Sizes

A peek into the life of a fit model: one of the stranger jobs in fashion. For images, details, and more head toarticlesofinterest.substack.com https://articlesofinterest.substack.com/ Learn about your ad choices: dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices https://dovetail.prx.org/ad-choices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Avery Trufelman?

  I'm generally pretty tech skeptical, but seven years ago, I witnessed something quite amazing.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Yes, so this is our place, so we're building it out right now.

• 0:09Avery Trufelman?

  This was back when I lived in the San Francisco Bay area, and I went to this white-walled, startup-y-looking tech office in a warehouse in an industrial part of town, all very cliche.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  We have an entire software team here, so we work really closely with them on creating algorithms.

• 0:25Avery Trufelman?

  But this company was working on something I could really get behind.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  That take into account your body shape.

• 0:30Avery Trufelman?

  That's Brooke McEver, Director of Product Innovation at Unspun, which, back then, in 2019, was completely rethinking pants, specifically jeans.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  What are your pain points in finding jeans?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  Uh, pain points? Uh, self-loathing? I don't know. Like, buying clothes is hard.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  But is it like, like, the butt doesn't fit? They're too long, they're too short?

• 0:56Avery Trufelman?

  Listen to that, I couldn't even narrow down what's so hard about finding jeans that fit. They simply never do.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like I often, I, I, I don't have a sense of my own size, and so I'll just grab things that I think are cute, and then they just, like, don't fit, and it's tomorrow.

• 1:11Avery Trufelman?

  I still feel this way. What size am I? In some brands, I'm a size 12. In some brands, I'm a size 6. I have even been a size 2. I have been every size in between. And on jeans, size 30 or 32 does not correlate to 30 or 32 inches. How are you supposed to understand what could possibly fit you? This was the problem that Unspun was trying to solve.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  So we're size-free.

• 1:36Avery Trufelman?

  They were making jeans without sizes.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  And so it's kind of nice, because you can go through an entire retail experience, never having to look at a small or a large, or tell somebody what your size is, or even think about it.

• 1:48Avery Trufelman?

  The way the size-free technology worked was they used a giant scanner.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  That's the scanner right there, that room.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54Avery Trufelman?

  I stripped down to my underwear.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Wish I wasn't feeling so bloated today.

• 1:57Avery Trufelman?

  And I stood completely still on a tiny platform.

• 2:06Avery Trufelman?

  And then, on the tiny platform, in my underwear, I was slowly spun around. It was like being in a bad music video, just slowly rotating. And in a minute and 19 seconds, I was completely scanned.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  And we're taking 10,000 data points of your body, basically. Wow. So every single part of you is factored into the equation.

• 2:30Avery Trufelman?

  And then Brooke informed me that my jeans, my custom-made jeans, would be sent to me. Ta-da.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's like a sense of relief that actually comes from people when they don't have to try things on.

• 2:40Avery Trufelman?

  And lo and behold, the resulting jeans were, in fact, fantastic. I still have them. I wear them all the time. They're great. They fit me perfectly, and there's no size label on them. They're just my size. It was an extremely cool technology, which, like all cool things, did not last. Not even at Unspun.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Just the other day, we scanned somebody. So, you know, it's possible. It's just at scale, who's ready?

• 3:06Avery Trufelman?

  I recently caught up with Brooke, who is still at Unspun, which is still a very radical company. They just haven't been able to focus on the size-free thing because they're busy with lots of other new technologies. Like, right now, they're focusing on these three-dimensional looms that can just weave pants right in their 3D form. It saves a lot of fabric.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  It's a new way of patterning. It's a new way of fabric development. And then it's custom? Like, those are a lot to chew on.

• 3:34Avery Trufelman?

  So sizeless sizing became less of a priority here, and elsewhere.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  So we're kind of waiting for someone to be ready and radical enough to do that.

• 3:44Avery Trufelman?

  A lot of companies aren't in a place where they can do individualized bespoke body scans, and they're very used to doing sizes a certain way. Mass-produced clothes still use the imperfect science of sizes. And this imperfect science, as Brooke explained to me back in 2019, is reliant on one central mysterious figure.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  They have a fit model.

