Tom Pelphrey

Tom Pelphrey (Task, Ozark, Love and Death) is an Emmy-winning actor and mental health advocate. He joins Armchair Expert to discuss growing up in New Jersey near the Shore, the impact of his intense high school acting teacher, and how he maintains lifelong childhood friendships. Tom and Dax talk about early success colliding with addiction, the relentless pace of daytime television, and rebuilding a life through sobriety. Tom explains why tying identity to achievement can be dangerous, how awareness unlocks real change, and why fatherhood is the ultimate ego reset. Take printer ink off your to-do list with HP Smart Tank | hp.com/SmartTank Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Mouse.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:05Dax Shepard?

  Today, we have, for me, a revelation of last year, for others, not old news, because he's been great so many times.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:13Dax Shepard?

  But I was exposed to him in Task last year.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  Ooh, what a show.

• 0:17Dax Shepard?

  Tom Pelphrey, he's an Emmy nominated actor. He was the bad guy with a heart of gold in Task. He also was mind blowing on Ozark, Love and Death, Iron Fist, and Guiding Light at the beginning.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Guiding Light.

• 0:31Dax Shepard?

  And one daytime Emmys.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I probably watched him in Guiding Light because I used to watch that with my grandma.

• 0:37Dax Shepard?

  Was that one of your shows?

• 0:38Speaker 01

  It was. It was one of my shows. I probably watched a young him.

• 0:41Dax Shepard?

  If you've not seen Task, get on it. It streams on HBO right now and it's just a beautiful show. And then in addition to him, you have Mark Ruffalo, which jeez, Louise.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  It's such a good show all around.

• 0:54Dax Shepard?

  Powerhouse. Please enjoy Tom Pelphrey. We get support from Quince.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:10Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen, and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 1:50Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:01Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home, too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 2:19Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from Scottsdale, Arizona. Monica, with summer ending or heading into fall, I've been researching a nice, quick getaway location and I keep coming back to Scottsdale, Arizona.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Ooh, Scottsdale's good. What's drawing you to it?

• 2:51Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, I have this wonderful memory of going there as a kid when I would go see my stepdad when he was working out there. The weather is perfect in fall. Warm, sunny, no humidity. And you can really do whatever you want with your time there. I want to do a sunrise hike through the Sonoran Desert, be surrounded by Sowaro, and then at the same afternoon, just completely melt into a spa treatment at one of their luxury resorts.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  Oh, that sounds amazing. I want to do that. Also, I was there visiting my brother once and I loved Old Town Scottsdale. It's so walkable. They have galleries and cute little restaurants and shops. The food scene alone is worth the trip.

• 3:30Dax Shepard?

  What I keep reading is that it's luxurious, but not stuffy. There's no pressure to do it a certain way. You can explore public art, check out the architecture, go off-roading in the desert, or just sit and watch a sunset.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  It really is the perfect fall reset.

• 3:44Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about all Scottsdale has to offer at unwindinscottsdale.com.

• 4:07Dax Shepard?

  I feel like this is a very long time coming.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  I know, brother. We have so many friends in common.

• 4:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, Ziegler's for sure.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Ziegler's.

• 4:14Dax Shepard?

  Who else?

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Well, I just feel like from that world, there must be more.

• 4:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Right? Yeah. I guess I missed.

• 4:19Dax Shepard?

  There's no chance we've ever been in a meeting together, is there? I can't remember. But I did have a panic this morning, like, oh, my God, what if we were in a meeting together?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  If you're best friends.

• 4:32Dax Shepard?

  Where do you have to be at 12:30? I'm so curious. Be honest.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Something for a photo shoot and some kind of interview, but I don't really know what it is.

• 4:40Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  You're just getting carded from place to place.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  I just fucking honestly, they tell me where to go. I say, okay.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Do my best to show up.

• 4:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Have you had to adopt that strategy? Because I kind of watched my wife operate that way. For years I was like, I need to know everything I'm doing so far out in advance, like control freak. And then I'd watch her just kind of wake up and figure out what she's doing that day. And it worked out just fine for her. And so slowly I've been like, oh, yeah, I'll figure out what I'm doing tomorrow. Have you always been this way? Or did you evolve to this?

• 5:10Speaker 02

  No, I've kind of always been this way, but to the extreme that it was not great.

• 5:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, a little detrimental.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, really, just not thinking at all about.

• 5:19Dax Shepard?

  In interviews, basically.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Just thinking about tomorrow. Yeah. But I guess it is a good thing to do to not think too far ahead when you're busy, because then you get a little overwhelmed.

• 5:31Dax Shepard?

  I just produce a bunch of anxiety, obviously, because I'm not in today. I'm focused so much on tomorrow.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Do you feel like you're more prone to have anxiety?

• 5:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you know, I have zero in my waking hours. Like, if you ask me, do you have anxiety? I don't. At night, clearly I do, because I wake up many, many nights a week and just ruminate on stuff. That's coming up in the future for an hour. So clearly I do have a lot of anxiety. But when I'm awake, I'm not fearful of it.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  It wakes you up from sleep.

• 6:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Have you ever read Jung? Carl Jung?

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  Carl Jung, no.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Just so much of it is you use the subconscious. So often in a Jungian session, you'll just talk about your dreams. And I wonder if these things are waking you up in the middle of the night, that there might be a way in there, that you're not consciously experiencing it, but maybe there's something deeper.

• 6:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I mean, I was just in Nashville for a week where we have a house and I don't work there. And I sleep like a baby there.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 6:25Dax Shepard?

  And I don't ever wake up with anxiety because I have literally nothing to do.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:29Dax Shepard?

  What's your anxiety level?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Not high, not very high. Again, back to the not thinking too much into the future. If anything in the past, and this is a lot less so recently, but I would feel depression at times. Some people are kind of more one way, some people a little bit more the other.

• 6:45Dax Shepard?

  So just like melancholy?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, just the kind of sadness sometimes coming out of nowhere, not necessarily attached to anything.

• 6:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And then the future is bad, right? When you're in that state, it's not full of opportunity and hope.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Everything feels bad in that state. Everything just gets kind of gray.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Maybe you're not even thinking about tomorrow or the future. It's just right now is bad or just like feels heavy.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just kind of comes on. And that's an interesting thing to observe. You know, Akartole, if you guys read the power now? Yeah, that book really changed my life in a lot of ways, but he sort of says even the way you talk to yourself about it, even saying, instead of I'm sad, to say I have a sadness in me to acknowledge it's not who you are. And also that it's sort of transitive.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  It's not identity. It's temporary.

• 7:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay. So Howell Township, New Jersey. This is a suburb of New York City-ish?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Central Jersey, Jersey Shore.

• 7:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Jersey Shore.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Bruce Springsteen.

• 7:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay. And then recently we did-

• 7:44Speaker 01

  Yes, Charlie Puth.

• 7:45Dax Shepard?

  Charlie Puth.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  Yes, a claim to fame.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  We have a lot of Jersey boys and gals.

• 7:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. How far to New York from Howell Township?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Hour 15 with decent traffic.

• 7:59Dax Shepard?

  And how close to the Jersey Shore?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Oh, 10 minute drive.

• 8:04Dax Shepard?

  So did you grow up hanging around the boardwalk?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay. And was it similar to what I watched on MTV?

• 8:12Dax Shepard?

  There were a lot of Guidos with gold chains.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  There is a lot of that, but the problem that we had with, what was that show called?

• 8:18Dax Shepard?

  Jersey Shore.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Jersey Shore, right?

• 8:19Dax Shepard?

  Aptily named.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. The problem we had with that show was all the kids on that show, I think minus one, were all from Long Island.

• 8:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they were very Long Island-y. Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  But no, that is kind of the vibe. That's like a Seaside Heights kind of vibe, which I think is where that show was filmed. Depending on the beach you go to, you get a very different flavor, very different color.

• 8:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. What was your little clique in that world? What kind of dudes did you hang out with? I'm seven years older than you.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 8:47Dax Shepard?

  I think I have some idea of what was happening seven years behind me.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I was very fortunate. I just was back in New Jersey for a few weeks. I still have some of my best friends that I've truly been friends with since I was four years old.

• 9:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  So nice.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  It's incredible.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Life saving.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Yes, such a beautiful thing to be able to have those kind of friends still. And so we were kind of a mixture. There was some who were better at athletics. I eventually obviously get into acting, but everybody was very kind and supportive of one another. I had a very wholesome.

• 9:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. Okay, good. This isn't one I would have maybe took a guess at.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  I went hard left as soon as I went to college.

• 9:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  But before then, it was.

• 9:31Dax Shepard?

  A pretty nice and peaceful. Is your brother older or younger than you?

• 9:34Speaker 02

  My brother's younger, almost four years.

• 9:36Dax Shepard?

  Did he try to pale around like I tried to pale around with my brother?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  He did. He followed a lot. Bobby was like the natural athlete. My brother's six foot six.

• 9:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Star basketball player.

• 9:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Played football wide receiver. He was in a different mold.

• 9:49Dax Shepard?

  Who looked out for a hoof, isn't he?

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Well, Bobby would always say, even when he was bigger, he would say, I don't mess with Tommy because Tommy's crazy.

• 9:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 10:01Dax Shepard?

  That's a really vital thing. If you can claim crazy early in your life, it really saves you.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  What brand of crazy were you?

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Just the kind that if it's going to go there, I don't really care. We'll go all the way.

• 10:13Dax Shepard?

  When you're a boy and you get a sense that even if I win this fight, I'll be walking at some point. I'm going to get hit with a stick or shovel. When you assess that that guy is going to.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  But there's different types of crazy. There's like, they're gonna just verbally fight you on everything. They're going to get in physical fights. They're gonna jump off a roof for no reason. They're, you know, there's so many kinds of you guys.

• 10:35Dax Shepard?

  A lot of brands.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  A lot of brands.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  I think the root of it is just like a super sensitivity or a fear, not for maybe in that situation, but for me certainly.

• 10:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Speaker 02

  Was realizing with a certain amount of demonstration of anger, the energy. Would push everybody back and then you'd get some space. Yeah. So Bobby is the little brother. What did mom and dad do? Mom was a secretary bookkeeper and dad was kind of like a traveling salesman. Oh, of what variety? What did he sell? Filters for a while. Coffee filters. I have my coffee here with me. I never leave home without it. So definitely raised a son who's. What a niche thing to sell. How did he stumble into coffee filters? I don't know exactly. I just remember sometimes when I was really young, he would come back from overseas.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  I remember in particular a sweatshirt from New Amsterdam that I tried to wear every day. To be worldly. Isn't it wild the things that are so magic when you're.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  True.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  And they're tiny. I know. Yeah, yeah. And they mean so much.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  It is weird. So as you get older, it's like these little snapshots you have of these little things like that sweatshirt or this thing. It's like, why was it so powerful? You almost want to know.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Well, I think I know. It's like your dad was away. He thought of you.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  He got you something. That's what it means. You know, like, oh, my dad was out on his own. I mean, no one's thinking about that consciously, but that's what it means. It's like a connection to him.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  For sure. What was your relationship with him? We got closer when I got older. My parents got divorced when I was still pretty young. We still got to see my daddy coached my basketball team. God bless him. I played all the sports and I was terrible at all of them. But, you know, he's the coach and I'm the son and he had to play me. I was good at like fouling out.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  When I got older, we started to get closer. I think that when you sort of become a man or start to, the world takes on much more gray, less black and white. You start to understand a little bit. You start to get a taste a little bit of, you lose this sort of childish simplicity or naivete. And I think I can meet him there on a more even level. And we started to connect then. Unfortunately, he passed away when I was 25.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So fucking young. I know. Well, did he die of cancer? No, a heart attack. He passed away in his sleep. Were there signs of it? Was that a complete shocker or was he already struggling with heart disease? There was no signs, no warnings. He did not take the best care of himself. So I don't think he'd been to a doctor in years.

• 13:19Dax Shepard?

  Did he have any addiction stuff?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 13:23Dax Shepard?

  Who are we to judge?

• 13:26Dax Shepard?

  My dad, thank God, identified as an alcoholic and got sober. So it's very easy for me to say.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, yes, he liked to drink. He would never touch hard alcohol.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Only, only beer.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Oh, beer.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Not wine.

• 13:38Dax Shepard?

  It's New Jersey in the 90s. Man didn't drink wine.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  I don't know. He could have been cultured. He went to Amsterdam.

• 13:52Dax Shepard?

  God knows what he was doing in Amsterdam. Did you have step dads?

• 13:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 13:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, great. Good for you.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was my mom, really. Looking back now, being a father now, I always appreciated what she did, but like just looking back now, knowing even just having one kid and I have an amazing partner and we have help and all of that. My mom raised two boys, two wild animals on her own while she worked full time. I don't know where to put that in my head.

• 14:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  I really don't. I don't even understand how you do that.

• 14:23Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  How you do that. And even if you were somehow able to like white knuckle that, how it doesn't make you like twisted in some way. And it didn't.

• 14:32Dax Shepard?

  And I'm imagining too financial stress, right? It's not like you guys were rich or anything.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  My dad made sure that the money thing was fine. We were by no means rich or anything, but we also weren't in any kind of poverty and there was stress for sure, but it wasn't like the overwhelming theme of everything.

• 14:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I took my daughters, just me, a year ago, right now to Hawaii for spring break, the three of us. And day three of the trip, I called my mom and I was like, I don't know how you took the three of us on trips.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  And those are girls.

• 15:01Dax Shepard?

  And they're girls.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  To be fair, pretty put together girls.

• 15:04Dax Shepard?

  Not David and Dax, right. The fighting, because they're bickering and like after three days of it, I'm like, this is nuts. Why did I do this? I'm like, my mom took us on 20, 30 vacations in cars.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 15:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, just sitting in a car for 21 hours with three kids driving to Florida.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  I know. Would you ever take the tra- oh, I don't know if you would have been able to do that. We took the train down once to Disney World.

