The Rules, the Shade, and the Truth About the Playboy Fantasy with Holly Madison

What really went down behind the gates of the Playboy Mansion? Author, advocate, podcaster, producer—and former Playboy Bunny—Holly Madison is here to expose the truth behind the fantasy, and baby, she’s not holdin’ back. We’re talking beauty, power, survival, and that wild ride from girlfriend to boss. Holly gets honest about the mansion’s unspoken rules, the group dynamics (yep, the shade was real), and why walking away from Hef wasn’t the end—it was the beginning. From reality TV to real-life healing, she opens up about finding her voice, setting boundaries, and finally claiming her freedom. Plus, we get into her hit true crime series, and how getting diagnosed with autism helped her see her story in a whole new light. Get the Saks designer brands you love, delivered just like that. New on Amazon. http://amazon.com/saks See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Keke Palmer?

  This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb. Y'all ready to celebrate independence in style? Get yourself a guest favorite spot and make your summer memories in one of the most loved homes on Airbnb. Now, let's roll.

• 0:19Keke Palmer?

  Okay, y'all, today's guest is someone who flipped the fantasy on its head. You think you know Holly Madison from the glitz, the Playboy parties, the reality shows, but baby, that's only the surface. Holly has been telling the real story, the one about power, performance, and what happens when you stop pretending everything's perfect. She's a bestselling author, a mama, a survivor, and now, an advocate for using her voice to expose the truth behind the fantasy and what it cost her. And let me tell you, she does not hold back. Baby, this is Keke Palmer, and baby, this is Holly Madison.

• 1:21Keke Palmer?

  How are you? You look so fabulous.

• 1:23Speaker 01

  Thank you, so do you.

• 1:24Keke Palmer?

  Thank you for coming to the show.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  Thank you, I wore the worst shoes for a walkout.

• 1:28Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, but they're so cute.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  Thank you, I've had them forever, but I feel like they're, they just like stretched out a little bit, so I've been like bracing myself walking.

• 1:35Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh, yeah, when you gotta run in the two big heels.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37Keke Palmer?

  We've all been there. How you doing? How have you been?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Great, how are you?

• 1:42Keke Palmer?

  I'm good, I'm good. I'm glad to be doing more of the podcast. You know, we had to take a little break because I'd be having like 12 jobs.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47Keke Palmer?

  But I'm glad to be here to be talking with you. Now, I think the fun thing when I was getting ready for this interview is so many people have many different ideas about you. I mean, there's Holly Madison, and then there's Holly, Holly Sue Cullen. That's her full, real name. And you were born in Oregon, lived in Alaska, back to Oregon. So, when you think about who people think of you and who that girl is, what would you say the biggest difference is?

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Um, I think people, sometimes people have an idea of me that's really one dimensional, just like a Playboy bunny who's always in pink or something like that. And I have a lot more, you know, a wider variety of interests and things like that. But I think like my core following, they know me, so I don't really feel the struggle I used to feel of like, I want to be understood as much anymore, so.

• 2:29Keke Palmer?

  I think there's also this idea too, you know, when you get to be a Playboy bunny or do anything that's based off your beauty, the idea is that you've been beautiful your whole life or that you felt beautiful your whole life. Would you say that was your experience, like, or that you felt people thought you were beautiful? Did you feel you were beautiful?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  I don't think so. I feel like beauty is more something that's affected with me. I'm more made myself look this way and it's kind of like, you know, it got me where I wanted to go and it's kind of a hobby now. It's just, you know, what I like to do to make myself feel good. But it is what it is, you know, it only goes so far.

• 3:02Keke Palmer?

  At what age did you discover beauty as currency?

• 3:06Speaker 01

  I don't know what age I discovered it as currency, really. I mean, maybe in high school, you notice that like you're gonna, you know, pop off on the cheerleading team a little bit more if you look the part or whatever. But when I was a little kid, I was given this set of Marilyn Monroe paper dolls when I was like in fourth grade.

• 3:22Keke Palmer?

  Come on, paper dolls. I used to love the paper dolls.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And this paper doll book, it had a whole bio, her whole life story on the back, about her mysterious death and everything, and all the outfits were from her movies. And I was just fascinated with her story and her look and her clothes. So I think that really started like my love affair with everything, you know, cosmetic and fashion.

• 3:41Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. It's funny, it makes me think about Dolly Parton. I worked with her once and I was just like, I mean, we would be in rehearsals, just not even on camera, and she would be perfect at all times. And I'm like, Dolly, like, how do you do that? I just love you so much. And she was like, well, darling, one day I said, that's who I want to be, and I just did it. And I'm like, damn. But it's so true. I think sometimes we look at it superficially, but it does also make you feel good, when you know that you show up and you're doing your best. And then it's interesting because people respond to it differently. I mean, you moved to LA to college, you worked at Hooters as a Hawaiian Tropic model to pay for your tuition. So beauty, I mean, at that point, you knew it could be a way to help you actually succeed. What was that like?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. Well, for me, what it turned into was trying to do too many different things at once. It was me trying to get good grades, to keep my scholarship, but also trying to work to pay the bills and trying to audition and trying to look good and all the things.

• 4:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  So it was too much, but it was really important to me. And that's what I really wanted, was to like have the substance and the schooling, but also do the fun stuff and, you know, live that out, so.

• 4:44Keke Palmer?

