The UFO Cover-Up Leads to One Secret Society — and One Final Event

Our American Alchemist this week is Jason Samosa. Check out Jason’s channel at https://www.youtube.com/@jason_samosa Please support our channel by checking out our amazing sponsors below! Incogni: Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy Qualia: Curious about creatine? Go to https://qualialife.com/JESSE to get 50% off and save an extra 15% with the code JESSE. Chubbies: Chubbies is here to keep you comfy and looking good year-round. Get 20% off with code jesse at https://chubbiesshorts.com/jesse! #chubbiespod -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:20 - Sponsor (Incogni) 3:50 - Guest Introduction 4:42 - Vallée and the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis 8:31 - The Impending Apocalypse Message 9:41 - When Prophecy Fails and UFO Cults 11:31 - Jolly West and MK-Ultra 12:33 - Apocalypticism Goes Mainstream 13:46 - The Demonic Overlay and the Collins Elite 20:25 - Doug Coe and The Family 23:47 - Intermediary Beings Across Religions 24:48 - Why Christianity Scaled 25:25 - Jason's Origin Story 30:54 - Disclosure as a Personal Process 34:04 - The Tom DeLonge Story 41:24 - Why UFOs Resurged in Popularity 42:52 - Vallée's Journals and "Confirmation" 47:12 - Presidents and UFO Briefings 48:06 - Clinton's Push for Information 48:57 - The CIA's Weird Desk 51:16 - Obama and UFOs 53:49 - Greenwald's FOIA Findings 54:35 - AAWSAP, AATIP, and Known Programs 56:02 - Grusch and the Legacy Program 57:15 - Sponsor (Qualia) 58:55 - Sponsor (Chubbies) 1:00:03 - What's Going On Inside Government 1:00:46 - The Aztec, New Mexico Crash 1:03:01 - Control Systems and Von Neumann Probes 1:04:18 - Vallée's Capella Database 1:07:39 - Personal Evolution Over Disclosure 1:08:48 - The Human Technology Angle 1:09:11 - Bob Lazar and Parallel Engineering 1:12:13 - Nazi Disc Craft 1:16:16 - McCasland's Disappearance 1:18:05 - The Maison Rouge Meeting 1:21:11 - Prescott Bush, Dulles, and Ford 1:25:52 - Relocating Nazi Technology 1:26:53 - The World Commerce Corporation 1:29:18 - Rockefeller and UFOs 1:40:46 - Howard Hughes in the Bahamas 1:43:56 - Semivan on Private Intelligence Networks 1:47:45 - Robert Maxwell and Permindex 1:51:18 - Epstein, Deep State, and UFOs 1:58:58 - King Charles and the Royal Family 2:02:39 - Ed May and Prince Hans-Adam 2:04:38 - Where Disclosure Goes From Here 2:07:41 - Elizondo and Hybrids 2:13:15 - Semivan on Alien-Human Hybrids 2:17:30 - Does the Vatican Know 2:19:16 - Metternich and the Secrets of Fatima 2:22:46 - The Magenta Crash and Majestic 12 2:25:41 - AFOSI and the Knights of Malta 2:30:30 - Where to Find Jason Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  The message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time. But that grand vision hasn't arrived yet. If you think the apocalypse is lingering 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating.

• 1:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  So it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet.

• 1:20Speaker 03

  Jason Samosa runs one of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  I think one of the things people already struggle with is can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it? There is an organization which was created initially in 1945. It's called the World Commerce Corporation. On the board, Donovan, Stevenson, Hambrus, Dulles doing the legal counsel. You've got Papal Aristocracy on the board as well. But eventually, it links to the Bahamas with Thomas Townsend Brown and that whole geographical location.

• 1:53Speaker 03

  How does it link with the Bahamas?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, Resorts International. Are you familiar with them?

• 2:00Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  There's this paint company called the Mary Carter Paint Company, which is then converted into this organization called Resorts International. It suddenly has a subsidiary, which has a private intelligence network called Intertel, which is doing very dubious stuff. You know who becomes the controller of Resorts International in the mid-'80s?

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Ew.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Donald Trump.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  No way.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  You see this sort of conflation of the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  It's shifting gears before both of us get whacked. The royal prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adam. He believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  That would be a great end to it all.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm back.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Revelation, it's like, it's a revelation. New information is coming in. So how we view the future, I think, is really important. The lens through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  Existence cannot longer be denied.

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• 4:48Speaker 03

  Thank you so much to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  I'm here with Jason Samosa, who runs one of my favorite YouTube channels on UFOs. You're incredible at explaining things, at breaking things down, really complicated, kind of complex threads in ufology, and also explaining to people, I think, where they get thrown off most when it comes to UFOs. And it's just an amazing channel. You do all these historical deep dives. And so I'm really grateful to have you, man.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Thanks, Jesse. It's good to be here, man.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  I think people on the outside of ufology assume, you know, it's all just kind of, you know, little green men coming from Zeta Reticuli or something. I think you have a much kind of deeper, more complex understanding of the topic. Is that your kind of base case assumption that these are just extraterrestrial travelers?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  I think when it comes to that, I tend to rest on Jacques Vallée's work. You know, if you read Messengers of Deception, he talks about how the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't make much sense. We have so many cases of these things coming in, and they land on our planet, and they behave in unusual ways. And after a while, you begin to ask the question, well, what is it that they're trying to achieve? Right? If they're coming here to do some sort of reconnaissance or some sort of investigation, why have they continued to land over and over again? And why are there so many different variations of them? So the extraterrestrial hypothesis doesn't do justice to the data. But I think one of the big issues there is most people, when they see that, they just throw it out. They say, well, if I can't rationalize that data based on the hypothesis I think it should fit,

• 6:26Speaker 02

  therefore, I'm not going to take this topic seriously. But in reality, there are other layers you can go to then. When you see all of these cases and that sort of strange, what are they doing here? You might be able to go a level deeper in terms of trying to understand it. And I think that's where Vallée is particularly helpful.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  So what do you and what does Jacques Vallée think they are doing here?

