Pod Insights Armchair Expert with Dax Shepard Amir Levine (on attachment theory) About this episode Amir Levine (Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life, Attached) is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and author. Amir joins the Armchair Expert to discuss dispelling myths and misconceptions about attachment theory, how the love he has for his dog helped him to understand his relationship with his father, and the test experiments that showed how attachment styles develop in early childhood. Amir and Dax talk about why attachment is really just a radar of availability for other people, the reasons secure adult attachment is linked to our exploratory drive, and how a breakup was the catalyst that led him to co-write Attached. Amir explains the role a sense of reciprocity plays in shifting into secure attachment, the physiological and neurological responses involved as we evolve our attachments, and the beauty in appreciating the hidden sparks of talent in our loved ones.
Check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds: https://www.allstate.com/
Head to turbotax.com to find a store location near you and get matched with a TurboTax expert — with real-time updates in the iOS app.
This episode is sponsored by AppleTV. Learn more at: https://tinyurl.com/mr2caw2c
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 25,665 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dax Shepard? Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.
0:05 Speaker 01 Hi.
0:05 Dax Shepard? Hi, we have the author of an incredibly popular book.
0:09 Speaker 01 Yes.
0:10 Dax Shepard? Read by millions.
0:11 Speaker 01 Millions, indeed.
0:12 Dax Shepard? His first book was Attached, Amir Levine. He is a psychiatrist, a neuroscientist, and of course, a bestselling author, and he has a new book out, kind of answering as he talks about Attached, outline these different attachment styles, and then people were naturally curious, can I change mine?
0:29 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
0:30 Dax Shepard? And so his new book is to address that exact question. Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life. Please enjoy Dr. Amir Levine. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple TV, the new US home of Formula One. Starting March 7th, you can watch complete, all access, live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying, and sprints, all in one place. Watch every race live, only on Apple TV. We get support from Quince.
1:03 Speaker 01 I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.
1:12 Dax Shepard? I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a T-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince, because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.
1:35 Speaker 01 $60, $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories, they skip the middlemen, and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy, it's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.
1:53 Dax Shepard? The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time, and he looks iconic.
2:02 Speaker 01 It's a uniform.
2:03 Dax Shepard? Mm hmm.
2:04 Speaker 01 And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel-quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials. ...designed furniture, you can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home, too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.
2:21 Dax Shepard? Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that, too.
2:57 Speaker 01 That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs so the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop cold water every morning before anything else.
3:10 Dax Shepard? AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.
3:24 Speaker 01 That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.
3:28 Dax Shepard? It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm gonna tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know, mm, I'm gonna get that little vitamin buzz.
3:38 Speaker 01 Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.
3:45 Dax Shepard? Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Expert sent you.
4:26 Dax Shepard? Hi, Monty. How are you?
4:29 Speaker 01 I'm good.
4:30 Dax Shepard? Did you have a good weekend?
4:31 Speaker 01 I did have a good weekend.
4:32 Dax Shepard? Anything spectacular happen?
4:33 Speaker 01 Nothing spectacular, which is a good weekend.
4:37 Dax Shepard? Okay.
4:37 Speaker 01 You know, relaxing weekend. I'm moving this week.
4:41 Dax Shepard? Friday?
4:42 Speaker 01 I'm sleeping there on Friday.
4:44 Dax Shepard? Oh, my God. Monica's been building a house across the street for, what, five, six years?
4:48 Speaker 01 It'll be six years.
4:50 Speaker 02 Wow, congratulations.
4:51 Speaker 01 Thank you.
4:51 Speaker 02 That's amazing.
4:52 Speaker 01 Thank you. It's been a long time coming, so I am very excited. So this week is a big week, because there's a lot of, like, moving parts and getting this stuff over.
5:00 Dax Shepard? I wonder if any of your attachment theory stuff is coming up.
5:02 Speaker 01 Oh, I hope. I hope. I'm so obsessed with attachment theory. I'm so glad you're here, because I'm obsessed with it, and I don't think I really understand it. And I think a lot of people feel that way. Like, they reference attachment theory a lot, but I don't know if we're all doing it correctly.
5:17 Speaker 02 There's a lot of myths and misconceptions, for sure.
5:20 Speaker 01 Okay, great. Well, we're gonna learn.
5:21 Dax Shepard? Where are you from, Amir?
5:22 Speaker 02 Originally, I grew up in Jerusalem.
5:24 Dax Shepard? Okay. Do you find this to be true, that the Israelis, they tick up highest on the disagreeability category? We've had a lot of experts talk about that.
5:31 Speaker 02 Oh, that Israelis disagree a lot? Oh, yeah, it's part of our culture.
5:35 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, I like it.
5:36 Speaker 02 It took me time. What Americans would consider being rude?
5:38 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
5:39 Speaker 02 Is actually just normal way of speaking, like, they go like that, which is like, no, I don't agree with you.
5:44 Speaker 01 Right, like dismissing.
5:46 Speaker 02 So rude. No one would speak like that here.
5:50 Dax Shepard? Do you know Orna?
5:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:51 Dax Shepard? Does she work at NYU in some capacity?
5:53 Speaker 02 I think she does. I don't know her personally, but I know her work.
5:56 Dax Shepard? But you're at Columbia, as we're researching.
5:57 Speaker 02 I am in Columbia, yeah.
5:58 Dax Shepard? Well, we had her on, and I was saying to her, she has this wonderful gift of, she's endlessly hopeful and empathetic. And also, and I asked her, I'm like, is this the Israeli side? You can also, on a dime, be like, okay, disagreeable time. Like, you're very comfortable in the disagreeability.
6:17 Dax Shepard? I'd say I'm high on the disagreeability.
6:18 Speaker 02 Not only that, I think that's how I got into Columbia to do my residency there.
6:23 Dax Shepard? Really?
6:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, I went to medical school in Jerusalem and they said, don't bother. They don't take foreign medical graduates. And I said, okay, I'll just go and at least I'll get to talk to all these interesting researchers. And I read about the research and some of the people I knew about the research. Because usually you go and you go to grand rounds, you spend a day on the wards. And I said, no, I want to meet with the researchers.
6:42 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
6:42 Speaker 02 So then I met with one guy who seemed kind of like old and very non-threatening. And I knew about his work. So I told him how much I liked his work, but I could have been improved. There's all these like different shortcomings in his methodology. And it sort of went on and on.
6:59 Speaker 02 I was just like, what do I have to lose?
7:00 Dax Shepard? You had nothing to lose. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:02 Speaker 02 And at the end of it, he said, okay, I want you to meet with a few more people. He called a few more people around. It was the Department of Epidemiology. And they all got together and wrote a letter on my behalf to the head of the residency program.
7:14 Dax Shepard? Oh, no kidding?
7:14 Speaker 02 And that's how I got in.
7:15 Speaker 01 That's great.
7:16 Dax Shepard? Oh, I love that. Well, am I right, or at least to believe from this book, that you were originally definitely aiming at being a therapist of some variety?
7:26 Speaker 02 I still am a therapist.
7:27 Dax Shepard? Yes, yes, but the original site was set up.
7:30 Speaker 02 I was going to be a psychoanalyst. That's how I basically ended up where I am today in a completely unexpected way. Because back then, in order to become a psychoanalyst, you had to do a year of analysis before going into analytics school.
7:43 Dax Shepard? I love this.
7:44 Speaker 01 Personal analysis?
7:46 Speaker 02 Your own analysis.
7:47 Speaker 01 Oh.
7:47 Speaker 02 Like four times a week on the couch, talking or whatever, kind of they sit behind you, you don't see them.
7:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, wow.
7:53 Dax Shepard? Yeah, we've had numerous. In fact, we just had someone on who they themselves were a therapist. And they got to a point in their life where they had to return to therapy. And how much there can be a resistance to that, even from therapists?
8:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, Freud said that there's always resistance. It's kind of like built into the treatment.
8:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:10 Speaker 02 There's always all that part of the work as a therapist is working through those resistances.
8:14 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so during this year of therapy, you came to realize in some free association that you really still yearn for the biological.
8:22 Speaker 02 So I was going to do potentially epidemiological research, but then during that. Time I was looking for the kind of research that I wanted to do. And I got some advice and they said, you know, a researcher's life is a really hard life. A scientist's life is really hard. So you better choose something that you're really interested in because it's going to be a rough ride. And so I looked to see what I really liked. And I've always had an affinity to basic science and to molecular research. But I didn't really pursue molecular, I didn't have a PhD. But I really liked it and it was the analyst who said, well, maybe you should give it a try. But he didn't really know what it means. I didn't barely knew even how to hold it by pet.
8:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
8:59 Speaker 02 But I found this one paper that I really, really liked about long-term memory and how long-term memory is conserved. And epigenetic changes in the neurons in a plesia, which is a sea slug.
9:10 Dax Shepard? That has enormous neurons?
9:11 Speaker 02 Yes, huge neurons. And then I went and again, I guess that theme of going and talking. So I went and I talked to the last author on that paper, but he wasn't the one who masterminded it. So he listened to me for two minutes. It was Eric and Dale. And then he basically said, let's go up the floor. And we went, that's where I met James Schwartz, Jimmy, my first mentor. I basically talked to him a little bit about my thoughts again, the same thing about the research and the ideas that I had. Then he said, okay, we'll give you a try for three months and see how you fare. And then we'll see what happens after that. So there I was, going into the lab, which I've never imagined that I would do. Behind the bench, studying all these molecular experiments.
9:49 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
9:50 Speaker 01 Wow.
9:50 Dax Shepard? Now, do you think you had a primary question about life in humans? That you thought was going to be answered in psychoanalysis or the pursuit of it and the practice of it? And that you saw in this epigenome work, oh, maybe the answer lies over here. Or had that not even occurred to you yet? Do you think you had like a driving curiosity, like a primary question?
10:14 Speaker 02 I really did want to understand what makes human tick. And I really wanted to understand the brain better. But I don't think that at the time I had a specific idea. I've always had this thirst for knowledge, which maybe will explain why I did what I did. Because at that time I was almost done with my residency. It's been many years going through medical school and then coming here and doing another year of internship to, I had to do two years. I had to repeat a year of internship. Then I did adult psychiatry and then child psychiatry altogether another five years. So after doing all that training.
10:45 Dax Shepard? You were seventy one years old.
10:46 Speaker 01 Seriously, you're aging back.
10:48 Speaker 02 And when we think, okay, it's time to make money, right?
10:50 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
10:51 Speaker 02 You have to open up your private practice and start making money. And then, oh, wait a second. I still really want to learn more and I'm going to take a salary, which maybe is like a tenth of the amount, and just continue with my education and learning. But I didn't even think about it that way at the time. Now, looking back, I can see, whoa, these are important years where you could have saved money for retirement. It didn't occur to me at all. I just really wanted that pursuit of knowledge. That's what I did. I went to the lab and then for many, many years, I did a lot of molecular biology work.
11:21 Dax Shepard? Okay, so I'll overshare with you. So I ended up doing anthro and I really think about why I did anthropology. I think I was immediately drawn to the fact that, oh, there's a lot of different ways you can live. And I think that was comforting because I felt like with the single mom and all these other things, that we didn't click so well with the culture I inherited. And then so I was quite critical of the culture I inherited. And I wanted to know, do we have any basis to think that this is the way we should do things? So I guess I'm wondering for you, can you think of any kind of primary angst?
11:57 Speaker 02 Definitely the pursuit of knowledge is a huge one. And I grew up in that environment. I had a very unusual upbringing. My mom had an even more unusual upbringing. The education that she received, it was very, very progressive. They didn't care about grades at all. They didn't have exams. They just would give them comments about what they did. Yeah, and so she lived in a kibbutz, so it's like a commune. So they had to work a lot, also agriculturally. They didn't live with their parents. So they wanted everyone to be equal, so they sort of separated. It's kind of crazy.
12:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
12:28 Speaker 02 So she came from a very, very unusual upbringing. But I grew up in Jerusalem. I grew up with my parents.
12:34 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
12:34 Speaker 02 But she also, she didn't believe in grades and she didn't really care about school so much. So I could actually stay home whenever I wanted from school. And I did. I stayed home a lot and we had this huge library and I would read a lot. It was completely uncensored. Seven, I would read the Kama Sutra. I was trying to make sense of it.
12:51 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
12:52 Speaker 02 Different books that I read at the time that I could barely understand, but I just read them anyway. And especially on days when we had exams, I didn't have to go because she didn't believe in exams.
13:02 Dax Shepard? It's crazy, you ever went to medical school?
13:05 Speaker 02 It was very unusual. And whenever we would come home, so we would read together. It was a very rich intellectual environment. And my mom, she was the editor of the equivalent of Scientific American.
13:16 Dax Shepard? Oh, no kidding.
13:17 Speaker 02 So there's also a lot of talk about science and popular science. So here's why I ended up also writing popular science and popular psychology. I really grew up with it.
13:26 Dax Shepard? And by the way, I would say in probably the best motivated way possible, which is like intrinsically, it's not about getting the good grade. It's not about getting the test right. Knowledge for knowledge's sake.
13:37 Speaker 02 Also to think about something original, something that can make people think differently or look at things differently.
13:44 Dax Shepard? Were your parents divorced?
13:45 Speaker 02 They're not divorced. Very, very long relationship. You're asking because I didn't mention my dad yet.
13:49 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
13:50 Speaker 02 If you're asking about a motivation to understand human behavior.
13:54 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
13:54 Speaker 02 They're completely opposites, my mom and my dad. My mom was a single child who came from an Ashkenazi European ancestry, Jewish ancestry. My dad was a Sephardic Jew. They had 10 siblings, came from a very poor family. And he never even finished the fifth grade.
14:12 Dax Shepard? Wow.
14:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, he had horrible ADHD. He was bouncing. Whenever the teacher would come into the classroom, he was like, you out.
14:19 Dax Shepard? Get off your desk and leave the classroom.
14:21 Speaker 02 By the fifth grade, he was done with the formal education. But he was a very smart person and very, very unusual person also. Exactly the opposite of this progressive.
14:29 Dax Shepard? Even high on the disagreeability scale within?
14:32 Speaker 02 Completely high on the disagreeability scale. Like off the charts.
14:37 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
14:38 Speaker 02 Can I tell you what he did once we were at the hotel? I don't remember who the president was. The president of the United States was visiting. He was there with all of his entourage and everyone surrounding him. They're all wearing the suits and I got nervous. So I kind of like clutched on to my dad's hand. And he said, you have nothing to be afraid of. Here, they're all humans, just like you. Let me show you something.
14:59 Dax Shepard? Oh, boy.
14:59 Speaker 02 And he took out a quarter and he flipped it in the air and then he fell on the marble floor and he made like this little sound. And they were all looking down to see what had fell. It was like an instinct. And you see, you see, we're all the same.
15:12 Dax Shepard? Oh, I love that example. I thought he was gonna do something wild. And one hit the president? Yeah.
15:21 Speaker 01 This is a weird question, but were you embarrassed by him? Cause he was so different?
15:26 Speaker 02 We were so different. I think it took me many, many years to now really more understand what was going on in that relationship. It was not an easy relationship. For many, many years, I saw it from really my point of view of like, he was really difficult, stubborn, everything had to be done his way. Sort of like the opposite of what my mom was.
15:44 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah.
15:45 Speaker 02 Like with him, if I didn't make it to school, that was a big deal. Thankfully, he wasn't around a lot and that's how I was able to get away with it. But if he were around, eventually he let my mom do whatever she wanted to do.
15:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah.
15:55 Speaker 02 But he was very, very difficult. Later on, and actually that's part of why I even wrote this new book, Secure, because all of my understanding and everything that I understood about our relationship really shifted. And I see it now from a more secure place.
16:09 Dax Shepard? Because he was more an avoidant.
16:10 Speaker 02 Oh gosh, he was definitely somewhat avoidant and I think also somewhat fearful avoidant. Sort of like a mixture of it.
16:17 Dax Shepard? Now that we know a lot more about ADHD, the rigidity in the game plan, how much different that is for his experience and your mom's or other people's.
16:26 Speaker 02 Definitely.
16:26 Dax Shepard? Maybe a little compassion.
16:27 Speaker 02 I have so much more compassion to him now. And then because of this whole process that I went through in understanding how to look at the world more securely. And that has helped me so much because yes, he was difficult, but I was not easy either. And I was this smart ass kid who was really highly educated, was reading all these books.
16:46 Dax Shepard? Belittled him.
16:48 Speaker 02 Yes.
16:48 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
16:49 Speaker 02 And corrected his language and was like, do all these things.
16:52 Dax Shepard? Triggered his insecurities.
16:53 Speaker 02 Yes, constantly.
16:54 Dax Shepard? Yeah. Isn't it so sad that we realized this all, is your dad gone? Mine is?
16:59 Speaker 02 He's gone, yeah.
17:00 Dax Shepard? Yeah, mine too. And I'm like, I just hate that I now have all this compassion for him. Cause I was the great challenger of him as well in my household.
17:09 Speaker 01 Kids, that's almost part of their role. They are there to challenge. It's normal.
17:15 Speaker 02 But he can get vicious.
17:17 Speaker 01 I know, it can, trust me, I know.