  What do you think the most challenging thing was about tying your career to the way you looked? I'm sure it might have changed over time, you know.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think more than anything, it was probably more of a distraction for me, always chasing that look and maybe not focusing on more of the substance that I could have, maybe, if I'm really thinking about it. I've never really thought about that before. That's an interesting question.

• 5:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, because I mean, it doesn't, I mean, you look, I mean, so many people have done it and obviously still have so much more to back them up, you know what I mean? But at the same time, it does, what you said, sometimes it can make people look at things one dimensionally. It's like a double edged sword.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think when you get caught up like I did and just chasing an aesthetic and trying to look perfect and trying to like, please a certain person, you know, you're just chasing this thing that's never ending. You're never happy with it. So it turns into a real waste of time after a while.

• 5:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and I'm sure so much of that was obviously, um, I don't know if it was exasperated or if it would be like a more emphasized, I'd say, when working in the Playboy Mansion at 21.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 5:43Keke Palmer?

  That entry point to that life. I want to know about your first experiences. Like, how did you hear about it? How did you meet Hef? Like, what was happening at 21 year old Holly at that point?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Well, I knew about Playboy just because there were so many women who had been playmates and were famous in the 90s, like Anna Nicole Smith or Pamela Anderson. Yeah, I love her. And, you know, so I wanted, you know, to be in the magazine and I got invited to a Playboy party, which back in 2000 was like the cool party to go to, like the hard to get into party. So I was working as a Hawaiian Tropic model at an event and Hef's doctor came and said, I want to invite all these girls to the next party. So I was super excited. Yeah.

• 6:18Keke Palmer?

  What type of thing they had turned up?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Well, it's funny you say it. There's some rumors, but I mean, I can't speak on that, but.

• 6:24Keke Palmer?

  The doctors checking out the clients?

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:29Keke Palmer?

  So what was your first impression of Hef? And how old was he at that time? I know you were 21. How old was he?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  He was like a 75 or something like that, 76. Yeah, but I was in awe of him. You know, I thought he was this amazing person who had created so much and done so much. And you go to these parties and I got invited also to like the pool parties on Sundays, which were a lot smaller and it was just like his closest friends. Everybody there is so in awe of him. And, you know, I just thought he seemed like such a gentleman and so interesting. So, you know, I fell for him right away.

• 7:00Keke Palmer?

  What did you feel like, looking back or maybe even then, what was the vetting process? Like, obviously the doctor introduced you, you went to that first party. How many parties or how many events did you see him at till it became like, I'm his girlfriend now?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Quite a few, and I wouldn't have any real deep interactions with him. It would just be like, oh, hi, how are you? And you know, it's somebody you would see like every weekend, just briefly. But, you know, I was young and I kind of got the impression that I was getting to know him a little bit. And, you know, of course, when it's a big, powerful person you look up to, you start to only want to see the good things, you know? So it was, it was a handful of times, but, you know.

• 7:36Keke Palmer?

  And so when he said, hey, I want you to be my girlfriend, like, did he say that? Did someone come to you and say that? Like, how did that even go down?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Well, I was invited to go out with him and the girls one night. They would go out to clubs a couple of times a week and he had multiple girlfriends at the time. And I knew what that meant. And even though I really liked him and the brand and everything, I wasn't like into doing that. Until one day, I didn't have anywhere to live. So I was like, I should give this, I should give this a try.

• 8:00Keke Palmer?

  Yo, that is so real. I live for the realness. Because I mean, especially at 21, it's like, he got everything. You know what I mean? He's just a couple of girls, some of them cute. Why not? We all a family. You know, I could see how that can easily, especially at 21. When I think about me at 21 and what I thought was made sense, it's like, anything went, you know? Because you're still kind of a kid a little bit.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's something that had been sitting in the back of my mind for a while. And this was happening in my life. And I was up there at a pool party and one of the, you know, bartenders said, oh, one of the girlfriends just moved out. There's a new spot. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna do this crazy.

• 8:35Keke Palmer?

  I love the show, do this crazy. Now, at that time, did you think about this is love or did you just think it's survival?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I knew, well, it was both. I knew I really liked him in the beginning. I wouldn't say love because I didn't know him that well. But it turned into that quite quickly. You know, we bonded really quickly. You know, I was always the one who was like by his side for all the dinners and all the movies and things like that. So I didn't like the fact that there were like multiple partners in the relationship for so long. But other than that, you know, I felt at the time, and obviously, you know, I was very young and I wouldn't feel this way now. But, you know, I felt very much in love for sure.

• 9:11Keke Palmer?

  Wow, so let's talk about the unspoken rules of the mansion. Because I've heard a lot of different things with you guys having to go out.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  I still hear different things these days. There's still stuff going on.

• 9:21Keke Palmer?

  You guys having to sleep together, you having to upkeep a certain look. Like, so what's real, what's true? What are the main points that you feel like you experienced in that, you know, relationship?

• 9:31Speaker 01

  You know, a lot of it's tricky because like you said, a lot of it was unspoken. Like, you would move in and I would think, you know, like, you know, when you're like 19 to 22, like, you think you're a badass and you understand everything.

• 9:42Keke Palmer?

  Yes, you really think that.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I thought from like the outside looking in, going to these parties and kind of seeing him interact with his girlfriends here and there. Like, I thought I knew what it was gonna be like. I thought I knew the whole drill. But I moved in and then I realized like, I don't know what the schedule of this place is. Like, I knew they had a curfew, like they had to be.

• 9:58Keke Palmer?