• 4:07Avery Trufelman?

  Right.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  So they choose whoever they think is like their person, and then they design their entire collection. Around this person that was very hard to find.

• 4:15Avery Trufelman?

  This person, the elusive fit model, is the basis of the company's sizes. And this person might have measurements that are very similar to yours. They might have very, very different measurements from yours.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's proportions, how big is their torso? Sometimes their forearm can be too long.

• 4:32Avery Trufelman?

  But they will impact how a clothing brand feels. It's one of the stranger careers in fashion, and you might be able to do it. But I don't know if you'd want to. I'll tell you why after the break.

• 4:49Speaker 03

  Hey there, it's Robyn from PRX. If you're a longtime listener of Radiotopia, you may know that we had a podcast that ran from 2016 to 2020, discussing every episode of the show The West Wing. Well, I'm excited to tell you The West Wing Weekly is back. Joshua Molina, who starred on The West Wing as Will Bailey, and Rishikesh Hirway, creator and host of Song Exploder, have reunited to discuss the hit Netflix political thriller, The Diplomat. Just as they did in their original run, they're discussing each episode of the series in sequence, joined by special guests from the show and from the real world of diplomacy. Rishi and Josh will be wrapping up the first season with a special live taping at Union Chapel in London on November 14th. Subscribe now to The West Wing Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.

• 5:35Avery Trufelman?

  I know how your sunglasses are probably faring after this summer. They're probably beat up and scratched. The prescription might not be totally up to date, and maybe the hinges don't even work anymore. But you're not even thinking about it. You're like, whatever, fine. Because replacing sunglasses or glasses is a big pain in the butt. And new glasses cost a few hundred dollars. But this is where Zenni comes in. Zenni is an online eyewear shop with extremely stylish prescription glasses, sunglasses, and customizable lens options at prices that make it easy to own more than one pair. They start at under $30. And at that price, you can take a new style risk. My husband just wanted to try out some Zenni glasses, and he was like, whatever, I'll get the green ones. Lo and behold, he wears them every single day.

• 6:18Avery Trufelman?

  They have become his daily pair, and I don't think he ever would have found it without Zenni. Dropped up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with ZENNI. Go to zenni.com/podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over $65. The styles sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z E N N I dot com slash podcast. Promo code PODCAST15. I'm always looking for small, independent makers making unusual, strange, compelling clothes that I can't find anywhere else. And those are the kinds of independent makers that use Shopify.

• 7:02Avery Trufelman?

  Shopify is empowering entrepreneurs. And for the rest of us, the fans and the buyers, there's shop. At shop.com, shoppers can discover brands they love, save items for later, search across stores at once, and track every order in one spot. I like to use it as my massive wish list across many stores all over the internet. And as if you needed another reason to use shop.com, they're giving away $1 million in Shop Cash, which is their rewards currency. In this giveaway, 1,000 shoppers will each win $1,000 in Shop Cash. Think of all the cool stuff you could buy with that. From cult favorites to the world's biggest brands, score sweet deals, and check out fast, all at shop.com.

• 7:44Avery Trufelman?

  Enter to win the $1 million Shop Cash giveaway from now until November 1st. Just go to shop.com. There are so many ways to win. That's shop.com. Shopping designed around you. No purchase necessary. Restrictions apply. Official rules available at shop.com.

• 8:03Speaker 04

  I was an actress working off, off, off, off, off, off Broadway. And somebody came up to me at the end of the play and said, my friend owns a modeling agency. And I did one of those looking around me, like, who is she talking to?

• 8:15Avery Trufelman?

  Marcy Spanier had never thought of herself as a model.

• 8:18Speaker 04

  I knew it was cute, but modeling? Like, no.

• 8:21Avery Trufelman?

  She was like a size 14.

• 8:23Speaker 04

  I was like a 14, 14, 16. I looked like a piece of peach pie. I just didn't, I didn't have a square jaw, which was big in the 80s. I didn't have thick eyebrows. I didn't have big lips. And I was 5'7" on the nose. Most of the print models are 5'8" to 5'11". I was like, what is she looking at me for? And she said, she owns a plus-size modeling agency. Why not? You know? Who wants to wait tables?

