Ruby Ridge Standoff | Down from the Mountain | 4

Negotiators make a final attempt to resolve the standoff before an FBI assault team moves in with force. Later, both the Weavers’ and the government’s actions are scrutinized in a criminal trial and congressional hearings. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ http://wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

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• 0:25Lindsay Graham?

  It's the evening of August 28, 1992, on Ruby Ridge in the mountains of North Idaho. Former Special Forces Agent and right-wing personality Bo Grietz sits inside an armored personnel carrier as it slowly drives up a steep slope. The rocky terrain makes for a bumpy ride, and Grietz holds tight to a handle on the ceiling. Also in the vehicle is FBI negotiator Fred Lansley. The two men are on their way to a ramshackle cabin at the top of the hill where Randy Weaver, his family, and a friend have been holed up for nearly a week following a shootout with government agents. Two days ago, Grietz appeared at a protest near the property. He wanted to show his support for the Weaver family and offered to negotiate an end to the standoff.

• 1:07Lindsay Graham?

  At first, the FBI brushed him off, but yesterday, all that changed. When Weaver learned that Grietz was in Idaho, he asked the FBI to send him up to the mountain to talk face-to-face.

• 1:22Lindsay Graham?

  The armored vehicle comes to a stop 200 feet from the cabin, and Grietz gets to work. He undoes the hatch on the roof of the vehicle and tilts a megaphone toward the opening.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  Randy, this is Bo Grietz. They say you want to talk to me. Can you hear me?

• 1:37Lindsay Graham?

  Weaver yells something in response, but Grietz can't make it out. He turns to Lansley. And I'm gonna stick my head out of the roof here. But don't worry, he's not gonna shoot me. And if he does, well, I've been shot at before. Grietz stands up and lifts his head and shoulders through the hatch.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  Randy, please speak up so I can hear you. Is everyone all right in there?

• 1:57Lindsay Graham?

  No, no. I've been hit in the hand, Kevin shot in the shoulder. He's in a lot of pain and...

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Vicky's dead. A sniper shot her in the head. The feds are trying to cover it up, Bo.

• 2:10Lindsay Graham?

  Grietz is shocked because no one has told him this. Randy, I-I'm so sorry. We're gonna bring this vehicle closer so you and I can talk face to face without this megaphone. But as Grietz looks to FBI negotiator Lansley, he shakes his head, reluctant to move any closer. Grietz ducks down into the APC. Hey, look, Fred, your guys seem to have killed Randy's wife. We need to show some human touch here if we want to go trust. Lansley gives a reluctant nod and moves away from the hatch to give instructions to the driver. The APC moves closer to the cabin. And as soon as it stops, Grietz opens the door and steps outside. He then raises his palms in the air, showing he's not a threat.

• 2:52Lindsay Graham?

  He walks slowly toward the cabin, stopping just a few feet from the door. Hey Randy, it's me, Bo. I'm real sorry about Vicky. I had no idea. Weaver's strained voice comes through the door. I've been telling the feds for days, but they're pretending not to hear. They don't want people to know the truth. Well, maybe so. But now I know, don't I? And I promise the rest of the world will know too as soon as I get back down the hill. Well, be careful they don't shoot you. I got it out for people like you and me, Bo, patriots and Christians. I know what you mean, Randy, but look. Your sister and Vicky's family are down the hill. We're all praying that you and the kids come out of that cabin safe. Maybe you could let me take the kids now, and I can bring them to see their grandparents.

• 3:36Lindsay Graham?

  Grietz waits through a long silence. Bo, I appreciate you coming, but I think we've done enough talking here today. You just head back now and tell everyone about Vicky. Break it easy to her folks. Tell them she didn't suffer. Alright, I understand, and I'll do what I promised. Glad we talked, Randy. I'll come back up here tomorrow, if that's okay.

• 3:58Lindsay Graham?

  As Grietz walks back to the FBI vehicle, he feels a glimmer of hope. The news about Vicky is shocking, but he's the first person to get that close to the Weaver's home without trouble since the standoff began. And Grietz knows that from here on out, he'll be the broker between the two sides. He just hopes that he'll be able to resolve the situation with words before the government decides to do so with force.

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• 5:19Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scam.

• 5:43Lindsay Graham?

