Pod Insights Aspire with Emma Grede Why Financial Education is the Best Investment You Can Make (Tori Dunlap) About this episode The truth is, most of us weren’t taught how to manage our money, we were taught not to talk about it.
From salary transparency and investing to honest discussions about debt and risk, women are left out of the conversation. Today’s guest, Tori Dunlap, is trying to change that. She’s built HerFirst $100K into a multi-million dollar education platform by helping women reshape their relationship with money and start building wealth.
In this conversation Emma and Tori get into the real reasons why so many women avoid looking at their bank accounts, how money narratives impact our decisions before we are even old enough to understand them and why waiting until you're ready to invest is ultimately costing you your future.
Tori also speaks candidly about why she believes women in relationships should keep separate accounts, how the trad wife trend can be misleading and why getting rich isn’t something women should ever feel guilty about.
You’ll learn:
• Why “I’m bad at math” is keeping women broke
• What most of us get wrong about investing and how to do it right
• What today’s economic uncertainty actually means for your money
• Why financial education is the highest-return investment you can make
What's your biggest money block right now? Drop it in the comments, we'd love to hear from you. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of Aspire with Emma Grede.
Transcript 19,161 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:09 Emma Grede? The gender wealth gap isn't just about women earning less, it's also about how women are taught to think about money. For generations, women were left out of financial conversations entirely. And as a result, even today, many of us grow up feeling like money is complicated, intimidating, or something someone else should handle. Today's guest, Tori Dunlap, has made it her mission to change that. Through her first 100K, a financial education platform, she's helped more than 5 million women take control of their money and build wealth unapologetically. What I love about Tori is how honest she is. Today, we talk about the shame many, many women carry around money,
0:50 Emma Grede? the narratives inherited from childhood that quietly shape your financial decisions, and why financial literacy might be one of the most powerful things a woman can invest in. Tori isn't just teaching us about money, she's helping all of us rethink our entire relationship with it, so we can all be empowered to make better decisions.
1:12 Speaker 01 Today's episode is sponsored by NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast. Ever Google a money question and end up 12 tabs deep with 12 different answers? This podcast is your shortcut back to clarity. NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast breaks down financial decisions with a team of trusted journalists. They explain the why behind decisions like investing, home buying, and choosing credit cards with clear, research-backed insights. No jargon, no misinformation. Make your next financial move with confidence. Follow NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast on your favorite podcast app.
1:43 Emma Grede? The Start With Yourself tour kicks off on April 15 in New York City. Tickets are on sale now at emagree.com.
1:53 Emma Grede? Tori, I am very excited to have you here today.
1:56 Speaker 02 I am absolutely thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me.
1:58 Emma Grede? No, thank you for coming. I mean, listen, we're going to talk about so much. We're going to cover a lot today. We're going to talk about savings. We're going to talk about investments and all the stuff that you just do not bullshit one little bit about.
2:08 Speaker 02 Absolutely not.
2:09 Emma Grede? But I feel like we should kind of just ground ourselves in some numbers before we start. And these are the numbers that really stayed with me as I was doing my research about you. Twenty-two, you start investing.
2:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:19 Emma Grede? Twenty-five, you save a hundred thousand dollars. And by the age of twenty-seven, you are a multimillionaire.
2:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:29 Emma Grede? I mean, I just want to kind of like let everybody sit with that a little bit because it is quite extraordinary. And I think for the people at home, no, you weren't just born into like a ton of money and figured it all out. So we have a lot to dig into today.
2:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:43 Emma Grede? But before we get into all of that, I really want to just start this conversation because I am one of the people that feels extremely comfortable talking about money. And I know that I am very largely alone when it comes to that. And I just really want to talk to you and understand why you think so many of us find it hard to speak honestly about the subject of money.
3:05 Speaker 02 Money is the most taboo topic. We will talk about sex, death, politics, religion. We will talk about anything before we'll talk about money. And I think it's because so many of us equate our net worth with our self-worth. If we are doing poorly with money, it feels so shameful. And that's the number one emotion when I talk to our five million women in our community. It is shame. I feel shame that I have debt. I feel shame that I'm not doing better. I feel shame that I seem to blow all my money on stupid shit, right? But the interesting thing that happens, especially with women, is that we feel shame when we're not doing enough. And then we feel shame when we're doing really well, right? Men can Google it like, oh, I brought in this amount of money
3:48 Speaker 02 or I got this bonus or I'm doing these things, right? So no wonder we don't want to talk about money because it feels so personal. And it also feels like I can't be the first one in the room to bring it up. Because what If somebody else is going to judge me.
4:02 Emma Grede? And it's crazy to me, just as you say, that it happens at both ends of the spectrum. It's not like somewhere along the way, we get comfortable with making money and then everyone's just happy to talk about it. And I say this all the time because I've had so many people on this podcast and I think I've made it pretty clear. Like, we're here to talk about women and power and money. And we're here to talk about how we make more money and how we get more things. And yet, it's still one of the things that a lot of people will say, I just don't want to touch that subject. Yes, I've just IPO'd. Yes, I've just sold my company. Yes, I'm on the brink of something amazing. And yet, kind of don't want to talk about the fact that I've just made a $300 million paycheck. And I'm like, why? Like, why?
4:42 Speaker 02 Well, I think it's also, and again, you and I can spend hours talking about this because this is my favorite thing to talk about. I think that society views women in this specific box. And we all know the box, right? When money is a form of control, it is so easy to tell women, don't talk about money, right? Don't pursue money because you don't want to be greedy. You want to be gauche. Rich people are bad, right? Rich people, people who have money are evil, right? And if we believe those narratives, what happens? We end up broke. We end up financially struggling. We have no control over our lives. That's not an accident. It's not an accident that we have this belief that talking about money is gauche, it's impolite.
5:26 Speaker 02 Because if you don't talk about money, you don't know that Chad, who was hired two years after you and has way less education and experience, is making 40K more than you. You don't know that everybody at the table at dinner also feels ashamed about their debt. And it's, it's, it's not an accident. It's on purpose.
5:43 Emma Grede? It totally is on purpose. So what do you say to women? Because you do have like these giant community of women. You're constantly talking to them about money.
5:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:51 Emma Grede? What do we do to shift the conversation? Because I'm all about moving forward, having progress. That's what we're going to talk about today. But what do you say to women who have been raised in a specific way? And again, I want to talk to you a lot about this idea of like the narratives that we have around money and the relationships that we build and when they start. But if we just want to start talking about it in order that we get more of it, like, where do we even begin?
6:16 Speaker 02 The first thing you have to realize is that money is not a stack of government issued paper, right? Like money and the pursuit of it is not just about accumulating more. Because every woman I talk to, that's not what they're interested in. It's not what you're interested in. That's not what I'm interested in. I'm interested in what money can buy me. I'm interested in turning money into a tool to create a life that I want. And as soon as you realize that money means options, having a financial education is your best form of protest in a society in a system that wants to keep you controlled. You have the ability to start a business, to donate to causes you believe in, to have kids or not have kids, or to travel, or to buy a house. Like, every option opens up to you. And when I'm talking with women in our community, at this point, we get a message
7:01 Speaker 02 every five minutes from a woman somewhere. And they say things like, "I was able to leave my abusive marriage." It's gonna make me cry. I can't even talk about it without crying. But like, "I was able to leave my abusive marriage because I have money for the first time." Or, "I saved my first thousand dollars and I feel like, I just feel so powerful." Right? And that's always the second part of the message. It's, "I did this financial goal and I feel so much better or so much power, more powerful in every aspect of my life now." So, the first thing that we have to do in order to get comfortable making money is understanding it's not about the money, it's about what the money can buy you. It's the options and the choices. And the second thing is that, just like any other vulnerable conversation, you have to offer that vulnerability first. Yes.
7:45 Speaker 02 If you are someone who wants to talk about money, and I think every single listener should make it their prerogative in 2026 to talk about money, it's very hard to go in, you know, like you're an interrogator and be like, "What's your salary?" Right? Like, that's not gonna be well received. But instead, bringing in maybe an insecurity you have about money, or something you're dealing with. Like, "Ah, my student loans just feel insane right now." Do you feel the same way? That's a financial conversation. If you're on a date and you're trying to figure out who's paying, that's a financial conversation, right? Like, I think we talk about money more than we might realize, but as soon as those conversations start to get transparent, that's where it feels uncomfortable. So make sure you are talking about money in a safe relationship and also be Be the first person to offer the olive branch because that other person will likely meet you there too.
8:30 Emma Grede? Yeah, no, I love that. I feel like as soon as you open up the conversation and you show a level of vulnerability, right? Because there's this idea that we should all still be fronting around money.
8:39 Speaker 02 Right, right.
8:39 Emma Grede? Making it up a little bit.
8:40 Speaker 02 Right.
8:40 Emma Grede? You know, as soon as you show an element of vulnerability, you will often find your friends, your partner, whoever it is, your colleague that you're sitting next to.
8:47 Speaker 02 You'll hear me too.
8:48 Emma Grede? They'll go, exactly. They go, I feel exactly the same way. What did you do about that? Like, how are you thinking about it?
8:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:53 Emma Grede? And that's when those kind of unlocks start to happen. Talk to me a little bit about this idea that I, you know, every time I read about you, you talk about money narratives.
9:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:02 Emma Grede? And I am obsessed with the idea about how what we've learned about money in our childhood affects our decision making as adults. Can you touch on that a bit for me?
9:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's crazy. So the whole first chapter of my book, Financial Feminist, is about the emotions of money. And I'm really talking about the money narratives. Because I used to sit down and coach women one on one. Like, we would sit at a coffee shop. So it was like 2018, 2019. I would do like budget audits with them and I would sit down and I'm very action oriented, right? If you listen to my show, we're going to get into, I'm sure, some like really valuable stuff. I always wanted to go there. I wanted to be like, here's what a Roth IRA is. Here's how to invest. Here's how to choose your investments. And then they would come back to me in three months or six months and they would have done everything I told them to do for a while. But something would happen, right? Some monkey on their back would influence their spending decisions, influence the way they viewed money.
9:55 Speaker 02 And so I realized in my work, we can't talk about how to budget or how to optimize your investments without understanding the way we view money. So the vast majority of your financial habits are cemented by age seven.
10:10 Emma Grede? Oof.
10:10 Speaker 02 Second grade, unless you work to change them. So one of the practices I do in my work, and if you'd be so willing, I would love to ask you.
10:18 Emma Grede? Let's go.
10:19 Speaker 02 We love talking about your money memory and specifically your first money memory. So your first money memory has a lot to do with the way you view money now. So mine was, I was told by my parents, if I wanted something, I had to save for it. And once a theater kid, always a theater kid, I wanted to go see Annie the Musical. And it was at our local community theater and I didn't have a source of income. I was four or five years old, right? But my parents were like, if you want a ticket to Annie, you're gonna have to save for it. So I had my little Altoids tin and I would put my, you know, change I found on the street or the money I made in my lemonade stand and I'd put in my Altoids tin and that's, that's what I saved to go to Annie. And then we were on the way to the performance and I realized halfway there that I had forgotten my tin.
11:00 Emma Grede? Oh.
11:01 Speaker 02 I had a meltdown in the back of the car. I was like, I'm not gonna get to go. This is awful. And my mom's like, no, like, we've got you. Cause the ticket, I did not have enough money for a $20 ticket or whatever, but the whole practice was if you want something, you have to save for it. So Emma, I'd love to ask you, what is your first money memory?
11:18 Emma Grede? You know, it's very similar. I have to tell you, I used to get given pocket money or an allowance, as you would say in America, but of course I was obsessed with fashion magazines.
11:27 Speaker 02 Of course.
