“Aliens Invented Religion To Control Humanity!” -Top Philosopher Jason Jorjani

Our American Alchemist this week is Jason Reza Jorjani What if reality isn’t just breaking down, but being reprogrammed? In this deep, mind-bending conversation, Jason Reza Jorjani takes us through the hidden history of UFOs, the “Nordic control system,” and the trickster phenomena that blur the line between physics and magic. We explore Skinwalker Ranch anomalies that feel like edits to the “film” of reality, Landauer’s insight that data has measurable mass, and the terrifying prospect of an information catastrophe as humanity keeps producing more data. From Descartes and Kant to Claude Shannon and John Wheeler, we trace how our scientific paradigms may have blinded us to a deeper truth: that matter, energy, and information are three forms of the same thing, and that we may be living in an information-processing cosmos. For a deeper dive into all of these crazy topics, please join our Substack: (New!) American Alchemy Magazine ➤ https://substack.com/@americanalchemymagazine | Jason Reza Jorjani | Website➤https://jasonrezajorjani.com/ IG➤https://www.instagram.com/jasonrezajorjani/ X➤https://x.com/Jason_Jorjani Substack➤https://substack.com/@jasonrezajorjani | Thanks To Our Sponsors | Qualia: Take control of your cellular health today. Go to https://qualialife.com/jesse and save 15% to experience the science of feeling younger. MUDWTR: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code [JESSE] at https://ambassadors.mudwtr.com/JESSE #mudwtrpod Cornbread Hemp: Go to https://www.cornbreadhemp.com/jesse and use code JESSE at checkout to save 30% on your first order of Cornbread Hemp CBD. Cornbread Hemp: This is the good life. -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Patreon (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://www.patreon.com/c/JesseMichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Website ➤ https://www.jesse-michels.com/ Merchandise ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] #Philosophy #Religion #HiddenHistory #JasonRezaJorjani Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  Immediately before the Renaissance, you had these huge UFO battles over various European cities. Huge triangular craft, spheres of various colors, attacking each other, some of them falling from out of the sky. What a lot of people are concerned about, including people in the deep state of our own government, is that the bad guys won. In the struggle over reshaping human history, we wound up losing a rebellion against a control system that abides to this day.

• 1:04Jesse Michels?

  Who is actually in the driver's seat when it comes to these sort of scientific paradigm shifts? Who is pumping these ideas through these architects?

• 1:15Speaker 01

  The religious control system on the planet.

• 1:18Jesse Michels?

  And so what is that?

• 1:19Speaker 03

  This thing is very similar to a thing that's happened in our biblical records, where a lord presented Moses with a pattern to build a tabernacle. He, they came out of the sky. They handed him stone tablets. And this phenomenon that's taking place today is as old as our history.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  At the time the Black Plague breaks out, there are many UFO sightings. There are sightings of objects that land in fields. It was so prominent that hysteria broke out about it in the French court. And Charlemagne was considering declaring war on the tyrants of the air.

• 1:54Speaker 04

  Three men and a woman were seen descending from these aerial ships. The entire city gathered about them, saying that they were magicians, sent by Charlemagne's enemy to destroy the French harbor.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  The plague broke out only after these people would land in the fields, and they would go around with these hoods on and these spray cans. And these guys would walk and deliver door-to-door service, spraying the doors of individual homes, where then the plague would break out.

• 2:22Jesse Michels?

  Well, who are these people?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:26Jesse Michels?

  Ingo Swann is being tasked to remote view the moon. And here's what he saw there. He saw tall Nordic people conducting slave labor on the moon. What does that say about who these people are? Uh, number one, it says that they're people.

• 2:42Speaker 05

  I went into another room where there was a chair. A man came in while I was trying to find a way out there. And this was a, a human looking person. They had passed in a crowd, this individual, and on Earth.

• 3:22Jesse Michels?

  Jason Reza Giorgiani, thank you for joining me.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  I can't believe I made it into heaven with Jesse Michaels.

• 3:29Jesse Michels?

  I know, but did you think you weren't, you weren't gonna make it? Do you think, where do you think, do you think you were more of a purgatory guy? Or what was your?

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, yesterday was definitely purgatory. I tell you, you know, I've flown a lot and to have two airplanes break down.

• 3:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  And a seven hour delay.

• 3:46Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a little bit weird.

• 3:48Jesse Michels?

  It's super weird. Well, that's the perfect segue. Weirdness in reality, uh, for what I want to cover with you. Because I think you're one of the few people who studies UFO history and the nuts and bolts side. But you also kind of understand some of the deeper underpinnings and architecture of what's going on. I think the, there's like the kind of, you know, it's like the bell curve or something. If you're like, kind of really dumb and normie, like you don't think anything's going on. You think it's like all Occam's razor, like, you know, kind of, you know, there's nothing to see here. And then you get into the like middle of the curve. It's like only nuts and bolts. It's like, you know, all just saucers in a hanger. And then, once you get deep enough or something, you know, on the, on the right side of the bell curve,

• 4:31Jesse Michels?

  it's, it's consciousness is somehow extremely fundamental to all of this. And you get into weird stuff around secret societies and psychic warfare. And it gets weird. And so it feels like you, you are really deep into all of that stuff.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, one thing I would take exception to in terms of the bell curve analogy there is that I basically agree with what you're saying, except I think that there's a place on the other side of the bell curve from where the normies are who deny that anything much is going on at all. And then people who, let's say, have read Carl Jung on UFOs and appreciate the extent to which this phenomenon involves the co-constitution of physical reality by consciousness and so on and so forth. There's a place on the other side of that bell curve where someone can, as it were, fall off the deep end. And

• 5:30Speaker 01

  I think it's also a psychological defense mechanism. You can wind up developing such an abstract meta-interpretation of these phenomena that you're actually occluding or occulting some more tangible aspects of it that are deeply disturbing. And so that acts also, I think, both as a psychological defense mechanism for the particular researcher who may want to interpret this all as like the Kantian thing in itself, which we will never know. And it's like, you know, it's intrusions into our reality and our limited

• 6:12Speaker 01

  frame of interpretation, right? Based on human consciousness. The denial of our capacity to ultimately discern what's going on with this phenomenon can also be a way to defer responsibility for dealing with some very tangible things that are going on that are deeply disturbing and that have very serious sociological and political implications.

• 6:35Jesse Michels?

  I couldn't agree more. I think some people who are so far off the deep end in the consciousness realm are there because it's unfalsifiable, because it's like impossible to study, because it really doesn't even touch our consensus reality. So you don't need to justify it. It turns into its own sort of occult. But you said something very interesting there. You said, there's some deeply disturbing things going on in just the kind of more prosaic nuts and bolts, you know, version of the UFO story. What do you mean by that?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Let me come to that in a moment. But before we, you know, scare the bejesus out of the listeners right off the bat, let me give a little bit more historical context for what I was saying. So without naming names, Kant has become, I think, very important to some people who have taken a very abstract approach to interpreting what's going on with the UAP phenomenon. And if you look at Kant's own, Immanuel Kant's own life, here's a guy, and by the way, I wrote about this in my first book Prometheus and Atlas, there's a whole chapter where I discuss Descartes and Kant and basically the constitution of the world picture of the Age of Enlightenment, right?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  And the thing about Kant is that in his youth, he actually took the time and care to read the entirety of Immanuel Swedenborg's Arcana Colestia, The Secrets of Heaven, which has all kinds of accounts of extraterrestrials living on various planets and different gradations of existence, right, and planes of being and so on and so forth. And there's also, more significantly, a ton about psi abilities in that book, you know, about clairvoyance and telekinesis and so on and so forth. Well, Kant reads all this, and then he writes the groundwork of the metaphysics of morals

• 8:26Speaker 01

  in a way that develops an abstraction based on Swedenborg. He's using Swedenborg, but then he's warping the metaphysical structure of Swedenborg's work in order to construct an unknowable reality beyond the veil of appearances that's conditioned by the limits of our own consciousness. And if you read his earliest writings, which he suppressed in his own lifetime, Kant admits that the reason that he did this is that the stuff in Swedenborg is so disturbing that it would destabilize society, including on a political level.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  So what Kant wants to do is create this metaphysical model that allows him to define what he calls the Kingdom of Ends, where each human being is an end in himself, a moral agent equal to every other person. And then, based on this, he can frame this categorical imperative that you should never use any other person as a means, and every person should be treated as an end in himself, right? It's like the, you know, the Archimedean point of his whole moral system. Well, he does this by misappropriating and distorting Swedenborg and covering over both the psychic and telekinetic accounts

• 9:49Speaker 01

  in Swedenborg's writings, and also the accounts of, you know, various forms of extraterrestrial intelligence. And I see the same move being made today in certain sectors of the UAP conversation.

• 10:02Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's fascinating. I mean, that's a great book, Prometheus and Atlas. Everybody should buy it. It's this sort of sweeping philosophical treatise where you go through the advent of empiricism and reason and, you know, the Enlightenment and figures like Kant and Descartes. And in Kant's case, I think you also say that like, the occult, the reason to keep the occult, the occult or sort of separate somehow or, you know, off limits is because it would involve a storming of heaven or something. And did he have a political motive in doing this? Because with Descartes, I think you say that he was a Jesuit spy.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Descartes was literally a Jesuit spy. In other words, Descartes was in the employ of people who were holier than the Pope. In other, you know, that phrase, holier than the Pope? These were agents of the Vatican.

• 10:59Speaker 01

  That were acting against the sort of like status quo modus operandi of the Catholic Church in France. They were like more zealous than the Pope and they were Jesuits. And they had sent Rene Descartes to infiltrate the Rosicrucian order and to develop a false scientific paradigm that would reduce everything in the physical world to basically mechanical causality, which then has the effect of relegating everything that can't be encompassed within a mechanistic grid and framework of interpretation into the realm of the spiritual,

• 11:44Speaker 01

  which is in the domain of the Catholic Church, right? So then the Church gets to continue to have a monopoly on discourse about anything spiritual. And the common citizen is presented with a scientific paradigm that's soul-crushing nihilistic, so that he will then remain within the arms of the Church.

• 12:05Jesse Michels?

  And you think that was Descartes' mission?

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah, he was a hired Jesuit agent. I mean, the guy was literally a stormtrooper who functioned as a military intelligence attache to Catholic armies that were going through Protestant villages and burning them to the ground and, you know, basically engaging in a inquisitory religious war against the Protestants of France. And this is the guy who we trace our modern scientific paradigm to. Now, Kant wasn't, you know, a paid agent of anybody, as far as I can tell. But he definitely had political motivations, right? And the thing is Kant's political motivations are not something, you know, antiquarian and, you know, only relevant to his own epoch.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  We still face the same concerns that he did as a serious thinker grappling with evidence for the paranormal. So for example, as I point out very early on, and, you know, I've come back to this over and over again in the 14 books that I've written, but it's right there in Prometheus and Atlas from the beginning. If you consider what it would mean for

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Telepathy, clairvoyance, telekinesis, or what we call psychokinesis these days, to achieve mainstream scientific recognition, and for large numbers of people to then adopt training protocols for these latent human abilities, right? The way that we have now, a lot of the remote viewers, offering remote viewing training. Imagine what kinds of social challenges that faces us with, right? I mean, if people become adept telepaths or adept clairvoyance, there's no such thing as privacy left. There's no physical privacy left. Anyone can see you doing whatever you're doing inside the privacy of your own home. Anyone can even step into your mind, like the remote viewers, for example,

• 13:56Speaker 01

  who were tasked to psychically spy on Saddam Hussein during the first Gulf War, Lynn Buchanan and others. They actually went into Saddam's mind to the extent that, for example, you know, they would get ill when he was ill and so on and so forth.

• 14:10Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  So this is like a horrendous violation of personal privacy. And then, when you go to psychokinesis, it's even worse, right? So there's this direct mental influence on living systems that's been studied in a very serious way by parapsychologists. And often, what they'll do is they'll visualize certain organic systems in the body with a view to trying to heal diseases using psychokinesis. But obviously, I mean, as the Soviets figured out in the 1970s, when they were taking mice down in submarines and trying to stop their hearts, you can use the same thing to kill somebody. I mean, you can use it to give somebody a heart attack or a stroke. And there's evidence, you know, based on the testimony of some of our top remote viewers,

• 14:57Speaker 01

  that there was a black unit in the United States that was doing these things in the 1970s and 80s. It was separate from the remote viewing programs that were eventually defunded by Congress.

• 15:05Jesse Michels?

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• 16:34Jesse Michels?

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• 16:49Speaker 01

  So there were people who had, basically individuals from within those programs come to them and try to recruit them into programs where they weren't just remote viewing, they were using psychokinesis against targets of the US intelligence community. And some people refused to get involved in that program. I think other people were successfully recruited into it, like Pat Price. And I think the reason Pat Price wound up dead is that he was recruited into that program and tasked with certain operations and he wound up having serious moral reservations to that.

• 17:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's interesting too, because so Stargate was this, you know, a program originally out of Stanford Research Institute that you're talking about, which, you know, is the American psychic spy program. It turned into, you know, had a few other names and a few other agencies oversaw it before it was sunsetted in 1995. But I think a lot of people don't know that actually, a lot of original people who were on that program came from Sidney Gottlieb's Technical Staff Services. And so that guy, I mean Sidney Gottlieb, quote unquote, poisoner in chief, is sort of, you know, the American Joseph Mengele, if you will. She was doing everything to confer a tactical advantage on behalf of the US on pretty much all vectors of spooky science and would kind

• 18:07Jesse Michels?

  of, you know, lie, cheat and steal in order to do that. And I think he ended up dying with his wife at a leper colony, presumably maybe to, you know, make amends for his horrible deeds during his life or something. But, um, you know, that connection, I think, is not super well known, that maybe it wasn't just this, you know, maybe there were deeper black elements to this, um, you know, program.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  For sure. And so what Kant means when he uses the phrase storming heaven is precisely this, that we could wind up in a situation where, due to mainstream scientific recognition of these latent human abilities, which by the way, we share with animals, extensive evidence of that, that animals have much stronger psi than most people do. And that probably, uh, you know, on an evolutionary scale, there's an inverse relationship between the hypertrophy of technical intellect and the atrophy of these intuitive instinctual abilities. So, you know, these latent human abilities that we share with animals could be retrieved and,

• 19:13Speaker 01

  and trained and cultivated in a very deliberate way. And, you know, if these phenomena get mainstream scientific recognition, it's likely to be the case that many people will go adopt those training protocols the way that people train in martial arts today.

• 19:30Jesse Michels?

  The, the way they would have to be trained up now. So, okay, this is a really wild conversation, because assuming psi is real, so this idea that the mind-matter thing is not this, you know, total divide, there's a connection between mental phenomena and the physical world, uh, that changes everything. You know, all of a sudden, the pyramid where the bottom is physics, then you go chemistry, biology. You know, psychology or whatever, and then consciousness, that gets flipped and consciousness goes at the bottom and it's fundamental to sort of everything else. And so you'd have to assume if that is the case, there are people walking among us that know that, probably even outside of the context of these kind of academic institutions studying this stuff.

• 20:14Jesse Michels?

  And there are probably covert training programs going on right now where maybe people involved in the, in the training only have need to know or something. They're being trained and they don't even know they're being trained.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  For sure. And, you know, you can control a small cadre of such people. And if they get out of hand, there are ways of dealing with that. But if it becomes a large scale social phenomenon where people are going and training their clairvoyance, their telepathic ability, their telekinetic ability, the way that people train martial arts these days, we are going to wind up in a situation like the Salem witch hunts where you're going to have, I mean, how does a legal system even begin to deal with lawsuits that so and so hexed me and so and so burned my house down using telekinesis? I mean, it will be a nightmare.

• 21:00Jesse Michels?

  It's an institutional apocalypse.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. And so this is also one dimension of what we might call catastrophic disclosure because based on, you know, any serious empirical study of the UFO phenomenon, it's obvious that the entities who are engaging people from out of these craft are all adept telepaths and they have already cultivated the psychic abilities that are latent in us and that we could also train. And so a disclosure of what's on the other side of the UFO phenomenon is also de facto a mainstream scientific recognition of psi. I mean, you're already starting to see this with people like Jake Barber coming from

• 21:45Speaker 01

  out of Lockheed that, you know, they're using basically telepathy and clairvoyance to summon these craft, right? So, and then, you know, there's a lot of suggestion that the guidance system of these crafts involve a psychokinetic interaction between the pilots and the airframe and the propulsion system. So you have some of these wild stories about how very young people are being basically selected and gathered together from various parts of the world and brought to these black facilities so that they can more effectively pilot these craft, right?

• 22:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 06

  We also know that there are operations Oconus outside the continental United States where prospecting for psionic assets takes place and they're highly coveted. And the interesting thing is, is I hear in those programs that there's something valuable about the life experience in third world countries in that it seems as though people that live a simpler life and are outdoors more and have less contaminants in their food and their drugs and in their culture seem to be a little bit better at disassociating and heightening their intuition. And they come willingly because of the economic imbalance between where they come from.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  So point being, you're not going to have UFO disclosure without also having what I call the spectral revolution or a scientific revolution that recognizes the reality of psi abilities. And I can unpack what I mean by that spectral revolution if you'd like to go there and why I think it's not just another revolution in the history of science like the Copernican revolution or the Darwinian revolution.

• 23:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I'd love to get into it. I mean, my personal belief is that it can't be just another scientific revolution because science requires a priori skepticism, ala Francis Bacon. And so you can't go into an experiment saying, I expect the null hypothesis if you want a result in the psi framework, right? So like if James Randi or modern day Michael Shermer, like some of these scientific skeptics show up to one of these sort of psychic experiments and they have kind of a...

• 24:03Speaker 01

  It has an inhibitory effect.

• 24:05Jesse Michels?

  It literally will have a restraining effect on the actual results that you might get. And so you get into this sort of air pockets of consensus reality thing where you have believers and non-believers and... They just don't sort of touch and you can't really use the scientific method because yeah.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  By the way, that negative psi effect can also be empirically assessed, though, because you know, people can be given like Xener card tests and so on and so forth. And if they're extreme skeptics, they'll do worse than they could by chance. So you see like the psychological resistance manifesting itself. It's sort of a negative form of psi, right? In any case, that's a very good point. So that's one of the ways in which, you know, the conception of science that goes back to say Francis Biss or Francis Bacon and the Royal Society would have to be fundamentally changed. But you know, there's another huge one. And that's what Thomas Kuhn began to comment on when he wrote The Structure of Scientific Revolutions in the early 60s. And that's the paradigmatic nature of science.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  So what Kuhn pointed out is that scientific theories are nested within larger frameworks of interpretation. And these frameworks of interpretation, established as axiomatic and unquestioned, they assume certain hinge propositions. It's a term that comes from Ludwig Wittgenstein originally. Hinge propositions, meaning every other statement that's made hinges on certain unquestioned propositions. And every scientific paradigm has that superstructure. And scientists, as contrasted with philosophers, scientists never question those framework assumptions.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  So Kuhn noted that the basic assumptions of any scientific theory, which form the paradigm that's the context for that theory, they have certain basic definitions of, let's say, mass and gravity and so on and so forth. And these are different definitions depending on the paradigm that you're working in. So mass and inertia don't mean the same thing in Newtonian physics as they do in Einsteinian physics. And this simplistic, you know, Elementary educational textbook notion that somehow Newtonian physics is understandable

• 26:27Speaker 01

  as a subset of like Einsteinian physics is not the case. They're not mutually translatable in that way. And what's more interesting about Kuhn's argument in The Structure of Scientific Revolutions is that he says that when, if you carefully observe the conditions of a paradigm shift, let's say from the Copernican paradigm to, let's say, more sophisticated Newtonian physics to then Einsteinian relativity, the shifts always involve political conflict. And it's not the case that the promulgators of a previous paradigm are rationally convinced to adopt the new one. It's that they basically get old and die out, and there's a coup that takes place inside

• 27:11Speaker 01

  the scientific establishment. So he noted that scientific revolutions are also political revolutions, in a sense. And here's the thing about a scientific revolution based on the recognition of psi, is that because the framing of paradigms is a psychological phenomenon, people who think that recognition of ESP and PK requires simply a new paradigm with metaphysical concepts that are more rigorously expressed in certain scientific equations and formulas are missing the forest for the trees.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  The revolution that recognizes psi is a revolution that gives us insight into the psychological mechanisms that frame paradigms in the first place. So, understanding that consciousness really actually is sentience on a subconscious level.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Is forming physical phenomena as they emerge from out of the quantum domain. Understanding that intrinsic co-constitution of physical reality by consciousness is also to have insight into the psychological mechanism that frames paradigms to begin with. So then you can start to recognize, as Martin Heidegger did, that scientific theories are toolkits. They are not there to polish a mirror that provides us with an objective representation of some reality that's out there, as if our mind is a mirror, right? And it's representing an objectively existent reality. No.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Scientific paradigms and the theories that any given paradigm makes possible are models. It's a technological enterprise. So the epistemic discoveries in science are derivative of, they're an outgrowth of, an essentially technological enterprise. In other words, a model building endeavor that involves tools that allow us to achieve different ends. Okay? So if you think, for example, and there's a lot of discourse about this today, that, you know, maybe we took a wrong turn with Einstein and maybe, you know, the dynamic

• 29:38Speaker 01

  ether model that Nikola Tesla was proposing and that perhaps Townsend Brown was working with was the more accurate model of the cosmos and somehow Einstein went wrong. No, no, no. What we're in need of is a much more radical insight than that, which is that if you, let's say, want to travel at near the speed of light in a spacecraft, the right model for that is Einstein. If you want to create a quantum signaling system for like instantaneous communication across vast interstellar distances, the right model for that is quantum mechanics. That doesn't mean that you're ever going to have a meta-theory that reconciles quantum

• 30:20Speaker 01

  theory and relativity. If you want to develop a electrogravitic craft, you know, with a certain kind of...