• 8:47Avery Trufelman?

  Right away, Marcy was placed as a fit model.

• 8:51Speaker 04

  But I started fitting and I really enjoyed it because I was using my brain. And then I got to work with really great designers who were all getting involved in plus.

• 8:59Avery Trufelman?

  Being a fit model isn't about having a square jaw or thick eyebrows. It's not about being thin and it's definitely not about being tall. Although it is actually about being pretty, which I'll tell you more about later. But fit models can come in many heights, many weights, many ages. Because all kinds of clothing companies need fit models.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  If you're a 16W, an 18W, or a 20W, it doesn't matter.

• 9:24Avery Trufelman?

  Plus-size clothing companies need plus-size fit models. Petite clothing companies need petite fit models. Athletic brands need athletic fit models. A brand with an older demographic will want an older fit model.

• 9:34Speaker 05

  As they get older, they change size and so they just get different clients as they change size.

• 9:38Avery Trufelman?

  But it is not that anyone can be a fit model. Fit models need to have the right stuff.

• 9:46Speaker 05

  That is where a very, very small percentage is blessed with the genetic proportions.

• 9:55Avery Trufelman?

  And among that small percentage is Britt Dunlop.

• 9:58Speaker 05

  I fit as a small, so I'm a size four, size small.

• 10:02Avery Trufelman?

  Britt is slender and athletic and disarmingly pretty. But the key thing is she's got the right measurements.

• 10:09Speaker 05

  There's like 52 points of measure.

• 10:11Avery Trufelman?

  And they all have to be proportionate.

• 10:12Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm. Things like the length of your arm, the width of your shoulders. There are measurements that are just physically you can't change, that you're just born with or not.

• 10:21Avery Trufelman?

  I, for example, am not born with it. My shoulders measure 17 inches across, which is way too broad. Britt's shoulders, on the other hand, are a perfect 15 and a half inches.

• 10:33Speaker 05

  If my shoulders were 16 inches, I couldn't do tops. I mean, I could do bottoms, but I couldn't do tops.

• 10:38Avery Trufelman?

  And are there fit models who only... Only do bottoms. It is very hard to find someone who is completely, head to toe, a standard size. But Britt is.

• 10:49Speaker 05

  I am so close to an industry standard mannequin that I am almost identical to the one that you can buy from Alvinon.

• 11:01Avery Trufelman?

  Alvinon is a mannequin company.

• 11:02Speaker 05

  There's an Alvinon mannequin that is like my identical measurements.

• 11:06Avery Trufelman?

  So you might ask, okay, why don't companies just design their clothes on a mannequin?

• 11:10Speaker 05

  I can tell when I put on a garment when it hasn't been fit on a fit model. Instantly, the balance is off, the pockets are in a weird place, neckline not being big enough or doesn't stretch, doesn't fit over your head properly. Things that a human being clearly didn't put on.

• 11:26Speaker 06

  So in my book, although there was a push to fit things on the form, there was also a push to use programs like 3D. There still will always be an industry where fit models are needed.

• 11:38Avery Trufelman?

  This is technical designer Nikki Martin. She's the kind of designer who'd be working with a fit model.

• 11:43Speaker 06

  Over the course of my 20-year career in fashion, I've sold billions of dollars of goods by creating the perfect fit for big box retailers. So there's definitely a push to get away from fit models because fit time, it can get expensive. Usually an hour with agency fees, you can be around 300, 400 bucks. So it can get costly. I feel like that was bigger pre-pandemic, but what we're seeing post-pandemic is like people are calling the girls and the guys back because they're needed.

• 12:12Avery Trufelman?

  Because it all comes down to fit, right? Why do you keep reaching for the same jacket over and over again? Or go to the same brand over and over again? Or return something? Or give something away? It's often because of fit.

• 12:27Speaker 06

  If something fits you, you're going to hold on to it. You're going to wear it. You're going to go back to it repeatedly. And I feel like if people were educated on like what a great fit is, they would cut down on buying clothing that they do not need.

• 12:40Speaker 07

  How do you know when it's a bad fit? I feel like whenever I have a bad fit, I'm like, well, my body is just weird. Like, I feel like there's no way to know if like a fit is supposed to be good or not.