  A curfew?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, they had to be in at nine o'clock. Which at that time, even though that's weird and people, I always get the weirdest looks and I tell people that. I was like, when I moved in, I was like, well, I'm not gonna be here very long. The girls never last very long here and, you know, I'm just gonna enjoy this for what it is. I'm trying to get like.

• 10:12Keke Palmer?

  And the house was nice, I'm sure.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I was like trying to get a leg up in the world and, you know, whatever. I wasn't trying to like, whatever. So that wasn't even the weirdest thing to me at the time. But then you get into little things like, okay, well, this is the schedule and this is how you're supposed to act. Or he'll freak out. Or I thought, I thought it would be fine for me to have like a day job during the day. Found out that wasn't the case. So it was a lot of stumbling around my first six months to a year, just trying to like not get in trouble and.

• 10:36Keke Palmer?

  Who came and told you that? Like, who, who was the person that was saying, hey, no job?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, him. Yeah, that turned into a fight, but, and, you know, it was drama. And he said he was jealous of the job and all this stupid stuff. But nobody tells you because like you move in and like the other women, like, they seem like they're supportive of you to the point, but they kind of don't want to help anybody else out either. So you're just kind of like walking around in the dark, so to speak.

• 11:00Keke Palmer?

  So what's a day in the life? You get up in the morning, you know, you say, hey, babe. Or don't, you know, like, do you guys all get to see him at the same time? You know, then do you get to have activities? Like, I bet grooming is is something that you had to do.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. There was a lot of time spent at the salon, especially because we were all bleaching our hair, had to get our roots done. But, you know, I would wake up usually earlier than him and we had the days free to do what we want, as long as we weren't out with other guys or, you know, working, apparently. And I, and I, you know, I was finding ways to fill the time over the years. Like, I started taking classes again at UCLA and started working at the Playboy studio eventually, after being there for a couple of years. So I produced the Playmate shoots and I kept myself busy, for sure.

• 11:43Keke Palmer?

  And obviously, you got paid. They, he paid you, or no?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Well, you would get like a clothing allowance of like a thousand dollars a week. And I tried to save as much of that as I could. Like, I tried to be as slick about it as I could and save. And after, you know, a few years there, I was putting down payments on my first investment properties and going to school for real estate investment. So I definitely was conscientious of, you know, this probably isn't going to last forever.

• 12:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. What did your parents think?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  They didn't know what was going on for a long time. Like, when I finally admitted to them I was living there, I think they thought it was kind of like some sort of modeling thing. And my dad came down to visit and I gave him a tour of the house during the day and, like, Heff was busy in the office. And he goes, oh, so does Heff actually live here? And I'm like, yeah.

• 12:28Keke Palmer?

  And what did he say?

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I, he didn't ask any more questions than that. I just don't think they thought of it as what it was. And it wasn't something I would have felt comfortable, like, confiding in anybody. It was something that I was, felt very confused about the whole relationship and didn't really feel there was anyone I could confide in, until my friend Bridget moved into the house a couple of years later. And we've been close friends ever since. We do a podcast together now. But she was really the only person I confided in for so long.

• 12:54Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. And probably because you're trying to process, I'm sure there's probably still so much stuff now that you're processing, like, oh, my gosh, you know, was this coercion? Or was this, because, and I mean, in your book, Down the Rabbit Hole, you're open about the group sex in the mansion and how you hated it. I mean, when you think about that in the moment, what did you think was true? And then now, you know, with the, you know, obviously hindsight's 2020, what do you really view as what was going down?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Well, I knew I was miserable at the time. It didn't take much longer after moving in before I realized I was miserable. But at the time, you know, I blamed it on the other women. And there were some people there who weren't angels. But the way that whole situation was set up and manipulated, I always felt like it was the other women out to get me and them causing problems. And there was some of that going on for sure. But it wasn't until the relationship was almost over that I realized he was, you know, pulling the strings there and really pitting people against each other and things like that.

• 13:46Keke Palmer?

  What you mean? He was actually, how did you find that out? Like, was he kind of like shady boots? Like, what was he?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  100% shady boots.

• 13:53Keke Palmer?

  At 70?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was why it was so hard for me to process. Because I just remember being so young at the time and, you know, I didn't have any concept of duality. I thought if you were old, you must be mature. Right?

• 14:05Keke Palmer?

  I know. No, seriously, I mean, you would assume that a senior would have some sense about him. But damn, he's out there being messy with the girls?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  100%.

• 14:14Keke Palmer?

  That's crazy. Very scandalous. So, I mean, how do you make sense of consent now? Because, or I'll even ask this. Before then, what was your idea of consent? And then after that experience, what do you think? Like, how did you? Because I'm sure it disrupted your idea of consent. So like, how did, what do you think of it now?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't think about it much at all before then. I think, you know, we're thinking so much more into it in detail these days, you know?

• 14:40Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  And how you need to speak up for yourself and everything. Because, yeah, lines get blurred, definitely. And I think people make a lot of assumptions on both sides.

• 14:49Keke Palmer?

  I mean, especially in a situation where the power dynamics are so severe. I mean, you think about somebody like Hef. How did he control the room? You know, was there a way that he would go about it that you look back and say, oh, that was manipulation? Or this was him keeping us in our place?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a lot of, you know, comparing girls or making like negative comments to you, you know, in front of other people. Or telling me, oh, this girl said this about you. And, you know, finding out later that wasn't true. It was just little things like that. But things that have a bigger impact.

• 15:20Keke Palmer?