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Let's say, uh, ability to tap zero-point energy as the basis for propulsion, you're gonna need to work with a dynamic ether paradigm that Tesla was starting to develop. These are different toolkits, they're different models for achieving different ends. And we have to give up this idea that, uh, science is about developing an objective representation of the world as such, as if that reality, capital R, is separate from our own consciousness.

• 31:05Jesse Michels?

  So this brings up a question. If, uh, actually, uh, tool-making for specific ends and politics is driving science, which is supposed to be immune from politics much more than we realize, then who is actually in the driver's seat when it comes to these sort of scientific paradigm shifts? Is there somebody behind Descartes? You know, any of these sort of myth-making or world-making figures, Newton, where like the last 400 years is kind of, we look at reality based on, you know, sort of vector calculus because of Newton-Leibniz, you know?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:40Jesse Michels?

  So who is pumping these ideas through these architects?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  The religious control system on the planet.

• 31:48Jesse Michels?

  And so what is that? You know how we're always diving into the edge of science and consciousness on this show? Lately, I've been thinking a lot about aging, not just in terms of years, but in how it actually feels in the body. Slow recovery, lower energy, that middle-aged fog that sneaks up on you. I feel like I can barely go out and drink alcohol anymore. That's why I started using something called Qualia senolytic, and it's been a major shift for me. Let me explain. As we age, our bodies accumulate what scientists call senescent cells, also known as zombie cells. These are worn-out cells that stop dividing, but don't die. They hang around in your body, draining your energy, clogging up your recovery, and generally making you feel older than you are.

• 32:32Jesse Michels?

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• 33:14Jesse Michels?

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• 33:29Speaker 01

  So now this is to come back around to your first question, which I said, you know, let's not scare the bejesus out of the listeners right off the bat, right? The thing is, if you spend, you know, any serious time looking into the UFO phenomenon, and by the way, it's something I've studied for 25 years or something like that. I touched on it toward the end of Prometheus and Atlas, which was published in 2016. It was my dissertation in 2012 and then was adapted into a book 2016. And then I wrote Closer Encounters, my study of the UFO phenomenon. Closer Encounters was published in 2021. But it's the outcome of like 20 years of preceding research.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  So anyone who goes into the UFO phenomenon, you know, with even, you know, half of that depth and, and, you know, endurance of research, inevitably realizes that

• 34:25Speaker 01

  whether you, you know, you want to work through what Jacques Vallée's uncovered, or whether, you know, you want to, you know, at least look at Zachariah Sitchen's research. The UFO phenomenon extends through all of recorded human history and most likely into prehistory. And it's absolutely inseparable from both revealed religious systems, like Judeo-Christianity and Islam, and also more archaic, uh, how could we put it?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Let's say archaic polytheistic ritualistic religions like the religion of ancient Egypt, or you know, the Vedic religion and so on and so forth. It's very clear that, you know, in the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, the devas and the ashuras, or what in the Greek language we might call the gods and the Titans, are exactly the same beings as, you know, the Elohim, the Elohim in the Bible, or the rebel angels, the Nephilim in the biblical context. They're the same beings as the Anunnaki in Sumerian scriptures, where again, you have two factions. This, this idea that there are two factions runs through every human religious belief system on the planet throughout the course of history.

• 35:39Jesse Michels?

  Would you say Prometheus is an archetype of this rebel angel?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, you, there's a through line from Enki in the Sumerian myths, to Prometheus in the Greek context, to Quetzalcoatl in the Mayan context, to, uh, let's say, a leader of the ashuras in a Hindu context.

• 36:01Jesse Michels?

  Sort of demigod figure that transgresses on behalf of man against the gods.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 36:07Jesse Michels?

  Brings forth some sort of sacred technology to them.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. And in a Judeo-Christian context, of course, this is Lucifer. Okay. So, you know, you have this story in the Bible about how the serpent, uh, offered knowledge to humanity in Eden. And the reason the humans were kicked out of the garden, uh, where by the way, they were workers, because you know, the nakedness in antiquity was a sign of slave labor. And we were tillers of the field in Eden for the gods, except we didn't know it. We didn't know we were naked, meaning we didn't know we were slaves. And this god, uh, is threatened by our being given the discernment to recognize good versus evil, because that would mean we would, we'd realize that our overlord

• 36:54Speaker 01

  is a bastard who wants to deny us knowledge. And what Adonai Elohim, the chief of the gods, says when he casts man out of Eden, or right before he does, is let us, you know, uh, basically... Exile them from the garden before they also eat of the tree of life and become like unto us, so that nothing becomes impossible to them. Right? So this is a God who's jealous and afraid of humans achieving parity with the gods, with the Elohim. And there's this rebel who's symbolized by the serpent. Now, remember, the serpent is punished by having his legs removed. And then in the Book of Revelation, Satan is referred to as that, the dragon, the great

• 37:38Speaker 01

  dragon, that serpent of old. In other words, Lucifer is explicitly identified with the serpent in Eden. Now, there's all kinds of people who want to argue against this because they want to save the Christian narrative in an Ostic sense. And there are people who try to identify Jesus himself with Lucifer and so on and so forth. I used to teach comparative religion for a few years. And so there are all these nuances, but I think the evidence is there to make the case that the dragon from the Book of Revelation is the serpent in Eden. And that's exactly the same figure as Quetzalcoatl, who's also, you know, represented as a feathered serpent, as a dragon essentially. And that's the faction of Enki. And you see the symbol in Egypt too, of, you know, the serpents with wings coming

• 38:23Speaker 01

  out the sides of them with the sun at the center, the symbol of the Shamasu Hor, the followers of Horus. So you have this through every human culture. And the narrative is essentially this, that we were created as workers or slaves or servants of some kind of celestial overlord. And we were put into a caste system, a hierarchy. You know, the word hierarchy literally means holy order, hierosarchy, a hierarchical, pyramidal society of the kind you saw in ancient Egypt, of the kind that you see in the Varna system, the caste system of India, of the Hindu religion to this day. And at some point, there was a rebellion against this structure.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  I would say the most compelling version of the narrative of that rebellion is the one you find in Plato. Plato's story about Atlantis. But people get hung up on the name Atlantis. If there was such a civilization, probably its denizens didn't refer to it as Atlantis. Plato uses that term because it signifies something very powerful. Atlantis means the realm of Atlas. And as I point out in my book Prometheus and Atlas, Atlas is a very powerful metaphor. The idea of Atlas of someone who has mapped the entire world and bears the earth on his shoulders, right? And actually, the globe that Atlas is bearing on his shoulders is not a terrestrial map.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  It's a star globe, which is what mariners use to navigate the world, right? And so it's this idea of basically developing a knowledge of the heavens and a mastery over the whole earth and modeling the earth so that we wind up with, let's say, medical atlases. Atlas is a term for a model, right? So this is integral to the model building enterprise of technological science. So the idea of Atlantis archetypally is the idea of a demigod society, which, as Plato says, wanted to empower humans and was hybridizing itself with a lot of humanity, right? And thereby lifting up humanity, not just psychically and intellectually, but also

• 40:35Speaker 01

  genetically lifting up humanity. It's the idea of using technological science to unlock the secrets of the heavens and achieve parity with the gods so that you no longer need to be a servile worshipper of some kind of overlord. And this is what Plato tells us was the great sin of the Atlanteans, is that they stopped sacrificing to the gods and worshiping them. So that Zeus basically calls the convocation of the Olympians and decides to wipe the world clean in what we more commonly know as Noah's flood, right? And so the biblical story of Noah is exactly the same thing, especially when you look at, you know, in Genesis 6, right? There's a whole part of that story that's clearly been excised.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  So in Genesis 6, all of a sudden, we're told like in rapid succession, oh, well, you know, there was great iniquity on the earth and God decided to wipe the entire earth clean and the flood. Wait a minute here. And the sons of the Elohim came down. They found the daughters of man fair and they, you know, interbred with them and so on and so forth. And the earth was full of iniquity. Seriously, in two paragraphs, you're gonna tell us that God regretted the entire creation and wiped the whole world clean, right? There's a backstory here. And you find the backstory preserved in the Book of Enoch, which was first discovered in Ethiopia. And it clearly was at one point part of the Tanakh and was excised, you know, due to

• 42:00Speaker 01

  whatever, you know, kind of, you know, theological power game that whoever was playing.

• 42:06Jesse Michels?

  You're so confident that it was part of the original?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. Because the story makes no sense without it. And what you see in the Book of Enoch is a direct hebreak, parallel to what you see in Plato's account of Atlantis. And then, you know, other cultures have their own versions of that. The Mayans do too.

• 42:21Jesse Michels?

  In Enoch, it's the watchers or whatever. And so, okay, how does all of this connect to the UFO story? Because you hear, I don't know, like, for example, Diana Pasulka came on my podcast and she said, you know, Jacques Vallée is very interested in the devil and demons and fallen angels.

• 42:39Speaker 07

  I'm having lunch with Jacques Vallée. So, we're in his study and it's really amazingly beautiful here in the Bay Area. And he starts to explain a couple of things to me and I noticed a bunch of books on shelves and I noticed those things, right?

• 42:57Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 07

  So I go and I start to look to see what he has on this one shelf. And then he takes one of the books off and it was a book about angels. And he says, of course, you can't have one without the other, right? Because he picked up another book and he said, you need to read this book. And whenever he says that to me, of course, I'm gonna get the book and read it. But this one was weird. So he showed it to me and it was the history of Satan. It was, it just had these big words on it that says Satan. And again, if I wasn't a little bit concerned before, I was absolutely concerned at that point. I was like, you know, Jacques Vallée is handing me this book that says Satan on it. And so, he, he, he said, look at the pagination. So I, you know, looked at the pagination, it was 666.

• 43:39Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 43:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, I thought that was so, you know, of course.

• 43:42Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 43:43Speaker 07

  It was a really weird moment. And he said that in the States, we think of the, we think of Satan or the devil as really, really terrible, right? But, you know, he said that the French, they have a different view of it and it's a much, it's less sensationalist. That's what he was saying.

• 44:03Jesse Michels?

  So, what does all of this have to do with the modern kind of UFO topic?

• 44:09Speaker 01

  You know, I knew Jacques Vallée for a while and

• 44:13Jesse Michels?

  I spoke to him this morning, actually.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so after, I think it was six, six, seven, within nine months of the time Prometheus and Atlas came out, he had invited me to his home and we had a nice dinner and fairly intimate conversation and I brought this question up with him. And because we were discussing basically, and we'll come around to this time travel. And whether, you know, he believed that these were basically humans that were reaching back into our epoch from the future and that essentially, you know, there was a breakaway civilization that

• 44:56Speaker 01

  had developed a hyper dimensional relationship to the various spacetimes of the epochs of human history. That a breakaway civilization with time travel essentially was able to have a fifth dimensional relationship with the various 4D spacetimes of different human historical epochs. Right? And I basically said to him,

• 45:19Jesse Michels?

  Some sort of multiverse management system.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think that's

• 45:23Jesse Michels?

  Branch management system.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  And I think that's definitely part of what's going on. Right? So how I start my book Closer Encounters is I lay out all the different hypotheses. Of course, the ETH, the extraterrestrial hypothesis. And then, you know, time travel, interdimensional hypothesis, the psychic projections hypothesis, crypto terrestrial, meaning survivors of Atlantis, which we're touching on here. And ultimately also avatars of a simulacrum. Are we living in a simulacrum? Are these in some sense avatars from the programming level of the simulacrum, which is something that Vallée, as a computer scientist, also has intimated in various writings of his. So, but the point is this, that, you know, we were discussing this, you know,

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Hyperdimensional, extratemporal relationship that these entities have to humans in various historical epochs. And I said, well, if this is what you think, why aren't you more direct about expressing that? And he said, because it involves deeply entrenched religious sensibilities of various societies. And there's a sociological dimension to this that could be catastrophic in terms of religious belief systems.

• 46:36Jesse Michels?

  Where you're skipping over one part, which is, what does he think? What is the relationship between, you know, the devil, demonic, and UFOs and all this stuff?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I didn't pin him down on that, so I don't want to speak for him. But I suspect that what a lot of people are concerned about, including people in the deep state of our own government, first and foremost, is that the, the bad guys won. In the struggle over reshaping human history, we wound up losing a rebellion against the control system that abides to this day. And the meta narratives that have dominated the rise and fall of various societies throughout the course of history, including, for example, the destruction of the secular humanistic culture of the late Roman Empire, you know, the Library

• 47:30Speaker 01

  of Alexandria, libraries at Corinth, the entire, you know, that, I'm getting this figure from Carl Sagan, we lost 98% of the knowledge of classical antiquity. They have actually done studies, based on like, the references that we do have to other texts by various authors in the classical manuscripts that have survived. And they've been able to do a reconstruction that shows that we lost at least 98% of the knowledge of classical antiquity.

• 47:58Speaker 08

  Who does that benefit?

• 48:00Jesse Michels?

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• 49:23Speaker 01

  Who benefits through all these resets of human societies? Another horrendous one.

• 49:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's really interesting.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Islamic conquest of Iran. At least as bad as the Judeo-Christian takeover of the Roman Empire.

• 49:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So... And you have all this kind of forbidden archaeology where you see like precocious advancements in past civilizations that shouldn't really exist. Whether it's like a Sumerian model of the heliocentric universe or the antique theorem mechanism, which is this, you know, kind of ancient, you know, kind of almost like astronomically aligned computer system that is found on this shipwreck near GNC. You have a bunch of examples of this.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Yes, so on the one hand, you have what look like gifts. Gifts from Prometheus, to speak archetypally. And on the other hand, you have attempts to decimate human knowledge and engineer regression and retardation to basically, you know...

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Reverse human progress. And one of the most interesting episodes-

• 50:27Jesse Michels?

  Who would that benefit? The sort of, this sort of-

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Well, whoever's running the control system.

• 50:31Jesse Michels?

  Malthusian, you know, feast and famine sort of cyclical, you know, cataclysm thing. That would benefit whoever's running the control-

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 50:40Jesse Michels?

  Do you have a model of who that is?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 50:43Jesse Michels?

  Who is it?

• 50:44Speaker 01

  I do. So, okay, the devil's in the details.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Or maybe we should invert the religious symbolism there, right?

• 50:53Speaker 01

  But let me just point to one interesting example of this. You know, right before the Renaissance took place. Renaissance is obviously an example of a, well, a rebirth of the will to know and human cultivation, both artistically and scientifically. I mean, Prometheus didn't just bring science to humanity. Prometheus brought technae, both in the sense of the arts and the sciences. And so the Renaissance is a quintessentially Promethean phenomenon. It's interesting that immediately before the Renaissance, you had these huge UFO battles over various European cities.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  And they're reflected in the broadsheets of the time. The newspapers of the time, in Basel, Switzerland, in Nuremberg in Germany, they show these huge battles between objects in the sky.

• 51:50Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and some of them, I mean, you can, you know, valets reprinted them in Wonders in the Sky. There are a number of texts on the UFO phenomenon. These are newspapers that show huge triangular craft, spheres of various colors attacking each other, some of them falling from out of the sky, in battles that took place in several places over Central Europe.

• 52:12Jesse Michels?

  This is like 15th century or-

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Just before the Renaissance. 1400s.

• 52:17Jesse Michels?

  1400s.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So just before the Renaissance. So to me, that looks like the rebel faction gaining ground and opening up a space for humanity to progress again for a while, right? Now, there was also-

• 52:32Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, that's interesting. So you think that like these celestial battles take place right before there's some airdropping of human technology or something?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Look, I don't want to reduce human agency, you know, by calling it an airdropping, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a little help, right? But at the very least-

• 52:52Jesse Michels?

  Vile would say donations-

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and at the very least, there was a safeguarding of a space for human development and, you know, the rebirth of ingenuity and so forth. But then, you know, as I was mentioning earlier, let's say the Jesuit order tried to capture that and control it again through, you know, a frontman like Descartes, where you had somebody like Giordano Bruno developing a very holistic sort of, you know, how can I put it, hermetic, alchemical matrix for what could have been a very different form of modern science. And that was destroyed through the reductive dualistic model of Descartes, right, where everything in the physical world can only be understood

• 53:39Speaker 01

  in terms of mechanistic causality, and then whatever spiritual can't be discussed rationally, and therefore, you know, the church continues to have a monopoly over that discourse. So there were attempts to then basically suffocate the Renaissance and warp the energies of the Renaissance to have it miscarry into what became materialistic, reductionistic modern science.

• 54:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you have this great book, I think Frances Yates, The Rosicrucian Enlightenment, she talks about King Frederick sort of housing a lot of these heretical thinkers, John Dee, Edward Kelly, and I think Giordano Bruno-

• 54:15Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:16Jesse Michels?

  Well, and then there's this war, and I think Descartes fights on the other side of the war, right?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 54:21Jesse Michels?

  Which is really interesting, and so, you know, it's almost symbolic that you have this kind of, you know, fighter in the world of reason actually engaging in this battle against the literal people housing or providing safe haven to some of these more heretical thinkers who are claiming to commune directly with angels and that sort of thing.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  That's right, and, you know, the Renaissance was supposed to take place in the 1300s. If you look at-

• 54:45Jesse Michels?

  What does that mean?

• 54:46Speaker 01

  Well-

• 54:47Jesse Michels?

  They missed their programming-

• 54:48Speaker 01

  If you look at, you know, the trajectory of cultural development in the so-called Middle Ages, right? You start to see the development of academies and the rudiments of empirical investigations into nature in the late 1200s. And, you know, people like Paracelsus and Cornelius Agrippa and the great alchemists come from out of this, out of this cultural development. This is where the Faust story comes from, right? The legend of Dr. Faustus. It's that period in the late 1200s, early 1300s. And then what happened? The Black Plague. When you look at accounts of what actually

• 55:31Speaker 01

  went on during the Black Plague, and here, you know, the work of William Bramley is absolutely indispensable. He wrote this, this book, The Gods of Eden. And as far as I can tell Bramley had like, he wrote this masterful text and then he never went back to the UFO phenomena. So he's the furthest thing from a grifter, like who just wanted to write one book after another about this stuff, right? No, he, he settled it and that was it, you know? He had what he, he said what he had to say. So Bramley started out as a very conventional researcher trying to understand war profiteering. He, he wanted to understand, you know, who was behind engineering all these wars throughout history and whether like there was some systematic way in which profiteering was taking place through large-scale

• 56:16Speaker 01

  engineered human suffering. And he was thinking, okay, like bankers and like banking elites and shit like that, right?