  By the night of August 28th, 1992, the standoff on Ruby Ridge was nearly a week old, and three people were dead. U.S. Marshal Billy Deegan had been killed in the initial firefight, along with Randy Weaver's 14-year-old son, Samuel. Then a day later, Vicki Weaver had been shot by an FBI sniper. All subsequent attempts to negotiate an end to the siege had failed, and almost no one had even been able to talk to Randy until the arrival of Bo Grimes. As a former soldier and an icon of the far right, Grimes had the credentials to win Randy's trust, and the federal authorities soon realized that he was their best hope of ending the standoff without more bloodshed. So after the news of Vicki Weaver's death was announced to the public, the FBI sent

• 6:26Lindsay Graham?

  Grimes back up the hill to continue negotiations with the Weavers. But this time, he wouldn't go to the cabin alone. This is episode four, Down from the Mountain.

• 6:40Lindsay Graham?

  It's the morning of August 29th, 1992, on Ruby Ridge. A short distance from the Weaver's cabin, family friend Jackie Brown stands beside Richard Rogers, head of the FBI's hostage rescue team. Brown holds a large cardboard box filled with supplies: fresh fruit, milk, apple juice, and baby formula. Bringing groceries to the Weavers is nothing new for Brown. She's been running errands for the family ever since Randy became a fugitive 18 months ago, but she never imagined she'd be doing so while a federal agent with a rifle stood guard next to her. Both Brown and Rogers are watching as Bo Gries finishes his conversation with Randy from outside the cabin door. Then he steps away and heads toward them.

• 7:22Lindsay Graham?

  He tells Brown that the Weavers have asked her to go inside alone. But before Brown can move, Rogers grabs her shoulder. He tells her to be quick, because if she stays in the cabin too long, the FBI will have to consider her a hostage, or worse, an accomplice. With that warning ringing in her ears, Brown heads to the cabin with the supplies. She climbs the porch's creaky wooden steps and calls out to the Weavers in a loud voice. She says that she's alone and asks them to unlock the door. A moment later, she hears the bolt sliding back. She nudges the door open with her foot and steps inside. Immediately, she sets the box on the floor and locks the bolt behind her. It takes a moment for her eyes to adjust to the darkness of the cabin,

• 8:06Lindsay Graham?

  but then Brown sees Randy and his daughters huddled in a corner of the far side of the cabin. Randy is holding a rifle. 16-year-old Sarah and 10-year-old Rachel are also both armed, while 10-month-old Alicia is on the floor at their feet, playing with blocks. The family's friend Kevin Harris is slumped on a recliner nearby. He looks too weak to stand. And as Brown's gaze wanders to the kitchen area, she sees Vicky's body underneath the table, covered in a bloody sheet. Vicky was one of her best friends, but Brown wants to stay strong for the family, so she tries not to get too emotional. But then the Weaver girls rush across the cabin and throw their arms around her, and all three begin to cry.

• 8:49Lindsay Graham?

  Wiping away her tears, Brown suddenly remembers the FBI's warning. She escapes the children's embrace and picks up the cardboard box. While she hands out the supplies, Randy lays out the saga of the past week. He explains they never intended to shoot it out with the feds, but the marshals ambushed them when they were out hunting, and everything spiraled from there. Brown asks what it will take to end the standoff, get the family safely out of the cabin, but it's Sarah who speaks up, saying that that will never happen. The feds will take the first chance they can to finish off the rest of the family. Brown isn't sure what to think. When she was talking to the FBI, it seemed like the government was desperate to end things peacefully, but now that she's heard the story from the family's side, she wonders if maybe Sarah is right.

• 9:33Lindsay Graham?

  The government has already killed two Weavers, so who's to say they'll hesitate to take out the others? Brown doesn't express her concerns, and instead tells the family she wishes she could stay longer, but that she's been warned to keep the visit brief. As she begins walking to the door, she feels Sarah slide something into her hand. And looking down, Brown sees it's a sanitary pad. Hold it inside is a six-page letter, laying out what Sarah thinks is the truth of everything that's happened. Randy speaks up in a whisper, asking Brown to smuggle that letter out of the cabin, make copies, and give them to reporters she can trust. It could be the family's only chance to tell their side of the story before the feds silence them forever.

• 10:15Lindsay Graham?

  Brown nods and lifts her skirt, hiding the pad in her underwear. As Brown then exits the cabin and heads back down the porch steps, she hopes what Randy fears won't come true, that the letter isn't the final word from the family. But if it is, she'll do whatever it takes to keep her promise and let the world know what really happened in the final days of the Weaver family.

• 10:39Lindsay Graham?

