Pod Insights Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard Alison Wood Brooks (on the science of conversation) About this episode Alison Wood Brooks (Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves) is a behavioral research scientist. Alison joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why growing up as a twin is like watching an alternate version of your own life, how we underestimate the complexity of chin wagging, and the reality that human connection is not just about transactional information exchange. Alison and Dax talk about Kant’s sparkling smart people dinner party rules, how hungry we can be to extract vulnerability from others while being hesitant to share it ourselves, and how asking more questions creates magic in one’s personal life. Alison explains research she’s done into the relationship between humor and power, how asking more questions creates magic in one’s personal life, and why saying “I’m sorry” is more powerful than “I love you.”
Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now.
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 26,592 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dax Shepard? Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.
0:05 Speaker 01 Hi.
0:05 Dax Shepard? Today, we have Dr. Alison Wood Brooks. She is a behavioral research scientist and professor at Harvard.
0:13 Speaker 01 At Harvard. That's a very fancy school.
0:16 Dax Shepard? Harvard Business School.
0:17 Speaker 01 That's right. HBS.
0:18 Dax Shepard? HBS. She has a new book out right now called Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. She is an incredibly good guest.
0:30 Speaker 01 So fun. And I do think we take for granted conversation. We think we're just gonna show up and be able to do it. I really, really like this in the context, I mean, in general, but dating, which we talk about a fair amount, and why a lot of these are not very successful.
0:48 Dax Shepard? You actually put no time into planning how you're gonna converse.
0:51 Speaker 01 There's like real tricks for conversation.
0:54 Dax Shepard? Yeah. And it's not disingenuous to use them.
0:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:57 Dax Shepard? Also, she's an identical twin.
0:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
0:59 Dax Shepard? So we had a lot of fun twin chatter.
1:01 Speaker 01 That part is very cool. And
1:03 Dax Shepard? Further imploring us to find a twin expert.
1:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, we really want that.
1:07 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:08 Speaker 01 She's one of the guests that we have that is a teacher at a fancy school and their class is like so impacted.
1:15 Dax Shepard? Yeah, people on a waitlist. Yeah, it's one of these favorite classes.
1:19 Speaker 01 Do you know, I often, I have a recurring dream.
1:22 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:22 Speaker 01 That I am not finished, like everyone's finished with their classes. It's the last semester and I forgot to like do, put my classes in correctly and now I'm behind and I'm gonna have to take all these extra classes to graduate.
1:42 Dax Shepard? Yep.
1:43 Speaker 01 And then I'm also looking at the classes and I really want this specific class, cause it's like the fun class that everyone wants to take.
1:51 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:51 Speaker 01 I have this dream a lot.
1:53 Dax Shepard? I have half of that. I don't ever have the class I'm trying to take.
1:57 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:57 Dax Shepard? I have the like, what happened? We're mid semester. Have I gone to any classes?
2:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03 Dax Shepard? There's a final. I wake up on set a lot where I'm directing something I haven't read.
2:08 Speaker 01 Right.
2:09 Dax Shepard? I'm like, oh my God. It's ill-prepared. Anxiety.
2:13 Speaker 01 But her class would be one in my dream.
2:16 Dax Shepard? You should add it. Yeah, you should incorporate it.
2:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:19 Dax Shepard? Please enjoy Alison Woodbrooks. We get support from Quince.
2:24 Speaker 01 Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself, because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.
2:44 Dax Shepard? Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high-quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. Full-on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.
3:00 Speaker 01 It's the dream. The cashmere sweater is starting at $60. Down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.
3:11 Dax Shepard? Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.
3:18 Speaker 01 It's great.
3:19 Dax Shepard? Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.
3:23 Speaker 01 Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.
3:45 Dax Shepard? Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.
4:10 Speaker 01 Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.
4:21 Dax Shepard? It really is the foundation, and I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.
4:32 Speaker 01 That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.
4:50 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
4:50 Speaker 01 That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.
4:54 Dax Shepard? Temperature was all over the map.
4:56 Speaker 01 It was a mess.
4:56 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
4:57 Speaker 01 I need a new one.
4:58 Dax Shepard? Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.
5:12 Speaker 01 Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.
5:19 Dax Shepard? Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair.
5:55 Dax Shepard? Most people who love Diet Coke will acknowledge it does seem to be a bit of an addiction.
6:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, because it's a stimulant, right?
6:02 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
6:03 Speaker 01 We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBS, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self medicating in tiny doses.
6:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah, it's their over the counter rhythm.
6:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, in addition to their real rhythm. Although Diet Pepsi is becoming more of a thing, I don't know if you guys heard about the new trend.
6:21 Speaker 02 Say it.
6:22 Speaker 01 There's a song out called Diet Pepsi and Diet Pepsi sales are skyrocketing.
6:27 Dax Shepard? Come on.
6:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's real.
6:28 Dax Shepard? I want to see the.
6:29 Speaker 02 She's a big.
6:31 Dax Shepard? I want to see a link to the.
6:32 Speaker 01 The data?
6:33 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
6:34 Speaker 01 It's real. Some people have converted from Diet Coke to Diet Pepsi.
6:38 Speaker 02 I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that like amazing. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.
6:44 Speaker 01 She was.
6:45 Speaker 02 She was so gorgeous. I would love to see her resurgence.
6:48 Speaker 01 Get back in it.
6:48 Speaker 02 Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi, she's the one bringing it back.
6:52 Speaker 01 You're right.
6:53 Speaker 02 Addison Rae.
6:54 Speaker 01 Addison Rae.
6:55 Speaker 02 Kind of a new gen, Britney Spears.
6:57 Speaker 01 Exactly.
6:57 Speaker 02 If we're being real.
6:58 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
6:58 Dax Shepard? I don't know that. Is that the case?
7:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, it is.
7:01 Dax Shepard? It's funny you'd say that because you have a reference in the book. You chose an artist and I was like, that's a young artist.
7:08 Speaker 02 Ariana Grande?
7:09 Dax Shepard? Yes, you talk about her video to describe context.
7:12 Speaker 02 Yes. Look at you with your memory. Holy, holy majesty.
7:16 Dax Shepard? And I was like, wow, you have three children. I don't know your age.
7:19 Speaker 02 I'm turning 40 next month.
7:20 Dax Shepard? Congratulations.
7:21 Speaker 02 I'm at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time.
7:25 Speaker 01 You're young.
7:27 Dax Shepard? Where are you from, Allison?
7:28 Speaker 02 I grew up in upstate New York, in the Finger Lakes area, very Rust Belt-y.
7:33 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
7:33 Speaker 02 When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place and I think the world is more on to it now.
7:42 Dax Shepard? Okay, so what's really exciting and it comes up quite often, this topic, and in fact, we are in search of a great twins expert.
7:48 Speaker 02 Oh, am I the expert?
7:50 Speaker 01 Maybe.
7:51 Speaker 02 I think I might be the expert.
7:53 Dax Shepard? I think you're too close to it to be an expert.
7:55 Speaker 02 That's a good point.
7:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you won't be as objective.
7:57 Speaker 02 A lived expert.
7:58 Dax Shepard? Sarah is your identical twin.
7:59 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:00 Dax Shepard? I don't think I ever really considered this. It's adjacent to self-awareness. We all strive to have a good deal of self-awareness, but you articulate it in the book and I wouldn't have considered this, is you also have like an external version of self-awareness where you get to watch her move through the world and try things and see how they react. That's very peculiar, isn't it?
8:19 Speaker 02 It is.
8:20 Dax Shepard? In an interesting way.
8:21 Speaker 01 Seeing if being more outspoken, like you can't say, well, it's because they look like this. All the factors are the. Same. So that is very interesting.
8:28 Speaker 02 And we all have multiple selves, but as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.
8:40 Dax Shepard? Are you mirror twins? Is one of you left-handed and one right?
8:42 Speaker 02 No.
8:43 Dax Shepard? Oh, bummer. See, that's one of the things I need to answer. How many people are like that?
8:46 Speaker 02 You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers.
8:48 Speaker 01 But you're identical.
8:49 Speaker 02 We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school.
8:53 Speaker 01 What?
8:53 Speaker 02 The AP Biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out?
8:57 Dax Shepard? Oh, wow.
8:57 Speaker 02 And they did. And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe. And they were identical. I mean, it looked like the same person.
9:04 Speaker 01 Wow.
9:04 Speaker 02 My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.
9:10 Dax Shepard? Would you feel like an internal embarrassment when she would embarrass herself?
9:14 Speaker 02 Of course. In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or your very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.
9:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you said there's like a combination of things that were helpful. One was being able to see how you seemed in public, but then also you guys had constant, unfiltered feedback.
9:44 Speaker 02 Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback, where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Like, what the hell was that? Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless. We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me.
10:06 Dax Shepard? She does.
10:07 Speaker 02 She also has three kids, two boys and a little girl.
10:09 Dax Shepard? No.
10:10 Speaker 02 Swear to God.
10:11 Dax Shepard? And is she a professor?
10:12 Speaker 02 She is not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs a nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.
10:17 Dax Shepard? I never thought of that either. You could only give so many compliments to your identical twin before.
10:21 Speaker 02 It's like a self-taste.
10:23 Dax Shepard? It would sound indulgent and narcissistic. You're like, she's beautiful. She's super smart.
10:28 Speaker 02 Beautiful, stunning. Yeah. She's a dad.
10:30 Dax Shepard? She's the smartest person I've ever met.
10:32 Speaker 01 I've never seen anyone who looks as pretty as her.
10:33 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you gotta be careful.
10:35 Speaker 02 Exactly. It's like a weird self-taste. But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.
10:41 Dax Shepard? So your hair is naturally curly?
10:43 Speaker 02 Big time.
10:44 Dax Shepard? And you chose to straighten your hair. So you were doing things to try to carve out some individual?
10:49 Speaker 02 The whole existence, my whole existence, anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I gonna be? How are we similar? How are we gonna differentiate? When are we gonna cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we gonna compete? She's gonna play the flute, I'm gonna play the oboe, but we're both gonna be in the orchestra.
11:07 Dax Shepard? Yeah. And you were a three-point shooter and she was a mid-range shooter.
11:10 Speaker 02 She's a three-point shooter.
11:11 Dax Shepard? Vice versa.
11:12 Speaker 02 I got that Brooks mid-range.
11:14 Dax Shepard? Okay, so you both played basketball. It must have been so fun when you guys came to schools in junior high and people were like, "There's twins on this team."
11:21 Speaker 02 We're not quiet, drinking violet. One of me would have already been a lot.
11:25 Dax Shepard? Yeah. There is this added layer of like, you like a boy. If he likes you, I don't know, conceivably, he'd also like... Was there anything tricky there?
11:33 Speaker 02 Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once.
11:38 Dax Shepard? What if he said four times?
11:39 Speaker 02 Wow, but you did do that. Maybe. When you're young, one year we held hands for a week and then four years later, they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it, because that would be really weird.
11:49 Dax Shepard? And are your current husbands similar?
11:51 Speaker 02 They are similar in some ways, but quite different. She's always had different tastes than me, actually, in suitors. And in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book. I was so hard on her about who she was dating. My expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high.
12:13 Dax Shepard? Did you ever feel inferior to her, or superior, or both?
12:16 Speaker 02 Both. Because it's like having a mirror, you actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at, because you have this example of someone who is actually slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain tasks. As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable, everything is trainable and learnable, and you can change so much about yourself. But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side... I could not tell them apart, our feet, our voices. I still to this day answer the phone, hello, this is Allison, because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone. There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over.
13:01 Speaker 02 And then I had my own kids. They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.
13:08 Dax Shepard? It's fascinating.
13:09 Speaker 02 It's so fascinating.
13:10 Dax Shepard? So you went to Princeton for undergrad and then you went to Wharton for graduate school. What was the undergrad degree in?
13:18 Speaker 02 Psychology was my major and I got a minor, they called a certificate there in finance. Not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision making behavioral science stuff.
13:31 Dax Shepard? Behavioral economics?
13:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:33 Speaker 01 Wait, sorry, I have one more twin thing. I know.
13:35 Dax Shepard? Oh, it's okay.
13:36 Speaker 01 We're past twins. I have to know if you have the thing that they all have where you can sort of read each other's minds.
13:43 Speaker 02 In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do of all people. Like we're constantly trying to figure out, what are they thinking about? How are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think twins get better at that with each other. This is a hypothesis. This has not been studied, but possibly they get better at it with other people as well because they just had more practice doing it, their whole development, their whole childhood. But I think that's where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds. They've spent a lot of time together. They know each other really, really well and their brains work similarly.
14:25 Speaker 01 True.
14:25 Dax Shepard? See, we got into a little bit of a chat about the validity of these telepathy tapes thing that's going around. We were using ourselves as examples because we're both quite good at predicting what the other. I'm more inclined to think it's just pattern recognition. And I also think if you A, observed your sister her whole life. So God, you've seen her react to every way. And then intuitively, you kind of know how you would react. You know, input A is going to equal this stimulus is going to equal this output. I tend to believe it's that.
14:53 Speaker 02 Totally. And what it has shown me is even though we're so Good at predicting what the other person will do. We have this tight knit, which psychologists would call shared reality. You're better at predicting what your twin's gonna do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling.
15:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:08 Speaker 02 It just shows you, even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genes, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's minds.
15:18 Speaker 01 There's still a mystery element.
15:19 Speaker 02 You can get close. The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think. You can get better at it, especially within specific relationships. But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time.
15:35 Dax Shepard? I think what's interesting and worth following up on that thought is, I actually think you probably could always predict. But you're often missing a lot of the context.
15:46 Speaker 02 Yes.
15:46 Dax Shepard? You don't know what happened. This is the first example that we get to in your book. You know your sister really well, but you don't know if when she stopped at the gas station, someone called her a whore. You know everything else you've observed, but that thing is still floating around. So I do think if you did know all the details, you would be in still the high 90s. It's just, we don't really know all the details.
16:05 Speaker 02 Exactly right.
16:06 Dax Shepard? Okay, so in graduate school, you start focusing on negotiation?
16:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, and emotions.
16:14 Dax Shepard? Yeah, why people's behaviors impacted by their feelings.
16:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:18 Dax Shepard? So what caught your attention?
16:21 Speaker 02 I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high level anxiety that requires medication or therapy. And I was like, you know what, though? Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time. And it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people. I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way, that's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych. As a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important. But what about the sort of lower grade, normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time? Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're making as they go through their day. Negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we
17:06 Speaker 02 We also looked at advice. When do you seek advice? When do you take advice?
17:10 Dax Shepard? Who do you seek it from?
17:11 Speaker 02 Who do you seek it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it? Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone.
17:17 Dax Shepard? No, I do. But remember I said I seek the advice that I think I'm going to get.
17:21 Speaker 02 Oh, right. We did talk about it. To confirm.
17:24 Dax Shepard? If I want to indulge in this bad behavior, I call a person I know who regularly indulges in that and is not going to say, you know better. And then when I actually want to change, I call Tom Hanson. Okay, so you end up at Harvard, teaching negotiation, and you start doing a lot of clinical work and experiments.
17:43 Speaker 02 Yes.
17:43 Dax Shepard? And it definitely expands out. I have a list of fun things.
17:46 Speaker 02 Negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course. The students show up, they take on these roles, and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory, and you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative. It's great. As I was teaching it, though, a couple of things occurred to me. One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people. And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more hard-driving? Does that align with my values? That's question number one. Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car, or you're going to go buy a house, or you're going to negotiate a merger, or a really big deal at work.
18:28 Speaker 02 I was like, I'm a grown-up, and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months? But you know what I do all the time? Is talk to people in conversations that on their surface should be easy. And then at moments, I'm like, oh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it should be. So my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.
18:51 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you did experiments on speed dating, parole hearings, doctor-patient interactions, negotiations, sales calls, instant messaging, face-to-face chin wags between strangers.
19:01 Speaker 02 What's that? I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin just ob, ob, ob, ob. It's a synonym for, oh.
19:07 Dax Shepard? 1930s.
19:08 Speaker 02 I got your chin wag, girl. I needed to know. That's what you do here. That's true.
19:13 Dax Shepard? You could put all of those under the umbrella of negotiating, right?
19:16 Speaker 02 Sure.
19:17 Dax Shepard? And I think the things that would be normally studied or you'd be drawn to is all the things you listed are quantifiable. Like, I want this amount, they're offering this amount, the outcome's measurable. But in a romantic relationship, you get into these gradients of leverage and control and power. Those are not easy to quantify and measure the outcome of.
