Drew Afualo on the Rules Women Should Stop Following

Drew Afualo opens up about writing her bestselling book, LOUD, the darker side of TikTok fame, her podcasts The Comment Section and Two Idiot Girls, and her Samoan culture and family. Drew gets real about questioning the rules women are taught to follow, why they don’t always have to be nice, and how her fiancé, Pili, won her heart. Plus, Drew’s hot takes on dating, Love Island, Chappell Roan, and her full-circle moment with The Rock, and why she went to bat for Keke online before they met. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  So much of our lives is shaped by the rules we never choose. The rules about success, beauty, relationships, motherhood, even who we're supposed to be. My guest today has built an incredible career by asking two simple questions. Who made these rules in the first place? And how do you unlearn them? Drew Afallow is a two-time Time 100 creator, a New York Times bestselling author of Loud, and the host of the podcasts The Comment Section and Two Idiot Girls. She's become one of the most influential voices of her generation by encouraging millions of people to question the stories they've been told about themselves. Today, we're talking about family, identity, ambition, love, and what happens when you

• 0:43Keke Palmer?

  stop living by other people's rules and start trusting your own voice? So, let's get into it. Baby, this is Keke Palmer, and baby, this is Drew Afallow.

• 1:23Keke Palmer?

  Today's episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Seventh Generation. I know I'm extra. They know I'm extra. We've made peace with it. But my cleaning products don't get to be extra. They get to work. Seventh Generation keeps it simple, so I don't have to pretend otherwise. Let's get into today's show.

• 1:47Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my God. I love the tooth gem. I say tooth gem, but you do have one couple.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  I do, I do.

• 1:53Keke Palmer?

  You look fabulous and you smell so good.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Thank you, so do you.

• 1:56Keke Palmer?

  Thanks, girl. That's a little something, something, you know? How's the day been? Have you been busy?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  It's been wonderful. No, you're my only thing today.

• 2:04Keke Palmer?

  Oh, don't you miss love?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  I have to prioritize Ms. Kiki.

• 2:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. And the first time that we met was during the One of Them Days press tour.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Yes, and you're remembered, and I love that about you.

• 2:12Keke Palmer?

  Of course I did. Because it was fun. You know, during the junkets, it can be very boring and like, you were like actually bringing something unique and interesting.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. And go ahead and write that down. Thank you.

• 2:25Keke Palmer?

  Okay, before I get into the conversation and my pre-show pull-up questions, I wanted to bring up something that I didn't know exactly how to feel about because I wasn't sure who stole whose look.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. It's the same song.

• 2:40Keke Palmer?

  And I'm actually, I feel that you have upstaged me. Like, I really love your pose. It's giving like Raven-Symone, Tyena. Like, this is the show.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  It's the Spider-Man meme.

• 2:51Keke Palmer?

  And it's this. Like, I really just, yeah, so you kind of like ate me up, but it's cool.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  I think we both look beautiful. We're both Virgos, so it works out.

• 2:59Keke Palmer?

  Wait a minute, girl. That's what it is. August or September?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  September.

• 3:02Keke Palmer?

  September early, or?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  I'm September 18th.

• 3:05Keke Palmer?

  Okay, my, one of my best friends growing up, Taylor Pox, hey, she's September 16th. I love me a Virgo down.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  That's Nick Jonas's birthday.

• 3:11Keke Palmer?

  Oh, really?

• 3:12Speaker 01

  And I only know that because I was a huge Jonas brother girl.

• 3:14Keke Palmer?

  Well, guess what, girl? I just started working recently with Joe Jonas.

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 3:18Keke Palmer?

  He is fine. I don't think I, I don't think I like thought it before. Like, it just didn't come into my mind.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:23Keke Palmer?

  You know what I'm saying? Last time I thought about the Jonas Brothers was, yeah, 3,000, we was on a Jingle Jams tour.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:28Keke Palmer?

  You know? But when I saw him, I said, I see what's going on.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get it now.

• 3:32Keke Palmer?

  I get the, I get the Jonas Brothers. I understand it. Okay, so Virgo City, I already know that's your sign.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:38Keke Palmer?

  Um, do you know your big three?

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I do, actually. I am a Virgo sun, Cancer moon, Sagittarius rising.

• 3:44Keke Palmer?

  Oh, wait a minute.

• 3:47Keke Palmer?

  No. Because somebody, when we came up in here, they were like, you guys are like so similar, da-da-da-da-da.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:52Keke Palmer?

  I'm a Cancer rising and a Sagittarius moon.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You're gonna, I'm gonna pull up my face and it's gonna be your face underneath my face.

• 4:00Keke Palmer?

  Crazy. Like, wait, remember Men in Black?

• 4:04Keke Palmer?

  Girl, literally?

• 4:05Speaker 01

  The substance, I'm gonna have to absorb you. That's what's gonna have to happen.

• 4:09Keke Palmer?

  That is absolutely insane that we're the same person. Also, randomly, we're the same person as also Kevin Hart and also Drewski. They all have that same big three in some type of combination.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Same name. Imagine, imagine my name was Drewski and I shortened it to Drew.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  For the stage name.

• 4:27Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I know you have Peely dying laughing, okay?

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 4:30Keke Palmer?

  Girl. Okay, what is, speaking of, what is your love language?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Um, I think my love language is, my like main one I would say is acts of service. Like, to receive, I would say acts of service. To give, I would say acts of service or like gifts. I'm a big gift girl.

• 4:46Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  I just feel like I can nail a gift for anyone.

• 4:49Keke Palmer?

  That's really a skill because for me, I feel like I'm, I just always just try to, you know, I'm that grandmama that's like $20 in there. You know, because I never, I want you to just buy what you want. Because I get wrapped up in the whole, like, what is a good gift for someone? So that is a very good skill that you have. What is something your friends roast you for? If they roast you for anything?

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Being late.

• 5:10Keke Palmer?

  Oh, girl.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's probably the least Virgo thing about me.

• 5:12Keke Palmer?

  But why is Virgos, are we so organized but late all the time?

• 5:16Speaker 01

  I know. I think it's because when I show up, I show up ready to go.

• 5:18Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  So I don't need to worry about the time. Time's a construct. The party starts when I get there, so it's fun.

• 5:22Keke Palmer?

  And you see, you nail that. And honestly, wouldn't it be too eager to be right on time?

• 5:26Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 5:27Keke Palmer?

  Just a guess.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  We're over-planning at that point. You know, I'm anticipating the vibes.

• 5:33Keke Palmer?

  What is one movie? I think I know what you're gonna say, just because of my research, but what is one movie you could watch over and over again?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Ooh, I have a few. Probably The Heat.

• 5:43Keke Palmer?

  Oh, The Heat.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  The Heat with.

• 5:44Keke Palmer?

  And that's a newer one. Yeah, that's a newer one. I thought you were gonna say The Wedding Singer.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  The Wedding Singer is also one of my favorites of all time. That is true.

• 5:51Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  And it has Drew Barrymore in it, who I was named after.

• 5:54Keke Palmer?

  You were actually named, what, your parents have incredible taste.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 5:58Keke Palmer?

  Drew Barrymore is my girl. Favorite Drew Barrymore movie, if you have one?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Oh, my favorite Drew Barrymore movie?

• 6:02Keke Palmer?

  I have mine already in my, in my head.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Oh, what's yours? What's yours?

• 6:04Keke Palmer?

  Never Been Kissed.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  I was gonna say Never Been Kissed. Oh, my God, I was literally gonna say that.

• 6:08Keke Palmer?

  Also, slightly controversial in today's day.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Very, very, very problematic.

• 6:11Keke Palmer?

  He was in high school messing with your teacher?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, very problematic and weird. But unfortunately, I love it.

• 6:15Keke Palmer?

  In the movie world, we loved it. I love Drew Barrymore.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  For the time, it's perfect.

• 6:19Keke Palmer?

  Exactly, yes. Now, did you grow, where'd you grow up?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Um, I grew up in Santa Ana, California, like Orange County.

• 6:25Keke Palmer?

  Okay, cool. I was gonna just start talking about your parents because our parents were kind of similar. You grew up in kind of like a not, what I would say is not as traditional, but today I feel like it's more common, where your mom was the breadwinner. And your dad, um, who played in the, in the NFL.

• 6:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:39Keke Palmer?

  Was kind of more stay-at-home.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:41Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, as I started working in the industry, that kind of is like how my, my family fell into. How was it like growing up that way for you?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Um, honestly, for me, it didn't look any different to me than other people's families. Like, it, to me, was just like, both my parents work hard, but my mom makes more money than my dad. So my dad's dream has always been to be like a stay-at-home dad.

• 7:01Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Because my dad hates other people but loves his children. So he would love to be a dad. Like, he was like, I don't need to talk to anyone. I'd rather be at home.

• 7:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Um, so my dad has always never had any ego about that. My mom has always been like a go-getter. My mom is the most like motivated woman on planet Earth. So that, to me, the dynamic was so normal to me, which is why, like, my parents had kids before they got married. They were together for a very long time before they got married. So I think it kind of formulated my opinion and view on like relationships, on like love, romance, like contribution, partnership.

• 7:34Keke Palmer?

  I feel the same exact way because I always saw it as equal. Even before I started performing and my mom ended up being the one that was on the road with me most of the time. They would switch up often, but my dad would often be the one that was with my brothers and my sisters. He was sewing, he was making sure we ate good food. My mom's food is terrible, way too salty. You know? I didn't realize that these were things that people attributed to certain genders.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  No, same.

• 7:54Keke Palmer?

  And I think it was a bit of a shock to me when I started getting into the dating world. I'm like, why is everything so tit-for-tat?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 8:00Keke Palmer?

  Fiddy, fiddy, and like, what if you only got five today? You know what I mean? Like, we're supposed to be a partnership. And so I think it's like, I feel really lucky that we've had that experience, but it is interesting how we're now, I feel like even though that concept is more common now and we're in this modern era where we're, you know, people can be whatever they want with their identity, we're talking about all these things and breaking down concepts, there's also still this big push towards traditionalism in this way that can sometimes feel stifling.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also, it's very ironic to me, too, because like you said, it, it feels like so back-in-the-day misogyny. I always call it like madmen misogyny.

• 8:37Keke Palmer?

  Uh-huh.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  Because the era that that was made in, that, yeah, that makes sense. You're very misogynistic at the time. Obviously, look at you, you guys drink whiskey at 9:00 a.m. So obviously, you have different problems.

• 8:45Keke Palmer?

  And giving them wives all that coke with real coke in it.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  Right, for real. Like, you're hiring women based off breast size, so yeah, obviously, at that time, that makes sense. But now, I feel like, I think it just depends, like, when women start succeeding and becoming more prominent, like, and then they start talking actively about how romantic love does not need to be more important than platonic love. You can wait for partnership. You actually don't need men to do literally anything in the world anymore, including have children.

• 9:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  So you can choose to be with them. It's not obligatory anymore, it's a choice. And so I, I think that's the time when it starts to get ironic and confusing to me when, when there's pushback online, especially.

• 9:20Keke Palmer?

  Well, imagine, in my mind, I would think as a guy, I'm not a man, you know what I'm saying? But in my mind, I would think, phew, good, come over here and help me with some of this. That's what I, that's what I would think. Because it's like, for so long, gender was defined by you having to hold, in my opinion, way too much. Like, the patriarchy is screwing you. You know what I mean?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 9:40Keke Palmer?