• 15:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you did?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Oh, magic.

• 15:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Well, it's just an overnight train ride. As a kid.

• 15:33Dax Shepard?

  Snap on it.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, recline the seat and there's a dining car.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  That's when I started reading Lord of the Rings. Weird, I haven't thought about this in so long. I wanted to read Lord of the Rings. I went to the library and I didn't understand the order. So I took out the second book first.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 15:50Dax Shepard?

  Great place to start.

• 15:51Speaker 02

  So I'm reading The Two Towers on the train down the. It's one of my happiest memories.

• 15:57Dax Shepard?

  Were you a reader?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Voracious. Later on in life, when I got into certain programs, they would call it alcoholic reading.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  You knew addiction?

• 16:07Speaker 02

  I loved reading from a young age, just huge books, getting lost in them. I don't think my mom understood that Stephen King is kind of like a low key pervert in his books. You know what I mean? It doesn't show up in the movies. So if you just know movies, he's like, oh, it's horror. But then you read the books, I'm like 11 years old, reading all these.

• 16:26Dax Shepard?

  My gateway into reading was Bukowski, so similar. I was just like, oh, yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because I didn't start reading until like high school. Did you read Bukowski when you were younger?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  I mean, when I was in college.

• 16:37Dax Shepard?

  That's what turned me on to reading. I was like, half these stories about this guy taking a shit or getting drunk or fucking some stranger or getting in a bar fight. And at 14, 15, I'm like, oh, this guy's a hero.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  How powerful books are, you became that. If you had read like Anne of Green Gables, you'd be so different.

• 16:56Dax Shepard?

  We wouldn't be sitting here.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  I read other books and I became it too.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  I guess we are who we are.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter.

• 17:02Dax Shepard?

  Some people are just destined to go somewhere. Were you an introvert or were you super social?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  I've heard the term extroverted introvert. Is that getting too cute?

• 17:12Dax Shepard?

  Ambivert, I think people are now saying.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Ambivert?

• 17:15Dax Shepard?

  I think that's the term.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Both.

• 17:16Dax Shepard?

  No, like you have periods of both. You can be extroverted and then you got to recharge.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Right. They say how you recharge is what you are. I definitely recharge alone. So I don't get energy from being around a ton of people, but I like being around people too.

• 17:30Dax Shepard?

  But I think Kaylee told us that when you guys met, you were living like in the woods in upstate New York or something.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:35Dax Shepard?

  Like you and a dog in the woods.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Halfway up a mountain on a dirt road.

• 17:39Dax Shepard?

  It feels very. Introvert. I would go crazy. I would have to figure out something social.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  I'm definitely an introvert, but I've also gotten more balanced in that I enjoy being around people.

• 17:50Dax Shepard?

  Is she a bit of a gateway for you for that?

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  She's so social.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  The total opposite of me in every way.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  That's so fun. What a good team.

• 17:58Speaker 02

  Well, I'll tell you, I never before in life understood what it actually meant to have a partner. What a powerful thing. And the more I receive from her, the more I see that she's sort of gone out of her way to either understand me or love me or both. The only response, and it's quite a naturally occurring response, is to want to reciprocate, to want to give it back. Like, how can I be better? Where can I understand you better and show up a little better? And you have that experience that this is wild.

• 18:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I was thinking a lot this morning, both times I've interviewed her, I'm like, this gal and Kristen, there is so much overlap in the Venn diagram. There's the obvious stuff. There's like this animal obsession and there's this kind of carefree spirit and things will work out and don't worry. A lot of that stuff. But what I think I really isolated this morning when I was mulling it over is Kristen has insane self-esteem and confidence. And the benefit of that self-esteem and confidence is kind of mind blowing. I could have never really anticipated what that was. And Kaylee strikes me as that same way.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 19:03Dax Shepard?

  She'll say what she wants to say. She's not overthinking who thinks what. She's just confident. That's a powerful thing in a partner, isn't it?

• 19:11Speaker 02

  No, it's a really powerful thing. When I was first around her, seeing how much she believed in herself and was just fully in her own body, in her own way, confident in what she was doing. There was times I was literally like, are you allowed to do that?

• 19:28Dax Shepard?

  Where are you going off?

• 19:30Speaker 02

  I'm like tearing myself apart and I'm questioning myself and doubting myself. And she's just like, this is who I am. This is how I do things and I have no problem with that. And I know what I am and I know what I'm not and I have no problem with that either. That was wild, you know, especially in the beginning of coming from a place of trying to heal this sense of like, how do I be all things all? People I've gotten over that a lot more recently.

• 19:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and we just had this expert on that was telling us about different attachment styles and like a secure attachment style. And I think when you're really insecure, you're worried the person you're with is going to leave you, or you're not worthy of them. And then so because you're afraid of that, you're looking for a lot of data to either confirm or deny that. So they're evaluating the relationship a lot. So maybe if Kaylee was insecure, it wouldn't be easy for her to be generous to you and benevolent the way she's been to you because she would think, well, I'm giving and he's not reciprocating. And does that mean this as opposed to like, I'm great and I'm gonna just pour it on you. I don't think that's a loss of my power or a loss of my leverage. Or I don't know, I just think there's so much that grows out of having a partner that's kind of confident.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. But I also think that over time, we've learned that she does have insecurities in other places and where I might be strong and secure. And that's kind of amazing, too, where you realize like, okay, we're actually kind of balanced here, even though it just shows up in different ways. So where I'm strong, I can help you and where you're strong, you can help me.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Those are the best.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  It's wild. By the time we met, I was 39 years old, I was almost 40 years old to go that long without really understanding what partnership could mean.

• 21:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  You know, I'm grateful.

• 21:09Dax Shepard?

  Where you fill in each other's gaps and you make each other better.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And as much as you've known who you are, how much do you feel like since the really knowing who you are that you've also changed?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  You've changed a ton.

• 21:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I've changed a ton.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  That's beautiful, though.

• 21:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  I feel like that's the real knowing who you are. When you know who you are on a deep enough level that you're allowing yourself to change versus this is who I am and then you're muscling your identity.

• 21:34Dax Shepard?

  I totally agree with you. And I think that's a faux belief in yourself. If you think you have to be rigid to protect this identity.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  It's actually comes from insecurity. If you're 100% attached to your like belief on anything, really, if you're just like, this is 100% what it is. And it's very black and white. That actually comes from insecurity because you're afraid, well, what happens if I change my mind on this? Like, who will I be?

• 21:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you'll be untethered.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Your identity, yeah, is at stake.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 22:01Dax Shepard?

  I also think like a strong partnership is very similar to the program, which is like, I'm not good at you telling me what to do. I always buck against that. I'm terrible at it. Asking for mentorship or advice, but if I can watch you navigate a situation and you're sharing about it, and I can just be over here watching and I go, oh yeah, I have that same character defect. You did what? Oh, and what was the outcome? If I can observe you, I can grow and learn a lot. I do best if I'm just allowed to observe you. So yeah, to observe Kristen moving through life for the last 19 years, doing it completely different than me, and then getting these different results. I think that's helped me enormously grow towards those things.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, almost like learning or taking advice through the attraction of like a good example versus somebody sitting you down and.

• 22:50Dax Shepard?

  Telling me what to do. Cause my insecurities go like, well, I should know that already. And now I'm going to act like I do know it.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Nobody likes being told about that.

• 22:58Dax Shepard?

  I don't know. I see people like, well, do you like being directed? I feel like you would.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Oh, that depends.

• 23:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Yeah. Tell me.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  If the director's good.

• 23:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, Fincher's directing you.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  Fincher brings out the yes, sir. You know, he brings out the bring it on. I'll do anything you say. I'll run through the wall for you. All that stuff. And there's a lot of different ways that directors can be beautiful and really good at what they do. I was having this conversation the other day, but I think ultimately, well, for anybody probably in all things, but certainly when it comes to what we do is, is that person themselves? Do they know who and what they are? And are they coming from that place? Meaning David would direct how David's going to direct. And Jeremiah, who I just worked with on task, will direct how Jeremiah is going to direct. And Jeremiah is just this sweet angel, human being. What a show.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Just beaming love and this gentle kind of very whispery, but they are both who they are and their power comes from being in how they are and not trying to do what somebody else would do. Yes.

• 24:04Dax Shepard?

  They know their point of view and they have one.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, probably just in life in general, but when you really encounter that in somebody, you sort of know it on the level of like intuition. Yeah. And then you respond to it. It feels very safe. There's nothing that's coming from them that feels like a lie or a.

• 24:20Dax Shepard?

  Insecurity being revealed.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's so true.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Very true.

• 24:25Dax Shepard?

  When did you want to start acting? I know you went to Rutgers.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  I had a high school teacher that changed my life.

• 24:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 24:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. Steve Kazakov. I auditioned for the play. I couldn't sing or dance, got a little chorus part. And he came in and he was genuinely scarier than the football coaches.

• 24:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And it was like.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Feeling like, who's this?

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Who is this guy? But he took it dead serious.

• 24:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, good for him. At a high school, yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  What a gift. And he spoke to all of us like we were paid professionals. It was incredible. I think if I hadn't had that experience, I don't know if I would have done it because what that experience gives you is an insane work ethic. If what you're doing is very important, he also drilled into us, you are a part of something greater. So even if you were the lead in the play, you didn't have to rehearse that day, you stayed and helped build the sets. There wasn't a question about that. And so it builds the sense of we're all here to do something that's bigger than any one of us could do by ourselves. And you're a team and you support everybody else on the team.

• 25:29Dax Shepard?

  That's lovely.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  It's so good.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Incredible.

• 25:31Dax Shepard?

  You loved it. I heard you talking with somebody about how all in you were in that the school was eight to six. You were also in two different other theater groups. You were doing shit at night.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Class until six and then there'd be a main stage show and then you'd work on that from seven to 11. You'd either act in the show or you were running some part of the backstage to learn how to do that. And then from 11 PM to 1 AM, we had two different black box theaters. And at that time, they would give us access to them. So whatever we wanted to do, we could, and we never were not doing something from 11 to 1 AM. So we'd write our own plays, we'd direct them, we'd cast them with our friends, we'd hang the lights, we'd make the music cues. And we'd rehearse them for a month or so, and then we would put on the show on a weekend that we didn't have the main stage show. So we were constantly layers in of working on multiple things simultaneously.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  And also learning how to do everything ourselves.

• 26:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and never getting fatigued, just being energized by the whole thing.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Ever. The things I could get away with back then when I was 20 years old, I mean, it's like wild.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  What school was it?

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Rutgers.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 26:44Dax Shepard?

  Until today, I didn't even know Rutgers was New Jersey State University.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:49Dax Shepard?

  I just.

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Thought it was a private.

• 26:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I guess I thought, I mean, it's got a real prestige to it.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  It does, it does.

• 26:55Dax Shepard?

  Rutgers.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Does it?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it's not New Jersey University.

• 26:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's Michigan State.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Which is pretty cool.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Pretty rare.

• 27:03Dax Shepard?

  It's very rare for a state university to have a name aside from Colorado State, right?

• 27:09Speaker 02

  I never thought about that.

• 27:10Dax Shepard?

  I think, I can't think of any other ones.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I know, same.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:13Dax Shepard?

  I was like, oh, Rutgers must be like a private.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Is Tulane?

• 27:17Dax Shepard?

  Tulane.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  Tulane's probably private, actually.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 27:20Dax Shepard?

  It was just there and I should know that.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you should know that.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 27:24Dax Shepard?

  Nicotine? Would you like some?

• 27:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 27:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 27:28Dax Shepard?

  Those are for spray if you prefer. Lozenges and.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Did you ever smoke?

• 27:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, like a motherfucker.

• 27:34Speaker 02

  And you quit?

• 27:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, 20 years ago, 21 years ago.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I have two cigarettes at night.

• 27:38Dax Shepard?

  Good for you.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Oh, nice.

• 27:40Dax Shepard?

  That's my dream. Wouldn't you agree as someone who used to drink? The dream is two Jack and Diet tonight. If I could do that, that would be.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  I know that I'm bored of us because you even say that and I get a knot in my stomach.

• 27:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, exactly. It was like panic.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Because in that regard, I could never imagine. It's funny now, like in retrospect, but when I would be drinking, it used to like pain me and genuinely confuse me. Be out with somebody drinking at a bar or whatever, and somebody would like leave half their. I used to always be like, what?

• 28:11Dax Shepard?

  It was as crazy to me as someone trying to eat their food anally. Like, what do you? Why did you order it? What? The medicine's still in there, like what?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  No, exactly. What are we doing here? Is there not a purpose in what we're doing here?

• 28:25Dax Shepard?

  We're trying to get obliterated.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:28Dax Shepard?

  And that's the solution. You can't leave half of it. No, that was maddening. And then having that debate in your head, like, am I gonna be a scumbag and say like, are you gonna finish that? Which I ultimately always would.

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 28:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you want us not to leave this?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:41Dax Shepard?

  I didn't care what the fuck they ordered.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 28:45Dax Shepard?

  Can't be left. I said this last night, my family and I have discovered this taco place on the street with hard shell tacos. And we'd like them so much. As I'm eating them, I'm panicked, you know? And I got six last night. Halfway through, I was like, not enough. I didn't get enough. And then other people ordered some and there was one person left one. And I was like, is that gonna go? I go, dude, this is just like cocaine, which is I stopped doing cocaine when there's no cocaine.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:07Dax Shepard?

  Not, I'll stop now. And these tacos, there would never be a taco left on the table. I don't care how many were ordered. I will have them till they're gone.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  Even though they're never gone.

• 29:18Dax Shepard?

  Well, they were gone.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  You can get them again tomorrow, the next, literally anytime you want, you can get those tacos.

• 29:27Dax Shepard?