11:28 Emma Grede? My allowance was one pound a week and the fashion magazine was, I don't know, two seventy-five or whatever. So it was like, you know, it was a stacking thing and I would lend from my sisters. I'm the eldest of four. So it would be like, you know, if the Vogue's out and the Vogue's gonna go, I'd be like, I need 50p from you and 50p from you.
11:44 Speaker 02 You were a bank.
11:45 Emma Grede? Yeah. I was a bank from young, but it's so interesting because my sisters and I would almost like play these games. And I had one sister, you know, we call her the squirrel sister that would squirrel money away. And then she'd come out with like 10 pounds and we'd be like, where'd you get the 10 quid from? Like, nobody understood. And she's like, well, I haven't bought anything for weeks. And we were like, whoa, still to this day, I could never be her.
12:08 Speaker 02 Right.
12:08 Emma Grede? But you know, it was like this early lesson and understanding how each of us dealt with money differently. But let me tell you, there was no coming back. Like the allowance was the amount. My mom was like, this is what you've got. This is what you have to deal with.
12:21 Speaker 02 We're not giving you anymore.
12:22 Emma Grede? Between you, whatever you do is what you're gonna do. But I'm done. Like I'm tapping out. And actually, just from a very, very young age, I understood the value. You know, I talk about this all the time now. I still not lost touch with the value of every pound, the value of every dollar. I know the price of everything. It's actually what makes me good at my job, I think, because it's like, you're gonna buy like a, you know, a pair of jeans off of me, they're gonna Be worth every one of those hundred and forty nine dollars.
12:49 Speaker 02 Right.
12:49 Emma Grede? That I'm asking you to spend. But I think it's very interesting because there is this concept that you talk about being a financial ostrich.
12:56 Speaker 02 Yes.
12:57 Emma Grede? You're either one of these people that is constantly facing money, or you've got your head in the sand.
13:03 Speaker 02 And it probably has a lot to do with the way your parents manage money. So you and I have seemingly pretty positive money narratives or money memories, but I also know how you grew up.
13:11 Emma Grede? Yeah, and I didn't have a lot, so you just had to everything, everything was. Right. It was all like, you know, this amount of money is here, and if you don't have it, then the lights aren't going to come on. So I had a very connected idea to what money. Gave us. It wasn't, you know, I guess for some kids growing up, you have no idea of like what the value of anything is. And actually, I think for our kids growing up today, because money is so largely digitized, they never see anything, right? I make a point to give my kids an allowance in cash because they come up to me and they're like, can I have these like Roblox bucks or whatever? And I'm like, yeah, but do you understand that's like twenty of your dollars?
13:50 Emma Grede? And as soon as they start handing you one dollar bills, they're like, oh, all right, maybe I'll do the seven.
13:53 Speaker 02 Right, the physical manifestation of.
13:55 Emma Grede? Ninety nine. So I do think that we have a responsibility to understand what happened.
14:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:01 Emma Grede? In our past, right? Because it has such a huge impact.
14:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, and if you feel like you don't have a great relationship with money, it was probably because of the way your parents or your guardians managed money. And we've seen a lot of immigrant communities especially, people who just hoard their money because is the other shoe gonna drop, right? I see that so often. A lot of people's first money memories are not positive. It is, I tried to buy school lunch and we couldn't afford it. Or I watched my parents freeze their credit cards. Like, that was advice back in the day, was like, if you can't control your spending on credit cards, literally like, put it in a block of ice and freeze it.
14:35 Emma Grede? Oh, you mean literally freezing?
14:36 Speaker 02 Literally, not just freezing your credit, but like literally like put it in a block of ice and freeze it.
14:41 Emma Grede? Yeah.
14:41 Speaker 02 And you mentioned the ostrich effect, and it is probably the most common thing I see because all of this feels so emotional and it feels so loaded. It is so much easier to bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and act like your problems don't exist. And the metaphor I bring. Is that so many people believe that looking at my money stresses me out. So therefore I'm not going to do it. That's not what's stressing you out. You're stressed out because you are raw dogging life. And what I mean by that is you are just going through life, wondering at any time. Is my car going to decline? Can I not afford this? It's almost like a gas gauge in your car. Right? Like if I get in my car and I start driving and I don't have a gas gauge or the gas gauge is broken. That's a really stressful road trip.
15:24 Speaker 02 Cause I could break down on the side of the road at two in the morning in a place I've never been without cell reception. Like all the time I am driving that car in the back of my head, I'm going. How much further can I get? Versus if I get in the car and my like. Lights on of like, you need to get gas soon. Stressful, but at least I know. I know how far I can get. So what's happening is you're not stressed. When you look at your money, that's not the thing that's actually stressing you out. You're stressed because you have no idea what's going on. You have stress because you're ignoring it. Right? You have no idea and you're just driving along the road being like, well, I don't know if I can afford this thing. So if you believe that money is the stressor. Start looking at your money. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but you have to know the lay of the land before you can do anything.
16:09 Speaker 02 You have to know how much gas you have in your car and how far you can get. And that's when we talk about like budgeting, right? And I say the word budget and somebody just like threw up or like at home, they're like, oh, I don't want to talk about it. Budgeting is not restrictive. It's not about deprivation. It's not about what you can't have. It's like guardrails. It's like, here's what I know I can spend so that when I do spend money, it feels really good. There is no guilt, there's no shame, there's no regret. It is like, great. I had a pina colada on the beach and I got to enjoy it. Cause nothing tastes worse than a pina colada on the beach with a side of guilt.
16:40 Emma Grede? Damn right. No, I think you're a hundred percent right about this, but I think that we've also got this added piece of it in the times that we're living in. You know, when you think about. The way the information is reported, the fact that every day we're hearing something about inflation and another thing about tariffs, we just lost a ton of money in crypto, like whatever it is, there is this bombardment of information that if you're not taking care of your financial education, you don't understand how that could affect you. So I feel like there's this other reason that we are pulling apart from our relationship with money because we just, we don't know what we don't know.
17:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. And we have to talk about the fact that I think traditional personal finance advice is if you're not rich, it's because you're not working hard enough. And you and I both know that's bullshit.
17:22 Emma Grede? Bullshit.
17:23 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
17:23 Emma Grede? Let's just say that right now.
17:24 Speaker 02 And so.
17:26 Emma Grede? Because it's so frustrating for people to put those two things together.
17:29 Speaker 02 It's gaslighting. It's like the woman who is a single mom working three jobs doesn't need to work harder. Like, that's not the answer. So in my work, I think it's really important that we acknowledge the 80% of the financial equation that is not in your control. The systemic forces, the racism, ableism, sexism, homophobia, a trillion dollar student debt crisis, stagnating minimum wages.
17:50 Emma Grede? I want to just double down on that a little bit because I think it's so important for people to understand. You just said that 80%.
17:56 Speaker 02 Eighty.
17:56 Emma Grede? Right. It's so much that isn't within your control. And so you getting a hold on the 20% that is potentially within your control.
18:04 Speaker 02 Life changing.
18:04 Emma Grede? It's an imperative. It's life changing. But it's not like, maybe I should do that. It's like, if you don't, there's all of these forces outside of your control that make it an impossibility for you. So I think just as a framework for people to think about, it's like, we know it's really difficult. We know that it's like, absolutely without, you know, that we know that it's completely without your control. But that's 80% of it. So you've just got to like shift your attention and be like, this is the stuff that I can wrap my arms around.
18:32 Speaker 02 I'm getting so many messages from women every day going, what's, what's the economy going to do? I'm freaking out. Am I going to lose my job? Layoffs are happening left and right, right? The best thing you can do right now, when everything feels outside of your control, is to take your financial education seriously. It is your most powerful tool right now, so that you can dictate.
18:56 Speaker 02 Your choices, so you can leave when a situation doesn't respect you or turns unhealthy. So you can say yes when you want to say yes, because you don't have to worry about money. Like, this is the thing I need every single woman to hear, is a financial education. It has never been more important than at this moment right now.
19:14 Emma Grede? I couldn't agree with you more. So let's talk about this in practice. What does it look like in practice to take your financial education seriously? Like, what can people do as a practical next step themselves?
19:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, one, listening to this episode is a great place to start.
19:29 Emma Grede? There's that.
19:30 Speaker 02 There's so many resources. There's never been a better time to learn anything, right? The democratization of knowledge is massive, right? So there is so much content out there to teach you how to be good with money. That's my whole job. But I think before we even think about, oh, the podcasts and the YouTube and the books and all of that, you have to start understanding your money narratives. You have to start understanding your financial trauma. And I know that's not fun. I wish I could come on here and be like, I can just give you a like staples that was easy button and you can just hit it and like suddenly you're rich. Right. But that's not how this works.
20:01 Emma Grede? One of the three things that we need to know to better understand our financial narrative. Take me through it as if it's you and you've never done any of this work. What do I need to understand?
20:10 Speaker 02 I think that money narrative, that money memory is huge first, because it's money memory. It's going to tell you a lot and it's also going to go, oh, the reason that I push away money is because I saw that somebody who had a lot of money or who I believed had a lot of money was not a good person, right? Okay, that's why I push away money. The second thing you have to do is you have to know your numbers. And I know this sounds so obvious, but nothing's going to change unless you change it. Nothing in your life changes unless you change it. And you can't change anything until you know what's actually happening. The vast majority of people I talk to, I go, how much money do you make? And they probably know that answer, right? Because they know their salary. And I go, okay, where does it go? Where do you spend money? How much do you save? Blank stare, right? The eyes glaze over.
20:55 Emma Grede? And I really wanna just double down on this a little bit because this also is for business owners. Like I'm speak-
21:02 Speaker 02 Emma, it drives me crazy when people are like, "I'm not good with numbers." Too bad.
21:05 Emma Grede? Or, or, or, "I'm terrible at math."
21:08 Speaker 02 I majored in Cedar, Emma. I have a Cedar degree.
21:11 Emma Grede? I'm dyslexic.
21:12 Speaker 02 Yes. We are the best two people to talk about this.
21:15 Emma Grede? Literally. And so I do wanna just say, and again, this is by no way, shape or form supposed to make women feel bad. But let's just generalize for a little while because I very, very rarely hear this from men. "I'm bad at math, so somebody else deals with the finances." "I, you know, could never wrap my head around numbers well, so I don't know the answer to that question." You do not have a choice, right? Like, tell me if I'm wrong. You have to know your numbers.
21:40 Speaker 02 And it's also, money is not about numbers, really, right? It's about your emotions. It's about managing your emotions. And so many women, that is the number one thing I hear. "Oh, I'm not good with math, so I'm not good with money, I'm not good with numbers." I'm sorry, too bad. Like, I'm really, you have to understand what's going on. And this is where I can help, this is where there are so many people out there. But I think also, if we think we're bad with money, we just think we're born with the good with money DNA trait or the bad with money DNA trait. But like, I didn't come out of the womb learning how to play the tuba and speak Portuguese, right? But somehow, we expect, "Oh, I'm just supposed to know how the stock market works."
22:18 Emma Grede? So you're like, "You can learn this stuff."
22:20 Speaker 02 It is a teachable, learnable skill. And yes, you're gonna be bad at it for a while. Just like if I try to speak a language, I'm gonna mess up, right? And it's not gonna be good. But it's so important that you stay in that vulnerability to learn. And that's where, looking at your numbers, it's gonna feel really scary at first. So my third thing that you can do, this is one of my favorite practices, and I call it financial self-care. Everybody wants to talk about self-care like it's bubble baths and face masks and, you know, a glass bottle of wine, right? And at the end of the day, those are self-soothing actions. Those are things you do at the end of the day when you've had a hard day to like recalibrate. That's great. That's not self-care. Self-care is hard shit. Self-care is going to therapy and eating a salad when you don't want to eat a goddamn salad,
23:04 Speaker 02 and having a hard conversation with a friend and looking at your money. So what I have, I've built this practice for myself that I also teach, where you're gonna sit down, once a month, I love a Sunday, half hour, probably in the early days it might take you longer, an hour, but you're looking at your money. This is on your calendar. It's non-negotiable. Maybe it's something you look forward to. You get takeout from your favorite restaurant. You get to actually enjoy it.
