King's Advisor Reveals What the Royal Family Knows About UFOs

Our American Alchemist this week is Jonathan Caplan, a King's Counsel, prominent British barrister, and UFO researcher with over 50 years of experience investigating the phenomenon. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! QUO: Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months at https://www. Quo.com/JESSE QUALIA: Curious about creatine? Go to https://qualialife.com/JESSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code JESSE. iRESTORE: Unlock your best skin with @iRestorelaser and save on the new Laser Face Mask Pro! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at https://irestore.com/AMERICANALCHEMY. #irestorepod #ad Grab your American Alchemy merchandise here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- Jonathan joins Jesse to reveal the British Royal Family's surprising history with UFOs, including Prince Philip's private investigations and his aide's alleged encounter with a telepathic non-human intelligence. They examine the controversial Majestic 12 documents, Britain's role in UFO secrecy, alleged CIA crash retrieval operations, and claims connecting the JFK assassination to extraterrestrial intelligence. Jonathan also shares an extraordinary personal memory of life before birth, raising questions about reincarnation, consciousness, and the nature of reality. They explore what non-human intelligences might want from humanity and why governments may never fully disclose what they know. Check out Jonathan's new book, “Not For Disclosure: UFOs, The World's Best Kept Secret” https://www.notfordisclosurebook.com/ --------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] --------------------- TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Cold open 2:50 Introducing Jonathan Caplan KC 3:55 Prince Philip, Flying Saucer Review and palace witnesses 7:53 Peter Horsley meets the mysterious "Mr. Janus" 11:19 Lord Mountbatten and Dorothy Kilgallen's crashed-saucer story 13:32 King Charles, Dan Costello and the European royals 15:52 Why elites care: Maslow, the Rockefellers and Eric Walker 18:50 Haim Eshed and the "Galactic Federation" 24:32 Majestic 12, the Truman directive and Forrestal's diary 28:23 Sponsor: Quo 29:28 Britain's secret Flying Saucer Working Party 33:35 The death of James Forrestal 35:50 CIA crash retrievals: Varginha, Peru and Five Eyes 42:38 David Grusch, underwater bases and Villarroel's orbs 49:14 Paul Hellyer and the pioneers: Keel, Friedman and Mack 51:17 Douglas Caddy, Howard Hunt and Watergate 52:33 Sponsors: Qualia and iRestore 55:09 Was JFK killed over UFOs? 1:00:37 The "burned memo" and Lancer 1:02:37 Stanton Friedman and John Mack 1:05:46 Caplan's pre-birth memory and the cycle of life and death 1:13:22 Robert Hastings, Marco Rubio and credible witnesses 1:18:25 Why now? The debunkers: Condon, Hottel and Menzel 1:25:42 Their agenda: abductions, mutilations, Valensole and Timothy Good 1:33:29 Will the UK ever disclose? Trump and what counts as disclosure Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Jonathan Kaplan. You are a member of the King's Council.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  One of my tasks was to deliver each copy of the magazine called Flying Saucer Review to Prince Philip. They would interview witnesses to significant UFO events at the palace.

• 0:45Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 0:46Jesse Michels?

  Elite families seem to have this long history with the topic. The Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO research. In the 90s, they were funding John Mack and Stephen Greer. Dan Costello said that he saw King Charles flying in a saucer.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  This very esteemed Israeli scientist called Haime Shed, talking about crashes, the acknowledgement of non-human intelligences, talking about agreements with terrestrial governments.

• 1:20Jesse Michels?

  He says that an elliptical craft was discovered in Comanche Point in the Grand Canyon.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:26Jesse Michels?

  And so, there's all these conspiracies about why parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted zones. We've had 30 UFO crashes to date, bases on Mars.

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:35Jesse Michels?

  With humans and ETs.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  We've flown to Mars. We've already been there.

• 1:39Jesse Michels?

  You lend a lot of credibility to the majestic 12 documents.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  The 1st of October, 1947, Sir Henry Tisdale, the chief scientific advisor to the UK Ministry of Defense. He sets up a secret flying saucer working party. That working party report is then published, and it says that this subject should be given as little publicity as possible.

• 2:02Jesse Michels?

  And we know that that's a fact. The Tisdale Working UFO Group.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, some of those documents refer to the Kennedy assassination. And I know that is a highly contested document, basically saying that Kennedy is interfering too much in our activities, and we need to do something about it.

• 2:19Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  And the odd thing about this phenomenon is a surprising number of people have got some experience to tell. I did have a memory, which appears to be a memory before I was born, seeing a craft return and speaking to people who had come off that craft. I wasn't allowed to go on it. And then I had two beings who showed me my parents and told me I had to be born again.

• 2:43Jesse Michels?

  When you say born again, it was...

• 2:45Speaker 02

  I had to go back. An experience I had, which has stayed with me. I have quite a strong recall of the first 48 hours of my life.

• 2:52Jesse Michels?

  What do you think the link is between UFOs and life and death?

• 3:08Speaker 03

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 3:20Jesse Michels?

  I'm here with Jonathan Kaplan, who is a prominent trial lawyer, a barrister, who's written an incredible book. It's called UFOs: The World's Best Kept Secret. And it's an incredible, I'd say, kind of macro, big history book around the UFO topic. It does a lot of sense-making. There are all sorts of really interesting tidbits I want to dive into. You are a member of the King's Council, and rumors are that you've had some interactions, possibly with the royal family, around this issue. So there's so many things I want to dive into. Thank you for being here, Jonathan.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Thank you, Jesse, for having me.

• 3:56Jesse Michels?

  I'm really excited. So why don't we just, you know, I sort of teased people with that intro there. Talk about the fact that you are a member of the King's Council. I think people with your sort of conventional credentials aren't often into UFOs. It seems like you have some reason to believe that people at the highest levels of British politics, you know, even, you know, symbolic figureheads like the royal family are interested in UFOs. Is that right?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, I can't speak about living members of the royal family. But when I became involved in this subject 50 years ago now, I was working on the editorial board of a magazine called Flying Saucer Review, which we became quite well-known. It had correspondents like the young Jacques Vallée and others on it. And one of my tasks was to deliver each copy of the magazine to the equerry to Prince Philip. And Prince Philip, he's no longer with us, was very interested in this subject. So was his equerry.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  And on occasions, they would interview quite key witnesses to significant UFO events at the palace.

• 5:12Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:13Jesse Michels?

  So Prince Philip would bring in witnesses to significant UFO events and personally interrogate them?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  No, his equerry would. It was obviously with Prince Philip's consent and full knowledge. And then his equerry would prepare a transcript and a report, and they would discuss it.

• 5:34Jesse Michels?

  That's wild. What are examples of cases?

• 5:38Speaker 02

  Well, there was a famous case involving a BOAC Strato Cruiser with Captain Howard. I remember that was one case.

• 5:46Jesse Michels?

  Explain to the audience, what is BOAC?

• 5:48Speaker 02

  So BOAC was the old terminology for British Airways. And there was a case involving a plane coming from New York, and a flying saucer had sighted by the passengers and the pilot on that plane. And they were very keen to find out more about it. And Captain Howard bravely, in those days, reported the sighting, because pilots were pretty much penalized if they did that back in the 1970s, 60s.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  Ten of us, the entire crew and some of the passengers, watched this object for 18 minutes. And I think there's no question that it was no illusion, and that it was being intelligently handled.

• 6:32Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And so, there's a sighting, and then Prince Philip asked to learn more, essentially, through his equerry?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Yes, his equerry would find out more. And he was, his equerry, of course, was great friends with people who were on active service in the Royal Air Force. They would tell him of sightings that the Air Force was having. And, yep, they wanted to collect a database, so they could have discussions and keep up to date with what was a fascinating phenomenon even then.

• 7:09Jesse Michels?

  What were the exact details around this British Airways sighting?

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I don't honestly remember the precise details of that case, except that a flying saucer was reported by Captain Howard to have followed the aircraft for quite a while.

• 7:23Jesse Michels?

  Any other prominent cases that Prince Philip seemed to inquire into?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Yes, there was a case involving two schoolboys in Derbyshire who took a photograph of three UFOs. That photograph showed three flying saucers, and they wanted to speak to the boys and find out more about the circumstances in which they took the photograph.

• 7:48Jesse Michels?

  How do you think Prince Philip got interested in the subject to begin with?

• 7:52Speaker 02

  Well, I think he was a very open-minded individual, and he was obviously in touch with people in the armed forces. And of course, the Air Force were obviously a significant part of his duties, and he would have had contact with very senior Air Force officers. So I think probably through talking with them. And his equerry then went on, which he wrote about in a book called Sounds From Another Room, to have a rather strange experience, which was that he was invited by an army

• 8:37Speaker 02

  general to go to Chelsea to meet a lady called Mrs. Markham.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  And she had wanted to meet him to discuss the UFO situation and he went. And when he got there, he found a man in a rather dimly lit room, who was introduced as Mr. Janus, who then proceeded to ask him about Prince Philip, and then to ask him about what he knew about the topic of UFOs. And the equerry then said, well, from then on, I knew he could read my mind. And he was telling me a lot of secrets, which I had learned through my position as being a member of the Royal Air Force and through my life in the palace.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  And I realized that this was a man to be reckoned with. And Mr. Janus's objective was he very much wanted to be introduced to Prince Philip, whom he described as a man who was obviously very keen on ecology, who was very open minded and who would be a great ambassador for the human race. But the equerry then became rather nervous, obviously left and made a note, as contemporaneous as he could remember it, of that discussion in which Mr. Janus told him quite a bit

• 10:08Speaker 02

  about advanced civilizations and how they were very keen to develop another race and to help that race progress and to save this planet. And that note obviously would have been taken to Prince Philip, but he decided against making an introduction, although he did go back to try to contact Mrs. Markham later and she had moved.

