Pod Insights American Alchemy The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive About this episode Our American Alchemist this week is Clas Svahn.
Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals!
MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod
The Perfect Jean: The Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code JESSE15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 #theperfectjeanpod
--------------------------
Support Our Other Projects Below!
Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/
Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/
Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w
--------------------------
JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤
https://whop.com/jessemichels
Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF
Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial
TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels
X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican
Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify
Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips
Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected]
Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected]
Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected]
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
04:28 Archives of the Unexplained
30:56 Time Travel Insights
39:01 Betty Hill's Hidden Past
53:12 Water Landings and UFOs
56:07 Sensitive DOD Archives Revealed
57:53 UFO Encounters and Eyewitness Accounts
1:01:38 Military Radar and UFO Sightings
1:05:28 Personal UFO Experiences
1:11:56 The Quest for Truth in UFO Research
1:18:35 Edgar Mitchell and Parapsychology
1:24:15 The Mystery of Astronaut Sightings
1:31:05 Shared UFO Experiences
1:36:00 The Complexity of UFO Photos
1:41:03 The Importance of Stories in UFO Cases
1:50:44 Lessons Learned from Decades of Research
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcript 18,663 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
0:31 Speaker 01 Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light hydrates faster than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.
1:02 Speaker 02 It's not only UFO library. It's about the unknown.
1:08 Jesse Michels? So how many countries do you have files from?
1:10 Speaker 02 Two. I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files.
1:15 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:16 Speaker 02 And they went out in the field and brought back debris.
1:22 Jesse Michels? What?
1:22 Speaker 02 From this crashed object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage. And they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. She was eight meters from there.
1:39 Jesse Michels? Meet Claus Spahn, journalist, author, and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real-life Swedish fox moulder. And that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X-Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, Spahn has not only reported on the phenomenon for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades building, organizing, and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO artifact. The Archives of the Unexplained. This 16-room building houses detailed witness reports, photographs, audio recordings, radar data,
2:21 Jesse Michels? video, and original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel? There's a time travel section? What is this, Brown and Burridge? Townsend Brown.
2:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:34 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
2:34 Speaker 02 I went to Eureka, California.
2:36 Jesse Michels? Uh huh.
2:36 Speaker 02 I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderlands Science Research Association.
2:48 Jesse Michels? What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. In this episode, we go over a half-century of overlooked evidence: radar-tracked objects executing impossible right-angle turns, military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft, sonar and radar returns, and of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations.
3:16 Jesse Michels? We discuss the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s: A swarm of at least 1,400 documented rocket- and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging into water. A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit, and American President Eisenhower to send his top general, James Doolittle, to investigate.
3:47 Jesse Michels? Claus Svan isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right, interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Claus dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris, which she went on to bury in her backyard, where it still might be to this day.
4:24 Speaker 02 I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.
4:30 Jesse Michels? Yes.
4:30 Speaker 02 But the mountain is resting on this. Mountain that is even bigger.
4:37 Jesse Michels? Yes.
4:37 Speaker 02 That is moving into the future.
4:43 Jesse Michels? This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard.
4:49 Speaker 04 When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it.
4:57 Jesse Michels? I brought my buddy Amar Can Deal from Yes Theory to the Archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo?
5:07 Jesse Michels? Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Klaas Svahn.
5:35 Jesse Michels? Klaas, we're back. Thank you for being here again, or thank you for having us, rather. We're at the beautiful Archives of the Unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim, full of documents.
5:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:49 Jesse Michels? And so, yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store. And you've compiled all of this.
5:55 Speaker 02 We started in 1973.
5:57 Jesse Michels? You started in 1973?
5:59 Speaker 02 We've been around for a while.
6:00 Jesse Michels? That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973?
6:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's right.
6:06 Jesse Michels? That's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand.
6:10 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
6:11 Jesse Michels? What is that?
6:11 Speaker 02 This one. It's a metallic, a piece of metallic. It's from Sweden. An island called Väder, northeast of Stockholm.
6:22 Jesse Michels? Okay.
6:22 Speaker 02 In 1957, two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night, really, because they were doing some work on Monday. This was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east, moving in front of the car, making a U-turn, and suddenly hanging in front of the car, which was totally died. So the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look on this road.
7:02 Speaker 02 They found this object there and it was hot, so they couldn't really hold it in their hands. It was so hot, so it was really burning them. And the car started and then drove away. After many years, this was analyzed and I also analyzed it and it's tungsten, all from carbide. This is very earthly. It has every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957, but tungsten is a very good leader of heat. So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. So the object affected it. So it was so hot.
7:47 Speaker 02 So it corroborates the story of the two carpenters.
7:51 Jesse Michels? So it's evidence and the car couldn't have made this tungsten hot? You think it was definitely the...
7:57 Speaker 02 No, it was in front of the car and it's impossible really. It must have been quite the heat to do that.
8:03 Jesse Michels? That's amazing.
8:04 Speaker 02 So that's interesting.
8:05 Jesse Michels? That's fascinating. Can I hold it?
8:06 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
8:07 Jesse Michels? It does feel oddly, you know, very, very smooth, but I'm sure that is also a natural element of tungsten.
8:13 Speaker 02 It is, it is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me.
8:16 Jesse Michels? Yeah, this is actually from outer space.
8:18 Speaker 02 Yes, we know.
8:19 Jesse Michels? This is not earthly, but it is prosaic. What is this?
8:24 Speaker 02 This is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago.
8:30 Jesse Michels? Okay.
8:31 Speaker 02 You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's one kilometer, so it's a huge crater. You can see it from space. It's very, very heavy. It's ninety-nine percent iron and a little nickel and some other elements.
8:47 Jesse Michels? Wow.
8:48 Speaker 02 So you can tell if something like this, and from the beginning it was huge, of course.
8:53 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
8:53 Speaker 02 Like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city, of course, there were no cities fifty thousand years ago. But today, the city would be gone, vanished.
9:07 Jesse Michels? How much, can I feel it? How much of UFO crashes do you think are, this is amazing, it's so heavy. How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events? Nuts and bolts, material gets left behind. You can have a crash retrieval team going, looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it. Do you think a high percentage of them are?
9:31 Speaker 02 I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway.
9:34 Jesse Michels? Yeah, we did.
9:34 Speaker 02 There were good witnesses. I mean, it landed and it sank.
9:38 Jesse Michels? Yes.
9:38 Speaker 02 And in nineteen forty-six, as we talked about the ghost rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom. Not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the weather piece. So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs as we're talking about could just vanish without a trace.
10:08 Jesse Michels? Do you know of any, because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders, you know, in the US, there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, Roswell is like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of nineteen forty-seven July. But the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs
10:43 Speaker 02 Okay, private citizens really.
10:46 Jesse Michels? Finds actual material themselves.
10:50 Speaker 02 Not here in Scandinavia. And the thing is, I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often. They are traveling presumably through space and they are crashing.
11:04 Speaker 02 Not all the time, but quite often. I mean, the UFO enigma to me is much more complex. And I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like these physical objects all the time. We are from time to time. I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that traveling huge speeds over Sweden.
11:28 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
11:29 Speaker 02 And of course, they are physical, but some are not.
11:32 Jesse Michels? Yes.
11:33 Speaker 02 So where in between could we distinguish? This is one of our UFO hardware. This is something else.
11:42 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
11:42 Speaker 02 I'm not sure.
11:43 Jesse Michels? Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?
11:48 Speaker 02 Not here in Sweden that I'm sure about, but in nineteen forty-six, we had.
11:53 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
11:54 Speaker 02 They were out, the government sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects.
12:02 Jesse Michels? You showed us photos.
12:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
12:03 Jesse Michels? Yeah. But do you think in the US, there's an official program around these things?
12:08 Speaker 02 I'm not sure. I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden, really.
12:12 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
12:14 Speaker 02 Of course, the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object.
12:22 Jesse Michels? Yeah, you'd have to dedicate resources to even try.
12:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely. It could be Chinese, it could be Russian, it could be something completely different. But I think your authorities would be interested.
12:33 Jesse Michels? You know, people know of Hesalden in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe?
12:44 Speaker 02 I mean, Hestal is interesting from many aspects first. In the nineteen eighties, early nineteen eighties, we and you from Norway had this huge expedition there. And we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Hestal, when you see something on a scientific instrument, the light, the thing is coming up from the ground. Going upwards, never the other way. We have in Sweden, Dalarna, which is in the middle of Sweden, where we have had several waves of UFO observations. We have a place on the island of Gotland called Martebo,
13:29 Speaker 02 where people go to a certain stretch of a road, watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know, we have been there, we have traveled around and drove our own cars, and they shouted, "Oh, that is, that is the object." But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something, except Hestalen if you stay long enough.
13:59 Jesse Michels? So that's really the UFO hotspot?
14:01 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's been there for many years. And the thing is about Hestalen, even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, to talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well, with crafts and sometimes even beings.
14:19 Jesse Michels? Yeah, we were there and it was not, it was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that live there had experienced things, like upwards of eighty, eighty-five, ninety percent of people. And that was all of the report. And everybody had family members and they'd experienced things. It was ubiquitous, pretty much.
14:39 Speaker 04 Several people in Norway, they have experienced, experienced stuff like that, seeing things, but they don't dare to tell it because they are afraid to being... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I know, when you speak to other people, "Have you seen anything unnatural?" "Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it."
15:05 Jesse Michels? You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to poll people,
15:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:10 Jesse Michels? They would say, you know, maybe 10, 15% would be open about, you know, it would be, it's the opposite. And Hestalyn, you're the, you're the pariah if you haven't, you know, seen a UFO or something.
15:20 Speaker 02 I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes. And 10% of them had seen something.
15:26 Jesse Michels? That's remarkable.
15:27 Speaker 02 It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open.
15:32 Jesse Michels? Okay.
15:32 Speaker 02 And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU.
15:39 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
15:39 Speaker 02 And presumably 1 million Swedes, 10% of around 11 million.
15:45 Jesse Michels? Wow.
15:45 Speaker 02 Have seen something.
15:46 Jesse Michels? Wow.
15:47 Speaker 02 And last, last night, I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter. And she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971. In October 1971. And she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden. It was daylight and the train was coming. And this is so strange, you know? This is typically strange for me.
16:17 Jesse Michels? Back in the day, I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump. But then I'd crash like my nervous system got slingshotted through a kaleidoscope. Anxiety spiking, aura flickering and REM sleep, never met her. It was like drinking battery acid on an empty stomach. Then I found Mudwater. It doesn't fry my circuits or my synapses. I use Mudwater's original blend over ice. It still has a little bit of caffeine, but it's stacked with adaptogens and nootropics like L-theanine, chaga, lion's mane, cacao, the whole earth squad to keep you naturally energized and to ensure that you don't wake up with the morning scaries. One sip of Mudwater and my cells report for duty.