  For the FBI, Jackie Brown's visit to the Weavers' cabin is a positive step forward. For the first time, the family seemed willing to open the door and let someone inside. And looking to build on this momentum, the government decides to send former Green Beret Bo Grietz up to the cabin again the following day. This time, he's joined by Jack McLamb, a friend of Grietz's. McLamb is a retired police officer and a right-wing author and conspiracy theorist. He has a newsletter that Randy subscribes to, and the FBI hopes that together, he and Grietz can convince the Weavers to surrender.

• 11:16Lindsay Graham?

  When they arrive at the cabin, Bo Grietz and Jack McLamb walk slowly up the steps, then they stop at the locked door. Randy, it's Bo, and I got Jack McLamb with me. We're hoping to come inside. A moment later, Randy Weaver speaks out from behind the door.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  Hey, fellas. Jackie brought enough food to last for a few days, so we're all set for now.

• 11:36Lindsay Graham?

  Well, Randy, we're not here with supplies. We'd like to take Kevin down the hill to get medical attention. Sounds like he's hurt pretty bad.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  You don't need to worry about that. Kevin's been sucking down that apple juice Jackie brought, and he's feeling a lot better. Color's back in his face.

• 11:50Lindsay Graham?

  Well, that's good, but here's the thing. You know I saw more than a few men take a bullet in Vietnam. And sometimes with young guys like Kevin, they start to look good, but then things take a real bad turn all of a sudden. One minute, you're talking to them like normal, and the next, they're in septic shock.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  Well, I ain't throwing Kevin out of my house. If he wants to leave, that's up to him.

• 12:09Lindsay Graham?

  Okay, but look, Randy, I'll be straight with you. His life is in your hands now. If you don't get him some help, you're no better than that sniper.

• 12:18Speaker 04

  Uh, hold on.

• 12:21Lindsay Graham?

  Grietz waits on the porch for what feels like an eternity, as he strains to hear the faint sound of voices inside. Then Weaver returns to the door.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  All right, I talked it over with everyone, and the girls want Kevin to stay. Sarah says the feds are gonna kill him. He's the only living witness to the shootout with the Marshals.

• 12:39Lindsay Graham?

  Ah, damn it, Randy, you're the man of the house. You need to make this decision. And Kevin being the only witness is half the reason you ought to let me take him. Nobody's gonna know what the feds did to Sammy if Kevin doesn't make it out of here alive. As Grietz waits for Weaver's response, he wonders if he's gone too far. Grietz is the only negotiator trusted by both sides. And if Weaver objects to his tone now, the negotiations could be done for good. But then Grietz hears the bolt on the door slide open.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  Okay, door's unlocked, Bo. Come on in, lock it behind you.

• 13:14Lindsay Graham?

  Bo Grietz breathes a sigh of relief as he pushes open the door. Finally, it seems that Randy Weaver is softening and listening to reason. And if Grietz can get Kevin Harris out of the cabin, then maybe he has a shot at getting the rest of the family out too.

• 13:31Lindsay Graham?

  Once they're inside the cabin, Bo Grietz and Jack McLamb are able to convince Kevin Harris to leave with them. They safely walk the injured young man down the hill and enter the arms of FBI physicians on sight. Soon after, Harris is flown to a nearby hospital. It's a major breakthrough, but the standoff is not over yet. So that same day, Grietz, McLamb, and family friend Jackie Brown return to the cabin. And this time, they bring a body back. Weaver weeps as he helps Grietz pull his wife's body from underneath the kitchen table. The two men slide Vicki into the bag while Jackie scrubs her dried blood from the floor. But as Grietz goes to close the bag, though, Weaver stops him. He wants to take one last look at his wife.

• 14:14Lindsay Graham?

  He remarks how beautiful Vicki was, and looks away, and nods at Grietz, who then zips up the bag. Grietz hoists Vicki's body gently over his shoulder, and then carries it from the cabin. He lays it on a cot, and then walks back inside, hoping he can finally persuade the family to surrender. But when Weaver peeks out the window, he lays eyes on the FBI surveillance robot in the front yard for the first time. This robot has been a frequent visitor to the cabin, but Weaver has never dared take a look at it before. Now, he's horrified to see that the device has a remote-controlled shotgun on it, aimed directly at the cabin. Weaver becomes agitated, convinced that the robot will open fire the moment he steps outside. Greitz tries to reason with Weaver, but it's no use.

• 14:58Lindsay Graham?