17:19 Dax Shepard? For me, it's just sad. It's like, here's this man on earth that had this boy he clearly loved and I could have adored him more and that would have filled him up more. And that was on the table for me to do and I didn't for all my many reasons. That's a bummer.
17:31 Speaker 02 It sounded like karma gets you eventually. So now I have this little dog who's really, really cute. But he likes me, but he always growls at me. He has a contentious relationship with me.
17:42 Dax Shepard? He's you.
17:42 Speaker 02 Yes, basically. And I see how much I love this dog. And that also helped me. And again, it's those secure shifts that I've had in my understanding of myself and my life that really helped change how I see things. And so now I understand, wow, my dad really loved me. Because I see how much I love this dog, even though he's so mean to me.
18:01 Speaker 01 Right, right.
18:03 Speaker 02 And I'm like, yeah, my dad really loved me. Because even though I was mean to him, I know that he did. But then I had this idea, like, how did he feel about me when I was behaving towards him in that way? And now I know, because I can feel it inside me.
18:14 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah. I don't even think it's ever anger, it's just kind of hurt.
18:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:18 Dax Shepard? It's just even sadder.
18:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:20 Dax Shepard? You know, it's just angry about. Okay, so at some point in your 65 years in academia and residency and all this stuff, you yourself come across attachment theory. And you're learning about it. So just give us a, as brief as possible, explanation of attachment theory, which started maybe in the 50s or something?
18:39 Speaker 02 Yes, I came across adult attachment theory by chance. When you learn to become a psychiatrist, psychologist, you know about childhood attachment. But I didn't know that adults have attachment styles and that they attach. During that time when we worked in attachment therapy with kids and their mothers, I loved it so much, so I read everything that there was about it. That's where I came across adult attachment. There's the anxious, avoidant and secure and fearful avoidant. And at the time, I was going through a breakup and it explained so much.
19:07 Dax Shepard? Right.
19:07 Speaker 02 It felt like a light bulb went in my head. And like, wow, now I understand what went down in this relationship, why it didn't work out and what also happened in other relationships. And so basically, do we really need to understand about these attachment styles?
19:22 Dax Shepard? Yeah, let's start with the children.
19:24 Speaker 02 So with children, the way that it works, Bowlby is the founder of attachment theory. And he had this idea that wasn't prevalent at the time, because Freud always thought that we attach to our mothers and fathers. Freud blames the mother a lot. We attach to the mother because she gives us sustenance and food, and it's a byproduct of that. But then Bowlby, who actually worked with children, because Freud didn't... Didn't really work with children.
19:47 Dax Shepard? No, he did coke and sat in his room and thought.
19:50 Speaker 02 Pretty much. He actually said, no, I beg to differ because he saw what happens when children get all of their material needs met, but they were not giving the attachment that they needed. And so he said, no, attachment is a basic need, just like food and water. It's not a byproduct. It's something that we need. And then there's the Harlow experiments that show even in monkeys, how much they really need.
20:13 Dax Shepard? These poor little monkeys clinging to a claw.
20:15 Speaker 02 Instead of the wired mother versus the cloth mother. The wired mother gave food and the cloth mother, it was just a piece of cloth.
20:22 Dax Shepard? Gave intimacy, basically.
20:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, but it was cold and metal, but there was this cloth and the monkeys went to the cloth.
20:27 Speaker 01 Oh, no.
20:28 Dax Shepard? At the expense of food.
20:29 Speaker 02 They would eat a little bit and then sort of go to the cloth. But remember what he said, because we don't really understand it so much in adulthood. And Bobby did say that attachment starts in birth, actually starts before and then goes on until we die. And I would argue even after, here we were talking about our fathers.
20:43 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, great point.
20:45 Speaker 02 Basically, he said that, but then came Mary Answorth, who was more of an experimental psychologist. So brilliant. She discovered these attachment styles, anxious, avoidant and secure in children in something that's called the strange situation test.
21:00 Speaker 01 Ooh, tell us.
21:01 Dax Shepard? Tell us.
21:01 Speaker 02 So the strange situation test, it's basically you bring a toddler and their caregiver into a room full of toys and you watch them through a one-way mirror. You can see it on YouTube. It's really remarkable. You bring them in, the child sees the toys immediately, uh, uh, I want to play, I want to play. Starts pointing at things. They rush over, start playing, and then they ask the caregiver to leave the room. Immediately they drop what they're doing, they sort of run to the door, they start banging on the door, crying. And then they ask the mother, the caregiver, to come back to the room. And it's in that reunion, that moment where Mary Answorth identified the three attachments fell, the anxious, avoidant and secure.
21:41 Speaker 02 And it's remarkable to see, it's basically how effective is that bond in regulating the child's emotion.
21:49 Speaker 01 Oh, interesting.
21:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it's very important, actually, that co-regulation is so important and also translates to adulthood. So then I'm sort of stressing. I'm like really making a point of it.
21:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
21:59 Speaker 02 So basically, the secure bond, the mother picks them up. And immediately, it's just like magic, they just calm down right away. And then, and start pointing at the toys, wanting to engage again. Anxious, not so much.
22:12 Speaker 01 What happens? What do they do?
22:13 Speaker 02 It just takes a long time to calm them down. Sometimes they calm down and then start crying again. It's called the calm on calm paradigm. So the bond is not as effective in regulating their emotions. And the avoidant, sometimes they don't even cry. Or even they do a little bit, they stay limp in the mother's hands.
22:30 Dax Shepard? Is it fair to say they're pissed at the caregiver?
22:33 Speaker 02 So you think, oh, sometimes they look like, I don't care, whatever. But when you look at their blood pressure, their pulse, it's through the roof.
22:38 Speaker 01 Wow.
22:39 Speaker 02 So they're blocking their attachment needs. But at the same time, they're alone in trying to regulate the emotions. They don't know how to utilize the bond to regulate their emotions.
22:50 Speaker 01 Right. Oh, interesting.
22:51 Speaker 02 So it all has to do with how good are people, children and then adults, in using others to regulate their feelings and emotions?
22:59 Dax Shepard? Do we know what the contributing factors are that end up in an anxious attachment versus the avoidant attachment? Are there patterns within that parenting style that produce that outcome?
23:11 Speaker 02 That's a very good question. And we do know a little bit. It's kind of like the wild field.
23:16 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
23:16 Speaker 02 Because apparently, there's something that's called the adult attachment interview. There's same attachment styles in adulthood, but they have nothing to do with the other attachment styles, the more romantic ones, or in their other relationships. It has more to do how we remember our childhood. Not so much the memories themselves, but how we narrate our childhood. There's the adult attachment interview. It gets scored by psychologists. And that can predict to some degree the attachment style of the child. So how well, if you're very structured in your narration of your past, then the child will be more secure in the strange situation test.
23:51 Speaker 01 If the parent is?
23:52 Speaker 02 Yes, yes.
23:52 Speaker 01 Oh, wild.
23:53 Speaker 02 Yes, it's pretty wild.
23:55 Dax Shepard? So if they have a pretty coherent, chronological story of their own life?
24:01 Speaker 02 That makes sense.
24:02 Dax Shepard? That's coherent, makes sense. Odds are they're going to have a More secure.
24:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's better chances. Again, nothing in this is like one to one ever.
24:11 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
24:13 Speaker 02 But does predict to some degree the child attachment style. And then if you're avoidant, then if you're like, oh, my God, I had the most amazing childhood. But then actually, when you talk about the memories, there's sort of like a discrepancy.
24:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
24:25 Speaker 02 Then the child is more avoidant and the anxious jump around from one topic to another. But I still don't really know what to make of it.
24:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah, right. This is very hard. So now, tell me how you, you're going through a breakup, you're learning about this.
24:39 Speaker 02 Lo and behold, adults also have these attachment styles, anxious, avoidant and secure. Only we don't play with toys like that anymore. But it has to do with our attitudes towards closeness and intimacy on one hand. And then on the other hand, how sensitive of a radar do we have for infractions in the relationship? And what I mean from an attachment perspective is when all of a sudden we feel that the other person is not available to us. Because attachment is really a radar of availability of other people. It's a safety system. People think it's such a deep thing about bonding. It really is a very rudimentary safety system. It's how we feel safe in the world. And so we survey the environment and we kind of have an idea in our mind.
25:21 Speaker 02 And you two probably also have an idea in your mind where your loved ones are and that they're okay. But if I were to tell you that, God forbid, and I even hate saying that, there's something that happened somewhere. You won't be able to continue to have this conversation. You'd have to stop and immediately check to see that they're okay. So we have this surveillance system going in the back of our head all the time. People with an anxious attachment style, their surveillance system can pick up on very subtle changes of that availability and potential threat. But the research also shows that it's not the only thing they're very good at picking up. They're picking up on picking a lot of different social cues. There is a downside to it, but it also comes with a huge upside. Let's say if you're, and I've seen it so many times with patients and just in people in the world.
26:05 Speaker 02 Like if you're better at day trading, can sort of really see subtle changes that other people won't be able to detect. They're just very, very good at detecting. And then also one then questions, and that's what I. Really try to do in this book is turn around that whole causality thing because oftentimes people blame their parents for their adult attachment style and it's completely wrong. But think about how hard it is to raise a child that has that level of ability, really superpowers to pick up cues from the environment.
26:33 Dax Shepard? It can be a little stressful.
26:34 Speaker 02 For all parties involved.
26:36 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:37 Speaker 02 I gave an example in the chapter because I really was trying to look for an example that people would understand. No, it's not only about danger. It's not only about sort of like bad things. True, they can also identify danger. But in the book, I give an example about a woman who has an adopted daughter and she takes her to the first day of school. She starts playing with another girl there that she also finds out is adopted. And then all of a sudden she stops and like, I can't believe I'm seeing this. These girls are sisters. And she saw like in their facial expression, they weren't exactly the same, but you could sort of detect the similarities in their sort of facial structure, in the way that they smile, the way that they move. And she started talking to other people and there's no way, no one believed her.
27:19 Dax Shepard? The odds are staggering.
27:20 Speaker 01 Right.
27:20 Speaker 02 Exactly, but she kept at it. And lo and behold, they actually are sisters.
27:26 Speaker 01 Wow.
27:27 Dax Shepard? And what did she do with that information?
27:28 Speaker 02 These two sisters are bonded. She found her daughter, her sister. I think it's years later and they're as close as ever. So it's really a good story.
27:36 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
27:36 Speaker 01 Wow.
27:37 Dax Shepard? You're right, though. We tend to pathologize every single thing that we know about. And it's like, all these things are trade offs. They all come with some benefit or you wouldn't have gotten to this point.
27:46 Speaker 02 I'm glad that you said that because I would say that my biggest mission in this book, for people to realize that attachment, and that's one of the biggest misconceptions. And when you look on social media, that people equate anxious and avoidant with pathology. That's why I'm so drawn to the science. Because attachment, it doesn't come from the medical model of pathology and healing and curing pathology. It actually comes from social psychology and the neurodevelopmental model. So the question is not about what's wrong and how we can cure it or heal it. It's more about, is it effective or is it not effective? Is the bond effective in regulating the emotions? Is it working for you or is it not working for you?
28:24 Dax Shepard? Is it servicing your goals or not?
28:26 Speaker 02 From an attachment perspective, it's specifically, are you able to use this, it's something that's called a secure base? Is it giving you a secure base? Because the point of view of relationships from an attachment perspective, remember, it's like a safety mechanism. It's for you actually to fade into the background. So you know, in the strange situation, when the child wants to play with all these toys, and every once in a while, looks back to see if the mother is there. That's the point of a relationship. So we can kind of like check to see if they're there, but not to think about you that much. So you to be in the background, so we don't play with toys, but we have hobbies, we have careers, we parent, we have all these different things. So attachment is really linked to our exploratory drive. When we feel safe, we can explore.
29:10 Speaker 02 So it's more related to that.
29:12 Dax Shepard? OK, so to bring everyone up to speed. So you wrote with Helen Attached, which was applying this attachment theory to adults and specifically romantic.
29:21 Speaker 02 Right, because that's what it was initially about.
29:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah, and so this book is enormously successful. And it also has a very peculiar trajectory as a book in that it's kind of hockey shaped in its distribution. Didn't it just continue to swell over time? And there were some interesting catalysts like COVID and TikTok?
29:39 Speaker 02 Initially, when we wrote the book, we had this running joke between us that it's only going to sell one copy to the Library of Congress.
29:46 Dax Shepard? They have to mandate it to get it.
29:48 Speaker 02 I went through this breakup and she's my childhood friend. And so instead of just, you know, how you talk about breakups incessantly. So I said, you know what? Instead of sort of wasting all that energy about talking about the breakup, let's make something good about it.
30:00 Dax Shepard? Can I ask what your style was? Was it anxious?
30:03 Speaker 02 With this person, yes. It wasn't so much anxious, I didn't understand what was going on. And then that goes to this idea, like all these myths that we have. If you don't know about attachment theory, we have this idea that everybody loves the same. But science doesn't show that everybody loves the same. We love very differently if we're anxious, avoidant, insecure. We haven't even gone to it yet. Because we'll get to it in a moment, but we love very, very differently. So for me, I was more like the anxious, secure part. And then it was certainly driven more towards anxious when the other person stopped responding on. They said, you know, when I really like someone, I actually think about. Getting on a plane and moving away to the West Coast. And for me, it didn't make any sense because why would you want to do that? If you really like someone, don't you want to see a future together?
30:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:45 Speaker 02 Don't you want to think about being together? But avoidance, they don't like too much closeness. And oftentimes, when they feel too much closeness, they want to bulk, they want to run away. But I didn't know that, that that's 25% of the population.
30:56 Speaker 01 God.
30:57 Speaker 02 That it's scary for them, that it means that they feel a loss of independence.
31:01 Dax Shepard? I'll add a layer, because I think when I was younger, I probably, you'll be the first to acknowledge it. But like, these are all spectrum categories.
31:08 Speaker 02 This new book is really emphasizing.
31:10 Dax Shepard? And also, we are very fluid and context dependent, so I'm.
31:14 Speaker 02 Relationship dependent.
31:15 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I'm one way here, I'm one way there. But if I had to say what I leaned more towards, it's actually zero fear of intimacy. Being close, that felt wonderful. But I would be immediately overwhelmed with the responsibility of that. And then this fear, almost in an OCD way, well, if I have to break up with this person, this is going to be so painful. And I'm now so afraid of this responsibility of potentially hurting this person, that now I'm starting to feel a little trapped by it.
31:42 Speaker 02 So yeah, it's a version of avoidance.
31:43 Dax Shepard? There's all these hues of it.
31:44 Speaker 02 It is, yeah, exactly. You weren't afraid by the physical closeness?
31:48 Dax Shepard? Or even the emotional.
31:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, you weren't afraid by that.
31:50 Dax Shepard? None of it scared me.
31:52 Speaker 02 Somehow it felt like, whoa, this is a big responsibility. Definitely a tinge of avoidance there. And also, I listened to some of your podcasts. I saw also there were moments of change. And I really put a lot of emphasis in this book of those small moments of change. I think, Monica, you brought it up in one of the podcasts about sort of the glass of water story that you used to have.
32:11 Dax Shepard? Oh, yeah, yeah.
32:12 Speaker 01 Oh, with Kristen.
32:13 Speaker 02 Yes.
32:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:14 Speaker 02 That it's like, why should I get her? Like, no, she should get it herself.
32:17 Dax Shepard? Sitting here.
32:17 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. But no, why should I do that? And then I was like, potentially, what does it mean?
32:23 Dax Shepard? What pattern am I setting now? Is it for the rest of my life, I'll be waiting on this person?
32:27 Speaker 02 Right, exactly.
32:28 Speaker 01 Or I'm getting taken advantage of.
32:30 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
32:30 Speaker 01 That type of thing.
32:31 Dax Shepard? And then the leap of faith of, no, actually, hold on. Do I think this person is someone who will exploit and take advantage of me? Because I'm nice this one time? And then that was the kind of the breakthrough, was like, no, I don't think this person is that way. I don't need to have this fear.
32:46 Speaker 02 Moment that shift, that's exactly how our brain changes towards greater security. I love that example. That's what I thought I would bring it up because it's such an important. It seems like, oh yeah, but it's really, it's a major shift for our brain. So you were able to use what we call metacognition, which is like thinking about a thought. And hopefully you got up and got the glass of water.
33:04 Dax Shepard? I did, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I haven't minded. But then it starts all over again when you have kids. Am I setting them up for a pattern that I think is untenable for their life?
33:13 Speaker 02 I heard that. Maybe you mentioned something about when they call from the kitchen.
33:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:19 Speaker 02 It was like they fall, something happened in the kitchen. It's like, oh, I don't want to get up. And then eventually, no, but maybe I should. And sometimes you do, and sometimes you don't, but you've evolved.
33:30 Speaker 03 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
33:35 Dax Shepard? Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Apple TV, the new US home of Formula One. You can now watch complete all access live coverage of every Grand Prix, including practice, qualifying and sprints, all in one place. I will be consuming all of those things, Monica.
33:50 Speaker 01 I know you will.
