think so. I think some, may, I don't remember the exact timing, it may...

• 4:17:36Speaker 03

  She got angry at him in the divorce.

• 4:17:38Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. Okay, this first song is "Survival." "Mission Statement." Yeah, it's really good, written by Madonna and Dallas Austin, but produced by Nelly Hooper. It's a gorgeous song. It's a perfect album opener. We talked about "Secret" already. "Bedtime Stories" is interesting because it's also a vibes album.

• 4:17:56Speaker 03

  It is, but it's, there's something more melodic about it than erotica. Like, it felt like an album that had more hits, like on MTV and VH1 at the time.

• 4:18:07Yasi Salek?

  It is less cold. It's much warmer. It's much more like, you luxuriate in a different way.

• 4:18:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:18:15Yasi Salek?

  I'd rather be...

• 4:18:15Speaker 03

  It was like warmer tones.

• 4:18:17Yasi Salek?

  Exactly. Yeah, because it's R and B.

• 4:18:19Speaker 03

  Which probably came from Dallas and Babyface and stuff like that.

• 4:18:22Yasi Salek?

  It's like beautiful R and B tunes. I'd Rather Be Your Lover, featuring Michelle Ndege Ochello, who at the time of live was signed to Maverick. Shep Pettybone is not credited in the album booklet, but he actually received credit for this song because it came from one of the demos they made together. Tupac Shakur originally did the part of Michelle Ndege Ochello, but allegedly.

• 4:18:40Speaker 03

  They broke up.

• 4:18:41Yasi Salek?

  Well, also, he got involved in that sexual assault case and she was like, "Nope, we're reclaiming our audience." "We are rehabilitating our image."

• 4:18:54Speaker 03

  The inner publicist jumped out.

• 4:18:56Yasi Salek?

  I wonder if it was ever laid down because I would think it would have leaked by now, but no one's ever heard it. Don't Stop, Madonna, Dallas Austin and Colin Wolf, who plays bass on the song. And by the way, I had worked with NWA.

• 4:19:09Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 4:19:11Yasi Salek?

  It's a good song. Inside of Me, Inside of Me is really pretty.

• 4:19:16Speaker 03

  I love every song on this record. Inside of Me is so pretty.

• 4:19:19Yasi Salek?

  It has a sample of.

• 4:19:20Speaker 03

  A really underrated.

• 4:19:22Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 4:19:23Speaker 03

  The Aaliyah sample.

• 4:19:25Yasi Salek?

  Nelly Hooper having the writing credit, I think, makes a lot of sense with Dave Hall and Madonna. Madonna wrote all these songs. Yeah, the back and forth Aaliyah sample.

• 4:19:42Yasi Salek?

  Obviously, Human Nature, I think, is the second standout on here.

• 4:19:47Speaker 03

  That was a big deal at the time.

• 4:19:49Yasi Salek?

  The video, but the song is built off a sample from Main Source. You know what? I am going to find a way to work The Large Professor into the Madonna episode. Actually, Large Professor is not part of this because he had already left Main Source. But this is from the second Main Source album, The Song Is What You Need. It's really crazy that Main Source has writing credits.

• 4:20:11Speaker 03

  That sample is so, like, hits like crack when you hear it.

• 4:20:16Yasi Salek?

  It's so good.

• 4:20:16Speaker 03

  It's crazy. Maybe one of the most successful samples ever in pop music.

• 4:20:22Yasi Salek?

  Couldn't agree more.

• 4:20:23Speaker 03

  It's really.

• 4:20:25Yasi Salek?

  It's a pretty.

• 4:20:26Speaker 03

  It's on a pretty high level.

• 4:20:27Yasi Salek?

  It's a pretty obvious song.

• 4:20:28Speaker 03

  It's like Mariah Carey using Tom Tom Club.

• 4:20:31Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 4:20:31Speaker 03

  Of like, you just instantly get hooked in.

• 4:20:34Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:20:43Yasi Salek?

  Nobody on earth listened to that second main source album, so I don't know how they found that sample, but.

• 4:20:48Speaker 03

  They like to scour and find something a little unexpected sometimes.

• 4:20:52Yasi Salek?

  This is just incredible. It's obviously her being like, it's literal. I'm not sorry.

