Aspire with Bozoma Saint John: Why Playing Small Is Sabotaging Your Success (and How to Stop)

In this electrifying sit-down, marketing powerhouse Bozoma Saint John tells Emma Grede how trusting her gut—and refusing to shrink—propelled her from a junior assistant’s cubicle to the C-suite, and now to founding the hair-care disruptor, Eve by Boz. She unpacks why “excellence is a baseline” was the mantra drilled into her by her Ghanaian parents, shares the exact language she used to claim credit without apology, and explains why ditching a rigid five-year plan unlocked once-in-a-lifetime opportunities. Boz dives deep on separating ego from intuition, funding a factory in Ghana to center Black women in a $7-billion industry, and spotting the storytelling through-line that ties every bold career move together. If you’re ready to amplify your voice, own your wins, and make audacious moves, this conversation is your playbook—hit subscribe, and share it with someone who needs a confidence boost today.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:10Emma Grede?

  Have you ever wondered what it takes to design the career of your dreams? By the end of today's episode, you'll have the answer. Meet Bozoma St John, marketing force behind Apple, Uber and Netflix. She shreds the rulebook on how to own your story, bankroll your vision and turn selfish into career rocket fuel. Stick around, your blueprint for a fearless career starts now.

• 0:37Emma Grede?

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• 1:22Emma Grede?

  or schedule a lift while automatically applying your member benefits. Download the Built app and join the membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/emma. That's J O I N B I L T dot com slash emma. Use our link so they know we sent you.

• 1:45Emma Grede?

  Bose, welcome to Aspire.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  My pleasure.

• 1:48Emma Grede?

  I am so happy to have you here, honestly. Just the very sight of you makes me happy. With that smile and the whole thing. I'm in my Bose look today. With the sequins and the colour. Because we know I don't like sequins and colour.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Well, but we're matching in our sequins and colour. Well, I don't have sequins on.

• 2:06Emma Grede?

  Yes, we are. But you usually do. You are a sequin, my darling. You are just a bright, shining star.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  I'm a human sequin.

• 2:12Emma Grede?

  Literally, of all the compliments to start with. There you go.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 2:16Emma Grede?

  So, I want to jump straight in because something that we talk about in business all the time is excellence. And what I read about you and your childhood was that excellence was just the expectation. There was no, there was no middle, there was no okay. And so I kind of want you to take me back a little bit and talk to me about your childhood, your upbringing, but mostly how that relates to who you are and how you come into the world today.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that's great. I mean, I love starting there because I like to start with DNA. You know, and I think.

• 2:46Emma Grede?

  It's important.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do have excellent DNA. My parents are exceptional human beings and neither of them.

• 2:53Emma Grede?

  Be so happy to hear you say something like that.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Well, I think they expect me to say that.

• 2:58Emma Grede?

  Because they're like, excellence will bring you there.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  If my dad was here, he'd be like, yes, he is right.

• 3:02Emma Grede?

  Excellent answer.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, she'd be like, yeah, that's, that's true. But I think they're excellent, not just because they're compassionate and good people, but because they overcame so much, you know, and, and didn't really have anyone to tell them to excel. Yet they did.

• 3:20Emma Grede?

  And yet they did.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like my dad is a orphan, you know, who was orphaned at fourteen from this small little place on the very western border of Ghana. The statistics about whether or not he should have succeeded in life are, they don't exist. But yet he came out of that situation, earned two PhDs, raised four daughters who were all exceptional people.

• 3:47Emma Grede?

  Exceptional people. And you were raised here, right, in America?

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was raised in a lot of places. I was, I was born in Connecticut.

• 3:53Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 3:54Speaker 01

  But my dad is a Pan-Africanist and wanted to go back to the continent as soon as he received his education. You know, I think at that time, late sixties, early seventies, most people who immigrated for education would just stay and build their life in whatever country they went to, whether it was America or Europe.

• 4:09Emma Grede?

  To go back.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was like, I've got my education, I'm going back. And so he became a professor at the university, he went into politics. But then unfortunately, there was a coup, a coup d'etat in Ghana in the early eighties, and that's how we left.

• 4:22Emma Grede?

  And what did, so what did that mean for you and your family?

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Well, it was an uprooting, right? Because like I said, my parents are Pan-Africanists, they love Africa. They want to help uplift Africa. And so for them, the coup meant a disruption of that. It meant that they couldn't actually be in the country that they wanted to be in. And so we came to the US in political asylum. And we're here for a few months and then my dad was like, nope, back to Africa we go. But we went to the other side of the continent to Kenya. And we're there for a few years and by that point, the political situation in Ghana had settled down. And so we went back to Ghana. But by that point, it wasn't the same, you know, for my dad. And he decided that, okay, well, you know, maybe his talents aren't there, but he could use them in the US. And that's how we settled back in the US when I was 12.

• 5:08Emma Grede?

  12 years old.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:09Emma Grede?

  And what about your mother at this stage?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Oh, my mother.

• 5:12Emma Grede?

  Because I know you're so close to your mother.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, very, very close to my mom. She's a homemaker, a chosen one, because she is a fashion designer by trade. And always had a little boutique, you know, in our house.

• 5:26Emma Grede?

  Is that where you get it all from?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, yes, certainly my stylist, my mother. No one would argue with that. My dad wouldn't argue with that, you know? But she, you know, she made couture. And so it was, and, and not with patterns. You know, she took measurements and designed and cut fabrics. And so like that cut of, of fabric for the small, you know, sort of quiet whir of a sewing machine are my earliest memories. And she, she would make everything. I mean, she made my prom dresses, you know, she made my wedding dress. We both designed it.

• 6:00Emma Grede?

  That's amazing.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:01Emma Grede?

  That's amazing. What did you learn from your parents?

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Well, look, I, my parents are immigrants. At the end of the day, that's what they are. They've been nomadic, not by choice, but by the situation. And for me, I think there's a number of things that has taught me. One, compassion, you know, for people who come from different walks of life, who, you know, sometimes have to change their situation in order to make themselves better or make their families better. And having compassion for that. They've also taught me the power of, uh, understanding that it doesn't matter what your circumstances are. That excellence is, should be expected of your life. You know, not just of like how you are, but just of your life.

• 6:44Emma Grede?

  You knew that from a young age?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  From a young age.

• 6:47Emma Grede?

  How old?

• 6:48Speaker 01

  I don't know that there's a time I didn't know that.

• 6:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and it's interesting you say that. I feel like you either are raised like that and you know it.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:54Emma Grede?

  Intrinsicly.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  It's innate.

• 6:56Emma Grede?

  Or it comes to you like much later in life, like in your career. But I feel like the same for me. It was like, there is no choice but for you to be the best.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:03Emma Grede?

  And my mom didn't care what it was that I decided to do, but she's like, you better be really, really good at it.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And here's the thing. I think there's, there is another layer to my understanding, which isn't even just so much that I need to be the best. That was just out the gate. That was not in, that was not anything that you could argue.

• 7:20Emma Grede?

  Not up for discussion.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  You have to be the best. But it wasn't just that. It was that your life will be the best. Your life will be excellent. And so you approach life that way. You don't approach life like, oh, woe is me and this situation is terrible and I've got to rise above it. That was not the understanding. The understanding is that your life and not your present life, your future life.

• 7:40Emma Grede?

  And that it was your responsibility to make it happen? No, how did you, how did you contextualize that as a kid?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 7:45Emma Grede?

  Like, your life has to be excellent.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Your responsibility was to be the best in your life.

• 7:48Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  But the understanding was that your life is going to be the best. So you should act that way.

• 7:54Emma Grede?

  You should behave that way.

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yes. You should walk into the room.

• 7:56Emma Grede?

  Come to expect it.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yes, come to expect that the world is going to conspire in your best interest.

• 8:02Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  And so even when bad things happen to you, know that they are for eventually your good. And so there is no complaining. There is no sitting down and being like, oh, I can't believe this happened to me today. It's like, okay, well, this happened to you today, but it's probably for your benefit. So you should figure out how that's going to be great for you.

• 8:18Emma Grede?

  I mean, honestly, your career reads like, I mean, I don't even understand. It's like a Fortune 500 roll call, you know, from Apple to Pepsi to Beats to Uber. Like, it's so unbelievably extraordinary. And I wonder if like you knew that that was the type of career you were gonna have.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'd never planned for this career.

• 8:40Emma Grede?

  You never planned?

• 8:41Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. And I think perhaps that's the surprise of it all. It's a surprise to me too, by the way.

• 8:46Emma Grede?

  Get out of here.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  No, seriously.

• 8:47Emma Grede?

  You can't tell me that because I'm the most planned person on the planet. What do you mean you never planned? You are not planned.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I am absolutely not planned.

• 8:53Emma Grede?

  There's no strategy to this career you've built?

• 8:55Speaker 01

  There is no strategy, no. I didn't, I didn't start.

• 8:59Emma Grede?

  Get out of here. You're lying.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  No, I did not. I don't, I don't make.

• 9:03Emma Grede?

  You had, you had that type of career and there was no planning involved?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  No, no planning of that. And currently, I don't have a five-year plan. I don't have a 10-year plan. I don't even have a year plan. No, I don't. I know, I know. That's like causing you like to like feel like you're gonna shake it. No, but I don't have a plan. I don't have a plan.

• 9:21Emma Grede?

  So how did this? So let's actually, because you, you know, I reel off those companies like it's nothing. But we're talking about the best of the best of the best. And you held the highest position in what you do in marketing, chief marketing officer at many of these companies. So how did this happen? Like I'm, I feel like there's gonna be so many people listening to this podcast that would be like, I would love to have that type of career. So coming from where you come from, believing what you did, how did you find yourself in those positions?

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing is that I think part of the reason why this has happened or is happening is that there many moments of like

• 10:04Speaker 01

  the sliding doors. You know, there's a film in the late 90s.

• 10:08Emma Grede?

  So good with Gwyneth.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  With Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 10:10Emma Grede?

  Yes, I remember it.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Sliding doors.

• 10:11Emma Grede?

  Go left or go right.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  I love that film.

• 10:13Emma Grede?

  It was so good.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  The difference for me from that film is that, you know, sometimes when you think of sliding doors, like, okay, you have like two choices and you go this way and something happens, you go this way, something else happens. My belief system is that it's not as whether it's right or wrong, it's just different. And so it doesn't, that's why I don't stress out about decisions. You know, it's like, oh, you gotta do this. I don't make phone calls because of that reason.

• 10:35Emma Grede?

  You're gonna make a decision and then make it right? Like, is that how you think about it?

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Like, I'm gonna make the decision and then it's gonna work. It's the way I approach everything.

• 10:43Emma Grede?

  Well, it's how you were raised.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:44Emma Grede?

  Right?

• 10:45Speaker 01

  And so for me, it's not like, you know, when people stress out or like I have friends who call me and just like, what should I do? Should I accept this job? Should I not? Like, should I move to this place? Should I go on the date with this person? Like, they're stressed out about these ideas and I'm just like, but why stress out about it? There is no wrong answer. Go and trust that your destiny will meet you there. Like, trust that.

• 11:08Emma Grede?

  Where did that come from? Like, do you feel like that, that like, has that been your experience?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  That has been my experience and it's, it's also proven. And so I think sometimes it's very difficult to have a theory and then just go with it without proof. But I'm like, look, it's proven itself again and again and again. So why would I not believe that? Why would I live my life any differently?

• 11:29Emma Grede?

  Did you choose marketing or do you feel like it chose you?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  No, it definitely chose me. I for sure fell into it. But I think that, again, that sort of life and the way that I am supposed to be in this life was there all along for marketing. I just didn't know that. And so when I was in high school and probably even earlier than that, I was just really good at science and math. You know, I was one of those kids who just, I got it easily. It wasn't a problem. I studied very hard, but I didn't have a challenge with with those topics. But I loved pop culture, not because I I found it particularly interesting, but I needed it for survival. So when I moved-

• 12:05Emma Grede?

  What do you mean by that?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Well, when when my family moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado, when I was 12, we were coming straight from Ghana, right? Having had this very diplomatic and like political and academic life in in different countries-

• 12:19Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and coming from a totally different culture.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I come to a city where most people, if they are, you know, with the military, so either Air Force or Army, they've maybe moved around, but they were held to like US standards, or people who were born and raised in Colorado Springs and never left. And so it wasn't like I was coming into a place of, you know, people who are cosmopolitan. And that's not shade against anybody, it's just the reality of the situation.

• 12:43Emma Grede?