33:51 Dax Shepard? I'd kill for Friday to start watching practice one, following it on a sprint weekend. Oh my gosh, two races. And this season brings a ton of new energy to the sport. New teams like Cadillac and Audi just joining the grid. New drivers stepping into major seats. Lando Norris defending his first World Drivers Championship. And all eyes on Lewis Hamilton in his second season with Ferrari in a brand new circuit in Madrid. Plus, a new US home for Formula One. You can watch every race live only on Apple TV. Watch on Apple devices, Android devices, smart TVs, streaming devices, gaming consoles, or on the web at tv.apple.com. All part of one Apple TV subscription alongside hundreds of exclusive shows and movies.
34:33 Dax Shepard? Watch the Formula One Chinese Grand Prix live on Sunday, March 15th at 3 a.m. Eastern, or watch race replays on demand anytime only on Apple TV. The new US home of F1. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking which platform you watch that new show on. So frustrating. 15 minutes later, you've logged into seven apps, reset two passwords and still haven't found it. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.
35:15 Dax Shepard? We are supported by Intuit TurboTax. April 15th is coming up fast. And if you're like most people, you're probably dreading the whole tax thing. You know, the old way, sitting in some waiting room for hours or sending over your tax docs and waiting and waiting for any kind of update. You want something modern and tech forward, but you also want that human connection. And this year brings a major upgrade. Intuit TurboTax now has in-person locations nationwide. You can walk into a tech-enabled TurboTax location near you and meet face-to-face with a real tax expert. Drop off your documents in the store and see them uploaded to your TurboTax app instantly. Just like that, you're done.
35:57 Dax Shepard? Your new TurboTax expert stays back and works tirelessly to get you every dollar you deserve while you get real-time notifications as you go about your day. Honestly, it feels like someone finally figured out what we've all been wanting. It's not some sterile tax office from 1987. And it's not just an app where you're on your own. It's both. The human expertise with smart, modern tech. You drop off your stuff, go about your day and get real-time updates as your expert works through everything. That's the upgrade. Head to TurboTax.com to find a store location near you and get matched with a TurboTax expert with real-time updates and iOS app. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace,
36:42 Dax Shepard? and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skillset, a body of work, and it's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there. And that transition from private It to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step. Beautiful templates, built in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from I've been working on this to here it is, come find me. All in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools.
37:26 Dax Shepard? So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to squarespace.com slash DAX for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.
37:47 Dax Shepard? As I always say, it's like my life now is stepping over the many bad thoughts I have in route to who I want to be. But they're going to come up every time. It's like, oh, that's that thing. That's that.
37:57 Speaker 02 The thing of what I'm trying to sort of really show in this book is that it's not necessarily a bad thought. It's more like this belief that every person should take care of themselves. And it's not a bad belief, it's just a belief. We then assign it blame or bad or sort of even give it a potential causal mechanism. But if we just examine it phenomenologically for what it is, it's a belief. And then you say, but is it working for me or is it not working for me?
38:21 Speaker 01 But some people could be in that exact same situation and probably have an anxious attachment.
38:27 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
38:27 Speaker 01 You know, so it's like, it's not like one equals this, a different person in that exact same environment.
38:33 Dax Shepard? Well, your genetics are hugely in the mix too, right?
38:36 Speaker 02 Yes, of course, because there's so many different parameters that go into this mix. So you're right, some people will actually say, well, because I didn't have a mother that doted on me. Now I have all these issues and now I can detect threat when someone tries to pull away because I can identify it.
38:52 Dax Shepard? Right. Yeah, it looks so familiar. I know what this looks like.
38:55 Speaker 01 I think I have anxious.
38:57 Dax Shepard? I wasn't going to self diagnose you, but yeah, I mean, look, the way you would pray for your family members.
39:02 Speaker 01 A lot of fear.
39:04 Dax Shepard? Superstition, if I miss this prayer, they're gonna die.
39:07 Speaker 01 But that's not really attachment, or is it?
39:09 Speaker 02 I think it's more about how effective is the bond between you two? Like if you reach out to them. How quickly can you calm down? Anxious attachment is not necessarily just having separation attachment. It's more about being afraid that the bond, that you're not going to be loved as much as you want to be loved, that other people will leave you, that other people will fail you.
39:31 Speaker 01 I do have that, but I don't know why.
39:33 Dax Shepard? But it's more peer derived than parental.
39:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's weird because I don't have that at all with my parents.
39:40 Dax Shepard? But her otherness in her peer group.
39:42 Speaker 02 So that's the beauty and that's why I really wanted to, I mean, look, 15 years has passed with my last book and a lot of new information was discovered about attachment. And I really found that there's a potential here to help people flourish. And actually, after I finished writing the book, then all these people started coming to me asking, okay, help me become more secure. But I didn't have an immediate answer for that because we never really learned about it in the clinical world. Basically, Rachel and I took it from papers and tried to breathe clinical life into it. But I didn't have an immediate answer to how you become more secure. And then the answer came over time, from the lab, actually, not from my work, from understanding the brain.
40:22 Dax Shepard? Not from cocaine use in your study?
40:29 Speaker 02 But really from understanding the brain.
40:31 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so the first book helped you understand your attachment style. And then people want to know, well, how do I change it?
40:38 Speaker 02 Right.
40:38 Dax Shepard? Right, and now this book, Secure, is going to help us change into a secure attachment.
40:44 Speaker 02 As a neuroscientist, it's the kind of therapy I wish I could go into with people know more about the brain because most therapies, they haven't been updated. Some of it is not the blame of the therapies because the NIH doesn't really sponsor that much studies about new therapies. But there's so much more that we know about the brain. It's kind of like the kind of therapy that me as a neuroscientist would want to have, but it didn't exist. And so over time, I didn't have this grandiose idea, oh, I'm going to create it. But it just, over time, just happened on its own and I created these tools. And the whole idea is if you know that a part of your life is much more secure than others, that certain relationships are much more secure, then why not then really increase the volume on that part of your life? And just like shift the attachment. Tension and the focus to sort of create a more secure life.
41:30 Speaker 02 And that really changes the brain on such a fundamental level.
41:33 Dax Shepard? What you do is you merge together three different fields. You're kind of, you've all harari this. You're like, you're doing the neuroscience, you're doing the clinical psychology, you're doing.
41:44 Speaker 02 The attachment.
41:45 Dax Shepard? The attachment and you're creating what you would call now.
41:48 Speaker 02 The secure priming therapy, but it's not only therapy and coaching, but it's also the way I started creating it. Actually, I started creating a course for high school. Anybody could learn. I had a student and she wanted to do some sort of a science exhibit on the social brain. And she asked me, what would be the most important lessons? And I came up with five and then actually like three of them made it into the book. And it was the things that I thought would be the most beneficial for people to know. And then I thought, oh, I can actually make a course out of this where people can actually learn. If you really believe that you should only count on yourself, that's not a bad thought necessarily. Or it's not a pathology, but it's really more to explain about how the brain responds to exclusion. Our brain hates exclusion and I call it the cyberball effect.
42:34 Speaker 02 And then I developed an antidote to it. How do we sort of then create the opposite because our brains loves hyper inclusion or hyper connectedness? How do we then orchestrate that in our everyday life? So these are the three lessons that I started the book with.
42:47 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so you talk about the science of the brain in part one. So what do we need to understand about how the brain works?
42:54 Speaker 02 So our brain loads exclusion. That was like the most important thing that I would start with. I called it the sabable effect. The biggest thing is safety because we're not descendants of eagles or elephants.
43:05 Dax Shepard? Leopards.
43:05 Speaker 02 Or lions. Yeah, we're not. We're like these like primates who lived for a long time in the middle of the food chain. And it was only when I was on a safari in Africa.
43:14 Dax Shepard? You realize how fucking vulnerable we are.
43:16 Speaker 02 Because we went, they took us, most of the time we're in those like vehicles and you feel it's okay, even though one time an elephant started charging it at us, it was pretty scary. But the one time, we walked outside in the wild.
43:27 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
43:28 Speaker 02 But they had a guy with a rifle behind us and a guy with a rifle in front of us. And we had to keep a single file and at no point could we have actually opened the gap. And if we did, they would tell us immediately, close the gap. And then I realized, wow, when we were there, there's no people with rifles in the front. And then it's not about just like, oh, I like being hyper included. It's so nice. I love it. It's so comfy and warm and cozy. It's more of like, if you're excluded, then you can fall prey at any second.
43:55 Dax Shepard? You're dead.
43:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're dead.
43:56 Dax Shepard? It's life or death.
43:57 Speaker 02 And the fact that we're all close to each other here, for example, now. So if a predator came, I have 66% of survival better than if I were by myself because they're gonna go after you.
44:07 Speaker 01 Right.
44:07 Dax Shepard? No, Rob's fucked. He's gonna get picked off back there behind that wall.
44:11 Speaker 01 Well, no, not if they come in this way, then he'll run out that door and he'll be safe.
44:15 Dax Shepard? And they're...
44:16 Speaker 02 And that doesn't take into account the fact that we can warn each other, we can try to fight them off together.
44:21 Dax Shepard? We have a 360 degree view right now between our combined perspectives.
44:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, so we can alert each other, we can use all of our senses to help each other, all of which happens. And you see it in so many different social animals. Even you see it in social birds, peck, peck, peck all the time. And every once in a while, they swoop up, they look for food and then to look to see are they gonna be prey. But then, if they have more birds around, they will swoop up, they will look up a lot less. Their brain computes it into the mix. And our brains also compute it into the mix. You're not in New York, but like, walking into an empty subway car in the middle of the night, eh, I don't know if I would do that. I would go to the subway car because there's more people.
44:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:57 Speaker 02 Or like an empty alley, we instinctively feel it. It's a safety thing.
45:01 Dax Shepard? You intuitively do that math. The birds know like, oh, there's three of us. I should be looking up a third of the time, even though they don't know that.
45:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly.
45:08 Dax Shepard? And there's a hundred, so it's like, oh, I only gotta look up 1% of the time.
45:11 Speaker 02 Because it was hugely advantageous to do that. And then those who didn't get that social monitoring sort of upgrade, they couldn't really compete. There was such a huge advantage.
45:19 Dax Shepard? They got picked off.
45:19 Speaker 02 Because they were constantly looking up and they were all eating while they were looking up.
45:23 Dax Shepard? And then we get into so much fun stuff. It's like the birth of lying comes from There are calls for chimpanzees to say leopard and this and that.
45:30 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah.
45:31 Dax Shepard? And they would make a fake call so they could go fuck the high-status female while the alpha was looking over here.
45:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, it becomes very intricate in humans and also in other social and also even in some birds. We have an upgrade to that system because we compare ourselves to others. And there's a whole chapter involved to why we compare and why we can't help it. But part of our ability to compare, it's really about assessing the other. Are they stronger than me or are they not stronger than me? But also, we have this upgrade that we can determine, are they gonna work well with me or not?
46:00 Speaker 01 Right.
46:01 Speaker 02 And that ability to compare, to evaluate, it's key for us as humans.
46:05 Dax Shepard? This is theory of mind stuff, yeah?
46:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:07 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I can think about how you're thinking. I can assess your thoughts.
46:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, and are you gonna be there for me? Yeah, I can get her a cup of water because she probably has my back and she'll also get me a cup of water later.
46:18 Dax Shepard? It'll be reciprocal.
46:19 Speaker 02 So we have that ability to assess and that's a key part in becoming more secure. And I even have a questionnaire. There's like, oh, assess how good is your collaboration? And then also rate how close you are to different people. And then see, are those really good collaborations also the people that are closest to you? Because if not, maybe you wanna think about changing your priorities, your relationship priorities, in the process of becoming more secure.
46:44 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
46:45 Speaker 01 Interesting.
46:46 Dax Shepard? Yeah, cyberball effect.
46:47 Speaker 02 Right, so the cyberball effect is based on the cyberball experiment. And basically what happens, you're playing a game of catch with two other people on a video game, a very rudimentary video game, two-dimensional. And all of a sudden, they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And the brain hates it and psychologically, we hate it. You see areas of like pain, distress, self-scrutiny in the brain, they all sort of like light up.
47:14 Dax Shepard? The amygdala's on fire, is that what's happening?
47:16 Speaker 02 Parts of the amygdala, other areas of self-scrutiny. It's all like threat and what's happening and why is it happening? Potentially also pain, not too different from physical pain. It's very, very distressing. And psychologically, they looked and they found that certain domains are being affected. But I personally was very surprised by it. Like, we feel that life is less meaningful, less... In control of our life and less self esteem.
47:39 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
47:40 Dax Shepard? And less self esteem.
47:41 Speaker 02 Yes, so things that I always thought my my self esteem is not related to or how much control I have over my life or that life is meaningful. Why does it matter to who is interacting with me? It's things that come from within. They don't come from within.
47:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:56 Speaker 02 And they found the opposite of the Sablewell effect. When you actually put the person in the middle and now I'm in the middle and I'm throwing the ball to you, you'll throw it back to me. I'm throwing it to you, you're throwing it to me. I'm hyper included now. So basically you see the opposite. You feel that life is more meaningful. You feel more self esteem and you feel greater control in your life. So these are amazing things that we can create by hyper inclusion. But then the question is, how do you create that?
48:20 Speaker 01 Right.
48:20 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
48:20 Speaker 01 How do we?
48:23 Speaker 01 Teach us.
48:24 Speaker 02 So that's when I came up with these five pillars.
48:26 Dax Shepard? CARP?
48:26 Speaker 02 Yes, the CARP, the five pillars of secure life, which consists of consistency, availability, responsiveness. And then you also have to make sure it's not enough. It's like, oh, I'm consistent, available and responsive. You have to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. And that creates CARP. So it's like a two factor authentication.
48:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
48:47 Speaker 02 It's something that happens in a relationship. So if you learn to be CARP and you can also teach others to be CARP with you, then you can really create that hyper included. And it's not that hard. It's actually pretty easy. That's what I'm trying to explain to people. Attachment is not a very sophisticated system. It's a monitoring system.
49:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
49:07 Speaker 02 Like if you give it what it needs, remember I told you, you are supposed to disappear into the background. You just have to learn how to strategically give that. So you don't wait until a child is super hungry to feed them or super tired to put them to sleep. You kind of like try to anticipate what they need and sort of give it to them and then you can sort of coast.
49:25 Speaker 01 Yeah. It is funny because I'm sure all the listeners can think about people in their lives who They don't have to think about the fact that they're there. They're not worried about that relationship. It's just there, it's constant, you and Aaron. There's people like that. And then you have people that you're like, do I need to check in on them? Or maybe that's just me because I'm anxious. But people who are more on the fence of, are they there?
49:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, they're not carp. So what happens is they push your button, they activate the radar. But I like how you said, we always have these people that we know that they're there. But what I find is that oftentimes, people tend to ignore those people.
50:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
50:04 Speaker 02 Because there's no drama. We tend to shift more to where the alarm goes off. So let's see where it goes off.
50:09 Dax Shepard? You're like inversely rewarded for being carp sometimes in some relationships.
50:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, and then what happened in the course of writing this book and the course of this work, I really learned to fall in love with the secures of this world. Because there's just so good relationships. And so what I really try to teach my patients and my students and when I supervise, is to really shift the focus and find those people. Because we really ignore them. Instead of like, why is this person not texting me? Oh, but this person texts me all the time.
50:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:36 Speaker 02 Why shouldn't I text them?
50:37 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
50:38 Speaker 01 Right, a lot more energy there.
50:40 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. And so you create that shift. And then what happens is we come to the final tool, which is when you start to pay attention, and it's not in the big things. It's in what I come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions, which is also short for semis, of everyday life. It's in those little moments, like that glass of water moment, that a lot of major change can happen because it re-challenges your brain. If you have this belief, yes, I really have to work hard for people to interact with me. I need to get their attention, otherwise they wouldn't want to be with me. They wouldn't want to necessarily reach out to me. That's more of the anxious thing. Instead, you get all these experiences, all these semis, that are counteracting that world belief. Because really, attachment styles are basically kind of a world belief, which is set in some ways.
51:25 Speaker 02 And then our brain sifts information based on that world belief. What I'm asking you to do is don't sift information based on your world belief. Look here to your right or to your left, and there's additional information that can change your brain with those little semis.
51:40 Dax Shepard? So one of my issues with, like, all this stuff, again, is trade-offs. There's positives, there's negatives. But in the mass pop psychology genre of social media.
51:54 Dax Shepard? What I seem to see the most of is identifying somebody. You know, everything's about another person's problem. You know, if you're with a narcissist.
52:01 Speaker 02 And then also from childhood.
52:03 Dax Shepard? Yeah, so either childhood's to blame or these other people are to blame.
52:07 Speaker 02 Or they have terrible pathology.
52:08 Dax Shepard? I don't find a ton of it about how about you make yourself the thing that you think you deserve? And then just kind of see what happens down river from that. For this is priority number one to make sure you're carp.
52:21 Speaker 02 I'm so glad you asked that. One of the reasons it was so important for me to write this book because it's just like, I don't see things that way anymore. Instead of going back to this idea as a child, just sort of like, no, but you can see things differently. So here, maybe try to look at it from a different angle. These are little tricks to fool your biology that wants to go in a certain way. And make it see things a little bit differently. So the brain can see, well, all things can look different. So I'm not even saying like you have to take accountability. I'm not even going there. I'm just saying, look, but the thing is anxious and avoidant have to use those tools very differently. And that's where it gets a little bit more tricky.