17:02 Jesse Michels? Two sips and boom, I'm plugged into the fungal Starfleet. All systems go. So are you ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to mudwtr.com, that's M U D W T R dot com and grab your starter kit today. It's M U D W T R dot com. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal, up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code JESSIE at checkout.
17:35 Jesse Michels? That's right, up to forty-three percent off with code JESSE, that's J E S S E, at Mudwater, M U D W T R dot com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you.
17:50 Speaker 02 On this train, there was a carriage with scrap metal. Pile. She saw two men on that, looking for something. They have some like backpacks, but it was not backpacks. It was, they had like suits, like the Superman.
18:10 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
18:11 Speaker 02 But the one color only, silver color, with something protruding out of their back like that. And she watched them and suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage, looking at her. And they were holding their hands on the belt with a small box. And they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. And she was so frightened. She was eight meters from them. That's very, very close. And suddenly, I mean, she went away. And they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk
18:56 Speaker 02 that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. And she turned around and she could see they were still working, looking for something on this.
19:12 Jesse Michels? Wow. Interesting, super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all?
19:20 Speaker 02 I mean, she started to read about UFOs and tried. And nowadays, she's over seventy years of age. And she looked on YouTube and whatever. But she, she asked me what I thought. And I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical.
19:41 Jesse Michels? You're right.
19:42 Speaker 02 So they are so different, so diverse.
19:45 Jesse Michels? So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize.
19:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:50 Jesse Michels? High strangeness.
19:51 Speaker 02 If you really take a look at all of the spectrum, you will find that.
19:56 Jesse Michels? That's what Jacques Vallée, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience.
20:12 Speaker 02 Absurdity is the word, you know, that's a key word. It's really absurd.
20:16 Jesse Michels? And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself, like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile seemingly doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits, teleporting from can to can or whatever, it sounds insane.
20:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:33 Jesse Michels? But I'm sure that happened, you know? And so that seems to be this very common, common theme, this trickster element.
20:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
20:42 Jesse Michels? Do you think that that's at play here, this, this idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself?
20:50 Speaker 02 In a way, in a way, I agree with you because there are so many high strangeness cases. So the other ones, you say, oh, this is typically Whitley's Reebok alien. They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you really dig into all this, the pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories.
21:17 Speaker 05 When you were talking about the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding.
21:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:24 Speaker 05 And the suit, it reminded me of a, of a friend of a friend's account. So my, my best friend's sister's best friend.
21:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
21:34 Speaker 05 She was in Mexico, in Baja California, I think, and just like sunset, taking photos of, she was drinking like a Corona beer, she's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind and maybe half an hour later, as she goes through the photo, she sees something very, very similar to what this woman just drew.
21:51 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah.
21:52 Speaker 05 She drew it. So she was very scared to. Show the photo, but she drew it for me and then we were gonna get on the phone so that so that she can show me the photo just like via Zoom. And I think she had cold feet and I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but she that's what she says.
22:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
22:13 Speaker 05 And she just says like she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos and again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo of, she didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo.
22:23 Speaker 02 I mean, that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment.
22:27 Speaker 05 Yeah.
22:29 Speaker 02 Some are not.
22:29 Speaker 05 Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing.
22:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, it is.
22:34 Jesse Michels? That's amazing. That's so crazy with the little backpack and the jumpsuit.
22:39 Speaker 05 And you're saying it was like a some sort of a metal detector thing and they're on the beach in Mexico. It's like what is.
22:44 Jesse Michels? So weird.
22:45 Speaker 05 Yeah.
22:45 Jesse Michels? Yeah, no, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something.
22:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah, it's absurd.
22:49 Jesse Michels? That's absurd.
22:50 Speaker 05 Showtime.
22:51 Jesse Michels? Yeah. But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of it, in this case, an amazing UFO. This is Klaus's new book, Files of the Unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo?
23:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's taken by Hannah McRoberts, which you'll see if you can find it in here so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was.
23:21 Jesse Michels? Yep. I mean, look at that.
23:25 Speaker 02 So this is Vancouver Island.
23:28 Jesse Michels? And you've met her, right?
23:29 Speaker 02 I talked with her on telephone.
23:30 Jesse Michels? So what's the story behind this photo?
23:32 Speaker 02 Well, she was out driving together with her husband and she stopped. This mountain is quite well known. This was October the 8th, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on and got the, because it's an old film, this is not a digital film, it's an old camera. She found that there was something up in the air and it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome.
24:05 Jesse Michels? Do you think this photo is real?
24:07 Speaker 02 I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times and.
24:15 Speaker 02 I mean, she didn't fake it anyway. I think she is really doing this because she's curious about it. She don't understand.
24:25 Jesse Michels? She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying vibes.
24:29 Speaker 02 Absolutely not. She helped us with the picture and no problem with that. I mean, it's like this very famous picture, you know, there's with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress. And her father out on this moor, there were only them. His wife, little girl, took the picture. And when he got it back from the photographer, the business, you could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed it said, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stands behind her. It's called the astronaut because this looks like an astronaut. And nobody knows how it ended up there.
25:13 Speaker 02 Out on this moor, only them, only the three of them, free horizon.
25:18 Jesse Michels? Wow. What are the most, because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in the US of abductees or experiencers, over 50% experience humanoid creatures. So creatures that, you know, seem to be bipedal, walking upright.
25:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:37 Jesse Michels? Almost very similar to humans in many ways.
25:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:40 Jesse Michels? Is that similar to what you experienced in Scandinavia?
25:43 Speaker 02 I mean, we get stories from people that have seen like box-like entities floating.
25:51 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
26:21 Speaker 02 So you get it all if you are into this for a couple of decades.
26:26 Jesse Michels? Wow.
26:26 Speaker 02 You will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids.
26:31 Jesse Michels? So interesting. So yeah, alien is such a simplistic. It's such an oversimplification.
26:36 Speaker 02 I think so.
26:37 Jesse Michels? The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone. They're out in space and they've come here.
26:41 Speaker 02 It makes us understand it. We want to understand strange things.
26:44 Jesse Michels? Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny. Everybody references in the U.S. The 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, OSAP or whatever. The program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And before that, you had Bigelow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. There are poltergeists. There's like a werewolf. And that's how some of the anti UFO people try to show they think it's like all crazy or whatever.
27:26 Jesse Michels? But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can't memeify it into this simple. You know, it's just a gray alien and they're from Zeta Reticuli. They're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of whack a mole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well.
27:43 Speaker 02 Good summary, I think. I mean, you must really look very broad at this. And that's why I have you here. It's not only, only UFO library. It's about the unknown.
27:56 Jesse Michels? So how do you make? Cause you have done this Herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described? It's almost like Descartes' demon where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places. And it's like, how do you progress in a field where?
28:32 Jesse Michels? It's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans, you know, how do you progress?
28:36 Speaker 02 It is very difficult to do that.
28:37 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
28:38 Speaker 02 So most ufologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject.
28:45 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
28:46 Speaker 02 And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing.
28:51 Jesse Michels? Right.
28:51 Speaker 02 Because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most ufologists are saying, okay, this is not interesting. I'm looking at that.
29:02 Jesse Michels? Yes.
29:03 Speaker 02 And I think that's not the way forward, really.
29:06 Jesse Michels? But even beyond that, like I look at like, you know, Jacques Vallée, who we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, French godfather of a lot of modern research. Amazing guy. And, you know, on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge. He, you know, like if you read some of his early books, like Invisible College or something in 1975, are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then?
29:39 Speaker 02 No, I don't think so.
29:40 Jesse Michels? I don't think so either.
29:41 Speaker 02 That's sad, really.
29:42 Jesse Michels? It is.
29:43 Speaker 02 And it's really impossible to get further because it's so juge.
29:49 Jesse Michels? Yes.
29:49 Speaker 02 And there is no really good scientific approach to this.
29:54 Jesse Michels? Yes.
29:55 Speaker 02 Yet. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well.
30:02 Jesse Michels? Would one new scientific model involve, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer.
30:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:10 Jesse Michels? And then you have the observed and there's a, you know, clear distinct separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters.
30:22 Speaker 02 Absolutely. I met with a friend of mine who is a doctor and he's also very much into the human consciousness research.
30:31 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
30:31 Speaker 02 He's done research on twins and see what happened if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected.
30:36 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
30:37 Speaker 02 And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that.
30:42 Speaker 02 Twins are interacting without knowing that.
30:46 Jesse Michels? Wow.
30:46 Speaker 02 And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomenon.
30:53 Jesse Michels? It has to be.
30:54 Speaker 02 And I think so as well.
30:55 Jesse Michels? Yes.
30:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:56 Jesse Michels? Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology and that sort of thing?
30:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
31:00 Jesse Michels? Because if there is some sort of mind-matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what we see.
31:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, we know so little about what's inside our heads.
31:10 Jesse Michels? Yes, yeah.
31:11 Speaker 02 Great mass, but that's not the answer.
31:15 Jesse Michels? Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques Vallée, he says, you know, "I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet."
31:23 Speaker 06 From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet, because I think they could be something much more interesting.
31:33 Jesse Michels? It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with spacetime itself, where time seems like time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all or considered?
31:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, a scientist to approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part. There need to be a group of scientists and UFO lovers or whatever doing this together.
32:15 Jesse Michels? Time travel. Time travel? There's a time travel section? No, what? Time and time travel? What? Time loops and space twists.
32:33 Speaker 02 Let's see if I can find a Wendell Stevens documentary.
32:38 Speaker 02 I have no other clue. Oh, now I would crush.
32:41 Jesse Michels? Crush Omar. I'm just kidding.
32:43 Speaker 02 You can spare him. This is the NASA scientist.
32:47 Jesse Michels? Oh, wow, dude.
32:49 Speaker 02 So you can see here, if you read the labels here.
32:53 Jesse Michels? Corliss.
32:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, William Corliss, he wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project.
32:58 Jesse Michels? Ah.
32:59 Speaker 02 Only about enigmas.
33:01 Jesse Michels? So.
33:01 Speaker 02 So here you can see.
33:02 Jesse Michels? Psychology.
33:03 Speaker 02 His working papers. Then he passed away and I I cultivated his widow and it took me a couple of years.
33:09 Jesse Michels? Was he at all like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs? Or it's just a hobby?
33:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was a hobby. This is what they looked like.