  I do also have to say, I mean, these tights, I just got a glimpse of with this line in the back. So fabulous.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 15:25Keke Palmer?

  I'm getting into the details of this look.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  I don't know where it's like.

• 15:28Keke Palmer?

  It's so, that's why she was in that mansion. Because mama is hot. I live.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  So are you.

• 15:34Keke Palmer?

  Thank you. Now, what myths do you still see floating around about the Playboy mansion and Hef that you feel need to be shattered?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 15:47Keke Palmer?

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• 16:31Keke Palmer?

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• 16:56Keke Palmer?

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• 17:39Keke Palmer?

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• 18:06Keke Palmer?

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• 18:21Speaker 01

  You know, my mind is so open now after talking about all the things I've talked about that I'm always leave space for. You know what, something could be true and I just don't know. Like the one I love to talk about is people talk about there being tunnels under the mansion that like went to Diddy's house supposedly. And I'm like, not to my knowledge, like, could there have been tunnels? That I don't know about? Maybe? Well, also like the story doesn't really make sense too, because I don't think he moved to that neighborhood till like 2014 and have this like, you know, not really that active. This was long after I was gone, but.

• 18:52Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  But I don't know. As far as I know, no tunnels, you know? Anytime I say that, people get mad in the comments like, she knows and she's a tunnel denier. I'm like, I would be the first to tell you if there were tunnels. Trust me.

• 19:04Keke Palmer?

  That would be a trip.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I know.

• 19:06Keke Palmer?

  Now, in People Magazine, you said, "I thought leaving would be the end of my life. Instead, it was the beginning." What's something that began for you the moment that you walked away? And what did, when you said the end of my life, what did you think that meant?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Not necessarily, not like the end of my life, end of my life, but I just felt like I was giving up any, you know, kind of thing I had gained, any small thing I had gained over the seven years I was there. I thought I was completely starting from scratch, you know? Like I'd saved a little bit of money, but not much. And what I gained after that is just faith in myself, because I was able to start again out of nowhere and, you know, be successful and have a career right after that, so.

• 19:44Keke Palmer?

  How was the process of leaving? You know, what did it look like?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  It was me having a conversation with him after like a couple of months of, you know, thinking about it and finally being sure. And he was trying to get me to stay and he was like leaving his will out on his bed so I could read it and see how much was in there.

• 20:00Keke Palmer?

  Like, baby, I'm not 21 anymore.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  I know.

• 20:02Keke Palmer?

  How old were you by that time?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Uh, 29.

• 20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:06Keke Palmer?

  The same tricks don't work.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 20:09Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it was very awkward, you know, even the time it took just to pack up my stuff and finish filming for the show. It was an awkward couple of months.

• 20:18Keke Palmer?

  You know, we're talking so much about heft and love and all that stuff, but I'm very curious. How did that experience change your relationship or impact your relationship with women? Because you're in there with all those women and, you know, I mean, there's such a subtle like competition aspect. Like, how did that impact you?

• 20:34Speaker 01

  You know what's interesting is you look at that and you would think that I don't trust women and that I'm always very careful. But it's, hasn't changed that at all. Like, female friendships have been so important to me always. And from the second I left the mansion and moved to Vegas, I immediately had a new friend group. And I've been screwed over by a couple of women since then, but I've just never hardened to that. I've just always, you know, it's been super important to have those friendships.

• 20:58Keke Palmer?

  Well, even hearing you talk, it feels like you have so much like observation from it and like, almost even like compassion for yourself in the situation. Because you've often said it's kind of cult-like, so I imagine it was pretty hard to leave. What gave it that cult vibe?

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's just this world where it's kind of a high stakes environment where you're entering as a young person. And you could gain a lot, you could gain money, you could gain fame, whatever, at least you think you can. And everybody in the social circle is just so adoring of this one person who can do no wrong. And you can't even say like the slightest thing without getting like ostracized, you know? So it kind of gives you like a cult-like kind of mentality.

• 21:36Keke Palmer?

  And it creates this process where you're kind of lying to yourself.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  100%.

• 21:39Keke Palmer?

  Because it's like, nobody's that perfect. And if I can't be truthful out loud, I mean, like, did you ever feel a moment in time where you were like, this is delusional, you had to kind of wake yourself back up to what you authentically thought and felt about situations?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Definitely, and that was something that came to me even in time after I left. It didn't happen right away. It was something that took a couple of years, I feel like. Even I'd been away for a couple of years and I went back to this, you know, coffee table book we had made for the Girls Next Door show because I wanted to find some photo of some costume or something. And I'm looking through it and maybe the outsider wouldn't be able to look at these pictures of me and tell. But I could tell, like, I have the fakest smile right now, like, I'm so miserable and I'm doing this fake smile. And then it just all kind of came back and I was just looking back at it in a different way. You know, when I left, I didn't look in the rearview mirror at all. I was all thinking about my future. And I was just trying to tie the past up in the most positive way I could and just tie a nice little bow on it. But then when I finally looked back, I was like, holy, this was like way deeper than I even acknowledged at the time.

• 22:35Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. Isn't it so interesting how our subconscious protects us? It's like we, the higher us is protecting, you know, the, the front facing us more than we even know. Because once we out of the situation, we actually realized what we were hiding from ourselves that we needed to survive from.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 22:52Keke Palmer?

  It's crazy.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  You're a hundred percent right. It's such, you're just trying to get through that phase as best you can.

• 22:57Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. I'm really happy for, for you.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 22:59Keke Palmer?

