Pod Insights American Scandal The Massacre at My Lai | Hunting Down Calley | 3 About this episode A soldier named Ron Ridenhour breaks the silence about Pinkville, writing a letter that alerts top officials in Washington to the rumors the Army tried to bury. His warning reaches investigative reporter Seymour Hersh, who sets out to uncover the truth about the My Lai massacre. As the military continues to evade responsibility, Hersh hunts down Lieutenant William Calley – the man accused of leading the slaughter.
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0:00 Lindsay Graham? Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. American Scandal uses dramatizations that are based on true events. Some elements, including dialogue, might be invented, but everything is based on historical research. A listener note: This episode contains descriptions of violence and may not be suitable for all audiences.
0:26 Lindsay Graham? It's April 20, 1968, at a US military base in South Vietnam. It's been just over a month since the massacre at Mela, and the men in Charlie Company who were there that day are all handling it differently. One of them is Private Charles Butch Groover. He sits alone at a battered metal table in the mess tent, a half-empty beer sweating in his hand. His eyes are unfocused, fixed on nothing at all.
1:10 Lindsay Graham? Groover takes another swig, trying to drown out his thoughts, when he hears a familiar voice: "Butch!" Groover blinks out of his daze as Ron Ridenhour steps by his side. Ridenhour is a 22-year-old who shipped out to Vietnam at the same time as Groover did. He sits down. When was the last time we saw each other? Hawaii? Uh, yeah. Uh, good old Schofield barracks. You still a door gunner? Yep, started in the 70th Infantry, then the 11th, about to head out to the 51st. Then gotten in moving around like no one's business. Well, it could be worse. Where'd they stick you? Still with Charlie Company? Nah, they're back near Donny now. I got rotated out last month. Wish it'd been sooner. What do you mean? You haven't heard about Pinkville? Uh, crawling with Viet Cong, right?
1:55 Lindsay Graham? Yeah, well, there weren't any when we got sent in. You really haven't heard? Ridenhour shakes his head. Groover glances around the mess hall and takes another drink. Oh God, it was this village called Meili. Intel said everyone would be Viet Cong, but the only ones there were women and children, some old guys. Ah, some folks got hit in the crossfire? No, I'm not talking about crossfire. I'm talking about lined up in ditches and then executed point blank. Jesus. I saw this one boy, God, he was tiny. Three, four years old? He was just standing there by the trail with these big eyes staring around like he just didn't understand, he didn't believe what was happening. Then the captain's radio guy opened up on him. Full burst, blew him away. You can't be serious. You think I joke about something like this?
2:40 Lindsay Graham? No, I guess not. Man, it was so bad. One of the guys in our squad even shot himself in the foot just to get medevaced out of there. That's heavy. Why didn't he just refuse? Why didn't anyone stop it? We were getting direct orders. To shoot kids? From who? I didn't see this firsthand, but guys I trust did. They said Lieutenant Callie was ordering them to round up the villagers and shoot them. How many? I'm not sure. The village had to have been 300 or 400 people. I don't know if any of them made it out alive. And Command is just covering it all up. But there's gotta be an investigation or something, right? Groover shakes his head. They're calling it a successful operation, Ron. Successful operation. Man, these were just women and kids.
3:28 Lindsay Graham? In the days that followed, Ron Ridenhour can't shake the story he heard from Butch Groover. The idea of innocent civilians being slaughtered for no reason eats at him night after night. And so he begins a quiet but relentless campaign to chase down witnesses, gather testimony, and then blow the lid off a secret the US Army would rather everyone forgot.
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4:43 Lindsay Graham? From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scam.
5:08 Lindsay Graham? The My Lai massacre was one of the most horrific war crimes in American history. Over the course of a single morning in March 1968, US Army soldiers killed more than 500 unarmed Vietnamese civilians, including women, children, and infants. And then the cover-up began. Commanders filed false reports, journalists were pressured to lie, and the official story painted an atrocity as a major victory. But not everyone stayed quiet. In the months and years after the massacre, there would be those who risked everything to expose what really happened. This is Episode 3, Hunting Down Cali.