23:27 Emma Grede? I mean, you can put a face mask on.
23:28 Speaker 02 Yes.
23:29 Emma Grede? Have your glass bottle lined. You can double up on this stuff.
23:32 Speaker 02 Absolutely. But like, it's gonna feel uncomfortable at first, but this is how we look at our accounts. We look at where we spent our money. We don't do it without any shame. And that's the big piece, is I'm just like an anthropologist in my own life.
23:45 Emma Grede? But break this down for me. Like, what should people look for?
23:48 Speaker 02 Yep. I'm looking at my credit card statement. I'm looking at subscriptions I forgot to cancel. I'm looking at double charges, right? There's sometimes fraud on your account, but you're also looking for a purchase that you made that in the moment you go, "What the hell was that? Like, I don't even remember spending my money on that." And on the flip side, you're also looking at purchases and going, "That was a great use of my money. That was a night out with my friends. We had a great time."
24:10 Emma Grede? So it's almost like you're educating yourself on your spending patterns, right? You're literally looking at this and you're like, "Oh, look how I do this, like, over and over again."
24:19 Speaker 02 And again, no shame.
24:20 Emma Grede? Actually, some good decisions here.
24:21 Speaker 02 Right. No guilt. You're not going, "Oh, I'm a piece of shit, or I can't do this." It's just like, it's interesting. It's information.
24:26 Emma Grede? Okay.
24:26 Speaker 02 And then beyond that, what we don't talk about enough for women, we talk about a lot of, like, the spending, right? That's, everybody wants to talk about how much women spend money. I want to talk about how do you earn more money as a woman? Like, how do you earn more money? How do you make money work as hard as you do? So that's where I'm talking about making sure you are in the right savings accounts, making sure that you are not just putting your money in a checking account, but it's in what's called a high-yield savings account, which is just like an everyday savings account, except it's gonna earn you more in interest. This is where your, like, more short-term goals should be. So an emergency fund, "I want to buy a house in two years," that's where that money should be hanging out. But beyond that, we have to be investing as women. Because the vast majority of women statistically are either waiting to invest compared to men
25:11 Speaker 02 or not investing at all because we believe it's too risky.
25:14 Emma Grede? Yeah.
25:14 Speaker 02 We believe that investing in the stock market is no different than going to Vegas or betting on horses.
25:18 Emma Grede? Hundred percent. And this is where these emotions come into play again, right?
25:21 Speaker 02 Exactly. And also the narrative that we've been told.
25:24 Emma Grede? Yeah, of course. And a lot of this is just stuff that exists in the culture. This is not even about your own money relationship. It's what you hear and what you're told every day.
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26:32 Speaker 04 Do you ever wish you could ask nosey questions about people's money?
26:35 Speaker 05 I have $729.71 in my bank account.
26:39 Speaker 06 We bought, you know, a $1.3 million house on a $350,000 income.
26:44 Speaker 04 On the podcast, What We Spend, we ask those questions. It's a show about money and all the feelings that come with spending it.
26:51 Speaker 07 I want to be the kind of person who can just take care of the people in my life.
26:56 Speaker 04 Listen to What We Spend, an Odyssey original, available now wherever you get your podcasts.
27:06 Emma Grede? So I'm dying to talk to you about both saving and investing.
27:10 Speaker 02 Great.
27:10 Emma Grede? Seeing as you're the lady that did it at 25 and 27. So let's actually go to saving first.
27:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
27:15 Emma Grede? How did you save $100,000 at 25 years old?
27:21 Speaker 02 I always like to acknowledge the privilege in my story because I think that's really important.
27:24 Emma Grede? Go on then.
27:25 Speaker 02 I graduated college without student loans and that was a combination of my parents having saved money for me, but also I was working three jobs. I was, you know, getting my scholarships, but it was a very collaborative conversation. We would, before every semester, sit down and be like, okay, how are we paying for this? And I love acknowledging that and I think it's really important because I wouldn't have saved 100K that quickly if I had student loans. So that's the first thing. Second thing I did is automate my savings. If you take one thing away from this interview, dear listener, it is automate your savings. I think we think that we get a gold star if we make this as hard as it has to be. Automate your savings. It's the easiest thing you can do.
27:59 Emma Grede? And when you say automate your savings, you're like-
28:01 Speaker 02 It's just like a bill.
28:01 Emma Grede? Have a standing order, direct debit. I don't even know what you call it in America. But you're like, have a payment that comes out of your wage before-
28:07 Speaker 02 Come out of your checking account, goes into your savings account. Maybe that's every time you get paid, maybe that's once a month. And you can start, if you don't have a lot of money, 20 bucks a month. Okay? And you're like, that's not a lot. So like, why would I do anything at all? No. One, it's happening without you having to think about it. And two, you are building the muscle of saving. Because if you can save $20, you can save 200, 2,000, 20,000.
28:28 Emma Grede? Damn right.
28:29 Speaker 02 It's the same habit. So you're building that good habit. Automate your savings. The second thing I did was I diversified my income. So I had my nine to five job that I was saving a portion of, but I was also growing her first 100K on the side.
28:42 Emma Grede? Right.
28:42 Speaker 02 And for a couple of years, really, that didn't make any money. That was my side hustle, absolutely. And I have every intention of taking that full time, but when it started making decent money, cool, I got $400 a month. That doesn't sound like a lot. $400 a month? Think about how life-changing for the average person, $400 a month is. Like, that's a lot. That's huge. I was also investing, right? You mentioned, I started investing at 22.
29:04 Emma Grede? Who taught you how to invest at twenty two?
29:06 Speaker 02 My dad. And that's the other privilege of the financial education.
29:10 Emma Grede? Yes.
29:10 Speaker 02 And that's why I do, again, I knew I was not going to get through this interview without crying at least twice.
29:14 Emma Grede? That's all right. I love a good cry.
29:15 Speaker 02 That's why I do the work that I do because I thought that was normal. I thought, everybody knows not to overspend on credit cards. Everybody knows how to save money. And I realized very quickly that that wasn't the case. So not everybody has a dad to sit down with them. I'm your dad, right? I'm the person who's going to help you do that. But I was so lucky where my dad sat down and was like, okay, here's what an index fund is. Which for anybody listening who doesn't know is a group of stocks. So rather than trying to like cherry pick individual stocks and, which by the way, nobody can do successfully. We're picking a group of stocks. We're helping diversify where our money is. And that's how I started investing through a Roth IRA. And I also was really focused on negotiating my job, negotiating my salary and job hopping.
29:57 Speaker 02 Now, it's a little different now because the job market is different. But twenty sixteen, when I was graduating college, like it was very imperative that you did not stay in a job too long. And I think this is still good advice. If you don't feel compensated fairly.
30:14 Emma Grede? You've got to move.
30:14 Speaker 02 You got, you have one of two decisions, really. You are asking for a raise. And if you don't get it, you are then saying, what do I need to do in the next six months to get to where I want to be? And as you're doing that, you are looking for another position. I did not stay in a role longer than like two and a half years.
30:31 Emma Grede? Wow.
30:31 Speaker 02 And you have the most leverage when you first start a job. And so the moment I was like, I think my income's pretty capped, I was on to the next thing.
30:39 Emma Grede? That's so interesting. I mean, these are really, really good hacks. So do you think it's massively different now? If you think about between those ten years, between two thousand and sixteen and two thousand and twenty six, for somebody sitting here now. How much are you insisting that people are? I'm not saying like just moving around, but really pushing their own financial agenda forward. Like, how much should we be in conversation with our employers to say, I need to earn more money? And then once you get that little bump in your money, how are you treating that?
31:11 Speaker 02 It's a great question. It is different. Like it's hard to believe how much has changed in 10 years. Like, everything's more expensive, absolutely. I think the principles are correct, and also my 100K journey is going to be different than anybody else's, right? But at the same time, I think the way women view money has changed since the pandemic. I think when we were holed up in 2020, and especially for mothers, or people who were caregiving, or just had to think about somebody other than themselves, which I think every woman was doing, we started asking really good questions about the way we earned money, which was, is this working for me anymore? Like, is the system that's set up for the way we traditionally earn money, is that working for me anymore?
31:57 Speaker 02 And the answer is no, it's not working. It's not working for women. And I have seen so many women create generational wealth for themselves and for their families through entrepreneurship. And you mentioned, you know, 100K at 25. I did that, working a corporate job where I was never making over 100K. I think I maxed out at like 77,000. That's pre-tax, right?
32:21 Speaker 02 The reason I went from 100K at 25 to multimillions at 27, yeah, I did the investing. I did all the smart, you know, the budgeting and the debt payoff. I did all of that. But the reason that happened as quickly as it did, entrepreneurship, that was the only thing that really, you know, rocket shipped my wealth.
32:40 Emma Grede? And was there anything in your mind that was holding you back? Like, did you sit there and procrastinate for years?
32:46 Speaker 02 Of course I did, Emma.
32:47 Emma Grede? It's interesting to me because, again, 100K would feel like, all right, this is giving me, you're making 70 odd thousand dollars. This is going to give you a year's runway and some to try and get this thing that was clearly already working into a place where it could be your primary kind of, you know, income.
33:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:02 Emma Grede? But you were still scared.
33:04 Speaker 02 I was still scared.
33:05 Emma Grede? And you did it anyway.
33:06 Speaker 02 And I did it anyway. And I think that is a whole different conversation about the way women view risk, or the way women are taught to view risk.
33:13 Emma Grede? Well, let's talk about this, because I think that risk is inextricably linked with our feelings around money.
33:19 Speaker 02 And investing.
33:20 Emma Grede? And a lot of it is very real, right? Because if you've got dependents, if you're looking after kids, if you've got family members that rely on you, it's a real risk. You can't just be like, I'm gonna up this job. But I think that we have to wrap our heads around these emotional barriers that stop some of the good decision making.
33:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:39 Emma Grede? And I think risk is a huge one for women, because we just Find it so hard to get past this idea that we're gonna like, you know, put it all on red.
33:48 Speaker 02 What we're taught as women is that things are not just facts, they're our identity.
33:54 Emma Grede? Hmm.
33:55 Speaker 02 So you didn't just have this thing fail, you are a failure, right? I didn't fail at this, I'm a failure, right? This person I went on a date with, it didn't work out, so it must mean something about me, right? We do this over and over again in life. And I'm here to tell you that if you wanna be successful, whether it's growing a business, being financially okay, just having enough money to do whatever the hell you wanna do. You have to stop viewing everything that happens as your own personal responsibility. And so the way we view risk as women is it's like, that felt like the biggest decision to me, even though I look back on that now and I was like, okay, what if it didn't work out?
34:40 Speaker 02 You would have been fine. So actually, a question I ask myself a lot is like, actually, what is the worst that can happen?
34:45 Emma Grede? Yes.
34:46 Speaker 02 Cause that's really helpful to me and comforting.
34:47 Emma Grede? And how bad will it be? Because at that point, you're twenty seven. And I think what happens so much in our minds is that we imagine that everything is forever. I'm forty three years old, like, I'm in, you know, what, like, my third kind of professional chapter? And you just keep going and going and some of it works.
35:05 Speaker 02 And you learned.
35:06 Emma Grede? And some of it doesn't. But it's also how you treat the failure, right? Because I failed a million times. And it's like, is this egg on my face or is this information? And I think when you shift it and you go, this is information, this is actually something that I can chalk up and say, I won't do this again next time. The reality is that when, and this is, you know, a lucky part of my story, I am surrounded by men in business, like everywhere in my life, my investors around in, you know, the guys I hang around, my own husband, his friends. And I see them fail over and over and over again. And I see them lose a ton of money and I see them like have disasters in their business and they go, on to the next one.