  Because it's like, why, why should one human being have to be all of these things?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:45Keke Palmer?

  So in my mind, I would imagine that. A concept of feminism or just equal, you know, contribution across genders.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:52Keke Palmer?

  Would actually be a relief.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  You would think.

• 9:54Keke Palmer?

  To the male species. I've always wondered that because I'm, but I do feel like since we've talked about this more and, you know, again, women getting in positions of power. We even had Kamala Harris running for the president. Like, when was that happening?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:04Keke Palmer?

  When we see those things, it does end up seeming like now it's a bigger push to go backwards. And I, I, I, I don't know. I don't know how, I don't know. You talk about it a lot. I think about it a lot. I experienced this a lot.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:14Keke Palmer?

  I wonder how we can just like, you know, no more drama between us. Like, how can we?

• 10:20Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, what do we, you know what I'm saying? Like, how can we get together? Especially like, we're podcast hosts. We're, you know, in the public eye and like, community driven. Like,

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:29Keke Palmer?

  I really do wish there was a way to change that conversation.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and to move forward.

• 10:33Keke Palmer?

  And to move forward.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's, honestly, I think there's far more people in the middle than there are on very opposing sides, if that makes sense. So there's a lot of people in the middle who are torn because they're confused on certain things because they're getting mixed signals, I think, from media and from their upbringing and everything like that. So I think more than anything, I think it's focusing on the people who are like-minded and continuing to build community with them. And then eventually the community will grow so vast and so large that like, you won't be able to hear naysayers anymore and you won't be able to hear bigots anymore. I think it's more so focusing on the people who are like-minded as opposed to trying to change the minds of people who are not. Cause there's more, there's more fence sitters than there are people who have made up their minds in a very bigoted, old-fashioned way.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Um, which I've said many times before, like, the more common man that's awful is not a man who's like, get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich. Like, it's not that guy. The more common man is someone who's like, you're pretty funny for a girl. That's, that's the far more common man. That's misogyny. That's like roaches. I'm killing them. I'm slapping them. I'm killing every single one.

• 11:37Keke Palmer?

  Like roaches being born again. Roaches don't need a mate. You know that? I found that out about roaches.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  And they can outlive like apocalypse and everything.

• 11:44Keke Palmer?

  Literally, like, it's, it's really like, whoa.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 11:50Keke Palmer?

  Well, you are proudly Samoan.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:52Keke Palmer?

  So tell me a little about growing up in your household, your culture. What are things that some of us that haven't had the opportunity to dive into the culture, we, we should know.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, back to the original point about like our parents kind of emulating dynamics, like,

• 12:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Samoan culture at its genesis is matriarchal in many ways. So women hold a lot of power. Women are very influential in the family. Like their voices matter, their opinions matter. So that's the environment I was raised in, was a lot of women in power. Women make decisions like, yeah, if your dad says yes, that's fine. But like, my mom has to say yes too, for it to be for real.

• 12:23Keke Palmer?

  That's how it is with black folks too. Big mama. Everybody know that big mama. I ain't cutting off my leg. Y'all know.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that's, that was the environment I was like raised in, as well as like, I think a big part of it, which kind of ties into like, how people found me, how they came to know me, was like humor and like making fun of each other. Roasting each other is like a huge part of it. Like getting raised with your cousins and being mean to each other is very, very.

• 12:48Keke Palmer?

  Playing the dozens can get really scary.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  I'm telling you.

• 12:50Keke Palmer?

  And people could start fighting in the middle.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And now, and that's why like, sometimes when they're like, it never hurts your feelings when people say this. I'm like, you guys weren't raised in my family. You have no idea.

• 12:57Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  You've mean. You've never heard mean.

• 13:00Keke Palmer?

  No, yes.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  You don't know what that word means, mama. That's what I always think. So I, I think like that was a huge indicator of how I turned out to be this way, how I got funny, but also I think how I learned how to take a joke. Cause I feel like, one, a running joke when I was a kid, cause I used to be very sensitive, obviously cancer moon. So I'm extremely sensitive and I used to not be able to take a joke. And my mom used to say things like, well, don't joke with her. She can't take a joke. No one tell her jokes anymore. She can't laugh. And that used to make me have FOMO. So then I was like, well, I do obviously want to be included. I just like, don't want to be made fun of. But I can't make fun of others if I can't learn to laugh at myself. So I think that was like, one of the biggest things I learned and that's very cultural. And the laugh too is very cultural. Not exclusive to me. A lot of people think it's like for, they think it's for like the show, but I'm like,

• 13:43Speaker 01

  if you talk to any Samoan person, they cackle just like me.

• 13:46Keke Palmer?

  And I want to learn how to say Samoan. How do you, I'm saying Samoan wrong. I don't want to colonize.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  You could say it that way. No, he said, I don't want to be a colonizer.

• 13:52Keke Palmer?

  I want to say it right. Yeah, Samoan.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  I was like explaining to someone earlier that it's, it's very like, kind of like, you know how in Mexico, you say Mexico, but the proper pronunciation of it is Mexico. It's just like that. So you can say Samoan. If you're not Samoan, I don't expect you to know how to say it. But like, if you are Samoan, then you should say Samoan. So it's like Samoan.

• 14:12Keke Palmer?

  Samoan.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  There you go. Samoan.

• 14:13Keke Palmer?

  Yes. Girl, you done bombing into it. Yes. I feel so embraced. Um, well, you, you talking about growing up, but I'm, I'm curious because you are such a confident person. When did you grow into that? Like as a kid, were you always able to be loud? Or was there a certain point in time that you remember where it was like, I'm coming into my own?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  I, well, honestly, it sounds so made up because of what I do for a living, but like, I really have always been this way. Like, I have been this confident and annoying. I honestly think it's gone down a little bit as I've gotten older. Like, I think it was worse, my hubers was a lot worse when I was younger. With no merit whatsoever. I had no validation. Um, I was just always, I've just always been so confident that I am like the most awesome version of myself. And it's never been denigrating to others, like in, in my.

• 14:58Keke Palmer?

  Come on, denigrating. A lot of okay.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  It's never been at like, at, at the expense of others. It's always been like, I think I'm so unbelievably awesome and unique. And I think everybody's like that. That's how I've always thought. And I feel like you felt that way too.

• 15:12Keke Palmer?

  That's that energy. I'm so happy and I want you to be too. And they're like, sit your ass down.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's like, well, you're so yourself. And this is so applicable to you. Like, you're so yourself that people think it's like an act until they meet you and you're like, no, this is just how I move. This is just how I exist. Like, I promise I've been this way forever. I feel the same way. So that's how I've always been. I feel like unbelievably borderline, delusionally confident. And I, and what's funny is like, I was just saying this the other day on an interview, but like, like I said, I was a big Jonas Brothers girl when I was like in middle school. So I remember thinking as a middle schooler, I'd be like, well, obviously he's gonna like me. But like, am I gonna like him? That's the real question. Like, I would like actually ask myself that question.

• 15:54Keke Palmer?

  But I love that because that's esteem too.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  I think so too.

• 15:57Keke Palmer?

  It's like confidence, but it's also like esteem and where I put myself, which is, again, I always wonder, are these things, and it's good to ask this, because are these things that you were just born with? And if you are, then how do we teach ourselves to, and whatever it might be, you know, being outgoing or being more disciplined, you know? How much of it can we actually nurture in ourselves?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a really great question. I, I feel like a big part of it for me, and it seems like, it, I think it gets very like, sometimes irritating to hear, but like, I've really decolonized my brain in a lot of ways. And that includes most especially beauty standards. So it's like,

• 16:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Who I see and what I perceive to be beautiful, how I grew up. Like, a perfect example I always use is fatness. Like, I grew up around fat people. I've been surrounded by fat people. I've been a fat person. So like, for me, fatness has never taken away from anyone's beauty. Fatness has never prevented anyone in my life from getting married and having kids and being in love. That has never been the case. So, and even something like long hair, like I've always grown up loving long hair on men because in Samoan culture, like long hair is beautiful on men. It's masculine. Right? It's very like good, it's very attractive, right? So like my, and the same thing goes with body types for women. Like, all the women in my culture are big and thick and strong and have a lot of muscle.

• 17:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  My perception of beauty, I think, was very different. And I think that's why I grew up so confident. Because I was like, what I was looking at looked like me. Um, it wasn't until I started, you know, engaging in a lot of like Western American media that I started noticing huge differences in what people were attracted to. So like, for me, like, it, it, even, you know, they joke about white boy of the month. And they're like, this is the new white boy of the month. Everybody's attracted to him. You ever see him and you're like, I don't know what you're talking about, but like, peace and love.

• 17:41Keke Palmer?

  Magazine is like, finest man of the year. You're like, ning go.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  You're like, no, for sure. No, for sure, for sure. For Samoan, yes. Hey, every pot has its lid.

• 17:52Keke Palmer?

  Samoan.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, every pot has its lid, you know? I, that's what I think. And I, and I really, and even now, I still have it.

• 17:58Keke Palmer?

  I love what you're speaking to, because just in general, we all have individual tastes. That's the thing. The idea that there's one standard of what any one of us would think is beautiful or sexy on any given day.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And it's always white. In like American media, it's always white. It's always thin. That's just never been my experience.

• 18:13Keke Palmer?

  Always thin. That thin is coming back with a vengeance.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  They're like, no, I changed my mind. I changed my mind.

• 18:18Keke Palmer?

  Like, wow.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I changed my mind. I hate fat people again. I changed my mind.

• 18:21Keke Palmer?

  You cannot keep up. I cannot keep up.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I know, me either. That's why, I, I think that's why, um, I grew up really confident too. I think it was just my, what I was perceiving to be beautiful and attractive.

• 18:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, community. What we make ourselves open to is really big. I talk about this a lot with social media because sometimes it's like, it's pretty much the wild, wild west. There's no curation around it. So whatever you, and, and if there is any curation, it's all algorithm based. It's all, you know, sponsored based or whatever. You know, I don't know how everything works. But because of that, you don't really often see the communities that would encourage the way that you think. Or, or just support and empower the way you think. You're often being, because people want to sell you stuff.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  You're being fed something.

• 19:01Keke Palmer?

  You're being fed, uh, the idea that you have less and that you need more.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:06Keke Palmer?

  At what age or part of your life did you start to, that you did become open to like, wait a minute, there's someone that wants something different than what I believe is awesome?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  I think it was around, probably around middle school, like, like later middle school, because I remember around that time, and I wrote about this in my book too, that, um, that's when I started kind of noticing my body was different. Because I also, I had puberty in middle school, but I've been tall my whole life. So like, when I was in seventh grade, I think I was like five, five, five, six.

• 19:34Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Which is a little shocking and scary, um, when you're a young woman.

• 19:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Uh, they're like, okay, why are you five, eight? And you're eleven. So that, my dad is six, six though. So my dad's a big dude. My mom's five, three. So there's like, there was a real fifty, fifty shot how big I was gonna be. You know what I mean? My sister stopped growing at five, four. I blew past her in middle school. And like, in one year, I grew four inches. So I went from like five, four to five, eight. And I was still in middle school. Horrifying.

• 20:00Keke Palmer?