  Getting out of that because it's really tough, especially with so many people validating it. I mean, when you left, did Bridget leave or what, what was that, what was happening with her? Oh, she wasn't, she was in the house, Bridget was.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Kendra had already decided to leave and Bridget was leaving temporarily to film a different show. And I don't think she had planned to leave yet. I think she thought she had a couple more years going. But after I left, I think she felt uncomfortable because then there were other girls moving in, taking my place. And I think she felt like this isn't really for me anymore.

• 23:29Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I mean, how was it filming The Girls Next Door? Like, when you look at it now, you know, how was that experience? Can you watch it now?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm actually doing a rewatch podcast called Girls Next Level. So we go deep into it and there's a lot to analyze and there's definitely a lot I'd complain about. But for the most part, that show was a really great opportunity and it took what was a really bleak situation and turned it into something better, you know, even just everyday life was better. Like, Hef even was really into the show and he was so focused on the show. He wasn't focused on any of the other petty stuff as much. So it really improved like all aspects of our life, really.

• 24:04Keke Palmer?

  Oh, love that. We love a job.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:06Keke Palmer?

  Now, your reality show, Holly's World, it premiered in 2009. And I mean, it really marked a turning point for you, going from girlfriend to boss. How did that help you take your power back? What was the journey of getting there?

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Um, it was interesting because I wasn't really doing any of the inner work because I was so just hitting the ground running and it's like I have to like start from scratch and build a whole new career. So that kind of came later when I got into writing my book, but I was just so excited to be in Vegas. I was headlining a burlesque show, which was what I wanted to do and doing my own TV show and I was just having the time of my life. It was one of my favorite chapters for sure.

• 24:40Keke Palmer?

  Now, were you always a dancer?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:42Keke Palmer?

  So it just kind of happened along this journey?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. My talent is selling tickets, not dancing.

• 24:48Keke Palmer?

  I know, that's right. Selling tickets, yes. So what did you think that Vegas gave you at that time? I mean, and it could be the burlesque show and it could have been, it could be, um, you know, Holly's World, but what do you think that experience from going from LA and everything that that was connected to? How did that, uh, how did going to Vegas kind of separate you from that?

• 25:06Speaker 01

  I really love the spirit of that city. You know, everybody there is a hustler. Everybody there is, I feel like there's an optimism about being in Vegas and working in Vegas. And we opened a show at a time when it was like right after the 2008 recession. So it was like the worst time you could try to do anything in Vegas, but we made it work. We made it a hit and just everybody, you know, knows how to survive there and I just love that.

• 25:33Keke Palmer?

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• 26:18Keke Palmer?

  the Tropical Smoothie Cafe app. Download it today or visit tropicalsmoothiecafe.com to find a cafe near you. You're on Tropic Time now at Tropical Smoothie Cafe.

• 26:31Keke Palmer?

  Baby, I have never, and I mean never, been more devastated than when I found out that some of y'all been sneaking around behind Domino's back just to get your stuffed crust fix. Now, you know us Virgos are incredibly loyal, steadfast even. Cheating, especially on something as serious as Parmesan stuffed crust pizza, ain't gonna fly in this house. I saw y'all slide into those other pizza spots, drive-throughs, ordering that cheese-filled crust like Domino's, and I wouldn't find out about your little rendezvous. But sweetie, the healing starts today because Domino's just dropped their own stuffed crust, and now y'all got no excuse to keep stepping out on them like this. It's time to put those pizza-cheating ways to rest. Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust

• 27:15Keke Palmer?

  is serving pure decadence with that buttery, handmade dough wrapped around a cascading stream of 100% melty goodness. These are the cheese pools of your dreams. It's very much a goofy movie level of ooey gooey cheesy deliciousness. And of course, your girl can't forget about that signature garlic seasoning and Parmesan sprinkle dance on top of that perfectly baked crust, making every single taste taste like it was blessed by the pizza gods themselves. Can think about it now. I'm already imagining the Parm stuffed pie I've been plotting on. Next time I'm placing my order, you best believe I'm having mushrooms, grilled onions, and some extra peppers just to, you know, keep the vegetables on top. Now, this is the kind of commitment I'm talking about. No more pizza cheating needed

• 27:59Keke Palmer?

  when Domino's is bringing this level of excellence to the table. Order Domino's new Parmesan stuffed crust pizza on the Domino's app and use code KIKI to get any three-topping Parmesan stuffed crust pizza for $11.99. Price is higher for some locations. You must ask for this limited-time offer. Prices, participation, delivery area, and charges may vary. Delivery orders subject to local store's delivery charge. I'll let you, girl.

• 28:27Keke Palmer?

  You said something interesting about, you know, like, you know, you left, you really didn't understand the impact. You know, you did Holly's World, did the Burlesque Show. You still weren't all the way, you know, because you hadn't taken time. You were kind of just working, hitting the ground running. What was the first time that you truly felt ownership of your story? That you were actually kind of now the observer of what you had to survive through?

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Definitely when I wrote my book in 2015. I decided to write it because every single day of my life, I would go out and somebody would come up to me and say, "How's he doing?" And I would always like give some kind of positive answer just because I thought that was the nice thing to do, even though by this point I wasn't even speaking to him. And, you know, we'd had a falling out and he was off making snarky comments. But for some reason, I felt like this responsibility to still be like the cheerleader of that whole thing.

• 29:11Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  And I just couldn't do it anymore. I just felt like I don't want to keep selling this relationship I was in that was really toxic and that I wouldn't recommend to anybody else. Like, I need to tell the truth about it. And I'm glad I did.