35:46 Speaker 02 They're also allowed to do that.
35:48 Emma Grede? Well, and that's the part of it, right? But I feel like there's this huge kind of societal. Part that's like, okay, we know that within the culture, we don't allow women to do that so well. But it can't be, you can't add your own narrative to that as well. You can't be like this terrible, I did this terrible thing. It's like, okay, what's going to happen in the outside, like that is noise. And slowly but surely, that is, I believe it's changing a little bit. Not as quickly as we want it to be, but it's changing a little bit. But you can't add to that narrative and make, you know, be your own worst enemy.
36:18 Speaker 02 Well, and the way you practice taking risks is just these small micro moments, right? Like, I am happily partnered now, but when I was like, out on, I was gonna say out on the streets. When I was out there.
36:32 Speaker 02 No, it was like, I would just go up to men and ask them out on a date. Now, would I love if they said yes? Of course, but I was not doing it in the hopes that they said yes. I did not put the weight of the interaction on the outcome. I was doing it to build my own muscle of risk. So I was like, okay. And every time my, you know, palms sweaty, knees weak, arms set, like every single time I was like, oh my God, I'm about to ask this person out. It's so scary. It's so invulnerable. I would do it. Didn't matter the outcome, right? Did not matter. Didn't matter if I got a number. Did not matter if they're like, you're ugly. Did not, like, it did not matter. But I took the risk so that I left feeling like, okay, I'm still alive. Nothing bad happened to me. I'll never see this person again if I botch it. Fine.
37:17 Emma Grede? You're losing me now, babe. I've never asked anybody out.
37:21 Speaker 02 You don't need to.
37:21 Emma Grede? I know, no, but like that, that is just not so, it's so funny because I feel like I'm, you know, and again, everybody like chooses they're brave, right? Everybody chooses.
37:31 Emma Grede? But I love this idea that you practice this skill somewhere else in your life. And inevitably you will get rejection. But again, it's not the end of the world.
37:41 Speaker 02 At a hotel.
37:41 Emma Grede? But that's, and it can come from all of these things, but you've got to ask, you've got to put yourself out there. You've got to actually practice.
37:47 Speaker 02 And then you start realizing your, your brain and body actually start realizing.
37:51 Emma Grede? I agree with you on that.
37:52 Speaker 02 Oh, I did this scary thing that like I had an emotional, like physical, physiological response to. Like I got sweaty and it's like, there's a bear chasing me, right? Like your body doesn't feel any different. And then when you survive it and survive it again and survive it again, you're like, oh, I can invest in the stock market. Or I can start this business because if it doesn't work out, I'm still gonna be okay.
38:12 Emma Grede? You're still gonna be okay. All right, let's talk about investing.
38:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:15 Emma Grede? Because this is one that really trips people up. And there's something amazing that you say about rich people, poor people. You say your line, which I just love. Do you know what I'm talking about?
38:25 Speaker 02 No.
38:25 Emma Grede? Oh, it's my favorite thing that you say.
38:27 Speaker 02 My body's just getting flooded in sweat. I'm like, Emma, what am I talking about?
38:30 Emma Grede? So you go, uh, something, you go like this, you go, investing isn't just for rich people.
38:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:36 Emma Grede? It's how people become rich.
38:37 Speaker 02 Yes.
38:38 Emma Grede? And I was like, I just know that so many of the women that surround me and so many of the people that I work with, they're like, of course I can't invest. I'm not rich. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, you got it. You got it all wrong. Like, this is going to help you become rich.
38:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:52 Emma Grede? And when you said it so beautifully, by the way, I should have just taken the line.
38:58 Emma Grede? But it was so, it's such a truism because I feel like just the majority of people just go, investing is for those people over there with the lots of money.
39:06 Speaker 02 Yeah. So we've been talking about money narratives this whole time. One of the worst money narratives I hear is that, again, the reason you're not rich as a woman is because you spend money. And pick, sing, right? You spend money on lattes or manicures or blowouts at the salon, right? So then the answer is scrimp, right? That is, one, bad math, because there's only so much you can scrimp on, right? Like, let's say we cut everything fun. That's not actually gonna do anything for you. That's not gonna make you rich. That's not gonna make you financially stable. But two, that is insanely gendered, right? The things that we get told are frivolous spending are the lattes and the Taylor Swift tickets. It's not NFL season tickets. It's not video games. It's not.
39:51 Emma Grede? That is so crazy.
39:53 Speaker 02 It's not golf clubs, right? So what is the advice for men? The advice for women, shrink, right? Stop spending money. That shopping trip, your shopping addiction is the reason you're not rich. But the advice for men is very good. It is expand. Rather than shrink, it's expand. Make more money, invest in the stock market, negotiate your salary, start a business, invest in real estate. So this is what I want to talk about because this is how people actually get rich. And this is the advice you don't hear from women as much that actually has the ability to catapult your wealth. So you're right. Everybody thinks investing is just for rich people. Investing is not actually about the amount of money you have. It's about as much time as you have. So the joke I always make is like, do I wish you
40:35 Speaker 02 invested yesterday? Absolutely. But like, we have to get started today. So what that looks like is investing through a workplace retirement account. For the average person, that's like a 401k. If a 401k is not offered, that's a IRA, which is an individual retirement account. And a lot of people tell me, oh, I want to start investing. And I go, cool, do you have a 401k? And they go, yeah. But that's not really investing. No, it is. It's actually the best kind of investing because it's what's called taxed advantaged investing, meaning that the government is incentivizing you to save for retirement by offering you tax breaks, which is incredible. The mistake, though, I see women make time and time again, that I half, I just like, if you've been tuning us out-
41:15 Emma Grede? I know exactly what you're gonna say.
41:17 Speaker 02 If you're somewhere and you like are half listening to this episode, I need you to dial back in. Women don't understand that investing is a two-step process.
41:24 Emma Grede? They don't make the selections, right?
41:26 Speaker 02 Yes.
41:26 Emma Grede? It's so funny because when I came to, I mean, again, the system in England is very, very different.
41:31 Speaker 02 It's very different.
41:31 Emma Grede? So I had to relearn it when I came here. And so of course, you know, we have these wonderful companies, we offer a 401k, everybody got their 401k and then didn't do the second step. And I was like, guys, you have to go into this thing and you have to make selections. But that is just not widely, I don't know, is it just, why is it not taught?
41:50 Speaker 02 Oh, Emma, why isn't it taught? Because a multi-multi-billion dollar industry exists by making you feel like you're too stupid to understand.
41:58 Emma Grede? Okay, there's that.
41:59 Speaker 02 They have built these platforms to be way more confusing than they need to be.
42:03 Emma Grede? Right.
42:03 Speaker 02 So that you give your money to a wealth manager that by the way, has no idea what they're doing. Yeah, they're they're making you feel like, I can't do this. Again, I don't have a degree in finance. I never, nobody ever taught me this.
42:13 Emma Grede? But this goes back to the financial education piece, right?
42:16 Speaker 02 Yes, it does.
42:17 Emma Grede? Your responsibility to figure this stuff out.
42:19 Speaker 02 And also taking the jargon out of it, too.
42:21 Emma Grede? That was my next question for you because there's so much jargon. And again, I feel like, you know, again, I'm much older than you, but I came here eight years ago and had to relearn all of that jargon. Because I felt a responsibility to my staff to explain it to them. I was like, guys, this is not going to work for you in the way that it's actually set up to work for you.
42:42 Speaker 02 So that two-step process is so crucial where you're opening the account.
42:45 Emma Grede? Yeah.
42:45 Speaker 02 The 401k, the IRA, the brokerage account, which is just a general investing account. But then you have to choose your investments. So it's not like a bank account where you just put a thousand dollars in, you like wipe your hands and you're good. You have to go choose your investments. So that account is not the investments, the index funds or the individual stocks, if you want to go that way, like those are the investments. So what I do when I invest is I put money into my investing account, put money into my Roth IRA, let's say that's 500 bucks. And then I go buy 500 dollars worth of an index fund, right? It's like getting a gift card. I like have purchased the gift card. I need to go buy things with the gift card. But you're exactly right where the jargon is not an accident. The jargon is meant you meant to make you feel dumb. And it's also meant to make men feel smart.
43:29 Speaker 02 Like honestly, it's just there to like, you could call all of these things different names and make it much simpler. But I think it feels more sophisticated if they have a sophisticated name.
43:40 Emma Grede? Got it.
43:40 Speaker 02 And really, at the end of the day, that is what investing is, is putting your money in these accounts. Making sure you've actually purchased your investments or else your money is just sitting in purgatory. And then doing that over and over and over and over again. And that's investing.
43:54 Emma Grede? And how often are you looking at that?
43:57 Speaker 02 Once a month?
43:58 Emma Grede? Every month, once a month.
44:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, in my financial self-care time, right? In my money date time. But I think beyond that, too, this is where we have to create systems with our money. And this is the thing I don't think enough people talk about, which is you will go through a state, maybe after you listen to this episode, where you realize, I have not looked at my money in a long time. And then you will become obsessed and you'll look at your money all of the time. I don't think that's a bad thing. Like, this is the hero's journey. You're gonna go on it. I can't tell you not to. You're gonna look at your money all the time. The goal, actually, is that we're getting you back to a point where you barely look at your money. And it's not because you're ostriching. It's because you've got everything dialed in.
44:36 Emma Grede? Yes.
44:37 Speaker 02 I have automated my savings. I've automated my investments. I know where my money's going. I make more money. I know what to do when I then make more money. And this is like where it really becomes fun, because suddenly then, money, again, continues to be a tool. And it's not your obsession anymore.
44:54 Emma Grede? Yeah.
44:55 Speaker 02 You're not checking it all the time. It's just like, oh, yeah, I know this is working because I've set up systems to support it working.
45:01 Emma Grede? Absolutely. And I think that that's a really key point, because we're so much sold, this idea of getting rich quick and things changing overnight. And the facts are that when you're investing, it's a slow burn. Like, no one is just getting really wealthy overnight. But I think it's important for people to understand that, you know, this is about the long term. This is about you being great when you're sixty and seventy, right? So will you just explain about, you know, just a little bit about compounding interest and how people should really view their investment portfolio?
45:35 Speaker 02 You're exactly right. Investing is a long-term game. It is not day-to-day. It's not week-to-week. It's not month-to-month. It's not really even year-to-year. We're talking years, if not decades. And there are so many people out there telling you, oh, you can day trade and you can buy and sell stocks. And it's, no, it's fully a scam. Like, it's fully a scam.
45:55 Emma Grede? Don't do that, girls.
45:57 Speaker 02 And when you think that investing's gambling, that is gambling. That is what we're talking about when people think investing's gambling. If you choose something like an index fund, that is a long-term diversified investment, where you are holding it for years, if not decades. So, yes, as much as, again, I could wish I could come in and be like, I'm gonna come on this show and teach you how to get rich by next Tuesday. Like, that's not happening. And it's not because I'm not good at my job. It's because this is how this works is investing is a long term strategy. And fun fact, it has never lost. So women are so afraid of losing money on the stock market. If you put your money into an investment and you take it out the next day, you're going to make money half the time. But if you keep that investment in for a year, your percentage goes up to around 60%.
46:40 Speaker 02 Over a 10 year period, it's 88%. And over every single documented 20 year period so far, in the 100 plus years of the stock market, you have been 100% likely to make money. So if you're scared of losing money, the answer is to be patient.
46:55 Emma Grede? Yes.
46:55 Speaker 02 And again, it's not a fun answer, but that's the real answer.
46:58 Emma Grede? Yeah, I feel like so many women are told to like, wait until they feel ready before investing. But when is that feeling ever coming to you?
47:06 Speaker 02 Ready is not a feeling, it's a decision.