  You were sleeping.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Right. I was eating my greens. So around that time, I I remember starting to notice my body was different and like I I had brought it up to my mom. And I was like, sometimes I wish I looked like my friends on my soccer team, which were small, white girls. And my mom was like, this is gonna sound mean, but it's not. I don't mean it to be. Um, you're never gonna look like them.

• 20:21Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  But that's not a bad thing. You guys just look different. And one day, you're really gonna love like how big you are, like big, how tall you are. She's like, one day, you're really gonna love it. Like, it's just, it doesn't feel like that now. And that was, I remember that was one of the few times I was feeling a little, I was being caught by the insecurity.

• 20:37Keke Palmer?

  Sure.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  And I remember thinking, you don't know. Like, at the time. And then eventually, obviously, when I got older, she was right. Like, now I love being tall, but like, all throughout high school, I hated it. I hated how tall I was. Because I was always bigger than every boy ever. Um, so whenever men tell me they're 60 and I can see your scalp, you're a liar.

• 20:54Keke Palmer?

  Okay. And by the way, you're bald and bald.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, hey, and um, force is thinning. I'd work on that. So, uh, I've been big my whole life. So I think once I kind of accepted that was probably when I got out of high school. That was around the time.

• 21:07Keke Palmer?

  I was always very raised with the you're never going to look like that or be like that. And I think that's actually where my confidence came from.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 21:13Keke Palmer?

  Because if I have one, only one option, and I I'm being this, something happens in my mind where I'm a big reframer, where it's just like,

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 21:20Keke Palmer?

  Well, this is the best thing to be, clearly.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Okay, well, then lucky me.

• 21:24Keke Palmer?

  Like, lucky me, because if this is, this, how can you not, how can I not love what I've got? I've gotta love it. Like, that that doesn't seem like it computes in my mind.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  You're so mean. That's exactly how I feel.

• 21:35Keke Palmer?

  It's like, there's no other way that it can be. Has there been a time in your, with us saying this, I'm sure you probably feel the same way, that having that kind of personality, or having that kind of mind, and, look, we're not always like that. Like you just said, you had a conversation with your mom. I've had the, you know, some, I have these moments, but do you ever feel like people lean on you a lot for that energy? And how do you help yourself regulate through that? Because I've, I'm asking because I've feel that a lot, especially in this time of my life, you know? Where it's like, yeah, like, I am this person, and I love to be of service and and I love that people can respond and engage with that. But sometimes I wanna be just

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Unhappy too.

• 22:10Keke Palmer?

  Too. You know, I'm more in a corner or just not say anything, you know?

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, absolutely. I think that's a wonderful question. But yeah, I do, it does feel that way sometimes, I think especially the way that I built a platform, because it was like, in in addition to the confidence, it's also like tackling misogyny and and white supremacy and patriarchy as a whole. And like, you know, how do I, how do I like, you know, find a man who's not terrible? And like, that I I do have a lot of responsibility in that sense. And it does, it does get heavy, like, and and I think that's why, you know, when I started becoming like someone, like moving past TikTok, and I, you know, got the show, and I wrote my book and everything, um, I think that's another reason.

• 22:48Keke Palmer?

  Congratulations.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Thank you. I think it's another reason why I wanted to do the book too, was to give, um, people who love me and my fans, like, a more solidified, like, version of me.

• 22:56Keke Palmer?

  Yes, fully within context, nuance, not just these five second clips.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  Exactly, like, reference material. Um, I vote, I was like saying on the press for it too, that I was like, this is like a piece of my brain and my heart for you guys to take home and revisit every time you need it, like, you can revisit it. Because relying on me is not realistic, obviously, especially if if you're a fan of me. So I do feel that way too, though, sometimes. I'm sure you feel that way after you do the show. Like, sometimes when I film the show, I need about five to eight minutes of sitting in complete silence by myself.

• 23:24Keke Palmer?

  Well, I think it's important that we talk about it, because,

• 23:28Speaker 01

  So I get it.

• 23:28Keke Palmer?

  That's the world that we live in, where there's a lot of stuff that's without context. People are seeing you, but only a part of you. And that part of you is very much you, but everybody has more range than just their number one thing. It's like, you go, you got five love language, we got those first two, but I got a couple other three in the back that you don't know about. You know what I mean? They're just not the first front-facing ones.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:47Keke Palmer?

  But because people always love the front-facing one of somebody with a big bubbly personality, sometimes that's the only one that gets love.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  I agree. And I, and I've expressed that before too. I think that's why the few times, like, I had to take a break a couple of years ago, um, just for a couple of months, like, through the holidays, I just wanted to not post anything, and I just wanted to be like off my phone. Because that was the first time in my career, it started feeling like it was affecting how I see myself.

• 24:11Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  And that is something I will not let them have. Like, I was like, I've given so much, and you have too. Um, I have sacrificed so much in order to be this person for you, to be this person to you, to be perceived as this, which is wonderful and great, and I'm thankful for. Um, but the minute it starts making me see myself differently behind closed doors is the part that I think the time, or I need to take a break.

• 24:32Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  So I I stepped away for a couple of months, which was really nice for me. It was, it kinda helped me recalibrate.

• 24:37Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  And start kind of looking at it different.

• 24:39Keke Palmer?

  And it was authentic.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 24:40Keke Palmer?

  Which I think is like, every, authenticity is not to me consistency without any movement. It's being real in every moment you have.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:49Keke Palmer?

  So, and that could be a range, you know what I mean? And so, I I I would love that and appreciate you for sharing that. And it works in the opposite way too, because like, people don't, never wanna hear Mary J. Blige happy. We want her to be sad all the time so we can get a real, nah. You know, you feel what I mean? So it's like, you know, it works many ways.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  And that's true. And like, for us too, like, we are entertaining. So it's like, if I'm not feeling great, I can't be as entertaining, I can't be as bubbly and awesome. And I think too, like, a lot of it too, sometimes was, at the time I took my break, was coming from, like, you know, sometimes women are like, you know, how do I, like, do the same thing you're doing? I have been telling women forever, maybe they'll listen to me now that I'm talking to you, take it. Take it, bitch. If you wanna do it, if you wanna fight men, please, by all means, take it. I don't need it anymore. Hey, I got the championship belt, who else wants it? Okay, does anyone wanna share? Come take it, mama, I really don't care.

• 25:39Keke Palmer?

  Come take it, mama.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  And I was like, you take it, and you'll get, you'll, you will bring it back to my doorstep in a day, because dealing with men at that level is [BLEEP] awful. And I really do think that God and the universe has given me the the invisible armor in order for me to be able to do it. It is really terrible.

• 25:56Keke Palmer?

  Well, let's talk about it, let's get into it. Let's get into these comments in this comment section.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:07Keke Palmer?

  I am, by every definition, a lot. My outfits are a moment, my reactions are a gank. I've been called dramatic in three different group chats this week alone, and every single time, I said, correct. That's just who I am. And honestly, I've made peace with it. But somewhere along the way, I learned there's a difference between extra where it counts and extra where it's just showing off. And my old cleaning products were absolutely showing off and doing more to cover up than to actually clean. Girl, sit down. So I switched to Seventh Generation. Bio-based cleaning power that handles the job without the theatrics. Plus, no dyes, artificial fragrances, or bottles full of ingredients auditioning for a part they didn't get.

• 26:52Keke Palmer?

  It just works. And it doesn't need to announce itself while it's doing it. Seventh Generation provides a powerful clean without anything extra. So, if you already bring the extra to the function, make the switch today to Seventh Generation. A powerful clean without anything extra. My son Leo sees everything. I mean that literally. The kid misses nothing. Every detail, every person, every moment that most adults would walk right past, he is fully present for all of it. Traveling with him has genuinely changed the way I move through the world, because he reminds me to actually be in it. And what I've learned from traveling with Leo is that the best trips aren't about where

• 27:35Keke Palmer?

  you go, they're about what you're dropped into when you get there. A neighborhood that has character, you know, a a home that has a backyard and a kitchen and a living room big enough to actually live in. A super host who points you toward the coffee shop and the park and the spot that doesn't have a sign, but absolutely should. When I book a stay on Airbnb, for us, it's not just finding a place. I'm building the world he gets to explore for those few days. And watching him explore it, that's the best part. This is Leo's summer. Find a home on Airbnb and build that world for your kids. There was a summer where I was 11 years old, on a movie set, learning 100 lines, and somehow

• 28:20Keke Palmer?

  still having the time of my life. Because that's the thing about being a kid, you don't need the conditions to be perfect, you just need to be present, free, and completely unbothered by what comes next. I've been chasing that feeling ever since. The blended pink energy drink is how I find it now. Strawberry, acai, real strawberry pieces, coconut milk, completely blended and frozen, and so good, it's irresistible. The second is in my hand, whatever is on my schedule can wait. Leo and I are going outside, honey, we have lines to forget and nothing to do. Little Kiki will be satisfied, trust me on that. Unlock your best summer memories with the blended pink energy drink from Starbucks. Available now.

• 29:04Keke Palmer?

  Order now on the app or find it in Starbucks.com.

• 29:13Keke Palmer?

  Take me through when you were like, oh yeah, this is just me doing this. And then to, I'm getting real, real rabbit feedback.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for real.

• 29:23Keke Palmer?

  And how do I keep going forward with this?

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was probably around like when I first blew up on TikTok and I started, like the very first video I ever had go viral was like very specific red flags in men. Um, which kind of just put me on the path, like that put me on the path of men being the subject of ridicule.

• 29:40Keke Palmer?

  Now, did you always have an idea of being, I know you, you actually did, right? You wanted to do sports.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:45Keke Palmer?

  Sports journalism when you were younger, that dream moved. So you always had the kind of in the front, you know, in front of the camera vibe.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I learned how to be, I learned how to talk on camera. I learned how to like, uh, edit videos, lighting, camera work, all that kind of stuff, editing. So I learned all that in college because that was what I wanted to do.

• 30:02Keke Palmer?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  And I honestly really wanted to be like more in the entertainment side of things, but I just didn't think it was an option for myself because I didn't see anyone who looked like me outside of The Rock.

• 30:12Keke Palmer?

  Right, right.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  So, you know, big bald guys taken.

• 30:14Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Don't try to get that. It's taken. For real. So like I went the sports route because I figured like maybe I could get on camera that way. Um, got fired, COVID hit, and then I started making TikToks. And like when I started making TikToks, at first I was talking about like my own relationship or I was talking about dating. And then I saw like that specific red flags in men video. I just made a whole list, put it behind me, just went to town. That was the first time I was like really making jokes about men. That one went super viral. That was my very first video to ever go viral. And then like, because I'm 30 now, so like at the time, I think I was like 24, 25. And I had been online before, but I had never experienced hate ever. So like.

• 30:56Keke Palmer?

  It's a doozy.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  It is, and I, and I was very like overwhelmed by it in the sense of just how much of it I was feeling, but at the same time, like, like I said, how I grew up, I thought everybody was having fun. I thought we were all joking and you guys want to tell jokes about looks, let's. I'm actually really good at that. They, they all found out the hard way. I'm actually very good at that. So then that's how I started making videos. And I was like posting like 10 or 12 a day. Like I would, I would get one awful comment. I would go look at what they looked like. I'd put the picture behind me, I'd go to town. And that was before I had handcuffs on me. Once they gave me, one time, once they gave me that blue checkmark, they put handcuffs on me, bitch. Like, I was like, I can't do it anymore. They won't let me do it anymore. Like sometimes people ask me, how come you don't do them anymore? I can't. Now I'm a public person, now they'll get mad at me. So like.