• 12:48Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, that's why I like to point out the different regions.

• 12:51Avery Trufelman?

  Nikki also makes content under the name Billion Dollar Fit. And one thing she does is she points out the elements of clothing that show they're badly constructed.

• 12:59Speaker 06

  So like if you have an armhole that is all the way under your arm, just like cutting in, if you're feeling seeping, that's making you uncomfortable. If you have a garment that feels like it's swinging away from your body in the wrong direction, that is a fit issue. So that's why you still need fit models, because they can sit down and say, hey, this jean is uncomfortable. I'm feeling something pressing when I sit down. If they're skilled, they can offer you great feedback.

• 13:24Avery Trufelman?

  A lot of feedback. Fit models, really good, experienced ones, don't only have the proportions of the Vitruvian man. They, over time, get extremely well-versed in clothing construction.

• 13:38Speaker 07

  The number one role I have is being an objective expert.

• 13:41Avery Trufelman?

  Zach Smith is a fit model who works with 45 to 50 companies at a time.

• 13:46Speaker 07

  There's a database of years of hearing what the problems are. And then also the discussion about how to fix them.

• 13:52Avery Trufelman?

  This is what a fitting with Zach sounds like.

• 13:55Speaker 07

  So this is the underplacket stitch line. It's like peeking by a quarter inch. So that's like a button alignment thing. So they actually need to place this over and then make sure there are tie gap right there. It goes back to, I think we call out 3/8.

• 14:09Avery Trufelman?

  I got to listen to this fitting that Zach did with a brand called Devium USA. They're based in Northern California and Zach is in LA. So he does remote fittings with them once or twice a month. And so I got to sit in this Zoom room. But I can't understand anything they're saying. It's like another language. It's so technical.

• 14:24Speaker 07

  So if it moved out a half inch, I'm small, it'd be kind of gnarly.

• 14:27Avery Trufelman?

  Think about what it would be like to do this all day.

• 14:30Speaker 07

  You're kind of standing and talking and interacting with people. And it's very socially engaging.

• 14:34Avery Trufelman?

  Like some days Zach starts at 6:00 AM to do a virtual fitting with some company on the East Coast.

• 14:39Speaker 07

  You know, I'll fit for like three hours and then I'll get in my car and I'll go somewhere and fit. And then with smaller brands, I can be like, the only time I can fit is tonight. So I'll fit at night. And so there's days where I fit for 12 hours.

• 14:51Speaker 05

  The entire time, they're asking, how does it feel? What do you think? And you're talking the entire time.

• 14:57Avery Trufelman?

  Like, if Britt Dunlop is fitting a jacket, she's trying to think of all the scenarios it could be worn in.

• 15:02Speaker 05

  I pretend to drive. I pretend that I'm on the subway. I raise my arm as if I'm holding the subway. If I can't lift my arm, we talk about why I have no lift and what we can do about that.

• 15:14Avery Trufelman?

  Fills me with so much love.

• 15:16Speaker 05

  Like, just knowing how much care goes into everything. Yeah, I often think, do people know how much that I put into this? Like, to make sure that they can comfortably drive in their jackets? Yes.

• 15:30Speaker 06

  If you have a great technical person and a great fit model.

• 15:34Avery Trufelman?

  Nikki Martin again, the technical designer.

• 15:36Speaker 06

  You're really like a Batman and Robin dynamic duo team.

• 15:40Avery Trufelman?

  And that team will get the bat signal over and over, even if it's for a design that seems simple, like, OK, another T-shirt. This company's made a million T-shirts. But.

• 15:50Speaker 06

  If it's a different fabric, then we should look at it again because a different material, it's going to affect the way that garment looks.

• 15:57Avery Trufelman?

  There should be a fitting again.

• 15:58Speaker 06

  Yes, we do need to see this again.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  It becomes a collaboration over time once you really understand how things should fit.

• 16:05Avery Trufelman?

  That's Marcy Spanier again, the former plus-size fit model. She is now an agent at State Management, and she matches plus and men's fit models with various companies.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  Do you talk to fit models? Yes, I fit for JCPenney. Yes, I fit for Kohl's. Yes, I fit for Mace because they book every week and they book for hours and hours every week.