5:48 Lindsay Graham? It's November 1968 at a surgical hospital in Chulai in South Vietnam. Ron Ridenhour walks down the narrow aisle between the beds, searching for a particular face amid the wounded men. The air smells faintly of antiseptic and mildew. Fluorescent lights flicker overhead, casting a cold sheen over the cots lined in cramped rows. Ridenhour's army service is almost over. He's due to ship out of Vietnam by the end of the year, but there's one person he needs to talk to before he leaves. He's been chasing rumors of a soldier who didn't join the killing at Myli, and now he thinks he's found him. Private 1st Class Michael Bernhardt is propped up in bed on a sweat-stained pillow.
6:30 Lindsay Graham? His legs are raw and bandaged from jungle rot, a brutal infection that eats through the skin. Ridenhour pulls up a chair and introduces himself. Then he explains why he's there, and without much prompting, Bernhardt starts to talk. At first Bernhardt's voice is flat and detached, but his memories are vivid. He says he watched villagers herded like cattle and machine-gunned in ditches. He saw children shot at point-blank range. And he names names, specifically Lieutenant William Callie, the man who had been giving the orders, and Captain Ernest Medina, who Bernhardt claims came up to him after the massacre and warned him to keep quiet. Bernhardt was terrified for his own life, so he nodded and agreed not to say anything.
7:15 Lindsay Graham? But now he knows he can't stay silent. Ridenhour shakes his head. After he first spoke to Butch Grover six months ago, deep down, he had hoped Butch was wrong, that the chaos of the operation had twisted his memories. But since then, Ridenhour had spoken to three other members of Charlie Company, and now Bernhardt. They all say the same thing: Myli was a massacre, and it's been deliberately covered up. So even though Ridenhour ships out the next month and returns home to Phoenix, Arizona, he doesn't forget what he's learned about Myli. Grover, Bernhardt, and the others trusted him enough to tell their stories. But they were all terrified to speak out while they were still in Vietnam and at the Army's mercy.
7:57 Lindsay Graham? But now that Ridenhour is back on the relative safety of American soil, he's determined that those responsible for the massacre are brought to justice. In March 1969, a full year after My Lai, Ridenhour sits down at his kitchen table, lays out his notes, and begins to write a letter. It's a five-page account of what he believes took place that morning in Vietnam. When he's finished, he sends the letter to more than two dozen officials in Washington. They include President Nixon, 23 members of Congress, the Secretaries of State and Defense, the Secretary of the Army, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Then, he waits. At first, nothing happens. Most of the recipients never even acknowledged the letter. But one takes it seriously.
8:40 Lindsay Graham? A congressman from Ridenhour's home state of Arizona reads the letter and is concerned enough to forward it to the Army's Chief of Staff, General William Westmoreland. Ridenhour then receives a letter in return from Westmoreland's office. It thanks him for bringing the My Lai matter to their attention and says it's now under investigation. Ridenhour feels like a huge weight has been lifted from his shoulders. While he's horrified about what happened in My Lai, he's still a loyal soldier. He hasn't taken his story to the press or leaked it anywhere else. He wants to believe that now the top brass is looking into the allegations, it means there will be proper accountability at last. And in late April 1969, the Army Inspector General's Office does launch a full inquiry.
9:24 Lindsay Graham? A veteran officer named Colonel William Wilson is asked to head up the investigation. His objective is simple: determine what happened on March 16, 1968, and whether it merits a criminal investigation. Over the course of the next month, Wilson speaks with all of the men who gave their accounts to Ridenhour. Then he meets with Charlie Company Commander Ernest Medina, who gives his version of events. Captain Medina claims that the 11th Brigade's Colonel Orin Henderson has already conducted an official investigation and found nothing wrong.
9:56 Lindsay Graham? But Wilson can find no trace of any such report, so he calls Colonel Henderson to Washington DC to set the story straight. On May 26, 1969, Henderson sits down in the Inspector General's office across from Colonel Wilson. The walls are blank and the lights are bright. It's not an interrogation room, but it feels that way. Henderson sits in a stiff wooden chair, his officer's hat laid neatly on the table in front of him. Wilson dumps through a thick folder of notes. The silence stretches between them. Then Wilson looks up and begins peppering Henderson with questions that are answered with practiced ease. Henderson admits that he conducted an informal investigation, but he repeats the official line that there was no civilian massacre.
10:40 Lindsay Graham? Instead, he insists that officers assure him that there was a brutal firefight that morning. When asked about helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson, whose account contradicts that story, Henderson suggests that Thompson is young and emotional. Likely, he was simply overwhelmed by the chaos and confused by what he thought he saw. Wilson listens and takes notes, letting Henderson talk. But the longer the interview goes on, the more Henderson begins to contradict himself. He eventually tells Wilson that there was actually another, more formal inquiry into the claims of civilian casualties led by Lieutenant Colonel Frank Barker, but nothing came of that probe either. Unfortunately for Wilson, he can't ask Barker himself about it.
