“I Met The Head Of The Entire UFO Program!” - Grant Cameron

Our American Alchemist this week is Grant Cameron, a Canadian UFO researcher, author, and longtime investigator of government secrecy and the UFO phenomenon. --------------------- You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy Ridge: Get 10% Off your entire order & take advantage of Ridge’s Annual Sweepstakes by going to https://www. Ridge.com/COSMIC #Ridgepod MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at https://mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod Grab Your American Alchemy Merchandise Here! https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ --------------------- Grant Cameron has investigated UFOs since 1975, when a series of sightings known as “Charlie Red Star” drew him into the subject. Over the decades, his research has taken him through presidential UFO records, government documents, alleged crash-retrieval programs, intelligence insiders, and figures including Eric Walker, Bob Lazar, Tim Taylor, and members of the CIA community. In this conversation, Cameron recounts his interactions with alleged UFO insiders, explains how he obtained the Wilson-Davis memo, discusses the CIA’s so-called “Weird Desk,” government disinformation and managed disclosure, alleged UFO retrievals, portals and time travel programs, and why he believes the deepest secret behind the phenomenon may be consciousness rather than the craft themselves. Explore Grant Cameron’s books, including his latest, Beyond Managing Magic 2: Landing the Plane: https://itsallconnected.weebly.com/books.html YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@whitehouseufo X: https://x.com/GrantCameron Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/whitehouseufo/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/presidentialufo --------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w --------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] --------------------- TIMESTAMPS 00:00 Intro 02:30 Sponsor — Incogni 06:22 Carman, Manitoba and Charlie Red Star 08:42 The night it came in front of the car 11:35 "That is so cool — but what is it doing?" 14:14 The Mickelsen Safeguard site and the 1975 wave 16:52 Stan Romanek 19:33 The Audrey phone calls 22:32 John Alexander turns up 25:41 Back to 1975: is there footage? 28:21 Ray Hernandez and the contact modalities 30:29 Wilbert B. Smith and Project Magnet 33:32 The Top Secret memo — the five points 36:02 William Steinman and Dr. Eric Wang 39:08 Roswell, Doty and the first phone calls 41:45 Loring, Wurtsmith, Minot: autumn 1975 44:55 The LBJ UFO study 47:24 The panel: the same names every time 49:45 Frances Swan, the channeler from Eliot, Maine 52:04 Vannevar Bush and the dollar-a-year men 54:12 "Go to the window" 56:32 Bob Jacobs and the 1964 Vandenberg film 59:23 Paul Shartle at Norton AFB 1:02:05 Holloman: 1971 or 1964? 1:04:14 Close Encounters and the Spielberg connection 1:06:27 The F-4 debunk 1:08:27 "The Pentagon storyboarded it" 1:10:55 Does the Vandenberg film still exist? 1:13:17 Congress and the classified film 1:18:40 How the Wilson-Davis memo got onto the internet 1:21:01 Teller, the Q clearance and December 6th 1:23:54 Tim Good: only at the base five or six times 1:26:39 Ad break — Ridge and MUD\WTR 1:29:30 Why they never fired Lazar 1:31:56 DARPA: talking to a computer with your mind 1:35:16 Is the disclosure push their plan? 1:37:32 Jim Semivan's seven-hour briefing 1:40:03 A craft that only opens if you vibrate right 1:42:30 Ron Johnson in the spirit world 1:44:56 Do the beings need bases? 1:47:08 "What do you know about ESP?" 1:49:44 Kingman: "How do you know they didn't walk away?" 1:51:41 Malmgren, Bobby Ray Inman and IDA 1:54:19 How Steinman found Eric Walker 1:56:07 "Why change the rules to satisfy your curiosity?" 1:57:50 Nixon, Jackie Gleason and Homestead 2:01:34 The Nixon letter to Emenegger 2:03:51 Paul Hellyer's dying witness 2:06:20 Stephen Lovekin, Eisenhower and Mount Weather 2:09:31 Reading the presidential libraries 2:11:44 The Reince Priebus briefing 2:13:48 Tim Taylor, NASA and Chris Bledsoe 2:16:13 Meeting Tim Taylor in 2013 2:18:44 The breadcrumbs: paintings and a postcard 2:20:16 The jump room 2:23:44 The Panama Canal tape 2:26:46 Dan Smith, Los Alamos and live aliens 2:29:24 The Jasons and gravitational waves 2:32:36 The Rockefeller Initiative 2:35:14 Kit Green goes to see Eric Walker 2:37:40 Semivan, Green and Tom DeLonge 2:40:43 Hillary, Kimmel and the practiced answer 2:42:34 The tar baby 2:44:46 Trump caught off guard 2:47:18 Portal tech versus nuts and bolts 2:49:35 The 36 people who flew the craft 2:52:33 Someone always standing behind you 2:55:08 "It is within you" 2:56:59 Skepticism, Descartes and the left-brain interpreter 3:00:24 Skinwalker Ranch is reflective Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:30Jesse Michels?

  Whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth, your name always shows up. It's always like, well, Grant Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron knows about this.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  I've leaked so many documents and I'm saying, does anybody ever just leak a document? Am I the only person that's leaking documents here?

• 0:44Jesse Michels?

  You're one of the few people who've had direct interactions with Eric Walker, who's been rumored to be on this sort of majestic 12 committee. What was that interaction like?

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Well, it was wild. He said at one point, you're talking about the MJ 12 committee, and he cuts the guy off, said, "Look, let me ask you a question. What do you know about ESP?" And the guy had no answer. He said, "Look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in by the control group."

• 1:11Jesse Michels?

  When he said "control group," what do you think he meant?

• 1:14Speaker 02

  He described them as a group of elites. If you were invited into their group, I would know. Secret societies with guys with the money, that the people who went to the Cosmos Club were the insiders. Hillary was really into this thing. They talked about the seven-year plan. They were going to promote this stuff. And John Podesta was actually saying, "Ask her about the aliens." And she was going to go on Kimmel, and she went on there, and he didn't ask her the UFO question.

• 1:36Jesse Michels?

  No way. How do you know that?

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Send you Podesta emails.

• 1:39Jesse Michels?

  Holy shit.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  If you listen to Jim Semenbaum, he says, "Just because you've got bodies in crafts doesn't mean you know what's going on." He said, "All the science stuff is right, everything." I wrote the whole book on UFO sky pods, where I write 36 people that came to me, and I'll say, "I've flown the craft."

• 1:55Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 1:57Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe we have crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?

• 2:01Speaker 02

  So Ron Pandolfi ran the Weird Desk?

• 2:03Jesse Michels?

  What's the Weird Desk?

• 2:04Speaker 02

  The Weird Desk is supposedly the place at the CIA where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff.

• 2:09Jesse Michels?

  It's like the X-Files at the CIA?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, the really weird stuff.

• 2:12Jesse Michels?

  So you think Ron Pandolfi exists at the top of the UFO pyramid from a government perspective?

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Absolutely. He's been at the CIA since 84. He's rumored to brief the president. And he says, quote, "People have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world. There's been a breakthrough." He looks over at this John guy. "Next time John goes to the desert, a number of us here will go into the next world and come back again." And I went, "Whoa."

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Ignition frequency five.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  How is this possible? Nothing too much about that.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 2:59Jesse Michels?

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• 3:44Jesse Michels?

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• 4:27Jesse Michels?

  This is one of the best ways I've found to anonymize myself online. Right now, you can use code AMERICANALCHMY at incogni.com slash American Alchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Again, that's incogni.com slash American Alchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Thank you so much to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode. So I'm here with Grant Cameron, and this has been a long time coming. I've been trying to get you to the States for the longest time. I had to come out to Canada, but I'm really grateful to be with you now because there are many deep threads in UFO world. Whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth and I'm going through all these interesting people

• 5:11Jesse Michels?

  and places and dates and events, and your name always shows up. It's always like, well, Grant Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron knows about this. So I'm really excited to speak to you, and I think this should be a lot of fun.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Dusty, I'm honored to be here because you're one of the guys that's getting the message out, and that's basically what it's all about. It's like, it's not about money. It's, to me, it's always been like a chess game. It's like, because I was very good at chess when I was a little kid. I stopped playing because I started to lose a couple of games. I didn't want to lose. But to me, it's like a chess game. It's like, I saw something and I was determined, I'm going to figure this thing out. And one of the problems we have in the UFO community is getting the message out to raise consciousness. And so I appreciate what the job you've done in terms of moving the message to the general public.

• 5:57Jesse Michels?

  I'm doing my best. I don't even know if there's a concrete or discreet message. It's more like, just, I'm trying to figure it out myself, and I'm filming that.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:07Jesse Michels?

  And so I think through that, you know, maybe that creates sort of a ripple effect. And there are others who do a great job, like Chris Ramsey. And, you know, we're in Luigi's office. He's making an amazing movie about Bob Lazar. There are all these people. And I do think it spreads and, you know, the whole thing grows. But you really helped kick it all off. So I wanted to talk about how you got into this whole field. You had an experience, right? It was, when was that, 1975?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  May of 1975. I actually started in February 1975. I lived in Manitoba, which is the province right in the middle. Winnipeg, Manitoba, which is the coldest major city in the world. And a small town about 35 miles southwest. It's called Carmen. Suddenly, it was all over the news. There's this thing called Charlie Red Star. It's flying around there. And I was at the university at the time, and I was kind of depressed with where I was. I was trying to figure out calculus and chemistry and stuff. And I was like, "How the hell are you going to make any money with this stuff? Like, what am I going to do with this stuff? I couldn't figure out why I was there." And I was expected to go because I was kind of a smart kid. So I was expected to go. I just couldn't figure out what I was going to do. And then the sightings started.

• 7:18Speaker 04

  The object appears to be stationary just above the ground. Then, almost simultaneous, with a flash which appears in the sky, the object moves north at blinding speed.

• 7:30Speaker 02

  And I said to my friend, we used to drive around the city, do nothing, you know, just drive around the city. I said, "Well, instead of driving around the city, why don't you go out and see what they're looking at?" And I figured, it was like, I always describe it as the lottery. You buy the ticket to the lottery. There's a chance you're going to win, but you ain't going to see nothing. You're not going to see anything. So we didn't go. We didn't go till May because I had no interest in it. He had no interest in the subject. So in May, the CKY film was caught on film. They caught this thing jumping from the ground to 5,000 feet in the air in three frames, four frames. We haven't got the actual film, so we can't determine exactly how many frames. And the whole horizon lights up. One frame, the entire horizon lights up. And there was a TV crew got it.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  And so they analyzed this thing. An eight-minute documentary they did. They had it frame by frame. This thing is moving. How it jumped, the flash frame as it went up. And they were eight miles away, and it went from the bottom of the frame to the top of the frame, and they're eight miles away. And just amazing thing. So I said, "Holy cow, look at the cut on film. Let's go." So we drove out there, and we drove in this town called Carmen. We drove out, we drove in. I had no, I had no understanding about astronomy or anything. I'm looking at planets, stars. I couldn't tell a planet from a star. It's like, oh, what are they looking at? What's everybody looking at? And we drove for an hour. And then my friend said, they were just driving. He said, "Okay, we'll drive into Carmen one more time. If you don't see anything, let's go home." I said, "Fantastic. This has been a total waste of time." I knew we wouldn't see anything. So we turned the car to go back in,

• 8:59Speaker 02

  and boom, it appeared from the left to the right. And everyone in the car, nobody said, "Is that what they're looking at?" Because we were looking at, what is this going to? And nobody said, "Is that what they're looking at?" Everybody just went, "There it is." And it was just so weird. And looking back, it came in so close and so clear and so slow, right in front of the car. Just flew in front of the car. And I was just mesmerized because I was raised, I was supposed to be a minister. So I was raised sort of very religiously, and it was like the miracles and stuff. And the first thing I thought is, "Holy cow, there are miracles." Like, whoa.

• 9:31Jesse Michels?

  What did it look like?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  It was like a plasma object. It was just, and it looked like it was alive. It was just slowly pulsing. It was going so slow, and it was maybe 100 feet off the ground, 150 feet, and it came right in front of the road as we were driving.

• 9:42Jesse Michels?

  How big was it?

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Hard to tell because it was at night. So we say like a small plane or something. But the thing is, you have no perspective at night as to what it was. But it was pretty big in the sky. It wasn't a light in the sky. It was, it was an actual object. And you couldn't see the edges. So it was sort of this idea that it gives off this energy, this light that doesn't light anything up. We called it a dead light. And it would just be pulsing along. And I remember, we was going across the road, and then there was these school buses all parked there. And I was getting out of the car, but still moving. I'm getting out of the car because I wanted to cross the ditch. And I wanted to go and watch this thing as it got behind the school buses. I remember I was sitting between these school buses and just watching this thing just go boop. And just pulsing, just flying, just flying away. So I dragged all my friends. I said, "Man, you've got to see this. This is the most amazing thing you've ever seen in your life." So I dragged all my friends out there.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  And it was like a party atmosphere because it's Saturday night or Friday night, whatever. So you've got kids out there drinking beer on the roads outside the town, you know. And we were there, and there was 20, 28 people. When I was, we were in the middle of nowhere. I didn't know where we were. Just, we saw these cars parked, so we went there. And the car beside us had, I remember it had, it was a courier car. There was three guys, and there was a girl. And he had a camera, a Nikon camera that had the first motor drives on it, where they could advance the film very fast. So the second night, we were sitting there, and all my friends said, "Oh, we're going home." I said, "No, no, you've got to see this. This is the most amazing thing here." "Hang on, stick here." Nope, "We're going back. We're hungry. We're going back to Winnipeg for pizza." And all my friends left. And there was about nine of us left when it finally came. So we were sitting there, and there was just like a flash cube flashing in the sky.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  And these kids are sitting in the field. And they yelled back at me, "Is that it, Grant?" I guess so. It didn't look like what I saw on the first night. I guess so, because it's so weird. And then it went boom, boom. It's called the ping pong ball. Boom, boom, boom. It's jumping around the sky. Boom, boom. And I can still remember, it was just like a football game. People were swearing, screaming, yelling, jumping up and down. And this guy could just hear the motor, the camera was going click, as this thing was coming around. I see unloading the camera as this thing's coming towards us. And the girl couldn't see it because it was jumping around the sky. Says, I can't see it. Someone show it to me. And everybody's ignoring her. We're just sitting there and it came in. And then it appeared like the same at first night. It was like this red pulsing object and had this sort of a green glow on the back of it.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Came right at us and it just sort of made this turn. And it sort of went back, sort of, it came from the west and went back into the northwest. And I remember as I was watching it, this car took off, the gravel was flying because it goes so slow. They were chasing it. So I was sitting there and I was looking at it and the thing that stayed with me my entire career, it's 51 years now. I looked at it and I go, that is so cool. That could be an extraterrestrial from another planet. But what the hell is it doing? It's not doing anything. And we had a joke. Because it would be sort of showing up there all the time. And it was like a small town. There was no military. There was no industry. There was no nuclear. There was nothing there. And it was like, why are they here? Why, why? I was asking the guy that ran the airport.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  And we had a joke. We said, like, American beer was very water, is low alcohol at that time. And Canadian beers always had high alcohol. So he said, he's doing a beer run. He's coming from the United States. He's picking up some beer and he goes back to the United States, you know? And so I asked the guy later on, I went 35 years later, I went back to this guy, Bob Deemer, who's a guy who's real wild guy. He rebuilt this zero, Japanese zero, built all these, flew in the Battle of Britain, the movie, flew his, his, uh, his zero and stuff like that. He's just a wild guy, had an airfield there. And he was sort of the tour guide. So I said, Bob, why were they here? Why did they come to Carmen? He said, I told you. I said, Bob, I don't know. I'm doing a lecture in the States. I'm gonna, I just want to review what happened here.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  And he said, I told you in 75. Yeah, I told you what happened, why they were here. And I said, Bob, I still don't know why they're here. And he said, the nuclear weapons. I told you, the nuclear weapons. That's why they were here. And then I said, oh yeah. He said, don't you remember I told that story about the guy? The Air Force guy that I talked to at the bar on the, on the border, that they had this thing cornered over top of a nuclear weapon? And they, they were told to ram it. And they came in and the guy that was in the bar said, it's not worth my life. And he pulled out of the, out of the formation. And the thing just took off through where, where he was, he, he left a hole and this thing took off. And then it made sense because we always knew that North Dakota was a nuclear superpower. If it had been a country, country, it would have been a nuclear superpower. It had the mineout field.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  And then it had the Grand Forks field, which is the one that we were involved with, had 150 Minuteman nuclear missiles in each field. And so that's 300 nuclear missiles. And we'd go into the States and we'd see them. There'd be a field. There'd be one in a field. You see the fence around it, off, off in a farmer's field or something like that. And then another one. So we always knew there were nuclear weapons. We knew if there was ever a nuclear attack, we were gone because we were 60 miles north of the border. And every 10th, you know, Russian missile would come short right on top of us, you know, we're, we're gone. Because that's the number one target. It's not Washington. It's not LA. The number one target is the missiles. So then this is, the Russians would target this, these missile fields. North Dakota would be obliterated.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Because if you don't get the missiles, you're not going to know what happens. So what had happened in 75, in February, they opened what was called the Mickelson Stanley ABM site. It was the only anti ballistic missile unit that everyone operated on the United States. There were supposed to be three. One was in the east, somewhere in Wisconsin or something. One was in Nicoleman, North Dakota, which is the one that we were involved with. And then there was supposed to be one at Malmstrom. And they only built the one in, in North Dakota. So they put in another 100 nuclear missiles. So you had 300, now they put this field, maybe, you know, a couple acres with all these missiles. And the idea was, this is pre-Star Wars. So what they're going to do is they have these five megaton missiles and they would launch. So if the Russians launch, they're going to try to hit it in outer space.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  So they'd launch these missiles. And then if those missed, then they had these one megaton sprint missiles. They would go up and create this shrapnel over top of the missile silos and shred the, the Russian missiles that was coming down. So they put these 100 nuclear missiles. And that's when the UFO started on our side. We were only like 25 miles north of the border where all this stuff was happening. And Nicoleman was just on the other side of the border. And they had the big radar. It was called the Nixon Pyramid, which was right on the border. And this is the one that would pick up the Russian missiles and stuff like that. And I didn't know that at the time. It was maybe 30 years later that I suddenly realized they'd put all these new nuclear missiles. In November of 1975, they made an agreement with the Russians. And they started taking them out because of all the thing with the dummy warheads and stuff like that, that they realized there's no way you can defend this kind of stuff.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  So they basically stopped and this missile field was taken out. So I think they spent $6 billion in 1975. It was there from February till November of 1975. And that whole time we were inundated with UFOs. Even there was a missile silo right on the border. And there was a UFO landing about two miles away from it. And there was a famous abduction case called the Larson case in North Dakota in 1973, 1975. Spring, uh, summer of 1975, where there was two nuclear missiles within sight of where they were abducted. And this is a big story, but back in that time, because Travis Walton hadn't been abducted yet. 75 was a big year. I got involved. I got dragged down the rabbit hole. Linda Howe got dragged down the rabbit hole.

• 16:51Jesse Michels?

  What happened in the Larson case?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  She, she was abducted. She was going to, uh, an appointment in Bismarck. So she's going from Fargo to Bismarck. And then just outside of Beaver, North Dakota, this was the abduction took place. And she describes the beings and they're, they're not grays. They're some weird type of beings. And they regressed her and the National Enquirer came in. So it was a big story. It was all over the place. Everybody knew, like, everybody knew about Pascagoula. Everybody knew about Betty and Barney Ale. And this is one of the big ones that the National Enquirer, with their 15 million readers, got very popular at that time. So we started putting this all together, same as Stan Romanek. His father, he claimed worked on the missiles. And he came from, from North Dakota. That's where his origin was. So Linda Howe got called in, in the middle of that year.

• 17:35Jesse Michels?

  What happened to Stan Romanek, just for general audience?

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Well, he got, he had pornography stuff on his, on his, uh, on his computer. Now, he said it was set up and I talked to him maybe two years ago.

• 17:49Jesse Michels?

  No, I mean, what happened to him with respect to contact?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  He was a contact, major contact. He had all these, uh, beings. They actually had the photograph of the, of the, uh, of one of the hybrids that his wife took. She was sitting in our audience with the, with the wraparound eyes. And they had, like, when I went to them, I said to his wife, I said, are you getting these things of shadow people? Any photographs of shadow people? It's just, yeah, you want some? She said, these photographs of shadow people. They're just like total nutso hosts.

• 18:16Jesse Michels?

  And so did he, he lived around there or his father was a?

• 18:19Speaker 02

  His father was working there. They moved to, he was just north of Denver. And so everybody'd go see him. Like John Alexander went to see him. And I heard that John Alexander had been there. And everybody said, oh, he's, he's hoaxing the thing. And they would tell me, uh, um, like the Mifon people said, are you going to go see Stan Romanek? Because he said, anybody can come to the house for a couple of days.

• 18:36Jesse Michels?

  Because he has like videos of like beings coming into his house, sort of thing.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  And he has, he has, he has the big story nobody knows about, and that is the Audrey story. So the Audrey story, and there's a couple of films of him at the phone, where Audrey phones up. And it's this voice message that you had back at the time. And it's like a phone message. So it's an actual voice. It's the Audrey phone message. And it's this voice. And they're, they're calling him Star Seed. And they're saying Star Seed this. And they were giving these messages. And he would have it on tape or the phone would ring and you'd do this whole thing. So everybody said, ah, Stan's making it up. He's hoaxing this. Most people don't know, there was 80, over 80 phone calls, Audrey phone calls to all sorts of people. There was a guy who actually was with me with Tim Taylor, who had a bunch of them. He was going to do a book on them. He played a couple, a couple of Audrey messages. And he had two phones. He was a.

• 19:24Jesse Michels?

  What are, what are the Audrey messages?

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Well, they're messages that come from the beings that he's in contact with.

• 19:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow. You're an absolute encyclopedia about all this stuff. So I want to make sure when you mention a thing, it's not only accessible to people who are into UFOs, but you explain what it is to a wider audience.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  So this, this guy, nobody knows. So this guy's a big business guy. And he's the guy that had the cabin where I met, um, Tim Taylor in Pennsylvania. But he's a big business guy in, in New Jersey. And he had two phones. He told me he had two phones, one phone for business and the other phone. And he would know before the phone rang, Audrey was going to phone. And Audrey would phone and then he would get these messages. And he was sort of a big business guy. He was backing Stan Romanek until the charges came where Stan got pulled up on these charges. And then the guy pulled out.

• 20:08Jesse Michels?

  What were the Audrey messages?

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Everybody was getting different messages. I'll give you the one which which sort of blew me away. Paula Harris said she got a message from, I said, that's nothing. I got a phone, a message from Audrey. I said, you got a message from Audrey too? And she said, I got a message. And I said, well, tell me. Well, it's nothing. I said, why? But Stan Romanek got them and then uh um the guy in New Jersey was getting them. And then um uh the the public affairs guy from MUFON got a message on his own phone. It came with his phone number. And this is before we could do this thing, make your phone number. It comes on his own phone, his own phone is phoning him and Audrey's on there. And he played me the message. So I knew there was these people getting these Audrey messages all over the place. And nobody had made it public that these Audrey messages. So Paula's was she'd gone to a Stephen Greer event at Crestone, Colorado.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  And she'd actually bought five acres because she was thinking of making some establishment.

• 20:58Jesse Michels?

  Why was Stephen Greer doing an event at Crestone?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Well, he was doing an event there.

• 21:02Jesse Michels?

  What was it?

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Well, it was like one of the CE five events that he has, you know, where in California or Florida and stuff. He was doing one there.

• 21:09Jesse Michels?

  Because Crestone, I believe, is a center of.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:12Jesse Michels?

