"There's A UFO Under the Ranch!" - Skinwalker Owner Breaks Silence

Our American Alchemist this week is Brandon Fugal, Owner of Skinwalker Ranch. You can support American Alchemy by signing up with our incredible sponsors below! Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! Cape: ➡️ Protect your privacy on the cellular level with Cape at https://cape.co/americanalchemy. Use code ALCHEMY at checkout for 33% off your first 6 months. Plaud: Head to https://plaud.ai/alchemy to learn more and use code ALCHEMY10 at checkout. Or go to Amazon where you can still get the same 10% discount by using the same code: ALCHEMY10 at https://a.co/d/0gKmIEEn Superpower: Go to https://Superpower.com and use code ALCHEMY for $20 off your membership this year. Take the guesswork out of getting healthy in 2026. Get full body testing that goes 5x deeper than an annual physical and a personalized action plan that tells you exactly what to do next. All for just $199. Brandon Fugal is the owner of Skinwalker Ranch and one of Utah's most prominent real estate developers. In this conversation, Brandon reveals new evidence of what lies beneath the mesa, the terrifying hitchhiker effect, and why the ranch may sit on an interstellar highway. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@jessemichelsclips Apply For Jobs ➤ https://jobs.gusto.com/boards/american-alchemy-3758eda5-237b-45f1-b043-da80a300714e Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 2:44 - Meeting Brandon Fugal 5:53 - What Skinwalker Ranch Is 8:34 - A Childhood Pact 13:29 - The Hitchhiker Effect 19:56 - Thomas Winterton's Injuries 22:16 - GPS Failures and Time Anomalies 23:17 - Portals, Wormholes, and Anomalies 26:07 - Erik Bard's Magnet Experiment 28:31 - Michael Shermer and Skepticism 30:56 - The Mutilated Calf 36:28 - The Navajo-Ute Conflict 37:51 - First Visit in 2016 41:06 - Jesse's Visit to the Ranch 41:35 - Sponsors (Cape) 43:28 - Jesse's Visit Continued 47:22 - A Bad Month in LA 50:39 - Guardians of Forbidden Knowledge 54:09 - The Hells Angels Incident 57:42 - Tom Lewis's Cardiac Episode 1:03:01 - The Ranch Amplifies Intent 1:07:37 - Sky Elements Drone Failure 1:09:37 - Confirmation Bias and Critics 1:11:33 - The Shermans and Bigelow 1:13:58 - NIDS and AAWSAP 1:16:41 - Place in UFO History 1:21:51 - Bigelow Science and Consciousness 1:26:07 - Aliens, Time Travel, or Spirits 1:30:00 - Cosmic Zoo and Ancient Technology 1:33:45 - Something Under the Mesa 1:35:55 - Sponsors (Plaud) 1:37:28 - Sponsors (Superpower) 1:39:26 - Material and Voids 1:41:43 - The 1964 Nickel 1:43:30 - A UFO Under the Mesa 1:44:58 - The Bubble 1:46:53 - Unmarked Black Hawk Helicopters 1:48:03 - The Oil and Gas Operation 1:53:01 - Transparency and the History Channel 1:58:20 - Puthoff, Green, and Motion Sciences 2:04:04 - Keeping Ownership Secret 2:08:26 - Travis Taylor's Transformation 2:11:42 - Bradshaw Ranch and Global Hotspots 2:17:03 - Taylor and the UAP Task Force 2:21:13 - Four Years of Secret Funding 2:23:36 - Answering the Grifter Accusation 2:30:28 - Spielberg and Disclosure Day 2:32:44 - The Schumer Amendment 2:36:31 - A Mormon Connection 2:38:15 - Sean Kirkpatrick's Denial 2:43:28 - The Dire Wolf Carcass 2:50:55 - The Message on the Screen 2:53:38 - The Baltic Sea Anomaly 2:57:56 - Rabbi Ariel Bar Tzadok's Chant 3:01:47 - EEG Experiment and Chris Bledsoe 3:04:51 - Theories About Reality 3:09:13 - A Century of Accounts 3:11:21 - Fear and Faith 3:17:58 - The X-Files and Sign-Off Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

  You're stepping into the unknown when you come out to Skinwalker Ranch. My wife and I will never allow any of our children to set foot on the property.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Brandon Fugal is the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. It is the epicenter of all sorts of paranormal activity, UFO-related activity.

• 0:50Speaker 03

  Holy, right there. It came right out of the mesa.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Whatever we're dealing with has the ability to manipulate equipment.

• 1:01Speaker 04

  The camera just went out.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Reprogrammed, very sophisticated systems.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Whoa, I live in, that's creepy.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  And also cause an acute medical episode.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  He couldn't walk. He was immobilized.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  Is it aliens or is it spiritual? Are we dealing with angels and demons? Or a portal? Think of an interstellar, a Stargate, an interstellar highway, potentially, that provides transit between dimensions or worlds.

• 1:34Speaker 05

  It's raining drones over here.

• 1:36Speaker 02

  Well, am I wrong that the subplot to all of this is that there is a UFO under the mesa at Skinwalker Ranch?

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Uh, we'll see.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  You brought in a rabbi who did like a kabbalistic prayer?

• 1:53Speaker 01

  He had a rabidical chant that would open portals.

• 1:57Speaker 02

  Shalom. You guys find a direwolf, what is it, like a jawbone? It's a whole carcass. Direwolves are from 125,000 B.C. Did it time travel there?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  The fact that you have helicopters escorting some of these UFOs and UAP into the mountains, that blows my mind because then it's like not just...

• 2:20Speaker 01

  No, it's a coordinated effort.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  Yes, between humans and the beings.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Has anybody showed up to the ranch where they feel one step ahead of you? And you're, you kind of just, you feel a little resonance, you see it in the eyes, and you're like, this person knows a whole lot, and we're kind of piecing it together?

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Here's the reality, Jesse. We're being monitored.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Ignition sequence five.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  How is this functioning?

• 2:58Speaker 06

  Nothing too unusual about that.

• 3:02Speaker 04

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Brandon Fugal, this is an honor. It's a long time coming, and it's a full circle moment for me, having visited the ranch, what was it, four years ago?

• 3:22Speaker 01

  About four years ago. Indeed, it was right when we were in the middle of our public disclosure and building momentum with the documentary series and bringing a diversity of individuals to the property to be briefed on the reality of the phenomena and what we were seeing at that time. And so much has happened since your visit, but it was a privilege.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  It's my privilege and it's an honor. And, you know, I want to present you properly because most people in your position with your sort of, you know, with your money, with your resources, they're trying to make more money. They're maybe comparing yachts at Saint-Tropez. They're on a treadmill. You know, maybe they're trying to shape the world politically. You're in a very rare category of person who is really trying to discover the nature of reality and spending his resources, his hard-earned money in commercial real estate towards kind of, you know, figuring out the secrets of the universe. And so I think that is amazing. And I, that is, it's a really beautiful thing. And I think, you know, you're a role model

• 4:30Speaker 02

  to a lot of people at home who are both industrious but also curious.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  I think it is part of my stewardship. And as I've mentioned in other forums, I consider myself the steward, not necessarily just the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. And as being a steward of this place and these topics, to a degree, I've tried to address them with the right, hopefully, level of humility and reverence and personal investment. I don't think there is another private individual on the planet that has invested more into these topics than I have over the last decade. And it's all in service to the truth and hopefully sharing that truth with the public. I don't believe I have a corner on that truth or that IP.

• 5:18Speaker 01

  I believe it is a public right and benefit to hopefully learn right alongside us. And we've, we've used a documentary series as a, as a primary vehicle, but also our web portal that allows people a 24-hour, seven-day-per-week look into the ranch. A lot of people don't realize they can actually go online and be part of the investigation 365 days a year. And we have crowdsourced, for the first time, frontier science efforts like no other group, no other effort. And, and I'm quite proud of that effort. We call them the insiders. Our insider program is, is one of the most exciting

• 6:03Speaker 01

  parts of our endeavor because it's allowed other private individuals to participate and to monitor what is happening at the ranch.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  That's amazing. And, and, you know, a testament to the transparency that you're trying to kind of imbue this whole effort with. To those that don't know, if you're living under a rock out there, Brandon is the owner of Skinwalker Ranch. And Skinwalker Ranch is a fascinating location. It is the epicenter of all sorts of paranormal activity, UFO-related activity. You see orbs and spheres often around the mesa, sometimes going through the mesa, going through rock.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Right, transmedium phenomena. I mean, what we see at Skinwalker Ranch is the highest frequency of UFO or UAP sightings matched with electromagnetic anomalies and a host of high strangeness that continues to baffle, I think, some of the most skilled researchers, scientists, and experts that we've brought on to, to help us document and study the phenomenon. It's a, it's a great privilege. I mean, it's a, it's a private laboratory. You look at this 512-acre piece of property that is in northeastern Utah, sequestered in the middle of thousands of tribal acres. I mean, it's right in the middle of the Ute-Urue Reservation

• 7:29Speaker 01

  and has been not only the subject and focus of frontier science investigation for now over 30 years, but it has been under armed-guarded surveillance since 1996. I don't know another place on the planet that is, is truly a secure living laboratory. We call it sometimes the, the private area 51 for studying these topics and being able to hopefully understand the nature of our universe, our role in the universe and what that plays and, and what is really happening.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  It's almost if you put the phenomenon in like a lab environment, in like a closed environment, it would be Skinwalker Ranch. It's like a little Petri dish or something.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  It really is. Or others say it's Mecca for the paranormal.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Mecca for the paranormal. I love it.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  We have people show up all day, every day.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  I paid my tribute.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's funny. People come to the gates and, and they'll try to touch the gates and they'll get their, their photos at the gates. And, and, you know, there are some really good people all over the world that are asking the same questions, the same questions that have been asked for thousands of years. You know, are we alone in the universe? You know, what is the nature of reality? Do we live in a, in a divinely constructed, intelligently designed reality? And are there other beings or influences that are helping to shape, for better or for worse, that reality?

• 9:00Speaker 02

  I want to get into that. But before, I want to back up and talk about a pact that you made in, I think, fifth or sixth grade.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  Behind the school.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 9:11Speaker 01

  I, I believe what you're referring to is me and my best friend, Chris Lee, he's a prominent doctor. He's, I think he's the leading radiation oncologist in the country. He's up in the Pacific Northwest and is a partner in several clinics. Well, Dr. Lee, or Chris Lee, who was my best friend in fifth grade, playing Dungeons and Dragons with me and taking karate, he and I, one day, heard that there was a pack of cigarettes that was found on the playground. And everyone was in a, in a huff about it. And everyone was whispering about, who is, who was out smoking on the playground? And we ended up being late to class and, and talking about it in the boys' restroom.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  And we made a pact. And we shook on it. We, we made a pact that we would never smoke or drink, or what we call in, in Mormonism, or as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, uh, break the word of wisdom. Um, and that we would hold each other to that pact. And I remember we both remind each other almost on a monthly basis of our promise. And we've kept it all these years. So we shook on it in fifth grade and now at age 53, we still check in with each other, uh, relative to whether we, we've kept our promise. And so to this day, I've never drank, I've never tried alcohol. I've never smoked. I, I don't even know what coffee tastes like for that matter, but

• 10:37Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  We've, we've, we've adhered to that. And I think it's kept me out of trouble. I don't judge anyone. Uh, I want to be clear about that, that I, I don't judge anyone for, for feeling differently or practicing differently, but that's a promise that we made. It was very personal and it's, it's helped me in my life. I've seen great blessing come from adhering to that, uh, that health protocol.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  We definitely have the, the Mormon glow in our spaceship here.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  So that was what you're referring to?

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that was what I was referring to. Yeah. Well, inside info that I got.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Oh, that's awesome.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  But I remember specifically when I visited Skinwalker Ranch, you, you drank a big thing of Diet Mountain Dew every day. And you didn't get sick.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  And I found that fascinating.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  I drink like 200 to 300 ounces of, uh, Diet Mountain Dew for the most part. When, when I don't have Diet Mountain Dew, I switch to the hard stuff, which is Diet Coke. So I was glad that you had that here in the studio, but, uh, I kid, but it's, it's true. The first two ingredients in Diet Mountain Dew, if you check the ingredient label are

• 11:47Speaker 01

  orange juice and carbonated water.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  And I know there's a whole bunch of stuff that isn't healthy, that isn't good for you, but I always

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Got vitamin C.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  Ingredients and I, and, and I'm, I'm like the only one in my family who hasn't had kidney stones. Knock on wood. I'm, I've, I've been very fortunate, but it, it's my jet fuel, uh, cause I run hard. You know, I work typically 18, 20 hours a day, Monday through Friday and crashing the weekend, but.

• 12:17Speaker 02

  That's incredible. I don't know how you run the real estate business simultaneous to, you know, doing all you do at Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, that must be a lot to juggle.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  It's a balancing act. Uh, currently represent, I think 200 different properties available across five counties, over 30 cities. Some of the, the biggest commercial real estate projects, but at the same time I'm trying to be a good steward over what I believe to be the most important frontier science endeavor and, and trying to keep my team focused and, uh, intact, but also it's a dangerous place. We've had so many members of our team and visitors that have ended up in the hospital with mysterious illnesses, injuries. Bad things happen out there. So there's a real liability issue.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  And then you have the sensitivity of the ongoing scientific investigation. Every time you introduce people into that space, into that environment, it can have impact. It, it has both positive and negative effects. And where I think we're, we are observing phenomena that could be defined as malevolent at times, as negative or adversarial, as well as benign or even positive.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  You have to be careful. You're, you're stepping into the unknown. When you come out to Skinwalker Ranch, it's, uh, it's at your own risk.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  You probably remember, we have had everyone sign a liability.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. And well, we can get into some interesting experiences I had after the fact, which I know is not uncommon. Yeah.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness. Like, like

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Possibly a little hitchhiker. Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  You're kidding. So the hitchhiker effect, which I didn't believe in, and I thought was just mythology to a degree, or people,

• 14:07Speaker 01

  kind of just imagining things I, has come home to roost in my life. It, it took a lot of years, but, uh, it just in the last two years, I've witnessed the hitchhiker effect, unfortunately in my own life.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  Hitchhiker effect should probably be plural, not just a singular form of the term, because there are many effects. People would go to this property, encounter unusual phenomena, UFOs, whatever. And then they would go home and they were visited at their home by orbs, by craft, by crypto type beings. Poltergeist type activity broke out in their homes.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Before that time, before

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Any, any examples? Cause I remember, I remember, you know, four years ago when I visited, you were like, nothing's ever happened to me. I was like, this is remarkable. He's going back and forth, helicoptering in and

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Here, I'm the owner of the ranch and I'm stimulating this. I'm, I'm to some degree aggressively trying to document this for the first time.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  And I fully expected that if this, if there's any validity, the hitchhiker effect, it would be, it would be witnessed and it would come, come to my home, uh, both literally and figuratively.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  So that ended up happening?

• 15:17Speaker 01

  It's happened and it was unfortunate. We had, uh, we had an experiment that we were running that was really aggressive. And everything went wrong.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  What it involved?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  It was a couple of years ago and involved, uh, the helicopters, my helicopter and another helicopter. And we had an army of experts and, uh, equipment and something that day was not happy with the work we were doing. Something wanted, something or someone was active in the space and everything went wrong and haywire. And we, all of the instrumentation across the ranch was, was, uh, acting strangely, was behaving strangely. And then we had some unfortunate

• 16:05Speaker 01

  things occur. I mean, we were very lucky that people didn't die on that day. Um, you, you never want to put people in harms way, but this is, this is unknown. This is, this is a, an effort that deals with the unknown. And when I returned that night to my home, flew back for the next several weeks, starting that night, everything, everything felt different at home. Uh, we have a little shih-tzu. My wife and I, Kristen, have a little shih-tzu. I swear he runs the place. His name is Arthur. I don't know if you have any pets, but, uh, Arthur, the dog and, um, and he's, he's very docile, sleeps all night, is very quiet.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  But that night I got home, he got up on the edge of the bed and wouldn't stop growling. Like just Cujo like, just growling.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  Harshly into the corner of the room, into just kind of a dark corner of the room and wouldn't stop. And that proceeded about every night, right around 3:00 AM or so, he would get up and start growling and barking at something that wasn't there, that was unseen, which is uncharacteristic. I mean, this is a dog that's been with Kristen for, I don't know, eight, eight plus years. And so, um,

• 17:32Speaker 01

  there were a couple of other things that happened, objects that moved, that were moved by unseen forces and it was undeniable. And it was trickster like activity. It was not nice.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Do you remember an object that moved?