  So eventually, he, McLamb, and Brown head back down to base camp and hope to try again later. As the sun sets, the optimism Greitz had just hours before begins to fade. The professional FBI negotiators are losing hope as well. And with the crowd of protesters at the site growing larger and more unruly by the hour, some members of the hostage rescue team are itching to take over the operation and make a final assault on the cabin. This knowledge hangs over Greitz and McLamb as they head up the hill again the following morning, because this could be their last chance. Both men are wearing wires, and as they approach the cabin, Greitz goes over the plan one more time. They know they're running out of time, so they may have to be forceful with Weaver,

• 15:42Lindsay Graham?

  which means things could get heated. If the negotiation breaks down, and it looks like there may be violence, they'll need to be prepared. McLamb will grab the kids and rush them out the door to safety, while Greitz will tackle Randy to the floor and yell the code word "ALASKA" into his wire, signaling the FBI to rush the cabin. But as the men reach the door, Sarah yells to them from inside, telling them to stay back. She explains the family won't be surrendering today. They've decided to wait until September 9th, the day of the Feast of Trumpets. It's a sacred date for the family, one that appeared in Vicky's prophetic visions. Greitz does the math: that's nine days from now. He shouts back to Sarah that there's no way the FBI assault team will hold off that long.

• 16:26Lindsay Graham?

  So Greitz removes a folded piece of notebook paper from his jeans pocket and slides it through the crack in the door. He explains to Randy that this is a letter from a pair of skinheads at the protest site Randy met previously at a meeting of the Aryan Nations. A moment later, Randy opens the door, eager to discuss the letter. Greitz and McLamb quickly step inside and shut the door behind them. Greitz takes the opportunity to lay it all out for Randy. He explains that the government is spending a million dollars a day on this standoff, and they're desperate to get it over with. But if the Weavers surrender now, Randy's got a good chance of avoiding prison. Greitz says he's been talking with Gary Spence, the best defense lawyer in the country, and he's agreed to represent Randy at trial.

• 17:08Lindsay Graham?

  Randy thinks it over for a moment, and concedes it's probably best to leave now, before the FBI moves in and the children get hurt. Greitz smiles in relief, but then Sarah steps between the men. She announces that the family won't be leaving, being convinced that they'll be shot the moment they step outside, just like her mother and brother. Trying to hide his frustration, Greitz promises Sarah that the children can return to the cabin for the Feast of the Trumpets if they want, though he knows the FBI will never actually allow that. And then he assures Sarah that he and McLamb will personally shield the family with their own bodies as they walk out the cabin. He'll even handcuff himself to Randy until they make it down the hill. But still, Sarah shakes her head no. So Greitz turns back to Randy and gives him a look.

• 17:52Lindsay Graham?

  It's time for Randy to be a man, to be a father, and make a decision. A moment later, Randy rests his hand on Sarah's shoulder. He tells his daughter to take the pistol out of her holster and start gathering their things, because it's time for all of them to leave.

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• 19:25Speaker 06

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• 19:53Lindsay Graham?

  Shortly after noon on August 31, 1992, the 11-day standoff at Ruby Ridge finally comes to an end. Randy Weaver leads his family down the hill, cradling his baby in one arm and holding on to Bo Grimes with the other. Reaching the meadow at the bottom, the Weavers are bewildered by the scene that greets them. Several hundred federal agents, many of them heavily armed, are camped out stationed here just for them. Then Randy is handcuffed, placed onto a stretcher, and taken to a medical tent. Soon after, he says goodbye to his daughters Sarah and Rachel, and then he's loaded onto a helicopter and transported to jail. Hours later, the girls are flown to Iowa to be cared for by their grandparents.

• 20:34Lindsay Graham?

  That night, attorney Gary Spence hops on a jet to Boise to meet with Randy Weaver for the first time. Spence is one of the most famous lawyers in the country. His clients have included nuclear power whistleblower Karen Silkwood, the first lady of the Philippines, Imelda Marcos, and he's never lost a criminal trial. In the days leading up to Randy's surrender, Spence was contacted by Bo Grimes, and in an effort to help end the standoff peacefully, Spence agreed to meet with Weaver following his eventual arrest. But now Spence has learned that Grimes exaggerated the promise, telling Weaver that the attorney had already agreed to represent him at a trial. In reality, Spence is wary of representing a man he's never met, especially one who's apparently some kind of Nazi sympathizer.

• 21:17Lindsay Graham?