• 31:39Keke Palmer?

  That is real, and I've had that a lot, especially when it comes to like reality TV or just conversations. That is a real thing. And it, you know, in my opinion, it's like, yeah, you know, you gotta take it, you know, correctly because I don't want nobody to get dog piled too damn crazy. You know what I mean? So that's like a real thing. A lot of people, sometimes they want you to have such great, big opinions, but it's like, if I have an opinion, I need to make it, I need to pull out the concept.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:02Keke Palmer?

  And the theme.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  I have to think about consequences because it matters.

• 32:05Keke Palmer?

  Yes, I cannot just attack that person.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:08Keke Palmer?

  Because at some point, it's like now, it's like somebody is just ready to call it.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Well, and even, even before like that too, I, even at the beginning, and I'm proud of myself for doing it then, I was very strict about how I did it. So I was like, I'm not, um, I'm only going to do it if I see them like actually physically say it themselves. I'm not taking requests because you can give me a request and I'll go look, but if I don't find anything, I'm not going to roast them publicly because for all I know, you could be lying to me. Because like sometimes people are like, can I hire you to make a video about my ex? No. Um, the rate's too high, but also.

• 32:39Keke Palmer?

  They want you to go to Cameo.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? I was doing cameos at the very beginning, I was. And then I started getting them when I started getting more popular. I started getting ones where men were like wanting to give me money to degrade them, like in a sexual way. And they, like I had.

• 32:53Keke Palmer?

  Not the Dom energy.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  I remember the very last one where I shut, this made me shut down my cameo, I'm not even kidding. Because someone said, can you call me like a dirty little boy and tell me how bad I am? Not for $30. Off. Hey, off. Hey, I'm going to need seven more zeros on the end of that. What are you, nuts? Yeah, not for 30 bucks. No. This is supposed to be for happy birthdays, bitch, not that.

• 33:14Keke Palmer?

  That is a very interesting part of the fetish concept. Like really wanting somebody to kick you in your balls?

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what the hell it is.

• 33:22Keke Palmer?

  That's so crazy.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  But keep it away from me. I don't, I don't know what it is, keep it away. I don't need it. Thank you, I would buke, thank you though.

• 33:27Keke Palmer?

  I love it, that's so funny. She said for $30?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said, not for 30 bucks. Hey, I'm going to need a little bit more than that for that.

• 33:34Keke Palmer?

  Oh my gosh. Okay, so it started off, this is how it started off. What do you think, or could you have predicted? What did it, what did it be, what it became, right? Like at some point, you had to start thinking, okay, I gotta turn, I'm getting more popular. I want to be responsible. I know you probably didn't really think about being a role model or something like that. But at a certain point, you did decide to take it seriously.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:54Keke Palmer?

  As a responsibility. What did that look like?

• 33:56Speaker 01

  I feel like at the beginning, when I really started like hitting a stride as far as like growing, because when I was just making the videos, I was making $0.00. Um, I was doing it purely for the love of the game alone.

• 34:09Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Um, I just found it really fun to make fun of them and I, I loved that people were drawing a lot of power from it. I think it was when I started kind of giving more in-depth explanations as to why I react the way I do, why I respond to disrespect the way I do, bigotry. Um, that was when it started feeling a little bit like more than just making fun of men. Um, and I remember at one point, I was growing so quickly and so fast, but I was not getting approached by anyone. Like there was no agents, you know, coming to sign me.

• 34:40Keke Palmer?

  That's a big thing.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was, and for obvious reasons, right? Like it's, the whole pitch about me was very like, I'm too controversial to sell. Like, like brands won't want to work with me because of the nature of my content. And I remember talking to my fiance about it at the time and I was like, you know, what if like people don't want to work with me like on a serious scale? Because I really do love doing this and I'll keep doing this, even if I make no money, I'll just, you know, go back to normal job, normal work. Um, and he was like, well, would you want to work with someone that would find what you do controversial because what you do is not controversial?

• 35:11Keke Palmer?

  And, and this is the king.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is my man.

• 35:14Keke Palmer?

  Exactly. Because he talking right. Because this is a big thing that I love that, that you're bringing this up because, look, it is important when you are building a brand and you're trying to make partnerships to make sure that there's a way that you can.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  Be professional.

• 35:26Keke Palmer?

  Yes, and, and, and there's a system of how things go. So you have to, learning how to translate your language, your vibe and your culture that there's literally no space for in a system to be able to work.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:36Keke Palmer?

  It's an amazing, incredible skill that every entrepreneur has to learn. However, they need to be the right partner for you to be doing all that collaborating with.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  It's like a balance.

• 35:45Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Exactly, I agree.

• 35:46Keke Palmer?

  So I love that, that your fiancee Peely, am I pronouncing correctly?

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:48Keke Palmer?

  That's what he said. He's on point.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he was like reminding me too, like it was important, why I was doing it, like what I loved about doing it in the first place. And so I was like, okay, period, period, period. And then honestly, my agent now, one of my agents now, who's still my agent to this day, like she was the only person that really pursued me. And she really had to fight for me. Like she told them, I'm telling you, like she's going somewhere, like this, this is the girl, like we have to like lock in with her. And now I'm with her and she's on her own now, which is amazing, but I really do think I'm like, the women are going to do it every time. And they're going to do it every time for me.

• 36:19Keke Palmer?

  Honestly, it really, I feel this, I like literally, I cannot tell you that I sat down and thought like, everybody needs to be a fierce bitch on my team. But when I tell you every bitch is fierce on my team, like every, like all of it.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Birds of a feather.

• 36:29Keke Palmer?

  I'm, come on, together. Eagles in the sky. Okay? I'm bird. Caca. Girl, straight out. Like every single, and it's like, you know, it's just, it is, I just really live for a boss diva girl that's going to just do it every.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  I know, every time.

• 36:45Keke Palmer?

  It's just in the multitasking abilities.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  And they look beautiful while they do it.

• 36:48Keke Palmer?

  Come on.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  And I, and I really do think like.

• 36:51Keke Palmer?

  Love these ladies.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  That, that kind of transition from that, like the mindset is where it shifted there. It was very like, okay, and then I think on a literal scale, I just got too big to ignore. Like they, it just, yeah, I got to the point where I was so big that they had no choice but to try and figure out a way to work with me.

• 37:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  And now that I've proven it, now it's like a non-issue. But like.

• 37:09Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  I think at the time, I just had to get big enough that they were just like, okay, fine. Fine, we'll pay attention to you, fine.

• 37:14Keke Palmer?

  As my mom always says, the cream rises to the top.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Period.

• 37:17Keke Palmer?

  She's always told me that at every stage in my career, when people was quiet, you know, when I didn't know what was going on.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:22Keke Palmer?

  Consistency, keep doing you.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And look at you, girl.

• 37:24Keke Palmer?

  Come on, girl.

• 37:27Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so you've talked openly about imposter syndrome. And I think this is probably something that, again, we, we talk about people like us, our personality. People sometimes don't understand how the two things can exist.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:37Keke Palmer?

  How can you be having imposter syndrome, but also be showing up and giving it your all type of thing? Um, so when you were in the process of writing Loud, what were you kind of, how were you coming to, um, sharing these realizations?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:49Keke Palmer?

  And how you were still somewhat succeeding even while living with caring that?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, I think for Loud, it was like, my editors were wonderful and my main editor was like, I think, the reason why he was able to push a little bit. Like, I love, because obviously you're like me, like very convicted in path. Like I know where I'm going, I know how I'm going to get there. I know what I want to do. So you don't need to correct my path because I'm on the right path, I know that. But then sometimes I think what I struggle with is being vulnerable on a larger scale, like.

• 38:17Keke Palmer?

  Girl, yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like it's pushing me to be a little bit more vulnerable. And I think that's why there were a couple of stories in there. Like there's one where I talk about my decision to not have kids, um, and why, and like how that catalyzed, and then also my sister coming out to me. And those were like really, really difficult things in my life that I had to like process and work through in therapy. And then I'll have to write about and show the world. So I think in that, I was getting a little nervous and I think like subconsciously, I wasn't fully committing. So my editor had a talk with me, uh, once in the process of writing where he was like, if you really want to put these stories in there, like take me there then. Like take me there in a way that's like comfortable for you, but like you really have to open up a little bit if you want me to see it and like believe it and walk in it with you. And so I think the gentle pushing of me opening up just a little bit more, um, allowed me

• 39:02Speaker 01

  to kind of open up in a way that I still felt safe and I still felt protected. Because obviously it's one of those where it's like, once you put it out there, it's out there. And I don't, I don't really want to hear feedback. I just kind of want to tell you how I went through it. I don't really need feedback though, especially not on a personal life experience. I don't need.

• 39:17Keke Palmer?

  This isn't a reconciliation, this is a demonstration.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Go ahead and observe and nothing more, that's totally fine with me. Um, and then I'm really glad I, that he pushed me to that point because I feel like those were two of the biggest things that people talked about, um, in loving my book. Outside of the general like theme of it, which is like self-love and empowerment, um, those two stories I think really spoke to a lot of people. And I think it's because he got, got me to go there.

• 39:41Keke Palmer?

  I love it.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Sometimes men are helpful.

• 39:43Keke Palmer?

  Who knew? Who knew?

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 39:46Keke Palmer?

  And I have to ask, this might be a silly question, but did you like the Rihanna album Loud?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Of course I did.

• 39:53Keke Palmer?

  When I saw that, I'm like, is this, is there a connection here?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Maybe subconsciously.

• 39:59Keke Palmer?

  My favorite Rihanna album, though, 100% will always be Unapologetic.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  OT.

• 40:05Keke Palmer?

  That was just.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Mine's anti, but period.

• 40:08Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  That's a great one, though.

• 40:10Keke Palmer?

  Like, why was she always, I miss her.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I miss her, yeah. Please come back. We need her.

• 40:15Keke Palmer?

  It's like crazy. One of the chapters in Loud is "It's Okay to Be Mean."

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:20Keke Palmer?

  And this is so huge for women, because like, you know, I don't even know why, like, what we're often called mean for is like, if we're a different, if we're a guy, it would be like, boss.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, assertive.

• 40:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah. Like, so what do you, you know, how do you, or how did you go about being comfortable with setting these boundaries for yourself?

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Um, I think it was, uh, I think it was a mix of trial and error, but I think more than anything, it was just me being so sure about how I deserve to be treated. Like, I was like, I know how I deserve to be treated, so this is not it, and I think we should change it. Like, that's how I felt very, like, young, at a very young age, but I think, I think de-stigmatizing the word "mean" and like what it means to women is more important, because it's, you know, like you said, like, women are often associated with "mean" if it's anything outside of what I want. It could be, it could not even really be [BLEEP] mean, because what does mean even mean?

• 41:14Keke Palmer?

  Right, what's the context?

• 41:15Speaker 01

  The word is so meaningless when you apply it to every single feeling, that's just not awesome. So like, for women, only, only, only for women. Like, so, I always tell people, like, I have, just like everyone else, the capacity to be mean. Everybody has the capacity to mean, to be mean, and everybody's mean looks different. So for me, I think when you reframe, like you were saying, you're a big fan of reframing.