• 29:23Keke Palmer?

  I am too. And I think as a performer, any type of performer, look, first of all, I believe every person that's human is performing. We have to always perform humanity. It's kind of like the construct of social structures. But in that, you know, you can lose yourself in the performance of who you think you're supposed to be. And I think that's like a really big part of self-actualization is like, well, I'm different from who I'm showing up as. Like, there's another person that's deep inside that only I know. How has your relationship with performance changed? Like, how do you view it? Because you're obviously still entertaining, you know, do those things. But how have you created more healthy boundaries for yourself within that performance?

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Well, I think for me, one of the healthiest things I did was I was bored during quarantine. So I started a TikTok and a YouTube channel. And I just felt like those were kind of the first places I could like look at the camera and just be myself and speak candidly. Even when I was doing reality shows, even when I was doing my own reality show, when I was in that confessional chair, I always felt like I was still playing this role, this other version of Holly. So that was a really positive thing for me. And I feel like I can just be candid now. And I still have boundaries. Like, I don't talk about my kids or like post my kids' faces on social media, things like that are important like that. But other than that, I just feel like I'm an open book and I like being that way.

• 30:36Keke Palmer?

  Now, you mentioned your book, obviously, Down the Rabbit Hole, dropped in 2015. That wasn't just a memoir, it was a mic drop. What gave you the courage, truly, to just tell the truth like that? And were there any, at any point did you think, "I'm gonna get sued"? Or were, you know, this is NDAs? Or how did you prepare yourself for all of that?

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Well, it wasn't really a question of courage. It was more just, I felt like I had to do it. It was something I was being approached about and asked about every day. And I just felt like I was living a lie, kind of trying to tell this like shiny, happy, positive story. And you start to make yourself sick over it. Like, you feel sick in your gut. So I just felt, "I have to do this. I don't even care." And the publishing company I worked with had a really great legal team that worked with me. So I learned a lot from that. And now I feel confident saying whatever I say on my podcast and, you know, YouTube, because I've just been doing this for so long, so.

• 31:27Keke Palmer?

  And then the other thing about it too is like, because there were so many other people involved, when you speak out and you tell your truth, then it kind of exposes them. So how did you feel? And how was your experience with the other women that were with you in the mansion? If they didn't want those things heard, did they reach out? Were they upset? What was the backlash there, if there was any?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  A lot of people were upset, not necessarily women, specifically about what I said, because most of the women who lived there before we did the TV show, I just changed their names and their identifying characteristics. So there's some deniability for it, for them. But a lot of people who'd been in the magazine at all or attached to Playboy were mad about it because, you know, they still see that as such a huge part of their identity and how they're known. And they just don't want anything bad being said about it.

• 32:13Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I don't want to talk about your children specifically because I respect you wanting to be private. But I know you had your daughter in 2013, your son in 2016. I want to know how motherhood, you know, changed these things for you. Because for me, when I had my son, I saw everything about my life so much clearer. I don't know what it was. I don't know if it's the hormones. I don't know, like, if it was just also me maturing because of having to take care of a little person. But it really changed how I viewed. My life. How did it impact you?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I think part of, you know, wanting to be more of an open book and more real with people is inspired by parenthood as well.

• 32:48Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  And just, you know, wanting to keep it real for your kids and everything like that. Also, it gives me healthy boundaries. Like, ever since I got divorced, I only dated one person, but I didn't even introduce that guy to my kids at all because they're like my number one. And I wouldn't introduce them to anybody unless I was like engaged. So I love that I have those boundaries and, you know, they really like, you know, examples like that. It's just like kids enrich your life in ways that you don't even know.

• 33:13Keke Palmer?

  When you think about autonomy and your relationship with it, what's something that you would want to make sure that your kids know that maybe you didn't know? Or that you arrived to, that you wish you'd maybe arrived to sooner?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Just to have faith in yourself and don't make decisions based off of fear. I think I was doing a lot of that in my early years.

• 33:28Keke Palmer?

  Mm hmm. It's just, I feel like it's so a part of our lives. We are, you know, it's like, what else do you know? You don't know. People always talk about self-esteem being high or low, and I just, I don't believe that. I believe, I talked to my therapist about this. Shout out to you. Um, that self-esteem is always growing because I can't know I don't like something until I've tried it.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 33:47Keke Palmer?

  You know, so it's like having that patience with ourselves. It's so, you know, like, I gotta know what I don't like to know what I love.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:53Keke Palmer?

  That's just a part of it. You can't get around it. Um, something else that I, you know, is interesting to me that, um, you've discovered, you know, as you've gotten older is autism, that you had autism. How did you even go about saying, let me get checked for it?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  I always knew there was something different about me, but I blamed it on growing up really isolated in Alaska, even though my sister's not like that at all. So it doesn't really make sense, but that was always kind of where my headspace was at. But about five years ago, my mom mentioned to me and to my ex-husband that she always suspected I had Asperger's. And she said that one of the first symptoms was I would just zone out a lot as a kid. I would just lock onto something and just completely like be on another planet. And she didn't know what was going on. And then I started looking that up and seeing what the, some of the symptoms were and thought that that sounded like me.

• 34:37Keke Palmer?

  Girl, tell me the symptoms because I zone out.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Well, there's that. There's not understanding social cues, not making eye contact, which I can do now, but that's more of a learned thing. Stims, like my big thing was I was always, and you can go back and see it on my old shows, I'm like constantly playing with my hair, things like that.