  Reality of what it was. Did you feel otherwise? Did you feel like this is like, these are not my people?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I certainly felt other.

• 12:48Emma Grede?

  And I don't fit in?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and not because I felt other, but because they made me feel like I was other. You know, I'd been in so many places where it's like I didn't speak the language or I wasn't of that culture and never felt uncomfortable in it because I knew who I was.

• 13:02Emma Grede?

  Until you got to America.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  And my parents reinforced that, until I got to America. And then people were like, oh, you are different and we don't even like you.

• 13:10Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  And I'm like, okay, well, I don't know what to tell you. And what is interesting, Emma, is that there there's a moment that is crystallized in my mind that I remember, like it was yesterday, I had to be maybe 13 or 14. And I was looking at myself in the mirror, getting ready for school and trying to understand, like looking at myself deeply and contemplating, why don't they like me? You couldn't understand it? I couldn't understand it, cuz I was like, I'm so amazing. No, seriously, like, I remembered this moment, like, looking at myself and being like, they make fun of my hair, they make fun of my face, like, they make fun of my skin. And you didn't have that incised self doubt into you? You weren't like, maybe my hair, maybe my...

• 13:54Speaker 01

  I just thought there was something wrong with them, cuz I was like, I was like, I don't understand, cuz I was looking at myself and thinking, I'm so dope. And I really thought that at thirteen. Like, I was just like, I know it, and they don't see it, and I don't understand why. And so what I was trying to understand wasn't that like, oh, how do I change my hair? But I was thinking, how do I make them see that I'm dope? And part of that was like, look, I've gotta, I gotta know the things that they know and then understand them better. Were you into the things that they knew? Like, did you get to America and go like, wow, this, that popular culture thing is like popping off? This is incredible, this place.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  No, I loved it. I have always loved music and fashion and sports and politics and gossip and social thing. Like, I have always, all of it. I've always loved all of it. And so for me, you know, trying to understand why it is that they saw me differently, it became academic. You don't to really understand, okay, well, what is this culture about? Why does everybody in Colorado Springs love the Denver Broncos? Okay, I need to understand American football. Yeah. You know, why do they love, you know, Paula Abdul? Gotta understand pop culture and music in that way. You know, why is it that they're wearing three socks stacked up against each other? You know, what kind of fashion is that? You know, but like... Did you stack the socks? I certainly did, you know, I rolled up my sleeves and all that. I wore my hair with the...

• 15:17Speaker 01

  You put the bangles on, pull up like the whole thing. I had the hairspray going in my hair. You know, so for me, it became academic, like, feeling like, look, I've gotta understand what it is that they like, so I can talk to these people and understand them. And so pop culture to me was academic. It became something for survival in that I needed it so that they didn't see me as so strange. And, but at this point, you're not putting it together that I'm interested in pop culture, and so there's a career out here for me in marketing, that doesn't happen. That doesn't happen, that doesn't even happen for me in college. That happens after college. So what's your first job? Very first job, like, in high school? Mm-hmm. AT&T, telephone operator. Okay. Yeah, I was sixteen. It was great.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Hello, this is A12.

• 16:03Emma Grede?

  You never forget those jobs.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, never, never. It was great. And I think also because, you know, again, this is where now I can look back and be like, oh, all these things were like building up, right? Because it was mostly people who were trying to call their family outside of the US.

• 16:20Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  And needed somebody to connect them. Of course, now in today's culture, nobody understands it. Just pick up your cell phone and call. But it's like, you needed to call the operators, connect you to your international family. And so most of the people I was talking to had very heavy accents or, you know, were trying. I'm over here like looking at all the area codes and being like, what's the country code for that? And then the city code and then dial the number. I was doing that. And to think about it now where it's like, that's what I do is connect people to things, to brands. You know, and it's like, how would I have known that at 16, my very first job?

• 16:54Emma Grede?

  How would you have known?

• 16:55Speaker 01

  Would even like connect to what I'm doing now.

• 16:57Emma Grede?

  Which is wild.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:58Emma Grede?

  So what was the first time that you understood, okay, I'm going to be in marketing? Like, this is something that's for me now.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had graduated from undergrad as a pre-med major. I took the MCAT.

• 17:11Emma Grede?

  Were your family thrilled when you left the departure?

• 17:13Speaker 01

  They were so overjoyed. And my dad was like, oh, we're gonna have a doctor. I'm sorry, what are you gonna do now? Exactly, right. But I had, I had graduated, I had tried to find every excuse not to go to med school just yet. It wasn't that I didn't want to go, I was just like, I don't want to go right now.

• 17:30Emma Grede?

  Yes, good choice.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And so I decided to move to New York on my own.

• 17:35Emma Grede?

  How old were you at this point?

• 17:36Speaker 01

  One person. God, I was 22.

• 17:38Emma Grede?

  Okay. A sensible age to leave the family.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:41Emma Grede?

  Unlike me, I was like 15, I'm like, I'm out of here. My mom's like, good luck.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, look, I had, I had the benefit of having left for college across the country. So I didn't go to school near my family.

• 17:52Emma Grede?

  Got it, very sensible.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  And after the first summer, I never came back.

• 17:55Emma Grede?

  Right.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  You know, I was just like, no, I'm good.

• 17:56Emma Grede?

  So you were already out on your own and you're like, I'm moving to New York.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm out of here.

• 18:00Emma Grede?

  This feels like a place, and why New York? You were like, this is where it's all happening.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just seemed exciting.

• 18:04Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  You know, I didn't have a real reason, I just, but funny enough, my dad says that like when I was like four or five, I was Said I want to live in New York. No way. Which was weird because we didn't know anybody. Nobody knew anybody in New York. No, you don't know anyone anywhere then where you're from. Exactly. A family from here and we live here, that's it, yeah. And so I moved there and I knew one person who had gone to my college and she was getting a masters in film. And so I made a deal with her and her roommate. I said, look, if you let me sleep on the couch, I'll cook. Right? But y'all had to buy the groceries because I don't have no money. I was like, you know what? Let me do a great deal for that. Girl, okay, look. So I was doing odd jobs, you know, temp jobs to make money and just to survive. And then, again, I feel like, you know, destiny met me where I was standing, which was on the corner of Hundred Street, Fifth Street and Broadway.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  All right, in Harlem. And I got the call or I called into my temp agency that morning. It says Spike Lee had fired his assistant. And he needed somebody to come answer the phone. Do you know who Spike Lee was? Yeah, I knew who Spike was. I definitely knew who Spike was. So you ran. By the way, I also knew that the only reason they said I should go is because I was probably the only black person. A hundred percent, but you're like, this is it, I'm leaning in. You're like, I'll be there. You know? I'll take me, I'm my black ass straight up to that job, a hundred percent. No, and so I rolled up there in this really terrible gray suit with my hair pulled back in a tight bun. Pearls in my ears, thinking I looked extraordinarily professional. Assistant like, yes, yes, yes, yes. The front desk, I came early, you know, before Spike and Eric. You come early.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Waiting for the phone to ring. It wasn't ringing, but I was sitting there ready in case it did. And Spike walked in and he takes one look at me and he's just like, he's like, god damn it, they sent me Miss America. And I looked at him and I was, and I was so, again, like offended and confused. And I literally was just like, wait, why don't you, why don't you see me? You know, I was like, I am well educated. I am a pre-med major. But you don't say this, you're thinking this. I'm thinking it, but it is on my face because I do not have a poker face. And so he, so he's standing there looking at me and I'm looking at him. And there's not a word happening in the agency. And he just turns around and he goes into his office. And I'm sitting there like, well, that was rude.

• 20:20Emma Grede?

  That was rude.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  That's rude.

• 20:21Emma Grede?

  And that was not the first meeting that you wanted, clearly.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  No, of course not.

• 20:24Emma Grede?

  Because we have our things, like you're ready to say something really smart and to impress him.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I didn't have that.

• 20:29Emma Grede?

  No, no.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  But the thing I did notice was that he was walking around with a something under his arm. And I obviously knew it was a director, so I assumed it was a script. So when he came out of his office again, I was like, what were you carrying earlier? And he was like, a script for my new film. And I was like, can I read it? And he was like, okay.

• 20:51Emma Grede?

  The receptionist, the front of house.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  The temp, the temp receptionist.

• 20:54Emma Grede?

  The temp, not even permanent, a temp.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  The temp. And, you know, there were a few chuckles.

• 21:00Emma Grede?

  Did he say yes?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:01Emma Grede?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And he gave it to me and, you know, it's like.

• 21:04Emma Grede?

  You were seen in that moment.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:06Emma Grede?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  But I.

• 21:07Emma Grede?

  Because I'd be like, this is confidential. No, you can't see it.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  No, he was just like, he was like, sure, read it. And so I read it. I took a red pen to it. It's, by the way, one of his favorite stories. If you meet him and ask him, he would tell you. I took an actual red pen to the script. I made changes in diction. I made comments about character development. And I brought it back to him two days later. And he was like, you did what? And literally was like, I remember the creative director's name is Desmond Hall. Okay, this is like 25 years ago. Desmond is sitting there and he's just like shaking his head, like, I can't believe the audacity of this girl.

• 21:45Emma Grede?

  Audacity.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  You know? And I was looking at Desmond like, oh shit, I think I'm gonna be fired. You know what I mean?

• 21:50Emma Grede?

  Yeah, that's what I would have thought.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Spike took the script, he went into his office and he came back out and he was like, you made some good notes, you should stay. That's when I knew. That's the moment I knew. That I was like, it really doesn't matter where you're sitting. It doesn't matter who the person is, how much education they have, what their experiences are. Because me, a completely inexperienced 22-year-old woman, who was just trying to beg for a job to eat her next lunch, had made comments on Spike Lee's film and he thought they were good.

• 22:27Speaker 02

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• 23:12Speaker 02

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• 23:23Speaker 03

  Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  And I'm Scott Galloway.

• 23:26Speaker 03

  And we want to tell you about Pivot, our twice-weekly podcast.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business, and politics.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Yes, and I keep you in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in the world of AI and social media or trying to keep up with whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give you our take on all of that.

• 23:47Speaker 04

  Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  And Scott is a prediction machine, gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  So if that sounds like a good time for you, especially Mr. "That's right", you can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week.

• 24:16Emma Grede?

  I'm obsessed with the fact that you have had these really unbelievable roles. And so you start with Spike. What is your first marketing role?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Oh gosh, well, this is a hard one. Yes, it is Pepsi technically. But that came because of the recommendation I'd made to Spike about hiring Beyonce.

• 24:35Emma Grede?

  This is it. I know this is a great story because Beyonce was not Beyonce then, to be fair, right?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  She was not Beyonce.

• 24:41Emma Grede?

  Beyonce beginning.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  That's correct. She had, she was actually coming out Destiny's Child and she was being panned like universally. Because, yeah, because people were like, ah, there's been no like solo artist who's come out of a girl group that succeeded. Except Diana Ross.

• 24:56Emma Grede?

  Oh, wow. That was a long time before.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 24:58Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 24:59Speaker 01

  You know, but I, I saw an artist.

• 25:01Emma Grede?

  So at this point, you're at Spike's and you decide to put Beyonce forward for something, right? Pepsi essentially noticed you. You are an assistant at this point. So how long did you spend with Spike?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Four years.

• 25:12Emma Grede?

  Four years. You're still an assistant, but Pepsi see you because you make this like baller move. You put Beyonce in the commercial and they're like, huh, over here.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, because here's the thing, and I think this is actually an important note, which is that you really do have to speak up for yourself. Because it wasn't like anybody was like, oh, let's give her credit.

• 25:30Emma Grede?

  No one's coming to give you credit. No, no, no. In fact, quite the opposite at that point. Somebody else probably needs to take credit for that because they're being paid to do it. Yes, of course they do.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Because it became a hit. And so the, the other trick is that you have to talk about yourself. Everybody says, oh, be humble, put your head down, do the work, they'll find you. That is bullshit.

• 25:51Emma Grede?

  Yeah, no one's finding you.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  No one finds you.

• 25:53Emma Grede?

  You have to advocate for yourself.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  You have to advocate for yourself. You have to say the words and you have to take credit for your work.

• 26:00Emma Grede?

  But both, talk to me about this because why, I talk about this all the time. Why do people get so uncomfortable, specifically women, and I'm going to say it specifically women with self advocating? Why do people say you're so full of yourself, like you're taking credit for X, Y, and Z? You should be, you know, humbled down. Why does that happen?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Well, because that's what society tells us. I mean, it's not, this is a behavior that's old as time. You know, it happened in the Garden of Eden with Eve. You know what I'm saying?