  So before Spence makes any promises of his own, he decides he needs to look Weaver in the eye. Spence travels to the Ada County Jail in Boise. He's dressed in the signature Western style he's famous for, with a tan buckskin coat and gray cowboy hat. And as he steps into the cell, Weaver rises from his jailhouse bed. Based on the cable news reports, Spence expected to find a wild-eyed extremist, but the man standing before him looks frail and broken. So Spence begins by telling Weaver that he has only agreed to this single meeting so far. If he's to act as Weaver's lawyer, Weaver will need to accept some ground rules. Spence bluntly informs Weaver that he disagrees with all of his political and racial beliefs. Spence has Jewish and black relatives

• 22:02Lindsay Graham?

  and won't tolerate disrespect for them in his presence, nor will he spend a minute defending those beliefs in court. If he chooses to represent Weaver, Spence's only job will be to ensure he gets a fair trial based on the evidence, just like any other American citizen. To Spence's surprise, Weaver agrees to the terms without hesitation. But Spence is still not sure he wants to represent him. He needs to know that this is a winnable case, so Spence has Weaver take a seat on the bed and tell him the whole story of the standoff, starting from the very beginning. As Spence listens, he finds Weaver to be earnest and truthful. Through tears, Weaver gives a very different account than what's been in the media. And while Weaver's decisions throughout the ordeal were often foolish and stubborn, the heart of the story isn't about a white supremacist

• 22:47Lindsay Graham?

  looking for a shootout with the feds. To Spence, it sounds more like a case of a man being entrapped by the ATF for a low-level crime and an overzealous government killing his wife and child for no good reason. So as Spence continues to listen to Weaver, he imagines himself in the courtroom, laying into the federal agents and exposing their multiple errors for a horrified jury, making this sound like a very winnable case.

• 23:16Lindsay Graham?

  Soon after their jailhouse meeting, Gary Spence agrees to defend Randy Weaver. Another highly qualified lawyer, David Nevin, takes on the defense of Kevin Harris, and together, they soon learn the challenge ahead. As prosecutors prepare for trial, they decide not to simply charge Weaver and Harris with the shootings at the compound. Instead, their strategy is to present those actions as part of a larger conspiracy based on the defendant's radical beliefs. The prosecutor's goal is to pin the entire standoff on Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, holding them responsible for not just the shooting of Marshal Billy Deegan, but also the deaths of Samuel and Vicky Weaver, regardless of who fired the shots. In all, Weaver and Harris are charged with 10 counts, including conspiracy to provoke a confrontation,

• 24:01Lindsay Graham?

  assaulting and impeding marshals, killing Agent Deegan, and firing at an FBI helicopter. Additionally, Weaver is charged with sawing off a shotgun and his failure to show up for trial, stemming from his original arrest 18 months earlier. The trial begins in April of 1993. From the outset, the focus is on the question of who shot first in the initial confrontation. On the stand, the marshals tell a story of being chased through the woods, hunted down and shot at by Samuel and Harris. They also suggest that Weaver somehow shot and hit the marshals from his cabin a quarter mile away. But the defense uses ballistic evidence and contradictions in the testimony to argue that it was in fact Marshal Art Roderick who fired first when he killed the Weaver's dog,

• 24:46Lindsay Graham?

  and that Harris was acting in self-defense when he fatally shot Marshal Deegan. Later, when ATF informant Kevin Fadley takes the stand, the defense spots another weakness in the prosecution's case. Under cross-examination, Fadley admits that he gets paid on a case-by-case basis, and he will only receive a payout if Weaver is convicted. Spence argues that this gave Fadley a financial motive to entrap Weaver. But just as the defense team thinks they're making progress, a new dynamic is suddenly introduced to the case. A week into the trial, horrific news breaks out from Texas. Once again, federal agents have engaged in a shootout with well-armed religious extremists with disastrous consequences.

• 25:28Lindsay Graham?

  The siege at Waco is like Ruby Ridge all over again, but on a much larger scale. This standoff ends with a massive fire and the deaths of 86 people. Worried about the effect this may have on the trial, the judge in the Weaver case instructs the jurors to disregard the news out of Waco and stay focused on the facts in front of them. But Gary Spence spots an opportunity. He uses the public outrage over the events in Texas to his advantage. He peppers references to Waco in his cross-examination of government agents, attempting to tie the two tragedies together in the minds of the jurors. He wants to show that they are both part of a dangerous new tendency in law enforcement. And for Spence, one man represents this deadly trend more than any other:

• 26:11Lindsay Graham?

  a government agent who was on the scene at both Ruby Ridge and Waco, the FBI sharpshooter Lon Horiuchi.