47:08 Emma Grede? Thank you.
47:09 Speaker 02 It's everything. Oh, when I, when I feel ready, I'll start that business. When I feel ready, I'll do my fitness goals. When I feel ready, no.
47:14 Emma Grede? Yeah, the confidence comes actually from action, from you being in it, from you having done it, from you making the selections.
47:20 Speaker 02 You're living proof of that. You are like the best role model for that.
47:23 Emma Grede? Thank you, I'll take it.
47:24 Speaker 02 It is so important. Like if you have big goals, and I know you do, you're listening to the show, you're not just going to have inspiration or motivation strike. You are not going to suddenly wake up and be like, oh, I'm going to undo 10 years of financial trauma. Like it's, it's gonna take work.
47:40 Emma Grede? It's practice.
47:41 Speaker 02 It's gonna take work.
47:41 Emma Grede? Yeah.
47:50 Emma Grede? So for someone that feels intimidating, like what is the first decision? Like, what do you do to get actually started investing? Like outside of the 401k piece? How does someone start?
48:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think all of those narratives, again, we have to work through. I mean, I will shamelessly plug because I'm really proud of it. We have a community.
48:10 Emma Grede? First of all, it's not a shameless plug, because I think that the work you do, the community that you've built, Financial Feminist, is excellent.
48:18 Speaker 02 Thank you.
48:18 Emma Grede? And I feel like for anyone that actually...
48:20 Speaker 02 That means a lot, thank you.
48:21 Emma Grede? No, and I mean it really, truly. And that's the reason I've got you on today. For anybody that wants to take their financial wellness seriously. It is an incredible show to listen to because you are really digging into this. And again, not just from a practical way, but really thinking about women's emotional response, what's happening in the culture, what we know, what we've been told. And you've kind of built this beautiful platform where you are actually moving women forward in the way that they're thinking, in the way that they get to action. And I'm sure you've got a lot of results. I'm sure there's like a ton of women that are doing incredible things after they go through your courses, after they've listened to the podcast, after they've, you know, had, you know, because I know that you do a lot of, what do you call it?
49:02 Emma Grede? Just inspiring and you know, just inspiring.
49:07 Speaker 02 No, we get, we get great results. I'm really proud of it.
49:09 Emma Grede? At the end of the day, there's a huge impact that's coming out of the work that you're doing.
49:13 Speaker 02 So one of the things that I was lucky enough to be able to do last year is I rang the opening bell at the Nasdaq Stock Exchange. And it was because we have helped women through our Stock Market School community invest over a hundred and thirty five million dollars.
49:25 Emma Grede? I mean, that's nuts, isn't it?
49:27 Speaker 02 Like, again, I like get so, I'm a cancer, I cry at everything. I'm like, it makes me so, so proud. And it also isn't just hypothetical or just education, it's actually bridging wealth gaps. So the reason we built this community is because there's a lot of courses about how to invest, and that's great, but you're not actually necessarily doing it. And then there's a lot of the platforms that you get on and immediately, they're so confusing.
49:51 Emma Grede? So confusing.
49:52 Speaker 02 And I'm a financial expert, they're so confusing. So what we've done is literally built an investing app from scratch for the Her First Hundred K community. So we're not just teaching them how to invest, but in that first call, we kick off with like this live workshop, I teach them how to invest, forty five minutes in, they make their first investment. And what happens is I always check in with them because the emotions of money is so important. And I ask them to tell me, when you walked in here, how did you feel and how do you feel now? And what they all say is, I walked in feeling really nervous or really intimidated. And I actually now feel like I can do this. And like, that is the feeling I want for every single woman on this planet. And you're exactly right. It feels so scary when you first get started. Everything feels so scary when you first start.
50:34 Speaker 02 But when you start making these decisions for yourself, you start growing your own confidence and you go, oh, I can't do this. And that was so scary two months ago, but I feel good about this.
50:44 Emma Grede? Yeah.
50:45 Speaker 02 And like, that is the transformation that starts to happen, but it only happens when you start.
50:51 Emma Grede? When you do.
50:51 Speaker 02 You only get the thing if you do the thing.
50:53 Emma Grede? And I think what people don't understand is the connectedness, like how everything starts making sense. You then read something and you're like, oh, I have a better appreciation of that. I'm going to use this piece of information and connect it over here. Perhaps I'm going to do something that is slightly more risky. But if you don't start, like, where are you going?
51:12 Speaker 02 And at the beginning, I was telling you about, you know, all these messages we get from women now, where they're telling me a financial goal, but then they're telling me how they feel. And when you are financially okay, you get to exercise your self-worth in every single situation. But
51:27 Emma Grede? Same old?
51:27 Speaker 02 When you're in a situation that doesn't respect you, you're in a relationship, you're in an apartment that doesn't feel safe, you're in a job that doesn't feel safe. I have been there. I have been in a job that was abusive, that was misogynistic. I was in a workplace where I did not enjoy coming to work.
51:45 Emma Grede? Hmm.
51:46 Speaker 02 But I couldn't leave because I didn't have enough money. We see women in domestically abusive relationships. The number one reason they can't leave is money. Ninety-nine percent of abusive relationships have some sort of financial abuse tied to them.
51:57 Emma Grede? Yeah.
51:58 Speaker 02 On the flip side, I get to say yes all of the time. When somebody invites me on a trip, I don't go, oh, shoot, I don't know if I can afford it.
52:06 Emma Grede? Totally.
52:07 Speaker 02 I go, yeah, absolutely. And I'll pay for half of it or I'll buy you dinner or whatever. Like, I get to do things for my parents now that I never dreamt I'd get to do. I get to be the most generous version of myself. And like, there's this great quote that like, money doesn't change you, it just shows you who you are. And this is why it's absolutely imperative for women, especially at this moment, to get rich. Because I want money in the hands of the most generous, kind, self-aware, socially aware group of people on the planet, and that is women.
52:39 Emma Grede? Hundred percent, because women are proven to do different things with their money.
52:43 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
52:44 Emma Grede? When women actually get a ton of money, they're more philanthropic.
52:47 Speaker 02 Yep.
52:48 Emma Grede? They are way more generous, they look after their community. They look after their families. I mean, it's extremely, I was reading something amazing this morning or yesterday, whenever it was, it was a list of the wealthiest families in the world and what percentage of their wealth they were giving away.
53:04 Speaker 02 I saw the same thing.
53:04 Emma Grede? In each of the six richest families in this country, it was a matriarch, a woman that was actually leading the philanthropic giving. It's like, make no mistake.
53:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:13 Emma Grede? When people get rich, it's the woman that is actually figuring out, how do we make this more fair, more equitable, give to where money is needed?
53:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:21 Emma Grede? It's pretty extraordinary.
53:22 Speaker 02 And most women listening, you know, you don't, I'm not talking like, you don't need Jeff Bezos money, right?
53:27 Emma Grede? I am just saying. Nobody does.
53:29 Speaker 02 You, nobody, thank you, Emma, nobody does. I'm just saying, you need enough money where you get to say yes when you want to say yes.
53:36 Emma Grede? Hell yeah.
53:36 Speaker 02 No when you want to say no.
53:37 Emma Grede? Yeah.
53:37 Speaker 02 That just means that you have a financially stable life where you get to be, again, the biggest, baddest, best version of yourself.
53:45 Emma Grede? Totally.
53:46 Speaker 02 And that is more in reach than you might think.
53:48 Emma Grede? So before we move on from investing, I want to make sure that people have really got it.
53:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
53:52 Emma Grede? They give me just the top three things.
53:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:55 Emma Grede? That somebody who feels pretty secure in how, you know, they've got their 401k in check. What is the, what are the next things that they should do to make sure that they are dipping their toe into investing in the most responsible way? That it's at a risk level that they can tolerate. Like, where do you go?
54:12 Speaker 02 Yeah. If you have retirement accounts that are offered to you through work, that is the best place to start.
54:17 Emma Grede? Take it.
54:18 Speaker 02 Take it. Because again, tax advantaged money, but also if you are at a company that will match part of that income, like we do at her first hundred K, I believe you do as well.
54:26 Emma Grede? Absolutely, we do.
54:26 Speaker 02 So there's something so cool about being able to say, okay, 4% match, that means if you contribute 4% of your salary, your employer's going to match you at 4%. So you just contributed 8%, but only did half the work. That is free money. There's nowhere that's free money anymore. Like, that's incredible. So take your 401k, do everything you can to max it out if you can, but at least get up to that match because it's free money. The second thing we want to think about doing is if you don't have a 401k, or if you're investing or saving more than that 401k, invest in what's called a Roth IRA. This is an individual retirement account that almost anybody can open. And that way you can continue investing for things like retirement, which is the biggest expense of your life in a way that's going to be able to build that investments.
55:10 Speaker 02 If you want even more flexibility, a brokerage account is going to be your friend because there's no restrictions. There's no, well, you can only contribute this much or, you know, the tax reasons around it. You can contribute millions of dollars if you have it hypothetically. Like, that is the most flexible option. And that's kind of your order of operations in terms of where to go. But the thing I do in all of my accounts is I buy the same investments. Every place I'm at, I'm investing in 401K, IRA, brokerage account, does not matter. For me, it's index funds. That's what I teach in stock market school as well, because those are diversified investments. Rather than trying to cherry pick stocks, which no one can do, you are helping make sure, you're mitigating your risk by saying, okay, rather than just in putting all my eggs in one basket, I'm putting them in hundreds, if not thousands of baskets.
55:54 Emma Grede? But I love that because I feel, again, it is so personal, but I feel like a great way to think about this is to connect it to your vision. Like, what are the things that you want? What are the things that you hope for? What are you trying to achieve? And work backwards from that, because often it's like, all right, like, I'm going to feel fine doing 10%, but it's actually not getting you to where you want to go. So you're going to have to up it. So it's really having that honest conversation with yourself. And once you've unpacked that money narrative, then you've got to like force yourself into your future self and go, what am I trying to optimize for?
56:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, you're exactly right, is understanding why you're doing this. Why are you getting out of debt? Why are you investing? Like, I'm investing for like 65-year-old me, who's going to be like drinking wine and adopting dogs on a villa in Italy and is flirting with her much younger Pilates instructor named Luca. Like, these are all the things I'm doing.
56:41 Emma Grede? All the things.
56:41 Speaker 02 Like, that's 65-year-old me's retirement plan, and I can't do that unless I put in work now.
56:45 Emma Grede? I want to ask you quickly about relationships and money, because this is always like such a tricky thing.
56:51 Speaker 02 Everybody wants to talk to me about this. I love it. It's so fun.
56:53 Emma Grede? Well, it's an interesting one, right? Because I feel like women are in such an amazing position right now.
56:58 Speaker 02 We're making more money than men now.
57:00 Emma Grede? Making more money at law. So what do you do if your boyfriend's broke?
57:05 Speaker 02 The first thing I'll tell you, Emma, is that I have made more money than any man I've ever been on a date with, and it's the coolest fucking thing in the entire world.
57:13 Emma Grede? Wow, it's also really cool when you get out of a ritual one, you know that?
57:16 Speaker 02 No, totally. No, I have been in a happy relationship.
57:18 Emma Grede? You're amazing. Wait a minute, every single guy you've ever been out with, you've made more money than?
57:24 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
57:25 Emma Grede? Wow.
57:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, one Googled me in front of me, which was very weird.
57:27 Emma Grede? Oh.
57:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:29 Emma Grede? Did you stay with him?
57:30 Speaker 02 Absolutely not. No, that was a one and done date.
57:31 Emma Grede? You're like, oh, not in front of me?
57:33 Speaker 02 Not in front of me, dude.
57:34 Emma Grede? Oh, my man. After, before.
57:36 Speaker 02 Crazy.
57:37 Emma Grede? Come in with the information.
57:38 Speaker 02 Crazy, yeah.