• 26:33Emma Grede?

  That's old.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I'm like, she was blamed for like humanity's sins. It started there, you know, and so, yes, of course, we've been told to take your, like, take a seat, be quiet, like, be grateful for the spot that you have. And so I'm not even upset that women think that way of themselves. Of course we do. We've been trained that way. I'm just saying, wake up. I'm saying, hey, look, they lied to you. And so this idea that like, we should be humble about our accomplishments and, you know, we'll seem like bitches if we say the thing, which is like, oh, I'm great. And when somebody compliments you and you say, I know, because you do know. So I'm sorry, why, why am I saying thank you? For what?

• 27:17Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, you didn't pay me a compliment. I wasn't already aware. You should tell me something I don't know, then I'll tell you thank you.

• 27:24Emma Grede?

  But has this backfired for you?

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Oh, of course.

• 27:26Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 27:27Emma Grede?

  Yeah, because obviously there's going to be times when people have been like that.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yes. No, it happened just recently. You know, I went on Jimmy Fallon's show, The Tonight Show.

• 27:38Emma Grede?

  Oh, we saw you. And you said, he said, you look so amazing. You're like, I do.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:43Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  And then he read off like my accomplishments and I said, yes, you're correct. And people said, oh, she should be more humble. Why is she so arrogant? And I said, all I said was, I know, and you are correct.

• 27:55Emma Grede?

  Why has this become such a cornerstone of your brand and who you are? And why is it so important to you? Because I'm also aware that you are raising a beautiful, young, amazing daughter. And I think she shines through. Like, I've, I've literally seen this little girl through your social and a little bit on the show. And I'm like, it's so clear that she is so self-possessed and she is a strong woman in the making.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:21Emma Grede?

  But I'm interested at why you've really doubled down on this. Because it's not an accident that you go around saying this all the time.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:29Emma Grede?

  It's no accident that you didn't go like, oh, thank you so much, like, you know, Jimmy. You were like, indeed, yes.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yes. I think mostly, where do I even start? It has happened to me so often. Where people are intentional in trying to put me down.

• 28:46Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Or dim my light, or make me feel like I should be in a different place. That it now is practiced that I buck against that. You know, it's like, it is now a habit that it doesn't matter what I'm doing, I must be bigger. I must advocate louder. I must be more possessed about who I am. Because if I don't do that, the ease with which people will put me in a corner is what society does every day to so many of us walking around. And we don't even know because we're so used to our chains.

• 29:27Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  But I'm over here rattling them and being like, no, I won't take it. And if I don't do that, maybe I won't even see my chains. And so I've got to do that every single day. I do it in the mirror. I do it when I'm on a Zoom call. I do it when I'm in person. I do it with my kid. I do it at the frickin volleyball game. I do it everywhere because the moment I stop is when somebody will try to put me down. And I refuse to let that happen.

• 30:01Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, I remember, I remember, Emma. Oh, my gosh, it was February twenty fourteen. My husband had been dead for two months. I came back from bereavement leave to have a review at work.

• 30:16Emma Grede?

  Timing.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I know.

• 30:18Emma Grede?

  You decided that.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  I had been off of work.

• 30:20Emma Grede?

  You missed the review, like, bring her in.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were like, well, you need to come in because we need to put into the system before the system shuts. And I'm like, I'm grieving.

• 30:27Emma Grede?

  We know how these corporates work.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  But okay, so I come in off of bereavement work to have my review. The year before had been a banner year for me in my career. Meaning that was the year that Beyonce did the Super Bowl halftime show, which I worked on. I had done, I had done so many things. I'd set up the next three years of Super Bowl performances. You know, the fifty million dollar deal that Pepsi did with the NFL. Like, I, I mean, it was a banner year. At the same time, half of that year, I was battling my husband's oncologist and my mother's oncologist as they both dealt with cancer. My mother survived, my husband did not. And I come in off of bereavement leave for a review. And my boss looks at me in the face and says, you know what, Boz?

• 31:11Speaker 01

  You didn't hit enough home runs in this past year. And so you don't get a promotion and you don't get a raise.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  And I was thinking, I don't know what more you do. How much more you show your brilliance. I was also thinking practically.

• 31:30Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  My husband had just died, had a four year old daughter. And I was like, I have to raise this child by myself. I'm looking down at the next fourteen years until she's eighteen and then four beyond that for college. I'm doing the math and saying, how do I even afford this?

• 31:42Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I need a raise. I need a job. I need a promo, like I need the things.

• 31:47Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  This is not even just about my ego. This is practical. And then I went home and I cried my eyes out, girl. I cried, I cried, I cried. I said, how did, how do they not see? How do they miss? And I realized that every time I was in a meeting when we're talking about the results, I said, we, all the time. We did this. My team did this. Da da da, I, we, all of the time. I never said I. And so how would they know? So I didn't even really blame my boss for not seeing it because I was like, I never took credit for anything. And I'm not saying at all that you should take credit for the things you'd not, you didn't do. Or that like it was a team effort and you're like, I, I, I, I didn't say that. But say the things that you did do.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Say the reason why you were important in the room.

• 32:34Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  The reason why the thing that happened, happened. Yes. And so after.

• 32:39Emma Grede?

  And you, and you directly attributed the fact that you weren't speaking.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:43Emma Grede?

  About yourself to the fact that you didn't get this pay rise and the promotion.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  I knew it.

• 32:48Emma Grede?

  But you also knew that that was the time to leave.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:50Emma Grede?

  You're like, I'm moving on.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I knew that like, look, I spent a decade there.

• 32:54Emma Grede?

  Yeah, and you've done all the things.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  And that if they didn't see me.

• 32:56Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  As the turnkey person, they were never gonna see it.

• 33:00Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  And sometimes that's what's gotta happen. You have to recognize the situation for what it is, even if it hurts. You have to say, hey, look, I can't give this another six months. And I don't care if that's a job or a relationship.

• 33:11Emma Grede?

  It's a great piece of advice.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  So.

• 33:13Emma Grede?

  Because I feel like so many of us get to that point in a job where you're like, one second, I'm doing the best work.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:19Emma Grede?

  I'm really shining, I'm meeting all the results, and yet there isn't place for me to grow here. So you're like, at that point, you make the decision.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:27Emma Grede?

  You have to let.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, and this is really.

• 33:29Emma Grede?

  You can't wait for the company.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, this is a hard thing, right? I'm saying it like a simply.

• 33:32Emma Grede?

  It's a very hard thing.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  But it's a very hard thing because it's not always obvious. Because people will say to you in your job, like, okay, give us another six months.

• 33:40Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Work on this one, two thing.

• 33:42Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  And then we'll see, we'll review again.

• 33:44Emma Grede?

  Yeah, we'll see you in the next cycle, like, totally.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Or it's like, again, I don't even just attribute it to work. I think this is a behavior that happens in relationships too. Where it's like, you know, you're with somebody and you want something to happen and they're like, oh, give me another six months to figure it out.

• 33:57Emma Grede?

  No, sir.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm like, get out of here with your six months. Six months from now, I'm gonna be on top of the world and you're gonna be crying that you're not with me. You know what I mean? And so that's what happened to me is that I simply looked at the situation in which I was in and said, this can no longer be my experience. If you don't want to give me a promotion, if you don't want to give me a raise, if you don't want to appreciate me, it is because of what I did. Not because of what we did.

• 34:26Emma Grede?

  But that's kind of radical self responsibility.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:31Emma Grede?

  And at the risk of, you know, a lot of people disagreeing with this.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 34:37Emma Grede?

  But that's very counter to where we are in the culture right now.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Oh, well, yeah.

• 34:41Emma Grede?

  No?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Of course, of course.

• 34:42Emma Grede?

  Right, no, not many people would say, this is my job now to go and change this.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, I just feel like, but we need it. We need more self-possessed people. I think we would be a better society for it. Because I think that.

• 34:58Emma Grede?

  Say more, both.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Well, because, again, like, we've been taught that, like, oh, this is community, community, community. But I'm like, I'm just gonna take it back to my African roots, okay? When you look at a village, everybody has a job, a responsibility. Yes, we're a village and we're a community. It takes a village to raise a child. We've all heard all of the quotes and the things, okay? However, everybody has a job in the village and in the society. Not everybody is doing everything at the same time. And so if you don't do your job well, the society falls. So what makes you think that you shouldn't be standing advocating in your role, in your space, that you are doing the thing excellently that is going to allow for the entire community to flourish?

• 35:43Emma Grede?

  Facts.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  So therefore, I'm like, we should all be self possessed. If you're doing your job and you're doing it really well, that means this person's gonna do their job and they're gonna do it really well.

• 35:53Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  So that's the way we should all behave.

• 35:55Emma Grede?

  So what do you say to people, because I'm sure you get so many people ask you, how do you start a career in marketing? What's your advice?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Well, here's the challenge with marketing, which is that it's one of those careers where I do believe in the ladder. You know, you have, you have to climb it.

• 36:09Emma Grede?

  You do.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Like, you have to start at the bottom, you have to learn the business, you have to have like, you know, small assignments that lead to the medium assignments, which is the large assignments, which leads to the extra large assignments, you know? It doesn't, you can't come in into the top. And so this idea that like, you know, you're just gonna come in and come up with this like brilliant plan is, eh. It may be.

• 36:30Emma Grede?

  Well, because you have no idea about execution.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and it really takes executing. You know, and making the mistakes and realizing that the messaging was wrong, or that the tal, the target was wrong, or, you know, it's like, ah, I could have had a funnier, faster exit, or a funnier and faster entry. Like, those things are built over time, and you don't, you can't do that quickly. And so it's like, if you want a career in marketing, start with yourself. Like, you're the first brand. So start there.

• 36:57Emma Grede?

  And you started with yourself.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:00Emma Grede?

  And you're, you're finishing with yourself right now.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Well, because I also feel that this goes, you know, into the conversation we're having about advocating for yourself. It's like, look, nobody was calling me badass until I call, started calling myself that.

• 37:14Emma Grede?

  They weren't?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  No, nobody said that.

• 37:16Emma Grede?

  You gave yourself that name?

• 37:17Speaker 01

  I sure did.

• 37:17Emma Grede?

  Oh, you really do have the old ass name.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  I do.

• 37:20Emma Grede?

  No one gives themselves a nickname. Who gives themselves a nickname? You.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  And you should too. I'm like, why?

• 37:27Emma Grede?

  Maybe I need to do a better marketer.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Why would we do that? Yes, yes, yes.

• 37:31Emma Grede?

  No, I just assumed someone called you that and you were like, yeah, I am like,

• 37:35Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 37:35Emma Grede?

  I'm gonna rumble with it.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  No, I called myself that.

• 37:36Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  I told people that.

• 37:38Emma Grede?

  Oh, of course you did.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:39Emma Grede?

  It's unsurprising after this thirty minute conversation.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  No, but it's true because here's the thing is that it's like, look, what is it that you're actually good at? You know, some of this, a lot of the conversation we're having is about self-awareness. You know, it's like, what is the thing that you're really good at? Because you're not good at everything. I'm not good at everything.

• 37:54Emma Grede?

  No one is.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  But I'm exceptional at a few things. And then that's the stuff that you like.

• 37:59Emma Grede?

  Get it. Totally.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  And I do.

• 38:01Emma Grede?

  Totally.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  I do think that we've also been lied to about this idea of like, you know, sort of like working on the stuff that you're not good at so that you can become.

• 38:09Emma Grede?

  Don't bother.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Why would you do that?

• 38:11Emma Grede?

  Don't bother.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  It's like be a specialist.

• 38:13Emma Grede?

  Be a specialist, have ruthless prioritization.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:16Emma Grede?

  Just be narrow. We, I mean, we spoke to Melody Hobson in this podcast and I love, I mean,

• 38:22Speaker 01

  We love her.

• 38:23Emma Grede?

  I mean, we love Melody.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  How do we not love her?

• 38:24Emma Grede?

  But she talks about having and like this is like, she is a specialist. It's like she is excellent at finance. She understands finance and from there you get to do many, many different things. But I feel like, again, it's a little bit in the culture to be a bit of a rapper slash actor now, right?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Emma Grede?

  I only think that that happens to you when you are excellent at something. Then you have the choice as your career grows and as you get better and you get more opportunities, then you can go a bit broader. But in the beginning of your career, it's like you've just got to be really.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, I actually believe that it's like, look, there, there is a trait that you have that can be expressed in many different ways. That's actually the way I think about specializing. I, my specialty is storytelling. That is what I am excellent at. And so it can come across in marketing, it comes across as an author, it comes across as a TV personality. I'm a storyteller and that is what I'm going to stick to.