• 41:39Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  What that even, like, looks like being mean, I think you can realize that a lot of times what they're talking about is just standing up for yourself. When you stand up, when you advocate for yourself, it's mean. Then I think what you really need to process, like, as a woman, is like, I don't care if people call me mean. Like, I don't, I don't really give a [BLEEP], because as long as you respect me, that's all I really care about. Whether or not we like each other, we haven't even gotten to. But I think mutual respect should be understood between two consenting adults. I think that's like, kind of just baseline. I offer that to everybody, so I expect it in return. If it's not given to me, then you're not getting it from me. And it's very simple to me. I feel like that's a very simple concept.

• 42:17Keke Palmer?

  I don't want to have to do it. Like, it's like you get to the point where people start playing a role, like, in order to not be called mean, to get what they want, when it's like, we all saying the same thing, though. She just said it.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:28Keke Palmer?

  Like, why is that the only way for the gag to go?

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Listen, right.

• 42:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  And I think that's why.

• 42:33Keke Palmer?

  I don't want to act like this.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Well, and I've talked about how, like, men are used, like, women are very used to considering others, like, that is quite literally our, our job. Like, we've been [BLEEP] taught that from the minute our eyes open, um, and men are used to being considered. So it's, it's one of those where it's like, no, you're gonna consider me too. I'm, I'm gonna consider you by force, and you're gonna consider me by force then, if that's the case. And that's, that's why it's like, I don't walk around just being mean to anyone, but if you are mean to me and you catch me on the wrong day, uh-oh.

• 43:03Keke Palmer?

  And I'm just being true to myself, too. Like, am I not allowed to be true to myself?

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Right. Well, if you were rude to a man, he would perceive it as rude and he would deal with you accordingly. So the only difference really is gender expression, and at this point, what are we talking about?

• 43:15Keke Palmer?

  Literally.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Like, it's, it's all meaningless and stupid at that point, but I think that's why, like, I, I even, like, realized this the other day, uh, with a friend of mine, but like, every interview, podcast I've ever done, like, with white people, um, they're the only people who ever ask me, "Do you ever feel like you're too mean?" I, a person of color who interviews me has never, ever asked me that question, but white.

• 43:38Keke Palmer?

  Kidding, no, that wasn't.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't on yours.

• 43:39Keke Palmer?

  It really wasn't.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  I know it wasn't, that's why I brought it up.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  And I know, and I know, you know why? Because that's not how you see me. And I think, like, that, that, again, like, I'm putting on my, my microbang and my blue hair. It, that is, it all ties back to white supremacy. It's true. Like, it all ties back because white people ask me that question because they genuinely think, sometimes that I'm being mean, but I think you should unpack that. Unpack why you think I'm being mean. If this was coming out of Drewski's face, I doubt you guys would think I was being mean.

• 44:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  You guys would think I'm being hilarious and funny, only. But like, women can see the funny part, too, and they don't, I think sometimes they acknowledge the meanness, but that's just been conditioned in us. So it's something that we can, we can let go of. As easily as we've been taught it, we can also let go of it. And it's just being told. Like, have you ever thought that maybe I'm not being mean?

• 44:25Keke Palmer?

  And I also love what you were saying, just about the idea around what being mean can sometimes be considered, when it's just, I'm just forcing. It's almost like when somebody has an interesting name, you know, "My name is Shawadavie."

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:36Keke Palmer?

  And it's like, just because I've corrected you and said, "My name is Shawadavie."

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:39Keke Palmer?

  Ooh, she's fierce. And it's like, it's a, it's an expression of, eh, my culture, my background, my identity, and because I'm bringing that to the forefront and demanding that to be acknowledged, it is not something that has traditionally been reserved for people of color, and definitely for women. Where it's like, I gotta just let you call me.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 44:58Keke Palmer?

  Chelsea now.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:59Keke Palmer?

  You know what I'm saying? When you know my name is Shawadazah.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:02Keke Palmer?

  You know, because that's what's easy for you. And so when we do get, and this is what I do love, this is what I've loved about social media, this is what I loved back in the day when we was with Tom, HTML coder. Is you get to come into my space.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 45:13Keke Palmer?

  And so we either live in this world now where, you know, it, you know, everybody talking about it's quiet on the creek. You know what I'm saying? Don't even know what the creek is, and why it's quiet. You know, because you done learned about somebody's corner of the world that you otherwise didn't know, or you're seeing a corner and you're now, you can either take the approach of being just completely like, that's harsh, or that's tough, as opposed to, I had no idea that that was something that people was thinking about.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Exactly, consideration.

• 45:37Keke Palmer?

  I didn't even know that this is what was going on in that, that part of the world, or whatever, in women's minds. Instead of being excited and curious, a lot of people are pushing back to stay kind of in the closed-mindedness, which is, and then it's like, this is mean. And it's like, no, I'm just really telling, like, how it is from my side.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I, I do think there's a difference between, like, being advocating for yourself and, like, being rude. Obviously, those are two very different things. But like, what you perceive to be mean, that's why I, I named the chapter. In fact, I was trying to name that, um, actually, that's not true. That was one of my second names for my book. I thought of "It's Okay to Be Mean," but also.

• 46:11Keke Palmer?

  It's a nice title for, for the book, too.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did want to, uh, the other title I had was "I'd Rather Die Alone," and my publisher was like, that's a little harsh. They were like, let's, let's lean a little more positive. I was all, whatever. Uh, yeah, it's about loving yourself, obviously. Okay, fine. Uh, and it worked out. I'm glad with the, I'm happy with the title.

• 46:28Keke Palmer?

  Can't take a joke?

• 46:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm also a comedian. Um, but yeah, I, I think that reframing what that word even means, and what it, what it means to be mean, and why it's only ever attached to women, I think is all, all ties back to the same center point.

• 46:40Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Which is just unpacking internalized biases.

• 46:42Keke Palmer?

  What do you think is the biggest misconception that people can have around the idea of dismantling the patriarchy?

• 46:55Keke Palmer?

  I've said it, I've heard it, we all know the saying, "You need to go see that lady." And sometimes, you know, we give an excuse, "I'll deal with it later, it's probably too expensive, what if it doesn't help me?" Meanwhile, we're still struggling and somebody's worried. But with some research, I found out about Rula. It's a real healthcare company. Sessions average about $15 with insurance, and they tell you that cost before you book. Providers are vetted, outcomes are tracked, and the majority of patients report genuinely feeling better. You can find someone who specializes in exactly what they're going through. Don't talk yourself out of therapy because you think it'll cost too much, won't work, or you have no idea where to even start.

• 47:38Keke Palmer?

  And trust me, that advice goes both ways. If you're ready to stop talking yourself out of finding care and making progress, then head to rula.com. That's R-U-L-A dot com, and take the first step. Dear diary, I'm writing this down just to make sure I remember this feeling. It was one of those days that kept stacking things on top of each other until I almost forgot to stop. But once I got a blended pink energy drink in hand, something in my chest finally let go. Between the acai and the coconut milk with real strawberry pieces mixed into the frozen blend, and let me tell you, it tastes like the best possible version of today.

• 48:18Keke Palmer?

  Some days you just, I gotta admit, you can't fix everything. Some days you just find your moment, and today that was mine. Unlock your best summer memories with the Blended Pink Energy Drink from Starbucks. Order now on the app.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Um, that it, it just, I guess at the very bottom of it, it just means you hate men. I think that's like one of the biggest ones, which like, there is space for that too. I, I do think like, a lot of times I've said this before in interviews, but like, when women say to me very convicted, in a very convicted tone, like I, I hate all of them. I hate all men.

• 48:55Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  I don't ever correct her because there's clearly a reason why you feel that way. And the, and the world is structured in a way to harm women. It has been for thousands of years. It's not new, like misogyny and patriarchy is not new. Um, but I think to have that very like, almost superficial take of feminism as a whole, because my feminism is intersectional, so it includes every, every single person who identifies as a woman. It's not just cisgendered women that I believe in equal rights for, so I think it's just, it's a cheap summation of equal rights. Uh, and I think that the patriarchy as a whole harms everybody.

• 49:28Keke Palmer?

  That's what I wanna, I wanna wake that tea up.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Including men. It's very harmful to men. So it's, you would think that like, working towards it with me like would help you in the long run, right? But it's like, I've said before, like when you speak to your oppressor, you have to speak in a language they understand. And a lot of times with men, it's violence, whether that's violence with words or physically. Uh, it takes all shapes and forms. It depends on the person. So I think it's, unfortunately, that's just the way that they have to learn right now. I'm hopeful that won't be the case forever. But as of right now, I feel like that's the biggest misconception is just like, oh, you just hate men. And even if you do, you're still winning.

• 50:06Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Hey, the world's still set up for you. No worries.

• 50:08Keke Palmer?

  It's interesting because I've never really sat down and I, I never had thought of myself that way. But when I started getting on social media and I started sharing my ideas and obviously my content is in a, as in a range of things, but ideas started seeing like that, I would get a lot of negative comments from men sometimes.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:25Keke Palmer?

  And I'm like, I think in my, in my mind and myself, I think I'm being fair across the board. I love my daddy and all my uncles.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 50:31Keke Palmer?

  You know, and my son.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:33Keke Palmer?

  But it's interesting how just being sometimes the concept of just being yourself, being true, believing that you, believing that you can do it all.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:40Keke Palmer?

  I, I remember one time somebody, I saw very obvious on a guy's face. He was just asking me if he could help me with something. And I was thinking to myself, no, I got it. You know?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:49Keke Palmer?

  Like he was just so, he don't need help with anything. Like, well, no, I'm not, come on now.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. I don't.

• 50:55Keke Palmer?

  I'm just trying to carry my own baggage. You're offended?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:58Keke Palmer?

  Because I didn't, I mean, it's a very heavy bag. I got a lot of [BLEEP] in here.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  Also you feel useless. That's not my fault.

• 51:04Keke Palmer?

  Right. And it gets important. So it's like, it's like even when you think you're, you're, you're as a woman that you're being embracing, just by simply loving yourself, you are immediately a feminist.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:14Keke Palmer?

  And that immediately somehow means that you're trying to attack a man when you're just trying to love yourself. I'm just trying to be good with me.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  And it's because it's, it is a radical idea for women to love themselves in spite of what men think. And that is the patriarchy. Like it quite literally, it's, it's, it's such a radical idea to love yourself. Like that's another thing that I get a lot. When I get hate from men and they say things like, well, I would never [BLEEP] you.

• 51:37Keke Palmer?

  Why would that be the, so I would never [BLEEP] you?

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what's like, okay, me either. And then they get offended. When they call me ugly, I'm like, well, so are you. If we were just two ugly bitches fighting on the internet? Just two ugly people going back and forth?

• 51:49Keke Palmer?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Maybe we have a lot in common. Maybe we're both two fuggos. Here we are.

• 51:53Keke Palmer?

  You like me. Period. That's what this is about. You're really mad because you like me, you really want me to like you bad.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:59Keke Palmer?

  So now you're trying to fight with me like we two kids in a field.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  And it is one of those things where what bothers, and this is like very applicable to a lot of like female pop stars too. And like, and actresses, like women, how they're perceived by media at large. It's not like, and I'll use my friend Chapel as an example, right? It's not, it's not that, she, it's not that you guys think Chapel is a bitch. It's that she doesn't care if you think she's a bitch. That's the part that bothers you.