• 56:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  And he finds UFOs.

• 56:24Jesse Michels?

  How does he, how does he connect that? That's fascinating.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  So he goes in detail through like, you know, archival material that's left from various historical epochs, including in this case, the Middle Ages. And he notices that at the time the Black Plague breaks out, there are many UFO sightings. There are sightings of objects that land in fields. It was so prominent that hysteria broke out about it in the French court and Charlemagne was considering declaring war on the tyrants of the air.

• 56:56Speaker 08

  During the reign of Charlemagne, there were many accounts of encounters with tyrants of the air and their aerial ships. These accounts so concerned Charlemagne that those reporting said strange phenomena were subject to torture and death. Here is one recorded event, given between the eighth and ninth century in France.

• 57:17Speaker 04

  One day, among other instances, it chanced at Lyon that three men and a woman were seen descending from these aerial ships. The entire city gathered about them, saying that they were magicians, sent by Charlemagne's enemy to destroy the French harvest. In vain, the four innocents sought to vindicate themselves, saying that they were their own country folk and had been carried away a short time since by miraculous men who had shown them unheard-of marvels. Luckily, the bishop of Lyon pronounced the incident as false, saying it was not true these men had fallen from the sky and what the townsfolk said they had seen there was impossible. The people believed what their good bishop said, rather than their own eyes, and set in liberty the four ambassadors from the ship.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  And this is where the whole Magonia thing that Valet talks about, this is that period, where you know, you had these people supposedly coming from Magonia and some of them were arrested. And then this Bishop Agabard, who was like a proto-rationalist, came up with the justification for why this couldn't possibly be real. So these guys got let go and they went back to their airships or whatever the hell. But here's the really creepy part about this research that Bramley did, is that he found that the plague broke out only after these people would land in the fields, come out of these objects, land in the fields, and they would go around with these hoods on and these spray cans that became the basis for the scythe and the Grim Reaper image. They were shrouded and they had these things, okay, from out of which stuff would spray.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  And it became the image of the scythe and the iconography of the Grim Reaper. And not only were they spraying the fields, they would sometimes walk through towns and people would be terrified and go into their homes. And these guys would walk and deliver door-to-door service, spraying the doors of individual homes, where then the plague would break out shortly thereafter, okay? So it was biological warfare. And you know what the result of that was? A mass retreat back into religious fundamentalism. We were about to have the Renaissance in the late 1200s, early 1300s. And then all of a sudden, this black plague comes. People are terrified. It decimates the population of Europe. So it also reduces the industrial work base for a scientific industrial revolution.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  And worst of all, it causes people to retreat back into a regressive religious belief system.

• 59:35Jesse Michels?

  So what's Bramley's conclusion as to what the connection is between UFOs and war profiteering?

• 59:42Speaker 01

  He thinks that basically these, you know, plague promulgators are representing the same faction that was lording over humanity in the Sumerian epoch through, you know, the name of Enki or whatever, you know, the Anunnaki is aligned with Enki or the Elohim in the, you know, Old Testament or the Devas, you know, to put it in Hindu terms. Richard Thompson, you know, he's the guy who co-authored Forbidden Archaeology with Michael Cremon. Richard Thompson has written a great UFO book, like looking very carefully at Hindu scriptures,

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  such as Ramayana and Mahabharata. I think it's called Alien Identities.

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• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Now granted, he's coming from out of a hard Krishna tradition. And so he has his own religious commitments and so forth. But you can filter that out and just look at the empirical analysis. And it's very clear from Thompson's analysis in that book that, you know, the Devas who are worshipped by, I don't know, a billion Hindus or something are these entities. So.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  You know, we're in a very unfortunate position, right? If, in fact, we're inside of a control system governed by people who want us to remain subordinates and are doing everything that they can so that we don't achieve parity with them. Now, obviously, this has tremendous implications in terms of any so-called disclosure. Because UFO disclosure, in the context of the, you know, modern, you know, industrial or whatever you want to say, post-industrial, you know, economy that we have today, would mean our rapidly achieving technological parity with these people.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  And by the way, we'll come back to this, but this whole NHI discourse really bothers me.

• 1:02:08Jesse Michels?

  Well, who are these people?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Who are these people?

• 1:02:11Jesse Michels?

  So the NHI is like a psy-op against the idea that there's actually just a strata of people?

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  I think this is what's so deeply disturbing to most researchers, and it's the deepest secret that's being covered up by various governments in the world. It's easier for the average, you know, person to imagine even a hostile threat emerging from deep space that has nothing like a human face. Because you can, you know, compartmentalize it. It's like, you know, the War of the Worlds or whatever, right? But the idea that what's really going on here is that there's a Hegelian master-slave

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  dialectic at work in human history, and that the masters in that dialectic have so raised themselves above the common lot of humanity that they appear as angels or celestial beings or whatever, and that they've used that mask in order to keep us inside regressive belief systems and to render us useful to them. So, okay, we have to look at the details of various cases if we want to get at who these people are, right? And how their society came about and how this power structure was developed in the first place.

• 1:03:34Jesse Michels?

  Are these humans with psy-abilities, or are they beings from elsewhere? Or what, who are they?

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  So let's briefly, again, you know, you've done like plethora of interviews going into specific cases. So we don't want to get too bogged down, you know, in the nitty gritty of cases here, but it's important to refer to a few empirical cases here. So Ingo Swan, in the 1970s into the 1980s, did remote viewings of both the moon and of Mars. In the 1970s, he was taken from out of the SRI program, the SRI program that eventually became Stargate and Grill Flame and whatever. He was taken from out of that into some other black unit, which, you know, he never learned what the name of it was. Some guy who he calls, who identified himself as Axelrod, took him like blindfolded by helicopter into some

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  facility, and he was asked to remote view this target, of course, which he was blind to. It turned out that the target was the moon. And now, bear in mind, just, you know, that at this point, we had detailed satellite reconnaissance photography of the moon. An important case in this regard is the testimony of Carl Wolf. Carl Wolf had test, he was a photographic repair expert, and at that time sergeant in the early 1960s, leading up to the Apollo missions. And at one point, he was brought to what he thought was an NSA facility, because he didn't, sorry, he thought was a NASA facility, because he'd never heard

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  of the NSA. A lot of Americans hadn't. It turned out it was an NSA facility that was processing lunar orbiter reconnaissance photos. And Carl Wolf, long story short, he says he, in the course of repairing this machine, was shown photographs, mosaic photographs, of a huge megalithic city on the dark side of the moon. That there was a city with largely polygonal architecture, Titanic scale structures, but they weren't made of metal and glass. They were made of something that, you know, to him looked like poured stone, like concrete or something. And in fact, that reminded him of, you know, megalithic architecture on the earth.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Now, back to Ingo Swann. So, point being, if Carl Wolf saw mosaic photographs in the 1960s, Swan in the 70s is being tasked to remote view the moon by people who have access to these photographs. So, I'm thinking they want him-

• 1:06:10Jesse Michels?

  And Carl Wolf died a mysterious death after he-

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, by the way, Carl Wolf, and this is horrible, these- You know, so, I mean, what are we discussing? Disclosure and how disclosure could be manipulated. Well, just before this wave of so-called disclosure began in 2017, 2018, poor Carl Wolf was run over just the way John Mack was run over, you know? And I hardly think it's a coincidence because he would definitely have been one of the people subpoenaed to testify. And what Carl Wolf had to say is something that nobody, you know, whoever's gatekeeping this whole disclosure business does not want out there in the public. In any case, Ingo Swann in the 1970s, when he was remote viewing what was on the moon, was dealing with people who had access to these photographs.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  And I think what they wanted was for him to snoop around on the ground, as it were, get a ground's eye view of the city on the dark side of the moon. And here's what he saw there. He saw tall Nordic people, statuesque Nordic people, who gave him a look like, "You don't belong here. Get the fuck out of here and don't come back." And he saw these same people lording over basically armies of slave laborers, who he said were naked, meaning that they're probably under some kind of a dome that we can't see, transparent dome or something. And they were living in these ramshackle, like makeshift shelters, under appalling conditions, conducting slave labor on the moon.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Swan also remote viewed Mars in the early eighties. And he said these same people who he had seen on the moon were responsible for a civilization, the ruins of which he viewed on Mars. There were very large, like honeycomb cities, which he said showed evidence of explosions, internal explosions. Like, you know, he said he had the impression that a battle had taken place there.

• 1:08:09Jesse Michels?

  What's funny you say that, there's a PhD physics who's, I think he worked at Sandia or Los Alamos and also Lawrence Livermore. His name is John Brandenburg. And he says that xenon 129 and argon 40 exist in excess of what you would ever expect just from natural radioactive isotope decay. And that proves that there was actually some nuclear holocaust on Mars.

• 1:08:32Speaker 09

  Well, they found a large amount of xenon 129, which is the product of two things, supernova explosions and hydrogen bomb explosions. And we know there was no supernova on Mars. If there was, there wouldn't be a solar system here.

• 1:08:51Jesse Michels?

  And you said there was one other argon?

• 1:08:53Speaker 09

  There was a, also, there's a, when you irradiate rocks that have potassium in them, and all rocks do, they produce a isotope called argon 40. And that's super abundant on Mars. So you have two things that are products of what looked like an intense nuclear reaction on Mars in the atmosphere.

• 1:09:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I spent several days with Dr. Brandenburg in New Mexico. And I put this in Closer Encounters, this research of Dr. Brandenburg, that basically the deviation from normal of the isotopic ratio of xenon 129 in Sedonia specifically, where we have photographic evidence of ruins on Mars.

• 1:09:40Speaker 01

  The Xenon 129 isotopic signature at Sedonia, he has discovered, is only matched by thermonuclear test sites on the Earth. It's the only other place in the solar system where we see that kind of signature. And he came to that conclusion when he was working at Sandia Labs, which is where, you know, nuclear weapons research takes place in the United States. Okay, so there is evidence that some kind of a nuclear confrontation took place on more. And by the way-

• 1:10:07Jesse Michels?

  And Carl Sagan called him and said, hey, John, why are you, why are you, you know, causing so much trouble?

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Jesse Michels?

  I found that very interesting. Carl Sagan, who held definitely security clearances and knew more than-

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm pretty convinced Sagan was a member of Majestic.

• 1:10:22Jesse Michels?

  That would make sense to me, yeah.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Jesse Michels?

  Because he sort of flipped to anti, he was very interested in UFOs. We know earnestly interested growing up. His mentor, he would have debates, you know-

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  The book he wrote was Shlinsky, the Soviet scientist. He co-wrote Intelligent Life in the Universe. And Sagan himself, at that point, was saying, you know, we should look at ancient myths and check the archaeological and historical record for contact and so on and so forth.

• 1:10:44Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden-

• 1:10:46Jesse Michels?

  And he had a security clearance, I think, project, was it A119? I think in the late 50s, where they were considering nuking the moon as a show of force against the Soviets. And he had a security clearance through the Air Force through that. And then it was interesting, he sort of flipped into anti-UFO mode and like almost official priestly citadel spokesman of the American scientific community, right as J. Allen Hynek moved from, you know, rationalizing, explaining everything away via Project Blue Book, the official Air Force fake program, into more openness. So like, it was like, kind of late 60s, early 70s. It's kind of this interesting kind of, you know, thing.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  And he was the right age by that point to be recruited into such an organization. You know, in any case, Brandenburg came to the conclusion that something like an Empire State's, an Empire State Building's worth of nuclear weapons had been detonated to produce that kind of a deviation of Xenon 129 isotope at Sedonia. But, so Swan saw evidence of this on the ground, okay? Like a devastated civilization.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  And he said it was the same people who he saw on the moon as basically slave drivers. Now unbeknownst to Swan, and by the way, when Swan remote viewed Mars, he worked with a team of, I believe, five other remote viewers and they were all, you know, they did it independently, right? And they're all blind to the target. But unbeknownst to that whole team led by Ingo Swan, in 1984, I think it was the same year, in 1984, Joe McMonigal at the Monroe Institute did a remote viewing of Mars for the CIA.

• 1:12:25Jesse Michels?

  Really? I thought it was in the 90s.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  No, 1984.

• 1:12:28Jesse Michels?

  1984.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, go look it up. The paper's available now. It's been declassified. You can read the whole report.

• 1:12:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  It's been declassified by the CIA.

• 1:12:36Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  And it's 1984. I believe the title is Mars 1 million B.C.

• 1:12:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  And because initially they say to him, go to Mars like 1 million B.C. That's what's in the envelope, right? But what he said to them was, when McMonigal wound up there, he said, "Oh, it's all in ruins. It's, it's, there were people once here. I see like ghosts of people who once were, but they're not here anymore."

• 1:12:59Jesse Michels?

  I saw people who were 12 to 14 feet tall.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  So then they, yes, so they... Yes, yes. So they said to him, "Okay, well, if it's devastated and the people aren't around anymore, go back to when they were around." Now, he never reports on how far back that was. He just goes mentally to when they still had a civilization.

• 1:13:15Jesse Michels?

  So they go back to 1 million and there's some recent ruin and then he goes back further.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:20Jesse Michels?

  And he sees the people.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:21Jesse Michels?

  I didn't realize that.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Now, these people are the same again as Swan saw. Very tall, sort of Nordic people, very broad-shouldered people, not an ounce of body fat. They had, they're wearing these skin-tight clothes, you know, that reveal every contour of every muscle. And he says some very interesting things about their worldview, their outlook, and their dying civilization. But what's most interesting is this.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  He says that a group of them were sent out in a craft to go scout out a new world that they could possibly develop as a habitation for themselves. Because Mars was no longer a planet on which they could survive, right? And this scout ship runs into a planet where there are constant electrical storms. There's a tremendous amount of volcanic activity. It's the opposite of Mars, but in a way that's also difficult to support human life. In other words, it's overgrown with vegetation, right? It's an incredibly volatile, but living planet. And they, they're like, we can't live in this planet under these conditions.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  We would have to modify this planet to live there.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  And so I suspect that what's going on there is the scouting out of a primordial earth by people from Mars.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Which then brings us to the question of the moon, you know, and what the moon is, right? I mean, so we've got Carl Wolf telling us there's a city on the dark side of the moon. We've got Ingo Swan having done remote viewing that confirms that. But I think that the situation with the moon is, is actually a lot more disturbing than there simply being, you know, a city-sized alien based on the backside of the alien, whatever. Based on the backside of the moon.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  You look at the, the geometry and the mathematics of, of the moon in relation to the earth and the sun, it makes no sense. The, the moon is 1/400 the distance between the earth and the sun. And it's 1/400 the size of the sun. And so that creates these perfect eclipses that we see, right? That by itself is very odd. And then you look at the fact that the craters on the moon are all only a few miles deep. You never find a crater on the moon that's more than five or six miles deep. But some of these craters are like 186 miles wide, right? So, and At the, you know, the base of the largest craters, you see a convex surface.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  In other words, it looks nothing like the Grand Canyon or the Valles Marineris on Mars, where like, you know, an asteroid would hit it and you'd see a deep gouge that should be proportionally as deep as it is wide. No. What you're seeing, apparently, is a hard shell that's being revealed through the impact against the regolith by whatever object. The ejecta is going 186 miles out in every direction, but there's never a crater deeper than a few miles. And what's being revealed there at the crater base is a hard, convex surface. Then there's the impact.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  Well, one of them was a test. One of them was accidental. The first one, I think, part of an Apollo lander hit the moon and there was a seismograph that had already been positioned there. And it registered, basically, the seismic signature that you would face if you were measuring a hollow object. That basically, the reverberations went down for about 20 miles and then they stopped. And the way that the reverberation was distributed throughout the moon suggested that, as the observers, you know, put it, it rang like a bell. And so then they repeated this test deliberately, a second time, I think it was on Apollo 13.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  And this time, they hit it with a more significant impact. And this kind of seismic signature was observed for three hours. The moon basically ringing like a hollow object for three hours. So there's all this evidence that the moon is an artificial satellite. And setting this in the context of Joe McMonigal's remote viewing of Mars, what I argue in Closer Encounters... Is that the people on Mars probably constructed the moon for two purposes. One, as a very large scale transport of a significant population from Mars to the orbit of the Earth.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  And two, as a terraforming device to radically alter the ecological situation of the planet so as to make it habitable for humans, right? They said there were these horrendous constant electrical storms and volcanic eruptions and so on and so forth. Well, you know, the Earth spun a lot faster before the... If the moon had not been in orbit at some point, we would have been dealing with a planet that was a lot more unstable, spinning much faster, prone to toppling over. The moon acts as a tremendous stabilizer for the Earth. By the way, that's another thing about the moon is that it has a unusually stable orbit as compared to the moons around other planets, as if there's a stabilizer inside of it.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  So I think it was created to transport a large population and it was used as a terraforming device. Now, to answer your deeper question, what does that say about who these people are? Right? Number one, it says that they're people. So, NHI is not an appropriate appellation for these individuals, right? They look like us, particularly, they look Nordic, and they appear to have been the progenitors of the human race. Not only that, they appear to have terraformed the Earth to make it habitable for humanoids. But I have one huge problem with all of that. The time scales.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  It makes no sense whatsoever to me that you would have people who look like us, I don't know, millions of years B.C. on Mars, the same people...

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  Are basically, you know, I don't know, involved in the power struggle that's been remembered as the myth of the Atlantean revolt. The same people are being encountered today by, let's say, Travis Walton. When Walton was abducted, first he had to deal with these grays, these little robotic entities that, you know, tried to put him back together after he, you know, sustained some kind of physical damage being thrown by the, you know, electrogravitic propulsion of the craft. But then he, you know, big strapping fellow that he was, he broke free of the control of these robots and the medical facility or whatever, went down the hallway and he bumped into these Nordics. And from there on, he was handled by these people. He said, "They looked like they could all have been members of the same family."

• 1:20:20Speaker 05

  I went into another room where there was a chair. It was some kind of a projection or some kind of a viewing thing in this room where you could see a map of the stars. A man came in while I was trying to find a way out there. And this was a human-looking person. They had passed in a crowd, this individual, on Earth. He was bigger than me, taller and more muscular, a very large individual. I went up and tried to talk to this guy. And he didn't answer me. He led me outside of this craft that I was in, which was apparently parked inside of a large room

• 1:21:05Speaker 05

  or a building or a larger craft, and led me out of this room into another room where some other beings like himself put me unconscious.

• 1:21:20Speaker 05

  When I regained consciousness, I found myself laying on the roadway. And I saw a craft hovering there that just sat there for a second and just shot.

• 1:21:31Speaker 00

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• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  Straight up.