• 16:24Avery Trufelman?

  The fit model is the baseline.

• 16:26Speaker 04

  And how things are going to grade up and grade down from this.

• 16:31Avery Trufelman?

  Grading up and grading down is how the company makes all the other sizes that are smaller or larger than the fit model. And this is why, for consistency, when a company likes a fit model, they'll hold on to them and they'll book them again and again and again.

• 16:47Speaker 04

  And when they pick their fit models, they're very loyal.

• 16:50Avery Trufelman?

  On one condition.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  It's very important that you keep your numbers.

• 16:55Avery Trufelman?

  Whatever size the model is, whatever the model's measurements may be, those measurements cannot change.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  There are certain workouts we say, don't do this, don't do that, and don't do this. Bar is terrible.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Why?

• 17:10Speaker 04

  Or in small doses, because you get very muscular. I represent men also, and some guys are very athletic. And if they're not careful, oh, man, my thigh again. I played volleyball last weekend and my thigh popped up. I'm a half inch too big in the thigh again. But you can't keep gaining and losing weight and you can't keep getting built up.

• 17:32Speaker 07

  But even my serving, if I serve too much, the lats get a little bigger. And so it's like, and lats affect your chest circumference.

• 17:37Avery Trufelman?

  And the big fear for Zach and for all fit models is asymmetry.

• 17:42Speaker 07

  Like with snowboarding, I will literally halfway through today be like, I'm gonna ride the other direction the rest of the day. I'm gonna ride switch the rest of the day purely out of symmetry because I don't want to create imbalances in my body.

• 17:54Avery Trufelman?

  And it's not just about sport and exercise. Fit models need to be aware of all the little inconsistencies in everyday life.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  Like how you stand, like your posture. Posture is a major thing with fitting. Wearing a backpack can change your posture. Wearing something too heavy on your shoulder can change how you're standing. So I have to make sure that I go to the chiropractor to stay adjusted properly. Like as a fit model, you can never really be off duty because everything you do affects yourself.

• 18:25Avery Trufelman?

  But obviously, you know, fit models are people. And honestly, they're very cool people.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  There's some people that fit as part of being an actor or being an artist or being a jewelry maker or being a mom. One of our most famous models is Lisa Howard, who has been on Broadway. She sung at the Tonys. She's one of our fit models.

• 18:47Avery Trufelman?

  So these people aren't just sitting in a room preserving their measurements. They're doing stuff.

• 18:51Speaker 04

  You're a human being. You're gonna have your period. You're gonna go away for Thanksgiving.

• 18:55Avery Trufelman?

  So it's up to the fit model to keep track of all their measurements and know when something's different.

• 19:00Speaker 05

  They trust me to know if I went to Pilates the night before and I overdid it and my arm's a little bit swollen and they say, is that too tight? I know that, no, my arm is actually a little bit big, so it's actually not too tight. Do you like take your tape measures? And like measure yourself? Yeah, I, yeah, I, yeah, I have to spot check myself. If I feel like things are fitting funny and I start to panic, I was like, oh, my God, are my measurements off? Are my measurements off? And so I'll measure myself in the changing room. I'm like, okay, no, it's not me. It's the garments. Wow. Yeah.

• 19:31Speaker 05

  I am now to the point where I, I can wake up in the morning and feel. I can just tell what my measurements are. I can really tell by just being. And people go, oh, you're so lucky because I can pull out something that I've had for 20 years. They're like, oh, well, it still fits you because all of your clothes always still fit you. But yes, the trade off is, yes, everything will still fit me. But I've had to make sure that things always fit me every single moment of my life.

• 19:58Avery Trufelman?

  And you want to know something wild? Even fit models, these select people who are so hyper aware of their measurements and dedicated to keeping them consistent and know so much about clothing, even they can hardly keep up with what size they supposedly are.

• 20:15Speaker 05

  One company will call me a small and one will call me a medium.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  The most popular busiest plus size model. Some people call her a 16, 18, and some people call her an 18, 20.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  Or one will call me a four and one will call me a six.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  Like the models' measurements never change. It's what they're calling them will change.