• 26:21Lindsay Graham?

  On the morning of June 4, 1993, Gary Spence is seated at the defense table inside the courtroom in Boise, Idaho, when he hears the door at the back of the room swing open. Spence watches as FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi walks into the room, flanked by four armed FBI agents. Spence knows the tight security is warranted. There's intense anger among the far-right over what happened at Ruby Ridge, and much of it is directed specifically at Horiuchi. But as Horiuchi takes his seat on the stand, Spence hopes to take some of that anger and instill it in the hearts of the jurors. Spence begins by retrieving Horiuchi's rifle from a nearby evidence table. It's an intimidating-looking weapon. The thick barrel is painted in camouflage,

• 27:04Lindsay Graham?

  with a large scope on top and a tripod on the bottom. Spence holds it up for the jurors to see, and then hands it to Horiuchi. Now, is this the gun you shot Randy Weaver with? And then Vicky Weaver and Kevin Harris? Yes, sir, it is. And you intended to kill both Mr. Weaver and Mr. Harris, didn't you? Yes, sir. Our normal procedure is to try to neutralize threats at the same time. So first, you shot Mr. Weaver near the shed, striking him in the hand. And then you saw Kevin Harris running for the cabin. Yes, sir. And you wanted to kill him, didn't you? Yes, sir. Spence notes the matter-of-fact way Horiuchi is talking about taking a life. He knows the sniper must be coming off as unsympathetic to the jurors, so Spence continues.

• 27:47Lindsay Graham?

  Now, just before you shot Mr. Harris, you knew the cabin door was open, didn't you? At that time, yes, sir. And didn't you know that there was a possibility of someone being behind the door? There may have been? Yes, sir. Spence lets that answer linger for a moment, allowing the jury to imagine a sniper firing through an open door with a mother and her young children inside. And he goes on. And you heard a girl screaming after firing the shot that killed Vicky Weaver. Those would have been the screams of her daughter Sarah. Yes, sir, I did hear that. That screaming went on for what, 30 seconds? About 30 seconds? Yes, sir. I just want us to take 30 seconds now, all of us, and hear in our minds that screaming, because I think you'll find 30 seconds is longer than you think.

• 28:33Lindsay Graham?

  Gary Spence turns toward the clock on the wall and begins counting the seconds. The courtroom goes completely silent. From the corner of his eye, Spence looks over at the jury. A woman in the front row puts her head in her hands. His gambit is having its intended effect. And for the moment at least, the jury is not seeing the Weavers as a gang of extremists, but rather the victims of cold-blooded government aggression.

• 29:00Speaker 07

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• 29:01Speaker 04

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• 29:07Speaker 07

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• 29:14Speaker 04

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• 29:21Speaker 08

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• 30:03Lindsay Graham?

  In the first week of June, 1993, FBI sniper Lon Horiyuki wraps up his testimony as the prosecution's final witness. It's now been two months since the trial began and more than nine months since the end of the standoff at Ruby Ridge. But throughout that time, a troubling pattern has developed. Time and again, the government has dragged its feet in turning over crucial evidence to both the defense and prosecution. Both sides have become exasperated with the delays, and the defense has accused the government of trying to mount a cover up. And a few days after Horiyuki's testimony finished, it happens yet again. Prosecutor Ron Howan receives a package from the FBI containing notes from an interview with Horiyuki, conducted just hours after the shooting.

• 30:46Lindsay Graham?

  This package includes a crude drawing made by Horiyuki showing what he saw in the cabin at the moment he fired the shot that killed Vicky Weaver. The sketch shows his target, Kevin Harris, and crucially, two circles in the windows of the door depicting the heads of people inside. This drawing suggests Horiyuki may have seen Vicky before he fired, potentially contradicting his previous testimony. Howan checks the package, and his heart sinks. This highly relevant evidence was postmarked two weeks ago. The FBI sent it via fourth-class mail.

• 31:19Lindsay Graham?

  And when Howan shares these notes with the court, the judge is furious. He fines the FBI and calls Horiuchi back to testify about the drawing. Defense lawyer Gary Spence again grills Horiuchi on the stand, but Horiuchi insists he was unable to see through the door's windows because the shades were drawn. The circles on his sketch were just his best guess at the locations of Randy and Sarah Weaver, who had entered the cabin a second earlier. So Horiuchi's additional testimony doesn't offer the defense a clear win, but it all adds to the sense that the government isn't playing fair. And becoming certain that he's poked enough holes in the prosecution's case, Spence then declines to call any witnesses of his own. It's a bold move that surprises the courtroom, but Spence thinks it's a sign of confidence.