• 34:53Keke Palmer?

  Hmm. I feel like so many of us are discovering that we have some type of neurodivergency. As we, I don't know if it's because like there was shame with our parents in the past and when the teacher's like, they got this, they got that, and they're like, no, no, no. I don't know. It's very interesting to me. Or maybe it's because we all have social media and we can talk about these things and it's giving us the resource to find answers. I mean, when you came to that, was it a relief? Or was it a like, you know?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  No, it was 100% a relief. I feel like I could address issues I felt I had with social interactions and stuff better because I understand it more.

• 35:26Keke Palmer?

  Was it a lens that helped heal you? I mean, I guess you don't know who you would have, who you are without that, but do you feel like that was the, I don't want to say was the reason for things, but do you feel like it gave you kind of like, oh, that's?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, it helped me understand.

• 35:38Keke Palmer?

  Stuff?

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it helped me understand some of the reasoning. It helped me understand why I felt, in part, like I bonded with him so much. Um, part of that was because I never bonded with people my own age or guys my own age, really, you know, like I had a boyfriend in high school, but it never felt very deep or very connected and, you know, all it took was one guy who's really good at charming and manipulating for me to feel like, oh, well, maybe I'm supposed to be with an older person. I don't know.

• 36:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's just, it's always helpful to get any insight onto how you operate, I think.

• 36:09Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm always looking into myself too. I mean, you know, you just want to know how to be the best you. And it's funny because it's like a book that never stops writing itself.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 36:18Keke Palmer?

  The list just gets longer. I want to talk about the latest season of your series, The Playboy Murders. It premiered in May and explores the dark side of fame, exploitation and the Playboy brand. I mean, what made you want to go into true crime? And about something that could possibly be quite triggering for you?

• 36:35Speaker 01

  I've always been incredibly interested in true crime content. I grew up on Unsolved Mysteries. That was my favorite thing I got to watch when I was allowed to. And when this show was pitched to me, at first I didn't want to do it because I was like, I'm doing, I've done too many Playboy things. I'm like up to my ears in it. But they showed me the deck on the cases they wanted to cover and there were cases I hadn't even heard about. And I thought I knew everything about anybody who'd ever been involved in Playboy. And I was like, this is a show I would actually watch. So I really wanted to be involved. And we're on our third season now and it's been so rewarding to be able to tell these stories. And talk about the women and the victims more than just a pretty face or just a centerfold or a Playboy bunny.

• 37:11Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. I mean, how do you emotionally prepare for it if you have to? I mean, I don't. Don't know how dark and how deep it gets, but is there a moment where you, whenever you're doing true crime stuff, it's like, it can be heavy.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you definitely have to pace yourself when you're doing that kind of work. And, you know, I try to just approach it from a way of like, if I were that victim, how would I want my story told?

• 37:31Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  And try to be as empathetic as I can through that lens.

• 37:34Keke Palmer?

  What kind of comments and feedback do you guys get from the viewers? You know, what do women take away the most, you think?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  Oh, people love the stories because you have that intersection of, you know, the story itself and the crime itself. And then this really interesting world that these people come from. I also do a show called Lethally Blonde that's similar type of stories. They're not Playboy specific.

• 37:53Keke Palmer?

  Come on, Lethally Blonde.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  But yeah, the stories are really interesting because the people involved always come from a really interesting world or a really interesting background or something else we can explore.

• 38:05Keke Palmer?

  What sign are you, Holly?

• 38:06Speaker 01

  I'm a Capricorn.

• 38:07Keke Palmer?

  Yes, my perfect match, Capricorn and Virgo. Yes, yes. So when you think about yourself, I mean, you've done such an incredible job, whether with Playboy or just with your own personal brand. I mean, you've continuously branched your brand out in all these different categories. Did you see this for yourself? I mean, did you automatically feel like, you know, I'm meant to be somebody in this particular way, like as an entertainer or somebody that's taking center stage?

• 38:34Speaker 01

  You know what's weird is I would always see when I was a teenager, like, things people were doing in the public eye. And I always knew I wanted to have this career where I started out like in Playboy as like a glamour model and then went into TV in some way. But I always assumed I would be like hosting a show or something. I didn't know it was going to be reality and then true crime. So it's weird that I got exactly where I wanted to go, but in such a weird way. Like, what even is that?

• 39:00Keke Palmer?

  That's God, girl. He'd be doing anything up there.

• 39:04Keke Palmer?

  I want to talk about freedom and legacy. How do you define freedom now?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Freedom is being able to do what you want, when you want, which you can't always, you have to compromise for people somewhere along the line. But for the most part, being able to do what you enjoy and what you find rewarding.

• 39:22Keke Palmer?

  What would you say to that girl, that 21-year-old girl that walked into the Playboy Mansion? What would you, what would you say to her if you could say something to her now about freedom or about anything?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I'd say, hold the [bleep] on.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  It's gonna get rough and take a lot of pictures.

• 39:38Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I think sometimes those questions people want to hear and answer like, oh, I tell her not to do this or not to do that. But even though like, things were rough and miserable at times, like, I truly believe this was the journey I was supposed to go on, even if it was just to tell my story and warn other people or give other people a perspective.

• 39:58Keke Palmer?