  There was sort of this woman who started, she had all these ideas of like syncretic ideas of, you know, some universal religion or something, I think.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  And it's it's just a beautiful place. So Paula had bought five acres there. And we had, she was going to put it in establishment and Greer had acres there and stuff like that. And so she came back, the first time she went, she came back. And then she said, she said to herself, boy, that's beautiful. I'd like to go. And the phone rang and Audrey was on the phone. She says, don't worry, you'll go back.

• 21:39Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, this is the kind of phone calls. This guy from New Jersey said he knew when the, when Audrey was going to phone. And this is the part that I.

• 21:45Jesse Michels?

  So Audrey seems to be psychic.

• 21:48Speaker 02

  Well, Audrey's knows who all the people involved in the case.

• 21:51Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  And so nobody knew that all the people in the case were getting uh, there was even.

• 21:56Jesse Michels?

  Specifically in the Romanek case or in which case?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Well, the Romanek, this is all connected to Romanek.

• 22:01Jesse Michels?

  It's all connected to Romanek.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  All these, all these people were connected.

• 22:04Jesse Michels?

  So everybody who's investigating Stan Romanek is getting calls from this like.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Not all, but there was quite a few. I was picking up more and more. There was a guy at the, he's on the MUFON board. He come, he comes to me, says, I want to hear play this tape. I was at in Pennsylvania, I guess, two years ago. And he said, I want to play this tape. And he's playing this tape and I go, and he's going with Stasi and I said, is that Audrey? And he said, yeah, how do you know that? I said, you got a call too? And he said, yeah.

• 22:29Jesse Michels?

  It's like, what was your call that you got?

• 22:31Speaker 02

  I didn't get, I didn't get a call, but I was, I was going all these people and saying, you know, you got to take the Stan Romanek case, no matter what, what happened at the end. You got to take, this is a real case. I mean, this is a real deal.

• 22:41Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that video is real of the being like showing his face through the window? He's like inside his house and you know what I'm talking about?

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 22:49Jesse Michels?

  Being you just see the.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, there's this controversy you can never really tell. But I, I, I think, because he had all sorts of stuff with the guy on the side. There's so many bizarre stories with the guy. They take the side, he's siding off his house and stuff like that. It just like.

• 23:03Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know about the nuclear connection and I didn't know about the John Alexander kind of.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, John went. So I was doing a taping in LA and I heard John Alexander had been there. Because that's what his, his thing was. And I said, well, I'll go. I mean, I'll go there. I'll go there for a couple of days. I'll tell you and I'll tell you. If nothing happened, I'll tell you. Something happens, I'm going to tell you what happened. So I was going there and Romanek had the flu. He was just sick as a dog. So I talked to his wife. He serves a distance. He said, I can't do it. So I kept going. I went back to Canada and stuff like that. But um when I was going there, there, people were telling me, don't let him touch your computer. Don't let him touch your computer because your computer will go wapo when Stan touches stuff.

• 23:38Jesse Michels?

  Because there were sort of electromagnetic anomalies.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Chris Botsaw has the same thing. I mean, he gave me a list. I don't know if Chris gave you the list of all the stuff he'd done, like two washers, three dryers.

• 23:47Jesse Michels?

  Well, a lot of experiencers seem to, especially kind of super experiencers or, you know, people who have been implanted or abducted, you know, many times often have sort of electromagnetic anomalies involved with their body. And sometimes they'll shut phones off.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:00Jesse Michels?

  They'll fry electronics.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:02Jesse Michels?

  So Romanek was like, that's interesting.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Big time, big time. And so, so when I heard John had gone, he was, he was, we were on a set and John was sitting in the back. And people were really mad. I think it was Schmidt came out and he was just furious. John Alexander's there and he's watching everybody's testimony and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, John's there? And then sure enough, I went there and I, and you're in the dark. So he's in the dark and you're on camera. You can't see. And John comes in and he goes into the dark and he's sitting there and he's, I guess he's listening to everybody's things and making notes or for whatever reason. I don't know.

• 24:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. He's, he's one of these guys that seems to pop up when anybody has an experience. He seems to go take notes, evaluate what's going on.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  For himself or somebody else. Yeah.

• 24:43Jesse Michels?

  And then sometimes kind of partially debunks the thing, says that, well, it's there's nothing really there.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Because, because I, I said, oh, what the hell? So I saw him and he said, he had my book and he wanted me to sign the book. So I said, yeah, okay. And I figured, what the hell? Because he's a kind of a scary looking guy. He's, he's got all the martial arts and stuff that, you know, want to get him mad or whatever. So I said, hey, John, I heard you were at Romanek's house. And he said, yeah, I was there. And I said, really? Didn't anything happen? Because I heard stuff had happened. He said, anything happened? And he goes, yeah, some stuff happened. I go, really? Something happened? See, I was nothing. And I said, what do you mean it was nothing? And then he said, he said, well, we went in the backyard and he took the flashlight and he unscrews the flashlight till, you know, it's sort of on, off. And it's off and puts them on the picnic table. And then Romanek starts asking questions and the flashlight starts asking the questions. I said, that happened, John? Are you serious? That was going on?

• 25:32Speaker 02

  He said, yeah, it's just paranormal. Nothing, nothing on you. It's just paranormal.

• 25:35Jesse Michels?

  What? Wait, so how is this flashlight answering the question?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Like one, two, yes, no.

• 25:39Jesse Michels?

  One, two, yes, no, binary code.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, like one for yes, two for no. And I couldn't believe it. And then John said, it's just paranormal. It's just paranormal. Nothing to it. And I go, I just, so I was prepared. I was going because a lot of people just sort of criticized in the back. And, and he said, anybody who wants to come to my house, I said, I'll take up the deal, man. Sure. I, you know, I'll see if something happens. And I heard something come down the, an orb had come down the hall. And John was confronted with this orb. I hear all these stories, you know, about. And so when I said to John, when I said, did something happen? He said, yeah. And I go, holy shit, these people are telling the truth. This is, this is there, but.

• 26:12Jesse Michels?

  Your original experience with this plasma orb, which is so interesting. It was in proximity to this nuclear missile base because that seems to be, whenever I hear it's in proximity to nuclear, I go, oh, that's definitely a genuine UFO. Do you have any video of that or photos or anything from back then of the 1975 experience?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  We have, we have, there's, there's professional photographs of the uh, the uh, UFO. There's three.

• 26:44Jesse Michels?

  Amazing.

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:45Jesse Michels?

  So then you're, you're just hooked at that point. You go, I want to figure out what's going on here. Is that?

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Well, that was the whole thing. So I said, I don't know what's going on, but somebody's got to know what's going on here. And so then there was all these synchronicities, even this was a synchronicity. Because the guy that took the film, that's why the film is missing. The guy that took the film, he was sitting there and they'd been going out every night and paying overtime to these guys. And then the guy said the last name, he said, that's it. You guys want to chase this stupid UFO? You can go on your own. I'm not paying any more overtime. So all the people that were on the crew that caught this thing jumping off the ground. And it's in a documentary UFOs that has begun, the Emmaneger, they did a documentary in 75 and 79, they really released it called UFOs has begun. And Jacques Vallée introduces this CKY film.

• 27:29Speaker 04

  May 13th, 1975, cameraman Alan Carr of Station CKY in Manitoba, photographs two separate sightings over Carmen in front of four witnesses.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  So when I talked to the guy who did the film, he wasn't even a cameraman. He was a film editor in, in the, in the studio. And because the cameraman didn't want to go on his own time, he said, I'll go. And so he'd never shot a camera before. And then 75, the big cameras, you know, and he has this camera set up on the road. And he's telling me the story. He says, you know, I'm, I'm looking through the viewfinder and this thing's on the ground and it glows up and it goes back down. It glows up, glows back down. And then he says, well, they didn't get anything that before. I, next time it glows up, I'm going to, I'm going to shoot. So I've got something on film. And it was almost like the UFO said, you're ready, get ready. And as he pushed the trigger, the thing jumped in the air. And then he, then he was following it. And every time he moved the camera, he moved the camera and he didn't pick up anything. But he stopped the camera at 12 o'clock. So when it was on the ground and jumped up, he caught it there. And then it started to move across the sky and he followed it.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  And at 12 o'clock, he sort of stops to get a film reference from stars and stuff like that. And the thing flew the, through the lens and it was doing this wave through the lens.

• 28:35Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned CE five and then you have, you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear weapons. Do you think those are the same thing? So the UFOs that show up based on somebody sort of engaging in sort of a consciousness protocol. And it, you know, it comes into their sort of purview. So often those are sort of orbs or, you know, plasma like objects. And then you obviously have all this tampering with nuclear weapons, you know, sometimes actually energy grids. They seem to attract UFOs as well. Do you think those are the same phenomena or do you think they're different?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think all phenomena. I'm, I'm on the contact modality thing with Ray Hernandez where he gets pulled out of his car. I'm doing a lecture on consciousness. He comes to the lecture and then two days later, he's in this Miami, he's in a traffic jam, completely stalled, listening to NPR about some guy making art out of body fat. And he's going, that's pretty weird. And all of a sudden, boom, he's in, he's sort of in this field. And they're showing this wheel and the wheel is moving. It has all these different images, like remote viewing, psychic phenomena, UFOs, mediums, all this sort of stuff. And in the middle is consciousness. And the message he gets is you've got to quit parsing this stuff. It's all the same thing. And then bang, he's back in his car. And that's when he gets Edgar Mitchell, they start the Free Foundation, and they start

• 29:48Speaker 02

  talking to experiencers. So to me, it's all basically the same thing. It's all connected. And the nuclear missiles, I'm a little bit different. You can, I think you talk more to Jacobs than I do. But I don't know, there's been a case since 2010. So my idea about the UFO phenomena is it keeps changing stuff. So it's not like people say, oh, they're around nuclear weapon. They haven't been around nuclear weapon for 16 years. And before that, you've got to go back many years. And everybody talks, they talk about Moltztrum. That's 67. That's like 60, 70 years ago. You've got nothing newer. It's like they do that. Then they start the crop circles. Then they stop the crop circles. They do the meditations. Then they stop the meditations. Now we're doing the orbs. And it's almost like they keep changing stuff. And people think it's

• 30:31Speaker 02

  always been the same. In 75, there was no light language. There was no crop circles. There was no beams in the sky. There was really no orbs. When we had close encounters with the orbs in 76 in this, in this area, we called them ground lights. We didn't even know, we didn't, there's not even the word orbs. So now it's, people always think it's always been the same, but it's changed. And the nuclear missiles was even back in the 50s. That's Wilbur Smith's main message from AFA.

• 30:57Jesse Michels?

  So I want to talk about this. You mentioned Wilbur B. Smith. He was involved in something called Project Magnet. He was also in touch with a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who was running the Washington National Labs and was doing a lot of, you know, R and D and atomic work for Vannevar Bush at the time. So he was like a top nuclear physicist in the US. And they were going back and forth openly about UFOs. I think at one point Sarbacher says that UFOs are actually classified at two levels higher than the H-bomb. And so, so, so tell us about that correspondence and Wilbur B. Smith.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, Wilbur was the head radio engineer for the Department of Transportation, had a master's degree in electrical engineering. And he got interested in hypnosis. He wrote an early article in the 40s on hypnosis. And he got interested in the UFO phenomenon. He had Kehoe's books and stuff like that. And then the way he tells the story is, I went to Washington because he was, he was negotiating FM radio frequencies. And one of the people that worked for him was a metallurgist by the name of Art Bridge, who lived really near me in, in Canada. And he told me, he said, well, do you know what Wilbur did? I said, well, he was head radio engineer. No, you know, you really know what he wanted, what he did? I said, no. He said, he had a super top security clearance. He ran Radio Ottawa. And I said, I said, what's that?

• 32:17Speaker 02

  He said, well, that's monitoring Russian communications. Because he had all the communications. It's all radio then. So he had, they were doing the ionosphere tests, bouncing stuff off the ionosphere and stuff. And Wilbur was in charge of all this. And he was, they had the communication stations. If you see the photograph of the UFO, the Flying Saucers Observatory they'd built, it has all these, these towers, the communication towers. And it was like basically NSA of Canada. And he was, he was running this whole thing. So that's why the guy said, you realize he had, he didn't need UFOs to have a top secret security clearance. So he said he went to Washington and he started asking questions. And then he, people were confirming this. And he said, where there's smoke, there's got to be fire. And so then he, the Sarbacher thing happened. So to go to the

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Canadian Embassy, because it's all done diplomatically, you've got to get permission to talk to people. And at that time, it was, in Canada, it was the Defense Research Board that Wilbur was working with. And there was the Joint Research and Development Board that was headed by Vannevar Bush. So on our side of the border, there was a head guy who got involved. He was on the UFO, he was, Oman Slant was mentioned in the, in the document that Wilbur wrote later. But Wilbur had gone down there and they make these, this agreement to go through the Canadian Embassy. Now, those documents aren't in the Canadian files, but they are in Wilbur's files. And I recovered all of Wilbur's files. And we've got this communication with the, with this secretary at the Canadian Embassy. So the Sarbacher was, the setup, interview was set up with Sarbacher

• 33:43Speaker 02

  by the Canadian Embassy. And it may have actually been done in the embassy. And so Wilbur goes down there. And that's when Sarbacher is telling him all this stuff, you know, they're insect-like beings. And, you know, I, I, there's this high classification, flying saucers are real. So then Wilbur comes back and he writes the famous top secret memo. And it was one of the few top secret memos. The Canadian government doesn't deny it exists. It's, it's there. And it's in, it's in the documents and stuff like that. And Wilbur's got his personal copy, which doesn't have the top secret and all that stuff on it. But in there, he says five things. And for many years, I only mentioned the first four. And now I just work on the fifth. He said flying saucers exists. Based upon, he said, I talked to American officials. That's what he said in the documents.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  He's not talking to people on the street, talking to American officials. And he made this lots of times. He said, the UFO hardware is not controlled by the air force. It's controlled by American officials, not by the air force. So he said flying saucers exist. It's the most highly classified subject in the United States, rated two points higher than the H-bomb. It's of tremendous significance to the Americans. There's a group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush, who are trying to figure out the modus operandi. And then the next sentence that came to me in February 2012, popped in my head, the next line of the thing said, we were also told by American officials, that other things might be associated with the flying saucers, such as mental phenomena. The Americans aren't doing very well, because they said, if we're working on the problem, they're willing to exchange credentials and talk to us. So in 1950, they

• 35:10Speaker 02

  already knew that mental phenomena was part of the UFO thing. It wasn't just nuts and bolts, had this mental phenomena thing. This Oman Slant that he's referring to in the top secret memo is getting this material that he's bringing out, okay, embassy, and they're moving it all into the Defense Department. He, Wilbur is sending this material and sending the material to Slant. So, yeah, so Slant is, is the, the top guy. And in the embassy correspondence, there's actually a document that says, we're waiting for the Americans to make a statement. We're not going to do anything. We're waiting for the Americans to make a statement. Almost like they're going to confirm there's a crash, that this stuff is all real. And then there's

• 35:52Speaker 02

  another document in Wilbur's files, not in the official files, but in Wilbur's personal files, that says, we've sent, Wilbur had this idea about how propulsion worked. He believed it was electromagnetic fields, that they were using the electromagnetic field of the earth for propulsion and stuff like that. And so he had put that through and he's in this document, he says, has been sent to, Kehoe took the document on the propulsion to Vannevar Bush. And we're waiting for his opinion. It'll be interesting what he says. So you have this connection actually with Vannevar Bush. And he's named in the top secret memo. So that, but that didn't come out till 82, I think the top secret memo came out when Wilbur died in 62.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  And then what happened to me was I had this whole thing where I saw this thing and I said, somebody's got to know what's going on.

• 36:41Jesse Michels?

  And it's funny, Sarbacher also started to become more open about UFOs later in life. I believe in 87, he wrote to William Steinman, who had really gone deep on the Aztec crash, but also just general kind of the whole org structure of, you know, Majestic 12 and other sort of, you know.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Steinman revealed a lot of stuff. He's the guy that found Walker.

• 37:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  He's the guy that found Wang, this whole story about Wang.

• 37:07Jesse Michels?

  I want to get into both.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Being moved. And, and he's the guy that phoned, he told me the story about Bill Moore. So he, he, Wang had worked on the system. He's in the black ops, whatever. He's in the legacy program. And they move him to Kirkland. And then he's in Kirkland, he dies, he's a heavyset guy. He dies of a heart attack or something in 59. So Steinman finds out about him being moved and he worked on the program. So he phones his wife and he's talking to his wife and asking her all these questions. Steinman was ruthless. I mean, he was one of the best researchers I've ever seen.

• 37:38Jesse Michels?

  He was also worked at Skunk Works and was looking into this stuff, so much so that his exec, his superiors said, you know, you can't look into this anymore. He kept doing it. They fired him. And then he couldn't get a job. He was basically blacklisted in aerospace after that.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. He told me there was helicopters falling around. And then he got into the religious thing. He believed there was some religious thing that he had to, and he just told me. Don't, don't call me again. I'm out. He was like, boom, he's gone, just like that.

• 38:03Jesse Michels?

  He got into the, what does that mean? He got into the religion?

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Well, he, he, it was sort of like, it was against the religion or something, some sort of thing that it was against what he believed, his wife believed or something like that. That it had part to do with why he had pulled out of the thing, but he pulled out instantly. And I don't know what happened to his files. He had unbelievable files. So he was talking to Mrs. Wang and then he gets a phone call from Bill Moore and Bill Moore says, what are you talking to Mrs. Wang for? Leave her alone. And he said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang? And he said, I'm just telling you, leave her alone. Forget it. And they said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang? Were you on the call? And then, and then she just come over to my house on Wednesday night, something like that. And I'll tell you. And that's when Bill Moore tells the story about the CIA, that when he was at university, Bill Moore spoke fluent Russian. So the Russians, they recruited, what they do is they recruit people in universities.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  The star people, and they tried to bring him in and Bill Moore spoke Russian and was pretty smart guy and they recruited him. And what he told me is he said, I didn't work for them. I did some work, I did some work for them, but I didn't work for them. I just did some stuff.

• 39:04Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, but he was, I mean, cause we all know that he, you know, made this famous speech at MUFON and said that he was like used by, you know, possibly like the aviary, this group that seemed to be throwing people off the trail, giving people passage material, that sort of thing. But I didn't know that he literally admitted to Bill Steinman, another UFO researcher, that the CIA had recruited him essentially as an asset. And then we kind of know that he was also monitoring Bill Steinman's calls. So he was literally keeping tabs on other-

• 39:32Speaker 02

  One call, the one call for sure.

• 39:34Jesse Michels?

  One call at least, probably others, if it's just that one. That's crazy.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, and then Bill Moore had told him that, uh, when he got into the UFO thing, he went back to his, his contacts in CIA to help him. That's how he puts the thing together.

• 39:49Jesse Michels?

  That makes sense. So here's, here's my question then. You know, Bill Moore is kind of largely responsible for the Roswell story being resuscitated along with Stanton.

• 39:58Speaker 02

  Which is why they grabbed, that's why they went after him. Seven days after he, he went on the publicity tour, he got the first phone call. And that was probably from Dodi at Albuquerque and said, you're the only guy that knows what you're talking about. So the intelligence knows how to drag people in. Bill Moore had a superego. He really thought he was smart and he was smart.

• 40:15Jesse Michels?

  He was really smart. Now I think they also, I think they probably got to him before that. The, the reason I think that is because he wrote the book about the Philadelphia experiment.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  With, with Berlin, yeah.

• 40:24Jesse Michels?

  Well, let me actually think, was that after or before?

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Before.

• 40:27Jesse Michels?

  Roswell. It was before, right. So Townsend Brown, I think is really part of like a lot of the core secret of all of this stuff. Because it deals with the, the science that I think is usable in the human context, which is kind of anti-gravity. And they wrote this whole thing about the Philadelphia experiment, which a lot of people don't know because it's a lore and it seems so insane. You know, prima facie, the surface level story is that a ship was zapped from a port in Norfolk, Virginia to, you know, Philadelphia. And there was people on board and some ended up melded to the hull. And, you know, they experienced sort of time, you know, displacement and stuff.

• 41:05Jesse Michels?

  And we know actually Townsend Brown, uh, you know, moved from Norfolk, Virginia to LA, actually to work at Martin Vega Corporation, which was pre-Lockheed Martin around that time. We also know he suffered a nervous breakdown around that time and he ran the project. It was a real project. So I wonder if, uh, Moore's coverage of that somehow, you know, poked the bear a little bit and then they came back and said, hey, why don't you, why don't you do some work for us or something like that?

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Moore would have had a, a unbelievable file on Townsend. I mean, he, he was, he was pretty good. I mean, he interviewed the top scientist that, uh, um, Wright Patterson, he had a lot of interviews that, uh, and he put these people all together. They were coming to help him. So they got the first phone call, said, you're the only guy that knows who you're talking about. And of course, Bill Moore said, that's right. And then, then a couple of days later, they, he's on a radio show and they said, there's a call for you. And then it's a guy from, uh, from, uh, uh, Offutt Air Force Base. He said, the only guy knows what you're talking about. And this happened like within 10 days, he had these two phone calls. And then Bill said, yeah, I'm the only guy, I'm the only guy that knows what's going on. And I have the name of that guy, it escapes me, but we had a guy, he was the same guy that I think leaked the document,

• 42:18Speaker 02

  um, about the, uh, nuclear missile bases in late 1975. So in late, you know, October, 1975, in November, you had Loring Air Force Base, uh, Wurtzworth Air Force Base, Minot Air Force Base, Hallam Air Force Base, all with UFOs over there. And one of the stories people don't know, that Travis was taken on November the 5th to the 10th. Every night that Travis was gone, there was a UFO over a nuclear missile or a nuclear weapon storage area in the United States. Every night he was gone.

• 42:49Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  And so this is this really heavy period of time when they had these, these, these nuclear, uh, things going on. Seventy-five was a big time, Bud Hopkins got involved and the phenomena dragged him into it.

• 43:01Jesse Michels?

  I wanna, I wanna stick real quick, cause there was one loose thread there with, uh, Steinman. Who is this amazing UFO researcher? And so he, uh, approaches Maria Wang, who's Eric Henry Wang's wife. And Eric Henry Wang is this really interesting character, cause if you read Steinman's book, UFO Crash, you know, at Aztec. Uh, he talks about Wang being the one guy where when he kind of knocks on the door there, uh, you know, everything goes dark. And people always say, don't, don't talk about Wang. And Wang leads special projects at Wright Airfield, uh, but he seems to have been kind of scrubbed from the internet. Then he moves down to Kirtland Air Force Base. Uh, a researcher friend of mine has actually spoken to his daughter.

• 43:43Jesse Michels?

  And she also said, well, you know, she originally, she was like, I don't think there's anything to the UFO stuff. And then she goes, it's interesting that all this stuff is coming out now, like implying that she kind of knows a little bit more. And she's extremely religious. So maybe, you know, through kind of getting to Wang, Steinman somehow stumbled into this sort of religion. Do you have any idea what that, what that religious thing is?

• 44:05Speaker 02

  It just seems like it, I think his wife was involved or something. Where he was under a lot of pressure and he was talking about the helicopters following him. And he was really paranoid at, at the end. He just, uh, had this idea that they were gonna, they were gonna get him and, and, uh, I'm out. And he, I don't know what happened to his files, same as Bill Moore's files. I know a lot went to, um, Greg Bishop. But all his files, I mean, Moore's files would have been, cause he was a smart guy and he documented everything. And, uh, I don't know what's happened to all that material. He would have had a file on Wang, he would have filed anything he wanted. Moore, Moore was really, uh, thorough in doing an investigation. It wouldn't be one or two phone calls. He was almost like Stanton where he had massive files. And then he pulled out the same as, uh,

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Steinman. He just suddenly, boom, he was gone. He came back for a couple of interviews and I tried to get an interview with him. And of course, then the ego came back. I said, you know, I'd like, I'm coming to California. Can I do an interview? He said, Grant, if I didn't figure it out, nobody's gonna figure it out. Give it up.