• 52:25Keke Palmer?

  Yes, you're talking about on the whole fame thing that was going on with her.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Well, and that bothers them about me as well. Like, it's not that I'm not bothered by what you say. That's part of it. But the bigger thing is it's like, it's not affecting how I see myself. It's not affecting how I think about myself. And men are used to crippling women with things like fat and ugly. Like they, that's why that's the first thing they say when you upset them. It's like, well, you're ugly or you're fat. Even if you're not even talking about looks, that's like the first thing they think of to, to say to you, to be mean to you. And it's literally because they think women hold all of their worth and value in what they look like. So they think the meanest thing I could ever say to her is tell her that I do not find her sexually desirable. But there are women like you and I who could not give a [BLEEP] less. I don't actually care.

• 53:10Keke Palmer?

  I'm not gonna be attracted to everybody. You get that? That's also just human. Like it's also just like, of course not everybody's gonna find everybody attractive. Why would that be hurtful to me?

• 53:18Speaker 01

  Well, also ugly liar.

• 53:20Keke Palmer?

  That's a reach. You reach to the stars.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Now you're lying to me and God. That's [BLEEP] up. And he knows. So that's, but that's [BLEEP] up. That's not cool. You're gonna have to answer for that later.

• 53:28Keke Palmer?

  Something else you're making me think of too with this is what, how do you feel or what do you think the participation is of women that are possibly supporting the idea around patriarchy?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:39Keke Palmer?

  What do you, do you always get positive feedback from women? Or do sometimes, are they kind of also taking that side?

• 53:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I've had, I've had women who, yeah, and they're, and they're dealing with internalized misogyny, right? So they obviously, they think I'm the problem, right? Like I'm, it's me, I'm the problem. Like, and that I think is a search and a desperate reach for male validation, right? Because as women, cisgendered women especially, raised in patriarchy, you're taught that like a, a man's approval is what we're aiming for. That's the thing we should be striving towards. And I think that, I know it's a foreign concept to the two of us. But some women really do think that even if it's subconscious, it's very strange to me, but I think I have a lot more.

• 54:19Keke Palmer?

  Because you're a woman.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Right. So you think, well, that's the thing is like,

• 54:23Keke Palmer?

  I'm never gonna be a man.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Cutting, like cutting me in the line is, is not gonna get you there faster. Like in, in terms of equality to men, because at the end of the day, you're still a bitch to them, just like me. And the only difference is I'm not putting up with it, but you're willing to put up with it. I'm not.

• 54:39Keke Palmer?

  And girl, let's get real, girl. If we get together.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alexa played Girl by Destiny's Child.

• 54:45Keke Palmer?

  Then we as women are bringing women up.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 54:47Keke Palmer?

  If we look at the stock market, right? There's the men's stock market. There's the women. You need to invest in us.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 54:54Keke Palmer?

  Because then it's not about trying to get this other side to just agree, but to actually, we don't need a handout. We need to meet eye to eye.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  I agree. And I, and I've said, when there's infighting between women, look how far ahead men get while we fight each other. They're distracting us. I was like, they're distracting us. We need to get back on the track. We need to get back on the track, girl. We need to focus on the real enemy.

• 55:15Keke Palmer?

  Come on, let's go back to the days we was watching Spice Girls and getting that big ass tour bus. I love that. That's what we need to be on, though. It's true, though.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 55:23Keke Palmer?

  And it's not about, again, it's, I feel like this is a big thing on the internet where it's like, the content and the idea is always based around what you hate. Let's get back to what we love.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:32Keke Palmer?

  I love us getting to get, like, girl, let's, like, we could talk, like, we gonna, like, we, let's talk, there's this girl that does this thing online where she's like, I wanna talk about, you know, Sephora and blah, blah, blah, all the beauty products. Are the men gone? Last time that I knew. And like, it's like, I want us to have fun like that.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 55:51Keke Palmer?

  Like just get to the things that like make us happy and how we can support each other while we're dealing with all the things that, you know, just make us mad and crazy.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Well, and it's also like, just women are just the best. Like I know, I know love is real because I've been loved by women. And I'm in love with a man right now currently. So like, trust me when I say the real love.

• 56:09Keke Palmer?

  You're just so beautiful and amazing too, girl. I live for that.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, to be loved truly and in earnest, and I mean this very sincerely, is to be loved by women. Like I, like the warmth that you get from women, loving women. And even, you know, like it's, this is not exclusive to me at all. I'm sure you've had very similar experiences. I've had very negative experiences in certain areas, like when I was in college or when I was working at the NFL with women above me. And it, and even then, like my point being, I have a lot of reasons to believe that women are against me and I could turn against women. But even then I knew that that is because of the patriarchy. You feel like there can only ever be one of us, and I don't think that's true. And I'm not gonna let this build resentment towards other women for me because women are truly like the lifeblood of, of everything in the universe.

• 56:56Keke Palmer?

  I couldn't agree with you more. If I've ever had any problem in, in our, in our feminine coven, it's only been from the idea of there can only be one or this idea.

• 57:05Speaker 01

  And that's influenced by patriarchy.

• 57:07Keke Palmer?

  If that was the case, I'd be getting laid more.

• 57:11Keke Palmer?

  I'm not. You know what I mean?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  So I know it's not true.

• 57:15Keke Palmer?

  So I know, so trust me. I'm just doing my job. I'm just doing my job and I'm gone. You know what I'm saying?

• 57:21Speaker 01

  And I really do love women that dearly and that sincerely. And I think that's why they flock to me in a lot of ways. I think they can tell that I have a lot of deep, deep, deep love for women. And I feel like even like, I've only ever felt this way about female artists too. But like even, you know, you watch, you ever watch someone like Beyonce?

• 57:38Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Or like Rosalia? And then you think to myself, I, I think to myself, I know a higher power has to exist because this woman is created and no man deserves this. That's what I think every time I'm like men, no man deserves. Someone's gonna be lucky enough to have you, but they do not deserve you and I hope they know that.

• 57:54Keke Palmer?

  I will never forget the time that I was in. And I always liked Beyonce, like I feel like I was on the Destiny's Child train later, like was soldier, I'm needed soldier, you know, I came a little bit later. But then I was always like, you know, Beyonce was always a real identity in my life in the background. Even if I didn't know her newest first single.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Same.

• 58:11Keke Palmer?

  But I remember when she was doing that for her first big Sasha Fierce tour. I was in, well, what was one of the things? It was like a fries or Best Buys. I'm up in there and they have them TVs and the spades and everything and it was playing that tour.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:27Keke Palmer?

  When I tell you that I stayed the whole time that my mom was in there shopping, right in the middle watching Beyonce, and all I could think to myself was how could she be so incredible?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I know, for real.

• 58:40Keke Palmer?

  How could she be so thoughtful? What I got from it actually was not just talented, what I thought was she considered the audience.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  For real.

• 58:49Keke Palmer?

  She's so thoughtful in her performance.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  For real.

• 58:51Keke Palmer?

  She spent money on this outfit to look so seamless. The music is also a vibe that is encouraging me as a person. Like it also is lifting me up.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Right, for real.

• 59:01Keke Palmer?

  All I saw was the intentionality.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 59:04Keke Palmer?

  And the attention to detail. And I had nothing but immense respect for it.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Same, same.

• 59:09Keke Palmer?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Me getting chills while you're describing. I do not play about that girl. I do not play about her.

• 59:15Keke Palmer?

  Like you're saying, like some of these women really do just evoke.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 59:19Keke Palmer?

  That kind of response for me.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 59:21Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 59:22Keke Palmer?

  Like I said, Rihanna with the unapologetic, like, come on, man.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  And women are just like, it also too, on a business scale, like the female dollar is the most important dollar. They're the only people who decide what's popular, what trends, what does well. Men don't spend money on [BLEEP]. And men have notoriously bad taste.

• 59:38Keke Palmer?

  But I'm the anti-hero?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  That's why I said, but let's focus on women and what they love.

• 59:41Keke Palmer?

  Love her too.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:43Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, had to bring it in, had to bring that in because she's killing it, you know? All the ladies of every background, I love you all. You were named Time 100 Creators.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:53Keke Palmer?

  How was that? That is a huge accomplishment.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 59:56Keke Palmer?

  The world's most influential digital voices.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:59Keke Palmer?

  I mean, two years in a row.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, that's true, two years in a row.

• 1:00:02Keke Palmer?

  Were you just completely, mm?

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  I know, every, every new like accolade I get like that is always incredible and amazing. And I think it's indicative of like what really I think speaks to people. Like I said, like getting too big to ignore. Like there was a time when that never would have happened for me, being in that magazine. And now it's happened two years in a row, which is incredible. It's amazing.

• 1:00:26Keke Palmer?

  You had your boy, The Rock, on the comment section.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:30Keke Palmer?

  That was insane.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  My son.

• 1:00:31Keke Palmer?

  Please, you interviewed him for Monna. You were so amazing in the interview, like, please tell me about what that experience was. What, you know, you, did you have a moment where you're like, make sure I'm just as bold as I always am? Don't be afraid, go for it. Like, was there a conversation before then? Like, what was the process?

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Oh, like he's, okay, well, my, my brother, The Rock, he's awesome. He keeps calling me sis. I'm like, you're like 20 years older than me. Okay, and sister, more likely. But you know, he's wonderful. I've met him a few times, like, like hosting and seeing him at award shows and everything like that. So getting him on the comment section has been like years in the making. So that was like a perfect timing for him to do it with the live action Moana and everything. And we went out to Hawaii to do it, which was amazing.

• 1:01:12Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, come on, y'all was in.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  The motherland, yeah, the blood, I was like, the Moana on this island is so powerful. So it was amazing. I, I loved him, getting to talk to him, I think on a level that was like very real and very like cultural. Like there was, I, I wanted to bring up culture a lot with him and how important it was to me that he has been continuing to be like one of the only, if not the only, like Samoan person to be as famous as he is and like be able to transcend culture. Like he's been doing it. And I was telling him too, in the interview, like, it's crazy to see you. Like it, it's really [BLEEP] hard being the first. And I just can't imagine being the first, like you have been for 20 something years, like doing it alone and doing your damnedest to get us in every room and open doors for us.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  And it's, you know, like the ripple effect of him is someone like me getting to come up and do stuff like this. So it was incredible. It was very like full circle for me. I've been chasing him for years and like, honestly, I was like, it kind of works out that I'm like the only Samoan person on TikTok that people in America know of. Because you kind of have to come to me. It's like a metaphorical gun to the head, but hey, I'll take it.

• 1:02:18Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. I love it, I love that and it's so true. He's always been so embracing of his culture, which is why your black side has to come on, baby. Let's kick your [BLEEP].

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:02:27Keke Palmer?

  Because I know you're no black, Duane. Ain't nobody named Duane not black. So get your ass over here. You did your Samoan side?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:36Keke Palmer?

  Now do your black side.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  There you go, there you go, there you go.

• 1:02:37Keke Palmer?

  I'll let you, girl.

• 1:02:39Keke Palmer?

  We gotta talk about Pele. Because I think it's so like, again, we were talking about all the kinds of things you talk about and you're just being, honestly, just sharing your truth. People think that they can make judgments about your lifestyle.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:02:49Keke Palmer?

  Now, Pele, you've known since you were a kid.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  In high school.