52:56 Dax Shepard? Well, this is where we get into one of my favorite AA sayings, which is like, it's easier to act your way into thinking different than think your way into acting different. So maybe explain a little bit what's happening biochemically and with neurons. And then why does this work with neuroplasticity and neural pathways? What's happening?
53:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. Because we have this surveillance system that was in some way maybe very sensitive and maybe the opposite, I'm constantly suppressing it. And then it starts ruling our life. If we get triggered, then two different things happen for anxious and avoidant. For secure, the thing is they don't really get triggered that often. They just don't see a lot of threat. So even maybe I think they would be the last people to know if someone cheated on them. They're not going to see the signs.
53:36 Speaker 01 Interesting.
53:36 Speaker 02 It's just like not something that they'll see. Or even at work, that can give you so many different scenarios. The other day, someone emailed me and they said, hey, when do you have a time to talk? And then my sister said, oh my God, she probably got fired. And I said, like, why would you say that? She just wanted to say when we can talk. Sure enough, she got fired.
53:52 Speaker 01 See, yeah.
53:54 Speaker 02 And then more research recently have shown that it also affects how we interact with our healthcare providers. And even if we have a chronic illness like pharma malgia, how much pain we're going to And then it affects how we shop. Secure people don't care so much about.
54:10 Speaker 02 They don't care so much about logos. Why are you laughing?
54:13 Speaker 01 I just love shopping so much.
54:16 Speaker 02 But you can love fashion, but it may be less about status and more about, or maybe it also about status.
54:21 Speaker 01 Status is in the mix. I have to be honest. I don't want it to be, but it is in the mix.
54:25 Dax Shepard? You're such a good girl.
54:27 Speaker 02 But it's fine. I think I said it from the beginning, about 25% of population are avoidant, about 20% are anxious, and about 50 something percent are secure, and a very small percentage are fearful avoidant. These are just like variations on the norm. There's different studies that show the amazing advantage to have that variability within the population. They had one study where they had like a little smoke come out of a computer in a group of people, and the anxious ones were the first to notice it, and the avoidants were the first out the door.
54:58 Speaker 01 Yes.
54:58 Speaker 02 And even a lot of other people followed, but you can see there can be an advantage. Just like, you know what? Fuck you all, I'm out of here. But I want to go back to what you said about this whole thing on social media, we're pointing at others. I just think that it's the wrong conversation or the wrong way of looking at it, because there's this whole potential, and that's the beauty of the science, that we all have these secure people in our lives and secure experiences from our own childhood that we can tap into and become more secure. And the opportunity and the advantages for being more secure in that way, we can really flourish. I want my patients to flourish and do want them to heal from trauma, and I'm not saying that's wrong, but I want to take it a step further.
55:39 Speaker 02 I think that this science, for really understanding and combining neuroscience with the attachment, really can give people the opportunity to flourish.
55:49 Dax Shepard? I just stumbled upon this chatting with my brother in New York. We took a trip for three days before Christmas. And we were discussing, there's a lot of good social science behind. Although I don't believe in The Secret, the book, I do believe in an aspect of it, right? Which is your focus and attention can create a bit of confirmation bias. So if you're looking towards the future and you're thinking of only the ways you're going to fail, those are the ones you're going to focus on, and you're going to see proof of that more often. Then you will see proof of a different theory that you're trying to service. So I was talking to my brother. I was telling him honestly, I'm like, you know, I'm writing this memoir and I feel a bit guilty because it's really the highlights reel of the bad stuff. Because that's drama, that's everything, that's a good book.
56:33 Dax Shepard? And I said, but when I'm being honest, that probably, and all your and I's combined stuff, that might have maybe been point two percent of our overall waking experience.
56:43 Speaker 02 That's amazing, actually.
56:44 Dax Shepard? And you know, why wouldn't the same premise apply to looking backwards as it does forward? Like, you and I could construct any story we want. We have enough info back there to come up with any story. And perhaps by us focusing on these things that were, no doubt, gnarly, we're kind of excluding all the other stuff that would confirm, no, we actually had a very blessed, lucky childhood.
57:09 Speaker 02 The way that you described it here is a big part of the essence of the secure priming therapy is really recasting your past from a more secure place and really looking at the other influences and the other people that were in your life. Even the people where things were difficult, that's how we started the conversation. I was able to see my part in it also. And really also see other times when actually my father really loved me and gave me attention. And that moment when we were in the hotel lobby, when he threw the coin.
57:39 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
57:40 Speaker 02 And actually, that shift is huge for our brain. And it can really help us, it really changes also who we are in the here and now. Remember that narrative and how we create the narrative? It's richer and it's more true.
57:54 Dax Shepard? It's more true, yeah. And weirdly, I'm dealing with it now. It's really crazy that I can intellectually understand that. And yet I do have this fear of letting that go.
58:04 Speaker 02 I know.
58:04 Dax Shepard? I think it's so interwoven in my, quote, identity, that to let go of it would be threatening to my identity.
58:12 Speaker 02 And we live in a world that's really ruled by Freudian psychology. That everything is because of these things happened to us in childhood. But actually, the science shows that the attachment styles that we have as children predicts less than 10% of the attachment styles that we have in adults.
58:29 Dax Shepard? Whoa. That's a huge.
58:31 Speaker 02 And a lot of what really changes our attachment style happen later.
58:35 Dax Shepard? Well, that's mind blowing. It's counterintuitive and it's encouraging.
58:39 Speaker 02 Completely encouraging because you can change your attachment style and you can evolve. And that's why actually I thought that it was fair to write this book because the science shows that you can change it.
58:48 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I want to know a little bit about neural pathways. What happens when you dwell on those five, you know, for me, I had two terrible step dads. I had four great teachers. Why aren't I looking at the four great teachers?
58:59 Speaker 02 I was actually going to grieve that example because I listened. I did my homework.
59:02 Speaker 01 Such a good student.
59:03 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I'm telling you. I feel like he used AI though to scan all of them.
59:07 Speaker 02 Oh, no, I listened. No, no.
59:08 Speaker 01 He went back to school eighty million times.
59:10 Dax Shepard? He listened to two thousand hours.
59:12 Speaker 02 No, no, actually it was fascinating, I have to say. And I love that story of the math teacher who recognized he was a geometry.
59:19 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had the little blocks and we were learning.
59:21 Speaker 02 And then he asked you to sort of teach the other students.
59:23 Dax Shepard? Changed my life.
59:24 Speaker 02 Something that happened in a moment, someone did something really good by my brain. He changed my brain to a different trajectory and made me really see myself differently and think about things differently.
59:35 Dax Shepard? Is the muscle analogy not good or is it good? When we use certain thoughts that embolden certain pathways.
59:41 Speaker 02 Oh, definitely. It describes it really, really well because what happens? Our current belief is that our memories lie in our synapses, in the structure of the synapses. Usually LTP, long-term potentiation, is like electrophysiology that we strengthen memories. The synapses get tighter and there's more, even there's actin growing in the synapses to kind of like build the structure. So that's why the analogy of the muscles, the actual molecules, some of them are the same molecules. And then when memories weaken, which is a very important part because we also have to forget. And forgetting is an active process in the brain, an active molecular process. Synapses actually weaken. They get further apart. That's why I brought up the whole semis thing. Because people when they go to therapy and think, I have to talk about my childhood, really difficult events that happened to me.
1:00:25 Speaker 02 But really the avenue for change in the brain are through those semis. Because every interaction gives you a moment, a chance to rewrite something. To strengthen those synapses or weaken those synapses. And that's basically the synaptic plasticity idea.
1:00:41 Dax Shepard? It's such an empowering way to look at it all because you have absolutely no. Sway over what happened thirty years ago. That's done.
1:00:50 Speaker 02 But also, I mean, if you think about it, we're social species. We're not particularly strong animals. We're actually pretty weak. We live in every niche on this planet just because our ability to sort of collaborate and cooperate so well. So it doesn't really make sense that we'll stay like stuck in something that happened to us really early on. What advantage is there in that at all? It's just like, it doesn't make sense to me. We need to be socially versatile. And we are extremely socially versatile, much, much more than we give ourselves credit for because of that Freudian biology.
1:01:22 Dax Shepard? You're so right. When it hits me the most is I'll be watching some documentary on chimpanzees. And, you know, they're probably our closest thing to look at.
1:01:30 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, they are.
1:01:31 Dax Shepard? And these little babies, they get fucked up. These alpha males will come through and they'll be thrashing the jungle and they'll throw one thirty feet and everything. And I just am watching that and I'm like, it's curious to me that they're so resilient. They go through what we would call capital T trauma almost daily.
1:01:50 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, their lives are vicious.
1:01:51 Dax Shepard? They still persevere, right? And I'll look at that and I'll go, as much as I do like honoring what has happened to us, we also have forgotten how fucking resilient we are. You can't live with this many members of a group and not be traumatized many times.
1:02:05 Speaker 02 So that's what brings me to that chapter ten about causality?
1:02:08 Dax Shepard? Yes, I've circled that one. I wanted to talk about that. Anne, you want to tell the story of Anne?
1:02:13 Speaker 02 A woman who as a child had terrible suppression anxiety. But unfortunately for her, her dad had to travel a lot for business. And so whenever he would travel, she would sort of cry and really sort of hold on to his leg and like really, don't go, don't go. And then she would have a hard time falling asleep. They would try to reassure her, but he had to go for work. But they didn't know she had suppression anxiety. There's actually good treatment for suppression anxiety in children.
1:02:34 Dax Shepard? He says like four to six percent maybe have that.
1:02:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's very prevalent. Eventually she learned it's not going to work and I'm just going to bottle it up. They thought it was over, that she was fine. In many cases, it does go away. So it wasn't unreasonable to think that. But she really kept that fear inside for many, many years and she couldn't fall asleep. She just kept a brave face. And then when she was an adult, she He had a really hard time in relationships. She would be in a relationship, but she would always wanna leave. Every day was like, should I stay or should I leave? Should I stay? And she would keep even boxes packed because no, no, no, I shouldn't unpack them because I'm gonna leave. And that happened in several relationships.
1:03:11 Speaker 01 She was afraid they were gonna leave? Like she was trying to get ahead of it?
1:03:14 Speaker 02 She didn't feel any safe and like she's just like, no, this doesn't feel right to me. I don't know what's gonna happen here. This doesn't feel right to me. I don't know if I belong here. Is this the right thing for me or is it not the right thing for me? And so as a someone who learned psychology and learned to do therapy, then you said, well, because as a child, even though your parents were loving and cared about you, still there was that basic experience that relationships are dangerous. Relationships are a source of pain and anguish. So I'm gonna be very careful how I'm going to approach this relationship. And the truth is, I would have given this explanation and I would have stood by that explanation until I became a scientist. And once I became a scientist, I said, wait a second. When you're a scientist, finding causality, that's the holy grail of scientific discovery.
1:03:59 Speaker 02 That's so hard to do.
1:04:01 Dax Shepard? Do you wanna explain the difference between correlation and causality? I think people think they're experiencing causality.
1:04:06 Speaker 02 We think in causality, but oftentimes people find things actually correlate or confound. The best example, because I love that example, when you talked about how you came from a family of little means. So you had to sort of fend for yourself and you had to sort of make sure that you're taking what you need. And so the best example is that marshmallow test that has been disproven.
1:04:27 Dax Shepard? Oh.
1:04:27 Speaker 02 Yes, it's been disproven.
1:04:29 Dax Shepard? Milk it? Who did marshmallow?
1:04:31 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I don't remember.
1:04:33 Speaker 02 They tried to replicate it and it was completely disproved.
1:04:36 Dax Shepard? Come on, this is an exclusive. What? Tell me.
1:04:39 Speaker 01 Okay, tell everyone.
1:04:40 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:04:40 Speaker 02 So the marshmallow test, they took children and they put a marshmallow in front of them and they told them, if you wait for a certain time, then when we get back, you'll get two. And so they waited a certain time and some kids were able to wait and they got two and some weren't able to wait. You can see them like sitting on their hands, singing, trying to sort of distract themselves. And then they found that those kids who didn't have that impulse control, then they didn't wait, they didn't fare as well later in life as the kids who had better impulse control. And there was a whole theory about impulse control and how good it is and how important it is and all of that. Lo and behold, they did a larger study with a larger cohort and they didn't find any of that effect.
1:05:18 Speaker 01 Interesting.
1:05:19 Speaker 02 And not only that, they found that the original studies were confounded by socioeconomic status.
1:05:25 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:05:26 Speaker 02 So of course it would make sense if you come from a lower socioeconomic status to jump at that marshmallow needed.
1:05:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah, there ain't no two coming back.
1:05:34 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly.
1:05:35 Dax Shepard? Bullshit.
1:05:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's why.
1:05:37 Speaker 02 And everybody knows that socioeconomic status is.
1:05:39 Dax Shepard? The biggest predictor.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 Yes.
1:05:41 Speaker 01 Oh my God, they've been lying that this whole time.
1:05:44 Dax Shepard? There have been thousands of books written on the shoulders of the marshmallow.
1:05:47 Speaker 02 But that's the beauty of science. When I work with single molecules, I can give you astounding examples. I worked with mice and aplesia, much simpler animals, even those when we think we found causality, at some point they thought PKMZ, it's like a molecule. That's the reason why we have long-term memory. It's responsible for long-term memory. There's a big splash in science paper and everybody believed that and they gave this medication that inhibited PKMZ, they could erase memories, prevent them from happening. Amazing. And it's all done in mice, very simple fear memory stuff. Several years later, another study came out in Nature, sort of science rival. It's like, no, sorry, we actually were able to knock out PKMZ from mice. They remember perfectly well.
1:06:32 Speaker 02 And not only that, we gave them the medication that you thought and they don't have PKMZ, which they thought was specific. It did disrupt their memory and that medication is not specific. It actually completely, I'll just say it in a way that will make it more simple, it completely fucks up the brain. So that's why they didn't have it.
1:06:50 Dax Shepard? It's a systemic collapse of brain activity of which memories apart.
1:06:54 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. Something like that.
1:06:56 Speaker 01 Oh wow.
1:06:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah, like we hit them in the head with a club.
1:07:00 Speaker 02 Weirdly.
1:07:00 Dax Shepard? Access to memory.
1:07:01 Speaker 02 Exactly, something of that, yes, basically. So even a single molecule in simple animals is so hard to establish causality. How can I really stand behind such causal inferences? Like in mice even, if you take them, if you expose them to a bully, I don't know how long they put them there, and they beat them up, and then sometimes some of them, I think maybe 50%, will really suffer and develop symptoms of depression and anxiety. Another 50% will completely, like, nothing happened.
1:07:29 Speaker 01 Right.
1:07:30 Speaker 02 So we don't know.
1:07:31 Dax Shepard? That's a simpler animal in a much more controlled environment.
1:07:34 Speaker 02 You still don't know.
1:07:35 Speaker 01 My therapist actively does not like talking about the past.
1:07:39 Speaker 02 Because a lot of the evidence-based therapies really focus on the here and now. They really, evidence-based therapies for depression or anxiety. And I really try to create something that will help people become more secure while focusing on the here and now, while creating these small interactions that gives your brain another chance.
1:07:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:07:58 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:08:01 Speaker 03 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.
1:08:07 Dax Shepard? Thank you to our presenting sponsor, HP, for supporting this episode. Their HP Smart Tank printer is the last printer you'll ever need. Oh, here we go, Monica. With a refillable ink tank and up to three years of ink included, so you get thousands of pages of cartridge-free printing. Hallelujah. To learn more, search for HP Smart Tank. This episode is supported by Helix.
1:08:35 Speaker 01 Dax, is there anything better than crawling into a perfect bed on a cold fall night? Candlelit, hoodie on, maybe even some rain outside. The dream.
1:08:45 Dax Shepard? That's the dream. You just described one of my ideal fall nights.
1:08:49 Speaker 01 I know, and thanks to Helix, my bed actually lives up to the vibe. All I had to do was take the Helix Sleep Quiz, and within two minutes, they matched me to a mattress built for exactly how I sleep. I have a midnight mattress. It also has cooling technology, which I really...
1:09:05 Dax Shepard? Increasingly so.
1:09:06 Speaker 01 I need it. I have to have it. And I... I heard that you're supposed to sleep at a cold temp.
1:09:13 Dax Shepard? Hmm.
1:09:14 Speaker 01 Optimal sleep. It's very, very helpful.
1:09:16 Dax Shepard? She is not wrong. I have one too, and it's been such a game changer for sleep. And I love that they make it so easy. Free shipping right to your door. And with their happy with Helix guarantee, you'll get a full 365 nights to try it. A whole year to live in that cozy. They've got over 20 mattress models. So no matter how you sleep, they've got one for you.
1:09:36 Speaker 01 And it's not just us saying it. Helix has been named the most awarded mattress brand by Forbes, Wired and more. You gotta try it for yourself.
1:09:43 Dax Shepard? Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for 20% off site wide. Helixsleep.com/armchair. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly is different.