• 45:03Jesse Michels?

  And who is this? This is more-

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Bill Moore.

• 45:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Interesting.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  But he was, he was a really sharp guy. I, I, and I knew him all the time. I never thought he was lying.

• 45:11Jesse Michels?

  He has an interview also with John Trump, who's Donald Trump's uncle.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 45:15Jesse Michels?

  And cosmic conspiracy. No, it's, it's on video, I think. I think he did a lot of research on, on John Trump, who also probably was knowledgeable about all this stuff. He was at the MIT Rad Lab and there was like an official LBJ investigation, right? That you were kind of a part of? Is that right?

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Okay. I'll tell you the story. So a girl contacts me and she said, I've got, I've got some files. And what had happened was, um, James McDonald, who was the sort of the main guy, testified in front of the UN and Congress and stuff like that. He was a guy out of University of Arizona. And he's got a massive collection. I went through his collection and tried to, he was good friends with Arthur Lundahl. He was head of the weird desk and he, but it was mostly just like-

• 45:57Jesse Michels?

  What's the weird desk?

• 45:58Speaker 02

  The weird desk is supposedly the place at the CIA where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff. And it's UFOs, it's paranormal phenomena, psychic, you know, remote viewing, all that kind of stuff. It's, it's, it seems like a small desk, like Kate, Kate Green said he only spent 10% of his time.

• 46:13Jesse Michels?

  It's like the X-Files of the CIA.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  The really weird stuff.

• 46:16Jesse Michels?

  What's this guy's name?

• 46:17Speaker 02

  Arthur Lundahl.

• 46:18Jesse Michels?

  Lundahl.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  Lundahl. And then it became Kate Green. Then it became Ron Pendolphy. Now Ron Pendolphy's retired. I'm not sure who it is now.

• 46:24Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  So this is the, and this is sort of the, the guys that, that sort of ran it. Anyway, the girl contacts me and she said, I've got, there's a guy did a, they did a study. And the guy's name, I think it was Rand. So she sends me all those credentials, his passes for the White House and stuff like that. And the girl, her friend had the document, her, and the, the book. So they'd written a book. This guy was gonna write a book on this, on this, this, uh, study that President Johnson had done. And she took photographs of a hundred pages of maybe 250 pages. So she sent me those pages and I said, can you get the rest of it? And nothing really happened on the rest of it. I'm not sure what it, what it was, but I got the hundred pages.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  And it does have the conclusion and the conclusion is basically the idea that UFOs exist, they're, they're actual, uh, metal. And doesn't say much more after that, you know, that we don't really know. It's just, yeah, that's right. And then apparently, uh, Johnson had said, now go tell, uh, go tell, uh-

• 47:24Speaker 00

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• 47:55Speaker 02

  The researchers go to hell. I've done, because they were into the supersonic transport thing. And this guy was against it. There was all this debate whether you should have supersonic transports and stuff like that. So James McDonald was putting pressure on the president to do a UFO study. And then you can actually see in the big case, there were the UFOs lens in the schoolyard in Australia. He's actually there. He's interviewing people at that. And he actually mentions, in fact, he's working on a presidential study. So that sort of backs up what this is.

• 48:24Jesse Michels?

  Wait, Lyndon Vane Johnson was that?

• 48:26Speaker 02

  No, no, they, James McDonald.

• 48:28Jesse Michels?

  James McDonald is the Arizona physicist.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  The study was being done for James McDonald. He was putting pressure on the president. So they did this. And the weird thing about it was if you take a look at the people that were on the, on the panel. Head of the weird desk, head of Skunk Works, two-star general at Patterson Air Force Base. The head of NRO is basically Tom DeLonge's list. Twenty years.

• 48:49Jesse Michels?

  Sounds a lot like T the Stars Academy.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Thirty years before. It's like the same list of people that, that it's like, this is where we're going to do this thing, we're putting them in. It's unbelievable. When you compare those two lists, that, that's, it's like a panel, the same panel goes every time.

• 49:02Jesse Michels?

  It was like an executive review panel or?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  And, and these are the guys that were working on it. And they're like, head of NRO and, and Arthur Lundell was, I heard stories from Eric Havis. Arthur Lundell was just obsessed and he was friends with James McDonald. So when I went to James McDonald's files, of course, I'm looking for Arthur Lundell. There was this whole bunch of files. And I found some more someplace else. And then I guess I was talking to people, whatever. And suddenly Hal Putoff contacted me and says, "Hey, you got a list of documents from Arthur Lundell, you know, letters and stuff?" I said, "Yeah." "Could I get a copy of that?" He said, "Yeah, sure." I sent the copy. So he knows who Arthur Lundell is. And he was, they heard that I had this collection of stuff.

• 49:43Jesse Michels?

  I wonder if they interacted. I mean, Putoff was obviously, you know, working with the CIA at, at that point.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. That's, that's the thing. And, and.

• 49:52Jesse Michels?

  If he was working the weird desk in seventy-five, I mean, Putoff was running Stargate in seventy-two, which is the CIA psychic spy program. So I imagine they interacted.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  His, Lundell was famous, his famous thing was the, the channeling of the, the alien at, at the photograph, National Photographic Interpretation Center. And that's where they analyze all the U2, the SR-71, all the, the spy photographs come through there. And it was the most highly classified CIA building in Washington. And what they did is they put it above an old, broken down car dealership in the slimmest area of Washington. So the Russians would never find it. They were not realized it's on this upper floor. And the people around there thought that they were printing money. Because there's so much security around the building, they thought the government was up there printing money in this building. And, and what happened was it came out of Wilbur Smith. So Wilbur Smith was basically doing what I'm doing, what a lot of researchers are doing.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  He's trying to find people who are contacting the aliens. So he had all these various people that were claiming they were having contacts, like a Damski, Williamson, all these people, even, even Townsend. Ground, he may have had some correspondence. He had all those correspondence coming from all over the place. And he had, his main woman was, was a woman named Frances Swan. So Frances Swan lived in Eliot, Maine, which is really weird. She lived basically down the street from, from Betty Hill. And so she's in the blondes, like the good aliens and the, you know, they're, the, the AFA one that she saw. He came one time when she was putting up decorations at a, at a Halloween thing. And he, she thought he was gorgeous and stuff. And she starts to get this guy channeling.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  And then Navy Intelligence picks up on this woman and they go and visit her in nineteen fifty-four. And then they come back and it goes in the file. Nothing happens till fifty-nine. Then they decide, and their, their story was they're going back to, to get airtime. They fly back to see her again. And that's when this whole thing happens. And Wilbur Smith is using her as well. So you can see the, the documents from, from Frances Swan, if you go FBI, Navy Intelligence, they'll have this one document. And you can tell Wilbur Smith is there and they're talking. And what Wilbur wants him to do is overfly Ottawa on October, on August the first, nineteen fifty-four. And she's saying to AFA, "Okay," and he's going to fly over, over top of this, he builds this flying saucer observatory. Has five different instruments in there, you know, for, you know, radiation, noise, all these different things he's registering.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  And it happens a week later. It happens on the eighth. The thing comes flying over and I was talking to one of the guys who was in the building at the time. And he said, "All the bells went off and the, the thing went right off the chart and they all went running out. It was overcast, so they couldn't see what it was." And Wilbur, of course, was very famous at the time, even in the States. And he put out a statement and said, "If we, if there's nothing wrong with the equipment, we just detected the first flying saucer over Ottawa." Boom. Shut down Project Magnet, said, "We didn't discover anything. Wilbur can use the equipment, but he's not allowed to make statements on behalf of the government." And game over.

• 52:48Jesse Michels?

  Wild. Who do you think came over the top of him? Because if he's running the, like, basically NSA of Canada, do you think it was like the American?

• 52:57Speaker 02

  It would be whoever, like whoever's at the top would say Oman Slant or somebody like that would, would say.

• 53:02Jesse Michels?

  Who was Oman Slant?

• 53:02Speaker 02

  He was head of the Weapons for the Canadians. He was Vandenberg Bush's equivalent.

• 53:06Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Vandenberg Bush did all the atomic bomb, proximity fuse, jets, jet engines, plastic explosives, all the World War II inventions. And what happened there is, is once they developed all those things in World War II, they said, "Hey, this is a great way."

• 53:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Because what they were doing is they're grabbing professors. Instead of sending them to war with a gun, Sarbacher called them dollar a year men. So they'd give them a dollar and during their, their summer, when they're off for seven, five months, they would work on things. So Eric Walker would build it, the proximity, the torpedo, the homing torpedo, all these inventions. And Vandenberg Bush was running all this stuff with all these professors they pull out of university. And then they realized this is a great way to do it. So they set up this research and development board to develop weapons. And, and that's, before World War II, the Americans really didn't have much in terms of invention.

• 53:54Jesse Michels?

  And explain, so you have Arthur Lundell, who's running the CIA weird desk.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:58Jesse Michels?

  Which is, you know, he's seeing all the most paranormal, strange stuff coming across his desk. And then who is Frances Swan exactly?

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Okay, so Frances Swan is the channeler out of Eliot, Maine.

• 54:07Jesse Michels?

  So he is working with the channeler.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Well, he's working, he's working, there's these two Navy guys and one guy's connected to CIA. He's got a CIA pass. So he knows Lundell's into this whole thing. So in fifty-nine, these guys fly back and they say, "Oh, we're flying back to get airtime." And for their ticket or whatever. And so they fly back and then she says, "Well, why I have to do it for you? Why don't you, why don't you just to show you how to do it?" And the guy says, "Okay." And I can't remember what the guy's name was. We've got his name, but he sits down in the chair. She puts his hand on, she puts her hand on his right shoulder. And suddenly he starts channeling. He starts, they were doing the automatic writing. He starts automatic writing. And they go, "Holy cow." And he's like, "Whoa." And he goes running back. And of course, where does he go? He goes, first place, he heads to Lundell, who runs the National Photographic Interpretation Center. That's his main job. So go back and say, "Art, this woman taught me how to channel it." He said, "Fantastic. Sit down."

• 54:55Speaker 02

  And this is where this memo that Jack Malley gave me, it's eleven pages. And it's this document that had what happened in this meeting. And I think it was July ninth, nineteen fifty-nine. So the guy comes back, they sit him down in the chair, they start asking him all these questions and, and this is all transcribed. And, "Do you favor a rural religion?" "No." And this question, this question, and question. And then Arthur Lundell says, "We'd like some proof." And then the guy goes from automatic writing to voice. Says, "What do you want?" He said, "I'd like you to show yourself." "When?" "Now." "Go to the window." And they go to the window and the flying saucer goes flying across in front of the Capitol.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  And the commander, still in a trance, told them to go to the window and they would have proof. The group moved to the window where they supposedly observed a UFO.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  And then they called in Robert Friend, who was running Blue Book. And it's an emergency meeting. They said, "You gotta come see this." And, and they call him in. He flies in from Ray Patterson. And they set up, set up the channeler again. They set up this guy and they do the same thing again. They make the contact.

• 55:58Speaker 05

  He sat for several minutes and then appeared in a deep trance with his Adam's apple moving up and down rapidly.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  And then they say, "We'd like you to show yourself. The time isn't right. I'm busy. The time isn't right." And they shut down. So Friend goes back to Ray Patterson. He talks to his commanding general. And he said, "This woman is unbelievable. This guy's Adam's apple is moving up and down." He says, "Something's going on here. We should, we should investigate this woman and see what's going on here." And then the general says, "Another agency has it. Hands off." And we never hear anything more, but Arthur Lundell, in these conversations with Dr. McDonald, James McDonald, is talking about this woman. You can, you can tell he's talking about this woman. It's this amazing case with this woman.

• 56:39Jesse Michels?

  And she is somehow, Lundell is in communication via her with like Townsend Brown and some of these other scientists? Or Lundell's directly in communication with Townsend Brown?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Well, Lundell's gathering the material. Like he's basically, you know, gathering all the material from around.

• 56:54Jesse Michels?

  Do you know he was in touch with Townsend Brown?

• 56:56Speaker 02

  No, I don't know.

• 56:56Jesse Michels?

  But with a lot of experiencers?

• 56:59Speaker 02

  Not experiencers. He was like James McDonald.

• 57:01Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 57:02Speaker 02

  He had a lot of meetings. McDonald would go to Washington, they'd go for dinner and they would talk and stuff like that. And he was in, he was running this operation with this, with this channeler. And I heard stories about when he was dying, he was talking about really weird stuff that he'd never talked about before and stuff like that. He was just, it was sort of like part of his job. And he was like the, the guy that went into Kennedy's office. So when Kennedy had the Cuban Missile Thing, they do the briefing and they come in and he's got the board. And he said, "This is a missile. There's a missile launcher." That was Arthur Lundell. And he got an award from Kennedy for that.

• 57:35Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned the nineteen sixty-four Vandenberg sighting. Bob Jacobs, this famous case. You know, I've interviewed him. I find him to be extremely credible. I actually just interviewed a guy named Richard Barth. Who, the same month, in September of nineteen sixty-four, was stationed at Vandenberg Air Force Base and was abducted and taken on a craft while he was guarding a missile station.

• 57:56Speaker 06

  I was just terrified. The next thing I know, I'm out, you know, and I don't know if I passed out or it's just blank at that point. Then I come to and I'm inside this. It's the circular world.

• 58:08Jesse Michels?

  So pretty wild, you know, and maybe it was the same thing. There is apparently footage of this Bob Jacobs, you know, this, you know, UFO wrapping around this dummy nuclear warhead and Atlas V missile. Is that right?

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think I sent you audio of, I got it from Bob Emmaniger.

• 58:27Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  So Bob Emmaniger was a producer and he worked for Gray Advertising, which according to lots of people is a front company for the CIA. And the story was-

• 58:36Jesse Michels?

  Was that Gordon Gray, Gordon Gray or?

• 58:39Speaker 02

  I'm not sure. It was Gray Advertising. So they ran the UFO Past Present Future.

• 58:43Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  UFOs, UFOs that has begun.

• 58:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Then famous 1988 documentary just before Reagan left. And the story was Reagan allowed the, the whole thing about the Falcon and the Conductor to come out and the alien at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, that was UFO cover up live. And they had the broad in live feed from Russia in 1989. And that was Gray Advertising out of New York. And the rumor was that they were behind this. Bob told me the story that, that some guy had messed up a documentary on the Vietnam War. So they came to him and he was actually Alan Sandler. So it was Bob Emmaniger and then Alan Sandler owns the studio. And Bob says, I was the guy that did all the work. I did all the music for the thing. I did, he wrote the book, which was a big bestselling book, UFOs Past Present Future.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  And he just, Alan Sandler just made the connections with the CIA and stuff. Like when Burroughs was regressed, they were, they wanted to do the aggression. They said, what are we going to do? And he said, Alan said, hang on. He goes in the next room. I got, I got two guys and they were CIA is regressionists that, that regressed Burroughs from the Reynolds from Forrest case. And they were involved in that. They never put it in their documentaries, but they, they had this, this tape. So anyway, so Bob had, was getting all this material and he had sort of gotten authorization. He'd been called to Norton Air Force Base in about 1973. He was connected to Holloman, who was the chief of staff for Nixon. He'd gone to school with him. Holloman was one year old.

• 1:00:12Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Haldeman, yeah.

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he knew him and he knew the guy, head of communications. And so he gets this deal. They go to a Hall, Norton Air Force Base. Paul Shartle, the security manager comes out and he says, we want you to do this documentary on dolphins. We want you to do this documentary on 3D holography. And we looked bad in the Vietnam War. We want to reestablish the American as a good military, as a good thing and stuff like that. And that's what they were doing. These eight documentaries. And that's when he says, and we'd also like you to do this other documentary on UFOs, but we'd like you to hide it below the other eight documentaries. And Bob says, UFOs? Are you kidding me? And then he's, and the guy says, yeah. Real foes? Who has to do UFOs? And the guy said, well, yeah, it's real. And he tells about the, the landing.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  And then Bob's going, I can't believe it. For all these years I've been saying Margaret, his wife, she's really into UFOs and all this sort of stuff. He says, Margaret, will you quit reading those tabloids that the alien had my baby? This is so embarrassing. And then he says, suddenly he's going, they're telling me this is for real? And so he goes, whatever, you know, so they, they go. And then he said they get access to anything they want. He said, they walked into Pentagon, they didn't sign in. They walk in the Pentagon and just walk right in and, and then the guy said in the Pentagon, he said, you guys, you guys are causing us trouble. The phone lines light, every time you idiots do something like this, the phone line lights up and we have to deal with all this sort of stuff. And then Alan Sandler says, what the hell are you talking about? You guys invited us here. And then the guy shut up. And so they had all this access and they were dealing with Coleman, who was the spokesman for Blue Book at the Air Force, Colonel Coleman.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  And they'd been given the Holloman Air Force Base film, which is this famous story that the landing, that thing landed. It's the basis of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. That's where Close Encounters of the Third Kind, they have three UFOs. They come over Holloman, the two move off, the one lands, the door opens. According to some people, they had flown in generals for this, for this event. They knew what was going to happen. It was being filmed from a helicopter. Linda Howes said from four different locations, they were filming this thing. And the being gets out.

• 1:02:07Jesse Michels?

  How did they know it was going to happen?

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Uh, they had, this is comes from 59, that all the time. There was a story back in the 50s that the American military through the fighter jets were using lights. They were trying to communicate with lights to make contact. They've always been trying to make contact. And this is a very sensitive subject. If you've seen the last interview with James Lakatsky. He does an interview a couple of months back and they asked him, have we had communication? And he said, I can't talk about that.

• 1:02:37Speaker 07

  Has there, to your knowledge, been any contact at a government level with any non-human intelligence beings? Yes or no?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  I can't make a statement on that.

• 1:02:49Speaker 07

  Do you know?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  I can't make a statement on that either.

• 1:02:53Speaker 07

  Oh, that's a rough one.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  And then we asked Walker, Dr. Eric Walker, we'll get into, but we asked Walker, who I think is the highest level of contact anybody's ever had. We said to Walker, has there ever been a communication? We promised not to tell. That's what he said three years ago. We promised not to tell. So this communication team seems to be very, very touchy that they've made communication. But you can see the Frances Swan thing and then the Holloman thing that they're making success, that they're making these contacts. They're somehow-

• 1:03:17Jesse Michels?

  So they land in 1964 at Holloman Air Force Base.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Well, there's two different stories. So Bob told me absolutely it was May of 1971. And then Richard Doherty comes up and says, no, no, no, it was, it was 64 at White Sands and they got lost. And I'm going, oh, come on. And then, so what happens is Linda starts telling the 64 story. I'm saying, no, it's 71. And that's what happens in, in this world is you put two different stories out. And then me and Linda started, we didn't fight, but we're, I'm right, you're wrong. It was 71. Bob says it was 71. It was six o'clock in the morning. He seemed to have all the details of, of what was going on. And he actually knew where this thing had been parked. They parked the UFO in a hangar. So he, he talks about when they, when they're doing the filming in 75, they say, we'd like to go to Holloman. They'd like to go to Holloman and film. So they phone up Holloman and the base commander goes,

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  you want to do what? You want to come on? This is a top secret base. You're crazy. You're not coming on my base. They hang up the phone. They had this Verona guy. They had a guy, I think he was a major, a major Verona who was in the Pentagon, who was their guy that moved stuff around, made calls and stuff like that. And they also had a guy by the name of Betsky, the CIA guy that Bob told me was on cam, he was there every time they filmed. He was there, the whole project. This guy was there, sitting there, didn't say what he was doing. It's Dick Betsky guy. Had his, his card and stuff like that. So this other one was the, it was Betsky and then this second guy where they're

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  doing, doing this, the filming and stuff. And Bob says, they, they, he, he goes to Coleman to get the, the film, this Holloman Air Force Base film. Which in the end, when, when it came to the end, I said, Bob, you know, it's kind of weird, you know, if it weren't for, if it weren't for the location and the time of day, this is, this story sounds exactly like Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And he said, I didn't tell you? And he said, no, he didn't tell me what? I didn't tell you I gave a copy to Spielberg? I said, no, you didn't tell me that. So the documentary came out in 75. Spielberg's Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out in 77. It's the same story.

• 1:05:19Jesse Michels?

  Has, has Spielberg seen the Holloman Air Force landing?

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  He gave them the copy of the, the documentary at least. He gave them the documentary. And he said, I told you, Annie Spielberg worked on our production crew. She was a line producer or something on his, on the production.

• 1:05:33Jesse Michels?

  That was Steven Spielberg's wife?

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Sister.

• 1:05:35Jesse Michels?

  Sister?

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  Sister.

• 1:05:36Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  And, and so he said, I told you. And then he says to me, he says, so he came up with Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And then he said, Steven Spielberg's mother came to me and says, Bob, I've seen your version of the landing and I've seen Steven's version of the landing and I like Steven's version better. So there was this whole idea, you start to wonder where this stuff is coming from. It's being fed because it was the whole story that the beings come out and there's an exchange and that gets into the whole circle thing.

• 1:05:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, and I mean, the story, the Holloman story is so fascinating. It's like these kind of tall Nordic looking beings with like Egyptian garb or whatever.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  So to make a long story short, three craft, UAP craft, UFO craft came in. One of them landed not on the runway, but on the tarmac, close to a, a hangar. The other two took off and a gangway came down, extended down and down comes a humanoid looking, very tall

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  NHI being. He looked of Northern European descent. So he goes and meets with them and they go into that hangar. So this film was made of it. And this story has circulated at various times. The Defense Audio Visual Agency, under the command of two retired generals. One of those two generals said that they got intercepted and convinced them not to allow Bela and Heineck to see that film. I've changed my mind. I used to say there was eight seconds of film. And I said to Bob, Bob, there's eight seconds of film in there. Why would they give you that? You told me you took it back. Yeah, they took it back. I said, there's eight seconds of film in there, Bob. Why would they give it? He said, it didn't show anything. And I said, well, it doesn't. And he said, it wasn't up close. You couldn't see the aliens or whatever.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  And then some guy came out about a year ago and put out a documentary with the high def version of that thing. And he said it was an F4. And I go, it's not an F4. No way. But it didn't make any sense because it was just this object coming over the hill.

• 1:07:26Jesse Michels?

  So there is a little snippet of the video that does make it into UFOs Past Present and Future. And that's this thing that got like debunked online like a year or two ago. And I thought the debunk was pretty good.

• 1:07:39Speaker 08

  This DVD, however, was a game changer. I quickly fast forwarded to the landing footage and was momentarily stunned by what that extra detail revealed.

• 1:07:49Jesse Michels?

  It's a plane. The details are faint, but the wings and landing gear are unmistakable.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Okay, but here's the full story. So when I said no, but then when I saw the high def, it is, it does look like an F4.

• 1:08:03Jesse Michels?

  Totally.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  And I said, it's an F4.

• 1:08:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  And then I got a phone call from a guy by the name Michael Luckman. I don't know if you know. He was a producer out of New York City.

• 1:08:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Dealt all with Michael Jackson, all these big things. And he wrote a book on, on music. UFOs and music. And I wrote the book right after him on UFOs and music. So he wrote the book and then he comes to me, we're talking, because we're both doing the music books and stuff like that. He's doing a second book on music and he comes to me, he says, the hoax is the whole thing. I said, what do you mean the hoax is the whole thing? He said, look at this. And I've sent you the photo. I've sent you the photo out of the British Museum. It's the, it's exactly the being that it was drawn by. I said, how, how did, how did they know how to draw it? And he said, the guy who did my storyboards, he drew it. So Shartle described the being and his storyboard guy was drawing the being and that's what they draw. It is identical. And he's, and I go, holy cow, it is identical. So I went to Bob, I said, hey Bob, what's the deal here?

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  You, you have this picture in your book of this being and it's in a British museum. It's exactly the same being. It has even has the staff. And he says, well, I'll ask Alan. So you ask Alan and then of course, one starts going back and forth. He said, we'll sue the ass off of him. He's just, Alan was just furious. We're going to sue them and this sort of stuff. And that's where it sort of died. But then I started to real.

• 1:09:16Jesse Michels?

  So the whole thing was fake?

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  They were given, so they were given, they, they had to storyboard it. So they were given the film and had to pull the film back. Then they said, you got to storyboard the thing, make up the story. So it starts, this may have happened in the future, may have happened in the past. And then they do this hypothetical as this thing comes down.

• 1:09:33Jesse Michels?

  So the video, so the video in UFOs past, future is fake.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  It was given to them by the Pentagon. He said, we were given this because this is where, why? He said, well, that's what they gave us.

• 1:09:41Jesse Michels?

  And the Pentagon storyboarded out this fake thing.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  The whole story and then they got the eight seconds, which I assumed was from the, from the actual video. But it doesn't make any sense because the original video, the story is there's three UFOs come in and then the one drops. This is just a single video.

• 1:09:54Jesse Michels?

  Your, your take is that there is a real event.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, absolutely.

• 1:09:58Jesse Michels?

  Sandler and Emmane Agar did see the real video.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Sandler saw it for sure.

• 1:10:03Jesse Michels?

  But they essentially came out with this storyboarded fake version of it.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  But they, they may not have even known it was fake. They were given that eight seconds of video and they didn't know. And of course, Shartle is describing to the.

• 1:10:15Jesse Michels?

  Which is an age old intel tactic where you, you send something, which especially at the time, if you look at that F4 video, it looks like a UFO. You know, like that's going to be hard to debunk then.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Jesse Michels?

  And so it stays in this sort of liminal space.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Sure. That's what they do. They did with Lazar. They put Lazar out there and waited for him to blow up. They knew he was going to blow up. And that's, that's what they do is they put something in there that'll discredit the case. And once it gets discredited, then you get the story out, but you don't spill the milk. Once you spill the milk and actually make a statement as to what actually happened, you can't put it back.

• 1:10:44Jesse Michels?

  So you inoculate the public from the truth. You, you actually.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  It's that whole Rand study thing from the 1960s, that if you don't desensitize people, it's all going to fall apart.

• 1:10:54Jesse Michels?

  So UFO world, you know, especially intel world, saw that strategy as somewhat effective. And there's, there's a Rand paper about this where if you put out a conspiracy that is basically like the truth, but you muddy it up and put kind of falsities in it. You put out the truth and then you debunk it and then you're crazy if you believe this stuff. And it, and it's kind of debunked for good. Like it's, it's kind of radioactive. If anybody else wants to look at it going forward, is that, is that right?

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  But it still keeps going. The story keeps being retold, whatever the story is. People don't believe it, but it just keeps going, keeps going.

• 1:11:28Jesse Michels?

  But, but then that makes things like the Bob Lazar story really important because they, they're, they are true. And so, so not falling prey to the, the strategy is actually like looking into the Bob Lazar story and realizing that this actually happened in your opinion or what do you think?

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  Well, remind me, go back to the film at Vandenberg. But the Lazar thing, my interpretation and Naps said he thought, and John Lear told me, he thought my version was the closest. I think it was.

• 1:11:55Jesse Michels?

  Well, real quick, just before you get into that, film at Vandenberg, does it exist now? Because Lou Elizondo, you know, said that in an interview with me, like, you know, a couple of years ago. So you've seen the video.

• 1:12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Jesse Michels?

  So you know this is a real thing.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:09Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God. But I don't know what to make of it. Do you, do you think that?

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Okay. So I gave you the clip of Bob Emmane Agar talking about it. So what happened was Bob had all this film and then, so I'm talking to him about, they sent the film back. And then he said, we got film from NASA, we photographs, all this sort of stuff. And I said, so he sent the Holman thing. Did you send the, the other stuff? Remember you talked about that film about Vandenberg where they shot down the missile? And he goes, no, I don't think we sent that one back. And I go, you didn't send it back? I said, where is it? And he said, I don't know. I guess it's in Alan Sandler's vault. I said, really? And, and he said, yeah, I'll ask Alan. So he comes back and he says, yeah, Alan's got it. And then I saw, so I was, at the time I was working on a book on the president, which you never did,

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  with, with Angela Joyner, who broke the Stevensville, Texas story and ended up losing her job and never worked again after she lost her job. And so I was working with her and I said, Angela, we got this film. We know, I know who this film is. If we get it off Sandler, man, we'd be famous. This will be the unbelievable film. He's got the film. So she was good friends with, with, with Bob Emmane Agar and Bob liked her and stuff like that. So they made this deal and Angela Joyner could go to Oregon to Sandler and he would show her the video, but she had to go by herself. I couldn't go. And there was always this story that Sandler liked women and stuff. So Heather heard this rumor and she really didn't want to go by herself.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  So then it came down and then she decided, I'll, I'll tell James Fox. So she told James Fox about it. And then James Fox said, really? So then he went and he contacted Alan Sandler and then Alan said, if you, if you want it, it's 25,000 bucks to use in your, your documentary. I think that was to use in the documentary. So James went around recruiting and suddenly got to 25,000 bucks. He went back and he said, okay, I got 25,000 bucks. Can I use the film? And he said, no, I talked to my lawyer. My lawyer said, you got lots of money. You don't need 25,000 bucks. This will ruin your life. Forget it. You know, you turn it down. You don't need 25,000 bucks. So he said, no, I'm not going to do it. And so James went to, they were dealing with Congress. So they went to the, I don't know who it was in Congress, these congressional committees.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  And then he said, this guy's got a classified film. It's top secret. Quinton, all his name is on the cover of this thing. It's top secret. It still belongs to the government. He's got a, an illegal film. And so then it was the deal where they'd go back to Sandler and, and Congress was going to go back and say, you have to turn over the film and we're going to get the film and the Congress is going to release the film. And then James said, the deal, he felt the deal with Congress was that he'd get a copy of the film for his documentary in exchange for them, him helping move the film. So the film, I guess, is still in Sandler's vault.

• 1:14:49Jesse Michels?

  Where does Sandler live?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  In Oregon.

• 1:14:51Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and so he's, he's got that. So, and Bob talks about that. They brought in the guy that did the analysis for the Robertson panel.

• 1:15:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  And he viewed it and he said, it's one in a million.

• 1:15:03Jesse Michels?

  So the video, it's reported that the video is actually really amazing. Like it's a really incredible video.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they brought, they brought in an analyst, a top analyst.

• 1:15:12Jesse Michels?

  Why won't Sandler just let it out? You have the president of the United States literally tweeting, saying, you know, we need to get to the bottom of this. I've tasked Pete Headseth, the, the secretary of war with looking into UFOs, getting to the bottom of this complex issue. Why doesn't Sandler just put this thing out? He'd be the people's champion.

• 1:15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's what I would, but that's the thing I found is I, I like, I've liked so many documents. And I'm saying, has anybody ever just leaked a document? Am I the only person that's leaking documents here? And I know a lot of people are just sitting on stuff for whatever reason. I don't know why they're sitting on, like when I had the Wilson leak document, when I put that thing on the internet and then I.

• 1:15:47Jesse Michels?

  How did you get your hands on the Wilson Davis memo?

• 1:15:49Speaker 02

  I was approached by James Rigney out of Australia. So the way that the chain of custody was, Mitchell had it, he had died. Everybody in the family was interested in all the space stuff because it was worth piles of money. And the files, the UFO stuff, nobody was interested in. So there was an aerospace guy there, you know, from Australia, who said, well, don't throw it out. I'll take it. So he had this big pile of documents and he takes it back to Australia. And James Rigney is, is going to visit this guy, seven hours away or something. And the guy says, I got these documents from the Edgar Mitchell collection. And he's looking through them like, holy cow. And he's, he starts photographing these documents. He keeps them for a long, I don't know how many years he has them. He keeps them.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  And then we're at this conference together and he gets this vision in the middle of the night that he should get this document out. So he wakes up and he phones his wife. He says, scan the document. The two documents, I think the second is better than the first. The, the, the, the one that everybody's interested in is the Wilson leak document. I like the other one better. But anyway, he gets the doc, first couple of pages of the document, of the Wilson leak document. He puts it on a little iPad. So he, I'm leaving the hotel. I'm going to Tucson. And I got to make it. I mean, I'm not on time. And then he comes, he says, can I, can I show you something? I said, well, I'm kind of busy. I'm heading out right now. And he said, this is important. Can I, can I show you something? I said, well, James, you know, I got to be in Tucson at six o'clock and all this other stuff. And he said, 10 minutes.

• 1:17:16Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  So, okay, 10 minutes. So he says, gives me the iPad. He walks off. I look at the iPad, first page, I see Oak Shannon. Or they, now they, some people call him Oki Shannon. I, I call him Oak Shannon. I see Oak Shannon's name. I see Eric Davis's name and I go. Oh my God.

• 1:17:33Jesse Michels?

  What's?

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  This is the real deal.

• 1:17:35Jesse Michels?

  What is it?

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Because, because it's a, it's a document, but I really didn't read it. I've never read the document. I, I was gonna put it out. I never read the document. All I was interested in was, nobody in the world knows who Oak Shannon is except for me. Because Eric Davis had given me his notes from the Advanced Physics Theoretical Working Group. So I knew who Oak Shannon was and I knew he was the real deal. And there's Eric Davis talking and it starts on this stuff and I'm going, what am I gonna do? Like I got this thing. Should I try to photograph it? Well, because he may not give me the document when it comes, when he comes back from wherever he went. Should I try to photograph this thing and you know, get it, get it surreptitiously? And then he comes back and I said, where did you get this thing from? And then he told me the story and I said, I'm putting out a book next year. Do you think I could just put it in the book?

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  And I won't say nothing. I just put it in the book. That's how we got on the internet. Just put it in the book, not say anything about it. And somebody's gonna pick up on it and it's like, where did this document come from? And then it was sort of blow away because my problem with the document, when I, when I saw, the two pages was bad. But when he sent it to me, it was 15 pages long. And I'm going, oh my God. And it's like all the people, I know all the people in the document and it's like, now I'm gonna go cut their throat. And I'm thinking, oh, I don't know if I can do this. And that was where I got the lawyer and I'm going like, I don't know what to do with this thing. I gotta get it on the internet without me being in the middle of this. Cause Eric Davis is me, you know, like he may lose his security clearance over this. And, and I'm thinking this is, this is not good. And then he sent me the alien autopsy document and that had Kit Green. And I'm going, holy shoot, all this stuff.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  And then he sent me two other documents. One was a condolence letter to the guy who flew, the first guy flew across the ocean, his wife.

• 1:19:12Jesse Michels?

  Charles Lindbergh.

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Lindbergh, when he died, there was a condolence letter that Edgar Mitchell sent. So that was one. Then there was another one that talked about the meetings, the NIS meetings, when they're happening, all this sort of stuff. So he gave me four documents and so I, I tried to figure out what I was gonna do. And then some guy said, I, I said, well, in the end I said, okay, I'm, I'm not gonna cover it up. Anybody asked me for the document, because I was talking about it. I, they say, can I get a copy of the document? Yeah, sure. And I give them a copy. And then they would leak the document and I would be sort of out of my hands. So the one guy said, uh, can I see it? So I said, yeah. And so I sent it to him and he was an AI expert. And then he phones me, he said, let me do, let me deal with it. And then about a month later, he phones me from, he says, I'm in an elevator in Chicago. He said, you know that document you gave me? I think it just went on the internet and it was on the internet for months and months, months before Dolan found it.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  It was on there. And then when Dolan found it, of course it just blew up and suddenly it was viral. And, and there was all this thing about it was hoax and all this stuff. We knew right away. I mean, there's, there's no way this thing is hoax that we knew exactly where they come from. And it caused probably the biggest break in the, in the, the whole thing that's real. That there is actually a legacy program and it's cut off from the high level people. If you don't have need to know, you don't, you don't get to know. So that was that.

• 1:20:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. The Wilson Davis memo, definitely sort of a revelation, but also took place after Bob Lazar. And so I wanted to talk about Bob Lazar because he's this really important guy who I think, you know, really is leading modern disclosure in some ways, because you have all these high level guys saying there's an existence of reverse engineering craft retrieval programs now as high up as the Director of National Intelligence. You know, former DNI, James Clapper, you know, uh, John Brennan, you know, multiple CIA directors, Woolsey, people like that now saying that this is a thing. But then no one seems to have worked on the craft, except this one guy, you know, from, uh, from 1989. And so, uh, you have a really interesting theory about, about Bob Lazar and I'd love to hear it.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. The way I looked at it and John sort of agreed with me was, um, the intention of the whole thing was the, the idea where you're doing this gradual disclosure thing. So you gotta sort of tell people, we have UFOs. So people sort of, yeah, yeah, probably UFOs, probably working on it. But then the idea we got crafts and that they had them at Area 51. So basically they take a guy who's a, you know, a pirate flag over his, over his house. He's got jet engine cars. He's like totally crazy man, you know, after the event. He's worked, doing computer work for the, for the, the prostitute and all that sort of stuff. And he's just like, like a wild guy. And they figure it's, the whole thing is if you want to, if you want it out, you give it to the president to make a speech.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  But they're not doing that. So they give it to somebody whose reputation is, is really not that good. And then the person puts the thing out and, uh, it gets out and nobody believes it. But the story starts to float around and it gets repeated and repeated and repeated. And then everybody says, well, they got aircrafts at Area 51. Now, uh, so what I believe happened was, um, the, the story about the, uh, Teller is right. But the thing is, he phones Teller in November and he's on the base December the 6th. And he's got a top secret Q clearance. I mean, you can't get a top secret Q clearance in three weeks. There's no way. And it's almost like, hey, let's put this guy on the base. Cause he, he gets asked a question by Teller, do you want to work at Livermore or do you want to work up at the site?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  And he said, well, I like to work up at the site. So he gets that offer and he goes up there. And then exactly what I think they intended him to do was he was friends with John Lear. He first, he didn't believe anything John Lear said. And then suddenly he said, well, you know, uh, maybe, maybe this is true. And he starts, you know, looking at it or whatever. And, uh, when he gets up to there, he comes, I think it's December the 6th. John Lear tells me a story. I'm sitting there, he says, I'm writing checks. And, uh, Bob Lazar comes in and he says, John, it's real. He said, what do you mean it's real? It's real. They've got it. It's up at the site. He said, is it theirs or ours? I said, it's theirs. He said, but what the hell are you doing to my house? You know, the phone, the phone's gonna be tapped. You know, they're gonna be watching you. What are you crazy? Get back and go back to the site, go back to the site and come back in six months and tell me what's going on.

• 1:23:18Speaker 02

  And then I started looking at how, how it unfolds. So he comes in there and I train people. So I know like you're training people, you show them where the washroom is. You know, the second day, second visit there, he's getting, he's getting these documents. He's got like 125 documents and he's reading all this stuff. It's a need to know program. He's talked about, you couldn't talk to the guy across from you. And you, it was so compartmentalized, but they give them all these documents and tell them about all these programs. And the one that was, gave it away was the, the idea that there had been this shootout down below in, in a base at Dulce. And that 64 special forces guys got killed because they, they had arms and they were not allowed to have arms. And the Grady shot them and this, this story. And Bob had one of the documents that it happened at Area 51.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  I go, oh, they're doing it again. They're, they're putting two stories out and, and, and this sort of thing. And, uh, so I said, well, what they wanted is they wanted to show him. So they take him to the site to show him all this kind of stuff. And then they bring him back to John Lear and they want John Lear, John Lear's gonna tell the story. And everybody at that time knew John Lear was a wild card. He was just, you know, off the rails people. I was insane. And, um, you know, he's doing all the stuff with the MJ 12 and the underground bases and, you know, you know, people being assassinated and all sorts of stuff he was into. And it was like John would tell the story and everybody would go, yes, John Lear, don't listen to John Lear. But the story would get out and as NAP even admits.

• 1:24:37Jesse Michels?

  So he was like the National Enquirer at the time.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. They, they needed a story out, but they needed plausible deniability. They needed this thing to fall apart. So they, they have all this stuff like the, the, the school and the, the, all, all the stuff that would, people would find out about. And, uh, it would discredit the story, but the story come out. And that's where, uh, NAP says, well, if this was a counterintelligence operation, it hung the guy that, that, that, that came up with it. Cause it totally backfired. Cause what happened was, and I, I have a different view. I mean, you guys are in contact with Lazar, you can confirm with him. But my understanding through Tim Good, who had interviewed him at the time, was they'd only been at the base five or six times. If you take a look at his, his W2 form from 1988, it's only 900 bucks. He was there for a month, 900 bucks. He can't be working full time.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  And, and so the whole thing was, my understanding, I may be wrong, that according to Good, he had been to base five or six times. And that in the beginning of the year, he was no longer being called to the base. And so he, that's when he took John Lear and, and Huff and the wives and stuff. They took the motor, John Lear's motor home and they went up there and they, they filmed this thing. And the thing was that they filmed at eight o'clock Wednesday night or whatever it was, Thursday night or whatever. They test at the same time every time. And this thing came up from the mountain and John filmed it on, on camera.

• 1:25:53Speaker 09

  I told John Lear too, yeah.

• 1:25:55Jesse Michels?

  And you even brought them to.

• 1:25:57Speaker 09

  Yeah. Oh yeah. To see the test. Yeah. Because I had the test flight schedule.

• 1:26:01Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:26:01Speaker 09

  So I know it's a Wednesday night. Yeah. We're going out there and you guys are gonna see it.

• 1:26:07Speaker 10

  This is John Lear and today is March 22nd, 1989. We're standing just about, uh, eight miles due east of Groom Lake, Nevada, the super government, uh, secret test site.

• 1:26:18Speaker 02

  And, uh, the, the question is, if, if Lear, if, if, um, uh, Bob Lazar was, he said, a senior scientist, but wouldn't have been a senior scientist just starting, how, why would they tell him? It's need to know. If he can't talk to the guy sitting across, why would they tell him when the test is? He wasn't being allowed up at the site. So that's why he got upset. And that's when he took people out and he said, I'll show you. And he started taking people out to the site. And that's when he got, that's when they got caught the third time. And, uh, they bring him to Indian Springs, they put a gun to his head and they said, we told you this is top secret. Didn't mean to go tell your friends and stuff. They never fired him. So why did they not fire him? They didn't fire him. Lear tells the story.

• 1:26:57Jesse Michels?

  He was held at gunpoint after he showed Gina.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  The morning after. Dennis, this Dennis guy said.

• 1:27:03Jesse Michels?

  And they still didn't fire him.

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  They didn't fire him. They, they, they said, because your wife is fooling around, uh, you got psychological problems. Uh, we're gonna pull, they pulled his clearance for a while or something like that. But then he gets invited back to the base and he's so scared, he doesn't want to go back to the base. Cause he figures, he remembers this thing drinking this, this stuff that it was really bitter and he couldn't, his memory didn't go. And he figures, if I go on the base, I'm never coming back. So he turned them down. They invited him back to the base after this event happened. And that's the whole thing. They, they wanted more stuff out.

• 1:27:33Jesse Michels?

  Chris, is that true? That he was still invited back to the base?

• 1:27:38Jesse Michels?

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• 1:30:29Jesse Michels?

  Chris, is that true? That he was still invited back to the base?

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  He got, they took, they took him to Indian Springs and they, they put the gun to his head. Told him, told him, when you said it was top secret, that they mean to bring your friends out to look at the test. The question is, how do you know when the test was? If he's just a new guy, and it's all compartmentalized, what do you know, how do you know where the test is gonna be? And then the other thing is that, that he said, they didn't fire him. They just pulled the security clearance for a period of time because his wife was fooling around with the, with the aviation guy.

• 1:30:55Speaker 09

  There was a gap.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, yeah. And then they call him back to the base. And then he turns it down. So he never did get fired. And if it's top secret and he's all this stuff, you'd fire the guy on the spot, which means they wanted to take him back on the base.

• 1:31:07Speaker 00

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• 1:31:36Speaker 02

  Because they still need him to go tell some more stuff out there in, in the, in the public. They wanted some more stuff out. Wow. And maybe Tim Good is wrong, but Tim Good said he was only there a couple of times at the base. And that's why he brought people to the base. He was so upset that he wasn't getting called up to the base.

• 1:31:49Jesse Michels?

  To be clear, your view is that Bob Lazar did work on genuine UFO craft?

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  He was there.

• 1:31:56Jesse Michels?

  That is not of human origin. You just think that maybe one of his superiors wanted this out, knew that he was discreditable, and so kind of pushed the thing out. And it was a counter intel op gone awry because it blew up way beyond what they, they never expected him to go on.

• 1:32:11Speaker 02

  When, when they got caught, then, then he had this thing where, uh, it happens by accident, where, uh, Nap calls up John Lear, and he said, I'm missing a guest on tonight's show. They pulled out. I need a live guest. Well, you got that guy at the base, let's put him on camera. And then they do the back thing with the Dennis, where they put him backlit, and then it goes viral around the world, just blows up. And that's what they didn't expect. They didn't expect that a guy with all these Peabody Awards and Emmys and stuff would suddenly do the story, and it would suddenly it's got credibility and goes viral. And that's where they had to, they had the, the land where people were going up this Bob Good, Bobby Goodman was, had a radio show at the time. And he, it was every night. It was like coast to coast. Everybody's listening to this thing

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  about the base and what's going on, and the, the Lazar story, and it was just viral. And then he was taking buses up on, on the weekend. All these buses would go up and sit up on top of the mountain, and they would actually watch the base. They could watch things landing on the base and stuff like that. So that's when Clinton took all this land back. They made a land grab to take more land away to force people to make the base bigger. So they were 25 miles away instead of 11 miles away from looking at the base.

• 1:33:16Jesse Michels?

  They also brought him out to see a test himself at the site.

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:20Jesse Michels?

  And where he, he went under the craft and he saw it flying above him and stuff.

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  And that's the thing. They show, they show you different things. Like Bob Emmerich told me this story, the same thing. He told me a bizarre story, that DARPA, when he was doing UFOs Passports and Future, they took him through DARPA, and he was seeing all the stuff they were doing, all the weird stuff. And the one, he said, was a, was a room with a computer in it. And he was in there and this guy was sitting at this table. And he said to the guy, he said, tell Bob what you're doing. I can't, I can't clear it. I can't tell him. He said, tell him what you're doing. He said, I'm talking to this machine with my mind. And then Bob says, okay, tell him this word. And the computer, Bob says, it was like a voice like Stephen Hawking. He's like, well, I can't remember what the word was, weather. And he's like, holy cow, this guy was doing this test. This is 1974 or whatever. This guy's been this mental thing with this

• 1:34:06Speaker 02

  computer at DARPA. And, uh, so Bob said they, he got these tours as well of all these different, weird things that the military was doing and stuff like that. And they sort of wanted out that they, and that's why they use film people, because they want you to fictionalize it. Just tell the story. And even if you get everything wrong, or Chase Brandon, if you remember the Chase Brandon's.

• 1:34:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  So Chase Brandon comes out, and he writes The Christos Conundrum. And then he says he's gonna write another book on UFOs. And The Christos Conundrum was the, the idea of how did the CIA handle the Roswell crash? And it went through review, according to some of the stories, eight times. And it was like, change this, change that. And it's the whole story. Like, if you say that you want to tell your story, you're a spy, you saved the world from nuclear attack, yeah, you can write your story, just change the names, change the dates.

• 1:34:48Jesse Michels?

  Do you think other elements of that story are true? So this idea that, uh, it's this guy, Chalmers, this mathematical whiz, he's a part of the OSA, which is an offshoot of the OSS, you know, this pre-CIA organization in the 40s. And they find this like crystal tablet that reads timelines. There's a committee that's brought together that sounds a lot like the Majestic Twelve, this elite military scientific, you know, intelligence unit that like governs the UFO issue. But that he almost goes in and out of like liminal space where he's like taught things by these beings and then comes back and that sort of determines how, you know, the government operates at a really high level. Is that, do you think that any of it, because he

• 1:35:30Jesse Michels?

  starts the book off with this Francis Bacon quote that, you know, some truths are so unbelievable that you have to tell them in fiction?

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. He was the guy, the CIA guy in Hollywood.

• 1:35:40Jesse Michels?

  And that's a pseudonym, by the way. We don't know who Chase Brandon is.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  And he's gone. He's disappeared. Yeah. He's supposed to have done the UFO book and he didn't do it. But I quote, I'll quote what he said. If you want to go to read, read my book. If you want to learn something, read between the lines. So he said, and that was his job. Just, if you're doing a movie on the CIA, he comes to you and says, hey, Jesse, I heard you're doing a movie on the CIA. Yeah. You ever been to CIA? I could take you to CIA. You could look through the CIA. I could take you for a tour. And then you have a better understanding of what we do. And so it's like the idea, instead of killing you, they, they walk you down the path they want you to walk. They try to get in front of the parade and lead you. And they use these manipulation tactics to get people going in the right direction. So Chase Brandon was one of these people who just sort of came out and, and, and disappeared. It was this idea that, uh, they, they do control

• 1:36:27Speaker 02

  Hollywood. They do come in and like, like Emmerich said, there was somebody on the set the whole time. A CIA guy never left the set. And that the guy from communications, uh, that was head of communications for Nixon, phoned him every single day while they were taping, every day.

• 1:36:40Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of being, you know, pushed down the wrong track by intel.

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:45Jesse Michels?

  I think a lot of the people who have been at the forefront of disclosure for the last 10 years or so, seem to be really excited that Trump is making an announcement. And it's, it's interesting. To me, that it almost feels like their plan is being sort of executed in some ways. Do you find any like daylight between the way you view the phenomenon? And the kind of, I don't know, like mass disclosure kind of narrative that's being, you know, this idea that, because it seems like they're saying all these things like crash retrieval programs, you know, reverse engineering operations, we've had programs forever. They're saying all this stuff. And then you see like conspiracy, you know, people online who are like very kind of like, you know,

• 1:37:29Jesse Michels?

  anti-authority and they're like, now that like people who are high up at the CIA and DNI are saying this stuff, you know, like we think that this is like BS and some sort of narrative. But then if you actually quiz them on like their belief system, they're like, yeah, we believe we've had crash retrieval programs, reverse engineering. So I'm like, what is the core secret? Cause that, that can't be the most important, because I actually agree. I think the irreverence towards those organizations is very valid, given this history, this pattern that you're talking about. So I'm like, is the crash retrieval and reverse engineering operations can't be the most vital thing? There has to be something interesting, kind of metaphysically or in physics that exists beneath that, that people are, you know, from those intel organizations are trying to,

• 1:38:15Jesse Michels?

  you know, steer people clear of? Or are they just literally trying to get it out at this point? Are they like, this is their last gasp and they're trying to get it out?

• 1:38:21Speaker 02

  No, they're pushing the hardware thing. I, if you talk about the core secret, I think the core secret is still the consciousness thing.

• 1:38:28Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  It's this idea that it's not what you think it is. So when you hear Jimmy Carter, so Fox asked Jimmy Carter, so why didn't you do something when you were in, in the, in the government? He said, there are many possibilities, but nobody has answers.

• 1:38:42Speaker 11

  Did you ask when you were president? Yes, but there's a lot of different answers and nobody knows, has proof of them.

• 1:38:48Speaker 02

  And then if you listen to Barack Obama, he said, yeah, the videos are real. Yeah, we don't, we don't know what's going on.

• 1:38:53Speaker 12

  There's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We can't explain.

• 1:39:02Speaker 02

  If you listen to Jim Semivan, he says, just because you've got bodies and crafts doesn't mean you know what's going on. And he tells this story about the seven hour briefing. They tell him, these high level guys tell him, get a room in the CIA for six to eight hours. We're going to come and talk to you. And he said, these guys come in, they're from contractors, they're from military. They all got as many tickets as he has. And they walk in and he said, they scared them and shit on me. They're, they're in there and he said, they, they went through this whole thing. And then of course he gets asked in the interview, well, what do they find? What about UFOs? And he said, nothing, they haven't got anything. He says, I'll make a bet, I'll make a bet, one year of my pension against anybody. They haven't got a clue what's going on, because you've got bodies and crafts. Doesn't mean you're going to know what's going on. Yeah, we've got bodies and crafts, but we, we don't, we don't understand it. He said, but what they told me, he said, what did they tell you that scared you?

• 1:39:47Speaker 02

  And he said, they said, all the size stuff is right, everything, it's all right, all this sort of stuff. And he said, he walked around, you've got to remember, this guy was head of covert ops for the US government, for the CIA. And he said, he walked around for three months and a days. He was just, he blew them away. Whatever they told him blew him away about this size stuff. And then he said, his wife would ask him, Jimmy, okay. And he couldn't tell her what was wrong or whatever, what he had seen or whatever. And he said, he just sort of, and then they said, would you like another briefing? He said, no, no more briefings, I don't want to hear anymore. And it just blew him away. So this is this whole thing. And even you get Lukasiewicz, the latest interview he got. And, and you see, you start reading between the lines and I'm just working on this now, is this connection between near death experiences and UFOs.

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  So you get this story that Lukasiewicz tells the story. I was in a congressional facility. He puts this chapter six, first thing in this book a couple, a year ago. We were in a congressional facility, which means Congress is learning something because he's in a congressional, probably in a SCIF. And he said, with a senator, which was, it's confirmed it was Senator Reed in a SCIF. And we told them that we had breached the craft. We'd gotten into the craft and there was nothing in it. And then, so he starts getting interviewed about this and he won't go, he won't go there. So what's in the craft? I can't talk about, can't talk about it, can't talk about it. Me, the question was, they breached the craft. It's like 2011, you got in the craft in 2011? So then they finally asked him, this time they said,

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  can you talk about how you briefed the craft, how you breached the craft? He said, I can't talk about that. And so the question comes down, you hear this story that people will talk about that the craft is alive, it's conscious and that, Sir Faddy tells the story, I don't know if you've heard, talked about it, but Jack Sir Faddy tells the story. He's got a friend, he's a Navy friend. And he said, I got 99.5% that this guy's telling me, there's nothing made up. He's got craft on the east coast of the United States. It's in there and they couldn't breach the craft, they couldn't get inside the craft. Because the craft works, it's alive, it's conscious. And it's got an attitude that unless you vibrate at the right level, you can't get into craft. So this guy managed, I guess he qualified and the craft would open and the thing just opens up like molten metal.

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  The side of the craft opens, he goes in, flew the craft, it goes back together again. But unless you have the right attitude, that's how, that's how you get inside the craft. And that's why they couldn't breach the craft, they couldn't figure out how to get in the craft. You have these stories, they're using drills, they couldn't get in the craft, that the craft lets you in or it doesn't let you in. And that's what Sir Faddy is telling this story right now. He's telling the story of his friend, that he's, he's a physicist working for the Navy in this facility on the east coast with this craft. And then you start looking at near death experiences and people will talk about near death experience. And I've got a whole list of maybe 20 so far, probably going to get more. 20 of these people said, I'm in, I'm in a near death experience, I'm going in this building and the building looks like it's alive. And, and it's made out of granite, but it looks like it's alive, the, the rocks are alive. And they go in and there's these rooms.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  And the only way you can get in the room is if you vibrate at the right level. They're, they're teaching different things. And the thing opens up like molten metal, it opens up in the door. And if you're available to go in to be taught and it closes up. I'm going, that's exactly what the UFO thing talks about. Same as you talked about the crystals. So let me tell you the story of the crystal. This is, we see these crossovers where you start wondering, what's been going on here? So you talked about, Chase Brandon talked about this crystal, you can see the past, future and all this kind of stuff. And I've even asked Richard about this now, Richard Dode tells the story. The most amazing thing he ever saw in the military was a crystal. The aliens had this crystal and they could hold this crystal and they could show you the crucifixion of Jesus, they could show the past and this crystal is the most amazing thing he ever saw. So I got a friend, he's an experiencer, he's a Mormon guy out of Utah.

• 1:43:28Jesse Michels?

  Wait, who said that about the crystal?

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  Richard Dode.

• 1:43:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay, but yeah.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Okay, hang on. So you got, so you got one story about the crystal, about looking in and seeing time. And you're talking about Chase Brandon, talking about this thing timelines.

• 1:43:39Jesse Michels?

  For sure.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  You can see.

• 1:43:40Jesse Michels?

  I just don't trust Dode.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  Okay, but again, so I got this friend, so this guy's a Mormon guy. I mean, he's, he's, he's actually in hospice care. He's, he's been fighting to stay alive for the last five years. But anyway, so he tells me a story and he says, LB, who is his being, everybody always has a being. You say, you ran into a craft, what's the name of the being? And everybody has a name, they know, it's an English name and they talk, one being tells them everything that's, and you start wondering, is that a spirit guide, is it an alien, like what's going on here? Anyway, LB takes him to the spirit world three times. First time he's sort of in the dark, can't see anything. Second time, he's sort of in the dark, but he's, he's his mother, he could talk to his dead mother. He's talking to his dead mother. The third time, you take him right into the spirit world. So he, he's in the spirit world with his mother and then in this field.

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  Beautiful, you know, the, this classics, beautiful field, the grass is talking to you. It's just beautiful flowers and wonderful feeling and stuff like that. And his mother says, Ron, see that building over there? And there's this, he said, it looks like a little tiny Mormon temple over in the distance. And she says, Ron, when you die, you're going to get a room in this building. And so they go over to the building and she says, your father's got a room in the building. And you see this portal opens up and you can see his father inside his room. So he goes in and this is where the catch comes. So he goes into the building, he said, Grant, it's the weirdest thing. I went inside and it was 10 or a hundred times the size inside as it was outside. And I'm going, a hundred times the size? Are you in a UFO or are you in a spirit world here? Cause you hear the stories, Chris Bledsoe tells the story, 30 feet on the outside.

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  And he looks inside and it's the size of a football, same. He looks back outside, it's 30 feet.

• 1:45:11Jesse Michels?

  That's common.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so this guy's telling, it's in a spirit world. And then he goes in the spirit world and he goes and he, he says, his mother takes him down this building and down, and there's a table. And this table has these crystals coming out of the table. And I said, crystals? And I said, yeah. And he said, you took a look at the crystal at a certain angle and you can see all your past lives and you can see all your lives and stuff like this. I said, really? And he said, yeah. And he said, his mother said, you don't have a crystal yet, Ron, because you haven't died. As soon as you have a crystal, your crystal will come out of the table. And, and then he, he looks, he sees his dog's crystal. And he looks at his dog's crystal and his dog disappeared in 1972 or something like this. He never knew what happened to his dog. And he's watching the crystal, the, the dog's life. And he saw the neighbor came, shot the dog, threw it in the back of a pickup and took it to the dump and threw it in the dump.

• 1:45:55Jesse Michels?

  Who, who is this guy?

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  His name is Ron Johnson. He's got incredible stories.

• 1:45:59Jesse Michels?

  What's his background?

• 1:46:01Speaker 02

  He was just a heavy equipment operator, stuff like that.

• 1:46:06Jesse Michels?

  Was he working on crash retrievals or reverse engineering? Who is Sir Faddy's friend, the Navy guy?

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  We, I had a name and I put it to some people and said, no, that's not the guy. I had one name that I thought it was, but people denied it. So I'm still trying to figure out what the base was. I think Lou Elizondo talked about the base.

• 1:46:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  There's a base on the east coast, a Navy facility, I think it's called.

• 1:46:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, on the east coast. And I think that's the, the base where this guy was. But we're trying to, still trying to identify who this guy was. That told the story about flying craft and he was in charge of the project.

• 1:46:35Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there are UFO bases around in, in mountains or underwater?

• 1:46:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the mission Rama people always talk about the beings under Mount Shasta and stuff like that. And.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  But the question is, if you're a being and you come across time and space, like, why do you need to have a base?

• 1:46:52Jesse Michels?

  Base, totally.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  It doesn't make any sense. It's almost like, I think it's more etheric than, you know, than, than physical when it comes to the beings, that they can sort of go in, like, you'll, you'll have people, dead, dead people coming on the craft. So the question is, dead pets. So are they bringing these people back into physical reality into our experience where the person is being abducted in physical?

• 1:47:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Or are you being moved out of your astral body, moved onto a ship, and you're in the, in the world where all the dead people are?

• 1:47:19Jesse Michels?

  You mentioned Jim Semivan, who was very high up at the CIA.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Jesse Michels?

  Getting briefed on, you know, basically, all sorts of paranormal stuff, you know, tangentially related to UFOs. And they say that the psi stuff, the parapsychology, the idea that mind and matter are not, you know, partitions, they're connected, is the kind of real core truth. All of that is real. I find that really interesting because you're one of the few people who've had direct interactions with this guy named Eric Walker. The direct interactions with anybody who's been rumored to be on this sort of majestic 12 committee, this committee of elite science, military, you know, people who are like in charge of the UFO matter. They were rumored to, you know, be started under Truman and Eisenhower. And Eric Walker is supposed to be a part of this group. He runs all sorts of material

• 1:48:08Jesse Michels?

  science initiatives. He's a president of Penn State. What was that interaction like?

• 1:48:13Speaker 02

  Well, it was wild because he would talk in rhymes and riddles. And at the time, my co-author wanted to just sort of edit the stuff. I said, no, edit it. Just put it out. Just, it's crazy stuff, the good stuff, whatever. I always thought he was like, kind of goofy, some of the stuff he said, but some of the stuff actually turns out to be right. Like the whole thing where he says, let me ask you a question. And you'd suddenly, that's what happened to me when I had the download. That sort of popped in my head. I'd forgotten you'd even said it. He said at one point, he's, they're talking about the MJ 12 committee. Is it all Americans? Is it more than 12? All this sort of stuff. And he cuts the guy off. He said, look, let me ask you a question. What do you know about ESP? And the guy had no answer. He said, look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in by the control group. Very few people understand

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  how it works. And I didn't realize the significance until I suddenly, Ben Rich had said it two years later, exactly the same question. When Hartson said, how did they get here? And then Ben Rich turns around and says, let me ask you a question. What do you know about ESP? And John Hartson says, it means everything in time and space is connected. So that's how it works. And that's this thing where, where, where I look at it, it, I moved away from the ET going to material wormholes or something to this portal type thing. And the key thing I've got is the tape from Ron Pendolphy. So Ron Pendolphy ran the weird desk?

• 1:49:28Jesse Michels?

  Well, I want to stick with Eric Walker real quick. So, did you get the vibe or sense that this was a guy who had been privy to?

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  Well, we knew, we knew his background. We knew he'd been on Defense Science Board, that he, he was chairman of the board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which at the time was the top military think tank. That's where DARPA came from. That's where the Jasons came from. They came out of Institute. He's the guy that set them up. He worked on a defense policy, even in a letter. He says, I worked on defense policy with, in 1947, with Vannevar Bush.

• 1:49:57Jesse Michels?

  And he admitted he was a part of the 1965 Kecksburg crash. He, he was on the scene.

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  That was later. I, because he said some things. I got the interview. I said, phone him back. Ask him if he was at Kecksburg. Because he was talking about things that seemed to indicate he was at Kecksburg. And he said, I was there. So what?

• 1:50:11Jesse Michels?

  And when he, when he said control group, what do you think he meant?

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  Well, they were asking him about, about MJ 12. Is it all Americans? Is it more than 12 people? And that's when he cut him off. He said, let me ask you a question. And he called, he described them as a group of elites. If you were invited into their group, I would know. And then he would say things that, that, that came up later that we, like, there was one story that-

• 1:50:32Jesse Michels?

  When he said elites, what do you, like, elite?

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Like elite, elite, like, I mean, mentally, physically, whatever, like, they were not ordinary people, like, almost like Von Neumann or people of that status, you know, that they were just really, really standout people that could do calculations in their head or stuff like that. That's, that's my impression, that they were, they were not just academics. So they're trying to get, are they military, are they academics and stuff? And they did ask them all the questions. We, we put all the transcripts and they would ask those questions. Like, was there military people involved? And, and was it in the communication? He said, we promised not to tell. And now you're hearing this thing with communication. Every time someone gets asked a question about communication, it, it shuts down. It's like, this is one of the, the, the pillars of things. But there was another one that

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  came up was, I had a, a friend who was at the Seoul conference two years ago, and they were showing James Fox's movie. And I think, I haven't seen the movie, but I think they talked about the, the King, the Kingman crash.

• 1:51:26Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  So this girl that I, I have contact with was sitting right near one of the main people, I don't want to say who it is, but one of the main people. And as that came up, he said, that's not right. That's not right. That was that crash. That's the one they walked away from. And I said to her, he said that? And she said, that's what he said. And then I remember Walker saying, we're talking about MJ 12. Oh, the, the dead bodies. He said, how do you know they're dead? You assume too many things and they're all wrong. How do you know they didn't get up and walk away? And now we've got this story that they got up and walked away and they left the craft, totally intact. And then when they looked inside, there was no beings. They just left us a craft, totally intact, flyable, all this sort of stuff. And Walker had said that 30 years ago. How do you know they didn't walk, get up and walk away?

• 1:52:08Jesse Michels?

  Who's this woman who said that about the Kingman?

• 1:52:10Speaker 02

  I don't know if-

• 1:52:10Jesse Michels?

  But she had a good source? Do you know she had a-

• 1:52:12Speaker 02

  She was sitting beside him. And when the interview was, when the movie was going on, this guy was saying, that's not right.

• 1:52:17Jesse Michels?

  Who said this?

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  I want to say, I don't know. It's one of the main people. It's the, one of the main people at Seoul. And she, I just couldn't believe, he said that? It's like, and I don't know if that's true, but-

• 1:52:27Jesse Michels?

  What do you want to say?

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  Well, I, she told me the story. I don't know if she wants to expose this guy, what, what he was saying, because she said, she just told me what he was saying, because she was sitting beside him. And I'm thinking, he said that? It's like, but it was this idea, we even got the idea that there's one craft where they walked away from it. They just, they just left it and walked away. And, and gifted it to us. That's where Tim Taylor talks about the gifting field, that they're gifting this stuff. And that's what he asked Bob Bigelow, do you think there's other crashes in other countries? And he said, yeah, I think there's, I think there's been a crash in Russia. I think there's been a crash in China. I think there's been one in South America. I think they're, they're seeding them. They're seeding them around the world. And that's a gifting idea that everybody seems to have adopted this idea. That's the thing, it doesn't come at 10,000 light years, and then suddenly crash.

• 1:53:10Jesse Michels?

  Well, I also, you know, just sticking with Walker for a second. Walker was chairman of the Institute for Defense Analysis, the IDA, and Malmgren was a part of the IDA early on as well. And I had the privilege of interviewing Malmgren.

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a lot. There was the, the, the tape with, um, um, Bobby Reen, Bobby Reenman. When he got asked this question, so that was at the IDA, he was, they were in a meeting at the IDA as well. And you have all these, if you look at the board, they had Joint Chiefs of Staff people on there, the head of the NSA, the, some guy he'd been on for like 30 years or something, sat right beside Walker at the, at the board and, and stuff like that. It was just high, high level people working on, then they were working on the Vietnam War and-

• 1:53:50Jesse Michels?

  Missile Defense.

• 1:53:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, all that kind of stuff. But these, these were elite people. They were grabbing them and-

• 1:53:56Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe Malmgren's testimony?

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:53:59Jesse Michels?

  And is it because of, you know, his background, you know?

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that he doesn't, yeah, he doesn't seem to have any, you know, vested interest in, in, in making it up. He may have some stories that he has to change based upon, you know, covering for some classified thing or whatever. But it is extremely interesting story, especially I hear he's like, same as Bob McGuire.

• 1:54:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  When I heard Bob McGuire, so many IDAs, I said, can I interview you? But he didn't really have any, he was just doing mathematics. He wasn't, you know, a major guy there. But that's the thing is, when, when, when I hear IDA, I know this is an ordinary guy.

• 1:54:32Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:54:32Speaker 02

  You know, they don't just haul you in. Same as, as SAIC.

• 1:54:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  If you're suddenly on the board there, you know, this guy's, this guy's got some, some, something behind him that they want. And, and he's got lots of connections and-

• 1:54:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  So it's, it's interesting to watch these guys. But that was my original thing. When the thing was flying away the second night, I said, I'm going to find out what's going on here. And then I went from the Canadian government to Eric Walker, because that, that led to Eric Walker. And then Eric Walker was going to put his papers at Penn, at the Truman Library. So I went to the Truman Library and go, oh, President's got to know. He's the most powerful guy in the world. He's got to know what's going on. So that's when I, I couldn't find much of Walker. I was looking for his files because he ran, he was assistant on weapons in 1950. That's when this crash took place. So that's how it started. So they found out that, that Steinman said, I was, I was invited to a crash briefing at Ray Patterson Air Force Base. And I couldn't go. I was busy. He was working on the D line in Canada or something like that, these engineers. I couldn't go.

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  And then he kept pushing, Simon was pushing, well, who had? Who had? And then Stein- Uh, Stan Freeman had an interview with someone. He said, well, who, who, who's there? Who's there? And he said, Ben, Ben of our Bush and Von Newman and stuff. And he said, well, these guys are all dead. There might be some guy still alive. This is 1983. And this, we do have the tape of this conversation. He said, well, yeah, there was this guy. He was real arrogant. He was, he was from Pennsylvania, had a company like me, and he thought he knew everything. He went to all the meetings. So it was Simon who did all the work and got all the names and came out and he phoned him. He says, Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah, that's the guy. That's the guy. And that's when he phones Walker and he says, I've got this document uh, before me about uh, or no, I've got, I've been received from Dr. Robert Sarbacher that you were at a briefing uh, dealing

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  with the recovery of a flying saucer and bodies at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in 1950.

• 1:56:18Jesse Michels?

  Did he have the document?

• 1:56:20Speaker 02

  Well, he had that. No, he had the uh, MJ 12 document, but he said Sarbacher told me this.

• 1:56:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  So uh, Walker wouldn't know who.

• 1:56:26Jesse Michels?

  Is Walker in the MJ 12 docs?

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:56:29Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:56:29Jesse Michels?

  So he said Sarbacher.

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  Sarbacher said you had been at a briefing.

• 1:56:33Jesse Michels?

  So he said, he basically just said Sarbacher said you had been at a briefing.

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  Briefing at Wright Patterson.

• 1:56:36Jesse Michels?

  And then what did Eric Walker say?

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  Said I was there. So what? And then Simon went crazy. What do you mean? This is, this is an important story. And he said, well, calm down, calm down. He's like, and he's, he's, he's just said, yeah, I was there. And uh, he basically admits, he said, I've known of them for 40 years, which convinced me that this is the real deal. Cause this is 1987. He does the interview. I've known of them, MJ 12 for 40 years. Leave it alone. There's nothing you can do about it. And that's when he started this whole thing. Uh, unless you have the mind of Einstein, you're not, you're not going to make any progress.

• 1:57:04Jesse Michels?

  Chasing your tail. Yeah.

• 1:57:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's, this is whole idea that I, I believe now that that may be what the cover ups about.

• 1:57:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:09Speaker 02

  Is that they have bodies and crafts, but Obama and all these people are telling the truth that we don't know anything beyond that. We, yeah, this story's real. There are real photos. There are real uh, bodies and crafts, but we don't have the answers. And that's what they're trying to hide is that the, the, the phenomena about the, how you propel the craft, how you control it, all this kind of stuff, the mind stuff that they're,

• 1:57:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:29Speaker 02

  that they're trying to control. And that's the cover up story that you can't have the president come out and say, and I think Trump now has made the release. So I think he's in big trouble because what happens is what Eric Walker said to us is, you're just curious. Admit it. You're just curious. Why should we change the rules and regulations to satisfy your curiosity? And he was hundred percent right. 99.9% of people just want to hear a good story. They just want to know. And so what you're going to have is whatever Trump says, like, he's supposed to have this speech, July the 8th, the anniversary of Roswell. He's going to make this speech and he's going to say, yeah, UFOs exist, but I don't really believe it. I'd a lot of people like this kind of stuff. I met these Navy guys. They're really nice guys. He's going to make that kind of speech. Uh, but I, I really don't know. And

• 1:58:12Jesse Michels?

  You think Trump will make a speech?

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  I, after I heard Laura Bush, I would say, I'm going 50 50. This is going to be a speech. Well, cause he's in a box now. He's in a box. He's gonna, he's, people don't realize, like Semi Van points out, this is a P. This is a presidential emergency action document. This is how it started, which means it's an executive program. The president is running the cover up. So once Trump got caught off guard, he just said, oh, you shouldn't have talked about that. It's classified. Now suddenly everybody realizes like Trump knows, Trump's uh, uh, now going to face the one million and one questions, which Walker was trying to do is back you off. We haven't, we're not going to answer one million questions because you're just curious. You're going to say, oh, there's bodies and crafts. Then somebody's going to say, okay, where are they from?

• 1:58:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  Okay. Now, you know, why are they here? Well, how was this ship made of? And then the questions will never end. And the president can't be answering all those questions because they don't know. They may know a little bit about the metal and a little bit about this, but what you're doing, I, I said, the, the night that Trump announced, they must've had a party beyond reproach in the, in the Kremlin with a vodka flowing like, oh my God, you're going to release this stuff. And this, and they sit there. It's like a game of cards. It's a game of poker. If you, they want you, everybody wants to send me to put their cards on the table. Nobody wants to put their cards on the table because you may put your cards on the table and the Russians have the parts, the cards that you're missing.

• 1:59:28Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of past presidents who had some exposure to this stuff, Nixon, uh, is a really interesting kind of apocryphal story uh, that is told by Jackie Gleason's ex-wife, Beverly McKittrick.

• 1:59:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:41Jesse Michels?

  Uh, do you want to tell this story? And I want to also just get your take on whether you think this actually happened? Cause it's one of the most remarkable stories. Joe Rogan always brings it up and says, I love this story. It's one of my favorite stories. Cause

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:53Jesse Michels?

  it ends with Jackie Gleason being so obsessed with UFOs that he ends up with a UFO shaped house in upstate New York.

• 2:00:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:00Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 2:00:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I actually arranged that interview with his, his wife. David, David Rudiak was the guy that found her. Uh, we were looking for her to do the story and she was selling the silverware. She was online. She was selling the silver. So we, we, we got a guy out of Ohio who's actually died now. He went and did the interview and she told the interview, uh, she was going to write a book, which really got Jackie upset. Then she'd gone to the National Enquirer. They had done a story and he was really upset that she had made this public. So she told us the story that, yeah, he, he's either fooling around with women or he, this actually happened because he was pretty shaken up when he came home. He was, he was really rattled when he came home, which is almost the same sort of story as Semi Van. When you actually get the truth, he's, it, it just blows them away. You think he'll handle it

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  and, and he doesn't handle it. So I looked at it because I, I was at the National Archives where the Nixon stuff was, and I tried to track down everything that I could find there. And what I did find is it would make sense because when uh, Nixon was there, I can't remember how many times he went to the, they called the Southern White House in Key Biscayne, Florida. They would land at Holloman and then they would take Marine One, the helicopter from Holloman to, so he would land at Holloman like in his presidency, 200 times. He, he would have known the base.

• 2:01:13Jesse Michels?

  Where is Holloman?

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  It's, it's just near, it's, it's South Florida. It's near Key, Key Biscayne. So they would just fly to Key Biscayne and that's where the house was. So, and, and Nixon, we had heard these stories, like they said, oh, he couldn't get away from his security. So I checked it and sure enough, he got away from his security lots of times. He didn't want, he hated his security. And what he would do is get the cook to drive out and he would be in the backseat under a blanket and he would, and then we'd find him in a bar and the secret service would have to find out where he is and go drag him out of the bar and bring him back to the White House and stuff like that. So I knew that part of the story was right, that he could get a car. He could get, because that was the thing. The president can't get a car, but I could confirm, yeah, the president can get a car and that he knew Holloman backwards and forwards. And uh, this whole thing with Jackie Gleason, that he was obsessed with, with, with UFOs and that kind of stuff. And he was able to

• 2:01:59Jesse Michels?

  Uh, I thought it was Homestead Air Force Base.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, Homestead. Pardon me.

• 2:02:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was confused. It's Holloman's in New Mexico.

• 2:02:05Speaker 02

  Homestead. Yeah.

• 2:02:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. I was like, I was updating.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is close, but not, not there.

• 2:02:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he, and, and so, yeah, I, I believe that story is true. And there was a story that, that he had folders, he had a folder in his filing cabinet with the, with the alien dead bodies. And they would show these photographs. There was that story about Nixon. Nixon apparently was just fascinated with it.

• 2:02:25Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's interesting. We basically know that Watergate was an inside job and it was a, it was a setup to oust Nixon.

• 2:02:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:30Jesse Michels?

  Mark Felt is the deputy director of the FBI. He's deep throat and he's giving a tip to a guy who just came out of the naval spy ring, the Office of Naval Intelligence, Bob Woodward. And so this whole thing is just this excuse to get rid of Nixon. He wanted to, you know, basically uh, do a cut of the CIA by a third, you know, big force reduction.

• 2:02:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50Jesse Michels?

  And I think he was also interested in a lot of this kind of spookier tech.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:55Jesse Michels?

  And I think there's a section in Mark Felt's um, autobiography where he talks about Nixon having seen some pretty specialized covert technology. And so I wonder if that's what he was speaking about high level is, you know, what he saw at Homestead Air Force Base, what he might've shown Gleason there. Who knows?

• 2:03:11Speaker 02

  It could be. Well, because the thing, the thing that was a controversy around Bob was the, the fact that Bob got a letter from Nixon and said, thank you for your cooperation on the project we're working on. And he showed it to Linda Howe and Larry Bryant, I think, were in LA, had a big house in LA and Hollywood and showed him this letter. And then um, he started to deny he had this letter. And we actually asked him one, on one interview, D. And he said, well, no, I got a letter and he, he sent, president sends out a letter trying to recruit people. If you got anybody, and he, he kept talking about this letter and said, no, no. And so one time Linda said, we were at a conference, Linda says, come on, we're going for dinner with Bob. I'm going to, I'm going to get him to, I'm going to get him to talk. So we're going there and she's just giving it to him. Oh, I felt

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  sorry for Bob. And Bob was saying nothing. He had his head down. His wife had his head, her head down, wasn't coming or anything. She said, come on, Bob, you got to admit it. You showed me that letter. Nixon was involved. You didn't say anything. And then me and Angela got up, I laughed and said, I'll, I'll, I'll, Bob, I'll leave you to Linda. And I walked off and Linda didn't talk to me for like a year or two years. She thought it was mad at her. I said, no, I thought it was kind of funny that you were, you were grilling this guy. And I said, Linda will get it out of you. But Linda confronted him numerous times about this letter that he'd gotten a letter thanking him that the whole thing was approved. The same as the one with UFO cover up live was a couple of days before Nixon, before Reagan left office. And it was sort of like a present to the people as I'm leaving this documentary.

• 2:04:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, Nixon, I believe, was also head of the 5412 Commission under Eisenhower. And that was this continuity of government initiative, but also to give, do you kind of inter-agency coordination between all these intelligence agencies and probably do some pretty spooky covert stuff and give the president plausible deniability on it. And then it probably turned into its own runaway sort of thing. Some people think the majestic 12 have to do with those sorts of programs.

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  They do. Oh, let me tell you, tell you my version of the story. So John Alexander was doing an interview. I've got in one of my books, I list all the MJ12 stuff. I mean, there's no doubt, there's 20 high level people talked about MJ12. But John talked about it in an interview. And he said, yeah, there was, but it didn't have anything to do with UFOs. And he said, well, it had to do with continuity of government. And, and the guy that showed him, told him that MJ12 was real, said, you look at the people on the list, and it should tell you what's going on. So I had that. And then Paul Heller tells the story. So Paul Heller tells the story. And I'm sitting right beside him, we're in Branford, Ontario. And he goes around, he said, who, who in the government knows? And he goes, yeah, I don't know. Because

• 2:05:45Speaker 02

  Paul Heller really didn't know much. So he said, head of the Privy Council, which is pretty high, it's a guy under the Prime Minister, head of the Privy Council, and he's, I really don't know. And then goes around and comes around, second round of questions. And then he says, well, your first question, he says, I do know somebody who knows. And he tells this story, he says, I got a phone call from this Air Force guy. And he said, the head of emergency management, which is the Canadian version, is about to go off the cliff. He's got, he's got Lou Gehrig's disease, LAS. And he's about to go, no, he's, he's dying, and he's got something he's got to get off his chest. And he's decided you're the guy he wants to tell. So Paul says, yeah, okay, I'll phone the guy. And he doesn't phone the guy. And then this guy phones him back. That's when he says, Paul, the guy's about to go off the cliff. You better talk to him. So he phones the guy up, and the guy says, I

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  just wanted to get something off my chest before I die. It's real. It's all real. He says, I got taken to the United States. And it would make sense if you're emergency management, even if you don't believe in aliens, you got an alien plan. In case there happens to be an alien invasion, emergency managers have got to have some plan. They've got a million plans for every lousy, you know, thing that could go wrong. And he said, I got taken to Washington to Langley. I signed my life away. And then they took me to Area 51, and I sat inside a craft. That's what he told Paul Heller. And I'm going, what? It's like, holy cow. And so then the guy ends up dying. And then the other piece of the evidence came. So I'm doing research on the Kecksburg crash, because Walker claimed he was there. So I'm doing research on that. And we're looking at the Blue Book files. And the Blue Book files

• 2:07:12Speaker 02

  talk about the fact that some metal had come down in Michigan, because this thing came all across Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, down into Pennsylvania, made this turn and crashed in, in Kecksburg. So there was some reports that there was some metal had come down in Michigan. And then there was another one that said, it was sent to project code, code word green grass. And I go, what that is? I look it up. It's Mount Weather. So where they could take the president when there's a nuclear attack. So they were sending this information on the Kecksburg crash to Mount Weather. And one of Greer's witnesses is Stephen Lovkin. He was this lawyer guy. And every, I interviewed him, I already thought he was, you know, maybe

• 2:07:55Speaker 02

  making it up and stuff like that. So I talked to him about being inside Mount Weather with, with Eisenhower. And he said Eisenhower would doodle UFO stuff and that sort of stuff. And that Eisenhower was, this is where UFOs were headquartered. This is where all the UFO stuff goes. Because it makes sense that if they dock the bombs, they're going to drop the bombs on the White House, all this sort of stuff. You need a place that is, that is contained. Mount Weather has communications to all the military, all the embassies, it's underground. And that's where they, I think they took, one time they took the president there, and then he took Vice President there, and this sort of stuff. And it's this underground city thing. And one of Greer's witnesses was saying, and it didn't make any sense until

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  you put these all together, that this is continuity of government, that this is part of the thing. If there's an alien invasion, we have to have this covered. And that the head of FEMA was there the day after, the first meeting that, that Johnson had when he came back to the White House after Kecksburg, was with the head of FEMA, with the emergency management. So you start looking at this thing, do they see it as a continuity of government thing? Or are they hiding it under a peat? So they're hiding it under something that doesn't really seem that it applies, like continuity of government, you say, it's got nothing to do with UFOs. It probably has everything to do with UFOs, they've got a whole division that's dealing with this. And that's the way I, I looked at that. There was a lot of stuff that seemed to show that Mount Weather did have this UFO connection.

• 2:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Where is Mount Weather?

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  It's about 60 miles out of Washington, I think, in Virginia, I think. But it's, it's this huge.

• 2:09:25Jesse Michels?

  One of these like Cheyenne Mountain complex type of, you know, contingency plan.

• 2:09:30Speaker 02

  Where you can put, put the new government, the new government gets signed, and they have a president, vice president, if they're all dead, they have people are nominated, and, and to keep the government going under this.

• 2:09:39Jesse Michels?

  Do you think this would be like, super deep meta conspiracy? But do you think that part of the modern narrative around disclosure is like, okay, so you're on the inside, you know, you have biologics, you have crashes, you have material, you have all these things, but you really don't know how a lot of it works. And you know, the size stuff is real, but maybe there's some vital core group that understands that to a better degree. But it's very disorganized, not clear how you can instrumentalize a lot of it. Maybe there's a point of exhaustion, and you go, how can we use this to our advantage? And then you start to think, okay, our democracy seems like it's sort of unraveling. And, you know, you can execute some sort of continuity of government contingency plan or something.

• 2:10:21Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, you blame it on alien invasion or anything like that. You know, these are things like, they talk about Project Blue Beam and things like that. And, you know, usually I think it's pretty mushy brained people who are convinced that everything in this world is, you know, based on one of these sort of crazy, crazy plans. But do you think that, given this insight, that there is this continuity, or this thread between continuity of government and, you know, people involved in the alien issue, do you think that that could be part of what's going on? You're sort of, in some ways, taking the president a step down. He's ceding his authority by saying that there's something else going on. And then if there is some false flag in this, in that area, then all of a sudden,

• 2:11:03Jesse Michels?

  it's like, oh, we got, the generals need to be in charge, or something like that.

• 2:11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I see that, although the way I saw it, because in a lot of the presidential libraries, when I went in there, I'd be finished the UFO stuff in about three hours, because there are no documents in UFO, in the libraries. And then I would read all these, what they call oral histories. So if you were the cook at the White House, they'd say, hey, Jesse, you're the cook at the White House. How did the president eat? Did he ever steal food in the middle of the night? All these goofy questions they ask me, you know. And I read all these oral histories of these guys. And I'd see how they made decisions. And I would go, I see why he made that decision. He figures a bad guy. And then I read his oral history and go, I can understand why he did that. You see the background. And to me, it was always this thing where it was more like six layers of paperwork that you got to do for everything. It's just bogged down where nothing gets done, where maybe even in the

• 2:11:51Speaker 02

  UFO thing, that's what they complain, that, you know, this is compartmentalized, and it's, you know, nothing's getting done. And the right hand doesn't know what the left hand's doing. That was more my thing of, of the, of the, of the government in terms of. And in this last administration, I can't see, because I got the whole briefing thing with, with Trump. And you'll see, I think I sent you my FOIAs. And one of the ones I asked was for all the.

• 2:12:14Jesse Michels?

  This is a Freedom of Information Act.

• 2:12:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, request. So what happens is, five years after the president is out, you can file for any documents you want. So at one second after midnight on January 20, I filed 47 FOIAs all at one time. And I want to be at the front of the line, because it's first come, first served. And there was a big group out of Washington, went after me one time with the, with the Clintons and said, why is all this UFO stuff coming out? Like, what? We want Hillary Clinton's email, or no, not email, phone records. And this is a waste of money and stuff like this. And I wrote them, I said, first come, first served. That's how FOIA works. Get lost, go to hell, stand in line, we're like the rest of us. And, and that's the thing. So I put it in. And one of the requests I made was all documents that

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  on rans privis, on UFOs for briefing of the president. And that is because I got called in. I got called in by Larry Fischella, who's not well known in the UFO community, pretty powerful, very rich guy, sort of works behind the scenes, helps people out and stuff like that. And he's the guy that sort of hinted to me who Jim Semivan was. And then 2016, I brought Jim Semivan's name out. But anyway, he, he called me up and he said, after Trump won 2016, he said, I need to, I need to help, we're doing a briefing for Rance Previs. And I said, for what? UFOs? He said, where are the crafts and bodies? I said, I have no idea where the crafts and bodies. What are you doing a Trump, Trump briefing for? And he said, well, you're not gonna tell them. I said, well, who's they?

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  And he said, well, CIA and stuff. He points all these people, he points the NSA and the CIA. And he can, as he's shown, he can fire hundreds of thousands of people. He doesn't, he can go as deep as he wants and wipe out everybody. And, and I said, well, you know, if, if they don't tell him, if he hires all these people as his aides, and then they don't tell him what's going on, I mean, whose fault is that? He said, yeah, that makes sense. And that, that ended the conversation. But I see, I went for Rance Previs, and I can, it's hundreds of pages of stuff on briefing for the President of the United States. So it'll be all these people that were gathered and all the information they gave as to what we should tell,

• 2:14:18Speaker 02

  Donald Trump, whether they block it or not. Cause you know, they play the games with the FOIs where, you know, you, this is too broad. Even my UFO, I have to redo it. Your UFO, it's too broad and take too many categories and too expansive and all this sort of stuff. And we're not gonna file it unless you specify exactly which files you want and stuff like that. So they, they played these little games, but it's a, it's a world where FOIs don't really get anything. You, you file for them, but behind the scenes, the people that, that you talk to, you can get a lot of insight as to, I think what's going on. I think the cover up to me is, is clearly the fact that it's, as, as James Akatski said,

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  he said, it is, is, is, is very complex. It is very, very complex. And the reference was, it is the equivalent of going from rocks, rocks and sticks to semiconductors or something like that. That's how, that's how far advanced this stuff is.

• 2:15:16Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of how complex and weird this is, there's a NASA mission controller named Tim Taylor, who seems to pop up in all of these experiencers' lives. People like Chris Bledsoe, who obviously saw this figure he calls the lady, or maybe the goddess Hathor. You know, he says that maybe she's also the Virgin Mary, goes by many names, and was given all these sort of prophecies. Obviously, you know, he experiences a lot of UFO stuff as well.

• 2:15:41Speaker 13

  This is the message she told me, that she had many names throughout history and that God is God. And we don't know what we think we know. And we need to sit back and reanalyze and, you know, be good children and, or we're going off the cliff.

• 2:16:00Jesse Michels?

  Whitley Strieber, you know, Tim Taylor also is in contact with him. Charles Hall, who is at Area 51, claimed to live with tall, white, alien beings for years. So I find him fascinating because he's at the intersection of like, this guy has worked on, you know, missions at NASA, Cape Kennedy, since the eighties. He worked on the Challenger mission and is this very credentialed guy. But then he's also popping up in these experiencers' lives and claiming all sorts of really out there things, like saying that there's a hierarchy of being involving, you know, angels and, you know, alien. He says he works for an angel. He says that they're alien-human hybrids. He's, you know, he said, then they, they exist above, you know, intel.

• 2:16:45Jesse Michels?

  He says that he is sort of a time traveler and is a part of something called the Adjustment Bureau, involved in sort of changing timelines. And then the crazy thing that no one else will find crazy, but I'm obsessed with Townsend Brown, this mid-century inventor who, you know, really worked on gravity and anti-gravity, but gravity and time are connected. And so he really was interested in time travel himself, is, Tim Taylor and Townsend Brown's daughter were working on a book together. And Tim Taylor also told Chris Bledsoe's son that he was part of a secret time travel group out of Nassau in the Bahamas. And I find that so fascinating because I know a lot about Townsend Brown, and he was obsessed with time travel.

• 2:17:27Jesse Michels?

  And he spent a lot of time in Nassau, on the Bahamas, with some really spooky, interesting people, like William Stevenson, for example, who's a Canadian, who was Churchill's super spy, you know, and helped form the CIA. So what do you know about this Tim Taylor guy?

• 2:17:42Speaker 02

  Okay, I met him in 2013. And what happened is he's gone to a conference, and I have a business friend of mine from Winnipeg, who basically, like Chris Bledsoe, he doesn't go to the lecture, he just sits out in the hallway and talks to people. So my friend's talking, and he meets Tim Taylor. Finds out he's from Nassau, and they're going on a dig. And this is the Anderson dig. This is the Anderson case. And so he says, we're going on this dig. You want, you want to come along with us? So Tim says, yeah, sure. So he, for a couple of days, they hang out, and then they go to this dig. And Tim's getting this stuff, and I remember my friend said, Tim said, when some of the stuff came out, this is the real deal. And so he had that, and that's all I really knew about him, that they'd been at the dig.

• 2:18:28Speaker 02

  I didn't, I knew he was from Nassau, but I didn't really know anything about the guy. So I meet him at a, at, this guy I talked to had all these, these tape calls from the, the, you know, these, this alien calling on the phone. And so we're in, when this, he built a cabin, we're in the cabin, I'm there. My business friend is there, Chris Bledsoe's there. And Tim Taylor comes, only for a day. I don't think he came in the morning, I think he left in the evening. And according to Chris, he only came to meet Chris to get Chris's information, because he was gonna go to Chris's place. He wanted to meet Chris, he wasn't interested in the rest of us. And if I'd known who he was, I would have paid a little more attention, I would have asked a few more questions.

• 2:19:08Speaker 02

  I didn't realize he was this like, super black ops, whatever, all the tickets and stuff like that. So I had two conversations. One was the download conversation. So I had the download, so we're talking downloads. And he talked to me about the invention. He gets the invention, resells this company for whatever, a hundred million, 88 million on whatever. And he's telling about the, the day he got the invention. And, and Pasolko talks about it in the, in the, in her book, about where they go to the Pentagon, and the one sir general says, who came up with this idea? And they all pointed to him. And he just came in his head in the morning. He said, Grant, the last thing I remember, the night before I got that idea in my head, I woke up and there was a hooded figure standing at the end of the bed. And I said, really? Could you see its face? He said, I couldn't see its face. I said, you go, you go to LA?

• 2:19:53Speaker 02

  Cause he works with cancer kids. And he's all medical stuff. So he's in operating rooms and looking at the equipment that they're using for cancer. And he goes to LA and to Miami. So I said, you're in LA all the time. Why, why don't you get a regression with Yvonne Smith and find out who the being was? And he said, yeah, I might do that. And so that was the one conversation I had. And the other one we had was, this is the one that ties into all of the stuff you're interested in. So he shows me this, his phone. And that's what Tim Taylor does, he doesn't tell you anything. He just makes, almost like read the breadcrumbs. Here's the breadcrumbs, figure it out. So he shows me this photograph, and it's a painting. And there's these two guys, and they're flying through space. And I've given you the photograph that I took when I went to the building.

• 2:20:37Speaker 02

  So they're flying through space, and it looks like they've got pajamas on. It's really weird. And there's no name of the artist on it or anything like that. And they're flying through space, one looks older than the other. And then he says, what do you think of this? I go, I don't know, two guys flying through space, I don't know. And then he shows me this one of these, the moons, it's one of these three, four, three paintings, where the eclipse happens in the third painting. And he shows me another photograph, all these balls going down a, down a tunnel, and they're getting smaller or whatever. And what do you think of this? Tim, I don't know, I have no idea. I don't, why are you showing me these photographs? And then he shows me the underside of the building, these outer space photographs on the other side of the building. And he says, I don't know. And then he shows me this car. This is where it starts to tie together. He shows me this car on the top of the parcade. And it's like a 56 or 57 Chevy.

• 2:21:21Speaker 02

  And he's, he's got just like a close up of the backseat, and there's just a postcard there. He says, you know what that is? I said, what? He said, a postcard. You know what it says? I says, no, what does it say? And then some guy, I wish I could travel through time and space to be with you. I said, that's what it says? And he says, yeah. And I said, he says, what do you think? I said, I still don't know, I have no idea what you're talking about here. He said, you know where this is? I said, no, I don't know. He said, see, who's, it's the old used aircraft building. And they had turned it into a, a, a, a office complex. And I said, I still don't know what you're talking about. And then he says, and then he says, oh, I don't remember, but he said, this is where the jump room was, or this is the jump, this is the story of the jump room. And I go, jump room? Can I see those photographs again? And he shows me the photographs.

• 2:22:05Speaker 02

  And he showed the first one, these two guys flying through space. And he says, you know what that is? And I says, no. He says, it's right outside the elevator. I said, really? Because the story is, the CIA story is, they go up to the fifth floor, and then on the elevator, and then it goes across, and then they, they, they jump to Mars. And Obama's been there. And I always thought it was a garbage story. You know, Andy Basyago, who I actually had dinner with, and he's a really smart guy. He's a really impressive guy when you talk to him. And so I, I phoned up Andy, and I said, Andy, are you in the front building? Or are you in the back building where you're doing this jump thing? He said, I don't remember, he was a little kid, I don't remember. And, uh, because this is in the front building. And so then he's, uh, he has this, he's showing me this thing. And then I says, well, when I go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna photograph this.

• 2:22:50Speaker 02

  Cause I, and it only occurred to me two years later. I'm thinking to myself, What was Tim Taylor doing?

• 2:22:57Speaker 00

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• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  There. If this is a stupid story, and this guy, because then I had learned who he was. If he's there, maybe this story's true. Like, why would he go to this building to check this story out? So I went there and I photographed it all. And he said, "Watch out for the guard." And there was this guard, and it ties into the whole portal thing. So I sort of changed from the...

• 2:23:43Jesse Michels?

  So Tim Taylor went to investigate the Andrew Basiego story. Okay. And Basiego is this guy who's done lectures on the fact that he's time traveled.

• 2:23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:55Jesse Michels?

  It's a various place.

• 2:23:56Speaker 02

  All over the place. And everybody thought it was a crazy case, but I thought it was a crazy case, too. And then I met Basiego, and he didn't seem that crazy. And he actually impressed me quite a bit. And the other thing was that, why would Tim Taylor go there? I mean, why? He lives in, I think he lives in Huntsville. And then the other story with Tim was kind of funny, because then he left. And they phoned me a couple of weeks later. He was in a restaurant in Huntsville. And it was really bad. I really couldn't figure what he was talking about. He was like a lot of noise and stuff. I just remember the one part, and it sort of makes everybody feel better, because you always feel like Rodney Dangerfield, "I don't get any respect here." And he said, "My wife, my daughter was talking to me the other day. She says, 'Dad, you gotta quit doing this stuff. This is crazy. Like, what are you doing this crazy stuff for?'"

• 2:24:39Speaker 02

  And he said, "I just told her, I said, 'Remember where the Lexus comes from.'" And then he said, "She shut up." So I remember that. Even Tim Taylor, this high-level guy, has this family trying to stop doing UFOs.

• 2:24:50Jesse Michels?

  And is the implication there that it's because, because he created this?

• 2:24:53Speaker 02

  He's embarrassing. You're embarrassing.

• 2:24:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, that for sure. But then he created Vivek's Biotechnologies based on this download.

• 2:24:59Speaker 02

  But she wouldn't know how they, all the pieces of that.

• 2:25:02Jesse Michels?

  And that's like, you know, I think he sold that for like 88 million bucks or something. So he's implying that like his interest in the phenomena is what made him money there. He's not implying that he makes money by popping up into experiencers' lives. Like, that's his job, is he? That's more of like a fun thing outside of his NASA credentials.

• 2:25:20Speaker 02

  I believe that's the secret.

• 2:25:21Jesse Michels?

  You think he is working on...

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  It's not nuts and bolts the way people think it is. It's this weird...

• 2:25:24Jesse Michels?

  It's this weird phenomenon.

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  Because that's what the biggest...

• 2:25:26Jesse Michels?

  Do you think his work at the Aerospace Corporation has anything to do with UFOs?

• 2:25:30Speaker 02

  Well, I think they're all working on it. I mean, he, you know, he'd be working on those specific aspects that lead down that road, wherever he is.

• 2:25:38Jesse Michels?

  Because that's another federally funded research and development center, just like IDA that we mentioned prior.

• 2:25:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he, that's the thing. That's, I believe, because that's what I came to, because I spent a lot of time with Ron Pendolphy. And the main film I got, he always calls me a crook and a thief, because I got this video that he put up on the internet. And I figured like, why would I not take this off the internet? And it was posted by his wife. And it's them going through the Panama Canal. And they're sitting there, and it's Ron, Ron's wife, Aleah. Cashmere's sitting on Ron's lap. This guy by the name of John Silasen is sitting right beside John, beside Pendolphy. And Dan Smith is there, and the photographer is there, and this thing's going on. And they're just talking, and there's a lot of noise in the cafeteria. So his wife says to him, "So Footman," because they always use these code names. Like, he's the footman, she's the princess. He takes care of her, she's the princess, whatever. So he's, "Footman, what do you say?"

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  And he says, quote, "People have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world. There's been a breakthrough. The next time John," and he looks over at this John guy, "next time John goes to the desert, a number of us here will go into the next world and come back again." And I went, "Whoa." I forgot this film. And Maccabee got a hold of the film, and he went to Ron. He said, "Did you see Grant posted this video? And he said, 'That guy's a crook, that guy's a thief and stuff.'" It's like the most important video I've ever seen, because that was the whole deal. So then I'm talking to this guy by the name of Doug Alt. And he was very good friends with both of them. And then there was all this thing about the portal started, that they had the portal, and she'd come out of this portal and stuff. They kept talking portals. So I said to Doug, I said, "I'm getting tired of this.

• 2:27:12Speaker 02

  I mean, I've been chasing Pendolphy for 25 years, and I still say the biggest question you follow is not what are UFOs, it's what the hell is Ron Pendolphy doing? And what's he up to?" And I said, "I'm just tired of this. I'm going to take off. Do you think I should..." I was interested in the portal story, that's all I'm interested in. "Do you think I should take off, or should I stay around?" And then he pauses, he goes, "Yeah, I should probably stick around." And then about two, three years later, I'm talking, we talk a lot of hockey. So we're talking hockey. And he says, "Remember that question you asked me a couple of years ago?" And I said, "Yeah." "It's real."

• 2:27:41Jesse Michels?

  Who said that?

• 2:27:42Speaker 02

  Doug Alt. He said, "It's real."

• 2:27:44Jesse Michels?

  Who is Doug Alt?

• 2:27:45Speaker 02

  He's a friend, he's a painter. So Aleah's a painter, and he's a realistic painter, like he'll paint...

• 2:27:51Jesse Michels?

  And what's his connection with all this stuff?

• 2:27:53Speaker 02

  I introduce all these people. So what I do is I introduce all these people to Ron Pendolphy, and then they all talk to him. And then I say, "What's Ron saying?" So I got all these sources around Ron, who were telling, I never talked to Ron. I've talked to him a few times, but I don't talk to him. I just listen to these people all around him. "What's Ron saying? What'd he say about this? What'd he say about that?"

• 2:28:08Jesse Michels?

  Tell me about Ron himself, because he pops up in UFO world a lot. He's sort of seems to be debunking people, like calls people loons and crooks and...

• 2:28:17Speaker 02

  Well, he called, Doug was doing a Broadway play, off-Broadway play. And there was a song about Ron, it was called "The Offiscation." That Ron had told him, "I'm here to offiscate."

• 2:28:29Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:28:30Speaker 02

  And yet he's like disclosing, but he's not disclosing. And that's this method that they use, that you can't tell her he's telling the truth or not. It starts in 91. So he's talking to his friend Dan Smith. And Dan Smith said, he's had 1,000 conversations with Ron about UFOs. And Ron is this very high-level guy, he's been at CIA since 84. He's rumored to brief the presidents on Chinese tech and stuff like this. And so he meets Dan Smith.

• 2:29:00Speaker 02

  Dan Smith's trying to find out about crop circles. So he gets the phone number, they give him the phone number for Ron. This guy probably knows. So he phones up, and he starts talking. And so he meets, and he says, "I'm going to Los Alamos this week. I'm going to talk, I'm talking to live alien." So Dan Smith, he's a multimillionaire. He says, "Okay, fine." And he posts it. He says, "Ron Pendolphy from the CIA is going to talk to aliens at Los Alamos." So Ron contacts, he says, "The next time you post, do not put my name and CIA in the same sentence." He didn't seem concerned about the live alien thing. So, and Dan Smith phones Los Alamos. And he says, "I want to know about Ron Pendolphy, is he coming there?" And he said, "Hang on, and who comes on the line with John Alexander?"

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  And he said, "Yeah, he's coming here." And so that's how it started, with this thing going to the live alien. So he tells all these stories, and then Ron gets mad at me, and he says, "Dan Smith's crazy, he's psychotic, and you just repeat all the stuff he says is not true, but he's feeding him stuff. He's feeding him all these, these things about the portal and stuff like that. And actuators, where this John Silasen guy, there's these actuators that they pull out of the portals, and they've actually got this technology. And at one point, they were actually going to tell me, I was talking to one of Ron's assistants, because I work on portals as well at Mount Shasta. I've got these four main cases, where I talk to people who were in the portal, they went into the portal."

• 2:30:18Jesse Michels?

  And is the portal like, you go into another time? You go into another...

• 2:30:22Speaker 02

  They could go right, they could step from here onto another planet. You just take one step, and you're on another planet.

• 2:30:26Jesse Michels?

  Another planet?

• 2:30:27Speaker 02

  Planet. Or you can go into the portal in Mount Shasta, where the alien comes. The alien, their theory is the alien lures the vibration. People do oming, meditating, all sorts, they raise their vibration, and then this being comes. So in 2014, they opened one. 2015, I interviewed almost everybody that was in the portal. "What did you see?" He was this 10-foot-tall guy, and he had boots on, he had this thing on his chest, and these sparks are coming out of this thing. And what do you see? This 10-foot-tall guy, and these two other beings, and these people hiding behind trees, and they had, it looked like little iPads, and they believed they were the engineers that were keeping the...

• 2:31:00Jesse Michels?

  And you think Pendolphy is like in charge of these sort of, he's looking into these portals?

• 2:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that he's, that he's in the UFO technology, that he's protecting it, but he's also making these sort of indirect disclosures about this, this whole thing.

• 2:31:15Jesse Michels?

  And in case anybody thinks we're sort of crazy here, I believe he also was in charge of the Jasons, right?

• 2:31:23Speaker 02

  He provided material for the Jasons. So the Jasons came out of IDA. There's one, I think it was MITRE, I think his wife used to work for the MITRE Corporation or whatever.

• 2:31:30Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:31:30Speaker 02

  There's connections there. But there's a document that was found about gravitational waves, where he was finding the speakers. There's, it shows Ron Pendolphy's providing the briefers.

• 2:31:40Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think he's so interested in gravitational waves? Maybe because of...

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  Well, he's interested in everything. He's interested in everything. He's, you know, they're big ecologists and stuff like that, and he's...

• 2:31:50Jesse Michels?

  So he was not on the Jasons?

• 2:31:51Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 2:31:52Jesse Michels?

  Because somebody was saying, somebody said he set the agenda for the Jasons.

• 2:31:55Speaker 02

  Well, he was providing the speakers, or he was providing, I think it was the speakers or...

• 2:31:58Jesse Michels?

  Just that one time?

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  The one time, it was caught on paper. So you never almost catch him on paper. Like, you can do FOIs on him, he won't show up on FOIs. And he disappears into the, one of these guys where he's totally protected as to who he is, what he does. We were trying to find out, I couldn't even find out what agency he worked for. It was like, is he working for CIA still? Is he working for, because he apparently worked for Director of National Intelligence. And then he was at the White House, and then Dan Smith says, "He's taking care of hamsters. They do this bizarre stuff."

• 2:32:28Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there are secret societies that exist? You know, you have the JFK speech, but where are the secret societies?

• 2:32:33Speaker 14

  And we are, as a people, inherently and historically. Opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths and to secret proceedings.

• 2:32:43Jesse Michels?

  They exist at a level kind of more fundamental than intelligence agencies. And these groups have to do with the UFO secrets at all?

• 2:32:52Speaker 02

  Well, they would have all sorts. I would say the secret societies are the guys with the money. So one of the big things in in Washington was the Cosmos Club. That the people who went to the Cosmos Club were the insiders, that they would have these meetings. And I think it's all like you do business. So whatever level you're talking to people at business, you're in making a deal. And if you're talking to a high level guy and you're a high level guy, they're talking about, they may have a UFO thing going, they may have something else going. And it's all about, you know, trying to do whatever they're doing and make money. And but I think it's mostly got to do with money and and power and and who you know. It's that's where the aviator came from. These guys that you have all these people trying to figure out stuff. And then these high level guys who had some engagement with UFOs suddenly find out what's going on. And and they realize these other people around and they start talking.

• 2:33:36Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any concrete examples of the connection between the Cosmos Club and UFOs?

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  Walker was Walker was one of the one of the people. That's one of the things we discovered. And then I would look at bios of all these high level guys and be Cosmos Club.

• 2:33:49Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:33:49Speaker 02

  Cosmos Club.

• 2:33:50Jesse Michels?

  Is that still around or?

• 2:33:51Speaker 02

  Yep, I think so. Yeah. So that's one of the things and it may not have anything to do with, but it just it just popped up all the time and.

• 2:33:58Jesse Michels?

  What about like families like, you know, the Rockefellers, like Lawrence Rockefeller was obsessed with UFOs. It tried to get Hillary Clinton into UFO disclosure, right?

• 2:34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and and I I I tried to get people to his files are still there. And I think it's at Princeton, but I'm not 100% sure. But his files are there and there's got to be a gold mine, even though his family may have destroyed some of the stuff because they had no use for him being in this. He was embarrassing to the family and stuff like that. And so and he had an interesting story I could tell about about there. When I I the one big thing I first got was I filed, McAfee had filed. There was a friend of Ron Pendolphy filed first, then McAfee filed. First guy got 200 pages, McAfee got 500 pages. So I filed for all the the what's called the Rockefeller Initiative now, where Rockefeller goes, he he's talking, Bud Hawkins told me the story. He's there Jacobs and him are at him and Mac are at Rockefeller's house.

• 2:34:53Speaker 02

  And Rockefeller is like a butler and he's taking bringing them breakfast and stuff like that. And they thought this is kind of weird. This billionaires, you know, feeding us breakfast and stuff. And he he said, I'm gonna I'm gonna get disclosure. And he said, what do you mean? I'm going to the president, I'm gonna tell him to disclose. And they said, well, he's not gonna do it. I'm going to the president and he's gonna disclose. And he said, oh, Mr. Rockefeller, I don't think that's how it works. I don't care. I'm gonna get disclosure. So they had this, they knew he was coming. And that's when Pendolphy gets involved. So they have to get a briefing because Gibbons, they realized there's gonna be this big meeting on UFOs. And they got to find out what's the government position, what do we say, all this stuff. So Gibbons calls in Mac, he calls in Ron Pendolphy to do the briefing. And this has been established that Ron was called to do the briefing.

• 2:35:35Speaker 02

  This is the idea that he'll brief executive people, the president, if something comes up as to what the actual fact is. Like Ron, there's even an email I have where Ron says, these senators and congressmen, they're they're always asking these questions. And they don't realize that it's it's not the material, it's the access to the material. And you can get in a lot of trouble. And I tell the senators that and they just let me carry the keys. So I call him the key, the guy with the keys. He has the keys to all the compartments. He knows exactly.

• 2:36:04Jesse Michels?

  Ron does.

• 2:36:04Speaker 02

  What's classified, what's not classified.

• 2:36:06Jesse Michels?

  So you think Ron Pendolphy exists at the top of the UFO pyramid from a government perspective? And isn't, didn't he do some metallurgy related to?

• 2:36:14Speaker 02

  Well, that's that's another story. The story was that his father gave him a piece that he was they were involved with the Glomar Explorer. And and so Ron had this piece and he did a paper when he was 16 years old. And it was one of the reasons why he got recruited, this metallurgist. Yeah, I think apparently he's not a physicist, he's a chemist. And he did this metallurgical analysis at 16 years old.

• 2:36:35Jesse Michels?

  A UFO piece?

• 2:36:36Speaker 02

  Well, it's a piece of something. Ron Ron will never tell you a straight story.

• 2:36:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:36:39Speaker 02

  I mean, he did.

• 2:36:40Jesse Michels?

  And and and for context, Glomar Explorer was this Hughes aircraft subsea explorer that a lot of people think maybe retrieved, you know, exotic technology at the seafloor.

• 2:36:53Speaker 02

  And then there's a story that his father had given him a piece and and then he was taken away. I don't know, there's the story is Ron Ron never really, but it definitely, there was a piece. He did analysis very young age and that had something to do with how he got involved with UFOs and stuff like that. And then then you get like, there's always these connections, like, for example, Kit Green. Kit Green was involved in Glomar Explorer, so was Eric Walker.

• 2:37:16Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:37:17Speaker 02

  And so when Kit Green saw Eric Walker's bio, he says to Jacques Vallée, have you seen this guy's bio? This guy is unbelievable. And they were looking at our book of what Walker had said, and this guy's claiming this and that. And he said, I'm gonna get a clearance. I'm gonna go talk to him. Because I talked to Bill Moore and Bill Moore says, I don't believe this Walker guy is as high as you say he is. But I got a friend, his name is BJ, he's gonna go in and talk to him. And BJ is the blue Jay, the Kit Green is the blue Jay. So Kit Green gets this clearance and he goes to to Walker at Penn State. And according to Jacques Vallée, the way the story is, they're sitting there and they talk about Glomar Explorer, CIA days, Glomar Explorer. And they both worked on it and stuff like that. And everything was going good and then Kit bring brings up UFOs.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  You made these statements about crash saucers and stuff like that. And he said, Walker just blew up and he started yelling at him. Even at the president, I don't have to tell you anything. What do you think? I don't have to tell you anything. You get a letter from the president, I'll check it to make sure it's from the president and then I'll talk to you. And you get out of my and he's and he's talking to a bunch of books in a corner to give the indication that he'd gone crazy and and that the room was tapped. And there was these, there's the room was tapped and they were listening in the books and and get out of my office and he kicked Kate Green out of the office.

• 2:38:27Jesse Michels?

  Wild.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  And so this is a story that Kit Green told and Jacques Vallée tells it in his diary.

• 2:38:31Jesse Michels?

  Kit Green has held a long CIA clearance.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  He said, I'll get the clearance. He got the clearance necessary to talk to him. And there was the one condition is, and this comes back to the thing about the president. And you're not the president, I don't have to tell you anything.

• 2:38:43Jesse Michels?

  And Jacques Vallée writes about this in Forbidden Science's diaries?

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:46Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. Well, what's interesting to me is you're saying that Ron Pendolphy is head of the CIA weird desk. And he sits at the top of the pyramid and he kind of knows where all the compartments are. But then you're simultaneously saying his predecessor, Kit Green, who also ran the CIA weird desk, didn't really have an understanding of the program.

• 2:39:06Speaker 02

  Well, the story I heard was that Kit Green basically had been read in on most of it. But he couldn't get read in on the the autopsy thing. And that he was fighting and and they had given him an offer to do it and then they would pull it back and all this guy. That's the story I was hearing back 20 years ago, that he couldn't get read into that program, that he knew sort of the other stuff. And but he he knows a lot. I think he was one of the people that briefed Semivan. Because he's the guy that told Semivan about Tom DeLonge. He said, this guy is a music guy and he's doing this sort of stuff. And then they went to Tom DeLonge, it was Semivan and Kate Green. They got Tom DeLonge in a hotel room. And they said, like, where'd you get this stuff from? Because they realized this is some of the stuff was was borderline classified material. It was in Tom Long's book.

• 2:39:50Speaker 02

  And for the apparently for two days, they talked to Tom DeLonge and then they realized, oh, he's nothing. And they realized the program, I they say they realized there's nothing classified. And so they dropped it. But then he becomes co-owner or whatever of to the stars with with Semivan.

• 2:40:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:07Speaker 02

  And Tom DeLonge, which indicates that they go along with the program. They realized he knows he's he knows all the guys, he knows McCaslin, he knows Rice and stuff. And what are you doing with this guy? And that's what happened with John Podesta. So when Podesta, when when Tom DeLonge goes to Podesta, Podesta says, well, call me back in a couple of months. I'm kind of busy right now. And what Podesta is doing is he's got to run the thing. Who's talking to this? Who's talking to this guy? What are we doing? Are we dropping something on this guy and stuff like that? And then they give him the clearance. So then Podesta phones phones Tom DeLonge and says, I'm ready. This is important, fly to Washington. And then he flies. So suddenly John Podesta, somebody's told him, you can work with this guy. This is what you can tell him.

• 2:40:48Speaker 02

  And they have this meeting where all these guys are at this meeting in in 2016 in January. And that you have the weird story where John Podesta, he always told the story when he was in Clinton White House, this joke about he would always leave. He's worked day and night at the White House, but when his X-Files, he went home, started Thursday and I just let me go home to watch the X-Files. And then in the in the meeting, I make the joke where the one of the people in there is Robert Weiss in the meeting. So Robert Weiss, after they have this meeting with John Podesta about disclosure, whatever they're doing, because Hillary was gonna disclose, that's clear. And after, a couple of days after, Robert Weiss writes a letter and says, is is we got any information, any follow up information? Because I guess it was, we're gonna follow up on this kind of stuff.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  And now you've got the Area 51 guy phoning to find out what's what what they know about Area 51. And before it was, he's asking John Podesta what's going on at Area 51. And John Podesta before was asking what's, he wanted to go to Area 51 and find out what's going on, talk to them. So you got this whole thing where Hillary was gonna disclose. And then what happened was the leak of the emails, the Podesta emails and it all, the three, I call them the three kings. Podesta, McKay and Robert Weiss, they get exposed. And suddenly, boom, they blow in their cover and they've never appeared since. They've just disappeared into nowhere. And then you have to bring in the B team. So then he brings in Lou Elizondo and that, I call them the B team, they bring them in. But what happened, now you even talked to Chris.

• 2:42:15Speaker 02

  So when Hillary lost the election, because they talked about the seven year plan, the same as Schumer. They talked about the seven year plan with the nine people under the president and we've got subpoena power. And we can force force all the material back from the contractors and stuff. That was all before 2016 Hillary was gonna do it. And Hillary, according to the Podesta notes, she had this all planned that she they were gonna promote this stuff. And John Podesta was actually saying, ask her about the aliens. One of the reporters, come on, ask her about the aliens. They he wanted this story out because they wanted Hillary to talk about she was gonna do the disclosure thing. And she was gonna go on Kimmel in November of 2015. And she went on there and he didn't ask her the UFO question. And then she wanted the Podesta thing, she was furious.

• 2:42:57Speaker 02

  She had practiced this five minute spiel, she had it all down, what she was gonna say.

• 2:43:01Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 2:43:01Speaker 02

  Didn't ask her the question.

• 2:43:02Jesse Michels?

  How do you know that? So Kimmel had it.

• 2:43:04Speaker 02

  It's in the it's in the Podesta emails.

• 2:43:06Jesse Michels?

  Holy shit.

• 2:43:07Speaker 02

  And then she goes in April.

• 2:43:08Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:43:09Speaker 02

  And and then he asked her the question. And that's when she says, I'm gonna get to the bottom of this. And he said, well, your husband tried to get to the bottom of it and he couldn't get anywhere. Well, I'm gonna do it again, she said.

• 2:43:21Speaker 15

  I'm gonna do it again. Yeah.

• 2:43:24Speaker 02

  This is all planned that she was gonna do disclosure. So when she didn't get it, Chris Blesser was feeding me all the material about what was going on. They were gonna drop this thing with Hillary Clinton. They had it all planned out and all this stuff was gonna be disclosure. And then Hillary lost the election. So I phoned up Chris the same day. I said, Chris, so what's going on? Is it dead? Is it? No, he said, green light, still going. It's even bigger than before. And I go, okay. And then it took them nine, 10 months for Tom DeLonge to get the next team of people. And then they made that October 11th appearance on To The Stars. And that's when To The Stars happened.

• 2:43:56Speaker 16

  Now, if there's a subject that could potentially change the world, how would one approach it? Especially if the subject contained earth-changing technology?

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  It was gonna happen before. It was all planned absolutely before. You even have the emails going to the Rockefeller thing. Hillary was really into this thing. They had the, there was two documents in the Rockefeller files. And I couldn't figure out what they were. One said, all the stuff going from Rockefeller to the science advisor, from science advisor to Rockefeller is going through the mail, the mailbox of Hillary Clinton. And we're like, why would Hillary Clinton be, why would we go through her office? And then the, the other one, I can't remember the second one. But this one, I figured out what it was, was the president is, as he told Rockefeller at the ranch, he told Rockefeller, it's like the story of the Tar Baby. You heard the Arkansas Tar Baby story? That's what it's like. You can't touch it.

• 2:44:51Speaker 02

  If you touch it, you get stuck to it. And then you try to fight and you get stuck again. And you kick on your foot and you get stuck. And he told Rockefeller, it's, I can't touch it. It's like the Rockefeller Tar Baby. And so.

• 2:45:00Jesse Michels?

  Who said this?

• 2:45:01Speaker 02

  Clinton to Rockefeller at the ranch. And so he, he.

• 2:45:06Jesse Michels?

  Hillary or Bill?

• 2:45:07Speaker 02

  Bill.

• 2:45:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:45:08Speaker 02

  Cause Hillary didn't come down. They did the briefing. Rockefeller wanted to get him away from the CIA at the ranch. Then he gave the briefing and Hillary, Hillary watched the briefing and it was Bill's birthday. Bill didn't come down to the briefing. He didn't because the president can't be involved. He can't, he can't touch the subject because then he gets stuck. And that's the problem I say Trump has right now. He's touched the Tar Baby and now he's stuck to the Tar Baby. And he's gonna answer, ask her a million and one questions about what's going on, all the conspiracy theories, all this sort of, he's just gonna be inundated. It's gonna be, stop, it's like the Epstein, stop, stop. Is there anything else we can talk about here except UFOs? He's gonna get frustrated with all the questions he's got. But so the reason they put it through her is that she knew what was going on between Rockefeller and the science advisor.

• 2:45:52Speaker 02

  And she'd go to Bill in the evening and say, this is what's going on. And then he'd tell her what to say. She wasn't part of the government, so she could, she could do this kind of stuff. They didn't want any paper trail leading to the president. And, and that's what I think goes on is that the presidents are told this plausible deniability thing, if you really need something, we'll read you in on it or the basic policy. Cause according to Semivan, the basic policy is that it's a program. And people say, well, good security clearances. Well, the president controls all security clearances. He's, all security clearances go through the executive office of the President of the United States. People don't realize he's in control of security clearance. He doesn't have a security clearance. He can fire anybody, pull your security clearance. He pulled, you know, Biden's.

• 2:46:33Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's why when you hear stuff like, I wanna get to the bottom of it and you're Trump, you should expect him to get to the bottom of it. Cause all this stuff rolls up, you know, eventually to the executive branch.

• 2:46:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think they just tell him, you're better to stay clear. Don't touch it. And if you need something, we'll, we'll tell you what's going on. It's being controlled by these people.

• 2:46:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, maybe there's a tide shift now because Trump is so volatile and hard to predict and you know.

• 2:46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think he got caught off guard. I don't think he even realized because that's what happened. The Fox News guy asked, asked him, well, you know, Obama said this or whatever.

• 2:47:05Jesse Michels?

  Well, then, but then he doubled down.

• 2:47:06Speaker 02

  And then he said, oh, it's classified material. And then the reporter said, so you're saying aliens are real? And they went, oh, no, no, no. And then he started to back off and he realized he'd said this, that it was classified. And that, so I say that it wasn't Obama that broke this, the classification. Cause he didn't say this is classified material. But Obama said, or Trump said, that's, aliens, that's classified, which means you're exposing a classified program. If, if there's a, somebody asks you about classified program, you're supposed to say, I can either confirm or deny, or say, no, you lie. You do not expose because the, even the existence of the program is exposing the program. If somebody realizes there is actually a program, then everybody knows where to go. And that's what happened to Jimmy Carter. When he was trying to get reelected, he mentioned the stealth.

• 2:47:48Speaker 02

  And that's one of the reasons why he was, he was just absolutely ridiculed because they had to move all the parts. And they had open satellites were suddenly going over Burbank. They knew where the, where the stealth was being built and stuff like that. And they were just furious at him because he'd made this reference to the stealth.

• 2:48:02Jesse Michels?

  Grant, you are clearly a wealth of anecdotes. I'm just so impressed at your knowledge over, over the last, you know, three, four decades on this topic. It's just really, really impressive. I, I want to, given how much you know, get to some discreet truths. Because I think in UFO world, often you end up in sort of everything is everything land, you know? And it's, it's, I think it's important to kind of concretize things. So you, do you believe you, we have crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  Uh, yes.

• 2:48:35Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe this sort of time travel portal thing as well? There are programs where people are going into jump rooms and going across time and space through.

• 2:48:47Speaker 02

  I, I would say nature, reality, if you go down, there's no time, there's no space. You get into that kind of stuff. That's where Jim Semivan says it's indigestible.

• 2:48:55Jesse Michels?

  But has this been turned into technology that is repeatedly usable in a predictable way? So I wanna go to.

• 2:49:01Speaker 02

  Metal, well, some like metal, nittinol, I think was something developed from the Roswell crash.

• 2:49:06Jesse Michels?

  But I'm talking about the portal stuff. So like.

• 2:49:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, this is where this taped from Ron, because he didn't know it was gonna be public. He had no idea that, that I would grab this off the internet and grab it. And he's definitely talking about portals. And when I talk to these people in the portals, that's definitely true. And then I hear the story.

• 2:49:23Jesse Michels?

  You think they can walk into a room and we can predictably, because Andrew Basiago, let's just get.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:49:28Jesse Michels?

  Clear.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:49:29Jesse Michels?

  He literally says, I went back to the Gettysburg Address. So like, do you think that there's a way to predictably send somebody to a specific moment in time? And the government knows that?

• 2:49:39Speaker 02

  I think there's a better chance of that than that we have some sort of ships that are flying to other planets. I, the nuts and bolts thing, I think is gonna fall apart. It's more.

• 2:49:49Jesse Michels?

  So you think we don't, we haven't made a lot of progress on the crafts we do have?

• 2:49:53Speaker 02

  If we got any technology, it's gonna be portal, time travel technology.

• 2:49:56Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And then we don't, we haven't made a lot of progress on the crafts we have.

• 2:50:00Speaker 02

  Well, that's according to Semivan, James Lukaskey, they, they may be lying. They may be not read in. But I, I look at, my father's, I tell the story. My, my father was World War II, he's Air Force, World War II. So he brought this bomb home from World War II, you know? And it, it was deactivated and whatever. And my kid, my son's got it now. And I watched the Ukrainians drop bombs on, on the Russians. And it's the same bomb. It's, and I'm going like, where's the high tech? I mean, you'd think we'd have this high tech. Why did you lose the Afghan war to a bunch of guys driving around on camels? I mean, the Somalia had the fourth weakest army in the world and the Americans had to pull out of there. And you start wondering, because all the technology, the, the, the F-47 coming now, it's still playing with wings and it's going faster.

• 2:50:44Speaker 02

  It's got more jamming technology and all that kind of stuff. I just don't see the technology. But when it comes to the, the, the, the time stuff and the, the mind stuff, I'm sure they've got stuff. I even showed a video one time about, uh, this is white world technology. You can look it up. You Google rat brain F-22. And it's from the University of Southern California, Southern Florida. And it's a guy doing, he takes 20,000 neurons of a rat brain, puts them in a little Petri dish, wires them into an F-22 simulator, and they start sending signals back and forth. And the first day, there's neurons are all there. Second day, they're starting to form. Third day, it's a brain. They're all talking to each other and stuff like that. And they wire it and they got the F-22 flying with the 20,000 rat brain neurons.

• 2:51:28Speaker 02

  And then they change the wind and they got everything. You can probably crosswinds and, and thunderstorms and stuff. And the thing keeps flying it. That's 20, 21 year old technology, white world technology. Can you imagine what they've got in this whole bio thing? Cause I wrote the whole book on UFO sky pods where I write 36 people that mysteriously came to me. And I'll say, I've flown the craft.

• 2:51:49Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:51:50Speaker 02

  Well, yeah. And the first, the first woman that told me this, I.

• 2:51:53Jesse Michels?

  You've had 36 people say they've flown the craft?

• 2:51:55Speaker 02

  And I've got way more than that now, yeah.

• 2:51:57Jesse Michels?

  Can I interview any of them?

• 2:51:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:51:58Jesse Michels?

  Who, where are these people?

• 2:52:00Speaker 02

  My assistants is one, uh, Whitney Streber is one.

• 2:52:04Jesse Michels?

  Oh, flown inside the craft?

• 2:52:05Speaker 02

  Flown the craft.

• 2:52:06Jesse Michels?

  I thought you, but like.

• 2:52:07Speaker 02

  Fly the craft, like fly it with your mind.

• 2:52:09Jesse Michels?

  Sure, but not like walked inside a hangar in a facility like Bob Lazar did. Get in and then fly it, like.

• 2:52:16Speaker 02

  Not, not in a facility. They, they like, I gotta.

• 2:52:19Jesse Michels?

  Cause I would just, I would make a distinction between somebody who gets abducted or taken by the.

• 2:52:25Speaker 02

  I, I don't think, I don't think the government has much that they can fly. I don't think they, that's the whole thing. That's why.

• 2:52:30Jesse Michels?

  But, but, but what, what happened when the Bob Lazar case where he walks underneath the craft?

• 2:52:34Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's, that's one that I really can't explain whether that's electrostatic or they got some other way or do you think magic trick or something that they wanted to see this and they've got some other way.

• 2:52:44Jesse Michels?

  So none of your 36 witnesses have like walked into a, you know, top secret facility or whatever.

• 2:52:50Speaker 02

  No, they all find themselves on a craft or they're, they're experiencers.

• 2:52:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:54Speaker 02

  I've got a seven, four, seven United Airlines pilot. I got a retired US Air Force Colonel. Willie, uh, my assistant, uh, Whitley Streber.

• 2:53:02Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 2:53:02Speaker 02

  Uh, a lot of people that have, and the first woman that came to me.

• 2:53:06Jesse Michels?

  I'd love to talk to the Colonel.

• 2:53:07Speaker 02

  I, I, yeah, he's, he's in these, the, um, uh, California, um, Orange County group, Mifon group.

• 2:53:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:53:16Speaker 02

  Came after, they said, we were after the group and they said, hey, David, David, you missed Grant's like she was talking about flying a craft. Tell them your story. And I said, you flew the craft? And he said, well, it seemed like a dream. I said, everything's just a dream.

• 2:53:27Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:53:28Speaker 02

  And then he said, well, yeah, I said, you, and then he said, tell me what you do, David. And I said, what do you do? He said, I'm a pilot. I said, oh, my son's a pilot. My father's a pilot. What do you fly? Said, uh, F-16s. I said, F-16s? He said, yeah, I'm a retired US Air Force Colonel out of Iraq. Said, sit down and tell me your story. And, and he just tells a story. I'm on a craft. He says, I suddenly find myself on a craft. This is where you start getting into this weird stuff that I'm researching that everybody lets slip by. I'm standing on a craft. I'm standing on a craft. Just suddenly I'm on a craft and somebody's behind me and they're telling me what to do. And that becomes important. So he says, somebody's standing behind me and telling me what to do. And they say, go ahead and do it. And he says, I don't know what to do. And they said, you know what to do? Just do it. And he sees his panel. He goes to put his hands on the panel. He said,

• 2:54:13Speaker 02

  suddenly he says he's flying an F-16. And he said, it was so weird. And he's flying it. And he takes his hand off a little bit because he's ready for it to stall. He takes his hand off. Nothing happens. He's got his hands. So you can put it back down again. Takes it off. He takes the other hand off and he's flying it. And it's like, holy cow. And then the important thing was these people behind him. So then I started, I, later on, Jim Semivan tells the story. So he's telling the story. He's got the beings in the room. And, uh, he, he doesn't want to talk about it. He said, no, I don't want to talk about it. You know, there are people investigating it and all that. So I never want to talk about it. And anyway, so then the, the interviewer, James, uh, Ian Dolly says, so was there any telepathy involved? And they said, that was the strangest part. He said, I was standing

• 2:54:54Speaker 02

  there with my wife and these beings were there and there was somebody behind me. I couldn't see whether it was an alien or a gray or a tall white. I don't know what it was, but it had this guardian type thing about it. And I'm going guardian type thing? If you're studying Michael Newton, you know, the guard, they go to be far the panel after you die, you go in front of the panel and your spirit guide stands behind you on the left side. And this is a common story. The spirit guy stands on the left side. So I said to James, I said, phone back, ask him what side it was on. And then I talked to Whitley. I said, hey, Whitley, I got this weird thing with these people flying the craft that there's always somebody behind them who is telling them what to do. I said, you run the craft? He said, yeah. Said, do you ever have anybody telling you what to do? He said, all the time. He said, I told you when I was going to fly the craft. He said, I was going to

• 2:55:36Speaker 02

  steal it. I said, I'd like to steal this thing. And somebody started laughing behind him. And he said, he got this confirmation of this weird, these weird things about somebody standing behind them. What's really going on here? And, uh, but a lot of these people, and the whole thing is you put your hand on something like Chris Bessel. So Chris Bessel flew the craft. Then when I heard you flew the craft, I said, you flew, it was just synchronicity, all these people coming to me at the same time. Said, Chris, you flew the craft? He said, yeah. Said, stop right there. I'm going to phone you on Skype. I want you to start from the beginning. I want you to go to the end for five minutes. I said, okay, what happened? Went to the craft, we got on the, on the, on the, went inside and he said there was a, there was a, the beings were there. He draws actually where the beings were, where he was. And there was this pedestal. And the weird thing was I've got 36 people and

• 2:56:19Speaker 02

  nobody touched the same thing. Everybody, it's a different story. So his, there was this pedestal standing in the middle and had this sort of like a, a beehive on the top. And it was black. It was like black plastic. And then he said, he put his hand on, they told him, put his hand on the, on the, on this black thing. And he took his hand off and it looked like, like a, a CD wrong, you know, with the colors going through it. And you could see where his handprint was. And then he said, they had these, these hexagons in the wall and these hexagons were spinning. And he said, they started to spin. They got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, bigger and bigger. And he said, suddenly the window opened and there was a Cape Fear River. And he said, I sat cross-legged on the, on the floor, looking out the window, flying down the Cape Fear River where I was abducted going yahoo and down the river. And so he, he's, he's flown the craft. So

• 2:57:01Speaker 02

  you get these, these weird stories and people where they would say this thing where this indigestible thing where what's really going on? So two of them, one is this Ron Johnson guy. They asked Ron Johnson, they say, Ron, where would you like to go? Said, I'd like to see the Milky Way from a distance. And this is important. They say, Ron, it is within you. Go within yourself. When you can imagine it, then we'll go there. I've got a couple of witnesses said the same, exactly the same thing. So he imagines this thing and he said, boom, he said, one second, intense G-force and almost like papers, like going through a book, going through dimensions or whatever is going on. And he said, it was just intense for one second. And you look out the window and there was Milky Way off in the distance. And other people describe instantly going from one place to another, the same thing where you're told what to think. And that's the question. You start wondering what's

• 2:57:45Speaker 02

  really going on, like remote viewing. What's going on with the remote viewing? If you give the guy a target four, five, three, seven, oh, nine, and you say, okay. And the guy says, okay, I'm at the target. He doesn't say, hang on, I'm flying there. I'll be there in five minutes. You know, he's instantly at the target. And that's what the, the Sufi expression that Greer always uses. You see yourself as a puny form when within you is enfolded, the entire universe. And that's this question, what's really going on about the, the computerized world, simulation? Is there actually a world that's all just, you know, it's all just waves? There's no physical world. There's no time and space. Fields are primary, matter is second. If you Google search it, fields are primary, matter is second. And you start relooking at, at, at reality. And I think that's what

• 2:58:27Speaker 02

  the phenomenon is doing. I call it the theory of wow, or the Jesus circus. So all they're doing is they're doing these weird, weird things that make you go, what the heck is going on? That crop circle, it may it's hoaxed, but how did they do it? And you start wondering and when you got on curiosity or as Einstein said, a mystery is, is at the bottom of all scientific in, uh, creation. It's mystery. It's get you on curiosity where you wonder what's going on. If you, if you got it all figured out, you're not going to do any investigation. But everybody in the UFO field is doing the same thing. They're trying to figure out what's over there. And that's what they're trying to get you to do is they're trying to get you to expand your mind. Just say, if this paranormal stuff is happening, something we got is wrong. And that's when I talk about skepticism. If you look at Descartes, everybody

• 2:59:10Speaker 02

  brings up Descartes skepticism. I say skepticism to me is the left brain interpreter. It's that little voice in your head that just makes up garbage all the time. It's just puts, it's a balloon. Don't worry about it. And then it won't back off. And Descartes said, when he talks about skepticism, he says, I may have to, I may have to throw out everything I've ever learned. And that's what it's about. That's where Mark Twain, famous expression, it's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know that just ain't so. And that's what's happening. We're realizing the world is not the way we think. And that's what the phenomenon is trying to do. And that was the answer to my question. When it was flying away that second day, I go, what's it doing? It's just doing these weird things. People have UFOs saying, I say, what was it doing? I don't know. It's not doing anything. I said, do you think it knew you saw it? Yeah, I think so.

• 2:59:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think you're right. I do think the phenomena engages in sort of systematic, uh, and random, uh, brain scrambling that sort of raises our consciousness in a way that, you know, it's always this game of whack a mole. It's always going to be high strangeness and not match some prior thing. And, um, I think you are doing this right now in this interview. So I, I'm so impressed by you. I think you might be an alien, Grant. This is, this is really fun and you are just filled with so many anecdotes and so much knowledge. And, uh, I love that you've explored so many things around government programs, nuts and bolts, uh, and you're probably the tip of the spear of a lot of that stuff. I mean, you literally were responsible for getting out the Wilson Davis memo. And then

• 3:00:38Jesse Michels?

  you come to this sort of conclusion that we are, you know, that's more metaphysical, that we are in this sort of, you know, physical realm, but there are these sort of, you know, events that occur at the margins with this sort of more spiritual realm in some sort of, I don't know, this sort of simulation theory or something. And Jacques Vallée obviously talked about a control system.

• 3:00:58Speaker 02

  I used to think he was nuts. I used to think he was totally nuts.

• 3:01:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:01:01Speaker 02

  And then he made that famous statement. I, when I see the, I'm in a movie theater and I see the screen, I look at that little hole in the wall and I say, boy, I'd like to get the key and go into that room and see what's going on where that light's coming out of the, that's the whole thing of the cave, you know, where you've seen the, the images. And that's, that's where I think they're trying to force us. They're trying to force us to question.

• 3:01:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:01:20Speaker 02

  What we understand.

• 3:01:21Jesse Michels?

  Or, you know, um, reality itself is like a mirror. I'm getting this from, taking this from, um, trans surfing reality, which is one of my favorite books by a guy named Vadim Zeland, who's this reclusive, uh, Russian, uh, physicist, uh, quantum physicist, who it might be a conglomerate of, you know, certain people or, uh, or, uh, yeah, it might be a patchwork of other people, but, um, you know, sort of, I don't know, fell off the map. And he says, it's like, you know, you're standing in front of a mirror. On the mirror, you see this sort of, you know, it's not a perfect, you know, there's, there's somewhat of a lag. Obviously the photons have to bounce back and forth between your eyes, but you're seeing this sort of expression of kind of what's in your mind, like projection of your subconscious.

• 3:02:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Exactly.

• 3:02:04Jesse Michels?

  I think in reality, obviously you're seeing a projection of your subconscious married to something that is a little more objective, kind of like a, a neutral monist sort of viewpoint. Um, but then you, you take a step back outside of the mirror and you look around and that's reality itself. So it's like you have a headset on at all times or something.

• 3:02:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you see that the reflective is, is a big word now that I start to use. Brandon Fugel uses it when he goes to skinwalker ranch. He says, clearly, the phenomenon is reflective. Be careful what you think when you go on the, on the, on the, on the ranch. That if you, like these three guys, the armed guys, the special forces guys that went on there and they were going to play, you know, hunt the skinwalker and the phenomenon, I always call it the intelligence. What I just call it the intelligence, whatever it is. And it says, you want to play hunter skinwalker? We'd love to play that game. And these guys are running for.

• 3:02:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So, um, what's inside of you will get excavated, just like a psychedelic trip or something. And, and I think, yeah, he has another story of a Hells Angels chief or whatever, you know, getting zapped and then in a catatonic state, just, just, you know, paralyzed there.

• 3:03:07Speaker 02

  Same as Taylor. Taylor was most and often they give him this little zap, you know, with the, the radio activities.

• 3:03:13Jesse Michels?

  Is that Travis Taylor?

• 3:03:14Speaker 02

  Travis Taylor.

• 3:03:14Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting. I also went probably at my highest ego time in my life and I didn't have a great month afterwards. And I don't know how correlated that was. It wasn't explicitly paranormal, but. Grant, this has been a pleasure, man. I really, really appreciate this. Hopefully I can get you out to Austin, Texas, because I'd love to do this in the studio and follow up because I just really get the sense we kind of just scratched the surface, but um.

• 3:03:39Speaker 02

  And watch my new stuff. I think I'm, I've been led and I think I'm on the right, especially I think I've mentioned to you, I've got a, like, an experiment that's about to go one way or the other on the proof of the soul.

• 3:03:50Jesse Michels?

  You should talk to Chris about that. I'll let that be.

• 3:03:54Speaker 02

  It's led me a lot of times where I get, you know, a lot of downloads and I get a lot of direction and Tim Taylor says the same thing, you know, and Gary Nolan says the same thing. I don't know, I don't know what's going on. I don't know if there's little elves in my head, but I know how to make it work. And he tells this whole story about how he puts strings together and he puts all things, he thinks about it, and then he puts on a piece of paper beside the bed and he said, you do the next morning or within a couple of days, the answer is in my head.

• 3:04:19Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:04:19Speaker 02

  So you see, these people are starting to learn this, this, these things that it's not the physical world people think it is. It's much more grand, it's much more magnificent. And the deeper you look into the microscopic stuff, the more complex it gets, the more you look out there, the more complex it gets.

• 3:04:35Jesse Michels?

  Absolutely.

• 3:04:35Speaker 02

  More grand. And that's what they're trying to tell us. It's not this simple world that you think it is. And, and they do that through this weird, weird, weird stuff, which everybody's down the rabbit hole, you can't get out, you know, to do. And so, yeah, I'm, to me, it's the Super Bowl. And I'm glad to have played in the game. You're the same thing. It's like, most people live lives of quiet desperation and have no clue what's going on. And you and I not only know that there's a game, we're inside the stadium and we're on the field, maybe the water boy or the quarterback or whatever, but we're playing the game, which is the Super Bowl of all.

• 3:05:06Jesse Michels?

  Well, you might be the quarterback. I'm, I'm special teams, but Grant, on that note, appreciate you, man.

• 3:05:12Speaker 02

  Thank you for what you do. You're the big voice that's, that has to, has to move it out. So it doesn't really help if, if I learn it and don't tell anybody. So thanks for what you do.

• 3:05:20Jesse Michels?

  Oh, well, I appreciate, thank you, man. I'm, I'm just the, I make videos, so.

• 3:05:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:25Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. Head to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly. And while you're there, the Cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite we always keep in stock, along with the Atomic Age design. Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show.