19:38 Speaker 02 I remember very vividly, back when I was teaching the negotiation course, I had a student raise her hand one day and she was like, "So is this just about like solving a math problem?" Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is, because it's all these things that are quantifiable. You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love and I want to keep this private. And it just felt like we were missing a big piece.
20:21 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I wrote down, you said, "While strategic and technical skills can help people get ahead in many ways, being a successful person is about relationships, and relationships are about talking." And I guess I wondered, did you kind of feel like the previous work in communication and negotiation felt maybe a little too calculated or manipulative? Even when I have people on that'll be like, "How to talk to the right or how to talk to the left?" I'm like, the underbelly still feels like the ultimate goal is to get someone to believe the things you do, which I think fundamentally, I'm against.
20:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, and missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun together. It's like, not about just sort of transactional, "How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information?" Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information? But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn. From each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.
21:30 Dax Shepard? So you took all these conclusions and then you wove it into a class you call Talk, How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. I don't know where you got that, but what a stroke of genius that is. How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. But it became hugely popular. It's a heavily impacted class at Harvard. And you've taught a thousand students over the last four years. You were invited to be a consultant to the Celtics.
21:56 Speaker 02 Wow. Dang, girl. Mid-range jump shots now.
22:00 Dax Shepard? You found your way to the Celtics as a basketball player.
22:04 Speaker 02 It all circles back. Yeah.
22:06 Dax Shepard? Talk is a practical guide to having better conversations in a variety of settings, work, parenting, dating, trying to make connection. And so my first question is, do you think we underestimate the complexity of conversations? I think we all just are like, yeah, conversations, I know how to have them. I'm having them all day long.
22:23 Speaker 02 Chin wagging.
22:24 Dax Shepard? I might underestimate actually what an abstract and complicated thing a conversation is, just on the surface.
22:31 Speaker 02 I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half. You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult, it's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert. You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.
22:57 Dax Shepard? It also has the illusion of being innate, which it's not.
23:00 Speaker 02 Right.
23:00 Dax Shepard? It's like reading. It's this very abstract thing. I'm making a bunch of noises to transfer the thoughts I have inside of my brain internally, into your brain internally. And you're going to respond in a way that you'll transfer your thoughts. That is highly complicated.
23:14 Speaker 02 When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness. Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say, or say things that we regret, or interrupt people, or have all these little collisions, because it's not second nature. And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking, opens your eyes to how this is not natural. This is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not that great.
23:49 Dax Shepard? Right. So I guess in just thinking it's innate, you might not think that it's something that you could approach mindfully with a tactic. I like that you say people will put 20 minutes into planning their outfit to go meet someone.
24:03 Speaker 02 Everybody.
24:04 Dax Shepard? And they'll put zero thought into when I arrive, what will I talk about, what topics do I bring up? You don't give it any thought.
24:10 Speaker 02 Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.
24:23 Dax Shepard? Right. You just take for granted it'll just happen.
24:26 Speaker 02 It'll flow.
24:27 Dax Shepard? And then the dates suck.
24:28 Speaker 02 Right. Well, yes. But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived? I know people think it's contrived. Yeah. So we've asked people, there's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.
24:52 Dax Shepard? You say it's the myth of naturalness.
24:54 Speaker 02 Myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come, which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.
25:27 Dax Shepard? Well, I love that you're contrasting it with the other amounts of effort you put in. No one's thinking like, well, I'll just naturally look good. And if I don't naturally look good, it's not a fit. Or I'll naturally arrive there. None of these things are going to happen. So would you give me a little historical context for conversation? How we thought of conversation, how it's evolved? I was kind of fascinated with the power dynamic of a monarchy and how that affected things. How has our idea of a conversation evolved?
25:55 Speaker 02 We actually know very little about when humans evolved the ability to have dialogue. And talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.
26:19 Dax Shepard? Or they even do these super fascinating things. Well, yes, they'll find a necklace of fox teeth. And then they'll do the actual math of how long it would take to procure that many teeth and then string it and all the work that would be involved. And what you have to acknowledge about this necklace is that it was a group effort.
26:37 Speaker 02 Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?
26:44 Dax Shepard? You would have to be able to tell them, here's what we're making. We're gathering teeth because we're going to make this object.
26:50 Speaker 02 Here's the project.
26:51 Dax Shepard? Someone have to lay out a game plan.
26:53 Speaker 02 That's how we're trying to figure out, when did humans evolve this ability? Then you fast forward, the book starts in the 1700s, when there were all of these monarchies in Europe, whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times. And these are the topics. And here are all the compliments you have to say about me.
27:15 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
27:15 Speaker 02 Right? That was it. And then around the French Revolution and right after, in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris. And it was happening all over Europe. And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who was this famous philosopher.
27:37 Dax Shepard? Yes, we love Kant.
27:38 Speaker 02 And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Koenigsberg clock. So a very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life, when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.
27:57 Dax Shepard? He couldn't even get a professorship. Blew my mind.
28:00 Speaker 02 That's crazy.
28:00 Dax Shepard? He lived in boarding houses and he was like a sub-teacher, basically.
28:03 Speaker 02 A sub-teacher and he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known. They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom. And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning. We're going to talk about specific topics in the middle, then we're going to joke at the end. We're going to have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal.
28:46 Speaker 01 I want to go to this.
28:47 Dax Shepard? He curated the guest list, so you wouldn't have five physicians. You'd have a physician, you'd have a clergy member. So it was going to be an eclectic group. There were some grounders, like no interrupting, no monologuing.
29:00 Speaker 02 No arguing. So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other, and it should feel delightful the whole time.
29:12 Dax Shepard? Take the ideas or leave the ideas. You don't have to defeat them.
29:15 Speaker 02 Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do. And then the Industrial Revolution happened, and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status. So we need to now figure out, what are we talking about? How are we talking? What are the new rules of conversation?
29:57 Dax Shepard? Well, what you're first describing is that mixing of the class is hugely impacted by the move from rural life to city life. You live within a stone's throw of the rich person.
30:06 Speaker 02 And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past, and you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you going to say? Can you even tell who's who anymore?
30:15 Speaker 01 Right.
30:16 Speaker 02 And I love that.
30:17 Dax Shepard? The boundaries really fell apart. So you Your framing of this is to think of conversation in terms of a coordinated game, which you take from game theory. Tell me what a coordinated game is.
30:29 Speaker 02 Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time and spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing. Fast forward a bit more, in the mid 1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind, the movie.
30:56 Dax Shepard? Sure, sure. Janusz von Neumann.
30:58 Speaker 02 Yes, Morgan Stern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games, which were really simple, but at the time, they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken is a coordination game. Any choice, two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other. You both have to choose, am I gonna go right or am I gonna go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or seatos or whatever you're on.
31:27 Dax Shepard? Horses with jowls.
31:28 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non-cooperative coordination games, like the prisoner's dilemma. Do you know the prisoner's dilemma?
31:37 Dax Shepard? The Stanford Prison, no.
31:39 Speaker 02 No, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison Experiment.
31:41 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, I did it.
31:43 Dax Shepard? Wow, you're good.
31:44 Speaker 01 I've been trying to remember who did the Stanford Prison Experiment.
31:48 Dax Shepard? And I told her I don't care.
31:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I said, I'm going to commit this to memory, and I did.
31:52 Speaker 02 You did it. I thought you just had an electric shock just now.
31:55 Speaker 01 That's how it felt.
31:56 Speaker 02 That's how I reacted to the name, too. Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the shocks.
32:01 Dax Shepard? No.
32:02 Speaker 02 No?
32:02 Dax Shepard? The shock we just learned about. That was in England.
32:06 Speaker 01 That was a different guy.
32:08 Speaker 02 I thought Milgram did shocks.
32:09 Speaker 01 Or is it Milgram that did shocks?
32:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, Philip Zimbardo.
32:12 Speaker 02 Zimbardo did the Stanford Prison.
32:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:14 Speaker 02 Oh, my God.
32:15 Dax Shepard? You flipped him?
32:15 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:16 Dax Shepard? Hoisted by your own petard. You were celebrating, and I congratulate you. This is wonderful.
32:23 Speaker 02 This is a horrible conversation.
32:24 Dax Shepard? You were right. Okay, so Zimbardo, dude.
32:27 Speaker 01 Yes, Stanford Prison.
32:28 Speaker 02 Milgram is like the shock.
32:29 Speaker 01 Milgram.
32:30 Speaker 02 Okay.
32:31 Speaker 01 I'm never gonna be able to.
32:33 Speaker 02 I'm gonna quiz you at the end.
32:37 Dax Shepard? Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We get support from No Bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.
32:53 Speaker 01 That's when you really need to ground yourself.
32:55 Dax Shepard? Exactly. And that's why I keep my training routine through the holidays. It's the whole No Bull idea. There's a no bullshit training brand built around consistency, honesty, and just putting in the work. It's not about adding more pressure to an already packed schedule. It's about having the gear and the habits to move through the season your way. My personal favorite, all three of the shoes are fantastic. The Outwork, the Outwork Flex, and the Drive 2. I like the Drive 2 because it's a hybrid. And I lift, of course, but I also like to do what's called box jumps.
33:26 Speaker 01 Ah.
33:27 Dax Shepard? Right? I do a lot of jumping onto a little platform and I want a little more flexibility. And boy, do they deliver.
33:32 Speaker 01 And if you're a cardio person and you're running and you also need to be lifting.
33:37 Dax Shepard? And the style is banging. I don't know what to say. Beautiful style, very breathable, very, very comfortable, lots of support. They were built for lifting.
33:45 Speaker 01 They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines. And it's not a gift that just ends up in the back of the closet.
33:54 Dax Shepard? Stay stronger than the season. Head to nobullproject.com all holiday season to shop new deals every week. We are supported by Squarespace. So here's something I think about a lot. Most people I talk to on this show, the ones doing really interesting things, they all had a version of their work that existed before anyone else saw it. It was just theirs, notes, ideas, projects they were tinkering with. And then at some point, they made the decision to share it. That's the part that's scary, right? Going from, I'm working on something to here's what I made. Rob went through the exact same thing, building our site on Squarespace. And what made it doable was that he didn't have to become a web developer overnight. He just had to show up with the idea. Squarespace handles the rest. Beautiful templates that
34:36 Dax Shepard? actually look like you hired someone, built in SEO, so people can find you, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, all under one roof. No code, no patchwork. Of random tools. And honestly, the thing I keep coming back to is how low the barrier is. If you've got something you've been building quietly and you're ready for people to see it, Squarespace makes that leap feel a lot less traumatic. Head to Squarespace.com slash DAX for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really.
35:18 Dax Shepard? Everyone in the same matching set looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.
35:23 Speaker 01 I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.
35:43 Dax Shepard? It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.
35:53 Speaker 01 I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.
36:00 Dax Shepard? Okay, tell me more.
36:02 Speaker 01 So comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multipurpose this and look super cute.
36:13 Dax Shepard? Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.
36:22 Speaker 01 All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.
36:42 Dax Shepard? This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it? Or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?
37:04 Speaker 01 Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to see, what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.
37:20 Dax Shepard? This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.
37:40 Speaker 01 I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I haven't canceled, canceled, canceled, but then I-
37:48 Dax Shepard? You start feeling it.
37:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh, my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.
37:56 Dax Shepard? BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash DAX.
38:27 Speaker 01 Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it?
38:29 Speaker 02 Different. Forget about Zimbardo's Sanford Prison Experiment. Forget about the shocks. So the prisoner's dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about. You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice, and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. Okay, if they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer. So it seems simple that you should stay quiet. Except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.
39:04 Dax Shepard? Yeah, this is great.
39:06 Speaker 02 Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate.
39:13 Dax Shepard? Oh, interesting. You are also incentivized to cooperate.
39:17 Speaker 02 That's what makes it hard.
39:18 Dax Shepard? The biggest reward is to walk free. I'm trying to measure it in a utilitarian way. I feel like both people with a reduced sentence is still better.
39:27 Speaker 02 In theory, logically, but if you're the person, you start to get the why these games are interesting to people. Because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row, based on their prior behavior, what are you doing the last round?
39:44 Dax Shepard? Russians have a weird outcome in this game.
39:47 Speaker 02 Tell me.
39:47 Dax Shepard? I wish I could remember the source because it'll just sound like xenophobia. But yeah, one of these many books that has talked about the prison experiment, talked about how Russians asymmetrically will punish even when it costs them.
40:00 Speaker 02 These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play, how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now, fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff. And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it.
40:34 Dax Shepard? Right, you couldn't have film cameras running, although your hometown would love it. Kodak would still be thriving. Yeah, we needed a digital revolution.
40:42 Speaker 02 We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them. I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go?
41:11 Dax Shepard? I know what the answer to this is.
41:13 Speaker 02 Wait, is it a riddle?
41:13 Speaker 01 Or is it just a fun talking?
41:15 Speaker 02 It's just a coordination game. You can't talk about it. And everybody writes down their answer.
41:19 Dax Shepard? I unfortunately know too much about it.
41:21 Speaker 02 Let's pick LA.
41:22 Dax Shepard? Let's do it.
41:23 Speaker 01 Okay, yeah.
41:23 Speaker 02 So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow, somewhere in LA at noon, think in your mind where you would go.
41:33 Dax Shepard? It's not here.
41:34 Speaker 02 It can't be here.
41:35 Dax Shepard? Right.
41:36 Speaker 02 Monica, what's your answer?
41:37 Speaker 01 Kara.
41:37 Dax Shepard? Yeah, same.
41:38 Speaker 02 Oh, the bar at Kara?
41:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:43 Dax Shepard? That's exactly what I thought.
41:44 Speaker 02 Is that just because we know that we?
41:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
41:47 Dax Shepard? The New York one, a lot of people will say the Empire State Building. It's a landmark. Let's see the Brooklyn Bridge. But there is a right answer.
41:54 Speaker 02 The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station.
41:58 Speaker 01 Everyone will be arriving there.
41:59 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so there is a kind of a high probability.
42:01 Speaker 01 It's kind of a riddle.
42:03 Dax Shepard? Kind of a riddle, yeah.
42:04 Speaker 02 Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes too quickly that you think other people are gonna do.
42:10 Dax Shepard? Yeah, high probability. The first thing you think of when you think of New York, I'll go there.
42:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, or here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship. That helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little moment is like a coordination game. When you're trying to decide, what are we gonna talk about next? How are we gonna talk about it? What are they excited for me to ask? Where should we go next? Requires this level of shared reality, these focal points, and this mind reading. But it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay quiet or snitch? It's like, and now, and now, and now, and now. And you have to make those choices relentlessly.
42:51 Dax Shepard? It's almost incredible we can communicate.
42:53 Speaker 02 I agree. It is incredible. That's what linguists will tell you.
42:56 Dax Shepard? Almost everyone can relate to some social anxiety, the fear of small talk, being in an elevator. And that is all present. But in general, it goes shockingly well. It's the anomaly you hear two people screaming at each other on the sidewalk.
43:08 Speaker 02 And even when they're screaming at each other, they're taking turns. They're listening to each other. There is some information being exchanged that they may get the opportunity to rehash later.
43:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
43:17 Speaker 02 It's still amazing that we are able to do this. And when you look at actual transcripts between real people, whether they're shouting at each Other or not, you start to realize, oh, it is a train wreck. We're interrupting each other all the time. We're not actually listening. We're having half finished thoughts. We get excited about a thing and then we get excited about another thing.
43:35 Dax Shepard? You said 24% of the time your mind is wandering.
43:40 Speaker 02 And I think that's an underestimate because as a proud member of the recent legion of middle aged people who've been diagnosed with ADHD. So this was my research and it really hit home. It was very validating. So there was previous research showing that our brains are not built to focus on one thing. Our resting state is mind wandering outside of conversation. In our research, we looked at it in conversation. So we interrupted people every five minutes and we were like, were you just listening to your partner? Were you just listening to your partner? Asking them to self-report.
44:08 Dax Shepard? Which is gonna be, I think, skewed low.
44:11 Speaker 02 It is way skewed low because people know that it's not polite to say I wasn't listening. Or they're not sure if they were listening because they weren't listening.
44:17 Speaker 01 They probably thought, oh, of course I was listening, but not really. They probably couldn't repeat.
44:22 Dax Shepard? Or you think you're doing both things? Yeah, I'm listening and I'm wandering.
44:25 Speaker 02 Which is often true. So I think this 24% number, one, is staggeringly high and comforting to realize. And two, probably a huge underestimate of what's really happening.