• 20:34Speaker 06

  Every brand has their own definition of what a size eight is. You also have a lot of vanity sizing and that's where the line of sizing is getting blurred.

• 20:44Avery Trufelman?

  And certainly you've heard of vanity sizing. It's this notion that companies will shift their sizes down to make clients feel smaller.

• 20:52Speaker 06

  I mean, if it makes you feel better, let the good times roll. But, you know, I think it's confusing the general population, if I'm being honest.

• 21:01Avery Trufelman?

  Yes, extremely. So what is the deal with vanity sizing? And how do we deal with it? After the break.

• 21:11Avery Trufelman?

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• 22:27Avery Trufelman?

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• 23:13Avery Trufelman?

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• 23:31Avery Trufelman?

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• 24:16Avery Trufelman?

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• 24:44Speaker 04

  I loved fit. I loved the fact that I was engaging with clients, that I was learning all of this technical language, and I was part of making clothing more beautiful for plus-size women.

• 24:58Avery Trufelman?

  When Marcy talks about working as a plus-size model in the 1980s, she's talking about a different world. It was the heyday of plus-size fashion.

• 25:07Speaker 04

  There was a big plus-size magazine with an editor from Bazaar.

• 25:11Avery Trufelman?

  There was a whole plus-size magazine?

• 25:13Speaker 04

  There were two or three over the years.

• 25:15Avery Trufelman?

  I actually talked about this in a different episode, about why plus sizes peaked in the 1980s and why they're so hard to find now.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  We have a lot of companies not paying attention.

• 25:24Avery Trufelman?

  I'm not going to reiterate all these points here. They're in an episode called "Plus Sizes." But this is all just to say there are huge gaps in the marketplace when it comes to size and fit.

• 25:35Speaker 06

  I'll say this. F+ is the afterthought. Petite is definitely...

• 25:40Avery Trufelman?

  The afterthought?

• 25:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:42Avery Trufelman?

  Technical designer Nikki Martin.

• 25:43Speaker 06

  Sometimes they're not even throwing it on the petite model. They're just like, "Oh, whatever this is. We'll chop it, make it shorter, and we're just gonna let the good times roll." Oh, no. Sorry to that girl.

• 25:57Avery Trufelman?

  Which is all just to say, a lot more kinds of sizes could use more attention and the skill of a good fit model. And maybe that fit model is you.

• 26:08Speaker 06

  A lot of people don't know that there is an opportunity to become a fit model. Like, plus petite is an area that I always see that is just ignored completely. I've seen plus-size people say, can I be petite and plus? Yes, that is an actual thing. But then also, you need the brands to have the demand for it.

• 26:29Avery Trufelman?

  So we should all be demanding?

• 26:30Speaker 06

  Yeah, bother these brands and tell them to use fit models instead of mannequins for everything, because you need live and in-person, real-time feedback.

• 26:39Avery Trufelman?

  So if someone's listening to this and they're like, I think I have what it takes. I think I could be a fit model. What should their next step?

• 26:44Speaker 04

  [email protected].

• 26:47Speaker 06

  All right.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  We look at everybody.

• 26:49Avery Trufelman?

  But be warned, dear listener, the job is really very difficult. I mean, I already told you some of the ways it's hard, like the technical knowledge and maintaining your measurements. But if you really want to get a sense of what it's like day-to-day, check out what's in Britt Dunlop's bag.

• 27:05Speaker 05

  This is my model, like, basics here. So I have, like, packed pretty-- this is light for me.

• 27:10Speaker 06

  This is a huge bag.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  Oh, we have two bags.

• 27:13Avery Trufelman?

  When Britt is schlepping around New York City, going from fitting to fitting, this is the kit she brings with her. And it is mostly full of bras.

• 27:22Speaker 05

  Oh, my God, you have so many bras. Yes, I have a bra for every client, pretty much.

• 27:27Avery Trufelman?

  She has to make sure that with each fitting, she's wearing that one particular bra that the brand likes, because, of course, her bra changes her measurements.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  This bra, you know, she's had a life, and she's a little bit flatter. But that's good, because I have a client that wants my bust a little bit smaller. I wear this one for that client.