11:22 Lindsay Graham? Not long after the Mele operation, Barker was killed in an aircraft accident. And when Wilson goes looking for any record of Barker's supposedly formal investigation, he again finds nothing. Wilson doesn't say his suspicions out loud, though the implication seems clear enough. If there ever was a paper trail, it's been scrubbed. But Wilson isn't deterred. He continues chasing down the men from Charlie Company, and all their accounts seem to point back toward the same man, the young lieutenant from First Platoon, William Callie. Wilson knows that the ultimate responsibility for what happened in Mele will be far-reaching. But according to almost every soldier Wilson talks to, Lieutenant Callie was the one rounding up the villagers, ordering his men to kill them, and pulling the trigger himself.
12:08 Lindsay Graham? So on June 5th, 1969, Wilson formally identifies Calley as a suspect, and Calley is immediately ordered to fly back from Vietnam to the US for questioning. A week later, helicopter pilot Hugh Thompson picks him out of a lineup, identifying him as one of the officers he confronted in My Lai. And then, on July 16th, Wilson interviews Private Paul Meadlow. In a moment of grim clarity, Meadlow admits to what he did in My Lai, confessing to killing unarmed civilians on Calley's orders. And with that, Wilson has all he needs. He submits his findings to the Army's Inspector General, who refers the case to the Criminal Investigation Division, or CID, making the My Lai investigation now a full-blown criminal inquiry.
12:53 Lindsay Graham? In August, the CID interviews former Army photographer Ronald Haverly. He and the reporter Jay Roberts were in My Lai to document the mission. Afterward, they both fell in line with the official story and kept the truth to themselves. But when the CID shows up, Haverly makes good on the promise he made a year earlier, that if anyone came asking for proof of what really happened, he provided. He hands over his trove of photographs, showing the bodies of Vietnamese civilians piled in ditches. And for the first time, the Army has hard evidence. So a month later, 26-year-old William Calley is officially charged with six counts of premeditated murder. Although the Army suspects the number of his victims may be as high as 109,
13:36 Lindsay Graham? publicly, they just release a vague statement that says Calley is being detained because of an ongoing investigation. That's enough to deflect the attention of most reporters, but not Seymour Hersh. He's a 32-year-old investigative journalist in Washington, once a rising star at the Associated Press, but having left his job there, now works for himself as a freelance reporter. And in October 1969, he's working in a cramped office on the 8th floor of the National Press Building. The walls are yellowed from years of cigarette smoke, and Hersh sits surrounded by notebooks. His head is down, working hard on a book about the Pentagon.
14:16 Lindsay Graham? But then the phone rings. "Yep, this is Seymour Hersh." "Uh, Mr. Hersh, I've got something for you." The caller is a young lawyer, new to Washington. A friend of a friend has given him Hersh's number. He doesn't want his name involved, but he's got a tip. "The Army's about to court martial a soldier down in Fort Benning in Georgia. They're keeping it quiet." "Well, why's that? What for?" "Seventy-five South Vietnamese shot dead. It could be more." "Viet Cong?" "No, civilians. Women and kids even." Hersh opens a new notebook and grabs a pen. "Well, who's the soldier?" "I don't know. They're keeping that under wraps." "But he's at Fort Benning?" "Yep, down in Georgia." "Okay, what else? What can you give me? Any documents, dates, anything solid?" "No, that's all I've got.
15:01 Lindsay Graham? It's all just a bunch of whispers right now, but they seem pretty credible." "Well, can I talk to anyone else who might know more?" "Nah, I can't get anyone else involved, and keep my name out of it too, okay? They're keeping this all quiet for a reason. There's a lot of people who don't want this getting out."
15:19 Lindsay Graham? Seymour Hersh sits frozen in his chair for a moment, the phone still gripped in his hand. His mind is already racing. He's covered the Pentagon a good deal in the past. He knows how stories can be buried if the authorities want them to be. But a court martial for mass murder seems like a whole different ballgame. Hersh finally drops a receiver back into its cradle, then rises from his chair, yanks on a battered overcoat, and grabs his notebook off the desk. He should forget about this phone call and focus on his book. He doesn't have a budget for this story or an editor interested in buying it. But he has something more important to him than any of that. He has a lead, and his gut is telling him to follow it.