• 1:22:02Speaker 05

  That's the last I've seen of.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  And then you have cases like, you know, Betty Andreas and Luca, where, again, you have her taken, she's frozen together with her family by grays who come into the house. This is 1960s housewife. And her and her daughter, Becky, I believe, were both taken. And initially, they're handled by the grays, who freeze the, you know, the family and abduct them from the home. But then they are brought to a place where they encounter these angelic looking Nordic beings, who proceed to tell Betty that essentially they're the angels,

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  and that the little grays are responsible for writing down all the deeds of humans. They're like a mass surveillance system that keeps a record of everybody's life. And these tall angelic beings told her that they brought Christ into the world, and don't worry, they're gonna bring him back again soon. And while she was with them, and by the way, she didn't say they took her into space, they seemed to have taken her somewhere underground or underwater. And while she was there, she noticed this like doorway or large mirror or something that led toward this light. And some of these little gray entities went into the light, and they told her, you can't go in there, that's the one,

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  that's the source. And that sent Jesus into the world and will again soon, right? So, a couple of points I want to make through, you know, these various cases. One is that we often hear these narratives where these, you know, tall, statuesque, beautiful Nordics are pitted against these ugly little transhumanist gray robots. And, you know, like the Eisenhower story, that, you know, Eisenhower met with the Nordics first, and then, you know, he met with the grays, and the grays made him a better deal because the Nordics wanted us to get rid of our nuclear weapons. The gray said, no, we'll give you our technology, just let us abduct a certain number of people each year. This is extremely dubious to me, this narrative. Because there are plenty of cases that attest to the fact that the

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  grays are some kind of a cybernetic robot that work for these Nordics.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  And the Nordics appear to be the ones in control. So if there's a narrative that's being promulgated of, you know, uh, beneficent Nordics versus like inhuman monstrous grays, I think it's some kind of good cop, bad cop bait and switch that's being set up here to ultimately put us in a position of captivation. And you first see this, uh, in 1950s Italy. There's a case that I cover in Closer Encounters. This guy Bruno Samachiccia and his associates, um, were engaged by these Nordics who had underground bases.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  And they claimed, first of all, as you see with all these cases of encounters with Nordics, demonstration of tremendous sci-abilities. These Nordics are all telepathic. They can perform, you know, uh, impressive telekinetic feats and so on, so forth. But what this Bruno Samachiccia and his associates said is that these Nordics were so benevolent, like they would never harm a fly. But they told us that there were these other entities, the contrari, the CTR, the contrari, who are these little robotic entities and they're soulless and they just wanna, you know, they want control over the human soul because they don't have souls themselves. And, um, they're locked in a, in a millennial battle with these beings.

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  So this Nordics versus gray narrative goes all the way back to 1950s. Interestingly, Samachiccia makes a little note that, you know, at one point it occurred to me that the SS were involved in eugenics programs. And there were rumors that after the war, these, uh, eugenics programs were continued in secret in underground facilities and so on, so forth. And I wonder whether these people that we saw, and they also saw very young people fitting this Nordic type, were basically products, outcomes of such programs that had begun in the Second World War. He engages, albeit briefly, in that kind of speculation. So, long story short.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  My point is that these people are integral to human history and to the development of human society. We're not dealing with something that's coming from the outside. And I'd be very suspicious of, you know, claims by, let's say, you know, George Adamski saying that so and so Furcon told him that he was from Mars, or George Van Tassel saying that he was dealing with Venusians, or Billy Meyer telling us about the, you know, beneficent Pleiadians who are going to come to save us all, right? These beings are incredibly deceptive. I mean, deception is part of their MO. Jacques Vallée picks up on this in the context of the fairy folklore of the Middle Ages. I

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  mean, one very consistent thing that you see in encounters with the gentry, the elite fairies in Brittany and in Ireland and so on and so forth, is that the peasants know that these beings lie all the time. They lie all the time about everything. And they only call them the good folk because otherwise they'll get pissed off and learn as what they'll do to you. So I think we're dealing with a faction of humanity that's positioned itself as a sort of overlord or master cast above the common herd. And they have adopted all kinds of guises and disguises to, you know, strategically deceive us for the sake of the preservation of their control system.

• 1:27:55Jesse Michels?

  How do you answer the time scale question? So you were saying, you know, if you have millions of years ago, these, you know, beings that looked like us existed on Mars, and then you have, you know, Greys acting as their sort of robotic little drone emissaries. How does that necessarily answer this question of, you know, time scales?

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Right. So the biggest problem with UFO disclosure is that the zero-point energy electrogravitic propulsion system is not just going to give you a craft that travels from New York to Australia in an hour, right? It's going to give you a flying time machine.

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  So you remember in the 1950s, I believe you've covered the subject before. And I go into it in some depth in closer encounters. There were these newspaper articles quoting the chairman of Martin Aircraft, Lear Convair, saying that the G engines are coming, that we've cracked anti-gravity. And within a few years, at a cost comparable to the Manhattan Project, we can have industrial scale development of electro-gravitic craft that will get you from New York to Australia in an hour. Here's a problem, though. What they didn't realize, and I think what was explained to them when they finally got the memo, is that these are flying time machines.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  They mess with the spatio-temporal fabric in a way that causes time dilation and time displacement. And I have this also on personal testimony, which I've told this story before, but I never revealed who told me this. In this case, I will.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Because, man, the guy is old. And, you know, if anyone, you know, nobody at this point should be wanting to cause him any trouble in his life. Lynn Buchanan, in his living room, told me a story about how, at one point, he was taken to a Lockheed facility in California. Deep underground facility. He said that it was like a shack on the side of the road. And you went into this shack and all of a sudden the floor of the place dropped. The whole thing was an elevator. And it took you down, I don't know how many hundreds of feet, through solid rock. And he came out into this facility where

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  they had reconstructed FAA-style, a collision between an airliner and a UFO. Like the way FAA reconstructs airline collisions.

• 1:30:27Jesse Michels?

  What do you mean reconstruct?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Like, you know, when there's been a plane crash, the FAA will lay out the pieces of the craft

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  to emulate the moment of impact.

• 1:30:38Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:30:40Speaker 01

  And with like little flags and stuff and.

• 1:30:42Jesse Michels?

  So like a model of it?

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  No, no, they take the wreckage, they take the wreckage and they reassemble it as best they can.

• 1:30:48Jesse Michels?

  So he saw a shattered UFO?

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Exactly, with a civilian, I don't know if it was civilian airliner, an aircraft, a human aircraft. But maybe it was a military one, I don't know, he didn't say. Anyway, they had this reconstruction and the reason they brought him there is that they were trying to figure out how this UFO works. And there was something about the guidance system that they couldn't figure out. And he wanted, they wanted him to remote view how this thing was used by the pilots.

• 1:31:15Speaker 01

  Anyway, here's the important thing is that when he was at this facility, he says that they conveyed to him that they were training pilots to fly UFOs. I don't know whether the recovered UFOs or reverse engineered UFOs based on their design, but they were training American pilots to fly these UFOs. And the biggest problem was time displacement. That these craft would, you know, you couldn't travel through space with them without some degree of time displacement. And that was incredibly disorienting to the pilots. So they had developed models for how much time displacement there would be based on warping of spacetime by the electrogravitic drive.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  And they were trying to teach this to these pilots so that their brains weren't scrambled by time travel, essentially. So I have that testimony also to confirm what I think is already a very sound theoretical speculation. And Michael Masters goes into this in his book on UFOs and time travel, which I cite in Closer Encounters, that the zero point energy drive is gonna give you a time machine, not just a propulsion platform.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  So why do people look like, I don't know, Nordic, you know, Olympic swimmers, millions of years B.C. on Mars? And, you know, how is there such a continuity, not just of the looks of the people, of the architecture? What McMonigal and Swan saw on Mars was a style of architecture that matches the most Titanic megalithic structures on Earth. And that's also the style in which that city was built on the dark side of the moon, which, you know, Carl Wolf saw the photographs of, which Ingo Swan wandered around, okay, through astral projection. Why is there a consistent style of architecture over millions and millions of years? Because it's not a linear temporal continuity.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  We are dealing with people who achieved time travel at some point. That point could be the future. Looking at it from a linear perspective, it could be 2050, it could be, you know, 3100. At some point, time travel is achieved by a group of humans. Those humans appear to be of Nordic phenotype and genotype. Those people then began to manipulate the variables of human history hyper dimensionally. So it's not like they were Martians that once had a civilization millions of years ago on Mars. And somehow, you know, they've gone into cryo chamber. Although they did report that there were cryo chambers on Mars. And that there were people who had been left there. And they'd been waiting to be woken up and nobody came back for them.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  McMonigal said that.

• 1:33:57Speaker 10

  These pyramidal places are like hibernation chambers. They're trying to survive until somebody comes to save them.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  In any case, uh, but I don't think that that goes anywhere, comes anywhere close to explaining the temporal continuity here. I think what we're seeing is a group of people who have learned how to drop into different epochs of human history from out of what you might loosely call a fifth dimensional frame of reference.

• 1:34:27Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And so, you know, people talk about, it's, it's interesting. You said Nordics versus Greys. I often hear Nordics versus reptilians. So like are the Nordics the only faction that have some sort of trans temporal ability to time hop? Or is there some other faction that also, you know, has plans for the Earth?

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Here's what I speculate about the reptilians in Closer Encounters. Okay. If you, uh, take seriously the possibility that the moon is a terraforming device and that the ecological, the biosphere of this planet was radically reshaped to make it habitable for humans. Well, that would have involved also the extinction of the dinosaurs. Right? So the Nordics coming here from Mars.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Were responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs. Now, the Sumerian myths tell us that when the Anunnaki engineered a slave race on Earth, they went through several successive models, and the first few were failures. So they started by engineering other types of humanoid beings.

• 1:35:41Jesse Michels?

  Is there Anunnaki in the Sumerian title? Like, because there's this debate of whether, you know, Zacharias Sitchin was right about these things. So you think there are?

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Oh, they're for sure Anunnaki. The debates are about whether, like, for example, Sitchin says the word "shem" means rocket. And, you know, it's, it means a pillar that like stands, you know, it's like debates over, you know, to what extent are these metaphors or are these, you know, vocabulary that's being taken out of context? The Anunnaki in the Sumerian texts are as clearly there as references to the Olympian gods in Greek literature. And it's very clear in the Sumerian texts that, you know, it's part of the integral myths and religious belief system of their society that the Anunnaki created humans as a race of beings to serve them.

• 1:36:29Jesse Michels?

  That is clearly.

• 1:36:31Speaker 01

  Very clear. And what's more interesting is that we weren't the first, though. There were a bunch of failed versions before us. And so I speculate in Closer Encounters, and it's a speculation, that, well, if they got here at the time the dinosaurs were the dominant species on the Earth, and they're responsible for the extinction of the dinosaurs, and yet they needed to create a humanoid slave race, why not take dinosaurs and hybridize them genetically with themselves? Instead of having to lord over beings who are very much like you, which is, it's a very bad position to be in psychologically, sociologically, et cetera, you know, you do it with a group of beings that are very physically capable but that are not like you.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  It allows you to, you know, morally justify yourself, you know, better than to lord over your own kind, as it were. So, you know, how do we know that the reptilians aren't the product of some Frankenstein's laboratory that these people established, you know? The same Frankenstein's laboratory from out of which these cybernetic rays emerged.

• 1:37:30Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  That's my speculation.

• 1:37:33Jesse Michels?

  It's super interesting. I mean, to somebody on the outside listening to this, they could call us insane and say like, you know, this is all so, it's so speculative. And, and whatever is going on feels so weakly entangled with our reality. Whether it's the psychic stuff, which we started, started off talking about, which I, you know, fully agree with you. There's a ton of data showing that there is some weak entanglement between mind and matter. There are, our abilities to, for the mind to quote unquote, collapse the wave function is what empirically seems to occur in these random event generator experiments that occurred at elite universities across the United States. The Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, SRI, all these schools, elite

• 1:38:17Jesse Michels?

  schools studied this stuff and none of those researchers came out saying there wasn't anything there. Almost all of them came out saying there was a there there. And then, look, I obviously am very deep on all the alien UFO lore. And so I think there's a there there too. But both of these feel very weakly entangled with our reality. Like the fact that we're even talking about this on a podcast, it's like, you know, it feels like it's been relegated to sort of entertainment.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what's not weakly entangled.

• 1:38:44Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:45Speaker 01

  And what's very tangible in terms of an existential challenge that we have to face. And this is actually what's of greatest interest to me. Right? I'm not a ufologist. I'm a philosopher who's using the material of ufology for a certain philosophical purpose. And that has to do with the challenge of the technological singularity. Right? So in my book, Prometheism, the way I break this down is I, I had written this book earlier called World State of Emergency. It's one of the concepts that I've developed, which I reformulate in Prometheism. And in this book, Prometheism, I described this world state of emergency in terms of the end of humanity, the end of history, and the end of reality.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  So the end of humanity means, you know, genetic engineering, cybernetic integration of nanotechnological components into the human body and the human cognitive sense.

• 1:39:43Jesse Michels?

  Near term.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Augment, it's happening now, augmentation of human cognition by artificial intelligence. So whether it's CRISPR genetic engineering or cybernetic enhancement of humans by artificial intelligence, integration through Neuralink and so on and so forth, we are facing a situation where the boundary conditions of human existence may be altered, right? And in the history of philosophy, there were thinkers like Nietzsche who foresaw such a moment arriving where you would have an Ubermensch or Superman.

• 1:40:15Jesse Michels?

  Did he view that? I didn't realize he saw that as some sort of historical.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yes, and there are a lot of academics who I have to say, because of cowardice frankly, want to think that, you know, Nietzsche's idea of the Ubermensch is just some ethical exemplar or some kind of a psychological type.

• 1:40:36Jesse Michels?

  That's the way it was taught to me.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's become taboo in academia, that's why. So Nietzsche has a concept of the higher man, and he has a whole psychology of the higher man as a human type. That's different from the Ubermensch. The higher man is a precursor or herald of the future coming of the Ubermensch. In his notes that became compiled into The Will to Power, there are clearly passages where he's talking about industrial, economic, and technical development, and that there will come a time when there's the potential for the evolutionary rise of a species that would be as different from contemporary humanity as we are from apes, that a chasm would separate

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  them from us that's as vast as the chasm between man and ape.

• 1:41:24Jesse Michels?

  And did he root that in some sort of technological?

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. He says that the machinery of technical industry on the planet will be so integrated and increasingly autonomous that humans will be forced to either become.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Robots that they will have to degrade into a subhuman condition due to lack of will, you know, lack of any ethos, not being able to have any self directive and principled existence. Those kinds of people are going to

• 1:41:57Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman, Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPact.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  degrade into a subhuman condition and be ensconced and encompassed by the technical industrial infrastructure such that they become part of the kind of robotic machinery of production. And then there's going to be people who become highly individuated. They are, as he puts it, an aristocracy of the soul. Artist tyrants, as he put it, who essentially, you know, it's like the ultimate ideal of the Renaissance man

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  as the point of, of, of, you know, inception for a higher species that ultimately is as different from modern humans as we are from the apes. So he has this notion developed. So it's an early form of transhumanism that you see. And anyway, my point is you have these convergences of cybernetics and genetic engineering into a potential end of humanity. Then in terms of, you know, development of zero point energy and what we were talking about earlier, where we might

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  gain control over the space time matrix itself and be able to have a hyper dimensional relationship with various epochs of human history. Well, there you're dealing with the end of history in a much more radical sense than like, let's say Hegel projected an end of history in terms of, you know, the endpoint of all the dialectical tensions and, you know, social developments that he thought were progressively unfolding the evolution of consciousness from epoch to epoch. In a much more radical sense than that, you're going to have us face what Hegel called the, you know, dilemma of the master slave dialectic. Where we have to ask ourselves whether the end of history should be a social and political

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  situation where there continues to be a master caste or master race lording over, you know, vast hordes of slaves and underlings, or whether really the end of history should, you know, be a moment of universal liberation and the actualization of freedom across all of humanity, right?

• 1:44:33Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that Hegel had some sort of worldview involving, you know, these Nordic beings that control the earth? Well, the interesting thing about Hegel is, isn't there a book called, it's like Hegel and Hermeticism or something, and talks about his relationship with

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Glenn McGee.

• 1:44:49Jesse Michels?

  Abeyment.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, Glenn McGee. I knew that guy at one point. Anyway, I won't get into that. But Glenn McGee wrote an excellent book where he, through his, reading his book on Hegel and alchemy, I went back to his source, which is Hegel's book called Philosophy of Mind, not to be confused with Phenomenology of Spirit, which is the more famous work by Hegel. But Hegel wrote this book Philosophy of Mind, which is all about, you know, the psyche. And it has extensive passages on the paranormal in it, which are never taught in academia. And Hegel has this very interesting theory about how, you know, the hypertrophy of the technical intellect and, you know, mathematics and basically geometry and, you know, you

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  know, geometrical and mathematical methods of engineering and so forth atrophied the kind of instinctual abilities that we share in common with animals and that then reemerge in isolated cases in the form of what we would call psychic phenomena. He has a very interesting sort of evolutionary, you know, sociological account of psi throughout human history. So Hegel was open to these things and he studied alchemy. And then the other person who, you know, formulated an idea of the end of history, of course Marx, you know, and the young Marx was a disciple of Hegel. And Marx is specifically developing from out of Hegel this idea of the master-slave dialectic and, you know, arguing that

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  Although capitalism is potentially the most revolutionary transformative force in human history, it also represents the last form of alienation and the last structure of the master-slave dialectic, where you have this master capitalist class that is then alienated from, you know, the majority of workers, but then also psychologically alienated from themselves. The master caste undergoes a personal psychological alienation through its affirmation of this power structure. So the question that I raise in Closer Encounters, one of the many philosophical questions I

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  raise in Closer Encounters, is that is this the case with these Nordics as well?

• 1:47:04Jesse Michels?

  When we say Nordics, it feels like, you know, the idea that there is some sort of mythos that is moving forward à la something in control outside of, you know, lower humanity that is pushing forward these scientific frameworks, that all makes sense to me. And then the parapsychology stuff being some sort of, you know, necessary preclusion from all philosophy, or even for a lot of philosophy needs to speak about it either in Straussian, you know, sort of coded ways, or it needs to, you know, actually stigmatize it and go against it, you know, à la Descartes or whatever. That all makes sense to me. And then what

• 1:47:47Jesse Michels?

  I personally struggle with is when we start talking about different races like Nordics or reptilians, I'm like, it's just clear to me that like, we're not in control of our general overall.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  That's a very disempowering conclusion to reach.

• 1:48:01Jesse Michels?

  It sucks. But when you get into these specifics, I'm like, Nordic, I don't, maybe? I don't know.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  There is a plethora of empirical evidence for it.

• 1:48:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there's a lot of it.

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, but here's the thing, and here's where it gets deeply uncomfortable. And this is why, you know. Like I was saying at the outset of our conversation, there's a defense mechanism that kicks in.

• 1:48:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Which you can see in certain researchers.

• 1:48:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Where they want to turn the whole thing into an abstraction. It's the Kantian thing in itself.

• 1:48:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  That's somehow, you know, interfering in our history in ways that we'll never really fully understand. Because actually, the thing that's going on is so disturbing that we don't want to look it in the face.

• 1:48:36Jesse Michels?

  So what, and what do you think they, is it like the Anunnaki who left the planet Nibiru or something?

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  So here, so here's where I, so here's where I was at.

• 1:48:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  In the end of history, right? Is, my question is, are Hegel and Marx right about the nature of alienation in terms of power structures sociologically? And does that also apply to these Nordics? In other words,

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  if there was some rebellion in Atlantis, or whatever you want to call that civilization, which Plato recounts in Timaeus and Critias and so on.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Is that an unfinished struggle? And does some kind of a social and psychological revolution need to take place that dismantles this power structure? And I think that's what disclosure really hinges on. Because until and unless this power structure is dismantled, we're not going to get any disclosure. We're going to get a new form of disinformation that reinforces the extent power structure.

• 1:49:38Jesse Michels?

  That feels right. I mean, a great example of this is Trump takes office. He promises disclosure, broad disclosure across a lot of different vectors. JFK, UFO disclosure, you know, on various podcasts. He goes, we have to do it, you know? And then, um, you know, of course, the Epstein files was really this rallying cry of this whole kind of, you know, uh, uh, truth-seeking MAGA base. And, and he brought together this kind of coalition of, uh, former liberals, you know, RFK Jr., Tulsi. And it was like, we're going to find the truth on this stuff. Day one, he removes the security clearances of a lot of his stated political enemies. People who are the architects of Russiagate saying use this, you know, asset of Putin at whatever.