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad to be grouped together with Vallée. I'll tell you what the two of us have discussed.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I think Jacques Vallée looks at those cases and says, well, what is the impact that UFOs are having on society? Okay, so we're seeing a phenomenon, and we're seeing the data of that becoming kind of indisputable, however strange it might be. It's possible that the objectives of that phenomenon may be something more subtle. And so what he does is he looks at the cultural impact of UFOs over time. And what impact does that have on human belief systems? And therefore, what can we assume the motivations might be of the beings that operate this thing? And by the way, it may well be, and I think he said this recently in the James Fox thing that he did, we may be engaging with an artificial intelligence,

• 7:37Speaker 02

  which in turn has been created by a non-human intelligence from another planet.

• 7:42Speaker 05

  The current segmentation of the data hinders any serious research into what appears to be an extraterrestrial phenomenon empowered by advanced artificial intelligence.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  So it could be the case that there's sort of layers to this as well. But what impact is this huge, vast system having? Because obviously, there's been a huge investment to create this thing, which continually reappears and does all these things. So what could the motivations be? And I think that's the angle he goes down.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's like humans and human belief systems are the end product. They're not like some incidental result of another thing that's going on. The intended effect is actually to create mythology in some ways.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And he talks about how symbols and mythology may exist at a level that's kind of a level down from our normal discourse, and that those changes can be quite profound over time. So yes, it could be that a slow shift in how we perceive ourselves and the world around us could be the intention. Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  So then you have to view that mythology that gets created through kind of a suspicious hermeneutic. You have to say, okay, you know, if we start to talk about environmental destruction and nuclear war and all these things. Maybe taking those things at face value isn't the best idea. I mean, maybe they are to be taken at face value. Maybe these beings are coming from another planet and they're saying, you're destroying yourself. You're on the eve of the apocalypse or whatever. And then, and then maybe there's some intended effect that, you know, maybe that's, they know that that narrative is charismatic and so they'll give it to, to us. But they're actually sort of, you know, messengers of deception.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a big thing. The, uh, the message of the impending apocalypse has been with us for a long time. Like if you read the Old Testament prophets, uh, so much of it is the doom and gloom of what's about to come. And, you know, in many ways, we experienced that in some form throughout history, but that grand vision hasn't arrived yet. And it's, it's, this is one of the huge challenges, and I think this is why this idea of deception is so important is, how am I supposed to delineate between what this phenomenon is trying to generate in terms of our human culture? And what we're trying to achieve potentially in response to it? Because when you get to this point where we're questioning whether or not our beliefs and our thoughts are our own,

• 10:08Speaker 02

  you kind of collapse into this solipsism, you know, and it doesn't become very helpful. So.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Or radical Cartesian doubt.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. Like, how am I supposed to figure out what I'm supposed to be thinking?

• 10:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Right? It's a little bit too deep. Um, so I don't know what the answers are there in terms of what the phenomenon is trying to achieve. But I think certainly the, everything we encounter is an extraterrestrial being and every single experience should be taken at face value. Is maybe too simplistic an approach because on balance, it appears to be very deceptive.

• 10:40Speaker 03

  Hmm. And yeah, apocalypse, I believe there's a, what's that? Uh, it's like, uh, when prophecy fails was this like, you know, in the, the 50s, there was this cult created in Ohio. And it, the, the cult creation seems to be this thing in ufology where like you have this one kind of contactee. Uh, you know, and, uh, around that person is created this sort of mythology. And you end up with, you know, and they, they, often there's a prophecy involved and they're like, you know, something's going to happen in like the next few years or something.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Do you think that is a kind of a, a core product of ufology and UFO contact? Whether, you know, going back to like, you know, Adamski and people like that, you know, that, you know, the, some of the early contactees in the US.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, whether it's the intention of the phenomenon or not to create those cults, they do appear. And, you know, this is one of these things where belief systems can spawn quite extreme outcomes because, you know, if a group of us are experiencing something that feels truly phenomenal, and no one on the outside can even interact with that on an experiential level, our ability to have coherent dialogue with the outside world completely collapses. And so what happens is you get this little bubble of, of experience, which just begins to go off on its own completely, um, you know, separate from the world. So I think that does happen. There is a, a part that, you know, Vale talks about messenger deception where

• 12:07Speaker 02

  he talks about how if suddenly there was a mass appearance of UFOs in the world, so let's say some sort of event, those cults could suddenly blossom whilst trust in the government collapses. And that's one of the fears that he's got. He suggests that actually we need to be very aware that the current status quo of what's going on on the planet could suddenly change overnight in a mass appearance event. And, uh, you know, that could be very concerning.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think it's concerning for governments as well, like, uh, Jolly West, do you know who that is? He was one of the architects of, uh, MKUltra and he was the head of UCLA psychiatry out in LA, actually. And, you know, now there are all these theories that he might have brainwashed Charles Manson, really crazy. But he, his whole thing was he, he was really interested in cult creation. And Philip Zimbardo at Stanford with the Stanford prison experiments, like all, so very similar. A lot of this psychology, that was probably state funded at the time, was, it was extremely interested in the, uh, creation of cults because as you're saying, those are kind of inherently subversive organizations. And so, yeah, it's, it's interesting to think of ufology through that, through that lens.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And some of these cults are, seem to be very apocalyptic. That seems to be like a, a part of their, their whole thing. Like, you know, that the end times are here, we're living in the, you know, we're, you know, the, his, the book of revelations or something and.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Interesting how that's kind of gone beyond just cults now into our mainstream as well, right? You know, we've moved to a point where this idea of the apocalypse, it's kind of just part of how we see the world. You know, is that a progression from the cults or the phenomenon over time? This, it creates a sense of desperation and urgency around people which could be manipulated, you know?

• 13:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Like to say, uh, if you know that your mom's about to cook dinner, if she tells you that dinner's going to be ready in one hour, you're much less likely to go to the fridge.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Right?

• 14:03Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  So if you think the apocalypse is lingering, I don't know, 10 years into the future, there's all sorts of things you're not going to do or bother investigating.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  So it really is a huge way that you can control the behavior of an entire planet is if they all become convinced that we're pretty much at the end of things. Or even if that's lingering in the subconscious.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, it could be totally used as a way to kind of pacify people. What, what do you think, I guess, cause a lot of what you cover also are these kind of analytical overlays imposed on the UFO question by, you know, various groups. And so one would be the extraterrestrial thing. Another thing would be angels and demons and the whole, you know, kind of Judeo-Christian overlay. You want to talk a little bit about that?