  Addiction is scarcity.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  I mean, I drink a lot. Well, frequency, I drink a lot, but I'm always leaving half. Sometimes I drink half a martini and I'm like, you know what? I want wine now and then I'll leave that. I'll drink some of the wine. For me, it's just so social. I mean, you want a little buzz, obviously.

• 29:43Dax Shepard?

  Let's be real here.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but obliteration is not the goal.

• 29:47Speaker 02

  That sort of gives you an insight into the mental illness of it because as we're saying this, I know at the time I thought you were the one who had a problem.

• 29:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  And I really did. I'm not trying to be funny.

• 30:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, nobody even doing this.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  Like.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Why are you doing this?

• 30:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Like, are you doing this for a show? Just don't drink at all.

• 30:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:07Dax Shepard?

  Knock it off. You're not taking this seriously.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Interesting. I kind of agree that there is something weird about that too. Like, well, if you're just gonna have a little bit, why do you need it? I get that.

• 30:19Dax Shepard?

  The rationale.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  I get that too. Yeah.

• 30:21Dax Shepard?

  The other thing I think you can quickly tell how people are is I'll watch a movie like Leaving Las Vegas. And I go, yeah, man, that looks so good. I mean, most people, non-addicts are watching it going, that looks terrible.

• 30:34Speaker 01

  Scary.

• 30:35Dax Shepard?

  And I'm watching going like, yeah, man, to finally throw in the towel and just go like, I'm going all the way and I'm not gonna look back. Weirdly is still appealing. I mean, I'm not gonna do it, but I watch it and I can remember just finally going, I don't give a fuck. I mean, so much of the addiction, I think, at least for me, was like medicating this mountain I had on my shoulders. Like, I gotta accomplish this and I gotta accomplish that. And I'm like, don't become this. I'm a fucking loser. And when I would just surrender to a three day bender, I was letting that go.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 31:04Dax Shepard?

  I was like, okay, we're not gonna be a fucking star. We're not gonna be a published author. We're not gonna be a good boyfriend. Drive responsibly. We're just gonna be a piece of shit and I'm gonna let go of this battle. And there's a lot of relief in that.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  And where have you found your relief? Where do you find it now?

• 31:24Dax Shepard?

  First of all, I don't have it as much. I have children, right? You know, now for three years, anything we thought that was important is a fucking joke.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  I know.

• 31:32Dax Shepard?

  Your movie works or doesn't, or your show's good or bad.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 31:36Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, you know, it doesn't matter anymore, which is liberating. But even before that, years of sobriety and just having a partner and building other aspects of my life that weren't me trying to be spectacular were relief from that. Can you relate to that pressure?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Of course. And I had to give that up over time in sobriety, realizing that that was just as detrimental as the drinking was truly, because it becomes like, who am I? And if this is my identity, if this is how I'm evaluating myself, then I'm always gonna fall short. Be careful what game you're playing, because depending on the game, there is no way to win. There is no top. And even if you get to the top, you can't stay there.

• 32:14Dax Shepard?

  You have to sustain now the top, which is even harder, probably.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  Genuinely, I would imagine so. Just seeing how it goes sometimes where you do something and it's good and it comes out at the right time and you sort of whoosh and it goes up. You're like, that's a wild confluence of many things happening at exactly the right time, coupled with we did a good enough job and boom, it kind of takes off. You're like, there's no way to control that.

• 32:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You can't even replicate it.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  If we could, people would do it all the time. Clearly, we can't. You have an industry with a bunch of people trying to figure out how to do it and they can't do it with any consistency. So it is out of your control.

• 32:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  Right? And then you are powerless. And then for me, it was like, okay, well, then what is the identity that I want to build my house on? Because for years, it was actor, actor, actor. And then, of course, not succeeding. And even if you were succeeding, it wasn't succeeding enough. How are you anything but a failure? If that's the identity, it was just constant failure or less of a failure, more of a failure, whatever. It's insanity.

• 33:17Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on. So frustrating. 15 minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

• 33:52Speaker 03

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• 34:22Speaker 04

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• 34:58Dax Shepard?

  And look, I've only gotten to the top of one mountain and it was this one. And the second you get there, there is 10 minutes of elation. And then you go like, oh right, there's only now one.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Trajectory.

• 35:08Dax Shepard?

  There's only one movement left. It's down. And that is almost way scarier than the other thing, than the climbing.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:17Dax Shepard?

  Well, this is mine to lose now. Oh, fuck.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:20Dax Shepard?

  New round of, I wasn't prepared for this. I thought I was gonna get here and just feel fucking carefree all the time. No, now I just know I have something to lose.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  And I think that's where, when you can start to visualize or see these things, not as concepts, but as the real energy that drives you through your life and decide, do I want to play that? No, that's not where I want to build my house. That's not what I'm putting on the altar. So I will play that, but it won't mean identity.

• 35:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  It won't mean who I am. It will not mean my value. I'll do it. Weirdly, then you can do it with more freedom.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Right?

• 35:58Dax Shepard?

  Such a mind fuck.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  It is. I became a million times better actor when I decided I am done identifying myself with being an actor.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't think telling people, I mean, we have to tell them and it's good, but you have to get there on your own.

• 36:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you can't sidestep it.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  I don't think you can hear and be like, oh, okay. I just won't care. You care.

• 36:21Dax Shepard?

  It's a hard trick.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  It's hard.

• 36:23Dax Shepard?

  It's a hard mental trick. Back to the kid things, like you receive all this love, they have no clue whether you were good or bad on tasks. They don't know what HBO is. It doesn't mean anything. And you're experiencing this love because you're you and you're available and you're connected and present. That's all it takes to be worthy of love.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  I know.

• 36:45Dax Shepard?

  It's nuts, right?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  I'm a crybaby too. Oh, yeah.

• 36:50Dax Shepard?

  I'm on a birth. Crying face too. Let's let it rip.

• 36:55Dax Shepard?

  It's so good.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  It is the gift of getting to be a father, to finally understand what unconditional love is both ways. Like, here we go. But there's nothing she could ever do where I wouldn't love her with all of my being.

• 37:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And there's no accomplishment that would make you love her more.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Amen, brother. And I also know, like you said, the feeling when I walk into the room and she is excited to see me. She does not give a fuck about anything I did or not do.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  She just wants you to be there.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  He's here.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  He's here.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Presence, that's it.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  Man, what a beautiful gift.

• 37:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  I don't have kids, so I wish people would be able to have that without it. I mean, that's the goal, right? The kids are the reason you're able to feel it, but we should all be feeling like that. Our presence is enough to be loved and worthy.

• 37:46Dax Shepard?

  I do too, but there is a certain reality of the marketplace of friendship and partnership, right? It's like people shop in their. Echelon, jocks are friends with jocks, burnouts are friends with burnouts. Like, so to deny that all this stuff is real is also not true. It's like, status is a real thing. People are attracted to people who other people are attracted to. All these things are real, but the real relationships, the ones with your family, the ones with my childhood friend, he doesn't like me more now that I've gotten successful.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:16Dax Shepard?

  Maybe he lies.

• 38:19Dax Shepard?

  I'm distracted, but those ones are the ones you kind of gotta foster have. Because the other place is a bit of a marketplace. Does that make sense what I'm saying?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I see what you mean, but I guess I'm saying more in the general sense, not like love from a specific person. It's like, I'm someone worthy of love, walking around, not to get someone's approval, but just like walking around on earth, like, yeah, I'm a person, so I'm worthy of this.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Kids give you that.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  But we all should have that. It's hard, though.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  We all have it inherently, and I think we forget it, and I think we don't show it to each other.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Especially nowadays. It's the worst timing for that, I feel like.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting, because what I experienced with Matilda, my daughter, makes me, and maybe this is the way my brain works, but you probably think it too. I immediately start applying it out. I start thinking like, that's someone's daughter.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  That's someone's son. Once you know that, and then you see the ripples, you're like, well, if this is me and her, then how sacred this is applies to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I love that. I don't think everyone's doing that. I mean, maybe they are.

• 39:28Dax Shepard?

  Tricks, look, I don't start with great intentions, and I don't start with love and kindness and benevolence. So I have tricks, like, that's one, like, yeah, that's someone's kid. A kid's being annoying, you see it all the time. Kids are on other kids. One kid's a fight, and then you just go like, I know what the dad feels like. That's the most special little girl in the world.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 39:46Dax Shepard?

  She's picking her nose, she shit her pants, and she just had someone. And if that's my daughter, I'm like, fuck, yeah, girl. You know, my other hack is this is so indulgent, but armchairs are the nicest fucking human beings. Monica constantly do this. People listen to the show are just across the board. The nicest fucking people. We've met so many of them that if I'm in traffic and I'm getting mad, I have to go like, I imagine that's an armcherry. And I just completely immediately dropped the whole thing. But I need tricks, unfortunately. It's not my nature to be like, yeah, this guy's got good intentions. Let's give him a shot.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  My nature either, brother. Yeah, that's the thing is we have to work on all this like left to your own just natural devices. It doesn't usually turn out the most beneficial for all involved.

• 40:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we're trying to get ours and protect ourselves and all those things.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Trying to not do that. That's just the only thing we can do is try not to. And then you can, if you're like, you know what? I want to try to see this in a better light than you can.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, the part of the miracle is even being aware of what you're doing in the first place. Goes back to that Eckhart Tolle book, reading that and him saying that over half the battle is won the second you're aware that there's even something happening, that there's even something to change, that there's even something you don't like, that there's even something you're battling. Because at least I can relate. When I was drinking and stuff, I could make jokes about, oh, I'm an alcoholic. I didn't understand until I understood. And once I understood, it changed. I didn't really understand until I understood. And that sounds silly. It even sounded silly to me. Three weeks sober, looking back being like, how is this a revelation to you? This is so obvious.

• 41:27Dax Shepard?

  I'm dying to know if we have the same experience. So my understanding is what you probably drank through college and it was fun. You're successful. Yeah. Then you got on the soap and you got two daytime Emmys. That was two years out of college.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  Right out of college.

• 41:42Dax Shepard?

  Where were we at ego wise? I have two different thoughts. One would be like, if I was 20, I was making money, fucking doing this and you were nominating me, I would be on fire. But also, I wasn't a thespian from high school who went to college. And I don't know if you had some like, I need to be doing Broadway. I'm not sure. What was that part like?

• 41:58Speaker 02

  I did have that. I had the, I want to be doing Broadway and blah, blah. But I also thought that I was fantastic and I was being shown all the evidence of how great I was and that the world would be rolling out the red carpet. When I left the soap, the great shock to my ego, leaving the soap and everyone didn't have a red carpet rolled out. You didn't have 80 scripts lined up being offered to you. They didn't bring a pallet over of offers. Not only did I not have 80 scripts being offered, but the thing that I was desperately trying to get, I couldn't even get. Do you remember what actor you wanted to be at that moment? Who was your idol?

• 42:32Speaker 02

  At that point, Sean Penn. Yeah. I mean, Jack Nicholson's always been my favorite. He'll always be my favorite. He's a Jersey boy. Grew up 15 minutes from where I grew up. I mean, he's the guy. Talk about a dude who knows himself. Oh, man. More than any other actor, I think I always watch him with a bit of a smile on my face. Like, it just makes me happy to watch him do almost anything. Couldn't agree more. No, at that time, though, it would have been Sean Penn. Like, Sean Penn in college, that was like actor's actor. Wanted to know everything about Sean Penn. Look at Sean Penn in Mystic River and then watch Milk. Even some of the best actors, there's like an essence and that essence to me permeates what they do, almost regardless of what

• 43:15Speaker 02

  they're doing. Even if they do two things that are equally amazing and genius, there's a similarity in essence. Sean Penn doing Mystic River and then Sean Penn in Milk, I'm like, that's not the same human being. Where's the vibration that like, even if I close my eyes and my ears somehow, I can feel Daniel Day Lewis is in the room. You can kind of feel that about Sean Penn, too. And then he does something that's like a bit of a sweet and low down. You're like, wow, he like changed his own rhythm.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Can I tell you something? You have that.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  You really have that. I was watching Task. I was like, that's that guy? Like, it was shocking. Such a transformation.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:55Dax Shepard?

  You've hit the mark you were going for. Okay. So you wanted to be Sean Penn, but you're getting all this love. It has to be related. It coincides as well. That ends right when your dad dies too. These have to be a kind of a confluence of.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was actually wild timing. And this is why sometimes real stories are stranger than fiction in the sense of come off the soap and just really crash into the brick wall. The drinking was always kind of out of control, but I always had structure. I realized, looking back, I'd had structure straight through high school, college, college, only a few months off into the soap. Now, the soap, I never missed a day. I was never unprepared, regardless of how insane I was. So the soap was amazing structure. It's five days a week.

• 44:37Dax Shepard?

  It's like the hardest job in acting, right?

• 44:39Speaker 02

  It's labor intensive for sure.

• 44:40Dax Shepard?

  You're doing like 20 pages a day or?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:42Dax Shepard?

  30 pages a day. For the audience, you're doing four pages a day on a normal show.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  The soap itself is filming 60 pages a day or 50 because commercial break. So you're doing an hour of television every single day.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  It's crazy.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Every single day.

• 44:56Dax Shepard?

  Love it. It's impossible.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  It's intense. Unless the light fell on your head, you're getting one take. You know what I mean? There's just literally not enough time.

• 45:05Dax Shepard?

  If they have a different angle on someone else, maybe they'll keep the take. Where you got hit in the head with.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and they can because they have three cameras. At least back then, proscenium style, three cameras and they're live editing in the booth. So out of the corner of your eye, you could see if camera one, the red light comes on, you know, now it's on you and all that kind of stuff.

• 45:20Dax Shepard?

  I feel like this is incredible training in so many ways.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  It's amazing. I'd never been in front of a camera before.

• 45:25Dax Shepard?

  The technical aspect of the job, which is hard to pick up if you've only done theater and stuff. Also just memorizing fucking dialogue, right? You're doing 20 pages a day or something?