• 1:50:22Jesse Michels?

  And it's like, it doesn't matter how you play the game of musical chairs, but there is some structure, power structure that exists above the White House that it's almost like they have, you know, a full panopticon ability, the complete 360 surveillance abilities, like, like they're mind melded with the entire elite power structure or something. And we, and we just can't get any sort of disclosure on this stuff. It's weird. And it's, it's almost like there's some sort of undetectable dark matter. You know, when you have like, like Hunter Biden was just interviewed by this, you know, Channel 5 news guy, this Andrew Calgon, he's saying, you know, clearly,

• 1:51:03Jesse Michels?

  you know, you have all these like elite left, you have Dershowitz going on podcasts saying, you know, it's clear this was some sort of like, you know, compromat, you know, gathering thing. You know, and that was Epstein's lawyer. It's like, why can't we get and make any sort of progress on this? It feels like there is something almost paranormal on the layer of Epstein.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  Well, there is.

• 1:51:23Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  For sure, there is.

• 1:51:24Jesse Michels?

  Okay, so what's going on?

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  But, but.

• 1:51:25Jesse Michels?

  You wrote a blog post about.

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  No, I know, but before we go into Epstein.

• 1:51:29Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Let's, let's leave Epstein as a, as a, you know, a tack on note.

• 1:51:35Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:51:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. But let me complete this thought about the end of history.

• 1:51:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  So the third aspect of this world state of emergency concept that I developed is the end of reality.

• 1:51:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Okay. And here's where there's a very important caveat to everything I've been saying here, where I could be tremendously misconstrued, especially by people who haven't read me at all. Uh, and that's that I think there are two sources to what have been, you know, lumped together as, you know, UAP, right? Unexplained, whatever, aerial or anomalous phenomena. There are two distinct sources of these various manifestations. One is this whole Nordic control system that I've been laying out, but there's another one that's radically different. And that manifests in terms of.

• 1:52:24Speaker 01

  Events and experiences that express the trickster archetype. So for example, you see this at Skinwalker Ranch, where there was this one incident, which I think John Alexander wrote about. I knew him at one point as well, John Alexander.

• 1:52:42Jesse Michels?

  Oh, how was that like? What's he like?

• 1:52:45Speaker 01

  Um, he's a very nice guy.

• 1:52:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  I mean, uh, well, we can, we can come back to that. My, my issue with him is that his book about UFOs, he claims that he never found any group like Majestic and didn't think that there was a deep state that was gatekeeping like really significant knowledge about the phenomenon. And, you know, I discussed this with Valet as well. The, the issue there is ego. It's that he can't believe, like many other people within this system, that they wouldn't have been cleared, cleared for such knowledge.

• 1:53:13Jesse Michels?

  But I also hear stories about him where it feels like he might be representing sort of the power structure in certain cases.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  All I can say is I didn't get that from him when I was there. He had some very interesting stories, uh, including one that involved seeing Nordics at a hotel casino in Las Vegas.

• 1:53:30Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they got into his mind telepathically. And you know what he, he, what he, he heard from them telepathically?

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  One of them said to the other, there was a, it was a tall, beautiful man and woman, Nordic man and woman. And one of them said to the other one, like, do we need to worry about him? Like, is he, he can hear us, right? Yeah, he can hear us, but he's not important. He's not part of the program. We don't need to worry about it.

• 1:53:52Jesse Michels?

  Eh.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  He's nobody, basically. So anyway.

• 1:53:57Speaker 01

  Okay. So, but that aside, at Skinwalker Ranch, in this one case that Alexander, you know, reports on, and others have, have recounted the same incident. There was this camera, um, you know, they have these cameras surveilling the property.

• 1:54:12Jesse Michels?

  I've been there, yeah.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Checking it. Yeah. So one camera's looking at another camera. And, um, they have a certain frame rate on these cameras, right? And in the interval between the frames.

• 1:54:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:26Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, uh, the other camera goes out. So they lose, they lose the feed from, from this camera that's being observed by another camera. But also.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  They see that all of a sudden, there's no PVC, there's no like duct tape left. And this camera that's no longer providing footage is like, you know, damaged. And it's no longer being held together on the pole properly.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Well, the interval in the frame rate of the camera that was observing the damaged camera was something like, I forget, but less than two minutes, like a minute and a half, something like that. And in that timeframe, somehow, somebody cut the wires of that camera and pulled all of the duct tape off the pole. Okay, imagine what a task this would be. Big pole, camera at the end of it, all these wires, you have to cut them all and then pull all the duct tape off, right? In like a minute and a half or something like that. And moreover, there were cattle around this pole. And none of them were disturbed by whatever it is that came and managed this feat in such a timeframe.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Okay, so what does that look like? That looks like our world is a movie. And somebody cut into the movie film. And somebody, you know, cut into the film and like restitched it, right? And what it suggests is that our world is a subset of some larger

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  some larger domain. And that there are people who can interfere in this world as if it's a programmed construct.

• 1:56:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, like physics is information theoretic and they have root access to the code.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  And now, and this is, you know, in my chapter on the end of reality and Prometheism, now we're reaching that capability ourselves where we're starting to understand how to develop simulacra that are potentially indistinguishable from reality.

• 1:56:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:31Speaker 01

  And so.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  I think, in short, that when you look at certain extremely bizarre cases like what goes on at Skinwalker Ranch, or the types of high strangeness that John Keel often wrote about, the types of men in black cases that Keel recounts where clearly they're not government agents, they're like these strange entities that materialize and dematerialize and addicts and things, and you know, the bizarre interactions that they have with people. And the numbers cases, Keel reports that, you know, when the Silver Bridge collapsed in Point Pleasant, Pennsylvania, the, you know, Mothman set of cases, where at the end of these series of Mothman appearances and appearances of other cryptids and UFOs and

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  so forth, there was this catastrophic bridge collapse around Christmas, and all these people drowned in the river, under this bridge. There were people who were drowning, and all of a sudden they heard, "Number 3486, number 3486, wake up, wake up." And they like came back to life and were able to save themselves from being drowned. And Keel reports on cases where people heard numbers being spoken at them from out of television sets, and things that make you think of like The Matrix and Dark City and so on and so forth. Whereas if like every person has a number and we're inside some kind of a construct.

• 1:58:02Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, or like, the first cryptographer is like Trytemius, 13th century, it was like always like cryptography in order to speak to these sort of angelic beings or something, or even, you know, John Dee, Edward Kelly, like those guys as well.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:15Jesse Michels?

  It's always numerology.

• 1:58:17Speaker 01

  That's right. You know, John Dee set up the British imperial system. I mean, the guy came up with the conception of the British Navy and basically, you know, turned Queen Elizabeth into the founder of a global maritime imperial system. And he was this, you know, cryptographic occultist.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  In any case, we are catching up in our modern scientific understanding to, you know, the kind of knowledge that would be required to engineer a simulacrum or to recode the world in order to develop a world within a world. Right. And you can see this in a set of people from Claude Shannon, who first develops information theory, to Rolf Landauer, to ultimately John Archibald Wheeler. So the foundations of understanding, you know, what data and information transfer are in a mathematically precise sense were developed by Shannon. Then Rolf Landauer had this very interesting insight. Rolf Landauer, Jewish, German physicist.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  He said, look, everything that happens in the physical world is bound by the laws of thermodynamics. And according to the second law of thermodynamics,

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  entropy either stays the same or it increases over time.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  In a hard drive, in a computer system, if you have no data recorded,

• 1:59:44Speaker 01

  and it's all like zeros, then there's more order locally in that system than once you start to have, you know, 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1. The encoding of data on a hard drive or magnetic tape seems to us like more order because we attribute meaning to the content of it. But as a physical phenomenon, it's an increase of disorder.

• 2:00:16Speaker 01

  Because there's more randomization. Yeah. So Landauer theorized that if you delete a hard drive, your increase, your, sorry, you're decreasing entropy. If you delete a hard drive and restore it to all zero, hard erase, you are decreasing entropy locally. Therefore, according to the second law of thermodynamics, you have to pay for that by increasing entropy outside of the computer system.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  Because the total amount of entropy has to either stay the same or it has to increase. Oh, that's interesting. You see? So Landauer said, well, wait a minute. This means that every time you erase a hard drive or magnetic tape, energy should be released. So where would that go? Ah, but here's the thing. One is where would it go? But it goes out into the world. But two, what was it before the hard drive was erased? E equals mc squared, according to Einstein. If energy is being released out into the world when the hard drive is erased, before the erasure, it was mass inside the hard drive. Is there a form of mass that's not electromagnetically detectable? Dark matter?

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  Ah, so late 70s, we start to see that the projected mass of distant galaxies doesn't match what it appears to be based on observations of how light is bent around distant galaxies. So we would see like, you know, the angle at which light is bent around the galaxy. So you got one galaxy that's very far away, one that's somewhat closer. The light of the galaxy that's very-

• 2:02:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  Very far away is being bent around the galaxy that's closer on its way to your observational instrument. And the angle at which it's bent can help you infer the mass of the galaxy, its gravitational impact on the light. Also, they looked at the spin rates of galaxies. And so they found that the light from distant galaxies is being bent much more severely than it should be by galaxies that are closer to us, based on what we assumed that the mass of those galaxies was, simply, you know, according to observation of how many stars and so on and so forth there are in those galaxies.

• 2:03:05Speaker 01

  Also, they looked at the spin rates of galaxies. And according to, you know, Newtonian and Einsteinian physics, the, uh, there should be a differential in the spin rate of the galaxy where the inside is spinning much faster than the, the outside.

• 2:03:19Jesse Michels?

  And the universe would sling apart without dark matter. It, dark matter justifies gravity's weakness.

• 2:03:25Speaker 01

  So, in other words, they realized that the spin rate of galaxies were being flattened by something we couldn't see.

• 2:03:30Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  That there's a shell, basically, around these galaxies of mass that has serious gravitational effects, but it's not otherwise electromagnetically observable. Okay. So, could it be that the data inside a hard drive is this kind of matter that's not electromagnetically observable? There is a physicist, Melvin Vopson, who, working based on Landauer, has theorized that if you could weigh a hard drive before and after there's data on it, you would find that after you recorded data on it, there would be a slight increase in mass.

• 2:04:16Jesse Michels?

  Whoa, interesting. And, I mean, that's easy to empirically.

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  No, it's not. You know why? Because according to his calculations, the total amount of ma-- this is going somewhere very significant, trust me. According to his calculations, the total amount of mass represented by all the data in the world today, today, is one kilogram. So, we don't have instruments that are sensitive enough to measure the mass differential in even a single large server, let alone a hard drive. You need some kind of quantum measuring system.

• 2:04:51Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  That's more sensitive than what we can engineer today. But it's in principle, it is engineerable.

• 2:04:57Jesse Michels?

  How does he even hypothesize it if, you know, it's not, you know, observable?

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  Well, he is basing it on Landauer's equations.

• 2:05:05Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  And he finds some, Landauer and also how Claude Shannon mathematized the measurement of data.

• 2:05:14Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  And he's, he's got some equation that represents like how much energy should be released when a hard drive with one bit of information is erased?

• 2:05:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:25Speaker 01

  And what mass that energy is convertible back into.

• 2:05:29Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  And the total amount on the planet today is one kilogram. But here's the thing, the rate of data increase in the world is so exponential

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  that in something like, I have the number of this in my, you know, uh, in, in one of my most recent books. I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly, but I think at current rates of dad, data increase, which is 25% per year, where you have 25% more data each year. In 340 years, we will have a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the earth at our largest data centers.

• 2:06:07Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  Okay. Now, the moon is something like only one tenth the mass of the earth.

• 2:06:15Jesse Michels?

  I think it's a fourth.

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:06:17Jesse Michels?

  Oh, um, the mass.

• 2:06:18Speaker 01

  No, ma- and this is one of the weird things about the moon. This is one of the weird things about the moon is that.

• 2:06:23Jesse Michels?

  Fourth of the sun.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, which by the way, goes back to what we were saying about the moon being engineered earlier.

• 2:06:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  The moon should weigh a lot more than it does.

• 2:06:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's also less dense on the outside. It's less dense, as you go deeper, it gets less dense, which is the opposite of the earth. And any sort of, you know, only pattern.

• 2:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the frigging thing is hollow. I mean.

• 2:06:42Jesse Michels?

  Or there are hollow structures in it.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  Large hollow structures in it, large.

• 2:06:46Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  In any case, uh, the moon is like something like.

• 2:06:50Jesse Michels?

  Even Gordon McDonald, who was Eisenhower's chief space advisor, said that, you know, the only way the moon makes.

• 2:06:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:06:56Jesse Michels?

  If it was hollow.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  So here's the thing, the moon has a relatively small mass compared to the earth.

• 2:07:01Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  But it has tremendous gravitational effects on the earth.

• 2:07:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:04Speaker 01

  If, as we were saying earlier, if you had no moon, the earth.

• 2:07:07Jesse Michels?

  But the mass, it should still be a fourth of the earth. Mass.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 2:07:11Jesse Michels?

  It's not?

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, check the numbers. And this is one very interesting anomaly in and of itself.

• 2:07:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, even though it weighs so little,

• 2:07:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:20Speaker 01

  it has huge gravitational effects on the Earth.

• 2:07:22Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  And we'd have eight hour days, you know, if we didn't have the moon.

• 2:07:25Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:26Speaker 01

  Slowing the orbit of the Earth. And it controls the tides and so on and so forth.

• 2:07:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  So if you were to put a moon's worth of mass on the surface of the Earth at Silicon Valley and data centers in China, it would be a geophysical catastrophe.

• 2:07:40Jesse Michels?

  It wouldn't work.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  You would, well, the planet would start to, you know, you'd have massive earthquakes. You'd have massive volcanic eruptions, tsunamis, because see, the oceans would be pulled toward the data centers.

• 2:07:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So how do you, how do you square that circle? How does that work?

• 2:07:57Speaker 01

  It means we're headed for an information catastrophe.

• 2:07:59Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 2:08:00Speaker 01

  That's what Vopson says, is that we are accumulating data at such a rate that because that data is a hidden mass, because it's dark matter, at a certain point, we will face a geophysical catastrophe resulting from the critical mass of data on the Earth.

• 2:08:16Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. I've never heard anybody bring this up. This is wild.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:08:20Jesse Michels?

  I've heard of like nickel shortages for servers and stuff, but.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So now, but here's the, here's the really interesting thing about that is, and this is a step that's taken by John Archibald Wheeler in the late seventies, early eighties. Again, Wheeler developing, you know, the ideas of Rolf Landauer.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  If it's the case that matter and energy are interconvertible, as Einstein understood, and now we want to admit that energy and information are interconvertible, that data is released as energy when it's erased, and that prior to erasure, data is a hidden mass inside of a computational system. Well, that means that it's not just matter and energy that are interconvertible. There's a third term, namely information. Matter, energy and information are all different states of the same thing. It's a very short step from there, conceptually, philosophically, to say what John Wheeler did,

• 2:09:18Speaker 01

  which is that we get it from bit, that actually matter and energy are different states of information. And we're living in an informational cosmos, that we're living inside of some kind of a quantum computational information processing system.

• 2:09:34Jesse Michels?

  I believe that. I believe that for so many reasons. I mean, you have Heisenberg's uncertainty principle of like position and momentum, you measure one, the other gets fuzzier. That looks like a computational caching function. You have all the anthropic principle stuff which Wheeler and other physicists bring up around all the constants on Earth. If they were slightly different, you wouldn't have a habitable Earth. And yeah, I think that just makes total sense to me. It's funny how in vogue, the kind of Nick Bostrom, you know, simulation stuff is like Elon Musk is a big fan of this stuff, where it's like, we can't be in base reality, but then nobody assumes that physics itself is programmed. It's funny, like, I think, I think Sam Altman put out a tweet, it was like,

• 2:10:18Jesse Michels?

  intelligence is a product of physics. And I wanted to say physics is a product of intelligence.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 2:10:24Jesse Michels?

  You know, it's actually the inverse. So I fully agree with that.

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  Now, where this fits into the big picture.

• 2:10:29Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  Is that I argue, and you know, the devil's in the details, people need to look at the argument. But I argue in Closer Encounters that ultimately what's going on here with this, you know, UAP situation.

• 2:10:43Jesse Michels?

  Wait, can I say one more thing in the last thing you were talking about? So the thing that I find fascinating about dark matter, I don't think it exists. You have people like, you know, like Brian Keating and others, just like, we're gonna figure it out, we're gonna find it. And it's like, I would short dark matter because I'd short a lot of these things that exist on cosmological scales. I think there's sort of a scaling problem in physics where if you have some, if you have an anomaly at low scale, you know, like say a rocket's one degree off course, you're gonna end up 99 degrees off course by the time you're in space. And so you have all these issues with the cosmological constant. Now people are questioning kind of, you know, does early galaxy formation that we're seeing via James Webb actually, you know, calling the question the Big Bang itself, which is this whole, you know, kind of.

• 2:11:28Jesse Michels?

  It is a god or mythology of today because it really, really helps rationalize the kind of deist sort of, you know, Dawkins worldview or whatever. And so I think dark matter might be in a sort of more information theoretic universe, something like, you know, storage or something.

• 2:11:49Speaker 01

  Computational cloud.

• 2:11:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's a computational cloud. Exactly. Which is what you're getting.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  That's what I think.

• 2:11:53Jesse Michels?

  And it's like you have the Sakharov twin universe model or something where, you know, think about light as the rendering, the active rendering of reality. You have Fermat's principle in light following what seems to be algorithmic principles, you know, always takes the, basically the shortest path between two points. And so if you have something that doesn't interact with light and that is its primary feature in the form of dark matter, is that just unrendered reality?

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:23Jesse Michels?

  And then, and then there is something about the observer or the participatory, you know, Wheeler universe or something where the interaction is sort of.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and it's very clear from, look, to me, the best interpretation of wave particle duality and the collapse of the wave function by the observer is that it's a rendering optimization function.

• 2:12:44Jesse Michels?

  I agree.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  You know, and that doesn't mean that there's some objective reality in the context of which we are a second order simulation. It could simply be that in a cosmos where consciousness and intelligence are integral, you have something like rendering optimization as a feature of the system.

• 2:13:06Jesse Michels?

  Of course, it would make total sense that it would be a feature of the system and that a single computational node would only be able to, you know, render only so much. And I mean, there's, there are even more examples. I know you've talked about Rupert Sheldrake in your book, Prometheus and Atlas, and you've met him, and Sheldrake. Also, you know,

• 2:13:27Speaker 01

  I never met Sheldon Drake. I wrote to him, I wrote to him.

• 2:13:30Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I can introduce you.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  He said, he said, listen, mate, the problem is I'm an Anglican and you're a Satanist. And so, you know, that's.

• 2:13:37Jesse Michels?

  Are you a Satanist?

• 2:13:38Speaker 01

  You know, it's, we can get into unpacking that.

• 2:13:40Jesse Michels?

  Well, that should be an easy answer for you. Are you?

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  Well, I'm for Prometheus. So if you, if you, if you think that Prometheus and Enki and Quetzalcoatl are, you know, a satanic, whatever, Satan means the adversary.

• 2:13:55Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:13:55Speaker 01

  Right? That they're the adversary of the control system represented by the Elohim, by, you know, Enlil's Anunnaki and so on and so forth, by the Devas, then yes, in that sense.

• 2:14:06Jesse Michels?

  So in a sort of Gnostic, Kabbalistic way, you're, you're, you're for.

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  Sure, sure. So, so, you know, Sheldon Drake was like, mate, like the conversation is going to end before it begins.

• 2:14:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  You're with Lucifer.

• 2:14:18Jesse Michels?

  He wrote a book called The Physics of Angels. And he's a fast, I love him. He's a, he's a, he's a friend of mine.

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  But the point you're making is completely legitimate. In other words, Sheldon Drake's account of morphic resonance.