• 4:21:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:21:00Yasi Salek?

  You know, I'm not your bitch. Don't hang your shit on me.

• 4:21:03Speaker 03

  But she's being very campy and over the top about it.

• 4:21:05Yasi Salek?

  So great.

• 4:21:05Speaker 03

  Like, just as an example, like, being, and obviously I was a little older at this point, but, and my parents had been, had watched me watching Madonna and seen all her provocations up until that point.

• 4:21:18Yasi Salek?

  They'd also heard you say that you're not interested in mediocrity. They had your number.

• 4:21:21Speaker 03

  And so by the time this came out, they were like done trying to be like, that's too risque. Don't watch that. And even though it's such like a fetishy music video.

• 4:21:32Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, but it's.

• 4:21:33Speaker 03

  It's like, there was something that was so campy and like fun about it, that it was like not offensive.

• 4:21:39Yasi Salek?

  I think it even proves her own point of being like, see, I was being funny. This is funny, you know?

• 4:21:44Speaker 03

  It was sort of like, oh, there she goes again.

• 4:21:46Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:21:46Speaker 03

  That was the attitude toward the video. Love the video.

• 4:21:50Yasi Salek?

  Love the, dancing in the glass boxes.

• 4:21:53Speaker 03

  Incredibly shot. Again, Mondino.

• 4:21:56Yasi Salek?

  Would it sound better if I were a man? That's me to the mean comments on the Band's Line, uh, episodes about my vocal fry.

• 4:22:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. What about my vocal fry, you guys?

• 4:22:06Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:22:07Speaker 03

  Does it sound better?

• 4:22:09Yasi Salek?

  If I were Patrick Samberg? Would it sound better if I was a gay man?

• 4:22:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. If it was, what's his name? Chris Ryan. Chris Ryan vocal fry. Would you like that? Would you like that?

• 4:22:18Yasi Salek?

  Zero vocal fry.

• 4:22:21Yasi Salek?

  The remixes are amazing. We just do not have the time or wherewithal to get into all the remixes, but.

• 4:22:26Speaker 03

  This whole episode, we've kind of bypassed like 10,000 remixes. They're just always there, some lurking, bubbling up.

• 4:22:32Yasi Salek?

  What's that new, like that, like Guido remix of this song? It's like the club, the real club remix. So fucking good. Um, yeah. The video is, we talked gorgeous. Um, it was, I will say it's important to mention, the video was inspired by bondage illustrations by this artist called Eric Stanton, who had only ever had one show in his lifetime in 1984 at Dance at Rio. So still bringing back her like cultural roots and it's choreographed by a 23 year old named Jamie King.

• 4:23:01Speaker 03

  I also want to say

• 4:23:03Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:23:03Speaker 03

  quickly, or at some point, that an integral part of Madonna's legacy is that she holds the record for the most number ones by any artist on any single Billboard chart, which is that she's had 50 number one songs on the electronic dance chart.

• 4:23:22Yasi Salek?

  Oh.

• 4:23:23Speaker 03

  And she's the only artist to have a number one on any chart like that in five separate decades. And so throughout her work, dance is obviously very important to her, but I do think it's a consideration with all of her records

• 4:23:39Yasi Salek?

  Of course.

• 4:23:39Speaker 03

  of like which ones topping the dance chart.

• 4:23:41Yasi Salek?

  Totally, totally.

• 4:23:43Speaker 03

  Because she needs that every time, and she gets it every time.

• 4:23:46Yasi Salek?

  Well, it's, it's a huge part of who she is as an artist. Um, all right, Forbidden Love, great song.

• 4:23:52Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:23:53Yasi Salek?

  Love Tried to Welcome Me, great song. Title lifted, uh, title and chorus are lifted from Love Three, a poem by the Anglican priest George Herbert.

• 4:24:03Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 4:24:04Yasi Salek?

  Of course.

• 4:24:05Speaker 03

  She brings it every rule, honey.

• 4:24:08Yasi Salek?

  Sorry.

• 4:24:09Speaker 03

  Anglican priests, bitch.

• 4:24:11Yasi Salek?

  She's, she's reading widely and broadly, babe.

• 4:24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:24:14Yasi Salek?

  Um, Sanctuary, I just need to point out

• 4:24:15Speaker 03

  Religious leader.