57:39 Emma Grede? You would never have done that.
57:40 Speaker 02 Crazy.
57:41 Emma Grede? Wow.
57:42 Speaker 02 No, I've been with my now partner for four years, and we make very different money. And I joke, I keep his privacy, but he's a civilian.
57:47 Emma Grede? Mm hmm.
57:48 Speaker 02 He doesn't like, doesn't have social media.
57:51 Emma Grede? He's not on about the podcast.
57:52 Speaker 02 No, no, no, absolutely not. And we had to have a lot of conversations, and still do. And there's been so many people now talking, I think, more about this, because women are making more money, a lot, than their male partners. The first red flag is if your man or your partner is threatened by that, we're out. We're out.
58:12 Emma Grede? Yeah.
58:13 Speaker 02 If they feel uncomfortable and they're expressing that to you, that is workable. Because my partner is a very good feminist. I wouldn't be dating him if he wasn't. But I remember we were at like a teriyaki restaurant, okay? And I, it was like, I don't know, $25 dinner, and I bought it. Never. And he came to me and he was like, I really want to feel like an equal partner to you, and I sometimes feel like I can't. And I was like, I'm not looking for equal, I'm looking for equitable. And at this time, we weren't living together. And I was like, let's say we moved in together, I make a vastly different amount of money than you do. I would not expect you to split that with me 50/50, because that just doesn't make sense. But this is where you have to have conversations.
58:57 Emma Grede? Conversations.
58:58 Speaker 02 Because the number one cause of marital stress is money. The number one cause of divorce is money. And it's because we're not talking about it. We're not speaking to it. And this is like, perfect full circle in this interview, but like, we have to talk about money, especially with the people in our life that we're hoping to share our lives with. You have to be open about your financial trauma, about the way you view money, and also... Just what you expect out of your partner. Some people I think are like, yeah, I want my partner to pay for everything. And other people say, no, I want this to be more equitable. But you have to figure out what that looks like for you.
59:31 Emma Grede? It's a really important conversation to have, actually, because there's so many women that, you know, I feel like for every, I don't know, for every single woman that I know, there's like zero negative men, right?
59:45 Speaker 02 Literally, literally.
59:46 Emma Grede? Could have said that the other way around, but it's like, maybe for every 10 single guys, I don't know, there's just like, there's just like a hundred million women. Like, I don't even know what to say. It's crazy. But by the same token, I don't know that many women who are openly happy to date down in income. Like, I don't.
1:00:08 Speaker 02 I'm one of them.
1:00:08 Emma Grede? No, and I think it's really interesting that you would say that.
1:00:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:11 Emma Grede? And be honest about it, because the reality is that you probably, like anything in life, don't get everything, right? You don't get the guy who actually is a feminist, who feels very comfortable with his ego.
1:00:22 Speaker 02 That's the thing, Emma.
1:00:23 Emma Grede? In a guy, in a woman.
1:00:24 Speaker 02 I've met rich guys. Some of them are really pleasant.
1:00:26 Emma Grede? And some of them are ourselves.
1:00:27 Speaker 02 And also really not fun to be around and.
1:00:31 Emma Grede? Or interesting, or, you know, a myriad of other things that you're looking for in a relationship.
1:00:35 Speaker 02 And again, somebody listening might be, no, I really need a financially equal partner. For me, it was much more important to have a values-based relationship. He was still contributing and maxing out his Roth IRA. Like, and that sounds like, what should that matter? That told me so much more than the money. That told me.
1:00:50 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:00:51 Speaker 02 I value saving. I think about the future. I am diligent in the way I've set up the systems for my money. Like, that told me a lot, right?
1:00:58 Emma Grede? Totally.
1:00:58 Speaker 02 So you might not have a lot of money, but are you being very smart and practical with it? Absolutely. And I also think that this is, you know, the classic, like, money, again, is a tool. It also, for me, is not the end-all, be-all. I was so much more focused on, like, who are you as a person? If I build a life with you, like, can we think about money and think about hard conversations? And come out of those hard conversations still buddies?
1:01:25 Emma Grede? Yeah, great, great. What do you think about couples in terms of like how they combine in finances? Do you think that you should combine or you should keep it separate?
1:01:34 Speaker 02 Should never completely combine your finances. This is one of my most controversial money opinions, Emma.
1:01:39 Emma Grede? Let's go.
1:01:39 Speaker 02 Because you always need some of your own money. Unfortunately, there are so many women in our emails every single week and I could show you, I could scroll for days.
1:01:51 Emma Grede? You don't need to show me because you're just so many friends.
1:01:54 Speaker 02 They're probably in your DMs too.
1:01:54 Emma Grede? Right, no, but it's also just like I have so many friends who get to a certain age and maybe wanna leave their significant other and can't.
1:02:02 Speaker 02 Or their significant other leaves them.
1:02:04 Emma Grede? And they're fucked.
1:02:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're quite literally fucked. So, we need some of our own money for all of the reasons I just outlined, but also like the fun stuff of like, I wanna be able to like, go and spend X amount of money without consulting my partner first. So that's the first conversation is like, what amount of money do we both feel like we can spend without having to have like a family conference about it? That might be 300 bucks, that might be, I don't know, a thousand, might be more than that, I don't know. But that number is unique per couple, right? So, that is the money that you know, yep, I can go spend it on my hobby and not have to have a conference call about it. But I think beyond that, at the very minimum, looks like six months of living expenses, or even three months of living expenses. If that's the only thing you have, that is better than nothing, in terms of separate.
1:02:48 Speaker 02 I think the most ideal is having your separate accounts, so your savings and your investments, your savings and your investments, and then a joint account for shared expenses. So, your rent, your groceries, that sort of thing. That's like a really good hybrid.
1:03:01 Emma Grede? Yes.
1:03:02 Speaker 02 While also still protecting the autonomy of both people's financial futures.
1:03:06 Emma Grede? So what do you feel like when you see the kind of rise of tradwives and you know, women that are really choosing not to, you know, work outside the home?
1:03:17 Speaker 02 So my mom is a non-compensated working mom, she's a stay-at-home mom. And I am so thankful for that, because my mom was my chauffeur for T-ball practice and for piano lessons, and also was there always to, you know, support me in that. But they have a very equitable relationship. Like, my dad brings home the bacon, my mom does all of the work to fry that bake, like, and they have worked that out together. My mom has a spousal IRA, which means that my dad is contributing to her retirement account.
1:03:52 Emma Grede? Yes.
1:03:53 Speaker 02 Like, one of my most controversial videos ever is I said, if you're a stay-at-home mom, your husband should be paying you a salary. And salary is a word I use to purposely be a little spicy, but like, you need to have some sort of income coming in.
1:04:05 Emma Grede? Compensation.
1:04:06 Speaker 02 From the compensated partner. Spousal IRAs exist for that kind of reason. The issue I have with tradwives...
1:04:13 Speaker 02 Is that they are giving you a version of life that feels very idyllic. I'm gonna waltz through my wildflowers and I'm gonna milk my cows and I'm gonna bring the milk in and I'm gonna make, I don't know, all of these things from scratch. And like, the reason it feels so idyllic is we're all really burned out as women. We're all really tired. And I don't think we have a lot of people that like, take care of us. Because even though I'm a good independent feminist, like, I like being taken care of sometimes.
1:04:43 Emma Grede? Of course.
1:04:44 Speaker 02 So I see the temptation of that. But the interesting thing about tradwives becoming so popular is that you are telling me-
1:04:52 Emma Grede? Sorry. I just know what's gonna come out of your mouth right now, but I'm gonna-
1:04:56 Speaker 02 You are telling me that this idyllic lifestyle, you're performing this for me on an Instagram account that makes money.
1:05:04 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:05:05 Speaker 02 You are selling-
1:05:07 Emma Grede? Pretty high production.
1:05:08 Speaker 02 You're selling your milk and you're selling your whatever.
1:05:11 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:05:12 Speaker 02 You're a business. You are now the breadwinner of your house. And yet you're telling me and selling me on the idea that, oh, money's not my job. It's just, I don't know, I don't worry about money. That's somebody else's job. You are making money. You are an entrepreneur and a damn good one because you're making millions of dollars selling this lifestyle.
1:05:35 Emma Grede? I've been trying to get them on. Any tradwife that wants to come and chat to me, I'm here. I'm like, let's go. It's interesting though, isn't it? Because they are businesswomen and they're making a ton of money. And I'm like, I'm here, I'm here for it. I'm all for it. But it's-
1:05:49 Speaker 02 But you're selling, I'm not for selling, no, you're not either, selling a lifestyle that is like, so damaging to women. And also, we give away our power so often as women because we don't know any better. I just woke up in my twenties and realized all of the ways I was giving away my power and all of the ways that I was allowing usually men in my life to speak down to me or make me feel small. And every moment of my life that happened where that happened and I allowed that behavior, I just felt it was awful. So if- You are giving away your financial power. You're giving away your agency, your autonomy. You are giving away so much that might feel right now like freedom.
1:06:33 Speaker 02 And it, the more probably practical thing that I see, because I don't think any of the listeners might be, I don't know, maybe you're listening. But I think the thing I've been stewing on lately, I have this theory that because there's so much emotional labor that women have to do in a traditional heteronormative relationship, you have to think about the T-Ball practice and the cooking and the cleaning. And somebody needs this gift. And like, there's so much emotional labor that women are doing that we're so quick to give away the finances. Because we're like,
1:07:06 Emma Grede? One less thing to do.
1:07:07 Speaker 02 One less thing to do. And men, men are better, men can do it, men can handle it. So,
1:07:11 Emma Grede? Well, it comes more naturally to a lot of men, right?
1:07:14 Speaker 02 Because they've been socially conditioned. Yeah. And they, you know, they were taught about money in a way that women weren't. And it's so understandable. We're so exhausted, we're so tired. It's like, cool, we can give that away. But what are you really giving away?
1:07:28 Emma Grede? What are you giving away? Ain't that just the thing? I mean, I am fascinated by you because you've taken this, obviously, what started in your upbringing, right?
1:07:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:07:38 Emma Grede? And you have turned it into a real business. And I want to switch gears a bit because I think it's pretty fascinating for those people that perhaps don't listen to your podcast or subscribe to your newsletter or haven't taken one of your courses or the myriad of kind of empire shit that you're doing right now. Can you just give a little overview of what your business looks like today?
1:07:58 Speaker 02 Yeah. So we have multiple sources of income at her first hundred K. And those range from the podcast ads to my book sales, but also to our programs where we teach women how to be better with money. We also have five million people in our social audiences. So that looks like classic influencer deals or affiliate partnerships. Speaking, that's my favorite thing to do, my theater degree. Like, I feel so comfortable in front of like 5,000 people. Like, that's my favorite thing to do.
1:08:30 Emma Grede? Let's go.
1:08:30 Speaker 02 It's so good. And So that business now has grown to multi millions. But what I'm really, really proud of is the culture we've created at our team.
1:08:42 Emma Grede? Yeah, and the culture that you're like creating, I think for a wider audience is so uplifting and so positive. And it's having such impact.
1:08:50 Speaker 02 I hope so.
1:08:51 Emma Grede? I think I know so. I think so.
1:08:53 Speaker 02 One of the things that we were really intentional doing, and I have to shout out my COO, Karina Patel. She's absolutely incredible and has helped me think about this so much, especially she's really good. Like to continue the theater metaphor, like if I'm on stage, she's the stage manager in the back, making sure everything's running. And we were really intentional about creating a company that didn't exist when we were first starting our careers. We both worked in pretty, yeah, masculine environments that ended up being pretty toxic. And we were both like, we want to treat our people the way we wish we were treated. So we offer unlimited PTO. We shut down the entire company for a week every quarter where
1:09:31 Emma Grede? What?