• 39:18Emma Grede?

  When did you understand that about yourself and when were you able to give yourself that label?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  I think I understood that very early, actually.

• 39:25Emma Grede?

  Because marketing is all about storytelling, right? It's telling the most compelling stories. And being able to communicate that in a myriad of ways.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. But I think I knew that about myself very early on, but I didn't know it as a career. Probably I would say until that moment with Spike. When I could see Beyonce for who she was. You know, and be able to tell Spike that like, hey, look, this is why we should look at her. Because X, Y and Z thing. And that five second story is what then made him say, okay, you know what? I'll go watch that.

• 39:56Emma Grede?

  Does Beyonce know this about you?

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:57Emma Grede?

  Yeah, how amazing. That's so cool, because you worked with her for a long time after that as well, this relationship. It's a lot of deals. And Super Bowl.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:05Emma Grede?

  I mean, absolutely insane. And I feel like you've worked for such unbelievable people. And that has like a way of rubbing off on you, but they're also like, you work for a lot of founders. You work for Travis, you work for Reed, you work for Spike.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:20Emma Grede?

  I feel like there was maybe another founder in there somewhere that you worked with. Jimmy.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Jimmy.

• 40:24Emma Grede?

  Jimmy at Beats.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Ari Manuel.

• 40:26Emma Grede?

  Oh, Ari.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:27Emma Grede?

  Ari.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  So many, so many.

• 40:31Emma Grede?

  So many men, so many formidable men.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  Interesting characters.

• 40:34Emma Grede?

  So many interesting characters. What an elegant way to put that. What did you learn from these like powerhouse men?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Well, first of all, I think at the very bottom of it, all of them are extraordinarily passionate.

• 40:46Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  About their thing.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Not about everything, about their thing.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  The thing.

• 40:53Emma Grede?

  Passion.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Passion.

• 40:55Emma Grede?

  Like real passion.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Like real passion, like we will scrap over this thing, this one thing. It doesn't matter what, the thing.

• 41:02Emma Grede?

  I always find that so impressive, don't you?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:04Emma Grede?

  If you care so much about something.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know? And then they surrounded themselves with people who also believe in their thing.

• 41:15Emma Grede?

  You know? Smart. Simple, but smart.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, simple but smart, because the thing is that it wasn't necessarily just about like paying people enough money to be with you. It was that extra sauce of like finding people who are as passionate about your thing. Maybe not more passionate, but as passionate at least. And then surrounding themselves with those people. Now, everybody else who falls outside of that and as the company grows, okay, whatever, right?

• 41:42Emma Grede?

  But you're a media.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. The people who are talking to you every day, who are in your ear, who are telling you you're great or who are telling you suck, must have as equal passion for the thing.

• 41:55Emma Grede?

  Oh, I couldn't agree more.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  That you love.

• 41:57Emma Grede?

  Honestly, this morning, so I started my day in a big fight with my chief product officer about pricing. And she was so passionate. What this woman doesn't know about the price of jeans, it's not worth knowing. And I just backed down because I was like, you know what? And I had to push and push and push. But it made me think, I was like, you are so good at your job.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:16Emma Grede?

  You can fight with me.

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:18Emma Grede?

  For thirty five minutes about pricing.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 42:20Emma Grede?

  And I was like, yeah. And it just, again, it made me so happy because I was like, it's amazing that you know this much.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:26Emma Grede?

  But I think you're right. It's like, the people you surround yourself with, the inner circle is really important.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Really, really important.

• 42:32Emma Grede?

  I mean, I want to talk to you about the business that you've started and I I'm so obsessed with staffing and I think it's okay. But before we move on to that, what do you think, when you think about what will guarantee a marketing moment, like a moment in culture, and you've had so many of these moments? What do you think the key, like, the keys are to like crafting an incredible marketing campaign or a marketing moment are?

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Oof. It probably has to start with curiosity, like, deep curiosity for the moment. You know, because I think the thing that happens.

• 43:04Emma Grede?

  For the moment in the culture, you mean?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  The moment in the culture, like right now. There are marketing campaigns that were so successful along my career that I can check off and like tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, that would not work today.

• 43:14Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  You know?

• 43:16Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  And there are things that are going to happen tomorrow and in five months and in ten years that I don't know yet. And the key to being successful in those moments is deep curiosity about what is happening right now. And people always want to say, oh, what happens in five years? And that's why I don't make those plans.

• 43:33Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Because I'm like, if you plan for that, you're going to fail, you know? Because how would you know what's going to happen in five years?

• 43:38Emma Grede?

  Very interesting.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  I remember in twenty twenty, right at the start of the pandemic, I took a job, my job at Netflix, which became, I didn't know then, but was going to become my last corporate job. And.

• 43:50Emma Grede?

  Are you sure, Bose?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm positive.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Although who knows what happens.

• 43:55Emma Grede?

  Who knows? You don't know. You don't know, girl.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. Five years, maybe I changed my mind. But I remember having like this.

• 44:03Emma Grede?

  You do have a little bit of a plan.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Oh, see.

• 44:05Emma Grede?

  Girl.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  It's more of a feeling.

• 44:08Emma Grede?

  It's a feeling.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  It's a feeling.

• 44:09Emma Grede?

  It's a feeling. We know that you go by your gut.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  But you know, the thing is that like I kept having these conversations with all these senior leaders who, yeah, everybody's panicking, right? And they're just like, oh my God, we're gonna do our strat plans that we did for three years and for five years or in the shitter because we don't know what to do. And everything is shut down and bye bye. People are waiting for two weeks, then they're waiting for six months. And it was like, oh my God, a year has passed. And it was only the people who were like, okay, what do we do today?

• 44:33Emma Grede?

  Yeah, that won.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  That were winning.

• 44:35Emma Grede?

  That won.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  And so my point is that like, again.

• 44:38Emma Grede?

  You are so right about that. The only thing that had cut through in COVID was like the things that were ingrained in the moment.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  In the moment.

• 44:45Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  In the moment.

• 44:46Emma Grede?

  Yeah, COVID marketing was special.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. And let me tell you.

• 44:49Emma Grede?

  Them days.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, look, that's where you separated the goods from the grays.

• 44:53Emma Grede?

  Ain't it the truth?

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you had to be unafraid.

• 44:57Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Of being totally in the moment and not worrying about what happens in three months.

• 45:01Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  You know, and being like, okay, well, maybe we are all outside again in three months and maybe we're not. But today, we are inside.

• 45:08Emma Grede?

  We're inside.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  And so this is what we're gonna do today.

• 45:09Emma Grede?

  And this is the feeling. This is what we have to go on.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:12Emma Grede?

  Okay, so being like obsessed with the culture and the moment.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Yes, and curiosity, deep curiosity. About people, about the moment, about like the product, deep curiosity about this very moment in time and what everybody is doing around this moment. And if you have that, you can craft anything that will win.

• 45:42Emma Grede?

  I heard you say somewhere that your ambition. How did you say this? I want to make sure that I get it right. I think that you didn't say this. You actually said that you probably wouldn't do it all again if you repeat it to your career. And I wonder what your ambition has actually cost you.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  Ah, I mean.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Look, I think that, not I think, I know that I wouldn't do this all over again. Not because I'm ashamed, or I don't like it, or that I haven't had a great time in this career. I certainly have, but why not do something else?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, why would I not explore a different avenue? Like if, right now, God came down and said, Boz, you know, you have the choice at this moment. You can retain all this information you have right now and start over.

• 46:36Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  Do it again. I'd be like, nah, give me something else. And I'm gonna become a prima ballerina, you know, or an Olympic, like gymnast.

• 46:47Emma Grede?

  I really enjoy you as both, actually.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it'd be fantastic.

• 46:50Emma Grede?

  Definitely both.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  You know, do something else. And it is, again, not because like I'm not enjoying this, or I don't think I'm great at it, or that I haven't had a good time, but it's just like, the idea that we have so many destinies.

• 47:05Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  And that you're simply just choosing one and going with that is what I firmly believe. I believe I would have been great at any number of things.

• 47:15Emma Grede?

  No doubt.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  But this happened, and it's happening.

• 47:19Emma Grede?

  Was there a cost?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:20Emma Grede?

  For you?

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 47:22Emma Grede?

  Because when I got that, when I heard that, I kind of equated it with the fact that it had been so hard, that you had broke so many barriers, that you had,

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:31Emma Grede?

  you know, completely, I guess, changed the way that we think about who gets to have those jobs. That it had been so heavy and so hard on you that you wouldn't do it again.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't it, it wasn't that at all. Because I actually think that regardless of the past, I would have had that anyway. That it would have cost me that anyway.

• 47:48Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  You know, and that's not a morbid thing for me. I think that is simply where I am, where my spirit is and this time that I'm in. You know, that regardless if I wanted to be the prima ballerina or the Olympic gymnast, that I would have had to have given up a lot, I would have had to. Bear the scars of like a lot of wounds. I I believe that that would have been my journey anyway.

• 48:13Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  And and I don't I don't feel badly about that, actually.

• 48:17Emma Grede?

  Have there been a lot of trade offs for you?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:20Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Oh, a ton of them. Some of the simple things are things that you probably assume, like relationships, you know, both romantic and platonic.

• 48:28Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say in some regard, privacy and also maybe some naivete about people.

• 48:37Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  About what things are.

• 48:38Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  You know, that.

• 48:40Emma Grede?

  It's hard to know. Until you're in those situations, I mean, how would you, how would you know?

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like, you know, how good and how bad people can be is an innocence that sometimes I wish I still had. I don't have that, because I've seen it.

• 48:55Emma Grede?

  You've seen the other side of it. You know that, Amra.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Gross.

• 48:57Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  And scary.

• 48:59Emma Grede?

  And very scary.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Very, very scary.

• 49:00Emma Grede?

  Very scary.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Emma Grede?

  You speak about like your gut guiding you, and I wonder if your gut has ever led you wrong.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:07Emma Grede?

  Like as a, it hasn't.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Never.

• 49:09Emma Grede?

  I feel like as a woman, I always lean in to my gut.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:13Emma Grede?

  But it hasn't always been exactly right.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Really?

• 49:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah, there's been, I definitely feel like there's been a couple of times I was like, well, that decision was a little off key, but I don't know. Like, I look at you and I feel like. Yeah, like I feel, no, I feel like more specifically for work. Sometimes I feel like I've let ego, you know, it's like I'm on a run, I'm on a tear and I'm like, pow, pow, pow. Oh shit, like, do you know what I mean? Like I've bitten off more than I could chew.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  But that's different.

• 49:36Emma Grede?

  Or, but you know, my gut told me to do it. Like, I I was following my, you know, I was following my intuition. I was following what I felt was the right thing to do for me, and it wasn't for whatever reason.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  See, now for me, I do separate like sort of my intuition, my ego and, you know, desires.

• 49:54Emma Grede?

  Tell me how you think about that.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Well, because I don't think that desire and intuition are the same thing.

• 49:59Emma Grede?

  No, they are not.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  You know, and ego and intuition. Those are so many layers. And intuition is so pure.

• 50:05Emma Grede?

  Hmm.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  That it can't lead you wrong. I think sometimes what happens for us is that we do let our ego lead or our desires lead, and we mask it as intuition, and it's not. And that's when you have to be honest with yourself and be like, actually, that was not my intuition. That's my ego. That was not my intuition, that's my desire.

• 50:22Emma Grede?

  Facts.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  That was not my intuition, that was my hope.

• 50:24Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  Hope. Hope. That ugly, terrible thing. You know what I mean? It's like. I appreciate that. Yeah. You know, your intuition is not that. I, I, I do believe that my intuition has often screamed at me and I have made a different decision.

• 50:39Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  But my intuition, when listened to, never has led me wrong.

• 50:43Emma Grede?

  You ever get into one of these dream positions and it wasn't all it was cracked up to be?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 50:48Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Every single one.

• 50:49Emma Grede?

  Really? What do you mean, every single one? No.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  No, that's the truth.

• 50:54Emma Grede?

  Well, because there are always something else.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  There's always something. There's always something. And, but by the way, that doesn't mean that like, I feel like it was the wrong thing.

• 51:03Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  It was just that like, you know, you walk in and you're just like, ooh, this is gonna be fantastic. And then it's like, no, okay.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? But the thing is that it's always true.

• 51:15Emma Grede?

  Do you, are you the type of person that goes, I'm gonna change that? Or are you accepting of what it is and you work within it?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Okay, so again, here, here's the controversial thing.

• 51:24Emma Grede?

  Give it to me.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  It's all always about me. So what is it that I'm learning?

• 51:30Emma Grede?

  I'm just gonna.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  I'm like, no, but what am I learning from this thing? You know? Look, I've been accused of a lot of things and this again goes back to like, you know, people have said that I am selfish in my jobs. You know, that I come in and that I care more about myself than, than the brand and they are correct. You could say that about me all day long.

• 51:51Emma Grede?

  All day long.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  And I will never deny it.

• 51:53Emma Grede?

  I think you have to be selfish.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  You have to be. What are you talking about? When people say that, like, I was always so confused. Oh, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. I am. What are you even talking about? They're like, oh, but it used to be like a huge criticism that people thought they were getting me for, to be like, you know, well, you shouldn't hire her because, you know, she thinks she's bigger than the brand. She loves herself more than she'll love this company. You were goddamn right.

• 52:16Emma Grede?

  So what was your retort to that? Like, how'd you get the job anyway?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Well, because I'm the best in what I do and I have the confidence of that. So if you want to make this company better, you're gonna hire me. And you know why I'm so good? Because I know I'm so good. That's because I put myself first, always. And so when I'm in the job, I'm like, no, I don't think that this company is better than me. I think this company is gonna teach me to make me better than I am today. And I'm going to make you better. Because I am in the pursuit of making myself better.

• 52:46Emma Grede?

  And you can do the two things.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely, but they're, they go hand in hand. They have to be.

• 52:50Emma Grede?

  Of course they go hand in hand.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  They have to be.

• 52:52Emma Grede?

  Of course they go hand in hand.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  So I get to Uber, okay, hired by Travis Kalanick, who's the founder and CEO.

• 52:58Emma Grede?

  Travis was out, right?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  Travis was out two weeks after I started, okay? But I come into the company and we had a very honest conversation about that.

• 53:06Emma Grede?

  And you were Travis's choice?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:07Emma Grede?

  So you were hired by Travis and then Travis is out two weeks later?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right.

• 53:10Emma Grede?

  So then you're the person everyone's at?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, they're looking at me crazy, okay? But the thing is that like, I was very honest with Travis. I was like, hey, look, like, you know, I had, was coming off of like, big wins off of Apple, right? And I said, look, your company's in trouble. And I can help you turn around this brand because I know what I'm doing when it comes to crafting brand stories and being able to position things to people in a way that they had perhaps not thought about. And the way you're talking about this company is just wrong. You know, you're talking about tech, tech, tech, and they care about emotion, emotion, emotion. And so we're gonna craft it differently. But in doing so, I am going to be in the front. I'm the one who's gonna tell everybody. And I'm going to make myself better. Because I'm going to be crafting it every single day.

• 53:57Emma Grede?

  And you say this in the interview? Like, you're saying this as you're going through the rungs of Uber to get hired?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  You have to be honest.

• 54:05Emma Grede?

  And they're accepting that?

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yes, because the problem people have is that they come in and they lie.

• 54:09Emma Grede?

  Did you, do you think you've ever lost out on roles going in with that same rhetoric?

• 54:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 54:14Emma Grede?

  Did you think you went somewhere else that you didn't end up working? They were like, no, boss, this is about...

• 54:18Speaker 01

  You know why? And mom didn't tell you this, this is gonna sound crazy too, okay? Because I've never had to interview for a job that I knew I wasn't gonna be.

• 54:25Emma Grede?

  Oh.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I mean, you know what I mean? No, it's true, because the people have come looking for me.

• 54:34Emma Grede?

  So at that point, you know you're in?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so why should I lie to you? You came here, ask me. About what you want me to do for you. So why would I lie to you?

• 54:44Emma Grede?

  So you're like, I'm gonna be the front person. I'm gonna be the one that takes this message.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:48Emma Grede?

  And I'm gonna put it out there and I'm gonna put me in the center of it.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:52Emma Grede?

  And that's what you get.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  I'm gonna talk about me. And so when that New York Times cover came out and said, is this the woman that would save Uber?

• 54:57Emma Grede?

  I remember it.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:59Emma Grede?

  I remember it.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  That's right. And I'd like somebody to argue and be like, oh, she shouldn't have been there. It should have been a, an engineer, it should have been this person. No, fuck that. It was me. Because how else was the company gonna change? Wasn't there something wrong with the algorithm?

• 55:11Emma Grede?

  Mm-mm.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  It wasn't there was something wrong with the algorithm?

• 55:12Emma Grede?

  No, no, we were all getting our taxis on time, right away.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Everybody was getting it. So they're fantastic. The engineers were beautiful, amazing, innovative, smart, the smartest in the business, I believe.

• 55:22Emma Grede?

  No, it was the reputation. It was like.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  It was the brand. And what was I, the chief brand officer? And so why would, why would my face not be on there?

• 55:31Emma Grede?

  And you only stayed there for a year, though?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:33Emma Grede?

  What happened? You just were like, oh, it was chaos.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  It was chaos. And again, this is why I'm saying it has to be about me and it has to be about you. Because at some point, the Apple cart was upset. And I knew that if I didn't save myself, I would drown there. Not because the company was gonna drown, but because I was gonna drown. And so sometimes you do have to make the decision.

• 55:56Emma Grede?

  You just have to know when it's time to leave.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's just like, look, the company's gonna go public and this is gonna happen and that's gonna happen and these, this money is gonna come and blah, blah, blah. But I was like, no, stay here one more day and I die. And that's not worth it to me.

• 56:09Emma Grede?

  No.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  Because also it's like, again, this goes back to the whole confidence of it all. I'm like, well, I can get another job. There's all kind of people calling me all the time.

• 56:17Emma Grede?

  And you never worried about reputation? You were like, no, because your reputation was intact.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  Yes, my reputation is my work.

• 56:24Emma Grede?

  So what do you think, when you look at this, again, extraordinary career? What are the things that you got right? Like, when you think about, because you clearly got a lot right. You don't have those jobs with those companies, one after the other, after the other. It's like.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  And be trash.

• 56:40Emma Grede?

  And be trash. Or even be mediocre.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 56:43Emma Grede?

  Or even be like, you know, have a massive team because you can't. It's not like you take the people from Apple and put them at Uber and the people from Uber and put them at WME and so on and so forth. So what do you think you got right?

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Well, I think I got leadership right very early.

• 56:56Emma Grede?

  Okay.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  You know, being able to move a group of people and have them believe. But again, this goes back to storytelling. Because my storytelling isn't just about the external story, but it's the internal story.

• 57:07Emma Grede?

  Oh, it's just as important?

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:08Emma Grede?

  Just as important.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  And so again, just using the example of Uber, it's like when I got there, people at the company didn't want to wear their Uber T-shirts to the grocery store. They didn't want to wear, and we went to cocktail parties and went and tell people that we worked at the company. And so the internal story was actually more important than the external story. And so it's like the storytelling of like why it's important for you to do the work. And to do your job really well was critical.

• 57:36Emma Grede?

  Critical.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  And I would, I would even tell you this, which is, you know, a very hard story. But when I left Pepsi to go to Beats, which was just after Peter had died. An article had come out that said, you know, Pepsi's Bozoma St. John going to Beats by Dre, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it was like, you know, in the industry, it was just like, almost like a step down, right?

• 57:59Emma Grede?

  Oh, it was seen as a step down because Beats wasn't Beats at that point.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  No, and Pepsi is like.

• 58:03Emma Grede?

  Pepsi's Pepsi.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Marketing king, you know?

• 58:05Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  And, and it's like, if you wanted to have a career as a marketer, that's not what you would do. You know, you would stay at Pepsi and rise. In any case, I was in intense grief. Um, my reputation was really big because of the things I'd done with Beyonce and Super Bowl. And, you know, and there was like Bruno Mars and Katy Perry and like, it was.

• 58:26Emma Grede?

  Glory days.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Gaga, it was hit after hit after hit. And so I'm coming in and the marketing team is fledgling, you know, but there is a, a group of them. It's about 50 people or so, and they're people from all other corners of the company. Who are coming in, crowding into the boardroom to hear me talk for the first time and say what we are going to do. About, you know, Beats music and how we're going to take over the industry, right? And in the morning, I wake up and I'm just like, I can't stop crying. I've left my daughter in New York. I'm terrified. All of the grief and the sadness is still there. It's very raw. And I'm thinking, what am I gonna tell these people? Because I don't even know what I'm talking about. Like, I don't know what the future of music is. I don't even know what, I don't know about this technology.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  And so I'm walking into the boardroom and like sweating, my armpits are itching. And I'm like, oh my God, like, what am I even gonna say? And I decided to tell them the story about what my last year had been like. For the last six months had been like, for the last three months had been like. And I said, I am a new widow and I can barely breathe. And every time I open my eyes, I'm looking at a nightmare. Not just of like the past six months, but the next six months. I don't know what I'm gonna do. But I'm here because I'm desperate. I have to win. I have to win in this job. I have to win in my career. I don't have any other options. And so who's with me?

• 59:55Emma Grede?

  I'd be like, I wanna work for that lady.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  I won an army, that did.

• 1:00:00Emma Grede?

  Course you did. Of course you did.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  You know, and even to the point where um, last year I held.

• 1:00:06Emma Grede?

  Because you showed them your vulnerability. You showed them your true self, but you showed them that you could not lose.

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Emma Grede?

  And you had to come here and be excellent. Yes.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Like who, like, you know, it was like, in that moment, yes, of course, I was being vulnerable and I was, you know, telling people what was happening. But also, I was telling them that I was going to scrap. Like, I was going to fight for this. And I had to win. So if you wanna win, then you're with me. Don't go with the person who's over here trying to get a paycheck. I'm not just here for a paycheck. I have to win. For my own survival, I have to win. And with that, that story is what then allowed me to lead a group of people who had to break down doors, who had to do things sometimes wrong, who didn't know what was gonna happen in six months, who had to convince Apple that we should be acquired,

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  who had to walk into Cupertino and all those people who thought they were better than us and show them that actually we had a point of view.

• 1:01:10Emma Grede?

  You need us, yeah.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  And so my version of leadership is that, and I think that's what I got right a lot. And therefore, I was able to walk into room after room after room after room and convince people that they should follow me. They should do their work and do it well, do it better than anybody else.

• 1:01:37Speaker 05

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• 1:02:12Emma Grede?

  I feel like your presence is and has been, is, has been, will continue to be a challenge for some people, right? You are in rooms where you show up with the earring and the top and the stomach and all the things, and you're unapologetic.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  You should ask the housewives.

• 1:02:29Emma Grede?

  When you could stand with the housewives and make the housewives look a little dull, like, then you know. But I'm talking about when you're in a boardroom and you are turning up as your whole self. So how do you manage the criticism and still show up as yourself so unapologetically?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  You know what? Okay, now, look, I keep saying things and I know that it sounds simple and it's really hard.

• 1:02:49Emma Grede?

  Now, I'm just gonna put together like a reel.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  I'm like, this is real time, y'all. Here's the thing. No, but you have to be, not you, I have to be so in love with myself that nothing anybody says is ever gonna pierce that veil. It is the same way I was at 13. When I look at myself, I'm just like, God, you are, your nose is perfect. Your hair is amazing. You're so damn funny. You're so smart. Why are they not laughing at you? Why do they say that your hair is too nappy? Why do they say that? So weird.

• 1:03:31Emma Grede?

  They must be blind.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  They're so weird.

• 1:03:33Emma Grede?

  And you really think that and you really believe that?

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I really believe that.

• 1:03:36Emma Grede?

  So what do you do? I'm sure you must have friends, women, colleagues, people that have worked for you over the years, who don't have that.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:43Emma Grede?

  How do you take like just a little, just a little pinky of those?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Emma Grede?

  And do that for yourself?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, I should give it to you like this, which is I do that with my daughter. Right? I remember once, oh my gosh, Emma, I was in Target once. Okay? No fault of Target, but I was in Target. And my daughter, my daughter was probably two, maybe three, and she was sitting in the front part of the cart, pushing it. And we were, I don't even know what I was shopping for, but we're walking and I was looking at her now. I was just like, gosh, you're so pretty. You know, I was like, you are so, so pretty. And this woman turns to me and she was just like, you know, you should tell her she's smart, not just pretty. Because girls need to know they're smart. Ooh, the way I rounded on this person.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, how dare you? How dare you? She knows she's smart, but the world is going to tell her she's not pretty. And it is my job to instill within her every day that she's beautiful. And not just beautiful, the most beautiful. This morning, when I woke up my daughter, hey, she's now almost sixteen. Girl, sixteen, sixteen. The alarm goes off and I'm just like, does she have ears? I don't understand what's going on.

• 1:05:03Emma Grede?

  Shake him to wake him.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Is that, you know?

• 1:05:06Emma Grede?

  Gets to that age.

• 1:05:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm like, well, y'all, it's time to wake up. And she like rolled over and just looked at her face and I was like, God, you're so beautiful. And I was like, look at this nose. It's like it's mine, by the way. So gorgeous. It's like that chin, that's a Saint John chin. That's not mine, but it's gorgeous. Look at these cheekbones. Now, that's grandma. She got those cheekbones and you got them too. That's so great. Yeah, she's just like laying there. She's like, "Mom!" And I'm like, you know. But the thing is that like, I and she and other women, you have to be so in love with yourself. And yes, I'm using beauty as just Mm-hmm. one of the things, but it's like,

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  you have to deeply love yourself in order to withstand the criticism that will come to you. Because everybody will criticize you. Your family will, your friends will, your business associates will, the world will, social media will, we know that for sure. But you've got to be so in love with yourself that you turn and look at that criticism and say, "Why would they think that?" And it has to be so foreign to you and so shocking that you cannot accept it. Because why would you? It doesn't make any sense. They must be crazy. And you have to get to that level. And so if you're not there, do it. That is the assignment. Practice. Do it every day.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  You must do it. You must do it. You must look at yourself in the mirror. You must tell yourself, until you believe it, you must do it. It is not going to come from anybody else. I'm not going to be able to tell you, like, here are the five steps to walking into a room with confidence. You must believe it. You must know that when you walk into the room, it is different because you are there. And if somebody else was there, it would not be the same. You must believe it. I believe it. I think I come into this podcast and it is different because I'm It is. I know! It is. It's just a fact. It's just a fact. But you have to believe it. You have to believe it. You have to believe it. And if there's like one thing that I wish everybody would understand, it is that.

• 1:07:15Speaker 01

  Find it, work on it. And until you do, nothing that you do will ever feel fulfilling. Because somebody's always gonna tell you that it's wrong. Somebody's always gonna tell you you should have done differently.

• 1:07:27Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Somebody's gonna tell you that that sparkle doesn't work for you.

• 1:07:29Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  And you wore it because you were like, I'm gonna wear this for bows and it's gonna be cute. And she's gonna love it, and I do. But you believe that, and that's why you put that on today. If you didn't believe it, you wouldn't have put it on. You didn't think that I wouldn't love it, you wouldn't have put it on.

• 1:07:42Emma Grede?

  I mean, I was raised that way. You know, I was raised looking in the mirror. First of all, with a, let me just say this, first of all, before I say looking in the mirror. I was raised, just as you do with your daughter, my mom told me we were beautiful.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Emma Grede?

  That our curly hair was so beautiful, that my big two front teeth were the most beautiful. That my, you know, I have this huge birthmark that comes like right across me.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Do you really?

• 1:08:09Emma Grede?

  Oh, my God, it's like so huge, like right across my shoulder, right across my breast. And my mom said to me, you know, Emma, if I ever had to choose you just from your shoulders, I would know exactly which one you were. And in my head, I was like, yeah, that makes so much sense to me.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  So much sense.

• 1:08:22Emma Grede?

  Because I really believed it, and I do the same with my kids now. And of course, I talk about how smart they are, and of course, I talk about how talented they are, and they could do anything that they want. Yeah. But actually, for women, so much of how we feel is attributed to our looks.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Emma Grede?

  How we step into this world, and that's just a fact. Anyone that says anything different is a liar.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Let me actually make this point too, which is that I do think you have to be specific. You know, I think otherwise, it just feels pithy. You know, if you're too broad about it, like you're not just beautiful because you're beautiful. It's like, why?

• 1:08:55Emma Grede?

  Yeah, why?

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Because of your birthmark.

• 1:08:57Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Because of your two front teeth, because of your curly hair, you know? And that's why I'm specific when I'm telling Leil why she's beautiful. And I'm specific when I'm telling her why she's smart.

• 1:09:06Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  And I'm specific with the examples so that she can put on that.

• 1:09:11Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  And recognize for herself.

• 1:09:12Emma Grede?

  Well, because also people have specificity when they put you down. Right? Because I remember in school, it was always about I had this line in my lip, and they would come up with things. But my mom had already said to me, that line is the most beautiful line I've ever seen. You lot are dumb. I was like, this line is so special. But again, the specificity is is really important. I love you. I literally love you for saying that so much. I really do. All right, I'm gonna go back to marketing because I do feel like I'm I'm gonna rinse you for all of this information. I'm I'm there, don't you worry. I'm I'm gonna get that. I'm gonna go slightly over, but I I promise you I'll get there.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, we're having too much fun.

• 1:09:46Emma Grede?

  Yeah, we're having too much fun because we've got so much to say in this whole thing. All right, let's do, let's talk about this. If someone is launching a brand tomorrow, what is the first thing or what should they think about from a marketing point of view?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Okay, the first thing they should think about, well, sorry, there's two, sorry.

• 1:10:03Emma Grede?

  No, sorry.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Okay, two things. And and they are sort of like always the yin and the yang, which is that, one, it's like, what is so special about the thing? There has to be something. Think of one thing that is special about the thing that you're launching or the brand that you're creating. And sit on that, like, make that the centerpiece. On the other hand, who are you talking to? Has to be very specific also. It can't be everybody because that's just not how the world works. It's not the way that we talk. And so those two things together are then what's going to make the stability and the foundation of the brand. It will weather all of the storms and will help you to make decisions about the brand. So it's like if it doesn't celebrate the one thing, if it doesn't talk to the one person, then that thing can't work. Then you don't do it.

• 1:10:49Emma Grede?

  It's so simple.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:50Emma Grede?

  Right? You're talking about what is USP? What is your audience?

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:54Emma Grede?

  And really, really figuring those two things out. How do you even make a campaign that kind of sparks conversation and cuts through noise now? When there's so much out there.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Um, well, because I think all it really takes, and I know, again, it sounds so simple, is that it has to be true to those two things. You know, because it's like, everybody's like, oh, let's make a viral campaign. And it's like, well, first of all, it's like, what's gonna work for you is not gonna work for the person. I know everybody thinks they know this academically. They don't behave that way. You know, so I'm just like, well, what's special about this one thing? What's special about this mic right here? And and who is going to use it? And then do make a campaign that talks to that. That talks to that specific thing that is so great about this and talks to the person that you're trying to talk to. And it has to be narrow. It is counterintuitive because you're like, you know, shouldn't we make this microphone for everybody with lips? Everybody who has a voice.

• 1:11:46Emma Grede?

  Never, never that.

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  No, you can't do that. And so, but it it becomes difficult when you're like, oh, but I've got to sell.

• 1:11:53Emma Grede?

  Well, because people always imagine that you're shrinking your audience, right? If you're making jeans for curvy bodies, I want all the straight bodies. I don't worry about that. Have your specificity, do your one thing and do it perfectly and own that customer.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right. Because I always also compare it to like, if you and I left here, right? And tomorrow night, I'm at a cocktail party and you walk in. And all of a sudden, you've got a Nashville accent.

• 1:12:15Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm. Oh, I'll try.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  And I'm like, who the hell is that? Oh, that's not Emma. You know what I mean? And then the person you talk to, they know you as your Nashville accent and then they hear this conversation. And they're like, what the hell was she doing? What was that? What was that accent she was talking about? Now they don't trust you. But it wasn't like you were lying to anybody. You said the same thing here. You said the same thing there. You didn't lie, but it was in your behavior. And so when you think about brands, it's like that. You know, what is the truth of the thing? And then say it honestly. Because the person who you speak to with your beautiful accent is going to still understand you. So why did you have to switch it?

• 1:12:56Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  You didn't.

• 1:12:57Emma Grede?

  No, it's so true.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Now they don't trust you.

• 1:12:59Emma Grede?

  Now they don't trust you.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  And that's what happens with brands all the time.

• 1:13:01Emma Grede?

  All the time.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  I needed to connect with that person from Nashville. Well, no, you could have done it with the accent you have and you'd be fine.

• 1:13:06Emma Grede?

  It's so true. So what do you do when things go wrong nowadays? Because we see so many brands put a foot wrong. And it's kind of also easy to offend in this like moment of social media. What should you do when you're just?

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:19Emma Grede?

  You're making a mistake.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Okay, here's the thing. All right, now. This, see, now I gotta get like psychological, so I'm just like, well, was it a mistake? Okay? Because first of all, you have to identify, was it a mistake? Or were people just upset at your choice? You know what I'm saying? And it's like, if it was a mistake.

• 1:13:37Emma Grede?

  I could take that one right to church right now. Was it a mistake? Did you say something wrong? Or did people just not like it?

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Or these people didn't like it, you know? Because the truth is that like, if you made a mistake and you know it's a mistake, then you apologize immediately.

• 1:13:51Emma Grede?

  Apologize immediately for the mistake.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  And make corrected action immediately.

• 1:13:54Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  But if you identify that it wasn't a mistake, people just don't like it. Then you don't apologize. It's, it works brilliantly for crisis management, by the way. It's like, did you do something wrong? Or did people just not like it? If you did something wrong, apologize right now. You don't just get up and start apologizing just because people didn't like it, but you didn't do anything wrong. You don't believe that.

• 1:14:16Emma Grede?

  No.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  So you're gonna behave differently.

• 1:14:18Emma Grede?

  Exactly, which is crazy. And you go back against everything that you believe in.

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:14:22Emma Grede?

  And no one trusts you. And it's all about trust at the end of the day.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:14:25Emma Grede?

  All right, now I'm gonna move on and I'm dying to talk about this new business of yours.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 1:14:31Emma Grede?

  Because when I saw the announcement of this, first of all, I was like, genius, genius, genius. Timing, timing, timing, everything, all the things in a line.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:38Emma Grede?

  But I am so happy that you have launched your own brand. It's called Eve by Boas, is that right?

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  That's right, that's right.

• 1:14:44Emma Grede?

  I mean, you need to tell me everything, but the thing I am most impressed about.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Emma Grede?

  Is that you put your own money into this.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:51Emma Grede?

  Right?

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. How terrifying.

• 1:14:53Emma Grede?

  Oh, my gosh, yeah, how terrifying, indeed.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Very, very terrifying.

• 1:14:55Emma Grede?

  How terrifying.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  But also because I believe it, you know? So, part of the reason why I started the company was because, you know, I love hair. Like, through and through, okay? Always, like, when I did the Apple keynote in 2016 and people were like, oh, my God, this new product. They also talked about my hair.

• 1:15:12Emma Grede?

  Amazing.

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, when I was on the cover of the New York Times and saying that I was the one who was gonna save Uber, I was in my long ass braids down to my ankles. You know, it's like, I have loved hair my entire life. And part of the challenge with the hair extension business is that it's just not made for women of color, for black women. We're not at the center, even though we make up 80% of the consumer base.

• 1:15:33Emma Grede?

  Which is so wild, isn't it? And is that just like, is that a pure texture play? Or is it more nuanced than that?

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  No, it's more nuanced. It is a texture play, but it's also things like lace.

• 1:15:43Emma Grede?

  Colors of lace.

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:15:44Emma Grede?

  Oh, you're about to have a skew intensive situation out here. So you are gonna make.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  I have.

• 1:15:50Emma Grede?

  Different color laces.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  I have made different color laces.

• 1:15:52Emma Grede?

  Wow.

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Emma Grede?

  How many different colors?

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  Right now, but I'll expand because literally today, I was literally answering a customer question about another product I have, which is called Native Skin, and it basically is what you put inside of a wig, inside of the lace to hide the knots and make it look like scalp.

• 1:16:09Emma Grede?

  Got it.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Right? And she was like, oh, I'm between these two colors. So what do I do? And I was like, well, today, what you're gonna do is that you're gonna use the product so you can hide the knots, okay, in the lace, because that's the number one goal. Then you're gonna take your foundation and you are gonna color it a little bit, but don't worry, I'm coming with a shade for you.

• 1:16:23Emma Grede?

  Yeah, like.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:16:24Emma Grede?