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17:29 Lindsay Graham? After getting a tip about a potential war crime in Vietnam, investigative reporter Seymour Hersh starts digging. He goes to the usual places first: checking the military's reporting system, the public records, anything filed and forgotten that might point to trouble. But there's no sign of a massacre or any mention of misconduct at all. So he digs deeper, scouring through court records and news reports, but still he comes up empty. Then Hersh gets lucky. He's in the Pentagon chasing down military records when he bumps into an Army general. They know each other from Hersh's days at the Associated Press, before the general injured his knee and got pulled from the field. They've always been on friendly terms, and now they trade jabs and rib each other in the hallway.
18:12 Lindsay Graham? Hersh jokes that the general shot himself in the knee just to get promoted, and the general fires back that he heard Hersh didn't leave the AP but got fired. The two men laugh, but Hersh is already steering the conversation where he needs it to go. And when the laughter dies down, he mentions that he's heard some nasty rumors about a massacre in Vietnam.
18:32 Lindsay Graham? The mood shifts suddenly, and the general shakes his head. He places his hand about knee height, and then tells Hirsch, "That guy, Callie, he didn't shoot anyone higher than this. He just shot little kids. He deserves everything he gets." Hirsch freezes. This is not just confirmation that some sort of massacre did take place. He's now also got a name. After he rushes home, Hirsch calls in all his favors, trying to find out who exactly this Callie might be. When Hirsch follows up with a contact in a congressional office, they warn him to stay away from the story. They say Callie is just a kid who lost it on the battlefield, and it's not worth the trouble. But Hirsch doesn't listen. Instead, he pokes around some more, and eventually, he finds out the name of Callie's lawyer.
19:17 Lindsay Graham? George Latimer isn't just any defense attorney. He's a World War II veteran and a highly respected former judge on the U.S. Court of Military Appeals, the highest court in the military justice system. Now in his late 60s, he's a partner in a law firm in Salt Lake City. So Hirsch calls Latimer up, but doesn't confront him with what he knows about the massacre. He thinks he needs to win Latimer's trust, so he makes his pitch carefully. He tells Latimer that he's heard Callie's being railroaded, that the Army is using him as a scapegoat. This strategy works. Latimer bites and says, "Yes, he's defending Callie, and yes, it is a miscarriage of justice." So Hirsch tells Latimer that he'll be out west soon, and asks if he can stop by the office to discuss the case in person.
20:02 Lindsay Graham? Latimer agrees, and in late October 1969, Hirsch makes his way to Utah.
20:11 Lindsay Graham? It's a Wednesday morning around 10:00 a.m. when Seymour Hirsch strolls into the law office of George Latimer in Salt Lake City. Latimer sits behind a polished oak desk, and Hirsch approaches, holding out his hand. Mr. Latimer, pleasure to meet you, sir. Hirsch, is it? Yeah, sit, please. It's a beautiful office you've got here. Makes my old AP desk look like a broom closet. Well, well, thank you. And I appreciate you seeing me. I wanted to talk about your client, Lieutenant Callie. I hear they're keeping him at Fort Benning. Latimer peers over his thick-rimmed glasses. "Well, you know I can't discuss specifics, Mr. Hirsch." "No, no, of course not, but let me ask you this." "I've heard the Army offered him a plea bargain that included jail time. Is there any truth to that?" "The government makes offers. That doesn't mean we accept them." "So you said no?"
20:56 Lindsay Graham? "I told them never." "That boy was just doing what he was told. They're trying to make an example out of him." "But it's the senior officers who should be on trial here, not Cali." Hirsch shifts in his seat, bracing to ask his next question. "Well, I've been hearing some numbers. I've been told Cali might be responsible for the death of over 150 civilians." Latimer flushes with anger. "150? Now that's a lot." Latimer pushes back from his desk and steps over to a filing cabinet. He rifles through a drawer before pulling out a single piece of paper. "If you want to know what he's being accused of, here. This is what they say he did." Latimer slaps a paper on his desk. It's a charge sheet. Hirsch leans forward to read it.