• 14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this is super important. Um, a lot of people are trying to grapple with what the phenomenon is. And so we go from the extraterrestrial hypothesis and we begin to see it doesn't make a lot of sense of what we're seeing. But you can move over and you can start to consider it to be demonic, right? And there is a correlation between occult activity and the phenomenon that's demonstrable. And, you know, Vale's demonstrated that and Peter Lavenda, uh, there are so many examples of this. So it is compelling to ask the question, maybe the extraterrestrial, the demon, the angel, all of these different things are sort of a consistent experience of the same phenomenon underneath. And I think that that's very compelling. What can happen there is you can quickly begin to move over and say, well, wait a second.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  The Bible said a whole bunch of really interesting things about these beings. You know, for example, that there are these fallen angels that become these demons and that they're deceptive. And that there's this huge end times deception, which is designed to trick humanity into moving away from God and science or belief, some sort of false doctrine. And a lot of people look at the phenomenon, they say, it's not extraterrestrial and it is deceptive and it correlates with the occult. And so what happens is very quickly we snap into this idea that this could be validating the Bible. There's a problem here, which is kind of circular reasoning. You're using this sort of, I think relatively useful interpretation of the phenomenon to go back to the Bible and say, wait a minute, maybe we should give this book a second look.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  But actually underneath there, you're also using the Bible to create the argument in the first place. And so a lot of this comes down to whether or not we take the Bible to be a source of authority on how we interpret things. Or whether or not we actually focus on the science of the phenomenon. And I think it's interesting to look through the community. I mean, I recently made a video on the Collins Elite, right? Where I explored this topic in depth. And I was trying my best to steel man the argument that UFOs could be demons. Because I thought it's interesting and it's good to build that picture. Inadvertently in the comments, there's so many people saying, I knew the Bible was right, all of this stuff. And I'm just like, no, that's not what I was trying to say. But so quickly people get funneled down there and it can lead to quite extreme outcomes.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Because the moment the Bible becomes your epistemological foundation, your ability to look at all the other data shuts down. And I think it's a big issue that we have to grapple with as things accelerate.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Who are the Collins Elite?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Gosh, I wish I could tell you with complete confidence who they are. You know, one of the interesting things I've learned is that I think people on the inside talk about the Collins Elite, they've been talking about them for a while, whether it's, you know, Jacques Vallée or George Knapp or whoever. When they use that word, I think they're often referring to multiple things. So first and foremost, you've got fantastic book by Nick Redfern, Final Events, where he talks about this program called, we don't know the real name, but it's known as the Collins Elite. It was founded in, uh, well, it traces back to right after the Roswell crash. They're trying to understand what this phenomenon is. And if you read, um, Ru Pelt's book on, uh, you know, the unexplained stuff that was going on then,

• 17:54Speaker 02

  he talks through how they go through all these hypotheses. It's like, is it human? Could it be Russian? Could it somehow be Nazi technology? And then there's this extraterrestrial hypothesis. What this Collins Elite thing reveals is there was also a conversation about whether it could be, uh, overlaid with the occult or what was being experienced. So that eventually leads to a funded program, according to Nick Redfern's sources. And he met with a bunch of people who validated other sources he had. And that was nineteen fifty-two through the Directorate of Plans in the CIA, I think. They unlocked funding and basically about twelve people were employed to look into this full time. So you have a funded program, which I don't think special access programs were a thing then by that terminology.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  But it sounds like that because Directorate of Plans funding is associated with Mockingbird, Gladio, all these like really covert operations. So you've got that program investigating the correlation between UFOs and the occult. You've also got other components. So if you read Valet's journals, uh, he points out Alonso McDonald as being uniquely involved in this. And I'm looking at Alonso McDonald, who I know you, you had your, um, discussion with the two Eric's recently, right? Where he came up, Alonso McDonald was the staff director for, uh, Jimmy Carton. And if you look at him, he was, uh, I think he was CEO of McKinsey, right? Consulting firm. So I'm like, Alonso McDonald isn't going to be invited into a very, very sensitive program,

• 19:23Speaker 02

  exploring the relationship between UFOs and the occult could be completely wrong, but it just doesn't seem like that would be the case. So I began to look into that and ask the question, well, what's going on? And if you look into this organization called the family, the fellowship, they were founded in the thirties and really took off in the post-war era. And they basically created this invisible network of sort of Protestant Christians throughout government. And it's a wonderful book by a guy called Jeff Charlotte or Charlotte. It's a brilliant book where he basically explores this and identifies key members of the family. Alonso McDonald is, is one of them. That network has many people who've been involved in sort of UFO adjacent stuff.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  So when you go into the Reagan administration, you've got James Baker, who's then his staff director. James Baker is also a member of the family. So, you know, the Democrats lose, the Republicans win, but you have a consistent presence of the family right at the nexus of power in the executive branch. And James Baker is also a member of the family and he's involved in a UFO breach, uh, briefing, according to Nick Redfern. So he's invited into, uh, a briefing that Reagan gets where a bunch of people come in. One's from CIA S and T, which is presumably Kit Green and his people. You've got the Collins elite who come in and then there's another group who, who do a briefing as well.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Alonso McDonald, James Baker, both sat in or had, you know, direct information about the UFO topic within the context of the White House. So it raises the question, this network of people, how big is it and what do they know? And sometimes if someone is trying to shut down activity in the government related to UFO investigations, because they claim that it's demonic and you shouldn't be looking into this, don't just assume that it's that nineteen fifty-two program, which has become known as the Collins elite. It may well be that it's the family, which also sometimes I think fly under the same moniker. And those are just two components out of three. So just to get us started.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, this guy Doug Coe was the, one of the leaders of the family in the eighties. And he would hold this prayer breakfast and all of the presidents would have to attend the prayer breakfast. And, you know, it almost felt like at the prayer breakfast, Doug had more status than the presidents or something. So it's super fascinating. Well, it's funny when I hear, you know, people talking about aliens as angels or demons. I have like two reactions. One is, you know, if sometime you'll hear like, um, you know, Sean Ryan and Tucker Carlson and like, we think it's spiritual. We think it's demonic. And then I say, well, what does that mean? What are you like? You're just saying, you're just saying an angel or a demon.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  What is an angel or a demon? Like you do have these, you know, angel hierarchies and taxonomies from Saint Thomas Aquinas and, you know, people historically. But, uh, that doesn't, that just has like a big, you know, kind of a lot of baggage attached to it. It has a connotation attached to it, but what does that actually mean? Would be my kind of challenge to those people. And then I would have a, a kind of equal and opposite challenge to the people who say that angels and demons definitely have nothing to do with the conversation.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  And the challenge there would be like, there's probably something, you know, the concept Lindy, like, which is, you know, um, how long an idea has survived is basically its kind of value to society. And it's also determines its expected future age. And so Plato and the Bible are probably more valuable than like, I don't know, the pet shop boys or something. You know, some like random contemporary thing that's just not that old. And so, uh, you know, you're seeing a thing, you know, angels and demons have existed for thousands of years. Uh, you know, they are these sort of, you know, they, they play tricks on you or whatever and they smell like sulfur. Like there are all these different like attributes of them.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  And some of the attributes seem to match up with some of these things. Like you talk to Jacques Vallée. He'll be like, yeah, like you, you want to get rid of this thing if, if, you know, you, if you're, you know, a, a constant experiencer or an abductee or whatever. Um, and he often talks about fallen angels himself.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  So I think there's this kind of two-pronged like, wait, like you can't just end the conversation on angels and demons for those people. And then they're like the, you know, super secular people who just want to like entirely throw that out. And I'm like, wait, that seems like an important possible overlay.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think the key thing here is, you know, we need to look at all the experiences from history. The moment you realize this phenomenon is real, the next question is how long has it been going on?

