Presidential Advisor: “I Directly Handled UFO Material” (Ft. Harald Malmgren)

Join us for a special episode with former presidential advisor Harald Malmgren. A 27 year old Harald Malmgren literally saved the world from nuclear catastrophe during The Cuban Missile Crisis when Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara and President JFK asked him to “buy time for diplomacy” by facing off against General Curtis “Bombs Away” LeMay. Malmgren, the youngest of the “whiz kids”, went on to become a presidential advisor not just to JFK, but LBJ, Nixon and Ford. He had a personal relationship with Putin and advised every Japanese Prime Minister since Tanaka in the 70’s, Giscard d’Estaing, Pompidou and others. He was assigned to “contain” Kissinger and worked closely with Howard Baker, George Schulz, Volcker and Mondale not to mention Nobel Prize winners Tom Schelling and Sir John Hicks. Unusually, he had ALL the so called Q Clearances. His credentials are unimpeachable. Harald is a hero who saved the world (and more than once). There was more he held back and that he took to his grave. He was an angel amongst devils and his legacy should make all world leaders think twice, reflect and “lower the temperature” on the world stage when contemplating brinksmanship. We barely scratched the surface on what he likely had to say and will have to mull this over for years. But it’s a quantum leap forward for disclosure and simply can’t be ignored by members of the mainstream media. We are extremely grateful to Harald’s incredible daughter Pippa Malmgren for co-hosting this discussion. She was Special Assistant to President Bush and a member of The National Economic Council and a very heterodox thinker in her own right. She teased the truth from her father and helped him come forward with his critically important insights. She set the whole discussion up and we’re forever indebted for her entrusting us to help tell Harald’s story. She said that Bissell told my Dad - “because you’ll need to pass it along in the future at the right time”. At 89, she knew her father in turn had to relay this vital information, this time, on a broader stage as our multipolar nuclear world remains stuck in old paradigms. Australian Intelligence Analyst Geoffrey Cruikshank, who has gone deeper than anyone in the world on analyzing the Bluegill Triple Prime Test UFO incident, also conferred with Harald Malmgren to confirm the veracity of his foundational research. His research was essential to this piece. Rest in peace Harald Bernard Malmgren (July 13th 1935 - February 13th 2025). -------------------------- ***JOIN OUR WHOP (Exclusive Episodes & Group Calls) ➤ http://whop.com/jessemichels ***Become a Member of American Alchemy: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuG2KzrIMe3qoNcuDVpwnXw/join Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  It's not for any of us to understand the world and how the world works.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  This is it.

• 0:34Jesse Michels?

  It's October of 1962, the heart of the Cold War.

• 0:41Jesse Michels?

  Images from an American U-2 revealed that the Soviet Union had secretly begun building missile bases in Cuba, just 90 miles off the coast of Florida.

• 0:53Jesse Michels?

  Strategic Air Command was placed in DEFCON 2, the only time that's ever happened in the history of the United States. Khrushchev and Kennedy both had top military strategists pushing them to draw first blood.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  We are asking tonight that an emergency meeting of the Security Council be convoked, without delay.

• 1:15Jesse Michels?

  Curtis LeMay, head of the Strategic Air Command of the Air Force, wanted to deal a death blow to the Soviets. Amidst this tense backdrop, Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara called one of his top aides, a 27-year-old whiz kid named Harald Malmgren, into the Situation Room.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  Listen, don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down, reduce the heat in the room, and give us time to work something out.

• 1:47Jesse Michels?

  Miraculously, the Hail Mary worked. Harold, the youngest man in the Situation Room, ran circles around one of the most aggressive four-star generals in American history.

• 1:58Jesse Michels?

  And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically backed them into a corner where you say, "What would be your prime target first?"

• 2:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I said, "It's madness. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to."

• 2:09Jesse Michels?

  And then at that point, LeMay storms out.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, he literally got up, slammed his papers down, and said, "I'm not going... I refuse to run with this."

• 2:21Jesse Michels?

  Malmgren went on to become a top presidential adviser for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And the fact that he neutralized LeMay and saved the world is the least interesting thing I'll be discussing with him.

• 2:34Jesse Michels?

  You've been dropping bombs on the internet, saying some amazing things.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  JFK, well, they knew all about UFOs long before he became president.

• 2:50Jesse Michels?

  Harold had been tweeting things that have taken it all seriously alongside his credentials and background would wholesale overturn your worldview.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  No, it's been handling. These are things that have come down.

• 3:02Jesse Michels?

  So you're looking at anomalous material?

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:05Jesse Michels?

  Debris?

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08Jesse Michels?

  This interview changed my life forever and will hopefully do the same for you. In it, Harold admits to directly handling UFO material that fell out of the plume of a Marshall Island's nuclear test. This is world history. It's the first time anybody of this caliber has ever admitted to handling UFO material directly.

• 3:28Jesse Michels?

  What did it feel like?

• 3:30Speaker 00

  It felt weird because it didn't feel anything, but you know.

• 3:37Jesse Michels?

  He discusses getting briefed on other world technologies by Deputy Director of Plans for the CIA and Chief Architect of Area 51, Richard Bissell. Malmgren tells me that Bissell confirmed to him the existence of the Magenta UFO crash of 1933 in Italy, recently reported on by UFO whistleblower David Grush.

• 3:59Jesse Michels?

  He did?

• 4:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:01Jesse Michels?

  Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta crash?

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:04Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 4:06Jesse Michels?

  If that's not enough, Malmgren also implies that he was being tracked by the Majestic 12 from a young age.

• 4:22Jesse Michels?

  The Majestic Twelve is an elite group of military, science, and government advisers governing the UFO issue that were described in document leaks in the 80s and 90s. But this is the first time anybody of this caliber has ever mentioned that name.

• 4:47Jesse Michels?

  You have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend-Brown. What source did you get it from?

• 4:55Jesse Michels?

  Foreign intelligence. We get into the Chinese science fiction novel The Three-Body Problem, which Harold believes may be the best model we have for the UFO story.

• 5:05Jesse Michels?

  It's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development.

• 5:11Jesse Michels?

  That's at the heart of it.

• 5:13Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 5:13Jesse Michels?

  Harold's daughter Pippa would know that. She was special assistant to President Bush and on his National Economic Council. It's now public knowledge, through how put off, that George W. Bush contemplated UFO disclosure with his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley. As Pippa relayed to me, a lot of these high-level disclosure discussions revolved around one particular book, a Chinese science fiction novel called The Three-Body Problem, which became mandatory reading among many high-level national security advisers in the United States.

• 5:47Speaker 05

  And to fast-forward spending time with my own father.

• 5:50Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  And discovering that he's been involved with this from the earliest days.

• 5:58Jesse Michels?

  Finally, we discuss secret science going on at sensitive Department of Energy sites across the country. Alan Dulles, the director of the CIA, the Italian mob, secret societies, the JFK assassination, and how all of these might relate to UFOs.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  The relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father, Angleton, and the Knights of Walter.

• 6:21Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Do I think so? Yes. I think it was probably the number-one issue.

• 6:37Jesse Michels?

  In many ways, Malmgren was sort of a Forrest Gump of global elite politics.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  He must have looked for me, found me in a crowd, brought me over, and he introduced me to Putin. Now, I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting.

• 6:55Jesse Michels?

  It became clear to me in the midst of this interview that Harold was part of a much deeper intelligence network that we barely scratched the surface on.

• 7:03Speaker 05

  You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed.

• 7:10Jesse Michels?

  If I had a choice, I would have spent weeks with Harold going deep on his vast knowledge of UFOs, deep politics, and global power structures.

• 7:21Jesse Michels?

  Unfortunately, a day after our interview, we had to rush him to the hospital. That hospital visit ended up lasting a few weeks, culminating in his tragic passing.

• 7:35Jesse Michels?

  But when I was back in Austin, Harold insisted on speaking to me on the phone to follow up. His vitals on the cusp of failure, just three days before his death, he revealed even more to me, things that will make you further question your reality.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  If you ask me, did I have a purpose? Yes.

• 7:59Jesse Michels?

  In this final courageous interview, Harald Malmgren transcends his earthly oaths and adheres to a higher godly principle in one final act of service to humanity, one that may end up being just as consequential as saving the Earth from nuclear catastrophe. Without further ado, please welcome this week's American alchemist, may he rest in peace, presidential advisor and international peacekeeper, the Honorable Harald Malmgren.

• 8:51Jesse Michels?

  Harold, it's Jesse.

• 8:54Speaker 00

  Oh, hi Jesse, how are you?

• 8:55Jesse Michels?

  Good, man, how are you is the more important question. You scared me last week.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  I'm having to explain step by step who I am, how I happen to be here, and each person says, "Oh, I didn't know that."

• 9:19Jesse Michels?

  Well, I'm flanked by greatness and just honored to be here. I'm here with Dr. Harold Malmstrom, who was a presidential advisor to four different presidents: JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, among various other amazing accolades. You helped stop a couple of global crises, if we're going to get into that. But I think for the purposes of this conversation, you've been dropping bombs on the internet and really saying some amazing things that deal with the nature of reality, non-human intelligence, UFOs, or as they're commonly referred to now, UAPs, and informal briefs that you've gotten on the subject.

• 10:01Jesse Michels?

  And so, I couldn't be more excited to be speaking with you now about all of this. And we also have Dr. Pippa Malmstrom, who is equally amazing, and she was a special assistant to George W. Bush on his National Economic Council. She's written a few great books, I recommend you all check them out, and she's going to be joining us for this conversation as well. So I'm honored to be here with both of you guys.

• 10:24Speaker 05

  Thank you so much for having us.

• 10:26Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 10:27Speaker 03

  Well, I'm honored because I've watched your work with several people, and you've done an amazing job. The most, one second in my mind is your interview with Matthew. Pines.

• 10:42Jesse Michels?

  Well, that means so much. Matthew Pines makes it easy. He's one of the smartest people I've met and has a really interdisciplinary understanding. He can go from physics.

• 10:52Speaker 06

  I'm not a practicing physicist. It's not my job. But I'm trying to like familiarize myself with Garrett Leesey's stuff, with Sabina's stuff, Wolfram and Jonathan Garrard.

• 10:59Jesse Michels?

  But he can also understand the minutia of Washington and how it works.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's why I like him.

• 11:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 03

  He's unusual.

• 11:07Jesse Michels?

  He is very unusual. So you ended up known as one of Robert McNamara's whiz kids, quote unquote. And just this kind of child prodigy. But you grew up on the other side of the tracks. And so I'd love to hear just a little bit about your childhood.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Well, I was born in the middle of the Great Depression. And my mother and father were immigrants from Sweden. We lived right by Narragansett Bay, just off the Atlantic. When I was just turning seven, my mother said, "Well, this is the day you have to start working." So when you came home from school, I'd measure you down to the water and bring home dinner. There's people around rationing at that time, meat rationing. So I learned to use a boat, learn to fish, learn to get crab traps.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  I even had lobster traps, dig up shellfish. So every day I brought home something. It became second nature. Sometimes I had to stop and pick up an ice, a big piece of ice, because we didn't have refrigerators. It was completely heavy. I was still little. Anyway, when I was 13, going on 14, this was before my 14th birthday.

• 12:37Speaker 03

  My father was, had found work as a restoration specialist. And we restored old mansions in Newport, around Boston, near Cambridge. And we were working on this big house. He said, can you help me? It's the summer. And so I was working with steel wool and some kind of solution to clear wall of panels. And this big gentleman came in the room and said, hello, young man, what are you doing?

• 13:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm helping my dad. He said, sit down and talk to me. And that was a little bit unusual. Why does he want to talk to me? Anyway, we talked. Yeah, what are you doing at school? What are you learning about? Two hours later, he called my father and said, I want to take this boy out of your school. I want him to come in September and matriculate in MIT. And we'll give him a full scholarship, all four years. I'm not sure he needs the full four years. We'll give him all the years he needs.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  We'll give him internship. He doesn't have to wait by summers. And if all goes well, we'll take him all the way to the right of his school. I said, wait a minute, I'm not ready to leave home. And he said, listen to me, I'm really offering you a whole new life. I said, yeah, but I like my life. But Carl Compton, he said he was president of MIT. And I didn't know then the whole history of the large role he played in the Second World War. I think he was in charge of the World Production Board at some point.

• 14:45Jesse Michels?

  So this was Carl Compton, who was the sitting president of MIT, which allowed him, he had the power to offer you a full ride.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  He had the power to do that. So we ended up friendly.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  But he said, "You've talked about things at the very frontier of things." And you--

• 15:08Jesse Michels?

  At thirteen or fourteen.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, he said, "You stunned me because you brought up, 'What is a photon? Why don't we understand it?'" "We have a picture of it."

• 15:17Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  "We have a picture of everything else, no photon." I said, "I thought about it, and thought about it." "I didn't know Einstein's dilemma."

• 15:28Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  So I said, "It's something that operates in interaction with something else, probably another photon, and probably it's in pulses, and probably there doesn't matter how far apart. It's just that interaction. But you can't get a picture of it because those pulses are so too fast. And science is two different things. Probably it's more than two, probably it's many. And that's the problem, that you're trying to get at something specific when it's not specific."

• 16:03Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 16:04Speaker 03

  And he said, "Nobody thought that."

• 16:06Jesse Michels?

  (laughing)

• 16:08Speaker 03

  "So you don't understand. You have an inventive mind, you see beyond, but the biggest minds..." I said, "Yes, but I'm not ready to go home, leave home."

• 16:26Jesse Michels?

  Malmgren displayed knowledge of physics concepts with Compton that he wasn't supposed to, not only because he was too young to know these concepts, but because they hadn't even been proven experimentally yet.

• 16:40Jesse Michels?

  Entangled photons are considered a single system in quantum mechanics, meaning that even when separated by large distances, they instantly affect each other's states, essentially acting as a single unit. They also conserve quantum properties with respect to one another. This is now commonplace knowledge, but Malmgren was saying this at the age of 14 in 1950. And while entanglement as a concept was predicted by Einstein and his colleagues in 1935, the treatment of entangled photons as a system was only made explicit in the 60s and 70s with Bell's Inequality Theorem and with the measurements of physicist John Clauser. So how did young Malmgren understand this concept at 14 as a poor painter's son?

• 17:28Speaker 05

  There's a bit of a backstory and part of my job in the interview is just to pull out some of this background that led to my father's extraordinary career. But the key was, before you met Carl Compton, you'd written to the Atomic Energy Agency asking for background on nuclear physics. So you'd, at that age, already read an immense amount.

• 17:53Jesse Michels?

  Can we show some of that correspondence?

• 17:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 17:56Jesse Michels?

  Do we have the... This is amazing. This here, the control of atomic energy. So this is what they sent back to you.

• 18:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, not only that, but genetic effects of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 18:10Jesse Michels?

  See, that's really interesting. They were really interested in the genetic stuff. And you have Detlev Bronk is written about here. You know, Detlev Bronk was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation, but he was also president of Johns Hopkins. He was rumored to be on this quote-unquote majestic 12 and do autopsies on non-human intelligence bodies. And so, and then you had all these studies going on at the time, like the Cambridge Labs, where you had the Polaroid founder and a bunch of these guys studying human genetics with respect to radiation. And Annie Jacobson has uncovered a lot about Area 51, where they were doing a lot of, you know, human genetic experimentation vis-à-vis radiation as well.

• 18:53Speaker 05

  And again, some of these photographs are quite extraordinary. And when I came across them in Dad's old files, I'm like, what the heck are these?

• 19:01Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 19:01Speaker 05

  And they're from the Atomic Energy Commission and they're photographs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 19:08Jesse Michels?

  These are Geiger counters, is that right? You were telling me last night.

• 19:12Speaker 05

  This is Hiroshima. Credit US Air Force.

• 19:15Jesse Michels?

  Wow. This is amazing.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  So that's why he knew a lot at that age. And Carl Compton starts to register. The president of MIT, that he's got this kid who's basically holding the paint bucket for his dad. And he knows a lot about photons. And so I think that's where this began. He was identified at a very early age.

• 19:40Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 19:40Speaker 05

  As someone with a very particular...

• 19:44Speaker 05

  Proclivity.

• 19:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 05

  And then, fast forward, because, you know, I looked at my dad's career. I look back and I'm like, how the heck did you end up, at age 27, being the joint liaison between the Joint Chiefs and the President of the United States National Security Council under Bob McNamara and JFK, just as the Cuban Missile Crisis is beginning?

• 20:08Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:09Speaker 05

  And, you know, Dad has an amazing story to tell about what it was like to be in that room as the decisions were being made.

• 20:18Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 20:18Speaker 05

  And he played a really critical part in preventing a nuclear catastrophe.

• 20:24Jesse Michels?

  That's so amazing.

• 20:25Speaker 05

  Which is a story I think he should tell.

• 20:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I can't wait to hear it. But clearly, you had been tracked at a young age. I mean, this is a letter that you're receiving from Oak Ridge National Labs, and it's atomic bomb engineering. So it's clear that they are like, okay, here's this whiz kid. Let's give him a limited information set, see what he can do with it, and maybe have some sort of initiation path. How you almost, you know, serendipitously and miraculously wind up at Carl Compton's house, holding a paint bucket? I don't quite know. I can't explain that.

• 21:01Jesse Michels?

  Who is this Carl Compton? Well, he served as the president of MIT from 1930 to 1948. During that time, he also served on Franklin Delano Roosevelt's National Defense Research Council and worked closely with Vannevar Bush on federally funded scientific research for the promotion of American military supremacy. At MIT, Compton was heavily involved in the famous RAD lab and its development of American radar. His top technical aide was John Trump. If you recognize that name, it's because John Trump is the late uncle of our current sitting president, Donald Trump. And John Trump was charged with investigating Tesla's files that were confiscated by the FBI

• 21:44Jesse Michels?

  to see if they'd confer any tactical warfare advantages to the United States. One of Trump's last interviews was also featured in a documentary on Thomas Townsend Brown's Philadelphia experiment.

• 21:55Speaker 07

  And I was particularly looking for something which would be evidence of a secret weapon, which was a matter of concern to the United States.

• 22:07Jesse Michels?

  But I digress. For the purposes of this conversation with Harold, Carl Compton pops up in UFO history twice. First, you have Robert Sarbock, former head of Washington National Labs, also one of America's premier nuclear scientists. Sarbocker is famously on record saying that UFO secrecy is classified at two levels higher than the hydrogen bomb. But Sarbocker also told nuclear engineer and UFO researcher Stanton Friedman that none other than MIT President Carl Compton was briefed on UFO technology at Wright Airfield in 1950. But there are more UFO touchpoints for Compton. Another researcher in California named William Steinman

• 22:52Jesse Michels?

  had been corresponding with Fred Darwin, the former executive director of the Guided Missile Committee for the DoD's R&D Board from 1949 to 1954. Darwin listed these names as involved in a special committee on flying saucers at the highest level: Dr. Vannevar Bush, Dr. Lloyd Burkner, Dr. Robert F. Reinhardt, Dr. Eric A. Walker, Dr. John von Neumann, and one, Dr. Carl T. Compton.

• 23:25Jesse Michels?

  Finally, when government transparency researcher John Greenwald used the Freedom of Information Act to retrieve Compton's records, he received a reply back in April of 2014: "Records which may have been responsive to your request were destroyed, August 30, 2006."

• 23:45Jesse Michels?

  Why would the FBI destroy a file on an innocent university professor? And why would they have a file on him in the first place? Those are good questions. And how did little Harold Malmgrimm somehow end up holding a paint bucket at Carl Compton's house a couple of years after Harold had written to the Atomic Energy Commission wanting to learn more about the American nuclear program? That might be an even better question.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Well, and he had gone on to work with Tom Schelling, who was father of game theory.

• 24:17Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 24:18Speaker 05

  Application to conflict resolution across many different things, but nuclear. And working with many Nobel Prize winners, including Sir John Hicks at Oxford. And so I think when Kennedy came in, he knew some of the Nobel Prize winners, and he asked them, "Who's your brightest kid?" And dad's name just kept showing up on the list.

• 24:44Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. So then, OK, what happens? So you're recognized by Carl Compton. You have this correspondence with the Atomic Energy Commission. How do you end up from that situation to the Situation Room during the Cuban Missile Crisis as the youngest person in the room?