21:37 Lindsay Graham? "Premeditated murder of 109 Oriental human beings? That's very specific." "It's also unproven." Latimer pulls the charge sheet back toward him, but not completely out of sight. Hirsch tilts his head and starts discreetly copying it onto his notepad, reading upside down while pretending to listen as Latimer goes on. "You have to understand, he's a lieutenant, Mr. Hirsch, just 24 years old." "Boy, really, following orders in a war that makes no sense." "What happened in that village was a tragedy. There's no doubt of that. No one would deny it." "But we can't let the full weight of it fall on one young officer." "Not when everyone up the ladder knew what was happening." Hirsch looks up. "So you think senior officers knew about this?" "Knew about it. They practically encouraged it."
22:25 Lindsay Graham? Seymour Hirsch doesn't ask too many follow-up questions. He doesn't want to run the risk of George Latimer telling him their conversation is off the record. Instead, he shakes the lawyer's hand and turns on his heels, knowing exactly where he's off to next.
22:41 Lindsay Graham? On November 11th, 1969, Seymour Hersh heads to Georgia. He's convinced that Lieutenant William Callie is being hidden somewhere on the Fort Benning Base while he awaits his court martial. Fort Benning is an open facility, so gaining access isn't a problem. But the base is huge, almost the size of New York City. Between the training facilities, residential blocks, and the airfield, there's a lot of places to hide someone. But Hersh is not deterred. He's been a reporter for a long time. Finding people is what he's good at. He starts by bluffing his way into several military prisons, figuring they'll be keeping Callie in one of the holding facilities where they house soldiers awaiting trial. But he can't find him. So he stops by the military's legal offices and asks for Callie there.
23:25 Lindsay Graham? The sergeant at the desk tells him to stay right where he is. For a moment, Hersh thinks he might be getting somewhere, but in fact, this sergeant is under strict orders to alert a colonel if anyone comes asking about William Callie. The last thing Hersh wants is to get kicked off base before he can figure out where Callie is, so he bolts from the office before the sergeant can detain him. But he's no closer to finding Callie. He keeps searching, and eventually gets a tip from a G.I. who handles Callie's mail. That leads him to Callie's personnel file, and in that, Hersh finds a local address. By the time Hersh reaches the condo listed in the file, it's nearly 5 o'clock in the afternoon. He's been on the move all day and is a bit exhausted, but he knows it'll be worth it
24:09 Lindsay Graham? if he can finally find Callie. But he doesn't. A group of young Army officers lives at that address, but Callie isn't one of them. They say he moved out weeks ago. Hersh sighs. He feels like he's hitting one dead end after another. Seeing his tired and disappointed face, the officers invite him in for a drink, because he looks like he needs one. Hersh accepts, and over a glass of cheap bourbon, one of the officers reveals Callie's new location. He's bunking in quarters usually reserved for more senior men. Hersh quickly says his goodbyes and heads over to this new address. It's a complex of two-story buildings with its own tennis court and swimming pool. With no other clues to go on, Hersh just begins knocking on doors.
24:52 Lindsay Graham? After several hours without success, it's getting late, and he's about ready to call it a night. But as he heads across the parking lot to his car, he hears a shout from the building behind him. It's one of Callie's neighbors. He calls out that the man Hersh is looking for has finally come home. Hirsch stuffs his car keys back in his pocket and turns around to race back to the complex. He finds Lieutenant William Callie standing outside. Hirsch introduces himself and the two men shake hands. Then Hirsch explains that he's a journalist who's come to Georgia to get Callie's side of the story. Callie likes the sound of that, and he invites Hirsch upstairs to his apartment. There they sit down over beers and start talking on the record.
25:34 Lindsay Graham? When he first started looking for Callie, Hirsch expected to find a kind of monster, but instead he discovers that the pale-faced Callie is fragile, defensive, and clearly afraid. With little prompting, he launches into his version of what really happened in Vietnam: an implausible tale of heroism under fire, full of dramatic shootouts and communist ambushes. He talks and drinks for hours. Hirsch just listens and encourages him. But as Callie drinks into the dawn, his voice slurs and his story begins to unravel, growing more contradictory and less credible. Eventually, Hirsch decides it's time to go, but before he leaves, Callie insists that Hirsch speak with his commanding officer, Captain Ernest Medina.
26:18 Lindsay Graham? Medina was the one in charge of Charlie Company, and Callie insists that he was the one who gave the orders at Meli. Callie grabs his phone and dials his former captain's number, positive that Medina will back up his story. But when Medina answers and hears what Callie is asking, he flatly denies everything. He says he has no idea what Callie is talking about, then hangs up. Callie stares at the phone in his hand, the dial tone droning. He looks stunned, because in that moment it seems to Hirsch that Callie has finally realized something: his commanding officers are not going to back him up, and he's going to be the one left holding the bag for what they all did in the village of Meli.