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  And then it turns out our entire history, all our mythology is mentioning references to these beings. We need to take it seriously from all religions, right? From all of these documented experiences, the pitfall comes when we cease to look at these experiences as like, okay, this, these people believed this. They had this experience. They documented it. We can take it relatively seriously. To these sixty-six books describe exactly what's going to happen in the future and none of the other holy texts out there do.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  And that's the lockdown where you either remain open to the data or you get locked in. And I think one of the issues we have is, is, is terminology, unfortunately, angels, demons. These are, I guess the Judeo-Christian thing is out of fashion now, but they're Judeo-Christian terms. And it may well be helpful for us to consider whether we try and rename those.

• 24:47Speaker 03

  Well, I think it would be fascinating to somehow find some common Joseph Campbell style underpinning between the religions where there's always some consciousness chain between man and God.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  And so you have the devas, you know, and in Hinduism you have, um, you know, the Jin and Islam. Like it's almost the exception to the rule to find a religion where there isn't consciousness between man and God. And so what, uh, normalizes between, you know, the descriptions of all of these beings across all these religions, I think would be a worthy inquiry.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  One hundred percent. Yeah, you could even just go back to angel Evangelion, which is just messenger.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  And that function of a messenger going out from this place to human beings with a message is exactly what, what these, these phenomenon tend to try and represent anyway. So there's useful terms you can connect very quickly with. The challenge we have is the moment you start to use those Christian terms again, people's ability to think clearly just switches off.

• 25:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  All people, but you know, it can happen.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Well, then you could just say it's like, it's, it's, these things are mythologies and in Christianity is, is a mythology, just like some of these other mythologies and, and then, and then Christian, but then Christianity, for whatever reason, seems to have this, you know, charismatic, very helpful effect for like more people, like it's scaled better than a lot of these other things. And then you have to ask why, and I don't know.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  You know, this is so interesting. I remember when I was losing my faith and I had to go and answer questions to the people who'd been teaching me about the world of Christianity.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cause let's back up for a sec, cause you have a very interesting just origin story. Do you want to tell that to people and then, and then get into this?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  It's a great day for me. I finally have an origin story. I feel amazing. Yeah. I mean, I, I became a Christian at the age of nineteen, uh, kind of out of nowhere. I mean, all the people who knew me growing up would never have imagined it would have happened. But it began to fall in place for a variety of personal reasons. You know, the way I was seeing the world was this is a very dark place where there's a lot of problems. Kind of like an eschatological stage for the Bible to step onto, you know, I began to see the world that way. And I was looking for spirituality. And unfortunately I looked at, you know, various other pathways, you know, sort of Buddhist and Eastern spirituality is pretty cool for someone of my age at that point.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  And I looked down those avenues and unfortunately every time I did, there was always a price associated with, you know, learning that information. So it kind of turned me off, but it doesn't mean that those things don't have value. It's just in that moment. But eventually I, I became quite despondent. I prayed, I said, you know, look, whoever you are, mysterious cosmic force, help me. Cause I can't seem to find the truth. Two weeks later, I watched a video about the Bible and, you know, despite wanting to treat it with scorn, I found myself enlightened by it. Very much like you're saying, right? There's, there's this charismatic effect that comes out of the Bible. And it is incredibly beautiful and particularly the Sermon on the Mount. You know, I, I read that and I found some of the things that Jesus was saying were so profound. And it not even like, the word profound makes it sound like I discovered some esoteric mystery.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  What was so wonderful about it is it was actually just common sense in terms of how you view people and their behavior. And, you know, what does it really mean to be good or to be evil? He sort of cuts through the conversation in a fresh way. And, uh, all the eschatological stuff that came with it about this deception and the end times. Because of the way I was thinking at the time, I was like, that makes sense. This seems beautiful. I met Christians who are wonderful people and I snapped in, you know? After a while you stop trying to rationalize whether you are going to believe in it. You start getting on with it. And as I did, I found it to be a, you know, an amazing experience. I was so invested in it. I was training to become a preacher, uh, for, for many years.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  And that was going full throttle until I was about to go and get full theological training. And for a church like the one I was in, the money involved in that is, it's a lot of money. And a very wise man called Viv Witten, I can see him in my mind's eye. He was a wonderful guy. And he said, you know, you should actually just pause here, take a year, go get a normal job. I'm twenty-five. All I've ever done at this point is like, be in this environment every single day of my life constantly. So I went and got a job in a call center, which was a real shock to the system. It really was, you know, like I was up in one of the most deprived towns in England in this call center, meeting the most wonderful people. But I just spent three years studying theology, philosophy and, you know, being in a Christian bubble. It was really weird. And I just began to lose.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Began to lose the grip of what I, what I thought I believed. And I spent a lot of time digging in and trying to figure out, can I really prove this to be true? You know, I, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, but I'm, I'm beginning to doubt that. How do I prove that? Cause I need a bedrock here and a epistemological foundation so that next time these doubts come, I can just deal with them because it was pretty shocking suddenly wondering whether I was going to continue. My whole life was in this space. And eventually, no matter how far I went in terms of proving the genuine historicity of large chunks of the Bible, knowing the incredible moral value it had brought to my life, I couldn't prove that I was in communication with God,