1:10:27 Dax Shepard? It's already right there inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread, highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed at your service, not after your job. So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy
1:11:11 Dax Shepard? and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you. What you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most. Which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?
1:11:43 Speaker 01 They never are.
1:11:44 Dax Shepard? To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.
1:11:56 Dax Shepard? Okay, so let's talk about secure mode and what life actually looks like daily. Oh, we didn't finish Anne. What did we figure out?
1:12:03 Speaker 02 Basically with Anne, when I became a scientist, like, yeah, I mean, I can get that story. And it's good, but it's not fact. I mean, you can think about it as a narrative that can potentially help people. And I can say, you know, maybe there are echoes from the past, which is fine. But the truth is, we can work in the here and now to really instill meaningful changes that will really help you. And that's what we did. Luckily, she had a very secure partner. That's always good because that's sort of like the vehicle for change. Because they're like, I told you, I fell in love with the secures of this world because they're like having a built in relationship coach in the relationship. It can be in friendships, in romantic relationships, it can be at work, it can be in so many different areas of our life. So those relationships are really, really important. And then it didn't take it personally.
1:12:45 Speaker 02 And it's easier for secures not to take things personally because they don't sense danger. So it's like, oh, it's easier. And so, yeah, I understand this is something that comes up. And so she was able to learn to open up to him and talk to him about her fears. And then slowly to unpack the boxes. All the angst that prevented her started to sort of melt away. And it worked really well, but it worked in the here and now. And it really didn't depend so much on understanding the past.
1:13:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:13:10 Speaker 02 But there is something to be said about recalling past events in therapy or in general with even with friends. What actually does happen is an opportunity to rewrite your memories. You're recalling something. And what we now know is that from a neuroscience perspective, when we recall a memory, we to some degree disrupt it. We know it in like in animal models, when they recall a memory, you can prevent the new protein synthesis. And I may be getting too technical, but. New protein synthesis, in order for long-term memory to resolidify, you need new protein synthesis. You completely erase their memories. So basically, by recalling something, you disrupt the memory and you have a chance to not just create a causal connection.
1:13:53 Speaker 02 I think it's actually more powerful to change the actual memory, to edit it to suit you more now to where you are now.
1:14:00 Speaker 01 That's why everyone's memories of the same experience are very different.
1:14:04 Speaker 02 Very different.
1:14:05 Speaker 01 Because over time, they're thinking about it and they're changing it.
1:14:07 Speaker 02 Constantly editing it, constantly, and can be affected by how other people talk to you about it, how you recall it. Memory is very vulnerable, in a good way, I think.
1:14:16 Dax Shepard? I'm with you, and I am concerned about modern pop psychology for all the reasons we're listing. One thing I found about going through my past, when I actually did real therapy, starting five years ago, I guess. I was telling these stories that I had told a million times. But in this context with this man, I do believe I was feeling the emotions attached to those feelings that I had never let myself feel. And I feel like I got to actually cry when I was telling the story for the first time. And I felt like I was allowing myself to experience and grieve for something I just never made space for because I thought it might have killed me. So for me, I felt like there was utility in it.
1:14:59 Dax Shepard? And then I had delayed the emotional response to some of these things for so long in that, once I had the emotional response, they got smaller. I knew somehow on the other side of that door was crying, and I was just not going to go there. And then, once I did that part, I did feel like it liberated me to go forward.
1:15:16 Speaker 02 Completely. So that's the second. The first part is the sort of re-editing those memories. And the second part is that when you sit together with someone that you trust, and how often do we get to talk about those really difficult moments or intimate moments and recall them with someone that you fully trust, that you have a very unique... Therapeutic relationship is unlike any other relationship in the world.
1:15:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:15:37 Speaker 02 That you can open up, and they're there just to listen and to help you and to understand you. And if you feel that connection, they give you the secure base to be able to... To process some of the information and really change it in a way that now actually feels more secure. So that's the thing. And actually, a lot of studies show that it doesn't really matter so much the modality of the treatment. You know, there's CBT, there's IPT, there's all these different types of treatments. But actually, it's more about the fit with the therapist. Yeah. So again, we come back to that attachment thing. Exactly. Of how well do you feel that you connect with someone and how much attachment is powerful. I like to say that attachment is both at the base of suffering and healing from suffering.
1:16:20 Speaker 02 Because remember the strange situation, how effective it can be in regulating our emotions. So we have an attachment hierarchy in our head. We all have it. And I know that if something bad happens to me, I know exactly who's number one I'm gonna go to. Who's number two? You see, you're all nodding because you know too. Yeah. I know exactly who to go to, and that's very important for our brain. And then if I'm securely attached to them, most of the time, a single word from them or a sentence or even a hug will calm me down immediately. There's just no Xanax or Klonopin in this world that can be as powerful. And no wonder, because it works on so many different neurotransmitters altogether. Like opiates, oxytocin, dopamine, you name it, it works on those and other things that we haven't discovered yet.
1:17:05 Speaker 02 It's so powerful, but the opposite is also true. Insecure attachments can be the most powerful instigator of emotional distress. So attachment is the basis of both suffering and healing from suffering. And part of the reason why I wrote this book is kind of like to really try to shift people towards getting better and making things work for you better than being stuck in that place where your brain constantly is surveying and feels that danger. So interesting. Another part of the book talks about biological diversity and hidden sparks of talent.
1:17:36 Dax Shepard? So please tell us about that.
1:17:38 Speaker 02 When you become a molecular neuroscientist, you see the enormity of molecular diversity that we all possess and how different it is. And we know it because we all look a little bit different and we all have these different abilities, even just in the way that we can flip our tongue or like even with our finger, all these different things.
1:17:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:17:56 Speaker 02 But also it goes way, way further than that. Evolution loves diversity.
1:18:02 Speaker 02 It's really one of the best survival mechanisms. But we don't really fully appreciate how diverse we are and also in our talents. And not only that, oftentimes, especially people with insecure attachment, sometimes their biggest talents, they perceive as impediment. But here, like a hidden spark of talent that someone actually identified was your math ability.
1:18:24 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
1:18:25 Speaker 02 And so when you lean into that ability, how it can really profoundly change your world.
1:18:29 Dax Shepard? Oh, it's dominoes. If I'm actually good at math, maybe I can be good at other things.
1:18:34 Speaker 02 Right, and so I find that when people can learn to identify both theirs and other people's hidden sparks of talent, it really changes the way that they look at others and themselves. So for example, if someone is actually very, very generous, but they give to everyone, but his wife doesn't like that he gives to everyone, but he also gives to you also a lot too. You can't just decide, oh, I want him to be generous to me and sort of mean to everybody else. It doesn't work that way. It's almost like a hidden spark of talent. So when you learn to look at things that way, you say, oh, wow, actually, I see that. I don't have to resent that he gives and he gives and he gives. I'm also the recipient of that giving. Yeah. So I can see that as a hidden spark of biological talent.
1:19:13 Dax Shepard? As you said, it's a system that's scanning how available someone is. So you could misread that as a lack of availability because they're available for other people.
1:19:21 Speaker 02 Yes, exactly. Now you're like talking from the attachment logic. Because that, oh, am I being left out?
1:19:27 Dax Shepard? Scarcity.
1:19:28 Speaker 02 But that's where we can really learn to transcend our biology using metacognition, basically. So metacognition, how we think about our thoughts. So it's like, wait a second, yeah, I mean, I have that solvable effect. Am I feeling, but hey, look at, and that's where also it's good to have, I call that secure people in your life, a secure buddy, where like if you get upset, and that's what I do like in the secure therapy. I just sort of real time sometimes with text. You're also the recipient of it, and it actually doesn't take away from you. And you teach them a secure way of looking at things that secure love is actually bountiful and not scarce. Remember, secure relationships are not about being attached at the hip. All it needs is like a little bit more.
1:20:12 Speaker 02 Acknowledgement, so a little bit more texting. The other thing is, is actually say, well, I wish you were here. Well, actually also remember that hyperconnectedness to always give an opportunity if possible to include. Oh, it's too bad you can't come. Everybody talked about you. Everybody mentioned you. So there's psychological way of including people, even if they're not there.
1:20:33 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:20:34 Speaker 02 Everybody talked about you. Oh, my God, everybody mentioned like, how come? And then even in the middle of the dinner, hey, this food, you would have loved it. So like you include it, even if you're not there. It's easy to do it.
1:20:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, I feel like just telling people you miss them is so huge. Because like, I'm thinking about you. I know you're not here. I'm thinking about you.
1:20:53 Speaker 02 Exactly.
1:20:53 Speaker 01 A lovely way to include people.
1:20:55 Dax Shepard? Was there anything I've left out that you would want to cover?
1:20:58 Speaker 02 I don't know if I actually, actually really defined, I should have done it. I always tell, like, put myself over the head, like, I should define those attachment styles early on. Should I define it just in case if you wanted to?
1:21:08 Speaker 01 Let's do it.
1:21:08 Dax Shepard? Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:21:09 Speaker 02 So it all has to do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness, but also how sensitive radar we have to potential danger in the relationship. So if we have an anxious attachment style, we love closeness and intimacy, but we also have a very sensitive radar to a potential danger. If someone doesn't become available, we notice it right away. And that can lead to thoughts of like, you being rejected, take things personally. So that's the anxious attachment. Then secure attachments are people who are warm and loving, and they love a lot of closeness, as much as you can give them, but they're also not sensitive to danger in their relationship. So if you don't give them that much closeness, they're fine with it too. They just don't see, oh, my God, something is wrong. They don't like me anymore.
1:21:53 Speaker 02 No, it just goes over their head. So that's secure attachment. And people who have an avoidant attachment style, they also want relationships because we're a social species, but they just don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness. They want you, but they want you from a little bit of a distance. And so they find ways of creating that distance so they can feel more comfortable.
1:22:11 Dax Shepard? What might that look like? Because when you say the anxious attachment, I immediately, I think we all can, you can think of like your big friendship group and you can think of the ones that are like really upset and monitoring. When they've been invited and when they've not. And I mean, this is a brag, but it's like, I don't notice that, right? Like, I don't notice on Instagram.
1:22:28 Speaker 02 It's not a bag, it's just it is what it is.
1:22:30 Dax Shepard? This group was at dinner. It doesn't even cross my mind. So to me, that's a very obvious example. So what does the avoidant one look like?
1:22:37 Speaker 02 I'm glad that you said that you don't notice that because secures don't notice it oftentimes. But if they're asked to do it, they will do it.
1:22:44 Dax Shepard? Yeah, uh huh, right.
1:22:45 Speaker 02 Avoidance, they have a harder time with it because they have this worldview that you have to be independent. You have to be self-reliant and they are to themselves. But they don't understand, as we said, they're about 25% of the population. They don't understand that they're the minority. They're not the majority. Most people need other people to help when they're in time of need, when they come to you. So when you come to them in time of need, it's like, what do you want from me? Take care of it. But then it actually triggers your attachment even more. It's like, no, no, now you've become the center of their problem. I'm coming for help and you're not helping me. They forget about the bad thing that happened to them and now you're the bad thing that's happened to them. So they fall into these constant traps unknowingly often, not knowing how to manage.
1:23:26 Speaker 02 Like, no, you're their minority report. You need to understand that when people come to you, they can't deal with it on their own. So that's one thing. The other thing, sometimes they create a lot of closeness. Well, they spent a really amazing weekend together. Everything is very intense and fun. And then comes Monday and they need their time. Okay, we've had enough, right? They have this idea that they can carry it forward like credit, but attachment doesn't work that way. It's a radar.
1:23:50 Speaker 01 Exactly.
1:23:51 Speaker 02 They actually disappear. They do the opposite of what they intended to do. They actually increase the change, the delta. And now you're actually even more, what's happening? Why are you not answering?
1:23:59 Speaker 01 It feels like love bombing.
1:24:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, they don't understand what's happening.
1:24:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:24:03 Speaker 02 Like, why are you disappearing all of a sudden? So remember the consistency, available, responsive? They don't even understand what's happening.
1:24:09 Dax Shepard? They're like, yeah, don't you feel filled up?
1:24:11 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then the last thing that happens is that sometimes when they get too close too quickly, they don't pace themselves. Because they kind of like, no, I want this to happen. I want it to work now. I've looked for all these people and it doesn't work and now I want it to. They get very close real fast because they think all the other people that I met, they weren't the one. This person is going to be one. I may just swoop in and go in like full force. To make it work, but that's exactly what they don't need to do. Because the problem is not that they weren't into that person. They were into all these other people. The problem is that there's too much closeness for comfort. And then they have these deactivating strategies. Like, oh, I don't know if I like this person. I don't like how they chew. I like this, all these little things.
1:24:51 Dax Shepard? Their toenails.
1:24:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's these deactivating strategies. They have to learn to pace themselves. And they have to learn not to get, I call it the closeness overdose. Because then they're gonna sound like, no, this is suffocating. I don't want you anymore. And then again, they create this sort of push-pull. So you can teach them how to sort of engage in more carpesias, basically.
1:25:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah. Did you once say that one of your criticisms of your own book, Attached, would be that you didn't necessarily give the avoidant.
1:25:20 Speaker 02 Oh, I'm glad you brought that up.
1:25:21 Dax Shepard? Yeah, the avoidant group, as much compassion as maybe they deserve.
1:25:24 Speaker 02 This is my, like, amends. But it's not entirely my fault. This book is definitely my amends to the avoidants. Not just mine, I have to say, also just the research in general. Because research is also biased and the questions that people ask are biased. And I feel that in this book, I really present a much more biological explanation of avoidance. Not necessarily, you know, again, blaming the mothers, like that your parents were not responsive to you. I don't think that's the case, and I really make a strong case of it. But I really think that we presented the data, the science, and the show, oh, they have a wondering eye. They don't take care of you so well if you're sick. And so we just wrote it out there. But then, over the years, working with avoidance.
1:26:05 Dax Shepard? Are you laughing at me?
1:26:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:26:07 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's laughing at me. When someone gets sick, I'm like, just go deal with it, man, I do.
1:26:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, he's like, we all get sick.
1:26:14 Dax Shepard? Yeah, we all get sick.
1:26:15 Speaker 02 You see, but it's sick.
1:26:18 Dax Shepard? I was sick too, but I didn't fucking bother you with it.
1:26:20 Speaker 02 Right, exactly, because they don't. They don't bother other people.
1:26:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:26:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly.
1:26:25 Dax Shepard? I'm so guilty of it. What's happening biological with me?
1:26:27 Speaker 02 So biologically, I give an example in the book of C. elegans, which is like a tiny worm that neuroscientists love. Because they have, again, huge neurons. And they can be manipulated and experimented on. So in C. The elegance, they found that they have two types of feeding behavior, solitary feeding behavior and social feeding behavior. And so they eat E. coli.
1:26:51 Dax Shepard? Thank God. We don't want it.
1:26:52 Speaker 02 I know. So when the social ones, they detect E. coli, you see like a whole pile of worms voraciously eating.
1:26:59 Dax Shepard? No, thank you.
1:26:59 Speaker 02 And then.
1:27:00 Speaker 01 They ate that image.
1:27:02 Speaker 02 I know, I'm sorry. But it's important because the solitary one, if one swims in that direction, they swim the other way. They're chemotactically repelled by the other worms. And it's a change in a single amino acid, in a single protein. They can switch solitary to social and vice versa.
1:27:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's very.
1:27:20 Speaker 02 So.
1:27:24 Speaker 02 The case that I'm trying to make is that this preference for closeness and distance, a lot of it is also biologically driven. And we can see it everywhere around us, like even you can see in pets. Some people say some dogs are like cats. They don't like to be that close. They actually will stay away, like, okay, I like you from a distance. Some cats will stick to you and they actually are not that separate as you would think. You can see it in birds and you can see it in people. Some people feel more comfortable with more closeness. And there's a big, big, big spectrum. But if we can also focus on the here and now and make these changes that can really lead us to be in secure mode. It's a way to flourish in the world, to feel safe, to not worry all the time. It's so much so, and that's kind of like chapter four in the book. I write about energy in the brain because you really have to understand
1:28:09 Speaker 02 that the brain is a huge energy guzzler. It can't really get reinforcements. It can only deal with the amount of energy that it gets. It can't increase the blood flow all of a sudden like our muscles can or when we eat. That's not possible for the brain because it's encased in the skull and the pressure will mount and we'll have a bleed. So you get the amount of energy that you get, which is 20%, which is a huge amount. The brain is 2%, but it's taking 20%. And in children, even more, like five-year-olds, it's like 50%. It's kind of crazy. And then all that you can do is you can divert energy from one area to the brain to the other. So if you feel safer, and especially those prefrontal areas that we think and abstract and create, these are the ones that are most.
1:28:52 Speaker 02 Energy heavy. So when you create a safer, like a secure mode environment for yourself, you can free up that energy to sort of be diverted more to thinking like the child in the strange situation like uh uh playing, doing things. It's not just about, oh, this is nice to me. I don't really have to worry about what the other person is doing. It's really more about this frees up energy to actually achieve more.
1:29:15 Dax Shepard? Yeah. And then the last thing, and this is now stemming from immediate defensiveness. Obviously, it's also, I think, tempting for us to label ourselves one thing across all domains, right? So it's like, I could be avoidant in caregiving of an illness. And then if you call me for AA, I've got unlimited time for you.