• 32:04Lindsay Graham?

  So the judge allows the jury to depart and begin their deliberations. With a mountain of complex and contradictory evidence to digest, the jury's discussions stretch on for nearly a month, becoming the longest in Idaho's history. But on July 8, 1993, the jurors are finally ready to deliver their verdict. That morning, Randy Weaver is seated at the defense table in the courtroom, flanked by his co-defendant Kevin Harris and both of their legal teams. As Weaver awaits the verdict, he nervously taps his feet and looks around the courtroom. It's a packed house with reporters, family, and agents from the Marshals, the ATF, and the FBI. Weaver has no idea what the verdict will be. He knows Spence gave him the best possible defense,

• 32:45Lindsay Graham?

  and the evidence the government witnesses gave on the stand was deeply flawed and contradictory. But after the entrapment, the false information he was given about his original trial, and the subsequent shootings, it's impossible for Weaver to trust the justice system. He could be going home tonight, but he thinks it's just as likely he'll be headed to prison for the rest of his life. So Weaver watches intently as the foreman hands the verdict to the judge. A moment later, the judge asks him and Kevin Harris to stand. The judge begins with Harris. He's been charged with five offenses, and he's found not guilty on every single one. Weaver looks to Harris and sees his friend begin to weep. He reaches out and pats him on the back. A moment later, the judge turns his attention to Weaver.

• 33:28Lindsay Graham?

  Weaver closes his eyes as he listens for the verdict on the first count. Failure to appear at his original trial back in 1991. He's found guilty. Weaver knows he can't argue with that, but it's still not a good sign. He bites his lip as the half dozen remaining verdicts are read out in quick succession. On the charge of making illegal firearms, not guilty. Assaulting federal officers, not guilty. Conspiracy to provoke a violent confrontation, not guilty. Using a firearm to commit a violent crime, not guilty. Now only one charge remains, the one that could send Weaver to prison for the rest of his life. First-degree murder in the death of Marshal Billy Deegan. Weaver holds his breath until the verdict is read. Not guilty.

• 34:11Lindsay Graham?

  Weaver breaks into a wide smile and mouths a silent "thank you" toward the jury. Then he looks upward, thinking of his wife and son. He knows they must be looking down and smiling too. Following the verdicts, Kevin Harris is immediately released from custody while Randy Weaver heads back to jail to await sentencing on his single conviction. In October 1993, Weaver is sentenced to 18 months in prison for his failure to appear at the original trial. But with time already served and deductions for good behavior, he's released just two months later, in December 1993. Weaver then flies to Iowa to be reunited with his surviving children. Soon after, the family files civil suits against the government for the wrongful deaths of Vicky and Samuel.

• 34:56Lindsay Graham?

  Separate suits are also filed on behalf of Weaver and Harris for violation of their rights. In all, the government settles for a total of roughly $3.5 million. But the acquittals, lawsuits, and compensation are not enough for some. Within America's far-right, the anger over the standoff in Idaho continues to build. And in April 1995, it's expressed in the most devastating way possible. The anti-government extremist Timothy McVeigh detonates a truck bomb outside of a federal building in Oklahoma City. The explosion kills 167 people, including 19 children. After McVeigh is apprehended, he explains that he was seeking revenge against the government for their actions at Waco and Ruby Ridge.

• 35:39Lindsay Graham?

  And with the bombing still at the center of the country's attention, the US Senate holds hearings looking into the events that took place in northern Idaho. On September 6, 1995, Randy Weaver himself comes to Washington to testify.

• 35:55Lindsay Graham?

  Dressed in a blue denim shirt and tennis shoes, Weaver sits beside his lawyer, Gary Spence, as he tells the senators his story. I want to say I'm not without fault in this matter. I did sell sawed-off shotguns to an ATF informant, and I did fail to appear for the trial. If I had to do it over again, I would make different choices. But we had a good reason to fear and mistrust the government, and so my family made a decision that I would not come down. That brought the marshals to my home, but it did not cause them to shoot my son in the back or the FBI to kill my wife as she was holding our baby daughter. As the memories come flooding back, Weaver begins to choke up. Senator Herb Cole speaks up to reassure him. Now, take whatever time you need, Mr. Weaver. Thank you.