• 30:01Speaker 02

  that the Bible was literally inspired by God, or that Jesus had risen from the dead. I, I believe there's a mystery there about what happened with Jesus. I think he was an astonishing individual. And that kind of gets back to what I was going to say a moment ago, which is that I realized, of all the millions of amazing pieces of literature that have been written in our, in our human history, surely one of them's got to be the best.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  And you know, it may well be that at the very top of that stack, you've got, you know, the Plato's and the Gospels. And you know, these books that just, you know, you, you, you read the original dialogues with Socrates. You get a somewhat similar feeling that you get from some of the Gospels. When he talks about how wisdom starts with recognizing that you know, nothing, you know, that's, it, there's something there, there's, you can see some of it in Confucius, you can see it in the Gospels. It's, it's all kind of popping up at the same time in human history and it's all beautiful and impactful. So I kind of reached a point where that was that. And later on, entering UFO world, I, I found all of that to be very useful background. But now especially as things are accelerating with the discussion, you know,

• 31:09Speaker 02

  people are talking about UFOs more than they ever have. I don't know if you know this, but the UFO subreddit in 2017, when the New York Times article came out, it had 70,000 people on it. After that article, now it's 2026, there are four million people on that subreddit.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  It's wild. Okay. So I always say to people, it doesn't matter whether you believe this stuff or not. There's a wave coming of people having to engage with this because it's kind of like the cult thing, right? There's a subculture bubbling up here and people are beginning to engage with it and they don't have the answers or clarity they need. We do have these old religious frameworks. And what if we end up using those and kind of trapping ourselves in a framework about how we view it? Instead of letting us see whatever this unbelievable thing is.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  But then the meta view also is like, if you have this almost like social contagion around the thing, you almost have to be skeptical of that as well.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 32:02Speaker 03

  And like realize that quote unquote disclosure is just a personal process. It's just something that an individual goes through themselves. It's not some line in the sand, like it's actually some sort of seeding of one's uh, own spiritual authority to some other group to say that they can give you a bunch of documents. And then that, you know, that, that somehow provides meaning for you. Like what is it? Who cares?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 03

  And now on some level, like I, you know, I want it to happen because I think, you know, um, it'll move the Overton window. And you know, you'll have young people able to ask these questions, you know, these things can be taught in academic settings. All of those things would be amazing second order effects of Trump releasing documents. But the idea that that's somehow going to like, give, uh, you know, somebody meaning in their life is insane.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  And that's sort of like some people's orientation towards the thing.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, 100%. Yeah, there's this fixation on the information we don't have and the injustice that we haven't received it. So we've become convinced that as long as I can get that information out, everything's going to be solved.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  It's so funny and it's so funny to see like, like some government official who's clearly, doesn't even think about UFOs will make some offhand remark about some, you know, a hybrid breeding program or like a certain base where they saw a thing. And you'll see somebody on Twitter and they're like, is this disclosed? Did we just get it?

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  And it's like, are you following sports? Like, what are you doing? Like, who cares?

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  Who, that person doesn't know anything. They're doing the thing because of their own cynical, you know, motivation. They want to distract from a thing or they, it's opportunistic or whatever. So just, you know, again, I think there are second order kind of knock on effects that are positive.

• 33:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  And so maybe you should view it through that lens, but if you're like really pumped about it personally, like maybe you should think twice or something, you know, it's like, who cares?

• 33:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. It brings me back to Tom DeLonge, when he met Neil McCasland.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  And after that initial phone call, I think Neil McCasland had said, you know, I'm worried that you might find a group of people stumbling around an elephant, right? Sort of feeling out like, I think it's.

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Blind men touching different parts of an elephant.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. They think it's all different things because no one even has the full picture.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  So it might well be that even if we got full disclosure, we're going to be deeply unsatisfied with the, with the information that we receive.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  I think that's right. And yeah, exactly. There's nothing to disclose because the government, they might have an asymmetric, an asymmetric data set, but they don't have some, you know, monopoly on, you know, how the world works. That's just, or metaphysics or something. Um, you just mentioned two very interesting names that we should give, you know, maybe a broader audience who's not mired in UFO world, a little context on.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  Neil McCasland, uh, is a, a general who ran the lab where the Roswell wreckage was rumored to have been taken at Wright Patterson. And he ran the, the, the Air Force Research Laboratory. And then Tom DeLonge is the Blink 182 front man.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Who would have thought those two things would go together?

• 35:00Speaker 03

  How did they come together? What, give me, give us the context.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Oh man. Yeah. This is the whole story that, that got me like into this in a big way. Uh, because it sounds preposterous. And every time I try and, you know, recently one of my best friends, he's getting into this topic and he's like, I've got this long drive coming up. Can you suggest some podcasts? And I was like, you gotta listen to the Tom DeLonge thing. And he's, you know, I can tell in his mind, he's like, what are you on about? Seriously? But the story is, is kind of unbelievable. I mean, essentially DeLonge, I think had become deeply interested in this from a very young age. There's, there's video footage of him talking about this. You know, you're, you're kind of wondering if he's even started Blink 182 at this point. Uh, so he was fascinated and at some point in 2013, he started to build this kind of project

• 35:44Speaker 02

  about how he would integrate music, media, and try and use it to communicate bigger stuff. I think it's a natural consequence of being in a band for so long and wanting to find better meaning and being interested in a topic. Um, at some point he began to make connections and meet people, you know? And I think that actually happened relatively early. Neil McCasland and, and the people that come later, that's 2015, 2016. But Pete Lavenda, who was someone who worked closely with DeLonge, he said, by the time he joined, which was November 2014, there were already 10 advisors. So DeLonge already had accumulated a group of people who are advising him on stuff anyway, before this group of people that we tend to focus on.