• 45:33Speaker 02

  A total muscle because when I first got there, it took me two weeks to learn 10 pages. And by the end, just as like a bet, we would do these character episodes where our character would be in the entire episode. So again, 55 pages, whatever. When it got time to be mine, they were like, do you want to do it in one day? I said, yes, and I did.

• 45:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  And I knew what I was doing, but that's a crazy muscle. But you can exercise it. It is wild though, isn't it? How much your brain will adapt and morph into where you need it to be strong.

• 46:02Dax Shepard?

  It's shocking. Okay. So.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  All that's going on. So all that's going on. So I get out of the soap. The red carpet isn't rolled out. It's also suddenly the structure gets pulled, which at the time I wasn't thinking like, oh, I've had structure. Now I'm going into no structure. Completely unprepared for no structure. This is why all the retired athletes get depressed. They've had this structure for their whole life. Totally. So everything goes off the rails, devastated, depression. This sounds so self indulgent, but it's just the truth. This is how I felt. And then about a year of that, and then my dad dies. That really rocked me. I hadn't known anyone who had died that was close to me, who wasn't very, very old before my dad. And again, it was a surprise and he's my father.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  And that sadness,

• 46:52Speaker 02

  I realized like, oh, what was I being sad about before? Right. You almost felt shame. Shame, but also it just like shocked me into like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, there's real things, you know? Oh my gosh, but that, that experience was wild and something that no one had talked about before, or at least I hadn't paid attention to or read about or anything. But my dad died, there was grief, but there was just also like this terrible fear. I just felt like I was on the edge of the abyss. Like it brought my own mortality, everything rushing at me in a way. It was also this realization that unfortunately, probably too many people have this realization much younger than I was,

• 47:36Speaker 02

  but that nothing is guaranteed. And whatever you think is there for sure, that makes you feel safe, it's not. Like the anvil of impermanence hit you. Yes. I was not in any place mentally, spiritually, physically to grapple with or to understand or to have a practice round. And it really rocked me. What year did you get sober? October 1st, 2013. It was six years later, give or take. What was your trajectory? It was like a slow burn. I hadn't worked in over a year. I was in. A considerable amount of debt, broke, worried about not being able to pay my rent, all the things. The last thing I was hanging my hat on ego wise was a relationship I had with

• 48:19Speaker 02

  a woman who was very successful and beautiful and like, well, she chose me. I bullied myself quite a bit that way, too. That's what we're doing before we know how to do anything else is just like, where is my value? Uh, there, uh, there. Cause those are all falling away now, but that ended. And then I just remember being in my apartment in Brooklyn at the time and just being so crushed, felt so worthless. And you know, at that time, I didn't realize what it was until later, but I can articulate it now, just like the constant level of this fear, anxiety, shame, guilt. It's like a buzzing constant. How do you boil the frog slowly? That buzzing builds slowly over time. You don't realize how deafening it had become until you're freed of it, hopefully freed

• 49:03Speaker 02

  of it. So you're just in this constant state of this anxiety, almost paralysis, fear. It's this drunken.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  And you think that's normal?

• 49:11Speaker 02

  Absolutely. That's part of the problem. Again, the awareness of it, like you just think that's normal because that's the way you've been slowly living more and more and more like out of the blue in my apartment in Brooklyn, still to this day, don't fully understand this, into my brain, read the power of now. Where'd that come from? Uh huh. Yeah. But I was like, okay, I knew I had to do it. I'm going to do that, but I don't know where that came from.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  You're.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Very strange. And thank God. Yeah. This is before your phone could have heard you.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  True, no algorithm.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't even have a smartphone. The universe smartphone. Yeah. So I go, I go get the book. I literally read the first four pages and no exaggeration, I throw the book across the room, rage. Why? Well, I didn't know exactly why, but I went on online, is Eckhart Tolle insane? And of course he's like the one person you can't find any evidence.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  I've been being saying, my buddy Rhett, I called him, I got his voicemail. I said, Joe, bro, do you know anything about this motherfucking Eckhart Tolle? Like, is he supposed to be insane?

• 50:19Dax Shepard?

  And for a week, I wouldn't touch that. I never left that zone. I read the first four pages of that book. And I go, oh, it's another guy claiming to have another otherworldly experience that I'll never have. And now he's going to share the truth with me that only he received from the heavens. It's fucking religion. It's the same old fucking thing and fuck this guy. And I never went back and I never called a friend.

• 50:41Dax Shepard?

  Isn't he sitting on a bench somewhere? Baby, I'm gonna bring you a copy of the book.

• 50:48Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, oh, this guy's a prophet. And another guy who received some metaphysical signal.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  You do that here all the time.

• 50:56Dax Shepard?

  Tell me.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  You're not on a bench. You're not saying it came to you via the clouds. But you are on here talking about your experience and lessons you've learned through your experience. And not everyone else has had.

• 51:10Dax Shepard?

  Right. True.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  That we hope people will hear and take and live by.

• 51:15Dax Shepard?

  Great point. My delineation is his was otherworldly. You're right. You're dead right. And this dumb little distinction I'm making is his was otherworldly.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  But to some people, yours is otherworldly. They're like, I don't know what that's like. I don't know what those experiences are like.

• 51:33Dax Shepard?

  Very fair criticism, Monica.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  I'm just saying.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  It is a really interesting take and that's a good point. No, I know. I know. Well, for me, okay.

• 51:42Dax Shepard?

  You got there.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  As crazy as I was and am, after a week, I was like, bro, you're gonna throw a book across the room. You need to read that book. I literally threw it, by the way. So I was like, why is that making you so angry? Well, this is what I realized later, but then I started reading the book again and I realized very quickly. What triggered me was everything he said was the truth. And that meant everything I was doing. Was wrong and I don't like that.

• 52:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. I still don't like that.

• 52:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  But it was painful. It was just too much. Why did I throw the book? Because the higher me knew in that moment that reading that book meant my life would change forever.

• 52:27Dax Shepard?

  You were gonna have to change.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  I didn't want it.

• 52:29Dax Shepard?

  And it was gonna be uncomfortable and you're gonna have to grow.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I think on some level, we all understand that being fully, truly exposed to the truth, things are gonna change and that sickness in us, that thing in me, as miserable as I was, is like, uh-uh. We don't wanna change.

• 52:46Dax Shepard?

  Bad enough.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Things like this.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  Bad enough. I'm not gonna change.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  It's hard to change. It's scary. I think how terrifying it is to change needs to be given more prominence to understand why it is difficult for people to do. I think that gets downplayed on a level because I like to talk in big language sometimes because I think these things are big and the feelings with them are big. And if we use small language, we kind of downplay it. But I think when we change, when we make a big change especially, you die and you are reborn. Because the you, the me that was drinking on that day, did die. It's terrifying.

• 53:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  The terror is, well, then who am I? Exactly. The terror was, what am I gonna do on Thanksgiving? What am I gonna do on Christmas? How am I ever gonna go on a date again? What is a vacation?

• 53:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  What is a celebration?

• 53:35Dax Shepard?

  How am I gonna last longer than one minute in the sack if I don't have three beers in me?

• 53:41Dax Shepard?

  I'll never fuck again, I guess.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Bro, I never thought I'd do anything again. Are your friendships real? How am I gonna watch football? Yeah. Are any of my friends gonna wanna hang out with me? What am I gonna do with my friends if they do hang out with me? Yeah, I know.

• 53:53Dax Shepard?

  It's your whole life at that point.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Everything, because it has permeated, it has got its tentacles in every single thing. How am I gonna go see a play without a flask in my pocket? All the things. How am I gonna grieve? How am I gonna mourn? How am I gonna celebrate? Yeah. Celebrate was huge for me. That was more of a trigger than almost anything.

• 54:11Dax Shepard?

  I'd get a job when I was sober. What do I do? I go, I'm gonna eat two pizzas. That became my, like, we're gonna get fucked up.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:18Dax Shepard?

  It's gonna be on pizza.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:20Dax Shepard?

  I remember going on vacation with my girlfriend, first year of sobriety. It had been going well. It was the first time I had made it past three months and I was like, coming up on a year, or maybe I had a year, and we showed up in Mexico. And I was like, oh no, I have not taken a vacation in 12 years.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 54:38Dax Shepard?

  Where step one isn't drop your bag in the room, go get a drink and then everything unfolds.

• 54:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 54:43Dax Shepard?

  Drop my bag and do what?

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Dax Shepard?

  I want to go home, I think.

• 54:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, why am I paying for this?

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. What did you do?

• 54:51Dax Shepard?

  I sat at the pool and stared at people so fucking judgmental. I'm like, looking at this one guy and he's just a slob and unkempt. And I was like, this motherfucker can control his drinking and I can't? This guy can drink by the pool. Like I hated this guy. I just white knuckled it. The hotel fucking Diet Coke was 12 bucks, but when we got into the room, they had given us like a fifth of tequila that they brewed there. I'm like, oh, of course the fifth's fucking free and a Diet Coke's 12. I was just like, I was gonna explode. I couldn't get off that vacation quick enough. Now I love vacation. Boy, it took a minute.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  No, I can relate to that.

• 55:21Dax Shepard?

  So you read Power Now, which by the way, my father was obsessed with Power Now. That might be in the mix too for me.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 55:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he wore for the last 12 years of his life, he had a little charm on his gold necklace that was now the clock, the now clock.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:35Dax Shepard?

  He was obsessed with it.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 55:37Dax Shepard?

  But you read that, how does that lead to then sobriety?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  I read that over the course of like a month and a half, I would go down to McGorlick Park in Brooklyn. Every evening, I wasn't working at the time. I had plenty of time on my head. It was me and my dog, so we had plenty of time. Go down when the sun was setting and just read part of the book, kind of watch the sun through the trees and sit and breathe. And wasn't exactly meditating because I didn't know how, but just kind of being there and feeling the stillness. And then this dawning awareness of like, oh, this feels really good. Everything he's saying is true. Every part of my body is responding to what he's saying in a way that's like beyond my intellect. Doing yoga on these days, eating better, then have plans.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  I don't even want to go, go, drink three days. I can't even touch the book. I don't go to the park. I don't do yoga. I don't eat well. Over the course of a month and a half, again, so much of his book is about awareness, being present so you can be aware. The awareness is dawning like, whoa, what happens when I drink is very shocking. It's like vibrating out beyond the drinking itself. It's really like kind of damaging everything. And now I can see it. And then I was walking in on audition one day in the city and it felt like I got struck in the head with a lightning bolt. And again, this sounds comedic. I guess it is comedic, but just, oh, I have a drinking problem.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  Even though you had been saying to all your friends you're drunk. These are strange truths that we might only be able to understand. And how did you know to go to a meeting? My experience with that was a little bit different as well. It took me a long time, really. I mean, I went to a meeting early on, but it took me a long time to really understand even what the meetings were. With Eckhart and he was using teachings from the Bible of Jesus, I had a relationship with Jesus, what he was, what I felt like he was when I was a kid that had gone away. And so my sobriety was really in that. The obsession was relieved instantly and it was a God thing. It was a spiritual thing. It was a Jesus thing.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And then I went to meetings and I was confused. I didn't know if I was supposed to be there. I felt really guilty because I heard people really struggling in the beginning. And I was a mess and I had a ton of work to do and I'm still doing it. Like I'm not saying that. Stop taking the medicine. But I never wanted to drink again ever after that. It was just like boom. Were you into drugs as well or just drink? I'd take it or leave it. If it was there, I would do it. If it wasn't, I didn't care for the most part. So for me, it was God first and then eventually program was like, oh. I literally didn't understand what it was at first. I thought it was only for people who were scared they were going to drink. And then I'm like, well, then I'm not supposed to go.

• 58:25Speaker 02

  You know, eventually I met some guys that were like, we're not thinking we're going to drink. It's a program for a living. What do you do? And they're like, we're crazy. And I was like, oh, I'm fucking crazy too.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Non crazy people don't go this route. I know. And then I got to see how beautiful it was. I actually think that entire program is perfect. It feels like divinely inspired, those steps. I can't think of a better, more perfect expression of living a spiritual life, like keeping yourself good and strong and useful. And it's so beautiful.

• 59:03Dax Shepard?

  Do you have a favorite step or couple?

• 59:06Speaker 02

  It was also interesting finally going and really understanding what the steps were. I didn't have a sponsor and work the steps until I was seven or eight years sober, but I understood them long before then. But was noticing just through my own experience, looking back on the steps being like, wow, I did a lot of those things, not thoroughly, not perfectly, but spontaneously, even without the program, just after a month or two of sobriety, just thinking and being like, I need to call this person and say, I'm really sorry, that wasn't the best version of me. I let you down. I can't imagine how difficult that was. And kind of naturally just wanting to do that, which to me is the greatest testimony to what the steps are that I could give, which is like, there is something so deeply real about that process.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Those steps are just an articulation of something that is deeper. Like it's coming from a deeper place and we're just gonna name what it is and like how to do it. I think all of the steps rests upon the steps that come before. Obviously, the first one is that lightning bolt moment I had. But then for me, two and three were the most important ones I ever did and they're kind of joined.

• 1:00:13Dax Shepard?

  That makes sense, given your ease and comfort with religion or Jesus. It explains to like, that's hard for me.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:22Dax Shepard?

  So it makes sense that that that part of Eckhart's story didn't bother you. And that was the thing I got hung up on. If anything ever took me out of the program, it was the higher power stuff, hard for me.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  What is two and three?

• 1:00:33Dax Shepard?

  Came to believe in a power greater than ourselves, turned our life and our will over to that power.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Came to believe that we could be restored to sanity by a power greater than ourselves, right?

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, man, what you're saying right now, I understand completely and fully. I totally get it. And like, that always breaks my heart. Because as a kid, that feeling that I have that I'm describing, I hated church. It was very confusing for me, even as a young person to like, try and separate out the religion from what I felt like I was experiencing and or reading. Again, voracious reader, I love to read my Bible too. I didn't even grow up in a very religious household. I just liked it. So hearing you say that, and I understand there's a million reasons why, and I've heard so many people say that. I totally get it. And then you wish like having sponsors of these, whatever.