• 36:40Lindsay Graham?

  My decision did not cause the FBI to send in snipers with orders to kill my family, to shoot them on sight without investigating what had really happened the previous day. The FBI was acting on bad information. When the sniper killed my wife, he had not witnessed anyone commit a crime. He was judged, jury, and execution. I'm here today to do all of my power to avoid such tragedies in the future. I want the citizens of this country to learn from our tragedy so that no one else will ever have to suffer like me and my girls. Citizens who cannot trust their government band together in fear. If people in positions of power commit unlawful acts and are not held accountable, then the citizens' fear of the government is justified. I ask you to see to it that those persons who killed my wife

• 37:25Lindsay Graham?

  and my little 14-year-old son are brought to justice. I ask it for me, my family, and my country. As Weaver collects himself, Senator Cole leans forward. Mr. Weaver, there's a certain mythology that has grown up surrounding your name that people are using to justify violence, in particular, what happened in Oklahoma City. How do you feel about that? Sir, I am so sick of that and sick of my name being in the news, period. I never wanted to lead anybody anywhere. All I wanted was to be left alone with my family. I can't be responsible for what other people do, but there's no justification for what happened in Oklahoma City. I know what it's like to lose a child, and I would never wish that on anyone. Mr. Weaver, you said that you would do things differently today.

• 38:10Lindsay Graham?

  Do you consider yourself a changed man? Oh, yes. I'm probably a lot more compassionate now. After you've seen things happen to people you love like I did, that changes you. What are your hopes for the future? To live with my kids, my grandkids in peace. And to bang the law? Yes, sir. Yes, sir, absolutely.

• 38:32Lindsay Graham?

  At the end of his testimony to the senators, Randy Weaver turns to his lawyer and lets out a deep sigh. He's been living a nightmare for most of the past five years. And while nothing can bring back Vicky and Samuel, he can finally feel some sense of closure. Now, he just wants to get back to Iowa and hug his kids.

• 38:53Lindsay Graham?

  The events at Ruby Ridge were followed by years of government infighting. Officials within the Department of Justice blamed each other for the failures that led to the tragedy. And multiple FBI officials were investigated for allegedly trying to disguise their roles in the controversial changes to the rules of engagement. Assistant Director Larry Potts was initially suspended before being demoted. And another official was sentenced to 18 months in prison for shredding a document pertaining to the investigation. But in the eyes of many Americans, justice had not been done. FBI Director Louis Freeh publicly criticized the rules of engagement, but concluded that they didn't directly lead to the death of Vicky Weaver. Freeh insisted that no FBI agents had committed any crimes or even misconduct. And the only punishments he handed out

• 39:38Lindsay Graham?

  were minor reprimands for the poor handling of evidence. But U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno was more critical. She called the sniper Lon Horiuchi's actions unconstitutional and recommended that the shooting be evaluated for possible criminal punishment. Years later, a local prosecutor in Idaho filed an involuntary manslaughter charge against Horiuchi, but that charge was eventually dismissed. In the absence of true accountability, the Ruby Ridge standoff would be a rallying cry for America's resurgent far-right for decades to come. Randy Weaver himself would live out the rest of his days as a minor celebrity, signing copies of his book about the siege at gun shows for $20 apiece. But by the time he died in 2022, at the age of 74,

• 40:23Lindsay Graham?

  the fear and suspicion that lay behind the events in northern Idaho would have spread. The shots fired at Ruby Ridge had echoed down from the mountain. They had been heard all across America.

• 40:37Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, this is the fourth episode of our series on the standoff at Ruby Ridge for American Scandal. On our next episode, I speak with Professor Andrew Whitehead from Indiana University, Indianapolis, who's written two books on the rise of Christian nationalism that inspired the Weavers and increasingly shapes modern American politics. American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 41:20Lindsay Graham?

  And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com. If you'd like to learn more about the events at Ruby Ridge, we recommend the books Every Knee Shall Bow by Jess Walter, Police State by Jerry Spence, and the PBS American Experience documentary, Ruby Ridge. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executed, produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Mohamed Shazia. Sound design by Gabriel Ghul. Supervising sound designer, Matthew Fuller.

• 42:05Lindsay Graham?

  Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Corey Metcalf. Fact checking by Alyssa Jung Perry. Managing producer Emily Burr. Development by Stephanie Jens. Senior producers are Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Executive producers are William Simpson for Airship, Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom. Impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene. And the driver of the pickup? He doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.