• 36:25Speaker 02

  How it happened, um, it's, it's a question of whether you believe the stories that, that came out about it or not. But Vallée, Jacques Vallée validates the original, original story, which is that DeLonge had made contact with someone who worked at Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. And that individual had said, look, would you come and sort of be the MC for this special day we're having, where it's like a big family event? And he said, yes, as long as I can speak to the individual who, who runs the show, right? And get a chance to sit down. And I think DeLonge, I, I come from a, a sales background as well as a religious one, which arguably could be said to be the same thing. Um, but he's, uh, he's one of the best salespeople you'll ever come across. Cause what he did is he took his unbelievable fascination in the UFO topic.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  And he clearly had asked the question, what is it that these people really want, right? DeLonge could have gone in there and said, I want the answers and become adversarial and try to squeeze it out. But I think he was very aware that not all people who work in the government are fundamentally evil. There are lots of people who are moms and dads who find themselves working for these aerospace companies, who may be dealing with really complicated stuff and are busy trying to achieve those objectives. And meanwhile, people's perception of them is plummeting because they're unable to communicate clearly about what's going on. I think that's a real situation. So he went in there and basically said, look, um, how can we help communicate things in a way that doesn't touch on classified data, helps people understand some of the big concepts around this stuff?

• 37:53Speaker 02

  And I think they were uneasy at first, but then he sent this individual, um, a piece of content that the vendor had written. And it was all around cargo cults. And the idea being that there were these, uh, gosh, I didn't even know geographically where this happened, but there was some sort of tribe and remote area.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  And French Polynesia.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  French Polynesia, there you go. And they could see these planes landing and, uh, you know, dropping off all this cargo and like stuff, food, resources. Um, and there was this kind of, you know, flight tower and all of these lights and everything. And in their mind, their response was like, if we can replicate what we're seeing, so we make the tower out of trees and, you know, put these lights here, maybe we'll also get the thing to land. And that happened, that's documented, which is hugely interesting in terms of, you know, how we perceive many things that were constructed a long time ago. And how we might perceive the origins of our various religious establishments. Um, so that suddenly got these people interested.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  They were like, oh, you have a much more sophisticated view on this than the government's hiding aliens. You're trying to understand the history of human engagement with potentially a phenomena, which has been here for a long time. A bunch of meetings start, so he's flown out to the Pentagon where he meets with someone. And they say, okay, now you're going to NASA where he meets with some people. I think arguably you could say maybe Pete Warden, who's a one-star NASA general may have been there. Um, and there's someone else as well who I, I forget their name. But then eventually it leads out towards this, this area, sort of California. He's meeting with, uh, I think General Mike Carey was one of the individuals who eventually introduced him to General William Neil McCasland. Um, so by this point, he's accrued multiple advisors.

• 39:35Speaker 02

  Uh, what happens is at this time, he's giving all these podcasts. And the first time I heard these podcasts, I was like, it's no way this could be true. He was saying, I have met the people who are managing the UFO thing. They've started to speak to me, the front man from Blink 182. And they're telling me all of these things. Okay. And you can tell he's really excited, but he's also a little bit nervous. And it's really interesting because it's one of these things where you listen to it and on paper, it doesn't make any sense. No rational person would believe that can happen. But his enthusiasm was really hard to ignore. You know, there's an intuition you can have listening to someone where you think, well, Maybe you're just deluded, but you definitely believe this. Anyway, fast forward to the 2016 elections.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  And, you know, if you look back at it now, and I've documented this as thoroughly as I can, Podesta and Clinton were talking a lot about UFOs. And people say like, you know, oh, they were just talking about it because they were trying to get votes. And it's like, are you kidding me? There's a guy called Dennis Kucinich, who was in a 2010 election, I think. The moment his name became associated with UFOs, this was a former Democratic candidate for the presidency. In a debate stage, he was pretty much laughed offstage and his candidacy plummeted. Okay, so it had been proven in Democratic circles. Associating yourself with the UFO topic is, uh, is not a good thing. So Clinton and Podesta are talking about UFOs, which is very strange. Podesta's emails get hacked, obviously, and in those emails,

• 41:03Speaker 02

  you find a correspondence, I think there were 35 emails back and forth between Tom DeLonge and Podesta's team. There's that meeting where you've got General Neil McCaslin and Michael Carey and Robert Weiss, the president of the Skunk Works, along with Podesta and DeLonge.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  And Podesta is Clinton's chief of staff.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  That's right. Yeah, so he's, he's, he's running that. And, uh, you know, along with that, there's a really interesting moment in the emails where one of the staffers, this is also interesting because the staffers seem to understand there's a UFO conversation going on. A lot of these people are connected to the Center for American Progress, which is Podesta's sort of big liberal think tank in DC. And at one point, there's an individual mentioned, and one of the staffers said, John, maybe we should consider this individual for the UFO project. And you're like, okay, so obviously this staffer and all the other people on the email, including Podesta, and this is mid 2015, I think, already have a UFO project? We're like far away from the election at this point.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  And, uh, anyway, it turns out Tom DeLonge's been in there connecting with Podesta with all these people. And these conversations really were going on, which was then further validated by Jacques Vallée, someone who has huge questions about that whole thing, by the way. He's a big skepticism about what they were trying to achieve. You read his journals, it absolutely did happen. Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Well, what do you think they were trying to achieve? Because I think the, for me, I know there's a there there underneath the UFO question. Like, I know there's something worthy of inquiry scientifically there. And then I think the meta sociological question that a lot of people who are mired in UFOs right now don't tend to ask is, why have we seen this just ridiculous resurgence in popularity? Why is the subreddit of UFOs grown from a few hundred thousand to, you know, four million over the course of 10 years? And is that being pushed? Is there some sort of engineered on high UFO disclosure thing happening right now? And, and, and what would be the motivation for that?

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Because you said, you know, you're like, could this guy be the guy for the UFO project? And by the way, I have personally very little doubt of Tom DeLonge's sincerity and his intelligence. And actually, a long interest and his standing interest in organically in the topic. And I think he kind of vigilante, like, you know, made a lot of this stuff happen. But it also seems like there was a confluence between that organic interest on his part. And then like people in the government wanting to do something on UFOs? Do you think that was just this stuff has been, you know, we've had this low energy Cold War orientation towards this thing? We've kept it secret for too long. People deserve to know, or do you think it was a little more cynical than that?

• 43:52Speaker 03

  Do you have a take there?

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do. Yeah, I really do. I, I think, um, in terms of the timing, Jacques Vallée's most recent journals are very interesting. I, you know, I was digging into DeLonge as my first foyer into this topic in a serious way. Because I was like, if I can prove that this is legitimate, then I can, you know, sit on top of this and say, there seems to be a there there. And, uh, I'd always been trying to figure out, when did the thing really start? Where did this come from? You get to Vallée's most recent journals. He documents early in 2013 rumors coming out of the White House. And, uh, these rumors are essentially saying they're planning to do something called confirmation, not disclosure. Okay, so there's some sort of distinction there in terms of like, we're not going to go all the way with trying to

• 44:36Speaker 02

  reveal all the awful things, but we want to get some information out there. And, uh, you know, what's interesting about the timing of that is simultaneously, as these rumors start to appear in the journals, Vallée and his colleagues are talking about this idea that there might be something coming, that there's something on its way and that it could potentially be concerning or harmful. There's this urgency, and these are the ORSAP scientists, by the way. So these were people who worked in the government on a big program that was funded through DIA using Bigelow Aerospace, investigating the phenomenon. And the, the ORSAP program looked at 260,000 different cases with seven levels of analysis. It's probably the biggest study of UFO data ever. And one of the conclusions that Vallée hints at two or three times in the journals

• 45:21Speaker 02

  is that, you know, an existential threat may have been detected. And what that is, he doesn't go any deeper into it. I don't know if it's because he doesn't want to or he can't.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  And it doesn't mean we have to believe that, by the way, but, you know, it's very interesting that Vallée, who is, I think, generally quite skeptical about, you know, the modern disclosure movement, which has involved claims that something's coming, releases his journals in a way that validates this. And he would have had time to remove that if he, if he changed his mind about, you know, all of that. So in terms of that, I think there is some urgency, whatever that is. Okay, I don't know what it, I made a whole video about like 20 different explanations it could be. But then, that then leads to the Obama administration basically saying, look, we need to try and get information out in some degree. I think those two things could be connected. But I think DeLonge was already in the orbit of those conversations.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Because he'd been on coast to coast with George Knapp, 2011. And he's one of the biggest celebrities they'd had on there who was talking about doing things for disclosure. He's in that orbit. The ORSAP scientists received these rumors about stuff coming out of the White House. And then you've got George Knapp, who's in that orbit, who's connected to DeLonge. I don't think it's out of the question, he may have heard like, now's a pretty good time for the project you're doing. Like 2013 kind of time. So I, I think there's a, there's a genuine reason, there's all of this. With, with DeLonge maybe already knowing and that driving him to be quite so as ambitious as he was. But I also think there's another dynamic here, which funnily enough connects back to the Collins elite thing.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Which is that, you know, there have been presidents who have been on the inside of the UFO information, at least it seems that way. The research I've done recently, Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Bush, all seem to have received briefings. The moment you get to Clinton, I think it's pretty demonstrable, he didn't. And he had to fight to try and get information and he, he used all of his resources and still couldn't get what he wanted. And, um, you know, I wonder whether Obama may have had a somewhat similar experience. I don't know, but, you know, Ross Coulthard recently came out and talked about how there sometimes seems to be a contrast between Republican presidents getting information and Democrat presidents not. You don't have to take everything Ross Coulthard says as gospel, right? But it's an interesting thought experiment.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Why might that be the case? Why is it that the UFO data may be dangerous in the hands of people who are outsiders? Okay, so Clinton and Obama coming into office really weren't connected to the establishment of the United States. They really were in many ways outsiders who'd started to move inside, you know. Clinton attended a Bilderberg meeting once before he was elected, so that's fine. But that's very different to Reagan, to Nixon, and to all of these, the Bush family.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  I don't know. I would, I think of Nixon as kind of an outsider.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Really?

• 48:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, from Whittier, California, oh, yeah, a chip on his shoulder, was wanting to do force reduction in the CIA. He was always against him.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  Really?

• 48:19Speaker 03

  And was ousted, I think, in a very artificial way.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting. Okay.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Reagan, I could see a little bit more, George H W Bush, for sure, insider, no doubt about that. The Clinton thing's really interesting because he was interested in UFOs, I believe. And I think he spoke with Ron Pandolfi, who is, you gotta talk, a very interesting guy. Uh, who is, I think, head of the CIA's Weird Desk. And Ron Pandolfi told Clinton he should get briefed by a guy named Bruce McCabie.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  Who'd written about a book about UFOs and the FBI was a longtime civilian researcher. And so what's interesting about that dynamic is you're getting a guy in the open source world to brief a president on UFOs. Uh, which is very strange.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is very strange. Yeah, that's one of the most, I mean, it was one of the reasons I ended up looking into Pandolfi in a big way, was I was mystified by the president of the United States is trying to get UFO information. I mean, if you really look at the Clinton story, he really is.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Like, he uses all of his different people, every angle to go and investigate this.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  And Lawrence Rockefeller, uh, is very close with the Clintons and trying to get them to do disclosure, get them more interested constantly. And yeah, that was a thing.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Huge initiative there, and most people don't even realize that this is like history, you know, it's documented.

• 49:39Speaker 03

  There's a photo of Hillary Clinton, and I think she's at Camp David and she's holding a book. And it's a book by, uh, University of Arizona physicist, Paul Davies. And the book is titled, Are We Alone?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  Clearly exploring this stuff.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was interested early, I think. And there's, uh, there's evidence during the original Clinton administration, she might have been trying to open doors as well. But in terms of the Pandolfi thing, essentially Clinton's science advisor is trying to get a briefing. And what happens is that goes to the place in the CIA where there is UFO information. It's called the Weird Desk. It's a, it's a colloquial term for a function which has moved around many times. And, uh, at that point, a guy called Dr. Ronald Pandolfi was, was running the Weird Desk. And, um, so Bruce McCabie relays the story, like you said, he's this Navy physicist, incredibly bright guy, who's obviously done phenomenal research. And he gets a call from Pandolfi, basically saying, look, I need you to go in and give, give the lecture you gave to the CIA once.