• 10:38Jesse Michels?

  Wow, fascinating. Who do you think Mr. Janus was?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Well, Sir Peter Horsley, who was the equerry, clearly thought that he was an extraterrestrial or a non-human intelligence, let's say. He said extraterrestrial at the time because that was the focus for the pilots of these craft as they understood it in those days. And probably he may have been because the, he certainly was communicating with Peter Horsley on other levels besides vocally and letting him know that he had quite advanced psychic powers. And I suspect it was a genuine attempt to try to meet Prince Philip.

• 11:20Jesse Michels?

  So one of Prince Philip's chief aides openly writes about "meeting with a person," quote unquote, "who seems to know a ton about UFOs and ETs and then even read his mind." And he himself speculates that this person is actually non-human.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. He formed that view pretty quickly. And he could not have written his book without Prince Philip's approval.

• 11:45Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Wow. Okay. Well, that's very interesting. Who is Lord Louis Mountbatten?

• 11:52Speaker 02

  So Lord Louis Mountbatten is a, was a senior member of the royal family. He was, he was actually killed on his boat when it was blown up by the IRA. He was, he's our current king's uncle. And he too was interested. And there are many stories about his interest. He served in the Royal Navy during the war. And a craft was supposed to have landed on his estate at Broadlands and to have been seen by the gardener. And Lord Mountbatten was supposed then to have interviewed him and again to have passed that to Prince Philip.

• 12:34Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. And, and did he sort of help get Prince Philip interested in this subject or?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  I don't know which way around that interest started, but they were clearly both interested. And funnily enough, you can go forward to a journalist who figured quite prominently in UFO history later, a, an American journalist called Dorothy Kilgallen. She died in very mysterious circumstances. She was a friend of Marilyn Monroe. She was a friend of the Kennedys. And she wrote an article when she was stationed in London in 1955, which for its day was quite surprising because she said that she had been informed by reliable sources

• 13:25Speaker 02

  that a craft had crashed and that there were small humanoids aboard the craft and that she'd been informed by a very senior cabinet member. Now, nobody quite knows who her source was, but Tim Good, who's a friend of mine and of course has written a number of excellent UFO books, has speculated, and I've gathered from another source, or I can't be quite certain, that that source was Lord Mountbatten.

• 13:55Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Whoa, interesting. So he might have been familiar with actual crash retrieval.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  He could well have been, yes.

• 14:01Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. And do you think King Charles is interested in UFOs?

• 14:06Speaker 02

  I wouldn't be surprised.

• 14:07Jesse Michels?

  Um, why can't you talk about your current interaction?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I wouldn't talk about any living person about their views. I think those are personal.

• 14:18Jesse Michels?

  Because there are rumors that he's interested.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  I believe so, yes.

• 14:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Fair enough. There's even, we were talking earlier, there's a UFO researcher out here named Mark Christopher Lee. He made a whole documentary about UFOs in the royal family. And in it, he interviews this guy, Dan Costello. I don't know if you've heard that name. He was this guy who was, he was a diver in Nova Scotia on what he claims to be some top secret project. And he said that he saw King Charles flying in a saucer. And he's been in the room with some of these royal family members and I don't know what to make of it.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  Well, I, I'm afraid I don't know what to make of that either.

• 15:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's pretty wild. But the royal interest in UFOs, it doesn't occur in sort of a vacuum. Like, I think a lot of European elites seem interested in the subject. A royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams II, is also interested in UFOs, so much so that, you know, he's in photos with Bob John, who was, you know, running the Princeton Anomalous Engineering Research Center pair and with Hal Puthoff. And I believe Ed May, who, you know, helped run the psychic spy program for the CIA, has stories with the royal prince of Liechtenstein. So I think there is, there's some, you know, connection there.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  I think there is. I think that the European royals have got a tradition of being interested in this subject. And without going too far on a limb, I think the same is true in Monaco.

• 15:53Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. So why do you think that?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  Well, just from conversations I've been privy to and I've listened to. I think that's the case.

• 16:02Jesse Michels?

  And what, can you say anything more?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  No, I just think that, that they have an active interest.

• 16:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And is any of this public? Have they said anything? Okay. So they might have an active interest as well. Interesting. And then where do you think the interest stems from? Do you think it's one of those things where it's like, if you've fulfilled the lower end of Maslow's hierarchy, you know, you got food and all this sort of basic subsistence level stuff down, which obviously any member of the royal family does, you can start to deal with eschatology and life on other planets visiting us and that sort of thing. Or is it a more intimate connection? And do you think they sort of try to commune or contact these things or might have an asymmetric view into the technology?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  I don't know of any actual contact desire or attempts. But I guess, once you don't have to deal with the daily problems, you know, your mind is freer to range about to the possibly greater issues. And I think, probably I think there's a discussion amongst.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Different royal families and different families of wealth. Could talk about the Rockefellers, you can talk about others. Um, uh, and, uh, this is a topic, uh, which has interested them. I mean, who are we? Where have we come from? Uh, what do these sightings signify? Um, I, I think this is not just dinner table talk. I think it's something that they're deeply interested in.

• 17:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, Eric Walker, who was president of Penn State and he was rumored to be on the majestic 12. In fact, one of, um, Van of our Bush's sort of top, you know, research guys, Robert Sarbacher, who's an atomic energy expert, said Eric Walker.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:57Jesse Michels?

  Uh, was privy to Wright Patterson Air Force Base at the time, Wright Airfield debriefs on the UFO issue and, and knows all about it. And a couple of researchers, um, you know, walked into his office and spoke to him.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  William Steinman, I think.

• 18:10Jesse Michels?

  Bill Steinman, exactly. And Scott Crane. And they were asking him about, you know, UFOs. And he said, uh, elite families seem to have this long history with the topic and know all about this. And so I find that to be very interesting, along with the fact that you have, you know, Chris Mellon is at the, you know, forefront of the conversation in the U S. He's obviously like, I believe, one of the sole heirs to the Mellon family fortune. And, um, the Rockefellers funded a lot of UFO research. Um, in the nineties, they were funding John Mack and Stephen Greer. So they were all kind of all over this topic.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with that. And, uh, I, I think there is a tradition of being interested in this subject. And, um, yeah, I mean, um, Eric Walker and Sarbacher, as you say, were, um, uh, linked to, well, uh, Walker was anyway to MJ 12. And, um, yeah, I don't know how, how officially linked they are, but privately they certainly are linked and I think have been prepared under certain circumstances of privacy to invest in finding and acquiring greater knowledge.

• 19:20Jesse Michels?

  You talk about in your book, a very accomplished Israeli official who has all sorts of accolades, uh, you know, when it comes to, uh, Israeli defense. Uh, in fact, kind of set up the equivalent of the Space Force in Israel, uh, saying all sorts of really interesting things about UFOs. Do you want to talk more about that?

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Sure. So, um, I think it's probably back, going back now about six years. A book was published, I think in December, 2020 by a, uh, astrophysicist called Haime Shed. He was really the father of the Israeli, uh, space industry and, um, had been responsible for the early Israeli satellites. And in a book, um, beyond the horizon, which has only ever been published in Hebrew or Everett, uh, the last part of the book deals with, uh, his comments on UFOs, crashes and what he's learned about the subject.

• 20:23Speaker 02

  And at the, it was co-authored in fact by an Israeli journalist called, um, uh, Hanar Yagai. And he then, at the same time, gave one interview, um, just prior to publication to an Israeli newspaper. And that interview went actually even further than book and talked about agreements between the United States, uh, one or two other countries and a federation called the, what he called the Galactic Federation. So basically you have this very esteemed Israeli scientist talking about crashes, talking about, uh, the acknowledgement of, um, non-human intelligences, talking about agreements with terrestrial governments.

• 21:08Speaker 02

  And it was pretty astounding. And that interview, um, in the newspaper, uh, pretty much like David Grusch's evidence to Congress in July, 2023, went around the world. And I thought, well, um, I must make some contact in the Israeli Space Agency quickly. And I went to, uh, Israel to try to contact him.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  And extraordinarily, he went completely to ground. He wasn't answering the phone. He wasn't answering emails.

• 21:45Jesse Michels?

  Had you been in contact with him before that?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  No, but I, I got a very senior contact in the space agency, uh, to work on my behalf to try to contact him. So I contacted his co-author, Hagar Yanai, and she said, I really can't speak about the book at all. And I can give you no interviews. So you've got this extraordinary situation of, uh, this book being published, neither, um, Esched or, or, uh, Yagai wanting to give any interview. And in fact, closing down completely. And the book has never been published in English. And I got it translated. And it is very interesting.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  And it not only deals with crashes that are not well-known in the literature, but it deals also with, um, his interpretation of photos taken from rovers, which we've sent to Mars, uh, picking out signs of intelligent life. And it speaks also about, uh, as I say, these agreements between the Israelis, the English, the Japanese, and one or two other countries with the Galactic Federation. Now, the only problem is, um, that we just don't know, uh, what his source of information was. And therefore it's very difficult to evaluate what he said.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  I spoke at the time.