• 1:01:17Dax Shepard?

  Like you want someone to have a kid and experience it.

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  You just want it because you're like, it made it easier.

• 1:01:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:23Speaker 02

  That's all. And then like trying to help other people and they don't even want to say any of those words. And I get it and I don't need to. We don't need to talk like that. We just talk however we want to talk. But then you're like, boy, I wish I could give you even a taste of it, even if we called it something else. Cause it will help you.

• 1:01:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes. Now, mind you, I do the things, right? Like every morning I do my first three steps. I do the prayers and I do the 10 step. I do them all because they cost me nothing and I'd rather do this thing than die drinking in the morning. You know, so it's like, it's very easy for me to cooperate. But for me, the four step is the thing I think that changed my life entirely. That to me, if there was a single step that they should teach in fucking elementary. It's this notion of making a list of all the people that you have resentments against. Why do you have resentments against them? What are they threatening? Cause in your mind, you don't see any pattern. But if you have to write out your four step and you look at that column, that third column and you go, oh my God,

• 1:02:21Dax Shepard?

  all of my issues in life are being driven by three of my fears. It's not like I have 50 fears. It's like, I hate Margaret and I hated my teacher. I hated my stepdad. It all threatens one of the same three things. Like my whole life is being governed by three things I'm afraid of. So I can either try to control seven billion people to act in accordance to not trigger those three fears. Or I can get to work on those three fears and be relieved of all this. That's absolutely proprietary novel crazy special.

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know that there was many times in life I was more terrified than when I went to do my fifth step. So the fourth step is what Dax just explained. The fifth step is sharing it with another human being before God. It says shaking like a leaf. What a vulnerable place to put oneself.

• 1:03:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Getting to the part where I acknowledged all this stuff about what was my issue was hard, then telling someone about it wasn't terribly hard for me. But I know, and I've received many dudes fifth steps and I've seen the anxiety coming in and I know the experience, which is just, oh, this person's not walking out of the room in horror over who I am. What a gift. I get the gift of it big time.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:35Dax Shepard?

  I'm not intrinsically flawed and terrible and unlovable. I'm just a dude who did all the same shit all of us other dudes did that got here. Yeah, that's incredible.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  But you have to say it in order to feel it. So saying it for the first time, that's horrifying.

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Have you seen the drama, the new movie?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Okay. I'm obsessed with it. Zendaya, Robert Pattinson.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I think best not to know anything about it when you see it, but a secret is revealed, basically. The whole movie spirals based on that secret. And I, I just think about it all the time. Like, God, yeah, are there things that people just shouldn't ever know about you? Cause we hear say the opposite. It's like, just share it. People will say you're not that bad, or I'm like you, or whatever. But then I was like, oh no, maybe there are some things that shouldn't be shared. I don't know. It's confusing.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Well, I think you want to choose carefully who you're sharing what with. That's for sure. I mean, the fifth step isn't like an indiscriminate, like, let me just grab a guy off the street. It's hopefully at that point, the person who you trust the most, the person who's guided you to even get to that place. So it's a very kind of sacred, special.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:04:59Dax Shepard?

  I think the problem is often, and this is what you see with the tension in our country is like, we have this technology, which is I can see the kid in Wisconsin post a video that is totally fine in his town and should be fine in his town. And the dude in Miami who's making this joke, it's good there.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:18Dax Shepard?

  But it's being seen by people from other. Cultures and other populations and other places and there isn't some unifying. So no, in a program like this, yeah, there's no secret you shouldn't share. Cause they've been through it. We speak the same language. And that's not to say that it's for everyone. And it's not to say that everything has to be for everyone. It's cool to find your group and have that trust among you. And it doesn't necessarily have to extend to everybody.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. You can see even in the course of this conversation, the amount of seemingly weird things that either I or Dax have said before. We're like, yeah. Yeah. It's great. Yeah.

• 1:05:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. If I'm telling my mother in law, like, no, I used to say I was a drunk. And then I had this one moment, I was like, oh, jokes on me. You really are. I don't get it. You knew, but you didn't know. But if you've walked that.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  No, you can 100% know and not know.

• 1:06:09Dax Shepard?

  In your body when you say it.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  A hundred percent.

• 1:06:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I'm imagining that plays into your upward trajectory professionally.

• 1:06:19Speaker 02

  Yes, it was almost immediate. October 1st, 2013, that happens, the next three days, craziest detox. And I was a binge drinker, so I'd gone days without drinking before. Suddenly it was different. The thing was different out of my body, three nights, every night. Whoa. The amount of water that was on Jersey water. The amount of water that was on that bed. I'd wake up always perfectly in the middle of the night. Sasha sleeping next to me, my dog soaking wet, nightmares, lucid dream. I didn't even know if I was sleeping or not.

• 1:06:53Dax Shepard?

  Like.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Where you're falling and then you're not falling.

• 1:06:58Dax Shepard?

  Like, I don't think my abs can activate that way other than detox.

• 1:07:00Speaker 02

  And also, what is it? So everywhere. Yeah. Wake up in the middle of the night. I'd put the blanket back on top so Sasha could go on that side. I'd get on the other side, soak the other side of the bed to wake up in the morning. I'm not even sure if I ever even slept because the dreaming. Anyway, three days, that Friday, have an audition. Starts the process of an audition, which I end up booking a pilot. Where they had like five male leads and they read me for four of the male leads. And I didn't book any of them, but I booked the fifth one.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Oh, weird.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  The one I hadn't read is the one.

• 1:07:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  It seemed like they just wanted me to be there, which was awesome for me. It was wild. I mean, the confirmation, and this is not why we do it. And I'm not saying this is going to happen for everybody. And this is just the way it worked out for me. And maybe that's what I needed at that time. But within two or three weeks, all of a sudden I'd gone from not working in a year and a half to booking a pilot.

• 1:07:52Dax Shepard?

  Well, here's where I can touch higher power. As much as I have a hard time with it, I also weirdly believe you're not given things you can't handle yet. So to me, that's a product of that.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Dax Shepard?

  It's like your God knew I couldn't give him this role a week ago. He had fucked the whole thing up.

• 1:08:10Speaker 02

  Dax, I live by that. I believe that's true.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  Some people aren't that lucky. They do get put in those positions. Me and Charlie Sheen on, you know?

• 1:08:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  I think that all the time, I watched that documentary about him and I just saw, it just seemed like he's like, oh, let me try acting. And then a year later, he's like one of the biggest movie stars in the world.

• 1:08:28Dax Shepard?

  Platoon.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  From someone like me and you watching that, I'm sure you felt the same. I watched it. I was like, oh no.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  That's horrible.

• 1:08:36Speaker 01

  It is. It's a curse, really.

• 1:08:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:08:38Dax Shepard?

  Platoon and then Wall Street, whatever. Did he just kept coming? You know, oh, he's dead.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:08:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Good luck.

• 1:08:45Speaker 02

  I used to think with the like Marlon Brando of it all. I just wonder if, if it's just so easy for you to do, if you understand it so intrinsically without any effort, then you're robbed of the appreciation of the discipline it took you to be good at it. Like if a basketball player could just walk on the floor and wherever they were, throw the ball up and it goes in the net. That basketball player is never going to train a day in their life and they're not going to have respect for the game because they can do a thing that no one else can do. And they're like, why is this a thing to be proud of?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:12Dax Shepard?

  I think you see that with a lot of artists. They feel fraudulent. Because they didn't necessarily work as hard as someone else next to them did. And I think that does fuck people up. I think that's why a lot of comedians go into dramas because for Jim Carrey to be Jim Carrey is easy, as much as that's crazy.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Dax Shepard?

  He knows how to do that.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Which is wild.

• 1:09:31Dax Shepard?

  And I think he felt some guilt of like, I'm the highest paid actor in the world for eight years in a row on this thing. I can just fucking do it. You could wake me up in the middle of the night and say, be funny right now. I could do it. No problem. No prep. I mean, I don't know. I have no idea why.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:43Dax Shepard?

  But there is this insatiable desire for a lot of comedians where to me, it seems like it comes very natural to them that they gotta go fucking grind to demonstrate that they deserve it.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:53Dax Shepard?

  It's all a mental fuck. Like, great. If it's easy for you, let it be easy for you.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  I know, but it's hard because sometimes it's the struggle that gives the meaning context or gives you the context to find the meaning.

• 1:10:06Dax Shepard?

  Great. So I'm dangerously close to fucking you over for your next thing, but I just need to know this is on task. I thought this was really interesting. So you did a interview magazine with.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  My hero, Gary Oldman.

• 1:10:16Speaker 05

  Oh, wow. How cool.

• 1:10:18Dax Shepard?

  So rad. But in that interview, you guys were talking and you said that Ruffalo is super playful and silly and goofy on set to the degree that you finally had to ask him.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm always so curious. I get to work with so many talented people and I always want to learn from them. And you always can. Somebody that'll always share and there'll always be something you could take away and try and get better. But like with Mark, I was like, wow. And this is an actor who I've admired for years and years and years. And also I started in theater, so I know Mark's theater actor in New York. So all these ways in which I really look up to him and then see him on set. And he's so generous. He's so kind and sweet and goofy. He's like a kid. He's playing and he's joking. He's just so silly and is sweet. And so I was like, man, because I can't be that way. Not when I'm doing something like that.

• 1:11:09Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  I kind of want to just live in the energy of what we need to be doing, like somewhere. It's not that literal. I'm not like method or anything. It's just like, let me live in that energy. But Mark, it didn't matter. And then he would do the scenes and they're amazing. So I was like, what is going on? I said, have you always been this way? And he goes, nah, nah, I used to be more like you.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  They're like, what do you mean? He's like, well, I used to be more intense. He's like, cause you're focusing. I was like, yeah, I don't know how to not focus. And that doesn't even come from any like, this is how I do it. It comes from like, I'm being paid to do a job and it's my responsibility to make sure I do my job for you. And so I know what I need to do to make sure I could do my job for you. That's all it is. But Mark was like, I've been doing this for so long. He's like, at a certain point, if it wasn't gonna be fun, I can't keep doing it. Apologies, Mr. Ruffalo, if I'm paraphrasing. But basically it needs to be fun. It needs to be enjoyable for me or it's unsustainable. And it was also a relief because I'm definitely less held than I was 10 years ago. So to hear Mark say, no, I used to be like you. And then to see where he's at now is like, okay, okay.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Maybe this is just maturation. Maybe this is just years under your belt. Maybe this is just experience and eventually you go looser and looser and looser. Wear it like a, what, like a loose fitting garment?

• 1:12:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  Is that our phrase?

• 1:12:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's like, okay, well then there's something to work towards. This constant knowing that you've done the work that you need to do in a way that you can just be easy, be easy, be easy.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I think you could only get that with so much practice. You can just walk in and be like, I just got it.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  You learn that over time.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  You learn it over time and you build trust in yourself. And I definitely trust all those things a lot more, like I said, than I did 10 years ago.

• 1:12:49Dax Shepard?

  I need two hours with you because I gotta say the other thing. Okay. So I'm seeing you act and I'm like, this dude, there is a tenderness to you. That is so attractive and appealing. It's just so beautiful. I mean, within five seconds of meeting your character, I'm like, yeah, I want to help this dude figure out whatever he's figuring out. He's like a good boy.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Complex character.

• 1:13:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Like your heart was just so exposed in it. Third thing was this guy's fucking body's awesome. I then did 10 minutes.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  He's obsessed with male bodies.

• 1:13:21Dax Shepard?

  I did 10 minutes to my wife on the body. I go, okay, so this guy.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  You, bro, look at you.

• 1:13:26Dax Shepard?

  I want to give you the ultimate compliment because this is what I thought. I'm like, this guy's real. And this real dude doesn't go to the gym for an hour a day, but he has this body. And I go, he's one of these dudes I knew in junior high that was just like, for no reason genetically, was just fucking jacked. And you have those kids in your schools, like you're in gym class, everyone's getting undressed.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Dax Shepard?

  Like, what does this guy lift all day long? He's just natural six pack and fucking pecs. And I'm like, that's what this guy is. He's just one of these fucking stallions.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  I love you, brother. I'm not, I'm not. Yeah, you know, it always is a little distracting to me. Sometimes when bodies are a little too perfect, where you're like, this guy's doing this life and you look like you're.

• 1:14:10Dax Shepard?

  But you're slinging trash cans. I mean, we do.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  No, he's active. And also, growing up in Jersey, we're very similar to the boys from Philly and Pennsylvania. Like, we all lifted weight. Almost everybody lifted.

• 1:14:19Dax Shepard?

  Everyone's got a bench in their garage.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  I had a bench in my garage since I was 12 years old. And guess what? If you don't have a bench in your garage, you're doing pushups, you're doing pullups, which is really what I did for Robbie, because it's like, he's gonna just bang them out when he can. Pop some pushups while he's on lunch.

• 1:14:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  You know, you just kind of can't get away from it.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  Get up against the couch, hit some dips.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  He doesn't have a personal trainer.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  You know, and he should look like he had a personal trainer.

• 1:14:47Dax Shepard?

  Tom, I'm so glad we got to meet.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  I know, this was great.

• 1:14:51Dax Shepard?

  I can't pour enough praise on you on task. This happens to me like once every five years. I can name the people, you know, it's just like, I don't know the person. And I'm just like, what? What is this? What?

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:02Dax Shepard?

  It's so fun when that happens. It happens once in a while. For me, the last couple of years, I see you and Timmy Chalamet. I was just like, what?

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  Wow, wow, I'm in good company. That'll take it.

• 1:15:14Dax Shepard?

  I gotta give it to Goggins. Goggins has blown my fucking mind, too.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Goggins is awesome.