1:09:32 Speaker 02 Everybody knows, like, we're offline. We are out of office message is like, hey, we'll get back to you. Nothing's urgent, like we're not curing cancer. We're not putting out fires. This is really important work, but like we will get back to you next Monday. We do paid menstrual leave at our company because
1:09:48 Emma Grede? I know you definitely said it because I was like.
1:09:50 Speaker 02 Which we do, it's, it's so important because everybody who works on our team right now is women. And like, that's a serious thing. No men right now.
1:09:59 Emma Grede? No men?
1:10:00 Speaker 02 No men right now.
1:10:00 Emma Grede? Wow.
1:10:02 Speaker 02 Family leave, we are so committed to making sure that we are creating the kind of company that, yeah, I wished I worked at. Because if I'm gonna try to grow a business and to do all of these really cool things. Like, that's my favorite part is to be able to actually start changing the way we think about work and the way we take care of people. And we're, you know, a pretty small organization.
1:10:27 Emma Grede? How many of you are there?
1:10:29 Speaker 02 There are seven full-time W2s, 17 in total. So I think about 10 contractors.
1:10:34 Emma Grede? And are you profitable?
1:10:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, oh yeah.
1:10:37 Emma Grede? Nice.
1:10:37 Speaker 02 We've always been profitable. I started with forty dollars.
1:10:40 Emma Grede? You know, really?
1:10:41 Speaker 02 Forty dollars.
1:10:42 Emma Grede? Right from the beginning?
1:10:43 Speaker 02 Twenty sixteen, forty bucks.
1:10:44 Emma Grede? Nice, I'll take it.
1:10:45 Speaker 02 And I'll tell you how much we made. We made seven million in revenue last year.
1:10:49 Emma Grede? Good for you, darling. I mean, that's really impressive.
1:10:52 Speaker 02 Never had outside investment. Like, I am really proud of it. Now, it's not a skims. It's not a good American.
1:10:57 Emma Grede? Not everything has to be.
1:10:58 Speaker 02 Not everything has to be.
1:10:59 Emma Grede? But this is one of the the common misconceptions, I think, that are out there. Because at the end of the day, you set out with a mission, right? You were like, I actually have this huge point of view.
1:11:10 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:11:10 Emma Grede? I want to impact a ton of women. I want to create a working environment that for fifteen, twenty people is going to be really different from everything that I've experienced. And that's what you're doing.
1:11:20 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:11:20 Emma Grede? And you're making money from it.
1:11:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:22 Emma Grede? So I just, I feel like it's really important because, again, we live in a moment in the culture where it's like, everything's a unicorn. It's like, no, it's not.
1:11:29 Speaker 02 No.
1:11:29 Emma Grede? If you're getting paid and you're looking after your future and you've got a whole bunch of women whose futures you're also looking after, like, that, to me, is as successful as it can possibly get. The idea that everything needs to be massive is crazy. And it's also just like, not the truth.
1:11:44 Speaker 02 And quite frankly, I don't want your job.
1:11:46 Emma Grede? No, I don't know that. I want my job right now, honestly. I'm exhausted.
1:11:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, like, I, I so admire that. And I, I, I don't want it.
1:11:55 Emma Grede? Hmm.
1:11:56 Speaker 02 I am great where we're at.
1:11:57 Emma Grede? But how nice that you know that.
1:11:59 Speaker 02 Right?
1:11:59 Emma Grede? It's like, I don't want it. I built a company and this is the company that I want to run.
1:12:15 Emma Grede? So before we wrap, a quick reminder that Start With Yourself is available for preorder and tickets for the live shows are available now. Starting April fifteenth, we're coming to New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, DC, Boston, Atlanta, and London. Visit emigre.com for tickets and full tour details. I cannot wait.
1:12:38 Emma Grede? How has running this company changed the way you see yourself?
1:12:42 Speaker 02 Oh, it's changed everything, but it's also confirmed a lot for me. I am never the person that's going to walk into an interview and go, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened to me. I'm shocked. Never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that I
1:12:58 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:12:59 Speaker 02 I dreamt this. I knew I could do this. Like, I was well aware that I had big dreams and big goals and that I could accomplish them. And like, this is like cue the Barbie movie where she like gets the award and she's like, I deserve this and I know like, but it's true. And it would be very, you know, inauthentic to come in here and play that role. So I
1:13:20 Emma Grede? Because that was always your mindset, like you just, you knew you were going to do something and make a ton of money.
1:13:25 Speaker 02 Honestly, not even make a ton of money, but like, I wanted to, I wanted to do big things. Like, I wanted to do that and I knew I was capable of that. Because the thing I always tell, if I'm walking into a new therapist office, I always tell them, we're going to work on a lot and there's a lot of things that, you know, I'm not good at or the things I'm working on, but self-worth is not one of them. Like, I know I'm worthy of opportunity, of love, of belonging, of money. But I think what's changed me with running this business is
1:13:57 Speaker 02 when you first start and your first fire comes and you put it out, you go, how do I prevent more fires?
1:14:08 Speaker 02 But there's some fires that are not preventable. So a couple of years ago, I realized I got really burned out. I got really burned out. I launched my book, became a New York Times seller, all of that. Business was like, we were having some stuff internally that we had to figure out, just like restructuring of the business. Like, I was tired and I was not well. And I kept thinking, maybe I'm not a good boss or not on, not a good entrepreneur. If we have these fires all the time. And I realized, oh, there's some fires that you can't anticipate, or there's some things that are not going to be inside of your control. So the goal is not, how do I create a fireproof business? The goal is, how do I make sure I have fire extinguishers on hand?
1:14:47 Emma Grede? How do I get better at firefighting?
1:14:48 Speaker 02 Exactly. How do I get better at understanding that there's going to be stuff that happens? How do we make good decisions during that time? And I think that was a huge shift for me, is not, how do I prevent all fires? But instead, how do I be prepped when they inevitably come?
1:15:04 Emma Grede? Hundred percent. What type of leader are you?
1:15:06 Speaker 02 Tell me more. What do you mean?
1:15:07 Emma Grede? Like, in terms of, because I get the sense of like coming to work for you, you've created this environment that is fair and equitable. We try to, absolutely. Where people are incentivized not to like burn themselves out. That's why you're giving them all of these opportunities. Is, does that connect to the type of leader that you are in your team? Does that mean that you have like a softer, more empathetic leadership style? Like, I'm just interested how you running a profitable business and having these very clear ideas about the type of business that you want to run? Like, how those two things connect?
1:15:41 Speaker 02 One thing I'm really proud of, and I've gotten feedback from my team about this, is that I'm always the first person to ask, what do you need from me? Like, how can I help you today do your job better? And also, I always want to say, I'm not the perfect leader. Like, I'm always learning. I'm growing. I've made a million mistakes. I'll continue to make them. But I think I'm very proud of that, is I'm always going to walk into a room and be like, what do you need from me? How can I help you? My partner actually makes fun of me, because I'll be at events and stuff. Like, somebody's invited me to an event, and I'm like, what do you need? It'll happen tonight. You invited me to, you invited me and our mastermind podcast group tonight for dinner. And now that I've said it, you'll see it. But I will literally come to you and like, what do you need? Like, do you need, do you need me to bring out drinks?
1:16:17 Emma Grede? Literally nothing.
1:16:19 Speaker 02 And that's okay.
1:16:20 Emma Grede? I need you to have a good time tonight.
1:16:22 Speaker 02 But like, I, I'm an Enneagram two. Like, I'm a helper. Like, I just love that.
1:16:26 Emma Grede? You're a two?
1:16:27 Speaker 02 I'm a two. Textbook two. And I'm also a Cancer.
1:16:30 Emma Grede? So like, oh, okay. So we're getting the emotional, my daughter's a Cancer, so I know that sign inside. A nine-year-old Cancer.
1:16:35 Speaker 02 Absolutely. And I'm also not afraid to cry in front of my team. Like, I've cried in front of my team quite a bit. Like, when I've been really excited, like, I'll walk out of here and cry, like. But also, like, when things are not great, like, candidly, when Trump got elected, we literally, for the second time, we sat on a call the next day. I gave everybody the day off, because none of us were well. We're not good. And we, it was so actually cathartic to be in a group of women that was just like, okay, all right, so what are we gonna do about it?
1:17:03 Emma Grede? You sound like an extremely intuitive leader because I think somebody that understands the needs of their team without everybody having to be like, this is what we need and you anticipate those needs.
1:17:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:17:15 Emma Grede? That's like a real intuitive leader. You're, you're leading from your, from something that's happening on the inside.
1:17:20 Speaker 02 I have, I think all of us, every single woman has, like, our best gift is our intuition. I have a great intuition. I can meet somebody and in two seconds go, yep.
1:17:31 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:17:32 Speaker 02 And I think patriarchy, their best work has been disconnecting us from our own intuition. Gaslighting us, making us feel like we're crazy, making us feel like, ah, but you need, you need concrete data. There's been a million times where somebody, if somebody asked me why intuition, I think, there was this great quote that intuition is knowing without explaining how you know.
1:17:54 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:17:54 Speaker 02 And like, you can ask me why and I go, I don't know. And that doesn't make me a bad leader. It's just like, I can tell you this isn't working.
1:18:01 Emma Grede? No, it makes you a great leader if you listen to it.
1:18:03 Speaker 02 Right.
1:18:04 Emma Grede? The only times I feel like I've had poor leadership decisions is when I've tuned out.
1:18:08 Speaker 02 Literally.
1:18:09 Emma Grede? I'll be like, fuck, why not just like, I knew that.
1:18:11 Speaker 02 The biggest mistakes I've made, I could look back and go, oh, had the good impulse, didn't listen to it.
1:18:15 Emma Grede? Yeah, you're out of alignment. I want to talk to you a little bit about your legacy because you're such a young woman. No, and I mean this in a way.
1:18:23 Speaker 02 I love you just brought up the L word. I'm like, oh.
1:18:25 Emma Grede? I talk about it from a legacy point of view because you are building and you're clearly very strategic and you're very thoughtful and you're also taking care of like a big group of people, right? It's like you've got a generation of women that are following you and looking up to you and taking your courses. And so there's an element of responsibility that comes with that.
1:18:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:18:45 Emma Grede? I wonder what is important for you to protect as you grow this business?
1:18:49 Speaker 02 My peace. I just, I think.
1:18:51 Emma Grede? I love that you say something for you, by the way.
1:18:53 Speaker 02 No, but it's like, I cannot serve other people if I'm not. Great. It's just like, I can't be everything I want to be and do all the things I want to do if I am not protecting what I need to protect for me. And, you know, part of that is like, my relationship is private. That's really important to me and really important to my partner. You know, people know I'm in a relationship, but like, we don't, people don't know his name. They don't know where he works. Like, that's really important to me.
1:19:21 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:19:21 Speaker 02 That's a way I've protected my peace. Also, just like, the internet's a vicious place. And yes, we have, you know, five, six million women who are so dialed in and so supportive. And my work also pisses a lot of people off.
1:19:34 Emma Grede? Yeah, no doubt.
1:19:35 Speaker 02 And so protecting my peace, understanding of like, what feedback is actually feedback that is worth listening to, what is just like, not helpful and not from people that I actually respect.
1:19:46 Emma Grede? Are you getting better at that?
1:19:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, again, all of the cliches are true. The like, if you wouldn't accept, what is it, praise from somebody, you don't accept feedback from them. Or like, if they, if they're not going where you want to go, like, it's just not worth it.
1:19:58 Emma Grede? They're either in the arena or they're not.
1:20:00 Speaker 02 Exactly, Bernie Brown.
1:20:02 Emma Grede? When I saw, well, I mean, it's not her words, she's paraphrasing.
1:20:04 Speaker 02 I think it's FDR.
1:20:05 Emma Grede? FDR, exactly. But I literally was like, you are not in the arena. Like, that's,
1:20:09 Speaker 02 That's how I feel all the time.