• 25:02Speaker 03

  I'm still finding it really interesting how that happened. And, you know, I'm still a huge athlete and a really top student. I was ranked as first along with another person who later became chief justice of the Arkansas State Supreme Court. I had moved from physics to economics because I thought, "My parents need help, and I get older, and I need to do something that makes money." Economics sounds like money. So I got a grant from Yale to go somewhere, and I wanted to go to Oxford. It's a dream.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  And I went there, and I really fell in love with it. I didn't really study anything specifically. I went to everything. And then I met a lady there who was American. And those things happened. I got pretty attached. Then I came back from after my one-year grant to Harvard. And after I was finally running through the first term, Mr. George Bundy, who was then Dean, had me in. He said, "We hear you're taking you to leave again, go back to Oxford,

• 26:30Speaker 03

  but we want to offer you something special. We'll give you three years."

• 26:40Speaker 03

  All expenses, including summer. And all you gotta do is write a book. You don't have to attend any classes. If you write the book, we'll almost certainly publish it, and that will be your PhD.

• 26:53Speaker 05

  And this is at Harvard?

• 26:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. So... That's a great deal. Yeah. He said it was a great, he said it was a great deal. And I said, "Yeah, but..." My brain was somewhere flattered by this girl. But also, Artest offered me, they said, "Just come here, but we'll take care of you. You can do your PhD here." And so I did that. Married that girl, was...

• 27:23Speaker 05

  My mom.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  And, you know, there's always an element of frailty in unexpected ways. And particularly in my males. But at Artest, so John Hurst decided, well, he and his wife invited me to dinner. And she explained, she was a public finance expert. So she decided, explained to me, her husband felt I was an original thinker and that they only come along once every 25, 30, 40 years. She said, "At Yale, you went deep into mathematical economics."

• 28:10Speaker 03

  So I told my husband that you gotta convince this young man to just dump all that mathematics in a storage shed and start working more fundamentally at behavioral economics. And he did. I remember the first paper I gave him...

• 28:39Speaker 03

  Was really a moment of insight. I gave him this paper, nine pages roughly, full of math. And he said, "This looks very interesting. Come back next week after I've read it." Came back next week. He said, "Don't sit here in the student reception room. Come into my inner chambers. Sit down here by the fire." I thought, "Is this bad or good?" And I began to inflate. He really thinks I'm good. He said, "But you know, it took me an entire week to find it out. How many people of my caliber do you think in your lifetime are going to spend three or four

• 29:23Speaker 03

  days of their time trying to understand you?" He said, "I think this is not the way to make progress." So he said, "It's near the end of term. I want you to go get a hold of a big amount of Gibbons' Decline and Fall, which is in several volumes, and read everything you can before the vacation period is over."

• 29:51Jesse Michels?

  The Decline and Fall of around, by Gibbons.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  So I came back. He said, "What have you learned?" I said, "I only got to something, a chapter or whatever." And he said, "That's not bad. The reason I want you to read that at a dead run is because you have to know how it was written. Gibbons didn't do it brick by brick. He wrote it at a dead run from his mind and said, 'You gotta learn to do that. You have plenty to say. You know how to say it. So write it that way. Don't stop to see if you can fit it to some model.'"

• 30:39Speaker 03

  And so we had a marvelous experience. And then soon afterwards, he said, "There are people you should meet." So some of the best people at Cambridge came to see me, famous names. And then he said, "Hire, Friedrich von Hirsch. I persuaded him to come to Oxford and meet you." So he came, I spent time with him.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  For me, it wasn't big, I knew who he was, he was very impressive.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  And then on another occasion, there had been a big debate

• 31:26Speaker 03

  in the nineteen twenties, going to the theories between Ludwig von Mises, on behalf of the Austrian capitalism economists in, I mean, the central planner.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  The opposite from von Mises was Oskar Langen. Oskar Langen came to Austria. They had dinner with me. We had a fight.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  I said, centralization automatically degrades itself because you restrict everybody from innovation, adaptation. Once you do that, there is no change.

• 32:09Jesse Michels?

  So you would be more on the Austrian school side?

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 32:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay. I am too.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, well.

• 32:17Jesse Michels?

  Although I'm far inferior.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  I'm still the same, I'm totally convinced that China will collapse because of over-centralization. Anyway.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  By the way, in the nineteen eighties, I was in China at some kind of a SRI

• 32:39Speaker 03

  meeting.

• 32:39Jesse Michels?

  Stanford Research Institute?

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. And they invited me along. And the senior Chinese, very interesting, this is years later, said, can we have dinner with you alone? No, okay, why not? So, three of the most senior economic officials. We had a long dinner. We knew about your work on centralization. Really? How do you know about? We had your thesis translated. And we talked to Oskar Langen and some other people. We had an argument.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  I said, over-centralization will bring you destruction, it's impossible. It's too big to manage. Anyway. So going back to Austria.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  I finished up there and there was a bidding war like an NBA or National Football League bidding undergraduates. So MIT and Stanford and Harvard and some others, Princeton, offered me a post. And Cornell said, we'll trump the others. We'll offer you a new chair just endowed now. So you can bypass the normal process of seven years from assistant professor and associate professor or mentorship.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  You can start at the top. So I said, okay, I'll accept. And I came to Cornell with Pippa's mother. Pippa was born in May of that year. And we were living in the house of Nabokov, the Russian author. Wow. He was on leave and I leased from him. In Ithaca, New York?

• 34:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  Wow. Yeah, it was an adventure and he was something impressive. I mean, all these fortunate developments happened in my life. Anyway.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  By the way, these also became clues for me later. Because I realized Nabokov was said to be a CIA asset.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  Really?

• 35:16Speaker 05

  And was used to help use literature as a means of propaganda. And, you know, there are lots of stories about the intelligence agencies using Dr. Zhivago as a medium for fomenting opposition within the Soviet Union. And so I was kind of like, how the heck do we end up in Nabokov's house?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 35:42Speaker 05

  And maybe the answer was that, you know, there was already at that time an intelligence world that, you know, in later years, because of Dad's work in nuclear negotiations, that again, maybe he'd been kind of identified early on. But I would love for you, Dad, to just dive into, you are in the Situation Room. You are down to the last three hours before you all think that you're hitting the nuclear go button. And can you just describe what was it like in that moment? And how did you avert the nuclear crisis?

• 36:26Speaker 02

  A strict quarantine on all offensive military equipment, undershipment to Cuba, is being initiated.

• 36:33Speaker 03

  I was a point in the years in between McNamara and Mr. George Bundy and JFK. I mean, pretty critical job.

• 36:45Jesse Michels?

  McNamara is Secretary of Defense at the time.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so, all right, I'm there, and I'm wondering what I'm going to work on. And suddenly, the Cuban Missile Crisis unfolds. And I get a call.

• 37:03Speaker 03

  And Bob wants you to work directly with a small group in the war room. I said, "What's the war room?" "It's where the generals meet and decide, 'Go, no, go.'" Because they have the weapons, you know, my house doesn't have them.

• 37:23Jesse Michels?

  So this is Bob McNamara, and he wants you to meet?

• 37:26Speaker 03

  He wants me to be there in that room as his guy. They would know I'm his guy.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  And I said, "Yeah, and they're not going to be eager to hear from this young sport." "Don't tell them what you think should happen. Ask them a lot of questions. Your job is to slow them down. Reduce the heat in the room. Get everybody more calm."

• 37:59Speaker 03

  If you just keep asking questions and make them think, you'll be surprised how far that goes. And it buys us time, takes the pressure off from them. Because there are some people in that group, I didn't realize it was Kurtis and May, they were worried about, who wants to go ahead and punish Russia for even trying? So I get started in that. And after a few days, got used to the group. They get used to me. They didn't ask me to get the coffee.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  They treated me like, okay, we're alone there. And I didn't say anything to them. I didn't talk down to them.

• 38:45Speaker 03

  I asked them, how's your wife today? So it's like, and we got to the last hours, roughly four hours, when JFK told Khrushchev, we put a quarantine around Cuba. If one of your ships breaks through the quarantine, that will be an act of war and we will take action. We didn't specify. And among the generals, there were arguments. What should we do? Do we take out the missiles?

• 39:28Speaker 03

  In human ground, we don't know whether some are armed or not. Do we know that they have the ability to do more than we see?

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Might they start World War III? In order to get a step ahead? This was a time of mutually assured destruction. It was like, really?

• 39:54Speaker 03

  Terrifying in some sense. And so we're in the final hours waiting to see if they were gonna stop or not. And there was communication going on. None of us were privy to it between Hushov and JFK. And there was one additional element the history books have omitted. The Russian ambassador, Dobryin. He arrived that year in Washington. He was unique. He wasn't a typical diplomat. He was a member of the Central Committee in Moscow.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  They sent him to Washington as the highest ranking politician in Moscow. And in that position, he was able to himself talk with the top people in the Central Committee.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  Anyway, in the, in those final hours, agitation level was high. We all sat down after somebody had a coffee break. And one of the senior generals sent a signal. We didn't have cell phones. And he came in, said, I want you to call Mary. Tell her to load the car, get everything ready to go, and drive as fast as you can to Maine to our country place. And then he said, let's resume now, gentlemen.

• 41:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like literally, Mary, take the kids and get out of here, right? Like, we're about to be at the end.

• 41:46Jesse Michels?

  Oh, God.

• 41:47Speaker 05

  And this is the bit, Dad, where it's so important that it's Curtis May, who wants to drop Anouk.

• 41:56Jesse Michels?

  So maybe Dr. Strangelove wasn't so...

• 41:59Speaker 05

  It was based on him.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, but let me finish the story. They, so in the group, I said, gentlemen, I mean, all the thinking of the last, ever since the bomb was dropped in, in Japan. All the thinking is about mutually assured destruction. If we go, we both get obliterated. Does this make any sense to any of us in this room? There must be some degree of action less than that. And they're all saying, yeah, well, we haven't explored that.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  I say, yeah, we don't have any calibration, any idea of small steps. Or ways to convince that we're serious. What I mean, I mean, if we attack Russia, but are we really ready for that? No. Now, if we attack Cuba and Russia thinks it's the first step, that they want to get one step ahead of us by being first actor. Well, that would be bad.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  We can't know what they're thinking, but we have to kind of think about that. Or we may take some step and they fire a little bit at us. And but a little bit makes us pissed off. And then we decide to unload everything. First, LeMay is in this room, saying, my strategic bombers are ready. He know we have all these missiles, but...

• 43:46Jesse Michels?

  His nickname is Bombs Away, LeMay.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  Bombs Away. I have no, I had no idea what a miserable, mean, arrogant guy this was. I mean, I just, there was nothing written aloud about him, other than he was super aggressive, but...

• 44:07Jesse Michels?

  Is he chief of staff of the Air Force at this time?

• 44:10Speaker 03

  Strategic Air Command Department.

• 44:13Jesse Michels?

  Strategic Air Command, okay.

• 44:14Speaker 05

  And it's important that you mention how he says, my guys, we keep setting them up to the point of no return.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I meant to say. That he's saying in the room... To all these other generals and admirals.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  You can't imagine the morale problem I have. Every day I send my boys out there. They reached the point of no return. Where if they keep going, they'll run out of fuel.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  And he said, I have to order them back. He said, the morale is really, they're ready.

• 44:56Jesse Michels?

  He's playing with millions of people's lives to make sure that the morale of his, you know, units are okay.

• 45:03Speaker 08

  Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair must. But I do say no more than 10 to 20 million killed, tops. Depending on the breaks.

• 45:13Jesse Michels?

  That's.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  He said that and every man in the room looked down at them and laughed. They didn't want to eyeball it. You know, like.

• 45:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  I didn't hear that.

• 45:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's like if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all. I mean, he's also, for the context for the audience, he was in charge of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron in Roswell, New Mexico, that was responsible for the bombings in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. And he was in charge of all the firebombing in Germany.

• 45:45Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, his idea of enemy is obliterate them. Anyway, I didn't know what I was up against, but you know, it might have scared me, but it didn't. So I, I said, well, listen, all the rest of us, let's have them play the options. We slowly talk. And then it turned out that we got ruined, the Russians stopped the boats

• 46:15Speaker 03

  at the point of quarantine. And.

• 46:20Speaker 03

  I said, can we agree that we should back off? We should all back off. And Khrushchev said, no way. We've got to teach them a lesson that they're messing with us. They have to have something to remember. We need to, we need some surgical strikes on Russia. It doesn't have to be population oriented, but we need to make it painful. And I said, but that needs us back into, will they think that this is just the beginning of our rebellion? We simply haven't had a discussion. We have no communication channel to deal with that.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  It doesn't make sense. I think it seems to me backing off for now and letting the discussions continue. How do we avoid this being the preference?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  The generals agreed. And the one that had the cold, he said, why push the button? His agent came and said, call Mary back. Tell her, I know this is hard.

• 47:34Speaker 05

  But you also made a suggestion that if you hit Moscow, there wouldn't be anybody to negotiate with. And further, if you let it leak to the Russians that you wouldn't hit Moscow, maybe they wouldn't hit Washington. And everybody in the room just loved that.

• 47:56Jesse Michels?

  And if I remember correctly, you kind of rhetorically backed them into a corner where you say, what would be your prime target first? And then they say Moscow. And then you say, oh, if it was Moscow, then you can't talk to anybody in Moscow. There's nobody to negotiate with.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Let's move into them. Because I said, it's madness. You don't, if you're going to start something and you need to stop, in that system, there's only one point of decision. If you hit Moscow, there's no one to talk to.

• 48:27Jesse Michels?

  And then that's at that point where LeMay storms out and gets all angry. Is that, is that right?

• 48:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, he literally got up.

• 48:37Speaker 03

  Slam these papers down. I can't, I'm not going, I refuse to run with this.

• 48:43Speaker 00

  That man is really maniac, but I have to tell you, I did not buckle.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  No, I know you didn't.

• 48:55Speaker 03

  No, he had, by the way, just before that, raised the warning level to DEFCON 2. Hmm. And it was not approved by the president. Really? He did it. Unapproved, he raised the warning level to DEFCON 2? He seemed to have that power, I mean, we were surprised, but anyway, he may have had that power. Interesting. Anyway, I mean, when I look back and think, Jesus, you know, I stood in the way of this historic bigger bomb. I mean, he could have stood up and tried to beat me up. I mean, he's that kind of person. When he stormed out, it was a relief to the whole group.

• 49:42Speaker 03

  But it was the first in a series of evident clashes between him and JFK. It was personal. Somehow, it all radiated, this is not about Russians only. Something, something was going on in his head. We learned later about some of the other things, but.

• 50:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, and you had the Bay of Pigs before that as well.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:09Jesse Michels?

  Which is this crucial kind of juncture where, you know, I think actually Eisenhower kind of left his, his second term slightly skeptical of Dulles. I think initially he was willing to kind of go along with his plans. And JFK didn't quite know what to think. And after the Bay of Pigs, it was really this clear rupture where you had the kind of CIA sort of, you know, quote unquote, deep state. And they had sort of their own plans and they really wanted to oust Castro and Guevara. And then you had JFK and he felt like this whole thing was just. And they send these Cuban exiles in there to kind of create this revolution, but it's kind of half done and the exiles are actually left kind of isolated.

• 50:54Jesse Michels?

  Doesn't quite work out. And then you have this rift where you have people like Curtis LeMay and Allen Dulles in complete loggerheads with JFK. JFK gets angry, says, "I want to scatter the CIA to the winds."

• 51:05Speaker 07

  The president's saying he's going to bring the CIA into a thousand pieces.

• 51:10Jesse Michels?

  Is that roughly right?

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. So this was the president, this nuttarian, to what became a clash over how do we respond when we have an excuse? And Curtis LeMay said, "At least let me send my bombers after some strategic facilities of the Russians." But how do you sort out, for the Russians' point of view, bombers coming at us? We don't know their trajectory, we can't study that. It's not like a missile, you know, once it's fired, you know where it's going.

• 51:55Speaker 03

  So, high risk. And I said, "This doesn't make sense." So everybody agreed except Curtis LeMay, and he blew up when he thought he was going to dominate. Well, I mean, I didn't know that this was a moment of history and that somehow my arguments run, but on the other hand, I thought, "This is why Maxima sent me down here."

• 52:25Jesse Michels?

  Well, that seems, it's such an act of genius to him on his part to call you in as a 27-year-old, to stagnate these sort of more aggressive, you know, guys like Curtis LeMay. And you think of the way Robert McNamara is depicted in like, you know, Errol Morris' Fog of War, just as an example, and he's seen as this sort of war monger. And this, you know, cuts completely against that.

• 52:48Speaker 09

  McNamara, do you mean to say that instead of killing 100,000, burning 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night, we should have burned to death a lesser number or none? And then had our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and been slaughtered in the tens of thousands? Is that what you're proposing?

• 53:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Now his instructions. He said, "These guys are coming in that room and some of them have sidearms that are fully loaded with the safety off."

• 53:19Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  They're hot to go. He said, "Your task is to lower the temperature."

• 53:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, wow.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  And see if you can't stretch it out and give us time to work something out.

• 53:34Jesse Michels?

  What foresight on his part.

• 53:46Speaker 10

  Johnston Island was the center of launch and experimental activity for the 1962 high-altitude weapon effects testing termed Operation Fishbowl.

• 54:00Jesse Michels?

  Running from April to October of 1962, Operation Dominic was a classified American program conducting 31 nuclear test explosions in the Marshall Islands. These tests were designed to study the effects of nuclear detonations in high altitudes, in space and near space. One of these tests, Starfish Prime, created an electromagnetic pulse that extended over 1,400 kilometers, knocked out streetlights, triggered burglar alarms, and caused electrical surges in nearby Hawaii. It also produced an artificial aurora visible from Hawaii to New Zealand, and it even created

• 54:42Jesse Michels?

  a man-made radiation belt similar to the Van Allen belt that destroyed multiple satellites. The last few tests of this series were the Blue Gill tests, which involved a unique X-ray-based missile defense system, and Harold was put in charge of doing all of the cost assessments for this test.

• 55:04Jesse Michels?

  Tell us about the Blue Gill Triple Prime test.

• 55:07Speaker 03

  Well, I arrived in Washington summer of 62. In 61, there were two high-level tests.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  An incoming missile and an interceptor fired up to see if they could stop it. Those two tests failed. Summer of 62, I arrived and first I'm in the middle of this missile crisis. And then before it's barely over, hell, would you set up a small group that will give you the people to devise the outlines of an anti-missile system so that we can start anticipating for the future? I said, "Yeah, that's something that DARPA should do with a bastion."

• 56:05Speaker 03

  And they said, "No, no, what we want is a concise, back of the envelope calculation. What should be the elements of it? What would it cost? And how much would it cost for the enemy to offset it?" And I said, "Okay, I'm taking on it." And I got that assignment. I'm thinking, "Holy cow, this is huge." And they gave me these people in the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Reconnaissance Evaluation Group. Who am I talking to, these guys?

• 56:46Jesse Michels?

  Missile defense was a major priority for the United States in the heart of the Cuban Missile Crisis. While American offensive nuclear capabilities were ahead of the Soviets, the U.S. still didn't have precise ways of defending against a nuclear attack. But there were some novel ideas in missile defense at the time. In 1961, the RAND Corporation wrote a report called "Some New Considerations Concerning the Nuclear Test Ban", which highlighted the susceptibility of the U.S. ICBM reentry vehicles to high-energy X-rays.

• 57:22Speaker 11

  To say this is a piece of steel and it's in outer space, if you impinge high-energy X-rays on this side, then what that does is blows chunks off the inside at hypersonic speeds.

• 57:36Jesse Michels?

  This novel insight made its way into the Operation Dominic Marshall Islands tests. Here's where it gets interesting. These X-ray emissions could also take out surrounding UFOs.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  So I just got that going. And test number three in that series in October was a success. If I remember the days, it was while we were busy with Cuba.

• 58:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, actually, the Blue Gill Triple Prime. So it was October of 1962, right?

• 58:10Speaker 03

  So I get a report because I'm in charge of this new project. The same report that went to JFK. Now, you can assume, JFK, it was read by George Bundy, that's his job. I knew it must have been read by MacArthur and John McNorton, the General Counsel, they're all interactive. And almost certainly LBJ because he's Vice President. Anyway, lo and behold, they dashed down.

• 58:52Speaker 03

  I said, wait a minute, I'm puzzled here. In the report you've given me, you have videos of taking down this incoming missile with a specially enhanced X-ray projection system. But when you did that, you noticed that there had been some object that had appeared on the screen and joined and tagged along, following the incoming missile down.

• 59:30Speaker 05

  By the way, can I just interject? Because for me, and I kind of got my dad a little up to speed on the whole, why is Congress pursuing non-human intelligence? Why are they passing whistleblower legislation? And so when we started to talk about this, and so he says, there's this orb around the missile.

• 59:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 05

  And I'm like, so, didn't you think that was weird? And I realized that actually... I think that the people of that generation were so accustomed to seeing them that they didn't, they knew it wasn't Russian. They knew it wasn't, in those days, it was never going to be Chinese. They knew it wasn't a threat. So Dad said, "Yeah, we called it a tag along." What? A tag along. Like, didn't you ask what it was? And, and he sort of replied in such a way that I realized, nobody asked any questions at that time. And they were probably encouraged not to ask any questions.

• 1:00:33Speaker 03

  When I saw this object, which I called a tag along.

• 1:00:40Jesse Michels?

  That's what you would call them, tag alongs. Wow.

• 1:00:43Speaker 03

  What else?

• 1:00:45Jesse Michels?

  So that it's so casual that you just call them tag alongs?

• 1:00:47Speaker 05

  I think they were so inured to seeing them, they were like, "Yeah, it was a tag along."

• 1:00:53Jesse Michels?

  The UFO nuclear connection was a complete, open secret among top military brass in the 50s and 60s. In a 1952 Look magazine article titled "The Hunt for the Flying Saucer," chief UFO investigator for the Air Force, Captain Edward J. Rupelp, is quoted saying that many of the sightings reported had originated at one atomic weapons-related site or another, all around the country. In fact, while the Operation Dominic tests were going on in 1962, an AVCO Mk IV re-entry vehicle attached to an Atlas 8F missile was being tested at Cape Canaveral in the Atlantic Missile Range in September.

• 1:01:36Jesse Michels?

  This is the footage that was taken from that test. At the 4 minute and 40 second mark in the video, an object appears to phase itself into existence alongside the re-entry vehicle, which is traveling at 20,000 feet per second, or Mach 18. The official US Air Force-NASA post-flight report even states that the object's "origin" or identification could not be determined.

• 1:02:14Jesse Michels?

  The very next month after this Atlas test at Cape Canaveral, the Atomic Energy Commission conducted the Blue Gill Triple Prime Test in October of 1962 in the Marshall Islands. The point is, this was the backdrop for the Blue Gill tests, one in which the military, scientific, and political elite in America were well aware of the connection between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

• 1:02:39Speaker 03

  Anyway, when the incoming missile reacted to this blast of X-ray, at that moment, the report said this appeared to knock down this device, they called it. I said, "The tiger alarm." And so I got really, I didn't react with shock. I thought, "Let's find out what that was." And was there a recovery? Yes, the Navy had recovered a shell. Tell me about it.

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  "Oh, we can't do that. You have need to know about the incoming missile and the test, but not about the tiger alarm. Why not?"

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  And just to be clear, you've got all the Q clarances, right? Not some of them, you've got all the Q clarances.

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 05

  And they say, "No, you don't need to know."

• 1:03:45Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 1:03:45Speaker 03

  Well, I had a blanket, besides top secret and all that stuff. I had presidential experience for the highest level stuff that comes with a president. I mean, I had been given everything, but especially that, they gave me a blanket Q clearance. Q was for anything nuclear weapons. Right of a separate, because that was managed by the Atomic Energy Commission.

• 1:04:15Jesse Michels?

  That was in law separate. But it's so interesting because you hear that UFO secrecy was sort of bound up in atomic secrecy in the Atomic Energy Commission.

• 1:04:27Speaker 12

  The guys that were involved in Manhattan were overlaying the same ecosystem of secrecy and some of the same ways to protect stuff that they were protecting our nuclear secrets.

• 1:04:38Jesse Michels?

  And you don't even have access to the UFO stuff with all of your Q clearances.

• 1:04:46Jesse Michels?

  Two KC-135 aircrafts in proximity of the test were gathering footage.

• 1:04:53Jesse Michels?

  Australian intelligence analyst Geoffrey Crouchesank, who's done the most in-depth analysis of this test, calls these two pieces of footage Kettle One and Kettle Two.

• 1:05:03Speaker 11

  A bright fiery object tumbles out from within the nuclear fireball.

• 1:05:10Speaker 13

  You believe that that is some kind of craft?

• 1:05:15Speaker 11

  Just like the one that was following the Atlas 8F test, but this time it was a real warhead.

• 1:05:22Jesse Michels?

  You can see clearly from the Kettle One footage of the nuclear blast, an unidentified flying object tumble out of the nuclear fireball.

• 1:05:33Jesse Michels?

  The official report written about this test at the time was written by the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. The report tries to explain the presence of this second thermal source in the footage. Quote-unquote, "There is no evidence to indicate that even the closest pod was ever immersed in the fireball, so it definitely wasn't one of the instrumentation pods on the missile."

• 1:05:57Jesse Michels?

  If that's not weird enough, these videos were declassified to the public in 1998. At the declassification review, the Defense Special Weapons Agency, led by Dr. Byron L. Ristvett, applied a large white triangle to the footage, sanitizing it, right where you can see the object tumbling out of the plume in the Kettle One footage.

• 1:06:18Speaker 11

  There's well-known animosity between Los Alamos and Lawrence Livermore Labs. Lawrence Livermore ran one aircraft, Los Alamos ran the other.

• 1:06:28Speaker 11

  The reason why the Kettle One footage was declassified and Kettle Two wasn't was simply a personal difference in what should remain classified and what shouldn't.

• 1:06:39Jesse Michels?

  Then, on October 21st, 2023, when Geoffrey Cruikshank sent a mandatory declassification review request to the Department of Energy, asking them to declassify this Kettle Two footage which had been sanitized, the Department of Energy responded, saying that they were unable to locate the footage. They were literally saying they lost the footage of one of their most important high-altitude nuclear tests. And maybe all you need to know is that Blue Gill Triple Prime is the only one of the Operation Fishbowl nuclear tests where any portion of the released video is still sanitized and classified to this day.

• 1:07:16Speaker 06

  Sorry, that's classified.

• 1:07:17Jesse Michels?

  And tellingly, look at what happened when a Freedom of Information Act request was sent to the National Nuclear Security Administration, generally, around these 1962 Operation Dominic tests. The exact request was for all records that "mention or relate to" Starfish Prime and any of the following: UFO, AP, UAV, AAV, any acronym used by the Atomic Energy Commission at the time for unidentified flying objects. The National Nuclear Security Administration responded. The letter back, in June of 2022, reads, "It was determined that an additional review of your case by the subject matter expert with jurisdiction regarding responsive records was required."

• 1:08:04Jesse Michels?

  First of all, who are the subject matter experts on UFOs? Second of all, this seems like a tacit admission that there are responsive records that apply to this Freedom of Information Act request that specifically asks for information on UFOs.

• 1:08:19Jesse Michels?

  Finally, we have an eyewitness of the Blue Gill Triple Prime Test who is alive today, a former Navy sailor named David Noble Whitecrow. He's spoken to UFO investigator Richard Dolan, and look at what he told Dolan.

• 1:08:32Speaker 14

  The witness was a man named David. He was part of what was called Operation Dominic. He was aboard a ship called the USS Finch, 19 miles south-southwest of Johnston Island or Johnston Atoll. The date is October 26, 1962. At 9:59 a.m., they launched this missile. Suddenly, he hears on the loudspeaker the voice of the ship's captain saying, "Everyone below deck, other than a few essential personnel," and they're preparing for damage control. After 15 minutes, an officer goes down in there, and he selects about a dozen of these guys, including David. And they're ordered to look directly forward toward the horizon, and they were not allowed

• 1:09:16Speaker 14

  to have any conversation. So after some time, I don't know how long, the officer in charge orders them to look 10 degrees off the starboard bow. So at this point, this is a direct quote from David, I wrote this entire thing down. He said to me, "Lo and behold, what appeared in the sky, what I saw, was a huge cigar-shaped object coming toward us at 10 degrees and about 15 to 20 degrees off the horizon."

• 1:09:53Jesse Michels?

  And what about the most senior official present at Operation Blue Gill Triple Prime? If you're a head honcho and you see a UFO tumble out of the sky, surely you can't just engage in business as usual. Well, the logs of a nearby Navy ship, the USS Summit County, on 26th October 1961, refer to a SOPA, or a senior officer present afloat being on board the ship. That officer was General Alfred Starbird, the Joint Task Force 8 commander of Operation Dominic. He was positioned around 15 nautical miles from surface zero of Blue Gill Triple Prime, which is the closest allowable distance by the Range Safety Officer. William Ogle, the Los Alamos Jade Division Weapons Design Chief, was General Starbird's deputy for Operation Dominic.

• 1:10:38Jesse Michels?

  Ogle writes that General Starbird left Johnston Island at 4 a.m. the night of Operation Blue Gill Triple Prime. Starboard went from the deck of the Summit County ship to taking off on a jet from Johnston Island in under four hours. There were still very important tests to go, but Starboard apparently needed to leave immediately, maybe because of this successful UFO tag-along shoot-down.

• 1:11:03Speaker 03

  What they said is that your project designation was this, you know, anti-bilicity missile. But we didn't anticipate this unidentified object, but it's not part of your designation. So I said, "That's bullshit." So I said, "I need to know what you learned." Now, I'm sure in different words, that's what came out of the White House to the people running the tests, who were under the jurisdiction of the Atomic Energy Commission, under Lawrence

• 1:11:46Speaker 03

  Gees, who was in charge of all this stuff.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  He was head of the Albuquerque Division of the Atomic Energy Commission, but he was running everything that he was, sorry, everything that had to do with Los Alamos and high-level tests.

• 1:12:03Jesse Michels?

  And he's randomly Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather through adoption?

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 1:12:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  It explains a lot. Jeff Bezos talks about in some of his earlier reminiscences to reporters, he spent all his summers with his grandfather.

• 1:12:34Jesse Michels?

  Interesting, really?

• 1:12:35Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. The grandfather had a farm.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  So I'm sure he had several summers of space in this, which is out there.

• 1:12:46Jesse Michels?

  And now he's got Blue Origin. It's so funny, it's just another point in the direction that rocketry is not what it seems.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  Right. So two things happened. I pressed hard.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  You have to let me know what took place.

• 1:13:02Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:03Speaker 03

  So they said, well, for that you have to come down to Los Alamos.

• 1:13:07Jesse Michels?

  You pressed hard with Lawrence Geiss and he said, I want to know?

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  I didn't know with him that I was talking.

• 1:13:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay, but somebody at the Atomic Energy Commission.

• 1:13:15Speaker 03

  I said, you know, I need to know. I'm going to decide what I need to know.

• 1:13:21Speaker 05

  Just to back up, so you go out to Los Alamos. You get briefed. You meet Lawrence Geiss. And like literally a couple of weeks later, suddenly JFK, LBJ, and their teams are going to Los Alamos. So I asked the question, Dad, how often does a president of the United States go to Los Alamos? And the answer is never. So what was so extraordinary that they all suddenly rush out there? And this is what you have great insight into.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  It was about the tag along. That's what they wanted to know about. They were all fascinated by the test. They were.

• 1:14:03Jesse Michels?

  By the tag along itself? So when you came out two weeks before them, what did you find? What did they tell you?

• 1:14:11Speaker 03

  I met Lawrence Geiss. He said, I have this letter saying that I can brief you. I said, thank you. Because I really, he said, well, the test details are controlled by naval intelligence.

• 1:14:28Speaker 03

  It was interesting. He said, they don't share everything with the Navy Department. They are an autonomous entity. They are most secure than any other intelligence agency.

• 1:14:45Jesse Michels?

  It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s.

• 1:14:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, but he said, just be aware. The mighty CIA is not under fully approved list to circulate.

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  So I can talk about that on another occasion. But anyway.

• 1:15:10Speaker 03

  So I said, well, what am I here to find out? He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down.

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  I'm looking at, you know, the round rock.

• 1:15:29Jesse Michels?

  So you're looking at anomalous material?

• 1:15:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:32Jesse Michels?

  Debris?

• 1:15:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 05

  But debris or images?

• 1:15:36Speaker 03

  Debris.

• 1:15:38Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:15:40Speaker 03

  No, he said handling.

• 1:15:42Jesse Michels?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 1:15:45Speaker 00

  At Los Alamos, I was told by the nurse, she's, yeah, put this stuff in your hands, play with it. She wondered what it feels like.

• 1:15:54Jesse Michels?

  What did it feel like?

• 1:15:58Speaker 00

  It felt weird because it didn't feel anything, we know.

• 1:16:12Jesse Michels?

  What color was it?

• 1:16:14Speaker 00

  The color of something in space.

• 1:16:21Jesse Michels?

  What's the color of something in space?

• 1:16:26Speaker 00

  Depends on the light in the room or the light for the camera.

• 1:16:31Jesse Michels?

  Was it, was it heavy?

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, the objects were like, I mean, the types of objects, I didn't put them down, they were in those. It's heavy.

• 1:16:55Jesse Michels?

  If you had been there without knowing how it was retrieved, would you think that it was at all different than like random rocks?

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  If you didn't know how it was retrieved, it was, eh, no. But he said, no, this is some of, he said, I have it on my desk just to, you know, as an example. I mean, he didn't say for visitors, but, I mean, whatever reason he had it there.

• 1:17:23Jesse Michels?

  Did it, was it emitting alpha, beta, gamma radiation, anything like that?

• 1:17:28Speaker 03

  I don't know, I don't know if he, he must have known it was safe. I mean, had all this instrumentation around. Anyway.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  So I, you know, I just, what have we learned? Because it doesn't pertain to designing a missile system. What kinds of things can interfere with it? Or might emulate? We just need to know more. Who else is studying this? We need to know about knowledge in other quarters, China, or wherever, Russia. We feared Russia to science more than China at that time. Anyway.

• 1:18:22Speaker 03

  He explained, though, that this is not the first case. Other unidentified objects or phenomena. There's a history. Now, he didn't go into the history with me. He just said, "Do your research." I said, "So you're telling me, anyway, but the Navy says I can't know?" "Yes." He said, "Yes, but probably you saw the original."

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  My bet is that that part of the test, the video, will have been scrubbed. Which was, but...

• 1:19:09Speaker 15

  Yeah.

• 1:19:11Speaker 03

  And he repeated, "That's Navy intelligence. They're another, they live in their own world. Sometimes they think they're even more powerful than we are, but..."

• 1:19:21Jesse Michels?

  Do they still live in their own world?

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:19:26Speaker 05

  That's what everybody says.

• 1:19:29Jesse Michels?

  There are a few key details of this story that fill in some gaps that Harold relayed to Pippa before he passed.

• 1:19:41Jesse Michels?

  Malmgren confirmed that the entire BlueGill shoot-down was an attempt to down a UFO. Malmgren explicitly told this to Pippa, his daughter, and Geoffrey Cruikshank. He also told this to Senate Intelligence staffer Kirk McConnell, who I interviewed.

• 1:19:58Speaker 13

  What Malmgren reported, that he'd been told directly by Bissell, is that we downed a UFO that was closely monitoring that test, and it tumbled into the ocean, and that the Navy picked it up.

• 1:20:12Jesse Michels?

  So the American military knew they could bait UFOs with nukes, and destabilize their flight paths with EMPs. See, EMPs disrupt local magnetic fields. It would even locally disrupt the magnetosphere of the Earth.

• 1:20:30Jesse Michels?

  If you're flying at incredible speeds in a UFO, you probably need to use some form of quantum sensing. This would allow you to use the magnetosphere of the Earth in order to navigate. Birds even do this. They use avian cryptochromes to quantum sense the magnetic field of the Earth and navigate home. This form of precision sensing would be necessary in order to navigate a UFO. So when you disrupt the local magnetic field, you could cause a UFO to spin out, lose control, and drop out of the air. Also, UFO propulsion likely requires megavolt-range electricity, an extremely strong electric field strength over long periods of time, which would require a power source that far surpasses traditional fuel or batteries.

• 1:21:14Jesse Michels?

  I think UFOs have a nuclear propulsion source. If the X-ray-induced shockwave from the BlueGill payload would disrupt the plutonium pit of an incoming nuclear warhead, it would also probably disrupt the power source of a UFO.

• 1:21:32Jesse Michels?

  The second missing detail here is that when Harold was holding the UFO pieces Lawrence Geis had given him, they seemed to telepathically communicate with him. He heard words in his head when he felt the pieces. This is a very common trope in UFO world when it comes to people handling material firsthand. Malmgren forgot the exact words, but he felt like they were important, and that the material may have implanted ideas in his subconscious. He also apparently thought that this was a test that Lawrence Geis had given him. He wanted to see if Harold would have this mental reaction to the pieces. Harold apparently passed. Once Harold passed Lawrence Geis's test and realized there was far more to this tag-along UFO phenomenon than met the eye, Malmgren had clearly graduated from his role

• 1:22:17Jesse Michels?

  as the missile cost assessment guy. He needed to get fully read in. That's when he received a full briefing on otherworldly technologies by Richard Bissell.

• 1:22:32Jesse Michels?

  Who is Richard Bissell?

• 1:22:35Speaker 03

  Okay, so a few months after this series of episodes, Missile Crisis, Los Alamos, Richard Bissell called me up and said, "I'd like to spend some time talking to you. Maybe Friday afternoons after work would be good." I said, "Sure." I knew who he was. He was Deputy Director of CIA, and he was in the news a lot because he had been the one who helped George W. develop the U-2.

• 1:23:21Jesse Michels?

  And Area 51 at the time was an atomic testing site, and he thought it'd be a good idea to test the U-2 basically right next door.

• 1:23:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, Bissell, I knew he was at the center of all the scientific technology stuff. I didn't know at that time, his ill fortune was that he was in charge of the invade Cuba, Bay of Pigs operation too. Anyway, I knew he was somebody...

• 1:23:51Speaker 03

  Consider the scope of knowledge. And obviously, strong enough to run a big part of the empire of CIA. So I sat down, brought a bottle of whiskey out and said, "We don't have to drink all of it." He said, "I've talked to everyone around you. You were one of the best kids, but I was told you were the youngest because you came in a little bit after the others, and also that most of them are four or five years older.

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  But you were the star in terms of agility and ability to work with the top level of people without friction. And otherwise, you were the obnoxious, you know, smart ass." So he said, "You're almost certainly on a curve where you continue to be at that level. So there are things you need to know." And then he went into quite a bit, but it was not only about what we still were calling

• 1:25:13Speaker 03

  UFOs at that time, but it was about CIA operations worldwide, the complexity. To times when the president and CIA were not working in concert. But it happens when you have a big system like that, it develops a lack of its own.

• 1:25:44Jesse Michels?

  What did he say about UFOs and other world technology? And then what did he say about CIA's, the global nature of their operation?

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  Well, it all went down simply to they were opposed to anything which threatened their control.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  And these unidentified UFOs, we didn't have the UAP board yet. They presented forces that were beyond CIA's knowledge or control. And they interfered, perhaps, with what CIA was doing with private industry. There was a lot of interaction between Lockheed Martin and CIA.

• 1:26:37Jesse Michels?

  They would show up around specific atomic testing or around specific technology development?

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  Many types of technology development. I mean.

• 1:26:50Jesse Michels?

  So it's almost like the UFOs are more, it's not just the atomic connection. They're generically attracted to the tip of the spear as far as tech development.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  That's at the heart of it.

• 1:27:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, which is, if you read The Three-Body Problem by, you know, this amazing Chinese science fiction trilogy.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  I saw the movie.

• 1:27:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it seems like something like that is almost the case, according to Richard Bisson. Wow.

• 1:27:17Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:27:18Jesse Michels?

  And so what does he say? So he briefs you on, quote unquote, "other world technologies." That, to me, belies almost a human knowledge of these technologies, not just like these things are randomly showing up when we're making advanced technology.

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  And he's like, "This is real. These phenomena, we don't know these phenomena. Also, we don't know what the Russians and Chinese and anyone else knows. That itself is threatening." No, at that time, China was not as threatening to us.

• 1:28:02Speaker 03

  As Russia. We always overrated Russia, in my judgment. And we underrated the Chinese obsession to focus in on something very specific, which was the technology race. So, but anyway. It just reminded me to know that there are all these conflicting forces of power in

• 1:28:40Speaker 03

  play, and that they had influence on leadership in many countries, not just Washington. And it tends to run deep into local politics, depending on where the interests were. Now, he didn't mention Arkansas, but when I reflect back, it probably was on his mind.

• 1:29:13Speaker 08

  Why am I not on the front page of the paper at Ryan Airport or any other airport with a load of dope, with a load of guns?

• 1:29:28Jesse Michels?

  Did Richard Bissell know what was going on all along? That the Blue Gill test was actually always intended to be a directed energy-based UFO shoot-down? Well, tellingly, Harold told Pippa on his deathbed and off-air that the CIA and Atomic Energy Commission got the very idea of shooting down UFOs with directed energy from an extraterrestrial being that survived the Roswell crash in 1947.

• 1:30:02Jesse Michels?

  This being was apparently the sole survivor of that crash. Harold even told Pippa that later in his career, he saw the video of this creature being interviewed.

• 1:30:16Jesse Michels?

  And there's a direct link between the Blue Gill Triple Prime Tests and Star Wars, or the Strategic Defense Initiative that later took place in the 80s. You see, the Blue Gill Triple Prime Tests inspired Edward Teller's X-ray-based Excalibur designs, which formed the basis of Reagan's Strategic Defense Initiative, popularly known as Star Wars. Star Wars involved a massive network of directed energy weapons, or missile defense. It also involved satellite tracking, an immaculate constellation, if you will, for UFO shoot-downs and tracking. This, of course, begs the question: was Star Wars always dual-use and intended for shooting down and quarantining UAP? And if these very concepts

• 1:30:59Jesse Michels?

  came from the sole surviving being from the Roswell crash, it begs the very important question: are we involved in some sort of bizarre extraterrestrial proxy war? Ultimately, one can only speculate. But it is important to note that before he briefed Malmgren, Richard Bissell had to have known about all of this. Remember, at the time, he was Deputy Director of Plans for the entire CIA. And he would go on to become Deputy Director for the entire organization, its number two. So he was likely well-aware of this interview of the surviving being at Roswell.

• 1:31:38Jesse Michels?

  Bissell also founded Area 51 in 1955, and he'd strategically placed it at the Nevada Test Site, where hundreds of atomic tests were occurring in the early 50s.

• 1:31:50Jesse Michels?

  So he had to have known about the UFO nuclear connection. Bissell likely also understood the secret UFO-related intentions of the Blue Gill Tests all along.

• 1:32:07Jesse Michels?

  But Harold goes deeper. He implies that Bissell knows about this other layer of reality, a form of sort of extraterrestrial exopolitics that needed to be managed by elements of the US government for decades. Do you think Richard Bissell sort of knew that you were you were sort of an heir to him in sort of a more like spiritual sense or something?

• 1:32:33Speaker 00

  I think he was very spiritual. And he was looking for someone who was somehow connected.

• 1:32:48Jesse Michels?

  Connected to what?

• 1:32:51Speaker 00

  Whatever was happening with other worldly forces.

• 1:33:01Jesse Michels?

  Have you looked have you looked for people like that?

• 1:33:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've read about them all the time.

• 1:33:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, what else did Richard Bissell tell you?

• 1:33:24Speaker 03

  He said this didn't start last week. This has been going on.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  He mentioned that in 1933 in Magenta.

• 1:33:34Jesse Michels?

  He did?

• 1:33:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:33:35Jesse Michels?

  Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta crash?

• 1:33:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:33:39Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Exactly. That is such corroboration because that is a highly conflicted, you know, account.

• 1:33:47Speaker 12

  1933 was the first recovery in Europe, in Magenta, Italy.

• 1:33:51Jesse Michels?

  I fully trust David Grush, but that's amazing that there's some corroboration from back then.

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  He mentioned it.

• 1:33:57Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:33:59Speaker 12

  Italian government moved it to a secure airbase in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And, you know, the Popeye's, the 12 backchanneled that. So the Vatican was involved. Yeah, and told the Americans what the Italians had, and we ended up scooping it.

• 1:34:16Speaker 03

  So he said this, yeah, he said this did not begin in

• 1:34:22Speaker 03

  the, I need to know the background. How did it end up that Truman transferred that?

• 1:34:31Speaker 03

  That object from Italy. The steps getting there was arranged by Alan Dulles.

• 1:34:42Speaker 03

  But that went back to what Tim Pippin mentioned. And he said the steps that Alan Dulles helped with the crash retrieval.

• 1:34:49Speaker 05

  And remember Alan Dulles and so John Foster Dulles and Alan Dulles are twins.

• 1:34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:56Speaker 05

  And John Foster Dulles is running the OSS, the precursor to US intelligence, out of Switzerland. And then I asked, I said, Dad, why was he running it out of Switzerland? How the heck does that happen? And he said, well, everybody knew that he did it deliberately so that he would be beyond the reach of US law.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  Let me explain. After all this, all these events a few years back, when I was still an official

• 1:35:32Speaker 03

  in the office of the Trade Representative, well, I was the principal.

• 1:35:43Speaker 03

  I was invited by, you know, Switzerland doesn't have a president. They, the leader is revolves around the canton of the leaders. But whoever was the leader that year, I visited the government about several matters. And they said, would you like to see the office of Alan Dulles when he lived here? So I said, oh, it'd be fun to name a beautiful apartment overlooking the river. And we got talking. I said, how do you explain why he chose to be here? He said, oh, that's simple.

• 1:36:23Speaker 03

  He told us when he got permission to maintain a very active office here that as long as he was in Switzerland.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  No American law could reach him. It's just something he did that was illegally moral or otherwise in the United States. So he said he was here all the time. And it was to allow him a free hand to do the most terrible things if needed. Okay, that's understandable. He was a creepy guy. Now, going back to 1933. The relationship needs to be uncovered between Angleton's father, Angleton,

• 1:37:22Speaker 03

  and the Knights of Malta. Wow. Because the Knights of Malta said there's more historical connection with the Vatican. And indeed have this special diplomatic status. You know, you can be, you can have an international passport for the Knights. I forget how it must say. It's a something, it's a sovereign state for a handful of people. Yes. But it's always connected with the Vatican.

• 1:37:59Jesse Michels?

  According to multiple accounts, including UFO whistleblower David Grush, a disc-like object measuring roughly 10 to 12 meters in diameter came down near Magenta in Lombardy, Italy in June of 1933.

• 1:38:12Speaker 12

  1933 was the first recovery in Europe.

• 1:38:17Jesse Michels?

  Under Benito Mussolini's fascist regime, a total media blackout was imposed throughout the Stefani news agency. Telegrams threatened severe penalties for any reporters who deviated from a government-ordered cover story attributing the event to a meteor. Despite the censorship, a special investigative body known as Gabanetto, or RS33, formed to study the craft with high-level figures such as Mussolini, Air Marshal Italo Balbo, and Nobel laureate and radio pioneer Marconi, believed to have been involved. Testimonies suggest that the down craft and possibly two recovered bodies were taken to the SIAI Marchetti private aerospace hangars for intensive analysis.

• 1:38:58Jesse Michels?

  This secret research group reportedly drew up a nine-step protocol to manage the Magenta crash and any similar future incidents. The instructions included immediate site containment, arrests of all witnesses, and thorough disinformation campaigns to quell public attention. Sounds very similar to what happened in the United States after Roswell. Marconi, long fascinated by extraterrestrial possibilities, clashed with Mussolini's insistence that the subject must be of terrestrial origin. Some documents and later family confirmations indicate Marconi genuinely believed the craft could be non-human. In the late 1930s, Pope Pius XII became aware of the Magenta retrieval, reportedly fearing

• 1:39:39Jesse Michels?

  that any recovered technology might fall into Nazi hands once Italy allied with Germany. Through discreet channels, the Pope quietly informed the Allies about the craft's existence and storage location. This back-channel intelligence set the stage for the Office of Strategic Services, America's premier wartime intelligence gathering program, and the predecessor to the CIA in World War II, to intervene in northern Italy as the war approached its end. Working under a secret project called McGregor, OSS operatives targeted advanced access technology, including the rumored crashed UFO. By 1945, the Americans had reportedly transferred the Italian UFO to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio for further study.

• 1:40:30Jesse Michels?

  Many of the top Nazi scientists as a part of Operation Paperclip that the Allies had exfiltrated also made their way to Wright-Patterson to work on the Magenta craft. Malta, as a sovereign territory with diplomatic immunity, would be the perfect international guardians of UFO secrecy.

• 1:40:52Jesse Michels?

  Initially, when Harold said the Knights of Malta were deeply embedded in the UFO story, I had no idea what to think. It sounded like a plotline from a Dan Brown or Umberto Eco novel. "Secret society associated with the Vatican and the sovereign state of Malta governs UFO secrecy. Go figure." But not only were Hugh Angleton and James Jesus Angleton Knights of Malta, and remember, James Jesus Angleton seemed to be responsible for a lot of counterintelligence around UFOs that came out from the 50s to the 80s. But the bizarre Knights of Malta UFO connection runs even deeper after further research. Colonel Philip J. Corso, later famous for his claims regarding reverse-engineering alien materials at the Pentagon in his book

• 1:41:34Jesse Michels?

  "The Day After Roswell," served as a high-ranking intelligence officer in Italy during the post-war period. In fact, he was the personal liaison to the future Pope. He was also a Knight of Malta. He was also a main figure in Operation Paperclip and helped create the "rat lines" exfiltrating Nazi scientists and technology. In fact, many Nazi scientists specifically specializing in exotic propulsion made their way to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base after World War II.

• 1:42:06Jesse Michels?

  Perhaps the most powerful general at the time, General Douglas MacArthur, and his whole intelligence staff, Knights of Malta. Many of his staff displayed an unusual interest in the possibility of a "interplanetary war," and they framed alien-related eschatology in the exact same terms Corso did. During a 1955 speech at West Point, General MacArthur told assembled cadets, "The next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the Earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets." Chief OSS member and another CIA founder, Wild Bill Donovan, who journalist Chris Sharp notes was likely not only involved in the Magenta crash retrieval, but in setting up

• 1:42:48Jesse Michels?

  original protocols for UFO crash retrievals, was also a Knight of Malta. Atomic Energy Director turned CIA Director John McConne, later CIA Director Bill Casey, Knights of Malta. Remember that FDR was responsible- responsible for the communications with the Vatican about the crashed Magenta craft. Well, President Roosevelt's Vatican envoy, Myron Taylor, also a knight of Malta. Maybe religious studies professor Diana Walsh Pasulka, who has visited the Vatican archives and speaks with conviction that the Catholic Church knows more than meets the eye about UFOs, isn't so crazy after all. Maybe she's spot on. And look at the group that are supposedly engaging in UFO crash retrievals today. JSOC, or the Joint Special Operations Command.

• 1:43:32Jesse Michels?

  According to journalist Seymour Hersh, one of the modern heads of JSOC, General Stanley McChrystal, and many of the members of JSOC themselves are all knights of Malta.

• 1:43:43Speaker 16

  Does the DEWE currently work with JSOC?

• 1:43:45Speaker 17

  We work with all of the security entities around the federal government.

• 1:43:50Speaker 16

  Do you guys work with JSOC? Yes or no?

• 1:43:53Speaker 17

  Uh, yes, we do.

• 1:43:54Speaker 16

  Okay.

• 1:43:55Jesse Michels?

  There are Templars at the Vatican.

• 1:43:59Speaker 03

  The president do the truth or the myth, whatever, knights of Templars.

• 1:44:08Jesse Michels?

  But there are rumors that the Knights of Malta have something to do with the UFO story as well.

• 1:44:13Speaker 03

  Well, what I'm saying is, yeah, they did, because, because Angleton was there.

• 1:44:19Jesse Michels?

  So, for context for the audience, James Jesus Angleton was sort of one of the original founders of the CIA. Dulles was sort of a mentor to him. He was a skull and bones kid and ends up in Italy and he's kind of this eccentric, debonair, interesting guy, who was also really just good at conniving and lying. And so, Angleton's father, Hugh Angleton, was involved with the Knights of Malta?

• 1:44:46Speaker 03

  He was a member.

• 1:44:48Jesse Michels?

  He was a member. And so, and then, so he's... Wow, so he's involved in the Vatican, which makes it more likely that James Jesus Angleton probably had something to do with the retrieval of that UFO, the Magenta crash, which was kept at the Vatican.

• 1:45:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm speculating now, but no doubt in my mind about my speculation.

• 1:45:08Jesse Michels?

  You're speculating, but there's so many connections. There's even a guy named John Warner IV, who is the grandson of Paul Mellon and the son of Senator John Warner. And he tells this story where he's three martinis and to a dinner or whatever with Paul Mellon. And Paul Mellon recalls the story. Paul Mellon's one of the founders of the CIA, and he's with Alan Dulles doing tech retrieval. And specifically, he says, "I'm in Czechoslovakia, and I'm standing on top of a saucer with Alan Dulles."

• 1:45:37Speaker 18

  And my grandfather said, "Look, you know, we were in a facility, a hangar, and we saw, you know, a German flying disc." And I said, you know, "Oh, is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines?" And he laughed, and he said, "No."

• 1:45:54Jesse Michels?

  Basically implying that it was like this anomalous object. And right there in Czechoslovakia, in modern-day Poland, is this thing called Kommlerstab, where Hans Kommler, the most ruthless Nazi who was doing the most kind of black world technology projects, was rumored to be working on flying saucers. And there's this rumor of this thing called de Glaacka. And so you have the Hugh Angleton connection, but you also have Dulles and Paul Mellon standing on top of this saucer. And when the Magenta object crashed, supposedly, there was this partnership where Mussolini went to Hitler and was like, "I don't really know what to do with this. Is this yours?" And then Hitler said, "No, it's not ours, but we should work on it together. We should collaborate." So there is, there are actually a lot of data points around this.

• 1:46:39Jesse Michels?

  You start to build this picture up.

• 1:46:41Speaker 05

  Well, and the Italians.

• 1:46:42Jesse Michels?

  So Bissell said that, too. That's amazing.

• 1:46:44Speaker 05

  And the Italians, even to this day,

• 1:46:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:46Speaker 05

  are amongst the most innovative in defense technology in the world.

• 1:46:53Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting. So maybe that, either there's some inherent in technology or something.

• 1:46:58Speaker 03

  Let me say, I'll tell you one factoid that is not well-known in America.

• 1:47:06Speaker 03

  When we look at the world, we say the second most important military force is the UK and especially the RAF. But they have really dwindled in importance. And I didn't know this till recently, but I'm somewhat rather actively connected with the military world. I have a book coming out with essays on geosecurity of the last 25 years that's coming up soon.

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  Laser.

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  And anyway, no re-apes in that book. But one of the people introducing the book was the chief of the Italian Air Force. And I said, "That's a little bit odd." And the editor said, "No. In Europe today, the most important air force besides the US is the Italian Air Force." I had no idea.

• 1:48:09Jesse Michels?

  Really? So they might be more advanced than meets the eye.

• 1:48:14Speaker 03

  They're more advanced than the rest of them in Europe.

• 1:48:17Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:48:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was news to me, but you know.

• 1:48:21Jesse Michels?

  I think of Italian, I guess, cars as being fast but unreliable. And wow, the air force.

• 1:48:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:29Speaker 05

  Well, northern Italy has world-class engineering.

• 1:48:33Jesse Michels?

  True.

• 1:48:34Speaker 05

  German-level engineering. And they have it in many fields. And I always thought it was very interesting that after the Second World War, the Germans were prohibited from going into aircraft because the Luftwaffe had been such a threat. And as a result, the Germans specialized in drones. And I got into drone technology about not quite 10 years ago. And the Germans are very strong in that. And I started to also realize how strong Italian engineering. But I think this episode in history is not well, as well-understood as it could be.

• 1:49:16Speaker 05

  And I just wonder, was this part of what drove the decision to create what we now call the Axis? That because the Italians assumed that this super high-tech thing must be German, and that began their dialogue, and as they aligned...

• 1:49:35Speaker 05

  That became The Axis.

• 1:49:37Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:49:37Speaker 05

  And then again, back to George C. Marshall and the team that is basically cleaning up after the end of World War II and their recognition that many people have knowledge of very advanced technologies, they must be brought to the United States. And that Operation Paperclip, period. And again, who's already there? It's all these cast of characters and where have they been based? Italy.

• 1:50:08Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. That's so fascinating.

• 1:50:10Speaker 05

  Again, there's no proof in that, but there's an interesting line of inquiry.

• 1:50:14Jesse Michels?

  But there's so much corroboration. Now we have Richard Bissell to add to the Dulles Paul Mellon story, to add to David Grush's recent testimony. So we are building up this, you know, important corroborative narrative.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  I'm just mentioning in passing, you know, this washing stick I have, it's from an old shop. It's an old, it's, hey, it's hard, but I was told it was Paul Mellon's washing stick.

• 1:50:42Jesse Michels?

  No way. That's so interesting. What do you, how'd you end up with that?

• 1:50:47Speaker 05

  Well, they live in the same part of Virginia.

• 1:50:50Jesse Michels?

  Okay, what?

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  Well, I knew, I didn't know Paul Mellon, but I knew all the people around him.

• 1:50:55Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:50:55Speaker 03

  Including his wife.

• 1:50:58Jesse Michels?

  How, how?

• 1:50:59Speaker 03

  Oh, and his, his personal, I would call him, ran the foxtail for him and ran, took care of the horses and, you know, he had racehorses, everything. That guy became a close pal of mine, so I heard all these stories about Paul Mellon. So I didn't meet Paul Mellon, but I knew more about his life than you would imagine, including all his UFO friends.

• 1:51:25Jesse Michels?

  Oh, gosh.

• 1:51:30Speaker 03

  But I have his washing stick.

• 1:51:32Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting.

• 1:51:33Speaker 05

  Like what?

• 1:51:35Jesse Michels?

  I kind of, I feel like we should put it in the shot or something.

• 1:51:38Speaker 03

  He was sent to me as part of my mission, but I still don't know my purpose.

• 1:51:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. All graphic. Thanks, Pippa. And so what, what, do you think the Knights of Malta play some sort of role?

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:51:52Jesse Michels?

  In UFOs? And what do you think their role is?

• 1:51:57Speaker 03

  Now you're getting to the heart of the residue of that organization that still exists. What form does it take? Well, I have no idea, but they still have the sovereign state identity.

• 1:52:14Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it goes back to the original Templars?

• 1:52:17Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:52:18Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:52:20Speaker 03

  But how did they get the sovereign state? Vatican must have organized it.

• 1:52:25Jesse Michels?

  They seem to have kind of a lot of top-level business leaders and politicians involved in the Knights of Malta.

• 1:52:33Speaker 03

  That's right. So something, yes, I mean, it's a secretive society. I mean, there are all these secret societies. So many things over the years have been attributed to the Council on Foreign Relations.

• 1:52:50Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  I was a member of the Council for, I don't know, 50 years. I dropped out recently because they wanted me to keep sending them large amounts of money. And I thought, yeah, you know, I've done my, I paid my dues. But when you get back to the Council on Foreign Relations and you dig deeper, well, wait a minute, it wasn't really them, it was some of them. Select group. Through Brown Brothers Harriman that set up CIA. You know, the different groups did different things.

• 1:53:29Speaker 03

  And some of the great financial figures were involved with some, but not others. It's not very different from the WEF in Switzerland, a different group.

• 1:53:48Jesse Michels?

  But there's a Council on Foreign Relations Knights of Malta connection?

• 1:53:52Speaker 03

  No, I would say there's some overlapping membership, but no connection. Anyway, the Council on Foreign Relations has been diluted and changed since the days of Second World War and the Cold War. It's now much more diverse and much more...

• 1:54:17Speaker 03

  Defense of who's ever in power in the White House. I don't know what they're gonna do with Trump. But they have been, they've been sort of swept along with progressive Democrats.

• 1:54:33Jesse Michels?

  Right. So this is, you just brought this in. This is Paul Mellon's walking stick that you ended up with.

• 1:54:40Speaker 03

  I can't verify, but that's what I was told.

• 1:54:43Jesse Michels?

  These are the rumors. What, um, does it represent anything? It looks very unique.

• 1:54:48Speaker 03

  Well, he has a lot of power.

• 1:54:52Jesse Michels?

  So that was bestowed upon you. What else, what else did, uh, did Richard Bissell tell you?

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I think I've explained, in essence, there are a multiplicity of powers in play at any moment. And around presidents, they have certain powers, but they are constrained by these other powers. And among them, the intelligence community is very powerful because it has found ways to fund itself and to multiply itself. So you can't look at the budget and say that's what it is. It operates businesses, legitimate and illegitimate.

• 1:55:44Jesse Michels?

  Right. So it's sort of this gangly octopus. It's impossible to really capture.

• 1:55:49Speaker 03

  And so the Russians do this too. And they even do it in overt ways they did with the, um, this group that the leader was assassinated.

• 1:56:07Jesse Michels?

  Prigozhin.

• 1:56:08Speaker 03

  Oh, Wagner, Wagner Group.

• 1:56:09Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Wagner Group. Yeah, Prigozhin. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, they do, that's overt. They do it not overt. The Chinese are everywhere doing all kinds of stuff.

• 1:56:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:22Speaker 03

  Even in Manhattan.

• 1:56:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:24Speaker 03

  So when, when you weigh actions, you have to take into account what you see and what you don't see, the unseen enemies, the... I should have been aware of that when I blurted out some of these comments on UAPs. And I stumbled into controversy. I had no intention of...

• 1:56:46Jesse Michels?

  Have you gotten any backlash? Because you've been saying some remarkable things on Twitter or X.

• 1:56:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I usually get it. So if Dad drops something on Twitter and suddenly my inbox is full, like, full. What people saying, you know, your dad is breaking the internet.

• 1:57:05Jesse Michels?

  But that seems positive. It's mostly positive?

• 1:57:07Speaker 05

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:08Speaker 03

  She calls me from some faraway place, wakes me up in the morning, you see different hours, and, "Dad, you just blew up the internet."

• 1:57:20Speaker 05

  I actually, I called, I said, "Leave you alone for five minutes." Breaking the internet.

• 1:57:26Jesse Michels?

  I love it.

• 1:57:27Speaker 03

  I carefully crafted some backing up language that I was not directly involved with...

• 1:57:38Jesse Michels?

  UAP research. You said, "Read my words carefully."

• 1:57:42Speaker 05

  Nice.

• 1:57:43Speaker 03

  Now, if you read them carefully, I was not, I'm saying it, I was not directed to look at that. It was, but I didn't say that I wasn't aware of it.

• 1:57:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 03

  And I knew that eventually this stuff would come out and say, "Yeah, I knew about that." But I used the words to make it look like I was backing away from speculation, but I didn't do that. The words didn't suggest I was speculating.

• 1:58:14Jesse Michels?

  I think this is an issue sometimes with people who are high up in government, who want to disclose certain things, but don't want to break any sort of relationships they have or oaths they've sworn or clearances they have.

• 1:58:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:28Jesse Michels?

  Where you'll hear David Grush or something, he'll say, "This is open source. This is a personal story," and he'll have to caveat constantly with that. And so if you're an average person, you just immediately, your skeptical trigger goes off. But in fact, he's trying to do you a service and saying, "Look at this. This is open source."

• 1:58:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:58:45Jesse Michels?

  "I just don't want to end up, you know, under the gun here because I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, end up in jail. You're giving your enemies fodder."

• 1:58:53Speaker 05

  The thing to keep in mind, and as in the research I've done too, is what you find is a lot of this cast of characters, including... James Jesus Angleton, who went on to become the key person at the CIA. They all seemed to have been part of General George C. Marshall's team at the end of the Second World War. They're all involved with the Marshall Plan somehow or another, including Kennedy and Forrestal, for a period, are part of that. And so, difficult to prove, but strange that they all seem to be connected to this subject.

• 1:59:36Jesse Michels?

  Well, Forrestal was supposedly on this Majestic Twelve. Who knows how much of the Majestic Twelve is true, but this sort of, you know, elite military and intelligence advisory board for Truman and Eisenhower. And then George Marshall also, there's this thing called the Battle of Los Angeles in 1942, where UFO shows up and like flies down the coast. And George Marshall was briefed to that. And so, very interesting. Okay, so you have, and then the other connections, I think, that are important to make with the Marshall Plan is that was kind of immediately after these tech retrieval programs in Europe. So the Nazis had all this advanced technology and you had TICOM and ASOS.

• 2:00:21Jesse Michels?

  One was, you know, signals intelligence. The other was, you know, atomic intelligence. And it was trying to retrieve their most exotic technology. And if there was anything, you know, involving UFOs there, that would sort of be bound up in it.

• 2:00:33Speaker 03

  One of my closest friends, when I came to Washington, was an attorney named Tom Farmer. And Tom and I played tennis together, you know. But it turned out Tom had been General Counsel of CIA.

• 2:00:55Speaker 05

  And he'd been, again, with the guys doing the Marshall Plan.

• 2:00:58Speaker 03

  Well, I was gonna say, it turned out he was involved in the project called Paperslip, for picking Germans. And the reason why was he was born in Berlin of a father who was a US diplomat, but he spoke German fluently. So, now, it never dawned on me when it was my friend that started asking me about Paperslip, but I learned later that he knew everything. He was, he was one of the people saying yes for him, no for him, you know.

• 2:01:44Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe that advanced technology has benefited from retrieved unidentified aerial objects? So this would be like the Philip Corso Day After Roswell narrative?

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  The answer I would have to give is yes, in two ways. In one way, we have learned that some types of propulsion, for example, exist that we never envisaged, never conceived. The second way is that they have revealed a higher level of knowledge than anything

• 2:02:31Speaker 03

  we have on Earth. And we don't control it. Now, we only recently even wondered where is it coming from? I mean, you know, we got this new telescope looking up, where are they?

• 2:02:52Speaker 03

  But then we have one revelation by the oceanographer the last few days, who says, "They are not China, they are not US, they are not extraterrestrial," meaning they're either here already, under the water, or subterranean. That's where they are.

• 2:03:17Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:03:17Speaker 05

  And then David Gras, he says, talks about, "Is it interdimensional?"

• 2:03:22Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:03:22Speaker 05

  There's suddenly, and one sort of wonders, like, is this semantics? Like, if you ask officially, "Are there extraterrestrials?" The answer is no, because extraterrestrial means off-planet.

• 2:03:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:36Speaker 05

  But it doesn't include if it's interdimensional, if it's ocean-based, if it's a... Are we actually all talking at cross purposes?

• 2:03:46Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's the reason the All Domain Anomalous, you know, Research Office, which is headed up by Kirkpatrick, who has all these sort of, you know, and we should get into the atomic ties to the UFO question. He has all, you know, this whole history in, you know, atomic research, he was at Oak Ridge. And he always rests on, "We have no hard evidence of extraterrestrial life." But of course, you know, you have these anomalous things. You haven't done a proper analysis on them. You don't know what they are. You haven't classified them. And so you just, you use, that's like this straw-manning way of, you know, explaining the thing away. And for an average person who's not really into the topic, you go, "Oh, this official is saying that there's no extraterrestrial..."

• 2:04:24Speaker 05

  It doesn't exist.

• 2:04:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but it's always extraterrestrial. So is there anything else that Richard Bissell told you? I hate to, you know, harp on that one interaction, but it just, it's so fascinating. You have this guy who's number two at the CIA. He set up Area 51. He's briefing you on other world technologies. Does he say anything else?

• 2:04:44Speaker 03

  Well, he didn't admit to or talk about...

• 2:04:52Speaker 03

  Bad things that had happened. He didn't want to get into a discussion about the Bay of Pigs. And he didn't raise incidents where we have overturned governments. Somehow he avoided that stuff. But I think most of it was about if you work at the leadership level, whether you are a leader or a guy to a leader, you've got to keep in play in their minds the conflicting forces.

• 2:05:31Speaker 03

  And a lot of these forces are not on any legal boxes of who has authority over what. You can't do a diagram that is meaningful for the entire US government because a lot of it is other power networks. Well, this Michael Turner, who's been, I mean, he was a linchpin for three companies at least. And, you know, he blocked everything. Suddenly he's, that's very unusual. Someone with that much power, usually you have to buy them off. You give them something else more important.

• 2:06:16Speaker 03

  You promote them. Someone asked me once, what's the most effective way to get rid of a major enemy? I said, you promote them. Give them something more visible where their ego can be pacified. I did it more than once.

• 2:06:37Jesse Michels?

  You don't want the, that's funny. Promoting people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want them licking their wounds. You'd rather have them happy and not focused on whatever they were focused on.

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  I've never been publicly impugnations. But there were times.

• 2:06:56Speaker 03

  Well, I think Pepe had breakfast with one member of the Congress at one time. She told me, Dad, I had breakfast with him and I asked him, "How is it Dad has so much power, but he has no enemies? People in power have so many enemies." And he said, the only thing he would say is, "The rumor is none survived." So whether that's true or not, I cultivated that rumor. I told everybody that's the rumor. Don't ask me. But everybody was very worried.

• 2:07:34Speaker 05

  I think the key here is, it's not so much what did Richard Bisson say directly to Dad, although that has immense value. It's important to capture this for posterity. But it's also an invitation. You are now part of a network of people. It will be known that you've been blessed. It will be known, not just in our government, it will be known in other governments. It will be known by the Russians. And that network operates for the whole of your life.

• 2:08:13Speaker 03

  There are different sources of information about how communication between JFK and Khrushchev was established. Now, for the average human in the world in which we live, they might take off the phone. But number one, Khrushchev represented Central Committee. If you were really going to communicate with the Central Committee, you would use Dobrino, the ambassador, who had a direct line. So he was known.

• 2:08:52Speaker 03

  So if he didn't serve, I think he may have served us, but we don't know. He didn't disclose. But I know Dubrinen, I can tell you about that later. But, I mean, he came to know me, I should say that way. But, um, but.

• 2:09:12Jesse Michels?

  And the American ambassador, was that Walter Stossel, or who?

• 2:09:16Speaker 03

  I don't know, didn't matter. The only thing that mattered was Dubrinen was number one power in communication with Moscow.

• 2:09:28Speaker 05

  But that was the official channels. But there seems that there were also unofficial channels.

• 2:09:34Speaker 03

  Well, there had to be.

• 2:09:36Speaker 05

  And one of them was, it seems, Norman Cousins.

• 2:09:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:40Speaker 05

  Who was against nuclear weapons and somehow was able to pass letters back and forth that reached Khrushchev.

• 2:09:51Speaker 03

  I'm trying to think back. I haven't talked about this before. My first encounter with Dubrinen, as I said, he arrived in 62. A phenomenon unusual, a member of the Central Committee. And I was attending some months after this in 63. Went to one of these Washington galas, you know, the White House press corps roast of the president, or one of those, we have those events.

• 2:10:35Speaker 03

  And when you're invited, you get a seat with a name card. You don't sit where you want, you sit where your name card is. I sat down.

• 2:10:52Speaker 03

  This distinguished-looking gentleman sat next to me.

• 2:10:57Speaker 03

  And said, "Hi. I'm Harald Malmgren." He said, "Yes, I know you. I am Ambassador Dovin."

• 2:11:08Speaker 03

  So all my alumsmen asked, "Hmm, that's not accidental." He chose to sit there, I'm sure. So I'll have to be careful.

• 2:11:25Speaker 03

  And he just chatted friendly way.

• 2:11:30Speaker 03

  "Your name is well-known in Russia. Long before you're at these heavy levels of decision-making," I said. "Why is that?" He said, "You're named after your uncle, whose name is identical to mine." He said, "He was really famous as a chess player, especially among all the security people who are nuts about KGB and others about chess, who was the chess champion." So, and he played many Russians.

• 2:12:08Speaker 03

  "Oh," I said. So he said, "You are identified as the progeny of that Harald Malmgren, which in our way of thinking is, that's good bloodlines."

• 2:12:27Speaker 03

  And so we chatted about that, and how Henry the Marshal of them was surprised for me. He said, "Well, you've landed at the center of everything." I said, "Yeah, I'm surprised." He said, "Yeah." He said, "I gather you were in there with the generals." I said, "How would you know that?" He said, "Hmm, our system is far more thorough. You should be aware of that than you might imagine." I said, "Yeah." He didn't ask me about what he plays. I stopped to say, "You emerged as someone who was able..."

• 2:13:10Speaker 03

  To talk down the most belligerent

• 2:13:16Speaker 03

  American military official of all time. Or of our time, anyway. And so he said, "It made you of interest. How did you do that?

• 2:13:32Speaker 03

  Um, well, it's like a good chess player. How did you win?"

• 2:13:37Speaker 03

  And, um,

• 2:13:41Speaker 03

  so later, we had these encounters, I don't know, once a year or something. Unplanned, he was bound me.

• 2:13:53Speaker 03

  A sabotage. And, um,

• 2:13:58Speaker 03

  he did ask, I have never talked about this. He did ask a one time.

• 2:14:04Speaker 03

  "Why is everyone so excited about these unidentified flying objects?" Really?

• 2:14:14Speaker 03

  He just innocently, he may have been trying to pump intelligence out of me about anything specific. He was very careful. I said, "Because it's something we don't control. It's very simple. Whatever it is, we feel threatened because we only feel safe when we are in total control."

• 2:14:42Speaker 03

  He said, "Nations are never in total control. There are always unexpected challenges." I said, "Yeah, but tell that to somebody in Washington." But, I mean, they are not students of history in Washington.

• 2:14:58Speaker 03

  You know, the emergence of new threats,

• 2:15:06Speaker 03

  it's not something we easily absorb. It's not our culture. We're either triumphant or not. And winning the Second World War made us feel really superior.

• 2:15:21Speaker 03

  So he said, "There's something there," I remember he said, "that is dividing your country."

• 2:15:33Speaker 03

  But maybe could unify our two countries. That's the way he said it.

• 2:15:40Jesse Michels?

  And this is about the UFO subject?

• 2:15:42Speaker 05

  So extraordinary. Wow.

• 2:15:45Speaker 03

  He probed it. I think he was looking for me to say something. But I was not privy to those letters between JFK and Bush.

• 2:16:01Jesse Michels?

  And there are rumors that JFK wanted to do a joint space program with the Soviets around this stuff? And use the UFO thing as kind of a unifying rallying cry or something?

• 2:16:13Speaker 03

  Well, he would. Number one reason, let's not be misguided by these events that think to think it might be us versus them, that this is not Russia or the US. So we needed an early morning system. Those things that you see are not ours. All right, that makes sense. How it extended beyond that to the other idea, maybe we should work together, put the swords

• 2:16:51Speaker 03

  down and let him up for the way to develop our futures without being mortal enemies. Now, that switch, my understanding was definitely in Kennedy's mind. And so, did I see any note? No, I didn't. But some people did. The fact that he expressed verbally to a number of the senior people his desire to share our knowledge of UFOs with Russia caused alarm.

• 2:17:38Speaker 03

  Among some officials in Washington now, Chris Lehman definitely.

• 2:17:48Speaker 03

  But that was one of many things JFK and he were fighting about some.

• 2:17:56Speaker 03

  But it seemed to have alarmed people at CIA, you know, some people at CIA. CIA is a big organization.

• 2:18:02Jesse Michels?

  There is this letter that was FOIA-ed. He used the Freedom of Information Act to, you know, to get out of the government in 2005. And it's of controversial provenance, so we should caveat that to the audience. But it's a letter from JFK to acting CIA director John McConaughey after he had fired Dulles. And he's basically saying, we need to coordinate. I need all of the data on, quote unquote, unknowns in, in, in sensitive airspace from NASA because we need to coordinate better with the Russians so they don't mistake these unknowns as acts of American aggression. And that is basically saying, I need all the UFO data so I can better coordinate with the Russians and we don't end up in, you know, some horrible, you know, bomb out scenario

• 2:18:48Jesse Michels?

  due to the UFOs.

• 2:18:49Speaker 05

  How do we de-conflict?

• 2:18:50Jesse Michels?

  How do we de-conflict?

• 2:18:51Speaker 05

  How do we create a regime for de-confliction so that we don't inadvertently fire and it's not the Russians, vice versa?

• 2:18:58Jesse Michels?

  And in the 1971 SALT treaty.

• 2:19:00Speaker 05

  It's written into it.

• 2:19:01Jesse Michels?

  It's that sort of same language is written into it.

• 2:19:05Speaker 05

  It's in there.

• 2:19:06Jesse Michels?

  And so, so do we think that this letter might be real, this 2005 FOIA-ed letter?

• 2:19:12Speaker 03

  Very likely.

• 2:19:14Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Do you think that UFOs played any sort of part in JFK's death?

• 2:19:23Speaker 03

  This is pure speculation until we see.

• 2:19:28Speaker 03

  But do I think so? Yes. I think it was probably the number one issue.

• 2:19:35Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that?

• 2:19:38Speaker 03

  Because from what I have read, not what I know, because I don't know anything about the actual documents sent by JFK to Russia. But what I have read is that he wanted to talk openly about the UAP phenomenon and the basis for why don't we stop fighting with each other and join forces with and make peace.

• 2:20:16Speaker 05

  And he also wanted to reduce the nuclear arsenal on both sides.

• 2:20:20Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:20:21Speaker 05

  And that was also a threat and challenge to

• 2:20:24Jesse Michels?

  Dulles hated that.

• 2:20:25Speaker 05

  Certain part of the community.

• 2:20:26Jesse Michels?

  And Dulles specifically hated that vis a vis China because it was like if we didn't have nukes, they would outman us.

• 2:20:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was really about numbers.

• 2:20:35Jesse Michels?

  So you think maybe in some of that correspondence, it was let's work together on the non-human intelligence or alien issue. It's funny, Douglas Caddy, who is the lawyer of Howard Hunt, Howard Hunt's this, you know, known CIA longtime spook who shows up in all sorts of, you know, he's like the janitor in Watergate or whatever.

• 2:20:56Speaker 05

  It's incredible.

• 2:20:58Jesse Michels?

  And Douglas Caddy says, you know, I kept asking Howard Hunt, you know, what was the JFK murder actually about? And he kept giving these kind of deflection answers. And then finally, he says, it was about the alien presence.

• 2:21:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it was.

• 2:21:14Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 2:21:15Speaker 03

  I think JFK fully knew all about UFOs long before he became president.

• 2:21:21Jesse Michels?

  What gives you conviction in that?

• 2:21:23Speaker 03

  Because he was in naval intelligence for a while. He learned most of it from Forrestal. He was in the intelligence.

• 2:21:36Jesse Michels?

  Forrestal was Secretary of the Navy before becoming Secretary of Defense.

• 2:21:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Forrest. Fully briefed him and talked about it. And he talked about it. And you'll have to do the history, but he was fully briefed by Forrestal.

• 2:21:50Jesse Michels?

  How do we know Forrestal knew about UFOs? Because there are tons of rumors. He managed Admiral Byrd, who engaged in Operation High Jumps, bringing probably like 70 or so ships and 33, I think, airplanes and almost 5,000 men down the coast of Argentina and towards Antarctica. And they reportedly encounter all these flying saucers that are shooting at them with lasers. But other than that, do we have any real evidence that Forrestal knew about UFOs?

• 2:22:23Speaker 03

  You have to do more research. My research, which tends to be scattered and until recently, I haven't tried to organize it. But I found several references to Forrestal. For him, going to Forrestal with questions and getting answers.

• 2:22:44Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Well, JFK was also extremely interested in astrophysics at Harvard and was close with Don Menzel, who was this famous UFO debunker, but who admitted to JFK that he held some of the deepest clearances across the board, CIA, NSA, and Navy. And so maybe there's some sort of connection there. But did you ever speak to JFK about UFOs directly?

• 2:23:09Speaker 03

  No, no. My interaction with JFK and Bobby was very limited. But I was somehow part of the clan because Sarge Schreiber, the brother-in-law, was the go-between. He talked to me all the time. Sarge Schreiber.

• 2:23:34Speaker 03

  Proposed me for several different jobs. And I declined each one. But I was unaccepted in a circle of person. But Bobby and Teddy, they were consumed with events that seemed to be coming at them faster and faster. If I look back at top management, I would have to say they were operating without an adequate buffer system. So my guess is they were overloaded with stuff and didn't have a way. Neither one of them.

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  When you're a senator, you have a small staff, but you know, you're operating on your own. You don't know how to run apparatus. Someone like LBJ came in, he ran the whole damn senate. You know, some multitude of people at all levels. But JFK came in with small, limited naval experience, but seemed to be busy with Forrestal.

• 2:24:48Jesse Michels?

  Do you think Forrestal's death had anything to do with UFOs? So Forrestal was sort of pushed out of his position as Secretary of Defense.

• 2:24:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:25:00Jesse Michels?

  And he was sort of betting on George Dewey against Truman. And then he ends up in this Navy hospital in Bethesda, Maryland, and he sort of, you know, gets killed by gravity, quote unquote. So he's like mid-writing some Sophocles poem. I think his brother, his brother Harry Forrestal had met with him the day before, said he was totally of sane, sound mind.

• 2:25:20Speaker 03

  Through a window didn't seem to be openable.

• 2:25:23Jesse Michels?

  That's right. That was the other thing. Yeah, and it was like his bathrobe was like tied to the, I don't know, the whole thing made no sense.

• 2:25:30Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:25:31Jesse Michels?

  So do you think that had anything to do with an interest in UFO subject?

• 2:25:35Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 2:25:37Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:25:37Speaker 03

  But I'm not going to speculate.

• 2:25:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And so after JFK and all these guys, George McBundy, all of his top aides go to Los Alamos, they're presumably given the same sort of briefing that you got.

• 2:25:52Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:25:53Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he then takes an increased interest in UFOs at all?

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:25:59Jesse Michels?

  And what makes you think that?

• 2:26:02Speaker 03

  I think JFK somehow saw this moment to make real peace. We weren't worried about China at that moment. But why don't we and the Soviets just stop fighting, join forces, explain what we know together, and deal with this force that we don't understand?

• 2:26:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and they're all...

• 2:26:32Speaker 03

  And somehow, in that exchange during the crisis itself, there were communications with Russia. We don't know every word. Maybe some of it is recorded. Some of it may have been through Gorbachev, who may have used his lines to... I mean, he had his method of communication that was theoretically, you couldn't impregnate probably. I've seen us establish a working discussion between two guys.

• 2:27:12Jesse Michels?

  And that's a thread that recurs occasionally. Actually, Gorbachev was being interviewed by Charlie Rose.

• 2:27:20Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:27:21Jesse Michels?

  And Charlie is saying, you know, she's talking about, you know, "Talk to me about your correspondence with Reagan." And Gorbachev goes in a really weird direction that nobody expects. And he says, "Well, one time, we're sitting there, you know, Reagan turns to him and he whispers, he says..."

• 2:27:39Speaker 19

  If the United States were attacked by someone from outer space, would you help us? I said, "No doubt about it." He said, "We too." So that's interesting.

• 2:28:00Speaker 05

  Right now, in modern times, we are clearly...

• 2:28:04Speaker 05

  Shooting at these things. The week of the Chinese balloon, there were three other unidentified objects that the military said they shot down. And so here's just a very profound question. If this represents higher intelligence, or even just intelligence, let alone higher intelligence, is shooting at it the right way to open the conversation? Number one. Number two, generally speaking, you're not supposed to shoot at stuff if you don't know what it is.

• 2:28:39Speaker 05

  And so are we locked into a kind of 1950s thinking about this thing because it's so secret, it's so compartmentalized, it's so dangerous to national security, that no one can even really discuss this? And are we missing something quite profound? Because we won't even ask the question, why are we shooting at something that we don't understand and might represent intelligence of some kind?

• 2:29:14Jesse Michels?

  Maybe they're sort of waiting, you know, there's one of my favorite quotes, Eden Philpotts, it's like, "The world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to get sharper."

• 2:29:23Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 2:29:24Jesse Michels?

  And there's something about this bidirectional, you know, if we ascend to a certain level, maybe we can have communion with these things, but it doesn't really make sense for them to show themselves to us until then.

• 2:29:36Speaker 05

  Again, regardless of whether it is real, since we can't identify it, what I find again, interesting to observe is the level of fear that exists, and particularly in that official circles, in amongst militaries, because of the lack of control, that it must be dangerous, it must be a threat. And you will often hear the discussion of, "There's this thing in our airspace." I'm like, what if we're in its airspace?

• 2:30:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, right, right.

• 2:30:09Speaker 05

  Just a creative way of thinking.

• 2:30:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:12Speaker 05

  What's the definition of...

• 2:30:15Speaker 05

  Airspace in a world where we have a James Webb telescope that is literally millions of miles away.

• 2:30:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:21Speaker 05

  We're probably in a lot of other airspaces that we can't even identify. So it's just, again, given the level of scientific and technological advancement that we, humanity, are capable of. We are sending drones millions of miles away. Why are we surprised if we have something here as well? And so it's the way you begin the thought process on this. I fear we're stuck in this mental lockdown that made sense in 1950, but it doesn't make sense in 2025.

• 2:30:59Jesse Michels?

  It really doesn't. It doesn't even make sense from a national security standpoint.

• 2:31:03Speaker 05

  Especially not from a national security point of view.

• 2:31:05Jesse Michels?

  Lens through which we see this, but it is an important lens. And it doesn't make sense. Yeah, exactly. If you have this over compartmentalization in Cold War secrecy, where you have these aerospace prime contractors that were sent to do this, so you couldn't use the Freedom of Information Act, or you wouldn't have civilian oversight, or whatever.

• 2:31:25Speaker 05

  Plausible deniability.

• 2:31:26Jesse Michels?

  Plausible deniability. And then you have constant compartmentalization. So left hands not talking to the right. You're not getting the proper coordination on the most advanced and exciting and interesting R and D on the.

• 2:31:37Speaker 05

  I would go a bit further. And again, Dan and I have talked a lot about this. There's another layer of this problem, and that is China, Russia, India. They never had what we would call a Cartesian revolution. Meaning, in the West, the United States and Europe, after Rene Descartes, the philosopher, basically split apart the scientific from the mystical, the mysterious, the religious, the belief systems. And we continue to this day to have this split.

• 2:32:17Speaker 05

  And so therefore, you can't study this stuff because if it's not repeatable, it's not subject to scientific analyses, because that's all about repeatability. But the rest of the world didn't have this split, and they still think holistically. And you can have mystical happenings with scientific findings, and that is not contradictory in China, in Russia, in India, in across Africa. So the question today is, is China, maybe in collaboration with Russia, making more progress because they don't have this mental hang-up?

• 2:32:55Speaker 17

  If you wanted to study certain kinds of things related to what's called ESP in the United States, you had to hide it very carefully because you were crazy and then the government didn't want you people to think they're supporting crazy stuff. But if you wanted to do the work in Russia, go right ahead. Fine, here's your money. Because they're not caught in the religion that says it's not possible.

• 2:33:16Speaker 05

  That's an interesting question. That we can't bring our science to it because we have an inhibition. And if China can, is it possible that they will announce this first? And that's part of why I think a lot of this is progressing. There's a fear of what is called catastrophic disclosure. And that China says, we have the fastest supercomputers and quantum computers. We have the best artificial intelligence and artificial general intelligence. We got to the moon before you guys on this round, which looks like it's a real possibility. And we have found something.

• 2:33:59Speaker 05

  And if that is announced, we in the West will go, well, prove it. But the whole rest of the world in that moment, the danger is all the adulation, admiration of Los Alamos, of NASA, all eyes turn to Beijing.

• 2:34:19Speaker 05

  And then we can say, oh, well, but this is not scientific and you can't prove it. But the whole rest of the world is still in awe and wonder. And that is another reason why it's not in our control here in the United States. There's a real possibility that our competitors are racing ahead because they haven't got these mental constraints.

• 2:34:41Jesse Michels?

  I think that's very well said. Yeah. And I hope policymakers and whoever's listening to this listens to that and we make real changes accordingly.

• 2:35:00Jesse Michels?

  We're gonna do an Explain That Tweet series with you.

• 2:35:04Speaker 05

  Oh, God. The ones that had me going, Dad, what the heck?

• 2:35:09Speaker 08

  I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room at Wright-Patterson where you put all his secret stuff. Could I go in there? I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder than hell at me. Cussed me out, said, "Don't ever ask me that question."

• 2:35:33Jesse Michels?

  You said on X that you thought Curtis LeMay had some knowledge of the UAP topic.

• 2:35:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:35:41Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that?

• 2:35:43Speaker 03

  I never heard him say something about that, but the research that he was into included the nuclear-powered airplane for the better bomber.

• 2:35:56Jesse Michels?

  Project Orion.

• 2:35:57Speaker 03

  The better bombers. But he was, I'll have to think about it. I have a reason somewhere in the back of my head. Maybe we're gonna have a break soon. I'll have to think.

• 2:36:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. He started the Rand Corporation and was interested in Townsend Brown's work as well.

• 2:36:14Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 2:36:15Speaker 05

  And Rand did right on the subject at the beginning.

• 2:36:18Jesse Michels?

  They did, and you know who ended up running Rand was the president of Rand for over two or three decades was Michael Rich, who's Ben Rich's son. Ben Rich is obviously, you know, the successor to Kelly Johnson at Skunk Works. Right. Who's responsible for the kind of stealth revolution.

• 2:36:36Speaker 05

  It's a small group of people that are all interconnected.

• 2:36:40Jesse Michels?

  Yes, absolutely. You also said on X that you have uncovered collaboration between Nikola Tesla and Thomas Townsend Brown.

• 2:36:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I said to you informally, I did not get that from any US source.

• 2:37:00Jesse Michels?

  What source did you get it from?

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  Foreign intelligence.

• 2:37:06Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it is a good source? Do you think it's real?

• 2:37:10Speaker 03

  No reason. Why would somebody tell me that?

• 2:37:12Jesse Michels?

  Do you know the nature of that collaboration?

• 2:37:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, because nobody had associated them. Now, as I say, I have a network real well. It's not a network of secrets. It's a network of trusted people. I mean, during a lot of these recent years, I had friends, the chief, the national security chief for the Japanese prime minister was my buddy for years.

• 2:37:46Speaker 05

  Actually, Dad, we should say that after you served Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, you were also an advisor to many heads of government for many European countries. You advised every single Japanese prime minister since Takahaka in 1971. So, I mean, the breadth of the network that he has is, it's exceptional. I've never seen anything like it.

• 2:38:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, when Nixon went down, Jerry Ford entered the White House.

• 2:38:19Speaker 03

  The first full day, I got summoned. And he was there with Bill Seedman. And Bill Seedman was, you know, in later years, the head of Resolution Trust and the FDIC and all that. Bill Seedman was brilliant. Anyway, they said, Hal, we've got something you want to do. I said, you know, I'm probably going to leave the government soon. Well, don't hurry. We have a lot of things we want you to do. But first of all, we want you to arrange with the NSA

• 2:38:56Speaker 03

  a new intelligence system where what is reported of interest to Jerry Ford is what he wants and not what the CIA thinks he ought to want. So I did that. The next morning, at 6:00 AM, I'm living in Georgetown at the time. Somebody knocking on my door. I'm sent by the director of NSA to give you a morning brief. And then every day, I had, you know, I prefer to get up just a hair later.

• 2:39:39Speaker 03

  But anyway, and I said, well, Jerry Ford doesn't need to know about who the new mistress for the French Prime Minister is. It's not really up his alley. What we do need to know is important things like Russian bookings for ships that might contain, might have capacity to move a lot of hours range because you're worried about inflation.

• 2:40:11Speaker 03

  So I went through a list of such things. Oh, this is wonderful. A few weeks later, the head of NSA, you know, some general, I don't remember his name now, called me, can you have lunch over here? I'm okay. And he said, you're the best client NSA has ever had. You're telling us what you need.

• 2:40:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  We have huge resources, but we never know what the client wants. So we feed them all kinds of stuff. And we give it to CIA, and then they decide what might be of interest to them. And they emphasize the love life of most important people.

• 2:40:54Jesse Michels?

  That sounds like a CIA thing to do. Just go for the compromat or something.

• 2:41:02Speaker 03

  You know, keeps your attention.

• 2:41:04Speaker 05

  But I'm told that your reconfiguration of the intelligence that went, that goes into the presidential daily briefing remains.

• 2:41:14Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:41:15Speaker 05

  And that the NSA continues to have that input, which they did not have before that time.

• 2:41:21Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:41:21Speaker 03

  I should improve that myself, but that's what I'm done to believe. After I left the government.

• 2:41:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, real quick, Harold, I do want to stick on the Townsend Brown-Tesla collaboration. So do you know anything about the nature of that collaboration?

• 2:41:43Speaker 03

  About anti-gravity motion.

• 2:41:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And so Tesla stumbled on this stuff as well, because they were both working with high voltage electricity.

• 2:41:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think, see, I really would like to read Tesla's work first, but they're all in the hands of. You can't have access.

• 2:42:11Jesse Michels?

  You know who was tasked with retrieving Tesla's files? John Trump, who was an MIT professor, the world's or the country's leading radar expert at the time, and Donald Trump's uncle.

• 2:42:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, but he passed the move, didn't he, through Navy Intelligence, isn't that right?

• 2:42:28Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. That's interesting, and that goes towards your theories around this stuff, and I'm pretty sure Townsend Brown's stuff was classified by the Navy.

• 2:42:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:42:38Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 2:42:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it had to be because he was working on submarines.

• 2:42:41Jesse Michels?

  He was. Yeah, and he was part of the Navy up until 1942, when skunk work started, and then he joined Martin Vega Corporation. But maybe he was still working for the Navy because he showed up two weeks after leaving the Navy.

• 2:42:55Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:42:55Jesse Michels?

  And he sort of left, you know, they said that they dismissed him, but like he had an amazing record. And there's even an FBI file from the time saying he was the country's leading radar expert. So there's something around that story that's very interesting.

• 2:43:07Speaker 05

  It is fascinating, too, that the public are clamoring for the release of the JFK files, but still no talk of the Tesla papers.

• 2:43:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, nobody talks about it.

• 2:43:18Speaker 05

  And so what's in there that's of such great importance?

• 2:43:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, Tesla's another guy. He said he spoke, he communicated with aliens in Colorado Springs, and people just, I think they assume that's the quacky part of his work or whatever. They assume that that's ridiculous or whatever. But he would, he said that, and, you know, so. And then Townsend Brown would constantly talk about, you know, space brothers and communication with aliens. He would sleep next to what he called a shortwave radio. He claimed that that was how he communicated with them.

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  Well, it's quite possible that there was communication improvised, different ways of, is there a way to communicate?

• 2:44:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:01Speaker 03

  A shortwave radio would be one not so hard to do, harder is to get in somebody's head telepathically, especially because we grew up thinking that way.

• 2:44:15Speaker 05

  And yet, the US government spent a fair amount of time and money on exactly that issue over the years.

• 2:44:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, but to the extent that they learned anything between that and LSD, we'll never know, but they have some knowledge.

• 2:44:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, because this is an interesting kind of question, because Stargate, this psychic spy program started by Hal Puthoff and Russell Targ, originally, most of the guys working on that were part of the technical staff services of the CIA. And it was people like Sidney Gottlieb and a lot of his comrades who were working on this stuff. And then post-Curch Commission, that kind of changed. But, yeah, how far do you think we went when it came to kind of mind control? And, you know, it's clear that one intelligence modality is being able to remote view, draw up Russian nuclear bases, find hostages, all sorts of things like that.

• 2:45:12Jesse Michels?

  Even Jimmy Carter is on record saying the craziest thing of my presidency from 1976 to 1980 was actually this woman, Rosemary Smith, finding a downed TU-22 Russian cargo plane. And she was given all of Africa as a target, and she circled three square miles in Zaire, and they found the plane.

• 2:45:30Speaker 20

  And the next time one of our space satellites went over that area, we located the plane where she said it was.

• 2:45:39Jesse Michels?

  So that's clear, but do you think we've gone farther in their sort of mind control techniques that we have?

• 2:45:45Speaker 03

  Very nicely, but we don't know, do we?

• 2:45:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:50Speaker 03

  Personally, when I think about always being at some point, all these interconnectivities for men, I keep thinking, where's the direction coming from? I mean, I don't feel any direct...

• 2:46:13Speaker 03

  Sensing. On the other hand, when I grew up, my mother was a powerful personality. Brain, I mean, she could read my mind. She said, "Why did you do that?" And I go, "I don't remember doing that." "Yes, you do. Let me see." It was 3rd of January 1942 or something, you know. And I go, "How did she do that?" So she could do it, but I couldn't do that with her. But on the other hand, I sometimes feel that there's this hand over me that's leaning to the left or leaning to the right. And that's the closest I have to it.

• 2:46:58Jesse Michels?

  And now you feel maybe somewhat guided to look into a lot of this, you know, Townsend Brown and UFOs.

• 2:47:05Speaker 03

  I feel guided. And why did I hear about that? Because I showed a deep interest. I sent a tweet saying, "Why is it I can't see Tesla's work? Why, what's so important is it make..." Now, to be honest, as a semi-scientist in this whole lot, I respect the work of Albert Einstein, but his works are conceptual and theoretic, true and math. Tesla was very much hands-on when he's learned about electricity,

• 2:47:50Speaker 03

  its application in everything, the movement of electrons. Like, Faraday sends powering lights in your room, which led him into physical movement, transposition, whatever term you want to use. But all that's buried, but he was way, way out there. I mean, in my mind...

• 2:48:24Speaker 03

  He was equal to or even stronger than Einstein.

• 2:48:29Jesse Michels?

  I agree with that.

• 2:48:31Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 2:48:32Jesse Michels?

  Well Einstein was never an experimentalist. Tesla was doing real experiments.

• 2:48:37Speaker 03

  He was, as I say, he was cerebral.

• 2:48:41Speaker 03

  You know, it was all mental, conceptual.

• 2:48:44Jesse Michels?

  To me, it's almost like Einstein put a governor on our physical progress in reality. And actually.

• 2:48:50Speaker 03

  I agree with that. He made physics go that way.

• 2:48:54Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:48:55Speaker 03

  Whereas Tesla was trying to pull physics that way.

• 2:48:59Jesse Michels?

  Yes, and the experimentalists make the most progress. And often they're poor theoreticians and they don't actually have the proper frameworks to really understand what they're doing.

• 2:49:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:49:09Jesse Michels?

  But they're, I mean, I think in the case of Tesla, Townsend Brown, and a bunch of other cases, they're sort of, really at the, operating at the boundaries of human knowledge. And often it's with high-energy physics, or you know, particle accelerators, things like that, where we're doing things in the physical world that are kind of breaking, breaking prior limits. And sometimes it's in microscopy and just getting, you know, to lower levels of granularity. But I think that begets so much more progress than guys, you know, with chalkboards, just like writing equations.

• 2:49:43Speaker 05

  So, this comes up against another issue, and you and I were talking with Eric Weinstein the other day about this, which is, did we create a kind of invisible glass or perspex wall? And many technologies, particularly in the nuclear space, were placed on the other side. And so you could only study them, or get involved with them, if you had a classified status and you joined a government lab, or an approved academic lab. But if you tried to do things with nuclear physics in your garage, you were going to be arrested. And people have been arrested over the years for attempting these things.

• 2:50:24Speaker 05

  Well, that pushed a lot of theoretical physics into the "don't touch" arena. And now, because of incredible advancements in computational power, in the kind of devices that gather data.

• 2:50:48Speaker 05

  Basically, you can't lock it away the way you used to. People are able to uncover it. And maybe that is part of also what is causing this UAP issue to bubble up to the surface is because it's very hard to keep a lock on it now. You can classify the Tesla papers, but human beings are still starting to figure out what Tesla figured out. And today, you know, there's been talk of, for example, Andreessen and Horowitz, who are two of the leading venture capitalists alive today, who have recently been discussing the previous administration's attitude towards math because they don't want some teenager

• 2:51:29Speaker 05

  coming up with an artificial intelligence that would have wide-ranging consequences. So they started to think we could lock that down.

• 2:51:36Speaker 21

  You know, one of the things we argued in our meeting with the White House on AI policy was, you know, look, there are going to be, there are going to be issues that come from AI, but let's, they should be regulated. The regulation should happen at the application level, not at the technology level.

• 2:51:46Speaker 17

  Yeah.

• 2:51:46Jesse Michels?

  And he argued with me when I said that.

• 2:51:48Speaker 21

  Well, so, yes, so, so Ben basically said, look, it doesn't make sense because to regulate AI at the technology level, you're regulating math. And of course, we're not going to do that. Like, that doesn't make any sense. And you'll recall that what they said was, no, actually.

• 2:52:00Jesse Michels?

  We can classify math.

• 2:52:01Speaker 21

  We can classify math. And literally, this was, this is verbatim, this is, this is, we did, we classified a whole entire areas of physics within the nuclear era and made them state secrets, like of the, of the, like, theoretical.

• 2:52:14Jesse Michels?

  Physics, yeah.

• 2:52:16Speaker 21

  Science of physics.

• 2:52:17Speaker 05

  And they're like, wait, what?

• 2:52:18Jesse Michels?

  Like, what? Yeah, like, physics is supposed to be open source.

• 2:52:21Speaker 05

  And so you start to wonder, is Eric Weinstein right that physics went down a certain road because there was a wall?

• 2:52:28Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:52:29Speaker 05

  And now the weight of new innovations is crushing that wall.

• 2:52:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, that brings, you know, another Explain That Tweet series. So we have, Harold, you wrote.

• 2:52:42Jesse Michels?

  Questions appearing regarding successor to AEC. AEC is the Atomic Energy Commission.

• 2:52:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:52:48Jesse Michels?

  Department of Energy now oversees all national labs, including nuke research and security. National labs also include advanced research on other potential security threats such as biotech, all subject to DOE, Department of Energy, R and D classifications. So are you saying here that our most advanced science is not occurring in the labs or hallways of MIT, Harvard, Stanford, but in fact at these DOE research facilities?

• 2:53:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:53:18Jesse Michels?

  I guess that's just a mic drop moment.

• 2:53:24Speaker 03

  Let me give you an example. I became really close friends with Senator Howard Baker. I mean, he would have made a great president. Anyway, I worked with him, talked to him a lot. We became friends. He had me and my wife of that time down at his country house several times. And he said one day, I want to interrupt to Oak Ridge and spend some time with them.

• 2:54:09Speaker 03

  And I said, oh, I didn't know you were attached with them. I thought you were attached with Tennessee Valley. He said, yeah, but, you know, I live in Tennessee. I'm nearby. You can imagine that we are intimately interconnected. I would like you to spend a few days talking to them about the technologies they're working on that might be made, commercialized in some way or other, because they don't have that in their work agenda. They just develop and develop. But he said, I just have a feeling that none of that should be made in public.

• 2:54:52Speaker 03

  So I did. And they had really interesting stuff going on. Areas that you never think of. The most impressive one was when they said, somebody said, "We know more about filters than anybody in the world." And I said, "Filters?" I said, "Like filters for the water supplies and filters of molecules, filters of any moving elements in our system." And we don't have a purpose for all of this,

• 2:55:35Speaker 03

  but they're very important in developing refining nuclear weapons. That's why we do it. I said, "It's of great value in biotech, in management of the water supply, is only one of many things. But it should be." Well, we don't have a mechanism for generalizing what we're doing. And it's too much, it's too much work to say that's deregulated. So we just, we don't want to get tangled up with all that stuff in Washington. So we just do what we're doing. It's stuck in my mind.

• 2:56:19Speaker 03

  And why is that? When AT&T was on the eve of being broken up, AT&T hired me as the final witness before Judge Harold Green. And I got into, the United States is not ready for total breakup because, number one, Bell Labs is where all our really advanced sciences. They said, "How do you know that?" Because I went to Bell Labs. I spent a week there. I'm telling you, that's where all the brain power is. And I said, "The second reason is our industry,

• 2:57:03Speaker 03

  we don't have Panasonic and all these other companies ready to build all the phones for all the offices. We're not ready. So if you're going to do this, it should be done in stages." The Department of Justice guy kept getting up. I objected, "This testimony is not part of the case." Judge Green shut them down and said, "The first man to talk about anything relevant and of interest to me is a human being. So just let him talk."

• 2:57:35Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe, because we're talking about Bell Labs, that's part of this narrative of this guy Philip J. Corso, who was working in the Army on what he claims to be the Foreign Material Exploitation Desk. He says that as part of that role, basically crash materials from Roswell were given to him to dole out to private industry. And mainly, it was given to Bell Labs. He says that Kevlar, lasers, and transistors were all derivative of this alien technology.

• 2:58:07Speaker 03

  Should be.

• 2:58:09Jesse Michels?

  So you'd say possible, but not? You don't have any evidence for that?

• 2:58:13Speaker 03

  No, but it should be.

• 2:58:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:58:15Speaker 05

  And let me interject. Something that keeps coming up in conversation about this issue is I hear a lot of, "Pippa, look for the technologies where there's no on-ramp." I go, "What do you mean, on-ramp? I mean, you can't find the research history that led to it. Those are the interesting ones to pay attention to." They're not saying it's definitely from this particular source.

• 2:58:42Jesse Michels?

  They come out of nowhere.

• 2:58:43Speaker 05

  The ones that come out of nowhere, those have interesting stories.

• 2:58:48Jesse Michels?

  So fascinating. And Harold, do you believe, because you're interested in Townsend Brown to begin with, presumably this source gave you this information on Townsend Brown collaborating with Tesla, which if that's true, that is remarkable and needs to be known more broadly. Do you think that Townsend Brown discovered anti-gravity?

• 2:59:11Speaker 03

  I don't know, but somebody just posted on the internet, "The birthplace of Townsend Brown."

• 2:59:24Speaker 03

  And I downloaded the whole thing. It turns out to be 500 pages. I tap it on my telephone.

• 2:59:32Speaker 05

  He was very excited about it.

• 2:59:33Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 2:59:35Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go through them.

• 2:59:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:39Speaker 03

  Somewhere in there, I'm gonna find something.

• 2:59:43Speaker 03

  So I can't answer your question right now.

• 2:59:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:46Speaker 03

  But

• 2:59:50Speaker 03

  but I think Tesla anyway was on this track.

• 2:59:56Speaker 03

  Movement of electrons allowed repositioning of just about everything, anything.

• 3:00:05Jesse Michels?

  What exactly does that mean?

• 3:00:08Speaker 03

  That's the term.

• 3:00:12Jesse Michels?

  Transmutation.

• 3:00:13Speaker 03

  Transmutation.

• 3:00:14Jesse Michels?

  Interesting, of elements.

• 3:00:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:00:16Jesse Michels?

  So that's so interesting because when I go deep enough on the Townsend Brown stuff with certain scientists, they'll say that it gets into that, the transmutation of elements thing. And that that's actually why this stuff was shut down. Because there are more dangerous implications around that than the anti-gravity stuff.

• 3:00:40Speaker 05

  Well, look at today, again, I'm a bit involved in the world of artificial intelligence. We already are able to create what are called programmable materials. Where you can specify the behavior of the material. And use materials as a data transmission mechanism. So suddenly you're dealing with things and capabilities that don't fit traditional parameters. Let's add to that that, you know, because of Google's new Sycamore supercomputer and their new Willow chip, they're already discovering basically the recipes

• 3:01:24Speaker 05

  for creating new materials, atom by atom by atom, which is a revolution in human history. Because in the past, you had to start with, you know, a tree to make a table out of wood, or a boat, right?

• 3:01:38Speaker 05

  But today, you can start with, what is the requirement? What are the characteristics that I need? And then build that material, atom by atom by atom. So suddenly, I mean, we have, I think they've said 380,000 new materials and 2 million new crystals, that no one's ever worked with before. And this will only continue now. So these ideas, that you can have materials that do strange things, is no longer insane, like, we're building them.

• 3:02:09Speaker 03

  What this allows you to do is, to devise it in here, and make it over there.

• 3:02:17Speaker 05

  Also, yes.

• 3:02:19Speaker 03

  So you can make it anywhere, once you have the concept. It's a cookbook.

• 3:02:23Speaker 05

  It's a cookbook, yeah.

• 3:02:36Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so, JFK administration, you're this young whiz kid, and you see this kind of rupture in the administration, where JFK is gonna scatter the CIA to the winds. Dulles gets fired, he's kind of licking his wounds, back at the Brown Brothers Harriman, which is this firm that sort of formed the CIA to begin with, and he is plotting possible revenge against JFK?

• 3:03:02Speaker 03

  Probably.

• 3:03:03Jesse Michels?

  So, what do you think happens from there? Do you think Dulles had anything to do with JFK's assassination?

• 3:03:11Speaker 03

  Well, they say they are going to release all those papers now.

• 3:03:17Jesse Michels?

  That's right.

• 3:03:19Speaker 03

  So we'll see. But what does all those papers mean? I mean, like, one version, or all the versions?

• 3:03:29Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever met a guy named Danny Sheehan, by any chance?

• 3:03:32Speaker 03

  Pippin knows him.

• 3:03:34Jesse Michels?

  So, what do you think of, because you tweeted, this was the first time, I was so like, I was like, wow, I'm on Harold's radar, this is amazing. You tweeted, you know, Jesse from American Alchemy, just went over a lot of the history around the JFK assassination with Danny Sheehan. And so, I felt like that was maybe somewhat of an endorsement of the Danny Sheehan narrative of what happened.

• 3:04:03Speaker 03

  Pepper knows him. Pepper knows him even better now. I'm about to know him, it seems.

• 3:04:10Jesse Michels?

  Nice. Do you think, so his narrative is that Nixon, who was head of the 5412 Committee under Eisenhower, along with being his VP, he was working with Howard Hughes to create this quote-unquote "S-Force", which was this kind of elite sleeper cell unit. And they were going to take out Che Guevara and Castro. And that ends up not happening. The Bay of Pigs occurs. And Eisenhower leaves and JFK comes in. And they sort of move into the, get rolled into these other special ops programs, mongoose and foxtrot.

• 3:04:53Jesse Michels?

  And then, once JFK fires Dulles, Dulles is kind of licking his wounds at the Brown Brothers' harem. And he recommissions this S-Force, which is full of these Cuban exiles who've been militarized originally to take out Che Guevara and Castro. But in fact, this time around, to take out JFK. Do you think that there's any credence to this story?

• 3:05:14Speaker 03

  There are quite a few stories. When I was six years old, my father moved us to, first to Providence, Rhode Island, and then to a community further along, Narragansett Bay. And suddenly, I found myself in a community which was totally dominated by the Sicilian Mafia. In fact, most of Rhode Island was.

• 3:05:53Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 3:05:54Speaker 03

  And the dominant mafia figure for Boston was...

• 3:06:01Speaker 03

  The overseer was Providence.

• 3:06:05Speaker 03

  And I grew up in this environment where in school, if one kid, one male, got to be a bully out of nowhere, around near closing time for school, a couple of guys, big guys, would come in, grab him, take him out,

• 3:06:28Speaker 03

  beat the shit out of him. And then they told us next day, "He won't bully you anymore."

• 3:06:37Speaker 03

  And so I later on began to ask the police, "How does it work here?" I said, "No disorganized, no disorganized time.

• 3:06:51Speaker 03

  No break-ins, no bullying, no wife-beating, no disorganized time. Organized time definitely is protection."

• 3:07:05Speaker 03

  And all those stories about mafia movies, I mean, I grew up in all that. Yeah, this is the way it works.

• 3:07:13Speaker 03

  And I met a lot of these people. Not my culture, I wasn't even Catholic, the wrong Catholics. But I learned a lot about it. Now, let me tell you, it's very interesting to me. The first time I met the Prime Minister of Italy in 1973,

• 3:07:37Speaker 03

  along with Pete Peterson, who'd been sent over by Nixon to do a kind of tour of the world.

• 3:07:44Speaker 03

  I sat down. Ah, he said, "Mr. Malambrun, I've been looking forward to meeting you. Pete, you won't understand this, let me explain. Hell, he knows all about the Sicilian way." He grew up in it, he understands it.

• 3:08:06Speaker 03

  I know what he knows. So let me explain before you start some lecture on

• 3:08:14Speaker 03

  confusion of state and crime in Italy. We had all these communist troublemakers, red brigades, all kinds of stuff. The only way the church and the state could fight, we had to use the mafia. Because they could do things we couldn't do.

• 3:08:38Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:08:39Speaker 03

  So, yes, there was a triumvirate that ran Italy for a long time. And it was an alliance of the Pope, the Vatican, the elected government,

• 3:08:52Speaker 03

  and the Italian mafia.

• 3:08:55Jesse Michels?

  We'll let the audience interpret that analogy

• 3:08:59Jesse Michels?

  as an answer to the JFK question.

• 3:09:02Speaker 03

  When I met Chris Hutter, had been governor of Massachusetts before he... He'd been in Congress and governor of Massachusetts before he became Secretary of State. So I asked him one day, I said, "How did you ever do that?" I said, "You're a straight shooter.

• 3:09:22Speaker 03

  Why did you ever take that job

• 3:09:26Speaker 03

  as governor of Massachusetts?"

• 3:09:29Speaker 03

  He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "You can't run

• 3:09:33Speaker 03

  the state of Massachusetts without running Boston. You can't run Boston without the mafia." He said, "Oh, you asked the same question my wife asked me. Why are you doing this stupid thing? Why do you want to take your job?" He said, "I puzzled, I thought, I thought, and decided I have a... I'm going to establish a principle." And it worked for me. I said, "But what's the principle?" "I announce that I will not meet with anyone for any reason outside government without members of the press president." And he said, "No one from the mafia could come to talk to me

• 3:10:18Speaker 03

  without me inviting the press in." So they had to use indirection. And I could always rave them off, saying, "I'm not going to even say, 'Is that a threat?' I'm going to ignore you." He said, "I just insulated myself totally."

• 3:10:36Speaker 05

  And he was independently wealthy as well.

• 3:10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:10:38Speaker 05

  So he couldn't be bought.

• 3:10:39Speaker 03

  He said, "They can't touch me. I'm really wealthy." Yeah. So I felt like asking, "Are you going to spare me a little money?"

• 3:10:50Speaker 05

  But I think it's so interesting. How did the Prime Minister of Italy know? And the answer must be that because you grew up in that community.

• 3:10:58Speaker 03

  They knew all about it.

• 3:11:00Speaker 05

  They knew you, they knew your dad.

• 3:11:01Speaker 03

  I never told anybody about it. He knew all about it. Wow.

• 3:11:04Speaker 05

  You know, so that's a different network.

• 3:11:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that same day,

• 3:11:10Speaker 03

  he said, "I'm going to go across the river

• 3:11:14Speaker 03

  to the Vatican and meet Archbishop Martinkas, the head of the Vatican Bank." Wow. So he, "Would you two please go over there? I've already arranged the cars outside. They'll drive you over. You won't get stopped. You're coming for me to see the Archbishop. Will you go over there? Martinkas, former Archbishop of Chicago.

• 3:11:44Speaker 03

  Big guy, tall, in his black robe, cowboy boots,

• 3:11:52Speaker 03

  leaning back, smoking a big fat Cuban cigar." He started off the same way. "I've read all about you. Glad to meet you. And Mr. Hal, I think he said, here.

• 3:12:08Speaker 03

  He understands everything. But so be with me. I'll really explain to you. Hal will explain more if you have questions later."

• 3:12:17Speaker 03

  And I looked up and he said, "We know about you from your boyhood with a lot of our associates in the mafia." So then he proceeded to talk about the threat. Quite apartheid way of defending themselves against communism.

• 3:12:37Speaker 03

  I remember coming out of the pizza and, "How did you know all that?" I said, "Search me, I don't know." But there was movement between Sicily and people living in near where I was.

• 3:12:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:55Speaker 03

  And I met a lot of these people. They never said, "Boy, when you grow up, you can be one of us." I wasn't one of them. I wasn't Catholic. I wasn't some... Anyway, it was interesting.

• 3:13:09Jesse Michels?

  Well, it sounds like the Italian government and the Vatican were tied into... They had mob ties in the US.

• 3:13:18Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 3:13:18Jesse Michels?

  And that connectivity allowed them to understand who you were to begin with.

• 3:13:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, no question.

• 3:13:25Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 3:13:28Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's like a deeper layer to politics that people are unaware of? That, you know, I mean, even outside of the talks of like a quote-unquote "deep state" or, you know, unelected bureaucrats running the government? Like, is there something even deeper at play that's sort of transnational?

• 3:13:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, the answer is yes. I'm sitting here in this facility. People don't realize if I push a button, it's all Putin. My call, right now, this minute.

• 3:14:07Jesse Michels?

  You could call Putin right now, this minute?

• 3:14:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:14:11Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 3:14:14Jesse Michels?

  You have a direct line to him right now?

• 3:14:18Speaker 03

  Yes, because, you know, I told his story of writing an essay about him. I'm writing a second version of that.

• 3:14:28Jesse Michels?

  Yep. And they were trying to establish a back channel and Obama shut down the back channel that...

• 3:14:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:14:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:14:38Jesse Michels?

  We've probably never needed this back channel more than we do today. Harold understood Putin's psychology. And with tensions between the US, Russia, and China running high, Harold's deep expertise on nuclear game theory and his former close friendship with conflict escalation expert Herman Kahn would be eminently useful.

• 3:15:10Speaker 03

  I was identified early as the person whose name they were familiar with, the chess player. And it builds slowly. In 1982 or something, I was with Kissinger and George Shilson, a couple of other people in Moscow.

• 3:15:34Speaker 03

  As an age, we were invited to watch the ballet. And we came and we were going to be seated in the czar's box.

• 3:15:49Speaker 03

  And Kissinger, as usual, marched ahead of everybody and went to the seat of the czar. And one of the KGB people said, "Henry, not tonight, not tonight. That seat is for Dr. Melvin."

• 3:16:10Speaker 03

  And he said, "What? There must be some misunderstanding." He said, "No, no, we know him. He is the shadow of his actual.

• 3:16:22Speaker 03

  You are not one of the world's great chess players. You may think you are, and he may not be yet, but he comes from that bloodline. And in honor of him, he will sit in that chair tonight." Now, it was intended humiliation of Kissinger. Yeah, Kissinger must have not been very happy.

• 3:16:43Speaker 05

  I think he melted down.

• 3:16:45Speaker 03

  I was already at war with Kissinger on other issues. He really got pissed off.

• 3:16:52Speaker 03

  He tried not to show it, but it was out of proportion. Preposterous.

• 3:16:59Speaker 03

  Anyway, yeah, he didn't forget it. I didn't forget it, but I never rubbed it in.

• 3:17:06Speaker 03

  As the Soviet system was collapsing, the Russian Republic was falling together.

• 3:17:16Speaker 03

  And Yeltsin became the first president.

• 3:17:24Speaker 03

  At that time, 1992, I was invited to a meeting in Saint Petersburg, Russia, by the mayor of Saint Petersburg.

• 3:17:39Speaker 03

  And at that time, the deputy mayor was Vladimir Putin.

• 3:17:45Speaker 03

  And a number of Americans from business and diplomats

• 3:17:55Speaker 03

  and top Soviet officials, outgoing, incoming Russian officials, heavily loaded with what they call the SEALAVIKI, the security people, who were looking for new careers.

• 3:18:14Speaker 03

  And so, gathering, I don't know, seventy-five, maybe up to a hundred people in a hall as the meeting opened before, you know, when you have drinks and before you sit down and all that. And somebody comes to grab me, and I recognize him, Yevgeny Primakov. Now, Primakov, who was he? He was officially National Academic Council or something. It was an official body supervising research in all fields. And he was in charge of Asia, from China to the Middle East.

• 3:18:57Speaker 03

  But he had known KGB connections. In fact, many people thought he was actually official. Anyway, I had met him in earlier years.

• 3:19:13Speaker 03

  And he grabbed me by the elbow, then marched me over, said, "Somebody you need to meet."

• 3:19:22Speaker 03

  And he introduced me to Putin.

• 3:19:25Speaker 03

  He said, "This man is rising. He will soon be very important in Russia. You should know him." Now, I knew enough to realize that that was not an accidental meeting. Primakov looked for me, found me in the crowd, brought me over. It was intentional. Now, Putin was standing there talking to Kissinger. He did know Kissinger. And Primakov says, "Excuse me, Henry, but Vladimir needs to know someone else." Kissinger looked at me and said, "How the hell did you get into that?"

• 3:20:09Speaker 03

  Anyway, he drew me away from Kissinger. Kissinger believed he was the only channel, and it was through Primakov. But Dobrino may have done this more than me, but I had a channel directly with the Russians. At his choice. And, but he introduced me to Primakov. When I went to Moscow, Primakov wanted to get to know me. I was treated not as partisan of anything, but as someone who should be trusted

• 3:20:54Speaker 03

  to carry an idea, explore it, and get an answer back. It's something different. I was very mindful of not getting cross-minded with our intelligence system. Kissinger thought he was the number-one communication channel between Russia and America, in the back channel. There's a history of why he and I had conflict. A very elaborate history.

• 3:21:27Speaker 03

  Because of my assignments and his predilection, it all really related to the large role in US trade legislation that had a restriction on opening trade relations with Russia because of the Russian treatment of immigrants, of Jews, from Russia to either to the US or to Israel. And for a while, I worked for the Senate. The Senate, Abe Reberkoff,

• 3:22:07Speaker 03

  was the senior Jewish political leader in the American system. And as Abe told me, Jake Jammit is my partner. He's number two. And the chief executive of seeing rooms in New York is the treasurer. It's a structure. We give guidance to AIPAC and other bodies. But we represent the Jewish community. And I want you to take on the task of negotiating with the Russians about this issue of Jewish immigrants.

• 3:22:52Speaker 03

  I said, "Amen, they're Jewish." He said, "I knew that. I've been looking for someone like you for a long time. It had to be somebody who didn't have Jewish grandmothers or grandfathers or cousins. I didn't want family quarrels in the middle. I wanted someone with clean hands. You're the first person I've met who's as smart as us Jews." Oh, gosh. So I said, "Well, I think that's enough." We had a laugh about that. And I did. Actually, the intermediary. In fact, I was sent...

• 3:23:31Speaker 03

  "Из Дерусовского и был обретен Моисейом, Синбетом. И, по-моему, я получил несколько дней полного объяснения, какое было дело между Исламом и США в тёмном мире интеллекта. Стартовал САИ. Кто я? Но, вы знаете, я работал по запросу старшего политического фигура в исламской сообществе, поэтому никто не должен смешать меня. В любом случае, русские были впечатлены, что я был вынужден делать это, среди всех различных

• 3:24:15Speaker 03

  людей, которые могли. Так что все это было в игре в фоне. Так что, каким-то образом, старший субъект Гард, работая с Еллисоном, сказал: "Путин должен быть Херроу. Мы не понимаем Херроу, он всегда появляется в важных местах." "Да, ты как Зелег или что-то такое." "Да."

• 3:24:41Speaker 05

  "И тогда вы действительно диновали с ним один на один. Вы обсуждали с ним, вы говорили о том, что вы узнали из этого отношения."

• 3:24:51Speaker 03

  "Вы можете найти... Я написал, в то время, как войну в Украине... Я написал мои впечатления о Путине."

• 3:25:04Speaker 22

  "Сегодня, основываясь на результатах референдума, который прошел в Крыму, опираясь на волю народа, вношу федеральное собрание и прошу рассмотреть Конституционный закон о принятии в состав России двух новых субъектов федерации: республики Крым и города Севастополь."

• 3:25:28Speaker 00

  You should look up, they're unheard. I wrote two essays about Putin.

• 3:25:37Speaker 05

  You should feature them on, just a little link to them because they're very important. There's so much, it's like...

• 3:25:44Speaker 00

  As I said, I didn't meet Putin by accident. They arranged for me to meet him. They did not ask me to write, but I did. I wrote what I thought he was up to when he was reading he was. I didn't criticize him, praise him. All I said was, "This is his state of mind." He liked the two essays that I wrote.

• 3:26:10Speaker 05

  Really?

• 3:26:11Speaker 00

  How do I know? Because he read them.

• 3:26:24Speaker 00

  I said, "Everkah, I'm now going to push a button. I saw the Prime Minister of Japan." And he had a couple of answers. I said, "What?" Then, seconds. The Chief of the National Security Council in Tokyo. "What do you know?"

• 3:26:57Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 3:26:58Speaker 00

  "As to the book."

• 3:27:00Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 3:27:01Speaker 00

  "So happy to talk with you. Is there something you believe our president should do?" And I said, "Yes." "I've given him counsel to improve his speech in English. And he's made leaps and bounds. So, I would like you to tell him from me to fly to New York. Give an address to the General Assembly."

• 3:27:50Speaker 00

  He called the Good Morning America and asked for seven or eight minutes interview.

• 3:28:00Speaker 00

  And I said, suddenly,

• 3:28:04Speaker 00

  your president will become badly

• 3:28:10Speaker 00

  an entirely new figure in the eyes of Americans. Because instead of being some media, media intelligence

• 3:28:25Speaker 00

  of leading robots to cross America.

• 3:28:33Speaker 00

  They'll see him, young people, young people, journalists,

• 3:28:41Speaker 00

  young staff members in Congress. They'll all see his face and they'll hear his voice.

• 3:28:51Speaker 00

  And sure enough, suddenly, he was everybody's friend.

• 3:28:57Speaker 03

  When I went from DOD to Lyndon Johnson, I arrived in October sixty-four. I get called over by a general counsel.

• 3:29:17Speaker 03

  LBJ wants you to go on a very secret mission

• 3:29:24Speaker 03

  to Tokyo.

• 3:29:28Speaker 03

  To me, it's already arranged. I had no but, it's already arranged. You will meet the Japanese prime minister. He will be accompanied by some Japanese named Miyazawa, whose English is perfect. He's an official in the cabinet. Miyazawa recently was prime minister. Anyway, so I said, okay, what do I do? He said, you will remain to take it. You do not tell anyone in your agency what you're doing. You just take some days off. Chris Hutter knows. He approved it and he said you're just the right person. Who knows?

• 3:30:13Speaker 03

  Chris Hutter. Okay. I was his aide. But no one else knows. Don't tell, don't tell anyone in your agency. Don't tell, don't visit the American Embassy. They don't know you're there.

• 3:30:29Speaker 05

  Don't tell the State Department.

• 3:30:33Speaker 03

  And don't tell anyone. You'll find the entry and exit will be handled swiftly. You deliver this message. And then get an answer. Write it down personally. When you get back, if you want to type it up, it's helpful. But don't address it to the President. Don't say on the envelope, "I is only..." It'll be jaded because then 30 people want to see it. So, and I said, "How do I get it?" Here's the name of his personal secretary. She will expect it.

• 3:31:15Speaker 03

  She will tell them to give her the envelope if it comes. And you deliver it yourself. They're looking in the door. You hand over the envelope. That's it. No return address. Don't have your name on it, date, anything. Okay. Well, the origin of this was the Kennedy people were all over Johnson. The minute he became President, "Are you going to keep all the commitments of John Kennedy?" They said, "What can I do?" And they put pressure on this. I said, "Of course I will." But they said some of those commitments involved

• 3:31:58Speaker 03

  Something I don't agree with was cracking down on imports of foreign nations of textiles.

• 3:32:06Speaker 03

  It's been a delicate subject between Eisenhower administration. We already have this elaborate system for import controls, but I think this is all, you know, just to favor a certain group of people. So I want to guide the dialogue with Japan. So I want to say, I'm not going to argue with you about this. We are not going to have legislation, but I really would like your cooperation to ask the industry to slow the pace of expansion for at least a year or two, so that I don't have to address this.

• 3:32:50Speaker 03

  Well, we had some other issues with Japan at the time. So I met Sato. And so he was quite happy and said, yes, of course. Came back, passed it on. No one ever knows I made that trip.

• 3:33:09Speaker 05

  This is the beginning of what we now know as voluntary export restraints. And it was a means of keeping the peace between the US and Japan on this super politically sensitive issue for LBJ. And the point is that this is often how presidents do things. They don't always use the official system. They have unofficial backtails.

• 3:33:36Speaker 03

  At the time, I asked the general counsel, why can't you use secure lines of communication?

• 3:33:45Speaker 03

  He said, yeah, well, Sigur Hjul is no system, but a lot of people listen to it.

• 3:33:52Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:33:55Speaker 03

  Sigur Hjul doesn't deny CIA access. And then, since Sigur Hjul is part of the army... Most of the military knows whatever goes. So you can't use that. Yeah.

• 3:34:11Speaker 05

  Not to mention the Russians and everybody, anybody else.

• 3:34:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, let's forget to that. We have all these other, you should, you say something, it's just like, if you ever send a message to the president saying, "I is only the president," it's an automatic imitation. Everybody knows. Because everybody will, before the president sees it, they'll have to see it and write a preparatory comment.

• 3:34:39Speaker 03

  I'll give you an example. I was given, when Nixon came in, there was a special commission on the transition, a bunch of papers from Dean Rusk to Johnson. Nixon, you know, Nixon was coming in with a citation, see it. And there was a bunch of papers with a letter from George Ball to the president pleading with, "Let's downsize this whole Vietnam thing before it blows up in your face."

• 3:35:19Speaker 03

  With cover notes that size stapled on from Dean Rusk. Here was George at it again, trying to get in the way of what we must do. I mean, Dean Rusk totally dismissed it of everything. Now, interesting, I was told later, I'm coming out, I know this, by his daughter, Lindbergh, that he really valued George Ball. That he read every memo of George Ball. He thought he was the only guy in the foreign policy system that has brains, especially.

• 3:35:59Speaker 03

  George Ball was always opposed to heightening the war. So.

• 3:36:07Speaker 03

  I mean, I knew the daughter because I dated a girl who was best friends with Linda Bird. So I spent evenings with her and her boyfriend playing cards. So I learned lots of stuff. My own intelligent system.

• 3:36:24Speaker 05

  I'm telling you.

• 3:36:28Speaker 03

  Well.

• 3:36:33Speaker 03

  I'm a human male.

• 3:36:37Speaker 03

  It was sometimes beneficial. I can say over a lifetime.

• 3:36:45Speaker 03

  More not beneficial.

• 3:36:50Speaker 03

  Anyway.

• 3:36:55Speaker 03

  But that

• 3:37:00Speaker 03

  kind of process.

• 3:37:03Speaker 03

  There was no secure way unless you sent somebody. And you can't do it in a way that's visible.

• 3:37:12Jesse Michels?

  Well, I love your, in my research, your name always pops up next to Malmgren, Inc., which I always found like hilariously nondescript and non-threatening and sort of, you know, just extremely generic.

• 3:37:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I never advertised anything specific.

• 3:37:36Jesse Michels?

  You seem to just keep getting, having these interactions with people kind of on the inside. Hmm. I mean, now we're getting to Tripier Territory and who knows if this is correct, but it's almost like a sort of mental network or a network of serendipity or something, where you look at your interactions with Carl Compton as young as you were, and then Richard Bissell saying, it's almost like, I need to tell you this for some sort of unknown reason. And so there's something about that that I find fascinating.

• 3:38:07Speaker 05

  Particularly on nuclear.

• 3:38:09Jesse Michels?

  Nuclear.

• 3:38:09Speaker 05

  And I mean, how many Americans have sat down and had dinner with President Putin and understand how, what he thinks about nuclear weapons and how they might be used, which I think is a story you should tell a little bit about. Because it all goes back to the 13-year-old requesting these documents and somehow ends up. Now, I've been told, but Dad won't confirm. That he worked on preventing a nuclear crisis on more than one occasion. But you've only tell me about one. And, and people in the intelligence world are like, "Oh, your dad is good." What? What's going on?

• 3:38:52Speaker 05

  So, I won't make you go there, but you have met with the leader of Russia on nuclear matters. After all of this that we now know.

• 3:39:02Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:39:02Speaker 05

  This, I think, is related to the subject. And it's important to discuss. And today, do we have a system for de-conflicting the US and Russia? If these things show up? And what is happening practically as we speak? We have unidentified objects flying all over the United States.

• 3:39:23Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:39:24Speaker 05

  Not just in New Jersey.

• 3:39:25Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 3:39:25Speaker 05

  Over nuclear facilities, over weapons arsenals. But it's happening globally.

• 3:39:30Jesse Michels?

  And the speculation on the people deepest on the subject, people like Robert Hastings, who wrote an amazing book called UFOs and Nukes, and all of his whistleblowers, almost 170 who work, they have Q clearances at these atomic sites. Their intuition, you could just, you could say a whole host of things as far as why these UFOs show up. You could say they're offensive, which I just don't believe because they haven't really done too much that's offensive. They've done really nothing.

• 3:39:55Speaker 05

  Well, we shoot at them, but they don't shoot at us.

• 3:39:57Jesse Michels?

  They don't shoot at us. So, so all of their first intuition as to why these UFOs show up around our most sensitive sites is because they're trying to show us that our ways are, are, you know, too brutal and we're gonna blow ourselves up and to, to kind of make us think about higher things. And so, I don't know if you guys think that, but...

• 3:40:18Speaker 03

  No, I think, I think that's what it's all about. Plus, if we get too serious with nuclear explosions, we can do lasting damage to the, to the shell of the earth.

• 3:40:35Speaker 03

  You may plumbing deeper and deeper into the center. I mean, we don't know what happens if you start.

• 3:40:43Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's an optimum of radiation necessary for evolution to occur.

• 3:40:49Speaker 03

  Awesome.

• 3:40:50Jesse Michels?

  Because you have, you know, this kind of intersection between the magnetosphere of the Earth, which actually dictates biological morphology on a pretty fundamental way, and UV radiation, which creates the genetic mutations necessary for natural selection, differential selection. And you are messing with this sort of equilibrium every time there's a nuclear spill. And the really interesting, crazy part is you have a town in Japan, next to the Fukushima prefecture called Lino, and it's dedicated to UFOs. And like, over 50% of the residents all believe in UFOs. There's a museum dedicated to UFOs. And there, during the spill, they say the UFOs came down, they helped clean up the spill. This monk who guards this temple in Japan. And so it's just fascinating.

• 3:41:35Jesse Michels?

  It's like they're the stewards of the Earth.

• 3:41:38Speaker 03

  They may well be.

• 3:41:42Speaker 03

  It begins with an opening question.

• 3:41:47Speaker 03

  As I said, I've felt all the way along these unexpected interrelated events.

• 3:41:58Speaker 03

  There was a message to the madness somewhere. And my mother telling me, just keep doing what you're doing.

• 3:42:07Jesse Michels?

  You have a purpose.

• 3:42:08Speaker 03

  You have a purpose. And you may not know it until the end.

• 3:42:14Speaker 03

  But, well, I may be approaching the end all along. My doctors say I will outlast my mother. She lived to 100.

• 3:42:22Jesse Michels?

  Wow. What's, yes.

• 3:42:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, but my doctors say, no, you have no physiological problems. No troubles with your knees and hips and all that stuff.

• 3:42:36Speaker 05

  I had 89, to be clear.

• 3:42:38Jesse Michels?

  You're already lasting longer than most of my interview subjects, so.

• 3:42:50Speaker 00

  Kennedy had a point.

• 3:42:53Speaker 00

  Christian, her former governor of Massachusetts. So, you know, I was familiar with New England. The first Friday, I came to the office. So I said, "Why am I here?" I asked for it.

• 3:43:17Speaker 00

  And I said, "Well, who had a record?" I said, "The day that you met President M. I. T.

• 3:43:30Speaker 00

  That day, your name was in all the important books of talent." CIA keeps.

• 3:43:40Jesse Michels?

  That, that, that who keeps?

• 3:43:42Speaker 00

  CIA.

• 3:43:44Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:43:47Speaker 00

  And not only CIA, but, you know, all of Majestic, all the guardians. They, they also have ourselves to protect the world. So, so you were, you were chosen.

• 3:44:03Speaker 00

  And when you were brought here, I asked you to come to me.

• 3:44:09Speaker 00

  And to work with me. So you are on a track.

• 3:44:15Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:44:16Speaker 00

  It's not, not for anyone to understand the world, how the world works.

• 3:44:24Speaker 00

  It is.

• 3:44:33Jesse Michels?

  Could Harold have been using the moniker Majestic in its counterintelligence context? Absolutely. But he used the word so secondhand, so casually, that he was clearly speaking about some genuine group, in my opinion. A group probably related to continuity of government and contingency plans. Contingency plans for general catastrophes like nuclear events, not just extraterrestrials. These sorts of committees have gone by many names. 5412, the 303 Committee, the Committee of Forty. And they probably involve subcommittees we'll never know the names of.

• 3:45:13Jesse Michels?

  On our drive to the hospital, with his oxygen hovering at unsafe levels, Harold maintained the cheeriest of attitudes and could not stop telling stories about his past. There was so much he wanted to get off his chest. We discussed the fact that Putin was trying to set up a diplomatic back-channel with Harold in 2009, but that Obama shut that prospect down. We talked about Harold helping Shoyshiro Toyota set up the Toyota headquarters in Kentucky. We even talked about the fact that Harold was one of the first people on Earth to break the four-minute mile after Roger Bannister. Apparently Harold could repeatedly break the four-minute mile in his twenties.

• 3:45:53Jesse Michels?

  Right as we got to the hospital, we got into trippier territory. Harold said he was engaged in deep research around the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Townsend Brown. We discussed Brown's obsession with time travel, because gravity is linked with time and general relativity. We talked about how Townsend Brown really believed he had found a missing puzzle piece for time travel. I then asked Harold about the existence of a coordinated group trying to deliberately affect timelines. A very talkative Harald Malmgren went noticeably silent.

• 3:46:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, Harold, I want you to take care of yourself, man. And I know we've been talking for an hour now. And I wish I could be with you in person. And I miss you, man. And I want you to just get better. You know, yeah, I really hope you rest up. And you have my number, so you can call me at any time if you ever need help with anything.

• 3:46:50Speaker 00

  I'm looking out of here, please, please.

• 3:46:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:46:57Speaker 00

  And my health is good.

• 3:47:00Jesse Michels?

  Good.

• 3:47:01Speaker 00

  I'm having good people out of my way.

• 3:47:07Jesse Michels?

  Under the pseudonym Chase Brandon, a CIA agent turned Hollywood liaison, wrote a book in 2012.

• 3:47:16Jesse Michels?

  The book discusses a celestial object that telepathically communicates with its recipients. The object also relays critical information about future timelines.

• 3:47:29Jesse Michels?

  A secret committee is brought together by synchronicities and extraterrestrial beings that seem to know about every one of its members. The committee are an elite group of military and scientific thinkers designated to deal with the issue of non-human intelligence. The main character of the book is a mathematical whiz kid named Chalmers, who is plucked by the head honchos of the Office of Strategic Services, and then this special committee. He helps the committee navigate the future of humanity and manage complex timelines. He's also taken in and out of a liminal timeless dominion, where he's taught important things

• 3:48:07Jesse Michels?

  by other worldly beings that go to determine his purpose in life. The common trope in the book is that Chalmers had a purpose. It was a deeply installed, driven purpose, even if it was subconscious. The first page of this book quotes Francis Bacon: "Truth is so hard to tell, it sometimes needs fiction to make it plausible." "When Harold called me again prior to his passing, I thought I'd bring up time travel one last time."

• 3:48:47Jesse Michels?

  Harold, do you think your life is connected with time travel in any way?

• 3:48:53Speaker 00

  I've thought about this many, many times. And my answer is yes. Nothing else explains. When I go into that MIT professor, I didn't have the slightest inhibition. I was talking as if I knew something. I don't know why I knew it. I know it. And in fact, what I didn't say was...

• 3:49:32Speaker 00

  Breaking through, with no knowledge at that time. So, if you ask me, did I have a purpose? Yes.

• 3:49:47Speaker 00

  Now, my mother was a most remarkable person. She read books like there's no tomorrow. She read so many books.

• 3:50:03Speaker 00

  And she kept saying to me, "You have to understand, you cannot decide by yourself.

• 3:50:15Speaker 00

  You were given knowledge, there was a purpose. You have to pursue your purpose."