33:19 Jesse Michels? Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh, my God. This guy's a genius.
33:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:24 Jesse Michels? Who is this guy?
33:25 Speaker 02 He was a genius.
33:25 Jesse Michels? This is amazing.
33:26 Speaker 02 We corresponded for many years, then he passed.
33:29 Jesse Michels? Wow.
33:29 Speaker 02 And then I I wrote to his estate.
33:32 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
33:32 Speaker 02 Working on it with his his son. And his wife was ninety plus.
33:38 Jesse Michels? Uh huh.
33:38 Speaker 02 And she started to compile everything in order for us.
33:41 Jesse Michels? Wow.
33:42 Speaker 02 And we sent two pallets from the US.
33:44 Jesse Michels? Oh, she's amazing.
33:46 Speaker 02 Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association, BSRA.
33:56 Jesse Michels? What? That's the most interesting UFO organization because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in case, certain cases in the forties.
34:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:10 Jesse Michels? About stuff.
34:11 Speaker 02 They were first.
34:12 Jesse Michels? So what what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and.
34:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:21 Jesse Michels? So, oh, it's so. And then they had, they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did.
34:28 Speaker 02 I went to Eureka, California.
34:29 Jesse Michels? Uh huh.
34:30 Speaker 02 I met with this guy in his garage.
34:32 Jesse Michels? Uh huh.
34:32 Speaker 02 And we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden.
34:35 Jesse Michels? Wow. And you have Tesla and what is this? Brown and Burridge?
34:40 Speaker 02 It's probably correspondence.
34:42 Jesse Michels? Who's Brown?
34:43 Speaker 02 Maybe Townsend Brown. I'm not sure. You can take a look. I don't, I don't know.
34:49 Jesse Michels? The immortal cell.
34:51 Speaker 02 Ron Brown.
34:52 Jesse Michels? Ron Brown. Oh, it's, oh, Townsend Brown.
34:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:55 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
34:56 Speaker 02 You can take a look and see what this is.
35:00 Jesse Michels? It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year. No phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just seventy nine dollars, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, twenty twenty six me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams.
35:45 Jesse Michels? They're soft, but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get fifteen percent off their first order plus free shipping at theperfectjean.nyc or just Google the perfect jean and use code JESSE15 for fifteen percent off. That's fifteen percent off for new customers at theperfectjean.nyc with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Hear khakis and get the perfect jean. T T Brown electrokinetic generator. Here, look, that's amazing.
36:27 Jesse Michels? Patent office for the electrokinetic generator. Well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown.
36:34 Speaker 02 They have some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring. But I'm not sure if they are functioning. But I think they are still left in Eureka.
36:43 Jesse Michels? Really? What apparatus?
36:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches.
36:49 Jesse Michels? Really? What?
36:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:51 Jesse Michels? I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else.
36:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple of months ago.
36:58 Jesse Michels? The man who mastered gravity?
36:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:00 Jesse Michels? What did you think?
37:01 Speaker 02 I think it was fascinating.
37:02 Jesse Michels? It's fascinating, right?
37:03 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:04 Jesse Michels? Isn't he the most interesting man?
37:06 Speaker 02 So many mysteries around him.
37:07 Jesse Michels? So many mysteries around him.
37:09 Speaker 02 He was on to something, I think, so.
37:11 Jesse Michels? I think so.
37:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:13 Jesse Michels? I think there's something very interesting about him.
37:16 Speaker 04 Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown.
37:18 Jesse Michels? Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. The Holy Grail of Physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link.
37:46 Jesse Michels? Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most?
37:52 Speaker 02 I grew up with the Bonnie and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago, in the early, middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses.
38:09 Jesse Michels? What was your new view on her when you met with her?
38:12 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, I was... Most ufologists, if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter with Indian Head.
38:23 Jesse Michels? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:24 Speaker 02 But she was.
38:25 Jesse Michels? Really?
38:26 Speaker 02 And not only that, she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her, her, I think it was sister, whatever, it was a relative. And something came crossing the sky and crashed. And they went out on the field and brought back debris.
38:45 Jesse Michels? What?
38:46 Speaker 02 From this crashed object.
38:47 Speaker 07 A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s, I was over here in Maine, visiting with the family. And it was a long night, and we're sitting outdoors on the porch, when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane, very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching it, it exploded mid-air and burned. Now, we said, you know, we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio, we turned on the TV, nothing.
39:28 Speaker 07 Well, up to my, by my mother's. My nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky. And he watched it, and when it cooled off, he got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me and said, no, we don't know what it is. Maybe, uh, I had some friends at the university. Maybe you could get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces. And I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them.
40:09 Speaker 07 So just before, about four days before we left to go on the trip. Barney said, what's that stuff up on the top shelf? Why don't you throw it away? We could use the shelf. Well, I was having some fill put in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard. And when they dumped the sand, they covered them. About three days later, we go on the trip.
40:41 Jesse Michels? Really? Betty Hill?
40:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, and she brought it.
40:43 Jesse Michels? Before her encounter?
40:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden.
40:48 Jesse Michels? Oh, so we gotta go to her house?
40:50 Speaker 02 You must dig there.
40:51 Jesse Michels? I will.
40:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's not her house anymore, so.
40:53 Jesse Michels? But it's in, in New Hampshire?
40:55 Speaker 02 It's in Portsmouth.
40:56 Jesse Michels? In Portsmouth, New Hampshire? No way.
40:58 Speaker 02 So that story you can listen to at, at I F U's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in, in, in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this as well. So the bottom line is she was very much into your phone.
41:13 Jesse Michels? That's fascinating. We gotta go dig.
41:15 Speaker 02 And not a single you follow this, really. cares about this. They don't want to know this.
41:20 Jesse Michels? Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter.
41:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:24 Jesse Michels? And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe.
41:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:28 Jesse Michels? Contact her.
41:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:29 Jesse Michels? Say, hey, we're the residents of the current house. This is under, we can go dig and find this thing.
41:35 Speaker 05 You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill.
41:38 Speaker 04 Oh geez.
41:38 Speaker 05 Oh geez. First abductees, nineteen sixty one.
41:42 Speaker 04 No, I know his granddaughter.
41:43 Speaker 05 Yeah, she Angela Hill, right? She's UFC fighter?
41:46 Speaker 04 Yeah.
41:46 Speaker 05 So cool.
41:47 Speaker 04 Crazy.
41:47 Speaker 05 What does she say?
41:48 Speaker 04 She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over.
41:53 Jesse Michels? You don't tell Joe Rogan?
41:54 Speaker 04 Grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad.
41:58 Jesse Michels? That's amazing.
41:59 Speaker 02 You should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say.
42:02 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
42:02 Speaker 02 And she told a very interesting story. And also when she draw the object to me. Uh, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim like a, like a hat.
42:16 Jesse Michels? Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you?
42:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And uh, uh, as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all day and talked with her. So, but it complicated the story.
42:33 Jesse Michels? Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is in nineteen sixty one, Betty and Barney Hill, they were an interracial couple. And they were ACLU activists, actually. And they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara Falls, or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire. And on the way, uh, they see this craft and it's flying around. And I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience. But um, like Barney starts to like go after the saucer, like almost like, it's like he's locked into it. And it's like, she's afraid and wants to keep going.
43:08 Speaker 02 And then he's very afraid after that. So.
43:11 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
43:12 Speaker 02 He don't want to pursue it.
43:13 Speaker 07 I'll take my head. Pull the pedocles away. God, give me strength. All right. Pull him down.
43:24 Speaker 07 Pulling the pedocles down and run. God. It says, my God, give me strength. I gotta get away. Oh, oh.
43:35 Jesse Michels? So anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli. Uh, they have these uniforms on, these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft. Reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that he like, um, samples were taken, like gametes were taken for themselves from him. So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them.
43:56 Speaker 02 They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth.
44:00 Jesse Michels? Ah, interesting.
44:01 Speaker 02 And they came running into Betty and asking, oh, what, what's that?
44:05 Jesse Michels? Interesting.
44:05 Speaker 02 That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know.
44:14 Jesse Michels? Right.
44:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
44:15 Jesse Michels? But they're in, in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like, it's like this, uh, routine thing.
44:24 Speaker 02 But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with a needle. And that was old here at that point, really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Zeta Reticuli use a method that is ancient?
44:45 Jesse Michels? What do you think?
44:46 Speaker 02 I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis.
44:52 Jesse Michels? Yes, later hypnotic regression.
44:53 Speaker 02 They never really, uh, remembered it, uh, in the waking.
44:58 Jesse Michels? So what do you think they had an encounter with?
45:31 Speaker 02 That's very hard to tell, but I think that all those stories are much more complicated. Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth.
45:42 Jesse Michels? Right.
45:42 Speaker 02 She told Barney about her interest in that, and he didn't like that at all.
45:48 Jesse Michels? But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them. When in fact, what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said were from Zeta Reticuli, that does point.
46:00 Speaker 02 Well, they didn't say that because that was the star map.
46:03 Jesse Michels? She drew a star map. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:06 Speaker 02 And that star map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars.
46:10 Jesse Michels? Right.
46:11 Speaker 02 So it's not.
46:12 Jesse Michels? But they said we're from another star system. Yeah.
46:15 Speaker 02 She asked about this map on the wall. And they told her that this was a commercial lines where they were traveling to make this.
46:26 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
46:26 Speaker 02 Really.
46:27 Jesse Michels? I believe, have you read American Cosmic by Diana Pasulka? Or are you familiar with it?
46:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:33 Jesse Michels? So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits playing.
46:38 Speaker 02 That was at that time.
46:40 Jesse Michels? Playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter that Benny and Barney Hill had.
46:45 Speaker 02 Show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard.
46:50 Jesse Michels? That had happened before.
46:51 Speaker 02 So many things before. So you cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis.
46:57 Jesse Michels? Right. Well, Pasulka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well. So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by, yeah, maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge.
47:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:14 Jesse Michels? So interesting.
47:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:15 Jesse Michels? You know, also another weird fact about that case is C D Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran Psychological Warfare and was very involved in MKUltra. And then went on to, I believe, give this Supruder film, which is the, you know, film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time Magazine because he's. Very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the Psychological Strategy Board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction.
47:55 Speaker 02 Okay.
47:55 Jesse Michels? So interesting. It's like, so it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the elite of American Warfare Operations, you know, a guy who's very high up in government, going to visit these two abductees. So strange in 1961.
48:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, wow.
48:11 Jesse Michels? I don't know.
48:13 Speaker 02 It's not easy, you know.
48:14 Jesse Michels? It's not easy, but I think we have to find that artifact.
48:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
48:18 Jesse Michels? Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are there any other objects?
48:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, we have. Here in Sweden, we have up in the north. There was a guy who said that he was a young boy. He met these craft and aliens outside his house. And he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. And he hid it, hid it on the ground. And we went there together with him, trying to find it.
48:46 Jesse Michels? Wow.
48:46 Speaker 02 But we couldn't find it.
48:48 Jesse Michels? Really?
48:49 Speaker 02 No.
48:49 Jesse Michels? Is there anything, have you ever found any objects that you think are?
48:52 Speaker 02 No, no, we haven't. The only one that I showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bona fide smoking gun thing like that.
49:00 Jesse Michels? Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side? Objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with? Because, as you know, Jacques Vallée publishes his mailing address online.
49:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:15 Jesse Michels? People will mail him pieces and recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan Experience and, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and this fisherman.
49:27 Speaker 02 Magnesium.
49:28 Jesse Michels? Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratios.
49:34 Speaker 02 I'd also read that there were such things at that time.
49:38 Jesse Michels? Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques? It just feels a little crazy, but.
49:54 Speaker 02 And why would you build a spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really, it's not very good to travel in.
50:00 Jesse Michels? Oh, I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium.
50:02 Speaker 02 Okay.
50:03 Jesse Michels? Because magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, um, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the Bifield Brown effect. Been named after Townsend Brown. And if you put a high K dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the K, the dielectric. So all of his papers include, uh, it's two things. It's um, barium, aluminum barium and magnesium bismuth. And so, and, and, and bismuth specifically is this big, this big, really important part.
50:46 Jesse Michels? But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some, some issues with it.
50:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, magnesium itself is not good, but if this alloy may be something different.
50:54 Jesse Michels? Well, it seems like the, what he found had, uh, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair.
51:00 Speaker 06 Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair.
51:07 Jesse Michels? And so it was extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale. And you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these, these things, so.
51:23 Speaker 02 But why do they explode over Yubato?
51:26 Jesse Michels? So that, the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust. That was, that's almost like the, the byproduct of the craft and who knows, you know, but.
51:36 Speaker 02 So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.
51:39 Jesse Michels? Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using?
51:42 Speaker 05 They need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an of an effect? That where they take the natural things and then they're doing something? And this ends up being the outcome? And then when they're done with it, they go, eh, and they throw it out.
52:00 Jesse Michels? Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can?
52:03 Speaker 02 I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can.
52:06 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
52:06 Speaker 02 But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in nineteen eighty, there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damajaur. And we have been there. And we have radar returns that something is in the mud.
52:30 Jesse Michels? Really?
52:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:31 Jesse Michels? Amazing.
52:32 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:32 Jesse Michels? So when are you gonna go look?
52:34 Speaker 02 We will be there again next year.
52:35 Jesse Michels? That's exciting.
52:36 Speaker 02 So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses.
52:40 Jesse Michels? Wow.
52:41 Speaker 02 In the middle of the day. And they could see this object coming below one hundred meters.
52:48 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
52:48 Speaker 02 Flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around one eighty.
52:53 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
52:54 Speaker 02 Towards them, lands with a splash. And sinking and bubbles are coming up. And then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from their rucksack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone. But they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm. And contacts the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Sturridge Wickers, he really looks into this, trying to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent an helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots and he told me this is a natural park, a natural park. You're not allowed to land there.
53:39 Speaker 02 But suddenly, one of the passengers felt sick.
53:43 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
53:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:44 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
53:45 Speaker 02 So hit their lens.
53:46 Jesse Michels? Ah.
53:47 Speaker 02 Uh, and I can see dead fish on the, on the, near the shore. So I take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power. Some radioactivity, I killed the fish, but it was, it was only a parasite.
54:00 Jesse Michels? Ah.
54:01 Speaker 02 And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later.
54:05 Jesse Michels? So just a parasite?
54:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
54:08 Jesse Michels? He thought maybe it is.
54:09 Speaker 02 It's there, it's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake.
54:17 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
54:18 Speaker 02 But in between, two meters. And exactly there, we got this return from an object that is still resting there.
54:28 Jesse Michels? Really?
54:28 Speaker 02 We don't know what it is, but.
54:30 Jesse Michels? But there is some object. Do you know the, do you know the shape of the object?
54:33 Speaker 02 No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip, we will look in three dimensions.
54:39 Jesse Michels? Wow.
54:39 Speaker 02 We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a national park.
54:44 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
54:45 Speaker 02 So if you find something, we cannot bring it up.
54:48 Jesse Michels? Well, if you need any extra media, media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come.
54:55 Speaker 02 I call you.
54:56 Jesse Michels? That sounds amazing.
54:57 Speaker 02 It is amazing, and this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects have, like in Norway. Flying very, very low.
55:07 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
55:08 Speaker 02 Turning, navigating, landing, sinking.
55:11 Jesse Michels? Interesting. And it always seems to be in water.
55:14 Speaker 02 Always water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer, they are out. It's good observation. I mean, I could see over the lake. But not a single one has seen any object flying over the lake and not landing.
55:36 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
55:37 Speaker 02 Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby.
55:44 Jesse Michels? It's so interesting. Why do you think that is?
55:46 Speaker 02 I mean, they want to land, they want to crash, they want to pinpoint the lake, that's for sure. And I'm not sure why they, they do this.
55:55 Jesse Michels? Do you think it's fuel?
55:58 Speaker 02 I mean, they're running out of fuel?
56:01 Jesse Michels? No, do you think water is their fuel?
56:03 Speaker 02 Oh, you mean that?
56:04 Jesse Michels? Because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O, are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic. That would be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power a craft.
56:22 Speaker 02 I think it's like driving your car into a gas station full of power and trying to get some petrol.
56:30 Jesse Michels? Yeah, fair enough.
56:31 Speaker 02 I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away.
56:35 Jesse Michels? Right.
56:35 Speaker 02 But they are either crashing straight down.
56:38 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
56:39 Speaker 02 Or landing quite hard.
56:41 Jesse Michels? Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be.
56:45 Speaker 02 You can always say that.
56:46 Jesse Michels? Refueling, I just, who knows, you know? It's interesting. I mean, they do, water just seems like this very important element, you know? The idea that they're transmedium.
56:56 Speaker 02 Water is important. It is. Not a single object has crashed on land in Sweden or Norway.
57:01 Jesse Michels? That's amazing, yeah. The fact that they literally only, the ghost rocket phenomenon. But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week.
57:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:09 Jesse Michels? You're saying that it was, it's not just the ghost rocket phenomenon that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only hit, landed in the water in Sweden generally.
57:20 Speaker 02 Sweden, Scandinavia.
57:22 Jesse Michels? In Scandinavia?
57:23 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:23 Jesse Michels? So post forty-six, forty-seven, all UFOs. That's amazing.
57:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
57:29 Jesse Michels? Wow.
57:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, it is wow.
57:31 Jesse Michels? That's so interesting.
57:32 Speaker 02 And it's all, nearly always, eleven o'clock, July, clear weather, hot weather.
57:39 Jesse Michels? That's what you said last time. It's so wild.
57:41 Speaker 02 So strange.
57:42 Jesse Michels? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on, or observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses or whatever.
57:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, but they should see some flybys.
57:50 Jesse Michels? Yeah, it's weird.
57:51 Speaker 02 I don't. They only see those landings and crashes.
57:55 Jesse Michels? It's so strange.
57:56 Speaker 02 But we have only small sample. I mean, maybe thirty.
57:59 Jesse Michels? Still, that's a, the fact that, I mean, that's enough to, that's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DoD archives here in Sweden.
58:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
58:14 Jesse Michels? What did you see?
58:16 Speaker 02 I've been looking for the files from a very important military. Customs Police Operation in the early nineteen seventies. They are still to be released in two thousand forty. But I just the other day got the clearance to to to get them cleared.
58:34 Jesse Michels? And did you see them?
58:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, I looked through them, but I will get a copy of them in a week or two.
58:39 Jesse Michels? Well, what did you what did you see?
58:40 Speaker 02 The interesting thing is that I found uh one observation that I knew the observer. This helicopter pilot, he was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in night time. Very strange object, sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift, go up with his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week. He was flying twenty meters over the treetops.
59:23 Speaker 02 And it was moonshine, it was uh um snow, so it was very, very good seeing. And suddenly this object coming, flying under the helicopter, over the treetops. And this small passage of twenty meters.
59:41 Speaker 02 And straight up in front of them. An elongated rocket-like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing. And it just flies away. And it it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter.
59:57 Jesse Michels? Whoa.
59:58 Speaker 02 And now, when I got those documents, I found this report. Um I can see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths. And also the the note from the military.
1:00:12 Jesse Michels? So it's picked up by radar?
1:00:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:14 Jesse Michels? Whoa.
1:00:14 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:15 Jesse Michels? And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter?
1:00:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:21 Jesse Michels? That's amazing.
1:00:22 Speaker 02 Yeah. And they land after this, their landing.
1:00:25 Jesse Michels? Whoa.
1:00:26 Speaker 02 And the security, the military security uh personnel comes and and debrief them.
1:00:34 Speaker 02 And he tells a story and they went, went away.
1:00:37 Jesse Michels? What was the shape of the object?
1:00:39 Speaker 02 It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings.
1:00:42 Jesse Michels? So similar to the ghost rockets?
1:00:44 Speaker 02 Typical ghost rocket.
1:00:45 Jesse Michels? Typical ghost rocket. What year was this?
1:00:47 Speaker 02 Uh, nineteen seventy-five, uh, November the seventh.
1:00:52 Jesse Michels? How fast was it moving, the object?
1:00:53 Speaker 02 Uh, it was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see because of the moon and, and the snow on the ground.
1:01:01 Jesse Michels? That's amazing because in the U S you have, you know, the kind of, one of the holy grail events is the Tic Tac Incident at Nimitz in two thousand and four. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the D O D archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time. That's amazing.
1:01:34 Speaker 02 And I will talk to his co-pilot in a, in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we have two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes.
1:01:49 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:01:50 Speaker 02 Uh, I have no access to them and I think I will not have any access to them.
1:01:54 Jesse Michels? Well, how would you get that?
1:01:55 Speaker 02 I will, I will try to get it, but.
1:01:57 Jesse Michels? How would you get the security personnel?
1:02:00 Speaker 02 Uh, I know people that works within the war archives.
1:02:03 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:02:04 Speaker 02 And they can help me to say if it's there.
1:02:07 Jesse Michels? To see if like he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff?
1:02:11 Speaker 02 I'm, I'm sure he was because all operation was built on that, that you were debriefing people after all those events.
1:02:19 Jesse Michels? And did you, and you've spoken to this witness firsthand?
1:02:22 Speaker 02 Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot, uh, just a couple of days ago.
1:02:28 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:02:28 Speaker 02 As soon as I found, find those, uh, documentations.
1:02:32 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:02:32 Speaker 02 I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter.
1:02:41 Jesse Michels? And this is being declassified for everybody? At, at what point will this be released to the public?
1:02:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, it, it will be. Uh, when I'm getting it, it will be.
1:02:51 Jesse Michels? And so what, when, when will that be? When this will be released?
1:02:55 Speaker 02 Uh, in a couple of weeks, I think. Uh, it all depends on how much I have to do, uh, scanning.
1:03:02 Jesse Michels? Is the pilot in Stockholm?
1:03:04 Speaker 02 No.
1:03:05 Jesse Michels? Where is the pilot?
1:03:06 Speaker 02 He's far away from here.
1:03:07 Jesse Michels? Okay. In Sweden, though.
1:03:09 Speaker 02 He's really nearer Norway than Stockholm, in Sweden, yeah.
1:03:13 Jesse Michels? Damn.
1:03:13 Speaker 02 The other pilot is in Australia.
1:03:16 Jesse Michels? Okay. Wow.
1:03:19 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
1:03:49 Jesse Michels? Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case.
1:03:54 Speaker 02 It is a good case. And I hope that I can really find all the pieces here.
1:04:00 Jesse Michels? Do you have any other cases like that, where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very hard.
1:04:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes, military radar, UFO.
1:04:13 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:04:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:04:14 Jesse Michels? You've seen with your own eyes? Military? And when was that? And what's the context?
1:04:18 Speaker 02 It was, I think, in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting, playing card, quite late. And they hear a strange noise. So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get his mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare. But it's a very bright object.
1:05:00 Speaker 02 And it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is very, it's a very secret. You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming. Going around.
1:05:21 Jesse Michels? It's amazing.
1:05:22 Speaker 02 So, yeah, that's a case you can corroborate.
1:05:26 Jesse Michels? That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material, have you seen the remnants of a UFO? Just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment in some way that's left there.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 No, not here in Sweden, no.
1:05:42 Jesse Michels? Okay. Because you told me last time about lily pads being affected by the ghost rockets. And so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like, it's a really important, you know.
1:05:56 Speaker 02 And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden.
1:06:01 Jesse Michels? Ah, really?
1:06:02 Speaker 02 I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of nineteen seventy-three, nineteen seventy-four. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the launch. And they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar-shaped object moving like this. So they are running down into their radar equipments and look, then they can see the object on their radar screens. And it's doing ninety degrees angles like this.
1:06:41 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:06:42 Speaker 02 And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And every one of those six, I found them during several years, are telling the same story.
1:06:54 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:06:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:06:56 Jesse Michels? All six?
1:06:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:06:58 Jesse Michels? That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff?
1:07:01 Speaker 02 No, I have them on tape only, but.
1:07:04 Jesse Michels? Well, that's good.
1:07:05 Speaker 02 The problem is that they told me that their commander is in the mountain. They were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen, so they did.
1:07:15 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:07:16 Speaker 02 But I haven't found them. I don't know where they can be.
1:07:20 Jesse Michels? Is the tape published on your website or?
1:07:22 Speaker 02 No, no, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like.
1:07:33 Speaker 02 This is Hilary Evans and his wife, Mary Evans. And they run this... They are passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans Picture Library. You can buy pictures, one of the biggest picture archives in England.
1:07:45 Jesse Michels? Cool.
1:07:46 Speaker 02 So, and half of the books you see here comes from Hilary.
1:07:49 Jesse Michels? Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful.
1:07:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, those are the classic ones, really.
1:07:55 Jesse Michels? Ah, yeah, Frederick W. H. Myers.
1:07:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:07:58 Jesse Michels? I have that book.
1:08:00 Speaker 02 And we have it in very early editions.
1:08:03 Jesse Michels? You know what inspired him to write this book?
1:08:05 Speaker 02 I don't remember now.
1:08:06 Jesse Michels? Jesus's resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science.
1:08:11 Speaker 02 Well, he didn't manage that.
1:08:15 Jesse Michels? William James was president of Society for Psychical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that.
1:08:26 Jesse Michels? You know what this is?
1:08:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, of course.
1:08:29 Jesse Michels? What do you think of this?
1:08:30 Speaker 02 I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracy theorists...
1:08:35 Jesse Michels? Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control.
1:08:39 Speaker 02 Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing very bad.
1:08:42 Jesse Michels? Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares.
1:08:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:08:46 Jesse Michels? So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the Earth might be weakening.
1:08:55 Speaker 02 The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven.
1:08:58 Jesse Michels? Yes, but the Charles Hapgood, that that creates this sort of cataclysm.
1:09:03 Speaker 02 No, not Charles Hapgood's theory, really.
1:09:05 Jesse Michels? You know, okay.
1:09:06 Speaker 02 The science theory is really solid and it could be problematic when it happens.
1:09:11 Jesse Michels? Interesting.
1:09:12 Speaker 02 Because every gadget you have, like, trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy.
1:09:19 Jesse Michels? Yeah, and some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out if...
1:09:26 Speaker 02 If that happens today.
1:09:28 Jesse Michels? It'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no... Your grid would be down, no running water.
1:09:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:09:37 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:09:38 Speaker 02 And we don't have the spare parts.
1:09:39 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:09:40 Speaker 02 So it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system.
1:09:45 Jesse Michels? Do you think that solar flares send with them a message? Or there's any sort of intelligent? You know, there's a scientist in the UK. He's in London, in Hampstead, outside of London, named Rupert Sheldrake.
1:09:59 Speaker 02 Oh, I know about him, yeah.
1:10:00 Jesse Michels? He writes about the sun being conscious.
1:10:02 Speaker 02 Yeah. He wrote a Gaia book in the 1970s.
1:10:06 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:10:06 Speaker 02 I grew up with that, and I know about Rupert Sheldrake very well.
1:10:09 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:10:10 Speaker 02 Uh, no, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star.
1:10:13 Jesse Michels? Uh huh.
1:10:14 Speaker 02 And the star does what the star does.
1:10:15 Jesse Michels? Yep.
1:10:16 Speaker 02 And the Earth is not important to the star.
1:10:19 Jesse Michels? Yes, but, okay, if I were to push back, maybe. The magnetosphere of the Earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like, you could put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle. Allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, biological evolution. Like, if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive.
1:11:02 Jesse Michels? And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Hal Puthoff is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. The NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics.
1:11:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:11:16 Jesse Michels? And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun. And they move in ways that are, don't decay or attenuate over spacetime like your traditional transverse Hertzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on Earth via the sun.
1:11:37 Speaker 02 I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that, and they are not aware of it. They only do their thing.
1:11:47 Jesse Michels? Hmm hmm.
1:11:48 Speaker 02 But of course, it affects the life on Earth, absolutely.
1:11:51 Jesse Michels? Yes. But you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're, ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not conscious. And so. You know, we'll never know.
1:12:06 Speaker 02 We never know, of course, but I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun or...
1:12:13 Jesse Michels? It's impossible to say, though. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically, but, um, you know, are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale?
1:12:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:28 Jesse Michels? You know, I don't know.
1:12:29 Speaker 02 We are a tiny fraction of the universe, so...
1:12:32 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:12:37 Jesse Michels? This is my friend, Frederick Guldahl. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him?
1:12:44 Speaker 02 No.
1:12:44 Jesse Michels? Ah, he's cool. Amar and I met him, actually. Was it, it was two summers ago. This is right before we did the David Grush thing.
1:12:54 Speaker 05 So how many countries do you have files from?
1:12:56 Speaker 02 Two.
1:12:58 Speaker 02 I don't know. I have no answer to that, but we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files.
1:13:02 Speaker 05 Wow.
1:13:03 Speaker 02 I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the street. There were soldiers everywhere, and there was shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files.
1:13:19 Jesse Michels? Amar, do you have any, is there anything coming up for you or? Because you have spent decades doing this, and I'm just curious why.
1:13:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several, several cases. I know, know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning.
1:14:10 Jesse Michels? Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going? Where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting, something...
1:14:23 Speaker 02 I'm not quite stubborn, you know?
1:14:25 Jesse Michels? What's that?
1:14:25 Speaker 02 I'm stubborn.
1:14:26 Jesse Michels? It sounds like you are.
1:14:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm a... I'm a natural researcher, really, from the beginning. I'm amateur astronomer and all that. And I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden.
1:14:41 Jesse Michels? It's amazing.
1:14:42 Speaker 02 So people know that I really try very hard. And of course, it's okay to believe, but I want to know.
1:14:48 Jesse Michels? Yeah. And when you say no, what is that? If you were to instantiate that in something very specific?
1:14:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, I want to know what happened, really. I'm not sure I want, I can not.
1:14:58 Jesse Michels? So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material? You want a material where you're like, this is definitely.
1:15:05 Speaker 02 In every single case, I want to know what happened.
1:15:08 Jesse Michels? Oh, that's tough, man.
1:15:11 Jesse Michels? Because.
1:15:11 Speaker 02 It's tough.
1:15:12 Jesse Michels? I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like, if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti-gravity, some, you know, you know, heavy element reactor thing. What would that do for us? Like, would that would be?
1:15:33 Speaker 02 Change everything, of course.
1:15:34 Jesse Michels? Well, it would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now. It'd be like, I know. Tell me what is going on.
1:15:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's impossible. Yeah. As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions.
1:15:49 Jesse Michels? Yeah, that's true. Knowledge, um, questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like, you could think of knowledge like a, like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. The more the sphere grows, the, the questions grow, you know, the outside at an exponent.
1:16:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:16:10 Jesse Michels? And so it's the, the more you know, the less you know. And that, that really should be sort of with, with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like, there's this received wisdom. And it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you know, you get to the end of the chapter and it's, that's it, you know, end of it. But nothing is that simple.
1:16:31 Speaker 02 I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.
1:16:37 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:16:37 Speaker 02 But the mountain is resting on this. Mountain that is even bigger.
1:16:43 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:16:44 Speaker 02 That is moving into the future.
1:16:46 Jesse Michels? That's beautiful.
1:16:47 Speaker 02 Suddenly, we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain.
1:16:51 Jesse Michels? Are there any philosophers in UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think
1:17:00 Jesse Michels? speak most to the UFO question? Or researchers that you're really inspired by?
1:17:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm inspired by, of course, we had said Shakvali, but Chris Obeck. He's a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases.
1:17:19 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:17:19 Speaker 02 He's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Saucers shows that the saucer shape is so scarce. It's not very much reported.
1:17:33 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:17:33 Speaker 02 Still, people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer-like. But it's only a fraction of all the observations.
1:17:41 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:17:42 Speaker 02 Are saucer-like.
1:17:43 Jesse Michels? Yeah, even if you look at like where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case. It wasn't really saucers.
1:17:50 Speaker 02 No.
1:17:51 Jesse Michels? They kind of look more like Horton Wing.
1:17:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, they were crescents.
1:17:54 Jesse Michels? Crescents, yeah. Like ninja stars or something.
1:17:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:17:58 Jesse Michels? Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. Do you think, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers? Are you familiar with this?
1:18:06 Speaker 02 Yeah, I read it, yeah.
1:18:07 Jesse Michels? And he said that, you know, that was the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness, is represented in the UFO.
1:18:15 Speaker 02 Archetype he talks about. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to UFO research.
1:18:24 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:18:24 Speaker 02 But of course, if you're living in society, in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to.
1:18:33 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:18:34 Speaker 02 And we are conforming. All the time. So it's not strange that those airships in the eighteen hundreds.
1:18:41 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:18:41 Speaker 02 And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships.
1:18:46 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:18:47 Speaker 02 It's just that we are using the words we have the most high-tech thing we can think of.
1:18:54 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:18:54 Speaker 02 So I don't think it must be anything of that.
1:18:57 Jesse Michels? But what's also just John Mack, you know, Harvard, um, you know, head of the psychiatry department there. He would say that the the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it is in some ways.
1:19:11 Speaker 02 Think of really, I think.
1:19:12 Jesse Michels? Yeah. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself, like airships. Were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing.
1:19:28 Speaker 02 No.
1:19:29 Jesse Michels? In the eighteen nineties. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation.
1:19:33 Speaker 02 And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know.
1:19:36 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:19:37 Speaker 02 They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon.
1:19:43 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:19:43 Speaker 02 They read the sci-fi first.
1:19:45 Jesse Michels? Oh, yeah.
1:19:45 Speaker 02 And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done.
1:19:48 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:19:49 Speaker 02 So you need that element to be able to take the next step.
1:19:53 Jesse Michels? You do. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological. Element almost always supersedes the the actual doing of the of the thing.
1:20:04 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:20:04 Jesse Michels? But I think we've. Lost that for at least a little period after World War Two, maybe, and now it seems like things are speeding up again.
1:20:13 Speaker 02 I mean, after the World War Two, we were occupied with other stuff, really.
1:20:16 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:20:17 Speaker 02 Building the world again. So. Yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for for a while.
1:20:23 Jesse Michels? Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves? That interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye?
1:20:35 Speaker 02 I don't think so. No, I don't think so.
1:20:37 Jesse Michels? Cause you said you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right?
1:20:39 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
1:20:40 Jesse Michels? So Edgar Mitchell is the um, sixth man to walk on the moon.
1:20:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:20:45 Jesse Michels? He uh, Apollo fourteen on the way back from the moon, he had this sort of. Parapsychological conversion where he.
1:20:52 Speaker 02 He wanted to experiment with the Swedish guy, really.
1:20:54 Jesse Michels? Ah, really? Tell me about it.
1:20:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, they they had managed to put this program that uh. Uh, Edgar Mitchell should be sending things. The other one was to pick them up.
1:21:05 Jesse Michels? So like a typical mind matter uh experiment. We have a sender and a receiver.
1:21:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:21:12 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:21:12 Speaker 02 But there are some problems with that because the timeframes were not all. They were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it.
1:21:21 Jesse Michels? Very. And was it a successful experiment?
1:21:24 Speaker 02 Uh, not that successful.
1:21:26 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:21:26 Speaker 02 No, no.
1:21:27 Jesse Michels? That's too bad.
1:21:28 Speaker 02 Didn't prove anything really. No, but it was done and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell, too, that worked with psychical things.
1:21:39 Jesse Michels? The Noetic Society.
1:21:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:21:41 Jesse Michels? What, did you learn anything when you spent time with him?
1:21:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen a UFO in space.
1:21:49 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:21:50 Speaker 02 I mean.
1:21:51 Jesse Michels? I'm not sure about that.
1:21:52 Speaker 02 I'm sure. He said it to me. So I mean.
1:21:54 Jesse Michels? Yeah, but maybe.
1:21:55 Speaker 02 He knew them all.
1:21:56 Jesse Michels? But they all sign NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but um Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War Two.
1:22:07 Speaker 02 Hmm.
1:22:08 Jesse Michels? And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, I'm in this country, I'm in this country. And he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin.
1:22:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:22:25 Jesse Michels? And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says.
1:22:32 Speaker 06 I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in SETI and he got labeled a UFO freak or something. And I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's gonna help put civilians into space. I, I can't do it.
1:22:51 Jesse Michels? He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs. But if he did, it would hurt his reputation.
1:22:56 Speaker 06 Then he said, he said, and how's my story gonna change anything anyway?
1:23:01 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:23:01 Speaker 06 And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Uh, your testimony would be paramount.
1:23:10 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:23:10 Speaker 06 Uh, to, to do that. And remember, this is in the nineties, right?
1:23:16 Speaker 06 Yeah, probably late 90s. I talked to, asked him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not gonna happen. So that I was devastated, like devastated.
1:23:29 Jesse Michels? I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? But you never know, you wanna believe. But he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so, and then there's speculation, obviously, in American Cosmic that astronauts sign NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed, his name is Tim Taylor, is NASA mission controller. And he says, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. So you think?
1:24:01 Speaker 02 I know a lot of astronauts in Cosmic.
1:24:03 Jesse Michels? You do, yeah.
1:24:04 Speaker 02 And not a single one of them has said anything like that.
1:24:08 Jesse Michels? Fair enough. Do you know any very well? Or like, you know?
1:24:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well.
1:24:13 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:24:14 Speaker 02 I go to Noga Mitchell very well.
1:24:15 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:24:16 Speaker 02 I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon. And a few, maybe 10 cosmonauts from Russia.
1:24:24 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:24:25 Speaker 02 And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule.
1:24:35 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:24:35 Speaker 02 It produced those ice particles flying out.
1:24:38 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:24:39 Speaker 02 And he said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know, but I only try to comment on things that I really spend time.
1:24:50 Jesse Michels? Do you know who Leonav is? The, one of the fathers of the Russian space program?
1:24:56 Speaker 02 No, I don't know him.
1:24:57 Jesse Michels? So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Eia Whitley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts. And she says they all see stuff in space too. So it's so interesting because you seem extremely hard headed and thorough. I mean, you're like the most thorough guy ever. And so like, I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts.
1:25:21 Speaker 02 I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.
1:25:23 Jesse Michels? Yeah, me too.
1:25:24 Speaker 02 Not from someone else who says, oh, they have.
1:25:26 Jesse Michels? Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, no, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is? Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseam in American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. And they're meeting outside of the EG and G parking lot and Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs.
1:26:10 Speaker 05 That wasn't meant for public consumption and that was released from Mitchell's estate. And that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from, from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and, and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document, if, if he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand.
1:26:37 Jesse Michels? It seems like Edgar Mitchell is, had some really interesting access.
1:26:43 Speaker 02 He was very interested.
1:26:45 Jesse Michels? In UFOs.
1:26:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, absolutely. Very interesting.
1:26:48 Jesse Michels? Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know?
1:26:59 Speaker 02 I mean, he was a believer even before, I mean.
1:27:01 Jesse Michels? He was?
1:27:02 Speaker 02 Yeah. So he was curious about this, but he didn't see anything and he says that no one else did. So I only can tell what he told me.
1:27:11 Jesse Michels? What were the interesting things he told you?
1:27:13 Speaker 02 And we talked a lot about, he met with Yuri Geller, you know, he did experiments with Yuri Geller. He was very much impressed by him. I met with Yuri Geller as well. I'm not impressed by him at all.
1:27:25 Speaker 02 I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do.
1:27:27 Jesse Michels? Yeah. He seems like a bit of a con man.
1:27:30 Speaker 02 He's a, yeah.
1:27:31 Jesse Michels? Well, he also, now he goes on Twitter and he goes, he goes Putin, don't press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to, and it's like, he's been wrong so many times.
1:27:43 Speaker 02 Nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randi, you know James Randi?
1:27:49 Jesse Michels? Yeah, of course.
1:27:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, we sat like this, but even closer.
1:27:52 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:27:52 Speaker 02 And he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he did it. He bent it like that, I couldn't see it.
1:27:59 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:27:59 Speaker 02 But the thing he did, he put my, my hand over my own watch.
1:28:03 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:28:03 Speaker 02 And then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it. And it was five hours like that.
1:28:09 Jesse Michels? Yep.
1:28:10 Speaker 02 And we did it again, and it was back to the same time.
1:28:14 Jesse Michels? So interesting, interesting.
1:28:16 Speaker 02 It's hard to do that, but.
1:28:18 Jesse Michels? Well, he was an amazing magician.
1:28:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, he was the amazing Randy.
1:28:21 Jesse Michels? The amazing Randy. But he, he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bad faith actor. Yuri Geller is one of these things where cases where, you know, the Princeton parapsychology lab has a whole
1:28:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:28:36 Jesse Michels? book on Yuri Geller and like they studied him a lot. Andrej Puharic brought Yuri Geller to the States.
1:28:42 Speaker 02 I think it was there, he got a mission, met with Yuri Geller.
1:28:44 Jesse Michels? Oh, interesting.
1:28:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:28:46 Jesse Michels? So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing. And then you get the amazing James Randi with his prize to, you know, be.
1:29:03 Speaker 02 But the most gullible people you can, you can ask for are the scientists.
1:29:07 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:29:08 Speaker 02 You should put.
1:29:10 Jesse Michels? That's interesting. What, what, what do you mean? I, I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that?
1:29:14 Speaker 02 They are not prepared to be, to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it.
1:29:21 Jesse Michels? Ah, so they think that reality is, ah, that's so interesting.
1:29:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:29:27 Jesse Michels? So they're not, they're not prepared for a magic trick or something?
1:29:30 Speaker 02 No, no, they aren't.
1:29:32 Jesse Michels? Ah, that's a good, that's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else Edgar Mitchell told you?
1:29:40 Speaker 02 We talked for hours and hours, I don't remember now, I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you're looking for my name, Ed Mitchell.
1:29:50 Jesse Michels? Cool.
1:29:51 Speaker 02 Because I published it and it's out there.
1:29:54 Jesse Michels? That's fascinating.
1:29:54 Speaker 02 It was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in.
1:30:01 Jesse Michels? What UFO-related meeting impacted you the most?
1:30:08 Speaker 02 Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me. Because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was sixteen. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours, an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, a hundred kilometers away. And I also saw the object. But they didn't understand what it was.
1:30:50 Speaker 02 And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was. I wrote to the newspapers, I was sixteen, and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. I saw it for hours and I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it, they were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter.
1:31:28 Jesse Michels? Why?
1:31:29 Speaker 02 The same stars.
1:31:30 Jesse Michels? Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter?
1:31:32 Speaker 02 Because they didn't know what it was, and...
1:31:35 Jesse Michels? It doesn't normally show in the sky there.
1:31:36 Speaker 02 One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer.
1:31:42 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:31:43 Speaker 02 He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens.
1:31:47 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:31:47 Speaker 02 And he pointed to this object and said, "Can't you see the windows?" And they were looking, "Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows." What I could see were the moons, the three moons that were
1:32:01 Jesse Michels? Ah.
1:32:03 Speaker 02 Jupiter at that point.
1:32:04 Jesse Michels? That's unbelievable.
1:32:05 Speaker 02 So he was impacting them. And that was very, very good uh learning for me.
1:32:13 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:32:14 Speaker 02 That if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. Because you don't want to be the guy that
1:32:22 Jesse Michels? Deviates.
1:32:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, supports the party.
1:32:25 Jesse Michels? So they're crowd like dynamics.
1:32:27 Speaker 02 Absolutely. This was my my first big UFO case.
1:32:31 Jesse Michels? That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the the Atacama Mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunked this case?
1:32:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, I did.
1:32:44 Jesse Michels? And then at what point do you decide you're gonna dedicate your life to UFO research?
1:32:49 Speaker 02 I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I I I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to
1:33:00 Jesse Michels? Ah, interesting.
1:33:00 Speaker 02 To understand.
1:33:01 Jesse Michels? But why did you decide that a couple of months earlier? What was the moment?
1:33:04 Speaker 02 Uh, I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Maristad.
1:33:10 Jesse Michels? Had you had an experience or?
1:33:12 Speaker 02 No, no, no, not at that time. I had not seen anything. Uh, I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see? I wanted to know what people saw in the sky.
1:33:24 Jesse Michels? Have you had an experience since then?
1:33:25 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, yeah, I I had an experience together with my wife. In nineteen ninety five, November the fifth. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving, and Annalise was sitting beside me. We were just coming into our the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. The other one was looking. So I said to Annalise, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? And she did that, but she said, no, it's a fantastic sky.
1:34:10 Speaker 02 It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm.
1:34:17 Speaker 02 So we passed them and we were quite near our house. So I parked the car inside our garage and we went out and I thought now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. So we scanned the sky, we stood one meter uh from each other. And suddenly out of the black in Gemini between Castor and Pollux, not from the horizon, just back,
1:34:49 Speaker 02 came three illuminated plus signs. Bam bam bam.
1:34:53 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:34:54 Speaker 02 And they flew, they flew over us. And Annalise saw it immediately, so I didn't have to say anything. But I said, oh, did you see? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we ran after them around the corner because they passed over our our roof. And we could see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space be- behind beside them, but it's so they were glued together. And they were so easy to see.
1:35:21 Jesse Michels? When you say glued together?
1:35:23 Speaker 02 I mean, they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus signs.
1:35:30 Jesse Michels? Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they?
1:35:38 Speaker 02 Like beside beside each other.
1:35:41 Jesse Michels? So it was a ob- okay, so they were plus sign formations of UFOs?
1:35:45 Speaker 02 No, no, they were they were plus signs.
1:35:47 Jesse Michels? Solid plus signs?
1:35:48 Speaker 02 Solid plus.
1:35:49 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:35:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:35:50 Jesse Michels? Have you ever heard of a case or like that?
1:35:53 Speaker 02 Not at that point, but I took a look. But I should say one more thing that I said to Annalise, we don't talk, we go inside. Here's a form, you sit in the kitchen, I'm sitting here.
1:36:06 Jesse Michels? Spoken like a true UFO researcher. So you literally made yourself like this double blind. And then you both described what you see and you didn't talk.
1:36:16 Speaker 02 No.
1:36:16 Jesse Michels? That's amazing. You you maintained your discipline even in your own sighting.
1:36:21 Speaker 02 What should I do?
1:36:22 Jesse Michels? That's awesome.
1:36:23 Speaker 02 So we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same. They never are, but they were of the same objects.
1:36:29 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:36:30 Speaker 02 Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator for you for Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to to to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't.
1:36:41 Jesse Michels? Were the plus signs, what color, white?
1:36:44 Speaker 02 White.
1:36:45 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:36:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:36:46 Jesse Michels? And how fast were they traveling?
1:36:50 Jesse Michels? Wow. How low were they?
1:36:52 Speaker 02 They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars. But they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower.
1:37:05 Jesse Michels? Any um other anomalies like right angle turns or disappearing or?
1:37:11 Speaker 02 No.
1:37:12 Jesse Michels? Lights or?
1:37:13 Speaker 02 The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue, on the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing.
1:37:20 Jesse Michels? It's like they just appeared?
1:37:21 Speaker 02 Yeah. And? And I never, I never talked about this to anyone for months, except for the researcher. Because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio. And I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her eighties and she was a young girl in the thirties. And she had been out with her mother who was in inside the house. She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored.
1:38:06 Speaker 02 And suddenly, on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere. Rolling on the road, jutes.
1:38:17 Jesse Michels? Whoa.
1:38:18 Speaker 02 And gone.
1:38:20 Jesse Michels? Wow. Were yours also rolling like that?
1:38:23 Speaker 02 No, no.
1:38:23 Jesse Michels? Okay, hers were.
1:38:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:38:25 Jesse Michels? Yours were more floating.
1:38:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, they were rigid, rigid, really, they were.
1:38:29 Jesse Michels? Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke. That the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like.
1:38:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:38:39 Jesse Michels? A flying saucer, or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much, or triangles, or it's the more common thing.
1:38:46 Jesse Michels? Klaus, do you ever wonder? What if in one of these random manila envelopes?
1:38:52 Speaker 02 The answer.
1:38:53 Jesse Michels? Yeah, or is this the most undeniable evidence?
1:38:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, of course. We haven't read them.
1:38:58 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:38:58 Speaker 02 I mean, we have read some of them.
1:39:00 Jesse Michels? So we need to get you funding, man.
1:39:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available.
1:39:05 Jesse Michels? Do you have any plans to digitize?
1:39:08 Speaker 02 We do it all the time.
1:39:08 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:39:09 Speaker 02 All the time. We only one guy do it.
1:39:12 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:39:13 Speaker 02 So he's sitting under an avalanche, you know?
1:39:15 Jesse Michels? What's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout out.
1:39:17 Speaker 02 Leif Ostrand is a real hero.
1:39:19 Jesse Michels? Leif Ostrand, thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher? And has gone the deepest on the files, besides you?
1:39:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. Yeah, Gregor Jajian from the US.
1:39:42 Jesse Michels? Ah.
1:39:44 Speaker 02 He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State.
1:39:50 Jesse Michels? Interesting.
1:39:51 Speaker 02 So he spent a couple of weeks.
1:39:52 Jesse Michels? Is he into UFOs?
1:39:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, he wrote his book about the history of UFOs.
1:39:57 Jesse Michels? He did?
1:39:58 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:39:58 Jesse Michels? Okay. I don't know who he is, really.
1:40:00 Speaker 02 No, he's often on TV and things like that. I like him expert. He's very good.
1:40:03 Jesse Michels? Do you like him?
1:40:04 Speaker 02 Yeah, I like him. Really good researcher.
1:40:07 Jesse Michels? Do you know the Penn State, um, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is?
1:40:12 Speaker 02 Walker.
1:40:12 Jesse Michels? Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was the lead scientist. And he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic Twelve.
1:40:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:40:28 Jesse Michels? There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadell. And that guy spoke to-
1:40:34 Speaker 02 Henry Azadell.
1:40:34 Jesse Michels? Henry Azadell.
1:40:35 Speaker 02 He's a very, very elusive guy. He has several names.
1:40:40 Jesse Michels? Ah.
1:40:41 Speaker 02 He published this Silver Diamonds South African thing with the fraud.
1:40:45 Jesse Michels? Ah. So do you think he was like in intelligence or?
1:40:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. I don't trust him at all.
1:40:51 Jesse Michels? So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with?
1:40:54 Speaker 02 I don't know, but Henry Azadell, he's not a bona fide UFO guy.
1:40:58 Jesse Michels? Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker?
1:41:01 Speaker 02 No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Azadell.
1:41:04 Jesse Michels? So, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron.
1:41:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
1:41:07 Jesse Michels? So Grant Cameron wrote a book and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between-
1:41:15 Speaker 02 Grant is a good guy.
1:41:16 Jesse Michels? Oh, yeah.
1:41:17 Speaker 02 Yeah. Henry, uh, I mean, he faked those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of them being fake.
1:41:27 Jesse Michels? Apparently, there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets.
1:41:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:41:34 Jesse Michels? And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you. And he got very paranoid.
1:41:41 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:41:41 Jesse Michels? So I, you know, and then there's also, um, I'm sure you're familiar with, um, Steinman, William Steinman.
1:41:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:41:47 Jesse Michels? So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker.
1:41:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:41:51 Jesse Michels? Because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so he, I believe he went to Penn State, Steinman.
1:42:02 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
1:42:02 Jesse Michels? Um, him and, uh, Scott, was it Scott Crane? I believe his other colleague.
1:42:08 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
1:42:09 Jesse Michels? And they tried to meet with Eric Walker and Eric Walker again was like, you guys are chasing your tails. You're like, I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and, um, uh, Eric Walker. And he said, you're, you're, you know, what do you know about the sixth sense? What do you know about psi? And then, uh, he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. And goes, until you know about that, you don't know anything about this. And you're chasing your, you're basically, it's like Don Quixote.
1:42:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, yes.
1:42:37 Jesse Michels? Fascinating. So I, I was just thinking that because this guy is from.
1:42:40 Speaker 02 That is interesting, but not Henry.
1:42:42 Jesse Michels? Uh, Esadel, yeah.
1:42:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, he has too many, uh, problems.
1:42:46 Jesse Michels? But, but you can't, if somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out with the bathwater. For sure.
1:42:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:42:57 Jesse Michels? You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people, I think in the U S now who are on the circuit, who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo. But you, that doesn't mean you should not talk to them.