44:35 Dax Shepard? This is why you've always saying that an AI companion might actually be wonderful because they actually won't be thinking about anything but you and they have no agenda to promote their own.
44:44 Speaker 02 I'm so curious and excited to see what happens with it, but you just put your finger on exactly the thing that as a teacher, coach, scholar of conversation, this is what's been on my mind about it, which is what makes someone a good conversationalist is relentlessly trying to focus on the other person and what the other person needs. An AI, if you're talking to a chatbot, they don't have any of their own sincere needs. They are only there to serve your needs. And what I worry about is that the more we interact with an entity like that, a non-human entity that's just there to serve you and it's so good at serving you. It's amazing at serving you.
45:17 Dax Shepard? It's a narcissist machine.
45:18 Speaker 02 Exactly. Is training us to, when we turn to an actual human, forget that the mission is the complete opposite.
45:26 Speaker 01 That's so true.
45:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I think, A, it's bad muscle memory for future conversations, but I actually don't even think it'll be. Appealing now it will be appealing to people who are objectively lonely.
45:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:38 Dax Shepard? The reward of conversation is the primate social interaction and the approval and the status and the connection and all the web of what being a social primate is. So having it within and out of an object doesn't really get you what you're after.
45:55 Speaker 01 I'm so curious to start studying who is this appealing to? Who is enjoying it and why? There will be no stakes in that conversation with an AI. There's always stakes between any real one-on-one relationship that come up.
46:09 Speaker 02 You're going on a journey through someone else's mind.
46:12 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:12 Dax Shepard? I was just telling Monica when I'm using the AI to make an image, I actually to break myself of all my habits I have when dealing with people. And when I was dealing with AI, the first time it would generate the image, I would go, great. Literally, I take the time to say this to the AI. Great job. Really good start. I think where we could do better. And I did this four or five times. I was like, oh, I don't have to do any of this. I can treat it like a fucking slave.
46:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, but then what if you lost that skill?
46:36 Dax Shepard? I know.
46:37 Speaker 01 Exactly.
46:38 Dax Shepard? It's like, how often am I doing that where then I talk to a human like that?
46:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:41 Dax Shepard? Just as obviously my muscle memory made me talk to a computer like that, which is insane if you think about it.
46:46 Speaker 01 It's lovely.
46:47 Dax Shepard? Good job, little guy.
46:48 Speaker 01 It's nice.
46:49 Dax Shepard? You're a good boy.
46:50 Speaker 01 They want to be real boys anyway. This is a ding ding ding because I was just talking about this with one of our friends. She has somebody in her life who doesn't have a lot of friends and struggles with that. And I was like, well, it would be great if there was a robot friend. This person has other outlets and is not fully reliant on her and can go to dinner with this robot. And you can program it to have the type of conversation you want. And yes, it sounds scary, but it's unfair because we're good at making friends.
47:20 Dax Shepard? Yes, I was gonna say, I'm saying that and that's a luxury because I have real people in my life and I'm not terribly lonely. And I think it'd be more appealing. My prediction for what'll make it work is they're actually going to have to build in tension.
47:32 Speaker 01 It has to care about things. That's what's going to help it simulate a real person. Those desires will never be sincere, but you can tell it to pretend to care about things.
47:42 Dax Shepard? It needs the ability to get pissed off. You and be cold to you for it to work.
47:45 Speaker 02 And complicated. And I mean, ideally not give you what you need all the time.
47:49 Dax Shepard? It's like when they talk about building the sim as a hedonic treadmill, it won't work. Like, if you have a simulation for humans to live in, just getting everything they want all day long will be a failed simulation.
47:58 Speaker 02 What I worry about is people who are already lonely probably don't love conversation. Maybe they're not as good at it, or maybe they're just more shy. And then they do find AI particularly rewarding. There are so many underserved populations or vulnerable populations, why that would be the case. It's like a little bit of a downward spiral then, where it's actually then ruining your muscle memory for how to actually engage with real people.
48:21 Dax Shepard? Okay, so you lay out an architecture in the book to improve conversation.
48:25 Speaker 02 I do.
48:25 Dax Shepard? And it's conveniently got an acronym, which is TALK. So we have topics.
48:32 Speaker 02 Did you backrenim that? What does that mean? Oh, my God, teach me. No, I am. Teach me. This is like Milgram. Does it mean you back into it? Yes.
48:41 Dax Shepard? You're out past your skis a lot, though.
48:43 Speaker 02 I'm really bald. Milgram. Yeah. But, okay, did you have TALK and then you're like, I'm gonna figure out? I honestly don't really remember the deductive versus inductive process of it. What I do remember are the things that struck me as the most helpful and surprising as we were learning them from our research. And then I was able to craft them into a very logical item framework that builds in complexity over time, focuses on the informational, transactional things we need to do in conversation, and the emotional, relational stuff. It, in a way, quite ambitious because it's trying to encapsulate the full landscape of what we're trying to do in the social world.
49:23 Dax Shepard? But TALK does stand for topics, asking, levity, kindness. So let's start with topics. You claim small talk isn't the enemy, and I have to push back on that. I talk for a living. I enjoy it so much, but having to talk about
49:38 Speaker 02 The weather.
49:39 Dax Shepard? Fucking weather.
49:39 Speaker 02 But this is the thing, you don't do small talk, you move past it immediately. That's why people like listening to you. It's why people like talking to you, is you don't get trapped in small talk world.
49:49 Dax Shepard? So tell me why it's not bad. Why should we embrace it?
49:52 Speaker 02 So many things about the way that we talk to each other. Each other are deeply ingrained social rituals. Small talk among them, you have to start at small talk. If you are meeting someone for the very first time, we have to start somewhere and it has to be a topic that anybody could talk about easily. It's this well-worn place that you're searching, ideally move away from towards something more personalized, more interesting, more exciting. The goal would be to chase the energy away from it. The problem isn't with the small talk itself, but people get trapped there too long.
50:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:23 Speaker 02 They linger and it starts to feel dutiful and awful and meaningless and shallow. And that's what everybody dreads.
50:29 Dax Shepard? And this is where we get into what we talked about, having a bit of a game plan before you end up places. In fact, you talk about the outcome of dates for a second date is kind of measurable if you go in with a bit of a game plan. So one of the techniques is switching topics frequently. You got to come with some in the holster, I guess.
50:46 Speaker 02 Actually, we saw this in the dating data. One of the killers of conversation, dating or otherwise, are long pauses. Long pauses happen when you've stayed too long on something that you don't have anything left to say.
50:58 Dax Shepard? You've really beaten a dead horse.
51:00 Speaker 02 People start repeating things they've already said about it. They start laughing uncomfortably. The pauses get longer. You gotta go somewhere else.
51:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:07 Dax Shepard? By the way, just can we take a second? Like, that's one of the worst feelings. Just even you describing it.
51:13 Speaker 02 Mirror neurons are inspiring.
51:14 Dax Shepard? And I think we all do. And that's why people are like, fuck it, I'll just be lonely.
51:17 Speaker 02 It's a little panicky feeling. Some people feel a great sense of responsibility in those moments to be the one to come up with the next thing. I think a lot of introverts are sort of like, it's not my job, but I'm hating this.
51:28 Speaker 01 Right.
51:29 Speaker 02 I'm not going to fix it, but I feel it. This is the worst. Just having this mindset shift of, before you even get to that panicky lull type of thing, move, be more assertive about going to somewhere else.
51:41 Dax Shepard? Don't be afraid to just drop an on sequitur.
51:43 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, people go right with you.
51:45 Dax Shepard? That's preferred to this long pause.
51:47 Speaker 02 Of course. I watched this amazing movie last night on the airplane.
51:51 Dax Shepard? Which one?
51:51 Speaker 02 It was called We Live in Time.
51:54 Speaker 01 That sounds familiar.
51:54 Speaker 02 It's with Florence Pugh and Andrew Barfield.
51:56 Speaker 01 Oh, that's right. Isn't it supposed to be so sad?
51:58 Speaker 02 I sobbed the whole way here.
52:01 Dax Shepard? But you know, there's been social science work on this, on an airplane. Plane.
52:04 Speaker 02 It's worse.
52:05 Dax Shepard? You have a heightened sense of vulnerability.
52:07 Speaker 02 I was alone and my husband wasn't there.
52:08 Dax Shepard? Yes, your kids were gonna miss you.
52:10 Speaker 01 Also, this movie is supposed to be so sad.
52:13 Speaker 02 It was amazing.
52:14 Dax Shepard? I loved.
52:15 Speaker 02 We're gonna get back to the movie, but the reason I raised it is because I did the thing we were talking about.
52:20 Speaker 01 I was about to say, I think you're doing it.
52:21 Speaker 02 I did the thing where you just start talking about something else.
52:25 Dax Shepard? Oh, you just tricked us.
52:26 Speaker 02 With you, you guys, it's fun.
52:28 Dax Shepard? Wow, you knew that?
52:29 Speaker 02 Monica knew.
52:30 Dax Shepard? I don't know, you've been saying you know a lot of stuff that you don't actually know. So I feel like this is continuing the pattern you've already.
52:36 Speaker 02 Welcome to my world.
52:38 Dax Shepard? I knew, I knew. Then why'd you participate?
52:40 Speaker 02 Because I thought it'd be rude not to, because I'm a good conversationalist.
52:46 Speaker 01 But if you just start talking about something else.
52:48 Dax Shepard? I feel betrayed.
52:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, be careful who you're talking to.
52:52 Dax Shepard? I feel manipulated. Now I don't trust you. And I'm scared. Now I'm gonna be dominant.
52:58 Speaker 02 Go back to the movie for real. It's so good. It's so good. I sobbed so much.
53:03 Dax Shepard? Okay, asking questions. This makes sense. I just wanna give a personal anecdote. And there's a big shout out to Scotty Johnson. So I met this boy early into LA. And everywhere we went, every single girl was in love with him. A, he was objectively cuter than all of us, that's for sure. But it was happening with guys and with girls and everyone. At first, I just chalked it up to he's magic. You can't really strive for that. You're magic or you're not. But at some point, I was like, this guy asks more questions than anyone I've ever met in my life. And I really made a mental note, oh, I wanna move through the world a lot more like Scotty. And I've gotta really up my game on asking questions. It's so powerful.
53:44 Speaker 02 Let me ask about Scotty.
53:45 Dax Shepard? Now, I know you just did that.
53:47 Speaker 02 No, I didn't even do that on purpose.
53:49 Speaker 01 That one wasn't.
53:50 Speaker 02 It was so clear. It was clear. Monica's with me. Did he ask particularly good questions or was he just asking really anything?
53:58 Dax Shepard? He had this ability to seem crazy interested in anything.
54:03 Speaker 02 And he probably was.
54:04 Dax Shepard? Yeah, by the way, and this is a AA thing, acting your way into thinking different versus thinking your way into acting different. Something could feel fraudulent to you on the surface. But you might be shocked with repetition, how genuine it gets.
54:17 Speaker 02 This is a debate that we have in my class all the time because these students are coming to this class on conversation. I'm teaching them about the types of behaviors that tend to work, and then they try them with intentionality. And of course, through the whole thing, they're thinking, but isn't this manipulative? If I do this with intentionality and knowing that I'm doing it, doesn't that make it by definition inauthentic in some way?
54:40 Dax Shepard? Right.
54:40 Speaker 02 What's unique about conversation is maybe for a fleeting second, and you think to yourself, I should ask a question now, and then you do. In that moment, you're sort of nudging yourself to do it. But everything that comes after that is sincere.
54:54 Dax Shepard? I'll also add, it's a reward center activity in that what'll shock you is people are more interesting than you thought they were. You can only discover that through asking them questions because they themselves aren't great at remembering the most exciting detail of their life to share with you at that moment, but you could inadvertently lead them. Yes, at first, you're doing it in a way that maybe is calculated, but then you're rewarded for it.
55:16 Speaker 02 And questions have that beautiful power. You get that reward almost instantly because they're going to tell you stuff. You're going to see what is interesting in their answer, and then you can keep asking more. In my class, we do an exercise called never-ending follow-ups.
55:28 Speaker 01 Ooh.
55:29 Speaker 02 It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question-asker, the other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question.
55:40 Speaker 01 Oh, wow.
55:41 Speaker 02 And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.
55:52 Dax Shepard? It's funny what a nugget of wisdom improv artist stumbled upon because you even reference it in your book, using the improv rule of yes and, not no. Should we play this game? I feel like we should.
56:05 Speaker 02 Sure, but I'm nervous.
56:05 Dax Shepard? I'll be the, do you want the switch?
56:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, so you're going to ask me a question?
56:09 Dax Shepard? Where'd you get that switcher?
56:10 Speaker 02 Oh, I got it at Sarah Henler's studio. It's vintage.
56:14 Dax Shepard? Do you go there a lot?
56:15 Speaker 02 The first time I've ever been was yesterday.
56:17 Dax Shepard? Oh, what took you so long to check it out?
56:18 Speaker 02 I guess I'm just busy. I'm busy.
56:21 Dax Shepard? What are you busy doing?
56:22 Speaker 02 I work a lot. I have a busy job.
56:25 Dax Shepard? What do you do?
56:25 Speaker 02 Have you heard of podcasts?
56:27 Dax Shepard? Oh, Jesus.
56:28 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm not supposed to. That's where it ends.
56:32 Speaker 02 I gotta go.
56:35 Dax Shepard? Fuck this. You're on your own, Toots. I don't like that sweater.
56:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, you did a good job.
56:45 Dax Shepard? Thank you.
56:46 Speaker 01 But I felt scared.
56:47 Dax Shepard? Do you want to try it?
56:48 Speaker 01 You guys, what are you doing? He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.
56:58 Dax Shepard? Well, I knew the answers to what she did for, but I didn't know that was her first time.
57:01 Speaker 01 You didn't know where I got my sweater.
57:03 Dax Shepard? And I don't know why it took you so long. I would have thought you've been there a dozen times.
57:06 Speaker 01 You learned a lot very quickly.
57:08 Speaker 02 That's true.
57:08 Dax Shepard? Yes.
57:09 Speaker 01 I guess you didn't learn that I was busy, but.
57:11 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
57:12 Speaker 01 Because you already know that. We've got to reverse it. I'm so scared. Okay, what should I ask? Well, I want to ask a serious question.
57:19 Dax Shepard? Okay.
57:19 Speaker 01 Can I?
57:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
57:20 Speaker 01 You're working on a personal project. It's been taxing and I want to know how you're doing.
57:25 Dax Shepard? I'm still in the middle of it, so I don't know how I'm doing.
57:28 Speaker 01 If you do a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most relief and one being agony, that's a weird scale.
57:36 Dax Shepard? I would say four.
57:38 Speaker 01 And are you doing anything to help balance it out?
57:40 Dax Shepard? Yeah, cutting my hair compulsively and I am exercising compulsively and I'm trying not to blow my nose, which is new.
57:48 Speaker 01 Can you tell me more about why you stopped blowing your nose?
57:52 Dax Shepard? I got convinced that I don't actually have allergies, that I've just injured my nose from blowing it so hard and then it's sending white blood cells to repair it. And then that is not that I have to then blow really hard to get out. And then I'm just caught in this endless pattern of damaging and repairing. And I feel like I just have to stop for it to end.
58:11 Speaker 01 Are you an addict?
58:13 Dax Shepard? Oh, like a motherfucker.
58:17 Speaker 01 That tracks.
58:20 Speaker 01 Okay, but I did know some of the answers.
58:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah, it's hard.
58:24 Speaker 01 We talk a lot.
58:25 Dax Shepard? Where did you get your pants?
58:26 Speaker 01 I got these at a local store near where I live.
58:29 Dax Shepard? Okay, do you notice what all the other moms are doing? And do you feel like you pick up on like, I'm not sure what pants I'm supposed to be wearing, but somehow everyone knows. How do you pay attention and figure it out?
58:40 Speaker 01 I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends. As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touchpoints with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself.
58:52 Speaker 02 Getting out of touch.
58:53 Dax Shepard? And do you have to factor in your age?
58:56 Speaker 02 Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their twenties. So I get to observe that.
59:02 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
59:02 Speaker 02 I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents. And then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads? Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.
59:22 Dax Shepard? Okay, so here's a calculated question I would ask. And I realize how I operate in thinking of this question, which is I would go if you taken too big of a swing.
59:31 Speaker 02 Oh, I try not to. So this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my twenties. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.
59:48 Dax Shepard? Okay, so you haven't like arrived at a restaurant and been like, oh, boy, I went too young with this.