1:20:10 Emma Grede? Okay. What do you hope, beyond the, the kind of core financial education, what do you hope that women take out of your work?
1:20:19 Speaker 02 None of my work is about money. Like, yeah, financial feminist, personal finance woman. This is not about money. This is about freedom. This is about helping women be the best, baddest, fullest version of themselves. So, yeah, my vessel or my channel is money, absolutely. But this actually has nothing to do with a paycheck, has nothing to do with how much money you have in the bank. It has nothing to do with the numbers. It has everything to do with the way women show up differently when they are financially well. And we have already made such an impact on this, but I've already seen it change in the 10 years I've
1:21:01 Speaker 02 been doing this work, where personal finance was this like niche thing. Now, you look at any like media site for women, there's a personal finance section. There did not used to be a personal finance section. You go to like wellness and you see, you know, physical, mental health, whatever, and you see money now.
1:21:16 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:21:17 Speaker 02 Because...
1:21:19 Speaker 02 You want to become a Pilates princess? Great, you need money. You want to donate to a cause you believe in? Great, you need money. You want to walk out and protest? You need money to be able to do that. Like, if you want to be well, you need to have money.
1:21:34 Emma Grede? Do you think the narrative is shifting? Because again, I feel for a lot of women, especially women whose work is kind of based around impact, purpose, making a difference. They've had a hard time uncoupling the idea that you can both be really like, you know, focused on doing super meaningful work and yet at the same time want to be remunerated well for it. That you can, you know, and I even talk about this in my book, Start With Yourself. But, you know, I always say, you know, it's like you can care about money a lot and care about the work you do. And the two things don't have to be, you know, mutually exclusive. Do you think that that is shifting?
1:22:17 Speaker 02 Absolutely. The fact that I can come online even and say, I want to be rich and I want women to be rich. That felt 10 years ago crazy.
1:22:27 Emma Grede? We need women to be rich.
1:22:28 Speaker 02 We need women to be rich. Like, we have an obligation at this point.
1:22:31 Emma Grede? Yeah, rich and powerful.
1:22:33 Speaker 02 Powerful, yeah. And again, I'm not interested in accumulating wealth to the point of, you know, exploiting somebody or to the point of, you know, gatekeeping. I'm just talking like, again, enough money to be able to have the decisions that you make. But that is the paradox that I think so many women feel is like, I either do mission-driven work or I make a lot of money. And those two things, you know, are they are not mutually exclusive. Like, you can do both. And it might mean going to a corporate job that you don't really like, that makes you a lot of money. And then being able to do really cool things with that money. It might be that. Or it might mean, okay, the traditional system isn't working for me anymore. So what is the business that I can start that allows me to make an impact, but also allows me to get rich?
1:23:17 Emma Grede? Totally.
1:23:18 Speaker 02 Both of those things can be true.
1:23:19 Emma Grede? Totally. No, I couldn't agree with you more. When your career, like when you think about in hindsight. What is it that you would quite like people to understand that like what's behind what you're building?
1:23:32 Speaker 02 Hmm. I think that, again, it is easy to put me in a box to be like, oh, she's a financial expert who like cares about the way her investments perform. Like, I don't give a shit. Like, yeah, this isn't about money. This is about so much bigger than that. And I also love thinking about the choices women get to make when they have more money. And that's really what drives me is thinking about how do we build a business where both we can support the women inside of it, but also so that we can continue doing the work that we do for a long time. And the goal eventually is that, like, I'm out of a job. Like, that would be ideal, right?
1:24:13 Speaker 02 Like, not just because I want to retire someday, but truly because, literally, like, there's no, there's no work to be done.
1:24:18 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:24:18 Speaker 02 Um, we're a long way from that. And so, yeah, I also, my job is, you know, not coal mining, so it's hard to come on here and be like, my job's really difficult. But there are times where we just don't treat women very well. And the irony is that we ask women to dream their big dreams and go for it because we like seeing women in positions of power and and do big things. And then the moment that woman makes a mistake, I'm talking, you know, not anything crazy.
1:24:52 Emma Grede? It's a mistake.
1:24:53 Speaker 02 Tiny little thing. We are so quick to go, I never liked her. Or, like,
1:25:00 Emma Grede? And it's always so personal.
1:25:01 Speaker 02 It's so personal.
1:25:01 Emma Grede? It's not like she was really bad at her job. It was like, she was a bitch.
1:25:04 Speaker 02 Right.
1:25:05 Emma Grede? And I, I never trusted her.
1:25:06 Speaker 02 Right. And that is what I'm hoping to actually change is like, if you want me to show up big, I will show up big. And also I'll be in the arena. Doesn't mean I'm not going to slip and fall. I'm going to slip and fall. I've done it already. I'm going to do it again. But you can't ask me to be, uh, you know, a leader, a, a innovator, if you're not going to also hold space and give me a little grace and give every single woman grace. And I'm a white woman. Like, give trans women grace. Give women a color grace. Like, you can't ask us to be the people moving causes forward and yet the same people that take the fall. Like, I think about that all the time is like, when we consider
1:25:51 Speaker 02 just the, the hate that often gets piled on women. I often think, okay, let's say her business didn't exist. Let's say you like got what you wanted. Is that a net positive for the world? The answer is no. So again, is my job hard? No. But I think that the internet again is a mean place. And we women cannot contribute to that. We cannot be the reason that a woman doesn't want to do something big because she's so scared of what another woman's going to think about her or say about her. Not even behind her back to her face. Like, we can't have a culture that continues to pit women against each other. It just does not work. And also a culture that does not allow women the same grace.
1:26:36 Speaker 02 You were talking about, you know, the male entrepreneurs who get 17 chances. We, it just, that, that can't continue in the same way that we've been thinking about it.
1:26:45 Emma Grede? I couldn't agree with you more. I really couldn't. Give me the one big goal that you have for yourself or for the business.
1:26:53 Speaker 02 It's a great question. I think my big goal, I mean, it's going to sound so general, but that continue impacting more women. Like, this, this, this work is not done. We're far from over. Like, I want Financial Feminist, both the book and the podcast, to be in the hands of every single woman who needs it. And I think every single woman does. So that's the goal.
1:27:13 Emma Grede? You think you'll be doing this when you're 50?
1:27:15 Speaker 02 I think a version of it.
1:27:16 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:27:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. And also, I hope I'm not needed. I will be, the way we're going, but like, I hope I'm not.
1:27:23 Emma Grede? You'll do it if you're needed.
1:27:24 Speaker 02 Yeah. And like, I could retire right now. Like, I am financially well enough, I could retire at 31. I could retire at 28. My work's not done. So I'm not retiring anytime soon.
1:27:36 Emma Grede? So, that right there. All right, I'm going to take you to rapid fire.
1:27:39 Speaker 02 Great.
1:27:40 Emma Grede? All right, my darling, tell me a purchase that you never feel guilty about.
1:27:45 Speaker 02 Food out. I love restaurants. It's my favorite thing.
1:27:49 Emma Grede? Me too. I just like, I'm such a foodie, it's ridiculous. What is one thing that you are surprisingly bad at?
1:27:56 Speaker 02 Oh, I can't do a forward roll.
1:28:00 Emma Grede? We're the same person. I can't do a forward run.
1:28:02 Speaker 02 Oh, really? Like gymnastics?
1:28:03 Emma Grede? Or a cartwheel.
1:28:04 Speaker 02 No, no, no. No, no. And I was like a dancer. Like I majored in thi- no, I can't do it. I don't like being upside down. I literally, I'm like shaking talking about it. I don't like it.
1:28:13 Emma Grede? Yeah, no, I had my period like every P E lesson.
1:28:16 Speaker 02 No, that's smart. No, there was a gymnastics week at school and every time, I know that's not rapid fire anymore, but every week I was like, I had, like, what am I doing?
1:28:22 Emma Grede? Facts, facts.
1:28:23 Speaker 02 P T F D, awful.
1:28:23 Emma Grede? It's totally fun. Um, texting or voice notes for you?
1:28:27 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm a voice, I'm a phone call person.
1:28:30 Emma Grede? First, we're gonna be best friends.
1:28:32 Speaker 02 Great.
1:28:32 Emma Grede? I don't even listen to voice notes when people send this to me. I think it's rude. I don't.
1:28:36 Speaker 02 No, but my team, my team now knows if they're getting a phone call, like nothing's on fire. It's just Tori wants to yap.
1:28:42 Emma Grede? Yeah.
1:28:43 Speaker 02 Like I have to process things.
1:28:44 Emma Grede? Anyone under the age of like 25, they're like, what's wrong?
1:28:47 Speaker 02 Truly.
1:28:48 Emma Grede? Like, I just want to check it.
1:28:48 Speaker 02 It's like part of our onboarding now. It's literally like Tori calls you, that's probably, everything's probably fine.
1:28:52 Emma Grede? Oh, we should make it part of my onboarding. People think they're gonna get fired. I'm like, just wanna chat. Just wanna chat. Um, what is a book that changed your life?
1:29:00 Speaker 02 Untamed by Glennon Doyle.
1:29:02 Emma Grede? It's a good one.
1:29:03 Speaker 02 She changed my life.
1:29:04 Emma Grede? She did?
1:29:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, I was lucky enough to be on her show last year. She and Effie and Amanda. Um, yeah.
1:29:09 Emma Grede? Major.
1:29:10 Speaker 02 I think it must read for every single woman.
1:29:12 Emma Grede? Thank you for that. Um, all right. I wanna know the first thing you do in the morning.
1:29:17 Speaker 02 Honestly, I don't sleep with my phone in my room, but I sleep with it in the bathroom. So I go to the bathroom and then I grab it and then I sit in front of my red light. And um, I know it's not good. I know you're not supposed to look at your phone, but uh, my red light is like 12 minutes and it can't go longer than that. So that's my like 12 minutes of doing the phone. And then I get to move on with my day.
1:29:34 Emma Grede? I mean, listen.
1:29:35 Speaker 02 I have a naked morning routine.
1:29:36 Emma Grede? You'll be, I love it. I've got a full picture now. I've got it. I know exactly how I'm gonna think about you.
1:29:41 Speaker 02 Every listener's got a full picture. Great.
1:29:44 Emma Grede? All right, the last thing you do at night?
1:29:46 Speaker 02 Journal.
1:29:47 Emma Grede? You do?
1:29:48 Speaker 02 Yep. I minimum, it's three things. If I wanna write more than that, I can. But I've been doing this for years. Um, three things I'm grateful for. And then, actually, it's only two. It's three things I'm grateful for and then at least three affirmations. If it's more than that, great. If I gotta get some stuff out, but those are the two things I do.
1:30:03 Emma Grede? I love that. Okay. And final question to you. What is something that you aspire to?
1:30:08 Speaker 02 I aspire to create and help create a world where women feel like they can unapologetically pursue wealth, unapologetically want to be rich, and where they know that they are worthy of every opportunity.
1:30:27 Emma Grede? What a beautiful aspiration. I love it. Thank you, my love.
1:30:30 Speaker 02 Thank you for having me.
1:30:36 Emma Grede? If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five star rating and share an episode you loved with a friend. You'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emma Grede is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emma Grede. Executive producer, Ashley McShan, Derek Brown, and me. Our executive producers from Odyssey, Leah Reese Dennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Legrosso. Producer KK Sublime. Stephen Key is our senior producer. Sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Peluso is our booker. Original music by Charles Black. Video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Carlos
1:31:16 Emma Grede? Delgado. Social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Bale. Special thanks to Brittany Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at The Lead Company and WME, Maura Curran, Josefina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meekle, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you can DM me at aspirewithemmagreed. Grede is spelled G R E D E. That's aspire, A S P I R E with Emma Grede. Or you can submit a question to me on my website, emmagreed.me.
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