1:43:11 Speaker 02 No, no, absolutely. Talk to them. Absolutely.
1:43:14 Jesse Michels? And then, and then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration.
1:43:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:43:20 Jesse Michels? But I, yeah.
1:43:21 Speaker 02 I agree with that.
1:43:21 Jesse Michels? Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay.
1:43:23 Speaker 02 Sure, for sure. But there are too many of them, so it's very hard to distinguish.
1:43:27 Jesse Michels? There are a lot, yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying with the Henry Azad, like maybe some, some stuff's true, some's fake, you know, I don't know.
1:43:33 Speaker 02 It could very well be like that.
1:43:35 Jesse Michels? So, Klaas, you mentioned Adamsky, which is a very interesting case.
1:43:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:43:40 Jesse Michels? Around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman, hard to say. It seems like he was caught in some lies.
1:43:49 Speaker 02 Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that.
1:43:54 Jesse Michels? Right.
1:43:55 Speaker 02 But many of the pictures he took, you know, those motherships and scout ships, he was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things.
1:44:07 Jesse Michels? Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements? Or he was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, he was hanging out with George Van Tassel, right? And who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case? Or?
1:44:24 Speaker 02 It's rather complicated, but I, I don't think his, his pictures have been properly analyzed.
1:44:32 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:44:32 Speaker 02 I think they, they should be. There was one guy who did some analytic work on it, but he don't want to share.
1:44:41 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:44:41 Speaker 02 When I ask him, he don't want to share how he did it.
1:44:44 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:44:44 Speaker 02 And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamsky wrote.
1:44:50 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:44:50 Speaker 02 And I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Stekling has read them.
1:44:56 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:44:57 Speaker 02 And I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far.
1:45:03 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:45:03 Speaker 02 So there are still some openings or closings, I'm not sure which one it is, to the case. So I want to know more really about Adamsky.
1:45:12 Jesse Michels? So you're not, you haven't made up your mind?
1:45:14 Speaker 02 I've not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door.
1:45:19 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:45:19 Speaker 02 But I think most of it are not as good as it should be.
1:45:23 Jesse Michels? What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss.
1:45:25 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, Billy Meyer I don't trust.
1:45:28 Jesse Michels? You don't, you think that he
1:45:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:45:30 Jesse Michels? Hoaxes.
1:45:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:45:31 Jesse Michels? The photo, I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases, but then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning, he was attracting real stuff. And so, and you get the same things sometimes with Chris Bledsoe where people are like.
1:45:46 Speaker 02 The story, no, in the beginning it was good.
1:45:48 Jesse Michels? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:45:49 Speaker 02 I don't buy that.
1:45:50 Jesse Michels? You don't buy it.
1:45:50 Speaker 02 I don't buy that. And if I, I have loads of his pictures.
1:45:53 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:45:53 Speaker 02 At home.
1:45:54 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:45:54 Speaker 02 And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on, on a table.
1:46:01 Jesse Michels? That's not good.
1:46:02 Speaker 02 That's not good. He used even pictures from books.
1:46:05 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:46:06 Speaker 02 You know, the time travel he made to the dinosaurs.
1:46:09 Jesse Michels? Yeah, yeah, that was so strange.
1:46:11 Speaker 02 I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is the picture I took when I traveled back, back in time.
1:46:18 Jesse Michels? That's cra- that's crazy.
1:46:19 Speaker 02 It's not.
1:46:20 Jesse Michels? He says that in the book?
1:46:21 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:46:21 Jesse Michels? Okay, I, I, after this, it's hard to take him seriously. Really? He says, he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's a clearly a fake photo?
1:46:28 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, I have the book myself. You can pair it. It's exactly the same picture.
1:46:32 Jesse Michels? Jesus Christ.
1:46:33 Speaker 02 And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his ha- or her hand, I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there, so you can only see the arm. And this incredibly fake looking gun, like from a toy store.
1:46:51 Jesse Michels? I just had a guest on who said, this guy's in Jason Reza Giorgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that?
1:47:00 Speaker 05 Billy Meyer. Also, not really his name. I mean, his, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style, super spy, field intelligence operative.
1:47:15 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:47:16 Speaker 05 Working primarily in the Middle East.
1:47:18 Jesse Michels? Billy Meyer?
1:47:19 Speaker 05 Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey, in a bus accident, his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland, where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contact D phenomenon.
1:47:33 Jesse Michels? I didn't know that.
1:47:35 Speaker 05 I dug up this and have documented it all in Closer Encounters.
1:47:39 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:47:40 Speaker 05 So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the King of Jordan.
1:47:58 Jesse Michels? Billy Meyer?
1:47:58 Speaker 05 Billy Meyer.
1:47:59 Jesse Michels? What? He had like British intelligence ties?
1:48:02 Speaker 02 You always tend to love to make stories better.
1:48:05 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:48:05 Speaker 02 Most of the time, he's just a crazy guy making up things to make himself a new Jesus like Billy Meyer really tried to do.
1:48:15 Jesse Michels? That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception. And it's like you get all this cult creation around, you know, certain figures in ufology.
1:48:28 Speaker 02 It's interesting because there are here in Sweden, we had quite a few sorcerer cults.
1:48:33 Jesse Michels? Yeah.
1:48:34 Speaker 02 Where guys who want to make themselves bigger than they are.
1:48:39 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:48:40 Speaker 02 Have told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women.
1:48:47 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:48:49 Jesse Michels? Interesting.
1:48:52 Jesse Michels? What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world.
1:48:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, loads of them, really.
1:49:00 Jesse Michels? What is your top UFO photo?
1:49:05 Speaker 02 Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier.
1:49:14 Jesse Michels? Yep.
1:49:14 Speaker 02 The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the seventies, they tend to say, okay, I faked it.
1:49:22 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:49:23 Speaker 02 I did so with every single Swedish nineteen seventy photo. And it's always young men.
1:49:30 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:49:31 Speaker 02 Not a single girl.
1:49:32 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:49:33 Speaker 02 And when I called them ten or fifteen years later, they said, okay, I admit I did it. It faked, except one who still maintains his story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian, he's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life. And I gave him the chance every second year, I call him again and say, hi, it's me.
1:49:59 Jesse Michels? You can admit that you faked it now?
1:50:00 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:01 Jesse Michels? And he won't admit it?
1:50:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:02 Jesse Michels? What's his name?
1:50:03 Speaker 02 Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure, Kristo Sundström.
1:50:07 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:50:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:08 Jesse Michels? And can, do you have the photo?
1:50:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can, of course.
1:50:14 Jesse Michels? You can send it?
1:50:14 Speaker 02 I can send it so you can have it in.
1:50:16 Jesse Michels? I'd love to see it.
1:50:17 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
1:50:17 Jesse Michels? Is that the most visually appealing, clear photo that you can't debunk?
1:50:22 Speaker 02 It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it.
1:50:28 Jesse Michels? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:50:29 Speaker 02 I did it as well.
1:50:29 Jesse Michels? Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, you see, you did fake it.
1:50:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, I did a fake.
1:50:34 Jesse Michels? Well, you can fake any of these photos and then somewhat, certain ones, you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who
1:50:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:50:45 Jesse Michels? seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. It's, there's no way to fully prove it or disprove it.
1:50:54 Speaker 02 The thing is that it's not the picture, it's the story.
1:50:57 Jesse Michels? Hmm.
1:50:58 Speaker 02 I mean, when you go through this guy and make an interview, then to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards. Then it falls apart.
1:51:15 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:51:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:51:16 Jesse Michels? So you think that there's, that it's fake? Because he, the story doesn't actually stand out.
1:51:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture.
1:51:28 Jesse Michels? But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake?
1:51:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it's fake.
1:51:32 Jesse Michels? You think it's fake?
1:51:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:51:33 Jesse Michels? So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real?
1:51:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, I was trying to find out that. Most people should say the McMinnville picture.
1:51:42 Jesse Michels? McMinnville, yeah.
1:51:42 Speaker 02 But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago. And this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string. If you make a
1:51:54 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:51:54 Speaker 02 data enhancement of it.
1:51:56 Jesse Michels? Really?
1:51:57 Speaker 02 So I don't know anymore.
1:51:59 Jesse Michels? Oh, no, the McMinnville?
1:52:01 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:52:01 Jesse Michels? That's like a holy grail, you know?
1:52:04 Speaker 02 It's very hard to find a picture you can say that, wow, this, this is good.
1:52:09 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:52:09 Speaker 02 You have to look for the story.
1:52:10 Jesse Michels? So there, is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that you're very high conviction are real?
1:52:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, I have no photos that I'm, except the one I told you about with the radar returner I saw myself. That picture is of course of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar.
1:52:43 Jesse Michels? Yes.
1:52:44 Speaker 02 I know it was there. And of course, he couldn't know it was a military radar.
1:52:49 Jesse Michels? So you have on that case, you have radar?
1:52:52 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:52:52 Jesse Michels? You have a photo?
1:52:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, two witnesses.
1:52:54 Jesse Michels? And you have two witnesses? That might be one of the best UFO cases ever.
1:52:59 Speaker 02 It's for real. I mean, that happened.
1:53:02 Jesse Michels? And that's the one you're gonna go digging for?
1:53:04 Speaker 02 No, it's around the same area.
1:53:06 Jesse Michels? Around the same area?
1:53:07 Speaker 02 Not connected in any other way.
1:53:09 Jesse Michels? Okay.
1:53:10 Speaker 02 It's many, many years between them.
1:53:12 Jesse Michels? Wow.
1:53:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:53:14 Jesse Michels? Fascinating. Klaus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field?
1:53:22 Speaker 02 I would love to understand that it's very scarce time. You have to make interviews with people before they passes away. I miss so many.
1:53:34 Jesse Michels? Who's top of the list?
1:53:37 Speaker 02 Lots of people from the Ghost Rocket era. Investigators and witnesses that I... Oh, in the 1980s, when I started to pursue that, they were gone, many of them.
1:53:48 Jesse Michels? Who's the number one person?
1:53:50 Speaker 02 It was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden, who was very much doing research and met people all around North Sweden and made interviews. I missed him, and that's really, really sad. I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes.
1:54:13 Jesse Michels? It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this like large scale, and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions. And so you're very obviously rigorous. And so, appreciate your time, man. Thank you for having us.
1:54:41 Speaker 02 Thank you.
1:54:48 Speaker 05 Alchemists, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy Magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video, with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video.
1:55:50 Speaker 05 Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger: Fresh for Everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.
Previous CIA Chief Breaks Silence on Time Travel Abilities Next The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon] Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