• 1:15:17Dax Shepard?

  He's a monster.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  That little boy in the new Game of Thrones show.

• 1:15:22Dax Shepard?

  Well, you just love it.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  How good is that show?

• 1:15:24Dax Shepard?

  It's so good you watch it?

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  I'm only two episodes in, but I love it.

• 1:15:28Dax Shepard?

  It's better and better and better.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  It really does.

• 1:15:29Speaker 02

  It's so good.

• 1:15:30Dax Shepard?

  But delightful to finally meet you. I hope you get all the love and awards that you so rightly deserve for task. What are you working on now?

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  I'm about to go to New York, do a movie with Apple. This really cool like action sci fi. Very different vibe from task.

• 1:15:47Dax Shepard?

  Well, I have one last question. I would be regretful. I didn't ask when you left. We're both in a similar situation, which is we have partners who are way more famous than us.

• 1:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:57Dax Shepard?

  I'm good with it and it seems you are too.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  I love it. First of all, so badass, so impressive what she's been able to do. It's like, girl, go get them. It's so awesome. And secondly, I would not want that. Truly, truly like I'm so grateful if I get to keep being an actor, get to keep making enough money, get to keep having access to good scripts and just fly like right under that radar. Ah, I'd be thrilled. That is a serious thing that they both experienced, like getting to see it up close. Kaylee is kind of like naturally magnanimous. She can live that fully 24 seven in a way without it being a strain because it's not a lie. It's just part of who she is. Whereas like I said before, like I need to retreat to regroup and all that stuff. And I

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  don't think that would be good. Are you getting now because of the nature of this, that when you're speaking, sometimes somebody whips their head because your voice is what's doing it too?

• 1:16:53Dax Shepard?

  The funnest one I had was being at my daughter's school. They had like a kickoff for the new year and then they had a little field day and there's a hamburger cart thing. And I stepped up to get my hamburger and I said, oh, could I get it without a bun to this like 14 year old girl? And she goes, yeah. And I go, okay, thanks. And she goes, wait, you're not on Armchair Anonymous, are you? Like never see me, never see anything of it. Like, oh, I'm an actor. But yeah, 14 year old kid.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  That's a Friday show that's a little different that a lot of kids like.

• 1:17:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought she was just misnaming this show. Okay, okay.

• 1:17:24Dax Shepard?

  It's like listeners tell crazy stories. And so she somehow is a 14 year old girl at this school loves that show. And that one, the most trippy. And I was like, oh, that's so rad. This like young girl doesn't even know I'm an actor. Anything like that. Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that was great. Well, you're a delight and I really do hope we can double date or something.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, brother. I would love that.

• 1:17:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're a good boy. I can tell.

• 1:17:48Dax Shepard?

  But you used to be a bad boy, so that's my favorite kind of boy. All right. Good luck with everything. Love you, bro.

• 1:17:55Speaker 03

  He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gonna let him have the facts.

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 1:18:06Dax Shepard?

  Hello. Were you at an event?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  I went to an event last night.

• 1:18:10Dax Shepard?

  Well, let's see, you have makeup on today.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I am. Yeah, and I'm going to one after our recording, so I had to put a little bit of makeup.

• 1:18:18Dax Shepard?

  God, you're bookending all of this with events?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  I know, and I am.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  And I, I'm also dying. Like, I don't, something's wrong with me. I just made a doctor's appointment. I like bit the bullet. I was like, I gotta, I, what's going on? Why are these lingering for so long? They shouldn't be lingering.

• 1:18:39Dax Shepard?

  But it's lingering for everyone, just to make you feel safe. Like, again, I had it for three and a half weeks.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  But me too. And then it went away, and then it came back, and then it went away again, and then it came back. It's like, it's just in me, like, I.

• 1:18:49Dax Shepard?

  It's dancing.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  It's, I know, and I, I hate, I like, I didn't used to care about antibiotics, but now that I live in LA, it's like, and I'm like afraid of them.

• 1:18:58Dax Shepard?

  I'm on antibiotics.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  You are?

• 1:19:00Dax Shepard?

  In my eyeball.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Oh, no, it doesn't work.

• 1:19:03Dax Shepard?

  I have a horrible sty.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Did you put a hot compress?

• 1:19:07Dax Shepard?

  I did. I'm doing, and I, everyone's telling me to do.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:19:12Dax Shepard?

  It's just so funny when you, there's certain things, right? You say it, and then every, it's like, almost like, when someone falls, you say, are you okay? Oh, I have a thing, hot compress. You know, there's a few, there's a handful of things.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 1:19:24Dax Shepard?

  And I'm being heavily monitored. I mean, I live with three ladies.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 1:19:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, no, no. I'm not mad at you.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Be up your butt.

• 1:19:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no, no, I'm not mad at you. I'm laughing at the frequency. I get it. Everyone would naturally want to just help me.

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Everyone wants to make you feel better.

• 1:19:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a way to help. It's just funny. Each girl that walks through the room, have you done a hot?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  It's really funny.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  They want you to do a.

• 1:19:46Dax Shepard?

  And then you said it right away. And I was like, this is crack me up. Um.

• 1:19:49Speaker 06

  It'll go in its own. Don't worry.

• 1:19:52Dax Shepard?

  Without that.

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  No, no. See, this is why you need all these women around.

• 1:19:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So this is all men. They'd be like, throw a rock at it.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  Makes me feel better that you're on antibiotics. Like, yeah, maybe I just carpet bomb this system. Let's get rid of it. It's like, it's in there and it keeps coming back. It's like clear. It's just kind of dormant and like ready to pop.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  It is a nice, though. It's like a nice way to get a dose of gratitude and go like, oh, this is what people would like chronic pain. Like, you know, just

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:20:24Dax Shepard?

  Sometimes to experience like, oh, yeah. If you don't feel well for weeks on end, it's really, it really permeates everything.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:20:34Dax Shepard?

  You're doing and thinking about. But yeah, I started feeling it again. Um, I love relearning the same lessons just over and over again. But, um, you know, I was in Nashville, slept like a little baby to the point where I didn't even wake up to pee like five of the nights. And I was like, this is crazy. I thought I always have to wake up for pee, for pee pee. And then virtually the second I got home and we had this crazy week, this my sleep just went to shit. And I was getting a ton of caffeine in Nashville. Come on, vacay. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's all stress. And then, yeah, a stye and Kristen gets styes before she goes to work. Do you ever get them?

• 1:21:12Speaker 01

  I've never had one.

• 1:21:14Dax Shepard?

  They're so stress related. It's crazy. Like, it's shocking how immediate and directed is to stress. What's your stress thing? Do you get, will you get a rash or?

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I don't really, I don't think I have. Uh, well, I know, I just always have those. Yeah, whether I'm stressed or not. Um, I don't think I, I present. Physically with your stress symptoms like sometimes when I, you know, I'll think like, oh, with my face, like if I'm like breaking out or something like, oh, maybe it's stress. But I don't think it is.

• 1:21:46Dax Shepard?

  You don't think it is?

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  I just think it's just like, I get like anxious and depressed.

• 1:21:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  But I don't think I get physical symptoms.

• 1:21:55Dax Shepard?

  But like even, I'm saying this as a rational person, even walk me through the mechanism of how being stressed is going to give me a small infection on the inside of my eyelid. Like, it doesn't even, I don't even understand how it could make sense. Other than it's just over and over again, I see this.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Dax Shepard?

  As a result of something.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Body keeps the score, they say.

• 1:22:14Dax Shepard?

  Body, body. Okay, I can't do it. We need Ricky Glass.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Oh, um, BKTS.

• 1:22:22Dax Shepard?

  BKTS.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  I'm pretty good.

• 1:22:24Dax Shepard?

  Sounds like K-pop man.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Not as good as Ricky.

• 1:22:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I've been having real for the first time ever FOMO about Coachella, which I've never had.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Dax Shepard?

  But I keep watching this clip of Bieber and I like wish I was there so bad.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:22:41Dax Shepard?

  And then I'm so stupid, I didn't know it's two weekends in a row.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  You learned a lot yesterday. We had a guest on Easter Egg who performed at Coachella and will be performing again next weekend.

• 1:22:53Dax Shepard?

  And I didn't want to ask that guest if Bieber is going to perform again. Does he perform again?

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  You're supposed to, it's supposed to be same lineup.

• 1:23:00Dax Shepard?

  It's the same thing?

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  It's supposed to be, but I mean, I don't know.

• 1:23:03Dax Shepard?

  If I can, do you know the moment I'm talking about? He's like, I think it's towards the end, he's down, he's like, there's a camera and they start playing. It sounds like a little bit of a remix of one of his old songs, but it's from, you know, he did this mashup of his YouTube stuff.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. And they play it, right?

• 1:23:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. He's, he's like singing along to little hymn.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:23:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm presuming there was some visual component to it as well.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  He's playing again the second weekend.

• 1:23:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's the same.

• 1:23:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, and the strokes are right before him.

• 1:23:35Dax Shepard?

  Is it Saturday night?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  You gonna go?

• 1:23:36Speaker 06

  Saturday night, he puts it at 11:25 PM.

• 1:23:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh, perfect, because I was just thinking Molly's birthday party, I can't go.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  But now you might go.

• 1:23:44Dax Shepard?

  I have some calls to make. I want to find out if someone fancy like is zipping in last minute that I can tag along with.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:23:52Dax Shepard?

  I might call in a lot of favors for this.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  I do think this one, it's like back, like Coachella feels like it like kinda was eh for a minute. I shouldn't say that. I don't care about Coachella, so I'm only like on the periphery.

• 1:24:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  But um.

• 1:24:03Dax Shepard?

  Do you have the thoughts I had that I expressed yesterday, which is like when I'm seeing the photos from people at Coachella? I'm like, I don't have the outfits for Coachella. Like you, everyone's looking like.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  They have a vibe.

• 1:24:16Dax Shepard?

  And even our, our guest said, um, wardrobe, something, it was a phrase about taking pictures of your wardrobe.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  Oh, she just said like outfit pics.

• 1:24:24Dax Shepard?

  But there's another word. Yeah, no, there was. I don't want to get logged down in what I do or don't know. I guess you're proving the point I'm trying to make anyways, which is like, I do look at those pictures and I'm like, I don't know if I have any business being there. A lot of people are in like bikini, like very high fashion bikinis.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  You just don't have to wear that and just go, you do what you want to do, but you could still see the music if you want. I'm not a music, um, um.

• 1:24:50Dax Shepard?

  Consumer?

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  No, what's it called? Music festival goer.

• 1:24:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  That's not for me.

• 1:24:56Dax Shepard?

  Too many people, right?

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  So many people, crowds, and then I'm like, I can't see, people are taller than me, it's dusty.

• 1:25:03Dax Shepard?

  Although I did have that incredible experience at Bonnaroo, when we were sent there to promote Hit and Run.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Cause it's just rolling grassy green fields and it was just like ideal weather, green, no dust.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 1:25:19Dax Shepard?

  Really spread out, so you didn't feel very crowded, even though presumably there are a bazillion people there.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  There's one in Napa that I might go to because I like Napa. Yeah, Bottle Rock, that's where Molly goes.

• 1:25:30Dax Shepard?

  Loves it.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  And Erica goes sometimes with Molly and.

• 1:25:33Dax Shepard?

  You should go to that with them.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I just won't go to the music and I'll just go shopping.

• 1:25:39Dax Shepard?

  No, no, you go there and drink wine and stroll around and stuff and just whatever way the crowd's moving, you just move the other way.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  I think I'd rather just go to Napa a different time.

• 1:25:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:25:49Dax Shepard?

  Um, speaking of Napa, I keep reading the, you know, the wine industry's like collapsed.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  I know. Well, it's collapsing. Yeah.

• 1:25:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I shouldn't say past tense, but it's in a real rough state.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  I need to, I like, I gotta get there. I gotta help out.

• 1:26:03Dax Shepard?

  What I'm proposing to you is that you might want to attend one of these auctions and buy a winery as a distressed asset because they're auctioning off these wineries that were worth gubillions of dollars. They've also just been trashing tons of yields.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:20Dax Shepard?

  It's really depressing.

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  I know, because it's so beautiful and lovely.

• 1:26:24Dax Shepard?

  Pig in me is like, should I try to?

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you should.

• 1:26:28Dax Shepard?

  Junk a land in a fire sale?

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  In Napa, yes. Because I want to stay there.

• 1:26:34Dax Shepard?

  You want to go?

• 1:26:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Speaker 06

  Pull our money and buy an Armchair Winery.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Arm Cherry, and we have notes of cherry in there.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Listen, that is, Sim, that you brought that up because I went to an auction last night.

• 1:26:56Dax Shepard?

  Was that your event that you?

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Yes, that was the event I went to. Friend of the pod, beautiful, lovely, wonderful friend of the pod and friend of life, Lake Bell.

• 1:27:04Dax Shepard?

  Ah, how was that?

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  Who's hosting it. It was so fun. It was so cool. So it was for Red, the charity Red. Remember? Okay. Red used to be like all the rage.

• 1:27:17Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  It was everywhere. We were talking about this, like millennials knew about the charity Red. It's like maybe the only charity we knew about.

• 1:27:24Dax Shepard?

  It was collabs with brands and you could only get this product in red.

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yes, my Nano was red.

• 1:27:30Dax Shepard?

  It's genius.

• 1:27:31Speaker 01

  My iPad and Nano. Yeah, it was genius. Anyway, and they did a lot, like they've done a lot of really great work. But unfortunately, and that's why I shouldn't be making fun of AIDS all the time on here. It's like.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  It's like on its way back.

• 1:27:46Dax Shepard?

  What?

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but goodness is-

• 1:27:48Dax Shepard?

  We have all this treatment for it.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  I know, but well globally, it's on its way back. Yeah, and but here, but yeah, there's treatments, but that's kind of why it's like people aren't like as concerned, but then there's a vaccine.