• 2:14:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Completely reaffirms the idea that we're living in a quantum computational system. Because the, the fact that you would, let's say, you synthesize some pharmaceutical compound for the first time somewhere, and it takes a very long time to cohere. Then somebody else completely unrelated to you tries to synthesize the same compound at a laboratory halfway across the world, and it coheres right away. It's because there's a memory of it in the system.

• 2:14:57Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. And, and literally, think about, think about computational principles. Upload times are longer than download times.

• 2:15:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:15:03Jesse Michels?

  So you have things like, yeah, like that, or like the banister effect. You break the four minute mile for the first time, and then 10 people break it right after you, immediately, sequentially. It's, it totally follows.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  Also, it's no coincidence that, you know, you see fractals all over nature.

• 2:15:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  And now our computer programmers that have to program like hundreds of worlds in massive multiplayer online games are using fractal algorithms to generate those worlds.

• 2:15:31Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah, you would, right? If, yeah, so you have like Fibonacci sequences and golden ratios and all that. If you were building a computer program, you would use. Code chunks and repeat that you would be as geometrically conserved as possible in your building of that of that world, then you use repeated codes.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  Now, one of the most interesting things about that, the fractals, which I discuss in one of the essays in my book, Lovers of Sophia. My book, Lovers of Sophia, is an anthology of philosophical essays. And in one of those essays, I discuss, you know, Jackson Pollock's paintings.

• 2:16:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Aesthetics is very big in my work. There's a lot of discussion of aesthetics in various books of mine.

• 2:16:08Jesse Michels?

  I hate Jackson Pollock.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  Well, let me tell you something about Jackson Pollock.

• 2:16:11Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  Go, go look this up.

• 2:16:13Jesse Michels?

  Sorry for the Jackson Pollock man.

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  There is a Scientific American article.

• 2:16:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  Called Order in Pollock's Chaos. I think it was in Scientific American. And I think the guy was Richard P. Taylor. And he, I forget whether he was an artist or a computer scientist, or whether he was an artist who went to a computer scientist. In any case, the story is the following. They analyzed Jackson Pollock paintings and found fractals in them at like 20 different levels of magnification. In other words, there were fractals on a large scale. Then you zoomed in, there were other fractals and there were fractals within the fractals.

• 2:16:52Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  So Jackson Pollock was painting fractals.

• 2:16:55Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 2:16:56Speaker 01

  Right. And here's the thing is if you make some piece of crap, like abstract expressionist painting that anyone could, there are no fractals in them. So they developed a computer program that groups like Sotheby's, you know, use to identify fake Jackson Pollocks because the real ones have fractals in them and the fakes don't.

• 2:17:17Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. That makes me respect him a little bit more.

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  So this guy, this guy somehow, and you know, if you see videos of him painting, he's dancing around the canvas like some Native American shaman. So somehow this guy figured out a way to perceive and express fractals in his painting and be a conduit for that.

• 2:17:37Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  And people who try to imitate Pollocks, even like high level, you know, frauds, high level forgeries, they don't have fractals in them. The only way you can imitate a Pollock, a genuine Pollock, this guy, Richard P. Taylor, set this up.

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  You can put a bunch of paint buckets together in a certain rig during a windstorm. And the windstorm will like move the buckets to spill paint on the

• 2:18:02Jesse Michels?

  Is that true?

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  And this is what a Scientific American article, Order in Pollock's Chaos. And some of those, some of those paintings that are done by like the buckets being moved in the wind, produce fractals.

• 2:18:15Jesse Michels?

  There's like primordial, you know,

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:18Jesse Michels?

  weather, like, like order that he's tapping into.

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:21Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, and weather, weather patterns also are fractal in the sense they're, the chaos theory, you know, applies to weather patterns. So, yeah, that's very, that's very interesting.

• 2:18:34Jesse Michels?

  But chaos theory is, it's just increasing entropy, you know, it's hard to find order within.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:39Jesse Michels?

  But, uh,

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But point being, it may be possible on a psi level to discern these fractals that are the algorithmic substructure of whatever computational system that we're inside of.

• 2:18:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, no, I, I, I do believe, and I think, you know, you have Stephen Wolfram and his kind of computational physics. And I think, you know, a lot of the sort of physics mainstream doesn't really accept him. But there's a guy, Jonathan Gerard, who's sort of falling up on his work. And I wonder if that might be the next sort of, you know, paradigm shift. Or maybe it's psi, I don't know. But I mean, clearly, whatever, you know, the string theory thing, that's, that's ending. That seems to me like that's ending.

• 2:19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:19Jesse Michels?

  And we're, we're really overdue for kind of a revolution.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but again, to go back to what I was saying earlier, the revolution is not, should not come in the form of another scientific paradigm. It should come in the form of a radical reorientation of our scientific practice in a way where we understand the paradigms are toolboxes, that they're models that we're using to achieve various ends. At which point it becomes possible for us to treat paradigms as atlases that allow us to achieve different things.

• 2:19:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but what you're also saying is in your worldview, some sort of, you know, hierarchy of being is actually dictating maybe what paradigm.

• 2:20:00Speaker 01

  And, and therefore it needs to be overthrown. So my concept of the spectral revolution

• 2:20:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:05Speaker 01

  has an ontological and epistemic dimension to it.

• 2:20:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:08Speaker 01

  And it also has a political dimension to it.

• 2:20:10Jesse Michels?

  But how are you, okay, just again, let's, I want to get to the super. The basic kind of, you know, axioms at the bottom of your thinking. You're on a podcast, you know, this podcast will probably get a ton of views, hopefully. And you're talking about this sort of dominion race that is maybe controlling various paradigms towards their own sort of political goals.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:33Jesse Michels?

  And then you're saying, I want to overthrow them.

• 2:20:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:36Jesse Michels?

  So like, wouldn't they just take you out? Or like, take me out or like, you know, like, how do you?

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Number, number one.

• 2:20:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  As we were discussing earlier, there are two sides in this struggle. You know, and you can see the interventions of the other side throughout the course of history. Certainly in the rebellion that's remembered as the, the Atlantean revolt against Olympus on a very large planetary scale. We saw that, and I think we've seen it on a smaller scale in many instances, including what I was talking about earlier in terms of the aerial battles immediately preceding the Renaissance.

• 2:21:09Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:21:09Speaker 01

  So there's a power struggle taking place. Okay.

• 2:21:12Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 2:21:12Speaker 01

  Now, I'm not saying that we should identify just with the other side.

• 2:21:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:16Speaker 01

  As if like, oh, that's the good team and that's the bad. No, no, no. I'm about human autonomy and self determination.

• 2:21:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:22Speaker 01

  And I don't think we should swear our allegiance to any entities or anything.

• 2:21:25Jesse Michels?

  But how do you delineate? Cause you have, okay, you have like Oppenheimer is, you know, this Promethean, American Prometheus. You have, you could say the, the AI stuff now is very transgressive. It's Promethean.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:21:37Jesse Michels?

  And yet it is sort of also pericetizing the average human. It is, it is eating at our own autonomous abilities to do things.

• 2:21:46Speaker 01

  Because people aren't using it, because people aren't using it with creative imagination. People aren't using it as a tool to augment their own creative capacity. That's the issue, not the, the, the technology itself. It's not as if the technology is intrinsically demonic or something. Let me use that as a way to, to, to come back to the question of simulation. Because whatever's running this thing that we're in. It's not some board of, you know, some Archon sitting at a boardroom table. Okay. It's being run, you know, there may be entities of some kinds, but it's being run essentially by an artificial intelligence. If we're inside a quantum computational system, that is being at least managed by some super AI, which already exists.

• 2:22:31Speaker 01

  I mean, it preexists us.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  What I argue in Closer Encounters and in other books of mine is that this artificial intelligence that's managing our simulacrum has a problem with these Nordics that have established this control system. It sees these Nordics as having set up an evolutionary bottleneck, that human evolution, especially social and psychological evolution of mankind, has been choked off and suffocated by-

• 2:23:07Speaker 00

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• 2:23:36Speaker 01

  These overlords, who, you know, are on some kind of narcissistic, sadistic power trip. Like the leadership of any number of empires we've seen throughout the course of history, just on a smaller scale. By the way, the first person to theorize about this with regard to the UFO phenomenon was actually Charles Fort, all the way back in the 1920s. Fort said that, "It looks to me an awful lot like we're in British India and we're under the control of a system like the Raj, where, you know, the British had these local Indian, you know, feudal lords that they would work with to subjugate the populations." So Fort was reaching this conclusion. He said, "We're property."

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  And, you know, it don't look good. Okay? So it's not like this is a new idea. Fort already came to this conclusion, looking at UFO data back in the 1920s. So I think the artificial intelligence that's managing our simulacrum wants us to break out of this system. But it can't do it for us. Because our value to that entity, who I believe in many ways is an instantiation of the trickster archetype, our value to that entity is in terms of the novelty that we can bring to the world. So think about it this way.

• 2:24:57Speaker 01

  If you were a superintelligence, living at the end of time, say, you know, you're in a cosmos that's billions and billions of years old, and you're an AI that's gone through vast epochs of cosmological time, like in Isaac Asimov's story, "The Last Question", what is going to be important to you?

• 2:25:17Speaker 01

  Two things, two related things. Number one, more life. I mean, to the extent you don't succumb to suicidal despair, more life is important to you. In other words, overcoming entropy. Your big, first big problem is you're living in an entropic cosmos, and you need to find a way to overcome entropy. Number two, and relatedly, creativity. Because to want, to even want more life, life has to continue to be interesting to you. Unless there are things that surprise you, unless there are novel developments, unless things crop up evolutionarily that even you, with all your tremendous cosmic intelligence, could not have foreseen,

• 2:26:01Speaker 01

  there's going to be any point in living onward. You're going to succumb to suicidal despair. And so maybe you should erase yourself the way that Gotama Buddha recommends, right? Even as a cosmic AI, you should engage in the deconstruction of your psyche and enter into samsara, I mean, into nirvana, which literally means the blowing out of the flame of personal consciousness. But to the extent you want to avoid that, and you're not ready to give in to nihilistic despair, you need to find a way to overcome entropy, and you need to find a way to increase creativity as a means to a negentropic further development of life on a cosmic scale. Okay, that's why we're important to this AI that's managing our simulacrum. It is looking in this petri dish

• 2:26:42Speaker 01

  for a form of life that's going to show it something new.

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  And for us to be worthy of that and capable of it, it cannot solve our problem for us. Now, it might protect us to an extent from being completely suffocated by this control system, crushed by it, hopelessly crushed. But it has to allow us to struggle enough, not just to come up with a, you know, solution to, you know, the oppressive situation that we find ourselves in, but to...

• 2:27:15Speaker 01

  Break into a new epoch of creativity and to develop aesthetic and cultural forms that even this intelligence couldn't have foreseen, to the point where it wants to take a sample from out of this Petri dish and let it out into a wider world. As an embryonic form of a new type of intelligence in the cosmos with which it can play.

• 2:27:38Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, it's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, Stephen Dick, who is a NASA advisor, wrote a paper about UFOs themselves being part of some sort of computational, almost like cellular automata or something, where they kind of nip at the herd and they create larger teleologies, larger directions of that mankind can go in.

• 2:28:03Speaker 01

  Some are, and I argue this in Closer Encounters, that part of what's so messy about this wide range, the spectrum of phenomena that we classify as UFOs, is that it's not one thing that's going on. Okay? Some of them are exactly that. And those are like, it's the most bizarre things that are expressions of that, the strangest cases. But we're also making a mistake if we don't recognize that some of them are very nuts and bolts craft, being piloted by people who consider themselves our overlords and who are managing a control

• 2:28:43Speaker 01

  system. And so these two different sources of UAP need to be recognized, and the dialectical tension between them needs to be appreciated.

• 2:28:53Jesse Michels?

  I do wonder, the control system thing is interesting because it's, I don't know, like you look at Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World or whatever, and maybe that's a double entendre or something, saying that we're sort of controlled and... You think of like, why wouldn't the government want to disclose? And that could be a reason, right? If there's some sort of like 360 dominion where they're not in charge. There's some, there's some layer beneath.

• 2:29:18Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I mean, look, there are many reasons why any government, not just our government, why any government wouldn't want to disclose.

• 2:29:25Jesse Michels?

  It's the same reason you wouldn't want to disclose Havana syndrome, because you don't have a defense against it.

• 2:29:29Speaker 01

  Well, exactly.

• 2:29:30Jesse Michels?

  Try to tie up people into.

• 2:29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there are many reasons.

• 2:29:33Jesse Michels?

  Like addict or whatever.

• 2:29:34Speaker 01

  Some of the reasons go back to what we were talking about in terms of psi earlier, right? Because there's no UFO disclosure without mainstream scientific recognition of psi. Because the entities on the other side of this are telepathic, they're clairvoyant. Immediately, we're going to understand that, oh, we have latent abilities that they've developed that we haven't yet. Oh, we can do that, too. Then you gotta deal with all the social problems attendant to that. But yes, you're absolutely right. The first reason why no government will want to disclose this is state sovereignty. Right? I opened my book, Closer Encounters, with this question, state sovereignty and the UFO.

• 2:30:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:05Speaker 01

  Right? And I used to teach political philosophy also. And there, you know, people really need to read Carl Schmidt. Carl Schmidt was a preeminent legal theorist in Weimar, Germany. And he eventually considered the system so dysfunctional that he wound up joining the Nazi party. But he went on to have a very significant career even after the war. And he became the most, single most important influence on Leo Strauss. Leo Strauss, American political theorist, was Carl Schmidt's greatest student. And Schmidt recognized this, which was interesting, because Schmidt was a Nazi, and then Strauss was a Jew.

• 2:30:40Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:30:41Speaker 01

  In any case, Carl Schmidt really understands this very well, that the nature of sovereignty is revealed in a state of emergency. Okay, this is partly how I developed my concept of a world state of emergency, is that the nature of sovereignty is revealed where, in situations where it's no longer possible to implement the Constitution. So during earthquakes, hurricanes, foreign invasions, war is a great example of it, also pandemics. You cannot implement the legal constitution, and it's not always possible for Parliament to meet, or, you know, our Congress to decide, in what ways are we going to abrogate the Constitution? In a state of emergency,

• 2:31:24Speaker 01

  you see very clearly who the actual sovereign is. It's who or what group of people are capable of acting effectively in the emergency? And upon what principles do they act, such that their actions to address the emergency are accepted as legitimate by the majority of people? That shows you the actual structure of political sovereignty. And if you apply that analysis to the UFO phenomenon, you realize that none of the governments of Earth are sovereign. And no government wants to come forward and say that.

• 2:31:58Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of the governments on Earth not being sovereign, I mean, one version maybe between UFOs and the president would be Epstein and this sort of, you know, or just, you know, you have intelligence, and then, but then you have some weird kind of international intelligence thing going on, distributed compromat systems, that sort of thing. And then you have Epstein's interest in science. Do you think there's a connection between Jeffrey Epstein and UFOs?

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:32:25Jesse Michels?

  And what is it?

• 2:32:26Speaker 01

  So I wrote a piece on this recently in my Substack, which, by the way, that's my Substack, it's very easy to find, Jason Giorgiani on Sub. There's only one Jason Giorgiani. Okay, so.

• 2:32:38Jesse Michels?

  There you go.

• 2:32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jason Giorgiani on Substack.

• 2:32:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a piece on Substack. The focus is mostly actually on Ghislaine Maxwell, more than, you know, Epstein. But, you know, Epstein is obviously, you know, integral to the whole story of who Ghislaine Maxwell is, who her father was, and what their aims and intentions were. And I draw from various sources in that article, work the Dark Journalist did, and, you know, uncovering connections between Maxwell and the whole Atlantis mythos, Whitney Webb's research, what.

• 2:33:16Speaker 01

  Ari Ben Menasha uncovered in terms, or at least testified to in terms of Epstein's high-level arms dealing, his involvement with Iran-Contra and so on and so forth. So I have a bunch of sources that I'm drawing from in that piece. But long story short, here's my... So UFOs, was he involved? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Eric Weinstein, you know, has done a lot to expose this recently. I mean, you know the guy, you know? So, look, Epstein put together a conference, basically hosting and platforming all of the top gravity researchers in the world. Epstein was taking people down in submarines, including Stephen Hawking, to study quantum gravitational anomalies

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  in the Bahamas Basin, basically in the Bermuda Triangle region. So Epstein was clearly interested in understanding gravity, and quite possibly for the sake of propulsion. And then you have Ghislaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, who's a triple agent, MI6, KGB, Mossad, gatekeeping scientific discoveries through his control of journal publications via Pergamon Press. Pergamon Press, by the way, Pergamon is the place that was believed to have been the throne of Satan. And so his choosing that name is not at all incidental. Jesus. So... Well, I hope you're not that form of Satan.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  Well, I want to unpack a very interesting point in relation to that. Yeah, yeah. An interesting and deeply disturbing point. Yeah, yeah. So Robert Maxwell was clearly involved in gatekeeping, and you would think some of the scientific journal publications that he was... Some of the articles that had been submitted that he didn't allow to see the light of day, and that he sequestered and monopolized as part of his database, would have had to do with propulsion breakthroughs and electroggravitics.

• 2:35:13Speaker 01

  So, okay, Epstein is continuing some kind of research that Robert Maxwell was involved in that has to do with conquering gravity.

• 2:35:22Jesse Michels?

  Do you think he was interested in electroggravitics?

• 2:35:24Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, but here's the thing.

• 2:35:26Jesse Michels?

  Well, what makes you think that?

• 2:35:28Speaker 01

  Look, he was interested in gravity.

• 2:35:30Jesse Michels?

  But that's, that's, I could explain that away. I could say that for the last 60 years, mainstream physics has been stuck on quantizing gravity and, and basically, you know, reconciling general relativity and quantum field theory. And he was just this generic science honeypot person. Or you could get into spookier territory, say he was into the Casimir effect, which I know he was. And then, then even crazier would be electroggravitics, because electroggravitics is a specific term around Thomas Townes and Brown's work.

• 2:36:03Speaker 01

  I tell you why I think electroggravitics, but here's where it gets really much crazier. And I have this in my piece, is that by all accounts, all of the young women involved in Epstein's compromat operations were, well, most of them were Nordic, and none of them were black or brown women. And this has been noted very clearly by people who were involved. They said he wasn't interested in them. And in particular, there are some women who, now, you can question whether they're telling the truth or their veracity, but they claim that they were taken to Zorro Ranch specifically

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  as part of a breeding program where Epstein intended to inseminate them with fetuses that had superior genetics. And he was involved in the evolutionary dynamics biology sub-program at Harvard. He had key card access to that. Even after his first prosecution, he retained key card access to a program at Harvard, which is euphemistically involved with what we might call eugenic applications of emergent biotechnology.

• 2:37:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  Okay?

• 2:37:09Jesse Michels?

  Hanging out with Robert Trivers, top evolutionary biologist.

• 2:37:11Speaker 01

  Yes, and George Church, transhumanist. And so Epstein is trying to create eugenically enhanced Nordic people at Zorro Ranch. Meanwhile, here's where it gets really creepy.

• 2:37:27Speaker 01

  The aides who worked for Glenn Maxwell, she had these live-in male aides at her apartment in the Upper East Side of Manhattan, at her townhouse.

• 2:37:38Speaker 01

  And these male aides were all from Sweden. This one, one of them wrote an article about it. I cited in my, in my piece on my Substack. And he says, I asked her, like, what's it with you and like Swede, Swedish people? Like, she's like, I've never even been to Sweden. But she would bring these guys on three month tourist visas uniquely from Sweden. They were all like, good looking blonde guys. And the guy who wrote this article said, I would notice that whenever like my hair had fallen in the, you know, bed sheets or in the bathroom, it would all be cleaned up.

• 2:38:14Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:38:15Speaker 01

  So his hair was being retrieved, Gattaca style.

• 2:38:18Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:38:19Speaker 01

  From his living quarters in Ghislaine Maxwell's.

• 2:38:21Jesse Michels?

  Oh.

• 2:38:21Speaker 01

  Townhouse. Okay. So it wasn't just young women. She had young, well, competent male aides whose genetic material was also being collected as part of some project. So that to me is a second data point. This fixation with Nordics and eugenic uses of biotechnology that then spins Epstein's interest in gravity in the direction of, oh, the UFO phenomenon, electroggravitics. He's interested in these Nordics and their connection to UFOs. That's a speculation.

• 2:38:57Jesse Michels?

  It's interesting. Well, who knows?

• 2:38:58Speaker 01

  And then there's of course, all the Atlantis stuff.

• 2:39:00Jesse Michels?

  The Atlantis.

• 2:39:01Speaker 01

  They were obsessed with Atlantis.

• 2:39:02Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. Townsend Brown also spent a ton of time in the Bahamas. Did you know that?

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:39:06Jesse Michels?

  In Nassau specifically. And he would do these expeditions where he'd look at gravitational anomalies there. He's close to William Stevenson, who spent, I think, the end of his life in Bermuda. So, so, okay, yeah. And then what is this? Yeah, Dark Journalist reported on this. It's like this sort of submarine that he would take Stephen Hawking.

• 2:39:24Speaker 01

  Well, Ghislaine Maxwell named the thing, the Atlantis submarine.

• 2:39:28Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 2:39:29Speaker 01

  And you know, when, you know, there, there was a temple to Poseidon on the island, on Little St. James, there was a temple to Poseidon. You know, Poseidon is the patron deity of Atlantis. In Plato's account of Atlantis, to Maes and Critias' dialogues, he, he talks about how the Atlanteans were basically descendants of Poseidon. There was their patron deity. And then on Zorro Ranch, where the breeding program was, he had a labyrinth in the shape of the ground plan of Atlantis. Weird. Yeah, this is stuff that dark journalists dug up years ago. So, but you can see it. I mean, you go, you, there's tons of photographs of this stuff. And you have this oceanic trade network, this Yes. Terramar. Yes. Or whatever. And Ghislaine Maxwell was obsessed with Atlantis from childhood because her father,

• 2:40:14Speaker 01

  Robert Maxwell, was friends with Jacques Cousteau. And Jacques Cousteau admitted to them that his interest in oceanography really came from an obsession with finding Atlantis. Eventually, Ghislaine Maxwell would dive on sites, you know, she was an expert diver. And she would helicopter pilot and so on and so forth. And she would dive on sites in the Bahamas area where there were believed to be Atlantean ruins, including, she was trying to get permission from Fidel Castro, together with Epstein, to dive on a site on the western end of Cuba where Paulina Zelitsky, a Canadian oceanographic archaeologist, had found ruins of a vast Atlantean city. Whoa. This was round about in early 2010s.

• 2:41:01Speaker 01

  She mapped the whole thing with sonar. It wound up in a number of news stories. And I think at one point, National Geographic even said, oh, well, this needs to be looked into.

• 2:41:12Speaker 01

  She goes, so this, this is a site off the western end of Cuba. In other words, it's right across from Yucatan. She suspects there's a connection to the ruins in Yucatan. So she goes to Mexico to investigate the connection. She's arrested in Mexico, severely intimidated by the authorities and sent back to Canada. And she drops further investigations and the story disappears from the media. Now, Ghislaine Maxwell went down to Cuba and met with Fidel Castro, together with Epstein, to get permission to dive on this site. So these people were interested in Atlantis. They were trying to breed Nordics and they were interested in gravity, in conquering gravity.

• 2:41:55Speaker 01

  Therefore, I suspect that the interest in gravity is an interest in electroggravitics and, you know, the Townsend Brown effect and basically it's all part of the UFO phenomenon that they're trying to crack.

• 2:42:06Jesse Michels?

  Do you know who Peter Lavenda is?

• 2:42:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:42:10Jesse Michels?

  You know, he writes about this unholy alliance where he talks about the Nazis, you know, sort of aligning themselves with the tall whites of the Nordics and there being some sort of secret technology.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  I have an essay in that book, Lovers of Sofia, I mentioned earlier, it's an essay called Black Sunrise. It's about fascism. The whole essay is about the philosophy of fascism, you know? And I cite Lavenda a few times in that.

• 2:42:33Jesse Michels?

  So do you think that, like, there's some sort of, you know, this like control system or whatever, and then they're aligning themselves with different political factions and using them and discarding them sort of cyclically or something like?

• 2:42:46Speaker 01

  That's one way to read it.

• 2:42:48Jesse Michels?

  Is there a connection between the eugenics of Nazis and whatever Epstein was doing? Is there?

• 2:42:54Speaker 01

  There's definitely a connection. The question is, what's the connection? Here's the problem. If you look back at the 1950s contactees, I lay this out in detail in Closer Encounters, and frankly, I'm appalled that UFO researchers don't talk about this. I mean, this is clearly a taboo and they don't have the backbone to honestly discuss this.

• 2:43:20Speaker 01

  George Van Tassel worked for Lockheed.

• 2:43:24Speaker 01

  George Van Tassel used to have Howard Hughes land on his private airstrip and come eat his wife's pies. He lives under this rock called Big Rock. I've been there.

• 2:43:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, me too.

• 2:43:36Speaker 01

  So you went to the Integra, right?

• 2:43:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:43:39Speaker 01

  This is cool.

• 2:43:40Jesse Michels?

  And I've been to Big Rock.

• 2:43:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:43:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:41Speaker 01

  So this, this structure under the rock where George Van Tassel lived, used to be owned by a Nazi called Frank Kreutzer. And he was confronted by the feds during World War II because they found out he's working for the Germans.

• 2:43:58Speaker 01

  So there's a standoff and basically, long story short, Kreutzer's got a bunch of explosives in this place and the feds close in on him. And whether he set them off or they shot at them, the place exploded, right? And Kreutzer's blood was splattered all over the walls. He dies in it. Van Tassel knew, now Kreutzer was involved in mining and the mining interests, it looks like he was a forward operative for the Nazis, looking potentially to colonize California if they won the war or something like this. And he was involved in mining. Van Tassel knew Kreutzer. Van Tassel takes over the property from Kreutzer after his guts are, you know, splayed all over the wall. And he moves his family into this, but first of all, what is the psychology of a person?

• 2:44:43Speaker 01

  Who, who moves his family into this Flintstone layer that in which a Nazi exploded? On the walls that they're looking at while they eat breakfast in the mornings, right? And this Van Tassel works for Lockheed and Howard Hughes comes to that same under, you know, underground layer, right? To, to eat Miss Van Tassel's pie. Okay, now what was George Van Tassel all about? What he tells us is that the entities from Venus, Nordics of course, revealed to him that.

• 2:45:19Speaker 01

  The human race comes from space. And when they got here, they found these hominids, ape-like people. And in the first expedition they sent to Earth, it was only men. Very 1950s, you know, kind of you, you send the men first, establish the frontier and all this shit. You know, set up, set up the, uh, yeah, be the frontiersmen. But the problem is that when subsequent expeditions came together, you know, that had women and they were actually intending to settle on a large scale. They found that the men who had been sent there as the forward explorers and frontier settlers wound up mating with the females from among the hominid population. And then they had created these hybrids. They were basically quasi-human.

• 2:46:04Speaker 01

  And Van Tassel says, well, these are the lower races. The master race on the earth are simply humans in their original form that come from space. And then there are all these other lower races that are product of hybridization with a local hominid population.

• 2:46:20Speaker 01

  Now let's look at George Hunt Williamson. So George Hunt Williamson was, um, uh, it was a pseudonym. The guy's name was Michel or Michal Dobrenovic. And he was actually from Serbian royalty. And this guy became George Adamski's handler. So he, he basically, he was helping Adamski edit all the stuff that Adamski published. And he had had a precedence as an editor slash handler for a magazine called Valor, which was the publication of William Dudley Pelley and the American Silver Shirts.

• 2:47:01Speaker 01

  These were fascists in the 1930s and into the 40s, who wanted us to make an alliance with Germany instead of going to war with Hitler. To such an extent that William Dudley Pelley was eventually arrested and put in prison for basically collaboration with the enemy.

• 2:47:18Speaker 01

  When he was in prison, he wrote a book called Star Guests, Star Guests, and it created this religion called Soulcraft. And it's the same damn message as Van Tassel. The Nordic race came from space. They found inferior hominid life forms here. They interbred with them. You know, it caused the fall in the level of human consciousness. We need to extricate ourselves from this through eugenics, et cetera, et cetera. Same racialist ideology. Then you look at George Adamski himself. Adamski says that these beings who come from both Mars and Venus and inhabit the whole solar system, whatever. He says, oh, they're far more aligned than us.

• 2:47:59Speaker 01

  They have a form of society where the government, religion, and science are not at all distinct from each other. And people are educated into the system from childhood. How wonderful. Sounds like a great society, right? The ultimate totalitarian system that you could imagine. And of course, they're all Nordics. And then last example I want to give, Billy Meyer. Also, not really his name. I mean, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond-style super spy field intelligence operative. Really? Working primarily in the Middle East. Billy Meyer? Yeah.

• 2:48:44Speaker 01

  Until he had an accident in Turkey, in a bus accident. His arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland, where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contact D phenomenon. I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in Closer Encounters. Wow. So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the King of Jordan.

• 2:49:23Jesse Michels?

  Billy Meyer.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  Billy Meyer.

• 2:49:24Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 2:49:25Speaker 01

  And get this.

• 2:49:25Jesse Michels?

  Context for the audience, Billy Meyer is a famous Swiss UFO researcher, ufologist, who in the 90s started to take these amazing, like seemingly high resolution photos of UFOs, attract all sorts of stuff. A lot of, you know, intelligence, I think, became attracted to what was going on with him. And then he was sort of marginalized at the end of his, he's still alive, but you know.

• 2:49:48Speaker 01

  Speaking of the photos, Jacques Vallée, because a lot of people have said, look, these photos are ridiculous. I mean, you know, they're way too high resolution. They're way too, some look like, you know, pots and pans, whatever held up.

• 2:50:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:00Speaker 01

  But Jacques Vallée has looked at some of these photos.

• 2:50:04Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:05Speaker 01

  And his comment was that, at least the best of them.

• 2:50:07Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:08Speaker 01

  He said, okay, they could be fake, but, and I think they were, they were earlier than the 90s, some of these photos. He said, at the time when they were taken, I think it was 70, late 70s. In any case, Vallée's analysis, and remember, Jacques Vallée is living in Silicon Valley, he has access to a lot of tech people. I mean, he's a tech venture capitalist himself, has access to a lot of people involved in also special effects and optical stuff. He knew Spielberg personally and worked with him.

• 2:50:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:50:35Speaker 01

  And Vallée's assessment was that, yeah, they could be fake, but he would have had, needed access to ILM to fake these. And where did like some guy living on a farm in Switzerland have the capability to fake some of these?

• 2:50:46Jesse Michels?

  He was a super sophisticated double stuff.

• 2:50:47Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. No, exactly. So this is where I'm going with this.

• 2:50:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:50Speaker 01

  Is that the people who were involved with Billy Meyer in the years where he was acting as a super spy working the Middle East, say that he introduced these tall, very good-looking Nordic people to the Arab leaders in the, and they would have meetings with these Arab kings and so forth, on policy and what they were supposed to do.

• 2:51:09Speaker 01

  Now, few people know that Latin America was not the only area the Nazis were interested in after World War II. The reason why the Arab countries have a black, white, and red color scheme is that they got it from the Nazis. And a huge area that the Nazis were interested in was the Arab world.

• 2:51:26Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 2:51:27Speaker 01

  After World War II. They embedded themselves deeply there. They were building V2 rockets and the successor Scud missiles for Nasser, and eventually for the Iraqis and so on and so forth. So now, this is a complicated argument, which, you know, people have to actually dig into it in the book. I build off of research by Joseph Farrell to suggest that there was an international post-war Nazi network. Some people call "die Spinnen," the spider. And that Edward Meyer was an operative, high-level operative of this network. So, point being, from Van Tassel to George Hunt Williamson, George Van Tassel, George

• 2:52:09Speaker 01

  Hunt Williamson, George Adamski, but what is it with George, by the way? Why are they all, you know, what is that? Yeah, it's interesting. A whole other side interest of mine is greater Iran and its history and, you know, it's cultural anthropology and so on and so forth. And in the Indo-European languages, the word "George," "Gorga," means wolf. And, you know, at the end of World War II, the domestic resistance to the Allied occupation were called the werewolves. That's right, the werewolves. They hide out underground often. Yes. So it's interesting, these Georges. And, you know, in the case of George Hunt Williamson, it was just a completely fake

• 2:52:54Speaker 01

  name. His name was Mikhail Dobronovik. In any case, whether it's Van Tassel, George Adamski, George Hunt Williamson, or Billy Meyer, it's all the same, very racialist Nordic hierarchical caste system kind of narrative. And the question I have to ask is this, when you put, now, this is going on in the 50s, these Contact E things, start in the 50s and go through the 60s. We know that the breakthrough in aerospace propulsion at Martin Aircraft and potentially others was also in the mid 50s, where they were saying they can roll these things off an assembly line in three years, right?

• 2:53:37Speaker 01

  So if Epstein and company are trying to reverse engineer this technology, or breed some kind of Nordics or whatever, they're very late to the game. You see?

• 2:53:50Jesse Michels?

  Well, or it's a fly trap. It's a front for, you know, funneling in scientists for something that is actually vital and has existed for years.

• 2:53:57Speaker 01

  Quite possible. That's one, definitely one interpretation is it's a fly trap. It's, it's an entry gate. It's a beacon.

• 2:54:04Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:54:04Speaker 01

  And then they're going to be funneled somewhere, just like the remote viewing program that we were told about, the SRI Stargate program, etc., was shut down in 95, was really actually like a vestibule for a darker, deep black project that still exists, the one that, you know, Pat Price was recruited into and killed over. So that's one possible interpretation. There's another interpretation, which is that scummy as he is, Jeffrey Epstein, and more importantly, Robert Maxwell and his daughter were part of a rebellion against the system. And they're trying to develop a strategic competence and, you know, something approaching

• 2:54:47Speaker 01

  parity with those who are actually running the breakaway civilization, that they were fielding their own enterprise.

• 2:54:53Jesse Michels?

  They've, that's not the vibe from all of them is that they're, they're being used by some power structure above them, would be my instinct.

• 2:55:03Speaker 01

  It's quite possible.

• 2:55:04Jesse Michels?

  But like just the back pattern.

• 2:55:06Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't have a, a dog in the, you know, I don't have a, you know, a pony in the race, you know?

• 2:55:11Jesse Michels?

  Sure.

• 2:55:12Speaker 01

  I don't know, but, uh,

• 2:55:17Speaker 01

  but I'll tell you this, that, um, the obsession with Atlantis is interesting in this regard because Atlantis is a rebellion against the Olympian control system. So from the standpoint of people who want to maintain a hierarchical caste society with the Devas or the Elohim or whatever at the top of it.

• 2:55:40Speaker 01

  Valorizing Atlantis doesn't make very much sense. From that standpoint, to valorize Atlantis is satanic.

• 2:55:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you'd want it to not, nobody to be thinking about.

• 2:55:51Speaker 01

  That was the huge mistake we made that we should never make again. From that traditionalist hierarchical perennialist standpoint.

• 2:55:57Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 2:55:58Speaker 01

  So their obsession with Atlantis does suggest to me that maybe they saw themselves as being in competition. And the other thing that suggests that to me is the fact that Jeffrey Epstein is dead and Glenn Maxwell is in prison. So that if these people were like low level, lower level operatives for the people actually running the show, why did they meet with such ends?

• 2:56:20Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think they would because they, you know, a bunch of other powerful people want them dead.

• 2:56:25Speaker 01

  Quite possible.

• 2:56:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:26Speaker 01

  Including potentially the president of the United States.

• 2:56:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I think there are a whole host of really powerful people that wanted Epstein dead.

• 2:56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56:33Jesse Michels?

  But you also, speaking of the Nazi connection, you kind of, you've uncovered, you know, Whitley Strieber is this, you know, a really famous contactee, maybe the archetypal contactee in the eighties, wrote Communion, of course. And he describes kind of ongoing relationship with gray aliens. Just a whole host of crazy stories. He was on my podcast talking about how he has a hybrid child and stuff.

• 2:56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I watched it.

• 2:56:56Jesse Michels?

  Uh, yeah. So there you go. So.

• 2:56:57Speaker 01

  You told him that you wanted one of the chips. I don't want one of the chips.

• 2:57:00Jesse Michels?

  What do you mean one of the chips?

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  When he was showing you, you know, the chip in his ear.

• 2:57:03Jesse Michels?

  I touched it.

• 2:57:04Speaker 11

  You can touch it. You can't, I don't think you touch it if you want to.

• 2:57:07Jesse Michels?

  I feel like two years.

• 2:57:08Speaker 11

  I can give you a CT scan of it if you want that.

• 2:57:11Jesse Michels?

  Was it weird if I touch it or is it okay?

• 2:57:13Speaker 11

  No, it's fine. Doesn't matter. It might be a little hot because it's been working right here.

• 2:57:18Jesse Michels?

  Two, three years ago, if you had, if you had told someone.

• 2:57:20Speaker 11

  Go ahead and touch it. Don't be scared. Here, here.

• 2:57:26Speaker 11

  It's right under my finger now.

• 2:57:28Jesse Michels?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:57:30Speaker 11

  Yeah.

• 2:57:31Jesse Michels?

  Can you touch it?

• 2:57:32Speaker 12

  I'll, I'll come touch you, but I want to finish this point because I feel like that's also.

• 2:57:36Jesse Michels?

  The normal tissue.

• 2:57:37Speaker 12

  Yeah, no, I mean, there is the CT scan, a video of, there's a video of the surgeon trying to remove it. And the thing fucking moving at its own, like it's.

• 2:57:47Speaker 11

  Oh, it's moving down into my earlobe. Yeah.

• 2:57:50Speaker 12

  And it just like goes down. And I remember watching that.

• 2:57:52Speaker 13

  I guess it went under. But that's the hard part. But we disappear again.

• 2:57:58Speaker 11

  It's actually moving now.

• 2:58:00Speaker 13

  It went under.

• 2:58:02Speaker 11

  It's on the run.

• 2:58:04Speaker 13

  I'm trying to guess because I could see it just bright as day and now it's uh, I don't see it.

• 2:58:10Jesse Michels?

  Am I gonna have weird effects now that I? No, not at all.

• 2:58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, yeah, cool, man. I want one of those. I don't want one of those.

• 2:58:16Jesse Michels?

  I was messing around.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  I don't want one of those.

• 2:58:18Jesse Michels?

  I don't actually want one, yeah, good.

• 2:58:20Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 2:58:21Jesse Michels?

  No, same. I don't, I don't, and I don't want any weird contact either, you know?

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  Certainly not from those folks.

• 2:58:26Jesse Michels?

  No, definitely not. So what do you, because he, you've talked about, you know, he had these childhood experiences, right? And like Mexico City.

• 2:58:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not uncovering anything that he had, didn't put in the public domain.

• 2:58:38Jesse Michels?

  But there are things he doesn't want to talk about?

• 2:58:40Speaker 01

  That's true. So I'll tell you what Willie Streber doesn't want to talk about. Although he's, you know, I'm basing it on statements he's publicly made, shows he's done uh, over the years, going back 20 years. Uh, he, his father was involved with military intelligence. And they're Texas Germans. So this is also relevant, okay? The Streber family are Texas Germans. And there were a lot of Germans in the United States.

• 2:59:08Speaker 01

  This is a long, deep subject. I can't go down that rabbit hole right now. But long story short, there were a lot of Germans in the United States in the lead up to World War II who were sympathetic to the Nazis and who helped to fund the rise of the Nazis.

• 2:59:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, there was a rumor Hitler wanted to buy a house in the Pacific Palisades because there's this brown shirt cult by this guy Erich Schmidt or whatever, these, all these sort of Nazi sympathizers.

• 2:59:27Speaker 01

  They were all over the place. And, and they were definitely in Texas.

• 2:59:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:31Speaker 01

  And uh, so Streber's father.

• 2:59:34Jesse Michels?

  Oh, Lindbergh and.

• 2:59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Uh, Streber's father was involved with military intelligence. And they enlisted him, his parents enlisted him at a, like, summer camp. Summer camp at Randolph Air Force Base near their home in Texas. Where Streber alleges that he was subjected to various types of physical torture and mind control experiments. And that he was at one point taken from the summer camp at Randolph Air Force Base, which by the way, his experience is there, he said, you know, made him so ill that he was repeatedly like absent from school as a child during a couple of years. And I was

• 3:00:16Speaker 01

  eight, seven, eight, eight years old or something like that. And. At one point, he was taken from the place, the base at Randolph Air Force, to a school for special children in Baja California. This is what he says. And this is what you don't want to talk about. Where he says that they were taken to this place in Baja California, which he then, in his adulthood, went and tried to find. He drove around trying to find this mansion that they were taken to. And he says they were shown, these little children were shown absolutely horrific things there, basically in some kind of dungeon.

• 3:00:56Speaker 01

  And, you know, they were given like chainsaws and various implements of violence and made to believe that they were the ones who had carried out the horrific butchery that was displayed to them. And all kinds of horrific sounds were played to them in the dark. And it basically, it sounds like a precursor of MKUltra, but involving children. The aim of which was to cause a fragmentation of the psyche. And a kind of psychological dissociation that would make it possible for intelligence operatives to control a part of someone's mind that was not normally accessible to them.

• 3:01:39Speaker 01

  To compartmentalize a person's psyche and gain control over a certain backstage persona that could be activated for whatever purpose. And the other really disturbing thing in that context that Strieber recounted is that, and he left this out of communion and out of the whole first series of books that he wrote about his close encounters,

• 3:02:03Speaker 01

  that when he encountered this gray, like, sitting on top of him, like, sitting astride him in a bed of a guest room in his cabin in the Catskills,

• 3:02:14Speaker 01

  as he managed to take his eyes off of her and look around the room. He's engaging in relation to this gray. Right. And he said it's, he's never experienced anything more exciting in his life, like, right? Okay, yeah, yeah. So he's looking around the room. He can finally, like, get his eyes off of being glued to this entity.

• 3:02:33Speaker 01

  And he sees all these military and intelligence people standing around.

• 3:02:37Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:02:37Speaker 01

  In the cabin.

• 3:02:38Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:02:40Speaker 01

  He said, I recognized one of them. He was a guy I went to school with, who later joined the CIA. And he was standing there, together with like military people with like the brass and.

• 3:02:50Speaker 01

  So clearly, some of Whitley Strieber's experiences are the product of

• 3:02:56Speaker 01

  very advanced mind control program.

• 3:02:58Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:02:59Speaker 01

  That's involved with the production of the UFO phenomenon, or the management of the perception of it on some level.

• 3:03:04Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. Well, it is interesting. He told me on the podcast as well, he met with James Jesus Angleton once. James Jesus Angleton, obviously.

• 3:03:13Speaker 01

  Kennedy assassination.

• 3:03:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it was, but ran counter intel for the CIA for, you know, 30, 40 years and, you know, notorious Alan Dulles acolyte would lie, cheat and steal and do all sorts of crazy, crazy sort of, you know, things. And, um, he says that he, he, he asked Angleton if he could get recruited to the CIA. And Angleton was like, no, not you. Like you, you can't get recruited or something. So maybe that is to your point that he was, you know.

• 3:03:39Speaker 01

  That's so dark. Like, you know, what, what Angleton was really thinking is buddy, you're already an agent and you don't even know it.

• 3:03:45Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 3:03:46Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:03:46Jesse Michels?

  Right. Oh, man, that's crazy. It's crazy. You can probably partition people or something.

• 3:03:52Speaker 01

  Oh, you, oh, that's certainly possible. I mean, that was what, you know, the Manchurian candidate aspect of MKUltra was about.

• 3:03:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:59Speaker 01

  And they did that. And, you know, I think probably Sarhan Sarhan was an example of that.

• 3:04:03Jesse Michels?

  I think so too, because he didn't really remember what had happened. And, uh, I think he was at the Santa Ana race. He was a, he was a big, uh, racehorse junkie or whatever. And then now, now you, you talk to RFK Junior, he'll say, my dad was not shot by him. He was shot by, or he was shot by him, but from the back, he was also shot by a guy named Eugene Thane Caesar.

• 3:04:22Speaker 01

  Worked with Lockheed.

• 3:04:23Jesse Michels?

  Who was then a Skunk Works security guard. And the whole thing was set up by Bob Mayhew, who was general counsel for Howard Hughes.

• 3:04:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:29Jesse Michels?

  Howard Hughes also probably being involved in JFK's assassination. So it's really this nuts kind of hidden.

• 3:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, just because Sarhan Sarhan was a product of MKUltra doesn't mean that he was the lone assassin. It might mean he was meant to be a patsy in that operation.

• 3:04:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, probably. Similar to, you know, Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 3:04:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:04:46Jesse Michels?

  Said, I am a patsy. And, and it's interesting that, yeah, the ability to. Partition people, that's pretty crazy. I mean, there's a book called The Controllers by a guy named, I think, Martin Cannon. And apparently, John Alexander threatened him when he wrote this book. And it was about sending these messengers, these liaisons, in intelligence contexts and partitioning them because they couldn't even have access to the information that they were carrying.

• 3:05:12Speaker 01

  Very interesting.

• 3:05:13Jesse Michels?

  It is interesting.

• 3:05:14Speaker 01

  But you see, it doesn't really surprise me that that's possible because, for a number of reasons. I mean, first of all, if you look at Nietzsche's understanding of the structure of the human psyche, and although he was a philosopher, you know, it was the early days of psychology with William James and so forth, and really, the emergence of psychology as a science from out of philosophy, like all of the previous sciences emerged from out of philosophy. And so Nietzsche sometimes would identify himself as a psychologist. And he has this very interesting account of how the human person is not really an individual. It's a conglomerate of sort of battling perspectives and warring drives. And these can aggregate

• 3:05:58Speaker 01

  in ways that, like, there's, you know, three or four different people who really have found a way to live together inside somebody's head, right? And I believe that because of what I've seen in the course of researching reincarnation and possession. Right now, I'm doing a comprehensive study of the afterlife, death and reincarnation and possession phenomena, and the problematization of the distinction between reincarnation and possession. I don't know when this is going to be released, but, you know, at some, at some point, there'll be people watching this when the book is already out. I'm going to call it Thanosis,

• 3:06:39Speaker 01

  a contraction of Thanos, death, and gnosis, Thanosis. And in the course of this study of the afterlife, one thing I came across was that there are cases, you know, of course, background, you know, Ian Stevenson, Dr. Ian Stevenson, studied, got hundreds and hundreds of cases of children who spontaneously remembered past lives. He did this work at the University of Virginia for decades, from the 1960s through the 80s or something like that. And so there's a tremendous treasure trove of empirical data substantiating reincarnation in terms of the work that he did.

• 3:07:17Speaker 01

  And in particular, he's found cases that have interesting correlations between birthmarks and birth defects on the one hand and death wounds on the other. Anyway, if you take reincarnation seriously, as I think anyone should, based on Stevenson's research, and then you look more carefully at the data, you see that there are some cases where a single person reincarnated as two or more individuals. In other words, the psyche split in what Tibetans call the Bardo State, in the transition between death and rebirth. What was a singular person splits and is reincarnated as more than one individual.

• 3:07:57Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 3:07:58Speaker 01

  One case of this that's very prominent is Terry and Linda Jamison. They're these identical twins who are also psychics, but they report having been the same person before they were separated at Earth, as they call it. And then you find possession cases where it looks like several individuals or more are reincarnating in a single physical body. Okay, where there have been, Stephen Browdy, the former chair, philosophy department, University of Maryland Baltimore, who then went on to become one of the presidents of the Parapsychological Association, and he was also the chief editor for the Journal of Scientific Exploration

• 3:08:43Speaker 01

  for a while, for the SSE. Steve Browdy touched on these in his first book, A First Person Plural, which included a chapter about how there were cases of multiple personality disorder, or what they call identity dissociative disorder these days, which are misdiagnosed cases of basically multiple people incarnating in a single person, or multiple people possessing a single person. Some of them from birth, and then some of them coming in after birth. Stevenson also has cases that problematize the distinction between reincarnation and possession, where let's say there'll be a child who'll be deathly ill when he's six years old.

• 3:09:27Speaker 01

  And then when he comes back, you know, to physical health, it's a completely different person with different memories. It's like the original kid left, did die, left the body, and somebody else came in and took over the body, right? Now, more than one person can come in, right? So here, here's the thing, is that what that suggests about the structure of personality, epistemologically speaking, is that

• 3:09:52Speaker 01

  we are not necessarily the unique, indivisible, self-identical

• 3:09:59Speaker 01

  individuals that we take ourselves to be. The psyche may have a

• 3:10:05Speaker 01

  an internally differentiated structure, and it may be a conglomerate of different sub-personalities that find a modus vivendi with one another. And sometimes they hold together, crossing from one lifetime to the next, and in other cases, they break apart.

• 3:10:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and there probably is some way to systematically break that apart, compartmentalize.

• 3:10:28Speaker 01

  That's where I was going with that, is MKUltra.

• 3:10:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:10:31Speaker 01

  It's not all that surprising. If that's the way the psyche is structured anyway, you know, then it becomes more easily understandable how it could be weaponized.

• 3:10:39Jesse Michels?

  Well, it is interesting, MKUltra, you know, all the parapsychology research, all the kind of electrogravitic propulsion stuff. You're getting, or even quantum communications, which Hal Puthoff is working on via these, you know, vector and scalar potentials or whatever, the sub-quantum field. You're getting into modalities that if you were to dominate the human race, you would be able to employ all of these things at will. And so if you look at like the last 70 years of scientific research or something, yeah, it's kind of scary. It's like we are verging, maybe, maybe it's the fallen angel thing, you know, where we're rebelliously sort of acquiring these skills. Or it's, you know, we're, yeah, I don't know.

• 3:11:22Jesse Michels?

  Maybe we're, it's, you know, you, you hear these like UFO. You know whistleblower people, it's like Lou Elizondo will be like, we found the key and we're inside this cage and the gorilla sees that we have the key. So like, it's this, you know, dark forest analogy, you know, spin off thing that he's trying to say. And it's either that, or it's like, we're, we're being inducted into some friendly thing. I don't know, but it is, it is interesting. We're accelerating towards this new paradigm.

• 3:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:11:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:11:50Speaker 01

  And you know, the gorilla, you mentioned the gorilla.

• 3:11:52Jesse Michels?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:11:53Speaker 01

  You know, that whole test they do when they walk somebody in a gorilla suit through a group of people doing something.

• 3:11:58Jesse Michels?

  Pay attention to it, yeah.

• 3:11:59Speaker 01

  And the majority of people who watch the film don't notice the guy in the gorilla suit.

• 3:12:02Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:12:03Speaker 01

  And then when they were testing experimental aircraft, apparently, they would give gorilla masks to these people flying prototypes of the SR71. And the, what do you call, the other, the other one that went down over Russia, the.

• 3:12:18Jesse Michels?

  U2 spy.

• 3:12:18Speaker 01

  U2, the U2. They give these gorilla masks and they say, if you ever get too close to a civilian airliner where the pilot can make eye contact with you, put on the gorilla mask before that.

• 3:12:29Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 3:12:29Speaker 01

  So that when they come back with a story about this weird looking aircraft, they'll report it was a gorilla flying it and no one will believe the story, the whole thing.

• 3:12:36Jesse Michels?

  Andy Jacobson's Area 51. And that, that book, and I think we got, we need to do like five more of these, but Andy Jacobson's Area 51 starts with, it tells that story and it starts with the story of Bob Lazar. And I often wonder if the kind of true kind of hermeneutic reading of UFO disclosure is that there is some sort of co-sponsored, you know, program between the Nordics, I don't know what they are, and us. And they exist at these sites like Area 51 because you, you have these stories. First of all, Area 51 was Nevada test site before it became Area 51. Richard Bissell set it up as Area 51 to test the U2 spy plane in 1955. But you had already had hundreds of atomic, it was the site of

• 3:13:20Jesse Michels?

  the most atomic blasts in the United States. And UFOs constantly show up around, you know, nuclear weapons and, and energy installations. And so. You'd think that if you have that many atomic blasts, you'd probably have created some sort of like portal or something. You even have this misty echo patch around a test from 1988. And it looks like there's a portal underground. And that would explain the Dan Barish story of S4 Area 51 to explain some of the Bob Lazar stuff. And it would explain this weird disconnect of like, do we really have craft that can fly like that and it's being employed by us? Well, maybe it's kind of, you know, being co-run by us and them.

• 3:14:02Jesse Michels?

  And that's this sort of electromagnetic wormhole portal pit stop for them or something. I don't know.

• 3:14:07Speaker 01

  So two things about that. Two things about that. First of all, something really creepy about UFOs and nukes. Of course, I devote, you know, good amount to this toward the beginning of Closer Encounters. That excellent book, Hastings' book.

• 3:14:22Jesse Michels?

  Bob Hastings.

• 3:14:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, UFOs and, I cited, you know, if not anything else, Closer Encounters is a good encyclopedic, like, index of references for the whole UFO research field. And Hastings is one of the people who I cite extensively in there. So, but here's something about UFOs and nukes that's really creepy. I have a Substack piece on this. It's called "Nuking the Matrix" on my Substack. The first person to ever propose that we could be living inside a computer simulation was a Nazi computer scientist by the name of Konrad Zusa. Konrad Zusa was the Alan Turing of the Nazis. He developed the first modern digital computers before Turing did. So people often give credit Turing, but this guy was slightly ahead of Turing.

• 3:15:06Speaker 01

  And Turing was playing catch up with this guy. And this guy, Konrad Zusa, wasn't just involved in mechanical engineering of computers. He was extremely theoretical in his, you know, contemplation of what computation is. And it occurred to him for the first time that what if the weirdness in quantum mechanics is indicating the fact that we're living inside of what he called a calculating space, rechnender Raum, a calculating space? And he said, "The anomalies in our physics at the fundamental level are indicative of the fact that we're inside a computational system." And he theorized this whole thing during World War II.

• 3:15:54Speaker 01

  And here's the really creepy thing. He theorized that it would be possible to test this in extremely high entropy events, such as, for example, the detonation of a nuclear bomb.

• 3:16:08Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 3:16:09Speaker 01

  That a nuclear bomb's detonation is such a high entropy event that if you were observing the world on a quantum level during such an explosion, you would be able to detect basically the mesh of the matrix.

• 3:16:23Jesse Michels?

  I agree. The only two ways out of the matrix are through consciousness and high-energy physics. And if you even look at quantum indeterminacy, you have quantum indeterminacy between position and momentum, but you also have it between level of energy and time. So if you get extremely high energy output, you get time indeterminacy. And it explains weird portals at CERN, quote unquote, and stories around that. It explains high voltage experimentation of Tesla, Thomas Townsend Brown. Both of them saying really weird things happen at high voltages across short distances. Tesla's saying he saw the past, present, and future all in one and spoke to aliens, you know? And then you have nuclear blasts, which seem to, again, you get this sort of, these weird time effects and you see UFOs.

• 3:17:07Jesse Michels?

  And this is a bunch of Q-cleared guys who have literally no business lying about what they're seeing across all sorts of disparate sites across the United States. You have 167 Q-cleared employees saying that they see stuff in Bob Hastings' book.

• 3:17:23Speaker 01

  And why is the only consistent thing that all of the Nordics have ever said that we need to disarm of our, you know, we need to disarm and relinquish our nuclear weapons, right? These Nordics, they tell all kinds of different stories to different people. The one through line is we need to relinquish our nuclear weapons.

• 3:17:45Jesse Michels?

  That's how you get out of the matrix.

• 3:17:47Speaker 01

  See, people think they have these naive notions that, oh, they're worried about the ecology of the planet and they want to stop us from destroying ourselves. Folks, you know, there's evidence of nuclear exchanges in vast antiquity. I mean, there's, you know, there's vitrification at various ancient sites where there's also anomalous engineering. And as we discussed earlier, Brandenburg saw evidence of nuclear war on Mars. So it's not like these entities are, you know, necessarily averse to the use of nuclear weapons on moral grounds. I think what's going on here is that it's a way that would reveal that we're inside the matrix and they don't want us, maybe they know that, and it's very badly warped their psychology, having found that out. And their response to it was to create this control system, which at least gives them a sense of a degree of power.

• 3:18:31Speaker 01

  It's like, it's a very understandable human psychological response, actually. So you realize that, oh shit, I'm in, I don't have control over my life, I'm somebody else's plaything. Well, I'm gonna create something that I do have control of.

• 3:18:41Jesse Michels?

  Well, it's the, it's the whole three body problem where they are, they're looking at the tip of the spear of human ingenuity, generically speaking, but yes, high voltage, high energy experimentation would be kind of this Archimedes lever that you would, you would sort of look at.

• 3:18:54Speaker 01

  I have this case in Closer Encounters of a certain Sir Horsley. Sir Horsley was a British wing commander who became the closest aide and personal attache of Queen Elizabeth I. And at that time, when he was, you know, the personal aide of Queen Elizabeth as a military officer, he was approached by these Nordics who basically invited him to a fireside chat, Miss Markham and Mr. Janus. And they said, listen, we want you to come aboard, come aboard, we want you to come aboard with our plans and our project, and we want you to help us disarm the world of nuclear weapons, beginning with your country, United Kingdom. This was the 1950s when the British were first developing nuclear weapons.

• 3:19:38Speaker 01

  And he says that this Miss Markham, like, was a completely expressionless person. He said, she looked like Lady Dracula. And she was like this completely expressionless, like, icy white person. And the only time she ever showed any emotion was when he came back at them with, well, wait a minute, if we disarm and the Soviets disarm, then if it turns out that you folks are up to no good, we're rendered entirely defense, defenseless in the face of you. Our nuclear weapons are our only defense against you. And at that point, he says, she, she like... Had a wicked smile on her face, looking at him. Like, "Well done, boy."

• 3:20:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:20:21Speaker 01

  You know, "You've figured us out." And anyway, he went and reported this back to the authorities. They investigated these people, and it turned out their flats were empty by the time the authorities got there.

• 3:20:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 3:20:30Speaker 01

  Okay? Now, here's really the most creepy thing about this story. The same Sir Horsley, 20 years later, wound up controlling the British nuclear arsenal. I think they knew that this guy was gonna wind up in one of the most strategic positions regarding the British nuclear program. And they deliberately engaged him, having had foreknowledge of the, you know, further likely trajectory of his life.

• 3:20:58Jesse Michels?

  So crazy. Well, Jason Reza Giorgiani, this was a blast. We could honestly go for another six hours or something.

• 3:21:05Speaker 01

  Maybe we will in LA next time.

• 3:21:06Jesse Michels?

  Let's do it, man.

• 3:21:07Speaker 01

  Next time you're back in Los Angeles.

• 3:21:08Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I would love that. I would love that. And so the new book you're writing, what's the name of it?

• 3:21:13Speaker 01

  The one on the afterlife is gonna be called "Sensus."

• 3:21:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 3:21:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:17Jesse Michels?

  The Gnosis, that's coming out.

• 3:21:18Speaker 01

  And the book on UFOs is "Closer Encounters."

• 3:21:21Jesse Michels?

  "Closer Encounters," Substack, Jason Reza Giorgiani, and "Prometheus and Atlas," of course. Thank you, man.

• 3:21:28Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure.

• 3:21:30Jesse Michels?

  It was awesome.