1:29:35 Speaker 02 I think that's the promising part of this whole book, our versatility and our ability to sort of like to change, to understand, to accept certain things. And also knowing, so if you're not such a great person, when you get sick, then why shouldn't I call someone else?
1:29:49 Speaker 01 Right.
1:29:50 Speaker 02 No, I'm serious. Why does one person have to do everything?
1:29:53 Dax Shepard? Right, right, right.
1:29:53 Speaker 02 It doesn't make any sense.
1:29:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. Amir, this is awesome. Please, everyone, check out Secure: The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life. This is just so encouraging and hopeful, and I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for coming.
1:30:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, thanks.
1:30:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was fun, actually. I was nervous about it, but I enjoyed it.
1:30:13 Dax Shepard? We aim to be fun. All right, be well.
1:30:17 Dax Shepard? We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.
1:30:25 Dax Shepard? When's mom and dad arrive?
1:30:27 Speaker 01 They land at like 3:40. They'll probably like 5:00, 5:30.
1:30:32 Dax Shepard? LAX. There's no good Burbank.
1:30:34 Speaker 01 Mm mm. Which is sad.
1:30:37 Dax Shepard? We gotta expand Burbank.
1:30:38 Speaker 01 I know, but then it's-
1:30:39 Dax Shepard? But only to the destinations we want.
1:30:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, because then it's gonna become the same situation, which we don't.
1:30:44 Dax Shepard? I will support an Atlanta route if you support a Nashville route.
1:30:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, there is a Nashville. They had one flight, one time, to Atlanta out of Burbank.
1:30:55 Dax Shepard? A single flight in the history?
1:30:56 Speaker 01 Yes. Callie and I took it home for Christmas.
1:31:00 Dax Shepard? Was it Air Kmart?
1:31:01 Speaker 01 No, it was Delta.
1:31:03 Dax Shepard? Oh, it was Delta?
1:31:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, and it was like a lot of years ago. They tried it. I guess they decided it.
1:31:09 Dax Shepard? I'm not gonna call them out, but I am gonna say what is really weird is how much these airlines jock you for quality. Like if I go back 15 years ago, what I would have listed is like the best quality airline. Like the cleanest, most up to date, everything. That has shuffled dramatically. And I don't really understand that. I want to know what forces make these ones that were kind of good just
1:31:34 Speaker 01 Bad.
1:31:34 Dax Shepard? tumble.
1:31:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:31:35 Dax Shepard? I guess it's management. Like, I'll just say, someone at Delta has turned that thing into a real wonderful airline.
1:31:42 Speaker 01 It's a great airline.
1:31:42 Dax Shepard? But I used to have to fly it nonstop. They absorb Northwest.
1:31:46 Speaker 01 Right.
1:31:47 Dax Shepard? And I always had to fly Northwest because that was Detroit was a hub for Northwest. Basically, the Northwest loved to fly anywhere where you might get snowed in and have to get a hotel room.
1:31:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:31:59 Dax Shepard? But you know, it was just, it wasn't, you know, whatever.
1:32:02 Speaker 01 Well, Delta probably is, they took in, they're like, we're making it good.
1:32:07 Dax Shepard? I just want to tip my hat to them. They're not a sponsor. I want to tip my hat. They've really upped their game, I think.
1:32:11 Speaker 01 They're not a sponsor, but they are my preferred airline. Except, we did fly Emirates to India and that
1:32:21 Dax Shepard? That was nice.
1:32:22 Speaker 01 Was really nice.
1:32:24 Dax Shepard? That was nice. That was nice.
1:32:25 Speaker 01 Really, really, really nice.
1:32:27 Dax Shepard? Are you excited about anything? It's a very exciting time for me.
1:32:30 Speaker 01 Oh, go ahead.
1:32:31 Dax Shepard? MotoGP returned last weekend. So we had our first race of the year after four months layoff. And Formula One's been gone for three and a half months. They've been in their winter break.
1:32:42 Speaker 01 Right, right.
1:32:43 Dax Shepard? That returns this weekend.
1:32:45 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:32:46 Dax Shepard? So I have, I'm coming out of my three or four month fast of racing and I'm pretty excited about it.
1:32:53 Speaker 01 That's fun.
1:32:54 Dax Shepard? Knowing that, you don't have something like this, right? Where it's multiple events over the course of a weekend. And I may or may not partake in all them, but just knowing if I wanted, there's a lot of stuff on Friday I could check in with. Saturday's a big day. And then, of course, the race on Sunday.
1:33:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:33:13 Dax Shepard? That is the power of having something to look forward to. Is gigantic.
1:33:17 Speaker 01 Yes, that's huge. Speaking of that, we really dropped the ball on the Olympics this year. We didn't watch it, we didn't talk about it, we didn't do anything. That's upsetting.
1:33:31 Dax Shepard? And you know, it wa- I read a thing that it was the most viewed Olympics in like, um, 16 years or something.
1:33:38 Speaker 01 It what?
1:33:39 Dax Shepard? I was a little shocked to see that, no, it was a hugely successful and, and, and watched Olympics.
1:33:44 Speaker 01 I'm surprised by that too, because I don't, not because I wasn't interested, but because no one I knew was talking about it at all. Um, and even on podcasts and stuff, I wasn't like hearing about it.
1:33:59 Dax Shepard? I tried, right? I was in Miami when they kicked off. Uh, Erin and I were excited to consume some Olympics and do some napping while we did that.
1:34:08 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:34:09 Dax Shepard? Cause it's good napping material. Cause there's a lot of downtime. It's like someone does a run and you hear a lot of talks, waiting for scores, whatever. And so when I, this is terrible to admit, but when I checked in, I was having this feeling of like, cause I was watching on YouTube TV, right? So I can see every single thing that's happening. It's all there.
1:34:27 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:34:28 Dax Shepard? And I'm like, did they take some events out of the Winter Olympics? Like, what is it I like? I liked snowboarding, AKA Sean White. I loved watching him perform every year. That was an exciting thing.
1:34:41 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:34:41 Dax Shepard? But I'm watching, like, the first thing I watched was people cross-country skiing for like three hours.
1:34:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was on my face.
1:34:47 Dax Shepard? I was like, I don't know. And then another one was like, they were kinda cross-country skiing, but there was a little bit of downhill. I was like, still not very hair-raising. And I was like, what is my, I don't know.
1:34:59 Speaker 01 Hmm.
1:34:59 Dax Shepard? I got confused and then I just never went back.
1:35:02 Speaker 01 Sure. I like ice skating.
1:35:04 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:35:05 Speaker 01 A lot, but.
1:35:07 Dax Shepard? I kind of even forgot about ice skating.
1:35:09 Speaker 01 Ice skating is the main one in my, for me.
1:35:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:35:12 Speaker 01 Um, I did watch a couple clips, uh, and there was a whole story about this, this Olympian who was in the Olympics, maybe a couple Olympics ago, and then she was really, really young and, um, was mistreated and was like, you know what? I'm like, not doing this anymore. She took life back into her own hands.
1:35:32 Dax Shepard? Yeah, good person. Personal story.
1:35:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then she's back on her own, like, you know, two feet on the ice, yes, and she won.
1:35:41 Dax Shepard? Oh, great.
1:35:42 Speaker 01 And it's like, great. And normally I'd be so into all of that, but.
1:35:47 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:35:48 Speaker 01 I don't know what happened.
1:35:49 Dax Shepard? I don't either, but I was, I was, I was saddened that I wasn't interested in it.
1:35:54 Speaker 04 Hockey was fun this, this year.
1:35:56 Dax Shepard? There we go, Rob. Thanks. Yeah, that's what I should have been watching. Hockey was.
1:36:00 Speaker 04 Men and women, US won.
1:36:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's right. I did hear about that.
1:36:04 Dax Shepard? Boys and girls.
1:36:05 Speaker 04 In overtime. It was the first time US beat Canada since.
1:36:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, see, all that's cool and like, and I didn't.
1:36:12 Dax Shepard? I take away everything I just said.
1:36:14 Speaker 01 Well, no, you can't, you can't take away that you didn't care. And like, either did I, and I don't know why.
1:36:21 Dax Shepard? My critique would have been to start day one with some more exciting stuff than the cross-country thing for three hours, maybe. But I bet there are people riveted by cross-country skiing.
1:36:32 Speaker 01 Course, there, there are.
1:36:33 Dax Shepard? And there's people that watch the walk, the competitive walking.
1:36:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, there's people, there's, there's a lid for every pot.
1:36:41 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:36:42 Speaker 01 I forgot to tell you the other day that something weird happened. I almost got in another person's car.
1:36:47 Dax Shepard? Oh, tell me.
1:36:48 Speaker 01 It was strange. I was leaving a place with Jess. It was at night and I had bad eyes. And I was a little sick. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. But we were walking and I start to get in his car.
1:37:05 Dax Shepard? Mm-hmm.
1:37:06 Speaker 01 And he was like, that's not mine. And I was like, oh, silly me.
1:37:11 Dax Shepard? Dull.
1:37:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, silly me. And then I'm walking up further and, you know, there, there's his car with the light, like he had un.
1:37:20 Dax Shepard? It's flashing, the light.
1:37:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, he had unlocked it so the, the lights come on. And so I go to get in the car. And then there's a man standing there and he says, that's my car. And I was like, oh, oh, oh my God, I'm so sorry.
1:37:35 Dax Shepard? So you tried to get into two wrong cars?
1:37:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, I look over and just as I cross the street.
1:37:40 Dax Shepard? You were on the wrong side of the street, Monica?
1:37:42 Speaker 01 Well, we were both on the wrong side and then in that interim time when I saw the flashing lights and thought that was his, he had crossed.
1:37:51 Dax Shepard? Were you tipsy?
1:37:52 Speaker 01 I, it was not that.
1:37:54 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:37:55 Speaker 01 Really not that. I, I was so, and I was like, what's going on?
1:37:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah, cuz I, the, you lost me at wrong side of the street.
1:38:01 Speaker 01 Well.
1:38:02 Dax Shepard? I think like you should have your bearings of which side of the street you guys parked on.
1:38:05 Speaker 01 Hmm, I get, I mean, I'm not very good at that. I, I don't know. We were both walking on that side.
1:38:13 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:38:14 Speaker 01 For a while, like down the sidewalk and then he just crossed in the middle.
1:38:18 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
1:38:19 Speaker 01 Where the car was, I, I guess. Nope, nope, this, he dropped me off to get in line.
1:38:25 Dax Shepard? Okay. See, I knew there was an explanation. If you didn't remember what side of the street you parked on, that's, that's alarming.
1:38:32 Speaker 01 Okay, that is something that might happen to me, just FYI. I'm not good at directions. I'm not paying that much attention if I'm not driving.
1:38:39 Dax Shepard? Right, right.
1:38:40 Speaker 01 Um, but he did drop me off to get in line, so I did not muscle memory know where the car was parked, that type of thing.
1:38:48 Dax Shepard? Well, that explains that.
1:38:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it was still.
1:38:50 Dax Shepard? Otherwise, you're in Strokeville.
1:38:52 Speaker 01 Right, right, right, right. Well, anyway, the ma, it was just, he was right there and he was like, um, that's my car. I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry.
1:39:03 Dax Shepard? I parked next to yours at your car and at the SAG night.
1:39:06 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:39:07 Dax Shepard? SAG Awards.
1:39:07 Speaker 01 Nice.
1:39:08 Dax Shepard? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:39:08 Speaker 01 It needs a wash. Is that what you were thinking?
1:39:10 Dax Shepard? Nope.
1:39:11 Speaker 01 Okay, it really needs a wash.
1:39:13 Dax Shepard? I just thought, look at these two handsome cars.
1:39:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, great, very beautiful car.
1:39:18 Dax Shepard? What are your plans with mom and dad?
1:39:19 Speaker 01 Yeah, my parents are coming today. I'm doing a tour of the rape treatment center. It's not funny.
1:39:25 Dax Shepard? Okay, well, you're laughing pretty hard.
1:39:27 Speaker 01 It's not funny.
1:39:28 Dax Shepard? I'm not, just for the record.
1:39:30 Speaker 01 Is not funny at all.
1:39:32 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:39:33 Speaker 01 But I am, I had planned to do that for a, a while.
1:39:36 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:39:37 Speaker 01 And I was like, oh, I can't cancel it. Like, that's for one, bad.
1:39:42 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:39:43 Speaker 01 And two, I wanna do it and the, but it's like, I don't know that my parents.
1:39:49 Dax Shepard? That might not be for them.
1:39:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know that.
1:39:51 Dax Shepard? It's not like a fun, you're on vacation, let's go to the.
1:39:53 Speaker 01 Let's go tour the rape treatment center.
1:39:55 Dax Shepard? Right.
1:39:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't.
1:39:57 Dax Shepard? And is it psychological treatment? That's what they're offering or?
1:40:00 Speaker 01 No, they offer physi- like, it's like-
1:40:03 Dax Shepard? Rate kits?
1:40:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, like, it's kind of like, instead of going to a hospital, you can go to the rate treatment center.
1:40:09 Dax Shepard? Oh, great, yeah, yeah.
1:40:10 Speaker 01 And it's-
1:40:11 Dax Shepard? And get your examiner, yeah, uh-huh.
1:40:13 Speaker 01 And, and there is like psychological resources and legal resources and things-
1:40:20 Dax Shepard? Okay, great.
1:40:21 Speaker 01 And it's, um, it's a really cool thing. So, uh, I am gonna do that, but I think I'll probably leave them at home for that.
1:40:29 Dax Shepard? Yeah, let them, you know, lounge around the house a little bit. Maybe that's when I'll take your dad out for a beer and ask him about his previous girlfriends. I almost forgot my objective for this trip. Find out about past lovers for your parents. Remember I said I was gonna ask them?
1:40:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:40:42 Dax Shepard? Their dating history?
1:40:43 Speaker 01 I'm not sure if we're gonna have time for that. Um, yeah, so, I think that's really, we're just gonna like be, there's, they're very, very excited to see the house-
1:40:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:40:56 Speaker 01 And stay in the house, cuz normally, my apartment was so small, you know, they, they stayed in a hotel when they came to visit.
1:41:01 Dax Shepard? And they would just come in, you'd get ready, and y'all leave to go somewhere.
1:41:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
1:41:06 Dax Shepard? Now your mom can watch her YouTube.
1:41:08 Speaker 01 Shit, she will.
1:41:09 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:41:10 Speaker 01 She'll watch her YouTube.
1:41:11 Dax Shepard? I wonder what she's, uh, what, what she's got her fangs into right now?
1:41:14 Speaker 01 I wonder, I mean, I'm-
1:41:15 Dax Shepard? Is there any trials going on, or?
1:41:17 Speaker 01 Uh, I mean, I'm sure she is very knowledgeable on everything that's going on with Epstein.
1:41:25 Dax Shepard? Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
1:41:26 Speaker 01 So that's probably the main, the main thing she's consuming right now would be my guess.
1:41:30 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:41:31 Speaker 01 But I don't really know, I'm, I will find out.
1:41:33 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:41:33 Speaker 01 Um, and, yeah, and they'll get to like go make their coffees and stuff, and it'll be really nice. It'll be really nice to have them. I did my final walk-through of the apartment today.
1:41:46 Dax Shepard? To turn it back over?
1:41:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:41:47 Dax Shepard? What's that experience like?
1:41:49 Speaker 01 Um, it was goo- I mean, it was good, it was sad. It's sad to say bye to something and the chapter.
1:41:57 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:41:57 Speaker 01 It was also weird cuz it's empty and I haven't seen it like that since I got it. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, it was, I remembered going to see it and, um, Lincoln came with me, I remember.
1:42:10 Dax Shepard? Oh. For the first walk through.
1:42:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, to go check it out. Um, and that was a long time ago.
1:42:16 Dax Shepard? I thought, I know you already know this, but um, I was sad to leave our old house. And I thought I was gonna be really sad. And then we left and I've never thought about it again. I've been shocked with the fact that I don't think about it at all. Cause it held a very, it's like the epicenter of some of my favorite memories and experiences. I have such warm feelings about it, but I don't at all miss it. And I thought I was going to.
1:42:39 Speaker 01 But don't you think that's kind of in keeping with?
1:42:41 Dax Shepard? My personality?
1:42:43 Speaker 01 Cause like same thing with relationships, like you still have an affinity, you like, you like love the time and the people. But you're not like an, you're not like missing them. I mean, you've told me that maybe that's incorrect, but.
1:42:55 Dax Shepard? Elaborate, give me an example.
1:42:57 Speaker 01 Uh, I guess that's just something you've told me. That like, you don't yearn for any past relationship, that it's like.
1:43:04 Dax Shepard? I don't yearn to be romantically. Romantically involved with any of my exes, but I still love being friends with them.
1:43:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's what I just said. You still love the people.
1:43:14 Dax Shepard? Oh, I thought you were saying that when I walk away, that they're dead to me and I don't ever think about them again.
1:43:18 Speaker 01 But that you, you still have an affinity and a fondness and there's like all these positive associations and you, you love them as people. But yeah, you're not like, oh, like, you don't miss them.