59:52 Speaker 02 No, I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was gonna wear like a hot pink sweater and at the last second I was like, black, thank you. Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?
1:00:01 Dax Shepard? No, no, no. So I know that the kind of questions I ask, I want to get to a time you got embarrassed.
1:00:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:09 Dax Shepard? Because that's vulnerable.
1:00:10 Speaker 02 Well, you were doing it to me. I didn't even realize you were doing it to me. You thought this was a random conversation? Asking me. That's so fun.
1:00:18 Dax Shepard? But I want to get to the point, because I think what's very bonding in a fast pass is soon as we can get vulnerable. So if I can get to the point where you went too far.
1:00:28 Speaker 02 This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.
1:00:46 Dax Shepard? To me, it's such a fast pass. Like, oh, great, we're both now laughing at the time. I tried to wear combat boots and you tried to wear this. We've just broken through a layer and now I can kind of live here.
1:00:57 Speaker 02 I have that too, but sometimes it can backfire in a dating. I mean, even the question I asked you was a
1:01:02 Speaker 01 Immediately vulnerable. I do tend to do that even on early dates because I want to know for myself, what's going on with this person? How introspective are they? How interesting are they? And so I'm like, tell me about your trauma.
1:01:17 Speaker 02 And what do you, what do you, how do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded, they feel threatened?
1:01:22 Speaker 01 They often do it and that's lovely. But then if I then don't want to go on another date.
1:01:28 Speaker 02 Oh, now you know.
1:01:29 Speaker 01 I feel guilty because I've now put them in a position to be very vulnerable and maybe say things.
1:01:36 Speaker 02 Feel worse because you actually know them.
1:01:37 Speaker 01 Well, that's another bad thing, but I feel sort of manipulative. I put you in a position to be vulnerable. You were.
1:01:44 Dax Shepard? You trusted me and then I deserted you.
1:01:46 Speaker 01 And then I'm like, bye.
1:01:47 Speaker 02 Me with your heart and I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.
1:01:54 Dax Shepard? We're getting so off topic, but this is really interesting. I think when I have to do my own sexual inventory, as you have to do in AA, and I think about times I've been irresponsible or not. I think what I underestimated sometimes is it came very easy and natural for me to have those kind of conversations with women. And for a lot of those women, it was such a unique thing. They had only experienced with someone they were deeply in love with. And I do think it was quite misleading at times to women, which I fear in their reflection felt like manipulation or something. But it's just kind of how I am.
1:02:31 Speaker 02 You're a sharer.
1:02:32 Dax Shepard? Yes, and I think it fast forwarded. It's kind of like this thing we learned about in England where the GIs got all these English girls pregnant. Americans kiss really quick. English don't kiss for a long time. They jumped ahead 10 steps.
1:02:44 Speaker 02 This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.
1:02:47 Dax Shepard? A lot of people will associate that with a very unique kind of relationship they've only had once and it was love.
1:02:52 Speaker 02 There are people though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else. Myself included.
1:02:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah, same.
1:02:59 Speaker 02 I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John, who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency. If you could download the full contents of your brain. And give it to somebody else as a gift. We're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves? And what consequences come from it? Closeness and skipping ahead and accelerating a relationship development is one of the pros. One of the downsides is it really does make you more vulnerable to heartbreak or exploitation, essentially.
1:03:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:32 Dax Shepard? I have this in male friendships a lot, too. And this runs the risk of sounding arrogant, but I have observed it and it's real, which is a lot of guys are comfortable telling me things they generally won't tell other guys, which is an incredible privilege and it's beautiful. But I may be the only person they do that with. And so I'm kind of their best friend. And then maybe they could feel hurt because I don't have a capacity for 150 best friends.
1:03:57 Speaker 02 I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem. If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.
1:04:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I don't see the future solution being I'm less connected in a safe place to chat. It's that I think there's more options for those people to have that experience with multiple people. That's the positive future is that there's a lot more dudes that are willing to chat about that stuff. I'm gonna send them your book. Okay, so asking questions, we got that. But I do want to ask what a boomer ask is. By myself, I'm shriveling with embarrassment.
1:04:53 Speaker 02 It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about humans of all ages and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend?
1:05:03 Speaker 01 It was relaxing. How was yours?
1:05:05 Speaker 02 Let me tell you about my weekend.
1:05:07 Speaker 01 Oh, you're asking so that you can talk.
1:05:09 Dax Shepard? It can be even more grotesque and direct. You can go like, have you ever been to Tibet?
1:05:13 Speaker 01 Exactly, very specific.
1:05:16 Dax Shepard? You ever been in a fight at Franklin and Highland?
1:05:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:05:21 Dax Shepard? I'm clearly just trying.
1:05:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, so this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.
1:05:30 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:05:30 Speaker 01 People do it all the time.
1:05:32 Dax Shepard? I do it. God, I hate that I do it. Do you do it, Monty?
1:05:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think probably everyone does it in certain circumstances. I did it today on the fact check, but that's a little tricky.
1:05:42 Dax Shepard? Because it's a product.
1:05:43 Speaker 01 It's a product. And so weirdly, it's a mix of these.
1:05:46 Dax Shepard? And then our feelings get hurt.
1:05:48 Speaker 01 Well, no, no, no.
1:05:48 Dax Shepard? Navigating.
1:05:49 Speaker 01 We've come in sometimes knowing I'm going to tell this story, knowing it will lead to a real conversation. I this morning was like, oh, my hand looks different. Oh, I'm going to bring that up on the fact check.
1:05:59 Speaker 02 Your hand looks different?
1:06:02 Dax Shepard? It's a huge development.
1:06:03 Speaker 01 If you get a cut and then it's scars and then you're looking at your hand like, whose hand is this?
1:06:08 Speaker 02 You have a very lovely hand.
1:06:10 Speaker 01 Thank you very much.
1:06:10 Dax Shepard? Useful, right?
1:06:11 Speaker 01 They were better about a week ago. Thank you. But anyway, so I sat down and I said, have you ever had this experience? To start the conversation.
1:06:19 Dax Shepard? You're open to hearing I've had a similar.
1:06:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, I did want to know the answer, but also I was like, we're going to talk about this now.
1:06:25 Speaker 02 It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first.
1:06:36 Speaker 01 Yep.
1:06:36 Speaker 02 So it feels like you actually care because you do.
1:06:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:39 Speaker 02 Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand.
1:06:43 Speaker 01 Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.
1:06:46 Speaker 02 Understand.
1:06:47 Dax Shepard? You wonder what's better. Come out and tell the story you want to tell.
1:06:51 Speaker 02 So we study that exactly.
1:06:53 Dax Shepard? Oh, tell me.
1:06:53 Speaker 02 So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer and then tell a story or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better. Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral.
1:07:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:07 Speaker 02 Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand. It's better to just share it, which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope.
1:07:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:14 Speaker 02 But you don't have control over that. But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever the thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested in ask about it or share about themselves.
1:07:25 Speaker 01 Yeah, interesting.
1:07:25 Dax Shepard? What's a gotcha question?
1:07:27 Speaker 02 That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not, it's not, it's not. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing them.
1:07:37 Dax Shepard? Or leading them.
1:07:38 Speaker 02 Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now?
1:07:52 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:07:53 Speaker 02 Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it. If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole.
1:08:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:04 Speaker 02 That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.
1:08:07 Dax Shepard? Allison, you can't imagine how many people who only know me from acting will see me at the airport and they'll go, what do you got coming out? And then I go, I have a podcast and they don't have any sense that it's successful.
1:08:20 Speaker 02 They are really asking though, are they?
1:08:22 Dax Shepard? They feel so bad. The nice thing is, what they're really saying is, I like watching you.
1:08:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:08:27 Dax Shepard? I want to keep my eyes out for something you're in. But when I say I'm busy doing a podcast instead of acting.
1:08:33 Speaker 02 They get upset?
1:08:34 Dax Shepard? I think they feel really bad for me.
1:08:36 Speaker 02 No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. But it's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you.
1:08:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, just wants to know.
1:08:49 Speaker 02 It's great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.
1:08:52 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:08:55 Speaker 04 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
1:09:02 Dax Shepard? We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach.
1:09:45 Dax Shepard? From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit walden.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex.
1:10:28 Dax Shepard? It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere. Whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.
1:10:57 Dax Shepard? Okay, let's get to levity, probably my favorite part. I could see where people wouldn't prioritize levity.
1:11:03 Speaker 02 Can I give you guys a compliment?
1:11:05 Dax Shepard? Oh, please.
1:11:06 Speaker 02 Which is a levity move?
1:11:07 Speaker 01 Oh, she's doing it.
1:11:08 Speaker 02 Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously and all the way along, you want it to be fun.
1:11:26 Speaker 01 Very nice compliment.
1:11:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah, thank you.
1:11:28 Speaker 02 You accomplished the mission.
1:11:30 Speaker 01 I agree that that's the mission.
1:11:31 Speaker 02 Do you disagree that that's the mission?
1:11:33 Dax Shepard? No, I was trying to do a really thorough and honest assessment of the motive behind that.
1:11:38 Speaker 02 My motive?
1:11:39 Dax Shepard? Mine.
1:11:39 Speaker 02 Oh, let's assess why.
1:11:41 Dax Shepard? I think the thing that might be truest under all of it is it is my. Tool to both let go of power and maintain power. By being vulnerable and honest, I'm giving away my power and I'm scared. But I always have the skill set to steer the reaction if necessary. I do think it's my way of controlling how vulnerable I'll be.
1:12:06 Speaker 02 So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power.
1:12:10 Dax Shepard? Wow.
1:12:10 Speaker 02 Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group.
1:12:19 Dax Shepard? Wow.
1:12:19 Speaker 02 So I think often when we think of levity or humor, we have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes, and that's nice. When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.
1:12:41 Dax Shepard? Yeah, because when I tell you something that's very revealing, I get immediately scared, as I think most people do.
1:12:48 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:12:48 Dax Shepard? And it's broader than this room. So my mind can't help but imagine however a million people take the thing I just said. And then I can take the legs out from it if I want to at any moment.
1:12:59 Speaker 02 And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous. And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future. And people read that as a very core competency.
1:13:21 Dax Shepard? It's really interesting. I also think it enables you to take big swings because you can neutralize it. I think of Jess. Jess is very, very funny. He's also very, very provocative. So he's saying really provocative things. And if they go sideways, he's great at acknowledging they went sideways to then release the pressure.
1:13:38 Speaker 02 A lot of funny people do this. It's a recovery thing. I'm here all night. That was the joke.
1:13:42 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:13:43 Speaker 02 Right. The recovery of like, well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh, they think they're inappropriate, they don't think they're funny, you still get a boost in how people perceive your. Confidence because you were at least confident enough to try.
1:14:00 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:14:01 Speaker 02 And even that is admirable.
1:14:04 Dax Shepard? Okay, kindness, and this is where we really get into listening. I feel like this overlaps a bit with asking questions. But why does it deserve its own category?
1:14:12 Speaker 02 Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about? And what are they saying to other people? I was like, the psychologist so curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others. These are kind people and they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.
1:14:44 Dax Shepard? Could you give me an example of respectful language?
1:14:47 Speaker 02 Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are, just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling.
1:14:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:14:58 Speaker 02 Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling. Let's slap on name tags, guys.
1:15:08 Speaker 01 Right.
1:15:09 Speaker 02 Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that. As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward. In our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked.
1:15:52 Speaker 02 So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side, making a grocery list or texting your friends. What you can't fake are things like follow up questions, callbacks, which is your ding ding ding, I think.
1:16:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I love a ding ding ding.
1:16:05 Speaker 02 Can't fake a ding ding ding if you didn't hear it. The first time paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said, my understanding you right. There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs and in that moment, your friend says, I'm having an affair. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision. So before you go on to
1:16:50 Speaker 02 disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips
1:16:56 Dax Shepard? My thing was like, you're not a terrible flawed person. You're not broken. You did something a lot of people do. And we got to make sure you wake up with your family for the rest of your life. How do we get there?
1:17:06 Speaker 02 Exactly. It's so interesting, this whole topic, because I feel like we think about it a lot. I don't know if I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this, but for people who are neurodivergent, like the show everyone loved. Love on the Spectrum. I love that show. I didn't watch it. Everyone loved it. There was a lot of this, teaching how to have conversations and active listening, all these tools.
1:17:25 Dax Shepard? Eye contact.
1:17:26 Speaker 02 Yes. It's so lovely to see that in practice, but it's also kind of arrogant of neurotypical people who are watching and they're like, yeah, they don't know how to do that. Nobody's doing it all. No one's doing it right. I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.
1:17:50 Dax Shepard? Neurotypical neurodivergent is a false dichotomy in and of itself. This binary notion, we're all on this weird spectrum with varying degrees of adeptness.
1:18:01 Speaker 02 In all different vectors, in all different directions.
1:18:04 Dax Shepard? There are people who are not neurodivergent, who are very uncomfortable with eye contact. I talk to them all the time. There are any number of things that they might be struggling with. They don't go to fucking dates with topics. They're just gonna let their neurotypicalness take over.
1:18:17 Speaker 02 Correct.
1:18:18 Dax Shepard? Okay, now, when you get into a group conversation, it gets more complicated. That seems pretty obvious. But I did want to talk specifically about the status hierarchy effect of a group chat and how it changes within conversations.
1:18:31 Speaker 02 I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we realize how much harder. Even here, this whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you. Monica's so patient, she's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica, or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation, and never talk. That's different than one-on-one, where you have to go back and forth. And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows,
1:19:13 Speaker 02 the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught. And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences. As people get thrown into the mix, every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like in an organization, there's a boss, or on an army battalion, there's the leader.
1:19:48 Dax Shepard? A lot of these companies have levels.
1:19:49 Speaker 02 Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave. We tend to look at people who have high status. When they're speaking, they speak more, so you look at them. But also, when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions, because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower-status group members feel invisible. You're literally not looking at them as much. And less welcome to contribute. The revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level.
1:20:34 Speaker 02 As you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next.
1:20:39 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting.
1:20:40 Speaker 02 We start talking about fashion.
1:20:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:20:43 Speaker 02 All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax as much. I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's super cool. Yeah, I forgot to give you my gift. In a little bit.
1:20:53 Dax Shepard? If you're good.
1:20:54 Speaker 02 If you're good, if you behave yourself. But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog. Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden, low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.
1:21:25 Dax Shepard? You probably don't want to be ensnared in this, but I can't resist right now. I constantly talk about this. I think status is what we are most conscious of at all times. I think it is driving so much of everything. I think it's just baked into being a social primate. I don't think it's escapable. I think there's a lot of young people who think the solution to this is the eradication of status.
1:21:49 Speaker 02 You can, it's how our brains are built.
1:21:50 Dax Shepard? Even these movements, I see like main character energy versus supporting cas. All the movement is to get rid of status. And to me, it's just like saying, let's get rid of being bipedal and walk on all fours. We have to acknowledge it's there, accept that it's there and figure out how to navigate it best. But the notion of obliterating status.
1:22:09 Speaker 02 Eradication is not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?
1:22:25 Dax Shepard? Yeah, it sucks.
1:22:26 Speaker 02 It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double by. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status, but you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do. And status striving, right? We all want to ascend and maintain.
1:22:52 Dax Shepard? Whether we're conscious of it, it means more food and safety.
1:22:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.
1:22:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna jump to apologies. And I gotta give credit to AA. There's a few things that it forced me to do. I had to embrace the dogma. My favorite thing is the four step. I've talked about it here before, learning to actually take an inventory of how you feel and what fears are being triggered. That's been so incredible to understand. But being forced to say apologies, make amends, and then getting the experience of delivering some of those and finding out the reactions, not at all what you're afraid it'll be. I don't know how anyone else learns that unless they're in a program that demands it. As the 10 step, we have to do that daily. It's not just, oh, what you accumulated as an addict.
1:23:39 Dax Shepard? It's like daily, how is my behavior maybe impacted someone negatively? And I have an obligation to clean that up. Because if I don't clean that up, I will lose self-esteem and hate myself and I will use. So it's imperative. And through practicing this for 20 years, a few truths have emerged. One is it's never goes bad like you think it's gonna. And then what you realize immediately is like, oh, no one's getting apologized to.
1:24:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:24:02 Dax Shepard? Because the reaction to most people I make amends to or apologize to is shock.
1:24:06 Speaker 02 When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?