• 23:12Jesse Michels?

  Well, presumably he would be the source of information. If you're that high up in the.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  He was, but then you want to know, well, okay, so were you briefed by, um, of, of, American intelligence officials or counterparts in, uh, NASA? How did you acquire this information?

• 23:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Cause he says, he says some really out there stuff. I'm combining the press interview he did and his book, but he says that an elliptical craft that was found in 2000 B.C. was discovered, or sorry, was dated to 2000 B.C. was discovered in Comanche Point in the Grand Canyon.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:48Jesse Michels?

  And so, and there's all these conspiracies about why, you know, parts of the Grand Canyon are restricted zones. And so he sort of like.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  He does.

• 23:54Jesse Michels?

  Attempts at an answer at that. And then, uh, we've had 30 UFO crashes to date. And, uh, he says, yeah, we have agreements with the Galactic Federation. And then he talks about, uh, bases on Mars.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:07Jesse Michels?

  With humans and ETS.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  He says we've, we've.

• 24:10Jesse Michels?

  Underground bases.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  We've flown to Mars. You've already, we've already been there.

• 24:12Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Um, so I guess that throws back obviously lots of questions. Um, you know, well, how, how is the, uh, you know, the reverse engineer, how successful is the reverse engineering program been? Are we in some kind of agreement with some non-human, uh, intelligence that will allow us to use their craft? What is Navy Space Command? And all these questions are of course, you know, up in the air.

• 24:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  And we can speculate about it. But I, obviously I, I, I say in my book, treat this a little bit with caution because unless we know the mechanism by which he, uh, purports to have acquired this information, we just can't evaluate it.

• 24:59Jesse Michels?

  I think that's right. I think that's right with a lot of UFO research. And I was reading your book and you lend a lot of credibility to the majestic 12 documents, which are these documents that were sort of released in tranches from the eighties to the nineties that described this sort of elite military intelligence and science committee under Truman and Eisenhower that deal with the UFO issue. And my understanding is that they were released as kind of a counter intel initiative under James Jesus Angleton, who is this long time, you know, spook, Allen Dulles acolyte in the U S who, you know, professionally lied and liked to throw people off the trail and that sort of thing. And yet you note that there are some things in those documents that line up with real

• 25:43Jesse Michels?

  historical artifacts, diary entries that came out years later, uh, which is fascinating.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Um, I'm perfectly willing to subscribe to the view that some of those documents might not be genuine, but I am firmly of the view that the vast majority of them are. And first of all, let's just take the argument that these were some counter intelligence exercise by Angleton. And there's another gentleman that's mentioned who's still alive, a certain Admiral who I won't mention perhaps on live, who's supposed to have been part of this exercise.

• 26:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, who's that?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  I was, Bobby Inman is supposed to.

• 26:20Jesse Michels?

  Oh, part of that.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Allegedly. I mean, this is what people say, whether it's true or not.

• 26:25Jesse Michels?

  Who says that?

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Well, I've heard it from a number of people and I'm not saying it's true for a minute.

• 26:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  That's, that's a rumor that has gone around.

• 26:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  But I, I really don't buy it. Um, so first of all, let's just look at this as, um, a counter intelligence exercise.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  If Roswell happened, if a craft was recovered, as I'm firmly convinced it was at Corona, if it was then the subject of a highly classified reverse engineering program, and that is your biggest secret, one of the biggest secrets in the United States, the last thing you are going to do is to give credence to the discovery of that craft and of the reverse engineering programs that have been set in train.

• 27:16Jesse Michels?

  Maybe or maybe not. Well, can I give you my counterargument? So the 60s and 70s saw peak distrust in the American government. You have, you know, the Church Committee, you have Watergate, you have Pentagon Papers before, you know, both of those things. And you just have a lot of irreverence and distrust of the American intelligence apparatus. And so in the 80s, I almost think there was like a deliberate strategy on behalf of, you know, CIA and sort of bodies like that to flood the zone. Because they realized they weren't seen as, you know, good narrator, you know, solid narrators anymore. And so what they put out would inherently be doubted.

• 28:01Jesse Michels?

  So if you actually put out the truth or put out things that are adjacent to the truth, you're sort of inoculating the public against, you know, actually believing it. Whereas if some irreverent open source person were to preemptively put it out, then, you know, people might actually believe it, but I don't know. What do you think?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I still think you're going to protect this. You're not going to.

• 28:20Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  But there's other, actually independent evidence. So the Truman Directive, which initiated MJ12, was allegedly signed on the 24th of September, 1947. And you can go to Truman's diary, you can go to Forrestal's diary. I don't think Bush has one that's available. And you'll see at 11:30 AM on that date, the three met. Doesn't end there.

• 29:24Jesse Michels?

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• 30:28Speaker 02

  You can go to Truman's diary, you can go to Forrestal's diary. I don't think Bush has one that's available. And you'll see at 11:30 AM on that date, the three met. Doesn't end there. I looked at Forrestal's diary even further. Go one week on to the 1st of October, 1947. And there is Forrestal meeting with Sir Henry Tisdale, who is, or then was, the chief scientific advisor to the UK Ministry of Defence. So he and Bush are meeting with Tisdale one week later.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  And there are then, during the month of October, further meetings with three other senior British Air Force officers. Forrestal, sometimes Eisenhower, sometimes others. What then happens? Tisdale comes back to London. He sets up in the Ministry of Defence, a secret flying saucer working party. That working party report is then published, but only one copy. And it says in the preface to that report, only one copy of this report is being published for Sir Henry Tisdale, following the lead from the Americans

• 31:53Speaker 02

  that this subject should be given as little publicity as possible.

• 31:56Jesse Michels?

  And we know that that's a fact. The Tisdale Working UFO Group, a few weeks later. That's wild. That's really interesting. So you have this sort of chain of events from Forrestal to Tisdale. That's amazing.

• 32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, that, I think, also, I think you've then got to look at the detail. There's a lot of majestic documents, which are memos, letters, that serve no counterintelligence purpose. And you look at the personnel involved in those memos. People like James Ley, Richard Drain, who I've looked at through the CIA reading room to see who they were. And these guys were very closely involved with committees that were actually looking at UFOs. And James Ley actually received from John McConne,

• 32:48Speaker 02

  the director of CIA, an award, really for serving on a project which had multi-agency involvement. And it all, all of these documents really tie in with the UFO enigma. And you look at the minutes of other meetings that they were concerned with. There's UAPs, UFO engagement in those minutes. And they just seem like the real guys.

• 33:20Jesse Michels?

  And so I believe Dulles also, his diary came out, you know, only a few years ago or something. And there was an entry there that was consistent with the Majestic 12 document. Is that right?

• 33:30Speaker 02

  I don't have that to mind immediately.

• 33:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I believe so. Very interesting. Yeah, Forrestal's fascinating. He was obviously, you know, Assistant Secretary of the Navy and then I think Secretary of the Navy. And then he ended up Secretary of Defence. And I believe the Majestic 12 said he was killed over the UFO issue.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  Yes, and I've looked at that. By the way, I should just add that as far as MJ12 is concerned, of course, you have got other independent corroboration. For example, you've got Eric Walker, who you mentioned earlier, who was approached by William Steiman in a taped conversation. I think it's taped, at least of contemporaneous notes. He says, yes, I know of MJ12. I've worked with MJ12. And you've also got, I think it's Alonso McDonald, who confirmed to Eric Davis recently, yes, that MJ12 existed.

• 34:27Jesse Michels?

  Well, I believe Alonso McDonald was also supposed to be in Jimmy Carter's brief on UFOs.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. But going back to Forrestal, that is again, a very interesting adjunct to the MJ12 story. Because he became, I would say, slightly unstable and certainly mentally exhausted. And Truman then dispensed with his services as Secretary of Defence. And as we know, he was admitted to Bethesda Naval Hospital. And the day before, he was held in isolation. Even his brother had difficulty in seeing him. His priest, Monsieur Sheehy, who Forrestal very much wanted to see, would never gained access.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  And his brother arranged for him to be released after about six or eight months. And he was quite satisfied, as was his wife and son, that he was in good health. And the day before he was released, I think the Saturday night, he was due to be collected by his brother on the Sunday. He was found on a flat roof below, having allegedly fallen out of a window on the 19th floor, I think, with a bathrobe cord tied around his neck. That's the day before he was due to be released. And so obviously the question arises, well.

• 35:56Jesse Michels?

  And it was midway through transcribing Sophocles' poem.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, correct.

• 36:01Jesse Michels?

  Which like, why would you stop midway through your transcription and then jump out of the window? And I think the bathrobe, also part of it was like tied to the radiator in the bathroom, which doesn't make sense.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Makes no sense as a way to kill yourself. There was a naval inquiry, which was held behind closed doors. Because it was a naval institution, there was no inquest. I think the broken glass was found on the floor on a rug in his room. But they called no family members. And his brother was convinced that Forrestal was murdered.

• 36:36Jesse Michels?

  The official story, the cord slipped off the radiator and he just plunges to his death. Let's look a little more realistically here. How difficult would it be? Couple of big tough Navy guys or big tough young guys grab him and throw him the hell out the window. You mentioned also the office in the CIA that is responsible for UFO inquiries. Do you want to mention that here?