• 27:43Avery Trufelman?

  And in addition to all the nude bras, Britt has to bring along a kit of clothes.

• 27:47Speaker 05

  Then you always have to have a tank top, black tank top, black t-shirt, another black tank top, and then lightweight sweater, long-sleeved t-shirt, all black.

• 27:56Avery Trufelman?

  So that if you're fitting anything, a pair of jeans, a suit jacket, an evening gown, outerwear, you have something to go with it.

• 28:04Speaker 05

  The key is, when they ask, do you-- Have fill in the blank, you just wouldn't say yes. Do you have a lightweight, long sleeve t-shirt? Like, yep. And I just go in my changing room and I get out my lightweight t-shirt and I put it on and then I come back out. They're a clothing company. Yes, but I am the mannequin. I am the living mannequin. I provide.

• 28:25Avery Trufelman?

  Including a few options for shoes.

• 28:27Speaker 05

  My black pump for I was doing suits earlier. And then we have like a nude stiletto for I was doing gowns.

• 28:35Avery Trufelman?

  So how many places are you going tomorrow?

• 28:37Speaker 05

  Six.

• 28:38Avery Trufelman?

  Six?

• 28:40Speaker 05

  Each one is between one to three hours. And then I get 15 minutes in between. It's what I get to change into my street clothes and then walk to my next location. When do you pee? I don't a lot. I have a very strong bladder.

• 28:58Avery Trufelman?

  And even while running around the city with all her kit, the fit model still has to look very good.

• 29:04Speaker 05

  I have to show up with a blowout. My nails are done and I am always bikini ready, as they say.

• 29:12Speaker 06

  It is an aesthetic based business, but it isn't.

• 29:14Avery Trufelman?

  Technical designer Nikki Martin.

• 29:16Speaker 06

  You are essentially looking for the person that fits the clothes the best and relates better back to your customer. But looks, it can factor into it. It depends. I have seen people go for the model that is quote unquote, better put together. Obviously it's also less of a factor for men. For him, it's like you could just use your bar of dial soap and roll on in. It's different.

• 29:40Avery Trufelman?

  To the point where Zach, the male fit model, could not handle when I asked him if appearance matters. Cause you're also pretty handsome. I don't know. I just wonder if this is something that you think about as part of your appeal.

• 29:52Speaker 07

  I really appreciate you saying that. It's good for my ego, but I know that it's not true.

• 29:56Avery Trufelman?

  Well, Zach, you are handsome. I just think it's tied up in this idea that menswear is not about beauty, that it's about straightforwardness and practicality and what the garment can do for you. I mean, even menswear sizes seem to be more straightforward and they're often labeled in the inches and measurements they are rather than whatever a women's size eight or 14 is supposed to mean. But make no mistake, menswear also suffers from vanity sizing.

• 30:26Speaker 07

  I have this conversation a lot about vanity sizing with men specifically, but it is confusing to find things that fit you.

• 30:33Avery Trufelman?

  Often, a men's size 32 will actually measure a 34 or 36. And so every now and then, Zach encounters an exciting new company who wants to completely get rid of vanity sizing.

• 30:46Speaker 07

  Smaller brands, the company would be like, well, you know, we want a 32, 32 pair of denim, and we want it to measure 32. And I'd be like, great. Six months down the road, the returns are through the roof.

• 30:56Avery Trufelman?

  Zach has seen it time and time again. Customers do not want a size 32 that actually measures 32 inches.

• 31:04Speaker 07

  There's actually a very valid reason. It's like pants used to be high-waisted, and it's not where we wear our pants. So if you took a pair of traditional 32 trousers that measured 32 at the normal waistline, where you're supposed to wear them, down where we wear pants now, that measurement is not 32. That is more like 33 and a half or 34. And so it's actually accurate if it measures 34. It isn't vanity sizing.

• 31:30Avery Trufelman?

  It's adjusted sizing. Size creep is normal. It changes with new styles and new ways of wearing clothes.

• 31:37Speaker 07

  Sometimes it's just the design aesthetic. I'll leave names out, but if I fit for like, we're a super cool streetwear brand. These are our 32. And like, bro, this measures like 38. And it's like, yeah, that's the look. It's the look we want. There is always design intent, and there's always fit intent, and fit is a spectrum.