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Her wedding ring.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  So her wedding ring was actually moved. Um, and, um,

• 17:56Speaker 02

  It's not something you don't remember moving.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  No. And in fact, I, I wish she was here to tell the story, but she got up in the morning and she has a little dish, a little dish that she always keeps her jewelry in there on the, on her dresser. And every night takes off of, off her jewelry and everything else. Well, she got up the next morning, got ready and the ring was gone. And, and, uh, it, and she searched everywhere and she, everything else was there. Didn't know what to make of it. No one had been in our home that we were aware of. And

• 18:35Speaker 01

  she, uh, she ended up saying, she's a very spiritual person. So she ended up praying the rosary. She's Catholic, um, in her background, praying the rosary and saying prayer that she would find it was just frantic. And in her mind's eye, she saw that ring in the pocket of a robe that we had acquired at a hotel. It was in her closet that she hadn't worn for months. And she literally got up from prayer, walked into her closet, searched for that robe that she had not worn in months. Dipped into that pocket and it was there.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  And I know everyone's gonna, who knows how people react to this story. This is the first time I've ever told this. I've never, ever told this story in public and I, it really isn't my story to tell, which is kind of my wife's mantra, but, but I don't think she'd mind me sharing it because it's real. It's true. But there were a number of other things that occurred that were a little bit unsettling and disturbing.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Orbs or?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  So she ended up having the house blessed, um, had someone come, uh, you know, a spiritual person come and sage the house and it went away.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  It abruptly left. The dog, uh, went back to its normal routine and we haven't had anything since, but, uh,

• 20:00Speaker 02

  Thank God.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  It was that night and followed for weeks. Now others on my team who've had the hitchhiker effect manifest have had much more unfortunate circumstances. I mean, they've had family members that have come to harm. They've had their, their security go crazy. I mean, and a lot of this, this isn't just tales. These aren't just anecdotal accounts. There's data.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  What are the most stark examples?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  A Thomas Winterton.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  One day I decided to do some digging.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  And then three days after, I noticed that I had a goose egg on the back of my head.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  My scalp separated from my skull. The pain is so excruciating. I've never felt anything like it before in my life.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  And not only was he hospitalized with, with, with an illness, with injuries that threatened his life that remain unexplained. I mean, the only thing that could explain his injuries is some type of beam energy device that irradiated the back of his head. But beyond that, as he's continued to forcefully help us try to get the answers and manage that ranch for me. I mean, he's been with me for over 10 years. Since April of 2016, shortly after I bought the ranch, I engaged him. Thomas has had things happen in his home upon returning from Skinwalker Ranch. I mean, we're talking about his automotive vehicles. Um, all of a sudden go haywire and crazy.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Security breached, uh, fires started. Uh, I, again, I, I'm now breaking my wife's rule. It's, it's not my story to tell. But Thomas, I don't think would have a problem going on record in stating that he and so many others have actually documented. We're talking about not just a witness, but they have documented with, with, with camera surveillance and other means, the reality of the hitchhiker effect. And it's real. And that's why you have to be very cautious. You have to be humble and reverent when tackling these topics because we're dealing with forces

• 22:12Speaker 01

  that are unknown and frankly, far beyond our capability. I mean, whatever we're dealing with has the ability to manipulate equipment, reprogram, very, very sophisticated, closed systems. And also even I think manipulate consciousness itself. We've even seen time-space. Uh, we've seen time act and behave differently on the ranch.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  It's almost, that's really, dude, to say more about that.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, GPS, I'll give you one, one major highlight that has been repeatable. And we have an abundance of data supporting GPS malfunctions and is manipulated on Skinwalker Ranch. It just does not operate. Imagine.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  And GPS is sort of based on, you know, relativity and, you know.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  And, and how billions of dollars worth of space assets, satellites coordinated with, uh, with our instrumentation on the ground. Just imagine, I mean, how much of our world today, even me coming here to this studio, was dependent on the accuracy and the reliability. Well.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  But it's also based on triangulating signals based on time.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  So that's why I'm like, oh yeah, I wonder if there's some time manipulation involved in the GPS failure.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  When Dr. Taylor and others speculate that there's a portal for portals or wormholes on Skinwalker Ranch. They're, they're basing that on real world data and observations that point to that being a potential, a potential reality. They're not just making that up. They're not just pulling that out of thin air. There are anomalies.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  So like a mini black hole or something?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Or a portal, uh, uh, think of an interstellar, a, a stargate, an interstellar highway potentially that provides passage or transit between dimensions or worlds.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  So interesting because you have hawking radiation coming out of black holes traditionally.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Electromagnetic fallout. And then you have this concept John Wheeler proposed called Wheeler tunnels, named after him, where maybe there are little wormholes all over the world and, and all over the universe. And this would be a way to kind of, you know, transport yourself, you know, I, who knows if they're biologically traversable. Eric Davis wrote, you know, a whole paper about biologically traversable wormholes. But there would be electromagnetic fallout and you guys measure all sorts of electromagnetic anomalies all over the ranch.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Well, and those anomalies, those electromagnetic anomalies or fingerprints often correlate with the appearance of unidentified aerial phenomena. Equipment malfunction, even acute medical episodes. And that's the thing, when you have the, these correlations, when you have simultaneous electromagnetic anomalies, acute medical episodes, unidentified aerial phenomena, all appearing and documented by instrumentation. We're talking high-speed cameras, uh, all sorts of tracking.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Tri-field meters.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Surveillance. Yeah, you bet. A diversity of scientific platforms that all operate and function differently, but are all indicating that something is changing within the space.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  It seems to occur often in the ultra-high frequency microwave range. And there's a specific signal that you guys keep receiving in the 1.6 gigahertz.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  It's intriguing. And we, we have yet to identify the source, the origin, and we've scanned that property. I mean, people all, all the time challenge me also on the environmental. They're like, well, there must be some radioactive material. Well, we've brought some of the leading environmental testing companies in the country. I mean, these people, these companies have worked on programs for the federal government, for, for the private sector and are, are truly the experts and they can't find any origin associated with that. They can't, they can't locate it, yet it's, it's there. It's transient. It comes and goes.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Erik Bard, our principal investigator and chief scientist over the last 10 years, uh, initially identified an electromagnetic signature or a fingerprint associated with much of the phenomena or the, the events.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  What is that signature?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Well, we, it was first seen when he visited the ranch that day that I became a, an experiencer. I went from being a skeptic to an experiencer within a matter of minutes. He's pointing up ahead and I looked to exactly where he's pointing straight ahead of us above the mesa. And there is literally a silver grayish disc-like object about a hundred feet above the mesa, just sitting there suspended in the air. And on that day, the equipment started malfunctioning. You know, smartphones started behaving strangely and, and he was able to later replicate those anomalies by focusing intense electromagnetic force

• 27:40Speaker 01

  using a, a large magnet, a neodymium magnet in order to actually repeat the effect, the experiment, which is both exciting and troubling. That was covered in our first season of our docu-series in real time. In fact, he brought out the case, you know, with this dangerous magnet. You don't want to be exposed to.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Dangerous. Those will rip through your body if they're on either side.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he, he demonstrated the effect and a lot of people, it went over everyone's head. I would say it went over 99% of people's heads. They didn't, they were like, oh, that's, that's dumb or that, that doesn't, you know, that isn't a flying saucer dropping down the middle of a field right behind the, the command center. But it was so profound.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  It helps us understand. It's, it's a, you know, when Bob Lazar was given, you know, this craft to work on. It was like, how do you parallel engineer? Not how do you reverse engineer? How do you figure out through prosaic, conventional, you know, human technology, how to recreate the effect? And obviously that'll give you insight into how these things are flying, what's working. So totally makes sense.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  You conduct experiments and you repeat the experiments.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  And that's what we have been doing for years is conducting experiments. And there's no off-the-shelf platform or solution.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  And clearly something here is at play. Like if you were to bring, you know, I just debated Michael Shermer on the show and like.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  I loved it. Great episode. And it was great to, uh, great to see Michael Shermer address these questions directly.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  And these topics. Um, I am an.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  Cause there's nothing you could say.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Well, don't hold this against me, but I, every month I read cover to cover skeptic magazine.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  You do do that. I, I think that's really cool.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  So I, I have for the last probably longer than owning Skinwalker Ranch. For, long before owning Skinwalker Ranch, I made it a point with my visits to Barnes and Noble on the weekend to pick up the latest skeptical journals, Skeptical Inquirer and, and Skeptic Magazine, because I, I appreciated a lot of the content there. I appreciated that it challenged some of my beliefs or some of the grand claims that are made on a, on a regular basis in our culture. And, uh, and I, I welcome critical thinking. In fact, I enjoy

• 30:08Speaker 01

  critical thinking as a necessary part of, of progression. And, uh, as I mentioned, I, I was a skeptic. I mean, by the time I acquired the ranch, I was convinced personally that there was no validity to the paranormal, the UFO claims. I, I had lost my faith in organized religion at the time and had grown greatly discouraged. And, and I was consuming a lot of skeptical

• 30:42Speaker 01

  material and, and feeding that part of my curiosity and doing my due diligence. But I was wrong. Uh, to, to be honest, it's been humbling because I've, I've come full circle. I've had to admit that I was wrong. I had to admit that there are things that I misjudged.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  I mean, if, if you watch the show, there's just an overwhelming amount of evidence that you provide. Now, I think what some skeptic could come in and say is like, is, is this all perfectly repeatable? Maybe not, because there's, seems like there's an intelligence on the other side.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Sure. We're not in control.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  It's a game of cat and mouse. Exactly. But there's certain, I mean, you know, one example is you find this cow, you know, it's been totally mutilated. I believe the blood has been, you know, sucked out of it. Yeah. I think you bring in Linda Moulton Howe.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, it, actually the calf had died under mysterious circumstances, perfectly healthy calf.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  Hey y'all, I'd recommend not to touch it till we see if it's radioactive or not.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Um, it was unusual. It had been in great health and then had just killed over and, and upon investigating the calf, you know, the equipment, in fact, Thomas Winterton's smartphone started completely going haywire. And then Caleb benches our security, who is actually active law enforcement, his smartphone started completely malfunctioning upon entering that field in that space. Well, one thing that is an important side note that may or may not have relevance, but I think it's interesting. They had different type, one had a Samsung device and one had an iPhone. So different operating systems, both behaving

• 32:35Speaker 01

  strangely at the same time. And then upon testing the, uh, the, the calf, it was really interesting. We couldn't find any known reason for what had happened, but we pulled up the surveillance footage to find out what happened, at what time did it collapse? Did it go down? And was there anyone there? Was there any, any person that was involved, you know, or another animal? What, what, what may have led to it? And we captured on camera a, an object. I can't help but also notice that there's something happening here. Yo, whoa, look at that.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  The moment that that object appeared above the cow, the cow was reacting. Yes. And I'm telling you, it was right, right at the time that this calf went down, just south, just footsteps from Homestead One, from the command center.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  That's a good example where it's like, that object isn't one of your drones, you know what I mean?

• 33:44Speaker 01

  No. And, and it's, it's moving. I mean, we, we had several frames of it. It's not a bug. I mean, we had several, um, high-speed camera experts take a look at it. Um, it's, it, it's honestly an unidentified flying object.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  And radiation is coming off of the cow even after it's dead.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Correct. Now, going back to the earlier accounts, uh, during the Bigelow era, you know, my predecessor, they did have many cattle mutilation events where on the property, on Skinwalker Ranch, the perfectly, what was a perfectly healthy animal, ended up being dissected and drained of its blood. And no trace evidence, no evidence, no blood surrounding or underneath, uh, no evidence of anyone coming or going. Uh, I mean, it being done in broad daylight, right there in the middle of the field, right under everyone's noses, you know, that right under, under their noses. And I've seen the reports. I

• 34:49Speaker 01

  mean, one thing I appreciate about, uh, Robert Bigelow's investigation is, you know, he brought in experts as well. He had a veterinarian or he had a, uh, was a, he was an expert, a doctor, Dr. Onette, who actually, um, was brought in immediately to conduct their necropsy on the animals and was on call and provided a, you know, an extensive analysis.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  And the animals seem inedible. They're obviously scavenger animals that generally, you know, would eat the carcass of a dead animal. And some of these animals seem just untouched and they don't decay in normal ways. You have a biologist, Ben Woodruff, who documents a lot of this stuff.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. That's the thing. The rate of decay and decomposition on Skinwalker Ranch is dramatically different than anything that, that has been observed in nature typically. And

• 35:43Speaker 02

  What, what do you attribute that to? That's so strange.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Uh, we don't know, but it is strange. And that very calf that died under mysterious circumstances with the UFO and all of the, the equipment malfunctions, uh, that we documented. Nothing, no scavenger activity, nothing, nothing touched that animal, that carcass. And even a year later, it remained untouched. Where other animals that die from time to time, you know, you do see coyotes show up and you, you have, you know, in fact, it's, it's not uncommon within hours to see every trace of, of a carcass removed by scavenger

• 36:30Speaker 01

  activity. But on this ranch, it's, uh, it's unpredictable.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  I want to talk about the history of the ranch because it is fascinating. So let's go back to, you said, you went to Basin, it's on the eastern side of Utah, right?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Northeastern Utah.

• 36:46Speaker 02

  Northeastern Utah. Let's go back to this conflict between the Navajo and the Utes. Can you describe this and why it's so kind of essential to the story here?

• 36:55Speaker 01

  Well, the, the Navajo and the Utes had conflict and, um, and the Utes were siding with the government, with the United States government. Um, the Utes were even selling the Navajo into slavery at that point. And as we've been told, the Navajo ended up being, being driven away and, and cursed the property. There was a curse placed on this property. In fact, for generations, the ridge, the Mesa Plateau that runs the expanse of the property from east, west, that has been a, a large focus of our investigation the last

• 37:33Speaker 01

  few years. Uh, surprisingly, it was historically called Skinwalker Ridge. And that Skinwalker Ridge moniker, which was conveyed to the Bigelow team and to others, ended up being really the catalyst for referring to the ranch as Skinwalker Ranch. So Skinwalker Ranch derives its name not only from the Native American curse, but the ridge that runs across the property and the lore surrounding it stating that this property was cursed to be forever in the path of the Skinwalker, that this is where these demonic shape shifting,

• 38:13Speaker 01

  uh, figures would be essentially sequestered, that this would be their dwelling place. And it was funny, the first day I saw this ranch, when I came out to inspect it in tandem with closing on the acquisition back in 2016, you know, I dropped down in the helicopter and, and the first time I saw it was coming in from the air and I was awestruck at the beauty. I mean, just the, the beauty of this huge expansive red rock mesa plateau and waterways that cut through the property, these old homesteads that are kind of hidden in, in clusters of, uh, of trees. And as we drop down in the meadow, which is now where

• 38:58Speaker 01

  we have our heliport. And I've constructed a sophisticated helicopter landing point along with other structures that are, that are part of the monitoring, monitoring effort there. Bigelow Security walks out, greets us, you know, sidearm, right there at the ready and proceeds to give us a, an initial tour of the perimeter of the property. Well, Jesse, one of the most ominous indications that, that there was something different about this property was the fact that there were these carcasses, there were these animal parts hanging from the fence line.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And, uh, it, it was kind of gross to be honest with you. I was like, what? Why? And I asked Bigelow Security, I said, what's, what is the nature of this stuff that's hanging from the fence line? You know, it looks like body parts. It looks like the animal carcasses. And he says, yeah, the, they, the Native Americans have been hanging these and blessing these animal bladders to keep the demonic activity on this property and off their property.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Is three of four sides of this property, uh, they're bounded by Native American tribal.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  It was like, these were like offerings or something.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. They're hanging and blessed to actually form a spiritual

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Wild.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  perimeter.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  And to this day, if you meet anybody from the Navajo tribe and you bring up Skinwalkers, they'll often say, don't go there.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Well, they don't even, they don't even want to utter the word. They don't want to speak about Skinwalkers. I mean, when I purchased the property, I was told by several local, um, leaders that they, their people have been told not even to look the direction of this property for generations.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  For fear that phenomena would follow them, for fear that it would attach and follow them.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  So to see mythology or lore turn into reality and actual data points, documented data points today, really indicating there is a, there's a reality to the hitchhiker effect. There's a reality to the fact that the phenomena does follow. It does attach itself to those at times who visit the property that are involved with this effort. It's, it's sobering. So did you experience the hitchhiker effect? So what?

• 41:38Speaker 02

  I did.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  So you came out, we flew you out to Skinwalker in the helicopter.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Very gracious, amazing time.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Great to give you a briefing. We've had some of your associates in your professional life that came out for a briefing as well. And it was fun to, to actually brief them and have their eyes on the data.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  What happened? We've never been able to catch up and talk about this.

• 42:05Speaker 02

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• 42:50Speaker 02

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• 43:34Speaker 02

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• 43:58Speaker 01

  What happened? We've never been able to catch up and talk about this.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, okay. Had a great time on the ranch, had a great time with you. I was blown away at all of the cool sensors, instruments, experiments you guys had done. I was sort of, you know, early in my UFO investigation, you know, world. And I, you know, honestly was coming in somewhat skeptical. I had, you know, just met Lu Elizondo, who was like, you need to pray before you go. And I've heard that from a couple of other people, you know, you need to go in with reverence. And I was like, ah, you know, I'm, I'll be fine, you know? I still went through the motions, but um, it was probably, you know, to be a little more vulnerable and introspective.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  It was at a time in my life where I was probably getting a little ahead of my skis. I was, you know, very interested in investing and making money. And I had these two sides of myself, the nature of reality side. And then this like, you know, just wanting to, you know, climb the ladder. I was very ambitious. And they were very kind of compartmentalized. And I think I was probably kind of, you know, shoving this in the trunk. And I wasn't probably giving it its proper due and they weren't fully integrated. And so I'm sure there was some part of me that was, you know, I had, I had a little ego, you know?

• 45:17Speaker 01

  And, and I know. Well, and it's hard not to be enthusiastic and to get, I have to check myself every day.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Um, because I'm, I'm a driven person. Anyways, it's hard to interject.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  No, it's.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  I totally understand.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  It's the classic kind of, you know, plight of, of man as you're so curious and you want to know, as you know, you know, all this stuff that we're describing here is traditionally thought of as forbidden knowledge. And there are all these myths around these. There's a great book by Roger Shattuck called Forbidden Knowledge. Usually the myths don't end well, but there's a straight and narrow path that you can walk where you can end, you know, can end very well, you know? And so it's, it's a very, it's a very hard thing to discuss, but I, I came in probably with not enough reverence. So that would be my, my take on myself. And I, you know, we went, it was an amazing experience. It was so fun to learn about the history and to meet you and to meet the whole team.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  And, um, but nothing crazy happened, right? Which is like 90% of cases.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Which I warn you, I, I tell everyone that comes out to the ranch, don't expect anything unusual to happen. I owned the ranch for six months.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  And had been visiting pretty, pretty constantly to get briefed on how the survey work was going before I ever personally.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Saw or experienced anything.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  And I fully expected that there wasn't anything to it. So you never know.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  I mean, a tri-field meter did go off. There were a couple of things that happened with our phones. So like, there was definitely some anomalous electromagnetic activity.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 02

  At the end of our time, we're standing around, you know, about to board the helicopter to go back. And I say, I smell sulfur.

• 47:06Speaker 07

  It smelled like sulfur or whatever. Oh, really?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  And, um, I think Dragon, uh, you know, your security guy, he, he's like, uh, oh, we have this way of testing whether it's real sulfur, if it's like kind of more in your mind.

• 47:22Speaker 07

  So this is a hydrogen sulfate gas monitor. Yeah. So I wear this so that if someone says that they smell something like that, we know the weather, it's really gas or if it's something happening up here. Cause people that have had instances. Is anything coming out? No. Okay. No. So.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  And he was like, it doesn't look like there was a gas leak. It's not real sulfur. I think it's like something that you're tuning into. And I was like, what? And I like forgot about it, right?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Get back to LA where I'm living at the time and I had the worst month of my life. I, just a string of bad things happening. I give you like, you know, maybe a couple of highlights, but um, uh, I, I ended up in a, in a building. Actually I went to work early. Um, and I was there at like 6:00 AM. No one was there. Uh, and I was there alone. And I'm in the building we work at and an armed gunman runs into the building. And so I'm basically alone in this kind of commercial building in LA. And, uh, and there's this armed gunman there and I'm getting calls, you know,

• 48:31Speaker 02

  from the company I used to work with, being like, there's an armed gunman, like, you know, protect yourself. You know, I'm like, wow, there's not much we can do for you. You know, he's in the building. And, um, I ripped the sign off the bathroom door. So it looked like this, like cabinet. And I like locked myself in the bathroom and I think I took a knife in there. And I just started praying for my life. And that was like a Tuesday of this month. That was, that was probably anomalously bad.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  But I had a lot of bad days.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  You just had a sequence of events that happened.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  It was, uh, have you ever seen the movie After Hours by Martin Scorsese?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  It was like, uh, you know, that it was like Dante's Inferno, you know, it was like, woo. You know, like, okay, another thing, another thing. And I was like, I remember by the end of it, I was just praying to God. I was like, I, whatever I've done to deserve this, I please, I'll change my ways. You know, and, uh, and then that really helped and it went away. And, um, you know, I still probably have, I don't know, I, I describe myself as, you know, uh, somewhat agnostic, but, but I want to experience God. And I would say that, um, that reinforced my belief. Because, uh, you know, the fact that, you know, praying caused the thing to go away. I was like, whoa.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Which, which speaks to the power of prayer.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Consciousness and, and a divine, that there is a, a divine source or a higher power. I, I, I think that there's good reason to be cautious when.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  When approaching these topics, uh, my wife and I will never allow any of our children, who are now all adults, to set foot on the property, simply because I've seen the harm that has come to several people that I love, that have been on this property, that are part of this investigation, or have visited.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  We're dealing with forces that, that we don't quite understand. And I think that there is an effort to try to thwart, to try to deceive or halt the investigation. Because I think the, you know, what we're tapping into, what we're discovering, and, and disclosing to the world, could very well usher in, I think, a new understanding of, of really our place in it.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  It's interesting, you know, in a lot of different traditions, if you're trying to get to the sacred knowledge, or kind of the holiest of holies, there are demigod beings guarding that knowledge. And there's a resistance to you getting there. And so do you sometimes think about that? And there this in that context?

• 51:20Speaker 01

  You know, we have people that approach us, um, uh, very respected leaders, people that have different perspectives on what is happening. I mean, we've had people that, uh, come from various traditions that, uh, that claim that the data shows that it's a gin, that what we're dealing with is, uh, is a gin, uh, or, or similar phenomena. I mean, every culture has its traditions, has its, has its, uh, mythology, or-

• 51:53Speaker 02

  But almost all of those cultures have consciousness between man and God.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Correct, correct.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Often that mess with our perceptions, or as you were talking earlier, I almost was thinking, is this like Descartes demon? You know, because it's like 360 control of your perception. If you're talking about manipulating time, you know, that all things are possible at that point.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we're so fragile. I mean, mortality is so fragile. Um, this human experience that we're all part of is, it's delicate. It's, it's, uh, it's not something to be taken lightly.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  No, not to be trifled with. And it's interesting that, you know, it's really cuts to the kind of meek shall inherit the earth thing, where I remember, you know, when I went, I was speaking to you and, and Eric and, you know, a lot of the investigators, and they were like, people with bigger egos seem to get hit or tagged more. And so the, you know, example you guys brought up was this Hells Angels chieftain. Is it a coincidence he was Hells Angels?

• 53:00Speaker 08

  You're asking the right question.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Who was in a frozen in a catatonic state?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, for 10 minutes.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  For 10 minutes on the mesa?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, this individual, it was actually at Homestead three. It was behind Homestead three. We, we were out exploring the property and we all exited this open air UTV Polaris Ranger. It's still out there. We have to keep, keep it running. It's, it's, it's falling apart. Um, but, uh, we had all kind of jumped out of this vehicle to go walk around the other side of Homestead three, which is the oldest structure on the property. And it's a structure that some people refuse to enter. I mean, my wife will not enter that property. She just does not feel comfortable entering Homestead three, for whatever reason. We've

• 53:51Speaker 01

  had other visitors, Trent Resner, uh, who I love, one of the most-

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Legend.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's one of, when I, one of the, the most intelligent people I know, and, and one of the most talented, came out and we were anxious to have him, uh, look at the audio, uh, the anomalous audio, uh, you know, data that we had collected and some of the other-

• 54:15Speaker 02

  You should make a song with the anomalous audio.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  No kidding. Would that be amazing?

• 54:19Speaker 02

  That'd be pretty cool.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  And I think even he hesitated, and for good reason. I mean, there, I think people are very wise to follow their, their intuition, those promptings.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, well, maybe I ended up there before.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  But the, but the Hells Angels, so it was the-

• 54:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  The former president of a large chapter of the Hells Angels was there as attending security. We all jumped out. After about 10 minutes, we'd realized that he was gone, that he hadn't accompanied us. So I went to go seek him out. As I walked around the back of Homestead three, and it's kind of high grass, this is October, um, this is fall, and, uh, all of a sudden I had this auditory sensation, like I, like I'd entered either a soundproof room, or I'd gone underwater, you know, that you, this same sensation when you, when you cup your ears. And it was very, very strange. And then, then he came in with insight. He, I see him out in the distance, standing fully upright in the back of this

• 55:24Speaker 01

  UTV that we had all traveled in out there. And as I continued to walk toward him, I yelled his name, and it was, it was that weird sensation. I remember it was like this very similarity, like yelling underwater. And by the time I came up to him, after shouting his name a couple of times, all of a sudden, instantaneously, right within getting within feet of him, all of the sound, all the ambient noise, everything returned, and his eyes fluttered open. And he looks down at me, and he says, whoa, that was weird. And I, I, I'm like, what, what was weird? What's happened? What have you been doing? And he says, well, how

• 56:06Speaker 01

  long have I been, how long have I been here? And, and I said, well, we all got out, we haven't seen you for the last 10 minutes. And he proceeds to relate that, uh, when we all got out of the vehicle, he stood up and was frozen, was unable to move, couldn't open his mouth, couldn't move his head, and everything went black. And the next thing he knew, I was standing before him, asking him what was wrong, what was up. And he was shaking his head, saying, well, that was, that was weird. And I said, has this ever happened to you? Is this something that you've experienced before in your life? He said,

• 56:46Speaker 01

  no. Well, the funny thing is, after he returned home, uh, my principal investigator, Eric Bard, followed up with him independently, just to check on things and to get his testimony relative to what he had witnessed that day, including a dramatic UFO sightings right in front of us, uh, that, that lasted for about 20 seconds. And, um, and he had checked himself into the hospital for weeks upon returning from Skinwalker Ranch. He had been rendered completely immobilized, couldn't get out of bed, doctors didn't know what

• 57:24Speaker 01

  hit him, whether it was some powerful strange virus, but he couldn't move and was hospitalized for, for weeks, immediately following his visit. And to this day, I mean, that is, it's one of those, those profound data points, experiences. And that day was one of those days where we had those correlations, you know, smartphones malfunctioning, rapid battery depletion, all of our smartphones going from really almost a full charge to zero, to this gentleman being rendered, rendered catatonic, you know, and, and really out for 10 minutes. We don't know what happened during that, that missing time.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  And just recently, you had another cardiac arrest episode? Who, who is Tom Lewis? And what happened to him?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Well, Tom was one of our caretakers. And when we were, you know, simultaneous with actual drilling activity, you know, there below the mesa, right as they were commencing drilling, and that, that signal, that 1.6 gigahertz signal appeared, all of a sudden, our caretaker ends up being brought to his knees, has to be run to the airport, or not, run to the doctor, to the hospital.

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Are you okay?

• 58:45Speaker 02

  No, I just, I just blacked out.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  And took him off the property to go get medical attention and it ended up in the hospital. And they didn't know what caused it. They have a cardiac episode in tandem with the, the digging activity that was happening and the potential correlation with the signal that appeared. Who knows? I mean, correlation is not causation. That's something we always have to remind ourselves of. You know, correlation does not mean causation, but when you have enough correlations.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  You have to start looking at the data through a different lens.

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Well, you have enough people who work there getting hospitalized in sort of inexplicable ways. Like the Thomas Winterton case, it was like fluid in the back of his head, right?

• 59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, his scalp had been separated from his skull.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, like what is that, you know?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  We've got hundreds of pages of medical data of research. We, we actually had a medical expert come in from outside to analyze the, the material and it's still, it's still unexplained. It's still baffling. And, you know, some of these, some of these episodes, you know, they, we have to be very, very careful. That's why we carry the tri field meters. That's why we monitor the environment. I mean, it's, it's, it's imperative that we're taking data from, from, um, from a multitude of different platforms because we don't know what kind of patterns may emerge that may help us understand what is happening.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  And it's almost like the ranch itself has an intelligence and has an allergic reaction to the investigators doing certain things for a while. You couldn't dig, is that right? And if you did dig, bad things would happen?

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was, that was what we were told when I bought the ranch. I was told, you know, don't, when you disturb the earth, negative things happen. And that, that was something that had been passed on.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I, given what I had witnessed personally, I felt like it was necessary to, to follow that guidance to try to avoid any harm coming to people or anything negative happening. But

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  science investigation requires risk.

• 1:01:07Speaker 01

  It's, you know, I'll tell you, Thomas Winterton, who probably has the greatest motivation to be off the ranch. I mean, he has, he has total justification to walk away from this effort over the course of the last 10 years. Is insistent on being there and being a constant presence and running the experiments to find out what we're dealing with. Who or what are we dealing with? What, what is, what is the origin and the agenda associated with the phenomena? And hopefully we're, we're going to get some answers here and we have. I think we, we have unveiled discoveries year after year. I, I think you can state relative to the docu-series, episode after episode, we're showing

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  hard data, we're showing third party experts going on record with scientific instrumentation and, and hard data relative to the reality that there is truly strange phenomena occurring on this property.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  In the medical field, there is something called a Hertzheimer's reaction. And it is curing the body of something, but you feel the malady as it's coming out of your body. So say you have like a fungal disease, you take an antifungal. You have this die off effect and your immune response is triggered because you kind of experienced the disease over again before it comes out. Do you think that what some of these people are experiencing? Cause it's fascinating that, you know, Thomas Winterton and a lot of these people, they, they experience things and then they want to come back. And I think about like psychedelic experiences and it's often described as like

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  impurities within oneself get excavated and come out. Do you think there's something to that with this portal? You enter the portal and anything ill intended about you or, you know, you, maybe a part of yourself that's not fully integrated with the rest. That gets tagged with the, with the bad stuff and then and you feel it or something.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  You know, that, that, that may be a valid explanation. I think one thing we have been observing is that

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  the ranch appears to amplify consciousness.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  Amplify.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Heighten your senses. I think it amplifies intent. I mean, those who bring positive have at times said that they felt very positive things happen. Those who bring negative activity or a negative adversarial attitude end up having that visited upon them or that amplified on the property.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  That's what they call psychedelics, non-specific amplifiers. What, so what, what's an example of a positive thing?

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Oh, we've had some, I mean, you know, one of our most controversial figures on the ranch is of course my head of security for years, Dragon.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Bryant Dragon Arnold. And he's my old mission companion. We served Mormon mission together. He was my, my trainer for, for months, my first companion in the field. And we've been good friends for over 30 years as a result of that bonding experience. But he

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Dragon, who lost his father and his, his, uh, missed his dad who was his mentor is, I think he's, he's had experiences on the property where he's felt his father's presence, where he's felt that in a, in a positive way.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  It was funny, Dragon was one of those for years that didn't see anything, experience anything. He felt like he was repellent to the phenomena, which was interesting. We all would joke about it and of course everything comes. Ultimately you spend enough time there and things happen in the environment that, that shift you from being a skeptic to a, to an experiencer. I think most people who have spent time, devoted time on the ranch have seen, have seen that shift from being skeptics or open minded even skeptics to,

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  to full on experiencers are the crew who, who are dedicated every year to documenting what is happening with the documentary series effort, which, which is only about 14 weeks out of the year. I mean, we're running the investigation year round and a lot of these experts like Pete Kelsey, Chris Roberts are, are archaeologists. Our ground penetrating radar experts, they're there. They come back periodically, whether there are cameras or not, under my guidance and, and my pocketbook to continue getting data. But it's funny. Those individuals have come back and, and, and most of, most of those third party credentialed

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  experts all leave with,

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  with data and with firsthand witness that there is something strange going on, on that property.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Has anybody come in fully skeptical and left completely kind of converted that there's something there?

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, many.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Many.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Numerous, numerous. I think many people come to the ranch, these experts actually wanting to debunk it. In fact, it's, it's in their professional interest to bring their science and their technology, their expertise to find a prosaic natural explanation. It's not in their interest to, to have their equipment end up being destroyed and them sitting there scratching their heads on camera. These people are coming at great risk. They're putting themselves not only in harm's way, physically relative to the phenomena, but they're also putting their reputations on the line and people don't, people don't register that. They all think that it's television that these people are making big bucks. They're not making a bunch of money.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  I mean, they, they're being paid a modest stipend or consulting, you know, contract to be able to come and, and share their expertise and perform their work. But, you know, most of these people, you know, they're not looking to get famous. They're just performing a, a function and they are coming onto the ranch many times as absolute skeptics. Bound and determined to show that their approach, that their equipment, that their expertise is going to help us understand that there's a natural prosaic explanation and they leave like us with, with more questions than answers. I mean, the drone, you look at sky elements, you've got one of the biggest drone operators in the planet. They have two Guinness Book of World's Records.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  They put hundreds of drones in the air. They've, they've performed some of the most well-choreographed precision drone

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  exercises and they've, they've sustained so much damage. And we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to their equipment. And they've seen it completely outright manipulated on that property.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  What the heck's going on?

• 1:08:46Speaker 05

  It's raining drones over here. Raining drones.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Hundreds of drones.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  All tested in the minutes beforehand. Batteries fully charged. All of their operating systems verified to be fully functioning and in sync. And within minutes of launching above the triangle, above the, the east field. All of them start behaving mysteriously and start dropping like bricks from the sky. We, I mean, we had one of the most terrifying incidents and experiments with, with that exercise. Where people could have died. I mean, we're talking about these things dropping from hundreds of feet in the sky.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Raining drones.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  It was, it was something I'll never forget.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Has anybody come a skeptic, spent a substantial amount of time at the ranch and left a skeptic?

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  No one who's spent a substantial amount of time.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  To my knowledge, anyone who's spent a dedicated amount of time.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Has, has left at least acknowledging that, that their, the equipment doesn't function, that there's something in the space.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  That is manipulating things and, and, and not, not explained.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  There is one reporter turned internet troll, Stephen Green.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  He spent one night, spent one night on the ranch and he came in obviously with confirmation bias.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  And the problem is if you come in with confirmation bias and you are only cherry picking. The, the data points that are shared with you are those things that you're documenting that support your narrative.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  Then you're, you're going to, you're going to veer that direction. I mean, he completely ignored the, the testimony of the deputy sheriff.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Chris Poret, who went on record that long before the Shermans, I mean, back to the Myers in the 1980s. He was responding to cattle mutilation events, UFO activity, other high strangeness on the property.

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  The original owners of the Myers.

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  That owned it for decades. And the Jonathan Edith Myers.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  The Sherman, and I think, yeah, we don't have to spend too much time on it.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  Back on, on reporters, on that journalists in particular, I mean, there are so many data points.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  That were completely ignored. Because they didn't fit a negative skeptical narrative.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  I don't have a problem with critical thinking or skepticism. I, I don't, I, but I do have a problem with cherry picking the data. I mean, we can do the same thing.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  Well, it's also like you could, yeah, you could cherry pick and then you can also describe things in a way that makes them seem funny or silly. But I guarantee you, he wouldn't want to spend a month on the ranch, probably because I think it wouldn't seem so funny or silly then, you know?

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  No, and. Everyone, everyone has a different journey. I, you know, I, I, I'm very open and transparent and hopeful that those who look at the data, those who look at the facts.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Will, will hopefully learn something from them that will be part of that journey.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  You mentioned the Myers and the Shermans, the Shermans owned the ranch before Bigelow. And I believe they report seeing this sort of werewolf creature.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, large dire wolf that actually attacked their prized cattle. I mean, they were terrorized by UFOs. They had all sorts of poltergeist like activity. They had these huge wolf like creatures that, that attacked their cattle.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  They shot it with a shotgun at close range and it survived?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  12 gauge shotgun and, and survived, just walked off casually. We have all of these reports that were actually ultimately documented by the Deseret News, by a journalist Zach Van Eyck is his name. He's still active and his story actually was brought to the attention of Robert Bigelow. And led to Mr. Bigelow flying in and acquiring the ranch, meeting with the Sherman family. Being convinced that it's absolutely real, that what they were experiencing was real. I believe they showed him a lot of evidence. They had VHS tapes as well, from what I've been told. And, and we're talking within a rapid, rapid period of time.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  The Bigelow team lifted up, you know, three observation towers. We call them bait pens or observation towers. You've got these three observation towers that still sit ominously across the landscape of the property. Brought in a security trailer, you know, a four bedroom, double wide for the security and scientists to reside in that were cycling through. And.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  And they started taking data. I mean, I'd mentioned the veterinarian, the, the gentleman that was brought in to investigate the cattle mutilations and conduct. The, the necropsies and, and provide those reports. I mean, it was a very serious effort. The first of its kind under NIDS. And I, what a courageous, I, we stand on the shoulders of giants. I, I have to give credit where credit's due. Robert Bigelow had the courage to come out and spend his own money, time, and put his reputation on the line with his resource and his people to. To lock down this. Piece of property, this ranch and, and really study it.

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  So fascinating. Yeah, you have NIDS, National Institute of Discovery Sciences in the nineties, early 2000s. And then that kind of morphs into this officially funded program called OSAP, which is funded by Harry Reid, where you have Bigelow Aerospace officially. Studying the phenomenon at Skinwalker Ranch. This is written about in the book, in which book? The Secrets of Skinwalker Ranch?

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  No, it's actually in Skinwalkers of the Pentagon.

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Sorry, it's Skinwalkers of the Pentagon.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  There's a book.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  Was written just a few years ago. By Calum Kelleher, George Knapp, and, and another individual who'd actually been part of the military.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  James Katski, maybe?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and they, they go on record relative to the Pentagon funded black budget program that spanned years. With tens of millions of dollars focused on documenting the reality of the phenomenon and really the national security implications. Because let's face it, I mean, any place on the planet, especially here on the, on United States soil that is seeing this frequency of activity.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Is, that defies any explanation.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Apparently there's still stuff that might be classified about it. Peter Lovendo is a past guest on the show and he described a meeting with Chris Mellon and Hal Putoff where Skinwalker Ranch comes up. And he has to leave the meeting. Because he doesn't have the proper clearances.

• 1:16:00Speaker 09

  We asked about something concerning Skinwalker Ranch and an appearance at Skinwalker Ranch and the equipment that was there. They all got silent. They suddenly all stopped talking.

• 1:16:12Speaker 09

  And that was all he had to say.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  Skinwalker.

• 1:16:14Speaker 09

  For Skinwalker.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Why? So clearly, things were learned and gleaned, I imagine, in that timeframe that were sensitive. And that book is fascinating because they have this guy, I think his name is Axelrod, he's a pseudonym and he sort of studies the phenomena. But he was the chief Office of Naval Intelligence investigator on the Nimitz case in 2004. And he's, you know, showing up at Skinwalker Ranch and studying this stuff. Some people online have speculated that that might be Jay Stratten, who went on to run the UAP Task Force, which was the official investigation program. That like provided all of the data that David Grush ended up looking into and he, you know, took it further than anybody else on that UAP TF.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  And, you know, blew the whistle that he thinks there's, you know, been this multi decade long, you know, generational, multi generational, you know, reverse engineering and crash retrieval program of UFOs. So it's such an interesting history and Skinwalker Ranch is at the center of UFO history. It's not some ancillary, you know, just civil side thing. It's like, it's really, you know, kind of the epicenter.

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  It's the center of gravity, whether we like it or not. And it's not, it's not because we're trying to sensationalize it. It's, it's just a fact. There isn't another property, there's not, there's no other location like this. Where you have dozens of government, scientists, military researchers.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  All brought together over years to study the reality of the phenomenon. And even though that program ceased in 2013, just a few years before the transfer to me, those individuals that were part of that program have been forever changed. There are individuals that visited the ranch under that program that refused to ever set foot on the property ever again, that have refused.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  To come out. I mean, even Mr. Bigelow has refused to come out.

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Never wants to set foot on the property. In fact, he doesn't even want to be asked.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  You'll have to ask him.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It's not my story to tell.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  George Knapp and others that are closer to Mr. Bigelow have have discussed some of his potential motivations. It's a fact. It's in the public domain.

• 1:18:45Speaker 10

  I was, I got very disturbed toward the end.

• 1:18:50Speaker 10

  And I realized, holy crap.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Hitchhikers.

• 1:18:55Speaker 10

  Well, yeah, but you know, so hitchhikers being that you take, you take things home with you.

• 1:19:03Speaker 02

  Does that give you pause hearing that, hearing that a guy with, you know, a lot of resources like you have investigated this over decades? And he came out being like, I don't want to go back.

• 1:19:16Speaker 01

  Well, he, he had such negative experiences.

• 1:19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  It impacted his family.

• 1:19:25Speaker 01

  It, you talk about the hitchhiker effect.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Made manifest in such a negative, negative way. And his story may be one of the most profound.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Does that make you think twice?

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  Especially the last couple of years, the last two years. Every time I fly out there with my brother for a briefing.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  Anytime I'm on that property, I look at it differently. Because of the, the experiences that I've had and how much it has been brought home to roost. It's, you know, investigation at Skinwalker Ranch is not for the faint of heart. And I've, I've, I've found that it's, it's, it's had a very real physical impact on people's lives, including mine.

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  What did Bigelow say to you when gave you the keys to the ranch? Did he say, good luck?

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Well, he knew I was a skeptic. I mean, I, I thought I was truly going to debunk the property. I, I didn't think there was any validity to the claims. And I actually intended to donate it to the Boy Scouts of America for scouting programs. I, I loved scouting growing up, was an Eagle Scout, you know, along with my best friend, Chris Lee. We both got our Eagle Scouts together. And I thought it would, what an incredible place. I mean, it'd be great to have a piece of property in the basin to, to donate to that effort. I was on the board of the National Parks Council at the time. And I really just wanted to be satisfied that there wasn't anything unusual or negative

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  going on there and, and intended to donate it for that use. And of course, I, after six months of owning it, I went from being a skeptic to a, to an experiencer. And I know, I know that, you know, this is real, that we have hard data demonstrating that. And it's not for the faint of heart. This is not a place that you let the public in casually. There's a reason why we have a military grade gated entrance and a guard post there that, that, that actually people have to check in with. And there's a reason why we have over 80 surveillance cameras and multi-physics boxes

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  with edge processing. And we have a data center on site that is processing terabytes of data. It's not for a television docu-series. It's not just for some sensational bullshit, you know, ghost hunters-esque effort. This is a real world frontier science investigation that is documenting the reality of phenomena. I think better than anything else.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  And from the Bigelow days, you have all these real scientific papers, these dirds coming out about biologically traversable wormholes and quantum teleportation from really top scientists. I mean, you had Jim Lekatsky, who we mentioned earlier, who was a DIA rocket scientist. You have Eric Davis, who's as deep as anyone on kind of frontier propulsion modalities. He's written a book called Frontiers of Propulsion Science, where he basically goes through, you know, the gamut, like all, every single, you know, exotic propulsion modality. And so these are serious guys. Did Bigelow, you know, note your skepticism and say, oh, you'll see?

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. He said, good luck with that. I remember him saying something like, good luck with that. And I loved, loved all of our interactions. In fact, he's, he's, he's quite an interesting figure. I, I really enjoyed visiting him down in his element in North Las Vegas. He has a world-class aerospace compound and great success in the commercial real estate industry and the hospitality industry that I, that I respect. And, and I'd mentioned this earlier. I mean, we stand on the shoulders of giants. If not for his courage and his own curiosity and being willing to fund frontier efforts, we

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  wouldn't, I, I wouldn't have the privilege of being the steward of this property. It would have never been brought to my attention. And frankly, there wouldn't be an effort, a disclosure effort like this going on in the public eye. And even though our efforts are vastly different, it's apples and oranges. My, my investigation, the last 10 years is on a completely different scale and level. Those initial efforts, those foundational investigative efforts are still inspire and guide.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  I find his trajectory very interesting as well, where he, I think, probably starts off a little more nuts and bolts interested, you know? And now you have George Knapp testifying before Congress and others, you know, saying this publicly, that Lockheed Martin was trying to divest itself of UFO material in 2008 to Bigelow Aerospace. And they're even naming a guy, Jim Ryder, who was VP of Lockheed Martin Space Systems, who was in charge of this. And there's a speech that Jim Ryder gives that's available online, where he's talking about devas and fairies and gin, and he's talking about extrasensory perception and the veil thinning.

• 1:24:55Speaker 11

  And is that veil between what we call devas and fairies and mankind separating me more clear?

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  And so it's this like very spiritual guy working at Lockheed Martin, where clearly he's privy to knowledge beyond like what we think of as the scientific frontier. And then you have people naming him as the guy in charge of the UFO program, which is trying to divest itself of material to Bigelow Aerospace. So you think of Bigelow in the context of nuts and bolts. And then now he's funding essays about life after death.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  He seems to have kind of walked a more mystical path at the end of his life. And, and I'm curious about that trajectory. That's, that's interesting to me.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's consciousness studies. I mean, he's, he's, he's shifted his focus to consciousness related studies. I love, I love some of the work that has been done and the insights drawn from that. I find it really interesting. It's funny, there's a book, Dan Brown book, you know, who wrote the Da Vinci Code is called The Secret of Secrets. Have you read it?

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  No, I haven't.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Fantastic book. Takes place in Prague and, and deals with these topics, deals with.

• 1:26:11Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  You know, what happens when we die, you know, the, the nature of consciousness, which ties into what is the, what is the nature of reality itself?

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  And I love so much of the new thought and.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  In these areas.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  I think it's all interconnected. So when people ask me, is, is it aliens? Do you think it's aliens, beings from other worlds, or interdimensional, multi-dimensional? Is it time travel? Are we seeing time travelers, people coming back, our future selves watching us? Or is it spiritual? Are we dealing with angels and demons or some type of advanced consciousness? I think it's all the above. What we're seeing here, just as much as I've witnessed the nuts and bolts. I mean, what took me from being a skeptic to an experiencer was actually seeing what can only be described as a physical craft.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I mean, a flying saucer, 100 feet above the mesa in broad daylight, right in front of us, that perform maneuvers and, and operated in a way that just defies any conventional explanation. And it, I mean, you could see, it was late in the afternoon, you could see the sun kind of reflecting, glinting off of, you know, the side of it. And it was very real. And it was witnessed by, by all of us. I mean, we're sitting there, multiple witnesses.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  And this was immediately following, of course, all of the electromagnetic anomalies, the rapid battery depletion, the acute medical episode, and.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  And it was game changing. It's funny how something that

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  only spanned 20 seconds time changed my entire worldview and prompted me to question these things and frankly, start pouring millions of dollars at the time into into the infrastructure and the investigative tools to be able to document a day. So I think there is definitely a physical aspect of the phenomena that is very real, but there's also a metaphysical, there is a, there is another

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  aspect to it and it, there's, there's good reason behind calling it unidentified aerial phenomena as far as UFO because UAP almost it conjures up a little bit broader spectrum. Don't you think of

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  For sure. Yes.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  What you're, what is being documented and observed.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not just a craft. It's just a, you know, it's

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  Could be orbs of light. Yes. It's, it, there are, there is a diversity. It was so funny. Um, a couple of months after I bought the ranch. So I bought the ranch on April Fool's Day, 2016, and then by

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  No way.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  By June, funny, funny side note. Um, by June,

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  I was seeing photo images of craft of objects above the property that were, were highly unusual. You know, when checking the, the, the flight data for the UN to basin during those timestamps, during those periods of time, there was no commercial or private air traffic that, that was even remotely close. Um, and in, you know, the first image looked almost like a millennium falcon was a disc-like object that was, that was glowing. The, the second object that came a few weeks later was, was, was different structure, completely silent, observed by

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  three witnesses, my, my ranch, security and surveyor, along with my caretakers at the time. So there's a diversity of objects of craft, if you want to call them craft. There, there's a diversity of those things that are appearing, which speaks to there being potentially different propulsion systems at play, completely different origins and agendas. Um, the idea that we're living in a cosmic zoo, that this planet is for whatever reason being monitored,

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  is being, uh, closely watched, even manipulated by a diversity of beings of intelligences or, you know, with different origins and agendas, some malevolent, some not so.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  Do you ever flirt with the idea that the Navajo had it right? Have you looked into their sort of witchcraft traditions?

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  I think there's validity to every tradition. I mean, I, I am not going to dismiss any

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  respected, uh, cultural tradition.

• 1:31:13Speaker 02

  Cause I was doing a little Googling and it was like talking about luminous objects, these, you know, beings, you know, the skinwalker specifically going after animals. And it was like all these things that you're observing on the ranch. Um, so I found that fascinating.

• 1:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. The ancients were on to something. I mean, they, they weren't speaking ignorantly. I think they were very advanced. I mean, we, we've seen the evidence that society thousands of years ago before Christ, they, I mean, they were developing computing devices.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  I recently went to Athens, Greece to see the, uh, the Antithecara mechanism. Have you ever seen that in the Athens Museum?

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  I've seen it on my computer, but

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  I mean, this is hundreds of years before Christ and the technology that went into developing this device that was recovered from this ancient shipwreck. You just think, oh, how many years of engineering expertise went into that? And who's to say that that was even the most advanced of its time? It could have been one of the more rudimentary, one of the more basic

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  computing artifacts that actually could track the lunar phases of very sophisticated device.

• 1:32:20Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 1:32:21Speaker 01

  I think we're, we're still trying to understand our history.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  And the history of the world, I think so much has been buried.

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  I agree. I mean, like, look at the pyramids and the fact that you need, you know, I think one of the leading, you know, researchers on how it was built is a guy, John Pierre Hudin. And it's like, the fact that you have to go to some sort of internal ramp and that, you know, it's like external and then the, the incline goes, you know, isn't, is, you know, is, is too steep at a certain point and then it has to go internal and then you have to put the capstone on top. It's like we are, uh, contorting ourselves into all sorts of crazy gymnastic positions just to explain something that was supposedly built in 2500 B.C. Maybe it was built older than that.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Well, you've seen these, uh, these Italian scientists that have advanced, uh, new evidence.

• 1:33:18Speaker 02

  I've had them on. Yeah.

• 1:33:20Speaker 12

  We have measured approximately over one kilometer of depth. So the base of the pyramid to something that is located at the bottom.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  So eight pillars, you know, in this shape of an energy grid. Yeah. Beyond. Yeah. They've used synthetic aperture radar, Doppler tomography and this kind of specific inversion method that he's, you know, the software.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  We're quite familiar with it.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  Oh, there you go. Interesting. Okay.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Maybe they'll come out to Skinwalker Ranch. Wouldn't it be funny if they were involved with our effort in applying their technology to help us understand the nature of the landscape?

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  Wouldn't that be interesting?

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  Wouldn't that be interesting? All right. Well, stay tuned. That's exciting. Um, yeah.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  We're, we're not screwing around. Uh, we really are bringing in the leading experts.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  Well, you, you need that technology because there's something under the mesa.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. There definitely is. There's something under the mesa. I mean, to be extracting material that is manufactured, that's engineered from hundreds of feet within the mesa.

• 1:34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Heat, heat resistant ceramic tiles.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. With electromagnetic signatures.

• 1:34:33Speaker 02

  That are with electromagnetic signatures that seem to be self repairing at times that look like maybe tiles that you would see on like a space shuttle or something.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  So that is under the mesa and you have these two bore holes and you keep hitting metal and you have exotic elements. You have europium and tellurium down there. And so what, what is, what is down there?

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  Well, it's frustrating people all over the world right now. So we've got, we have millions of viewers, millions of enthusiasts that are quite frustrated because they want to see us blow up the mason and just get to it. And the reality is we, we can't do that. We have to con, conduct this, this effort like you would a medical biopsy, a very sensitive, delicate medical biopsy, because you don't want to destroy the very material that you hope to extract and be able to study. And so imagine if there's a stargate within the mesa, if there's some, some advanced technology that is behind

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  or involved with the phenomena that we're seeing manifest above and below the property, as above, so below, as the Masonic symbol on the property from ancient times seems to denote.

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  You don't want to damage the very thing that you hope to unearth. If, if it's, even if it's a, something as simple as a, a garage door opener equivalent to another dimension.

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:36:07Speaker 01

  You know, why would you want to, if that's ultimately what, what lies within the mesa that we're studying there on the ranch, we, we want to be very careful. And so we've used the most advanced ground penetrating radar.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  And what have you found?

• 1:36:20Speaker 01

  Uh, that there's, that there is material.

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

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• 1:37:51Speaker 02

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• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  And what have you found?

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  There's, there is material.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  It's six foot wide.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there's actually, there's, there's both a debris field of material that does not fit, that is unusual, that is not part of the natural, uh, part of the, the landscape, the soil composition that has been verified. They've even said that there are voids. It appears that there are voids, uh, within the mesa, uh, which, you know, that's what led us initially to do the ground penetrating radar studies on the mesa. It wasn't because we thought there was any exotic material. It was because there were rumors going back to the, the Bigelow era and even before, going back to the Myers, that there was a cave system, that there were tunnels,

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  that there was something covered up, that there had been a cover up relative to some type of underground structure. And so we thought, well, let's debunk it. I mean, because part of our scientific effort is to chase down these claims and to, to either validate them, see if there's any truth to them, or be able to dismiss it and move on to the next experiment, the next effort within our investigation. Well, we end up bringing in the experts in ground penetrating radar. And they're like, yeah, there's something strange here in this region of the mesa. There's this unusual material and these voids. So what do we do? Well, we start boring, we start drilling.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Well, every drilling expert, and I'm talking every one of them that we brought out, has had dramatic equipment malfunction. They've had their drill bits. I mean, these are, these are some of the most impervious drill bits. Uh, tungsten carbide steel that have been rendered completely damaged and unusable. These gentlemen that are performing these drilling exercises, they do this all over the world. They go through solid granite, they go through mountains.

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  And you found a, you found a nickel.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  It, it has been one of the most baffling parts of our research. And then, yeah, not, not only are we extracting engineered material from hundreds of feet within the mesa, but we recently brought out a 1964 aged nickel, you know, that has patina on it, that, uh, that was somehow deposited there, which are the archaeologists that we've had involved, who is a credentialed archaeologist. His name is Chris Roberts, uh, reminded us that it's not uncommon at, at surveys or archaeological dig sites that those professionals, upon concluding that work or in the midst of it, they'll, they'll drop a, a coin,

• 1:42:47Speaker 01

  you know, with the current date in there, just to, to kind of mark their territory, if you will. So we have the territory seemingly marked. And then we pull up the aerial survey record of the ranch to try to see what was happening. Was there something going on? Was there someone disturbing the earth at that time? Is there any evidence? And you probably, do you remember what Dr. Taylor and Erik Bard found?

• 1:43:14Speaker 03

  So here's all three of them beside each other. And, uh, you can see that there's a significant spot that it thinks is, has been dithered or smoothed with some sort of filter in the 1969 image that's not in the other images.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  The, the photos were doctored, but specifically in this kind of teardrop shape, which is where the material seems to be from the ground penetrating radar.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  So, well, and, and the aerial record is largely void. It's been deleted from strangely 19, 1964 to 1969. So the mystery deepens. I will say every time we get answers, we get more questions.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Well, am I wrong that the subplot to all of this is that there is a UFO under the mesa at Skinwalker Ranch?

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  We'll see.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  I think definitionally, you know, UFO involves flying, but it's kind of a UFO. You got material of a different density spotted by ground penetrating radar. You have, you have europium tellurium metals found. Europium, I believed was mentioned by David Grush as well in, you know, his own investigations.

• 1:44:34Speaker 13

  I, I talked to people who really did analyze the stuff from the real deal stuff and it's super weird. It's like heavy element, um, you know, europium, Californium stuff. It's like in these atomic arrangements that make like no sense. And this is through X-ray diffraction.

• 1:44:51Speaker 02

  So you have that data point. And then you have the fact that's like as above, so below. You have like the, the blob and the, you know, this like almost like field above the thing.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  Well, we've, we have what we call the bubble.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  The bubble, yes.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  We have this field over the, with the blob. I mean, we did capture from multiple cameras, a, an unexplained mass that, that was actually documented in tandem with the rockets being destroyed in some of those launches above the triangle. But you also have this field or what, what many of my people have been referring to as, as, um, the bubble that has been mapped using LiDAR and other platforms to, to actually, um, maybe explain that there's something going on.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  I mean, it, it actually encompasses a big part of the property. It is, you can call it a force field.

• 1:45:54Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:54Speaker 01

  You can call it, you know, a, a region of the property that has a sustained.

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  It's an invisible, roughly spherical energy anomaly formerly identified and named in season six, believed to extend both above and below ground and treated by the team as the likely unifying explanation for many previously separate phenomena. GPS failures, signal interference, instrument malfunction.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  You launch rockets at it and when it'll, it'll bounce off the boundary of this sort of thing.

• 1:46:23Speaker 01

  Repeatedly. And that's the thing with scientific investigation, you repeat the experiments to get repeated data. And all of those collective data points, they help us map this region and this field effect. It's really baffling and, and it does cause one to, to question whether, what is within, you know, whatever is within the mesa. Um, you know, it could be, it could be the cause, it could be involved with it.

• 1:46:52Speaker 02

  It's like you have a force field around this UFO object or something. That's so.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  Well, it seems to be a defense mechanism potentially because we've seen equipment destroyed. We've seen equipment malfunction. And when we're probing the bubble in this region, we see UAP. We see unidentified aerial phenomena appear, almost as if on call, almost like we're being monitored or warned. And then you have the, the covert military surveillance. I mean, when you have Black Hawk helicopters, unmarked Black Hawk helicopters showing up in the middle of the night, the middle of an experiment, during a time when you have a, a NOTAM, you have a, a notice to airman

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  that people shouldn't be flying within the airspace that were conducting experimental activity. And we have, we have unknown craft that descend upon the property that are not transponding, that appear to be menacing. And not even the attorney general, the governor can get answers. That just compounds the mystery in my mind.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  What do you think these unmarked helicopters are doing? And who are they acting on behalf of?

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think it's just, it's somehow being tasked, I believe, by some faction of the military industrial complex, some entity or entities that are involved with these topics. Um, and I think that there's a, there's a greater concern that has emerged. Even within months of us pulling this material out of our drill site on the mesa, all of a sudden an oil and gas company appears, ramrods permits through, even with, with, even with us filing notice, filing notice that we are not in agreement with it, that it, it compromises our investigation.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  The county goes, goes ahead in spite of our notice and our filing and grants them a permit right above our drill site, right on the border of my property. And they, they descend on the property with millions of dollars worth of equipment and personnel. And they, it is just the most reckless, aggressive effort.

• 1:49:24Speaker 02

  Do you think there's some

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  I don't think it's coincidence.

• 1:49:26Speaker 02

  You think there's some cut out shell company or extension of some

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Or they're being used as a front.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  For some diabolical effort to extract the same material that we are probing for or to compromise the nature of our investigation. And that's what pisses me off. I'll tell you what pisses me off the most over the course of the last year is after a decade of pouring the resources into this effort and having some of the leading scientists and engineers on the planet involved with documenting the reality, all of a sudden, right when we're actually extract extracting hard evidence of engineered material that is out of place, out of time, all of a sudden,

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  here comes some other third party enterprise right on top of us

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  that proceeds to aggressively drill.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  Um, and I, I, we have a legal action currently. I don't know that will prevail. I mean, we'll, I, I just, not only has it disrupted, you know, aspects of the investigation and our quiet enjoyment, but I think it is highly suspicious. It's not coincidental. The, the, the adjacent property owner that leased this property to the north owns over a thousand acres. Why would they situate this operation on roughly the postage stamp, the 10 acres that is literally closest, right on my border and right there, closest proximity to our drill site.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  So there's, there's a lot of things that are going to come out in the weeks and months to come. I hope that will help us get some answers, but I, I'll tell you, the plot thickens. And it's real. This is not bullshit. We're not making this up. We're not sensationalizing anything. You just have to sit back and watch. And there are too many disturbing things that are happening around our investigation.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  I still can't get over the fact that there's this force field around this object underground. And then, so

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  That's like kind of blocking interference from, you know, rockets to signals.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  To drones.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  To drones.

• 1:51:49Speaker 01

  We've even had fixed wing aircraft that actually document that there's something that their, their instruments, their instruments go haywire, even the helicopter. I mean, we've, we've tasked the helicopter with performing some of these, these, I think, pretty advanced surveys and right there at the edge of the, the bubble, at the edge of this region, there is this field. There is this

• 1:52:16Speaker 02

  And so that, there's a defense in the air and then there's a defense on the ground where if you dig, things seem to happen as well. So it's like this object at me, I don't know, like it's, this is like, this is crazy. Reality is crazier than fiction.

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's right out of some Stephen King novel.

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  It's out of a Stephen King novel. And you know how this novel ends is like some pure of heart kid or something unlocks it. Like it's like, you have all these like military guys and like, you know, and like, and then, and then somebody, somebody who's just hapless and like, you know, walks in and like unlocks the treasure or something.

• 1:52:53Speaker 01

  Who knows? It's like the end of ET when they discover ET, they finally find ET and all of the, the shadowy operatives come in and, and descend on the property and, and you know, you hope that there's always going to be some positive outcome. I'm, right now I'm, I'm more determined. I'm more inspired by the reality and the data that we have, that we have collected, that we've presented transparently to the public. And we've allowed the public a peek behind the curtain.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  Like no other effort.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  But it's, it's interesting to me, the, the show is so good and it's so transparent. And then it's interesting to me that, you know, I've had Bob Lazar in here earlier and I was, I think this didn't make it into the cut because we, we talked for a long time. And it was, you know, less relevant to his story, but we were, we talked about the show and we were talking about you.

• 1:53:50Speaker 14

  Because I'm sure, and that didn't he get, he bought Skinwalker Ranch right around that time too, right?

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Bought Skinwalker Ranch around that time. Yeah.

• 1:53:58Speaker 14

  Yeah. I think he was convinced that they're all kind of connected.

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  And I was like, the subplot, the whole show is amazing. And the subplot to it is that there is a UFO under the mesa. And I was like, and I was like, why don't people make that explicit connection? And you guys don't necessarily do that. You lead people maybe to that.

• 1:54:18Speaker 01

  We're, we're led by the, we're led by the data, not an inherited narrative.

• 1:54:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's cool. That's good.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Something that Erik Bard has been

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  You could be more sensationalist than you are.

• 1:54:30Speaker 01

  Oh, 10 times more.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  If, if this wasn't grounded in absolute truth, which is my deal with the History Channel, which they have honored. I mean, I was only willing to do this series, to come out of the shadows and go public

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  if it was all grounded in facts and truth. Nothing can be manipulated, contrived. Nothing can be fabricated relative to the docu-series or not only my reputation, but the reputation of all of the incredible people that are involved would be compromised. And it's not worth it. No amount of money, no amount of whatever notoriety or fame is ever worth compromising your reputation or your integrity.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  No. And it's like when you have people going to the hospital and get, you know, serious health adverse events. It's like, you're not faking any of this stuff. That's

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  No, that's not, that's not for television.

• 1:55:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  When Dragon is immediately evacuating

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  Our caretaker from the site in the middle of an experiment because of a cardiac episode. And that whole sequence of events plays out on camera because that's my deal. That's, we're, we're transparently allowing our investigation to be documented for months of the year and to be, to, to be televised.

• 1:56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  And some of it's awkward. I mean, some of it isn't perfect. Some of our experiments are inconclusive. This is a human effort, but to see very real disturbing things play out on camera.

• 1:56:20Speaker 01

  It's, it's, uh, it's sobering.

• 1:56:23Speaker 02

  And when you mentioned this oil and gas, you know, maybe fronts, clearly they have ulterior motives. I think of this, um, former director of NSA research, Eric Hazelton, who I had on my show. He wrote a, a quote unquote fiction book. I think it was called Out of Time. And my belief, this is me saying this, I think he hid some truths in it.

• 1:56:45Speaker 15

  You know, that text gritty texture of reality is how weird it is. There's a lot of the intelligence world in this because you know, they say, write about what you know. And I'm a neuroscientist and I was a spy. And so it's really an espionage novel too.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  And it's all about this, you know, forbidden archaeological artifact.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  That is very anachronistic in that it doesn't make sense for, you know, for its time that it was found. And it's sort of advanced, but it's ancient. And you have essentially these like modern mafia gang wars in order, it is the wild, wild west as far as, you know, finding the thing, selling it on the black market. And that's what this feels like. It's like you're reporting on this stuff transparently and in the kind of open source world. And then I'm sure, I mean, you gotta think that like CIA and stuff is tracking what you're finding.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Sure. I mean, someone, when you've got the National Science Foundation's $50 million Gulf Stream five jet being caught multiple times, conducting very sophisticated survey work at over 40,000 feet directly above the triangle.

• 1:57:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Come on. And you've got the governor that it happens to be occurring on the day that you have the former governor of the state of Utah.

• 1:58:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  There for a briefing to be involved in an experiment.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  At what point, you know, do we, do we, do we show some respect to the fact that there's something going on and that there is definitely a cast of characters involved with monitoring what is happening at the ranch?

• 1:58:25Speaker 02

  Should probably being tracked by the government and by random private interests.

• 1:58:32Speaker 02

  So you're like 360 surrounded.

• 1:58:34Speaker 01

  Or a special compartmentalized.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  Or a special compartmentalized interest, you know, and waved and bigoted special access programs, subject matter experts.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, beyond any accountability that have access to resources that we can only dream of.

• 1:58:50Speaker 02

  And did you, you first heard about the ranch through Hal Pudoff and Kit Green?

• 1:58:54Speaker 01

  I did. Yeah, they were my, they were my senior science advisors with a former endeavor that we had shut down, that I, we had terminated and.

• 1:59:04Speaker 02

  Well, we should talk about that because I think it shows your skeptical inclination going into Skinwalker Ranch was, was come about in an honest way. So.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. In 2010, Dr. Pudoff and Dr. Green were part of the Science Advisory Board for an effort called Motion Sciences, where I had basically raised the money, millions of dollars of our own money and, and, you know, a closely held group to test and validate certain claims involving gravitational physics and over unity energy.

• 1:59:38Speaker 02

  And what some might proverbially call anti-gravity.

• 1:59:41Speaker 01

  Correct. The, you know, the figure that was involved in that was an early internet pioneer that I had worked with and represented as a young commercial real estate broker. And there seemed to be great validity in a lot of the approaches, or at least the theory behind it. And so we, we ended up converting a portion of my private hangar facility at the Provo Airport into kind of a mini Stark Industries, kind of a mini advanced in engineering laboratory for testing and validating these claims and really developing the, the devices and the scientific platforms to test the theories out.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 2:00:24Speaker 01

  With empiricism. And we had a world-class science advisory board involved with that. Long story short, we ended up debunking it. We ended up proving that the, the core claims did not hold weight. We could not repeat any effects and the approach that we were, that we were taking to what, what was referred to as the rectification of co-moving angular momentum.

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 2:00:49Speaker 01

  Using force process gyroscopic mechanisms was not working out. We weren't getting the results and.

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  But Hal and Kit were aware of this and also interested in investigating.

• 2:01:03Speaker 01

  They were monitoring the effort and they were our trusted science advisors or two of our most trusted science advisors and had.

• 2:01:10Speaker 02

  Joe Fermit is the guy, is the tech guy.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  He was my partner at the time.

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  He has an interesting history.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was unfortunate. I ended up having to terminate him in that first year.

• 2:01:21Speaker 02

  He seemed, you know, I know things went south with him, but he seemed earnestly interested in, you know, making progress on the phenomenon. And I believe he started this group called Inter NASA, which was based on the Academy of Arts and Sciences.

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  And he tried to reinvent himself a number of times. And he's, he's, it's an unfortunate chapter and he's, he's a tragic figure.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Speaker 01

  Was very smart in his day.

• 2:01:52Speaker 02

  Maybe there'll be a redemption arc, who knows?

• 2:01:54Speaker 01

  I.

• 2:01:55Speaker 02

  Not holding your breath.

• 2:01:56Speaker 01

  Never. But no, I, I actually ended up shutting down the whole operation and was frankly so disappointed and, and convinced that all of the topics that were inspiring the, this research, that it was all bunk, that I felt like if people applied more critical thinking and the scientific method, they'd be able to prove that there's, there are no mysteries, that there's a natural prosaic explanation for all that we see that we think

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  may be unusual in this world. And I, I completely turned skeptic for good reason. And I'd done my homework. I thought, you know, all these people, including these scientists that, that actually claimed that there was validity to these topics. I thought they were nice people, but probably nothing more than the product of group think and an adult scientific snipe hunt. In fact, that's what I thought when the ranch was first brought to me. I thought, you know, Skinwalker Ranch just looks like a, a scientific snipe hunt mixed with a, with a group think where everyone basically psychs themselves out into thinking

• 2:03:19Speaker 01

  that there's something going on unusual that really isn't happening.

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  And Hal and Kit have such an interesting history as well. Hal is sort of, I would say, if you had to pick like a godfather of heterodox UFO science, it would be Hal.

• 2:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's incredible. He's an incredibly bright figure in physics circles.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  Both Dr. Pudoff and Dr. Green, I hold in high regard and, and those that they surround themselves with. I mean, Dr. Gary Nolan, I have great respect for. I mean, incredible people who've put their personal lives and professional reputations on the line. And I, I'm thankful that they trusted me, that they reached out to me with the opportunity to meet with Mr. Bigelow. They knew I had grown skeptical, that I was not a believer, that I was, was in a different phase of my life, but they knew I could be trusted. And

• 2:04:29Speaker 01

  they knew that, I think they, they knew I would, would have integrity. They also knew that I was a collector of artifacts, of cultural artifacts. I don't think they ever really believed that I was going to bring resources. Thank you. You rock. I don't think.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  That man do.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  Bless you.

• 2:04:50Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:04:51Speaker 01

  Good man. I, I don't think that those science advisors or even Bigelow believed that I was going to bring.

• 2:05:00Speaker 02

  The amount of rigor.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  The resources.

• 2:05:02Speaker 02

  And robustness.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  And expertise to this problem because I, I expressed my skepticism right out of the gates. And, and I, I was holding it all in secret. I, I had no intention of ever going public with this. In fact, I had great motivation to have everyone under confidentiality agreements. I did not want my ownership of this property and any potential association with these topics to compromise my day job, my professional.

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  I think you're doing the right thing. I also think you're doing the right thing from the vantage point of you have all these interests, some not so savory likely, who are really curious about what you're doing. And if you were doing all of this, not in public, that could kind of be bad. And I think the, the fact that it's fully transparent and that you have these, you know, 24 seven Penn Opticon live feeds going is kind of immunity for you in some ways.

• 2:06:02Speaker 01

  Well, we have nothing to hide. And if, if anyone tries to intercede to disrupt the investigation, it's going to be caught on camera. Like this, this mysterious oil and drilling effort, the descents on the, I'm like, are you kidding?

• 2:06:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:19Speaker 01

  You're going to really completely ignore all of my, you know, public filings against this effort and not respond intelligently to them. And you're going to just ramrod through the permits. There's going to have to be some accountability. This is wrong. It's completely wrong. Especially given the decades of diligence and work that has been focused on this effort in the public eye.

• 2:06:49Speaker 02

  And if there is an intelligence within this object, it's definitely not going to take a liking to whatever their ramrod-ing activity.

• 2:06:58Speaker 01

  You would think, but they've, they've been able to get away with it. Who knows what is really at play and how the intelligence that we're dealing with is operating and how they perceive it, or it perceives it. Again, we're just scratching the surface, I think, of understanding the nature of what is happening. I think we have more now than ever before. I mean, the way that we've advanced the investigation and the point that we're at right now is so far beyond what I think anyone else has been able to accomplish. I think now we just have to remain diligent and brace ourselves.

• 2:07:39Speaker 02

  You mentioned Kit Green earlier. He's a fascinating character. For me, he's like, I would guess, somebody who knows as much about the phenomenon as anyone who's kind of public facing. He ran the CIA's quote unquote weird desk for a long period of time. Do you think he knows a lot about the phenomenon more than, you know, maybe, maybe a little more than meets the eye? And as kind of an extension of that question, has anybody showed up to the ranch where they feel one step ahead of you? And you're, you kind of just, you feel a little resonance, you see it in the eyes and you're like, this person knows a whole lot and we're kind of piecing it together, but they might have a little bit more of a top of the pyramid view already.

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  Yes. I have great respect for Dr. Green. He's a good man. A good man. I have great respect for Dr. Pudoff and all those that have joined our effort over the years.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Dr. Taylor has been an incredible resource and confidant, I mean, and an unlikely advocate and team member. I mean, when Dr. Taylor flew out to the ranch with me for the first time, he was an absolute skeptic. I don't know if people remember that, but he didn't think that there was any validity to these claims. He was brought in by the History Channel.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  You know, at their request to challenge all of the claims. And I was, I was open to it. I felt like he's, he's a credentialed physicist. I'd seen his, you know, some of his work publicly. And I, he was the one exception I made. I was not interested in having any Hollywood casting call or bringing anyone else in other than my core team that, you know, I have decades of friendship, of trust built with. I didn't want that, that circle of trust, that integrity compromised. But I felt bringing in a, an outside party, a credentialed physicist to help challenge and help drive the discussion and the investigation was valid, was a, was

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  a valid ask. And wow, to see Dr. Taylor's transformation. All you have to do is go back to season one and watch it all the way up to season seven, present day. And it's a mind blowing progression. In fact, if you go back, we look like just kids. We look like, and we were, we have learned so much in just seven years.

• 2:10:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  I would have never, if we went back in a time machine and you were to say, and you were to list, you know, the top 20 things that we've discovered, that we've documented on the ranch, I would, I'd be sitting here with my jaw on the floor because I, I didn't expect, as much as I knew the phenomena was real and I was an experiencer, you can't, you can't schedule this, you can't conjure it up, you can't, you're, we're not in control.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  And you, you can't predict what will happen or what won't happen.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  One of the most fascinating things that you guys often see, or sometimes see, are orbs accompanied by these unmarked black helicopters. And it's like, almost like there's some coordination going on between humans and the beings or the non-human intelligence, like they're kind of, you know, moving in conjunction with each other.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  It's fascinating. I mean,

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  I, I know we're being monitored. Here's, here's the reality, Jesse. We're being monitored.

• 2:11:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  We, we are, are, our nuclear installations are being monitored, are being meddled with by craft, by objects of unknown origin. We've had numerous people go on record, credible people within those circles that have gone on record. We've seen it on Skinwalker Ranch, craft, objects of unknown origin that are violating the airspace indiscriminately, that have no explanation, there's no conventional explanation. And attending these, these events, you see electromagnetic anomalies, you see,

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:09Speaker 01

  you see other strange things emerge.

• 2:12:12Speaker 02

  Ross Colthart, who I know you have a great interview with, he does all sorts of investigating of this, you know, this secret mountain at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona.

• 2:12:23Speaker 01

  I've been there.

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  Oh, you've been there. There you go. So you probably know more than me, but you, you see,

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  We did an investigation, my Beyond Skinwalker Ranch series. So we, we, we for three seasons had Beyond Skinwalker that took our investigation to other locations across the country. We added two investigators that were coordinating with both Dr. Taylor and Erik Bard and Bradshaw Ranch. Sedona was a key part of the investigative effort. And, and at least one of those episodes was really exclusively focused on that effort. I went there myself and there were some strange things that came up on the cameras.

• 2:13:08Speaker 02

  It seems like UFOs, similar to the Mesa, Skinwalker Ranch, you have transmedium UFOs going in and out of the mountain. It's restricted space, presumably for this university, but you never see anybody from the university there. Instead, you see nondescript, you know, armed gunmen randomly walking around. You can't walk in.

• 2:13:29Speaker 01

  Camera surveillance.

• 2:13:31Speaker 02

  Camera surveillance. And it's almost like,

• 2:13:33Speaker 01

  Middle of nowhere.

• 2:13:35Speaker 02

  That's right. It's almost like the implication of all of this is, because you have a few of these sorts of places all around the world. You have Mount Zale, you know, you have Mount, you know, that's in Australia. You have Mount Hayes in Alaska. You have Mount Perdido in Spain, Mount Yan Gani, Mount Shasta in California. And it feels like you almost have like, alien might be the wrong term, but alien bases on earth.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  We'll see. We will see.

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  And then, but then, but then what's strange,

• 2:14:08Speaker 01

  This is the age of disclosure. I mean, there are too many of us now funding research efforts. We are going to bring this forward.

• 2:14:14Speaker 02

  The fact that you have helicopters escorting some of these UFOs and UAP into the mountains, that blows my mind because then it's like not just,

• 2:14:23Speaker 01

  No, it's a coordinated effort.

• 2:14:25Speaker 02

  Yes, between humans and the beings.

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and it speaks to the, the reality of these special access programs. There is, there is a part of the military industrial complex that has been involved with these topics for a long time. And I think that we've seen that manifest at Skinwalker Ranch with respect to some of the monitoring efforts that we have documented.

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  So it's almost like the legacy UFO program are the beings and humans working in coordination, possibly.

• 2:14:58Speaker 01

  Potentially. It's strange, but it, I mean, it's undeniable. There, there are too many, too many data points to just ignore or dismiss. Am I going to make a definitive claim? No, but I, are we going to chase down that, that rabbit hole? Absolutely.

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Speaking about Beyond Skinwalker, tell me about Mount Wilson.

• 2:15:22Speaker 01

  Interesting things down there. I mean, it was also owned by Mr. Bigelow in tandem with his early years of owning Skinwalker Ranch.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Bought at the same time.

• 2:15:30Speaker 01

  Yep, they acquired him.

• 2:15:31Speaker 02

  1996.

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  About the same time. And we uncovered evidence that there, there was activity predated, there was a cover up. I mean, we're talking about fried computers, computer servers that were completely fried and buried deep within, under the property. There was a rail system of some sort that we've unearthed down there. Clear evidence that there was a program, that there was, that there, there was a dedicated program and research being conducted.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  And a lot covered up physically and figuratively.

• 2:16:15Speaker 01

  We'd love to return. I, I've had my hands full, frankly, with my own property. I don't own that property. But it's, it's more a question of bandwidth. I'd love to, but it's, you know, I'm right now, you know, continuing to focus the majority of my efforts on conventional business. I'm leading colleagues in the Intermountain region and we, we have a lot of responsibility to our clients right now. And I take that seriously, just as seriously as I take this investigation, which has an entirely different trajectory and, and cast of characters, partners involved.

• 2:16:56Speaker 02

  You've got a lot on your plate. Speaking of that cast of characters, you mentioned Dr. Travis Taylor. Do you think he has any experience with UFOs in his past?

• 2:17:11Speaker 01

  I don't know that I, it'd be fun to have Dr. Taylor here to answer that question. I will say before Skinwalker Ranch,

• 2:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  before he was brought out to the ranch,

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  to be part of this investigation, I don't think he had any

• 2:17:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  experience. I, in fact, he was,

• 2:17:27Speaker 02

  He was a skeptic.

• 2:17:28Speaker 01

  He was a vocal skeptic.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  And then at one point, he, he briefs the UAPT, he briefs the Pentagon on stuff he finds. And there's this awkward moment where you kind of call him out.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, after, after that first year or so of investigative work at Skinwalker Ranch and Dr. Taylor, Becoming an experiencer himself.

• 2:17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:49Speaker 01

  Unbeknownst to us, he gets called into meetings in Washington DC and is called in to be the chief scientist of the UAP Task Force. He, he was.

• 2:18:02Speaker 02

  Oh, you didn't even know about that's right. It comes up in the show.

• 2:18:05Speaker 01

  We had no idea. We had some interesting surprises over the last weeks with Dr. Taylor, the former chief scientist for the Pentagon's UAP Task Force. Uh, it would be great to hear you shed some light on how that has uh impacted our investigation and, and how that may influence things. And I, I've got to give Dr. Taylor credit as much as it's irritating that we, that we weren't informed of this and that he was, he was wearing that hat and fulfilling that role at the same time that he was coming back seasonally to work on our effort. The truth is Dr. Taylor had entered into certain national security oaths. He was under confidentiality.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  It was a highly sensitive role and position and to his credit, he didn't breach that, not even once. We had no idea. Until he had authorization and it was going to come out.

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  At some point anyways. When he disclosed his role, you probably remember, I mean, it's, there were people, Dragon was pissed.

• 2:19:20Speaker 01

  You know, my head of security was angry because.

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  Reasonably.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  It felt like betrayal. So there were members of my team who felt initially like they'd been betrayed. Like why did, what, how could you be wearing these hats, working on this effort? That is the direct result of your research here at Skinwalker Ranch. The reason why he was called in. And called to that position in large part was, was really because of the work at, at Skinwalker. I mean, that was the catalyst to be behind it all. Um, but I actually, I, I have great respect for Dr. Taylor and I understand the, the really difficult position that he was placed in. I, I respect the way he handled it.

• 2:20:08Speaker 01

  Um, when, when it was time and appropriate, he put it on the table. He disclosed it. Um, he's been very honest about it. Um, I love Dr. Taylor. He's been a great member of the effort and the team, uh, consulting physicist that is, uh, he's, he's one of the brightest thinkers on the planet when it comes to these topics these days. But I, I think he came into it just like I did as a skeptic. Uh, and he came out of it here the last years as a, as an experiencer and as someone who, he is hell bent on getting to the truth. You can see it. I mean, anyone who's watching this effort, this televised effort can see, this isn't an act. He's not hamming it up

• 2:20:53Speaker 01

  as an actor. He's, he's being captured real time in some of his most frustrated moments.

• 2:21:03Speaker 01

  Experiencing, experiencing phenomena that defies any natural explanation. And he has been injured because of it. He's sustained injuries. He had to go to the doctor. He had to go to the hospital because of injuries and he's had things happen that have followed him. Talk to him about the Hiker effect.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  I'd love to. Yeah.

• 2:21:26Speaker 01

  So he's a good man. I, I'm very fortunate to have all of these people, uh, that, um, this, that support me, that support this effort. It's a, it is a team effort. And even going back to those science advisors, Dr. Pudoff, Dr. Green, Dr. Segala, who joined us for a period of time. I mean, Dr. Segala was there years before.

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  Who is Dr. Segala?

• 2:21:50Speaker 01

  Jim Segala. He's in season one of the docu-series, but he was there, uh, before there was any History Channel effort. I was brought in as a confidant, as a member of, uh, Dr. Pudoff's team. And, uh, and that's, that's one thing that people forget is

• 2:22:08Speaker 01

  I was funding this investigation and keep, keeping it completely secret and confidential for four years before being persuaded by the History Channel to allow the production team to come in and to make this public, to make it part of a, a true reality docu-series effort. And I have to say, to have those resources, to have some of the finest documentary filmmakers in the world, they're stationed physically at the ranch for months of the year. It's, it's a blessing and it's nice to not have to write all the checks. It's nice to have at least a.

• 2:22:52Speaker 02

  A little compensation.

• 2:22:53Speaker 01

  Portion of the effort. Well, I'm, every bit of it goes back into it. I don't take, I haven't, I have yet to buy myself a hamburger with the, uh, with the proceeds of the effort.

• 2:23:03Speaker 02

  I imagine you're in the. You're in the red.

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  I don't, well, I donate it. So what I do is I, I assign, I donate the proceeds that would be due to me to either philanthropic efforts.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:23:16Speaker 01

  Um, supporting everything from scholarships.

• 2:23:21Speaker 01

  Uh, my wife is very passionate about financial aid for single mothers. We're very involved with Utah Valley University. Uh, we're involved with, uh, you know, cancer research and supporting uh, efforts associated with, um, that community that Dr. Lee, my dear friend is involved in. And, uh, we, we love supporting that effort and I love pouring every penny back into the infrastructure and the experimentation, the, the effort there. I have yet to open a bank account for the ranch.

• 2:23:58Speaker 02

  Wow. That's amazing. Well, okay.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  So I haven't taken anyone who claims, and they're ignorant if they claim it, anyone who, who calls me a grifter. I, I didn't even know the term grift or grifter, uh, ignorantly before this effort. But all of a sudden, when I went public and I see all this social media, all these people come out of the woodwork. Oh, you're a grifter. And all of this criticism that they, oh, you're a P T Barnum and you're sensationalizing this. And this is all just to become, you know, you, you just want the attention and this is all just trying to monetize these topics and take advantage of people. I'm like, what? Anyone who does their due diligence on me understands that, that it couldn't be further from the truth.

• 2:24:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:24:44Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I, I'm.

• 2:24:47Speaker 02

  And your, your opportunity cost is so high. I mean, like that you're, what you could be making in that amount of time on real estate is, it's just like, you know, how much more, you know, would you be making?

• 2:24:59Speaker 01

  It's a liability.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  It's a liability, but guess what? It's worth it.

• 2:25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:04Speaker 01

  And that these frontier efforts, I wish more people were involved in it. That's the one thing that shocks me. Maybe you can help me, Jesse. Understand where are all of the other high net worth accomplished business leaders that have, that have resources and are curious a bit, these topics? Where the hell is everyone? Cause I feel like I'm still 10 years later on an island to a degree and these, these things are real and we have the opportunity

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  to actually bring forth, I think, some of the greatest discoveries in the history of the world. And yet our effort is just this ragtag privately funded effort.

• 2:25:50Speaker 02

  One of my favorite essays is this guy, Abraham Flexner. Um, he wrote an essay called the usefulness of useless things. And it became the charter for the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. And Flexner did some other stuff I, I wasn't so happy about with the medical system, but in this context, it was all super evergreen research that was long time horizon that was seen as sort of useless, but would eventually become useful. And it was all about, you know, actually the root of the word school is the Greek skole, which means leisure. That's the double meaning.

• 2:26:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:26:24Speaker 02

  And so just sitting and contemplating the world and thinking about, you know, reality itself begets so much progress. If you think about quantum mechanics, which is responsible for a third of our economy, that was a bunch of dudes in Copenhagen philosophically inquiring into, you know, microscopic reality, but in a really philosophical kind of peripatetic, almost in the vein of Plato, sort of, sort of way.

• 2:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:50Speaker 02

  And that is really missing. And so that's why I started with that preamble and my introduction of you. Cause I, I think what you do is so needed and it's such an externality. You know, you have capitalists, you know, you know, getting really rich and then all they want to do is get richer. And, and you can increase the amount of goods with new modalities, new ways of thinking, or you can make your money in extractive ways. And I think, I think what you're doing is just so positive sum and, and people really need to be, you know, thinking more about that.

• 2:27:25Speaker 01

  I'm just shocked. I mean, you're interviewing personalities, people all the time. But how many of those, where are all the people that are funding, like to great expense that are funding frontier science efforts to get to the bottom of this in the private sector at least? Why? Why is that? Do you know the answer? I don't, I, after a decade, other than, I don't know whether they're just afraid because there's no return on investment. And at the end of the day, people care most about what their return on investment may be with something. And this is, this is not one of those efforts. Is it too much liability professionally? Have

• 2:28:07Speaker 01

  these topics understandably become so taboo in decades, in the last 70 years, that successful people in the private sector are not willing?

• 2:28:20Speaker 01

  To touch them.

• 2:28:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:22Speaker 01

  To get involved to, to both, both with their reputations and their means. Because it may compromise. I, I don't know. I.

• 2:28:33Speaker 02

  I don't know either.

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  I should know, but I, I, I'm baffled by it.

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  You, you, you've met probably more of these guys than me, but my, my basic take when I, when I meet a lot of them is like, curiosity and you know, open mindedness doesn't necessarily scale with net worth. And so you have a lot of these guys and it's, you know, they, they made their money.

• 2:28:56Speaker 01

  You'd think that highly successful, inquisitive people that are entrepreneurial would.

• 2:29:02Speaker 02

  You've fulfilled a certain level of Maslow's hierarchy and then it's like, okay, what's going on?

• 2:29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. What's next? You can only buy so many Ferraris or.

• 2:29:09Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 2:29:09Speaker 01

  You have so many yachts or estates. Well, let's move the needle. Let's figure out the nature of our world. Let's figure out.

• 2:29:17Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:29:17Speaker 01

  What, what is really happening?

• 2:29:20Speaker 02

  I think they're, they're so used to, um, does this involve a clear local trade expression? You know, and you know, they have these filters and heuristics for decision making that serve them so well in getting to a certain point. And then when it comes to, you know, getting, getting past that point and really, you know, looking into this sort of stuff, which I think is so fundamental to everything and so important. I think, I think it's, it's, it's tough to deprogram yourself and, um, to take a step back and to think in a more abstract way. And I don't know, it's tough. And then, and then there's the taboo and then there's the fact that you, you're getting more risk averse as you become more successful.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  And you're an exception to this, which is amazing. We, we need more of that. We need more high net worth risk takers. But you know, given all of the real scientific suppression that occurs in areas like that, I mean, the fact that you even invested initially in anti-gravity or gravity manipulation in 2010, that's rare. Like people are scared of things like that.

• 2:30:22Speaker 01

  It was bold and we lost millions. I lost so much time. It was emotionally draining, uh, debilitating.

• 2:30:34Speaker 01

  I, there was betrayal involved. There was disappointment on a level that I hadn't experienced before in business or life.

• 2:30:46Speaker 01

  I'm glad you bring that up because it underscores the fact that these topics are not for the faint of heart.

• 2:30:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:30:53Speaker 01

  They're fun to speculate on. They're fun to discuss. It's fun to go to the movies and see disclosure day.

• 2:31:02Speaker 01

  Great. I love the movie. I thought Steven Spielberg did a fantastic job with it. It's quite another.

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  To, to delve into it, to actually devote time and resource to these topics on another level professionally, monetarily. And it's funny with Spielberg, I, I, you look at him as a, as a filmmaker, what an incredible talent. And what a voice for asking the big questions. Did you see what he, uh, when he was asked recently in the interview, you know, what, what inspired you, what motivated you to come forward? And do disclosure day and produce this effort? And he says, yeah, the, well, it's the, the congressional hearings and the, you know, some of the government

• 2:31:49Speaker 01

  acknowledgement of the reality. And I just finished binge watching 72 episodes of The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. Did you see that?

• 2:31:57Speaker 02

  That's incredible. No, I didn't see. That's amazing.

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  I'll send you the link. I'll show you the link to have the great Steven Spielberg.

• 2:32:06Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 2:32:07Speaker 01

  Watching our work and being inspired by our work in a way that helps, helps motivate, um, broader discussion regarding these topics. Uh, that's like,

• 2:32:24Speaker 01

  that's a pinch me. I, I, I gotta, that's one of those moments where I, I find great reward.

• 2:32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:33Speaker 01

  And it's not financial. It's, it's, it's validation and it's also inspirational.

• 2:32:40Speaker 02

  It's incredible.

• 2:32:41Speaker 01

  Know that, that we're touching on topics and hopefully bringing forward

• 2:32:49Speaker 01

  discoveries. And, uh, and insight that people have been starving for, for thousands of years. Um, and I think we're just getting started, Jesse.

• 2:33:03Speaker 02

  Given how much money, time, resources, personal reputation you've spent on all of this stuff. Does any part of you look at some of these initiatives for congressional oversight, Allah, the Schumer amendment? Part of which involves possible eminent domain, you know, taking of private materials. And are you like, hey, look, I'm doing this transparently and for the public. I'm not Raytheon that collected this, you know, by like.

• 2:33:35Speaker 01

  When did we start trusting the government?

• 2:33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:38Speaker 01

  To take over our stuff. Are you guys stupid?

• 2:33:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:33:41Speaker 01

  Did you just start taking stupid pills? I, I'm all for protecting whistleblowers and I am all, I am the biggest proponent. In fact, I show me someone else who has put more of their professional career and their personal financial resources on the line relative to these topics. Bring it on. Show me someone. But giving the government carte blanche

• 2:34:06Speaker 01

  rights to literally come in and take my property and, and for the public to think that they know best, that they're going to be able, that they're going to disclose to the public for the public's interests and write the reality of these things. It's, it's crazy.

• 2:34:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:22Speaker 01

  And that's the problem is, as I, I fully support these bills. I fully support these efforts more than anyone. But I feel like we still have to protect and preserve private property rights. And we have to preserve the right for entrepreneurs to be able to, to conduct this effort without being thwarted, without being shut down.

• 2:34:47Speaker 02

  Will you commit publicly to some form of disclosure with whatever you find underneath?

• 2:34:54Speaker 01

  Hell yeah. I've demonstrated it for seven, going on eight years.

• 2:34:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. It'd be, it'd be kind of weird if like you went silent one day.

• 2:35:02Speaker 01

  Jesse, I demonstrated 24/7. You can, you can get on our insider site and you can pull up the, the live feed of the cameras. I don't know. There's nothing more I can do.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  To demonstrate my commitment to transparency and that we're all in this together. What I'd like to see is more support. Now, I'm not, I'm not asking for any financial support. But more support and, and frankly cooperative efforts to help bring forward the truth. I celebrate the whistleblowers. I celebrate those who have the courage to come forward. What I'm hoping they'll be able to do is come forward with data and evidence. The problem is people coming forward with their experiences or knowledge, especially secondhand knowledge, secondhand accounts.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  It's not helpful.

• 2:35:56Speaker 02

  Do you believe we have saucers and hangers in the U.S.?

• 2:36:01Speaker 01

  Uh, it wouldn't surprise me. I've seen them myself in the air. I mean,

• 2:36:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:07Speaker 01

  I know they, I know they exist. Is the government in possession of these things?

• 2:36:17Speaker 01

  Uh, wouldn't surprise me. But on the other hand, whatever we're observing is so far advanced.

• 2:36:26Speaker 01

  I think to some degree it's arrogant to think that we would have the ability to bring it down.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:31Speaker 01

  Uh, but let's say, I, I think, I, I,

• 2:36:36Speaker 01

  it's a good question. I, I, I absolutely,

• 2:36:45Speaker 01

  am open minded to the fact that there, there, there are some factions. And I don't know, uh, there, it may be privately held channels now that, that hold this material.

• 2:36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's a, there are rumors that there's actually like a Mormon connection with the UFO legacy program. And that BYU could be a feeder. You know, the, they say the CIA is Mormons, Marines and MBAs. And, um, so there might, you know, and there's dugway proving grounds, obviously on the other side of Utah.

• 2:37:19Speaker 01

  Utah test and training range. I mean, and that's why I was a skeptic at the very beginning is I felt like there, there's going to be a natural explanation for all of this. It's all conventional. We have the Utah test and training range, which is west of Hill Air Force Base. It's the largest inland test and training range in the United States. You have the base. You have, you know, dugway. And we, we have great resource. I mean, we have within one hour, we have some really world-class institutions. UVU, who has a degreed cybersecurity program. BYU, the University of Utah, Utah State with Space Dynamics Lab that has worked on the Mars, you know, rover program and countless others.

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  I thought there, there's enough evidence, there's enough going on here that there's, there's nothing truly unusual.

• 2:38:11Speaker 02

  Well, you know, in the, in the cafeteria at dugway proving grounds, there's a little gray alien being.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  I didn't know that.

• 2:38:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:38:20Speaker 01

  But I, now, nothing surprises me.

• 2:38:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:23Speaker 01

  The phenomena is real. Without question. And we have data demonstrating the reality of it. Now, understanding the, the origin of the agenda is, is our goal.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  Speaking of it being real, there are still people who've, uh, served officially in Pentagon positions studying this stuff. Namely, the former head of the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, Sean Kirkpatrick, who denies the reality of any of this stuff. He sort of professionally gaslights the public on it. He was this, probably the sole source for this sloppily written Wall Street Journal article that, uh, poorly explained away a bunch of UFO incidents around Malmstrom Nuclear Base in 1967, calling it the product of a, a non-nuclear EMP, which hadn't even been invented at the time. There were all sorts of errors in this piece.

• 2:39:17Speaker 02

  He also said that before being head of Arrow, he was not privy to any information or briefings on this subject. And you had a very interesting response for him.

• 2:39:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. He claimed that before 2022, he had no interest in these topics.

• 2:39:35Speaker 01

  That he'd never attended a briefing on Skinwalker Ranch. That he'd never met me.

• 2:39:44Speaker 01

  When, interestingly, he was right across from me seated just like you are across from me for two and a half hours in a confidential briefing.

• 2:39:57Speaker 01

  In 2018, in April 2018, specifically and exclusively focused on reviewing and briefing

• 2:40:10Speaker 01

  people in the government relative to the reality of the ongoing investigation and findings at Skinwalker Ranch. I don't know how someone in his position sits across from me for two and a half hours watching a a very sophisticated keynote presentation with video and other assets.

• 2:40:35Speaker 01

  And then years later denies ever meeting me denies ever having any interest in these topics ever attending a briefing.

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  And I wasn't even going to give voice to this. I wasn't even going to to respond to the criticism until I was being made out to be the liar by Stephen Greenstreet at the New York Post. He was essentially calling my my account of doing this briefing. This confidential briefing years before any History Channel docu-series. And it's unfortunate, but I had to, I came with the receipts.

• 2:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you posted a photo.

• 2:41:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I've posted on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook.

• 2:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:34Speaker 01

  I did a drop and showed clearly that Dr. Kirkpatrick was right across from me that he was in attendance at this briefing. And what it what it demonstrates is that there's unfortunately a disinformation campaign and a very active effort to discredit individuals like me and these very topics. Why? I don't know. I don't know where it's coming from. I don't have any bone to pick. I certainly I warned Greenstreet with the New York Post. I warned him. I said, what, why are you doing this? Why are you, do you want to embarrass Dr. Kirkpatrick? Why are you continuing down this line of questioning?

• 2:42:14Speaker 01

  I don't know why, but I know it's real. I know we've, I know that he was involved.

• 2:42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, pure, pure, bold-faced lie.

• 2:42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know who his puppet masters are, I, you know, but I, I would not be surprised if they're somehow related to the the covert military surveillance of our effort at Skinwalker Ranch and beyond.

• 2:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:42:38Speaker 01

  But it's, it really does underscore the effort to discredit these topics. And I mean, that was, that was blue, you know, that was Blue Book 2.0.

• 2:42:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  Or Condon Report 2.0 essentially to discredit, to basically tell the entire public in Congress, oh, there's nothing to see here, move along, to somehow Jedi mind trick and everyone into thinking that we're crazy, that there's no validity to these topics. And it's, that's insanity. It is dishonest. It's dishonest. It's just, it's, in this day and age, I'm shocked.

• 2:43:18Speaker 02

  Was he open-minded back then?

• 2:43:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. It was a great exchange. Yeah, I, like I said, I have no bone to pick. There was no, there was nothing adversarial and nothing negative. In fact, I appreciated.

• 2:43:30Speaker 02

  So it's like he's playing a role now. It's like he's sort of serving orders.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. I don't, I, I, I don't know. I, I, I don't preserve, I don't presume to understand the motivation behind it. All I can do is give voice and evidence to the reality of what

• 2:43:54Speaker 01

  happened.

• 2:43:55Speaker 02

  Very strange. Well, also very strange. We mentioned the Shermans who owned the ranch before Bigelow.

• 2:44:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:44:04Speaker 02

  This werewolf showing up. You called it a dire wolf, which I found fascinating. You guys then find a dire wolf, what is it, like a jawbone?

• 2:44:13Speaker 01

  It's a whole carcass.

• 2:44:14Speaker 02

  A whole carcass.

• 2:44:15Speaker 01

  It's a decomposing carcass. Yeah, Jesse.

• 2:44:19Speaker 02

  And dire wolves don't are, they're on Time Magazine, you have Colossal Biosciences bringing back a dire wolf. Dire wolves are from 125,000 B.C. And so you found a dire wolf carcass on the ranch?

• 2:44:33Speaker 01

  So interestingly.

• 2:44:35Speaker 02

  Did it time travel there?

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  Well, there are portions of Skinwalker Ranch that had never been subjected to any scientific investigation or close study. One of those regions was what we call Dry Gulch Creek. There is this, there is this waterway that cuts through the property that, you know, that that warranted some investigation. There had been accounts, in fact, going back to the Shermans, accounts of orbs of light traveling that direction or, and, and even these giant wolves, wolf-like creatures that proceeded to head out toward that part of the ranch and disappeared. Well, we, we didn't know that we'd find anything other than, you know,

• 2:45:19Speaker 01

  at least be able to map that region of the property. And upon investigating Dry Gulch Creek, right there on camera, the team happens upon this carcass of this decomposing, large wolf-like creature. And thank goodness, I mean, it stunk. It was, what, what doesn't translate through the television is how disgusting it was. There were maggots everywhere, flies, it reeked. The guys, I mean,

• 2:45:55Speaker 01

  they weren't really excited to, to, to cut its jaw off to, to actually bag pieces of that, that, that animal. But they did, thank goodness, they had the presence of mind to take samples while it was falling apart, decomposing there right in the, the Dry Gulch Creek and proceeded to study it. In fact, they, we sent it immediately off to biologist Ben Woodruff, who has been our, our expert biologist. And Mr. Woodruff

• 2:46:30Speaker 01

  shockingly finds that the direct match to that jawbone, the direct match is a dire wolf species that's long extinct.

• 2:46:40Speaker 02

  That is why, that's wild.

• 2:46:42Speaker 01

  He puts it to the test. I mean, we show on the series, I mean, you, you see over several episodes.

• 2:46:46Speaker 02

  Wolves in the region?

• 2:46:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:46:47Speaker 02

  There are no wolves.

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  No, they're anomalies. If there is, they're, you look, you pull up all of the, the public data and it's, it's not only uncommon, it's just, it just isn't, no one's seen anything like this.

• 2:47:03Speaker 02

  Did they sequence the DNA?

• 2:47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we sent the DNA off to Colossal and it comes back, the majority of it, they can't identify. It's a mystery. Part, parts of the DNA, no surprise, are associated with the gray wolf species, but majority of it is inconclusive. So you take the physical evidence, you take the DNA, and then you look back on the accounts.

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  Wait, was this before or after Colossal resuscitated the dire wolf?

• 2:47:34Speaker 01

  They haven't yet. Oh, well, no, excuse me. They have. They had the two pups.

• 2:47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:39Speaker 01

  This is before.

• 2:47:40Speaker 02

  Interesting. So do you think that this is somehow connected with their resuscitation?

• 2:47:45Speaker 01

  Absolutely zero. No, there's absolutely no correlation or connection. It's just, they just happen to be the leading genetics testing lab.

• 2:47:53Speaker 02

  DNA.

• 2:47:53Speaker 01

  And they, they, they're trusted. I'm, I'm an angel investor.

• 2:47:59Speaker 02

  Oh, no, that's done really well.

• 2:48:01Speaker 01

  So I, I'm one of the early angels with, with that group you're familiar with that invested. And, and the CEO is a dear friend. I, Ben Lam is one of the, the great visionaries out there. But you look at how much this evidence helps support the accounts that were easily dismissed by so many people. People, people in the past that questioned the Shermans and the account of this large wolf like creature. And they're like, well, number one, there are no wolves in, in Utah, no large wolf-like species. There are no packs.

• 2:48:42Speaker 01

  Number two, it just defies any explanation. I mean, it just, it seems so fantastical. Yet we find actual physical evidence through our investigation and it's, it's deepened the mystery that much more. Anyone who's watched those episodes has got to be just, just as, as baffled as we are.

• 2:49:05Speaker 02

  I don't know how you explain that. That is, that's so wild.

• 2:49:08Speaker 01

  You don't. And the biology on that ranch, I mean, maybe there are portals to other, to, to, to other places and times that allow transit, because we don't, we don't know where, where they go, where they've come from.

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  Well, the Sherman story is something you would see Stephen Greenstreet be like, of course, you shot a shotgun at close range at the wolf that was oversized and no one ever saw it again or whatever.

• 2:49:35Speaker 01

  Oh, he thought they were all full of crap.

• 2:49:37Speaker 02

  And then decades later, you find a dire wolf carcass right there.

• 2:49:42Speaker 01

  And the jaw is a direct match. The teeth are a direct match to an extinct species.

• 2:49:48Speaker 02

  So.

• 2:49:48Speaker 01

  That has no place. There's, there's, there's no population out there. There's nothing. And then you have a sophisticated DNA test conducted that shows that it's inconclusive. It's a mystery. I mean, the majority of the material, you can't assign to anything. So.

• 2:50:07Speaker 01

  Go figure.

• 2:50:08Speaker 02

  Hmm. You've brought.

• 2:50:10Speaker 01

  I thought there'd be a hundred million people tune in.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:13Speaker 01

  Instead of a couple million, but.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  It's not bad. Um, you know, but yeah, it should be Super Bowl.

• 2:50:20Speaker 01

  I'm shocked. I, I don't, I don't know why people aren't more captivated by what we are presenting transparently to the public.

• 2:50:30Speaker 02

  It's really wild. It is, it is really, when you think about all of the things, they're so.

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  This isn't staged. The, these aren't reenactments like on Ancient Aliens or, or some other clip show where they're just simply asking why and this happened, you know, experts say that this happened, or, you know, it has been reported. No, we're showing.

• 2:50:52Speaker 02

  It's happening live.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  The public, what is playing out live without manipulation.

• 2:50:58Speaker 02

  It's so wild. And it's almost like the intelligence that you're studying, it's like this game of cat and mouse and it's toying with you. And you have, you know, Erik Bard. Yeah, I guess the sensors in the main, you know, uh, kind of, what do we call it?

• 2:51:15Speaker 01

  The command center.

• 2:51:16Speaker 02

  Command center. Um, you know, we're malfunctioning, the lights were turning on and off. And then at one point he gets super frustrated and he goes, if you're out there, just show yourself to me. And then you, you see the screens kind of freeze up and then it goes, I.

• 2:51:33Speaker 01

  Living. Yeah.

• 2:51:34Speaker 02

  So strange.

• 2:51:35Speaker 01

  He was, he was registering what ended up being thousands of intrusion events captured on the video surveillance of the command center. In the command center. And at the height of frustration,

• 2:51:52Speaker 01

  Erik Bard vocally says, if you have something to tell me, tell me. If you have something to show me, show me. And in that moment, the screen morphs

• 2:52:07Speaker 01

  and thank goodness

• 2:52:11Speaker 01

  Bard has the presence of mind to screen capture to just to, to, to literally save what happened on that screen.

• 2:52:23Speaker 01

  And then it goes back and is restored. And upon examination, you see that that screen, something had manipulated that image to pull

• 2:52:34Speaker 01

  letters together, completely out of sequence, no explanation, pull them together in a millisecond to form the words, I living.

• 2:52:48Speaker 08

  And then I said, all right, if you got something you want to show me, show me. If you got something you want to tell me, tell me. Then this is the immediate first screenshot.

• 2:52:58Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 2:52:59Speaker 01

  If that isn't evidence that, that we're dealing with communication, that we're dealing with intelligence and volition. I don't, I, I don't know what else.

• 2:53:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. What are, what are the statistical odds that happens by, by chance? It's one in a trillion.

• 2:53:16Speaker 01

  And the technology to enable that to happen.

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  To trigger that simultaneously, it's.

• 2:53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not, it's not around.

• 2:53:26Speaker 01

  These data points just keep adding up. Jesse, it's just one.

• 2:53:29Speaker 02

  I have a data point there. My editor, when he was making our original Skinwalker Ranch vlog, when we came four years ago, his screen froze up and it never did that. And it got all staticky and weird. And we put that in our original video. It's so crazy. So he's not, you know, especially at the time now, you know, he's more into these topics because it works with me. But at the time, you know, he wasn't super into any of this stuff. It seems like there are a number of quote unquote sacred objects out in the world that intelligently communicate with anyone around them. I don't know if you're familiar with the Baltic Sea anomaly? Do you know about this?

• 2:54:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:11Speaker 02

  This is in the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland. It's smack dab in the middle. I actually went with Dennis Asberg, who is, um, part of Ocean X. He's a treasure hunter. And the weirdest things happen when you're around this object. You have all sorts of GPS failures, electromagnetic anomalies, you know, the, the whole electricity on the whole entire boat just goes out. The, uh, you know, remote, uh, controlled underwater drone, you know, uh, immediately goes out. It's really wild.

• 2:54:43Speaker 01

  Sounds familiar.

• 2:54:44Speaker 02

  It's the same thing.

• 2:54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:54:46Speaker 02

  And so, and then this is really weird. And I didn't even put this in my Baltic Sea anomaly documentary because I thought it would discredit me. It's so weird, but I'll just say it here because it's in the context.

• 2:54:57Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:54:57Speaker 02

  It's, it, there's a pattern here. I have a friend who built an app called SyncText, S Y N C T X T. It's basically a random event generator. So ones and zeros tied to something, you know, provably random in quantum mechanics or thought of as random, like, you know, radioactive isotope decay or double slit experiment, whatever. And, but, but in this case, instead of being tied to one or zero, it's tied to, I think probably tokens or sentences. So it's a random like sentence generator.

• 2:55:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:55:30Speaker 02

  So you could get all sorts of messages and often they happen to be kind of synchronistic beyond chance, but that's, that's kind of the, the whole thing, right? So, uh, we are out here monitoring this, this object and, you know, again, like, like Skinwalker, it's like, you know, strange things are happening. The power went out on the boat, but it, you know, nothing like insane, right? Cause it's like, this is just one time we're out there, but a ton of strange things have happened around the object. Lightning has struck the object. Smoke has been seen coming out. NATO ships are circling it. Super strange.

• 2:56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56:06Speaker 02

  So this is over, over years, just like you guys have years of data. And the, the, um, the drone goes out all of a sudden, the power on it, as we're kind of surveying the thing, like the thing doesn't want to be surveyed. And nobody has reception. Not only does nobody have reception, I think the transponder was off on the ship. So there were no like local comms being made. We were out at sea and I get a text on my phone and you can ask anybody there with me about this happening and they'll all corroborate this story. And it's a text on SyncText and it says, how long will you be down here for?

• 2:56:49Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:56:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:52Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  It's awesome. It's wild.

• 2:56:55Speaker 01

  And that's similar.

• 2:56:56Speaker 02

  Similar.

• 2:56:57Speaker 01

  Again, you're talking about the same patterns.

• 2:57:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:57:02Speaker 01

  Same type of phenomena.

• 2:57:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:57:05Speaker 01

  Around a place, an object.

• 2:57:08Speaker 02

  Yes. It's the same, it's the same thing. And it's so, so it just felt too relevant to not say. And, uh.

• 2:57:15Speaker 01

  I love it. Thank you for sharing.

• 2:57:17Speaker 02

  Of course. And no, and it, look, it's, I'm pretty sure it's timestamped, uh, you know, as far as the, the, the text.

• 2:57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:25Speaker 02

  Uh, so there, and if not.

• 2:57:26Speaker 01

  So you've got all the metadata.

• 2:57:28Speaker 02

  I've got all the metadata.

• 2:57:28Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 2:57:29Speaker 02

  And then I was there then, you know, and I have all these witnesses. So like, I, you know.

• 2:57:33Speaker 01

  See that, that's so important. Everything we have, even the earliest UFO images that were captured above Skinwalker Ranch under my stewardship.

• 2:57:45Speaker 01

  I have the metadata. I have all of the metadata and the other uh, evidence regarding the air traffic during the day, you know, witness, uh, testimony, all of the, you know, what you would, what you would want to have access to.

• 2:58:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:58:03Speaker 01

  From a data, uh, driven approach.

• 2:58:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's incredible. That's incredible.

• 2:58:07Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 2:58:08Speaker 02

  It's such an important data set that, you know, hopefully open source scientists, you know, civilian scientists can continue to come to the ranch.

• 2:58:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:58:16Speaker 02

  And continue to sort of investigate this stuff. Some of the most interesting investigations I've seen you do involve bringing humans to, to the ranch who are doing kind of ancient tradition, you know, practices. You brought in a rabbi who did like a Kabbalistic prayer.

• 2:58:32Speaker 01

  Rabbi Ariel Zadok's experiment where he claimed that, that, you know, he had a rabidical chant that would open portals to other realms. And we thought, why not? Let's, we invite experts from various spiritual traditions.

• 2:58:52Speaker 02

  You brought Native American shamans.

• 2:58:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I thought absolutely, I welcome Rabbi Zadok. This will be an interesting exercise. Do I expect anything to come of it? No. But I think it will be, it will be interesting and it will, it will be great to have his perspective. Well, we have this FLIR camera, this, you know, $35,000 FLIR camera system set up to monitor the environment during the course of his chant, his experiment. And of course, what plays out is all in the public domain. It's all, it's all been made public. The temperature drops dramatically around Homestead two and right in the doorway, right in the entry of Homestead two, it goes

• 2:59:36Speaker 01

  to freezing black, freezing cold temperatures.

• 2:59:40Speaker 03

  So Ariel starts his ceremony and while he's doing the chant, I happen to notice that there's some kind of anomaly in front of the doorway of Homestead two. Eric, come here a minute. Look at the difference in the FLIR imagery now. It's completely changed. I've not seen this do this before.

• 2:59:57Speaker 01

  They stop the exercise. The men walk over to see if there is this an equipment malfunction or is it really is, is, can we really feel, physically feel a change in the environment that would, that would match up? And of course, they all witness what they described as walking into a deep freeze. The environment in seconds, in the middle of July in Utah.

• 3:00:28Speaker 01

  Changed in the midst of that, that, that ceremony. And, and we even caught an object moving about, probably conducting some type of surveillance activity that came, that appeared.

• 3:00:46Speaker 01

  What was, I think, just as interesting is after the rabbi left, we decided, you know, to repeat the experiment. We had the audio, so we played the audio back.

• 3:01:01Speaker 01

  And we had the reverse happen. Temperature elevated and in that exercise, an orb of light appeared in the homestead. And the men ended up seeing some object through their night vision goggles that they ended up tracing and following through the field behind Homestead two.

• 3:01:27Speaker 01

  That whole exercise was incredible confirmation that what, what we are dealing with is, is not only real, but there's, there is a spiritual element to this.

• 3:01:44Speaker 01

  Why did Rabbi Zidoc's chant his prayer, open this, this portal or change the environment? What would cause that?

• 3:01:57Speaker 01

  It's, it's a fascinating part of what happens on the ranch and only at Skinwalker Ranch. And we've brought back Native American shaman.

• 3:02:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:08Speaker 01

  Uh, with other strange things that have occurred. In fact, on the current season, we've done that. With some interesting results, we even just conducted in a, a brain experiment back, back at Homestead two. Involving a, a scientist that is an expert in what's EEG and, and really monitoring brain function and whoa, the results were shocking.

• 3:02:35Speaker 02

  I think he walked into the homestead and the EEG shut down and then he walked out and it was back online and it was super strange.

• 3:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02:43Speaker 02

  And, um, Chris Bledsoe as well, super experiencer who, you know, has had all sorts of fascinating experiences with the, the lady, but also UFOs showing up at his house in Fayetteville, North Carolina. He went to Skinwalker Ranch as well.

• 3:02:59Speaker 01

  He did. We didn't end up airing, um, that content. It was really kind of inconclusive.

• 3:03:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:03:07Speaker 01

  A nice guy.

• 3:03:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:03:09Speaker 01

  Really enjoyed my interaction with Chris and his team, but, um, but we're pretty particular about what we, what we, uh, what we reveal, what we present. And I, I think it's important to note that 95% of what we film and document doesn't end up.

• 3:03:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:03:31Speaker 01

  Making it.

• 3:03:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:03:33Speaker 01

  The series.

• 3:03:33Speaker 02

  And I'm sure you, sometimes you think you detect a thing and then you are able to prosaically explain it and.

• 3:03:39Speaker 01

  Well, and, and we show that and, and sometimes it's difficult to know whether it's appropriate to air.

• 3:03:47Speaker 01

  You know, certain experiments or certain things, not because we want to hide anything or that we want to, to, um, omit anything. I, in fact, I, I'm completely the opposite, but I want to, I want to reveal everything, but we only have

• 3:04:04Speaker 01

  a certain time.

• 3:04:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 3:04:05Speaker 01

  And that's one of the challenges associated with the framework of, of a documentary series is you've, you have to, you have to carefully edit thousands of hours of video and audio content. You can probably empathize.

• 3:04:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:04:21Speaker 01

  It's a freaking nightmare.

• 3:04:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:24Speaker 01

  For my partners, my team. It's a miracle that we have what we do have because it's just amassing all of that material and then, and then, you know, being able to, uh, to organize it such that, uh, that we can present it months later. It's a, it's a huge effort.

• 3:04:44Speaker 02

  Do you feel like there are people that are just like Skinwalker Ranch is a kind of hotspot of this stuff geographically? Do you feel like there are people that the phenomenon team seems to kind of show up more around?

• 3:04:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:05:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:05:00Speaker 01

  Generationally.

• 3:05:01Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah. I would agree with that.

• 3:05:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:05:05Speaker 02

  Is that, does that run at all in your family or?

• 3:05:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:05:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:05:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 3:05:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:05:10Speaker 01

  No, we have no evidence of anything like that.

• 3:05:13Speaker 02

  Do you, do you have any theories, you know, having done this for, was this now 10 years that you've, you've owned it? Well, it's amazing. So have, do you have any theories as to what? Cause obviously you have all this data. You have an incredible amount of data. And then are there any theories as to what's happening and what this means about reality itself?

• 3:05:33Speaker 01

  Well,

• 3:05:36Speaker 01

  we know there's something above the ranch. We've caught it from multiple camera points. We've,

• 3:05:43Speaker 01

  we've documented it. We've documented in effect that there is something within the space above the ranch that defies rockets, that manipulates drones, that,

• 3:05:58Speaker 01

  that is very real. And we've documented that there's, that there are anomalies below the ranch. As above, so below. There's, there's something there. Whether it is an interstellar highway, Stargate gateway to other dimensions, other worlds.

• 3:06:20Speaker 01

  The, the combined evidence and the anomalies speak to, to, to the reality of that. It's, it's no longer just a question or, or just theory. I think we're now dealing with hard data.

• 3:06:34Speaker 01

  I think the, the darker elements, the, the malevolence, the, the consciousness related aspects of this warrant some very serious and humble investigation. And, and that's going to be a, a key part of my effort. Uh, moving forward, um, where are these UFOs coming from? Why, why do unidentified aerial phenomena seem to appear when we are, when we are testing the environment, when we're poking the hornet's nest, as Dr. Taylor would say? What, are they defending something? Are they hiding something or are they being revealed as observers?

• 3:07:20Speaker 01

  We'll see. It's real. And it's, it's, um,

• 3:07:30Speaker 01

  it's really sobering to look back on the, just the, the documentary record of what we've experienced.

• 3:07:38Speaker 02

  It seems like there are patterns as far as other geographical hotspots. Sacred Native American lands and nuclear sites. And I know, you know, Skinwalker isn't a nuclear site per se, but it's in proximity to some.

• 3:07:55Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 3:07:56Speaker 02

  Past testing, no?

• 3:07:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:07:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:07:58Speaker 01

  They're, they're, that was, that was a stretch by people to say that some.

• 3:08:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Some of the testing in Nevada could have.

• 3:08:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:08:06Speaker 01

  The winds could have blown material up here and that's, that's somehow that's created some of the elevated microwave and radio.

• 3:08:14Speaker 02

  Okay. So that's.

• 3:08:14Speaker 01

  No, it's.

• 3:08:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08:16Speaker 01

  Well, not only a stretch, there's just.

• 3:08:17Speaker 02

  Making it up.

• 3:08:19Speaker 01

  It's, uh, it's just as silly as swamp gas.

• 3:08:22Speaker 02

  Well, I would say there's a third thing, which is mineral rich areas seem to attract this.

• 3:08:27Speaker 01

  There is, and I think that may be a key, a key part of what is, why? You know, the U Inta Basin is a mysterious place. It's not just us. You look back on, you know, Junior Hicks, who was the, the historian, he was with us for that first season or two. He ended up, he passed away sadly, um, when we were entering our second season of filming the docu-series, but he'd been with us within weeks of me acquiring the property. He became a fast friend, a confidant. Worked closely with Thomas Winterton and Jim Morse, who we refer to him as Uncle Jim. And Junior Hicks had detailed files going back to 1950,

• 3:09:13Speaker 01

  documenting hundreds of UFO sightings and bizarre incidents in that area. And it's, uh, it's found in the book, the Utah UFO display.

• 3:09:31Speaker 01

  He came on as a consultant.

• 3:09:34Speaker 01

  Gave testimony to the reality of what had been going on there long before Bigelow or Sherman. That's what people don't understand. Our investigation has unearthed the fact that there are accounts that go back to the 1930s with the early homesteaders of bizarre cattle mutilation and other strange activity on this property. We're talking almost 100 years of documented incidents, history, accounts, even accounts, the people coming on the ranch during the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s and having encounters. And these are credible people.

• 3:10:16Speaker 02

  Do you think-

• 3:10:17Speaker 01

  Law enforcement even, so.

• 3:10:18Speaker 02

  Wow. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Buffalo Soldiers were Freemasons? Obviously, you have that inscription, you know, as above, so below. Do you think that that is somehow part and parcel of what's going on?

• 3:10:35Speaker 01

  I think it's all part of the overall very intriguing history. And it's a key element potentially in why this property and our archaeologist, Chris Roberts, has now documented going back over 8,000 years of artifacts, of evidence of habitation on this property, not as a main dwelling site, but as a ceremonial site, as a site of interest of gathering, a gathering place.

• 3:11:12Speaker 01

  That is rare, very, very rare to find artifacts that that date back that far that show that for whatever reason, the ancients were drawn to this site.

• 3:11:30Speaker 01

  I think we could learn a lot.

• 3:11:32Speaker 02

  Do you want to-

• 3:11:33Speaker 01

  By studying that.

• 3:11:34Speaker 02

  Do you want to be able to not only see, but scientifically study a UFO?

• 3:11:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Maybe we will.

• 3:11:42Speaker 02

  Maybe we will. Do you think that Bigelow has done that?

• 3:11:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:11:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:11:51Speaker 02

  Are you ever afraid for your life, given that you're-

• 3:11:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:11:58Speaker 02

  And how do you, how do you sort of, do you just put the blinders on and ignore it?

• 3:12:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 3:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's-

• 3:12:04Speaker 01

  I'm not going to, I'm going to try to not be motivated or governed by fear. I just have to keep focus.

• 3:12:12Speaker 02

  Does studying all this stuff reaffirm your belief in God? Or does it make you kind of more existentially anxious and unsure of God? Or what, how does it kind of change your relationship with God and your faith?

• 3:12:31Speaker 01

  I believe what we are seeing is confirmation that we live in a divinely constructed, intelligently designed reality. I think there is a higher power. I think that, I think we, we have dated a show that, that that is the case. I find

• 3:12:52Speaker 01

  the fact that we're not alone in the universe,

• 3:12:56Speaker 01

  that

• 3:12:58Speaker 01

  that reality is much more complex than people would lead us to believe in certain positions is evidence that that there is more than meets the eye. I found that my faith has been strengthened. I bought the ranch as not only a scientific skeptic, someone very skeptical of any paranormal or extraordinary claims, but I also was questioning faith at that time. I, I had deep, deep concerns about organized religion, even my own faith tradition. And I've honestly come full circle. My faith is stronger today

• 3:13:42Speaker 01

  than ever. And is the,

• 3:13:48Speaker 01

  is it driven, is my investigation driven by trying to prove the existence of God or my faith tradition? Absolutely not. Never has been, never will. But it is an interesting coincidence that at the same time I'm having these profound experiences that actually shift me from being a skeptic to an experiencer. I'm also coming face to face with my own faith traditions. And, and actually looking at them through a different lens, looking at, I, I would tell you, I, to be really transparent.

• 3:14:30Speaker 01

  I, I love my, my faith, my, my Latter Day Saint faith more now and appreciate it more now than ever before. I find that Mormonism and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only religion that really full on speaks about and teaches that we are not alone in the universe and is, has a more of a cosmic worldview.

• 3:14:58Speaker 01

  I think that's a fun coincidence to a degree relative to this investigation and it's, you know, it's validating. Is it a driving force? Absolutely not. It's just happens to be.

• 3:15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:11Speaker 01

  And I, I feel more, more humbled right now because I, I feel like I know less than I've ever known in my life. I feel like the further we go into our research, the further I, I go in life, the less I know.

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, the more you know, the less you know.

• 3:15:27Speaker 01

  But at the same time, I find more inspiration and I find more peace and validation in those things that I was taught from a very young age. And, and we're all in this together. That's one thing that is, that is also

• 3:15:45Speaker 01

  an inspiring part of this whole effort to bring a group of people from different faith traditions. Some of them are completely, they're agnostic or they have, I have some friends that are vocal atheists, but

• 3:16:00Speaker 01

  and, and they're great people and people that I deeply love and respect. And they bring perspective that has been helpful and we all find common ground together through this investigation. And that's the thing. These questions that have been, that have been asked since the beginning of time that we are trying to answer, and I believe answering on Skinwalker Ranch are unifying. I think they show that, you know, the human family should be working together.

• 3:16:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Well, that was a beautiful bookend sort of, you know, speech to what was an amazing interview. I appreciate you coming on so much, Brandon. And yeah, I think, you know, in many ways, bringing it back with, you know, I think, you know, Mormonism would probably be the least ontologically shocked religion if we get disclosure.

• 3:16:54Speaker 01

  It is.

• 3:16:54Speaker 02

  And, and I do think it would be a poetic culmination of all your disparate, you know, interests if we were to

• 3:17:02Speaker 02

  find something very concrete under that mesa, which I, I believe there is something very, very concrete. I mean, clearly there is because of what's coming out.

• 3:17:09Speaker 01

  Well, there's something unusual and it defies any conventional explanation. So let's, yeah, bring it on. And also whatever we're, whatever we are documenting above the mesa.

• 3:17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17:19Speaker 01

  In the skies. Why? Why are we seeing UFOs and other activity? I want to have those answers and I want to document where they're coming from and why.

• 3:17:31Speaker 02

  I, I love it. Well, I, I hope you get the answers and it's, it's such a fascinating thing to watch in public. This is an unprecedented time where if there is an object under that mesa, it's like, this is the Super Bowl. And it's like, and, and, and you know, watching all of the characters, all of your amazing investigators grapple with some of the, you know, psychological stuff, but the scientific stuff as well and, and having to introspect about their orientation towards the whole subject and the phenomenon as they continue to move forward is really a kind of a microcosm of, you know, any sort of meaning seeker's life, you know, as you, as you move towards

• 3:18:15Speaker 02

  sort of a big T truth, you're having to constantly question yourself and your intentions. And it's, it's amazing to watch live on the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch.

• 3:18:26Speaker 01

  It all play out. I, I think there are two statements from one of my favorite shows of all time that are relevant coming from the X-Files. Trust no one. The truth is out there. And both can be applied in, in this realm of inquiry and this investigation.

• 3:18:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. And hey, it's not a coincidence that Chris Carter had a, a security clearance. So

• 3:18:54Speaker 02

  there you go. Well, Brandon, thank you so much for this. I appreciate it. It was an honor and this is going to be a hell of an episode.

• 3:19:00Speaker 01

  Good to be with you. Onward.

• 3:19:02Speaker 02

  Onward. Oh.

• 3:19:37Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.