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, there's the, I mentioned a number of offices actually in the CIA.

• 37:07Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  And one of them is the Counterproliferation Mission. Is that the one you had in mind?

• 37:16Jesse Michels?

  I did, but also Office of Global Access for global crash retrievals.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  So that's renamed now. The Office of Global Access has now been renamed. And that basically is an office which has always existed, as far as I understand it. And its purpose is to either collect items from difficult jurisdictions or to drop people or items in difficult jurisdictions. And therefore I think it was an existing facility which was lent to the purpose of crash retrievals. Now, there are two, I think, very clear examples or credible examples of that office going into work.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  One, of course, we, most of us know about the case of Vagina and the crash of a.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Uh, UAP there and the recovery of at least one live alien. And an American plane landed at Campinas and collected the craft and the alien. Now, I think there are moves afoot at the moment to try to recover the airport logs in relation to that airport. But that seems almost certainly to have been an event that occurred. There is so much evidence now that has been uncovered.

• 38:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I interviewed the Brazilian Defense Minister and he was like, yeah, I think this happened.

• 38:45Speaker 05

  Of course I believe him. Why wouldn't I? Believing that a phenomenon like this exists, of course. The testimony of totally credible witnesses. Same goes for the doctor and the military officers. They had no reason to make it up.

• 39:00Jesse Michels?

  And there we have fifteen to twenty witnesses who are alive today. We have, we've triangulated the flight path of the UFO itself. James Fox has done an amazing job documenting all of this stuff in Moment of Contact. And there's, you know, the chief neurosurgeon of Virginia says he was face to face with the alien being for four minutes. If you go to the hospital, Regia and Alice, where the being was treated and you say, is this the, you know, hospital that treated the being? They say, yes, this is, this is that hospital. And so it's one of these things that's very hard to explain away, especially at a, in a town of a hundred and thirty thousand people that wasn't like mired in Americana UFO lore, you know, like they didn't have any priors to bias them towards hallucinating something like this.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  And indeed, I mean, one of the emergency rescue staff actually died. And I can't remember his name at the moment.

• 39:54Jesse Michels?

  Marco Sherezzi.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Yes, and they did um, uh, uh, uh, an autopsy report on him and I think have discovered the um, form of um.

• 40:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, bacteria that was way too strong.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:08Jesse Michels?

  It was anomalously strong and even the guy who was the president of the actual autopsy company, the provider, IPD, I think his name is Janini, he's on record saying, yeah, the nail of the ET penetrated the skin of Sherezzi and that's what ended up killing him. And he was telling his whole family, his family believes that he died because he apprehended this ET being and it poked him or whatever and it accidentally sort of killed him. Uh, so that, yeah, there's so much corroboration for that. It's just fascinating. And I actually interviewed the guy who did the autopsy. Um, yeah, Armando Fortunato. And he was like, yeah, I think this is totally legit.

• 40:52Speaker 05

  The infection he had is extremely rare, not impossible. A scratch or some sort of contact with an extraterrestrial shouldn't be ruled out.

• 41:05Jesse Michels?

  So that's one case.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 41:07Jesse Michels?

  And then there's another case, which depends very much on the word of the individual, but he's very compelling.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Uh, which is the case of Jonathan Wiegand in Peru, where he was sent, he was on, on um, duty in Peru at a, at a, a, a station and was sent to the scene of what they understood to be a downed aircraft. And of course, it was discovered a teardrop shaped object and felt the presence of the occupants. And no sooner had he arrived there, it was clearly a no craft he'd ever seen. Um, but um, soldiers in fatigues arrive, as do the Department of Energy. He is um, taken under arrest, threatened, ultimately released. But I think very likely, uh, and I believe his evidence is credible.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  That is another instance of a craft being covered this, recovered this time from Peru via the same process.

• 42:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think he was a marine and it was Operation Laser Strike. And he saw this egg shaped craft in the side of this mountain and then an arm was hanging out. And he, and he walked up to it and he, he felt like this telepathic connection with the beings and a lot of pain and, which is a common sort of trope. And yeah, he was, he was, I think, then uh, really kind of intimidated. And I think he's never been kind of mentally the same since.

• 42:29Speaker 06

  I felt this presence, that it's real strange. I guess it was almost like, I think they were trying to communicate with me. Like, I guess telepathically, it's, it's like basically sitting in your car and turn on like a AM station, you know, it's just white noise and it's turning up really high.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  And my, my understanding is that, um, so I was just, that obviously, I, I'm not sure that this is done, obviously, presumably by arrangement with those particular governments. It's not landing and taking a craft, although I believe they've done that. Uh, this is obviously by negotiation. Either they're paid or they get access to information later. I don't know. But I think um, many countries, and I suspect this is true of Five Eyes, uh, defer now to the American experience and ability to deal with the many problems that surround crashed craft and possibly biologics. And my understanding is that in the Five Eyes countries,

• 43:27Speaker 02

  um, there will be special forces of those countries, but who work under American command and will go and isolate an area and wait for the Americans to come in to pick it up.

• 43:38Jesse Michels?

  How does this subject gain sort of broader appeal? Because it, when you talk about this stuff, on the one hand, it seems like the most important thing ever. You're like, oh my God, there's like technology that's far more advanced than us, that's in the hands of the government. They're not letting it out. There's also, you know, possibly species beyond, beyond just mankind. And then on the other hand, uh, it feels kind of goofy. It's like, what are you talking about? You know, and it feels sort of like divorced from normal geopolitical discussions. Like if you're talking about like the Strait of Hormuz, that has real implications for, you know, oil prices globally and stuff.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  And I mean, this is very difficult because the, the, you know, the, the traditional question, do you believe in UFOs? Uh, it was so far beyond that. And now when you have this discussion, you have got to deal with concepts that are so, I was going to use the word alien, but let's use another word, that are so um, bizarre to most people. And you're talking about crashed craft. I think it's a little easier to deal with those because of David Grusch's live testimony to Congress. And because people have come forward from the intelligence um, agencies since just to say, yes, uh, we are in possession of crashed craft.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  And I think it is an open secret now that these special access projects exist in the United States with Lockheed Martin, with Northrop Grumman, with Raytheon, that Lockheed wanted to transfer a craft to Bigelow Aerospace. All of these things now have, I would say in the last three years, come within just about uh, the terms of acceptability and normal conversation. But then, of course, they're pushed even further because you'll note from David Grusch's interview, we're now talking about firefights with um, uh, you know, um, uh, different species.

• 45:34Speaker 06

  US personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying and so.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  So US personnel was killed by these reptilians.

• 45:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  My whole purpose in writing the book is that I really wanted to uh, have an informed debate and based on reliable evidence and to involve academia. And um, I think that is absolutely fundamental because this process of um, degrading this subject since the nineteen forties, since Truman's directive, has been so successful that, you know, you know, very intelligent people like I do who have no knowledge of this. They don't have a, they have no reading list, they don't know where to go. And there's plenty of good material to read. There's no syllabus or course to get hold of or sign up to.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  So we do need to widen um, this if we're going to actually, you know, permeate society and get some proper disclosure through um, open debate. But the discussion is getting wilder and I'm not saying it's not true. Uh, I suspect, and I think David Grusch, by the way, is a very credible witness, but we are getting wilder.

• 46:47Jesse Michels?

  Oh yeah. I mean, on Joe Rogan, he said that he saw a video of Nordic beings, aliens that looked like bluish in, in, you know, dye and, and this sort of firefight or whatever. And then he saw this sort of fight between gray aliens.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  And reptilians.

• 47:05Jesse Michels?

  And, and reptilians and the reptilians are in these Tic Tac crafts and it is very wild. It's like, uh, okay, I wanna, I wanna see the evidence on that. It's pretty, pretty gnarly. But then you compare that to his background and, I mean, David Grusch, while he was in, in government, was handling the Presidential Daily Brief. So what the president saw every day, you know, that, that was his job to handle. You know, he was very high up in, you know, National Geospatial Agency. He was very, you know, well thought of by a lot of colleagues like, you know, Carl Nell, who, who helped set up Army Futures Command, which is, you know, they're, they're kind of, all of their modernization efforts was in,

• 47:43Jesse Michels?

  you know, Army Futures. Um, so this is not like some guy who's, you know, honorable discharge, you know, wacky, like, you know, left government and, you know, then took a bunch of drugs or something and started making stuff up. He's a, he's even, you know, has a, I think, uh, is on the spectrum somewhat and he has, you know, I think the, the mildest form of, of autism, uh, but he is really just detail oriented and has, you know, so many, like prosaically is actually very, very intelligent when it comes to just normal, you know, conventional programs and technology and science and very high IQ. So.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  And I think his uh, recent interview um, really has opened up another subject. And we're talking about, I mean, undersea underwater bases is something which has been talked about for a long time. And everybody has spoken about a base possibly off Santa Catalina Island because so many craft have come out of the water and gone back. He's talked about others. Uh, and as you will recall in the interview, um, you know, the size of city blocks. Now, once you start talking on that basis and craft coming and going at huge bases under the water, if that's right. And you're talking about also the number of orbs that we're seeing, um, you know, um, around the globe. You're talking about the work of

• 49:03Speaker 02

  uh, Dr. Beatrice Villarreal in thousands of uh, anomalous small objects which are uh, reflective and um, appear the day before and on the day of significant events, twenty-six thousand miles in space. Because these flashes that we see and these short flashes and not streaks, there are. Associated with things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective. Wow. Like mirrors. We are really now not just talking about visitors um or people that may coexist in some secret society. We are talking about an operation on a pretty grand scale and this becomes even more alarming, I think.

• 49:48Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Yeah, or maybe it's just been going on for a long time and we're now waking up to it like the the rest of the population is sort of waking up to.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Well, we're waking up to it, but it's it's on a scale I don't think many people envisaged.

• 50:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I mean, my bias would be it's not like a it's not like a new thing that's happening. It's been going on for forever.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 50:07Jesse Michels?

  We're sort of it's being revealed. But speaking of very credible people who are into UFOs that you've, I believe, had firsthand interactions with. Uh, tell me about Paul Hellyer, the former Canadian.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  So, um, yeah, I mean, I've I've so as as as I I said, I I've been involved in this um. Since, uh, well, late six late six late sixties, early nineteen seventies. And I've been very privileged to meet a lot of the brave pioneers, let's put it that way, in our subject. Uh, Paul Hellyer was fascinating. He was um Minister of Defence of Canada. And by the way, I spoke to him just before he died in relation to Escher's claim. And he thought the Americans would be pretty, if I may say so, pissed off, obviously. But he didn't believe the Galactic Federation. That didn't quite ring true to him.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  But equally, going back, I mean, uh, meeting people like John Keel, um, John Mack. Um, Stanton Friedman has been a fantastic privilege for me. And to see how this subject has progressed, how the viewpoint about the subject has just grown from. What was in the seventies regarded as an entirely uh extrater- extraterrestrial uh phenomenon. To John Keel saying, well, hang on a minute, this isn't extraterrestrial. This is something that is uh trying to uh fool us and it it's something that is uh operating at a different frequency to us.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Uh, and it is sending uh false signs in the sky uh to Stanton, of course, who then discovered. I would say he discovered Roswell, although um he he certainly was one of those that discovered Roswell. To people like John Mack, who then saw the reality of the abduction phenomenon, which nobody knew what it was, but Matt. You know, an experienced professor of psychiatry came to the conclusion these were real experiences. So all of these things um are, you know, slow additives and open our. Understanding to um greater levels.

• 52:16Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Yeah, you also interacted with Douglas Caddy. Who was uh Howard Hunt's lawyer, Howard Hunt being this famous CIA spy who was involved in Watergate. And, you know, a lot of other scandals uh was not, you know, uh, didn't have the best reputation among the public. But apparently there was this exchange with Caddy and Howard Hunt about JFK's assassination.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Having to do with UFOs. That remark uh has been published before, but um uh as you say, uh, Caddy was originally. Hunt's lawyer and he was the original lawyer for the Watergate burglars. But um a judge ordered him to disclose where he got his instructions and he said, no, hang on a minute, that's legally privileged. So he was, in fact, um, uh, convicted of contempt and had to step out. But Howard Hunt remained very grateful to Douglas. And just before Howard Hunt went to serve his prison sentence at Eglin Air Force Base. He took Douglas um out for dinner.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  And obviously Douglas was very keen to know, well, how, oh, why'd you break into the Watergate building, you know? And uh, uh, what was this all about? Why was and why was Kennedy killed?

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• 56:39Speaker 02

  What was this all about? Why was and why was Kennedy killed? And um he then told them that there was a reason that they they thought the Cubans had documents relating to Kennedy's assassination. And that Kennedy was killed because he's about to reveal the alien presence. Now, this is the very, I think about nineteen seventy-five. So immediately you have to think, well, hang on, what evidence was there in those days? Uh, that Kennedy was uh knew about aliens to so that he could reveal it. Killed, uh, uh, so Howard Hunt was a CIA operative. Are you saying that the CIA, uh, he knows the motive because. Of his CIA background, the CIA was involved in the deaths. And funny enough, the more.

• 57:23Jesse Michels?

  Well, the CIA was, to me, was definitely involved.

• 57:25Speaker 02

  Oh, there's no question. There's no question. And I've drilled down into that. Um, the Rockefeller Commission actually suspected it but didn't find evidence. But there's clear evidence, actually, that Hunt was involved. And there's clear evidence that a CIA contractor called John Sturgis was involved. And I've spoken to the police officer in the sixth precinct who went to arrest him. Uh, for threatening the life of Marita Lorenz, who said that he and Hunt were involved. And he confessed, um, um, uh, Sturgis confessed to this police officer that he in fact had been one of the gunmen in Dallas. And funny enough, a jury uh who sat to hear a libel action.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Which Hunt brought against a newspaper called Liberty Lobby for saying he was involved, found against Hunt. And the jury foreman who was interviewed outside afterwards, uh, said, well, why'd you find that? He said, well, because the CIA killed Kennedy and Hunt was involved. So, I mean, there's a whole track record of this and evidence, and I'm quite convinced the CIA killed Kennedy. I think it is a very strong case uh that this was to do with a UFO subject.

• 58:33Jesse Michels?

  What's what's the case? Because the Kennedy thing almost feels like this Rorschach test where it's like. The, you know, anti-Soviet, anti-communists say it was the Soviets or the Cubans, you know, some people say it was the mob. You know, anti-Israel people say that, you know, it's like you made them a. Registered foreign agent or something. And then you have, you know, uh, the UFO people saying that it's it's about UFOs. So what what concrete evidence?

• 58:59Speaker 02

  So, yes, I mean, so you're absolutely right. Um, was it the Cubans? Was it the mafia? But um, I think uh that uh it's rooted in this fact that Kennedy.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  Was obviously alarmed and perturbed by the Bay of Pigs. And he wanted to ensure that there was no possibility of a U A P being misidentified as an incoming ballistic missile. And to achieve that, there had to be some form of association or agreement with the Russians on this, which would involve sharing information about U A Ps. Now, we know that that is very likely true, and that was his view. Because in nineteen seventy one, surprisingly, we, there was really, we, we know that there was

• 59:56Speaker 02

  an agreement between Russia and the United States about this subject. You know, if you see a U A P, please let us know, you know, don't misconstrue it as a, as a, as a missile.

• 1:00:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you can look up the.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  If it sets, sets off your detection systems, let us know straight away because, you know, we've got a hotline for this. So I, I think that agreement reflects backwards on Kennedy's concerns in the early sixties about this issue. And he wanted a, a sharing of information. And you've got to remember that the CIA had.

• 1:00:33Jesse Michels?

  Is there any evidence he wanted that?

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  I think there is. I think there were those memos to Angleton and Dulles in nineteen sixty one and nineteen sixty three, in which he's calling for that, and indeed to NASA, asking them to, CIA to share with NASA more information about.

• 1:00:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so if anyone can look up right now, the Salt One Treaty, there is literally language between, you know, the U S and the Soviets in nineteen seventy one, saying, you know, we have to coordinate on unknowns in our airspace to make sure that, you know, uh, false alarms don't trigger some global destructive, you know, thing. There's a treaty that we've signed with the Russians, which basically assures them that we will consult on U A Ps, on UFOs. I believe there's also a letter, but of kind of unknown provenance between JFK and John McConne, who was acting CIA director after he filed, fired Dulles. And he's saying, um, you know, yeah, we need to coordinate, we need to talk to NASA.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:01:35Jesse Michels?

  And get all the data from NASA about unknowns and then coordinate with the Soviets on this. And to me, that is like the most important letter to figure out whether that is real, because it's dated eleven, twelve, sixty three, which is ten days before he was assassinated.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Correct. You're right. Yes, Dulles had gone by then.

• 1:01:52Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. So if that, if that was real, that is just.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:01:56Jesse Michels?

  Massive. And then if it's not real, like, you know, that we should, we should totally discount that and figure out what the motive for constructing something like that was.

• 1:02:06Jesse Michels?

  But yeah, it's really fascinating.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  I've also looked, actually, at the original. I don't know how many people have of the burned memo. And I know that is a highly contested document, quite rightly so. The burned memo is, is a memo which one of the so-called counterintelligence officers who was leaking documents allegedly saved from the flames after Kennedy's death. And it came from Angleton's safes, allegedly, because Angleton didn't put documents into the CIA registry system. He tended to have a system about forty or more private safes, which had to be blown after his death, and it had to be gone through.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  And we do know, by the way, from official documentation, which McConne refers to, that some of those documents refer to Kennedy, to this Kennedy assassination. But this particular document is, is a memo from M J one to some of the other members of M J twelve. And it, it is basically saying that, look, Kennedy, they used his code name Lancer, is interfering too much in our activities. And, you know, we need to do something about it.

• 1:03:21Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Jesse Michels?

  That's wild.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Well, not in those words, I'm paraphrasing, but it is to that effect. It's clearly to that effect. And I've looked at the original, it, it's a, um, on paper, it's got a watermark. The Woods, Robert and Ryan had it examined, I think, by Speck in Laboratory. It certainly is paper of that period. The inks are paper of that period. And, um, uh, you know, prima facie, although we haven't got a CIA control sample with a watermark, it looks prima facie to be a potentially genuine document.