  As your parents started watching the show, or even family and friends from back home in general, what was the feedback that you would be getting in real time?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  People from back home wouldn't really give me any feedback. And that's kind of a scary thought. Like, maybe they thought this is awful and we're just not gonna say anything. So I don't really know. I wasn't really getting feedback. I just remember, you know, this was when I first stumbled across like message boards on the E Network site. And, you know, you think you're the only one being talked about because we all see like all the [BLEEP] talking and stuff. And that was like, kind of devastating, you know, in my earlier twenties. But, you know, I've learned to deal with it.

• 40:33Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I mean, and it's only gotten increasingly worse. I mean, now you're also in an influencer era. How do you think those earlier reality show years prepared you for this now?

• 40:43Speaker 01

  It definitely prepared me for it, you know? I worry about like the next generation. I hope that the next generation actually just has a thicker skin. They're like, we grew up with this, we don't care. This might as well be bots talking about us. I hope that, that's what I hope for the next generation.

• 40:56Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, the real thing too is most of the time, everybody's just trying to get a laugh. That's one thing that I'd learned. Because I grew up, you know, performing in the era too where there wasn't much stuff online. Like, when I had a MySpace or a Facebook, it was private. It wasn't until, you know, my teenage years that that started being something that became a part of my job.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:14Keke Palmer?

  And now, I think it's like, hopefully, we're getting to the point where we can tell the difference. And it's not something that really moves us or impacts us in a way that I think it initially did.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope so too.

• 41:26Keke Palmer?

  Whenever we go through like traumatic events, obviously, there's a piece of us that we still hold on to. And sometimes it could be a person, like you mentioned, rigid. You know, for some people, it's God, or their faith, or an activity, or something that holds on to the version of them that just, you know, is pure and that not affected. It helps them to stay grounded. What helped you stay grounded, you think?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I always had this weird faith that like, everything was gonna turn out OK. Even though in my mind, it wasn't. In my mind, I had all these worries, like, what happens if this? What happens if that? You know, I was constantly scared of like getting kicked out or whatever. But I always had this weird faith, kind of above it all, that if I just kept going and just kept my head down and working toward my goals, that everything was gonna be OK. And I'm kind of like spiritual in a weird way. And I almost feel like that was a future version of myself telling myself that.

• 42:16Keke Palmer?

  I have believed stuff like that, too. You know, I remember moments in my life as a performer where I realized, like even in my own household, that I just couldn't be me, for whatever reason. People, I was not being accepted. And I thought to myself that there'll be a time where I can take the mask off and I can show everybody who I really am and that I know what's going on. And they'll, they'll like have to accept it, because I won't be a kid anymore.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 42:37Keke Palmer?

  And it's, I just held on to it. I think it was my, my higher, my higher self, too, that was like, girl, I'll be here waiting when you're there.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that.

• 42:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. Um, I mean, you said before, you didn't want to be remembered as someone's girlfriend. Do you feel that you've changed that narrative now?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think people always like to go back to that. I don't care about it as much as I used to. You know, you just can't really control those things.

• 43:01Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, you can't.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:03Keke Palmer?

  What made you stop caring?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  I think one thing I realized, and this is looking at half himself, is he was so obsessed with his own legacy. And what was he gonna leave behind? And what were people gonna think of him? And he was constantly producing documentaries about himself and making all these scrapbooks and having books written about himself. And his legacy didn't turn out like what he wanted at all.

• 43:27Keke Palmer?

  Mm-mm.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  So you can't control your legacy. You just can't. It's out of your hands.

• 43:31Keke Palmer?

  You really can't. Do you think in that process of watching him? I'm curious now that you're talking about all the different. Things he was doing that you learned anything about production, about brand management, about, you know, did he share that with you guys? Did he try to keep you guys out of that? Or do you feel you benefited from watching his business?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Definitely benefited from watching his business. I worked with him for several years too. When I worked at the Playboy Studios, I produced all the Playmate layouts. And the job was amazing and the work relationship was amazing. Personal relationship, not so much, but.

• 43:57Keke Palmer?

  Yeah. But that I would only imagine. I'm glad I wouldn't know if he kept that part away from you guys for particular reasons or if you got a chance to kind of really at least learn something from that.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I think I learned a lot, probably more than I even could reference.

• 44:10Keke Palmer?

  To anyone else that might be feeling trapped

• 44:14Keke Palmer?

  in their own story, the own, you know, the facing identity of who they are, what is something as someone that has, I think successfully changed the narrative around them? What would you, what piece of advice would you give to someone else?

• 44:26Speaker 01

  I would always say, don't be afraid to ask for help. And if you have that one friend you want to confide in and, you know, get some of their feedback. And look, I'm not, I'm not feeling authentic. I'm not feeling, you know, what can I try that's different, that feels authentic? And then just follow that.

• 44:40Keke Palmer?

  Well, I love that. I love talking to you and I'm just so glad. Like I just, I, I, I can talk to you for hours because you're such an interesting person. I'm really glad that you came on the show.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 44:50Keke Palmer?

  Thank you. Yes.

• 44:54Keke Palmer?

  Yes, that was a word, okay? Big love to Holly for keeping it real and reminding us that healing ain't always soft. It's sharp, it's loud, and it's necessary. From the mansion to the mic, she is showing us what it looks like to take your power back and use it for good. So whether you're out here rewriting your own story, setting new boundaries, or just learning to listen to your gut, take this as your sign. You don't owe the world your silence. Now go on and hit play on Holly's Girls Next Level podcast if you haven't already and watch Playboy Murders and keep speaking your truth because somebody out there needs to hear it. Until next time, holla at your girl.