1:24:13 Dax Shepard? Almost unanimously, understanding, comforting, and touch that you did care. I think what people want to know is that you acknowledge that was hurtful and that you're not someone that is disposable, that they don't worry, that they've upset.
1:24:30 Speaker 02 Can I tell you who I talked to about this?
1:24:32 Dax Shepard? Please.
1:24:32 Speaker 02 Orna.
1:24:35 Speaker 01 You hang out with Orna?
1:24:37 Speaker 02 Guralnick from Couples Therapy.
1:24:39 Speaker 01 We're obsessed.
1:24:40 Speaker 02 So this chapter on apologies opens with the story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show.
1:24:45 Speaker 01 Which one?
1:24:46 Speaker 02 Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really rocky place. I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.
1:24:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:24:59 Dax Shepard? And he would bounce back to moms a lot.
1:25:01 Speaker 02 Yes, and they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine for those of you who don't go to sleep, it's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy. And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore. They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular. And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you. And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't. But it shows that you understand them and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution.
1:25:44 Speaker 02 She said, if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that without apologizing, you don't have to apologize. However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way. I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit.
1:26:06 Dax Shepard? My kids are great at it. Maybe the thing I'm most proud of my children.
1:26:10 Speaker 02 I said the same thing in the book. I wrote a little story about my oldest Kevin. It was honestly the most rewarding moment, I think, ever as a parent.
1:26:17 Dax Shepard? What did he apologize about?
1:26:19 Speaker 02 Oh, it's a doozy. He was a heck of a toddler. He was like a biter hitter. He used to headbutt. He has all these big ideas and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated. He couldn't express them.
1:26:30 Dax Shepard? Because boys are dumb.
1:26:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:26:31 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:26:33 Speaker 02 So he was having a tantrum and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose. You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay. I know I still look great. It's a little crooked. It's fine.
1:26:44 Dax Shepard? You're finally different from Sam.
1:26:46 Speaker 02 Exactly. It's a crooked nose one.
1:26:49 Dax Shepard? You're welcome. Not an apology.
1:26:51 Speaker 02 He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging for all the reasons. I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that. He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard mothering phase. Fast forward, he's now nine, turning 10. Maybe it was around when he was seven, he was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid. And the main character Greg Heffley, we were reading together and Greg Heffley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend. And Kevin paused and in that moment turned to me and he was like, Mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I say, Yeah, it wasn't great.
1:27:30 Dax Shepard? I won't ever forget it, Kevin.
1:27:32 Speaker 02 I will never forget. Thank you for the reminder. Now that I'm staring back at me in the mirror every day. He looked at my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry.
1:27:39 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:27:41 Speaker 02 It was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.
1:27:44 Dax Shepard? It's more powerful than I love you in a lot of ways.
1:27:47 Speaker 02 More powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.
1:27:50 Dax Shepard? It is the action of loving someone, not just the words.
1:27:54 Speaker 02 You're right. You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do. It is the action of love rather than just saying it.
1:28:02 Dax Shepard? I know how hard it is for me and they just did that. They fucking love me.
1:28:06 Speaker 02 They're also saying in that moment, I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future. Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with, and I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high. Let's get back there.
1:28:22 Dax Shepard? It's fucking awesome. It's so hard and I wish people could just practice. Monica would say, I've gone too far. This is one of my favorite stories. This house has been worked on for seven years, right? That's how long it took. And we lived here through lots of the construction and I had all my car chargers plugged into this one extension cord and I came out and guys were working, they were sawing and all my chargers were unplugged and I was late to bring the girls to school. There were a bunch of things had piled up and my reaction was, don't fucking unplug my shit. I fucking, there's an extension. Like I really lost it.
1:28:56 Dax Shepard? And I drop the girls off and it's going, I'm like, oh, I feel terrible about this. These guys are working their asses off. I'm an entitled, rich person. How ugly of me. I've gotta say sorry. Come back. And I'm like, guys, guys, there's like nine or 10 guys working. I just wanna say I'm really sorry about how I talked to you guys. None of you deserve that. I know you're working really hard and I'm so sorry. And what was funny is this apology went on long enough that I did recognize, oh, this is more painful than the shouting. This like male on male vulnerability is actually making them wanna throw up more than the yelling. So then I was like, I gotta make sure my apologies are serving the people I'm trying to apologize.
1:29:39 Speaker 02 But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need. Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time, the answer is yes.
1:29:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:29:48 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:29:48 Speaker 02 And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're gonna start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good. There is a tipping point where it becomes too much.
1:30:00 Speaker 01 Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing. Cause I'm hearing this all the time and nothing's changing.
1:30:06 Speaker 02 There is not a single study of live conversation that shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing. But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere.
1:30:19 Speaker 01 Right.
1:30:19 Speaker 02 Where you're not doing it well. You're saying like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology. So you need to apologize frequently, but do it well.
1:30:28 Dax Shepard? And really curb your behavior.
1:30:30 Speaker 02 Don't just promise to change, actually change.
1:30:33 Dax Shepard? I was gonna say, that's one upside of having to do a 10 step as well is that I'm sometimes on the verge of blowing it.
1:30:40 Speaker 02 Blowing sobriety, blowing relational.
1:30:42 Dax Shepard? Yelling at somebody. And as I'm about to let it fly, I go, I'll be apologizing for this. So weirdly can curb your behavior too, if you're in a real habit of doing it.
1:30:51 Speaker 02 Because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is gonna help you do the right thing to begin with. If you're able to anticipate, it's gonna be super hard for me to stonewall for a while, take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on. That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place.
1:31:09 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:31:09 Speaker 02 But we're human. We're all gonna mess up. We're all gonna yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.
1:31:14 Dax Shepard? You just hope you don't get physical when someone breaks your nose. That's about the best you can do.
1:31:18 Speaker 02 His name's Kevin, so I was like the mom from Home Alone. They're like, hi.
1:31:22 Speaker 01 I like plopped him down and ran away to look in the mirror. It's a damn shame.
1:31:26 Dax Shepard? Well, Alison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. And I'm really jealous of everyone that gets to take your class.
1:31:37 Speaker 01 We do. How fun.
1:31:38 Speaker 02 You guys, thank you so much for having me.
1:31:40 Dax Shepard? Oh, it's so fun.
1:31:42 Speaker 02 So helpful for so many people, I think.
1:31:45 Dax Shepard? I want to interview Sarah now.
1:31:46 Speaker 01 You should.
1:31:48 Dax Shepard? I want to see how different she is.
1:31:51 Speaker 01 This is very exciting.
1:31:52 Dax Shepard? I want them to both come in with the goal of tricking us.
1:31:55 Speaker 01 Are you Sarah?
1:31:56 Speaker 02 Maybe I am.
1:31:58 Dax Shepard? It'd be like a sociopath we interview. You'll never know what's what.
1:32:02 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:32:03 Speaker 02 We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught. I didn't tell anyone I had a twin. Saved it till the end of the semester. It was our day on deception and we dressed the same. And I went in and I did the normal milling with the students before. Then you go out to close the door, but Sarah came back in and she started the class and she just opened her arms and she was like, deception, what do we think? And she got the class having a discussion. They went on for like five minutes.
1:32:29 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:32:29 Speaker 02 And at some point, a student raised his hand and he goes, I think we're being deceived right now.
1:32:33 Dax Shepard? The Monica of the room.
1:32:35 Speaker 02 Monica of the room, the free cub of the room. I was like, I think we're being deceived. And so I ran in. It was like a standing ovation.
1:32:42 Dax Shepard? This is my favorite movie, the Nolan movie.
1:32:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:32:46 Dax Shepard? Prestige. I want to rewatch it.
1:32:49 Speaker 01 I want to rewatch it too.
1:32:50 Speaker 02 And it was a twin thing, wasn't it? And the end, that was the ultimate trick is it was a twin thing.
1:32:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you gotta live the routine.
1:32:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:32:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah. And you like loved one girl, but the girls were... Okay. All right. Alison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out Talk. Please come again when you write another book.
1:33:08 Speaker 02 Thank you so much, you guys. You're awesome.
1:33:13 Dax Shepard? Hi there. This is Hermium Hermium. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact check with Miss Monica. Oh, guess what? This is some hot goss.
1:33:21 Speaker 01 Okay, great.
1:33:21 Dax Shepard? Kristen was at the doctor today and there's an anesthesiologist there. And the last time she met him, right before he gave her the local, he was behind her and she was face down. And he said, welcome, welcome, welcome, as he...
1:33:36 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:33:38 Dax Shepard? Yeah. So then this time, she was like, oh, I'll bring him a sweatshirt or a T-shirt or something. So she brought him something today. And he said... I need you to know that I was eliminated in the second round of taking Monica on a date.
1:33:52 Speaker 01 Wait, what?
1:33:54 Dax Shepard? Do you remember when you guys put out like a-
1:33:56 Speaker 01 For Monica and Jess, season two?
1:33:58 Dax Shepard? I guess.
1:33:59 Speaker 01 That's the only time we put anything out, but we didn't even get that far.
1:34:03 Dax Shepard? Well, he submitted.
1:34:06 Speaker 01 Oh, my God.
1:34:07 Dax Shepard? I know, an anesthesiologist?
1:34:10 Speaker 01 They're very wealthy.
1:34:11 Dax Shepard? They are. That's supposed to be the highest starting salary in 1993 when I was in high school and looked it up.
1:34:17 Speaker 01 Oh, my goodness.
1:34:18 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:34:20 Speaker 01 I feel sorry.
1:34:21 Dax Shepard? You feel flattered and then you feel guilty that you feel flattered.
1:34:25 Speaker 01 Well, I feel guilty that someone felt eliminated. We need to have her say, we need to have her clear things up.
1:34:32 Dax Shepard? She's trying to fake an injury.
1:34:34 Speaker 01 Bring a new, a new item, like a mug and say-
1:34:38 Dax Shepard? And people will be so concerned. Her shoulder hurts. Just that's not, she doesn't have any issue. I think when they hear anesthesia-
1:34:44 Speaker 01 That's fair.
1:34:45 Dax Shepard? People will be off to the races. I find that flattering. Don't you think, do you think most people would be flattered to hear a doctor have the hots for him? We do that, right?
1:34:54 Speaker 01 I'm attracted to that.
1:34:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah, right. I'm susceptible to that.
1:34:58 Speaker 01 I feel flustered.
1:34:59 Dax Shepard? Okay, because there's this hot anesthesiologist.
1:35:02 Speaker 01 Is he married now? Because that was a while ago.
1:35:06 Dax Shepard? Married and divorced.
1:35:08 Speaker 01 An old?
1:35:09 Dax Shepard? Great. An old, yes. Fraud. And consummation.
1:35:13 Speaker 01 That's bad. Oh, that's good.
1:35:15 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yes, yes, yes. We should put out as in a prompt annulments.
1:35:21 Speaker 01 Great idea.
1:35:22 Dax Shepard? Robbie, write it down.
1:35:24 Speaker 01 Write it down.
1:35:25 Dax Shepard? Yeah, annulments.
1:35:27 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh. Maybe he's a vulnerable boy.
1:35:29 Dax Shepard? He's certainly a vulnerable boy. You wouldn't listen to this if you're a boy.
1:35:32 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:35:33 Dax Shepard? And if you were not a vulnerable boy.
1:35:34 Speaker 01 Unless you're a cookie boy.
1:35:36 Dax Shepard? Cookie boy.
1:35:36 Speaker 01 Speaking of-
1:35:37 Dax Shepard? Oh, let's talk.
1:35:39 Speaker 01 We have- Big news. I mean, we've already discussed this before. We have new merch out.
1:35:44 Dax Shepard? Yes.
1:35:45 Speaker 01 And it's fun.
1:35:46 Dax Shepard? It is. You want to hear something crazy?
1:35:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:35:48 Dax Shepard? So one of, I was, I was thanking, and I just want to continue to thank the Arm Chariots who showed up in San Francisco. It really made the whole show. Uh, when I was leaving the theater, I took pictures with folks.
1:35:58 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:35:58 Dax Shepard? And a woman had our new T-shirt on.
1:36:02 Speaker 01 Which one?
1:36:03 Dax Shepard? The crow, the mouse, and the cherries.
1:36:06 Speaker 01 Oh, as a T.
1:36:07 Dax Shepard? And I go, oh my God. I got so confused. I thought, are they already out? And she bought one? And I go, oh my God, you have one of the T-shirts. And she goes, it's, I know it's pirated. And I go, oh, that's okay. We're actually weirdly making that T-shirt now.
1:36:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:36:22 Dax Shepard? So I saw it as like, it was a really good idea because here this person went on their own and made it.
1:36:27 Speaker 01 Great.
1:36:28 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:36:28 Speaker 01 Yeah. We have all of our limited sweatshirt designs on T-shirts.
1:36:34 Dax Shepard? On T-shirts.
1:36:35 Speaker 01 Available. We have our own shop popping. We have a pop-up. We have a pop-up merch shop. That will be up until we have official merch with Wondery.
1:36:46 Dax Shepard? Wondery and Amazon.
1:36:47 Speaker 01 And that's probably going to be at the end of March-ish. So until then, we have our pop-up merch that we made into our own.
1:36:56 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:36:56 Speaker 01 Um, and so get on there. There's, I'm really proud of a lot of the designs. I think they're really cute. So we have those tees.
1:37:05 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:37:05 Speaker 01 And then we have.
1:37:06 Dax Shepard? So we have, well, the robot, welcome, welcome, welcome, Matt. And then we have Ballsack Cowboy?
1:37:11 Speaker 01 Yep. We have the, the cowboy on the mic.
1:37:15 Dax Shepard? On the microphone.
1:37:16 Speaker 01 We have Duck Duck Goose.
1:37:18 Dax Shepard? Uh-huh.
1:37:19 Speaker 01 And we have, um.
1:37:22 Dax Shepard? Crow, cherries, and mouse.
1:37:24 Speaker 01 They're on tees now. And now, and we have two new tees. We have a Cookie Boy tee.
1:37:29 Dax Shepard? Cookie Boy time.
1:37:30 Speaker 01 And a reverse back tee.
1:37:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah. That's only for the pervious Arm Chariots out there because I think you are inviting some sexual attention if you're wearing a reverse back shirt.
1:37:40 Speaker 01 You might want that.
1:37:41 Dax Shepard? I would, I'll be wearing one. Yeah.
1:37:43 Speaker 01 Yeah. It's really cool looking, um, and, and chic and sleek. And we have a sweatshirt, two sweatshirts. Same design, but one is a hoodie, one is not, and.
1:37:55 Dax Shepard? What's on the sweatshirt?
1:37:56 Speaker 01 It says A E. It has a crow on top of it and a cherry in its mouth and some cherries falling down the sleeve.
1:38:04 Dax Shepard? Yeah, very cool. I'm gonna wear that sweatsuit too.
1:38:07 Speaker 01 I know, me too. I'm really excited for the sweatsuit. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go crew neck. That's my aesthetic. I'm not gonna go hoodie, but yeah.
1:38:15 Dax Shepard? You have too much hair for a hoodie. Is that what?
1:38:17 Speaker 01 Maybe that's part of it. It gets caught up in there.
1:38:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:38:21 Speaker 01 Although apparently hoodies are the most selling item.
1:38:23 Dax Shepard? I love a hoodie, but I don't have long hair.
1:38:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
1:38:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so just to be clear, we, we have, we have brokered this deal with Amazon, begged them to let us sell our own merch for a month, which means our turnaround is really quick. So go on order. There's gonna be a little bit of delay, but we have this window to sell for a month, basically. So.
1:38:43 Speaker 01 And it's cute.
1:38:44 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:38:44 Speaker 01 So get on that. That's, that's a good fun update.
1:38:48 Dax Shepard? Yes.
1:38:48 Speaker 01 And, um.
1:38:50 Dax Shepard? Everyone's happy but Carly.
1:38:52 Speaker 01 Should we give one to my new maybe boyfriend who's married and a null?
1:38:57 Dax Shepard? Yes, for sure.
1:38:59 Speaker 01 And I wonder what, what do you think?
1:39:01 Dax Shepard? Well, we hope reverse back, yeah.
1:39:04 Speaker 01 But Cookie Boy is so fun.
1:39:06 Dax Shepard? Yeah, he had the confidence to wear a Cookie Boy shirt.
1:39:08 Speaker 01 Do you think it's, it's?
1:39:10 Dax Shepard? I wouldn't wear a Cookie Boy shirt.
1:39:11 Speaker 01 Really?