• 4:24:16Yasi Salek?

  Something I'm obsessed with. This song has writing credits from Madonna and Dallas Austin, also for Anne Previn and Scott Cutler, who wrote the song Torn.

• 4:24:25Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 4:24:26Yasi Salek?

  I'm all out of faith.

• 4:24:27Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 4:24:28Yasi Salek?

  This is how I feel. This samples Herbie Hancock, Watermelon Man, and he uses lines from the poem Voices by Walt Whitman, uh, from Leaves of Grass, heard of it? And then there's Bedtime Story.

• 4:24:41Speaker 03

  Here we go.

• 4:24:43Yasi Salek?

  Written by a little lady called Bjork.

• 4:24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little hater.

• 4:24:47Yasi Salek?

  Well, here's the thing, Madonna's a fan. She's like, I want you to write something. And as the story goes, Nellie Hooper was like, she wants you to write something. She was like, um, I don't know. In her words, my instinct was to say no. I respect her, but it just didn't feel right. Um, but then she was like, okay. She wrote a song initially called Let's Get Unconscious, with the opening lyrics, "Today is the last day that I'm using words."

• 4:25:15Speaker 03

  So Bjork.

• 4:25:16Yasi Salek?

  "When I was offered to write a song for Madonna, I couldn't really picture me doing a song that would suit her. But on second thought, I decided to do this, to write the things I have always wanted to hear her say that she's never said." So that was Bjork's vision of what she wished Madonna would say.

• 4:25:38Yasi Salek?

  She later said she liked it and was happy she did it.

• 4:25:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:25:42Yasi Salek?

  Yeah. It's a great fucking song.

• 4:25:44Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 4:25:44Yasi Salek?

  And it has, you can't hear it and not hear Bjork's cadence. It's so the cadence of a Bjork.

• 4:25:50Speaker 03

  Does Bjork ever do the song? I feel like she should do it live or something.

• 4:25:54Yasi Salek?

  Am I not?

• 4:25:55Speaker 03

  It's so, it feels like it's part of her discography.

• 4:25:57Yasi Salek?

  Totally. Marius De Vries is a writer on this too, who's been working with them for a while. This is really funny. Bjork later confessed that Madonna actually got a few of the lyrics wrong. The original lyrics said, "learning logic and reason," and Madonna sings, "leaving logic and reason to the arms of unconsciousness."

• 4:26:16Speaker 03

  Honestly, which one's more appealing to you? A or B? Right about now, I'm thinking B.

• 4:26:25Yasi Salek?

  The original demo did become a Bjork song. Sweet intuition. It's a B-side of the Army of Me single. This is the one that I spent like a whole day listening to the remixes. There's so many good ones.

• 4:26:35Speaker 03

  It was, I think it was a stroke of genius for her to work with Bjork and to do this song.

• 4:26:40Yasi Salek?

  I think it's, for me, it's the high of this album. Like, human nature is like the most like grabs-you-accessible, but like, the like thing that takes me out of my body, like ascending, is this song. It's so cool.

• 4:26:53Speaker 03

  It's also partially the video.

• 4:26:55Yasi Salek?

  The video is...

• 4:26:56Speaker 03

  Which is a Mark Rhiomonic masterpiece.

• 4:26:59Yasi Salek?

  Just a real dolly-ass orgy.

• 4:27:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Which was like scary and cool and felt very alt at the time.

• 4:27:06Yasi Salek?

  Well, you know, because he wanted to do the bad, well, he was not wanting to. He was supposed to do the bad girl video. But I think he was just like not interested in the premise.

• 4:27:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:27:12Yasi Salek?

  And, but when he met with her about it, she was staying at this hotel in New York, and she had with her the painting she always takes with her everywhere, "My Birth" by Frida Kahlo. And he, he saw it and he was like, "Wow, it would be cool if you could do a video that kind of looked like that one day." And he kept that thought in his mind. And when he heard this song, he was like, "Boom, we're doing that." And so that's why it's so like, it's very that, right? It's Leonora Carrington. It's, it's like that kind of like fantastical. It's in the permanent collection of the MoMA.

• 4:27:42Speaker 03

  That part annoys me, I have to say, because it's so like art reference-y. It's like, of course, MoMA liked that one.