1:43:31 Dax Shepard? Kiss, well, no, I miss them as friends, but I don't wanna kiss them. I was always saying this in reference to a lot of people have a pattern of hooking up with exes. Which is great. I don't, I don't care about, I'm not suggesting I have a moral position on it. I just have not had that. I've not had a pattern of hooking up with my ex-girlfriends. That part to me when we sever has.
1:43:58 Speaker 01 It's over, yeah.
1:44:00 Dax Shepard? The romantic part. But the friendship part and the missing them and wanting to connect with them, for sure, I still have that. I'll randomly. Carrie will find, Carrie, my girlfriend in high school, I was with for like five years. She will, she knows, she and I love the same kind of music. She'll find a new album and she'll send it to me.
1:44:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:44:21 Dax Shepard? And I love it and then we'll, we'll have like seven exchanges about it. And I go, oh, Carrie's still so fun and so engaged in devouring life and finding new things. And I'm proud of her. She's maintained the essence of who she, who she was when I met her that I found so appealing about her.
1:44:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:44:40 Dax Shepard? And then I'll talk to Bree and she's on fire for innumerable things. Second time I've said innumerable, which is questionable.
1:44:47 Speaker 01 Maybe it's your new word.
1:44:48 Dax Shepard? I hope not. And I get this swell of excitement that she is still held on to that sparkly curiosity. Yeah. And.
1:45:00 Speaker 01 But that's different. You like, that's different than what I'm, than what a lot of people feel, like that there's.
1:45:07 Dax Shepard? But I do have what you're saying about objects, which kind of shocks me because I have coveted objects so much my whole life.
1:45:18 Dax Shepard? And then when I don't have them, I don't think about them anymore.
1:45:20 Speaker 01 Right.
1:45:21 Dax Shepard? Which is a little shocking to me because I wanted them so bad or I coveted them so bad. And then when they're gone, I'm like, I don't even really remember that I cared about objects.
1:45:31 Speaker 01 That house is a big, big object.
1:45:33 Dax Shepard? It is. And it's like, it's, it's, it's symbolic. It, it's a marker of your life and, and your accomplishments.
1:45:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:45:42 Dax Shepard? It can represent so much.
1:45:44 Speaker 01 It does.
1:45:45 Dax Shepard? And then I see videos of the kids playing in that little area we had between the kitchen and the living room. That was like their zone.
1:45:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:45:53 Dax Shepard? And I go, oh yeah, I love sitting on the couch and watching them be little babies.
1:45:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:45:58 Dax Shepard? But I don't need to walk back in there. That's the weird part.
1:46:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. It wasn't like, I wasn't like, oh, like I wasn't like devastated, but I was like, yeah, this is like the end of the era.
1:46:08 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:46:09 Speaker 01 That's.
1:46:10 Dax Shepard? A chapter's closing.
1:46:11 Speaker 01 And, and sad.
1:46:14 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:46:15 Speaker 01 Just when new things start, it's like, yeah, there's no going back. Like there's no. No, it's just, it's just a reminder that like time keeps moving and you can't pause it. You can't go back. Um, and that's, you know.
1:46:29 Dax Shepard? We have a guest today after this fact check, whose book is about consciousness.
1:46:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:46:34 Dax Shepard? And so I'm really locked into this book and thinking about life and consciousness. And yeah, many of the experts that he interviewed for this book try to explain that like thought is. There was a traditional way of thinking, which is like, uh, Rene Descartes, which is like, I think therefore I am. And thoughts are one thought built to top another and it's kind of, um, one thing leads to another. And there's other people who think more like it's a stream. There's no marker of this thought led to this thought. There's just this, and, and you'll never have the same thought or consciousness ever again, is a fascinating thing.
1:47:18 Dax Shepard? And it's what you're saying. It's like, life's moving forward and it's taking with it everything that preceded it. And so it can't ever be the same because more things are preceding it. And the way we rewrite memories every time we think of them.
1:47:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:47:34 Dax Shepard? Like your brain's evolving nonstop. Your experience on earth is, is, is evolving nonstop. And that can feel scary and, and maybe untethered. But it is the nature and facts of life. And I think the discomfort's when you're fighting that.
1:47:53 Speaker 01 Right. I think it's, it's, uh, you can feel untethered, but you're also just reminded of mortality. It's like, oh yeah, like that phase is over. Now I'm in this phase. There'll be another. And how many more do I have? Not very, who knows?
1:48:06 Dax Shepard? We know the ultimate phase.
1:48:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So, um, but it, and then sort of ding, ding, ding with relationships. Probably like people who do.
1:48:20 Speaker 01 Hook up with their exes and stuff like it's probably more about that like wanting to go back in time as opposed to like I miss this person. I mean, maybe obviously there's a million reasons why, but I bet a lot of it is like I I miss me then I miss that time of my life and that person is connected to that time. So I want to like click into that.
1:48:43 Dax Shepard? Yeah. And I think, yes, that's the Esther thing, which I love is like people are cheating on you with themselves. They want to visit a version of themselves from the past.
1:48:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:48:54 Dax Shepard? But I think the easy cycle to get into with going back to exes is with some time away. When you come back, you can revisit the initial easy uncomplicated phase of it.
1:49:08 Speaker 01 Hmm.
1:49:09 Dax Shepard? And that is very pleasurable, but the complications arise immediately after.
1:49:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:14 Dax Shepard? But I think you succumb to the joy of getting to relive the, the part that was easy, the falling in love part.
1:49:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:23 Dax Shepard? And then I just think quickly it ends up exactly what it always is.
1:49:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:28 Dax Shepard? And I think that's the cycle that's appealing is like, oh, I want to go back to the original moment.
1:49:34 Speaker 01 Right.
1:49:34 Dax Shepard? We fell in love and it was so easy and.
1:49:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:38 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:49:39 Speaker 01 Yeah. Complicated.
1:49:40 Dax Shepard? Complicated.
1:49:42 Speaker 01 Um, should we do some facts?
1:49:46 Speaker 03 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.
1:49:52 Dax Shepard? We are supported by HP. My mental to do list is already full. Uh, fix something around the house, refill prescriptions, remember to text someone back. Keep track of a million little life things. The last thing I want on that list is, oh, don't forget printer ink.
1:50:08 Speaker 01 No, it's horrible.
1:50:09 Dax Shepard? It's the bane of everyone's existence. What if you could just take that off your list for years?
1:50:14 Speaker 01 The dream.
1:50:15 Dax Shepard? That's the idea behind the HP Smart Tank printer from America's most trusted printer brand. Instead of those tiny cartridges that always seem to run out at the worst time, the HP Smart Tank uses a refillable ink tank and it comes with up to three years of ink and It's built to be simple, the easiest tank printer you'll ever use with the best print quality. Period. It's the last printer you'll ever need. I've definitely been in this situation where something that should take two minutes turns into a whole thing. Like I need to print tickets and get out the door, but then I realize I'm out of ink and have to deal with it right then. With the HP Smart Tank, that's just not something you're dealing with all the time. It's one of those things that just works when you need it to.
1:50:56 Dax Shepard? If you want to take one more thing off your mental to do list, search for HP Smart Tank.
1:51:07 Speaker 01 Okay, Amir Attachment.
1:51:10 Dax Shepard? Had you read this book? I mean, this book was wildly popular.
1:51:13 Speaker 01 So popular. I had not read it. I just heard so much about it.
1:51:18 Dax Shepard? You had.
1:51:18 Speaker 01 And I looked into the theories and stuff.
1:51:21 Dax Shepard? I wasn't aware of the book. I know I was aware that people were talking about attachment theory a lot.
1:51:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51:25 Dax Shepard? But I just assumed that's in the same way people are talking about ADHD. Or whatever, that that was just the thing we were.
1:51:32 Speaker 01 Obsessed with.
1:51:33 Dax Shepard? Zeitgeisty, but I didn't realize there was such a specific origin for it all.
1:51:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, I find it very intriguing.
1:51:41 Dax Shepard? You do?
1:51:42 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:51:42 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I talked about it.
1:51:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51:44 Dax Shepard? I found myself talking about it a bit.
1:51:46 Speaker 01 It's just interesting that we all do have ways of relating to others that are kind of predictable, well worn.
1:51:56 Dax Shepard? I thought the thing that I was most interested in is I love anything that's counterintuitive, which is your attachment styles as a child has nothing to do with your attachment style as an adult.
1:52:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:06 Dax Shepard? Like you would, I would have thought it just led into your permanent, they set this attachment style.
1:52:11 Speaker 01 Totally, yes.
1:52:12 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:52:12 Speaker 01 I thought that too. It made me think about a couple of people in my life that have very secure attachments.
1:52:18 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
1:52:19 Speaker 01 And I was like, huh, yeah, they don't, they're not threatened, they're totally chill.
1:52:25 Dax Shepard? Taking stuff personal.
1:52:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:26 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:52:27 Speaker 01 It's pretty admirable.
1:52:28 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:52:28 Speaker 01 Okay, now he told the story of his dad, like, you know, throwing the penny or the coin when the president was in town.
1:52:37 Dax Shepard? Oh, uh huh.
1:52:38 Speaker 01 And I was trying to figure out which president it was, and I can't figure out Amir's age.
1:52:43 Dax Shepard? That's not known on the internet?
1:52:44 Speaker 01 I didn't, I couldn't, I didn't see it on the internet. Maybe Rob, maybe you'll see it, but I didn't see it. So my guess is gonna be it was in the nineties.
1:52:54 Speaker 04 Yeah, no public information. Well.
1:52:57 Dax Shepard? How on earth could you be alive in the era of the internet and your age not be known?
1:53:01 Speaker 04 Is he 50, around there, I think? Cause there's a Amir Levine born on April 22nd, 1975.
1:53:08 Dax Shepard? So he, he would have probably been talking about Reagan or Carter.
1:53:12 Speaker 01 If it was in the eighties, but if it was in the nineties, could have been Clinton.
1:53:17 Dax Shepard? But he would have been more teenager.
1:53:21 Speaker 01 Right.
1:53:22 Dax Shepard? Versus a little boy?
1:53:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, I couldn't tell exactly his age. I mean, I guess he was small enough that he was a little anxious.
1:53:28 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
1:53:29 Speaker 01 Carter visited in 79.
1:53:32 Dax Shepard? So four years old.
1:53:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, four years old if he was born in 75, maybe.
1:53:37 Dax Shepard? Maybe.
1:53:38 Speaker 01 Clinton started his visits in 94.
1:53:40 Dax Shepard? Where was he visiting?
1:53:41 Speaker 01 Uh, Israel.
1:53:42 Dax Shepard? Oh, Israel.
1:53:43 Speaker 01 The 1980s saw high level diplomatic tension, particularly under Reagan, with key meetings occurring in DC rather than Israel.
1:53:50 Dax Shepard? Oh.
1:53:51 Speaker 01 So maybe he didn't really go there.
1:53:53 Dax Shepard? Right. I'm sure Carter went there.
1:53:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, he did. He visited in 79.
1:53:58 Dax Shepard? Yeah. He went to a bunch of places presidents hadn't gone in a long time. He was known for that.
1:54:03 Speaker 01 From Georgia.
1:54:04 Dax Shepard? Peanut farmer.
1:54:05 Speaker 01 Yep. This has no US president made an official state visit to Israel during the 1980s. It said Carter 79 and then Clinton in 94.
1:54:16 Dax Shepard? Oh boy, big gap, 14 years.
1:54:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. We're gonna go with Carter.
1:54:21 Dax Shepard? We're sticking with Carter. That's our final guess.
1:54:23 Speaker 01 Yep. Um, primates, middle of the food chain. Primates generally occupy the middle of the food chain. Acting as both consumers of plants, insects, and as prey for larger predators. I wanted to figure out top of the food chain.
1:54:41 Dax Shepard? If it goes by continent, I'd like to guess.
1:54:43 Speaker 01 Okay, we can do environment.
1:54:45 Dax Shepard? Okay. You could also do apex predators in other search.
1:54:50 Speaker 01 Apex predators are the, are at the top of the food chain is the first thing it says.
1:54:55 Dax Shepard? Okay.
1:54:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:54:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah. So in Africa, that continent, I think it's the lion. And then in the subcontinent, India, I think it's the tiger. In fact, I think it's the tiger through all of Asia.
1:55:06 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:55:08 Dax Shepard? And into Russia, except for the polar bear in the Arctic, I think is the apex predator. And then I think in the Americas, it's the grizzly bear.
1:55:17 Speaker 01 Okay. Okay.
1:55:20 Dax Shepard? Although we also have polar bears in the Americas, but.
1:55:22 Speaker 01 So this.
1:55:23 Dax Shepard? And then in South America, I would say it's the jaguar.
1:55:27 Speaker 01 All right. Well, this says apex predators are at the top of the food chain, acting as the highest tropic level, tropic level with no natural predators. In various ecosystems, these include lions, tigers, polar bears, orcas, and great white sharks. Humans are also considered top predators capable of affecting or being the absolute peak of many food chains. Now, this also breaks it down by environment. Land, lions, tigers, wolves, polar bears, and grizzly bears.
1:55:57 Dax Shepard? Grizzlies.
1:55:58 Speaker 01 Ocean, orcas, great white sharks, and leopard seals.
1:56:03 Dax Shepard? Mmm.
1:56:03 Speaker 01 Air, bald eagles, golden eagles, and other large raptors.
1:56:09 Dax Shepard? Yeah, raptors. I love raptors.
1:56:11 Speaker 01 Reptiles, saltwater crocodiles, and Komodo dragons.
1:56:16 Dax Shepard? Oh, Komodo dragon.
1:56:18 Speaker 01 Oh, my gosh.
1:56:19 Dax Shepard? Tell me about them. I guess you're with a saliva, it's nasty. Komodo.
1:56:24 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:56:26 Dax Shepard? Komodo.
1:56:27 Speaker 01 He loves her stinky mouth.
1:56:29 Dax Shepard? Oh, I guess you can smell them from quite a distance, those Komodo dragons.
1:56:33 Speaker 01 I'm sure.
1:56:33 Dax Shepard? Foul, bacteria-laden jaws.
1:56:36 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:56:36 Dax Shepard? Become poison.
1:56:37 Speaker 01 Speaking of that, have you noticed like that there's like somebody in your life who has not good breath?
1:56:48 Dax Shepard? Mm, mm, mm. As we've discussed, I'm very sensitive, hypersensitive to bad breath.
1:56:53 Speaker 01 But it's like, it's bad, but it's not like, it's not.
1:56:57 Dax Shepard? Objectively offensive?
1:56:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, and so it's like, I kind of think I'm the only one who notices this. And it's an unexpected person. I'm not gonna say who.
1:57:06 Dax Shepard? Okay, great.
1:57:06 Speaker 01 I don't think anyone else thinks this.
1:57:09 Dax Shepard? Uh huh.
1:57:09 Speaker 01 I've never been, no one's ever said it.
1:57:12 Dax Shepard? Gossiped about it?
1:57:12 Speaker 01 Exactly. No one's ever said anything to me alluding to the fact that that's the case.
1:57:17 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:57:17 Speaker 01 And, um, but yeah. It is repetitive for me.
1:57:21 Dax Shepard? It's rough. I mean, I had a friend who I could stop going to the movies with. I couldn't, just sitting next to them at the movies, all I could smell was their breath. And I just was like, I can't, I can't do it. I blame me, but I couldn't do it.
1:57:34 Speaker 01 And I just wonder though, is it pheromones? Because why can't you guys smell what I'm smelling?
1:57:41 Dax Shepard? I think obviously we all smell different things and we're, we're sensitive to different odors. Some, I mean, again, I see people who are in relationships with people who I think have wretched breath. And I think, well, they can't smell it.
1:57:56 Speaker 01 Right.
1:57:56 Dax Shepard? There's no way.
1:57:57 Speaker 01 I know.
1:57:57 Dax Shepard? Cause they're kissing and loving and right.
1:57:59 Speaker 01 I know.
1:58:00 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I don't think, or they're just not sensitive to smell, period.
1:58:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:58:04 Dax Shepard? Because I just think like, I just, I can't, it's a deal breaker for me.
1:58:07 Speaker 01 Same.
1:58:08 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
1:58:09 Speaker 01 But I just wonder also if it's actually more, is breath actually, I mean, maybe there's, there's obviously halitosis. There's some objective stuff, but maybe the rest of it is just pheromones.
1:58:21 Dax Shepard? Well, I also think there's certain medical conditions that give you kind of a predictable outcome. And I'm gonna leave it at that.
1:58:27 Speaker 01 Well, yeah, I just, I, I just, I was, I was somewhere and I had already thought it and then it was happening again.
1:58:33 Dax Shepard? What kind of activities you do with the person? Cause there's certain things where it's not an issue.
1:58:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:58:38 Dax Shepard? And there are others where like, again, the movies, you're sitting like,
1:58:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:58:41 Dax Shepard? Your, your mouths and noses are, are what, 18 inches apart.
1:58:45 Speaker 01 Right.
1:58:46 Dax Shepard? And so that might be a non-starter. Like, I love this person, but I'm just not gonna go to the movies with them. That's, that was my decision.