• 1:04:05Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, hmm. What was interacting with Stanton Friedman like? You know, he's seen as this sort of godfather of UFO research and very just hard-headed.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  He was a remarkable guy, actually. And so I had a number of dinners with Stanton. And indeed, I've got a letter which he wrote to me very soon after he discovered, he'd had this conversation about Roswell. And very soon after, he got, I think, one of the first majestic, some of the first early majestic documents, in which he says, look, you know, keep this to yourself, but this looks as though it's going to be big. And he was very committed. He left his job, um, uh, um, to pursue really the UFO phenomenon.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  And he really toured the United States and some other countries, speaking on this subject. So I don't know financially how he was maintaining himself, but he was extremely committed. And, uh, you know, wrote, um, huge amounts about the subject, traveled extensively. And the kind of person who was an early pioneer of this subject that you really rarely find. He, he, life and soul, he was committed to finding out more about this. And Roswell obviously became a, a major part of his life.

• 1:05:36Speaker 06

  This subject of flying saucers represents a kind of cosmic watergate. That is to say, some few people in the governments of the United States, Canada, undoubtedly many other countries, have known since July nineteen forty seven, that some UFOs are extraterrestrial spacecraft.

• 1:05:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and he was a nuclear engineer at Westinghouse prior.

• 1:05:55Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:05:56Jesse Michels?

  Definitely not somebody you could say was dumb or, you know.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Not at all. A very smart guy.

• 1:06:02Jesse Michels?

  And liked to debunk things too, liked to kind of separate the wheat from the chaff, was not one of these sort of everything is everything believer types. What about John Mack? So John Mack was the head of the Harvard Psychiatry Department.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:15Jesse Michels?

  And was a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist as well. He'd written a biography of T E Lawrence called The Prince of Disorder.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:25Jesse Michels?

  And just a really interesting kind of polymathic guy. And he got into alien abductions at the end of his life and you were able to meet him as well.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  Yes. So he was in London a couple of times. In fact, sadly, he was killed in London in a, uh, on, on, on a road accident, a walk crossing the road. John was a, um, again, uh, very serious, very committed to this subject. I remember, I haven't actually, actually shared this experience. I am not an experiencer, by the way. I have not, uh, seen a craft. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm really base my, uh,

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  knowledge of this subject on other people's experiences and on evidence. Try to evaluate that totally independently. But I did have a memory, which is rather bizarre. And it's not one I dwell on because I don't want it to interfere with my

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  evaluation of the evidence. But I, I did have a memory which appears to me to be alarmingly, I don't, I, that's, this is what it appears to me to be a memory before I was born, of seeing, of being in a place, I'm not quite sure where it was, and seeing a craft return and speaking to people who had come off that craft. I wasn't allowed to go on it. And asking how people were on Earth, people told me it's fine. And then I had two beings who showed me my parents and told me I was, had to be born again. I wasn't very keen on that idea, but I was told I had to.

• 1:08:07Jesse Michels?

  When you say born again, it was.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  I was had to go back. And I was shown my parents and I was told I had to go back.

• 1:08:13Jesse Michels?

  But it was as if you were leaving Earth?

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  No, I was somewhere in a space, um, which seemed very nice, and I really didn't want to leave that space, but I was told that I had to come back.

• 1:08:23Jesse Michels?

  Why back though?

• 1:08:24Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:08:25Jesse Michels?

  Presumably you had lived some life on Earth already.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  But all I'm saying is that this is an experience I had, which has stayed with me from, and I have a, quite a strong recall of the first forty eight hours of my life.

• 1:08:39Jesse Michels?

  That's remarkable.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  It is remarkable. And then as, as the plug was pulled, I, I'm not ascribing anything to this, except it's a memory, but it's something I discussed with John Mack. And, um, uh, he was interested in it and we talked at length about it, actually.

• 1:08:53Jesse Michels?

  What, what did the beings look like?

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  I didn't see them. They were behind me.

• 1:08:57Jesse Michels?

  And what did their presence sort of feel like?

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Presence was, you, you have no choice, uh, sorry.

• 1:09:04Jesse Michels?

  Did you sense what their relationship was to you?

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:09:09Jesse Michels?

  And why did you think that they thought you had to go back? Was it like they were?

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  Because I was just told my parents were expecting me and I had to go. Now, that, that's rather bizarre. But if, and I don't actually extrapolate from this experience, because I don't want to, it's not something, it's something I put in a, in, in a, a separate area and leave there and ponder about. But if you were to extrapolate anything from it, and you were to consider, let's say for a minute, that I did have a communication with a craft coming back and being people on it who had come back to Earth to check on things, then I guess that might lead you to a conclusion that this phenomenon is linked to the life and death cycle.

• 1:09:56Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it might be?

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Actually, I do, but independently of that, I do, yes, it could be. But that could be some, a personal experience, which for me, might give some personal credence to it. I've got no evidence for that, but I do think, yes, that this phenomenon is part of a much bigger, um.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  Subject, uh, existence, environment in which it encompasses life and death as well.

• 1:10:26Jesse Michels?

  What do you think the link is between UFOs and life and death?

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  Um, well, I mean, if you remember that, and I don't know whether this is true, and I'm only repeating what many, uh, abductees have been told, you know, that your body is a receptacle for the soul and nothing more. And, uh, it may be that, um, you know, that, you know, it is the constant redistribution of souls and different, uh, stages and in different, um, times. And that that has, that, that, that redistribution has a purpose. And, uh, we have, a number of us have to come back with your soul into this physical body.

• 1:11:13Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. And so UFOs themselves would be like.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  A control mechanism, possibly. But I, I'm, I, obviously there's nothing like this is in the book. You asked me about John Mack and that prompts me to a memory of a discussion I've had. And I don't want to base, and I don't base anything on that because.

• 1:11:31Jesse Michels?

  Have you thought of getting a hypnotic regression and going deeper into the memory?

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  I haven't done that, actually. No.

• 1:11:36Jesse Michels?

  I think that would be interesting. I mean, the fact that you remember it so vividly is fascinating.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  I do, yeah. And I remember, actually, something else I do remember is, um, being in my room as a child and a woman, a woman's voice loudly, um, recounting the Lord's Prayer in my bedroom. I must've been four years old. And I thought, oh, uh, I can hear the,

• 1:12:03Speaker 02

  uh, little girl down the street saying her prayers. Of course, I couldn't because that was way down the street. And again, you know, if you were to try to extrapolate something from that, maybe, um, uh, if you link that to what people say as well, you know, if you are in the presence of a being and you want to get rid of it, you know, mention the Lord's name or something. Maybe that was a protection. I don't know. I think everybody has experiences. And the odd thing about this, uh, phenomenon is you speak to people and a large number of people have an experience, uh, maybe similar to what I've said. Maybe they've seen a craft. Um, maybe they've seen orbs, but a surprising number of people have got some experience to tell.

• 1:12:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I would say going farther and say they've either have an experience or a bunch of synchronicities or some autobiographical reason as to do their research. And oftentimes people get into these topics because of the stigma of the topic. They have to say things like, oh, well, you know, I've never tried this myself, or I've never had any of these experiences or whatever. And it's, it's just, um, humans are irrational. We're all irrational, even, you know, accountants are or whatever. And you're, you like, you get into things due to your own idiosyncratic personal reasons. And there's, it's impossible to sort of separate that entirely from some objective analysis.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:29Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. You know what it makes me think of when you, you're like, I'm choosing my parents and I have to go back and you have these beings is this sort of, uh, you know, Plato's myth of air where you experience, you know, this sort of, the life and death cycle is, uh, you know, you have an amnesis where you, you have your, you have your soul self, but your soul self is sort of dipped into a body and you forget your, your former primordial soul self. And Plato himself actually went through rituals, you know, the Eleusinian mystery rituals, which, uh, you know, where he, it's called noesis, where you, you gain knowledge of your primordial soul self. But there's something about, um, you know, entering down into, into earth, this sort of fall of man where

• 1:14:14Jesse Michels?

  you, you forget what you were. But maybe you got, you, you remember a little glimmer of, of what you were.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  I do. It's just always been with me. And, um, that's why I think it's a memory. It's certainly not a dream which you forget. It's a, it's a vivid, I think it's a memory.

• 1:14:29Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. Do you think it's a coincidence that you remember that and that you're interested in UFOs?

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Well, you know, funnily enough, um, uh,

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  I, I think there's a lot of people, maybe, um, we are all led, possibility, maybe we are all led into this by various different devices. And, um, Robert Hastings, for example, and, uh, I can't remember the name of the book, but he's written a book actually, which he was very reluctant to write.

• 1:15:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's called Confessions.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Confessions.

• 1:15:04Jesse Michels?

  And he's a UFO journalist who wrote a book called UFOs and nukes, which outlines the correlation between UFOs and nuclear weapons.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  But he does describe, um, experiences which he has had from a child onwards. And he comes to the conclusion, uh, I'm not sure it's a conclusion, but he, let's say a provisional conclusion, uh, that, um, maybe those experiences, uh, were instrumental in leading him to write this critical book on UFOs and nukes. And that he was led, that this was all part of the process.

• 1:15:41Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's the, what's so weird about this topic is the deeper you go, it's, you, it's like a Hydra. You cut off the head, you get five in its place. So like, um, I always, you know, if I have, you know, famous skeptics on the show like Michael Shermer or something, I'll bring up Robert Hastings' book, UFOs and Nukes, because I think it's essentially a database and a book. It's, you know, all these guys, 167 of them, I think now closer to 170, who are, you know, often they have secret clearance, sometimes top secret clearance. Uh, in certain cases, they're Q cleared and they have, you know, all sorts of access when it comes, you know, and they're guarding our, our nuclear weapons.

• 1:16:22Jesse Michels?

  And, um, you know, um, they're, they're radar operators, there's, uh, security personnel, and they all see Tic Tac saucers, orbs, things flying around these nuclear sites, sometimes tampering with the nukes themselves. And we have documentation of the tampering of the nukes. Sometimes we have, you know, actual, uh, you know, radar associated. And it's just too much data to totally dismiss and say it's, you're talking about inherently the most credible type of witness, because these guys are all on the, um, personal reliability program where they have to report if they're taking Ibuprofen because they're guarding the crown jewels of defense. So you can't write that off.

• 1:16:58Speaker 04

  In this book, I've identified 13 incidents.

• 1:17:03Jesse Michels?

  Oh, really?

• 1:17:03Speaker 04

  Yes. Where, uh, UFOs have flown over nuclear weapons, storage facilities, or have actually shut down missiles. Um, and those are identified in here with witness names. But at each time, again, there was no damage done to the weapon systems. Uh, they were trying to send us a message. And what could that message be? But get rid of these damn things.

• 1:17:37Jesse Michels?

  And then what's wild is you go deeper into Robert Hastings and he writes this book called Confessions. And he is sort of, you know, uh, following these synchronicities and, and has had all these trippy autobiographical experiences that have led him to cover this stuff. And I think it's impossible to, to separate. And it's almost like you have a world where this stuff doesn't really exist, or it's like epistemically closed off to it. And then you have a world where it's sort of, it's really, it's like infused with a ton of meaning. And I think that UFOs are, deal with meaning a lot. You know, Carl Jung wrote a book called Flying Saucers. And it's all about UFOs, the Sanskrit.

• 1:18:16Speaker 00

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• 1:18:47Jesse Michels?

  You know, um, symbol of psychic completeness. And it's like you're, you're like, you're chasing this like, you know, like, um, kind of hierophony revelation sort of thing. And it never quite comes, but it drip feeds you and you, you sort of run after it.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And of course, you're right. I mean, look at the credentials of those people. I think, uh, Marco Rubio said the same thing, you know.

• 1:19:09Speaker 04

  Stuff flying over military installations and no one knows what it is and it isn't ours. So for me, that's logical. You want to know what it is and it's common sense, right? Stuff's flying over the top of your most sensitive installations and it's not ours and no one knows whose it is. You should find out what it is and tell us.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  You know, we've got these people that are so, we trust them and you know, they've gone through so many checks. And yet we're just, you know, they're evidence we're, we're not giving credence to. We have to.

• 1:19:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he, he'll say to this day, as Secretary of State, what's one conspiracy you believe? He says, I think there are things flying in our airspace that we can't explain. And you know, he's obviously, he's sort of driving American foreign policy right now. He's definitely a real, a real guy. And so I think when people say, oh, it's a psy op or something, that to me is even crazier than just admitting that it's real in some ways. Cause it's the most, it's the most charismatic psy op by like multiple standard deviations, which means it's probably not a psy op. Like, like between UFOs and Bigfoot, it's just such a massive drop off. You don't see anybody in the executive branch talking about Bigfoot. And so what is that? I don't know.

• 1:20:22Jesse Michels?

  And then why, I mean, I think an important meta question is why post 2017 and this New York Times article, taking UFOs seriously, revealing government programs around them. Why has, have we just entered this sort of, you know, craziness period where everyone's talking about this topic? And it's sort of, it is, it is, it has become much bigger.

• 1:20:45Speaker 02

  Because I think people probably have always been inherently interested in the subject. But there's been no real validation for that belief. And everything seems to have been a red flag. And you can go back, for example, to the Condon Committee. And one of the principal paragraphs in the Condon Committee was not only is there nothing to this. Well, this of course, the committee that in 1969 reported and stopped, closed down Blue Book and the USAF

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  investigation into UFOs publicly. And it said, look, it was exhorting teachers to say, do not let your students read books about UFOs. Give them no credit, you know, pass them on to astronomy. And there's always been a diversionary practice. But I think you can see, starting in 217, the New York Times taking it seriously. And I really would rate highly as a watershed moment, David Grusch's testimony. I think that's fundamental. And yes, I think people now have got a license to discuss this without, you know, being regarded as crazy.

• 1:22:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's really wild how almost all of the like super anti UFO spokespeople over the last 70 years have been sort of proven to have a vested interest in debunking this stuff. So I'll give you an example. You just mentioned Edward Condon. Condon wrote, I believe, the first English textbook on quantum mechanics. And he studied at Gottingen with Oppenheimer in the twenties. And so they were long, close confidants. He even helped pick Los Alamos as the site of the Manhattan, Manhattan Project. And he was actually, you know, a part of a lot of civilian open sourcing efforts of nuclear science.

• 1:22:41Jesse Michels?

  And then he, there's this sort of kangaroo court with him and Oppenheimer where he uses his, he loses his cue clearance. He gets stripped of his cue clearance and that's done by a guy named Gordon Gray. He's rumored to be part of the majestic 12. So already you have this sort of, somebody who seems like he's clued into the UFO issue, stripping the cue clearance from this guy who's a nuclear insider. And then there's this guy, Guy Hoddle, who's this FBI field agent, who's doing all sorts of research on Condon in the background. And it's in an attempt to sort of blackmail him. And he finds out that Condon was sort of, you know, hanging out with socialists and Berkeley or whatever. This is during the red scare, you know, in the, you know, in his, in his twenties or something.

• 1:23:24Jesse Michels?

  And they, they create this entire dossier on Condon. And then they, they give him his cue clearance back. And he's even in an interview, he's like, you know, they just, I don't really know why they gave me my cue clearance back. It's like, they just, they just came to me one day. And I believe Don Menzel, who's another MJ 12 member, his underscudy, a guy named Lou Branscombe, hands him his cue clearance back. And then he's, he's sort of tasked with doing this hit job against UFOs. And so you have to ask, was he sort of blackmailed by Guy Hoddle to like, you know, stigmatize the entire issue? And the reason I think he might've been is Hoddle actually is responsible for the most viewed document on the FBI's website. And it's about UFO crash retrievals.

• 1:24:09Speaker 00

  The memo's all of two paragraphs. Agent Guy Hoddle, then head of the FBI's Washington Field Office, writes that an Air Force investigator stated that three so-called flying saucers had been recovered in New Mexico. They were described as being circular in shape with raised centers, approximately 50 feet in diameter. Not only that, each one was occupied by three bodies of human shape, but only three feet tall, dressed in metallic cloth of a very fine texture. Each body was bandaged in a manner similar to the blackout suits used by speed flyers and test pilots.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  That's the one to Hoover.

• 1:24:44Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. And it talks about an Air Force staff guy literally coming into contact with, you know, crew of a, of a UFO, you know, presumably non-human intelligence and in a flying saucer, I think 50 feet wide. And then directed energy, having taken this thing out of the sky, high-powered radar, which is, it seems like there's a lot to that with modern testimonies like Jake Barber. But even going back then, like, you know, Frank Scully and, and, and the Aztec crash. And so you have this very clear picture with like historical debunkers where like they have a clear vested interest to stigmatize the thing. And I don't know, it's, it's really fascinating, but we still, we get like, we're, we're so brainwashed, you know, we don't, we're not good at thinking for ourselves.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  No. And Hoddle, of course, was, well, you've mentioned it, the, the, the memory right to Hoover. And of course, Menzel was the one who recommended Condon to chair that committee.

• 1:25:40Jesse Michels?

  Ah, that's interesting. There you go. Yeah. And that makes sense that Lou Branscombe at Harvard gives him his cue clearance back because, you know, he's working for Menzel. And Menzel was caught destroying astronomical plates.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:55Jesse Michels?

  In the fifties, which is now you have, you know, Beatrice Villarreal at Stockholm University, finding all sorts of transient UFOs in the, at the Palomar Observatory, which was, you know, contemporaneous with the Harvard Observatory. So.

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  And she discovered actually a very interesting autobiography by a woman called Doreen Hoflight, who was studying or working with Menzel and describes actually at the time, the destruction of the plates.

• 1:26:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's fascinating. And then he, he like, why would you? If UFOs are fake, why would you care to write? He, he wrote all these, you know, I think one or two books that were.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  He wrote certainly one book on flying, debunking flying saucers. And Hillenkotter wrote congratulating him that this should be the end of anybody associating flying saucers with any non-human intelligence.

• 1:26:46Jesse Michels?

  That's weird that Hillenkotter wrote to him because didn't Hillenkotter then go on to join NICAAP, which was the first civilian research UFO group? That's interesting. He was also director of the CIA during Roswell. So it's very strange. Yeah. And he would say like, you know, it's all temperature inversions and space trash. And you know, I, I don't even think you can say space trash at that point because Sputnik hadn't gone up, but maybe weather anomalies or something. And it's like, well, why would somebody of your sort of stature even lend yourself to this, this, this conversation? If it's, if it's fake, why would you write like sort of a, a debunking book on the whole thing? I guess it was, you know, big at the time. You had Roswell and other things, but.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  And he was very rude about the witnesses to the Father Gill sighting in Papua New Guinea. And he described, I mean, the, the New Guineans who made witness statements in very derogatory terms.

• 1:27:41Jesse Michels?

  That's horrible.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Jesse Michels?

  It's messed up. What do you, what do you think the agenda is of these beings? You talk about this a little bit in your book and.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  Well, of course, that is a, a very big question. And it's something which that I understand, as I said, the counter proliferation mission is, looks at.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  I think you can, you have to stand back from things that we know. So assuming that abductions are real, of course, when you say agenda, we're talking about agendas.

• 1:28:15Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  Because there are obviously different sources of different non-human intelligences.

• 1:28:21Jesse Michels?

  Can you isolate those sources or can we just say that there are factions?

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  I think all you can say is there are factions and there may even be factions within factions. I mean, who, how do we know? But certainly as far as the abduction experiences go, then obviously there seems to be an absurd concern to gather reproductive organs and matters of that kind. So whether or not this is part of a hybridization program, who knows? You'll know John Ramirez, the CIA former officer, has spoken about attending a conference given by the CIA.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  And the archivist, I can't remember his name at the moment, where he explained that there had been a genome sequencing in which DNA from biologics in the 1940s had been compared with DNA from humans. And they'd found the presence of alien DNA or non-human intelligence DNA in human DNA. So what that tells you, are they?

• 1:29:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, the fact that these beings might even have DNA would presumably make them of the same evolutionary chain as us.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. Then he talks also about CIA having an active program looking at hybridization. So maybe this is one element. Then there are some rather dark sides to this phenomenon, which we haven't talked about, but there clearly is, appears to be a dark side to this phenomenon.

• 1:30:00Jesse Michels?

  How so?

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  Well, there's not just evidence of

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  harm to human beings. For example, if you take colares in Brazil, there is obviously the human rights issue in simply taking people in the abduction process. Then there is the issue of cattle mutilations.

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  Obviously a total lack of.

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Concern for sentient creatures because these cattle, not just cattle, it's other animal species have been horribly mutilated and they appear because they've got broken legs or some of them to have been dropped from a height. So it doesn't appear to be there's a great deal of respect for sentient creatures or indeed for our human rights. Then, of course, there are a whole host of paranormal phenomena which are themselves nasty. Now, whether those are a part of, a deliberate part of this phenomenon, or whether this phenomenon simply triggers other phenomena and allows them to happen, I don't know.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  So I think we shouldn't necessarily and should not ascribe benign intentions to these non-human intelligences. They've done very little, I think, to earn that label. When it comes to an agenda, I can't see that they have done anything positive, really, for us, that we know of, that we can certainly see and say, yes, that's in our interests. Of course, there are some things that they've done allegedly over nuclear sites. They've actually reduced the radiation levels on some occasions.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  Some people apparently have been cured after an abduction of some disease which they've suffered from. But by and large, I think we need to be cautious.

• 1:32:02Jesse Michels?

  So you have no reason to believe that these are necessarily good?

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  I don't think we have any reason to believe any of them are necessarily good, no.

• 1:32:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I mean, it's probably, yeah, Occam's razor would be, it would be sort of split between good and bad and it's hard to, hard to sort of say. But yes, a lot of people who have regular abductions, it feels like they want to be sort of rid of it and it's actually very traumatic. And then, actually, if you look at the Edgar Mitchell database on abductions, it's like over 50% have a pretty positive, neutral to positive, you know, interaction. So I think it's hard to say. I think a lot of it has to do with the person's, it's also, think about like psychedelic trips. How many of them are so kind of gnarly in the moment and then they're like excavating

• 1:32:51Jesse Michels?

  some or shedding some bad part of a person and then they come out being like, you know, that was really hard, but I was grateful that I experienced it. I don't know.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  I mean, there are some encounters which appear to have been positive. I mean, I do remember the Valensole case, for example, if you remember the French farmer, Maurice Mass, who found a sphere in his fields, they were picking his lavender shoots. And he had an encounter with those beings. Now, Jacques Vallée met Mass and Mass clearly had a conversation telepathically with the beings and it appears that they were benign and that they told him quite a lot about

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  what they were doing and he would never speak about it. I think Jacques might know a little bit more, but Mass said it's, no, I'm not going to talk about it. So there are those, some of those cases which appear to be very genuine and Valensole is regarded as being one of the best landing cases in Europe, where the outcome and the encounter certainly augers well for the beings and their, let's use the word conversation with the witness.

• 1:34:15Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned Prince Philip's inquiry meeting with somebody who he thought was an alien or non-human intelligence who had telepathic communication possibly with him or could read his mind. Have you ever met anybody who you think might be non-human or have that ability?

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  I haven't and funny enough, Timothy Good told me that he had and on a number of occasions, I think he met somebody who did actually in a crowd speak to him, more than one occasion, but I haven't had that experience.

• 1:34:51Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. What in, what was transpired in the Timothy Good communication?

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  Just that they wanted to let him know and they appeared like humans and I think one of the females in question almost sort of went like that as a sort of pirouette, but they wanted to let him know through communication that they were amongst us and that they could speak to him.

• 1:35:16Speaker 03

  It's accepted by some governments that up to 50 or more species have been coming here over the years and that's not so outrageous. Essentially, they're all humanoid, but there are variations.

• 1:35:30Jesse Michels?

  Can we expect any sort of disclosure coming out of the UK? You know, Helen McCaw, I believe, is this Bank of England analyst who wrote this paper about the implications for disclosure for the modern economy. You obviously are very prominent and you write about this topic. Do you think that we get any disclosure here or is the UK going to just sort of lag the United States?

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  So I don't think there's going to be any disclosure from any European country. First and foremost, because we do not have a program or a policy on UAPs that is public and our legislative assemblies are not discussing it. Funny enough, since I wrote the book, I have had a number of members of parliament contact me wanting to change that situation. But I think our concern is very much one of defence and I think that's true of Europe and NATO as a whole. We're concerned about our, the security of our airspace, we're concerned about the security of our territorial waters. And yes, I know many instances, even last month, of a sighting over London where helicopters

• 1:36:39Speaker 02

  come out quite quickly to surround the object and see it off or find out what it is. But we do not have a policy and therefore, first of all, there's nobody easily for anybody here to go and make disclosure to, to as an individual. I don't see the government being at all motivated, able or willing to engage in any disclosure process. They will defer entirely to the Americans. And that is the way I think the Americans have structured it, in that they are the ones with the history and the programs and the experience and NATO is very much subordinated to the Americans.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  As I say, I mean, if a craft crashed here, we would deploy special forces, but it would be Americans who would come and collect it and there must be some kind of sharing process. And of course, there's a Five Eyes Caucus Group, as we know, that's met at the Pentagon and there's sharing between different intelligence departments and signals intelligence, of course. Disclosure of it's going to come through any government will be one of the superpowers. And I suppose from the American point of view, obviously the real concern is, is it going to be China? And is it going to be America? I mean, many people say if it's not Trump, then no other president is going to get close.

• 1:38:03Speaker 02

  But from across the pond, my view is, I'm not sure that President Trump is truly interested in actual disclosure. I think he's interested in doing something no other president has done and as long as there are these batches of disclosure showing some kind of anomalous phenomenon, that will do. And I know people say the White House are pressing, but there are too many real obstacles to that. They'd have to admit the legacy programs, they'd have to admit a catalogue of crimes, which would not be easy to explain away.

• 1:38:36Jesse Michels?

  Why, why couldn't they just admit that there are things in our airspace that we can't, you know?

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Well, I think they have, that's already disclosed. There are things in the airspace we can't explain.

• 1:38:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, not by a sitting president?

• 1:38:47Speaker 02

  No, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I'm not sure that's, that counts as disclosure. That's, there's anomalous, something anomalous here.

• 1:38:57Jesse Michels?

  What counts as disclosure?

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  Good question. What does count as disclosure? Are you going to say there are non-human intelligences that we know about who have visited us? Are you going to say that in our airspace on our oceans? If you say that, are you ready for the follow-on questions? Okay, well, who are they? What's their agenda? Do they believe in God? Are we safe? Those are questions that are very, very difficult to answer. And next question, how long have you known it? How did you find out? These questions are danger to any administration because they will involve a disclosure of

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  a wealth of crimes. And I think that's, apart from obviously the national security issue of disclosing what we've possibly discovered. We cracked anti-gravity, got free energy, all of those issues. So I think, I'm sorry to say, we're going to be in a situation certainly in the forthcoming five years, 10 years.

• 1:40:09Jesse Michels?

  Well, on that somber note, you know, very, very lucid assessment, I really appreciate your time, Jonathan. This has been a lot of fun and hopefully everybody goes and buys your book. I think it's great and it's a really good kind of survey level overview of a lot of the stronger evidence over the last 70 years for UFOs and it also does some really good sense-making around what these things are, which is very important.

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  Well, what I tried to do actually is to put within one cover, it tries to serve two markets. One is people who don't know much about this and to explain the different angles of a very complex phenomenon, so you can get hopefully an overview. And secondly, throw in tidbits there, which hopefully is new information to a lot of people.

• 1:40:55Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely. You did a great job of both. And yeah, appreciate your time. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for, for coming through in London, special, special edition of American Alchemy.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Thanks so much, Jesse, and happy to have you here. Thank you.

• 1:41:07Jesse Michels?

  Awesome.

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