Pod Insights American Scandal Georgia Tann Interview | Guest T.J. Raphael "Liberty Lost" Podcast Host | 5 About this episode Decades after Georgia Tann’s black market adoption ring was exposed, similar patterns of coercion and control are still unfolding across the U. S. At the Liberty Godparent Home in Lynchburg, Virginia, young pregnant women are isolated, shamed, and pressured into giving up their babies—often in exchange for promises like college scholarships. The home, founded by televangelist Jerry Falwell, reflects a troubling intersection of faith, politics, and profit. Journalist T. J. Raphael joins Lindsay to discuss the Godparent Home and her new podcast, Liberty Lost, which shares the stories of girls and young women who experienced it.
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0:11 Lindsay Graham? From Wondery, I'm Lindsay Graham, and this is American Scandal.
0:35 Lindsay Graham? By the time the full extent of Georgia Tan's illegal adoption network came to light in 1950, the story had already spanned decades and left behind a trail of broken families, unanswered questions, and lives permanently altered. While some of the children Tan stole went on to have happy lives with their new families, others suffered greatly. Some were forced to serve as laborers, some were starved and beaten, some were sexually abused even by Tan herself. And at least 19 babies died under Tan's supervision at her Poplar Avenue orphanage. And in the years after Tan's crimes were revealed, birth and adoption records remained largely sealed, so few of the parents and children she separated could reconnect.
1:16 Lindsay Graham? And Tan and many of her accomplices escaped without facing any significant consequences. Eventually, their crimes faded from memory. But this isn't a story that belongs solely to the past. Similar things are still happening to this day. In Lynchburg, Virginia, there is a maternity home with a thriving and coercive adoption arm. It's called the Liberty Godparent Home, and it was created by the televangelist preacher Jerry Falwell in 1982 as part of his mission to end abortion.
1:44 Speaker 01 To save, to help save one child from abortion cost us about $400. Does a little baby mean that much to you? Will you become a liberty godparent? Hundreds have joined, and every one of them, we've sent them this beautiful little bronze baby shoe that simply says, "You're one of our godparents. A liberty godparent."
2:04 Lindsay Graham? The Liberty Godparent Home takes in teenage girls and young women who are sat there to hide their pregnancies. But what they find when they arrive is an oppressive environment where they are forced to sign over their babies to affluent evangelical Christians. My guest today is TJ Raphael. She's a journalist and host of the podcast Liberty Lost, a show that tells the stories of girls and young women who survive the isolation and manipulation of the Godparent Home. Our conversation is next.
2:38 Speaker 02 A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.
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3:22 Lindsay Graham? TJ Raphael, welcome to American Scandal.
3:25 Speaker 05 Thanks for having me.
3:26 Lindsay Graham? So your new podcast is an investigation into the Liberty Godparent Home, a place for young, single, pregnant women, not so unlike the homes run by Georgia Tann decades earlier. How'd you first come across the Godparent Home? And what was it that made you feel that this was a story worth covering?
3:42 Speaker 05 So I've been a journalist covering reproductive health for years. And after Roe versus Wade was overturned in 2022, I was scared. And since I'm a journalist, the way that I deal with fear is I report on things. It helps me to understand them. And getting that insight, I think, is also helpful for other people out there who might feel afraid. And so I knew, following the end of Roe versus Wade, that we would be entering a different time period that actually Might look a lot like the past. And I think a lot of people, understandably, their minds immediately went to this idea that without Roe versus Wade,
4:24 Speaker 05 would be going back to this time of dangerous back alley abortions. And that's definitely part of the concern that people will take matters into their own hands in a way that is unsafe. But that was only one part of the equation in the pre-Roe era. The pre-Roe era was also one of forced birth and coerced adoption. And so as a journalist, when I started to think about, how can I cover this? That's where my mind went. I felt like it was something that was being overlooked. And so I put out a call to people to say, if you had gone through a maternity home, if you experienced coerced adoption, please reach out to me.
5:07 Speaker 05 I expected to hear from women in their 60s and 70s, and I got a lot of emails from them. But I also got an email from Abby Johnson. She was 31 when she reached out to me. She was just a few years younger than me. And she told me that she went to a maternity home in 2008. Abby's story wasn't pre-Roe. It was modern. And when I found out she was sent to a maternity home on the campus of Liberty University, one of America's most powerful evangelical institutions, I was pretty bold over. And I knew I had a story there.
5:47 Lindsay Graham? How aware were you of Georgia Tan's influence on adoption in America while you started researching your story?
5:54 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the name Georgia Tan actually first came up to me from Abby Johnson. She has become somewhat of an adoption activist. And as we started working together on this series, Abby, actually my source, was the one who mentioned Georgia Tan. But I know that a lot of the same language that Tan used was being employed by the folks at Liberty Godparent Home. Tan argued that babies would only thrive in two-parent households that Adoption could benefit society, that placing kids for adoption would reduce the burden on American taxpayers. And the Godparent Home staff really reinforced a lot of those
6:35 Speaker 05 similar ideas. The girls in the Godparent Home were told if they really loved their babies, they'd place them for adoption, that they needed someone better than themselves to care for their children, and that it wasn't right that they were going to be a single mom, and it wasn't right if they ended up needing government assistance. So as I listened to your series on Georgia TAN, alarm bells were going off. I was like, wow, I've heard a lot of similar things.
7:03 Lindsay Graham? We mentioned in our intro that the Godparent Home was started by Jerry Falwell in 1982. Tell us more about him and why he created the home.
7:11 Speaker 05 He was a controversial evangelical preacher who became a powerhouse in American politics. Falwell and his school, Liberty University, have ties to nearly every Republican presidential candidate since Ronald Reagan. And Falwell started the Liberty Godparent Home with the explicit goal of providing an alternative to abortion. Falwell's idea was he could set up a maternity home where unwed pregnant girls and young women would go to receive religious counseling, get healthcare services, and this home of his on the campus of Liberty University would be physically connected to a faith-based adoption agency
7:54 Speaker 05 that would also be run by the same people behind Liberty University. And so by offering these services, in Falwell's mind, he thought that he could show Congress and the US Supreme Court that there was no need for a constitutional right to abortion. Falwell never lived to see that dream become a reality, but from the pulpit, he often called on judges to basically take up the mantle here. And he pointed to his Liberty Godparent Home as the solution that everyone was waiting for.
8:23 Lindsay Graham? You mentioned that in your research, you found a lot of similarities in the rhetoric used between Georgia TAN and the Godparent Home in terms of how they may convince young pregnant women to enter the home and use their services. Were there any other similarities? Because Georgia TAN was known for stealing children from parents, falsifying birth records, charging fees for adopted parents. What about Falwell and the Godparent Home?
8:49 Speaker 05 So the adoption agency attached to the Liberty Godparent Home does charge fees, adoption fees, in order to be able to get a child. They begin at around $30,000 to $40,000. And the girls were also incentivized to place their children for adoption, being told that if they "completed" the program of the Godparent Home, which often included adoption, they would be rewarded with a full ride to Liberty University, a scholarship that was worth $100,000. We have instances where some women were able to keep their children and receive the scholarship, but they had to jump through pretty extreme hoops
9:31 Speaker 05 to do that. On the whole, it seems that if they didn't place their children, they would not get these scholarships. And in the United States, offering cash in exchange for a baby is illegal, but it seems like scholarships are a different story, even scholarships worth $100,000. But in terms of other course of tactics, the Godparent Home puts girls in counseling sessions where they're often told they're not good enough to raise their children. The Liberty Godparent Home does have an explicit faith-based message. So a lot of the girls that we spoke to, now women, reported that they were being told that because they had premarital sex, the only way to get back onto God's path was
10:16 Speaker 05 to place their children for adoption with a devout Christian couple. The baby was thought of as pure and sinless, and married couples were thought of as pure and sinless. So it made sense that they be paired up because if the baby were to stay with the sinful mother, that would equate, in a Christian's mind, to celebrating sinful behaviors. When you're 16, being told that you might go to hell for upsetting God, it's a pretty strong message to get.
10:45 Lindsay Graham? You've mentioned the Holmes explicit faith-based message and Falwell's attempt to interject faith into politics. He became well-known for his Moral Majority movement. What was that and how did it impact his influence nationwide?
11:00 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the Moral Majority was started by Jerry Falwell in 1979. And it was a movement to really mobilize evangelical Christians as one cohesive voting bloc. You know, before this time period, evangelicals didn't really vote as a bloc. But Falwell saw that if he could bring them together, this group of people could have huge amounts of influence in Washington DC and beyond. And the Moral Majority is actually credited with helping to bring Ronald Reagan to the White House. And throughout the 1980s and honestly into the present, even though it's no longer called the Moral Majority, evangelical Christians have largely remained this conservative voting bloc.
11:44 Speaker 05 And that's really tied back to Falwell. He was very, very savvy and saw what this group of people could be and could do in terms of passing legislation and putting forward, quote unquote, "traditional family values." And that was a big part of his mission and something he would repeat constantly in his television show, The Old Time Gospel Hour, which at one point reached about 50 million people.
12:09 Lindsay Graham? 50 million people is a massive audience. And then, of course, Falwell has even more influence on the political sphere. How did he promote the Godparent Home and what impact did that have?
12:20 Speaker 05 Falwell would produce hour-long specials on the Liberty Godparent Home. And during these specials, he was constantly trying to raise money. He would be calling on his viewers to write a check for $400. He even says, you know, "You might not have the money. Maybe you'll have to go into savings." And would encourage them to do that in order to become godparents. And he would say, you know, "You'll be a godparent of a little baby you might never meet, but one day you'll see in heaven and they will thank you." Even on Falwell's broadcasts that weren't specifically about the Liberty Godparent. Parent home, special advertisements would cut in for the show directing viewers to open their wallets.
13:01 Speaker 05 And it really seemed to be kind of playing on some of the fears of his audience. He would say things like, God is upset at you for not standing up for the life of the unborn. Well, guess what? I have an exciting new way that you can do that. At one point, they even offered a Liberty Godparent Home Visa card. So that every time you use this Liberty Godparent Home branded Visa, allegedly it would benefit the Godparent Home and you could show everybody every time you opened your wallet that you were a supporter. But it was really confusing to me like where the money was going. Because the Godparent Home doesn't pay for any of the girls' medical services. They actually were signing up residents like Abby to Medicaid.
13:46 Speaker 05 So the taxpayers were footing the bill. A lot of these checks, I mean, he even says this in his advertisements. They're made out to him or his ministry. So it's unclear, you know, how that money eventually makes its way to Liberty Godparent Home.
14:04 Lindsay Graham? On its most basic surface level, the Godparent Home is probably well intentioned. But you spoke to one investigator who calls what the Godparent Home is doing a clearly unethical. And he's a Liberty University graduate himself and was initially supportive of the program. What changed his mind? Who is this person? And why does he now feel like the home itself is unethical?
14:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, his name is Evan Cater. Evan was in the US military, he was in the air force. And he was, while he was at active duty, he was getting his degree online through Liberty University. And eventually he decides to get his master's degree through Liberty University as well. And he has to take some classes on campus and he likes the vibe of Lynchburg a lot. He moves his entire family, his wife and three kids to town. He thinks it's a great Christian town as he's wrapping up his master's degree. And he lands a job at Child Protective Services in Lynchburg. And while he's on the job, Evan comes into contact with a Pregnant teenager that he has to place in the foster care system.
15:09 Speaker 05 So he goes to his supervisor and says, oh, we've got this pregnant teen. Where should I send her? And his supervisor looks at Evan and says, we're not sending her to the Godparent home. She says, they sell babies. And Evan is really taken aback. He's like, is this just a person that has a negative opinion about the Godparent home? Is this a legitimate thing? He's not really sure, but at the time, he doesn't push his supervisor for more intel. And he arranges for this girl to be placed in a foster home and moves on with his day. But a few months later, he gets a call to deal with another pregnant teen. And this girl was picked up by the police from the Liberty Godparent home. And Evan talks to this girl and asks her what happened.
15:52 Speaker 05 And this pregnant teenager says that, you know, her mom dropped her off at the Godparent home and they kept asking her, would she place her baby for adoption? She kept saying, no, like, I want to keep my baby. And once she finally said no, they kicked her out onto the street. And, you know, this is a pregnant teenage girl. She has nowhere to live. She has no job. And, you know, this interaction Evan told me, it made him change his opinion about the Godparent home. And he actually said that it influenced his faith in God as well, because it was so counterintuitive to the image the Godparent home was presenting, which, as, you know, I mentioned, he really believed in at one time.
16:40 Speaker 06 I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari early and ad free on Audible.
17:10 Lindsay Graham? By 1779, Benedict Arnold had sacrificed more for the revolution than almost any other man in America. One of George Washington's most effective commanders, he had nearly lost a leg in the Second Battle of Saratoga. But in return, Arnold believed he had been humiliated by Congress and cheated of his glory by lesser men. So he decided to make them pay. Hi, I'm Lindsay Graham, the host of the podcast American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history: presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Benedict Arnold turns his back on his comrades in the Continental Army and secretly defects to the British. With the help of his wife, he plots to hand over the most important colonial fortress to the
17:54 Lindsay Graham? enemy and doom the revolution he once served. Follow American Scandal wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
18:19 Lindsay Graham? Your podcast Liberty Lost primarily follows the story of Abby Johnson. You mentioned her earlier. She was just 16 years old when she became pregnant. Tell us about Abby and how she grew up.
18:30 Speaker 05 Yeah, so Abby grew up on the outskirts of Charlotte, North Carolina. She was raised in an evangelical family that went to a huge megachurch. Her parents taught her that they were her God-ordained authority. She was homeschooled. She was very sheltered. Her parents were very strict, very conservative. I mean, she wasn't even allowed to watch Rugrats or Full House as a kid because her parents thought it was too provocative. She is given messages about her purity. Her dad asks her to take a purity pledge to him. So she is given a purity ring and basically promises her father that she'll remain a virgin until she gets married. Her two older sisters, at the age of 13 as well, also
19:12 Speaker 05 did this ritual. And in church, Abby constantly gets messages from her youth pastor about
19:19 Speaker 05 Her purity, you know, she's told she should be dressing conservatively. She needs to make sure that the way she acts, the way she speaks doesn't tempt the boys around her because they are very visual creatures and it is her responsibility to protect boys from herself. And, you know, for a while Abby is really fine with the messages that she's getting, but she's also a teenage girl. She meets a boy when she's 14 years old, Nathan Johnson. She really connects with him and by the time Abby's 15, they start to take a romantic interest in each other. And everything is really innocent for a while, but eventually their feelings grow stronger for each other. And they fall in love and they lose their virginities to each other.
20:04 Speaker 05 And eventually Abby gets pregnant.
20:07 Lindsay Graham? So I can imagine, but why don't you tell me how Abby's parents reacted when they found out about this pregnancy?
20:14 Speaker 05 Yeah, so Abby's mom and dad are furious. You know, her father tells her that he's never been so ashamed of anyone in his life. And her mother is horrified of the idea that the boys in her community will have to watch her sin growing inside her belly and developing before their eyes. Her parents wind up having long conversations behind closed doors. And eventually her father comes downstairs and tells Abby that he is her God ordained authority. And the baby belongs to him, not to her. And that he's made the decision that she must place the baby for adoption.
20:57 Speaker 05 It's on the cusp of her 17th birthday. She doesn't know what to do, you know, she begs to try to stay at home, but she felt that the only way to really gain her parents' love back was to do what they say.
21:11 Lindsay Graham? So she enters the godparent home. Is Abby imagining she will keep her baby? Or is adoption the goal from the beginning?
21:19 Speaker 05 So the adoption is Abby's parents' goal from the very beginning. But Abby, as her body starts to change, as she becomes more and more attached to her pregnancy, to her son, she starts looking for a way to try to keep her child. You know, she feels the baby kick, she talks to him, and she doesn't want to lose her son. You know, she wasn't sure how to make things work, but she definitely was fighting for information that might help her to become a parent. And, you know, the Godparent Home, I was able to get my hands on a few copies of their official handbook. It says that they are supposed to offer decision-making classes to each resident,
22:02 Speaker 05 both a parenting decision-making classes and an adoption class. But according to former staffers that I spoke with and multiple former residents, those parenting classes, they never materialized.
22:15 Lindsay Graham? So Abby arrives then at the Godparent Home in January 2008. And what was her first impression?
22:22 Speaker 05 When Abby arrives at the Godparent Home, this place does not feel homey or inviting. The living room is dark, looks like dust has been collected on the TV. It looks like it hasn't been turned on in a long time. Every room that Abby enters, she's given a long list of rules and told, you know, where she can and can't go. She's told that the doors and windows are locked around the clock, that if she tries to open them without permission, an alarm will go off. She's made to go to school in a one-room school within the Godparent Home that has no windows. And she's made to do mandatory religious devotions every single day.
23:02 Speaker 05 She's also not allowed to have any media, so she has some CDs, like Jack Johnson CD, John Mayer and the Killers, and she gets CDs confiscated because they're not Christian in nature. And she's really being watched around the clock. She's also told that she's not allowed to have any visitors for the first month of her stay, including her own parents. And she's not allowed to have unmonitored phone calls. So every time she makes a call, a chaperone is right there. She's not allowed access to a cellphone. She's not allowed to have access to the internet. And she describes what feels like a prison-like environment, where the only thing that she hears day after day is the teachings that the Godparent Home wants her to hear.
23:47 Lindsay Graham? And that presumably is the coercive pressure to give up her baby. How does Abby react to this pressure?
23:54 Speaker 05 She feels completely alone. She desperately is trying to figure out a way to keep her son. She goes to her Godparent Home Assigned Counselor for help, who this person's job is supposed to be to help her figure out what's coming next. But every time she goes there, Abby says that the counselor acts like she knows nothing. She goes to Jerry Falwell's church. By the time Abby was a resident there, Falwell had died the previous year, but his legacy lived on at Thomas Road Baptist Church. And inside the church, she's asked, along with the other pregnant girls, to stand. And then the speaker at the pulpit asks for donations.
24:38 Speaker 05 And Abby feels like the people in the audience, it seems like at least a few of them want her baby. There's also speakers that are brought to the Godparent Home. And, you know, she's told she can heal the wound of premarital sex by giving her baby up for adoption. And so everywhere she looks, Abby's not getting any help from anyone inside or outside the Godparent Home.
25:01 Lindsay Graham? So it sounds like the shame of being pregnant is probably one of the primary pressure points that the Godparent Home is using to get these young women to give up their babies. Talk about that a little more, if you can.
25:15 Speaker 05 I actually talked with a former Godparent Home staffer who told me guilt and shame were definitely tools of the trade. The Godparent Home, for the most part, knew that these girls were from evangelical backgrounds, where they had done things like purity pledges, where they were taught pretty constantly throughout their upbringing that premarital sex was the carnal sin, the worst thing that you could do. And they had all done it. You know, Abby told me that she felt the staff was always looking at her, like she needed to redeem her body that had been violated by the things that she had done. She even told me that one staffer told her... Oh, you're gonna have stretch marks.
25:59 Speaker 05 It's gonna look like a roadmap all over your stomach. Every time she would go to church, until she got big enough where she couldn't hide it, she tried to hide her body under baggy clothes because just even walking in the parking lot, she could feel people looking at her. And so it was really a two-pronged strategy to play on these girls' shame about their pregnancies, about the sins that they had committed, and then offer them a way back by placing their children for adoption with devout Christian couples because they were not good enough to be their own child's mother.
26:34 Lindsay Graham? So the shame was not just that they got pregnant, but that they might keep their babies because the Godparent Home, as Georgia Tann did, I guess, saw poor or young, single mothers as unfit parents?
26:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, absolutely. You know, one woman that we spoke with in the show, she was told that she was not equipped enough to care for her child. She was not good enough because of the things that she had done, meaning premarital sex, and that in order to get back onto God's path, placing her baby for adoption would be the solution. And the couples that worked with the Godparent Home were actually evaluated based on how religious they were. And this was, you know, part of Falwell's plan to make sure that the babies would go to, quote unquote, "the right kinds of homes." And so they were asked questions like, "Describe your salvation experience. How do you intend to plan for your child's Christian development?"
27:31 Speaker 05 And they had to go through an evaluation to make sure that they were the right kinds of parents. And from the pulpit, Falwell also said several times, and we play some of this audio in our show, that adoptive parents had to be Christians committed to raising the child up in the favor of the Lord.
27:49 Lindsay Graham? So this gives us some insight into Abby's experience inside the Godparent Home. But what about the father, Nathan? What is his experience?
27:58 Speaker 05 So Abby's parents lied to him for five months while Abby was at the Godparent Home. They led Nathan to believe that Abby was just at home in Charlotte and just didn't want to speak with him. Nathan also is from an evangelical household and he decided to do a 43-day fast to show God and everyone else that he was worthy of Abby's love. He wanted to marry her. He wanted to step up and be a father to her child. But Abby's parents are dead set on making sure the adoption goes forward, so they don't tell Nathan that she's at the Godparent Home. He only finds out when his phone rings one
28:41 Speaker 05 day, and it's a woman from the Godparent Home who says she needs Nathan to sign something for Abby. And he's like, what? Like, what are you talking about? Where is she? And she reveals that Abby's at the Godparent Home. Nathan immediately hops in his car, races up there, demands to see Abby, but they won't allow that to happen. So Nathan goes and stands on the roof of his car, kind of like John Cusack, just without the boombox. And he looks up at the home and hopes to see Abby through a window because he believes that if she can see him, it could change everything. Unfortunately for Nathan, he doesn't get to see her, and her parents threaten him with statutory rape charges. Nathan actually
29:26 Speaker 05 hadn't broken the law. The legal age of consent in North Carolina was and is 16. But with that charge hanging over his head, he's terrified. And the folks at the Godparent Home tried to convince him that the best thing would be to place the child for adoption. They tell him, if you do this, you'll probably wind up becoming a drug addict. And he buckles under the pressure, and he also signs his rights away. But he was telling the Godparent Home, I want to marry Abby. I will do anything. I will, whether she's with me or not, I'm here. I want to support her. But those messages never get to Abby.
30:01 Lindsay Graham? So I don't want to reveal Abby and Nathan's entire story. Our listeners can check out your podcast for that. But what can you tell us about Abby's time at the Godparent Home and the ultimate impact on her?
30:12 Speaker 05 In some ways, Abby's never left the godparent home. Her time there has come to haunt the rest of her life, and she is still shaken by it. I mean, you can hear the real pain in her voice when she talks about her time there. And it's come to color a lot of the ways that she sees life. And she's really thrown herself into activism to try to reform the adoption industry because of what she was subjected to in the godparent home.
30:56 Speaker 05 Hey, I'm Cassie DePecce, the host of Against the Odds from Audible Originals. In each episode, we share thrilling true stories of survival, putting you in the shoes of the people who lived to tell the tale. In our latest series, we track the story of Hugh Glass, the real-life revenant that inspired the 2015 film starring Leonardo DiCaprio. In 1823, Glass was brutally mauled by a grizzly bear in present-day South Dakota and left for dead. His survival depended on trekking through 350 miles of wilderness alone with grave injuries. But he was driven by his thirst for revenge. Follow Against the Odds wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Against the Odds early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
31:40 Speaker 05 For decades, two legendary brands fought for the hearts of American bikers: Indian Motorcycle and Harley-Davidson. The battle looked a lot like Coke versus Pepsi or Ford versus Chevy. But tastes changed, and Indian didn't adapt fast enough. The icon all but died. Then came the Con Men, the Dreamers, a string of spectacular failures that kept Indian in the grave, until one company finally got it right. This is the story of an improbable revival and the reignition of an old rivalry. Hey, I'm David Brown, the host of the podcast Business Wars. And every season, we bring you the true stories behind the companies that shape our world. Indian's new owners are going all in, but an existential crisis looms. Can Indian and Harley recruit enough younger riders to survive?
32:24 Speaker 05 Make sure to follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Business Wars early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.
32:44 Lindsay Graham? In your podcast, you go to great lengths to show how powerless birth parents like Abby are in the adoption process. It is a much different experience for the adoptive parents. Could you describe how the laws around adoption might impact these parents on either side? And how they've changed over time?
33:01 Speaker 05 So when it comes to a birth parent in the United States, there's been a real push towards open adoption. And open adoption allows the birth parents to see the child that they place as that child grows up. But in many places, these open adoption agreements are not legally binding. They can be closed for any reason at any time by the adoptive parents. And so what I've heard in my reporting is it creates a really strange power imbalance. It's sort of like a custody battle that never ends. And it leaves a lot of birth mothers feeling powerless in this situation where they're afraid to, you know, say or do the
33:43 Speaker 05 wrong thing for fear out of upsetting the adoptive parents and having that adoption close. In addition to that, lawyers that work for adoption agencies have lobbied state houses around the country to shorten the revocation window. So in most states, there's a period of time written into the law where a birth mother or birth father can change their mind about the adoption and can take back their parental rights. And, you know, in some places like Florida and Texas, those revocations have been shortened now to just 48 hours. In Utah, it's 24 hours for you to be able to legally change your mind. And
34:26 Speaker 05 according to activists that we have spoken with, this is by design. The adoption industry in the United States remains a for-profit industry, and those who work on behalf of agencies want to protect their business. And so that means they want that revocation window as short as possible. For Abby and Nathan, the revocation window was 10 days, and that had actually just been changed to 10 days. In the state of Virginia, it used to be 25. So The laws in the United States, for the most part, tend to favor adoptive parents. People that have power and money to be able to adopt a child also have the power and money to hire attorneys to do work on their behalf.
35:08 Speaker 05 So in general, from what I've heard and from what research shows, it's an uneven power dynamic even after the placement is complete.
35:16 Lindsay Graham? Given that there seems to be a trend towards this closing of the revocation window, the kind of, I suppose, tenuous status of open adoptions, all this legacy of a more closed adoption society that we inherit from Georgia TAN, what do birth mothers, relinquishing mothers, say after they've decided or were forced to decide to give up their children?
35:40 Speaker 05 I will give you an example of a woman that we spoke to in our series named Sarah Payne. Sarah came to the Godparent Home gung ho on pursuing an adoption, and it's something she ultimately saw through. But 16 years later, even though Sarah has an open adoption, she has a good relationship with her son's adoptive parents. She feels pain about it because it's hard. And I think for birth mothers, no matter what, whether or not you actively choose to do an adoption or it's something that you were pressured or forced into, the pain of gestating a baby, giving birth to that child, meeting that child, and then saying goodbye to them stays with you forever.
36:24 Speaker 05 And so that's something that I feel like I've heard from birth mothers, no matter their generation, no matter their circumstances, that once you give birth to a child that's out in the world, you'll think about them, you'll dream about them. One study I read found that more than 70% of mothers who place their infants for adoption say they wish they knew more about their legal rights and about their options. A lot of women feel like they didn't have a really good sense of what their choices were. And if somebody would have just said, whoa, whoa, let's pump the brakes here, you know, what is preventing you from? Taking care of your baby. Research shows that nine in 10 times
37:09 Speaker 05 the reason a woman relinquishes an infant for adoption is due to financial stress. And that sometimes if they had just one or $2,000 more in the bank, they would have made a different decision. And now, you know, understandably, $1,000 or $2,000 is not enough to raise a baby until they're 18. But it's enough sometimes to get somebody through a temporary crisis. But adoption agencies are not set up to give this information out to prospective mothers. They're set up to help them make the choice of placing for adoption. And so the services that we need to see in place are institutional organizations that can help inform
37:54 Speaker 05 women who are in crisis, whether they are pregnant or, you know, recently postpartum, to understand what services are available that can help them not have to make a permanent decision due to a temporary crisis.
38:10 Lindsay Graham? Now, recently, Falwell's Liberty University has attracted negative attention. In 2024, the Department of Education fined them $14 million, the largest fine of its kind. Tell us about what this fine was over and what kind of impact it might have had on the godparent home.
38:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the Department of Education found that Liberty University was violating this federal student safety law called the Cleary Act. The Cleary Act requires colleges and universities to support victims of on-campus crime, including sexual assault, among other things. The Department of Education found that Liberty University had a policy of forcing pregnant students to go to the godparent home or face expulsion. I was actually absolutely shocked when I heard this. I had so many questions. Who were these women and what happened to them and their children? And so I reached out to the Department of Education for answers.
39:11 Speaker 05 I asked them how many students were made to live there and what happened to them. But the Department of Education, shockingly, told me they didn't know how many students were forced to live there because they didn't need that information to support their findings. And so unfortunately, to this day, I've not gotten any clarity on how many students were required to go there. But I do know that a woman named Sarah Mays, in the early 2000s, unfortunately, she was sexually assaulted while she was a student at Liberty University, and she became pregnant as a result of that assault. And when she went to the dean, they
39:52 Speaker 05 told her that she either had to go to the godparent home and place the child for adoption or be expelled. And they did offer her a scholarship at that time. Mays has been embroiled in a years-long lawsuit with the university. She initially was a Jane Doe in a multi-student lawsuit against the school, but she's since identified herself and spoken out. But, you know, I also spoke with a woman who in 2010 got pregnant as a student and received a warning that if she told the school about her pregnancy, she would be forced to go to the godparent home. She was able to hide her pregnancy for months and eventually went home and finished out her degree online, but she very well could have ended up like one of the women in the Department of Education's report.
40:38 Lindsay Graham? So this policy of forcing Liberty students to go to the godparent home if they become pregnant, it could lead to a very cynical view of the entire apparatus, that the godparent home is a for-profit institution that tries to coerce as many young women as possible to make the decision to put their children up for adoption for the benefit of the home and the greater Liberty infrastructure. How cynical should we be about this situation? What is your opinion?
41:10 Speaker 05 My opinion of the Godparent Home is complicated. In theory, on paper, I think that offering pregnant young women shelter, a place to get medical care, a safe haven during a time that they are the most vulnerable, is a great thing. I think we need more places where low-income pregnant women who are in crisis, whether that's because they have no support around them, whether that's because they're in a domestic violence situation, whatever it might be, that they can have a place where they can reach for help. But I think inherently, there is a problem with having a maternity home that is physically
41:53 Speaker 05 attached to an adoption agency. One of the former staffers that I spoke to was very clear that the adoption agency was supported by the babies that were being brought into the home. And so I think that there is an inherent conflict of interest with what the maternity home is and what the adoption agency is, given that they work together, they're under the same umbrella organization, which is the Liberty Godparent Foundation, they're both subentities of that. But I think, at least from my reporting and the way it seems to be operating, I don't think it's a safe place for women to go to get help, unfortunately.
42:32 Lindsay Graham? Over the course of your reporting, have you been able to get a response from Liberty University about these criticisms?
42:38 Speaker 05 I've reached out to Liberty University, I've reached out directly to Liberty Godparent Home, I've reached out directly to the current head of Family Life Services Adoption Agency. And unfortunately, to date, even though I've sent so many emails, I've called, I've texted, I've tried to add them on LinkedIn and Facebook, I've never gotten any response back to date.
43:01 Lindsay Graham? So finally, in 2022, the Supreme Court reversed the federal right to abortion. What impact has this decision had on the Godparent Home and its mission?
43:10 Speaker 05 Yeah, so in 2022, after the Supreme Court handed down that ruling, the current head of Liberty University, Jonathan Falwell, he is one of the sons of Jerry Falwell, announced that the Godparent Home planned to expand. I was able to find online images of them in 2023, so a year later, of getting furniture donations, including beds. And they're also offering programs to get vulnerable women to walk through the door. They're offering nutrition classes and financial planning classes, but they're only for single pregnant women. And also, I know that this organization called Heartbeat International, they're the world's
43:55 Speaker 05 largest anti-abortion group. They have a presence on every inhabited continent. They have something called the National Maternity Housing Coalition, and that basically lays out a nationwide strategy for maternity homes. And the former director of the Godparent Home, for years, actually sat on the Leadership Council of the National Maternity Housing Coalition. And so, according to my reporting, there is a nationwide plan in place to expand maternity homes around the country. Many of them have links to the larger anti-abortion movement and are having to disciple the Christian faith and promote adoption.
44:37 Speaker 05 There are currently nearly 500 maternity homes around the country, and there have been several calls for both Congress and state legislatures across the country to include funding to start new maternity homes, just like the Liberty Godparent Home. Again, like, you know, I think that offering pregnant women the ability to get safe harbor is great, but given that so many of these places do have the explicit purpose of trying to push people towards adoption because of certain values about, you know, two-parent households, about single mothers, I'm skeptical of what might happen next.
45:14 Lindsay Graham? TJ Raphael, thank you for talking with me on American Scandal.
45:17 Speaker 05 Thank you so much for having me.
45:20 Lindsay Graham? That was my conversation with journalist and podcast host TJ Raphael. Her upcoming podcast for Wondery is called Liberty Lost. Listen to Liberty Lost wherever you get your podcasts.
45:35 Lindsay Graham? From Wondery, this is episode five of The Woman Who Sold Babies for American Scandal. Next on American Scandal, we return to a fan favorite and look at what may be the biggest political scandal in American history. In 1972, a group of burglars broke into the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate complex in Washington. The goals of the Watergate burglars were at first a mystery, but as Congress and the press pushed forward with their investigations, they would discover a conspiracy that threatened to take down the president, Richard Nixon. American Scandal is only possible because of listeners like you, so thank you. And don't miss an episode. Be sure to follow American Scandal on Audible or wherever you get your podcasts.
46:17 Lindsay Graham? And Audible subscribers can binge new seasons of American Scandal early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. And to find out more about me, including my other podcasts, my live show, the history tours I'm arranging, and all sorts of other things, go to historyishuman.com. That's historyishuman.com.
46:40 Lindsay Graham? American Scandal is hosted, edited, and executive produced by me, Lindsay Graham, for Airship. Audio editing by Christian Paraga. Sound design by Gabriel Ghul. Supervising sound designer Matthew Filler. Music by Thrum. This episode was produced by John Reed. Managing producer Emily Burke. Development by Stephanie Jens. Senior producers are Andy Beckerman and Andy Herman. And executive producers are William Simpson for Airship, and Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Aaron O'Flaherty for Wondery.
47:15 Speaker 05 Imagine you're reading Pride and Prejudice, except you're not reading it. Harris Dickinson and Marissa Abella are reading it to you on Audible. Her barbs sting you. His coldness sends a shiver up your spine. Your heart aches. Your ears burn. You yearn for Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy to profess their undying love for one another. You can't bear it any longer. Well, maybe a chapter longer. Performance is so good, you'll give love a second chance. Audible. Stories that speak to you.
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