• 1:02:52Keke Palmer?

  In high school. And how did y'all get back into y'all love story? Tell as little as much as you want.

• 1:02:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:57Keke Palmer?

  I'm big about protecting people's privacy in their love life.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Oh, I appreciate that, thank you. Yeah, we met in high school, not high school sweethearts. I do say that all the time. We had a real enemies to lovers arc.

• 1:03:07Keke Palmer?

  Period. We love it. That's like all the TV shows.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:10Keke Palmer?

  To bring up Harvey or, you know?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's like one of those where he like, he has been handsome and athletic his whole life.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  And I've been handsome and athletic my whole life as well. Just, you know, for the cameras, just for the note, me too. But he was very popular in high school and like did not struggle for female attention, obviously. He's looked like that his whole life, if you can believe it. So I think with me.

• 1:03:35Keke Palmer?

  Gotta see his ass.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's, he's very good looking. He's a very good looking man and I'm not saying that to gas him, trust me, I would say otherwise if so.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  But yeah, we met in high school. He actually asked me to prom and I said no. And then I paid dearly for that later in the year. But, and I think we reconnected after college. Because like we were both dating other people, like, you know, kind of sampling in college and stuff.

• 1:04:01Keke Palmer?

  Come on, sample a little taste.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Well, me more than him, I'm sure. But yeah, so we, we were kind of like living our own lives. And then we were still friends and would get like lunch every now and then, like coworkers. It was nothing ever romantic. And then I stopped talking to him because I got annoyed about something that I still to this day can't remember. And I think that's even funnier.

• 1:04:20Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because I'm like, it wasn't real.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Because I'm gonna hold the grudge, I just don't remember what started it. I do know I'm mad at you though, I know that much. So I was, I was ignoring him. And then he, I moved back home after I graduated from school. And then he was like, he had been consistently hitting me up, be like, hey, like, are you home now? Like, we should get dinner or something, or we should get lunch. And I was like, man, [BLEEP] this guy. Like, I was so annoyed, I was like holding the anger, I was so irritated. And then I remember I told my mom, I was like, he's hitting me up again. And my mom was like, well, he seems sorry. Because like one of the last things he sent me before I actually.

• 1:04:52Keke Palmer?

  Why are moms so sweet? Like, girl, stop. That's why your ass married. Talk about some, my mom, honey.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  Okay, miss, I've been together for 30 years.

• 1:05:00Keke Palmer?

  Seriously?

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  You don't know anything. Yeah, so.

• 1:05:03Keke Palmer?

  My mom. He loves you.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  And my mom was like, well, you know, like, why don't you go to lunch or something first? And then if he still sucks, at least you got a free meal. And I was like, you know what?

• 1:05:15Keke Palmer?

  Love to eat.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  That's why they pay the big bucks around here. So I went and then, joke's on me, he got me. Like nine years later, here we are. So that's when we kind of started dating.

• 1:05:25Keke Palmer?

  Nine years later?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we were.

• 1:05:26Keke Palmer?

  Y'all locked in.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, girl.

• 1:05:28Keke Palmer?

  Y'all are pretty much married already, by the way. The next year, you don't even need the wedding.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, that's kind of why I think even like online, when I announced I got engaged two years ago, like we got engaged after dating for seven years. So a lot of people were like, I mean, and by people, I mean men who hate me. They were saying like, he's never gonna, never gonna [BLEEP] propose, which I'm like, timelines are so not real. Like, I don't want to marry someone after a year. You're tripping. I have sweaters I wore a year ago that I'm like, what the hell was I thinking when I bought this thing? You think I'm gonna commit to a man for the rest of my life if I don't know?

• 1:05:59Keke Palmer?

  And also, like, what is this concept around outcomes in dating? I think it's really, really bad because.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:06:06Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes you just have your time and you have your time.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Right, I agree.

• 1:06:09Keke Palmer?

  Marriage isn't for everybody. And when it is for you, you will know.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:06:13Keke Palmer?

  And so I totally agree with you on that.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think that's indicative of my parents too. Like they, my parents did not feel the need to rush and get married. And for me, I'm like, I want to live together. I want to experience life together, like go through things together, like, because it's really awesome to be a great partner when your life is awesome. But when you go through loss, or you go through tragedy, or you go through hardship, like how do you guys treat each other? How do you guys come back to each other? And I think that's why I was like never in a rush. I was like, I want to experience life with you and like together before I commit myself to someone for the rest of my life, like. And so I think seven years, it was like the perfect timing. I didn't, we didn't even talk about getting engaged that year. I think we both just kind of knew. And then he did a great job, I'd say.

• 1:06:56Keke Palmer?

  It's gorgeous.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's gorgeous.

• 1:06:57Keke Palmer?

  Absolutely gorgeous. I had to learn to be cool with the vibes because my parents were super traditional on the nose.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:03Keke Palmer?

  Met, dated for a year, got married the next year, been married. And so I kind of, you know, grew up, I grew up in Illinois, it's very traditional, midwestern, all-American, black folk vibe.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Keke Palmer?

  And so I had an idea of how things would be, but I've always just been my own, beaten to my own drum. So understanding that things will, first of all, career, you know, friendships, all those things will be different for me. With something that I really was like, and actually, it should be different for me. Because I don't live the same lifestyle as my parents.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Right, that's true. Yeah, you're experiencing something different.

• 1:07:33Keke Palmer?

  I'm experiencing something totally different, so, love that. Okay, I have to say goodbye to you soon. But before I go, I want to play a game with you because I played one with all of my guests.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  Yay.

• 1:07:44Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so you obviously have great amazing opinions and you're not afraid to tell it like it is. So I'm gonna throw out a few topics and I just want your hottest takes.

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Okay, cool.

• 1:07:52Keke Palmer?

  Okay, first one. What's one dating trend you hope disappears forever?

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  One dating trend? Are they dating in trends now?

• 1:08:00Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, isn't that crazy? Dating trends, that's crazy. I don't even know if it's true.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Honestly.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  I would say, I would say, um, and I'll factor TikTok. I would say like going on the internet and recapping your date, like as soon as you get home. Like, I think that's fine, but like, th- those are things like for the group chat, like let it,

• 1:08:22Keke Palmer?

  It has to be a date. I was about to say, if it's terrible, then cool.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  And it's funny, then tell it.

• 1:08:26Keke Palmer?

  But the problem is, group chat and social media wise, let him cook, or let her cook, or let them cook.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Let it sit for a bit.

• 1:08:32Keke Palmer?

  Like first day, let them cook.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:35Keke Palmer?

  Cause you might like think about it back on and be like, honestly, that wasn't that bad.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's like vlogging the entire thing.

• 1:08:41Keke Palmer?

  People in the comments, I don't really like that they.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. That's why, and it's like inviting opinion, and I think that can also

• 1:08:47Keke Palmer?

  That can be dangerous.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Inform your opinion, and I think there's like a, a real like, especially with COVID kids, I feel like there's a huge disconnect in dating. And I feel like it, everybody, also I would say too, to get rid of this idea that heartbreak is not gonna happen.

• 1:09:02Keke Palmer?

  Oh.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  And you can avoid it. Like, it's, it's gonna happen, it's natural.

• 1:09:06Keke Palmer?

  If you, you should have known by now.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:08Keke Palmer?

  I'm not a psychic.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Well, and if I could have seen myself being devastated, don't you think I would have stopped it?

• 1:09:13Keke Palmer?

  Like, who signs up for that? Who says who can't wait to get screwed over?

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  And you're talking to two Virgos who are psychic. So like,

• 1:09:20Keke Palmer?

  When I tell you.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. If I'm telling you I couldn't see it, then chances are no one could. And I think, I think it's like to make peace with that, so that you can feel brave and continuing to date. I would love for them to get rid of that, yeah. I would love for them to get rid of that. Creating anxiety, I think, a lot about it, so.

• 1:09:35Keke Palmer?

  Um, okay, what, what's one piece of relationship advice people need to stop giving?

• 1:09:42Speaker 01

  People need to stop giving. I would say, um,

• 1:09:45Keke Palmer?

  You kinda said it, one, a good one in this, the answer previous of just like, you know, everything's gonna be, there're not gonna be any weird moments or,

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I would say like that you're, you're not gonna have, like, the right person you would never argue with. That's not true.

• 1:10:01Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Like, your, your, your right person, like, you will argue with them, you will have fights, you will have conflict, that's natural.

• 1:10:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  Cause that's just human nature, that's just coexisting with another person, you naturally are gonna bristle, but that doesn't mean,

• 1:10:15Keke Palmer?

  I love your words, come on, bristle. Good vocabulary.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  That doesn't mean that, though, that you're devastated, like, it's, it's doomed beyond belief, um, you're gonna have conflict even with the right person. But it's what kind of conflict and in what way. I wish women would stop advising other women to be so forgiving of really terrible things.

• 1:10:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  Because people make, um, oh, and also I would say that, uh, calling cheating a mistake, um, it's a choice, not a mistake. Cheating is a choice, uh, whether or not you regret it is specific to the person, but cheating is a choice, that is a choice that an adult is making. So like, if they cheat, it's because they wanted to, it's not because it just happened.

• 1:10:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  They wanted to, and so they did. So you should not be with cheaters.

• 1:10:55Keke Palmer?

  And stand by what you did, cause I ain't the police. You know, that's my,

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  I'm not a cop, I'm not a cop.

• 1:11:01Keke Palmer?

  That's my big thing with anything in relationships, like, tell me the truth.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:11:05Keke Palmer?

  Cause what if I said, why didn't you invite me?

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Now you're looking there, now you're standing there looking dumb.

• 1:11:10Keke Palmer?

  Right, you never know, you never know. Okay, what is the most delusional thing Love Island has convinced people is romantic, and what's one dating rule from the show that you'd keep in real life?

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  Oh my god, from Love Island, that godforsaken show. Oh, Jesus Christ.

• 1:11:25Keke Palmer?

  I be scared to talk about it.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  They're lucky, they're lucky I didn't go over there and liberate those women, I would have unionized them, it would have looked like Yellowjackets at the end.

• 1:11:33Keke Palmer?

  Girl, that show is fierce.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's where, that's where women, when they're naked and covered in blood and worshiping under the moon, that's what they would have been doing if I was on that island.

• 1:11:40Keke Palmer?

  Come on, we're just gonna sit in the line, our periods.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Trust and believe, they would have been naked dancing under a moon, and there would be no men alive, I promise you that. If I was there, that's what I would have done. Um, I, I think like the worst trend out of that is, um, I guess it's like the, this is so stupid and removed, but it's like,

• 1:11:56Keke Palmer?

  And removed.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  It's like being like, uh, chosen, I guess, like, it, it, I would say in the last couple of seasons especially, it's been very like, oh, he chose me.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  That makes you feel like a werewolf, makes you wanna turn into a werewolf.

• 1:12:12Keke Palmer?

  No, seriously, an idea that because he didn't is so crazy and so horrible.

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:12:19Keke Palmer?

  Maybe he got badass taste.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:12:22Keke Palmer?

  Like, why, why we, again, this goes back to what you were saying before, like, who cares? And I get, there's only a few men on the island.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Keke Palmer?

  But send me home.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Keke Palmer?

  Send me home, I don't care about, why you wanna say somewhere?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Give me my weed pen and I'm getting on the boat.