  I got you.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  I mean, because why shouldn't I have forty shades like we have in cosmetics? Should. But part of the problem was that these companies, these manufacturers, just weren't doing it because they didn't feel a need to. You Google like how to, you know, tint my lace to be my complexion, and you'll find fourteen million videos of black women and women of color telling you how to do it. So my question was like, but why do they have to do that?

• 1:16:48Emma Grede?

  What an inconvenience.

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  I went to Guangzhou, China.

• 1:16:50Emma Grede?

  As if doing your hair doesn't take long enough already. I mean.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  I went to the center. I went to the place with the biggest hair show in the world, Guangzhou, China. I went by myself and I.

• 1:16:58Emma Grede?

  That's a lot.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Emma Grede?

  But wait a minute, because you are not manufacturing in China, right? Because I heard that you are actually in Ghana.

• 1:17:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I built a factory.

• 1:17:06Emma Grede?

  You built a factory?

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Emma Grede?

  You're self-funding, you're building factories.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and processing, all the, all the things. Well, because like, I also felt like, look, you know, they may have the corner on the manufacturing of hair, right? The sourcing of it, all of that stuff. So I'm still sourcing from Asia, from all kinds of places in Asia. But I wanted to manufacture in Ghana because I feel like the people there and the people I've hired will better understand how to talk to and make things for people like me.

• 1:17:40Emma Grede?

  I mean.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  I mean, it makes sense.

• 1:17:41Emma Grede?

  Without doubt. Yes, of course.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't I not do that? You know what I mean?

• 1:17:45Emma Grede?

  It's like, of course. Well, I tell you why you wouldn't do that, because there's that cost implication.

• 1:17:52Emma Grede?

  But I admire you, and I think it's incredible that you would do that, because we know how passionate you are.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:57Emma Grede?

  About that country, that region, about jobs, about supporting. So I, I admire it. But that is complex, and it's complex for your, is this your first startup?

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm also maniacal. I'm obsessed.

• 1:18:12Emma Grede?

  I mean, of, of course you are.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  Obsessed. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. It's like, I want to understand how we are threading each like, dot of lace. I want to understand the textures. I want to understand why it sheds. I want to understand what the colors are, what products are going in it. I want to understand how we wash it. So they can't be allergic for my sister who has sensitivities with that. I want it to smell good. I, because I don't like it when you take a fresh extension out of a hair and it smells like plastic.

• 1:18:44Emma Grede?

  That and it's right next to your face.

• 1:18:46Speaker 01

  To be delivered to me in plastic. I spend way too much money on it. So.

• 1:18:49Emma Grede?

  You want to deliver her another.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  I want to deliver it, yeah.

• 1:18:53Emma Grede?

  What are you gonna deliver it in?

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Deliver it in, in a bonnet.

• 1:18:55Emma Grede?

  Beautiful. Oh, perfect.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Which is sewn by women in Ghana who work at the factory. Made with fabric that I designed myself and printed at G T P, which is the original manufacturing plant for fabric in Ghana.

• 1:19:07Emma Grede?

  Feels very personal, this.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  It is. It is.

• 1:19:10Emma Grede?

  And that's why you were willing to put your own money in?

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. I want to, I want everybody to know what to do.

• 1:19:14Emma Grede?

  But there was no, because I feel like, again, you've built this reputation.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Emma Grede?

  You're now in the cast of Housewives. You could have gone out and raised money pretty easily, I would imagine.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Yes, very much.

• 1:19:23Emma Grede?

  Was there no, no temptation to do that?

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  There was. Now, here's, here's where we come back to it.

• 1:19:28Emma Grede?

  Tell me.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  I wanted to raise at first because of my ego.

• 1:19:34Emma Grede?

  Ah, because you wanted to be able to be like.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  I raised.

• 1:19:37Emma Grede?

  Blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Fifty billion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, she's the, like.

• 1:19:41Emma Grede?

  Coming fresh out of all these jobs.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  I got it. Yeah. Most money, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

• 1:19:45Emma Grede?

  Yeah, whatever.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  And I was sitting there, girl, and it was tempting.

• 1:19:49Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  I was like, I could.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  And I could also not, I could also raise and not make that headline.

• 1:19:55Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  But I was like, but why am I doing that? But what am I, what am I doing it for? I can, I can fund it. So why do I need to?

• 1:20:03Emma Grede?

  And you were in that position where you were like, I can fund it.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:06Emma Grede?

  Have you put a lot of money in?

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:08Emma Grede?

  An scary amount of money?

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  A scary amount of money. A scary amount of money. And I talked to my business manager about it. God bless her.

• 1:20:15Emma Grede?

  Was she supportive?

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, no. Of course not.

• 1:20:18Emma Grede?

  No, of course, they never are. They literally never are.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  She was like, why would you use your money to do this? What kind of stupidity? And I was like, and again, this is why like, sometimes you gotta really understand if it's your guts or what. And I just felt called, you know, I was like, it has to be mine. Like, it has to be mine. It has to be my skin in the game. I have to have, people have to believe me that like, I'm, I'm not taking anybody's money because I believe in this. And it is mine. And I'm going to make it for you because I love it that much. I'm willing to put everything in it. And I'm going to stitch every single thread through this. I'm going to test every single product, not because I don't want to disappoint my investors, because I can't lose.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  It is the same speech that I gave in that Beats office. I'm like, I will win because I have to win.

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  Because I love it this much.

• 1:21:13Emma Grede?

  I have no doubt.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  Girl.

• 1:21:15Emma Grede?

  No doubt. There's nothing in me that's like, I'm like, let, let me invest. I, I have no doubt on you winning. Like, I'm here for it. All the wigs.

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  But I love it. I love, I love hair. And I'm, I'm making it for everybody. I, I love seeing it outside.

• 1:21:29Emma Grede?

  You must do.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I, Rebecca Minkoff called me and was like, hey, can I get some?

• 1:21:34Emma Grede?

  Give me some hair.

• 1:21:35Speaker 01

  I was like, girl's not made for you, but sure. You know what I mean? I was like, I didn't, I said the straightest texture I had. I was like, I hope it works. Okay?

• 1:21:43Emma Grede?

  A little bit of flavor. Everybody needs it. Like, why not?

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Erica Jane, you know, one of my classmates.

• 1:21:47Emma Grede?

  Yes, Erica Jane. I mean, she's amazing.

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:21:50Emma Grede?

  She really, she knows how to wear some hair, that girl.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Let me tell you, Erica Jane wears platinum.

• 1:21:55Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:21:56Emma Grede?

  Do you have that, do you have that color?

• 1:21:58Speaker 01

  I'm making it right now.

• 1:21:59Emma Grede?

  Yes, I love that.

• 1:22:00Speaker 01

  I took her my first batch. And I was like, here you go.

• 1:22:04Emma Grede?

  Listen, that's a, that's a great ambassador. I am, I, listen, I watched you turn up on Housewives. First of all, I am obsessed. I'm the first person, like, Housewives is my number one guilty pleasure of life.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 1:22:17Emma Grede?

  Beverly Hills, followed by Atlanta, followed by New York. I don't watch any of the others, but like, that's my jam. No, no, no.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  I do not know that.

• 1:22:23Emma Grede?

  Oh, no, I love it. It's like, it's almost like, I like it if I get like a little bit sick and I'm gonna be like.

• 1:22:30Emma Grede?

  I just stay home today. Like this honestly, it's I'm a perfect. So when you turned up, first of all, I was dead. Then I was dead. Then I was like, no, no, she did not like I could not.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Imagine.

• 1:22:42Emma Grede?

  I could not imagine.

• 1:22:43Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:22:43Emma Grede?

  I could not imagine.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  And everybody told me not to do it, by the way.

• 1:22:46Emma Grede?

  Of course, they told you not to do it because they were like, how are you gonna go back and get one of these big ass jobs like?

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:51Emma Grede?

  Could did was this again, I know you don't plan. But did it feel in your gut? Did this feel right to you like that was the right move to make for that moment in your life?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  It felt divine.

• 1:23:00Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  It really did. And I as as much as anything in my life feels divine, you know? I think I told you this before where I was like, hey, look like I feel like. The universe opens.

• 1:23:11Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  And I can feel it. And all I have to do is walk in it. Like I really, I'm telling you, like, I can feel it. I know it. And so this moment, it was like the chasm formed. And I was like, oh shit, okay, I this is.

• 1:23:32Emma Grede?

  That's where I'm going.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Supposed to go.

• 1:23:33Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  And so again, it's like all those naysayers and the people are just like, oh, but your reputation. And like, oh, people are gonna laugh at you and they're gonna wonder why in the hell you would do this and go argue with women on TV.

• 1:23:44Emma Grede?

  Well, but you don't.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 1:23:46Emma Grede?

  No, but this is the interesting thing. You're changing the energy of the Housewives because I feel like you came in with all of your intelligence and no yelling, no bickering.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  But Emma, Emma.

• 1:23:58Emma Grede?

  Raising above it.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  This is what we're talking about, which is like, I believe in myself first.

• 1:24:05Emma Grede?

  So you weren't coming in to join the cast of these Housewives. You're like, I'm coming in as Bose to do Bose, to be Bose.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  And I'm coming as me. And it doesn't matter.

• 1:24:12Emma Grede?

  It feels that way.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  And it doesn't matter what has worked in the past. And it doesn't matter that, you know, people love like a quick comeback that will like slice somebody down and all that. I don't do that. I don't know how to do that. And so I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna do what I do.

• 1:24:26Emma Grede?

  Do you think it aligns with your reputation and like as a storyteller?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Yes, I think it is. It is my story right now. Because for a long time, I have told my story, my personal story from a.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  Lens which looks backwards.

• 1:24:44Emma Grede?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  You know, I think people would say that they know the story of me like as a personally as a mother and as a widow.

• 1:24:51Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  You know, but they don't know my story right now. Like, they don't know me personally. They don't know if I cook, they don't know if I drive, they don't know who I'm dating.

• 1:25:00Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  They don't know how I mother. Right? You know I'm a good mother. You can see the product of my child, but you don't know how I do it. You don't know what my policies are. You don't know if I allow her to date. You don't know anything. And so for me.

• 1:25:12Emma Grede?

  We're learning. We're learning. I mean, we're literally.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  And so for me, that, that right now is the part of the storytelling that I, I want to deliver. And so it's like this platform allows me to do that.

• 1:25:24Emma Grede?

  No, it really does. And I honestly, I have to tell you both, I think you are showing up beautifully in that show. Like, I feel like everyone who watches you, who kind of like, you know, knows you is looking at that and being like, wow, she gives zero fucks. She is one hundred percent herself.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yes, myself.

• 1:25:42Emma Grede?

  But there's, there's an element of pride in there because I think that as a black woman coming into that show.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:47Emma Grede?

  It's hard enough, but you are, you're just you.

• 1:25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:51Emma Grede?

  And you're coming in and you're doing it in such a kind of like higher orbit way. I'm like, look at her. She is not going down to that level.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:25:59Emma Grede?

  It's very interesting to see that.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  But also, but also because.

• 1:26:01Emma Grede?

  Because I think I'd be such a little bitch on that show. Like, I would, you know what I mean?

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  This is why, this is why I want you to join.

• 1:26:06Emma Grede?

  It's another, it's another conversation for another day.

• 1:26:09Speaker 01

  They're like, come on.

• 1:26:10Emma Grede?

  I'm like.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  So, when are you coming on the show?

• 1:26:12Emma Grede?

  Listen, Boz, I'm coming in as your friend.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  This is my pitch. Yes. Perfect. I'll take it.

• 1:26:18Emma Grede?

  It's too funny. And who do you think is the best businesswoman on Housewives?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  Oh, see now, this is a hard one. Because I'm looking at it not in terms of like what they have done that would make them succeed, but if I would hire them. And I, I would hire Dorit.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Probably first.

• 1:26:34Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  You know, she's the, because she's the kind who will get obsessed.

• 1:26:39Emma Grede?

  Yes, I can see that.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  And will, will become very passionate about the thing. Like, if she believes in it, she's not letting it go.

• 1:26:44Emma Grede?

  If you had to invest, if you had to invest in one of the Housewives, who would you invest in? Doesn't need to just be, but, yeah, yeah, today.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  It would be Erica Jean.

• 1:26:52Emma Grede?

  Facts, I mean, easy, easy. When you think about Housewives, just as a franchise and overall, do you think that, do you think that it stereotypes women, or do you think it's empowering for women overall?

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, today?