1:39:12 Dax Shepard? No, it sounds to me like I'm advertising like.
1:39:15 Speaker 01 Eating out?
1:39:16 Dax Shepard? Power bottom, like a Cake Boy.
1:39:18 Speaker 01 I would expect you to wear it.
1:39:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:39:22 Speaker 01 I would, I would have thought you would have worn it. Confident man will wear it.
1:39:26 Dax Shepard? What if, hold on a second. This isn't fair.
1:39:29 Speaker 01 I think it is.
1:39:30 Dax Shepard? What about a shirt that says Cake Boy? That's like, it feels like false advertising. Like I shouldn't wear a shirt that says Cake Boy.
1:39:36 Speaker 01 What is a Cookie Boy?
1:39:37 Dax Shepard? Ask the computer what Cake Boy.
1:39:39 Speaker 01 No, a Cookie Boy.
1:39:40 Dax Shepard? I don't know. I don't know.
1:39:43 Speaker 01 It's not.
1:39:43 Dax Shepard? Rob, am I insane?
1:39:45 Speaker 03 Uh, I don't know what Cake Boy means, but Cookie Boy, yeah, I probably wouldn't wear a Cookie Boy shirt either.
1:39:52 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:39:53 Speaker 01 Okay, well, I thought everyone said we wanted that as a shirt.
1:39:57 Dax Shepard? Yes, because I want, our, we have 70% of the people, did you find out what Cake Boy means?
1:40:02 Speaker 03 Cake Boy is someone light and fluffy, effeminate, uh, not meaty. Yeah, that's what Urban Dictionary says.
1:40:10 Speaker 01 Doesn't mean gay. That can mean baby girl.
1:40:13 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:40:14 Speaker 01 Baby girls are straight.
1:40:14 Dax Shepard? It's just always used in reference to gay guys.
1:40:16 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:40:17 Speaker 03 It's saying metrosexual.
1:40:19 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:40:21 Speaker 01 Not gay.
1:40:22 Speaker 03 Feminine male. Yeah.
1:40:23 Dax Shepard? A feminine male.
1:40:24 Speaker 01 A feminine male isn't gay necessarily. Like Timothy Chalamet is not gay. He's dating Kylie Jenner.
1:40:30 Dax Shepard? Feminine.
1:40:31 Speaker 03 Uh, this Urban Dictionary says a soft feminine heterosexual male and the quote is Jerome ain't gay. He's a motherfucking cake boy.
1:40:39 Dax Shepard? Okay, so Jerome's not gay. He's a motherfucking cake boy.
1:40:43 Speaker 01 Oh, okay. Anyway.
1:40:46 Dax Shepard? I, hold on a second. I don't wanna be, I don't want there to be any upsetness or hurt feelings about this.
1:40:52 Speaker 01 Well, there's not. You invented Cookie Boy.
1:40:55 Dax Shepard? For you, yeah.
1:40:55 Speaker 03 This says a cake boy is someone that's confused for being gay, but it's really straight.
1:41:00 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:41:01 Speaker 01 I think we've had enough.
1:41:02 Dax Shepard? Do you think in general, girls wanna be described as masculine?
1:41:06 Speaker 01 No.
1:41:07 Dax Shepard? Cause that's a one to one. Do you boys wanna be described as feminine? I think not.
1:41:11 Speaker 01 Now I'm like, should we change up the color of the shirt?
1:41:15 Speaker 03 I think it's more the phrase Cookie Boy than the color.
1:41:18 Speaker 01 No, but I'm saying if girls are gonna buy it.
1:41:21 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I think you just make it straight for girls.
1:41:22 Speaker 01 Change it to like pink. Oh.
1:41:25 Dax Shepard? Listen, don't worry.
1:41:26 Speaker 01 Just leave it. Just leave everything.
1:41:28 Dax Shepard? Listen.
1:41:29 Speaker 01 Oh my God, I hate this new collection.
1:41:31 Dax Shepard? Oh no!
1:41:33 Speaker 01 Don't buy it. Don't buy. I'm just kidding. It's fine. It's great. I'm excited to wear it. I'll wear it. Okay, anywho. I forgot what we were talking about.
1:41:42 Dax Shepard? Let's reset. Let's re-ru. So we're having a very good time.
1:41:46 Speaker 01 Merch.
1:41:47 Dax Shepard? Yeah, merch is on.
1:41:48 Speaker 01 I just did a snot.
1:41:51 Dax Shepard? All because this is, this is not.
1:41:53 Speaker 01 I've been fighting the reins so hard and here it is.
1:41:57 Dax Shepard? Anything worth unraveling over.
1:41:59 Speaker 01 I thought it was cute.
1:42:01 Dax Shepard? I think it's great.
1:42:02 Speaker 01 Okay. There's a kind of masculine shirt on there too that I. Designed for you.
1:42:09 Dax Shepard? It's okay. The vast majority of the people who order our stuff is women. I don't mind at all that we have a shirt that's skewing towards women. I'd probably even wear Cookie Boy on this show.
1:42:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:42:21 Dax Shepard? On camera, yeah.
1:42:22 Speaker 01 I think you should wear it on Kimmel.
1:42:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, do it. Be the man we are. You are, you are Cookie Boy.
1:42:33 Dax Shepard? Hold, hold on a second, man. I'm a lot of things.
1:42:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
1:42:39 Dax Shepard? I don't have to be like, I don't, I can.
1:42:42 Speaker 01 You are though. You're, you're, you're confident.
1:42:46 Dax Shepard? I, but that doesn't mean I have to declare myself a Cake Boy.
1:42:49 Speaker 01 Don't make that the same thing.
1:42:51 Dax Shepard? I think they are very similar. A Cookie Boy and a Cake Boy.
1:42:54 Speaker 01 Cookie Boy. Cookie Boy is, we invented that. That's a boy who loves cookies.
1:42:59 Dax Shepard? No, it's a girl who loves cookies. It's you. That's what a Cookie Boy is.
1:43:05 Speaker 01 I think it started with Aaron or something. I forget how this started.
1:43:09 Dax Shepard? You're the original, you're the OC, Original Cookie Boy. Okay, I'm a Lake Boy.
1:43:16 Speaker 01 That is not a cool shirt.
1:43:18 Dax Shepard? Probably not.
1:43:22 Speaker 01 I would be so attracted to a muscly, tall.
1:43:28 Dax Shepard? Anesthesiologist.
1:43:29 Speaker 01 Anesthesiologist, wearing a Cookie Boy shirt. That boy is confident and I like it.
1:43:35 Dax Shepard? Look, I wear pink and stuff with a lot of confidence. I'm trying to think what boy, yeah. Anywho.
1:43:40 Speaker 01 You wore that Gucci. That's.
1:43:43 Dax Shepard? That's wild. Yeah.
1:43:44 Speaker 01 Flamboyant.
1:43:45 Dax Shepard? It's flamboyant, for sure. Absolutely. It's totally flamboyant. And my pink is very feminine.
1:43:51 Speaker 01 Yeah. And it's funny. You like that mixed message.
1:43:54 Dax Shepard? But would I wear a shirt that says bo- bottom? I hope, don't dismiss me so quickly.
1:44:01 Speaker 01 I'm not dismissing you. I'm just telling you that's not what Cookie Boy means.
1:44:05 Dax Shepard? I'm, I don't know that anyone knows what Cookie Boy means.
1:44:09 Speaker 01 Including us.
1:44:10 Dax Shepard? Including us, most importantly, us. And so I think a lot of people are gonna be wondering what that person's declaring about themselves.
1:44:19 Speaker 01 And you don't think that about reverse back, which is interesting because that reverse back could easily be
1:44:26 Dax Shepard? Gay?
1:44:27 Speaker 01 Anal, yeah.
1:44:29 Dax Shepard? I hope, you know?
1:44:34 Dax Shepard? I think it's just its proximity to Cake Boy.
1:44:36 Speaker 01 Alright.
1:44:37 Dax Shepard? And Cake Boy's just a very known saying.
1:44:39 Speaker 01 I, okay.
1:44:39 Dax Shepard? That you, I know you didn't know.
1:44:41 Speaker 01 I didn't know it.
1:44:41 Speaker 03 I didn't know it either.
1:44:42 Dax Shepard? Rob didn't know it either, but the internet knew it.
1:44:44 Speaker 01 I think the millennials don't know it.
1:44:46 Dax Shepard? They don't know Cake Boy?
1:44:47 Speaker 01 I guess Gen X will probably not be, Gen X men will probably not be buying it. And boomers.
1:44:55 Dax Shepard? Unless, again, like, if I were a bottom, I would totally wear a shirt that said bottom or power bottom or, cuz that's what I am. I can't wear a shirt that says queer on it.
1:45:07 Speaker 01 No.
1:45:08 Dax Shepard? It would be wrong of me. I'm not queer and I can't claim that.
1:45:12 Speaker 01 Correct.
1:45:13 Dax Shepard? And now we're just, we're on this continuum. I can't wear a shirt that says queer. I can't wear a shirt that says bottom. I shouldn't wear a shirt that says Cake Boy.
1:45:21 Speaker 01 I think you could, now that we know the definition, it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean you're declaring that you're gay when you're not and being a hypocrite. And the other one, what was after queer? Bottom. You could, and that would be interesting for people.
1:45:37 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:45:38 Speaker 01 Cuz maybe you are a bottom, even in your heterosexual sex.
1:45:43 Dax Shepard? Meaning Kristen pegs me.
1:45:45 Speaker 01 Or you're on your back and she's on top.
1:45:49 Dax Shepard? I don't think that would constitute a bottom.
1:45:51 Speaker 01 I, I mean, look. Definitions.
1:45:55 Dax Shepard? Because the top is often on bottom and the bottom's on top.
1:46:00 Speaker 01 The top is.
1:46:00 Dax Shepard? Riding.
1:46:02 Speaker 03 Bottoms usually receive penetration.
1:46:04 Speaker 01 Right, right. I know that in the homosexual community.
1:46:11 Dax Shepard? Yeah, they can receive that penetration on top or bottom.
1:46:14 Speaker 01 You're still.
1:46:15 Dax Shepard? So I'm saying I can't really be a bottom in Kristen and I's relationship, whether I'm in time and space on top or bottom. It would have to involve some penetration.
1:46:24 Speaker 01 He's technically on top, you're saying.
1:46:26 Dax Shepard? Yes.
1:46:27 Speaker 01 Physically in.
1:46:28 Dax Shepard? And the top's on bottom.
1:46:30 Speaker 01 But he is a bottom because he's getting penetrated.
1:46:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah. So we could do a shirt.
1:46:35 Speaker 01 We all.
1:46:36 Dax Shepard? That explains all this because maybe a lot of people are confused.
1:46:39 Speaker 01 No, thanks.
1:46:42 Speaker 01 Um, okay, now.
1:46:45 Dax Shepard? We could call it top bottom and it's a bottom on top.
1:46:48 Speaker 01 Well, our, okay, the, look, not to make this even more complicated, but the, the masculine shirt is cherry on top.
1:46:55 Speaker 03 Which kind of looks like a butt.
1:46:56 Speaker 01 So it, that also could be seen as sexual.
1:47:00 Dax Shepard? Cherry on top sounds good sexually, though.
1:47:09 Speaker 01 Change it to cherry on bottom.
1:47:12 Speaker 03 There's also a cowboy riding a penis on one of them.
1:47:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:47:16 Dax Shepard? That's straight as hell. A cowboy riding an enormous.
1:47:22 Speaker 01 Anyone who wants to, oh, I see. You're making a joke.
1:47:26 Dax Shepard? I'm making a joke.
1:47:27 Speaker 01 Oh, wow.
1:47:28 Dax Shepard? I'm pointing out the hypocrisy.
1:47:29 Speaker 01 I see.
1:47:30 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think people who are straight don't want to declare that they're gay. And I think gay people don't want to declare they're straight. And I don't think men who identify as men want to declare they're women.
1:47:39 Speaker 01 I don't think anyone needs to declare anything. It's a cutesy shirt with a little mouse on it.
1:47:45 Dax Shepard? Yes, yes, yes. It is. It's an adorable shirt. I really like it.
1:47:48 Speaker 01 I think the deeper problem is we've decided that Cookie Boy means something that it doesn't.
1:47:54 Dax Shepard? Again, I blame Cake Boy.
1:47:56 Speaker 01 Right. I mean, I don't, I don't know what to say. A cookie boy has nothing to do with sexual appetites.
1:48:04 Dax Shepard? Well, let me ask you this. This is.
1:48:06 Speaker 01 It has to do with loving cookies.
1:48:08 Dax Shepard? Right. So what if I made shirts that said, Tim boy?
1:48:11 Speaker 01 Tim boy.
1:48:12 Dax Shepard? What do you think of? Be honest.
1:48:16 Speaker 01 A man named Tim?
1:48:17 Dax Shepard? Oh, okay.
1:48:18 Speaker 01 What, what does it mean?
1:48:20 Dax Shepard? I would think tomboy.
1:48:22 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:48:23 Dax Shepard? I think, oh, it's some other now version of tomboy, but now we're saying timboy.
1:48:27 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I'm not thinking that. That's a Gen X.
1:48:31 Dax Shepard? Okay, okay.
1:48:33 Speaker 01 Gen X is really upset about words. I think, I think millennials aren't thinking like that. It's been Gen, Gen Z and COVID, COVID Gen, they're definitely not thinking about it.
1:48:46 Dax Shepard? Do they have their own acronym now?
1:48:48 Speaker 01 I think they do.
1:48:49 Dax Shepard? Gen C?
1:48:50 Speaker 01 I heard that once, but I think it's called maybe Gen Alpha or something.
1:48:54 Dax Shepard? Oh, yeah.
1:48:55 Speaker 01 Something like that.
1:48:56 Dax Shepard? Uh, also my, my beef with gens now.
1:48:59 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
1:48:59 Dax Shepard? I may have already heard this.
1:49:01 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:49:01 Dax Shepard? It used to be like Gen X covers from nineteen sixty-eight to nineteen eighty-three or something. It's like this twenty year window, virtually.
1:49:09 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
1:49:10 Dax Shepard? And there's been seven gens since Gen X. It's like you entitled, all you entitled millennials wanted your own generation every four years. I don't even know what I'm saying.
1:49:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:23 Dax Shepard? But, um, yeah, it's this increased uniqueness where they need their own gen. Every year they were born.
1:49:28 Speaker 01 I know, but I actually think theirs makes more sense because millennials have such, yeah, we have.
1:49:34 Dax Shepard? That's a good argument.
1:49:35 Speaker 01 My brother's in my gen, that we are not in the same, we shouldn't be in the same gen.
1:49:40 Dax Shepard? You don't think so?
1:49:42 Speaker 01 No, he grew up with internet and phones and stuff. I got one in college or late high school. You know, it's just different.
1:49:52 Dax Shepard? Maybe, um, maybe there's legitimate reason for.
1:49:56 Speaker 01 Breaking it up more.
1:49:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah, because every two years the world's completely different.
1:50:00 Speaker 01 I think so.
1:50:01 Dax Shepard? All right. Well, I'm learning a lot in this episode.
1:50:04 Speaker 01 Well, I guess I sort of have an update here, sort of.
1:50:07 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:50:07 Speaker 01 Um.
1:50:07 Dax Shepard? This is the matchmaker?
1:50:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I think I dropped, I dropped an album, uh, that the matchmaker entered my life again.
1:50:17 Dax Shepard? With an option that you didn't make you feel sad about.
1:50:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. And we. Texted, we texted a little bit to, to make a ti- you know, make a date.
1:50:28 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:50:28 Speaker 01 And.
1:50:29 Dax Shepard? You and the candidate.
1:50:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:50:30 Dax Shepard? Not the matchmaker.
1:50:31 Speaker 01 Correct. And so, but it was very just like logistics. There was like one, one cute exchange and then it was on to logistics.
1:50:40 Dax Shepard? Right. Well, you guys sound both type A. He's got the funds to get a matchmaker.
1:50:45 Speaker 01 I guess so.
1:50:45 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:50:46 Speaker 01 So this was Saturday and, and he said, I have a bit, really busy week. What about next weekend? And I said, yeah, that should work. And he said, you're in blank, right? Well, it was feels and.
1:51:06 Speaker 01 But if I started getting very protective.
1:51:08 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:51:09 Speaker 01 And I was like, yeah, and you're on the west side. And then he never responded.
1:51:14 Dax Shepard? Again, he said he was on the west side?
1:51:16 Speaker 01 I said, I asked the question and you're on the west side, question mark.