• 1:12:34Keke Palmer?

  There ain't no fine men.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I'm leaving.

• 1:12:36Keke Palmer?

  The one I thought, the one I felt.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Keke Palmer?

  We ain't gonna work together and win the show?

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, that's why I was like, it should, if we're not locking in as like accomplices,

• 1:12:46Keke Palmer?

  Right.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  Then send me home.

• 1:12:47Keke Palmer?

  If we can't at least be coworkers or something, then?

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:50Keke Palmer?

  Take me back.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so I was like, send me home, it's okay. Vote me off, just vote, just vote.

• 1:12:55Keke Palmer?

  Literally.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  Send me home.

• 1:12:56Keke Palmer?

  Any dating things that you did like on there?

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  That I did like?

• 1:13:00Keke Palmer?

  Kisses too much.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  I know, oh my god.

• 1:13:02Keke Palmer?

  And I love kissing, but come on now.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  But there was a lot of it.

• 1:13:05Keke Palmer?

  With hot dog juice in our mouth and all this type of stuff, they got too much food going on with it.

• 1:13:08Speaker 01

  Girl, they have that and my belly out the whole time. I'm in a two-piece 24/7. I don't get to wear my 3XT not once, they wouldn't let me if I went on there.

• 1:13:17Keke Palmer?

  And it's bad news for wigs, or anything that like, like, or, you know, just your hair, if you got curly hair.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true.

• 1:13:24Keke Palmer?

  Everybody gotta be like,

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  That humidity.

• 1:13:26Keke Palmer?

  It's like, I gotta just be bald headed up over there.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say that I did like out of it, um, I love when the men are really terrible, and then women online get together and make some of the funniest content I've ever seen. Like, when women are making memes and stuff of it, it's the funniest thing in the world to me.

• 1:13:44Keke Palmer?

  Very funny.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  I think that's always, cause women are hilarious, so like, I, I love that that's come out of it.

• 1:13:49Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  That, like, especially when they link up, but like, I saw one clip where this guy said like, I choose her because she puts me above herself all the time.

• 1:13:58Keke Palmer?

  I know what you're talking about, and I was trying hard not to mention any names, cause I don't want nobody dogpawed, and I hate how everybody get dragged, and I don't want nobody coming out the villa needing to get mental health. So please, don't drag nobody, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  When I saw that clip, uh,

• 1:14:12Keke Palmer?

  Would be devastated if somebody gave me that compliment.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  If I was, I'm sitting at the fire pit, like, and, and he says, I'm picking her, cause she puts me above herself, no, I don't, no, I don't.

• 1:14:21Keke Palmer?

  The compliment is about, you're complimenting me because I'm centering you, but that's the compliment for me?

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Oh my god, the way I would be like, uh, uh, no.

• 1:14:30Keke Palmer?

  And that's how she died.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's me telling Ariana, I'll be honest, Ariana, not feeling great. I didn't love that speech, I feel like he could have said other things about me, but no worries, hey, no worries.

• 1:14:40Keke Palmer?

  No, for real, for real. Okay, okay, wait a minute, here we go. What is one green flag people don't appreciate enough?

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:14:48Keke Palmer?

  I'm excited to hear what you're gonna say, oh my gosh, babe, I love it.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  A green flag that is not appreciated enough.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Hmm, I'm trying to think, I'm like, what do men do that's like, awesome? I'm only thinking about my man, obviously, um,

• 1:15:05Keke Palmer?

  Well, share.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  I would say if they have, um, like, special interests or in- interests that are like, I guess, like, so specific to them. So like, I, I think that's something that's really sweet, and like, if fostered can be really beautiful, so like, for example, when you look at my man, like, you're, like, you would have an idea of what you think he's like, obviously, just based off perception, but like, my man loves animals, like, loves, loves, loves animals, but more specifically, he loves like sea creatures, and like bugs, which is just so interesting, and like, why?

• 1:15:38Keke Palmer?

  Take me into your world.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, asking him a lot about animals, and like, watching him explain to me, like, the behaviors and habitats of animals, or like, watching animal documentaries together. I think that's, those are green flags that are really, really sweet, and I think a lot of really good men have interests that span things, and I guess like, things that are not based in like masculinity.

• 1:16:01Keke Palmer?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  So like, if you like sports, boring, right, like, it's like music, what kind, like, is it all like, normal, like, guy, guy, like, is it like that? Or is it something so interesting and so like, unique, I've never known someone, like, I've never known someone to love bugs the way that he loves bugs? And like, I mean that so sincerely, he knows so much about bugs, and, and I, it's so weird. And like, for his like, 31st birthday, I did this like safari park thing, so we like, went to the San Diego Safari Park, shouts out, love them. And like, we did like a whole tour, and I mean, I have never seen him like, light up like that, cause he got to learn so much about animals. And I think, like, that is so cute and so sweet, and I think those are really green flags. I think when you find something that they really love, and it's just something they've just always loved and kinda looked into themselves, I think that's really sweet.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  And it's a good indicator of like, a good man, like, a man who loves something purely for the love of the game, doesn't, is not embarrassed about it, talks about it, I think that's a really cool green flag.

• 1:16:57Keke Palmer?

  I love Peely, I don't even know him.

• 1:17:00Keke Palmer?

  Okay, this is a good last one, I think. Wait a minute, there's two here. I'll give you the choice.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:08Keke Palmer?

  Okay, one is, which celebrity do you think is the internet's most misunderstood person? That's one.

• 1:17:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:17:15Keke Palmer?

  The other one is, what's something women are constantly told they should care about that actually doesn't matter?

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  Ooh. Well, I can answer, I'll answer the second one first, because that's easy. Um, well, your body looks like. Yeah, like, that's something that women are constantly beat over the head with about how important it is. It's really not. And it's like, and it doesn't, and with the right man, like, it never matters. Like, with the right man, it never matters.

• 1:17:41Keke Palmer?

  And I get when it matters to you.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:43Keke Palmer?

  You know, matters to your own self. But I love what you're saying, where it's like, you know, that's different than feeling like it's going to impede on your ability to have what you want.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, it's almost like, um, I've talked about before, like, my style really expanded and grew once I unpacked my internalized fat phobia. Because like, there's this like, hidden thing in your head constantly for women, where you're like, I, oh, I look fat in this, or I, oh, I look big in this, or this makes me look big. And I feel like, once I let go of that, which I didn't even realize I was consciously doing, um, my style just finally got there, like, I found the style that I really liked, because I wasn't so concerned with fatness, because it doesn't matter, ultimately. So I would say, like, with women, it's how your body looks, and any, any season of your life, like, no matter what, it really does not matter at all. It's, we're just convinced to think it does.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  Um, and then, most misunderstood celebrity, I've met quite a few of them. Trying to think. It would be a tie, I think, between The Rock and Chapel.

• 1:18:44Keke Palmer?

  And why you think The Rock misunderstood? I feel like everybody love him down.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  They do love him down, but I think there's also...

• 1:18:49Keke Palmer?

  He should be hated.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  More. Um, no, I think, I think, I think, like, the perception of him is very, like, you know, he's just this huge, like, magnanimous person, which he is, like, that is true. Um, but he cares very deeply about how people see him. He cares a lot about how he's perceived in terms of being a kind person and being a thoughtful person. He cares a lot about that, and, and I don't think that's ever forefronted for him. It's always like, you know, he's just big and famous, and, and huge and strong, and whatever.

• 1:19:19Keke Palmer?

  He's a symbol.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, he's, he's like a figment of people's imagination. Um, but he's a very real person, and he's a dad, and he's a husband, and he's, he's a son, like, he's, he's many, many things, I think, that are not thought of first, when you think of him. And then with Chapel, yeah, she's also someone who I think is perceived to be this impervious, strong.

• 1:19:40Keke Palmer?

  Now, what's impervious?

• 1:19:41Speaker 01

  Impervious, just like, indestructible. Like, she's just so, she's so unaffected by a lot of things, which is, I think, true to an extent. Um, but she is very shy and very reserved.

• 1:19:51Keke Palmer?

  She gave me theater kid.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is, and she's very, and she's sweet, and she's nervous, and she's like, you know, she loves nature, and she loves going outside, and she loves being normal. And so I think, like, the way that they perceive and talk about her is also so wrong, and like, so, and ultimately mean, I think that's a lot of time, I think that about The Rock too. I feel like some, the way people talk about them so freely and openly is very mean. It can be very mean, and, and, and it matters to a good person. And I've said this before now, and you know this too, especially, I'm sure, to get to like, a certain level of fame and notoriety, I've said before, it's either the best person you've ever met, or the worst person you've ever met in your entire life. Like, all celebrities are made, they're either one or the other.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  And I think it's because the, only the truest and purest of heart will survive, right? To some extent, or the most evil people in the world, because they don't care about anybody. And so I think that's why, like, the two of them feel like, very similar in that to me, where they're like, really, really genuinely good people, that have just been dealt an unbelievable and sometimes unfortunate hand, so.

• 1:20:59Keke Palmer?

  I love talking pop culture with you.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:21:01Keke Palmer?

  I love talking you with you. I'm just so glad you came on the podcast.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you had me. You are a hoot and a holler, and I do have to say, before we leave, really quick, back in the day, when I was big on TikTok, and I, I used to really [BLEEP] people up on Twitter. I just have to tell you, I told myself I would tell you this, if I ever, like, got to sit and chat with you.

• 1:21:18Keke Palmer?

  I'm nervous.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  No, but like, there was a time where they were being, someone was being mean about you on Twitter. When I tell you, bitch, I was going to town and bat for you, I'm not kidding, I have never seen hate like that in my life, and I was fighting on the front lines for you, girl.

• 1:21:34Keke Palmer?

  They be having me in a hell of a...

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  And I literally was like, I remember people going, wow, that's so funny, Drew's just offending Keke Palmer for no reason. I just saw that because I was getting mad.

• 1:21:44Keke Palmer?

  Because you see my heart.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  Yes, because I was getting mad, watching it, and I was like, I can't...

• 1:21:47Keke Palmer?

  We not perfect, but we try.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  No, listen, listen.

• 1:21:49Keke Palmer?

  Let us live, let me cook.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  You just, you wear so many hats, and I just have to say, like, you are an icon to me in many ways. But I do genuinely, I think you're incredible, and I think you're amazing, and I do think you are one of a kind, bitch. And so I was like, I am gonna, I'm going to protect that precious jewel with my life, listen.

• 1:22:09Keke Palmer?

  Real recognize real, and I really mean that.

• 1:22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just had to tell you that, because I was like, when I was on there, I was going to bat for you, bitch.

• 1:22:15Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I love you.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Because I knew, because I knew you were amazing, and I was right. Because I'm psychic, because we're virgins.

• 1:22:21Keke Palmer?

  Because we're virgins, period. Thank you so much.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. What an honor. Yes, hug.

• 1:22:32Keke Palmer?

  This conversation reminded me that so many of us spend our lives following rules we never choose. I love how Drew's shown people that it's okay to question those rules, to trust yourself, and to create a life that's true to who you are. And in that process, she's built a community where women lift each other up, instead of competing with one another. Thank you so much, Drew, for being here, and for reminding us that when we question the rules we've been given and trust our own voice, we don't just change our lives, we make it easier for other people to do the same. Like that Marion Williamson quote. Yeah. I like that.