• 1:27:05Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Hmm, I think it stereotypes women today. But I think it has the potential to empower women. I think, you know, it's fallen into a little bit of a rut of complex arguments and disagreements that aren't founded in anything profound, you know? And so, by the way, my belief isn't that there shouldn't be any fighting on Housewives. I think that that's a natural part of friendship and who we are.

• 1:27:31Emma Grede?

  Of course it is.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  You know, we have conflict.

• 1:27:32Emma Grede?

  Of course it is.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  I would prefer that the conflict is based on something with, like, real depth, purpose. And that it can be resolved, or not, with that same type of angle.

• 1:27:44Emma Grede?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  You know, it's not like, oh, all the Housewives have to get along, has to be kumbaya, and everybody just has to sing.

• 1:27:49Emma Grede?

  That's not life.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Like.

• 1:27:51Emma Grede?

  It's a reality show.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  That's right. I'm like, we all have so much conflict in our lives, all of the time. Like, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, what happens next season, right? And even for myself, and I'm like, gosh, there's so much happening in my life that there's, and there's conflict inside of my own life that I don't need to go and argue with somebody over the conflict. Like, all it takes is for me to tell you what's going on.

• 1:28:15Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:15Speaker 01

  Maybe you agree or disagree, right? I remember one area in particular, right? Where I was at dinner with Dorit and Erica, and we were talking about my relationship, my new relationship.

• 1:28:25Emma Grede?

  Oh, my God, of course, I watched the show. I know exactly what you're about to say. And then you tell them, but you hasn't even said, I love you.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  And their reaction is like, huh, what? Oh, I mean, look, and

• 1:28:35Emma Grede?

  By the way, that was all of our reaction, Baz.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Everybody's reaction. Yes. Everybody was shook.

• 1:28:39Emma Grede?

  We're like, what is she talking about? Is this trying to have a baby with this man? Which is my next question, by the way.

• 1:28:43Speaker 01

  But that was, that was, but that was an honest reaction.

• 1:28:46Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  And by the way, Erica was like, absolutely not. Like, you know, what, what wasn't seen on TV, right? Was that she was just like, oh, this is ridiculous. She was like, absolutely not. You cannot, do not have another conversation about having a baby or doing anything serious without him telling you he loves you. And we got into a little bit of a conflict on that.

• 1:29:02Emma Grede?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. But that is, that is a natural thing. And I think we should.

• 1:29:07Emma Grede?

  Why didn't we see that?

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  I know, right? We should have seen that. There was so much to see.

• 1:29:10Emma Grede?

  Bo's and Erica James?

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  There was so much going on, you know?

• 1:29:12Emma Grede?

  I wanna see that.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, I trusted her disagreement.

• 1:29:18Emma Grede?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  Because I know that she cares for me. And we don't have to agree on whether or not I think it was important that he says he loves me before I talk to him about having a baby. Because we don't agree.

• 1:29:29Emma Grede?

  We just don't agree.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  But that's okay. And we can disagree on that. And we can disagree loudly, too, if we want to.

• 1:29:34Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  But the thing is that, like, we can also resolve it. Whereas now, I'm just like, huh, take that, Erica. You know what I mean? And she's just like, alright, alright. Maybe I was wrong.

• 1:29:43Emma Grede?

  Alright, I only have one more housewives question for you. Because I'm obsessed. I could have done this whole thing about how done. You did say

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:29:51Emma Grede?

  That you were thinking about having another baby.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:54Emma Grede?

  And I just wonder, like, at this point in your life, when it feels like you're starting a new business and you've got, the world is in front of you.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:02Emma Grede?

  Really? Really?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:05Emma Grede?

  Oh, you must be in love.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  No, it's not just love. I suffered so much through my pregnancies.

• 1:30:11Emma Grede?

  Of course.

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  I had early preeclampsia, I have a protein S deficiency. I had to take injections, I had to take medicine. I lost my first child to it. There was just so much. Thank you. There was so much that I suffered with it. And so part of, you know, what has happened in the last 16 years is me convincing myself that I didn't want another one. It wasn't the reality of it.

• 1:30:35Emma Grede?

  Of course.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  Yes. Fear.

• 1:30:37Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  Yo.

• 1:30:38Emma Grede?

  Understandable.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  Trauma, grief, all of it. And I'm not saying that those things aren't protective. They are. Because I was like, you know, actually, I don't want another child. I have one, I'm good. Like, I thank you, Lord, and I'm good with this one. But the truth of the matter underneath it is that it did take love. In order for me to uncover that maybe there was a little spark or something in there. When Healy said to me that he wanted to have a baby with me. And I looked at that man like he was out of his mind. And I said, oh, see, I don't know what you're talking about. I, I, okay, what, what does that mean exactly? He's like, well, do you want one? And I was like, yes. I was like, but I can't.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  And he was like, why?

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  I'm like, oh, and I've been sick and I've had this and I've had that. And he was just like, well, could we ask a doctor? Could we talk to somebody?

• 1:31:31Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Could tell us definitively whether or not you can? And I was like, okay, but they're not gonna like get rid of my fear. And I was wrong.

• 1:31:42Emma Grede?

  They did.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Yes. And so when I met Dr. Cindy Duke, who's an amazing fertility doctor, and she's talking to me about the realities of preeclampsia, my age, my, you know, like health, like what the last sixteen years of hypertension have done to my heart, like all of those things. And she gave me the confidence that it's possible. Man, I'm telling you, I cried that day.

• 1:32:08Emma Grede?

  I bet you did.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Lot of tears.

• 1:32:10Emma Grede?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:10Speaker 01

  Cause I'd carried around a lot of guilt and a lot of trauma.

• 1:32:13Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  Over sixteen years. And I said, okay, well then, like all I can do is try, you know?

• 1:32:20Emma Grede?

  Maybe I will.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  So maybe I will. And so I'm gonna do everything I can to see if I can.

• 1:32:25Emma Grede?

  We're gonna be watching both.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Girl.

• 1:32:27Emma Grede?

  We're gonna be hoping for you. Listen.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:32:29Emma Grede?

  We will be. So I guess my question to you is at this point in your life.

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:35Emma Grede?

  It's like you've had all the big jobs. You've had the cultural moments. You're starting a new business. You're on my favorite show.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:43Emma Grede?

  Most important thing. You're raising this beautiful little daughter and you've got all the hope in the world.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:32:49Emma Grede?

  For what your future could hold.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:51Emma Grede?

  What's important to you now and what does the future hold?

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  What's important to me now?

• 1:32:56Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  You remember when I was telling you about like, you know, the universe just opening, right? It's not this universe, it's like God, you know, that um, I just, I just want to do what is set out for me to do. Sometimes it feels like I'm drinking from a fire hose. Cause it's so big. But it's so exciting. And every day, something happens and I'm just like, oh, I'm in awe. I'm in awe of this life. I, I mean, how wonderful, how amazing. Is it to be able to like, sit and commune with the universe, with God and just be like, okay, what am I supposed to do now? And get answers.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  I think it is, it is a masterful, beautiful thing. And I wish everybody could feel that way.

• 1:33:45Emma Grede?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  I feel anointed that way. People are like, oh, you're glowing. I'm like, yes, because that's just my destiny, like showing up in my face. Like, I'm so happy in this life.

• 1:33:53Emma Grede?

  That's a really beautiful thing to say.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:56Emma Grede?

  That's just my destiny showing up in my face. I'm gonna steal that one.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it is. And the thing is that like, look.

• 1:34:01Emma Grede?

  That's so beautiful, Boz.

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  You know my story. Like, it's not as if it's been a silver spoon.

• 1:34:05Emma Grede?

  Oh, no.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  It's not as if it's just been like roses and like, you know, diamonds all along.

• 1:34:10Emma Grede?

  And you know, Boz, it's so funny and I, I do wanna say this to you. I didn't ask you about those things for a reason, because I think that, first of all, I, I'm a, I'm a Boz fan. I read everything, I listened to everything. And I feel like the, where you are in your life at this point, has to be celebrated. And so my focus was very intentional, because it's not to ignore, because you have had an unbelievable life and you've had unbelievable tragedies, but it's more to pay respect to like, where you're at and where you're going. And I think that that is really important.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  And those things, I can't predict, okay? I can't say like, oh my gosh, nothing bad will ever happen to me again. I don't know. I've seen like, the depth of things. Like, and they're terrible and scary and I hope nothing like that happens again. But if they do, like, I have utmost faith that my life is going to be excellent. Regardless of those things that happen. And that's why I walk around with this smile. That's why I walk around with such optimism. That's why I walk around with such joy in the life that I live, regardless of the tragedies that happen, because I have faith that my life is going to be excellent.

• 1:35:16Emma Grede?

  My job, Boz.

• 1:35:19Emma Grede?

  No, I'm gonna do my quickfire round because I'm like, I just could, I could cry. You make me cry. You make me feel like I'm gonna cry, like I'm in church all at once. It's very powerful.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Oh, I love it.

• 1:35:29Emma Grede?

  I love you. It's so true. All right. What is the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning?

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  I pray.

• 1:35:36Emma Grede?

  Really?

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:37Emma Grede?

  Every day?

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 1:35:38Emma Grede?

  I love that. What's the last thing you do before you go to bed?

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Hmm, I check my email.

• 1:35:44Emma Grede?

  You do not.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:35:45Emma Grede?

  You're not supposed to do that with the phone and the light in your face.

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  It's literally slaying by my bed. By the way, Arianna Huffington once gave me like a phone bed. Do you remember when she was doing this?

• 1:35:54Emma Grede?

  Yes, of course.

• 1:35:55Speaker 01

  Friends, yeah.

• 1:35:56Emma Grede?

  Cause she's like, don't look at your phone.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Your tech like next to your face in your bed.

• 1:36:00Emma Grede?

  Where's your phone bed?

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  Girl, I don't know. It's in the freaking closet somewhere. I'm not, I'm probably threw it out. Sorry, Arianna.

• 1:36:05Emma Grede?

  Sorry, girl.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  But you know, but it's, yeah, I check my email.

• 1:36:08Emma Grede?

  I love that. What are you currently aspiring for in your business life?

• 1:36:12Speaker 01

  Ooh, total world domination.

• 1:36:15Emma Grede?

  Yes.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yes, I wanna be the greatest.

• 1:36:18Emma Grede?

  Yeah, I feel like you're, you're on the way. I have no doubt. What are you currently aspiring for in your personal life?

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. I think just the, the release of my trauma.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  So that I can live a fully loving life.

• 1:36:36Emma Grede?

  What is a book that changed your life?

• 1:36:38Speaker 01

  Hmm, The Artist's Way. It's, it's almost like a workbook. So it's, it's gonna tell you more about yourself than it is gonna tell you what to do.

• 1:36:45Emma Grede?

  It should be buying it immediately.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Emma Grede?

  What is something that you valued when you were starting out? That you don't now?

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Ooh, I think maybe I really valued title. Like the title that I was given. I don't care about that so much anymore. I have so many of them.

• 1:37:05Emma Grede?

  I was gonna say, stacking them up, that's why.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  And they don't really matter. Power matters. I care more about power now than I care about the title.

• 1:37:12Emma Grede?

  What's something that you value now that you didn't back then?

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  Ooh, freedom. I was so chained to my career, you know? But now I'm free to do whatever the hell I wanna do. I didn't know that that was an important thing.

• 1:37:27Emma Grede?

  It's amazing. Boz, I think you're the most, most spectacular woman. I'm so happy that you would spend a couple of hours.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Thank you. I love you.

• 1:37:34Emma Grede?

  You made my day.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  I made this seat because of you. You know what I mean? I just want to come anywhere now, okay?

• 1:37:39Emma Grede?

  I know.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  I'm gonna just go in places, okay?

• 1:37:42Emma Grede?

  I know.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Because of you, and I'm so proud of you.

• 1:37:45Emma Grede?

  Thank you.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  For what you're doing.

• 1:37:46Emma Grede?

  It means the world.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  For opening up this microphone. It's amazing.

• 1:37:48Emma Grede?

  It means the world. Thank you, Boz.

• 1:37:55Emma Grede?

  If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. We'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Our executive producers are Corinne Gilliard Fisher, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey are Maddie Sprung Kaiser, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Justine Dom is our senior producer. Our producer is Kristin Torres. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, Carlos Delgado, and Arnie Agassi.

• 1:38:39Emma Grede?

  Social media by Olivia Homan. Special thanks go to Brittany Smith, Sidney Ford, my teams at Jonesworks and WNE, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Mikko, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E, with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.

• 1:39:15Speaker 06

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• 1:39:58Speaker 06

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