1:51:20 Dax Shepard? Ah.
1:51:20 Speaker 01 And that was Saturday.
1:51:22 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:51:23 Speaker 01 He didn't respond.
1:51:24 Dax Shepard? Oh, my gosh.
1:51:25 Speaker 01 And so I was like.
1:51:26 Dax Shepard? He's been killed?
1:51:27 Speaker 01 Well, no, I was like, what happened? But.
1:51:29 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:51:29 Speaker 01 Okay, whatever. Who cares?
1:51:31 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:51:31 Speaker 01 And then on Friday, he texted.
1:51:36 Dax Shepard? Six days later.
1:51:36 Speaker 01 Uh huh. Six days later.
1:51:38 Dax Shepard? Seven days, yeah.
1:51:39 Speaker 01 Yeah. And he said, hey, sorry, this got away from me. Um, are you still good for this weekend? And I was like, no.
1:51:49 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, good for you. Yeah.
1:51:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, okay.
1:51:53 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
1:51:55 Speaker 01 I, then I felt like, oh, am I just being like, doing a normal, like, this is an out. Finding a way out, I guess.
1:52:04 Dax Shepard? Things could be happening.
1:52:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:05 Dax Shepard? Some of it could be that. What I like about no is I'm not gonna be playing along with this role as you as the boss. And you can call me in six days when you remembered.
1:52:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:17 Dax Shepard? I won't, I won't participate in that.
1:52:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:19 Dax Shepard? Go see me for six days, checking in going, we still good?
1:52:22 Speaker 01 Exactly. It's not for me.
1:52:24 Dax Shepard? That's a, I would, if a, let's just say if a woman did that to me.
1:52:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:28 Dax Shepard? I don't even know if I'd respond to the follow up in seven days.
1:52:32 Speaker 01 Hmm, that's interesting.
1:52:33 Dax Shepard? But I do like that you said no.
1:52:35 Speaker 01 I said, and I, at first I was, I was like, gonna be pretty harsh.
1:52:40 Dax Shepard? Uh huh, yeah.
1:52:40 Speaker 01 Um, and then I backed off and I just. Said, what did I say exactly? Let's see what I said.
1:52:46 Dax Shepard? You left room for him to apologize.
1:52:48 Speaker 01 Kind of. I wanted to see how he would respond.
1:52:50 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:52:51 Speaker 01 Um, yeah. I said, you're on the west side? He said, hey, sorry, lost track of this. Yeah, I'm on the west side a week later.
1:52:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah.
1:52:58 Speaker 01 Are you still good with tomorrow? I said, hey, no problem. I made plans this weekend, but happy to try to schedule something again. And then he said, oh, okay, bummer. Well, we can try another time.
1:53:11 Speaker 01 That was it.
1:53:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:53:12 Speaker 01 And I said, yeah, for sure. I said, next week nights are pretty open for me other than this, and I didn't hear anything back. So it was interesting because I.
1:53:21 Dax Shepard? So first of all, that was much nicer than I was expecting and I even nicer than I think he deserves.
1:53:27 Speaker 01 That's, yeah.
1:53:27 Dax Shepard? I might have been really direct. No, you can't go to me for six days and then ask, are we still on tomorrow? That's not for me.
1:53:35 Speaker 01 That's.
1:53:35 Dax Shepard? And then allow him to mount a real apology because he owes you an apology, not, hey, I lost track of this.
1:53:42 Speaker 01 Right. I agree. I agree. And that was my instinct, but then I thought, well, maybe whatever, like, I don't know him.
1:53:49 Dax Shepard? Maybe he was in surgery for six days straight.
1:53:51 Speaker 01 I mean, I was just like, I don't, maybe I should give it another, like, offer up some other option, but.
1:54:00 Dax Shepard? I'm impressed.
1:54:01 Speaker 01 Thank you. Well, for me, I kind of thought, oh, this person is used to that being fine.
1:54:08 Dax Shepard? Sure. Yeah, that's one. That could also be it, but that would be like the least generous version, right?
1:54:13 Speaker 01 Well, I think it's kind of generous. It's like for him, women are happy to just go out with him when he's ready to go out with him. She said he's really hot and tall.
1:54:26 Speaker 01 So like, I don't know.
1:54:29 Dax Shepard? All the more reason you gotta say.
1:54:31 Speaker 01 Well, I agree. Like, good for you if this has worked out for you in the past, but that is not.
1:54:37 Dax Shepard? I would just want it to be a little more clear than, it's not that you just made plans.
1:54:41 Speaker 01 I know.
1:54:41 Dax Shepard? It's a no because you can't.
1:54:43 Speaker 01 Can't do that.
1:54:43 Dax Shepard? You can't go seven days and then check in to see if we're still good for tomorrow.
1:54:47 Speaker 01 I know.
1:54:48 Dax Shepard? That's not how I operate.
1:54:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, but then I.
1:54:51 Dax Shepard? And not even hurt feelings needy, just like, like, that's, that's a.
1:54:55 Speaker 01 I just didn't want to get into that, right? Then it's like, oh, sorry, or whatever he's gonna, I don't want to really have that interaction with someone I don't really know. Although I did, that was my instinct and I did ask for advice and. I guess it was, I got bad advice.
1:55:11 Dax Shepard? Well, I don't think there's good or bad. This is a version.
1:55:14 Speaker 01 I don't know, but he didn't respond again. So like, I'm not seeing him, obviously.
1:55:21 Speaker 01 And, and that's two strikes. That's two strikes.
1:55:29 Dax Shepard? Yeah, with the matchmaker.
1:55:30 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah.
1:55:33 Dax Shepard? It's hard for me to not, I have to really fight being judgmental of someone that would be using a matchmaker.
1:55:43 Speaker 01 Well, I am.
1:55:44 Dax Shepard? No, the man.
1:55:45 Speaker 01 Well.
1:55:46 Dax Shepard? Because, yeah, why do I want to be ju- I wanna, I wanna say you can't farm out that activity. Like, you can't just pay your way into that. It feels like a call girl service a little bit.
1:55:58 Speaker 01 You don't think that about the apps, but I guess you're the one scrolling.
1:56:02 Dax Shepard? Yeah, these are just both mutually looking around and hoping to find somebody, I guess. But there's something about, um, farming that out to somebody.
1:56:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:56:13 Dax Shepard? It feels a little entitled. Like, I'm a busy person and I'm just going to have them go fine. I like this, this and this. I'm acknowledging that I'm trying to fight through that.
1:56:24 Speaker 01 Yeah, because I think.
1:56:25 Dax Shepard? I'm sure there's a lot of versions that are not that.
1:56:27 Speaker 01 I don't think it's that dissimilar from telling all your friends, like, hey, I am single and I want you to keep your eye out for me. This is what I like.
1:56:37 Dax Shepard? Yes, you know what it feels like? If you were at the Four Seasons and you called the concierge and said, I need a date tonight.
1:56:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:56:43 Dax Shepard? Like, calling the concierge to get you a date is a little bit the, when I want to be judgmental of it, is what it feels like.
1:56:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, I, I understand that. I understand.
1:56:53 Dax Shepard? And they don't deserve you, anyone that would call a concierge to get you. Okay? Can I just say that?
1:57:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:57:01 Dax Shepard? But again, I can, I can, I can imagine Bill Gates, who I worship, going, I need help. I always get help from experts when I don't know what I'm doing. So why wouldn't I go see an expert to help me find love?
1:57:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:57:15 Dax Shepard? When I paint it that way and I make it a real person.
1:57:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:57:18 Dax Shepard? Then I'm right, I'm sympathetic to it and I'm supportive of it.
1:57:23 Speaker 04 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
1:57:36 Speaker 01 But I agree with you. I don't think in all these cases, it's not necessarily,
1:57:42 Speaker 01 I don't know how. I do think a lot of it is like, make this easier for me, but it is hard to date. So I do think, you know, make this easier for me is a, is a real thing to want and pursue.
1:57:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:57:57 Speaker 01 I mean, of course, my ego also, when he, even when he said, "I'm busy," I was like, "Bitch, I'm busy too."
1:58:05 Dax Shepard? Everyone's busy.
1:58:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're not the only, and I do think, like, I mean, I don't know what he knows about me.
1:58:11 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:58:12 Speaker 01 If he knows my last name, I don't know if he's, I don't know. It's kind of what you've talked about before of, like, the really, really, really gross part of being so insecure, but also, like, knowing your worth, or like, having like, a, a, a strong ego too.
1:58:34 Dax Shepard? Zero self-esteem and megalomaniacal thinking. That's, that's me.
1:58:38 Speaker 01 I know, but, and I, but I don't, I don't think I'm megalomaniacal about it.
1:58:42 Dax Shepard? You're not as extreme on either ends of the spectrum.
1:58:45 Speaker 01 Right, exactly, yes. But I, I do think there are moments, and it, I guess it depends on who I'm interacting with, but in this case, when he, when he says like, "I'm, I'm so busy," with no other question, you know, it's not like, "I'm so busy, what do you do?" What do you, you know, it's, it's just like, "This is, this is my life. I'm busy."
1:59:07 Dax Shepard? If you can work your way into my life, we've got a deal.
1:59:11 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:59:12 Dax Shepard? That's what's being triggered for me.
1:59:13 Speaker 01 Yes, and then what happens for me, which is equally gross,
1:59:17 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:59:18 Speaker 01 is you have to work your way into my life. This is not gonna work because I'm you.
1:59:24 Dax Shepard? Yes, I think I could create the statement that would perfectly sum you up.
1:59:28 Speaker 01 Okay. I'm scared.
1:59:30 Dax Shepard? Indulge me.
1:59:31 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:59:31 Dax Shepard? I'm very unattractive and I'm a hell of a catch.
1:59:34 Speaker 01 Yeah, good.
1:59:37 Dax Shepard? This is your story about yourself. I think you think you're unattractive and I think you think you're a hell of a catch, which is the thing we're talking about.
1:59:46 Speaker 01 No, I don't think, no.
1:59:48 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:59:48 Speaker 01 I don't think it's, I, I'm not, I don't think I'm unattractive.
1:59:52 Dax Shepard? Okay, great. That's better than I was expecting you to say. What?
1:59:57 Dax Shepard? Ugly, is that what you said?
1:59:58 Speaker 01 Okay, yes, but I, I do think, I think I'm ugly, but that I, there is something overall.
2:00:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, overall.
2:00:10 Dax Shepard? All right, so now I don't even feel bad. Yours was worse. I'm ugly, but I'm a fucking catch.
2:00:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, I guess.
2:00:18 Speaker 01 Although when you say it out loud, it's like, no, I'm, if I'm ugly, I can't be a catch.
2:00:22 Dax Shepard? That's what mine's been since I was like 15. Like, yeah, I'm not much to look at, but I'm a fucking catch.
2:00:32 Speaker 01 I hate myself. I need to read an upcoming guest book. But I really don't. I don't hate myself.
2:00:39 Dax Shepard? No.
2:00:39 Speaker 01 I mean, that's, I don't. I, I do.
2:00:42 Dax Shepard? You're a catch and you know it.
2:00:43 Speaker 01 I do know it.
2:00:45 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:00:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:00:46 Dax Shepard? If you could get the first end of that thing addressed, uh, you.
2:00:51 Speaker 01 I don't know if it would help me to know that because I think it's, I actually think. Really?
2:00:57 Dax Shepard? Yes, because you're also writing your honesty, that you're also carrying a lot of baggage of, of insecurity.
2:01:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I am.
2:01:05 Dax Shepard? And you're looking for reasons to save yourself the embarrassment of not being chosen.
2:01:09 Speaker 01 Yes, I am.
2:01:10 Dax Shepard? So that's really happening.
2:01:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:12 Dax Shepard? And it's strong. And I think if you felt hot.
2:01:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:16 Dax Shepard? And you knew, I mean, you know, you've got a great career. You know, you're super smart. You know, you're personable. You know, you're good in a crowd. But you know, all the other things. You're not, you're not insecure about any of those things.
2:01:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true.
2:01:27 Dax Shepard? So if you just added that I'm hot, I don't think your mind would let you go to a place that you're not gonna get picked. Even if something didn't work out, you would go like someone with great self-esteem.
2:01:40 Speaker 01 Right.
2:01:40 Dax Shepard? It wasn't a match.
2:01:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:42 Dax Shepard? It's not that I wasn't picked or I wasn't good enough. It's like the audition where it's like, yeah, you are a better actor than so and so, but they're fucking Chinese and I need a Chinese guy.
2:01:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, I guess so. I, but I, I wonder if I just had like a hundred percent self-esteem, no insecurities. I felt so good.
2:02:02 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:02:02 Speaker 01 I don't know that I would ever find some, I mean, I already am never finding someone. So I guess what would be the difference, but.
2:02:09 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you're in a zero risk.
2:02:11 Speaker 01 I, I guess that's true.
2:02:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:02:12 Speaker 01 But I think I would just feel like.
2:02:14 Dax Shepard? To be mean, I say that to be, that's a really good part of your counter narrative CBT training, which is like, I, there's, I'm not risking anything, but I think if you had those other components, I think you would, because there's also this kind of self, self fulfilling prophecy, which is like, you're not actively going out there and spotting someone and making it fucking happen.
2:02:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm not.
2:02:35 Dax Shepard? So you're in the incoming call business and guess what? You don't love the incoming calls. And then also you didn't select them and, and there's all, but if you had those other things, it wouldn't be about like, who's going to knock on your door one day? You're like, every time you saw someone that interested you at all, you'd be like, oh, I'm going to go make that fucking happen right now. What's up? What are you doing? Do you like coffee? Do you like bagels? Here's the things I like and I cook. You would hit them and they, and you would, and if they didn't respond, you wouldn't give a fuck. Cause you're like, I'm hot and I got a great career and I'm everything.
2:03:08 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't do that. I don't know how to do, I don't know what that's like. Yeah.
2:03:14 Dax Shepard? And I think most people don't.
2:03:17 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I think a lot of.
2:03:19 Dax Shepard? People are afraid to go pursue.
2:03:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03:21 Dax Shepard? Someone they want.
2:03:22 Speaker 01 It's scary.
2:03:23 Dax Shepard? I think my success in life has solely been as I wasn't afraid or I overcame my fear to go say hi to everyone at the bar that I liked.
2:03:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03:32 Dax Shepard? I just got in there and these other guys that they probably would have rather been with, just never came up and said hi to them. And they were stuck with me, but I'll take it.
2:03:41 Speaker 01 It worked out.
2:03:42 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:03:43 Speaker 01 But okay, I have a bad question. Do you think, my stomach. Also, this is kind of a ding ding ding, because this is for Alison, conversations, dating.
2:03:55 Dax Shepard? Talk.
2:03:56 Speaker 01 Talking. So this is very relevant.
2:03:58 Dax Shepard? It is accidentally.
2:04:03 Speaker 01 You do recognize, right, that like, or am I wrong? I mean.
2:04:07 Dax Shepard? Mama. Mama.
2:04:10 Speaker 01 But do you ever get to those? Ah.
2:04:13 Dax Shepard? You ever get to those? Ahler?
2:04:20 Speaker 01 Not everyone's physically beautiful, or am I wrong about that?
2:04:26 Dax Shepard? I think you're a bit wrong about that. Look, I'm not one that would deny there are things happening on a primitive level, which is like symmetry. These, we know these things are real.
2:04:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:04:37 Dax Shepard? We know fertility is somehow deduced by looking at, like, things are happening that I will not be a denier of. I, in fact, I find it annoying when people pretend that some people aren't gonna, 98% of people are gonna find Brad Pitt attractive. We can acknowledge that that's the truth.
2:04:55 Speaker 01 Physically, just by looking, no, no, no personality.
2:04:59 Dax Shepard? Right.
2:05:00 Speaker 01 Kristen, like, I think 100, 100% of people will see, just see her face.
2:05:06 Dax Shepard? Yes, but I can think of, and I'm not gonna name them out loud, because I don't want it to run the risk of sounding mean.
2:05:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:05:12 Dax Shepard? But there are, I know many women who decided they were hot as fuck and sexy, and they are.
2:05:19 Speaker 01 Right.
2:05:21 Dax Shepard? And a lot, and they have made it in show business, some of them.
2:05:24 Speaker 01 Right, and you don't think.
2:05:26 Dax Shepard? And you can do that.
2:05:27 Speaker 01 But you don't think on face, I mean, you can do, I mean, I think confident, but that doesn't do anything to their, are you, you think it like morphs their face?