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28:26 Lindsay Graham? After tracking Lieutenant William Callie down to his hiding spot on Fort Benning, journalist Seymour Hersh believes he secured the scoop of a lifetime. Now he just has to get the story out. But that won't be easy. His interview with Callie is explosive, and anyone who publishes it will likely feel the wrath of the White House and the Pentagon, as well as their lawyers. But Hersh has no intention of softening the allegations. He wants a publisher with the guts to run the story as is. Hersh starts with the big names first, but the editors at Life and Look magazines both turn him down. His contacts over at the New York Review of Books are more interested, but they want to shape the piece into something overtly anti-war, and Hersh refuses to editorialize.
29:09 Lindsay Graham? He's not trying to score political points with this. He believes the horror of Meili can speak for itself. So in the end, he gives up on the national publishers and he takes the story to a smaller outfit called Dispatch News Service. Based in Washington, they've only been up and running for a year, and their editor is just 23 years old. But unlike the other outlets, they agree to publish Hirsch's story without any edits, and it goes out on November 13, 1969. Dispatch News copyrights the story and takes full legal responsibility for the allegations Hirsch makes. That opens the door for other newspapers to run the story, including the Boston Globe, the Chicago Sun-Times, and the Washington Post, which publishes an edited version of the report on its front page.
29:54 Lindsay Graham? But not everyone jumps on board. The New York Times doesn't run the story, nor do any of the major television networks. They're more cautious because there's no hard proof in Hirsch's article to back up the allegations, and the Pentagon isn't giving any comment either. Still, that doesn't stop people from hearing about the story. The public is split in their reaction. For anti-war protesters, it's proof of everything that is wrong with America's involvement in Vietnam. But for those who still support the war, it's an unfair attack on US troops doing their best in an impossible situation. Many military men come forward to defend Calley, and top politicians question Hirsch's motives in even publishing the story. Even some fellow journalists accuse him of sensationalism.
30:36 Lindsay Graham? For many of them, it seems the idea that US soldiers could carry out such an atrocity is just too painful or unpatriotic to accept. But despite the backlash, Hirsch isn't finished with the My Lai story yet. Other soldiers who served along Lieutenant Calley and Charlie Company come forward with another name and a new lead: Private First Class Paul Meedlow. He's a farm kid who apparently followed Calley's orders and mowed down scores of Vietnamese villagers. Hirsch knows that if America is going to face up to what happened at My Lai, it can't be reduced to a single villain or one rogue lieutenant. So Hirsch now heads to the Midwest, to the quiet town of New Ocean, Indiana, looking for the bigger truth.
31:22 Lindsay Graham? Hirsch glances down at the address scrawled in his notebook as he drives down a long stretch toward a ramshackle family farm. He parks his rental car out front. A woman comes out to greet him. And when Hirsch explains why he's come, she points him to a second, smaller home on the property. Hirsch makes his way into a kitchen, where Paul Meadlow is pouring himself a coffee. With his soft face and glasses, he doesn't look much like a killer. He glances up at Hirsch. Can I pour you a cup? I just made it. Yeah, sure, thanks. And I appreciate you letting me come by. Well, not much else going on around here. It's peaceful, that's for sure.
31:58 Lindsay Graham? Guess I needed some of that. Here you go. Meadlow hands Hirsch a cup of coffee. They both take a seat at the kitchen table. Okay, well, why don't we start kinda easy? Tell me about yourself. You're 22 now, right? Married? Yeah, before I even went out to Vietnam. We've got two kids, a two-year-old boy and we just had a daughter. Wow, congratulations. Thanks. They keep me grounded, you know, when I start remembering things. Yeah, I can imagine. My wife, she doesn't ask too many questions. I think she's scared to know. That's pretty common. What have you been doing since getting home? Well, I've got myself a job at the factory. It's not the easiest. I've still got this. Meadlow pulls up his pant leg, showing a prosthetic. Yeah, mind me asking how that happened?
32:43 Lindsay Graham? Yeah, sure. My lieutenant ordered us to go down an uncleared path and a mine exploded. Blew my foot right off. I spent months in an army hospital in Japan, but it'll never be right. And would the lieutenant who gave you that order be William Callie by any chance? Yes, it would. You're not his biggest fan? It is a miracle that guy didn't get us all killed. Meadlow looks down. I thought it was a sign when the mine went off. A sign? A sign of what? I just remember thinking, maybe it was God punishing us for what we did. You mean at Meadlow? Meadlow nods. But then I thought, why me? And why not Callie, for Christ's sake? Well, he's getting court-martialed now. I guess that's something. You don't sound sure.
33:27 Lindsay Graham? I mean, what does it matter now? Folks either don't believe it or don't want to hear it. They're just gonna let him get away with everything, just sweep it all under the rug. Well, maybe. Maybe not. I mean, if you're loud enough, they won't be able to ignore you. You really think so? I know, if you're ready to tell me what happened that day.
33:46 Lindsay Graham? Paul Medlow eventually gives Seymour Hersh an on-the-record eyewitness account of what he did at My Lai. And once he starts talking, he doesn't want to stop. Soon after his interview with Hersh, Medlow agrees to repeat his story on national television. In an appearance on CBS News, Medlow confesses to killing women, children, and even babies. His interview strips away any lingering doubt the public may have about what happened at My Lai. His flat, haunting voice forces Americans to confront the massacre not as a rumor, but as a reality. And with every new revelation about the My Lai massacre, public shock and outrage grow, and attention turns to the Pentagon. Many Americans suspect the military's top brass is trying to conceal the truth, that
34:30 Lindsay Graham? the full story has yet to emerge. So in Washington, there are hastily arranged meetings about how to respond and how the Army can recover from this crisis. Saying nothing is no longer an option, as the public's faith in the military is wavering. Congress is now demanding answers as well, so something has to be done. On November 26, 1969, Secretary of the Army Stanley Reeser heads to Capitol Hill. The Senate Armed Services Committee has summoned him for a hearing on the massacre allegations, and he's determined to use this opportunity to finally take charge of the story. A hush falls as he takes his seat in the center of the room. A row of photographs lies face-up on the long table before him. They're the pictures that Ronald Haverly took in My Lai.
35:15 Lindsay Graham? They show houses aflame, terrified women clutching their children, and dead bodies piled in dishes. Reeser clears his throat and begins a lengthy statement. With a deliberate and unwavering tone, he admits the truth: American soldiers committed mass murder in My Lai. The Army failed to stop it, and then they failed to investigate it properly. But then Reeser says that all changes now. He tells the senators that a new, comprehensive and independent inquiry has been ordered. It is to be led by Lieutenant General William R. Pierce, a 55-year-old combat veteran with no ties to the division involved in the massacre and no tolerance for half-truths. In front of the senators, Secretary Reeser stresses that Pierce's mission is not just
35:59 Lindsay Graham? to establish the facts of what happened on the ground, but also to judge the adequacy of the investigations and reviews that followed. In other words, he is to establish whether there was a cover-up. After Secretary Reeser's appearance before the Senate hearing, he knows the press and public will seize on the Pierce inquiry as a turning point. For the first time, the US military is acknowledging that its troops committed mass murder in Mele. But what Reeser doesn't yet know is exactly how deep the rot goes and how close this new investigation will come to unraveling the Army from within.
36:35 Lindsay Graham? From Wondery, this is episode three of The Massacre at Mele for American Scandal. In our next episode, Lieutenant William Callie stands trial for the murder of more than 100 civilians at Mele. As the nation watches, the courtroom becomes a battleground over duty, obedience, and who should bear the responsibility for the costs of war.
36:58 Lindsay Graham? American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com.
37:32 Lindsay Graham? If you'd like to learn more about the massacre at My Lai, we recommend the books My Lai: Vietnam, 1968, and The Descent into Darkness by Howard Jones, Cover Up by Seymour Hersh, and The Forgotten Hero of My Lai: The Hugh Thompson Story by Trent Andrews. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases, we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Trisham Farag. Sound design by Gabriel Ghul. Supervising sound designer Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Alex Burns. Fact checking by Alyssa Jung Perry. Managing producer Emily Byrne. Development by Stephanie Jans.
38:16 Lindsay Graham? Senior producer Andy Beckerman. Executive producers are William Simpson for Airship, Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Aaron O'Flaherty for Wondery.
38:32 Lindsay Graham? By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men. So he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress to the enemy
39:17 Lindsay Graham? and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
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