• 1:28:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, there is now, for HIV?

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:03Dax Shepard?

  By the way, that brings up measles. There's like 200 kids now have passed from fucking measles.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Fuck, they've died?

• 1:28:09Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:28:10Dax Shepard?

  Totally preventable, fucking drives me nuts.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's sort of their-

• 1:28:15Dax Shepard?

  What do you think there's side effects for the measles vax? Go find me 200 people that have died from the measles vax over the last 25 years. You can't do it.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  I know, exactly. So, but yeah, there's holdups for the vaccine right now, but it's like that. So that's kind of their-

• 1:28:30Dax Shepard?

  Bush.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  That's our push is like, we can end this. It's not like we can slow it down or like treat symptoms like, no, it can be done.

• 1:28:39Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  So, which is very, very cool. But anyway, so I went to this auction and it was really cool because, so I guess Lake has been doing this for like 20 years and her mom started it and she does it at like different charities, for different charities. And it's called Auction for Nothing.

• 1:28:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  And the way it was presented to me was like last, oh my God, I'm so sorry.

• 1:29:04Dax Shepard?

  What's happening over there?

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 1:29:06Dax Shepard?

  Is it cold? What if when you're at the doctor, you read just sympt- what are your symptoms? I keep dropping a piece of metal on my computer network.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  It's weird. I just like have no motor control. Oh, maybe I don't have any motor control. Oh my God, and I can't talk either.

• 1:29:19Dax Shepard?

  But is it falling off your finger or you're doodling with it?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  I'm playing with it.

• 1:29:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay. All right. So it's kind of like measles. It is avoidable, but-

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  It's a tiny bit big. Okay, so it was, it was presented as like, you know, you you bring some like kind of like non-item item and people auction for it and it's super fun. Like she said, someone brought like a fake hundred dollar bill from their purse. Someone brought a plane ticket to somewhere like old. Like, you know, kind of nothing items. It's just like a fun way to raise money.

• 1:29:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so people are bidding on shit that's junk.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  But like funky and fun.

• 1:29:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, hopefully it's a bit of a bit.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was like, what should I bring? What should I bring? So I, I was like, oh, I know. I have a key card in my wallet from the Four Seasons Beverly Hills. It's an 1111 key card.

• 1:30:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, uh huh.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  That I stayed in on my birthday, as we know, it's lucky, it's, and I was like, this is a sacrifice.

• 1:30:23Dax Shepard?

  But it doesn't say 1111 on it.

• 1:30:25Speaker 01

  It does.

• 1:30:25Dax Shepard?

  It does?

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz it's in its sleeve.

• 1:30:28Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  So it says it.

• 1:30:29Dax Shepard?

  It was written with a pen?

• 1:30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, I felt like, wow, I'm

• 1:30:37Dax Shepard?

  This is your party.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  I'm sacrificing something that's important to me, but whatever. So you get there, you write your item on this card and you put its, like, your estimated value. And I said estimated value $1,111. And anyway, put it in, great. It starts and actually, who do you think? Who do you think? Who do you think made the first bid?

• 1:31:08Dax Shepard?

  You?

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Dax Shepard?

  Did you get it back?

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  It was me. No, it wasn't for that. So, so she picks out of the hat, reads them all. So the first one was Naomi Scott, actually.

• 1:31:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  And it was, um, she says she would curate for you, you give her a year and she would curate like all the magazines of a, of a magazine brand. I took D, I don't know, but, um, and for that year. And I was like, oh.

• 1:31:41Dax Shepard?

  They collect all 12 issues of a magazine for you?

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Exactly, like off eBay or something.

• 1:31:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:31:47Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh, that's kind of fun. I like magazines. I bid first.

• 1:31:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay, great.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Got this auction going.

• 1:31:54Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  And then she threw, you know, she was like, I mean, it's really, like, it's fun for the ads. And then I remembered Got Milk.

• 1:32:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  And I was like, oh shit, I can, I can like

• 1:32:05Dax Shepard?

  Request.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Get some of these old Got Milks. And so then I, you know, I kept bidding and bidding and I won.

• 1:32:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, great. How much you spent on that?

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  400.

• 1:32:13Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  Okay, great start to the night. And I was like, oh, I participated, I'm done, you know? No.

• 1:32:20Dax Shepard?

  You're not done. You're just getting started.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you were just getting started.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  I do not think I should go to auctions anymore.

• 1:32:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you got competitive?

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, cuz boots, there were boots from a, from a boot brand.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  From a fancy brand.

• 1:32:37Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so there is real ones too.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay. See, this is where things got tricky.

• 1:32:42Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Cuz then things started to get very like real and then I was like, oh no.

• 1:32:47Dax Shepard?

  How many people are at this function? And is it in a living room or like a big space?

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  It was, it wasn't at a huge space. It was at an intimate space rented in, in like Hollywood.

• 1:32:57Dax Shepard?

  Hollywood, okay.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Cool space.

• 1:32:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I started to panic cuz I was like, people are doing real things and I put in a key card.

• 1:33:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Uh, so.

• 1:33:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're starting to panic.

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Yep, and I was like, what do I do? Now I look like an idiot.

• 1:33:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  And no one's gonna, and I also want, then I got competitive on the other end. Like, I want people to want my item.

• 1:33:18Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  So she starts to read it, you know, and I was like, oh my god. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna throw in one night stay.

• 1:33:26Dax Shepard?

  You interrupted?

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:33:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  Well, she read it and I was like, and, and I'll, I'm gonna throw in one night stay at the hotel. That felt like a really good pairing, you know? I was like, I can't guarantee it'll be room 1111, but.

• 1:33:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Um, and it went for $1,100.

• 1:33:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is probably what it will kinda cost me to buy that room. So, you know.

• 1:33:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, push.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, but it was really fun.

• 1:33:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that does sound fun. I wanna share that I, I'm delighted about this cuz I finally kinda can truly relate. Like, you keep hearing this term parasocial relationship and certainly intellectually I understand what it means and what the definition is.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:08Dax Shepard?

  But I don't know that I've ever been able to relate to it.

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:34:11Dax Shepard?

  But I am finding myself in a crazy parasocial relationship, yet I also know the person. So this is very.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Yes, this, these are the trickier ones.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:34:22Dax Shepard?

  So it's Sedaris. So like, you know, we've had him on. I've gone for a walk with him.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we've had him on many times.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I get occasional postcards from him and I I've sent one or two. And so I have access to him. But um, I it started with us listening, as I've said before, listening with the girls at night to Sedaris audiobooks.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:42Dax Shepard?

  But now it's become that's what I listen to before bed, period. I I don't listen to anything else anymore.

• 1:34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:49Dax Shepard?

  And I haven't for months.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Dax Shepard?

  And I'm re listening to the same books over and over again. And I already know the stories and I love them just as much. And it's like, every eighth word he chooses, I get a ping of joy. And I'm so now immersed in his life. I think it's the whole parasocial part. The reason it it's possible is it's not fictitious, right? So everything he's writing about is Hugh and his sisters and his dad.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now you know, you know, everything about him, you think.

• 1:35:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I'm like, I'm so upset. I can't be at breakfast with he and Amy or out shopping with them. Or he has this friend who he goes on these weird day trips to different countries when he's in France with. And I'm like, I want so bad to be spending all of his time with him and hearing him compute the world.

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  That is what it is.

• 1:35:43Dax Shepard?

  And his breakdown, I was just re listening to his breakdown of COVID and being in New York City and the BLM thing. And just the way he's so perfectly skewers kind of everybody, but also participates.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  But I have a question. Okay.

• 1:35:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Do you do? So you want to be with him?

• 1:36:02Dax Shepard?

  I want to spend a lot of time with him.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  I know, but.

• 1:36:05Dax Shepard?

  And I want to somehow be creative with him too.

• 1:36:09Speaker 01

  That's not really parasocial. Parasocial is like you feel.

• 1:36:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Speaker 01

  Like you're like, I know him.

• 1:36:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I feel way closer to him than he could possibly feel to me.

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're like, oh, my God, like Amy would definitely do something like that.

• 1:36:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, I just think I would fit in perfectly with those two in my mind, of course.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  You think like, like you like, you know, their personality is like if someone out in the world did something like that, sounds like. My buddy.

• 1:36:38Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I'm thinking about him many, many times throughout the day.

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:42Dax Shepard?

  Every day for months.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, yeah. Welcome to the club.

• 1:36:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Pretty fun, actually.

• 1:36:48Dax Shepard?

  I love it and it's frustrating. I can also understand, like, when I hear people, we'll say they have a parasocial relationship with you. It's like, yeah, I really feel it now. I under- I understand that and it's frustrating.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:04Dax Shepard?

  Cause like, I love him. You know, like, I, I just love how his brain works and I wanna like, be able to real time experience life with him.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's so great.

• 1:37:17Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  But you can see why in the podcast space, why it's extra, right?

• 1:37:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  Like, this conversation we're having is so normal. We're not choosing. I mean, we are. We're making choices ultimately as to what people hear and don't hear. But like, we're just talking off the cuff, me and you.

• 1:37:47Dax Shepard?

  We have no game plan, yeah.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so if someone's listening to that, of course, it tricks their brain, like, they're here with us.

• 1:37:55Dax Shepard?

  And it's real time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  They know us, they know what we think.

• 1:37:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they can predict what you or I will respond to.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like, it's complicated.

• 1:38:04Dax Shepard?

  I understand how genuine it is.

• 1:38:06Speaker 01

  It's very genuine. Oh, my God.

• 1:38:08Dax Shepard?

  It's not like, sometimes I think.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  It's not sick.

• 1:38:10Dax Shepard?

  Sometimes you, you'll, you'll kind of frame it as like, it's scary.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Well, it, it can be.

• 1:38:16Dax Shepard?

  Not to me. I like, I know how I feel about David. There's nothing he could be, he should be scared of.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Okay, you are talking about you very specifically, but parasocial relationships can get very slippery and scary. I mean, hello, Beth Stead was 100% that. That show is about parasocial relationships.

• 1:38:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  And it, and that is, and like, what you're owed, what you're owed by the people you know. You're in a different position.

• 1:38:41Dax Shepard?

  But also, yeah, I don't, I don't think. Sideros owes me anything. I think I owe him something. The amount, the hours of joy this man has given me is like crazy. I paid $13 for the book. It's kind of fucking bonkers.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  But like, okay, I currently am in a parasocial relationship right now with Aaron and Sarah Foster.

• 1:39:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  I started listening to their podcast and I, I, I listen, part of it, yes, is when you're listening, like I listen at night and like, so they're in your head before you're going to bed and like, they're just in your, again, with podcasting specifically, they're in your world when you're doing like your intimate things.

• 1:39:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:19Speaker 01

  And so, but like, you know, my best friend works with them every day. Two of my best friends work with them every day. Like it's this weird, it's kind of this weird, they're close enough. And like, I was, I was, I was listening to an old episode and I was like, Anna, can you ask Aaron?

• 1:39:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Can you ask Aaron about this doctor thing she was talking about? Cause I think I need to go to the doctor and I kind of am interested in trying this and she talked about it on the pod. Can you ask her? Anna thinks this is all so weird and funny, right?

• 1:39:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, cause Anna works, sits next to her all day long.

• 1:40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And she thinks it's weird when people have it with me.

• 1:40:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'll tell you what I have to do. And I guess now we're really, we're in a zone that we could guide each other, which is I have to fight the urge and I have successfully fought the urge to send him a voice memo almost every day to tell him how much I like this story or I like how he said this thing or I like, and I just know better, right? I, I, I just know that even if he loves me to death.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:30Dax Shepard?

  He can only really absorb so much of that thing.

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:40:35Dax Shepard?

  And I'm sure he feels like there is the literary him and there's the him.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Yes. Again, that's why that's different. He, I mean, it's stories about him, but they're crafted. They're, they're.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  They're perfect.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  They're perfect. Yeah. They're not us doing this. Like where then they walk down, we walk down the street and someone says something about Tonka and it's like, oh, fuck. Yeah. I forgot I said that. He's not forgetting what he put in his books. Like it's on purpose, but I think he, you could send him a nice note.

• 1:41:04Dax Shepard?

  It takes all my restraint. Well, look, I've read what I know I need to do and what's insane cause I'm obsessed is I know I need to send him more postcards.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:41:12Dax Shepard?

  But I'm not making the time to do that. And, and, and he gave this great speech. It's in one of his books. He, he gave a speech to one of some college. And he was basically telling them like, you know, write a letter to your grandmother. Write a letter to, like, that was all his only advice for these graduates. Basically, he's like, take the time to sit down and write so that your grandma can be sitting there and reading this thing and holding it. It's not a fucking text message and blah, blah, blah.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 1:41:38Dax Shepard?

  And so I heard that and I'm like, I'm, I can't even, if I'm, if I, if I'm, I want to honor him. I already know what he thinks is disposable.

• 1:41:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:48Dax Shepard?

  Anyways, it's also crazy to have all these feelings about him because I actually know.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  You know what's, okay, this isn't, and I don't mean for him, but there can be a don't meet your heroes. I mean, meet your heroes, but don't get so close in parasocial relationships. Right? So because like, you know, I'm like, well, I like, I'm like friends with, I'm like friends with Aaron and Sarah. Like we're friends.

• 1:42:14Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:42:15Speaker 01

  And, and then I do laugh at myself because I take a step back and I'm like, well, we actually for real could be friends. We have like so many people in common. I could meet them, but I was like, oh no, that would ruin it. It would change, okay, ruin is maybe not.

• 1:42:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't know if that's the right word.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Okay. Cause I, well, I experienced this with Elizabeth and Andy. I had a full parasocial relationship with them for so long.

• 1:42:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  And now we're all very, very good friends. And I still love their podcast so much I listen immediately, but it's not the same listening experience.

• 1:42:55Dax Shepard?

  Cause you don't have the yearning to connect to it. You have the connection. So it's like the yearning has been taken away.

• 1:43:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I like, and then, yeah, I will text and it's normal. Just like my friends text about our show, that doesn't feel parasocial. That just feels like.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So I wonder if the move is for me to protect this very special feeling I have every single night for an hour.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess we never get to.

• 1:43:19Dax Shepard?

  Reserve that, but I've been having these feelings lately and it's not that I'm looking for inspiration. I just find the thought of this inspiring, which is like, we interviewed a journalist yesterday. Who's like so impressive.

• 1:43:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:33Dax Shepard?

  And his mind is so wonderfully curious. And I've been having these thoughts lately of like, I would like to figure, put more time into figuring out how to collaborate, collaborate, collaborate with people, whether it's writing or it's something I just, I just am like intrigued by the notion of, I haven't written with a human being since The Groundlings, you know?

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:57Dax Shepard?

  But I used to love that. It's like you, and also you're forced in there. So there was 15 of us in the company. And if I had my druthers, me and Josh Nathan would have written together every day because we had the exact same sense of humor, but you write with everybody.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:11Dax Shepard?

  And so you're kind of forced to bring these radically different perspectives and you sit in your apartment, your one bedroom apartment, until you come up with a three page sketch.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:18Dax Shepard?

  And often you came up with really great stuff because you had to.

• 1:44:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:44:22Dax Shepard?

  And it was a really joyous experience that I long for.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you can find that. I also think you could.

• 1:44:31Dax Shepard?

  I don't know when I'm doing this, but.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Well, sure, whatever. It can be something you want to do and try to do, but also I think it's okay to admire from afar, or not even afar, but like, just like, I love what that person does. I can let that be something I consume.

• 1:44:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  And I don't have to be like connected to it or a part of it or a part of them.

• 1:44:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, let's work through that. That's, I mean, I'm on the surface, I'm, I agree with you. But I'm curious, like, I guess it's just natural. If you enjoy something, you want to be close to it.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Of course, of course. It's also because I think you actually, you're in a weird position where you have the ability to.

• 1:45:15Dax Shepard?

  If I put a lot of energy into it.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  You could do it. For so long, I wanted these collaborations with people. And, you know, it's like, oh, if only I could work with this person or this person and, and I couldn't.

• 1:45:28Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, right.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  There was no way to do that.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  And in do, and then not able to.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think there is something freeing to just like that person's that person's just great.

• 1:45:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  As it is, I don't know.

• 1:45:44Dax Shepard?

  The dangerous part could be I want to somehow work with them. And I want to produce something with them. And I guess I want them to see me as worthy of that.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Yes, of course.

• 1:46:00Dax Shepard?

  I certainly know I have zero money motives. So that's good. Like, I can take that off the table. Something like, I'm like, oh, we could have a best seller. You know, I don't have them thinking like that.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  But you're worthy. I guess that's sort of how I like, I think that's like, you don't need anointment. You don't need somebody else to say like,

• 1:46:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but that's the thing, like, when you love someone from afar, you do, you hope they would love you.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  You do, but I think you can get to a place where it doesn't really matter. Like, if you find out they like you, it's like, oh, my God, that's so flattering. But like,

• 1:46:32Dax Shepard?

  I'm there with other actors.

• 1:46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:35Dax Shepard?

  For sure.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Dax Shepard?

  Like, certainly I'm flattered by that whole fast spender story, if it even happened.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so cool.

• 1:46:41Dax Shepard?

  But also that fast spender story would have in the past sent me into another sphere. And then I'm like, I fear how to work with this guy. When that's not, just because he likes me doesn't mean he and I are going to be in a movie together or whatever. So that stuff has all gotten very neutralized in my life. Like, yes, I can just like someone and if they like me, that's great. But I don't, I'm not off to the races with all these fantasies. But of course, more and more, and I think maybe I was reminded by it by this journalist. We were, we were reminiscing about self submitting stories to journals and publishers and just how demoralizing that is. And you have your little envelopes and your postcards you send with it so they can respond to you. And so I do think because that was my initial thing I wanted to always do.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:24Dax Shepard?

  I have a reverie for writers.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:27Dax Shepard?

  In a way that is probably reminiscent of like, when I first started acting, I had this crazy reverie for

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:35Dax Shepard?

  actors. And then All the way around to your point, like, maybe just keep in chairs that you don't need to infiltrate that and then neutralize that too. Maybe just stay a fan.

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  You can stay a fan. Maybe it's like confidence or, which I know you have, but it's weird. I guess.

• 1:47:52Dax Shepard?

  Too much of.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  Well, you have a lot.

• 1:47:56Dax Shepard?

  Intermittent confidence.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  And then you have none, like it's weird.

• 1:47:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  I guess we all, we all have that pendulum, but I, um, oh.

• 1:48:03Dax Shepard?

  You just reminded me of something, but great, great, great, or something I've been meaning to bring up for three or four weeks.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  Okay. I feel like if someone comes up and tells us, someone, um, I really respect, obviously, comes up and says they love the podcast or whatever. I, I'm flattered.

• 1:48:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  But we're not, I'm not doing this for that.

• 1:48:28Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  At all. Like it's, it, which is maybe newish for me in the past 10 years of it. I don't feel like I need that approval.

• 1:48:37Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  From people I wanted respect from.

• 1:48:42Dax Shepard?

  To confirm for yourself whether it's good or bad or.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  I think it's good. I'm proud of it.

• 1:48:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  And I don't care, like what other people say, good or bad, doesn't have much of an impact.

• 1:48:54Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Cause I feel very convicted in, in my feelings about this.

• 1:48:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  So I guess that's sort of what I would hope.

• 1:49:03Dax Shepard?

  I feel as a human being.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that you just like, don't need that, who we had the other day to like, work with them so that you're like, and I, so I worked with them, like they made, so I must be good, right? It's like, well.

• 1:49:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I just want to live inside of one of his stories as much as I can. Uh, and I feel like by being with him, since the stories are about reality, somehow I'd be able to live in one of those stories. Um, okay, the thing you just reminded me of, cause it was confidence and domains and we were talking about things, identity markers that are important to me. And the one I said that was troubling to you, as it should be, was I said fighting.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:49:37Dax Shepard?

  And then I didn't, it's always irked me since then that I didn't, I didn't explain why. And I have figured out how to articulate why.

• 1:49:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:49:46Dax Shepard?

  And this is not a boo hoo. I, I would hate for you to think that this is a boo hoo story, but. I think if you grow up with an older brother that's significantly older than you and you guys fight a lot, you have great fear of that violence. And then you have some step dads that are like really, really violent and you're scared a lot

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Dax Shepard?

  of that. And then you go to junior high and you date an eighth grader and now all the eighth graders want to kick your ass and just like older dudes wanting to kick your ass and then just floating through Aaron's neighborhood and the amount of violence, like the amount of time in my early life that I was so terrified of men and of violence to come to a place through fighting where I don't have any of that fear. I walk in the street, any guy I see, I have no fear. I'm not saying I can beat every guy up, but I'm saying I have no fear. I've conquered that fear and the fear was so all consuming and so frequent that it is

• 1:50:50Dax Shepard?

  like a total shackles I broke out of through finally forcing myself to stand up, fight back, do the thing and overcoming it. So if there's been any one of these identity markers that has given me the most relief, funny enough.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:05Dax Shepard?

  It's way more than driving fast.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:08Dax Shepard?

  It's way more than all these other goofy ones I have.

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:11Dax Shepard?

  But it's the one that liberated me from this feeling I hated, which was fear.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:51:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm being scared.

• 1:51:18Speaker 01

  That makes total sense. I think I meant more like.

• 1:51:21Dax Shepard?

  And clearly fighting is just bad and it's not a way to define yourself. So I get all of that, but for me, I wanted you to understand why that's an important one for me. It's like, yeah.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I, I think I know that about, I don't think you like it because it's, it makes you scary.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  Right, or I'm trying, like I want to beat somebody up.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Right, I don't think that, but I guess for me, when I look at the big picture, I'm like, the reason you were put in the position in the first place to be scared is because somebody else is violent because of somebody else who made them, it's like, to me, it's this like. Horrible cycle that makes kids afraid and then they have to build that, you know, defense mechanism. And it's like, I would just want the whole thing to stop.

• 1:52:09Dax Shepard?

  For sure. And when you watch the Jack Reacher video of the guy pushing him off his motorcycle and him being the guy up, like, it's just all obvious violence and all of it's bad. And all I'm seeing is, oh, yeah, that guy tried to make Jack Reacher terrified.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:27Dax Shepard?

  And tried to hurt him.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  And Jag was like,

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Fuck this.

• 1:52:30Dax Shepard?

  Fuck this.

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, by the way, I, I like defend yourself. I'm not, I don't think he did the wrong thing there. I'm just like, oh, like, I hate all this. I hate that guy who sucks.

• 1:52:40Dax Shepard?

  You hate violence.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  And that guy who came out is violent too.

• 1:52:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  That's my, like, he started with violence. It was reciprocated with violence. This whole thing is just like, I just wish that wasn't like the case, you know? Um, but I mean, it's also reality. So whatever. But that's where I'm coming from when I say like, I just wish that cycle would stop. But, you know?

• 1:53:04Dax Shepard?

  I agree. It's a terrible reality of life on planet Earth. So I'd rather be someone that wasn't a victim of it.

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. And it's like when women take self-defense classes. It's not because they like want to run in the street and start kicking everyone.

• 1:53:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they want to not feel afraid.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. So I do a hundred percent.

• 1:53:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  I get that.

• 1:53:24Dax Shepard?

  And, and, and, um, Cecilina, the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu champ, like, if she tells me something I love about myself is I'm, I'm indomitable.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:33Dax Shepard?

  I, I love that.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 1:53:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 1:53:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  I guess just the whole thing makes me sad. It's like, yeah, it's, it makes me sad that you have to do that because there are people in the world who rape people.

• 1:53:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  And that makes you have to do this thing, you know, whatever. But anyway, it makes total sense to me that that would be a.

• 1:53:51Dax Shepard?

  And my algorithm unfortunately confirms my worldview that this is still essential.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  See, that's what's so funny. I don't have that.

• 1:53:59Dax Shepard?

  You don't have it, right? So like, I see so many videos of like, just a random Joe at a bar doing nothing and some asshole. You know, I see so many of those videos. So for me, I'm also misled probably about the frequency rate.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you wanna do some facts?

• 1:54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, let's do some facts.

• 1:54:16Dax Shepard?

  Facts are fun.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  For Tom.

• 1:54:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I really love Tom.

• 1:54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:21Dax Shepard?

  He delivered.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  Okay, so state universities that don't have the words like state or university in them. Cause remember he went to Rutgers and we were like, oh, that's weird. It doesn't say university.

• 1:54:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  So is it private or public? But technically Rutgers is Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.

• 1:54:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I read that. That's how I knew it was the State University of New Jersey.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:54:47Dax Shepard?

  But I, again, still, it's weird that it's Rutgers State University of.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:54Dax Shepard?

  It's not Bellingham University of Georgia.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  Right. That's true. That's true. That's true. That's true.

• 1:55:01Dax Shepard?

  You know, it's not like.

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:02Dax Shepard?

  McHastin, North Carolina State University.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. But I'm not finding a lot of others.

• 1:55:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  It's all like College of New Jersey, College of Charleston, SUNY.

• 1:55:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, is Duke, what's Duke?

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  Duke is private.

• 1:55:15Dax Shepard?

  It's private, okay.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And Tulane is private. I had brought that up, but that's private too.

• 1:55:22Dax Shepard?

  Only private.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:55:23Dax Shepard?

  Very private.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  Very, very, very, very private. Um, okay, I looked up what's happening with, um, when you're detoxing, when you have the stomach jolts. Cause he said, what is that?

• 1:55:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  The body's reacting to the sudden removal of substances it is adapted to, causing gastrointestinal distress, muscle spasms from electrolyte shifts, or intense nerve adjustments. It's often a sign of toxically, meaning the body resulting in, yeah, cramps, gas, diarrhea, muscle spasms.

• 1:55:57Dax Shepard?

  I will say, we talked about it in the episode, the, the two most humbling moments in alcohol addiction, which I've talked to many people, is that moment for me in the kitchen where I was like, oh, it's not a joke and, and I can't, I, I'm never gonna quit.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:12Dax Shepard?

  Um, that moment, but when you have violent DTs. You're like, could this really be happening?

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  So, okay, I feel stressed about, not stressed, but saying that because it's good because people need to have expectations, but I'm like, I'm nervous that that's enough to have people just never stop. Like, sometimes I think that. I'm like, oh, my God, if I stop, like, will I?

• 1:56:35Dax Shepard?

  You have stopped. You've quit for a month here and there.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  I know, but like, what if I had that and then I can't handle it and then I'm, I just don't want to see if it happens.

• 1:56:44Dax Shepard?

  No, you, you're not, you're not even, I don't think you're anywhere close to having DTs.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  Scared. Well, anyway, don't let the DTs stop you. Um, they're really like, those were the facts. There were really no facts. I mean, there were those facts.

• 1:56:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  That I just gave.

• 1:57:00Dax Shepard?

  I'm not surprised. I doubt you were either to find out that he had had a very high status girlfriend.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised. I obviously wanted to know who it was, but you know what? I respected his privacy and I didn't look it up.

• 1:57:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this guy's a killer. He's so sexy.

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  He's so nice.

• 1:57:15Dax Shepard?

  He's so sweet.

• 1:57:16Speaker 01

  So sweet and engaged. Like, he's, he's, he seems like a very nice boy.

• 1:57:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, they have like the X factor kind of attractiveness. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was lovely.

• 1:57:29Dax Shepard?

  Could imagine.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Good pair, good pair with Lily.

• 1:57:31Dax Shepard?

  Dynamite.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Okay, love you.

• 1:57:35Dax Shepard?

  Love you.