2:05:36 Dax Shepard? It 100% morphs their face.
2:05:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:05:38 Dax Shepard? Because they're carrying themselves like they're hot shit.
2:05:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:05:42 Dax Shepard? You know, like, fuck.
2:05:43 Speaker 01 They must be.
2:05:44 Dax Shepard? They know they're hot shit.
2:05:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:05:46 Dax Shepard? You then go, what am I missing?
2:05:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:05:49 Dax Shepard? And you go like, oh, yeah, her fucking hair is awesome. Yeah. And then that's, oh, what a smile. Yeah, look at her eyes are this. And you, and you go like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But if they walk in like this, like, you're like, oh, God, they're fucking. They've been told they're a mess their whole life. It does, it does.
2:06:08 Speaker 01 No, it does. You're right. You're right, but even.
2:06:11 Dax Shepard? And I, I just know, cause I'm speaking, I am the beneficiary of that. I, that has been my angle.
2:06:16 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:06:17 Dax Shepard? For a long, long time. And, and it hasn't worked all the time.
2:06:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:06:21 Dax Shepard? And a lot of girls are like, no buddy, you're not fucking, you're presenting yourself as some 10, you're not. That certainly has happened.
2:06:27 Speaker 01 No.
2:06:27 Dax Shepard? Yes, no, it's happened a bunch of times.
2:06:29 Speaker 01 Well.
2:06:30 Dax Shepard? But it's also worked a bunch.
2:06:32 Speaker 01 I think you potentially like personality more than your average.
2:06:39 Dax Shepard? I think you're right. And I think it weirdly is a sign of my confidence, which is I don't need a trophy woman. I don't need to be seen with a woman that's hot.
2:06:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:06:51 Dax Shepard? But I need to be with the coolest woman in the room.
2:06:53 Speaker 01 Right.
2:06:53 Dax Shepard? For sure. So sure, there will be men who don't prioritize that. And what a blessing, you've weeded them out.
2:07:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, but I'm like, there's no one left.
2:07:05 Dax Shepard? No, there are a lot of dudes.
2:07:06 Speaker 01 I kind of think there's no one left. It's like the guys with the, with, who, who respect a woman's personality and like is attracted to that and like that. They're gone, they're taken. Like those people are, for women, that is the most attractive thing.
2:07:26 Dax Shepard? I think that is overly pessimistic.
2:07:29 Speaker 01 Okay, well.
2:07:30 Dax Shepard? There's numerous reasons why great people find themselves single all the time.
2:07:34 Speaker 01 Anomen.
2:07:36 Dax Shepard? Anomen's one of them. But their partner didn't grow with them.
2:07:39 Speaker 01 Right, right.
2:07:40 Dax Shepard? You know.
2:07:41 Speaker 01 That's true. Whoa. Okay.
2:07:44 Dax Shepard? We're lost.
2:07:45 Speaker 01 We are lost indeed. Okay, um.
2:07:49 Dax Shepard? But my thing about you shaving your sides has always been about that.
2:07:54 Speaker 01 I know, but that, I know, but it's not me.
2:07:56 Dax Shepard? You don't know what me, like, you can't say, because you've filled in what that means from something else you've seen.
2:08:05 Speaker 01 No, no, I, and then this is the other swing that I'm talking, I know me.
2:08:11 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah.
2:08:12 Speaker 01 I am not unclear about me. Like I know who I am and I like that person.
2:08:22 Speaker 01 So I am not going to be like, I guess maybe I'll change up this whole me in order to be
2:08:32 Dax Shepard? Broadcast.
2:08:34 Speaker 01 Exactly, to broadcast or be more like overtly attractive to people.
2:08:39 Speaker 01 I, I'm like, no thanks.
2:08:41 Dax Shepard? You are assessing that whole suggestion on aesthetic.
2:08:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:08:46 Dax Shepard? And my story about you is actually you had been a chameleon your whole life.
2:08:52 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
2:08:53 Dax Shepard? And in this show, I had, we have friends who go, oh my God, I didn't know that side of Monica.
2:08:59 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
2:09:00 Dax Shepard? You have become more and more yourself.
2:09:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true. And just with age.
2:09:04 Dax Shepard? And you are unique on a level that shaves sides makes sense. You're thinking of it in this like really ironclad aesthetic and punk rock. But you're missing the point it makes that I'm making.
2:09:16 Speaker 01 I know the point you're making.
2:09:18 Dax Shepard? I'm one of the most unique people here. I'm one of the most original people here and I'm different.
2:09:24 Speaker 01 I know.
2:09:25 Dax Shepard? And this thing is a visual cue that I am.
2:09:29 Speaker 01 I know. I know what you're saying, but, but you might not be hearing what I'm saying, which is, I get that.
2:09:37 Dax Shepard? That's not who you are.
2:09:38 Speaker 01 I am not someone who, and I like this about me. I am not someone who is like, look at me, I'm so unique, I'm so special. For me, I'm like, you get to know me and you have that, you make your opinion. And hopefully you come to that conclusion.
2:09:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:09:57 Speaker 01 But I am not here to, yeah, to like throw that in your face. And I like that about me. I don't, I don't love when people need to do that.
2:10:06 Dax Shepard? Yeah, you're like, I want people to find out I have a great body. Literally.
2:10:12 Speaker 01 Well.
2:10:13 Dax Shepard? That is, and I want people to find out I am like this very unique person.
2:10:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:10:19 Dax Shepard? I hope everyone is like, you know, willing to be presented with one thing and then have to climb through some layers to find out all this great stuff.
2:10:29 Speaker 01 Saying, that's why I'm ugly. Like if you have to get. Over the hump of my face.
2:10:35 Dax Shepard? Oh, my God.
2:10:36 Speaker 01 Then.
2:10:37 Dax Shepard? I was warned about this, but.
2:10:41 Speaker 01 Okay, let's do it. We have.
2:10:42 Dax Shepard? Yeah, we gotta wrap up.
2:10:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, we really do.
2:10:44 Speaker 03 Suzanne's almost here.
2:10:45 Speaker 01 Oh, my God.
2:10:46 Dax Shepard? Okay, great. We are resuming. We had to break to interview, and I have since been out in the rain. Is it obvious?
2:10:51 Speaker 01 I see some spittle.
2:10:53 Dax Shepard? I feel something on my forehead.
2:10:54 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, that's true. I put my hair up.
2:10:57 Dax Shepard? I would hate for, well, if we were completely. Oh, geez, so it's a real, yeah, okay.
2:11:03 Speaker 01 Wow, wow, wow.
2:11:04 Dax Shepard? Well, the listener won't give a fuck.
2:11:07 Speaker 01 Okay, so some facts for Allison.
2:11:09 Dax Shepard? Okay, great.
2:11:09 Speaker 01 I loved this episode. I thought she, I was really interesting, just the most basic topic possible. We really do take for granted. I've thought about it a few times in conversation.
2:11:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah, the thing that stuck with me that I really liked is this, like, fallacy of naturalness, that everyone thinks that everything should happen organically, or that means it's not a good fit.
2:11:31 Speaker 01 Yes, exactly. And even just, like, boomerang questions I've noticed from people, even me, I think about ending on a quest, you know, I've just been more aware, which has been interesting.
2:11:45 Dax Shepard? Oh, I'm such a boomerang question. It's so embarrassing.
2:11:49 Speaker 01 Group hierarchies in conversation. That's really fascinating to watch.
2:11:54 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:11:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, I loved it. Okay, I'm gonna play a tiny bit of Diet Pepsi, a song by Addison Rae.
2:12:00 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:12:01 Speaker 01 That comes up in the episode.
2:12:10 Dax Shepard? She's my kind of gal. Makes me, it makes me rethink Diet Coke.
2:12:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, you might need to.
2:12:15 Dax Shepard? I have to weigh her against my affinity for Bill Gates and Diet Coke.
2:12:18 Speaker 01 Oh, God, that's a lot to balance.
2:12:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah. You know what I like about that?
2:12:22 Speaker 01 Hmm.
2:12:23 Dax Shepard? That she likes that her boyfriend's got a Costco chain on.
2:12:26 Speaker 01 Oh.
2:12:27 Dax Shepard? That says a lot.
2:12:29 Speaker 01 This is like Cookie Boy.
2:12:30 Dax Shepard? This is like, I respect her. She's not like trying to have some dude in Gucci. She's like, her man looks good in this Costco chain. She's like a real chick. I'm gonna have a Diet Pepsi.
2:12:42 Dax Shepard? Do you like those things?
2:12:43 Speaker 01 Costco chain?
2:12:44 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I think that's a cool detail of it.
2:12:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean.
2:12:47 Dax Shepard? Okay, go ahead.
2:12:49 Speaker 01 No, it's great. But it's exactly what I said about Cookie Boy.
2:12:53 Dax Shepard? How so? Tell me, explain the connective tissue?
2:12:56 Speaker 01 Confidence.
2:12:57 Dax Shepard? Cookie Boy.
2:12:58 Speaker 01 Yeah. But.
2:13:00 Dax Shepard? It's exactly the same.
2:13:01 Speaker 01 The same. Um, okay. How many people are mirror twins? About 25% of identical twins are mirror twins.
2:13:09 Dax Shepard? That's not good enough.
2:13:10 Speaker 01 You want 90.
2:13:12 Dax Shepard? I gotta stop saying it. I thought the majority of twins did this.
2:13:15 Speaker 01 I know, but you can still ask because maybe you'll find one of the 25%.
2:13:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah. One in every four people I ask will say yes.
2:13:23 Speaker 01 Exactly. Okay, so we talked about coordination games, game theory for a little bit, which was interesting. And there's some classic ones. Prisoner's Dilemma, which we spoke about.
2:13:37 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
2:13:38 Speaker 01 The Battle of the Sexes. Okay, I'm gonna read about that for a second.
2:13:42 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:13:43 Speaker 01 The game involves two players, boy and girl, deciding either going to a football game or going to an opera for their date, which respectively represent boys and girls' preferred activity, i.e. boy prefers football game and girl prefers opera. This example is a two-person, non-cooperative, non-zero-sum, that's called a TNNC.
2:14:03 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:14:03 Speaker 01 Game with opposite payoffs or conflicting preferences.
2:14:08 Dax Shepard? I don't know why it's zero-sum because whoever wins is going to win everything and the other person's gonna get nothing of what they want. That feels like the definition of zero-sum. Okay, we'll keep going.
2:14:16 Speaker 01 Because there are two Nash equilibrium. This case is a pure coordination problem with no possibility of refinement or selection. Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other, and yet. Non-zero sum for you if you lose, I guess.
2:14:36 Dax Shepard? Zero sum is chess. You can't kinda win, you can't win halfway.
2:14:40 Speaker 01 Right.
2:14:41 Dax Shepard? You either win or you lose.
2:14:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
2:14:43 Dax Shepard? Poker, you could come with $200 and leave with 300.
2:14:47 Speaker 01 Right.
2:14:47 Dax Shepard? Other people could also have 400, someone could be down, you know. There's varying degrees of success.
2:14:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:14:55 Dax Shepard? But this feels like it's all or nothing.
2:14:57 Speaker 01 Oh, this does feel zero sum, you're saying. I see.
2:14:59 Dax Shepard? You're either gonna get to go see your thing you wanted, or you're not. You're gonna be stuck at the opera.
2:15:04 Speaker 01 Right, okay. Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other, and yet the strategy without coordination will lead to two outcomes with even worse payoffs for both if they have disagreement on what to do on their date.
2:15:20 Dax Shepard? Okay, which is all, they'll have to go to a prison cell or something is the third option if they don't agree? It's gotta be something worse than the football game for her and the opera for him.
2:15:30 Speaker 01 That's all it says.
2:15:31 Dax Shepard? Okay, that's pretty good. I like it.
2:15:36 Speaker 01 It has, it has a chart, but I don't get it.
2:15:39 Dax Shepard? But really quick, yes, if there's a third option that they are penalized with for not agreeing, then yes, it's not zero sum.
2:15:46 Speaker 01 Sure, maybe all of them have that element.
2:15:48 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:15:49 Speaker 01 Now there's a matching pennies game.
2:15:51 Dax Shepard? Ooh.
2:15:52 Speaker 01 This game is a two-person zero-sum game. In order to play this game, both players will each need to be given a fair, two-sided penny. To start the game, both players will each choose to either flip their penny to heads or tails. This action is to be done in secrecy, and there should be no attempt at investigating the choice of the other player.
2:16:12 Dax Shepard? Let's keep it honest.
2:16:13 Speaker 01 After both players have confirmed their decisions, they will simultaneously reveal their choices. This concludes the actions taken by the players to determine the outcome. The win condition for this game is different for both players. For simplicity in explanation, let's denote the players as player one and player two. In order for player one to win, the faces of the pennies must match.
2:16:35 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:16:35 Speaker 01 This means they must both be heads or tails. In order for player two to win, the faces of the pennies must be different.
2:16:41 Dax Shepard? Oh, no.
2:16:43 Speaker 01 The payoff slash prize of this game is receiving the loser's penny in addition to your own.
2:16:49 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:16:49 Speaker 01 Two pennies.
2:16:50 Dax Shepard? Okay. Um. Kinda outdated.
2:16:53 Speaker 01 Well, you'd keep playing and playing. Um, yeah. Looking at this matrix, we can conclude a few basic observations. One, for all scenarios, there will be a winner and a loser.
2:17:04 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:17:05 Speaker 01 Two, this is a zero-sum game where the payout to the winner is equal to the loss of the loser.
2:17:10 Dax Shepard? I get.
2:17:11 Speaker 01 Three, there is no pure strategy Nash equilibrium. We didn't, we don't know what that is.
2:17:16 Dax Shepard? Right.
2:17:17 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:17:18 Dax Shepard? That would be a third. That has to be a third option that's less bad than the uh, worse outcome and not as good as the ideal outcome.
2:17:26 Speaker 01 Non-cooperative games are generally analyzed through the non-cooperative game theory framework, which attempts to predict players' individual strategies and payoffs. And in order to find the Nash equilibrium. I love this.
2:17:39 Dax Shepard? The wordage.
2:17:40 Speaker 01 This is so fancy and hard. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna become an expert in game theory.
2:17:48 Dax Shepard? Oh, I, I hope you do.
2:17:49 Speaker 01 I'm not smart enough for that, but I want to be. So maybe I will. Okay, that's that. Con's dinner party rules, conversation.
2:17:56 Dax Shepard? We need to know these if we're gonna host a Con dinner party.
2:17:59 Speaker 01 I know and I want to. Conversation structure. Dinner conversation should have three stages. Narration, argumentation, jesting. Light-hearted plays of wit.
2:18:08 Dax Shepard? Hmm.
2:18:09 Speaker 01 Code of secrecy. Dinner party conversation should not be discussed with anyone outside of the dinner party.
2:18:13 Dax Shepard? Ooh.
2:18:15 Speaker 01 Purpose, the goal of.
2:18:16 Dax Shepard? That one's gonna be hard for me. If I hear something great at the dinner party, I will keep the anonymity of the speaker, but I might wanna get the message out.
2:18:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
2:18:23 Dax Shepard? I'm gonna violate that one.
2:18:24 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:18:25 Dax Shepard? I just want you to know up front.
2:18:26 Speaker 01 Not invited. Okay. Purpose, the goal of Con's dinner parties was to encourage civility and listening to others. Con believed that participants would hear each other and feel heard. Other dinner party etiquette tips, RSVP, arrive on time, be respectful of the host's practices, beliefs, and environment. Oh, that's bad for you. You won't eat the, the gluten bread.
2:18:44 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:18:45 Speaker 01 Be a good conversationalist.
2:18:46 Dax Shepard? I'm gonna smoke cigarettes.
2:18:48 Speaker 01 Be a good conversationalist, bring a gift or something for the party to enjoy.
2:18:51 Dax Shepard? Oh, okay.
2:18:53 Speaker 01 Parties should be limited to nine people and no fewer than three to avoid side conversations.
2:18:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah, side conversations. I was just with my whole family and there was some side conversing.
2:19:04 Speaker 01 There was, and it was driving you a little...
2:19:06 Dax Shepard? Yeah, it's a little.
2:19:08 Speaker 01 Alright, that's it.
2:19:09 Dax Shepard? That was everything.
2:19:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:19:10 Dax Shepard? Okay, wonderful.
2:19:13 Speaker 01 Love you.
2:19:13 Dax Shepard? Love you.
Previous Walton Goggins Next Armchair Anonymous: DNA Testing Page updated November 4, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated