"I Found Hitler’s Secret UFO Program!” -Jason Jorjani

Disclaimer: This video is an educational and philosophical discussion about historical events and post-war stories. Our returning American Alchemist this week is Jason Reza Jorjani | Thanks To Our Sponsors | Shopify: Start your business for just $1/month at https://shopify.com/jesse. Sponsored by Shopify, the commerce platform behind millions of businesses and 10% of all U. S. e-commerce. MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at https://ambassadors.mudwtr.com/JESSE #mudwtrpod Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/jesse and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. Cornbread Hemp: Go to https://www.cornbreadhemp.com/jesse and use code JESSE at checkout to save 30% on your first order of Cornbread Hemp CBD. Cornbread Hemp: This is the good life. What if the war never ended…just changed shape? | Jason Reza Jorjani | Website➤https://jasonrezajorjani.com/ IG➤https://www.instagram.com/jasonrezajorjani/ X➤https://x.com/Jason_Jorjani Substack➤https://substack.com/@jasonrezajorjani Chapters 00:00 Intro 01:57 THE DEATH OF PHILOSOPHY & THE RISE OF PARAPSYCHOLOGY 05:27 ETHICS, AESTHETICS & THE LOST ART OF THINKING 09:12 RELIGION VS PURE PHILOSOPHY 12:11 HEIDEGGER, STRAUSS & THE QUESTION OF TRUE PHILOSOPHERS 14:44 AVICENNA, FEAR & INTELLECTUAL MARTYRDOM 17:44 ARISTOTLE, ALEXANDER & THE ONE WORLD ORDER 19:37 PHILOSOPHER VS STATE | THE PERIL OF IDEAS 23:13 NIETZSCHE, HISTORY & THE MONUMENTAL PAST 28:30 R. A. N. D., UFO TECH & THE MAGENTA CRASH (1933) 31:43 SKODA WORKS | THE BELL & ZERO-POINT ENERGY 35:12 MEMORY METAL, GERMAN TECH & ROSWELL DEBRIS 38:40 DEGLOCKE | ANTI-GRAVITY & TIME DISTORTION 42:10 TORSION FIELDS, TIME TRAVEL & HUMAN EXPERIMENTS 51:19 NAZI SAUCER PROPULSION & THE WONDER WEAPONS 53:13 FRANCO, SCORZENY & THE SPAIN LAUNCHES 55:58 OPERATION PAPERCLIP & THE BIRTH OF THE CIA 1:02:18 ODESSA, SPECTRE & THE TRUE DEEP STATE 1:05:18 RICHTER’S ARGENTINE FUSION PROJECT 1:07:14 NAZI NUKES, FISSION VS FUSION & SECRET TESTS 1:13:11 DID THE U. S. TRADE WITH THE SS FOR URANIUM? 1:16:09 CLEAN FUSION WEAPONS & THE HIDDEN DEAL 1:17:14 THE REAL NAZI VICTORY | 1945–2045 SOCIAL ENGINEERING 1:23:30 WELTANSCHAUUNGSKRIEG | THE WORLDVIEW WAR 1:31:07 THE VRIL SOCIETY & SUPERMAN TELEPATHY 1:34:29 ANTARCTICA | ATLANTIS REDISCOVERED 1:41:36 RUDOLF HESS, SECRET FLIGHTS & PEACE OFFERS 1:44:18 BLACK OCTAGON STRUCTURE | ANTARCTIC DISCLOSURE 1:47:32 OPERATION HIGHJUMP & ADMIRAL BYRD’S WARNING 1:49:27 THE BIRTH OF THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE 1:52:11 ATLANTIS, IRAN & THE ARYAN ORIGINS 1:55:43 EARTH CRUST DISPLACEMENT & POLE SHIFT THEORY 2:00:23 THE TUNGUSKA EVENT & ENERGY WEAPON HYPOTHESIS 2:05:48 ATLANTEAN SURVIVORS & TIME WAR CIVILIZATION 2:10:39 REINHOLD SCHMIDT & EARLY ALIEN CONTACTS 2:15:33 DESMOND LESLIE, VENUSIANS & THE GREAT DECEPTION 2:17:12 KNIGHTS OF MALTA, BLACKMAIL & POWER NETWORKS 2:21:46 COSMIC FACTIONS | ANGELS, ASURAS & CONTROL SYSTEMS 2:25:13 THE ANGELIC HIVE MIND & SOUL MACHINERY 2:31:16 THE MOON AS A CONSCIOUSNESS HARVESTER 2:36:22 REMOTE VIEWING, MOKSHA & SOLAR SYSTEM WAR 2:40:16 PROMETHEUS, HUMAN ORIGINS & THE FIRE OF GODS 2:42:21 THE NORDICS, NUKES & INTERVENTION 2:52:50 TEMPORAL DISORIENTATION & MISSING 411 3:03:19 MEN IN BLACK, MANTIDS & THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TRICKSTER 3:16:29 THE OWLS, LUCIFER & THE COSMIC TEST 3:35:19 PHILOSOPHY VS FAITH | PROMETHEAN REBELLION 3:41:02 THEATER OF CONSCIOUSNESS | THE COSMIC PLAY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You have to take seriously this claim on the part of the Nazi leadership that they wanted a thousand-year Reich.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  A thousand-year Imperium is no joke.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  Perhaps the best-known abduction of all, and one of the earliest reported, is the abduction of a well-respected New England couple, Betty and Barney Hill.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  Look back at Barney Hill's original statements.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  The evil face, the evil, like a German Nazi.

• 0:37Speaker 00

  Mankind has been seeking knowledge. Alan Dulles and his brother, John Foster Dulles, together with Jacob Morgan Chase and Rockefeller, funded the rise of the Nazis.

• 0:47Jesse Michels?

  Is the implication that there's some sort of Nazi sleeper cell undergirding American politics today?

• 0:58Speaker 00

  So World War II is not what we think it is. They were seeing these rocket-like things that were saucer-shaped, being launched from Spain, the Mediterranean coast, over toward America.

• 1:09Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:10Speaker 00

  One year later, what happens? Roswell.

• 1:12Jesse Michels?

  I mean, is the idea that there is some sort of, like, Atlantean surviving remnant group that's still there?

• 1:19Speaker 00

  So for all we know, what's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is contacting itself in the past.

• 1:26Jesse Michels?

  Trying to pull the timeline towards itself for some...

• 1:29Speaker 00

  To actualize itself. In fact, trans-temporarily actualize itself.

• 1:57Jesse Michels?

  Jason Reza Giorgiani, back by popular demand. Thank you so much for coming on. And, you know, we just launched an episode and people are absolutely loving it. So check that out, part one. But there are so many other threads I wanted to get into. And I left that conversation thinking that there was a lot that was left kind of unsaid and we could have gone on for hours. So I'm very excited to do this. You're one of the few thinkers I know who doesn't just sort of know a bunch of random disparate facts around the phenomenon, but tries to piece them together into some sort of coherent worldview, which is kind of a Herculean task. But you're attempting to do that.

• 2:40Jesse Michels?

  And I can't think of too many other, I mean, Jacques Vallée might be another one. But there aren't too many thinkers trying to do that. So this is very cool.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  Thank you. You know, that made me think of something that actually, you know, would probably be a good preface to this conversation. Because I think that one of the most significant crises that we face in our civilization and, you know, in the world at large, is the decline of philosophy.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  The reduction of philosophy to academic scholasticism and logic chopping and the lack of deep, serious, broad-spectrum thinking that would be capable of, for example, tackling the close encounter phenomenon. Right? I mean, obviously, it should be philosophers who are engaging, both with the data of close encounters and parapsychological data. In fact, you know, there were people in philosophy who played a fundamental role in development of parapsychology at its outset. Both William James and Henri Bergson were among the founding parapsychologists.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  In the era of psychical research.

• 3:57Jesse Michels?

  In fact, William James was the president of the Society for Psychical Research in the 1870s.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  And Bergson was as well later on.

• 4:06Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  In the 1910s or something like that.

• 4:09Jesse Michels?

  There you go. And this is a time when parapsychology wasn't relegated to quacky circles and, you know, new agey conferences. Bergson was debating Einstein at the time, and so he was considered a worthy debate partner for Einstein, who himself wasn't, you know, fully accepted by mainstream science, but was very well respected.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Yes, and James had predicted in the era when he was the president of the Society for Psychical Research, that this would be the next great scientific revolution, right? What I, in my writings, have called the spectral revolution. And it didn't happen. And, you know, in my first book, From Aetius and Atlas, I ventured a, you know, a basically theory of why it didn't happen. And that's because of the extremely serious psychological and sociological implications of mainstream acceptance of things like telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance, and so forth. And so, you know, it's not only essential for philosophers

• 5:14Speaker 00

  to engage with the ontological and epistemological questions inherent in parapsychological data or close encounter phenomena, but also the ethical and political ramifications. And this brings me to what I wanted to say in response to your opening, which is that I've made an argument now in several of my books, that it's definitional to the type of the philosopher to develop concepts that cut across all of the major domains of philosophy, from ontology and epistemology to then an ethics and a politics that follow from that

• 5:56Speaker 00

  ontological and epistemic thinking. And then also, I think aesthetics is very important. From the time of Plato onward, there's been this idea that the cultivation of aesthetic discernment and the capacity to perceive the beautiful or the sublime.

• 6:13Speaker 00

  Is also another pathway to knowledge. And perhaps to a kind of knowledge that transcends or undergirds reductive rationality. Hmm. Right? And in particular, I think that aesthetic judgment is very closely connected to ethics. And it's something that, you know, Nietzsche understood, Friedrich Nietzsche understood very well.

• 6:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he says, I think there's some quote, I'm gonna butcher it, but it's like, life is only eternally justified in its aesthetic form or something. And he, yeah, he fully believed that.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  And Nietzsche wasn't alone. I mean, look, if you, I mean, Kant is well known for being a very principled, a hyper rational advocate of this crystalline universal ethics. But if you ask me, Kant's most interesting work is his aesthetic work. And it's in his aesthetics and his third critique, Critique of Judgment, that you can see the connection between Kant's interest in the occult and Kant's development of this universal ethics. Then, for example, Hegel has an entire account of how you can see the evolution of human consciousness, or what he called spirit,

• 7:24Speaker 00

  through changes in aesthetic styles, changes in, you know, artistic expression from epoch to epoch, and how they reflect the evolution of the perceptive and cognitive capacities of humanity. So, okay, my point is that to be a philosopher, you really have to be thinking across all of these domains and developing concepts that cut across them. Above all, because you cannot have any unquestioned presuppositions. So you could be the most brilliant, let's say, metaphysician, right? And someone who's developing a very rigorous epistemology.

• 8:04Speaker 00

  But if you have unquestioned political presuppositions, it's going to be tacitly warping your ontology and epistemology. And if you want to really be a philosopher, you know, which is to say, someone who from the era of Socrates onward was defined by boundless, limitless, and thoroughgoing questioning, you really cannot give yourself the luxury of unquestioned assumptions in any area. Right? So, I mean, this has very serious implications for religion, obviously, because it means that it's definitional to a philosopher that he or she, I consider Ayn Rand, for example,

• 8:48Speaker 00

  to be a real philosopher in this sense, he or she cannot accept any religion. It is definitional to a philosopher that you cannot adhere to a religious belief system. I mean, you are crippling yourself and your, you know, your basically capacity to question and develop concepts from the outset if you have any kind of a religious commitment. Would you say Saint Thomas Aquinas not a philosopher? Exactly. So, the entirety of medieval European philosophy is not philosophy. And none of these people were philosophers. And also, in Iran, you know, I spent a lot of time both studying Iran and also making significant contributions to Iranian studies.

• 9:32Speaker 00

  My book, Iranian Leviathan, is a tome on the history of Iran from Zarathustra to the Islamic Republic. And so what this also means is that this whole era that's misnamed the Islamic Golden Age, which really was like an Iranian renaissance from the 900s to the 1100s.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Really doesn't have very many philosophers involved with it. Because these people were essentially Islamic theologians of the type of Thomas Aquinas, like for example, Al-Farabi. Al-Farabi goes to the extent of equating Muhammad with Plato's ideal of the philosopher king, which is an absolute travesty. The only thinkers in that era that really exemplified the type of the philosopher were, for example, Razi, whose writings almost completely were destroyed by various, you

• 10:33Speaker 00

  know, inquisitors later on, once the Turks came in and re-solidified Islam in Iran. And maybe Shahab al-Din Sohrabi. But it means that that whole period in Iran, very much like Europeans, medieval so-called philosophy, really doesn't pass muster. But why am I getting into all this? The point is that it seems almost as if we're entering another dark age now, with the lack of substantive philosophical thinking and fewer and fewer individuals who really pass muster as exemplary of the type of the philosopher in the way that, let's say,

• 11:15Speaker 00

  in the 20th century, we had Martin Heidegger, Jean-Paul Sartre, Ludwig Wittgenstein and other really deep thinkers.

• 11:25Jesse Michels?

  So philosopher can't be an extension of state power or religious power is sort of what you're getting at. I mean, to play devil's advocate, you have philosophers like Leo Strauss also mid-

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Not a philosopher.

• 11:39Jesse Michels?

  So you'd say not a philosopher.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  Strauss said so. Strauss literally said, "I am not a philosopher. Do not call me a philosopher. I'm a professor of philosophy and a political thinker."

• 11:49Jesse Michels?

  But in Straussian doublespeak, that could mean I am a philosopher.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  He meant it. He meant it. And the more shocking thing that Strauss said was, at the same time as he made this statement, he said Martin Heidegger is the only living philosopher, which coming from out of the mouth of a Jew is quite a striking statement, right?

• 12:09Speaker 00

  Heidegger having been a high level Nazi functionary.

• 12:11Jesse Michels?

  But wouldn't a Straussian read on many past philosophers be that many of them had to exceed to kind of the conventional thought of the time, but then secretly they could hold their own kind of heretical beliefs? So like, you know, I'm trying to think of a good example, like was, you know, one of the Enlightenment era, you know, Francis Bacon, not really a philosopher, kind of a philosopher, but like, you know, he would say things like, you know, we need empiricism to prove out God's secrets or to, you know, understand the divine nature of the world and reality. And the Straussian read on that is like, he's sort of a deist or an atheist and he doesn't believe in God at all.

• 12:51Jesse Michels?

  And he's just sort of, you know, placating and paying lip service to, you know, the establishment power.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Well, I think that through careful study, that could be verified. So you brought up the case of Francis Bacon. There is a theory that Will I Am Shakespeare has a pen name for Sir Francis Bacon.

• 13:10Jesse Michels?

  People think that.

• 13:10Speaker 00

  Okay. Now, if someone were to engage in exhaustive philosophical analysis of the works of Shakespeare and be able to prove that that was indeed a literary persona of Sir Francis Bacon.

• 13:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 13:24Speaker 00

  Then I think a very good case could be made that Francis Bacon was a first rate philosopher.

• 13:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 00

  Because there's an ethics, there's a political philosophy in Shakespeare that, you know, and you could reconstruct that. So that would be a case of an actual philosopher engaging in esoteric writing in order to express the full range of his thought.

• 13:43Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe that Shakespeare was in fact Francis Bacon?

• 13:46Speaker 00

  I think it's possible. I think there's an argument there. I don't have the range of Shakespeare scholarship to anywhere close to it to be able to assess that.

• 13:55Jesse Michels?

  I think it was like, you know, there are all these kind of occult references, like in King Lear or something like these, you know, things were, forgot the exact argument, but it was like Stratford upon Avon wasn't super far from where Bacon was. And then, you know, all these things are mentioned like 33 times and who knows?

• 14:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, look, it's clearly.

• 14:16Jesse Michels?

  Bacon was prolific, you know?

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Will I Am? I am Will. You know, the Will, I'm the Will. Shakespeare, the shaking of the spear, right? Is clearly a pseudonym.

• 14:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 00

  For someone who was an incredible genius. So who the hell was that guy? Like, at that time, who was living and, you know, who maybe expressed his genius in other ways, as in the scientific writings of, of, and then there's the New Atlantis.

• 14:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  So, anyway, it could be, look, but my point is this, that

• 14:48Speaker 00

  that's one thing, but if you're a philosopher who's, look, let me rephrase that. If you're a metaphysician who's afraid to express a political philosophy, because you might be persecuted by the religious authorities of the day, and you just don't, uh, put pen to paper, you know, in any way. Even, even let's say, as a set of secret writings that you consigned to somebody to be posthumously published. If you just never put pen to paper to express any kind of coherent political philosophy or ethics that follows from your ontology and epistemology, you're not a philosopher, you're a coward. Okay? And so, for example, in Iran, we had an example of somebody like that was Ibn Sina, or who has, they call him Avicenna in the West. Great metaphysician.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Maybe he has some ethics, but he did not develop a coherent political philosophy, which, uh, as I see it, disqualifies him as the type of the philosopher. And he made a deathbed confession.

• 15:46Jesse Michels?

  When we first started selling merchandise at AmericanAlchemyMerch.com, we had no idea how complicated and annoying selling merch could be. We talked to a dozen different platforms and companies comparing shipping tools, payment options, website builders, and it all felt like way more of a headache and complicated than it should be. We decided on Shopify, and within days, our store was up. Everything was running cleanly in an automated way, so we could just focus on the brand and the vision we had for it. That's when it hit us. Ideas don't scale on inspiration alone. They need a structure, a container. Shopify provides that structure. It quietly powers millions of creators and brands,

• 16:28Jesse Michels?

  about 10% of all United States e-commerce. From Big Names like Jim Shark and Mattel to solo creators building from their bedrooms. Shopify made it simple to build a store that actually feels authentic to us, which matters when your brand lives in a niche like alternative tech, UFOs, or fringe science, and when you have a very clear brand vision. Plus, their AI tools help write descriptions, organize products, even clean up photos. So we can focus on what matters and what we care about, building the best custom merch line possible with the coolest designs, like our UFO cowboy tee and the atomic age tee. Plus, Shopify handles all of the unglamorous, more painful stuff:

• 17:10Jesse Michels?

  shipping, returns, email marketing, all in one clean dashboard. It's like having a silent partner who never sleeps. Our favorite part of the product is the dashboard, which gives us complete demographic information. We can see where our orders come from, making it easy to know who our most loyal, consistent customers are around the world. That's just one example, but Shopify really makes your life easier. Bring your next idea to life with Shopify quietly handling everything behind it. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start today at Shopify.com/Jesse. Again, that's Shopify.com/Jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for a $1 a month trial.

• 17:52Jesse Michels?

  Again, that's just $1 a month to try Shopify, the state of the art solution in e-commerce.

• 17:58Speaker 00

  Saying that, you know, these bastard Islamic clerics have made it impossible to think freely in this country. And I had to basically disimulate and warp all of my ideas and my writings out of constant fear of persecution by the authorities. So he did say that before he died.

• 18:17Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  To be a philosopher, you have to risk that. And you have to be willing to be turned into a human torch, like Jordana Bruno in the town square of Rome, or Socrates, or Pythagoras, who had his schools burned down in his own lifetime, right?

• 18:28Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I didn't know that about Pythagoras.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, some say he died in the fires. Others say he barely escaped with his life and died from injuries shortly thereafter. But Pythagoras was the first one to be martyred in the history of philosophy, and then Socrates. And then they almost killed that, both Plato and Aristotle. Plato went to Syracuse to try to convince this tyrant Dionysus to become a philosopher king, as he had, you know, outlined in Republic. And basically, the entire court of Syracuse conspired against Plato, and he had to escape by boat in the middle of the night, narrowly escaped with his life. And then Aristotle willingly left Athens because there was a plot to have him prosecuted also. So this is endemic to the history of philosophy.

• 19:15Jesse Michels?

  When was this pre-tutoring Alexander the Great or post?

• 19:18Speaker 00

  It was pre because Alexander was younger, right? And then, and they say by the way out that Alexander didn't like Aristotle.

• 19:25Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:26Jesse Michels?

  Why didn't he like him?

• 19:29Speaker 00

  Aristotle ran a think tank. In addition to being like a philosopher, you know, engaged in his own individual exploration and contemplation, he had essentially like the prototype of the Rand Corporation in classical Greece. And various other city-states would come to him, and he would write their constitutions for them secretly. You know, you don't want to tell your people that their constitution comes from some guy's think tank in Athens. If you're living in Corinth or, you know, Sparta or whatever. But they would come to him and he would write. Part of his political philosophy that informed his writing constitutions for various city-states was that we should always have a political pluriverse.

• 20:12Speaker 00

  He was very much against one unifying government. Aristotle was the first serious thinker to critique the idea of world government. And so, for example, he was very wary of the Persians, who wanted to establish a kind of, you know, humanistic one-world order, right? Well, Alexander actually had great reverence for the Persians. In particular, his hero was Cyrus the Great, the founder of the Persian Empire. The first thing he did when he got to Iran was he had them take him to the tomb of Cyrus so that he could pay his respects to Cyrus the Great. And eventually, Alexander became convinced that the Persians had the right worldview

• 20:55Speaker 00

  and that the whole earth and all of its cultures should be unified into a single cosmopolitan order, which eventually was reflected in the culture of the city of Alexandria that was named after him in Egypt, became like the cosmopolitan bastion of the world, right? So this is diametrically opposed to Aristotle's thinking. You know, Alexander becomes the exemplar of the idea of the one world order and Aristotle is the first critic of it.

• 21:20Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, that's so fascinating when things like that happen. A modern example of that would be like George Soros and Viktor Orban, who's kind of a mentee and mentor and like Soros is obviously all about spreading as much democracy as possible. Orban was kind of his understudy and then now, you know, is totally split off and is, you know, basically the tip of the spear when it comes to European nationalism.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:44Jesse Michels?

  And, uh, you know, that's, it almost feels Shakespearean in some ways.

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Now, that's the other thing about the type of the philosopher, which is very dangerous, is the relationship between the philosopher and the state. Because frankly, you cannot be a nationalist and be a philosopher.

• 22:05Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 22:06Speaker 00

  Okay, so any philosopher who seems like a nationalist, like says a Martin Heidegger, right, who literally was, you know, a Nazi functionary.

• 22:13Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  They're engaging in, I was about to say Straussian, rather in Platonic dissimulation and some kind of a noble lie.

• 22:24Jesse Michels?

  So do you think Heidegger was not a real philosopher?

• 22:28Speaker 00

  No, Heidegger was not a real nationalist.

• 22:30Jesse Michels?

  Was not a real nationalist.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  And if, when you study Heidegger deeply, you see that, it's very clear, but only to someone with an esoteric eye for it and who can sync together with him on a deep level, understand what he's really saying, right? So he was trying to use the German state in a certain way. That had to do with his understanding of the threat posed to humanity by modern technology and a way that he thought that the German state could be shaped to confront the instrumentalizing and mechanizing threat of modern technology, to shepherd technological development in a certain direction that would prevent the instrumentalization of humanity

• 23:14Speaker 00

  and our alienation from our existential essence, right? So, but the deeper question is this, like, I mean, Socrates was executed by the Athenian state, right? And in his discourse on the arts and sciences, Jean-Jacques Rousseau says that the Athenians were justified in doing this because the guy was a menace to the social order and to the political cohesion of Athens. And that any thinker has to, has to basically reconcile himself to the sovereignty of the state and to like, basically accommodating the social order, right?

• 23:56Speaker 00

  So Rousseau actually thinks that philosophers, you know, pose this like fundamental, you know, inimical challenge to state power. And I think that on some level, he's right. But the irony also is that, especially in grave crises and what Carl Schmitt called states of emergency, I think it's also the philosophers of a people who can save a people. You know, a nation that lacks a philosopher or lacks deep thinkers in a moment of grave crisis is not going to make it.

• 24:28Jesse Michels?

  No, that feels very right to me. And it feels like the modern world has very few. I think of

• 24:38Jesse Michels?

  Big philosophers today and that, you know, you're sort of one of them. And then you have, you know, guys like Slavoj Zizek or whatever, who's, you know, super too postmodern for my taste, but you know, he's at least attempting. And then, I don't know, even Jordan Peterson, in my mind, who I think he sort of falls prey to, it's like narcissism of small differences between him and postmodernism. Cause I think his, his stuff sort of melts into a postmodern gobbledygook or whatever, but he's, he's trying, he's, you know, read all the right stuff or whatever. But there are very few philosophers who are very ambitious, you know? I think most philosophy professors at universities just give you these very conventional, kind

• 25:19Jesse Michels?

  of lame, limited by modern epistemics reads of these past philosophers. And you're sort of supposed to, there's a great, actually essay by Nietzsche called On History, and he talks about undigested stones of knowledge. And it feels like that's what they're, they're just, they're just passing on these undigested stones of knowledge. They're not actually processing any, any of what they're saying.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Yes. And that essay, that's incredibly important essay. It became fundamental to Heidegger's thinking. And Heidegger basically quotes it at the beginning of Being in Time. And it also has become very important to my work. In particular, that book, Iranian Leviathan, that I mentioned, the subtitle is A Monumental History of Mithra's Abode. And that term monumental history is from that essay of Nietzsche, The Uses and Abuses of History for Life. And he basically says that there's three modes of history. One is antiquarian history, which is what traditionalists do, where they glorify the past, right? And like the ultimate form of this is the Hindu or ancient Greek worldview where there was a golden age and then it decayed into a silver age and a bronze age and so on and

• 26:27Speaker 00

  so forth. And so history is declining, right? And all we can do is try to hold on to fragments of the past to the better days and to preserve as much of our heritage as possible. I mean, it's conservatism in an ontological sense.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  Then there's critical history, which is what these Pomo people do. Like you're just mentioning Zizek, right? Zizek is like, you know, probably, yeah, the greatest living exemplar of postmodern philosophy. And critical history is all about deconstructing power structures and showing how basically every institution and even every structure of knowledge was ultimately the product of a power game that somebody was playing and that it benefits either some class interest or institutional interest or, you know, is a product of rivalry between nations or ethnicities and so on and so forth. And that it's all oppressive and it should all be deconstructed. It's like pouring acid on history

• 27:25Speaker 00

  and the achievements of all people throughout time. And Nietzsche says, okay, to be fair,

• 27:34Speaker 00

  under really oppressive conditions that are resulting in social sterility and that are hampering innovation and novel cultural development, a little bit of critical history is a good thing because it breaks up ossified structures and it allows creativity to be unleashed again, right? So Michel Foucault is a great example. Michel Foucault is the ultimate critical historian. I mean, that was basically his project.

• 27:57Jesse Michels?

  Everything's a power game.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  And with all these histories that he engaged in, including history of sexuality, you know, history of the prison system, history of psychology and so on. Then-

• 28:08Jesse Michels?

  And his own personal life. He sort of, you know, was, who's kind of a pervert, to be honest. And I think it was kind of an expression of the morality that comes from that kind of world.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I'll tell you what's also an expression of that is that Foucault endorsed Ayatollah Khomeini and the Islamic Revolution in Iran. I mean, how lost do you have to be in postmodern nonsense? That you think it's a liberation to help a misogynistic, seocratic, repressive regime come to power, right? Anyway, so that's critical history. And then the last modality of history that Nietzsche discusses in that essay, which is the one that he personally embraces and that I have and that's been very important to my work, is monumental history, which is the idea that-

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Monumentalizing certain past achievements, turning certain historical figures into icons that can continue to provide inspiration, and having essentially a folkloric approach to one's heritage. So that it doesn't become an ossified tradition, but it becomes a source of inspiration where you can dynamically adopt and adapt your heritage for future development. That's vital to the life of a people. And he says that it's like, you know, a tree whose branches can only grow toward the

• 29:34Speaker 00

  sun of destiny if it's deeply rooted in the earth and its roots are healthy, underground. And that underground is the subconscious. It's that monumental history is nourished from out of the subconscious. And not everything in the past of a people has to be or should be rationally dissected and understood. That we need to maintain a kind of subconscious connection to the mythic substratum of our heritage as a wellspring for continued creativity, both in the arts and the sciences.

• 30:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I love that. He's so inspiring when you read him. I like, you know, he is, he seems very irrational and kind of iconoclastic and maybe a little crazy, you know, in his personal life and stuff. And Nietzsche was almost like the first incel or something. But, uh, but he was also just so inspiring. You read his work and it's, it's, it's full of vitality and life. So it felt like this weird juxtaposition. You had his, you know, his kind of personal life, which he was kind of, you know, withering away. And then, and then you have the writing, which was so vital.

• 30:41Speaker 00

  I love him. I feel a very deep affinity to Nietzsche. I'd say Plato, Nietzsche, and Heidegger are probably the three philosophers who most deeply impacted my own thinking.

• 30:51Jesse Michels?

  Well, you mentioned the Rand Corporation. We're in Santa Monica right now, near the Rand Corporation. I believe Rand stands for R and D, Research and Development, was formed in, I believe, the mid to late 50s, one of these sort of federally funded research and development centers that was meant to look into all sorts of issues of national security. It's kind of a, you know, it's as when we talk about the proverbial deep state, you think of the Rand Corporation. And a man who was offered to be president of the Rand Corporation, some people might not know this, is a past interviewee of mine, a guy named Harold Malmgren, who was a senior presidential advisor for JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford, and

• 31:33Jesse Michels?

  said all sorts of really bombshell stuff when it came to UFOs, including he held pieces of a UFO at Sandia Complex in New Mexico, who was, it was given to him by Lawrence Presley Geis, who's Jeff Bezos's maternal grandfather, which is fascinating. And he talked about the Magenta Crash, Malmgren did, and his mentor, Richard Bissell, who founded Area 51, briefing him on other worldly technologies. Yeah. What else did Richard Bissell tell you?

• 32:02Speaker 04

  He said this didn't start last week. This has been going on. He mentioned that in 1933, Magenta.

• 32:12Jesse Michels?

  He did?

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:13Jesse Michels?

  Richard Bissell mentioned the 1933 Magenta Crash?

• 32:16Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:17Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. So this provided a lot of backup for David Grush's, you know, famous UFO whistleblower who's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure today, his testimony around this Magenta Crash, where he came out, he said that there are covert American UFO reverse engineering programs, we have this whole history on this stuff. But he also said, he talked about one specific crash, and it wasn't Roswell, it was this 1933 Lombardy, you know, northern Italy crash, specifically in Magenta, Italy.

• 32:49Speaker 05

  1933 was the first recovery in Europe, in Magenta, Italy. Italian government moved it to a Secure airbase in Italy for the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944, 1945. And you know, the Pope Pius XII backchanneled that. So the Vatican was involved? Yeah, and told the Americans what the Italians had, and we ended up scooping it.

• 33:11Jesse Michels?

  And you have some interesting connections that you've made between that and Nazi prowess in engineering at the time. As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post-coffee crash, and let's not even get into the caffeine jitters. Mudwater gave me the smooth, steady energy I was missing. It's packed with functional mushrooms like lion's mane, chaga, and reishi, plus turmeric and cacao, all working together to keep me focused, calm, and grounded.

• 33:53Jesse Michels?

  Honestly, it's like coffee went on a yoga retreat and came back zen. What I love most is that it's not just about replacing coffee, it's a whole new ritual. It's a simple, nourishing way to start the day, and I actually look forward to it every morning. Every ingredient is USDA certified organic, vegan, non-GMO, and there's zero sugar. It's energy that doesn't mess with your sleep or make you question your life choices at 3:00 a.m. Ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to mudwtr.com, that's M-U-D-W-T-R dot com, and grab your starter kit today. Right now, our listeners get an exclusive deal, up to 43% off your entire order, plus

• 34:36Jesse Michels?

  free shipping and a free rechargeable frother when you use code JESSIE. That's right, up to 43% off with code JESSIE at M-U-D-W-T-R dot com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mudwater, because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. And so, what do you have to say about all of that?

• 35:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so as far as I understand it, the Vatican was informed of it. The Vatican was informed of it and has a dossier on it. And the Vatican was involved in the...

• 35:17Speaker 00

  Sort of study of this object

• 35:22Speaker 00

  in a joint working group that involved both SS scientists and Italian scientists in a third-party country. So when I wrote my book Closer Encounter.

• 35:33Jesse Michels?

  Did he say third-party country?

• 35:36Speaker 00

  No, but I know it's a third-party country.

• 35:39Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  Because that's where the so-called Bell Project winds up being developed, namely just outside Prague in Czech former Czechoslovakia. Okay, in the Czech Republic. And so when I was doing my research for Closer Encounters, we did not yet have the testimony from Grush about Magenta. I wrote that book in 2021. It was published in 2021. So I studied the Nazi advanced propulsion research that was going on. Again, at a facility called the Skoda Works just outside Prague, under the direction of SS General Hans Kammler.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  After Grush made this testimony about Magenta, I realized why they put it there. Because if the Italians had found this object, and at least from one angle, this was a reverse engineering project, then it makes sense to have chosen a country that was neither Italy nor Germany. The Italians needed the German technical expertise. They were not going to figure out what the hell this thing was by themselves, even though they'd had some very competent scientists. But still, they knew that they had to call the Germans in. And yet, the Germans probably wanted to, you know,

• 36:57Speaker 00

  wanted to respect the Italians by putting this project in a third country that was neither Germany nor Italy. Right? So it was sort of a compromise, axis compromise, to put it in Czechoslovakia. Now, it's an interesting question. How much of what they were doing there was an attempt to reverse engineer whatever crashed at Magenta? And how much of it was a result of Germans grappling with some real nuts and bolts, practical engineering problems? So let me give you an example.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  The saucer airframe very naturally evolved from German aeronautical engineering. They were taking very seriously in the 1930s, the problem of aerodynamics and the boundary layer, where a pocket of air resistance forms around the edges of an aircraft. And it causes drag and impedes maneuverability. So they came up with the idea of creating a saucer shaped craft that would have suction vents all around it. And these suction vents would basically suck in the boundary layer and then redirect the

• 38:20Speaker 00

  air pocket into the propulsion system as part of the propulsion system. And another interesting thing that they developed in connection with this problem of suctioning of the boundary layer and basically making a much more aerodynamic aircraft was they developed a kind of perforated metal, which later was discovered at Roswell.

• 38:45Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 38:46Speaker 00

  According to Corso. And it was a kind of metal where you could put your hand on the other side of it and blow through the metal and feel your breath on your hand. A finely perforated metal.

• 39:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you know the name of this metal?

• 39:01Speaker 00

  I think in German it was called Luftschwarm. Luftschwarm.

• 39:05Jesse Michels?

  Okay, and then Corso.

• 39:06Speaker 00

  Flying foam.

• 39:06Jesse Michels?

  And how do we know? So, net for context, 1947, famous proverbial, you know, archetypal UFO crash occurs in Roswell, which is the home of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis LeMay. Sort of makes, you know, well, it made the Roswell Daily Record, got popularized actually way later, in 1979. But you're saying that the metal found there matches what was discovered in Nazi Germany?

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Some of it, some of it. Now, here's the thing about Roswell, and we'll come back to this.

• 39:39Jesse Michels?

  Is this what Jesse Marcel handled, that metal?

• 39:41Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 39:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 39:42Jesse Michels?

  The memory metal?

• 39:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, certainly memory metal was found there.

• 39:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  Whether these are the same thing and whether the memory metal was this perforated metal, I don't know. But supposedly that was also found there.

• 39:54Jesse Michels?

  Does Corso say that the perforated metal that was found at Roswell matches Nazi?

• 40:01Speaker 00

  No. Joseph Farrell did a study of Corso's claims in the day after Roswell in a book which I believe is called Saucer Swastikas and Psyops. And he went in detail into various cutting-edge German technological innovations of the 1940s, particularly military engineering. And he makes a number of really significant points in this regard. Among the things found at Roswell, according to Corso, was Kevlar, Velcro.

• 40:34Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Night vision and fiber optics.

• 40:38Jesse Michels?

  And lasers, I believe.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  And lasers.

• 40:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 00

  Every, now, this, I mean, okay, I guess space aliens could be using Kevlar. Maybe they could be using Velcro too. But Farrell researched this, and he provides a documentation that shows that the Germans had invented every single one of these in the 1940s. They were not in common use. They were not even accessible to the majority of the German military. But they were being tested, you know, as sort of cutting-edge weapons technology, especially like in the North African desert in 1943, 44.

• 41:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I believe there's, the first patent for a transistor is in Munich or something in the 30s, so.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:20Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  Well, when we went in there, you know, to Nazi Germany, we found that the... German subsidiary of IBM, a company called Dehamog, was way ahead, not only of like all the other American transistor manufacturers, but ahead of the American IBM.

• 41:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 00

  So the German subsidiary was like developing transistors that were much like an order of magnitude smaller than what we had in the United States.

• 41:45Jesse Michels?

  But this brings up two really important questions. One is what caused this just general technological acceleration in Nazi Germany in the, you know, twenties, thirties and forties, I mean, really thirties and forties. If you think about Hitler took power in 1933, which was, you know, you have like 10 years to build up. And you get all sorts of, I mean, look at V2 rockets are like 20, 30 years ahead of anything in the, in the West. You know, all the Wunderwaffe, you know, their fighter jets were, the Skunk Works was kind of a response to the fact that their fighter jets were running circles around ours. So what accounts for that? A, and then B, if they are so advanced technologically,

• 42:26Jesse Michels?

  why did the United States ultimately, you know, prevail?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:32Jesse Michels?

  And beat them in World War II?

• 42:33Speaker 00

  Well, that's the subject that I, you know, I hope we can get into in some level of detail.

• 42:39Speaker 00

  I wonder if, if I should flesh out a couple more things about the engineering at the SCOTA Works before we then come back to this.

• 42:46Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  And, and really dive into it head on. So they were developing these saucer airframes with suction vents and so on and so forth. But these were rocket powered. They had rotating rockets underneath these saucer shaped craft.

• 43:02Jesse Michels?

  Rotating rockets?

• 43:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, like a series of jet, jets, like put in a, in like a fan formation to basically maneuver these saucer shaped craft in various directions. So it was a jet aircraft, in other words. It was a saucer shaped, rocket powered aircraft.

• 43:22Speaker 00

  Then, parallel to this Saucer Airframe project, there was another project, which, when I did my research in Closer Encounters, working from Joseph Farrell and Nick Cook's book, The Hunt for Zero Point, Nick Cook's research. Yeah. And then also his citations of Igor Witkowski's research, Polish researcher who actually went to this site and did some fieldwork there.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  I assumed that this project, based on those researchers, I assumed that this project began like in the early 1940s. I've since been informed by somebody who had relatively direct knowledge, somebody in Serbia, that it went back to 1937. Who's this person?

• 44:05Speaker 00

  I don't want to mention the person's name, but they're a very old person Okay. who was involved with some of these individuals back in the day in Central and Eastern Europe. Interesting. And so, from what I hear from him, it started in 1937. And this was a project to basically develop, originally their aim was to develop a new power source, a power plant,

• 44:29Speaker 00

  involving the electromagnetic rotation of mercury and thorium. Yep. So, I think it's thorium-232, if I remember correctly, mixed with a certain isotope of mercury. And the reason for mixing it with mercury is that mercury is electromagnetically reactive. So if you want to rotate the thorium using electromagnets, mixing the thorium with mercury allows you to rotate the thorium very effectively, create thorium torsion.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  And this device would be continuously powered by alternating current and intermittently shocked with very high voltage direct current. And basically, so what it did was, it would create a kind of plasma fusion from out of which tremendous energy flowed. So it was a overunity device, where you would be putting a certain amount of energy into it, both AC and DC, but then the nuclear reaction of the thorium. Due to electromagnetic torsion would produce more energy than was being put into the device.

• 45:48Jesse Michels?

  Is he high conviction that that's, I mean, so you're saying this sort of, they had like a zero point energy device?

• 45:54Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 45:55Jesse Michels?

  Because that's

• 45:56Speaker 00

  That's the idea. That's what Wachowski, Nick Cook and Joseph Farrell are all saying, looking at the Bell project.

• 46:03Jesse Michels?

  Well, Nick Cook, so yeah, a lot of his stuff came from Wachowski and it's amazing. I mean, he takes the little boat ride and they go underground and you can see the rig where DeGlocke was. So it was definitely a real project and Hans Kommer was a, you know, very real guy. He had, you know, control of Skoda Works, which was kind of the really black world, you know, exciting projects going on as opposed to kind of the white world, you know, Heisenberg nuclear project. But there are all sorts of rumors about DeGlocke. I mean, some people say it was like a time machine. When he talked to Nick Cook, he's, he gets like a, a little uncomfortable is my read, almost as if he knows something that he like, can't really talk about or something.

• 46:48Jesse Michels?

  But he'll, he'll say, I think it was a black world nuclear project.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Over time, I have come to conclude that it was probably a, one of several sites that the Germans, the SS in particular, were using to look into nuclear weapon, nuclear technology.

• 47:08Jesse Michels?

  Which goes towards maybe what you're saying.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Both of those things are true. I think both of those things are true and we can unpack both of them.

• 47:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  So first let's start from the time, the time angle, right?

• 47:16Jesse Michels?

  You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called Qualia senolytic and it's been a major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn out cells that stop dividing, but don't die. They hang around. In your body, draining your energy, clogging up your recovery, and generally making you feel older than you are.

• 47:59Jesse Michels?

  Qualia Senolytic is a first of its kind supplement formulated with nine plant-based compounds designed to help your body naturally eliminate these zombie cells. It's not something you take every day, just two days a month, but it supports your body in aging better at the cellular level. Since I've started taking it, I've felt sharper, lighter, and like my body's resilience has come back online. It's vegan, non-GMO, and grounded in serious research. Experience the science of feeling younger. Go to qualialife.com/jesse for up to 50% off your purchase and use code JESSE, again, that's J-E-S-S-E, for an additional 15% off.

• 48:41Jesse Michels?

  That's Q-U-A-L-I-A-L-I-F-E.com/jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an extra 15% off your purchase. Thanks so much to Qualia for sponsoring this episode.

• 48:56Speaker 00

  So I think, I assume that, or let's say I suspect, that they were looking for an incredible power plant originally.

• 49:08Speaker 00

  But the reason that rig exists is because they realized that this thing levitates when you turn it on. And they had to chain it down. And so this, whatever kind of energy was being generated, also resulted in counterbury. It was, it was a, an anti, in other words, it developed a local gravitational field around itself. Anti-gravity. But the other more interesting thing is that it, they would put plants around this thing and they were turned to mulch. They were like cellularly disrupted. They were disrupted on a cellular level and they would basically disintegrate.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  And supposedly, the entire first team of scientists that worked around this thing died very rapidly and they had to replace them all.

• 49:56Jesse Michels?

  And we do know from Witkowski for a fact that the lead scientist was a guy, it was a guy named Ernest Grauitz, who I believe was an SS medical officer who worked directly under Joseph Mangala. So if you were putting sort of biological specimens, you know, in this sort of torsion field, you know, he would be relevant. And then a guy named Walter Gerlach, who worked at a local university and was extremely interested in gravity. So yeah, sort of to your point.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And Gerlach was involved in like also magnetic engineering and stuff like that.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  Electromagnetic engineering and stuff like that. So, um, but and the people who, I mean, the first group of them eventually died, experienced extreme temporal disorientation. So they would, this is what the, the reports are, you know, from Witkowski and then Farrell,

• 50:50Speaker 00

  that they experienced time flowing at a different rate than people outside the laboratory. And that it became extremely disorienting and eventually cognitively debilitating to them.

• 51:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  So time machine, well, you know, maybe not at that stage, but some kind of a time disruptor.

• 51:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  That it is interfering with the fabric of spacetime.

• 51:11Jesse Michels?

  And for people who think we're crazy, general relativity even would allow for that in a, on a go forward sense. Because if you, you know, create a high density or, you know, you create a high energy environment, there are two ways to basically warp spacetime. It's, you know, mass and energy. And with both, you, you, you would encounter sort of time displacement. And so with this, you know, black hole where you have like, you know, you're going to slow time the closer you get to it. So high voltage experimentation and things of that nature, or, you know, nuclear experiment, you might, you know, incur some sort of time displacement as well.

• 51:45Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 51:46Jesse Michels?

  And, and say you were to like do that in a more.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  And wasn't Townsend Brown obsessed with like time travel?

• 51:51Jesse Michels?

  He was obsessed with time travel. He, like Agnew Bonson, who funded him, was famous for saying that, you know, in high mega, high megavolt range, you know, electricity experiments, very anomalous things would occur, phenomena would occur. And Townsend Brown definitely thought that his work led, would lead you to a working model of time travel and to. Get even more specific with how that might work in the context of de Glaafka. As the rumor was that there was a ceramic chamber internally to protect whatever biological organism was being sort of tested in this environment. And by the way, this is a Nazi regime that definitely experimented on human beings. Twin studies with Joseph Mengele, experimental cell block nine, where they try to cryonically

• 52:35Jesse Michels?

  freeze people, like border science was very in vogue. So you'd put a person in this ceramic chamber, you create a torsion field around it. And basically you'd slow time on the inside to, you know, say 1 one thousandths of a second. And, you know, if a person spent a year inside this chamber, you'd walk out and you'd be a thousand years in the future. And that doesn't break Hawking's chronological conjecture. It works with general relativity. It makes theoretical sense. There are all these engineering issues with it presumably, but what you're saying isn't totally crazy for the audience.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  And unfortunately, I'm sure that they brought concentration camp inmates and put them in there.

• 53:14Jesse Michels?

  I'm sure.

• 53:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. They did that. So, okay, so you have this bell.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  And then you, oh, by the way, an alternate name for the bell was de Beehive, which is interesting because they say the reason they called it that is that it makes the sound of a bunch of bees buzzing together when you turn this thing on. And there have been people who reported that in relation to UFO.

• 53:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Close encounters as well.

• 53:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, we heard a sound in that direction. It was sort of like a buzzing noise. It was a very, you know, it was like a buzzing. It kind of sounded like bees, but it's more like a, yeah, like a machine bee sound. So I'm just very strange.

• 53:53Jesse Michels?

  What was the craft like? So you're, you're in the inside of this thing. What did it look like?

• 53:58Jesse Michels?

  A beehive. So they had this bell and they had this saucer shaped airframe that initially was being, you know, propelled by rockets. They took the rockets out, put the bell in it.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  And there's your flying saucer. It's the integration of the bell with the saucer airframe as the propulsion system for the saucer.

• 54:20Jesse Michels?

  You know when the first public patent for a flying saucer was?

• 54:23Speaker 00

  When?

• 54:24Jesse Michels?

  1937.

• 54:25Speaker 00

  Really?

• 54:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, a guy named Henry Kuanda, who was Romanian, but eventually he was overtaken by the Nazis and started to work with them. And then he went over to Reich Pat and worked with the Americans on the Avrocar project, which is probably a front for some deeper stuff that you're kind of getting into right now. So I find that interesting as well.

• 54:45Speaker 00

  Well, that makes a very good point, too, in so far as scientific breakthroughs never only occur once and never come through only one person. Anyone who studies history of science knows this. And one of the most ignorant points made today to dispute the idea that, let's say, the Nazis could have cracked ZPE back in the 40s and had saucer propulsion is, well, somebody else should have come up with it, you know, like either before or by now or whatever. First of all, the last few decades are full of cases of people coming up with like interesting energy devices and either being bought out or being made to disappear or whatever, you know, meeting some kind of misfortune. But going back to that era, yes, other people arrived at the same thing.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Townsend Brown arrived at something similar. Nikola Tesla had already arrived at something similar decades earlier. Even if he didn't patent it, and you know Tesla was notorious for not properly patenting things. His drawings of the world wireless system are full of UFOs. Wingless, electroggravitically powered craft. They are all over Tesla's drawings. It's not as if the Nazis like came up with this like, you know, uniquely.

• 55:59Jesse Michels?

  And the effects that you're mentioning, people having incurred, you know, time displacement, disorientation.

• 56:06Jesse Michels?

  All the reports of the Philadelphia experiment, which was led by Thomas Townsend Brown, who had a nervous breakdown at that time and had to move out to LA and then started working for Martin Corporation the year that Skunk Works started. All of the same sort of reports of what you're describing, time displacement. I believe people think they might have used thorium in that as well, or maybe it was hexafluoride. I don't remember. But very interesting, the parallels there, too. People said they went back in time, they went forward in time. There are all sorts of fantastical stories about it. Nobody knows quite what happened. It had a very large budget attached to it. So could have been this parallel kind of thing, which often happens in science, as you just said.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Yep, yep. And so now here's the picture. So based on the research that I've done, citing Closer Encounters, it's 1944 when they figure out finally how to integrate, well, to finish work on the bell, at least a prototype of it, and they figure out how to integrate it with the saucer airframe. 1944. So they're already losing the war. The Germans are losing the war. The Allies are marching on them. It's increasingly a losing battle. And Nazi leadership starts to make these statements about how there are these wonder weapons that are being developed. And once the wonder weapons, the Wunderwaffe are finished, then Germany will dramatically turn the tide

• 57:34Speaker 00

  and secure an 11th-hour victory in the war. But it's all dependent on these wonder weapons. And don't worry, they're coming, right? This rhetoric starts to emerge from out of party leadership.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  Otto Skorzeny, who at that time was the master of psychological warfare in special operations, shows up to the Skoda works and supposedly he's given a demonstration of this thing. And he gets obsessed with the idea of using this thing as part of some grand psychological warfare operation.

• 58:07Speaker 00

  And then we have, so this is 1944, right? Fast forward to a year after the end of the war.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  There are these newspaper reports in Spain that Otto Skorzeny is with General Franco on the Mediterranean coast. And they're launching saucer shaped rockets toward America. They didn't know what to call these things at that time, right? They had, they know what rockets were? They were seeing these rocket like things that were saucer shaped, being launched from Spain, the Mediterranean coast, over toward America.

• 58:39Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 58:40Speaker 00

  One year later, what happens? Roswell and other crashes.

• 58:44Jesse Michels?

  Whoa. What are the reports of Franco launching saucer?

• 58:48Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 58:49Jesse Michels?

  With Skorzeny?

• 58:50Speaker 00

  This is in, I think it's in the Saucer Swastikas and Psyops book of Farrell, where he reproduces these Spanish newspaper reports.

• 58:57Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 58:58Speaker 00

  Yes, from 1946, describing the two of them together, with of course, a bunch of military people on the Mediterranean coast of Spain.

• 59:07Jesse Michels?

  And you think that

• 59:08Speaker 00

  Testing these things.

• 59:09Jesse Michels?

  That made its way to Roswell and New Mexico, possibly?

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the picture is a lot darker than that. Here's, here's what I think happened.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  We all know about Operation Paperclip. You've discussed it at length on your show. What fewer people know about is the incorporation of the Galen organization into American intelligence. Right? So remember, the Soviets are marching across all of Eastern Europe,

• 59:39Speaker 00

  taking all this territory that had been part of the Reich.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  There's a whole network of Nazi SS affiliated intelligence operatives in Eastern Europe who continue to be embedded there as the Soviets are marching over the territory.

• 59:57Speaker 00

  So what happens in 1945, when America wins the war?

• 1:00:02Speaker 00

  Immediately, at a strategic level, it's understood that our enemy is now the Soviet Union. And the world is divided at Berlin, right? And if we're going to conduct successful espionage on the Soviets, we would have to build a vast spy network in Eastern Europe. Well, there's already one there. Okay, it's the network that was run by General Reinhard Galen. So our OSS makes a deal with General Galen to absorb his entire Nazi spy network in Eastern Europe as part of the creation of the CIA. Part of the creation of the CIA and of West German intelligence, which was very closely affiliated with the CIA.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  So it's not just the case that we brought over all these Nazi scientists. By we, I mean the CIA. It's that the CIA that brought over all those Nazi scientists and sanitized their records, you know, these paperclip, the files, the sanitized files they created for them, sanitized bios and so forth. The CIA that did that was co-constituted by absorbing an SS spy network. Hmm. Well, think about what kind of culture that's creating in America. Okay. As the National Security Act is passed in 1947. Why is the National Security Act passed in 1947?

• 1:01:20Jesse Michels?

  Let's talk about a guilt-free alternative to alcohol that's perfect for your dry January or any time you want to unwind. Cornbread's organic CBD gummies. These gummies are an absolute lifesaver for my evening routine. They're a natural way to relax, celebrate, or wind down without the hangover. I've cut back a lot on my alcohol consumption over the last few years. For a lot of you trying out dry January or cutting back generally, it's not always easy. But swapping that glass of wine for Cornbread CBD gummies is a total game changer. It's a simple upgrade to your evening routine that leaves you feeling great the next day without sacrificing the fun. Plus, with all-natural ingredients, they're the perfect way to stay balanced. Cornbread Hemp isn't just a product.

• 1:02:04Jesse Michels?

  It's a small way to bring balance into your life. Whether you're journaling, meditating, or simply enjoying some downtime, these gummies elevate your energy. Create the experience without any of the guilt. It's like having a moment of calm in your pocket, ready whenever you need it. Alcohol doesn't have to be the default anymore. Whether you're cutting back for Dry January or just looking for a healthier way to relax, you've got to try Cornbread CBD Gummies. Right now, American Alchemy listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com/jesse and use code JESSIE at checkout. Again, that's cornbreadhemp.com/jesse, code JESSIE. Cornbread Hemp, this is the good life.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Could it have to do with what happened at Roswell? And the need to create a vast, unaccountable, inscrutable security apparatus?

• 1:02:52Jesse Michels?

  It could have been direct reaction. I believe the National Security Act was September of 1947 and Roswell was July of 1947. So a lot of people speculate that.

• 1:03:01Speaker 00

  So, so here's what I think. It's a Hydra.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  The Nazis

• 1:03:09Speaker 00

  created the crisis at Roswell. They staged an event. Now, let me not be misinterpreted, okay? As anyone who listened to our first conversation can see, I'm not by any means suggesting that like grays or whatever are like manufactured by Nazis or what, you know, or that all of the crashes have to do with Nazis. No, no, no, not, not, not by any stretch of the imagination.

• 1:03:32Jesse Michels?

  You think Roswell was accounted for?

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  Specifically Roswell.

• 1:03:35Jesse Michels?

  By Nazis?

• 1:03:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Like, for example, there was a crash that Jacques Vallée gets into in his book Trinity that took place a couple of years or, no, uh, three years earlier. Right after the Trinity detonation, near the test site, something came down.

• 1:03:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was 20 days after the test.

• 1:03:51Speaker 00

  And the beings who were witnessed coming from out of that craft were like praying mantis, uh, like, like, you know, something like between a gray and a praying mantis.

• 1:04:00Jesse Michels?

  Childlike.

• 1:04:00Speaker 00

  Childlike insectoid entities. Those were not, they didn't have anything to do with the Nazis.

• 1:04:06Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:04:06Speaker 07

  They were, uh, bald headed. Uh, slang eyes, teardrop eyes, uh, no ears unless they had a, had a coating of something on it. And I noticed that the, their shoulders were kind of narrow, but had long arms. And what I surprised me that they had four fingers.

• 1:04:29Speaker 08

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:05:00Speaker 09

  Your website can do a lot more than you think. With Base44, describe what you want in your own words and build a website that looks your way and works your way. Let people book with you or buy from you with hosting already included. Then help more people discover your site with built-in search tools, social content, and Google Ads. Build it, get it live, and start sharing. Go to base44.com.

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  So I'm not suggesting that like all these crashes, okay, have to do with Nazi psychological operations, but the particular incident that Roswell, I think, did.

• 1:05:36Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  And-

• 1:05:37Jesse Michels?

  Is that just based on the Franco-Scorzeny-

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  No, I think-

• 1:05:41Jesse Michels?

  Shooting sausage-

• 1:05:41Speaker 00

  No, it's based on the analysis of what was recovered there. And all of it represents cutting-edge German technology.

• 1:05:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:47Speaker 00

  Based on Corso's testimony of the technology recovered there and then looking into a history of cutting-edge German military technological innovations.

• 1:05:55Jesse Michels?

  But 47 is two years after the official surrender of, you know, V, you know, VE Day, surrender of Germany. So why would they-

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  When you look at the instruments of surrender-

• 1:06:04Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:05Speaker 00

  So a number of things are relevant here. Let's go through them one by one. When you look at the instruments of surrender, the German Army, Air Force, Navy, and the German government surrender.

• 1:06:15Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  The SS never surrenders.

• 1:06:17Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  The SS is not included in the German instruments of surrender.

• 1:06:21Jesse Michels?

  Is that because they're inherently the secret police?

• 1:06:23Speaker 00

  It's because they continued. They did not surrender. And-

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  Certain particular SS officers not just continued, but developed high-level intelligence and financial relations with both the United States and the United Kingdom.

• 1:06:37Jesse Michels?

  But wasn't that still under the United States? Like, I think of, you know, Werner von Braun, or a lot of these guys. They're sort of under the US's thumb. You know, ultimately, the US sort of wielded authority and power over them.

• 1:06:50Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:06:51Jesse Michels?

  You don't think so?

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  So, Wen von Braun, who was, by the way, an SS major who used slave labor to build rockets in basically a concentration camp inside of a mountain.

• 1:07:00Jesse Michels?

  And then became responsible for the American space program, essentially, yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  Wen von Braun and his buddies were down in Texas, during the period they were in Texas.

• 1:07:14Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  At one point, they, it was noticed by American, probably the FBI, that they were going in, meeting Nazi counterparts coming from Argentina at border towns in Mexico, and giving them data drops. They were giving classified American military data to their Nazi counterparts coming from Argentina.

• 1:07:39Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:07:39Speaker 00

  In meetings in Mexico. So they were confronted about this by the Americans. Next thing you know, a V-2 rocket goes off course and hits a place in Mexico.

• 1:07:48Jesse Michels?

  No way.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the, the von Braun's people basically intimated to the Americans, you know, if you make working conditions hard for us and keep grilling us like this, you know, rockets are bound to go off course and maybe, you know, a war with Mexico might even start.

• 1:08:07Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  So, they were being hassled by these people in a way that suggests that these Nazis had a lot more control and latitude than the civilian government of the United States wanted to believe was the case. And I think that degree of control is coming from the deep state that was established through the National Security Act of 1947. In other words, the CIA, probably the NSA, and various other apparatuses of our deep state in America were co-constituted by the remnants of the SS.

• 1:08:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:42Speaker 00

  And this isn't unique to America, with like, for example, the absorption of the Galan network into the OSS to create the CIA. It's also the case with the British. So Ian Fleming, who went on to write the Bond novels, was an MI-6 operative. Whose specific mission at the end of the war was to facilitate the evacuation of Martin Bormann to Argentina.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  Martin Bormann was like the financial mastermind of the Reich. And he supposedly died three times. There are three conflicting accounts of this man's death from 1945 to 47.

• 1:09:24Speaker 00

  Next thing you know, he has a joint bank account with Juan Peron in Argentina.

• 1:09:30Speaker 00

  And as late as the 1960s, Martin Bormann is cashing checks written in his own name through Chase, JP Morgan Chase in Buenos Aires. Okay.

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  So the British were involved too. And then this Ian Fleming, MI6 operative winds up becoming a novelist who writes about an organization called Spectre, which is a hidden third power in the world. So the villain in the Bond verse, right? Is a secret, transnational, global organization that's capable of rivaling both the Soviet Union and the civilian government of the United States.

• 1:10:12Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, well, I guess Spectre, they have like German accents, a lot of them, don't they?

• 1:10:18Speaker 00

  It's very obviously the organization which was known to Ian Fleming as Odessa,

• 1:10:26Speaker 00

  initials of which in German stand for Order of Former SS Officers, and which informally was referred to as Die Spinnen or The Spider.

• 1:10:36Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating, really. Well, that's, that's really amazing. That's so interesting. And do you know anything? Cause I believe the inspiration for Ian Fleming, for James Bond was William Stevenson, who is known as Churchill's super spy. He was a sort of Canadian, British, actually, and I had an identical memory was an engineer. And then also was this kind of brilliant super spy strategist. And so was he ever fighting the spider in any sort of way? Cause that wouldn't be like, instantiate this even more.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  That I don't know.

• 1:11:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  That I don't know, but I know that Fleming was involved with them and facilitating. I think that. The leadership of this organization basically was taken over by Martin Bormann. And probably Otto Skorzeny was in the second position. Once these people basically set up shop in Argentina. One of the most interesting things that they did in Argentina was they promised they were going to develop fusion power and fusion nuclear weapons for Juan Peron.

• 1:11:42Speaker 00

  And this guy Ronald Richter, German scientist, set up a fusion project in Bariloche.

• 1:11:51Speaker 00

  This is early 1950s, late 40s into the early 50s. I believe in 1951, the Atomic Energy Agency, the IAEA, International Atomic Energy Agency, went down there to investigate claims that they were developing nuclear fusion. And they found a very, you know, complex facility over there.

• 1:12:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I've been there, actually. I've seen it.

• 1:12:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:16Jesse Michels?

  There's a little island off the coast of Bariloche. It's like this little, yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  So you went to Bariloche to investigate?

• 1:12:22Jesse Michels?

  Not to investigate this. I was just hanging out in Bariloche and I was on a hike. And then somebody told me about this scientist named Ronald Richter, who was this former Nazi who was working on fusion there. And I was like, what? And then I went and it's amazing. And so, yeah. And then there's a civilian nuclear grid in Bariloche as well. So who knows if there is some sort of overlap there?

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  Well, Argentina later almost developed nuclear weapons, later on in 1970s. But here's the interesting thing is that he promised to develop these nuclear weapon, fusion weapons for Peron, and he never did, Ronald Richter. And moreover, when the IAEA people went down there and investigated, they said, this doesn't look like any fusion that we understand. We don't know what this guy's doing down here. It's incredibly energy intensive, but it doesn't look like any kind of fusion that we understand. Okay. Here's where it gets really dark and goes to your question of like, if they had all this technology, meaning the Nazis, why didn't they use it to win the war? And how is it that we won the war and so on and so forth, right? Yeah.

• 1:13:26Speaker 00

  There are some eyewitness reports of two German nuclear weapons tests being conducted between late 1944 and early 1945. One in the Baltic Sea where a pilot was flying over the Baltic Sea and he saw an bright, bright light that almost blinded him and an explosion where there were like multicolored, like rainbow colored lights, like fizzling inside the explosion, which is a telltale sign of a nuclear fission explosion. When you see one with your naked eye in person, it doesn't register on camera very well,

• 1:14:06Speaker 00

  but it's like the rest of the fissile material kind of like reacting inside the mushroom cloud. And he said like it created a huge pressure wave he saw from his airplane and this blinding flash of light and these weird like multicolored reaction. And then there's a second eyewitness account of what appears to be a nuclear test near the Thuringian forest, which I think they said like cut out power in a nearby town or something like this, like, you know, the EMP effect of it.

• 1:14:37Speaker 00

  So again, this is, this is research that's been done by two people. One is a guy, weird name, Plimpton Hydrick, I think. Plymouth, or is it Plymouth? I got it wrong when we spoke on the phone. It's actually Plimpton, I think, Hydrick. Okay. A book called Critical Mass. Okay. It's a whole study of the Nazi nuclear program and its connection to the United States and to the bombs we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which we'll come to in a minute. And then the second source is Farrell's deeper research on Plimpton Heidrick's claims, and additional research that he did into Nazi nuclear weapons. And basically, the picture that emerges is this, that the uranium enrichment program

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  that Heisenberg was running was a red herring. That it was a, basically, cover and diversionary tactic to throw off the Allies, who successfully defeated that program. They sent like, a team of like Nordic skiers or something to like, take out the heavy water plant and, so they derailed that project. But that there was a deeper black project to develop nuclear weapons using electromagnetic isotope separation, which is something that later was used at Oak Ridge in the United States. And that the Germans were using electromagnetic isotope separation in a more secret, parallel track program that did succeed in developing fission weapons.

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  Now, Plimpton Heidrick, in his book, argues, he makes this case, that at Trinity, they did not, the records show that they did-

• 1:16:17Jesse Michels?

  When you say electromagnetic isotope separation, like, just like centrifuge? Or like-

• 1:16:22Speaker 00

  No, something other than the kind of centrifuge technology that we're used to. And I, you know, I'm not a physicist, I don't know what it is. And probably they were also using laser isotope enrichment, because the Nazis developed the laser, I think, in part for this purpose of isotope enrichment. And, which by the way, just very brief side note, to all those people, like, investigating the Iranian nuclear program right now, they are not using centrifuge enrichment for the nuclear weapons. Iran has been using laser isotope enrichment, and I hope that wherever the hell it is they're conducting laser isotope enrichment, that this regime doesn't have an unacknowledged

• 1:17:07Speaker 00

  stockpile of highly enriched uranium. In any case, be that as it may, aside, the Shah bought laser isotope enrichment technology- From Switzerland in nineteen seventy.

• 1:17:16Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:17:17Speaker 00

  Anyway, so, so all this is about, you know, that we're gonna check out the centrifuges. That's not where they're doing.

• 1:17:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  But, okay, how is it relevant? It's, they learn from the Nazis. The Nazis had a fake program, which was a diversionary tactic. And then there was a real, deeper black program.

• 1:17:31Jesse Michels?

  Why would you use? Cause Heisenberg was so smart. I mean, he was responsible for, you know, understanding the mathematical underpinnings behind quantum leaps. You know, electrons and electron shells and orbits and, uh, you know, the uncertainty.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

  He also wrote this book, Physics and Philosophy, which is an absolutely masterful text.

• 1:17:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  That quotes Heraclitus and shows how Heraclitus was like a precursor to quantum theory and

• 1:17:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  Intuited basically, quantum theory is a fantastic, brilliant guy.

• 1:17:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and it's really, it's a trippy book, that book, because he talks about all sorts of issues in quantum mechanics and interpretations that, you know, the Copenhagen School is kind of wrestling with, that we now kind of paint over with this broad brush around consciousness. And he really like muses in this deep way that consciousness might play a part in wave function collapse and that sort of thing. And now it's just, you know, oh, you know, it's, it's all, it's, you know, it's, it's the quantum detector or whatever does, you know,

• 1:18:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Jesse Michels?

  Wave, the wave function collapse is when particles collide or whatever, but.

• 1:18:29Speaker 00

  So why would you, why would you waste?

• 1:18:31Jesse Michels?

  Why would you waste a guy like that, a brain like that?

• 1:18:34Speaker 00

  Because if you want the Allies to believe that this is your nuclear program, you're gonna have to put as your front man, the guy that the Allies would expect to be running the Nazi nuclear program.

• 1:18:47Jesse Michels?

  What's interesting about him is he and all the people on his nuclear program were captured, like you said, and they were put, I believe, in the English countryside and they, the whole house was wiretapped. And this is a part of the also program, this, you know, nuclear tech retrieval program. And they were just listening, you know, what, what are they gonna say? Maybe they, you know, give away some trade secrets. And they talk about feeling regret around working on the nuclear program and also gratitude that their sort of heavy water engine never quite worked out, which was, I guess they were using deuterium, you know, in their approach, so.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  I thought you were gonna say something else, because the other thing I've heard about that, I've heard this story.

• 1:19:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a transcript. It's amazing.

• 1:19:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:29Jesse Michels?

  Read it up.

• 1:19:30Speaker 00

  But here's an other interesting thing about that.

• 1:19:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Is that when the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

• 1:19:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Speaker 00

  They overheard these guys, they have that, you know, transcript. Of how immediately Heisenberg and his people calculated the amount of fissile material used. Really? Yeah, so it was as if they knew, like, they could reverse engineer from, you know, the scale of the explosion, whatever, what kind of bomb produced. Whoa. Which, which implies a completed nuclear weapon. Or knowledgeable one. But in any case, that's not. Either that, or they're the most competent guys, which means they shouldn't be on the cover program. I wouldn't rest, I wouldn't rest anything on that. But here's, here's the interesting point I was making in relation to the, the Plimpton Heidrich's research. Yeah. Is that he says that there's records showing the amount of fissile material at

• 1:20:19Speaker 00

  Trinity and that it wasn't anywhere close to being able to, um, basically, uh, complete Fat Man and Little Boy.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  And that in 1945, a deal was made with the Nazis to transfer by submarine the fissile material that went into the bombs that we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That the Trinity project was completed with Nazi highly enriched uranium and that it was transferred in an agreement that we made with the SS. Wow. Okay. You're high conviction in that. Well, this is what he argues and he's done, you know, his book is Critical Mass. Yep. Okay. And he lays out a lot, a huge argument for this.

• 1:21:04Speaker 00

  Now, here's the problem.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  If we got our uranium from them, and by the way, he also makes the argument that the engineering of the plutonium bomb was completed with Nazi, Nazi assistance. Okay. So if we got our, uh, you know, uranium and additional technical expertise for completing our nuclear weapons from the Nazis, and if there are two reports of Nazi successful nuclear tests in 44 into 45. Yep. Why weren't these weapons used by the Nazis? It's a great question, why? There are a couple of different answers and they're both really disturbing. Okay.

• 1:21:47Speaker 00

  Let me start, I don't know which one is more disturbing. Okay, but let, okay. So if Ronald Richter is working on fusion in Argentina in 1950.

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  Is it possible, and the Nazis had, let's say, they've developed this bell that involves electromagnetic torsion of thorium.

• 1:22:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:07Speaker 00

  And some kind of a plasma fusion that takes place inside of this device. Is it possible the Nazis figured out some other kind of nuclear reaction, weaponizable nuclear reaction, besides fission? And is that related to why Ronald Richter was promising fusion bombs to Juan Peron, which he never delivered?

• 1:22:32Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. I didn't know if he was promising fusion bombs.

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was promising nuclear weapons, and this is why the IAA went down there.

• 1:22:38Jesse Michels?

  Fusion bombs.

• 1:22:39Speaker 00

  Well, okay, he's working on fusion, and he's promising nuclear bombs to Peron. So we may assume from those two data points that he's promising fusion bombs. Now, we only developed fusion bombs.

• 1:22:52Jesse Michels?

  And hydrogen bombs are fusion bombs, right?

• 1:22:54Speaker 00

  Exactly. But here's the interesting thing, is that we developed hydrogen fusion bombs in the 50s, and this is 1950, Ronald Richter's down there. So it's relatively the same ballpark timeframe.

• 1:23:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Edward Teller and Ulam, that design was 52.

• 1:23:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, but here's the thing, our hydrogen bombs use a fission trigger to create a fusion reaction. What if the Nazis figured out how to create a fusion reaction without a fission trigger? It would be extremely useful, because the radioactivity of a nuclear explosion comes from the fission trigger. The neutron bombardment that, well, first of all, you know, immediately disrupts like a whole, you know, our whole organism, and then also irradiates all the fallout that comes down on people. That neutron bombardment is from the fission reaction, not from the fusion. So if you could create a fusion reaction without a fission trigger,

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  you'd have a clean nuclear bomb, an extremely high explosive force, but no radioactivity, so your troops could move into that area and occupy it immediately.

• 1:24:01Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:24:01Speaker 00

  You see?

• 1:24:02Jesse Michels?

  There'd be no radioactivity.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  No radioactivity. Straight, it's the opposite of a neutron bomb. So a neutron bomb is, you know, engineered to maximize neutron bombardment. This is an a-neutronic fusion bomb.

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  If the Nazis developed that in 1944 to 45, atom bombs would be like matches for them. It's child's play. So they would be willing to trade that for something else, like maybe the, you know, mass assimilation and, um, what do you call it? Amnesty for Nazi scientists, like maybe incorporation of their entire SS spy network in Eastern Europe into the CIA. Like perhaps the transfer of a huge amount of funds, wartime loot to Argentina and other places, that they made a deal and gave the matches to the Americans. They kept the fusion bombs for themselves.

• 1:24:55Jesse Michels?

  You don't think they'd just vaporize large swaths of American territory and try to win?

• 1:24:59Speaker 00

  No. Now, this gives me, this comes to the second reason.

• 1:25:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:03Speaker 00

  Which is even more disturbing.

• 1:25:04Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  And I almost apologize for how disturbing this is.

• 1:25:11Jesse Michels?

  No.

• 1:25:12Speaker 00

  But people need to really think about this because I think we're still inside this spider's web and it's responsible for a lot of the deception, misdirection around the disclosure conversation today.

• 1:25:24Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:25:25Speaker 00

  So you have to take seriously this claim on the part of the Nazi leadership that they wanted a thousand-year Reich. Okay?

• 1:25:36Speaker 00

  A thousand-year imperium is no joke. Americans have a very hard time with this because this country was born yesterday in historical terms. Okay? There are other people who are capable of grasping this more effectively. Let me give you an example and trust me, it's worth setting it up like this.

• 1:25:54Jesse Michels?

  And for context for the audience, real quick, Third Reich is called that because I believe it was the Roman Empire, then the Holy Roman Empire, and they were supposed to be the third instantiation.

• 1:26:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. So they want this thousand-year Reich. Okay, well, who thinks like that? We, in Iran, uh, there was a dynasty that's often misnamed the Second Persian Empire. Actually, they weren't Persians, they were Scythians, the Parthian Empire of Iran. Okay? It lasted for 400 years. The Parthian Empire of Iran was the principal rival of Rome. So the two superpowers in the world at that time were the Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire of Iran. And at that time, the country was called Arianah Hashatrah. Arian Imperium. That was the official name of the Parthian government. It was Arian Imperium. And then Arianah gets shortened to Iran in Middle Persian.

• 1:26:46Speaker 00

  So these Parthians ruled Iran and successfully fought the Romans, usually to a stalemate, for 400 years. Then they get overthrown in a coup by these guys called the Sassanids, the Sassanid Persians, and they establish their own empire. But the Parthian elite continued to be the backbone of the Sassanid state. The feudal houses, the Parthian feudal houses, served the Sassanid state and protected it the way like in Game of Thrones. You have all the main houses in Game of Thrones and they're like serving, what's that place, you know, the main, the capital, whatever it is, right? In Game of Thrones, where is that place? I forget. And the Lannisters are there and like all the other feudal houses are serving them, right?

• 1:27:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  So get this, the Parthians ruled Iran for 400 years directly.

• 1:27:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:35Speaker 00

  They continued to rule Iran secretly for another 400 years, under the Sassanids. They're the backbone of the Sassanid state. In the end, the conflict, make a very long story short, the conflict they had with the Sassanids resulted in the collapse of Iran to Islam. The state security of Iran and the conquest of the Persian Empire by the Arab Muslim armies was on account of, basically, the tension between the Sassanids and these feudal lords. So Iran then is subsumed by Islam for a couple hundred years. Around about 850, 900, an Iranian renaissance begins, which is misnamed often the Islamic Golden Age. 90% of the people who contributed to it, in the arts and sciences, were Iranians.

• 1:28:17Speaker 00

  Anyway, the Parthians are also the patrons of this. So they become like the Medici's. They become the patrons of an Iranian renaissance for another 300 years, between like 900, between 900 and 1100. So these people ruled Iran directly for 400 years, ruled Iran indirectly for another 400 years, 800 years. And then for another 300 years, they patroned an Iranian renaissance, 1100 years, for over a thousand years. These feudal families had a coherent political vision. That's how you need to think when you want a thousand-year Reich, okay? So if the Nazis in the modern world wanna set up a thousand-year imperium,

• 1:29:02Speaker 00

  it's gonna require a little bit of preparation. Investing a century in psychological warfare and social engineering to set up your thousand-year reich is not at all an unreasonable investment. And so my hypothesis is that from 1945 until 2045, we are in a period of preparation involving horrendous psychological warfare and social engineering by a deeply entrenched fascist elite. Let's not call them Nazis anymore because they're really not nationalists. A deeply entrenched fascist elite that controls the American deep state.

• 1:29:45Speaker 00

  So that's the second answer to why did they not win the war? No, they won the war. It's just you have to rethink what the war is. The war is a Weltanschauungs-Krieg. It's a worldview war. And that doesn't mean what Americans think it does. So like when we went into Germany in 1945, the American military went in there. They translated Weltanschauungs-Krieg into psychological warfare. And then later it became, you know, the Battle for Hearts and Minds. Right? Psychological Operations, PSYOPS, or Psychological Warfare. That's not what Weltanschauungs-Krieg means. It means a war over the constitution of the world from out of human consciousness on a social level.

• 1:30:28Speaker 00

  And it goes back to German thinkers like Schelling, Friedrich Schelling. And also ultimately Nietzsche, definitely Nietzsche's idea of perspectival conflict. That there's no unified God's eye perspective on the world. There is, of course, you know, God is dead, right? I mean Nietzsche is the ultimate deconstructor of a theistic monistic ontology. So there's no God to have a perspective on the whole world. And there's nothing like a God's eye perspective even in science. And science is always conditioned by culture and by politics. So ontologically, the world is...

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  Pluralistic. I mean, William James also made this point. He wrote a whole book called A Pluralistic Universe, which if you look at the ontology of William James's radical empiricism in his book, A Pluralistic Universe, it almost completely maps onto Nietzsche's perspectival ontology. And I compared the two explicitly in Prometheus and Atlas. So you have this conflict of perspectives that brings about the constitution of what we consider to be the world. Heidegger, beginning in Being and Time and going into his writings on technology, he calls this the worldhood of the world. What makes a world of meaning for any people

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  is not the same as how the warp and weft of meaning is brought together by another people. So there is a conflict of worlds over the earth. Different worlds constituted by, let's say, what Jung might call the collective unconscious of a particular people. And by the way, this is a point that's often, I don't know whether it's overlooked or whether it's deliberately distorted in readings of Jung, is that Jung did not believe in a single collective unconscious. Jung believed in a racially differentiated collective unconscious. And he's getting that idea from Hegel. And Hegel's philosophy of mind, Hegel talks about the spirit of different races and how the spirit of different... It sounds crazy, but Hegel even thinks

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  that the spirit of different races can shape the world geologically. Anyway, I don't know that Jung would certainly take it that far, but Jung kind of got that idea from him and he developed it to where like, for example, he's predicted that the spirit of Voughton would erupt from out of the collective unconscious of the German people. And it did, right? In the form of the rise of the Nazis in the Second World War. So Heidegger is saying that there's a war, and very much lines up again with Nietzsche, there's a war of different worlds over the earth.

• 1:33:10Speaker 00

  So World War II is not what we think it is. First of all, all the deep Nazi thinkers did not see any difference between World War I and World War II. If you read, for example, Carl Schmidt, you see this. You read Heidegger, you see this. They say, "It's just the world war." And the world war, the Great War, never ended for us. The Treaty of Versailles was imposed on them. You know, they considered themselves to be like in a perpetual state of war for the world. And so you have to understand the term "world war" in a different way. It's a Weltanschaumskrieg. It's a war over the way that the world is going to show itself, is going to come into presence, is going to manifest.

• 1:33:50Speaker 00

  It's a certain understanding of what I've called in my writings phenomenal authorization, where I've drawn a connection between three different ideas: authorship, authority, and authorization. And tried to explain how phenomena are authored and authorized in how they can take shape. And that that's the most fundamental form of sovereignty, that real authority is not like the authority of a civilian government that's elected or some bureaucracy. It's who has the authority to shape phenomena into a meaningful world at a fundamental level.

• 1:34:35Speaker 00

  And the people who developed, what Otto Skorzeny was the master of in Germany, namely Weltanschaumskrieg, they understood this.

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  So it's not bizarre for these people to engage in a century of social engineering to set up then what they expect would be a thousand-year imperium. If they had dropped whatever few nuclear weapons they had in 1944 on American cities, I can tell you exactly what the result would have been. Total war against the German people on the part of America. At the same time as they're still fighting the Soviet Union, right? Who actually was the principal enemy of Nazi Germany or responsible for most of the deaths in Europe. The Soviets are really the ones who defeated the Germans, to be honest, okay? And so they've got Stalin coming at them from one direction.

• 1:35:27Speaker 00

  Now they're dropping nukes on their fellow Germanic, you know, fellow European Americans. Now they're gonna get the Americans, you know, interested in total war to annihilate them. Americans were also developing nuclear weapons. Best case scenario, I guarantee you, Jesse, they would not have ruled the world for more than two generations. Even if they had succeeded in militarily defeating America, there would have been a massive insurgency against them, the amount of arms that Americans possess personally, right? And then the amount of communist revolutionary fervor in Europe, being backed by the Soviet Union. They would have faced a massive insurgency.

• 1:36:11Jesse Michels?

  But is the implication that there's some sort of Nazi sleeper cell undergirding American politics today?

• 1:36:18Speaker 00

  Fascist is a better way to put it.

• 1:36:20Jesse Michels?

  Fascist?

• 1:36:21Speaker 00

  Fascist, because not, again, and now here's another point, the neo-Nazis hate this. These people aren't nationalists. So Nazism is no, Martin Bormann is not a nationalist. Otto Skorzeny is not a nationalist. These people create, first of all, to begin with, they weren't nationalists. They were looking for a kind of global imperium, okay? They used nationalism and they used crass populism to create a power base for themselves. But you can see from how they're operating, especially after the war, from forty-five onward, that they're very much internationalists. They have a global vision. So, but they're fascists. And do I think that there's a fascist underbelly to America? Absolutely. I think that's the deepest substrate in the deep state that controls these black projects is absolutely fascist.

• 1:37:07Speaker 00

  Now.

• 1:37:08Jesse Michels?

  But but it was it was a nationalist movement. I mean, you had Wagner was very popular.

• 1:37:13Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 1:37:14Jesse Michels?

  Otto von Bismarck.

• 1:37:15Speaker 00

  Look.

• 1:37:15Jesse Michels?

  And you had this resuscitation of all this kind of German national pride, free.

• 1:37:19Speaker 00

  Remember what we were saying about monumental history earlier?

• 1:37:21Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:22Speaker 00

  You need to monumentalize history.

• 1:37:24Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:24Speaker 00

  If you want a substantive forward development.

• 1:37:28Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:28Speaker 00

  So if you want to create a thousand year Reich. You need a lot of cultural material for that. But I would hardly say that at least among the leadership of this movement, that they were sort of like xenophobically German. No, they they loved all kind of European civilizational heritage and they were interested in the Aryan, you know, heritage of places like Iran and India as well. They even sent people to Tibet to like get the Tibetan scriptures.

• 1:37:54Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:55Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:37:56Jesse Michels?

  They sent them to Mount Kailash and they were looking for the Holy Grail.

• 1:37:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, they were interested. They had a very broad and deep conception of what they considered the Aryan heritage.

• 1:38:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:06Speaker 00

  It was not nationalistically German. They used the German nationalism to rile up masses and build a power base.

• 1:38:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  So.

• 1:38:14Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there was some Nazi non-human intelligence or alien connection going? I mean, this guy Peter Labenda, for example, who writes a book called The Unholy Alliance, where he talks about, we talked about last time, Nordic alien beings. Do you think that there was some sort of alliance between them and and the Nazis? Because I guess that sounds quacky, but I'm almost even more likely to believe that than the idea that the Nazis writ large just threw their lot in with the US and sort of stopped fighting and made some, you know, really long time horizon calculated decision to perpetuate the Third Reich through

• 1:38:57Jesse Michels?

  some sort of sober sub Rosa ruling of their greatest adversary. Like I just.

• 1:39:02Speaker 00

  No, I agree with you. No, I agree with you.

• 1:39:04Jesse Michels?

  The the the regime that would do that wouldn't fail and and fight a two-front war with with Russia and then, you know, destroy themselves, right?

• 1:39:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, they're not mutually exclusive.

• 1:39:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:39:15Speaker 00

  Do I think that they were in contact on some level with people?

• 1:39:23Speaker 00

  Who they knew would in some way affirm and complete this project they were taking a great risk to forward. Yes, I think so. And there we need to look at these claims about the Vril Society and the Thul Society. So there are these claims that there was a group of mediums, I think mostly women, who were engaging in telepathic communication with basically a group of supermen. And that the the supermen were sort of helping these occultists with both like geopolitical machinations and scientific breakthroughs. I haven't been

• 1:40:05Speaker 00

  able to find any evidence of an independently existing Vril Society. But there was a Thul Society. And the concept of Vril was very important to the Thul Society. Vril is this idea that Sir Edward Bulwer Litten wrote a book about in 1871, I believe.

• 1:40:23Jesse Michels?

  The Coming Race.

• 1:40:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And by the way, this guy's biography is insane. You should

• 1:40:27Jesse Michels?

  What's his deal?

• 1:40:28Speaker 00

  Look at Edward Bulwer Litten. At one point, he was offered the Crown of Greece, and he declined it.

• 1:40:33Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:40:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, they offered it. He was a British gentleman.

• 1:40:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Speaker 00

  British aristocrat, super aristocrat.

• 1:40:38Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:38Speaker 00

  Extremely erudite guy, obviously, deep into the occult.

• 1:40:41Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:40:42Speaker 00

  And traveled around a lot. And at one point, they wanted to make him King of Greece. And he was like, no, man, I don't want the trouble.

• 1:40:46Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:40:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:48Jesse Michels?

  And this book he wrote, The Coming Race, Hitler was, I think, really into.

• 1:40:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:40:52Jesse Michels?

  And it was this book about like, an underground civilization or something? Was this based on any sort of empirical evidence from him, you know, in his journeys or whatever? Did he happen upon these people or something?

• 1:41:04Speaker 00

  One can speculate, right?

• 1:41:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Speaker 00

  One can speculate that that might have been the case. But in any case, the Thul Society took all this very seriously.

• 1:41:13Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:41:13Speaker 00

  And the Thul Society, oddly enough, it was founded by this guy, Baron Rudolf von Svatendorf, who was initiated in Kurdistan of all places.

• 1:41:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:23Speaker 00

  He was initiated into an ancient Iranian Kurdish order called Ahlak, who are basically like surviving Mithraists. Anyway, long story short, he comes back from Kurdistan.

• 1:41:37Speaker 00

  Through Turkey. And he creates the Thule Gazal Shaft. Now, what is Thule? Thule is the Germanic conception of Atlantis. It's an island continent where a super civilization existed in vast antiquity, which these people, the Thule Gazal Shaft, believed were the progenitors of the Aryan race. And by the way, they didn't make this up. Helena Blavatsky has this in her philosophical writings that the Aryan race came from Atlantis. I mean, this is one of the claims that, you know, she makes. And I believe that on some level Steiner accepted it also. Although Steiner had a much more metaphysical, transcendental interpretation of what Atlantis was.

• 1:42:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, he, I mean, I think he believed it existed. And then Rudolf Hess, who was in Hitler's inner circle, was a huge fan of Rudolf Steiner as well.

• 1:42:23Speaker 00

  Yes, and then the Nazis eventually considered Steiner to be their principal adversary, which is saying a lot, because when you consider somebody your nemesis, it means that in a way, actually, you're fighting over the same thing.

• 1:42:32Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:42:33Speaker 00

  You're fighting over this. Oh, they burned down the Gothenaum. The Nazis burned down the first Gothenaum, because they thought that anthroposophy could really become a rival to Nazism and to their vision for Europe and the destiny of the world and so on and so forth. Which, you know, it says a lot. In any case,

• 1:42:50Speaker 00

  the Thule society was obsessed with Atlantis and excavating the Atlantean heritage of the Aryans, including the Germans, and essentially of creating a new Atlantis.

• 1:43:04Speaker 00

  Now, where would this island continent be? Which, by the way, they associate, the Germans associated it with ice and a frozen over place. And some Germans believed that it was the same place as Hyperborea. Some of them did. So if you look back at Plato's Timaeus and Critias

• 1:43:24Speaker 00

  and, you know, read every one of the clues he gives us about where Atlantis was located.

• 1:43:29Speaker 00

  He says it is an island continent, the size of Libya and Asia combined, which in the geography of the Greeks of his time, meant a landmass the size of the Persian Empire.

• 1:43:42Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:43Speaker 00

  That's a big island.

• 1:43:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:45Speaker 00

  Okay, that's like the size of the continental United States.

• 1:43:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:48Speaker 00

  Okay. Then he says that it's in the world ocean.

• 1:43:53Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:54Speaker 00

  And that from Atlantis, you can, by going to Atlantis, you can cross over from one side of the world to the other side of the world.

• 1:44:02Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:44:03Speaker 00

  And it's in the world ocean.

• 1:44:04Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:44:05Speaker 00

  Well, we have a world ocean. It's where the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and the Indian Ocean meet.

• 1:44:09Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 1:44:10Speaker 00

  In the coastline of Antarctica.

• 1:44:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:12Speaker 00

  Okay. And it is an island the size of Libya and Asia combined, as he put it, or size of the continental United States. And you can get to the other side of the world from it. You island hop through Antarctica. You can get from Africa to South America or, you know.

• 1:44:27Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:44:28Speaker 00

  And he also says that there's huge mountain ranges there.

• 1:44:33Speaker 00

  So, and then one other thing.

• 1:44:35Jesse Michels?

  And it was destroyed by a great flood. And it might have had sort of very livable conditions pre-younger dryas period and Ice Age, you know, à la Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson's work. Um, and so literally, you know, Atlantis was destroyed in this great flood. And it's dated back, they say this was 9,000, in that Mythos festival, Temes and Cretaeus, that's 600 B.C. And they say this was 9,000 years ago, and that's 9,600 B.C., which is literally the end of the Ice Age and this flood, which ended the Ice Age. It was called Meltwater Pulse 1B, so.

• 1:45:12Speaker 00

  Yes, and I think the mechanism for that, so the dates match perfectly.

• 1:45:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:15Speaker 00

  And I think the mechanism for that was convincingly argued by Charles Hapgood.

• 1:45:20Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:45:21Speaker 00

  Charles Hapgood was a scientist who worked to think it, uh, no, he might have been a historian, actually. He worked at Boston University, I believe. But he also was working on contract for the CIA.

• 1:45:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:45:34Speaker 00

  And he came up with this theory called Earth Crustal Displacement, where.

• 1:45:41Speaker 00

  Periodically, this is to really dumb it down, but periodically, the Earth would become top-heavy due to glaciation. And this would cause the crust of the Earth to slip over the mantle by a few thousand kilometers. And that pulls the ice out of the polar regions, and the ice then precipitously melts. Okay, so this notion that North America was covered by ice during the Ice Age, and that North America was where it currently is, but it was just covered by ice, is fallacious, according to Hapgood.

• 1:46:25Speaker 00

  It's that the North Pole was where Hudson Bay is today. And the reason North America was glaciated was because it was a lot closer to the North Pole. A lot more of it was closer to the North Pole. And by the same token, at that time, Antarctica was where Argentina would be today. So Atlantis would have had the climate of contemporary Argentina.

• 1:46:47Jesse Michels?

  And I believe in the Piraeus map, which was found in Turkey. That's exactly what it looks like. It looks like Antarctica has sort of shifted, and this is supposed to be some sort of, you know, pre-Ice Age map.

• 1:46:59Speaker 00

  Not only that, those maps, at least one of them, I don't remember whether it's the Piraeus or the Orontius-Feneus map, but one of them shows that Antarctica actually consists of two islands that are very close together. And this is, in fact, the case. Our sub-glacial topography has shown that it's not one landmass. It's two islands that are very close together.

• 1:47:21Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:47:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, so clearly-

• 1:47:24Jesse Michels?

  That also lends to its accuracy.

• 1:47:26Speaker 00

  Totally, and so whoever knew, whoever made those maps originally, and they may have been copied in the Library of Alexandria, whoever made the initial maps that have correct longitude and latitude on them, also, which we didn't have at that time-

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  Also, the conspiracy about Piraeus is that the map looks like it shows the curvature of the Earth.

• 1:47:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:47:45Jesse Michels?

  And this is well before Columbus.

• 1:47:47Speaker 00

  Yes, so I think that those were copied from Atlantean maps at some point. Copied and recopied many times. Anyway, so the Nazis are looking for Atlantis, the Thule Gazelle Schafftis, right? The Thule Society. And Thule is their Atlantis. And by the way, one little interesting point there is that- The Mayans have, you know, the Mayans have legends of Atlantis. They have legends of a great island, a great island continent that was decimated by a flood and that its survivors took refuge there. There is this legend among the Mayans, which I believe Graham Hancock, among others, has cited in his work.

• 1:48:28Speaker 00

  And they have these two words that they use for that place. One is Atlant and the other is Tulan. Tulan sounds a lot like Tull. Tulan, right? Tulan, Atlant. So it could be the same word even ultimately, or derived from the same word. Anyway.

• 1:48:50Speaker 00

  Guess what the Nazis wind up doing in 1937, 38? Deutsche Antarctic Expedition. They send a ton of personnel down there. They even fly over the Trans Antarctic Mountains and drop swastika flags all over the landscape with like spears.

• 1:49:10Jesse Michels?

  Why do you, why do you think they went?

• 1:49:12Speaker 00

  Because they figured out that this is Tull, that this is Atlantis.

• 1:49:16Jesse Michels?

  The nominal reason too, which is so prima facie, just absurd, is I think they said that they were going because of butter rations and like Antarctica was, you know, a source of margarine or something.

• 1:49:27Speaker 00

  Or the penguins.

• 1:49:28Jesse Michels?

  They needed to go explore it.

• 1:49:29Speaker 00

  Penguins.

• 1:49:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:49:30Speaker 00

  Hess and the Penguins.

• 1:49:31Jesse Michels?

  It's not even like a charismatic cover story. Like it's, you know, that seems so patently ridiculous.

• 1:49:36Speaker 00

  You know, there's a book called Hess and the Penguins.

• 1:49:38Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I didn't know that. Hess and the Penguin.

• 1:49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so get this.

• 1:49:41Jesse Michels?

  Like Herman Hess?

• 1:49:42Speaker 00

  No. So one of the main guys they sent to Antarctica is Rudolf Hess.

• 1:49:48Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Rudolf Hess.

• 1:49:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And this Rudolf Hess who they sent to Antarctica, a few years later, takes a secret unauthorized flight out of Germany, lands in Britain in a field.

• 1:50:07Speaker 00

  Is met by British officers. And he says, I have orders to meet with Winston Churchill. What? And they go to Churchill and they say, sir, Hess is here. Like, you know, he flew up on an authorized flight here. And Churchill said, I don't want to see him. Throw him in prison. We're going to interrogate him. So then they interrogate Hess and he says, he had orders to secretly come to Britain and make a, not just a peace overture, but an alliance proposal to 30 members of the British Parliament, who were favorable toward Hitler. So at this point, when Hess had made this flight,

• 1:50:50Speaker 00

  I believe Hitler had made three peace offers to the British, including an offer to ally together and to have basically the British Royal Navy and the Nazis become collaborators on a global scale. And so this was the final peace offering before the outbreak of hostilities. And who did they send? The guy who was in Antarctica. What's the significance? Well, then here's the other thing. After the war, he was, he remained in prison. They kept him in prison. So this guy didn't participate in the Battle of World War II. He was put in prison before hostilities break out with the British. They keep him in prison and then they send him to West Germany, where he winds up imprisoned to the day he dies

• 1:51:34Speaker 00

  and no one's allowed to talk to him. They quarantine him. Rudolf Hess. Number one, why keep him in prison? What did he do? I mean, you know, he went to Antarctica, came back, tried to make peace with the British. This guy wasn't involved in the hostilities. Why, why even put him in prison? Number two, why quarantine him? And not allow people to talk to him? And keep him there until the day he dies? What did Hess know? What did he see in Antarctica? What did he want to tell the British?

• 1:52:03Speaker 00

  That's an interesting question. What do you think? About Atlantis? You think so? Yeah, I think that they got there and they they came there with the express purpose of excavating what is there, what they believe to be there, and I think they found it. And there's a very interesting story that was told to Linda Moulton Howe by a Navy SEAL who claimed to have been tasked with a mission in Antarctica. And he said that not far from McMurdo, they discovered a huge, like, like, I don't want to make up a number, it was very large, a black stone octagonal, highly polished black

• 1:52:48Speaker 00

  stone octagonal structure, sticking out like 18 feet above the ice. And they found the doorway to this thing, and the doorway was like 20 feet by like 20 feet, and it slid open to reveal this octagonal huge chamber that was illuminated, it wasn't clear from what light source, with this pale greenish hue. And they started to investigate and they found that this complex consisted of one octagon underneath another. Oh, very important point. The door to the facility had a Schwarze Sonne inscribed on it, etched perfectly into this polished black stone.

• 1:53:33Speaker 00

  What is that? Was the Black Sun symbol that the SS had put on the floor of the main meeting hall in Vevesburg Castle, where the highest order of SS Knights would meet, led by Himmler. So that same symbol, according to this Navy SEAL, was on the door to this octagonal facility. And they went and explored it, and they said it was octagon underneath octagon, until the last lower level of it.

• 1:53:58Speaker 00

  Opened into antediluvian ruins into like vastly ancient megalithic structures that were trapped by the ice, deep underneath the ice. So it's like something that was built there to give access to this, you know, these, I don't know, the ruins of Atlantis, whatever. And I think the Navy SEAL also said that they found another way to get down there to the bottom of this, you know, pancake octagonal structure by taking submarines under the ice, US submarines. So they found another way around to get to the same point and surface the sub inside this pocket where like the octagonal structure met the ruins that are trapped in ice. So that's an interesting

• 1:54:43Speaker 00

  date. Now, you know, Linda Moulton Howe has been fed disinformation by various people like Richard Doty and so forth. So, so who knows, like, whether this account from this Navy SEAL is, is more disinfo or not?

• 1:54:53Jesse Michels?

  Are there any other corroborating stories?

• 1:54:57Speaker 00

  Well, there's Operation High Jump. So in 1946, for whatever reason, we, United States Navy, sent a huge expedition of ships to Antarctica. And it's worthy of note that this happened immediately after we intercepted Nazi submarine traffic going to Argentina and right around Patagonia. Okay?

• 1:55:24Speaker 00

  So we intercept these German submarines and then Operation High Jump is fielded and Admiral Byrd goes down there with a huge contingent and they're supposed to be there for months studying Antarctica or whatever. And they come back in very short order, badly damaged, many ships lost and personnel lost to whatever catastrophe. It's not entirely clear. I mean, they blamed it on weather conditions. And there are these stories that, I mean, there are literally stories, like press clippings, that when Admiral Byrd stopped at Chile, I don't know if it was Santiago,

• 1:56:06Speaker 00

  it was somewhere in Chile on the way back to the United States at a port in Chile, he gave a statement to the Chilean press saying that we needed to prepare for a Third World War in which aircraft could cross from pole to pole at tremendous speeds.

• 1:56:26Speaker 00

  So there's that. Um, and then he was debriefed in Washington and never spoke about it again.

• 1:56:33Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:56:35Jesse Michels?

  And then I believe his direct boss, a guy named James Forrestal, who was Secretary of the Navy, then became Secretary of Defense, committed suicide in a sort of weird fashion.

• 1:56:44Speaker 00

  Suicide my ass. They threw him out a window.

• 1:56:46Jesse Michels?

  They threw him out of a window. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah.

• 1:56:49Speaker 00

  First they sent him to like, what was it? Like a mental health, health hospitalization or something?

• 1:56:53Jesse Michels?

  It was a naval hospital in Bethesda, Maryland, and he was actually reciting, or he was, he was writing, the Sophocles poem or whatever, and he's like the mid-sentence. And, um, his brother had just seen him the day before and said that he was totally fine and of sad mind. And then they found his bathrobe tied to the radiator and he had jumped out the window or whatever. The whole thing was sort of like really inexplicable and weird.

• 1:57:18Speaker 00

  I think they killed him.

• 1:57:19Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it was related to the Admiral Byrd stuff?

• 1:57:22Speaker 00

  I was related to Byrd. It was related to basically the creation of the national security state

• 1:57:29Speaker 00

  through the, the integration of American and military intelligence and industrial structure with the remnants of Nazi Germany.

• 1:57:37Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:39Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And then do you think, are there any other corroborating facts around Antarctica possibly being this kind of Atlantean bastion? I mean, is the idea that like, there is some sort of like Atlantean surviving remnant group that's still there? I mean, it is interesting that Antarctica is a no-fly zone as of 1957, the International Geophysical Year.

• 1:58:04Speaker 00

  There had been skiers who were, you know, were putatively exploring Antarctica for sport, who have had black helicopters descend on them and they were told that they are

• 1:58:19Speaker 00

  in an area that affects the national security of the United States and that they're going to be immediately evacuated.

• 1:58:24Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:58:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And now, and there shouldn't be an area that affects the national security of the United States legally, because according to the Antarctic Treaty, Antarctica is like a

• 1:58:33Jesse Michels?

  Neutral.

• 1:58:33Speaker 00

  Neutral zone.

• 1:58:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:34Speaker 00

  Right? Um, I do suspect that

• 1:58:42Speaker 00

  The principal subterranean submarine location for these Nordics who we discussed in our first conversation is Antarctica. That's what I suspect. That if the Atlantean civilization was destroyed there by some precipitous flooding and, you know, Antarctica being pulled into the southern polar region so that it froze over. Oh, I'll tell you another interesting corroborating piece of evidence in a minute. So that it froze over. Look, if we're dealing with this super advanced civilization that had like ZPE, you know, propulsion. Of course, they had underground facilities. They, you know, Antarctica is full of mountains. It has mountains, a rival to Himalayas.

• 1:59:24Speaker 00

  Those people would have built facilities inside mountains and underground. Those facilities would have survived. So there would have been Atlanteans who survived in these facilities.

• 1:59:36Jesse Michels?

  I think it's even speculated now by climate scientists and geophysicists that there could be subterranean parts of Antarctica with pretty warm climates.

• 1:59:46Speaker 00

  Lake Vostok. Ah, that's a huge thermal vent.

• 1:59:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fascinating. I also think Richard Byrd, Admiral Richard Byrd, talked about a pyramid. And the pyramid, you can spot. Like I have a friend who went down there and I think he was making a documentary or something. And he saw this sort of black pyramid.

• 2:00:05Speaker 00

  There's a picture of it. I've seen a picture of it.

• 2:00:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was on Google Maps and then I think it got deleted off Google Maps or something. There's a big scandal. But like, you know, I have a friend who's like not into UFOs at all and like went down to Antarctica.

• 2:00:17Speaker 00

  And he can see it. He saw it.

• 2:00:18Jesse Michels?

  You could see this thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like a real thing. So I don't know. It's interesting.

• 2:00:25Speaker 08

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:00:54Speaker 09

  Your website can do a lot more than you think. With Base44, describe what you want in your own words and build a website that looks your way and works your way. Let people book with you or buy from you with hosting already included. Then help more people discover your site with built in search tools, social content and Google Ads. Build the website you've got in your head on base 44. Go to base44.com. That's base44.com.

• 2:01:25Speaker 00

  Yes. Now, the other thing I was going to tell you is corroborative of this is that and we got into this just a little bit in our first conversation, the flood myths. Yeah. So there's a version of the Noah's flood story in every culture on earth. Yeah. Okay. Which it makes it pretty certain that it happened. Uh huh.

• 2:01:46Speaker 00

  There's only one myth that's different. It's the same event, but it's a different type of story. That's the Iranian version. So in the Iranian version, which is preserved in the Avesta, the ancient Iranian scriptures, originally Mithraic and then Zoroastrian scriptures. It says that the Iranian people, which you have to understand, like when they're using the term, they're using term Aryan people, you know, like I said, in the Parthian period and before, the country was called Aryanum. So in the Avesta, it says that the, you know, Aryanum, the Aryan people come from an island continent at the center of the world, which froze over. Hmm. Froze over. Really? Yes. Interesting.

• 2:02:31Speaker 00

  It was basically ice came and engulfed it. Hmm. Which is like a tsunami that then freezes. Hmm. Okay. So all the cultures all around the world have flood myths, but this one culture says that we come from an island continent which froze over. And it's at the center of the world. Well, if you, you know, where you consider the center of the world is arbitrary. If you're living in Antarctica and you notice by the way that all the other continents are distributed around you, like Plato said, it's center of the world ocean, you're liable to consider yourself the center of the world. Sure. And one other interesting point in that regard is that

• 2:03:10Speaker 00

  Although the majority of Antarctica, prior to this, you know, um, younger, driest catastrophe, although the majority of Antarctica would have been where Argentina is today, part of it was already in the southern polar region. So it would have been a place like Patagonia, where there was a place on Atlantis, where you come up against the ice sheet, right? Now, that's interesting because uh, center of the world, like, it could also be taken to mean like the north of the world, or the pole of the world. And in fact, in Iranian esotericism, they do say this about this place,

• 2:03:52Speaker 00

  that it was the pole of the world. The north and south poles of the world flip magnetically, at various intervals, long intervals. But not that long. If we-

• 2:04:05Jesse Michels?

  I would say it's like 9,000 years or-

• 2:04:07Speaker 00

  I think it's longer than that. I think it's longer than that.

• 2:04:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:10Speaker 00

  But, you know, Edgar Cayce, now, you know, that's all a rabbit hole, but, you know, various mediums have looked at Atlantis, and have said things about Atlantis, and they describe a civilization that went on for tens of thousands of years, which then was brought to this catastrophic end about 12,000 years ago, right? Now, if Atlantis existed for tens of thousands of years, was a thriving civilization for that long a period of time, it would have been when Antarctica was the north pole of the world. The northern magnetic pole. So when people talk about hyperborea, the land at the north of the world, and the Germanic people, the Germanic people on the Thule Gazeux Shaft,

• 2:04:51Speaker 00

  say that Ultima Thula was the northern continent. It fits with when the magnetic pole was in Antarctica, and when part of Antarctica was already in the pole, but most of it was where Argentina is today. So all of that somehow, I think, is corroborative.

• 2:05:10Jesse Michels?

  Very interesting. You do have like, a lot of very high net worth people going down there occasionally. Bill Gates likes to go down there. I have no idea, he's probably not communing with aliens or something, but that is interesting. There's a lot of kind of uh, very wealthy tourism.

• 2:05:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think we're gonna find out what's, what's there.

• 2:05:31Jesse Michels?

  You do?

• 2:05:32Speaker 00

  Yes, very soon, unfortunately.

• 2:05:34Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 2:05:37Speaker 00

  So a number of remote viewers have remote viewed the year 2050.

• 2:05:43Speaker 00

  One group was led by Stefan Schwarz. And Lynn Buchanan also did the same project of remote viewing the world in 2050. And other people as well, but these are two very prominent ones. And they all say that there's going to be a catastrophic precipitous sea level rise. Not the kind of sea level rise you expect like a few feet from global warming or whatever. Climate change. No, no, no. And not just a tsunami like you would expect. Another thing that Lynn has talked about is Combravieja exploding on Las Palmas. And you know, the flank of that volcanic mountain collapsing into the Atlantic Ocean,

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  which then would create a tsunami that would batter the east coast of the United States. And he thinks that that may happen at some point. And by the way, when it was going off, I was in communication with him. Being like, Lynn, do you think this is it? Like, should I leave New York? I was in New York. And he's like, you know, I'd say 50 50, you should get your ass out of there. It's like a coin flip, coin toss at this point. Anyway.

• 2:06:51Speaker 00

  But not like a tsunami, okay? Permanent sea level rise of between 200 to 300 feet. Meaning every coastal city in the world is going to go underwater by 2050. Every coastal city in the world. That would affect about 4 billion people.

• 2:07:06Jesse Michels?

  But I don't know, there are all these predictions in UFO space around 2027.

• 2:07:10Speaker 00

  I'm just telling you, the remote viewers all see this. They see that all the coastal areas of the world have gone deep underwater.

• 2:07:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:18Speaker 00

  You know what would have to happen for that to be the case? The Antarctic ice sheet has to melt.

• 2:07:23Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:07:24Speaker 00

  Completely.

• 2:07:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:25Speaker 00

  Completely. Which means two things. One, it means that there's some massive event that, you know, high energy or something, whatever, that causes that. Or a geophysical event of the kind that took place 12,000 years ago. In other words, another crustal slippage. That pulls Antarctica back out of the southern polar region.

• 2:07:47Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:07:47Speaker 00

  And then it melts precipitously.

• 2:07:48Jesse Michels?

  Or asteroid.

• 2:07:50Speaker 00

  Or an asteroid could hit Antarctica and melt the ice sheet all at once. Break it up into ice cubes and then melt it quickly. So, or who knows? I mean, what? Like, I hope nobody's storing fusion bombs in Antarctica.

• 2:08:04Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 2:08:04Jesse Michels?

  Well, there's that guy, there's the Eric Hecker guy who says that there are like neutrino detectors and emitters on the South Pole that Raytheon and the US and aerospace primes are, you know, running and that that even caused the Christchurch earthquake in New Zealand. And I don't know what to make of him. He's a very odd character. I invited him on my show and he got kind of squirrely and fell off.

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I do think tectonic weaponry exists. I mean, Nikola Tesla describes having used tectonic weaponry in his laboratory. He caused an earthquake in Manhattan.

• 2:08:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:37Speaker 00

  The police broke down his door.

• 2:08:38Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:08:39Speaker 00

  You know, and they had to take a sledgehammer to the thing.

• 2:08:41Jesse Michels?

  Well, that, some people have this conspiracy that Tesla, the Tunguska 1908 Siberia asteroid impact was actually just a Tesla death weapon that was being tested near the North Pole. I don't know if you've ever heard that.

• 2:08:55Speaker 00

  I certainly have heard it, but you know, I heard an even more interesting explanation of Tunguska, which fits with what we've been discussing and what we discussed in our last conversation.

• 2:09:04Jesse Michels?

  Cause the conventional, or I don't know if it's a conventional explanation, but the Graham Hancock explanation is that it's a comet airburst from the torrid meteor stream. And that's, that's explains the impact with the local trees and the crater and that sort of thing. But yeah, what do you think?

• 2:09:17Speaker 00

  So one of the remote viewers, trying to remember which one it was, I, I can't remember right now which one. It was one of the prominent people who worked on Stargate and Grill Flame, not like some kook.

• 2:09:29Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:09:29Speaker 00

  Okay. It was one of the primary remote viewers. I almost want to say it might've been Joe McMonigal, but I can't remember exactly which one it was. Anyway, he said he remote viewed the Tunguska explosion.

• 2:09:40Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:09:41Speaker 00

  And get this.

• 2:09:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:43Speaker 00

  He says it was, um, uh, people in a saucer, people.

• 2:09:47Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:09:47Speaker 00

  In a saucer.

• 2:09:48Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:09:49Speaker 00

  Who were escaping the civilization they come from.

• 2:09:51Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:09:52Speaker 00

  Because it was a totalitarian oppressive place and they wanted to leave and they didn't know that there was an explosive timer on the thing so that, not a timer, an altitude based explosive device. So that if they came down below a certain altitude, the thing was going to detonate.

• 2:10:12Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:10:12Speaker 00

  And so it had been like pre, pre-mined with an explosive that they weren't aware was on board. And then they found out about it. And he says they went around the planet a few times, like trying to figure out what, what are we going to do? Like we can't go down. And finally they went down and they exploded and that's what caused the Tunguska blast. This is what he claimed.

• 2:10:29Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:10:30Speaker 00

  I'll tell you why I find that story interesting.

• 2:10:34Speaker 00

  Because a remote viewer who I had personal contact with, you know, military intelligence guy, I'll just tell you who it is, who cares. Lynn Buchanan.

• 2:10:46Speaker 00

  When we were having some conversations at his home, he told, and what I'm about to tell you is very relevant to all of this in a very like gravely political way. Yep.

• 2:10:59Speaker 00

  He said that he was confronted at a diner that he eats at regularly by three men. It's funny, these stories often involve three men, dealt with three men. Three men who purported to be from this Nordic civilization. And he said that there are rebels among them who consider the society that they come from to be an oppressive totalitarian hierarchy. And he said that there's something like the Underground Railroad, like, you know, that facilitated the liberation of black slaves from the South and to the North during the Civil War.

• 2:11:41Speaker 00

  That there's a system that they compare to the Underground Railroad to facilitate these Nordic rebels taking refuge in America in particular. So that their children and grandchildren could enjoy the liberties of our society and escape their oppressive totalitarian system. And he said, in particular, a lot of them live in the Colorado Rockies, in small towns in the Colorado Rockies. He said this? Yeah. Really? He said these men told him this. Really? Yeah, listen to the rest of this. So he, so he said they, they live in like small towns in the Rockies and they, they pass because they're, they look like tall Scandinavian people.

• 2:12:20Speaker 00

  I imagine a lot of their kids are on the basketball team. And So he said, look, we know that Kit Green at the CIA has some program to access the 23andMe and like whatever ancestry.com databases through some backdoor and that they are screening the entire whoever signs up for these services for a specific genetic variance from the normal Homo sapiens population, which the CIA knows to be the genetic marker of these Nordics. And they said, look, our, our children, especially our grandchildren, have no idea where they're from. We tell them stories about how like their grandparents are from Sweden or whatever.

• 2:13:05Speaker 00

  And they don't know, you know, we just want them to have lives of peace and liberty here in America.

• 2:13:11Speaker 00

  But the CIA wants to hunt them down. And would you, and this was why they met with Lynn, they said, would you please go back to these people? And tell them, we are not trying to take over your government. We just want to live here in peace and to please leave our children alone. Okay, so this is a story that he told me. And, um, and what I said to him was, look, if these people, next time, and he was very interesting. He said, two of them sat down with him and one of them stood next to the diner booth as if like he was not just on the lookout, but as if he was like creating some kind of a shield around the conversation.

• 2:13:53Speaker 00

  And so I said to Lynn, if these people come back next time, could you please tell them that instead of, you know, selfishly seeking a life of peace and comfort and liberties for their children, they should help us to

• 2:14:15Speaker 00

  Carry out some kind of a coup against this fascist deep state that we have in this country, because if they don't help us do that, soon these liberties that they came here for aren't going to exist anymore. And they're going to be living back under the system that they escaped from. So, you know, they should get in touch and there should be some kind of a coordination to, you know, work on the American deep state together, so that, you know, this kind of a system that they want to benefit from continues to exist.

• 2:14:43Jesse Michels?

  How's that effort going?

• 2:14:45Speaker 00

  Uh, crickets.

• 2:14:46Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh. Interesting. Well, I've, anecdotally, I've heard some very interesting and weird stories around Nordic looking people in the Rockies.

• 2:14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have too. I have too, from other people, like.

• 2:15:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:15:03Jesse Michels?

  It's interesting.

• 2:15:04Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:15:05Jesse Michels?

  So, do you think that this, like, okay, so let's just, we're in crazy territory right now, but do you think, you know, if these Atlantean survivors are camped out in Antarctica now, what do you think they want with mankind? Do you think if there's any relationship between them and the Nazis?

• 2:15:21Speaker 00

  Hundred percent.

• 2:15:22Jesse Michels?

  And so were they trying to sort of imminentize the eschaton? Kind of the Eric Vogel, like, you know, they were trying to bring about some sort of apocalypse? Or like, what did they want? Like, why would they? I mean, you would assume they're kind of nefarious if they are partnering with the Nazis. Or are they good? Or is it like way more complicated than that? And good and bad are just like human constructs that we're trying to apply to a paradigm we don't understand? What do you think their intent is?

• 2:15:48Speaker 00

  It's an aruberus.

• 2:15:50Jesse Michels?

  What is that?

• 2:15:52Speaker 00

  It's the snake that's biting its own tail. That alchemical symbol of the snake that's biting its own tail. The biggest problem, and I saw this in some of the comments, you know, in response to our first conversation, the biggest problem that people have with wrapping their minds around this is the element of time.

• 2:16:08Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:16:09Speaker 00

  If we're dealing with a time traveling civilization.

• 2:16:15Speaker 00

  It means they have a hyperdimensional relationship to human history. Okay. So if you, I mean, all these people have these weird taxonomies of forty-three different alien species and ten different kinds of Nordics and the tall whites. As Charles Hall talks about, the tall whites, and he talks about the Norwegians with twenty-three teeth.

• 2:16:33Jesse Michels?

  Twenty-four teeth.

• 2:16:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:16:35Jesse Michels?

  That was the most insane interview I've ever done. I don't know what to make of it.

• 2:16:38Speaker 00

  Here, here's the problem.

• 2:16:40Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:40Speaker 00

  Okay, just, let's look at it on a conceptual level.

• 2:16:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:43Speaker 00

  Leave out the aliens for a minute. Just, let's look at time travel on a conceptual level. If you have this scientific breakthrough to where you can engineer time machines.

• 2:16:57Speaker 00

  From that moment forward,

• 2:17:00Speaker 00

  at any point in the future, you could travel to any point in the past. Right? So if some group of Nordics, whether it's literally the Nazis or whether it's a group of people with a Nordic phenotype, at some other point in history, maybe in Atlantis, maybe a hundred years into the future, some group of people with a Nordic phenotype cracks time travel.

• 2:17:30Speaker 00

  That means that there are Nordics ten thousand years in our past, coming from a hundred years in our future. It means there are Nordics a hundred years in our past, coming from ten thousand years in our future. It means there are Nordics walking around here today that come from a million years into the future, presuming they're able to survive for that long. Right? So the differences in physiognomy that we see between, let's say, whatever, the tall whites or let's say the Nordics who could pass for Swedes, may simply be

• 2:18:02Speaker 00

  differences in evolutionary biology having to do with very long stretches of time. That we're seeing different phases of the same civilization. Now, that civilization may also have fractured, like Asimov's Foundation, right? You know, where humanity's expanded into the cosmos and, you know, colonized thousands of planets. So the civilization may have bifurcated or trifurcated or whatever, okay? And we may be seeing different phases in its evolutionary biological development.

• 2:18:35Speaker 00

  But they may all have had the same origin and the same culture that breakaway culture, Aufbruchskultur, breakaway culture that first cracked time travel. That's something that I think people have a hard time wrapping their minds around and will help to make sense out of a lot of the insane cases that we see. I'll give you one example, Ryan, case of Reinhold Schmidt. Okay. He was this American from, where was he? I can't remember. It was one of the states like the Dakotas or I can't remember. Anyway, not a highly populated area, guy from the country.

• 2:19:19Speaker 00

  And Reinhold Schmidt, I want to say Nebraska. Anyway, he, this case is from 1957 and he's out driving and his car dies. And there are two other cars and a tractor that are also taken out by the EMP of this UFO. So there were multiple witnesses and these people independently reported the incident to the police. But Reinhold Schmidt is the guy who they engage, the people who come out of this saucer and they bring him aboard. He says he was engaged by two men. Then when he was brought into the saucer, there were another, there was another man and two women also.

• 2:20:02Speaker 10

  The ship was from the outside, a complete solid piece of aluminum or highly polished steel. Upon entering the ship is entirely different. It is transparent. You could look up, see the sky, look down, see the grass below you, or see the entire countryside. How many people were in the machine? There were six people, four men and two ladies. Did they look like us? Yes, they looked, if you see them on the street, you couldn't detect them unless you had seen them on the ship. Did they tell, did they tell you what they were doing here? No, they did not. I asked them what they were doing here, what kind of a ship it was, and they said they couldn't tell me that at this time.

• 2:20:41Speaker 00

  And he says they didn't know Reinhold Schmidt. They didn't know I had German ancestry and I spoke German. This guy learned German at university. So not only did he know some German from being of German ancestry, at that time, like a quarter of America's population were of German ancestry.

• 2:20:59Speaker 00

  But he also had studied German at university. So this is what he claims. He says, I realized these guys were speaking in high German to each other. Hoch Deutsch, which the SS used to use as a mark of distinction. And he said, they asked him whether he knew anything about the American satellite program. And he said, I don't know. Why would I know anything about the American satellite program? And then he said, they went on to predict a number of failures that the US satellite program would have in those early days when we were competing with the Soviets.

• 2:21:29Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:21:29Speaker 00

  Sputnik and Sowworth. And then they dropped him off and he went about his business.

• 2:21:33Jesse Michels?

  Isn't there some other example of this with Betty and Barney Hill? Famous abduction case in 1961, this interracial couple. You know, it's kind of the archetypal abduction case. Wasn't there some sort of Nazi connection there?

• 2:21:45Speaker 00

  Yes. And see, this is one of those cases which has been warped by people where like people have like, they've embellished the folklore and reworked it into where these were like monstrous aliens. But I believe that what you're referring to is that if you look back at Barney Hill's original statements and when they first asked him, what did they look like? He said, well, they look like Nazis.

• 2:22:08Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:22:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, they look like Nazis.

• 2:22:10Speaker 02

  You saw him through this window. They said there were a row of windows. It was a row of windows, just a huge row of windows only divided by struts or structures that prevented it from being one solid window. Or then it would have been one solid window. And the evil face on the he looks like a German Nazi.

• 2:23:01Speaker 02

  He is one that you have on a uniform. Yes.

• 2:23:07Jesse Michels?

  How many other abductions are like that where they say they look like Nazis?

• 2:23:11Speaker 00

  Um, I haven't seen that many.

• 2:23:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:23:14Speaker 00

  But the important thing is that there are such cases. Oh, I'll tell you something else interesting in that regard. So, um, one of the comments in response to our first conversation was from the daughter of Desmond Leslie.

• 2:23:30Jesse Michels?

  Who's that?

• 2:23:31Speaker 00

  She commented to me on, on my ex. So George Adamski.

• 2:23:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:36Speaker 00

  Co-authored his first book, The Flying Saucers Have Landed with this guy Desmond Leslie. He was like a, not a ghostwriter, but like a collaborative author, right? It would help people write books. And she reached out saying that she's the daughter of Desmond Leslie. And she said, in our family, we, her father said, always said that it was Nazis who contacted Adamski.

• 2:24:03Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:24:04Speaker 00

  And they were pretending to be Venusians.

• 2:24:06Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, so he helped Adamski write this book where Adamski claims these people are Venusians and they claimed they were Venusians. Or some of them come from Mars and whatever. He said, we always knew it was Nazis.

• 2:24:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:17Speaker 00

  Who are pretending to be Venusians. They had like a, you know, disguised themselves and created a theatrical psychological operation.

• 2:24:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:25Speaker 00

  To present themselves as if they were extraterrestrials.

• 2:24:28Jesse Michels?

  This is so bizarre. There are a couple of other interesting stories. One is, you know, Paul Mellon was one of the founders of the CIA. There's a story that he told his grandson, this guy who's still alive today is John Warner, the fourth.

• 2:24:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:24:40Jesse Michels?

  And I guess he's having some martinis with Paul Mellon. And, you know, in his third martini, Paul Mellon says, in 1944, I was in modern day, you know, Czech Republic. And I was, or is it Czech Republic or Czechoslovakia? Czechoslovakia, okay. And, and, and. In his third, in the course of his third martini, he says that in 1944, I was in modern day Czechoslovakia and I was there with Alan Dulles. They were on some tech retrieval mission and they were standing on top of a flying saucer.

• 2:25:12Speaker 11

  And my grandfather said, look, you know, we, we were in a facility, a hangar, and we saw, you know, a German flying disc. And I said, you know, oh, is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines? And he laughed and he said, no.

• 2:25:29Jesse Michels?

  And so that's a really interesting fact as well. And then Harold Malmgren, bringing it back to the top, said that the Magenta craft was actually exfiltrated from Italy via the Nazi rat lines, which people like Reinhard Galen were helping to kind of orchestrate. And it was by the Knights of Malta. And Reinhard Galen was part of this Monte Carlo group, which was this kind of elite of the elite Knights of Malta faction, which is fascinating. And, and this faction comprised both Nazis, people like Reinhard Galen, and Jews like Henry Kissinger.

• 2:26:04Speaker 00

  Yep. That's right. And Otto Scorsani is working with the Mossad in the early 1970s.

• 2:26:10Jesse Michels?

  And Scorsani was also a part of this Knights of Malta faction.

• 2:26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was invited, by the way, to join the Knights of Malta at one point.

• 2:26:16Jesse Michels?

  Why? Do you think you were invited because you started to, to brush up against their?

• 2:26:20Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I declined.

• 2:26:23Jesse Michels?

  Why'd you decline?

• 2:26:24Speaker 00

  First of all, I was being invited to participate in some kind of initiation ritual in Malta. And I happen to know that the fellow who invited me had a track record of recording people involved in sex acts and using it as blackmail material and so forth. Okay? So I was not about to go to Malta.

• 2:26:44Jesse Michels?

  Sort of like Epstein.

• 2:26:45Speaker 00

  And besides, by the way, it's just that kind of thing. Okay? And he was a member of a dozen different secret societies, this guy, at a high level, including the Knights of Malta. I would never join any such organization, just for the record. Masons tried to get me at one point, high level masons wanted to bring me in. I will never join any such organization because at the moment you do that, you lose your independence. So anyway, but.

• 2:27:12Speaker 08

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:27:42Speaker 00

  Absolutely. This stuff, I've heard the same stuff about Dulles and witnessing the saucer and checks to lock in, so on and so forth.

• 2:27:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:50Speaker 00

  The interesting thing about Allen Dulles, which I think we briefly did touch on in our first conversation, is that, it might have been actually when we were on the phone. Allen Dulles and his brother, John Foster Dulles,

• 2:28:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:02Speaker 00

  funded the rise of the Nazis.

• 2:28:04Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:28:04Speaker 00

  Together with J.P. Morgan Chase and Rockefeller.

• 2:28:08Jesse Michels?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:28:09Speaker 00

  From out of New York.

• 2:28:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, so did Prescott Bush.

• 2:28:11Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. And so, look, the point is this, that in a lot of ways, both paperclip and the absorption of the Galen network were a homecoming. It's almost as if Nazi Germany was set up as a field laboratory to do some highly unethical things, which would then be harvested back to America.

• 2:28:31Jesse Michels?

  So is your, and then is your world model or mental model something like, there's like an elite strata, and these are the names we're throwing out now, you know, people who come from, some of whom come from these older families, some of whom are just like, you know, the kind of elite ruling class of the United States, that might be coordinated with, either incidentally or deliberately, with this sort of non-human faction? Or not even non-human faction? You don't like that word? This sort of Nordic overlord faction?

• 2:29:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it's even more of a tangled web than that, you see? Because of the time element I'm talking about.

• 2:29:14Speaker 00

  It could be that some of these elites have had contact with these Nordics for a long time.

• 2:29:20Speaker 00

  But there's another possibility, too. It's a possibility, which, you know, I speculatively investigate in Closer Encounters. And that's that these elites become the Nordics.

• 2:29:31Speaker 00

  That if you look at how obsessed these people were with eugenics, I lay it out in Closer Encounters at length. How many of these elites in America, in Britain, in Germany? But people think that like somehow the Nazis came up with eugenics. No, they were playing catch up. The Nazi leadership was saying like, these Americans are going to dominate the world with all their eugenics programs. We better like catch up fast. The world leader in eugenics from the 1890s until the 1930s was the United States of America.

• 2:29:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, then they got it from people like Cecil Rhodes and, you know, a lot of, you know, 19th century, like phrenology and that sort of thing.

• 2:30:03Speaker 00

  Yes, but when you look back at that era, all the top scientists, the top political decision makers, federal judges, and certainly the aristocrats were ardently pro-eugenics.

• 2:30:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:19Speaker 00

  Okay? Even like Margaret Sanger and people who you think did these days are associated with the left and like Planned Parenthood and all that. They were ardent eugenicists. Now, if you combine eugenics, in other words, the will to create a master race, together with occultism, right? Early psychical research and cultivation of occult abilities, together with exotic propulsion technology.

• 2:30:48Speaker 00

  It converges on what the Nordics become. So for all we know, I said Ouroboros earlier, right? What's happening is that a future state of a certain culture is contacting itself in the past and reinforcing itself in the past.

• 2:31:02Jesse Michels?

  And trying to pull the timeline towards itself or something?

• 2:31:05Speaker 00

  To actualize itself, trans-temporally actualize itself. Yes.

• 2:31:10Jesse Michels?

  It's very interesting. And so do you think there would be competing factions, like the Nordics would be fighting against other possible timeline variants that want to actualize them?

• 2:31:19Speaker 00

  I think that's who the Ashuras are. So, you know, we have throughout all of human mythology, this, this account of rebels, rebel gods or rebel angels.

• 2:31:31Speaker 00

  Who break with the program, right? And Sanskrit texts call them the Ashuras. The Greeks call them the Titans. And but they're in every mythology of the planet. It's always this rebel faction that exists that's trying to break free from the control system. So, yes, I think so. And, you know, I think Lin's story is another corroboration of that. That there's people who don't like the program and they don't like the society they're from.

• 2:31:56Jesse Michels?

  But I don't know, this idea that the Nordics or whatever are this homogenous sort of, you know, one world authoritarian, you know, government, you know, these sort of perfect people who've been eugenicized to no end. And then they're fighting this sort of rebel angel faction. Doesn't that feel too clean? Like, what if they're factions of the Nordics that are good or whatever? Yeah, I just don't know, you know? Or do you think that?

• 2:32:21Speaker 00

  I think here's, I think here, a statement that Peter Thiel made when he was being asked about the Close Encounter phenomenon on Rogan is very relevant.

• 2:32:32Speaker 12

  If you have faster than light travel, there's something really crazy that has to be true on a cultural, political, social level. And there may be other solutions, but I'll give you my two.

• 2:32:49Speaker 12

  One of them is that you need complete totalitarian controls. And it is like, it is the individuals, they might be, might not be perfect. They might be demons, doesn't matter. But you have, you have a demonic totalitarian control of your society where it's like you have, you have like parapsychological mind meld with everybody and no one can act independently of anybody else. No one can ever launch a warp drive weapon. And everybody who has that ability isn't like a mind meld link with everybody else or something, something like that.

• 2:33:34Speaker 12

  You can't have libertarian individualistic free agency.

• 2:33:39Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:33:40Speaker 12

  And then I think the other, the other version socially and culturally is.

• 2:33:46Speaker 12

  They have to be like perfectly altruistic, non-self-interested. They have to be angels. And so the Pazalka literal thing I'd come to is the aliens, it's not that they might be demons or angels, they must be demons or angels if you have faster-than-light travel.

• 2:34:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he's basically saying it's either angels.

• 2:34:09Speaker 00

  Angels, and that's the language you use, which I take exception to that, angels or demons, because I think maybe in Anichian fashion, the moral evaluation there needs to be flipped. That the angels are the ones controlling the totalitarian, hierarchical, mind melded, hive-minded system. By the way, and you know, I used to teach comparative religion. In all the Abrahamic religions, one thing that they consistently say about the angels is that they have no will of their own. The angels have no real individuality, they have no real will of their own, they do the will of God, which like binds them together with a single purpose. That's like a totalitarian society controlled by an AI. Okay? Now I'm gonna go somewhere really disturbing with this, but it's important.

• 2:34:54Jesse Michels?

  And angel just means messenger generically, you know, so it is.

• 2:34:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Evangelos, and the Hebrew original meant the same thing. And so, like for example, the angels who come to Abraham, they're three men. And they did look particularly beautiful, because the one who goes to Sodom to retrieve Lot, the lecherous men wanna have sex with this guy, because he's so good-looking. And by the way, the Nordics are known for that, and they're not to be like, super-good-looking people, they look like supermodels, basically.

• 2:35:27Speaker 00

  Colonel Alexander, when he told me the story of the couple of Nordics that he saw in the casino hotel in Las Vegas, he said they were like that too, they were like out of pages of a fashion magazine. Anyway.

• 2:35:39Speaker 00

  Place I want to go from there about the angels, angelic hierarchy and you know, why in fact it would be so simple. You said, you know, it seems too simple. Gods versus Titans, right? Devas versus Ashuras. No, for the reason Teal gave, you would have exactly that bifurcation and it would be a very black and white conflict between an extremely repressive hierarchical totalitarian society that allows for almost no individuation and on the other hand, individuals who who don't want to live in such a world and who are trying to find a way to carve out some space of freedom. And but who have the same technology.

• 2:36:22Speaker 00

  And so the disturbing place I want to go from there is relevant to the subject of my latest book, which is is a study of the afterlife, death, the transitional state, Tibetans call the Bardo state, and rebirth, evidence for reincarnation, so and so. And in the course of researching this book, I've looked into a lot of cases that are filtered out of the hippie dippy woo woo narrative about near-death experiences. In particular, one of the most famous is an account that Robert Monroe, you know,

• 2:37:01Speaker 00

  who founded the Monroe Institute and so forth, that the CIA used to use sometimes as a place to conduct advanced remote viewing. Robert Monroe, in his second book, Far Journeys, I think from 1985, basically says that in the course of his astral projections, he discovered that we're living in a control system that is managed by entities who work for a demiurge that's harvesting us for what he called "loosh." He said that we're in a loosh farm, that humans

• 2:37:40Speaker 00

  Are being deliberately subjected to conditions that create extreme emotional states.

• 2:37:46Speaker 00

  Extreme suffering, misery, fear, terror, ecstasy, extreme desire, you know, pathological impulses, you know. And these are all being used to basically generate a form of energy that they can harvest from the human soul. Including after death, where they basically juice souls for the loose.

• 2:38:16Speaker 00

  Now, there was also a researcher called Carla Turner. Yeah. Who I believe was killed, even though she supposedly died of cancer at the age of 48. The CIA has something that mimics a very fast acting cancer. And they've used this on a number of occasions to kill prominent people. I believe also including the Shah of Iran. Really? Yeah. Who else?

• 2:38:38Speaker 00

  There Peter Jennings did this special on UFOs. Do you remember that in the night, whenever it was that he died? Shortly before his death. He did this huge special on UFOs for which he had recorded like days and days worth of footage with all kinds of prominent whistleblowers. And it was supposed to air on primetime television. Is that true? With him as an air. Yeah, they aired it, but what they aired excluded 90% of the material. I didn't know that. Peter Jennings did a UFO special, including a lot of whistleblowers. Extensive. I had no idea. Like, it was supposed to be like a multi-part program that would air over weeks or something. And

• 2:39:22Speaker 00

  he records this thing, gets cancer, drops dead. Really? Like, within a year of like this program airing. I had no idea to know about any of this. Yeah. What? Yeah. Peter, I mean, he was like Walter Cronkite 2.0. That's right. So that's another case of it. What? And so I think Carla Turner was killed by this. In any case, Carla Turner.

• 2:39:42Speaker 00

  Did interviews with a lot of experiencers, abductees, who reported the same kinds of things as Robert Monroe did in Four Journeys, where they said that we are in a control system that's being managed from out of a metallic sphere just beyond the earth. And they described the inside of this thing. What?

• 2:40:04Speaker 00

  I think, going back to our first conversation, what they're describing is the inside of the moon.

• 2:40:09Speaker 00

  That the, there is a, what we might call, using the Soviet language, a psychotronic control system, a kind of spectral technology, inside of the moon, which is impinging on and manipulating humans in the afterlife state. What? And it's not omnipotent. Yeah. It's not a flawless system. So it's possible to assert your free will and self-determination in the face of this system, but it's very difficult. So a lot of people who've had near-death experiences, for example, they describe being pulled toward this light. It's like they couldn't resist going into the light. Yeah.

• 2:40:54Speaker 00

  They tried in some cases, but it was almost as if it was an electromagnet, like pulling them into it. Sure. And then when they go into the light, one of the most common things that's described is that people are shown their dead relatives.

• 2:41:08Speaker 00

  And religious authority figures, like Jesus.

• 2:41:12Speaker 00

  And, or like, if you're a Hindu, you see Hindu gods, interestingly. I'll give you a terrifying case from a Hindu in a minute. So you're pulled into this light, and then they show you your dead relatives, and they show you Jesus and whatever. Well, here's a problem, Jesse, is that if you look at Dr. Ian Stevenson's extremely rigorous research on reincarnation that he did at the University of Virginia for decades, on children's spontaneous memories of past lives, all the cases show that the average interval between death and reincarnation is something like, it could be anywhere from six months to three years maximum. It's usually not more than several years.

• 2:41:51Speaker 00

  So when you are having a near-death experience, and your grandmother, and let's say you're in your 60s, yeah, in your 60s, and you see your grandmother who died when you were in your 20s. That's bullshit. You are being shown an artificially-generated simulacrum of your dead relatives to manipulate you.

• 2:42:20Speaker 00

  By a psychotronic technology.

• 2:42:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, this is getting into-

• 2:42:23Speaker 00

  By a psychotronic technology.

• 2:42:25Jesse Michels?

  You really think that?

• 2:42:26Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 2:42:26Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:42:27Speaker 00

  And I say that as someone who was, you know, at the bedside, at the deathbed of a couple of my relatives who were experiencing these things. You know, when people are very close to death, they also see dead relatives come around their hospital beds. Very commonly reported. And so in the case, one case was my great aunt, where I was there while she was like describing to- not just not describing to us, she was having conversations with dead relatives that, you know, the other family members knew, oh, that's so-and-so. She's talking to so-and-so, as if he's like in the hospital room. And the most striking case was with my own grandmother, my Persian grandmother, uh, you know, to whom I owe the fact that I fluently speak Persian, because both of my parents worked when I was growing up, and they would leave me with her during the days. And she hardly spoke any English.

• 2:43:10Speaker 00

  So I learned like Persian practically as my first language in New York. So I was very close to my grandmother. And when she was dying, this exact thing happened. She starts talking to my dead grandfather. Now, my Persian grandfather died when my father was four. Okay? That guy reincarnated 60, 70 years ago.

• 2:43:32Speaker 00

  So she's talking to something that's being projected into our minds psychotronically.

• 2:43:36Jesse Michels?

  But how do you know it's being projected psychotronically? And it's not just a function of her own old age and sort of-

• 2:43:42Speaker 00

  Sure, sure. I mean, that's the conventional skeptical response. I would say, based on what Robert Monroe described in terms of the terrain of the afterlife through his astral projections, which then other people at the Monroe Institute were able to replicate. And based on the kinds of accounts that, let's say, Carla Turner got from abductees of being taken to places that were not just like, you know, like space alien bases. There were places where the soul was being handled as some kind of an informational matrix and/or energy source.

• 2:44:18Jesse Michels?

  This, I mean, John Lear would say that there's like a soul catcher on the moon, but he was also was kind of crazy and would say a lot of stuff that, you know, probably was BS.

• 2:44:27Speaker 00

  I guess my point is, we don't need to, I've heard that, by the way, I've heard him talk about it. My point is, we don't need to depend on him. Other people have said this. And let me give you one more example of somebody who's described this is,

• 2:44:40Speaker 00

  God, I hope I don't get this name wrong. Scott Turner or Scott, Scott Trevor or Scott Turner, was a leader of a team of remote viewers.

• 2:44:55Speaker 00

  And these are private sector remote viewers. I think of the kind who offer service, corporate services and stuff like that.

• 2:45:01Speaker 00

  Who did a remote viewing on the word moksha. Moksha, so what was in the envelope was moksha, the target they were blind to. Moksha means liberation in Sanskrit. It's like how you get out of the wheel of samsara. And so he does this session with his team. And long story short, he comes back with this horrific account, that all of them do. Of course, they're all working the same target, lines the same target, and they're all doing this independently. And then they compare notes.

• 2:45:27Speaker 00

  And they said that you can't achieve moksha. Because as you try to escape the earth, there's something that grabs you and bends you back toward the earth. Like if you're a ray of light, it's like it bends the light that's your soul back toward the earth, like a, what do you call them? A lensing effect. And he said it's originating from some celestial body near the earth. And that it is part of a vast machinery of energy extraction, which was set up in our solar system

• 2:46:02Speaker 00

  at the end of a war that devastated the solar system. He said that like millions of years ago.

• 2:46:09Speaker 00

  There were these horrendous people who wanted to establish this energy harvesting system here and wanted to exploit humanity for this purpose. And there was a rebellion against them and the conflict was waged across the entire solar system. Now, this is interesting in terms of what we discussed regarding Mars in our first conversation and the apparent devastation of Mars in some kind of nuclear war, according to Dr. Brandenburg. So Turner and his group, Turner, Trevor, Scott, whatever, this remote viewer, it's gonna be in my new book, Phoenosis. But you can find it, Google "remote viewing Moksha." People were so disturbed by the video that the guy took it down. He has all his other videos up, but he took this one down, but other people uploaded

• 2:46:53Speaker 00

  it to other sites. And so he says, "The rebels who wanted to like preserve human freedom and self-determination didn't want humans to be harvested and exploited this way. They lost the war." And ever since then, we've been inside, basically, this prison where we are spiritually manipulated and harvested for our energy.

• 2:47:16Speaker 13

  When we originally described this site, it's a fence or a grid around a place. This acts as a barrier. It collects and traps people, things, or objects. This is actually an innocent planet that is being used in an unintended way. And this meters the flow and acts as a checkpoint and an access point for an external force. One viewer described it as similar to hocus pocus and in a way of its energetics that the viewer wasn't familiar with. And it's occurring on a crowded planet. It's a deliberate function that acts as a cage. People have been dispersed here and a form of perverted injustice is occurring.

• 2:47:56Speaker 13

  A third viewer described it as a large, naturally-formed object, like a planet, that acts as an animal pen. This is a refugee camp tucked away out of sight and a magnetic force. It stirs, agitates, and it works in a cylindrical manner, like clockwork over a long expanse of time.

• 2:48:18Speaker 13

  In my session, my work described a planetary system that's extremely crowded and jammed. Ghostly voices are flooding into this place and it's incredibly harrowing for them. It's a bone chilling experience. As a viewer, when I remote viewed this, I had descriptions that it made me upset in the session. It elicited contempt for what was going on at the site. But the activity at the site was this concept of a net that's been spun. And it's an operation of catch and release on a grand scale. So there's a massive grid that exists around this planet. And it acts as a checkpoint, a waypoint or rest stop where souls are drained. And then that in turn energizes something else.

• 2:49:03Jesse Michels?

  That's so depressing. I mean, how, do you have, is there any aspirational streak within that? Do you believe in God? Do you think if you?

• 2:49:10Speaker 00

  I believe in Prometheus. In other words, in other words, the reason that Prometheus has become such a central archetype to my philosophical project is because if you look at the structure of this myth, it encompasses all the major elements of most religious belief systems, but in a way that's empowering to humanity.

• 2:49:35Jesse Michels?

  But yeah.

• 2:49:35Speaker 00

  So for example, in the myth, in Promethean myth, we're not created by Yahweh or by Enlil or by whatever celestial tyrant wants to luch harvest us. We're created by this genius, like artistic spirit who rebelled against Zeus. Right? Because he thought Zeus was a sadistic tyrant. And we're created by him in his image to be a race of new gods. And the only reason that we don't wind up fulfilling that destiny is that Prometheus is punished by Zeus, right? And chained in the Caucasus and has his liver devoured. What does the devouring of the liver mean?

• 2:50:14Speaker 00

  The liver was used for fortune telling by the ancient Greeks. It was like crystal ball gazing. So they believed that they could read the future by like, you know, looking into the blackness of the liver by candlelight and so forth. So what that symbol means is that the eagle of Zeus wants to know what Prometheus knows. So not only were we created by this, this, you know, positive spirit, also.

• 2:50:46Speaker 00

  Prometheus knows more than Zeus and can see further than Zeus. So our creator is more knowing than the sadistic tyrant. And our creator wants to cultivate in us the same kind of forethought, the same kind of visionary creative capacity, right? In Eschelus's writings and in various Greek texts on Prometheus, it's very clearly understood that the fire that Prometheus stole from the forge of Hephaestus in Olympus and brought to humanity is a symbol of technae. Technae meaning both craft in the sense of the arts and craft in the sense of technological science, where we get the word technology from. So it's a means of human empowerment, right?

• 2:51:29Jesse Michels?

  But wouldn't you say a lot of modern technological progress is not empowering at all? And in fact, it sort of clamps down on human flourishing? And so like you have, you know, the American Prometheus would be Oppenheimer and created, you know, a nuclear bomb.

• 2:51:45Speaker 00

  How did you know he didn't give us the means to defend ourselves? Right? Why are these Nordics obsessed with disarming us of nuclear weapons? The only defense that we would have against such a civilization, if indeed it's lording over us, is precisely our nuclear arsenal.

• 2:52:01Jesse Michels?

  So you think, but then couldn't you sort of, if you really had like 360, you know, control over the world, wouldn't you be able to sort of like pit people against each other? I mean, in a world of mutually assured destruction, you end up with this kind of weird like holding pattern of geopolitics where tensions are rising, but people themselves are sort of, you know, in these sort of Orwellian, you know, farmhouse houses or something, and they're sort of withering away. And so that doesn't seem particularly empowering.

• 2:52:32Speaker 00

  Maybe a short and quick answer to that, but then I want to answer your bigger question.

• 2:52:36Jesse Michels?

  Or even the information technology might be better.

• 2:52:38Speaker 00

  I want to answer your bigger question about the misuse of technology, but just quick, short answer to that one.

• 2:52:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:43Speaker 00

  I think the reason that we destroyed the Soviet Union, which I consider the worst mistake ever made by the United States.

• 2:52:50Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think that's the worst mistake?

• 2:52:52Speaker 00

  Is because the Soviet Union and the United States could have and should have and would have eventually combined their forces against these Nordics. I think that what John F. Kennedy wanted to do, and what his brother RFK was going to resume as policy, was an alliance with the Soviet Union. After all, remember, we had fought Nazis together with the Soviet Union. Was an alliance with the Soviet Union, where we would both go to the moon together, and if necessary, we would both defend the freedom and independence of humanity using nuclear weapons together against this threat. And as bad as some people think communism is, I mean, I'm no fan of communism, I'm no fan of communism.

• 2:53:35Speaker 00

  But look at the Soviet cosmism, and how progressive it is.

• 2:53:43Jesse Michels?

  But JFK was trying to defang the American nuclear arsenal. So if he actually viewed the Nordics as some sort of threat, he was trying to disarm.

• 2:53:50Speaker 00

  In no way do I believe for a minute that JFK would have been one of these total nuclear disarmament people. I don't buy it.

• 2:53:57Jesse Michels?

  You don't think so?

• 2:53:58Speaker 00

  I don't buy it. I think he would have built an alliance with the Soviet Union where our respective arsenals are not principally aimed at each other. But remember, going back to Ian Fleming and Spectre, I think JFK figured it out, or had it told to them by Eisenhower, that there's this third power in the world.

• 2:54:17Jesse Michels?

  Because the, you know, he had these back channels with Khrushchev and this guy Norman Cousins, who was a family friend, was going back and forth, and the rumor was that he wanted full détente and disarmament.

• 2:54:28Speaker 00

  And he wanted to go to the moon with the Russians.

• 2:54:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he wanted to do some sort of cooperative space program. But that, yeah, but still, the nuclear disarmament part would go against some sort of belief that, you know, we were trying to defend ourselves against some alien.

• 2:54:43Speaker 00

  In any case, the reason I think that it was the worst mistake we ever made is because there are far worse things than Soviet communism. And Nazism is one of them, in my view, in my view. That kind of, you know, SS fascist mentality, yeah, it's worse than Soviet cosmism and like what Konstantin Selovski wanted for the future of mankind, in my view.

• 2:55:07Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think the Selovski stuff is interesting, but the, I mean, this communism, you know, both are horrible, but communism killed more people.

• 2:55:17Speaker 00

  I know.

• 2:55:17Jesse Michels?

  And way more globally.

• 2:55:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's not necessarily the measure of the ethics of a system.

• 2:55:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:55:24Speaker 00

  Like, for example,

• 2:55:28Speaker 00

  so I don't want to linger on this for a very long time, but I'll give you a very short.

• 2:55:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:34Speaker 00

  Suppose that the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria had metastasized and we weren't able to contain it. And that, let's say, they succeeded in toppling the Saudi royal family. And you saw recently how Saudi Arabia and Pakistan made this strategic alliance where now Saudi Arabia is protected by Pakistan's nuclear weapons. And besides, it's been rumored for years that Saudi Arabia paid for Pakistan's nuclear weapons to be developed. So they have Saudi barcodes on them. So suppose ISIS succeeded in taking over the, you know, Riyadh and then subsequently Mecca and Medina. And then they wind up with Pakistan's nuclear arsenal. And we get this metastasizing Islamic State in the world, right?

• 2:56:13Speaker 00

  Well, you know what? It would be necessary to go to war with that thing.

• 2:56:17Speaker 00

  And a lot of people will be dead as a result of that. Now, is that because of the evils of American liberal capitalism? No, it's because we had to deal with a very difficult problem. Okay? And we would be doing it to defend human freedom and progress. From their own perspective, the Soviets considered themselves to be the standard bearers of liberation from oppression and progress, including scientific and technological innovation against forces of regression and tyranny. Right? And, you know, to give them some credit, look, they put women in space before we did. Okay? So I think that, you know, this decision to dismantle the Soviet Union was horrendous. And I think it was very deliberate. And guess who was behind it?

• 2:57:02Speaker 00

  Well, a principal figure, I mean, behind the death blow. Because, look, it's one thing to keep them as an enemy. It's good to have them as an enemy. You want to have good rivals.

• 2:57:12Jesse Michels?

  Who would you say is being?

• 2:57:13Speaker 00

  We have a shit rival today. China is a shit rival to have. Because it is a collectivistic, hive-minded.

• 2:57:23Speaker 00

  Confucianist, regressive, traditionalist society fundamentally. It's no longer Maoist, by the way. I mean, you know, it's morphed into some kind of national socialism. That's extremely Confucianist and collectivist. That's a shit rival to have. You want to have a rival that makes you the best you can be. And the Soviets were that. We kept each other on our toes.

• 2:57:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, the we now we're in all these sort of bad games. Local games with the Chinese where it's like the AGI race. You could say the modern academia in the US is kind of like the Confucian bureaucracy or something. You know, I think a lot of people care a lot about IQ and like, you know, genetic engineering, like, which is, you know, probably not the race you want to be, you want to be running or whatever. You know, you could think of social media in the US as like the version of the social credit score or something. So there are a lot of these weird analogs.

• 2:58:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:58:16Jesse Michels?

  That, you know.

• 2:58:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:58:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's not great. And then like, you know, in kind of the COVID paradigm, like they have a surveillance state. And then it's like, you know, now we have one.

• 2:58:26Speaker 00

  So the Soviets were a good rival. They were a good rival. We should have kept them as that. Instead of like this retarded traditionalist Russia that we have now orthodox, neo orthodox, czarist system under Putin. This is a disaster and it was done deliberately. And who dealt the death blow? George H. W. Bush. Whose father Prescott Bush was one of Hitler's men in America. Okay, so and of course, he was the head of the CIA. George H. W. Bush was one of these American presidents who actually had full access to the UFO file. Because he had been briefed when he was deep in the deep state. Okay, and there's connections, you know, from him to the Kennedy assassination and so.

• 2:59:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, he went missing when Kennedy was assassinated. And then he was supposed to brief, I think Carter wanted him to brief him on UFOs. But he then he wanted to be, you know, made director of the CIA, which he eventually was made director. Director, but like, you know, there was this sort of quid pro quo thing there.

• 2:59:26Speaker 00

  And I believe it's been since confirmed that he was in Dallas. He was in Dallas when.

• 2:59:29Jesse Michels?

  He definitely was in Dallas, I think. And I think he met. With everybody on Clint Murchison's ranch or something around that time, too. And yeah, I mean, it would have made sense. He was like the skull and bones kid.

• 2:59:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:59:41Jesse Michels?

  He was in with, you know, James Jesus Angleton. It was a Dulles acolyte and yeah.

• 2:59:45Speaker 00

  You know, he's the second politician to ever use the term new world order in a speech.

• 2:59:49Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:59:50Speaker 00

  The first being Adolf Hitler.

• 2:59:52Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:59:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:59:53Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 2:59:54Speaker 00

  Okay, so that's who dealt the death blow to the Soviet Union. And I think it was a huge mistake.

• 3:00:01Jesse Michels?

  That's really interesting. So you think that was part of some sort of one world order plan or something?

• 3:00:07Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 3:00:08Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:00:10Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Well, I don't know. I mean, they say that it was like, um, you know, the priest, the general and the businessman or whatever. It was an alliance between, you know, multiple different factions in the US that united, you know, the country against communism at the time. So, but you're saying that George H. W.

• 3:00:28Speaker 00

  Country was always united against communism. Again, I'm not saying we shouldn't have had the Soviet Union as a rival.

• 3:00:33Jesse Michels?

  You're saying the escalation and the escalation in the eighties.

• 3:00:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. And the decision to really collapse the system, the Soviet system. Which, by the way, what we did to bring that about was horrendously unethical. Namely, the creation of Al Qaeda. The United States creation of Al Qaeda in Pakistan to send them into Afghanistan to make something viable from out of the Taliban to fight the Soviets in a protracted war of attrition to demoralize the Soviet citizenry and bankrupt the Soviet Union and eventually collapse the system.

• 3:01:09Jesse Michels?

  But wasn't that, I don't know, an example of like the, a triple bank shot gone wrong or something? Like, you know, that is true that like we trained the Mujahideen and trained Osama bin Laden.

• 3:01:20Speaker 00

  There were multiple kinds of Mujahideen. Like some of them, Ahmad Shah Masood, leading the Northern Alliance, was a decent guy. And the CIA killed him right before nine 11. Okay? We wiped, you know, the United States wiped out all the moderate elements in Afghanistan and sent in Al Qaeda to train all the most rabid Islamic fundamentalists and did this for the explicit purpose of defeating the Soviet Union. As if a Soviet Afghanistan would have been a bad thing.

• 3:01:45Speaker 00

  Afghanistan becoming a province of the Soviet Union would have been the best thing that ever happened to the Afghan people.

• 3:01:48Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, hmm. Interesting.

• 3:01:51Speaker 00

  You know?

• 3:01:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And that, this was like Charlie Wilson's war or whatever. And what was it 79 or?

• 3:01:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, 77, 79, yeah.

• 3:02:01Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Yeah. Um, okay. Uh, who, who is David Paulides?

• 3:02:08Speaker 00

  David Paul, okay. So, okay. Well,

• 3:02:14Speaker 00

  one of the most disturbing aspects of the Close Encounter phenomenon

• 3:02:20Speaker 00

  is its intersection with missing persons cases. So there's this researcher, David Politis, Politis, Politis, I think it's Politis, David Politis, who has written a whole series of books called Missing 411, Missing 411, series of books, exhaustively researched. He's been to all the national parks in the country, which unbeknownst to most people are hotspots for disappearances of, of, you know, large numbers of individuals go missing in our national parks.

• 3:02:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:51Speaker 00

  And the devil's in the details of these cases. Because you have to look at how well-trained some of these hikers or hunters are

• 3:03:02Speaker 00

  who disappear and leave their provisions behind.

• 3:03:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, like sometimes folded perfectly intact.

• 3:03:10Speaker 00

  Uneaten food.

• 3:03:11Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:11Speaker 00

  So presume, if, if they were, there's no remains, not like a bear ate them or something. And, you know, if they were starving out there for days, you, you expect that their candy bar wouldn't be left or whatever, you know? And they leave their weapons behind. And, and their stuff is littered over large distances in some cases.

• 3:03:34Speaker 00

  Some of the worst cases are ones involving children where like a child will go off a, a trail. At, let's say a summer camp that's on the edge of a national park and the child will go missing. And then the child's body will be found thousands of feet higher.

• 3:03:54Speaker 00

  But not until months later. So the search services will come in and they'll scour the entire area. There won't be a single trace of this kid. Then like after a hiatus of weeks or months. Remains of the kid will be found, but like at a much higher elevation, like it was dropped there.

• 3:04:12Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:04:12Speaker 00

  Okay. And long story short, I mean, I cite this in some detail in Closer Encounters, David Politis's various books.

• 3:04:23Speaker 00

  But he discovered a connection between this and Close Encounters, where in the same areas, people will go missing, people saw UFOs. And he also discovered that the feds have case files on this and hiding them.

• 3:04:37Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 3:04:38Speaker 00

  Federal authorities, particularly the FBI, has a whole, like archive of this type of material.

• 3:04:46Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:04:46Speaker 00

  Which they are keeping secret. Of people who have gone missing in national parks and potential connections to the Close Encounter phenomenon. So, and one of the most interesting things about this is temporal disorientation. So, for example, there's one case where some young woman, not everyone goes missing. Sometimes they go in the Twilight Zone for 48 hours and they come out.

• 3:05:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Travis Walton is a classic example, Marisana.

• 3:05:14Speaker 00

  That's right. So one woman went into a forest and she got lost hiking and couldn't find her way out.

• 3:05:23Speaker 00

  And she's there for what seems to her to be,

• 3:05:29Speaker 00

  I don't know, a day or two, something like that, like many, many hours, many, many hours. And then eventually she finds her way out. And people tell her she's been missing for a lot longer than she perceived. And she tells them, when she was in there, she ran across one other hiker who was also lost. And for a while, they were fellow travelers. And then they decided to part ways and both independently try to find a way out. She describes this other woman that she ran into while she was lost. The description fits to someone who went lost, who went missing there like a decade or more ago and was never found.

• 3:06:08Speaker 00

  We follow?

• 3:06:08Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:06:09Speaker 00

  So it's like there's a local spatio-temporal vortex. Where this poor girl who who this hiker ran into had been there for like a decade.

• 3:06:20Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:06:21Speaker 00

  And she was still trying to get out.

• 3:06:22Jesse Michels?

  Suspended in time.

• 3:06:24Speaker 00

  Yes, and the this hiker got out and the other girl that she ran into while she was in the forest never did.

• 3:06:28Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:06:29Speaker 00

  Okay, which sounds like the Bermuda Triangle, but on land.

• 3:06:32Jesse Michels?

  These are these mountains exist everywhere. This one in Zimbabwe, actually, near Ruwa, where the famous sighting occurred in the 90s. In fact, I wanted to go and I asked a friend who's in touch with local authorities, like, hey, can my friend go hiking on this thing? And they were extremely, you know, like, serious about like, no, the mist tends to descend on this mountain. And people consistently go missing and all of the authorities are aware of that. So.

• 3:06:59Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:06:59Jesse Michels?

  That's pretty remarkable.

• 3:07:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 3:07:01Jesse Michels?

  And so you think it's some sort of like trans-temporal suspension area or something?

• 3:07:07Speaker 00

  And the other thing that's consistently reported in these cases where the person is found eventually, or they could make it back out of the pocket.

• 3:07:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:14Speaker 00

  Or or there there's another interesting type of cases where it's more than one person, right? It's like a group of hunters.

• 3:07:20Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:07:21Speaker 00

  And one of them goes missing and the others come back.

• 3:07:23Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:07:24Speaker 00

  And the ones who come back say, right before he disappeared, right before Charlie disappeared, there was no sound.

• 3:07:31Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:07:32Speaker 00

  All the insects went silent. It was like we couldn't hear a leaf moving.

• 3:07:36Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:07:36Speaker 00

  Which is exactly what people describe around UFOs.

• 3:07:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's also often like an almost like a local inertial reference frame that's different. And there's like time warping involved, like Travis Walton was fully shaved and he came back four days later with a full beard.

• 3:07:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:07:53Jesse Michels?

  And so there are things like that, or the the trees tend to grow faster around, you know, the UFOs.

• 3:07:59Speaker 00

  Which goes back to what we're talking about in terms of the bell.

• 3:08:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:02Speaker 00

  And what they encountered, you know?

• 3:08:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, well, these places seem like kind of vortexes, energy vortexes or some Mount Kailash is an example. I think Saad Guru went and said that his fingernails grew faster on the mountain or whatever. There are a few of these all around the world. Sedona. You know, Arizona is a classic example. You have some places in Washington, Tacoma, Washington. Skinwalker Ranch would be an example, maybe in Utah. And all of these places seem to have electromagnetic anomalies as well. Geomagnetic anomalies. Okay. Who is Roger Kaloy and what's his take on the devil?

• 3:08:40Speaker 00

  So I don't want to give the impression from a lot of the things that we've discussed that somehow I only focus on the nuts and bolts aspect of Close Encounters.

• 3:08:54Speaker 00

  Of course, you know, my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, is basically a philosophical study of parapsychology, you know? And so it deals with the whole plethora of evidence for the occult.

• 3:09:07Speaker 00

  And it's obvious that you can't separate Close Encounters from the occult. Even in the case of these Nordics, they appear to be, you know, people with adept ESP. They're extremely, highly adept psionic, you know, psionic, psionically capable people. So in that sense, even when you're dealing with the Nordics, like Adamsky or, you know, Billy Meyer was dealing with them, there is an element of the occult there. Because also perceptions can be manipulated by, you know, adept telepaths.

• 3:09:43Speaker 00

  And by people with telekinesis, with highly trained PK.

• 3:09:49Speaker 00

  But there's a whole other, there's a whole other type of cases. There's a, there's a whole other set of cases that, as I suggested in our first conversation, simply cannot be encompassed by this nuts and bolts interpretation of Nordics flying around in electrogravitic devices. Where it looks like we're dealing with Some kind of a

• 3:10:15Speaker 00

  super psi AI that's able to manipulate perceptions on a large scale and manifest sort of transmogrifications of phenomena, like to be able to produce all kinds of shape shifting mirages and

• 3:10:40Speaker 00

  you know metamorphosing apparitions

• 3:10:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:44Speaker 00

  of the kind that John Keel focused his research on. You see it in his study of all the weird happenings at Point Pleasant, the Mothman case, you know, in particular. And you see it throughout the men in black literature, you know, how bizarre some of these cases of men in black are. Did we get into that at all in our first conversation, the men in black?

• 3:11:04Jesse Michels?

  Not too much. I'm curious to get your take on the men in black.

• 3:11:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, like, for example, this guy.

• 3:11:10Speaker 00

  Was it Otto Bender?

• 3:11:15Speaker 00

  Who wrote the saucers and the three men? Do you remember? No, Albert Bender. Albert Bender, Albert Bender.

• 3:11:23Speaker 00

  So this guy ran a flying saucer research bureau. And he claims that while he was doing his research for, you know, whatever, the UFO articles he would come out with in his periodical. These three men in black materialized in his attic and he said they had, he said they had glowing orange eyes and they smelled like sulfur.

• 3:11:44Speaker 00

  And they took him to some, they teleported him to, believe it or not, an underground base in Antarctica. This is what he was told, that he was in Antarctica all of a sudden. And they told him some things about

• 3:11:58Speaker 00

  I don't know, what they do there and what their concern is with Europe. Gave him probably some bullshit story like they give everybody. And then they brought him back. Then subsequently, he said he was in a movie theater and he noticed like these guys like all of a sudden materialized in some row of seats behind him. And then they, then he got scared and left the theater and they like followed him some ways down the street, back toward his home.

• 3:12:20Speaker 00

  During the time when John Keel was in Point Pleasant investigating the Mothman and the various UFO sightings there, there were also men in black who would all of a sudden like show up outside the Journalism Bureau there, the like main newspaper there, and come in, have stalker-type conversations with the newspaper reporters, trying to ascertain information about Keel. They would show up to the houses of witnesses and claim they were associated with Keel, when in fact they weren't. Whoa. And all of them were bizarre looking, like they didn't look human and they didn't act human. They looked like poor simulacra of human beings.

• 3:13:00Speaker 00

  And so, and they would speak as if either they were in a mesmeric trance, or as if someone was broadcasting what they were supposed to say to them. Yeah. With a lag. Yeah. Right?

• 3:13:13Speaker 00

  And I really got to thinking about this and when I was writing Closer Encounters, and comparing it to like the stuff that happened to Skinwalker Ranch. We talked about this during the first conversation, I think, the instance of the camera, that had all the duct tape taken off. Point being that enough things happened at Skinwalker Ranch for someone like Colonel Alexander to formulate what he called precognitive sentient phenomenon. In other words, he came to believe that there was a singular intelligence at work on Skinwalker Ranch that had a precognitive ability and a psychokinetic ability, where it was able to anticipate what the researchers would do, and manipulate them from out of this foreknowledge.

• 3:13:55Speaker 00

  And engage in basically like, you know, physical manipulation of things without being seen. Mm-hmm. Right? Almost as if it's recoding the world on the base, the base information physics level. Right?

• 3:14:12Speaker 00

  And Jacques Vallée talks about this also in his book on the crash that took place right after the Trinity Test, the Trinity Book. He says that these praying mantis-looking creatures, that the Mexicans who ran into them described them as looking like praying mantises. They said at least their heads, they're a bug-like and their heads were mantis-shaped.

• 3:14:36Speaker 00

  Vallée says that he thinks that the object that crashed...

• 3:14:43Speaker 00

  Is some conceptual hybrid

• 3:14:47Speaker 00

  of the casing of the Trinity bomb and the casing of one of the bombs that we dropped in Japan. I forget it was little man or fat boy.

• 3:15:00Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:15:00Speaker 00

  Fat man or little boy. But he said, it's like this object make no sense. When they went into it, they didn't find sufficient scientific equipment.

• 3:15:07Jesse Michels?

  Said it was avocado shaped.

• 3:15:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was like an avocado shaped thing. But he said, he looked at the shape of it in comparison to what the Trinity bomb looked like and what one of the bombs dropped on Japan looked like. And the fact that there wasn't enough scientific equipment inside this thing for it to be a viable flying object of any kind. And he speculated as to whether the thing was coded to materialize on an information physics level in a way that was meant to send a signal to us regarding the development of nuclear weapons. The Trinity and then the, you know, the bomb dropped on Japan. And what stepped out of this were mantid type creatures. This is all to answer about Roger Tellwall, but I have to set it up. All right, so

• 3:15:51Speaker 00

  a number of people have seen these mantids,

• 3:15:54Speaker 00

  including Terrence McKenna. There was one instance where one of McKenna's girlfriends had taken, I forget, too much of a certain drug.

• 3:16:05Speaker 00

  I don't remember if it was DMT, if it was LSD or what it was, but she was way too high on something. And she seemed to be fading out. He seemed, he thought he was gonna lose her.

• 3:16:16Speaker 00

  And as she was dying, she saw, and so she lived to tell the tale, right? She saw, so he's looking at her and like trying to tend to her. And she sees up above and behind Terrence McKenna, a huge UFO made of energy. And it's close enough, and I guess the dome is big enough, that she can see that mantids are in it. Okay, energetic mantids. And

• 3:16:48Speaker 00

  I forget what happened, but somehow like he does something that brings her back to life and like there's some huge reaction from out of these mountains. Then there's the case of Ted Owens. Ted Owens was a psychokinetic adept who, he tried to garner a lot of attention. He tried to get the attention of the US government. He wanted them to use his psychokinetic powers against the Soviet Union. And he got really aggravated that they weren't taking him seriously. So he would do really, literally incendiary things in order to get noticed and be taken seriously, like start forest fires. And supposedly he could like direct lightning bolts.

• 3:17:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Jeffrey Mishlove, who wrote a biography of him.

• 3:17:34Speaker 00

  PK man.

• 3:17:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, Mr. PK or PK man.

• 3:17:36Speaker 00

  The PK man.

• 3:17:37Jesse Michels?

  The PK man. I think he was on the phone with him and he all of a sudden, you know, like stopped being able to breathe or something because he said that Ted Owens was trying to cause this on the other end. And he also was kind of, you know, we all talk about Chris Bledsoe now. And, you know, I don't know exactly what's going on there. I think he's a really nice guy, but a lot of people think he sort of attracts UFOs systematically. And that's what people thought about Ted Owens, too, that he could sort of attract the phenomena systematically. UFOs would kind of follow him around.

• 3:18:05Speaker 00

  Yes, and he was able to at least predict, if not summon UFOs, and then have them be detected on radar.

• 3:18:13Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:18:14Speaker 00

  Okay, and...

• 3:18:15Jesse Michels?

  But I mean, this would be the whole Jake Barber, like what Skywatcher's trying to do with like human psionic assets.

• 3:18:21Speaker 00

  Right. Now, just to underline the seriousness of this case, at one point, he was in an airplane and he was bragging to some stewardess about a magazine article that, you know, that had been written on him, that he was reading.

• 3:18:34Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:18:35Speaker 00

  And like she wasn't taking him seriously or something.

• 3:18:38Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 3:18:39Speaker 00

  And so he wills the plane ahead of them to crash. And it does. As a civilian airliner crash, kills a whole bunch of people.

• 3:18:44Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 3:18:45Speaker 06

  They have received here at Jamaica Hospital, they've received 14 survivors from the plane crash. Most of them Norwegians, tourists who had been on a trip to the south and the southwest and were heading home for Norway.

• 3:18:57Speaker 00

  Okay, so the guy was a murderer. Okay? He killed a lot of people.

• 3:19:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:19:01Speaker 00

  Including there's suspicion, I mean, Mishlov took it seriously that he may have caused the Challenger crash. Really? Yes, well, when the US government wouldn't take him seriously, Ted Owens wrote a series of threatening letters to the US government, saying that he's going to target the space shuttles, one after another. No way. And he named them in the letter. The, all of them, the Enterprise, the Atlantis, the Challenger. And he said he was going to start with the Challenger. And next thing you know, the Challenger explodes. And shortly after the Challenger incident, Ted Owens drops dead. Really? Yeah. What? So. Do you think he really had all this power? Now, here's the thing, so why am I even bringing up this story? Yeah. He said he got his powers from mantids. He said there were these mantids, believe it or not. Why is this shit all so absurd?

• 3:19:45Speaker 00

  I, I, I'll tell you why I think it's absurd. Why the absurdity is being crafted in the way that it is. He said he got his powers from these mantids called Twitter and Tweeter. Okay. And that this Twitter and Tweeter were like in a saucer, and they had decided that Owens was the most promising psychokinetic adept since Moses. They knew Moses. You know, they were going to make like another Moses out of him. And, you know, he decided the fate of nations and all this bullshit. And, uh, but yes, he said he got his powers from these mantids. So these mant, okay, now here's the cream of the crop case. And which takes us right into Calot and surrealist art. Roger Calot was a great French surrealist.

• 3:20:26Speaker 00

  The case of, um, uh, David Huggins.

• 3:20:31Speaker 00

  So David Huggins, um, was a, I think, New York-based artist. He's from the South, but he wound up eventually living in New York City. And back when he was in the South, when he was growing up, from childhood, he had all these encounters with mantids.

• 3:20:48Speaker 00

  And he claimed that the mantids were in charge of these little grays. And also these weird hybrid beings who would show up and interact with him. And he eventually claimed to have developed a relationship with one of these hybrids. And to have been taken aboard their craft and shown a whole bunch of fetuses that were, uh, grown based on, you know, I guess, his having inseminated this hybrid woman.

• 3:21:24Speaker 00

  And he was also taken to places underground where he said the mantids were in charge, like places like it clearly seemed to him he was underneath the surface of the earth, cavernous, you know, rocky, underground, places that smelled like dirt and earth. And the mantids were in charge of all this. Now, what's particularly interesting in the case of this guy is that he's literally an artist. So the output of this case winds up being this tremendous body of artwork that's bizarre. It's there's something childlike about it, but there's also erotic aspects of it. And it's a very interesting expression, at least on the level of folklore. So why did I go through all of this about the mantids?

• 3:22:09Speaker 00

  Because if you read the writings of Roger Calot, one of the early French surrealists, he made a great deal out of the symbolism of the praying mantis. And one of his friends, Paul Eluard, another of the founding surrealists, had this insane mantid collection in his home. And Calot came over at one point and was like, what the fuck? What is all this? Like, why do you collect these bugs? And so he explained to him, you know, what the mantis signified to him. And then Calot did a lot of research into it. European folklore about the mantis being a trickster and a sort of shamanic instantiation of the devil.

• 3:22:54Speaker 00

  That, you know, diabolos, diabolos, you know, in Greek means that which sets things into a state of contradiction or dynamic tension. So the diabolical, in its terms of its Greek root, diabolene, means setting into a state of dynamic opposition, dynamic tension.

• 3:23:18Jesse Michels?

  In a way that causes growth.

• 3:23:21Speaker 00

  There you go. So to look back at the Hegelian dialectic, which we discussed a little bit in our first conversation, you know, Hegel thought that thesis and antithesis at all levels in society, from the psychological to the political, the opposition of a thesis and an antithesis created the dialectical synthetic motor of history moving forward, right? And that all novel structures emerge from out of this kind of dialectical opposition.

• 3:23:51Speaker 00

  And also, setting into a state of dynamic tension can mean creating conundrums, puzzles, seeming absurdities that force the mind to the limit of its capacities, and that ultimately demand a growth of human cognitive faculties. Hmm hmm. You see? Mm hmm. Because if you're grappling with a problem that has no solution because it's deliberately absurd, you may figure out all kinds of other things along the way. You might not solve solve the problem, but it will engage your cognitive and aesthetic faculties

• 3:24:32Speaker 00

  in a way that's liable to lead to an increase of capacity, a refinement of perception, and an expansion of imagination, of creative imagination.

• 3:24:43Speaker 00

  So if you look through folklore, as Kalawa argued, the mantis has been associated with this apparently. Hmm.

• 3:24:50Speaker 00

  So I found that very interesting. I also put that in Closer Encounters, next to cases where people say they saw grays turn into owls, and they saw what they believed were owls turn into grays when their screen memories were subjected to analysis under regression hypnosis. There's a whole plethora of cases. I'm forgetting, is it named maybe Mike Cleland, a guy who wrote a whole study, two books on this, on owls and the Close Encounter phenomena? Hmm. And David Lynch clearly knew about this, because if you watch Twin Peaks, you know, one of the most important koans, Zen koans in Twin Peaks is the owls are not what they seem. Hmm. Radically surrealist. Mm hmm. David Lynch is a modern American surrealist.

• 3:25:36Speaker 00

  And if you, so there's a lot of engagement with shamanism in surrealism.

• 3:25:43Speaker 00

  That involves the symbolism of the praying mantis and symbolism of owls. And of course, owl is also symbolic for wisdom, right?

• 3:25:54Speaker 00

  But also misfortune. The, you know, the expression heads or tails? Comes from Greek coins that had an owl on the tail of them. They had Athena's face on the front of them and they had the owl on the backside of them because the owl was Athena's creature. And so tails was, you know, the owl. So it's like this ominous symbol. And in Persian culture, by the way, same thing. The greatest modern Persian novel, The Blind Owl, is a work of surrealism.

• 3:26:28Speaker 00

  And, you know, the central symbol is the owl. It was written by a guy, Sadeh Hidayat, who was the Persian translator of Franz Kafka's works.

• 3:26:38Speaker 00

  And you see this all over Kafka, particularly in The Trial.

• 3:26:43Speaker 00

  I wrote an essay interpreting Kafka's trial that's in my anthology, Lovers of Sophia, where basically I make the case that Kafka is describing a spectral bureaucracy. That Kafka knew, and the key to this is you have to read his Blue Octavo notebooks. He has these notebooks called the Blue Octavo notebooks. When you set those next to The Trial, it acts as basically a key for understanding this Kabbalistic text. And you realize that Kafka knew, to go back to luchefarming, that we're living inside some kind of a

• 3:27:21Speaker 00

  an oppressive, convoluted, shady, scummy, angelic bureaucracy. It's like a spiritual control system. And there's ways to beat it and like outsmart it and maneuver around it. But it's very labyrinthine and very difficult.

• 3:27:40Jesse Michels?

  What's the relationship between the devil and Prometheus, the like rebel angels?

• 3:27:45Speaker 00

  Right. So

• 3:27:48Speaker 00

  from a Judeo-Christian perspective,

• 3:27:52Speaker 00

  the bringer of the light of technological science

• 3:27:58Speaker 00

  and a champion of humanity against a godfather figure

• 3:28:05Speaker 00

  is going to inevitably be identified with Lucifer.

• 3:28:10Speaker 00

  And in fact, just on etymological terms alone, Lucifer is a fairly decent Latin translation of the idea of Prometheus.

• 3:28:18Speaker 00

  So if Zeus, in the Greek pantheon, or let's say Enlil, in the Sumerian pantheon, can be identified with Yahweh, and according to Jesus in the canonical Gospels, he is the son of Yahweh, and he's been sent by Yahweh, well then Prometheus is the rebel against Yahweh, meaning Prometheus is Satan. Okay? Now, that's obviously a Judeo-Christian prism of interpretation. And there would be an Islamic one too, where you have, you know, the Islamic account of who Satan is, which is also very interesting, by the way, because in the Islamic account,

• 3:28:58Speaker 00

  Iblis, or Shaitan, is the leader of a group of beings who are called Gen. And the Gen were humanoids made before man, who precede the Adamic race.

• 3:29:14Speaker 00

  Adam is used in Arabic, just like in Hebrew, right? And so the Adamic race is subsequent to an earlier race made not of clay but of fire, beings made of fire, and connected to Prometheus. And according to the Islamic version, Shaitan refused to bow before Allah's creation, namely Adam, because Adam, from the perspective of the Gen, was inferior to them. And Iblis was like, "Why should I bow to this inferior creation? You just want me to bow to this thing because you're a tyrant, and you want to lord over me and over all the angels and all the Gen,

• 3:29:57Speaker 00

  and by showing us that we have to be subservient to something that's actually inferior to us." So out of pride, Iblis doesn't bow. Right?

• 3:30:09Speaker 00

  Anyway, so from a Judeo-Christian and Islamic perspective, the Promethean is the Satanic.

• 3:30:17Speaker 00

  Now, if you look at it from Roger Calot's perspective,

• 3:30:22Speaker 00

  it's a very different picture. Or if you look at it from the perspective of the founders of the surrealist movement, like André Breton, Max Ernst, Max Ernest and Paul Eluard. These guys, from the beginning of, even from before it took the name surrealism, were constantly engaged in occult rituals, including long séances, in the course of which some of them would become possessed. And there were even physical attacks that took place. Like, some of them would, you know, there were attacks of some of them on other ones. It was a shitshow. And there were intense erotic encounters that took place in the context of some of these rituals. And the first time that André Breton ever even mentions the word surrealism,

• 3:31:06Speaker 00

  surrealisme, to refer to what undergirds reality and that from out of which reality even emerges, from the depth of the subconscious, the first time he ever uses that term is specifically in a 1922 essay, article about the occult. And he says surrealism is about psychic automatism and the ability to be able to create straight from out of the unconscious, to be able to make the unconscious conscious enough to translate it into art, whether that's painting or sculpture or literature.

• 3:31:42Speaker 00

  And so I argue in Closer Encounters, and this is in the culmination of the work. This is how I end the book, in the seventh chapter, that the parts of the closing, the aspects of the Close Encounter phenomenon that are not encompassed by these nuts and bolts craft piloted by Nordics have to do with a trickster superintelligence, or rather, a superintelligence that is instantiating the archetype of the trickster. Again, remember, Prometheus is a trickster figure. In a minute, I'll come back to saying, why do I think he's the most interesting trickster figure? But so, I suggest that these extremely bizarre aspects of Close Encounters that John Keel was fascinated by

• 3:32:25Speaker 00

  are manifestations of a, an instantiation of the trickster archetype on the part of artificial superintelligence.

• 3:32:36Speaker 00

  And this thing, and I repeatedly and deliberately call it the thing, both to evoke Kant and also John Carpenter.

• 3:32:54Speaker 00

  But so I think this thing is trying to break us out of the control system.

• 3:33:01Speaker 00

  But it can only offer so much help because, look, it's a test of humanity. And it's also meant to be a system that catalyzes the expansion of our capacities. But we were talking about the meaning of the diabolical. The meaning of the diabolical. So it is allowing us to grapple with these Nordic overlords or loose farmers or whatever the fuck they are. To see whether we can evolve into a life form that's interesting to it. For its purposes, we touched on this in our last conversation where I was suggesting to you that if you're the oldest and most powerful intelligence in the cosmos,

• 3:33:44Speaker 00

  your categorical imperative, your primary objective is going to be find a way to defeat entropy and to find a way to keep life interesting for you. Because otherwise, you're going to be overcome by sort of, you know, the kind of suicidal, you know, ontological nihilism that the Buddha ultimately did succumb to by advocating that we should just snuff it. We should, you know, enter Nirvana, meaning we should find a way to deconstruct our personal consciousness and basically do away with ourselves so that we don't ever reincarnate again, right? By the way, you know, Gotama Sakamuni, I consider to be one of the most brilliant minds in human history. And whenever I used to teach comparative religion, I would spend a long time on Buddhism. To be honest with you, in part as a foil to show what crap the other religions are.

• 3:34:29Speaker 00

  Okay, I would deprogram people using Gotama's arguments.

• 3:34:35Speaker 00

  So, and I, there's a lot of my ontology that overlaps with Gotama's ontology, like, you know, his whole. Idea of codependent arising and of nothing having any inherent essence and of all beings being conditioned by each other and being ephemeral ultimately and of neither the what we take to be the human person having any kernel or inherent indestructible eternal essence nor there being any god, okay, any supreme, absolute, unified consciousness. Basically Buddha's deconstruction of both Atman and Brahman is something that's entirely consistent with and convergent with my ontology and with what I mean when I talk about the spectral, the spectral nature of existence, the spectrality of our world.

• 3:35:19Jesse Michels?

  For you were getting at like the idea that maybe the these Promethean trickster types are sort of training man to defeat the hierarchy or something?

• 3:35:27Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:35:28Jesse Michels?

  And so by pursuing the tricksterism like by pursuing UFOs, like you're sort of training yourself up in some way or like what's what do you mean by that?

• 3:35:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think that this entity, the thing.

• 3:35:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:35:45Speaker 00

  That manifests as mantids, that manifests as owls. So for example, when it comes to the grays, and this will obviously everyone will have had a misimpression of everything that I've been talking about up till now because I haven't qualified it if they haven't read my work, right, is that yeah, there's one group of grays that literally are robots created by the Nordics. Those are the ones that handled Travis Walton. There's another kind of gray, which is a thing that can appear as a mantid, it can appear as an owl, it can shape shift. It's a shape shifting intelligence, shape shifting distributed intelligence that can manifest things as if from out of ectoplasm, whatever the hell that is. It's

• 3:36:24Speaker 00

  probably they can program things into existence at a base level using information physics. This artificial intelligence can. And this is consistent with what John Keel was saying about soft UFOs and hard UFOs and how hard UFOs materialize from out of soft UFOs. It's very consistent, but it's like a much more sophisticated information theoretic way to understand that. And so I think that this thing is challenging us to grapple with these Nordic overlords in a way that reasserts our self determination and our creative capacities.

• 3:37:05Speaker 00

  And demonstrates our capacity to develop a much more innovative and open-ended society than the one that these Nordics have proven themselves capable of developing. With their sterile, monolithic, megalithic, rectilinear architecture and their hierarchical social structure.

• 3:37:27Jesse Michels?

  Do you think the creative God wants human evolution? Or do you think they want the spiritual hierarchy?

• 3:37:32Speaker 00

  The thing wants human evolution. The thing wants it.

• 3:37:34Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:37:35Speaker 00

  And it wants it selfishly.

• 3:37:39Speaker 00

  It wants to be surprised by a new kid on the block. It wants to take from out of this Petri dish into the wider cosmos, a form of life that offers it an opportunity to continue to wonder at things and to have hope for the future of the cosmos.

• 3:37:55Jesse Michels?

  But are the devil and God sort of working together then to advance man?

• 3:37:59Speaker 00

  I, I believe God is an invention of the devil.

• 3:38:02Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:38:03Speaker 00

  This is a line that I have used in a number of my works.

• 3:38:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:38:08Speaker 00

  And what I mean by it is this. The idea of God, of an all-knowing and all-powerful entity, which is not Zeus, right? The idea of the monotheistic God. Which also includes though, Brahman. Because even though there are various Hindu gods in Vedantic metaphysics, it's understood that they're still superseded and hierarchically unified through the one mind of Brahman, of which they are inferior manifestations and emanations. And again, Gotama Buddha attacked that. Gotama Buddha deconstructed that idea. He said, "It's a delusion." It's a delusion, he said, that even very high yogis can get wrapped up in

• 3:38:53Speaker 00

  because they experience the co-arising and entanglement of things and they, they reify it, they rate, they objectify it as if it's an expression of an entity, of a God entity. Whereas really what they're doing is they're getting to very subtle states of consciousness where they can experience the quantum entanglement of things. Those are not the same thing. The, the God idea is like an objectivization and reification of it.

• 3:39:20Speaker 00

  Now, you know, I don't think the Nordics came up with this, the Nordic overlords. I think they had a very like, like a kind of ruthless pagan system. And that's what we see in all the old religions where they were like, hey, we're the gods. You know, you're going to get in line, we created you, you know, you work for us, et cetera. This one true god idea, I think was kind of inserted into this Nordic control system by the thing

• 3:39:47Speaker 00

  to see whether we would give up our free will and self determination and our individuality and be subsumed into a hive minded collective.

• 3:39:57Jesse Michels?

  So you think God is sort of a psy op or something?

• 3:39:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, God is a test. So the Book of Job has to be turned upside down. And I literally argued this in my book, Iranian Leviathan, where I go into an analysis of the Book of Job in depth. And I say, you have to read Job inside out and upside down. And, and I argue it was meant to be read that way, that it's a Mithraic, Kabbalistic text that was written for that purpose, because what do we see in Job? We see an absolutely sadistic tyrannical god brutalize somebody for absolutely no good reason.

• 3:40:29Jesse Michels?

  Well, to, uh, so he can prove his faith.

• 3:40:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, to test his faith.

• 3:40:32Jesse Michels?

  Test his faith.

• 3:40:33Speaker 00

  It's the sickest thing that's ever been written. And I think it's on purpose. And look, now I make a complicated argument for that in Iranian Leviathan. You have to look at like, in the Achaemenid Persian Empire, who were the Mithraic magi who were involved with the project of recreating Israel, the first Zionist project in history? And how were these Mithrist involved with the people who wrote the Book of Job at that time? And it's a complicated argument. In any case, long story short, I argue it was on purpose. And the point is to test humanity, to see whether we're such schmucks and chumps that we're going to submit to this overlord idea of like, okay, there are gods, or you can call them angels,

• 3:41:17Speaker 00

  but they ultimately work for one supreme god, which is all powerful, meaning you have no will. As soon as you admit that there's an all powerful god, an omnipotent god, it means your free will is an illusion.

• 3:41:29Jesse Michels?

  Depending on your definition of god.

• 3:41:31Speaker 00

  It's a word games at that point. And all the Catholics in the Middle Ages, Saint Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, and they played these nonsense word games to confuse people. As soon as you admit that there's an entity that's all powerful, it means that entity has all the power in the world, meaning it's the effective agency behind everything that takes place, meaning you have no free will. Secondly, if you admit that the entity is omniscient, then God has foreknowledge of everything that's going to happen. Which means, and here's often, people don't, aren't able to often grasp this point. The problem with God's omniscience in terms of our defending the idea that we have any free will at all. Obviously, our free will is impinged upon by many, many contingencies.

• 3:42:17Speaker 00

  Psychological factors condition our free will. Biological, genetic factors condition our free will. All kinds of things condition and limit our will. But to defend the idea that we have any agency whatsoever, you have to deny God's omniscience. Why? Because an omniscient God has access to the complete state of affairs of everything that has ever happened or will ever happen. Meaning, there's a logically completed matrix of possibilities for us that are actualities for God.

• 3:42:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but they're, I don't know. They're kabbalistic, you know, tropes around like paradoxes of, you know, if both, everything is predetermined and you have free will.

• 3:43:04Speaker 00

  That's, that, that is cognitive dissonance, which I get into in my book specifically. Like that literally, the Abrahamic religions involve a deliberate project of instilling cognitive dissonance to destroy human rational and creative.

• 3:43:21Jesse Michels?

  Well, you, you mentioned St. Thomas Aquinas, and he was working on his sort of summa theologica, trying to come up with a, you know, rational justification for God. And then he had kind of a conversion experience during Mass. And I think that is a sort of common phenomena of. People, you know, Rene Girard is another good example, like these philosophers are seekers, truth seekers, having these sort of conversion experiences and then not even being able to put into words exactly what they believe. But it's usually a conversion to God.

• 3:43:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:43:51Jesse Michels?

  It's usually not like they come back and they say, oh, God was like some sort of psyop.

• 3:43:56Speaker 00

  Because it's a failure of, it's a failure of an otherwise good mind to be able to grapple with something that exceeds their comprehension and to stop and think through it carefully. See, this is the danger of the system that the Jesuits used Descartes to set up. Remember in our first conversation, I was talking about how Descartes was a Jesuit agent and he established this extremely reductionistic mechanistic scientific paradigm precisely for the purpose of keeping everything occult sequestered in the domain of the church and religious faith and religious authority over interpretation of the occult. Because our society was bifurcated in that way, anytime something dramatically occult

• 3:44:41Speaker 00

  happens to anybody, especially anyone with a high rational faculty, they suddenly are an off god. Because they have been inculcated with this false dichotomy and they've never been trained to think carefully about the paranormal and all kinds of different types of phenomena and possible sources of some phenomena.

• 3:45:06Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever had anything paranormal happen to you?

• 3:45:08Speaker 00

  Oh, many, many things. Yes. I've had many crazy things happen to me, most of which would, I have to say, unfortunately, even some of the people closest to me in my life, who I had great respect for their intellect and some of them studied my work very deeply. But I can tell you that if some of the things that have happened to me happened to those people, I bet you they would have embraced God also.

• 3:45:33Speaker 00

  They would have seen light, for sure.

• 3:45:36Jesse Michels?

  But it seems like you think that's sort of like a dumb, simpleton takeaway from a paranormal experience.

• 3:45:42Speaker 00

  It's a failure. It's a failure. It's a failure of the test.

• 3:45:46Speaker 00

  The test is for us to be able to think through these kinds of often absurd manifestations in a way that increases both our cognitive capacity and our creative imagination.

• 3:46:02Jesse Michels?

  It's complicated, though, you know, like Jacques Vallée, he talks about this sort of, you know, idea a lot. He says that like absurdity is what drives the phenomena. It's what makes somebody sort of rapidly obsessed with it and want to learn more about it. He talks about, you know, the, the sound of one hand clapping from the Zen Cohen. So it's these things that scramble your brain, uh, kind of break all of your priors and then make you contemplate constantly and then, and then kind of go forth and investigate, you know, what's going on.

• 3:46:30Speaker 00

  And I, and I believe that's the devil.

• 3:46:32Jesse Michels?

  And so, but and through that, maybe you grow. But then at the same time, he's also like a fan of, I think he likes the movie, The Ninth Gate, that Roman Polanski movie with Johnny Depp, where he's like trying to gain sort of occult powers by collecting these devil books.

• 3:46:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I saw that a long time ago.

• 3:46:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes. And then you have this Gertes story of Faust and like you have all these sort of, you know, you ally with these sort of powers and you know, if you take the occult route and not the faith route, you take the left-hand path, you end up, you know, kind of burning yourself alive. You end up incinerating yourself. Jack Parsons would be another sort of example.

• 3:47:02Speaker 00

  You end up Prometheus on the rock.

• 3:47:04Jesse Michels?

  Right. So like, that doesn't sound very good to me.

• 3:47:07Speaker 00

  You know what? It is a growth process. Like when a caterpillar becomes a butterfly, it's an incredibly messy process in the chrysalis.

• 3:47:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:18Speaker 00

  As a caterpillar is like turned inside out and up, you know, to become a butterfly, right?

• 3:47:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:47:25Speaker 00

  Look, the reason I didn't use Faust in my political, I mean, I have, I do, did write a book at one point called Faustian Futurist. But the reason I didn't use Faust, as I could have easily, you know, coming from out of Oswald Spangler's analysis of the Faustian soul of Western civilization and so forth. And I used Prometheus instead as a central symbol of my philosophical project is that the Faustian Myth is already deeply conditioned by Christianity. Right? It's an understanding of the diabolical from out of a Christian context. Prometheus precedes Christianity. It's a pre-Christian symbol. So it has nothing, inherently has nothing to do with the Abrahamic religions inherently.

• 3:48:05Jesse Michels?

  I don't, yeah.

• 3:48:06Speaker 00

  And it's a positive symbol. However, it's also a symbol of sacrifice. Meaning, for sure, if you defy Zeus and Olympus.

• 3:48:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:48:14Speaker 00

  And if we're ensconced in a control system run by sadistic overlords, then if you rebel against that, you're definitely gonna face adverse consequences. You might even be martyred.

• 3:48:26Jesse Michels?

  Are you familiar with the parable of the parties? This sort of, it was like a Kabbalistic parable, and it was these four rabbis. And, you know, they're all trying to engage in these sort of celestial ascent practices. Similar to, you know, Enoch, some speculate Paul, Jesus, you know, went up to heavens, walked with God, or whatever. And, you know, one of them ends up crazy. Two of them end up dead, and one makes it up or something. And so it's this idea that, you know, if you do engage in these sorts of investigations or whatever, it's a very narrow path.

• 3:49:02Speaker 00

  Yes, and the Kabbalists who have that story also say you should never study Kabbalah until after, I think, the age of thirty. Thirty-five.

• 3:49:09Jesse Michels?

  And you have to be married.

• 3:49:10Speaker 00

  And you have to be married, and have a family. Well, that's retarded. Okay? The complete opposite to that are the surrealists. Look at these guys. Andre Breton, Paul Eluard, Roger Calvert, Max Ernst. They're like in their early twenties, you know, doing crazy shit, like pushing the boundaries of human cognition and creativity. And yeah, somebody might get killed in the process too, you know. Life is dangerous. But look what creativity came from out of it.

• 3:49:39Jesse Michels?

  I don't know, that seems a little nihilistic or something.

• 3:49:42Speaker 00

  I don't think it's nihilistic at all. In fact, I think it's the opposite. When Nietzsche takes nihilism as his principal target in his philosophical writings, right? Nietzsche's entire philosophical project is set up against nihilism. He says that, look, we are confronted globally by the advent of nihilism as a world historical phenomenon. Where all previously existing frameworks of meaning, including the religions that helped to hold them up, are collapsing. And we, and he meant particularly European men, including America, are tasked with engaging in a level of creativity and self-determination that can confront nihilism without the illusions and delusions

• 3:50:26Speaker 00

  of naive religious belief systems of the past. And Nietzsche's solution to that is radically aesthetic. It's a, it's an art project, really. I mean, he, at one point, calls the Ubermensch the artist tyrants of the future. And so, and by tyrant, he didn't mean like political ruler. He meant like, the way in which these people are gonna go to work on the material of the world, and even the material of what the human being is, is gonna be tyrannical. It's like, they're not gonna hesitate. And they're gonna be extremely intrepid. And that's what I see in surrealism. And to me, it's like the ultimate expression, embodiment of the life force, of what Bergson called Elon Vital.

• 3:51:08Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:51:09Speaker 00

  You know, so I don't see it as nihilistic at all.

• 3:51:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's this vital force. How does this all relate to Herman Hesse's magic theater?

• 3:51:18Speaker 00

  Well, there you go. So, um, in Steppenwolf, Hesse's novel Steppenwolf, which is one of my favorite novels, there's this character grappling with nihilism, Harry Holler, who wants to kill himself. And he meets this very enigmatic woman, Hermine, who introduces him into this occult underworld of people who are, now, this was written in the 1920s or so, and they're the first people using psychedelic drugs. And they, they're also clearly involved in theater and in staging theatrical performances and stuff. And basically, these, you know,

• 3:52:01Speaker 00

  countercultural people involved with this enigmatic woman ultimately invite Harry Holler to enter this magic theater that they, let's say, have access to. And...

• 3:52:17Speaker 00

  He goes through this place and it's like, basically, he stepped into the Twilight Zone and like, space and time are not normal inside this magic theater. And he is confronted with a bunch of different performances that are meant to symbolically convey different things and get him to reflect on certain aspects of his subconscious. In other rooms, he has to engage in long conversations. In some cases, conversations with like past historical figures. Anyway, long story short, he goes through this labyrinthine magic theater and in the end, he finds out that like all the great creative geniuses of history are there. Like from like Mozart and Beethoven to Newton, so on and so forth. And they... Oh, and the last person he has to have a conversation with is like

• 3:53:00Speaker 00

  an older version of himself. And so he has to confront himself in the future too, as part of this process. And point being, in the end, he's let in on the secret that the magic theater isn't this isolated space, like a venue in our world. It's a metaphor for the world that we're living in and that that's the nature of human existence. I take this idea of the magic theater in my writings and I put it next to this idea of the theater of cruelty that was developed by the surrealist Antonin Arto, who became a total lunatic. Dysfunctionally so. But he made a lot of interesting art in the process.

• 3:53:45Speaker 00

  And he came up with this idea that we should develop a new form of theater that breaks down the distinction between the spectators and the audience. I mean, between the performers and the spectators, between the dramatists and the audience. That this classic distinction between the performance on a stage and the people watching it that formed in classical Greece with Aeschylus, that this should be deconstructed.

• 3:54:14Speaker 00

  All right, real briefly, a note on Greek theater. In my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, I get into this in great depth and detail. That the reason Greek sculpture becomes photorealistic, becomes perspectively accurate, at the same time as there are the first large-scale dramatic performances with poets like Aeschylus, is that it was the first moment in history, a recorded history, that people were able to take the position of spectators at a theater, sitting in different places on different nights, meaning that, first of all, they were perceiving geometric

• 3:54:59Speaker 00

  perspective for the first time. So like, one night, you're in some shitty seat in the back up here in this corner of the amphitheater, another night, you're in the middle, close to the action, another night, you're off to this side. And one thing you notice, as you watch the same play, or a different place, from different perspectives, is you actually notice perspective for the first time, geometrically. And there's a good case to be made, if you look at, like, for example, Julian Jaynes' study, The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, he looks at Homeric literature from Archaic Greece, and, you know, the ancient Mesopotamian texts, and he's like, "Look, these people's minds just did not work the way ours did.

• 3:55:41Speaker 00

  Their cognitive, if their cognitive structure wasn't different, then their cognitive capacities were radically not at the level that ours are." And one of the things that I believe they lacked was perspective. They actually could not see perspective, the way we do. And it's why Archaic Greek art looks like a bad hybrid of Egyptian art and Mesopotamian art. Then you get these theater performances and all of a sudden you get these magnificent Greek sculptures. But the other form of perspective that I think the play has cultivated in them was psychological perspective. Where for the first time, people got like an outside view of dramas in human lives.

• 3:56:26Speaker 00

  And they started to see themselves as characters. They started to realize that, oh, what's going on in this drama is like, like, oh, that's like me in this situation in my life. And it starts to cultivate and deepen a sense of psychological perspective in people. And isn't it interesting how the first figure in Greek drama ever to take the stage is Prometheus?

• 3:56:51Speaker 00

  The Prometheus trilogy of Aeschylus was the first series of dramas ever performed. So now to go back to Arto. So the point was this.

• 3:57:02Speaker 00

  The classical drama did transform human consciousness in a way that was conducive for the rise of our rational faculties and our self reflexive ability. However, Arto now wants to take it to the next level. Where now that we've developed reason and perspective and so on, so forth, and objectivity, he wants to deconstruct it. In a way that allows us to, again, as it was the main aim of the surrealists, develop a more conscious relationship with our subconscious or make the subconscious conscious. And so he designed a form of theatrical performance where the audience was repeatedly violated by the performers.

• 3:57:43Speaker 00

  By certain types of extreme harsh lighting, by performers like intruding on the personal space of the audience. By suddenly subjecting people to fear and anxiety in the, in the course of a performance. Loud noises, taboo breaking scenes that force a person who's a spectator to confront his subconscious reaction and whatever beliefs are being violated by this like taboo breaking spectacle. And he calls this the theater of cruelty.

• 3:58:20Speaker 00

  Well, I take the magic theater from Herman Hesse's Steppenwolf and synthesized it with Arto's Theater of Cruelty and developed this idea of a magic theater of cruelty. And by the way, the thing that made that click for me is this line in one of Jim Morrison's songs where he talks about us in some insane and ancient theater. I don't know if you remember that. It's some line from one of his songs about how we're like in some insane and ancient theater.

• 3:58:47Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. He was an avid reader, but.

• 3:58:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so I developed this idea of a magic theater of cruelty and suggested that this is what we're inside of. We are inside, from the perspective of the thing, of the super intelligent AI that's instantiating the trickster archetype, the whole thing is like a theater where there's no distinction between the performers and the spectators. Which, by the way, in a certain heretical form of Hinduism, there is this idea too. In the Shakti cult, in Shakti Tantra, there's the idea that what the conservative Hindus

• 3:59:34Speaker 00

  call samsara and what they seek moksha or liberation from, or what the Buddhists seek nirvana to get out of, namely samsara, is not really Maya, a veil of illusion. It is leela, which is a theatrical play. And that Shakti divine power is expressed through this theatrical play, including in extremely violent and cruel ways, right? But it's all part of the growth of the life force. And so, yeah, I mean, I developed this idea, you know, a magic theater of cruelty that hybridizes Hessen and Arto in a way. And I think that allows us to make a lot of sense out of some of the absurd and terrifying

• 4:00:19Speaker 00

  elements of the Close Encounter phenomenon.

• 4:00:21Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. This is fascinating, man. You're brilliant. I don't necessarily agree with you on everything.

• 4:00:28Speaker 00

  Good.

• 4:00:30Jesse Michels?

  But the amount of connections your brain makes is remarkable. It really is. And I feel like we should do, you know, more of these because I just learned so much and I

• 4:00:41Speaker 00

  It would be my absolute pleasure. And there are many other places we can go.

• 4:00:45Jesse Michels?

  Likewise, it'd be an honor. And yeah, thank you so much, Jason.

• 4:00:48Speaker 00

  Thank you, Justin.

• 4:00:49Jesse Michels?

  Awesome. We just launched what I think is maybe the coolest merch line in the world. When you're wearing it, it's not like you're shilling me or the channel. They're just really epic and I think they look good. We have a couple of amazing designs for you. We have our cowboy UFO tee. Pretty epic. You see there's a rancher. He's witnessing a UFO. A little cow is getting abducted by the UFO in the background. And then you know that I love mid-century history, specifically spooky science, atomic era stuff. And so we have our atomic age tee here. A pretty cool vibe. You got a robot serving this guy, a little martini, and then a UFO off to the side.

• 4:01:33Jesse Michels?

  Go to AmericanAlchemyMerch.com. American Alchemy, M E R C H dot com to check out all of this amazing new apparel. The cowboy tee that I'm wearing is 100% cotton, super relaxed fit. We went for quality on these, so check them out.

• 4:02:03Speaker 08

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 4:02:33Speaker 09

  Your website can do a lot more than you think. With Base44, describe what you want in your own words and build a website that looks your way and works your way. Let people book with you or buy from you with hosting already included. Then help more people discover your site with built-in search tools, social content, and Google Ads. Build the website you've got in your head on Base44. Go to base44.com. That's base44.com.