• 31:54Avery Trufelman?

  Size even changes if the clothing is made of a thicker fabric.

• 31:57Speaker 07

  The fabric got thicker, and it's like, you're losing circumference. So it needs to measure 36 to fit like a 32 pant would normally fit.

• 32:05Avery Trufelman?

  What if they're stretched? The pants might be sized down. If they're stiff, they might be sized up.

• 32:10Speaker 07

  It's the truth. It's not an argument. It is the truth. If you go into a store and you grab three of the exacts, they say that they're the exact same size, and you put on all three of them, there are a ton of variances. It's just the inconsistency of the manufacturing process. And it's like, a company like Levi's, they might have made... This pair of 32, 32 pants. They made this pair in Morocco, but they made this pair in India and they made this other pair over here because they had a diversification strategy because they didn't want to make everything in the same place in case there was a war.

• 32:41Avery Trufelman?

  Sizes are nearly impossible to standardize because bodies are not standard and styles change and materials change and manufacturing changes. And over time, nutrition and lifestyle radically change.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  I'll never forget going to one of my clients and the mannequin that they used that were my measurements was from the 70s and it was a size 12. That was my exact measurement as the current size 4.

• 33:12Avery Trufelman?

  And I think this is the core insecurity that sizes tap into. They feel like an assessment, an inaccurate, ever-changing grading system where you never quite know where you stand.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  Like sizing, that's going to drive you crazy. But don't focus on that. Focus on the measurement and how the garment fits you. Like, if you can take a time to measure yourself a few key points, it's really helpful in picking out the right garments and finding your perfect fit.

• 33:39Avery Trufelman?

  Ah, but even still, to know how these clothes will fit relative to you, you must do that thing that I think we all want to avoid. The thing that makes sizing and shopping so uncomfortable, which is confronting your own body.

• 33:59Speaker 06

  Grab yourself a tape measure.

• 34:01Avery Trufelman?

  Nikki Martin made this helpful step-by-step video that showed people how to measure themselves.

• 34:05Speaker 06

  Make sure you go around the widest point of your back and you want to go around the apex of the bust.

• 34:11Avery Trufelman?

  And even for Nikki, a technical designer who thinks about bodies and fit all day long, making this measurement video was kind of difficult.

• 34:18Speaker 06

  It can be a psychological thing. Even myself, when I did the how-to video, it's like, oh, gosh, I've gained like 20 pounds. I'm not where I want to be. But I had to put that to the side to inform the world.

• 34:31Avery Trufelman?

  No matter what method, the sizing on a tag, the number on a tape measure or spinning around in your underwear on a scanner. They're all different ways of doing that thing that we do not want to do. Reckon with our aging, asymmetrical corporeal selves. To see that you're changing and you're shifting because you are, even if you're a fit model.

• 34:57Speaker 05

  I really believe in cutting the size out of clothes. Like, I've even done it in my life when I'm like, this is, for whatever reason, making me feel weird thoughts. If I cut the size out, and then I won't even remember in a month.

• 35:08Avery Trufelman?

  Because this is what fit models know and what the general public has yet to internalize.

• 35:14Speaker 05

  Numbers and sizing doesn't mean anything.

• 35:17Avery Trufelman?

  They really do not.

• 35:19Speaker 05

  Just buy what fits you, and then if you're wrapped up in what the label says, like, just cut the tag out.

• 35:30Avery Trufelman?

  Thank you so much to Josh Smith and Zach Smith, no relation, for the inspiration for this episode. And thank you also to legendary fit expert and pattern maker, Issa Billifield. Your insights were so helpful, I'm sorry I couldn't fit you in. Thanks also to Bill Ivors at State Management for helping to book Marcy and Britt, especially because Britt is running around from appointment to appointment all day and doesn't get any time to check email.

• 35:53Speaker 05

  My lovely laptop sits collecting dust.

• 35:56Avery Trufelman?

  Also, Britt did this amazing thing where she took pictures of what a fitting looks like. If you want to see what it looks like, head to articlesofinterest.substack.com.