1:58:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's interesting. I, um.
1:58:55 Dax Shepard? And then there's also, there's the case too, where someone's, they have that and then they also tend to talk close and you're constantly trying to keep your distance and then you wonder if it's obvious.
1:59:06 Dax Shepard? I think the only one I'm unsympathetic to or unforgiving of is, um, I think when you're a dentist, you've got to be on it like no one's ever been on their breath.
1:59:16 Speaker 01 Yes, we've talked about this.
1:59:17 Dax Shepard? Because they are in your nose. They work in your nose.
1:59:20 Speaker 01 But they normally, they often, the hygienists often have masks on.
1:59:24 Dax Shepard? Do a goddamn thing. If you have shit breath and you got a little paper between there, forget it. That's not, no way. Have your friend wear a mask. Just make up a reason why it's cute if they wear a mask and see, you're still gonna smell it.
1:59:37 Speaker 01 It's not that strong. That's the thing. It's not like.
1:59:41 Dax Shepard? You're making a mountain out of a molehill?
1:59:43 Speaker 01 I mean, no, I just, I've just noticed it many times and I just wonder if anyone else has noticed it. And I don't think they have, which has just led me to believe, oh, this is something like pheromonal.
1:59:56 Dax Shepard? It's me. You're like, it's me.
1:59:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's, it's, it's.
2:00:00 Dax Shepard? Which again is possible.
2:00:01 Speaker 01 Well, it's not me. It's the way I, it's the way, yeah, my nose perceives.
2:00:07 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I'm smelling an odor here that other people don't smell, in which case I'm saying it's you.
2:00:12 Speaker 01 Well, right. I mean.
2:00:14 Dax Shepard? Like you're the anomaly.
2:00:16 Speaker 01 I'm the anomaly, I think, yeah.
2:00:18 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:00:19 Speaker 01 But I don't actually know. Maybe I'm not, maybe.
2:00:22 Dax Shepard? You could ask around.
2:00:23 Speaker 01 I could ask around. It feels really mean to do that.
2:00:27 Dax Shepard? Oh, man, I, I couldn't feel worse for someone who just can't. Help it. I mean, my God, I, I really feel terrible.
2:00:35 Speaker 01 It's also because it's a specific, it is a specific smell.
2:00:39 Dax Shepard? A note.
2:00:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's a note. So I know in that case, it is, it is a little pheromonal because it's not like, oh, this person ate something a second ago or something like.
2:00:51 Dax Shepard? They don't smell like a hot dog. They smell like their body.
2:00:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:00:55 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:00:55 Speaker 01 It's interesting. It's very interesting.
2:00:58 Dax Shepard? You should ask if you can smell their armpits and their groin to see if it's consistent everywhere.
2:01:04 Speaker 01 I mean, it's, this is a very, this.
2:01:07 Dax Shepard? Do you think people with better, more secure attachment styles don't smell odors as much?
2:01:13 Speaker 01 Maybe, maybe.
2:01:16 Dax Shepard? I think everything just ticks up.
2:01:18 Speaker 01 Sure.
2:01:18 Dax Shepard? When you were listening to all this stuff, did you self-assess as being any part of this spectrum?
2:01:23 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, we talked about it in the, in the episode. I definitely feel like I have an anxious attachment.
2:01:28 Dax Shepard? Anxious attachment.
2:01:29 Speaker 01 And you were saying you felt like you did lean a little avoidant.
2:01:32 Dax Shepard? When I was young. But the more I read about it, I was like, I think I'm secure attachment. I think that's what I felt in general after learning all about the thing.
2:01:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:42 Dax Shepard? But then I thought, oh, no, I was, I used to be avoidant. And then I think, yeah, you can change.
2:01:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:48 Dax Shepard? Just like the stuff I don't take person, like again, back to like the Instagram stuff, all this kind of stuff that drives people nuts. That I know that just I don't even think about.
2:01:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:01:58 Dax Shepard? Or getting invited to things or all that kind of stuff. I don't.
2:02:01 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, we can find out.
2:02:05 Dax Shepard? Is there a test?
2:02:06 Speaker 01 Yes. I know I can count on my friends to be there for me if I'm going through a rough time. And we got our normals. Agree strongly. Agree. Neutral. Disagree. Strongly disagree.
2:02:14 Dax Shepard? Uh, strongly agree.
2:02:15 Speaker 01 I sometimes feel like I'm not good enough for my loved ones.
2:02:18 Dax Shepard? Um, strongly disagree.
2:02:19 Speaker 01 I feel uncomfortable when my friends or family act like they rely on me.
2:02:23 Dax Shepard? Hmm. What's the middle?
2:02:24 Speaker 01 Neutral.
2:02:25 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:02:26 Speaker 01 And then there's disagree and agree, and then strongly.
2:02:29 Dax Shepard? I would say neutral.
2:02:30 Speaker 01 Okay.
2:02:30 Dax Shepard? Again, that has evolved.
2:02:32 Speaker 01 Right.
2:02:32 Dax Shepard? I used to felt feel burdened by that.
2:02:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:02:35 Dax Shepard? And now I feel lucky as much as I feel burdened. That puts me at neutral.
2:02:39 Speaker 01 Okay. I always make the first move, but usually become disinterested after I get what I want.
2:02:45 Dax Shepard? I disagree.
2:02:45 Speaker 01 Disagree.
2:02:46 Dax Shepard? Yeah.
2:02:46 Speaker 01 I know I can be my true self in relationships. Once I have enough time to get comfortable.
2:02:51 Dax Shepard? Hundred percent.
2:02:52 Speaker 01 I sometimes hold back on relationships because I feel that if I share too much about myself, I might get hurt.
2:02:57 Dax Shepard? I wish.
2:02:58 Speaker 01 Strongly disagree. I tend to worry that my loved ones don't love me as much as I love them.
2:03:03 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:03:04 Speaker 01 I consider myself a good friend and a good partner.
2:03:07 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:03:07 Speaker 01 I stay away from long-term relationships.
2:03:10 Dax Shepard? No, I've had nothing but long-term relationships.
2:03:12 Speaker 01 So strongly disagree.
2:03:13 Dax Shepard? Mm-hmm.
2:03:14 Speaker 01 Okay, being alone sometimes scares me.
2:03:17 Dax Shepard? I'd strongly disagree. Although, you know, I did, I ex- I experienced great boredom last week. Being alone on a Saturday night.
2:03:25 Speaker 01 Oh.
2:03:26 Dax Shepard? Cause I had to, Christmas was due to play and Lincoln had a play date.
2:03:30 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
2:03:31 Dax Shepard? So at first I was like, cool, I have my whole night to myself. And then I watched like three episodes of Fallout in a row. And I was like, I wanna be with somebody.
2:03:41 Speaker 01 Oh.
2:03:43 Dax Shepard? I was like, I'm bored with just myself watching the show. Yeah, yeah. I was like, I am, I am tragically social.
2:03:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03:52 Dax Shepard? It hit me.
2:03:52 Speaker 01 I like going out with friends and family, but I still value my personal time and space.
2:03:56 Dax Shepard? I mean, I prefer being out with people than I do by myself, but I'm not afraid to be myself. I don't know. What does that make me?
2:04:02 Speaker 01 You do value your personal time and space. You're always like, why are there so many people here? Why?
2:04:06 Dax Shepard? Oh, space. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:04:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, so.
2:04:09 Dax Shepard? So what does that mean? I agree?
2:04:11 Speaker 01 I think you agree.
2:04:12 Dax Shepard? Okay, I'll agree.
2:04:13 Speaker 01 I don't like relying on others and that way I avoid getting disappointed.
2:04:18 Dax Shepard? Uh, agree.
2:04:21 Speaker 01 I find it
2:04:21 Dax Shepard? You know what? Strongly agree.
2:04:23 Speaker 01 Uh oh.
2:04:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I gotta be honest.
2:04:24 Speaker 01 I think it's too late.
2:04:25 Dax Shepard? Okay, that's fine.
2:04:26 Speaker 01 I find it difficult to express love even when I feel it.
2:04:29 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:04:30 Speaker 01 I prefer casual flings than serious relationships.
2:04:33 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:04:34 Speaker 01 I avoid arguments with my partners, friends, or family to avoid the chance of losing them.
2:04:38 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:04:39 Speaker 01 Sometimes I want to be completely alone and then suddenly change to feeling like I need around people to be around.
2:04:45 Dax Shepard? Oh, that just happened Saturday night. Agree.
2:04:47 Speaker 01 Agree. I never make the first move in a potential relationship for fear of being rejected.
2:04:51 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:04:53 Speaker 01 My friends and family often tell me that they feel like they don't really know me.
2:04:56 Dax Shepard? Oh, never. Strongly disagree.
2:04:59 Speaker 01 If my partner went on a trip without me, I'd miss them but would ultimately be happy that they're having fun.
2:05:03 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:05:04 Speaker 01 A big portion of my self-esteem and self-worth comes from my relationships with other people.
2:05:08 Dax Shepard? Oh, strongly agree.
2:05:10 Speaker 01 Sometimes when I feel like I'm getting too close to someone, I get scared and start to push them, pushing them away.
2:05:15 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:05:16 Speaker 01 I feel bad when my loved ones do things without inviting me.
2:05:19 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:05:19 Speaker 01 I trust that the people I love want what's best for me.
2:05:22 Dax Shepard? The people that love me?
2:05:23 Speaker 01 I trust that the people I love want what's best for me.
2:05:26 Dax Shepard? Agree.
2:05:27 Speaker 01 I much prefer being alone, but I'll attend social engagements if I'm required to.
2:05:30 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:05:31 Speaker 01 Even when things get tough, I feel confident that my partner will support me and will work through challenges together.
2:05:36 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:05:37 Speaker 01 I often find myself over-analyzing interactions with my partner, wondering if they truly understand my feelings and intentions.
2:05:43 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:05:43 Speaker 01 Sometimes I push people away when they get too close, even though deep down I crave connection and intimacy.
2:05:48 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:05:49 Speaker 01 It's hard for me to relax in relationships because I'm always worrying about whether my loved ones truly care about me.
2:05:54 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:05:55 Speaker 01 I prefer to keep my emotions to myself, believing that vulnerability only leads to unnecessary complications and potential disappointment.
2:06:01 Dax Shepard? Hmm. Can I go neutral on that one?
2:06:03 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm. I enjoy spending time with my friends and family, knowing that we can share both good times and bad times with each other.
2:06:08 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree. It's really funny to answer these questions in my mind because I have like two different families. Which one are we talking about? Are we talking about the family I created or the one I was born into?
2:06:17 Speaker 01 Right. I feel uncomfortable when people get too emotionally close to me. I value my independence and personal space.
2:06:26 Dax Shepard? Emotionally dependent on me, that was part of the question?
2:06:28 Speaker 01 I feel uncomfortable when people get too emotionally close to me. I value my independence and process.
2:06:32 Dax Shepard? Okay, I disagree.
2:06:34 Speaker 01 Okay. Knowing that I have a strong support system of friends and family gives me the confidence to tackle life's challenges with optimism and resilience.
2:06:41 Dax Shepard? I disagree.
2:06:42 Speaker 01 I worry that if I show vulnerability or express my needs in relationships, I'll end up being rejected or abandoned.
2:06:48 Dax Shepard? I'd go neutral.
2:06:49 Speaker 01 I appreciate the balance between independence and closeness in my relationships, allowing me to pursue my own interests while still feeling connected to others.
2:06:56 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:06:57 Speaker 01 I often find myself feeling anxious about the state of my relationships, constantly seeking reassurance from my partner or friends to alleviate my doubts.
2:07:04 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:07:05 Speaker 01 I prefer to handle my problems on my own rather than relying on others for support or advice.
2:07:09 Dax Shepard? Agree. Maybe size, yeah.
2:07:13 Speaker 01 My mind often races with thoughts about potential conflicts or misunderstandings in my relationships, making it difficult to fully enjoy moments of connection without worrying about the future.
2:07:21 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:07:22 Speaker 01 When I face challenges, I feel reassured knowing that my friends will offer their support and encouragement without judgment.
2:07:27 Dax Shepard? Neutral.
2:07:28 Speaker 01 I tend to seek constant validation from my friends and romantic partners to reassure myself of their love and commitment.
2:07:34 Dax Shepard? Well, that's a tricky one, because I definitely like endless validation, but it's not to reassure myself that they like me.
2:07:40 Speaker 01 Hmm.
2:07:41 Dax Shepard? So I'm gonna go neutral. I just enjoy validation.
2:07:44 Speaker 01 I tend to downplay the importance of romantic relationships in my life, focusing instead of my individual goals and interests.
2:07:50 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:07:50 Speaker 01 Despite craving intimacy and connection, I struggle to fully trust others and often find myself holding back out of fear of being hurt or abandoned.
2:07:57 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:07:58 Speaker 01 I value the mutual trust and respect in my relationships, which allows me to be my authentic self without fear of rejection.
2:08:04 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:08:05 Speaker 01 Spending quality time with loved ones fills me with a sense of warmth and security, knowing that we have each other's backs no matter what.
2:08:10 Dax Shepard? Strongly agree.
2:08:11 Speaker 01 I have a tendency to push people away when they try to get close to me, fearing that allowing them in will only lead to disappointment or betrayal.
2:08:17 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:08:18 Speaker 01 Despite my efforts, I struggle to shake off the feeling of insecurity that lingers in my mind, questioning whether I'm truly valued and loved by those closest to me.
2:08:26 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:08:26 Speaker 01 I find it challenging to open up to others about my innermost thoughts and feelings, preferring to maintain a sense of distance to protect myself from potential rejection.
2:08:33 Dax Shepard? Disagree.
2:08:34 Speaker 01 The fear of rejection or betrayal sometimes prevents me from fully investing in relationships, leaving me feeling stuck in a cycle of longing for connection while simultaneously fearing it.
2:08:44 Dax Shepard? Strongly disagree.
2:08:44 Speaker 01 Independence is important to me, and I prioritize maintaining autonomy in my relationships, often avoiding becoming too reliant on others for emotional support or validation.
2:08:52 Dax Shepard? Agree.
2:08:53 Speaker 01 I have to pay.
2:08:54 Dax Shepard? Oh.
2:08:55 Speaker 01 I'm gonna do it.
2:08:56 Dax Shepard? Don't do it.
2:08:57 Speaker 01 It's $1.95.
2:08:59 Dax Shepard? Just a one-off? They're tricky. That was smart. They let you do the whole test.
2:09:02 Speaker 01 I know.
2:09:03 Dax Shepard? That's a feel betrayed. Is it his website?
2:09:05 Speaker 01 I don't think so. Oh, no. American Express is not supported.
2:09:09 Dax Shepard? Yeah, I bet people.
2:09:13 Speaker 01 Shit. I have to get another, my other card. Wow. Yeah, we have to know.
2:09:18 Dax Shepard? I think we know. You don't think we know? It's a fact check. Okay.
2:09:23 Speaker 01 Oh, secure. Your attachment style is secure. Secondary fearful.
2:09:28 Dax Shepard? Oh.
2:09:29 Speaker 01 The secure attachment style serves as the bedrock for healthy and fulfilling relationships, characterized by a strong sense of trust, emotional security, and a balanced approach to both intimacy and independence. Individuals with a secure attachment style have typically experienced consistent and responsive caregiving during their early years, fostering a foundational belief in the availability and reliability of others in times of need.
2:09:49 Dax Shepard? Okay, I guess myself, this time, my self-assessment.
2:09:53 Speaker 01 Was right.
2:09:54 Dax Shepard? Bore out.
2:09:54 Speaker 01 That's right. Yours goes 57.5% secure, 18.2% fearful, 16.7% dismissive, 7.6% preoccupied.
2:10:05 Dax Shepard? Okay.
2:10:06 Speaker 01 Interesting.
2:10:07 Dax Shepard? Interesting.
2:10:08 Speaker 01 Well, that was fun. Um, who did the marshmallow test? Walter Michel.
2:10:15 Dax Shepard? This is another one I've been repeating, finding out that the marshmallow test isn't real.
2:10:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:10:20 Dax Shepard? I mean, it's a real test, but it, the conclusions aren't.
2:10:23 Speaker 01 That's right.
2:10:23 Dax Shepard? Yeah. Boy, it's incredible to think how much work has been built on the shoulders of that.
2:10:30 Speaker 01 I know.
2:10:30 Dax Shepard? That's not right.
2:10:31 Speaker 01 Scary a little bit. The human brain consumes roughly 20% of the body's total resting energy, about 260 to 300 calories per day, despite representing only 2% of body weight.
2:10:43 Dax Shepard? Oh.
2:10:43 Speaker 01 That's it.
2:10:44 Dax Shepard? That's it?
2:10:45 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:10:46 Dax Shepard? Well, I enjoyed Amir.
2:10:48 Speaker 01 Me too.
2:10:49 Dax Shepard? Uh, we'll die with the great mystery of how old he is.
2:10:52 Speaker 01 Yeah. Um, anyway, yeah, Amir was great.
2:10:56 Dax Shepard? Love you.
2:10:56 Speaker 01 Love you.
Previous Amanda Peet Returns Next Armchair Anonymous: Remodeling Disaster Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated