Ruby Ridge Standoff | Deadly Force | 3

In the fallout of the initial gun battle, the government sends dozens of highly-armed agents to Ruby Ridge. But as they work under a fog of bad information, FBI leadership takes the extraordinary step of altering their rules of engagement, leading to more bloodshed. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to American Scandal on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season. Unlock exclusive early access by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today by visiting wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ http://wondery.com/links/american-scandal/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lindsay Graham?

  Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 0:24Lindsay Graham?

  It's the late afternoon of August 21, 1992, at FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. Larry Potts is in his office rifling through printouts on his desk. Potts is the Bureau's Assistant Director in Charge of Criminal Investigations, and he's trying to get his head around an ongoing emergency brewing in the mountains of northern Idaho. Only a few hours ago, a group of U.S. Marshals were running a surveillance mission on the property of fugitive Randy Weaver. But as the Marshals headed back to their base camp, they came face-to-face with Weaver, his son Samuel, and a family friend, Kevin Harris. A firefight ensued, leaving one Marshal dead, and at least one member of the Weaver clan was hit too. But it hasn't been confirmed who it was or whether they're still alive.

• 1:09Lindsay Graham?

  Weaver wasn't even on Potts' radar until this morning, and he's struggling to put the pieces together. But it's been decided that the Bureau's Hostage Rescue Team will deploy immediately. This is an elite group with special training and some of the best snipers in law enforcement. But before the team heads to Idaho, Potts wants to discuss the mission with the Hostage Rescue Team leader. So when Richard Rogers, head of HRT, arrives at the office, Potts brings him right in. Rogers, great. I know you've been briefed on the situation in Idaho. Take a seat. What's your read on it? Well, frankly, sir, this might be the most dangerous situation the HRT's ever faced. We've got an ex-military suspect with special forces training and an ax to grind with the government.

• 1:52Lindsay Graham?

  He's holed up with two other adults, both reportedly armed, and four kids, one of them just a baby. It's a mess. Potts flips through the report. It says here even the kids might be armed. Yeah, the boy Samuel, he was with his father and this Kevin Harris guy when they chased down the marshals. It was a totally unprovoked attack. The marshals were leaving the property. And it's not over yet. Apparently, the family is still out there shooting. Two marshals are pinned down in the woods and they're trying to get a local SWAT team there to walk them down the hill. How does a fourteen-year-old boy end up shooting at federal agents with a semi-automatic? Well, this seems to have been a long time coming. The marshals have been trying to negotiate with Weaver for over a year and a half, I hear, but he won't budge. Won't even talk to his own lawyer. And who are they?

• 2:36Lindsay Graham?

  I've heard they're some sort of religious extremists? Yeah, and maybe more than that. Weaver was close with Aryan Nations. Their headquarters is just down the road from Ruby Ridge. That whole part of Idaho is crawling with those militia types. So the longer this drags out, the more likely some of them might show up looking to escalate. Alright, so we've got a hostile compound, kids with guns, extremists in the area, which I guess brings me to the big one. Are you, are you equipped to end this? I know there's been some talk about changing the normal rules of engagement. Well, we're locked and loaded, sir, but yeah. Given what's already happened, there's a strong argument that the current rules of engagement tie our hands a bit. I mean, one of our guys is dead. Shots have been fired from the ridge. That, that could justify treating any armed adult as an imminent threat, whether they're actively pointing a weapon or not.

• 3:22Lindsay Graham?

  I see. And you'd like the rules of engagement updated to reflect that, I guess? It would make sense to me. Now, I want you to take lead on this. Draft some new language, and I'll run it past legal while you're on the flight.

• 3:36Lindsay Graham?

  Only a few hours ago, Larry Potts had never even heard of Ruby Ridge. But now, he's sending his men out to confront a heavily armed family who've already shown no qualms about killing federal agents. So he hopes the altered rules of engagement will help keep his men safe and bring the standoff to a rapid conclusion.

• 3:59Speaker 01

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• 4:29Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Kenya Barris.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  We're bringing you fresh, new conversations from guests like Anderson Paak, David Zedars, Ryan Howard, Rich Roll, Amy Sheldon and many more.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  Sign up for a free trial to Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 4:57Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham and this is American Scam.

• 5:21Lindsay Graham?

  By the time the FBI hostage rescue team was in the air in August 1992, there had already been two fatalities at Ruby Ridge. U.S. Marshal Bill Deegan and 14-year-old Samuel Weaver had been killed in a firefight in the woods. But both sides thought they were the ones who had been attacked and both sides thought they were still in imminent danger. This confusion was typical of the entire situation. The standoff had been sparked by Randy Weaver's failure to appear at trial on gun charges. But Weaver had refused to give himself up mainly because of mistakes made by the government. First, he was wrongly told he stood to lose his property if he was convicted. Then he was given the incorrect court date. He quickly became convinced that the federal authorities were setting him up and refused

• 6:06Lindsay Graham?

  to cooperate any further. But it wasn't just Weaver who was acting on bad information. Contrary to what the FBI believed, the Weavers had not chased the Marshals through the trees and gunned them down. Instead, they had just been following their dog. And they hadn't continued firing at the Marshals after the initial shootout either. The shots that echoed across the hills had been fired harmlessly into the air by Randy Weaver as he grieved his dead son. But the fog of confusion and mutual fear that hung over the mountain would only deepen in the hours to come. Now, more armed men were heading to Ruby Ridge, and the situation was about to get much worse. This is episode 3, Deadly Force.

• 6:50Lindsay Graham?

  It's 9:00 a.m. on August 22nd, 1992, just under 24 hours since the shootout on Ruby Ridge. Lon Horiuchi strides into a National Guard building in Bonners Ferry, Idaho, a small town about 20 miles from the Weavers' property. Horiuchi is a sniper with the FBI's elite hostage rescue team, and he's here for a briefing on their mission before heading into the field. At just under 40 years old, Horiuchi has been with the HRT for about a decade, but he's never seen this type of manpower assembled for a single mission before. All 50 of his fellow HRT agents are here. Like Horiuchi, they are all fitted out for battle in green fatigues, Kevlar vests, and helmets.

• 7:31Lindsay Graham?

  Horiuchi takes a seat as the room falls silent, and HRT lead Richard Rogers begins the briefing. He tells them that they're headed into an active firefight. One Marshal has already been killed, and a SWAT team has been dispatched to rescue the two surviving Marshals. Nearby homes have been evacuated, but news of the shooting has spread quickly. Friends of the Weavers have begun to arrive at the scene, along with a growing number of radical, right-wing, anti-government protesters. The crowd is currently being held at a roadblock on a bridge leading to the area, but dozens of state and federal agents are also standing guard in the woods surrounding the Weaver compound. They're ready to deter any protesters who try to sneak around the roadblock and join the fight.

• 8:12Lindsay Graham?

  Hearing all this, Horiuchi is starting to understand why all 50 HRT agents have been called in. Rogers tells the room that he has no intention of allowing the situation to escalate. They don't want this turning into a long, drawn-out siege. They're going in, hard and fast, to end it. As such, the rules of engagement for this mission have been amended. Horiuchi leans forward, to listen closely. He knows the FBI's standard rules of engagement by heart. A framed printout of those rules hangs in his office. They're the backbone of every mission, and he can't recall any previous operation where they've been changed. The new rules are printed out on a sheet that Rogers holds in his hand.

• 8:52Lindsay Graham?

  He reads, "If any adult in the compound is observed with weapons after the surrender announcement is made, deadly force can and should be used to neutralize this individual." The phrase "can" and "should" catches Horiuchi's ear. That sounds like he's not just allowed to fire on armed adults, but is actually being encouraged to do so. Then Rogers continues, "If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed if a shot can be taken without endangering the children." "As for the children," Rogers goes on, "any subjects other than Randy or Kevin Harris, presenting threat of death or grievous bodily harm, standard FBI rules of deadly force apply." Horiuchi understands that this means that even the children can be fired upon,

• 9:37Lindsay Graham?

  but only if someone's life is in danger. And now that the new rules of engagement have been presented, the briefing wraps up. Horiuchi gathers his gear, ready to catch his ride to Ruby Ridge. He's headed into what sounds like a war zone, but his orders are clear. If he sees an adult with a gun, it's his job to neutralize them.

• 10:00Lindsay Graham?

  At around 5:00 PM, Lon Horiuchi joins a team of his fellow snipers as they make their way up the hill toward the Weaver's property on Ruby Ridge. They take up positions in the dense forest a few hundred yards from the cabin. Their primary objective is to observe the Weaver family and report what they see back to base camp. But they all keep in mind that they've been given the green light to shoot any armed male adult they see on the property. Then, just before 6:00 PM, Horiuchi's lying on his belly in the underbrush when he hears an FBI armored personnel carrier on the move further down the hill. It's gonna be bringing more agents to the scene, but one of the Weaver's dogs immediately begins barking in response to the engine noise.

• 10:41Lindsay Graham?

  Moments later, Horiuchi sees sixteen-year-old Sarah Weaver emerge from the cabin to look around. She's unarmed, but is soon joined by Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris, though Horiuchi cannot tell which is which. But they're both carrying guns, which means that according to the revised rules of engagement, Horiuchi believes he's free to open fire. Horiuchi has a clear shot, but he holds off, waiting to see what they're up to. But then from behind him, Horiuchi hears a helicopter approaching. "Those in the compound here are two." Randy Weaver sprints toward one of the sheds and grabs onto the low slung roof to swing himself behind it. Horiuchi thinks he's taking a defensive position and preparing to fire on the helicopter. He considers calling out an order to surrender,

• 11:26Lindsay Graham?

  but he doesn't think anyone in the compound would be able to hear him from this distance. So fearing for the safety of the people in the helicopter, Horiuchi fires a shot. He aims for Weaver's spine, but at the last moment Weaver moves. The bullet catches his hand before burying itself in the splintering plywood of the shed. Grimacing with pain, Weaver screams to the others to get inside. They all sprint back toward the cabin, but Horiuchi doesn't want to let the men get inside. He's afraid they'll return fire while using their children as human shields. So he follows them with his scope, waiting for the right moment. When the trio reaches the cabin's front door, there's a bottleneck as they all try to squeeze through.

• 12:06Lindsay Graham?

  Sarah and Randy get inside first, but before Kevin Harris can follow, Horiuchi takes a shot. He sees his target flinch as he dives into the darkness of the cabin out of sight. Horiuchi has no idea who he's hit, or if anyone's been killed, and he's not thought about the possibility that Vicky Weaver might be standing behind the door with her ten-month-old baby in her hands. Inside the cabin, it's chaos. Sixteen-year-old Sarah lies on the cabin floor, a few feet inside the doorway, gasping for breath. Her father Randy and Kevin cry out in pain. Kevin is bleeding badly from a gunshot wound to the shoulder. Randy's injured too, cradling his limp and bloodied hand by his stomach. Then Sarah spots her mother.

• 12:50Lindsay Graham?

  Vicky Weaver is slumped over on her knees in the doorway, still holding baby Alicia Bay in her arms. But she isn't moving. In an instant, Sarah realizes her mother is dead. Her ten-year-old sister Rachel screams, then the baby, trapped in her dead mother's arms, begins to wail in fright. Sarah realizes she has to try and remain calm. Her mother is gone, the men are hurt, and the family is under attack. She tries to think what her mother would do in this situation, and the first thing Vicky would do is tell everyone to be quiet. The feds can use the family's cries against them, helping the snipers locate them for other shots that are sure to come. So Sarah yells out, telling them not to make a sound. But as the men go quiet, she realizes they have even bigger problems.

• 13:35Lindsay Graham?

  The door is still open, so she crawls over to her father and tells him they need to drag Vicky inside and get the door closed. Randy pulls Alicia back from Vicky's arms. Sarah can see that the little girl is covered in blood. Frantically, she and Randy check all over the baby's body, but they're relieved to see that she has not been hit. So they hand the baby off to Rachel and begin slowly dragging Vicky's lifeless body into the cabin. When her mother has finally cleared the door, Sarah slams it shut. Sarah then gathers the two younger children to her and pulls them flat on the floor. She shields them with her body and then covers her mouth to muffle the sound of her own crying. Sarah realizes that everything her mother prophesized is coming true.

• 14:19Lindsay Graham?

  The end times have come for the Weaver family. This is their own personal Armageddon. First Samuel, now Vicky. One by one, the feds are taking them out, and without her mother to guide and protect them, Sarah decides that she will have to be the one to hold the family together. So she begins to pray, asking for the strength needed in this moment.

• 14:42Lindsay Graham?

  Inside the base camp at the bottom of the hill, FBI hostage negotiator Fred Lansley is stunned by what's happened. He's only been on site for a few hours, but a sniper has already fired at the Weavers before he's even had a chance to begin negotiations. No one on the government's side seems to know who's been hit or what condition they're in. Lansley is certain of one thing, though. He needs to get up to the cabin before things spiral further out of control. So at around 6:00 PM, only minutes after the sniper fire began, Lansley piles into a tank-like armored personnel carrier along with hostage rescue team leader Richard Rogers and a handful of other agents. They begin driving up the hill.

• 15:23Lindsay Graham?

  It's a long, tense journey, with multiple stops to check for booby traps along the way. But after forty-five minutes, they finally reach their destination and stop about twenty feet in front of the cabin. Lansley turns to Rogers to discuss their next steps. Okay, here's what we gotta do. I've got a phone here for Randy to talk to us. I'd like to get that to him as soon as possible, establish a line of communication. Now first, we need to announce ourselves and make the surrender order. That should have been done before the first shot, but we're past that now. Still, let's move forward by the book. All right, copy that. Lansley pulls the radio handset off the wall of the personnel carrier. The handset is wired into a bullhorn on top of the vehicle. Mr. Weaver, this is Fred Lansley of the FBI.

• 16:06Lindsay Graham?

  You should understand that we have warrants for the arrest of yourself and Mr. Harris. This is an order to surrender. Lansley waits a long beat for a response, but he's met only with silence from the cabin, so he continues on. Randy, we don't want anyone else to get hurt. I just want to talk to you about how we can get you and your family out of the cabin peacefully. Lansley waits and listens, but again, there's no sound from the cabin. He turns back to Rogers. Maybe he's responding, but we can't hear him through the walls. I think getting that phone inside is our best shot. Okay, well, let's do it quick. The sun's gonna be down in less than an hour. I'm worried they're just stalling so they can ambush us in the dark. Lansley nods and pulls the phone out from beneath his seat.

• 16:48Lindsay Graham?

  Then he carefully opens the hatch of the roof of the vehicle, slides the phone outside, and lowers it softly to the ground by its wire. The wire is more than a mile long, long enough to reach all the way back to base camp. Lansley then closes the hatch and gets back on the bullhorn. Randy, I've left a phone just outside. Please come out unarmed and bring it in so we can talk. I give you my word, no one will harm you. Lansley feels Rogers tap him on the shoulder. Hey, site profile says Vicky is the one calling the shots in there. Maybe try her. Okay, good call. Vicky, we know you're in there too. Please, pick up the phone. I'm on the other end. I just want to help you and your children get out of this safely. You or one of the kids can come out and take it.

• 17:33Lindsay Graham?

  No one will be harmed. I'd really like to talk to you. Vicky, are you there?

• 17:40Lindsay Graham?

  After several minutes with no answer, the decision is made to head back down the mountain. The armored vehicle begins slowly backing down the hill, unspooling the phone wire behind it. Lansley hopes they use it. Because as he rides along, he thinks about what Roger said. Maybe the government has approached this case all along from the start. They spent all this time trying to reason with Randy, when maybe really it's Vicky calling the shots. Lansley makes a mental note. When he resumes negotiations tomorrow, he's gonna focus more on her. Because if he can get Vicky talking, perhaps everything will be okay.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Hi, I'm Kenia Perez.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Rich Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?

• 18:49Speaker 02

  I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived there after him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the Things that come back to haunt us.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 20:17Lindsay Graham?

  By the afternoon of August 23rd, 1992, almost 24 hours have passed since the FBI hostage negotiator Fred Lansley left a phone outside the Weaver's cabin. The FBI has rung the phone every 15 minutes, but no one has yet come out to retrieve it. So without any communication from the Weavers, the government agents don't know who has been shot. They're unaware that Vicky Weaver and her teenage son Samuel are dead, and they don't know that Kevin Harris is gravely wounded. Desperate to gather any information, the FBI sends a modified bomb disposal robot rolling up the hill. It's loaded with surveillance and communication devices, including a camera, microphone, and speaker. And when the robot arrives outside the cabin, Lansley uses its loudspeaker to address both Randy and Vicky,

• 21:02Lindsay Graham?

  but he again gets no response. The FBI still hopes to negotiate an end to the standoff, but with every hour that passes, a peaceful resolution seems less likely. Now the time is approaching when agents must begin preparing to storm the cabin. Any such operation would be conducted by the elite hostage rescue team. And ahead of a possible assault on the Weaver compound, the HRT leader, Richard Rogers, decides to remove some of the smaller structures on the ridge. He hopes to create better lines of sight for his snipers and ensure that the assault team can move freely in the area surrounding the cabin. So just after sunset, Rogers sends another armored personnel carrier up the hill to begin pushing the structures out of the way. But when the vehicle reaches the largest shed,

• 21:46Lindsay Graham?

  he instructs them to pause. It occurs to Rogers that the structure might be booby-trapped, or there may be someone hiding inside, waiting to ambush them. So he instructs a pair of assault team agents to head in and take a look first.

• 22:02Lindsay Graham?

  The agents crawl along the dark forest floor, dressed head to toe in camouflage, with automatic rifles strapped to their backs. When they reach the clearing surrounding the Weaver cabin, the lead agent pauses to look through his night vision goggles. Alright, it looks clear, let's move. Getting to their feet, they draw their weapons and sprint for the shed. The lead agent flattens himself against the rough wood siding. He scans the cabin, but sees no movement. Alright, on my count of three, we'll converge on the entrance. I'll take the door, you breach. Alrighty. Okay. Three, two, one, go! The lead agent reaches the door and swings it open. And as his partner moves inside with his rifle raised, the lead agent puts a hand on his shoulder and follows closely behind.

• 22:45Lindsay Graham?

  Inside the doorway, he clicks on a flashlight, mounted to the top of his gun. He scans the room, and there's not much inside. A bed covered in a white sheet, a cheap nightstand with a potted plant, a pile of clothes tossed in the corner. Okay, looks empty to me. Uh, what's that over there? The agent flicks his flashlight across the bed. There's a lump under the sheet. Alright, I'm gonna pull off that sheet. Cover me. Nice and slow, nice and slow, could be wired. The lead agent trains his gun on the bed, while he watches his partner pull away the sheet. Ah, Jesus. The body of Samuel Weaver lies naked on the bed. Is that one of the kids? Yeah. Must be the son. We gotta call this in, we can't leave him here. You think it was Horiochi that got him? Unlikely. He was clear he hit an adult.

• 23:29Lindsay Graham?

  Well, this kid didn't shoot himself in the back. Maybe it was one of the marshals. Didn't they say they shot someone? Yeah, maybe. Or maybe it wasn't one of us at all. What do you mean? I mean, you saw the psych profile? Parents like this? They think surrender means losing their kids? No way. No, no. You're saying they did this? I'm saying I don't know. But in a situation like this, people stop thinking straight. As the agent reports the discovery to base camp, he begins to think of the other children still inside the Weaver cabin. Sarah, Rachel, and the baby haven't been seen or heard from in two days. With Randy and Vicky still refusing to communicate with negotiators, there's no way to know if the kids are alive or dead. And the longer that remains the case, the more worried the FBI will become.

• 24:18Lindsay Graham?

  Shortly after discovering Samuel Weaver, the FBI agents carry his body out of the shed and bring it down the hill. The government determines that Samuel was killed during the initial gunfight between the Weavers and the Marshals. But without an autopsy or ballistics analysis, they can draw no firm conclusions about who fired the fatal shot. Shortly afterward, FBI negotiator Fred Lansley speaks to the family through the loudspeaker on the robot. Expressing his condolences, he asks the Weavers for guidance on what to do with the body in accordance with their religious beliefs. But once again, he gets no response. By the next morning, it's been three days since Samuel was killed and two days since Vicky was struck down by an FBI sniper. Inside the cabin, it's pure misery.

• 25:01Lindsay Graham?

  16-year-old Sarah is struggling to keep the family together and hold on to her own sanity. She sits on the couch, trying to nurse her crying baby sister from a bottle. It's been hard enough to settle Alicia but without her mother. But overnight, the FBI set up floodlights around the cabin, and the phone left out on the lawn has been ringing every 15 minutes for the past day and a half. No one has been able to get any sleep, feels like the family's being tortured. As Sarah looks around the room, she takes stock of what's happened. Her little brother's been killed by the feds, and now they've stolen his body. Meanwhile, her dead mother, Vicky, is underneath the kitchen table, covered by a blanket, her dried blood smeared all across the floor. Sarah looks to the other end of the couch.

• 25:44Lindsay Graham?

  Her father, Randy, was hit in the hand by a government sniper, but he's still strong enough to clean the barrel of the pistol. Sarah is more worried about Kevin Harris. He's slumped into a recliner in the corner of the room. His skin is growing gray, and he grips his bloodied shoulder. Moaning in pain, in a weak voice, he begs Randy to shoot him and put him out of his misery. But Randy refuses, saying he couldn't do a thing like that. But as Kevin's pain gets worse and worse, Sarah feels like she has to do something. So she hands the baby off to her younger sister Rachel and walks to the kitchen. Sarah grabs the family's rudimentary first aid kit off the counter and a shaker of cayenne pepper from the cupboard. She brings it over to Kevin's recliner and kneels beside him.

• 26:27Lindsay Graham?

  Slowly, she removes the bloody gauze from his shoulder. He gasps in pain as she peels it away. The bullet hole hasn't closed and more blood begins to trickle down his arm. She quickly dabs a cotton swab with peroxide and applies it to the wound, making Kevin shudder with pain once again. Then Sarah dashes a sprinkle of the cayenne pepper on top to help fight infection. It's an old trick she learned from her mother. But as Sarah tapes a fresh piece of gauze over the wound, she hears a loud, distorted voice outside. It's that robot again. The voice on its loudspeaker has been blaring at them for days, but now it's playing a new trick. It's talking to Vicky, telling her that the feds are having pancakes for breakfast at the bottom of the hill. The voice asks Vicky to let the kids come down and have some.

• 27:12Lindsay Graham?

  Hearing this, Randy loses his cool. He yells to Sarah that the feds know perfectly well that Vicky is dead. They're the ones who killed her. So he gets up off the couch and storms to the front of the room. Through the closed front door, he starts screaming at the robot, calling the feds cowards and demanding that they stop taunting his family. Sarah is terrified that her father might do something stupid, like open the door and go outside to shoot the robot. So she gently puts her hand on her father's back and tries to reason with him. She explains the feds probably don't know that Vicky is dead. They can't see inside the cabin or hear what he's screaming through the door. But Randy just keeps yelling and yelling. Sarah begs him to quiet down and move away from the door, explaining that they could use his voice to tell where he's standing and shoot him as well.

• 27:56Lindsay Graham?

  This seems to do the trick, because Randy stomps back to the couch, mumbling to himself about the feds' dirty tricks. Sarah takes back her baby sister from Rachel and rocks her in her arms. But Alicia won't stop crying. She's desperate for her mother, and that's the one thing Sarah can't do anything about. So Sarah is at her wits' end. She knows they can't go on like this much longer. If they stay inside the cabin, Kevin will likely die from his gunshot. It won't be long before they're out of formula for the baby. But Sarah can't see a way out. The last time they opened the front door, the government tried to shoot them all. So Sarah closes her eyes and does exactly what her mother would have done in this situation. She again prays to God for an answer.

• 28:42Speaker 05

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad-free on Audible.

• 29:12Lindsay Graham?

  In the summer of 1881, US Army Lieutenant Adolphus Greeley and 24 other men embarked on an ambitious scientific mission to the northernmost reaches of the Arctic. But despite several triumphs of discovery, the men would soon face tragedy. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American History Tellers. We take you to the events, times, and people that shaped America and Americans, our values, our struggles, and our dreams. In our latest series, after Adolphus Greeley and his men arrive at their destination more than 1,000 miles above the Arctic Circle, they get to work collecting scientific data and exploring the frigid landscape. But when resupply ships fail to reach them two summers in a row, they're forced to set

• 29:54Lindsay Graham?

  out on a desperate search for rescue, and not all of them will make it home. Follow American History Tellers wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American History Tellers' Greeley Arctic Expedition early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 30:24Lindsay Graham?

  On August 25th, 1992, the standoff at Ruby Ridge enters its fourth day. The crowd gathered at the roadblock on the bridge leading into the area has continued to swell. Well over a hundred people are there now, and it's a volatile mix. There are dozens of reporters and camera crews from around the country, but they've been joined by a growing number of far-right, anti-government extremists. And when the protesters learn that the Weaver's young son Samuel has been killed, the temperature is cranked up even more. The protesters scream "Baby Killer" at the agents standing guard and taunt them over the death of their fallen colleague, Marshal Billy Deegan. But it's not the offensive chants that concern federal agents the most. They're increasingly worried that the most radical protesters will try to smuggle weapons

• 31:09Lindsay Graham?

  and supplies up to the cabin and urge the Weavers to keep fighting. So they have men stationed in the woods and on the roads all around Ruby Ridge keeping watch. Lance Hart, an ATF agent, is among those assigned to patrol the protest area. He's well acquainted with the Weaver case. He was the man who cuffed Randy during his arrest on the side of the highway 18 months ago. And on the afternoon of the 25th, Hart is seated behind the wheel of his cruiser parked on a shoulder of the road, 100 feet from the roadblock. Through binoculars, he watches for any protesters who may try to break free from the barrier. And as he scans the crowd, the dispatcher's voice crackles over the police radio: "An FBI helicopter has spotted a vehicle of interest nearby."

• 31:52Lindsay Graham?

  It's a Jeep Cherokee belonging to a group of skinheads from Portland. They were seen yesterday buying guns at a local shop and asking about how to get up to the Weaver's cabin. Now that same Jeep is turning down a back road that leads to a canyon behind the ridge where the Weaver's compound sits. To Hart, this sounds like exactly the scenario they've all been dreading. These skinheads are likely going to ditch the Jeep and head across the canyon on foot, bringing guns up to Randy through a back entrance. So Hart puts his cruiser into gear and screeches into a U-turn, heading in the direction of the Jeep. He mashes the accelerator to the floor as he reaches to the dashboard and flicks on the lights and siren. When Hart is a mile down the road, the helicopter comes into view ahead.

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  Following the chopper's path, he pulls a sharp right turn down a dirt road through the forest. And a moment later, he hears half a dozen other law enforcement vehicles racing up behind him with their lights on and sirens blaring too. The Jeep comes into view ahead, and as Hart starts to catch up, he gets on the loudspeaker, demanding that the Jeep pull over. To Hart's surprise, they comply. When the Jeep comes to a stop, Hart pulls off the road and parks 50 feet behind. He grabs his rifle off the passenger seat, then slides out of the car and plants his knee in the dirt, shielding himself behind the open door. Seconds later, Hart's colleagues pull their vehicles beside his. Now he has backup, Hart yells to the skinheads to come out of the vehicle one at a time

• 33:20Lindsay Graham?

  with their hands in the air. For a moment, there's no movement from inside the Jeep, and Hart wonders what they're up to, steeling himself for a shootout. But then the driver's door opens, and a man slowly exits with his hands in the air. Hart screams for him to get down on the ground. Then, one after the other, four other men climb out of the car and lie down on their bellies next to the driver. With guns still drawn, Hart and his fellow agents walk slowly to the Jeep. When they reach the skinheads, Hart keeps his gun pointed at them while his colleagues begin to cuff them. As they make arrests, Hart pops open the Jeep's trunk. And inside, he finds two dozen rifles, along with several boxes of ammunition. Underneath the pile of guns, there's a large, rolled-up black banner.

• 34:05Lindsay Graham?

  Hart unravels it and finds it reads "Whites Must Arm." Hart shakes his head. This was a close call. But the situation is becoming more dangerous by the hour. Whether it's down at the protest by the bridge or up at the Weaver compound, it only seems a matter of time before there's more bloodshed.

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  Later that same day, August 25th, 1992, a colorful new character shows up at the roadblock. Bo Grietz is a retired Special Forces agent, who's said to have served as the inspiration for the Sylvester Stallone character Rambo. He's also a fringe candidate in the upcoming presidential election, and he's a hero of the American far-right. Grietz arrives in northern Idaho with a public offer to negotiate an end to the standoff. The FBI just rolled their eyes at this grandstanding stunt. But it's clear that Grietz is popular with the crowd at the roadblock, so to keep everyone happy, they allow Grietz to record an audio message encouraging Randy to surrender. But Grietz isn't the only outsider urging the Weavers to give themselves up.

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  As Ruby Ridge becomes a major national story, legendary radio broadcaster Paul Harvey learns that Randy Weaver is a devoted fan. So Harvey goes live on the air to speak directly to Weaver through the radio inside the cabin. Harvey expresses sympathy for Weaver's anti-government views, but encourages him to surrender. Weaver hears the broadcast, but is apparently unpersuaded, because he makes no attempt to pick up the phone and begin negotiations. And as the clock ticks on, FBI negotiator Fred Lansley knows an assault on the cabin is likely just around the corner. But then, the following day, on the afternoon of August 26th, there's a breakthrough. Weaver begins yelling from inside the cabin again.

• 35:52Lindsay Graham?

  This time, desperate to hear what Weaver is saying, Lansley guides the robot closer to the cabin, stopping it just a few feet away from the door. From this range, Lansley can finally make out a few words. Weaver is asking for his sister Marnus to be brought to the site. It's not clear why, but this is the first direct communication between the FBI and the Weavers. So hoping to build on this, the FBI scrambles to locate Marnus in Iowa and get her on a plane to Ruby Ridge.

• 36:24Lindsay Graham?

  The next morning, August 27th, Randy is with his family in the cabin when he hears the FBI's armored personnel carrier roll into the yard outside again. He's not surprised, because this has been a daily routine for nearly a week now. Through the walls of the cabin, he hears an FBI man called Fred speak up over the loudspeaker. But this time, Fred actually has something interesting to say.

• 36:46Speaker 06

  Randy, I heard your request yesterday. As a gesture of goodwill, I found your sister, Marnus, and I flew her here out last night. She's right here beside me, and she'd like to speak with you.

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  Randy stiffens and rushes to the door, shouting out: "Marnus? That really you? Say something!" A moment later, Marnus's muffled voice comes over the loudspeaker. Weaver kids are so excited, they start shouting for her too. Oh, quiet, hush, all of you, please. I can't hear her. Marnus, Vicky's dead. You hear me? They shot her. I've been yelling for days, but no one's listening. They're trying to pin it on me. Don't believe a word they say. Can you hear me? A few moments later, Fred's voice comes back on the loudspeaker.

• 37:27Speaker 06

  Randall, Marnus is a little hard to hear. So we're gonna bring the ABC in closer so she can hear you better.

• 37:33Lindsay Graham?

  Don't you dare. I'm not falling for that trick. You stay right where you are.

• 37:37Speaker 06

  Randy, you asked me to bring your sister here. She came all this way from Iowa. Just let her come a little closer so she can hear your voice.

• 37:45Lindsay Graham?

  I said, back off!

• 37:47Speaker 06

  All right, all right, we'll stay here, but, uh, let's try something else. I have some messages, recordings, I'd like to play for you. They're for Vicky's parents and her brother and sister. I've also got one here for Bo Grites. I don't know if you've heard of him.

• 38:02Lindsay Graham?

  Randy's eyes grow wide. Of course, he's heard of Grites. Randy even has a poster of him in the cabin. Bo... Bo knows who I am? Is he here?

• 38:11Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, yeah, he's here.

• 38:13Lindsay Graham?

  Then I'm done talking to you. You hear me? From now on, I only talk to Bo Grites.

• 38:20Lindsay Graham?

  This is the best news Randy Weaver has gotten in months. If there's one person he's sure he can trust to tell the truth and be an honest broker, it's Bo Grites. For the first time, Weaver feels a sliver of hope. Because maybe now there's a chance that he and his kids will make it out of this cabin alive.

• 38:41Lindsay Graham?

  From Wondery, this is episode three of The Standoff at Ruby Ridge from American Scandal. In our next episode, Bo Grites attempts to negotiate a peaceful end to the standoff before congressional hearings and criminal trials try to establish exactly what happened at Ruby Ridge and who was to blame.

• 39:05Lindsay Graham?

  American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts. And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com.

• 39:38Lindsay Graham?

  If you'd like to learn more about the events at Ruby Ridge, we recommend the books Every Knee Shall Bow by Jess Walter, Police State by Jerry Spence, and the PBS American Experience documentary, Ruby Ridge. This episode contains reenactments and dramatized details. And while in most cases we can't know exactly what was said, all our dramatizations are based on historical research. American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executed, produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Mohamed Shazib. Sound design by Gabriel Ghul. Supervising sound designer, Matthew Fuller. Music by Thrum. This episode is written and researched by Corey Metcalf. Fact checking by Alyssa Jung Perry. Managing producer Emily Burke. Development by Stephanie Jens. Senior producers are Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. Executive producers are

• 40:23Lindsay Graham?

  William Simpson for Airship, and Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery.

• 40:36Lindsay Graham?

  By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men, so he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress

• 41:20Lindsay Graham?

  to the enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible on the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.