• 4:27:49Yasi Salek?

  And the music.

• 4:27:50Speaker 03

  All her music videos should be in the permanent collection of MoMA.

• 4:27:52Yasi Salek?

  Put them all in the Louvre.

• 4:27:54Speaker 03

  Vogue should be in the permanent collection of MoMA. You don't have to reference Dali and Frida Kahlo to get in the MoMA.

• 4:28:00Yasi Salek?

  That's true. You're right.

• 4:28:01Speaker 03

  Come on, stop being corny.

• 4:28:02Yasi Salek?

  Let's get unconscious.

• 4:28:04Speaker 03

  Me disagreeing about that being the high point of the album is because my high point is Take a Bow.

• 4:28:09Yasi Salek?

  It's, okay, well, Take a Bow is-

• 4:28:11Speaker 03

  I'm being a little bit of a queen with that one, but-

• 4:28:14Yasi Salek?

  That's a stone cold classic ballad.

• 4:28:17Speaker 03

  I also just think that video is so beautiful with the matador.

• 4:28:22Yasi Salek?

  You mean her audition tape for Evita?

• 4:28:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's so like-

• 4:28:25Yasi Salek?

  You mean her expensive, highly-produced audition tape for Evita?

• 4:28:28Speaker 03

  It's so gorgeous. It's like drenched in romance. It's like, being like 12 years old, or however old I was when this came out, I wanted to like die.

• 4:28:40Speaker 03

  I was ready to throw myself off a ledge.

• 4:28:42Yasi Salek?

  That's how I feel right now.

• 4:28:45Speaker 03

  Because of the high drama of Take a Bow.

• 4:28:49Yasi Salek?

  Yeah, it's stunning. Babyface motherfucking snapped on this one, and obviously Madonna, that's a co-writing song. There's, the queen of top line is fucking killing it here, but the orchestra, the full orchestra?

• 4:29:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, All the Worlds a Stage, her favorite thought, her favorite-

• 4:29:05Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:29:06Speaker 03

  Her favorite inspiration.

• 4:29:07Yasi Salek?

  Her favorite intrusive thought.

• 4:29:09Speaker 03

  She's been wanting to do that since the final shot of the Like a Prayer video.

• 4:29:12Yasi Salek?

  Totally.

• 4:29:20Yasi Salek?

  This song charted for 30 weeks.

• 4:29:22Speaker 03

  Because it's incredible.

• 4:29:24Yasi Salek?

  Tying with Borderline is Madonna's longest-running song on the Hot 100. Um, yeah, it's incredible. It's gorgeous. This is a slept-on album. I'll say it. I think erotica used to be the more slept-on album. Bedtime Stories is really slept-on. It's a really high point.

• 4:29:37Speaker 03

  I can't determine.

• 4:29:40Yasi Salek?

  I can't see it.

• 4:29:42Speaker 03

  Like, I'm like, no, but just because me and my friends go through phases of different Madonna albums all the time, like, like, uh, different summers.

• 4:29:50Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 4:29:50Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? When we go to, like, Spain, or Fire Island, or

• 4:29:54Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:29:55Speaker 03

  Mexico, or wherever we're fagging out at, at any given time, it's like, suddenly, we're doing only American life.

• 4:30:01Yasi Salek?

  Right.

• 4:30:02Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Or we're doing only bedtime stories, and we've gone through the phases of each of them. So I'm like, everyone loves this album, right? I'm like, is it just me?

• 4:30:11Yasi Salek?

  No, everyone should. Just to give, give respect, the video is directed by Michael Housman. And again, we

• 4:30:18Speaker 03

  Stunningly.

• 4:30:19Yasi Salek?

  I made a joke, but it, she did really want the part of Evita, and this was 100%

• 4:30:25Speaker 03

  And I think she wore brown, uh, contact lenses in the video.

• 4:30:28Yasi Salek?

  That I don't remember, did she? Because that's really, really pushing it.

• 4:30:31Speaker 03

  She did some, something like that. Maybe she didn't.

• 4:30:35Yasi Salek?

  A real-life bullfighter in it, Emilio Munoz. It's amazing. Uh, yeah, I think this, this album needs to be reevaluated. I don't know what it did in terms of regaining her audience. What do you think? Take a Bow was major.

• 4:30:48Speaker 03

  It felt massive at the time.

• 4:30:50Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:30:50Speaker 03

  It was inescapable.

• 4:30:51Yasi Salek?

  Take a Bow was like, don't speak no doubt levels of like, reaching my mother again, and being like, I love it. You know, like, moms around the world were like, I love Take a Bow.

• 4:31:00Speaker 03

  Don't speak. It was also like, at this period of time in the 90s, was like, kind of the rise of VH1.

• 4:31:06Yasi Salek?

  Oh, yeah.

• 4:31:07Speaker 03

  There had been MTV, and then it kind of split off.

• 4:31:10Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:31:11Speaker 03

  There was MTV and there was VH1, and VH1 was playing more like, adult contemporary videos.

• 4:31:15Yasi Salek?

  And they would play Take a Bow all the time.

• 4:31:17Speaker 03

  We were like, about to tumble toward the Lilith Fair. You know what I'm saying?

• 4:31:23Yasi Salek?

  I do know what you're saying.

• 4:31:24Speaker 03

  Sean Colvin, Poli Cole.

• 4:31:27Yasi Salek?

  Oh, you mean Sonny? She came home?

• 4:31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:31:29Yasi Salek?

  With a list of names?

• 4:31:31Speaker 03

  The Cowboys were gone, we don't know where they went.

• 4:31:33Yasi Salek?

  We don't know where they went.

• 4:31:34Speaker 03

  Jewel was gonna save our souls, Sheryl Crow was nipping at Madonna's heels.

• 4:31:39Yasi Salek?

  All she wanted to do was have some fun.

• 4:31:40Speaker 03

  But there was something that happened when VH1 became part of the cable package on everyone's television. Which was that this show called Pop Up Video came out and I don't know what year that was.

• 4:31:50Yasi Salek?

  Why would you do this at out?

• 4:31:52Speaker 03

  I know, I'm so sorry.

• 4:31:52Yasi Salek?

  We are literally five and a half hours in and I'm trying to wrap this shit up and then you fucking bring pop up video in as if I'm not, don't want to talk about it?

• 4:32:00Speaker 03

  I know, but like, okay, just quickly, pop up video started playing all the time, like the Like a Prayer video. Because like videos that had like controversy or stories behind them made good pop ups. And so like people were reliving.

• 4:32:15Yasi Salek?

  Spiritual descended in pop up video.

• 4:32:17Speaker 03

  True.

• 4:32:18Yasi Salek?

  We're in the lineage.

• 4:32:19Speaker 03

  People were sort of like, this was like a moment in time where people started reevaluating her earlier work.

• 4:32:25Yasi Salek?

  Yeah.

• 4:32:25Speaker 03

  So there was like a new appreciation. I don't even know if that was something that she planned or the label planned, but it was, it worked. The reappraisal happened, started happening.

• 4:32:35Yasi Salek?

  Okay. Well.

• 4:32:37Speaker 03

  Take a bow, the show is over.

• 4:32:38Yasi Salek?

  Take a bow, the show is fucking over. Please join us next week. We will be through the Celsius over the, we're, I'm cracked out, so I'll never sleep again. Come back next week where we will be kicking off with Madonna's Midnight Pyjama Party at Webster Hall to celebrate Bedtime Stories in 1995 and taking it all the way through American life. So we'll see you next week.

• 4:33:16Yasi Salek?

  If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of Bandplain. Our guest today was Patrick Sandberg. This episode was produced by Rob Sunderland and edited by Adrian Bridges with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Jacob Cornet. Executive producers for Bandplain are Gina Delavec and me, Yasi Solit. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cosentino and Jennifer Klavman and graciously recorded by Carlos de la Garza in Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer emeritus, producer Dylan, AKA Dylan Pepper Roper, and also Sean Fantasy, Sarah Nataff, and the Madonna Splain Group Chat. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of Bandplain on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

• 4:33:58Speaker 03

  Who's that terrible lawyer who everybody hates?

• 4:34:01Yasi Salek?

  Aaron Brockovich.

• 4:34:07Speaker 03

  Oh my God.

• 4:34:09Yasi Salek?

  No, I'm sorry. I don't know who you're talking about.