• 50:39Speaker 02

  I want you to give it to, uh, the science advisor. And he's like, uh, well, I need time to prepare and make sure I've got all of this. And he's like, thinking, maybe I've got two weeks to get everything together. And he's like, it's tomorrow, eight in the morning. And so Clinton's science advisor doesn't even get the CIA guy on UFOs to come in. He sends not even one of his like lower people, a civilian researcher in with almost no time to prepare. And there's a guy called William Lepal, who I think had closer interactions with Pandolfi at this time. And he suggested that, you know, really, they just wanted to push this away. They didn't want to have to confront what was going on with Clinton. To me, I see a pattern there, which is the former few administrations had been actually stuffed full of quite religious people.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Some of these Collins elite types figures, we talked about the family, there's also the Knights of Malta. And they're connected to a broader establishment that goes back to the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services in World War II. There's a thread through all of those administrations of a similar milieu of people. You got Clinton comes in, he's just this, this guy, you know? And he wants the information and it's shut down by Dr. Pandolfi, who by the way, his uncle Louis Pandolfi was a founding member of the OSS.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Really?

• 51:49Speaker 02

  Well, according to Jack Sarfati. So, you know, take, take the information as you please. But there was an interview with Danny Jones where he kind of goes off on talking about Pandolfi in detail. And that was, uh, yeah, it's very interesting.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  So anyway, that, that fascinated me because if there's an individual who can basically say no to the president, who is he? And, uh, you know, he appears everywhere in UFO lore and he's a, he's an interesting guy.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  It's fascinating. Yeah. And then you have Obama and who knows to what extent Obama was actually briefed on the subject. But he seems interested. I mean, he's producing this Betty and Barney Hill documentary.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  He, you know, it seems like a slow dripping out information about UFOs and testing the waters. Where I think on James Corden, he goes, there are things in our sky that, you know, we can't identify and we don't know what they are. And then, yeah, you know, in this recent podcast, he sort of provoked Trump in many ways and said, you know, it's not like they're, you know, aliens are real. But like, how do you know that, sir? You know, the, the interviewer never followed up on that. But he said they are real, which again, I don't know what he's going off of there. And then he goes on to talk about, you know, area 51 and how that, you know, that's a myth. The, the idea that we have them like, you know, chained up in the basement or whatever.

• 53:09Speaker 02

  What's so interesting about that is Clinton said exactly the same thing. What a weird thing to zero in on. They both said, yeah, there's nothing underground under area 51. It's like, if I'm asked about UFOs, there's a thousand things I could mention in the 30 second snippet I'm going to give you. Why?

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Thou doth protest too much. Yeah. So strange. And then afterwards, it was so clearly, uh, this litmus test. It was like this, like, so let's see how the public reacts. Because he then walked it back and was like, you know, really, I, you know, I don't, I don't know anything you don't know. You know, I just think that it was like, you know, some Fermi paradox thing, given the amount of, you know, solar systems, you know, there's the likelihood or whatever.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  General.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  And that to me spells the fact that like, he phrased it the way he did deliberately to begin with. The whole thing was staged with this very friendly, you know, very left wing interviewer, uh, who, who, who loved Obama. So, and it was this rapid fire questioning thing and the guy just like moved on after that.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  All those questions are always planned.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, they totally.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  So like what, and then by the way, Obama's CIA director, uh, you know, Brennan and his, uh, Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper are showing up in a movie. And they are tacitly endorsing the idea that not only have we, you know, are UFOs real.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  But we've had tracking programs at area 51, which James Clapper personally talked about, helped set up.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 03

  And then, uh, are tacitly endorsing the idea that we've had a legacy program doing crash retrieval operations and, you know, uh, reverse engineering for decades. Multi generational.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  So, yeah. Do you think maybe Obama knows a thing or two about this whole thing?

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Did you see the John Greenwald thing where he filed a FOIA and he got information back, which indicated, I can't remember if it's 3,000 or 30, I think it might've been 30,000 references in Obama's documents in his presidency. To like UFOs, UAP, OSAP, ATIP, et cetera, like all those things. So, you know, if you count that in a video I did, I tried to figure out how many references you'd need every day of his administration to make that number. I mean, it seems as though there was a dialogue going on based on those figures. And then you also have, um, Podesta and Clinton working at the administration at different points. And then like Valet says, whispers coming out of the White House. So what we see with Hillary Clinton and John Podesta in 2016, their weird behavior absolutely must track back to, to his Oval Office and his administration.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  This brings up some really important questions around what exists as far as UFO programs. Because the things that are talked about openly at this point are in that 2017 New York Times article. They're what Obama was, you know, talking about and investigating. It's what Harry Reid set up from 2007 to 2012, this OSAP program, which then turned into sort of this ATIP overhang program, which seemed a lot slimmer. Unclear what was going on there. But, uh, those, those are discussed constantly as like, we have real UFO programs. So that, you know, Kona Blue and this idea that we were transferring assets between Lockheed Martin, who had UFO material to Bigelow Aerospace.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  But the budgets associated with these programs are on the order of, you know, it's 20, we're talking about $22 million. A single F-35 fighter jet is $85 million. A B2 stealth bomber is over a billion dollars, a single B2 stealth bomber. So you're telling me that we have, uh, uh, you know, hulls of a craft that we can fly, could go warp speed. Maybe we can even, you know, uh, uh, drop payloads with these things, which is so dystopian to even think about. But like, if you're thinking with a military industrial complex hat on, you have to think that. And you're putting, you're putting $22 million against that, the, the reverse engineering of that makes zero sense.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 03

  So then you have this idea of like, what David Grush may or may not have bumped into this, like this legacy program, this like, you know, probably hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars. Going into actually reverse engineering this stuff. And then what's so weird is like the, you know, you do have people coming out here and there saying, I saw a thing and I think, but you only have one Bob Lazar. A guy who actually, you know, at S4 in 1989 said he worked on the craft itself. So you have this like perfectly locked down program that somehow has absurd, you know, a, a budget, you know, line items attached to it. And it breaks your brain because you're like, what is going on?

• 57:45Speaker 03

  Do you have a base case of what is going on inside the government here?

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• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Oh my God, I have no idea.

• 1:01:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  No, I mean, it's, it's a total mystery what's really going on. There's so much disinformation as well, which makes it impossible to navigate all of this. So, uh, once you get beyond the data that, that you can see that you've just listed, I mean, what can you say? I, I think it's. There are plenty of people who've come out and said that we have craft. It seems to be just sinking into our collective consciousness at this point that we've got some things and we've been trying to figure out what they are, but we haven't necessarily got that far. Some people say that we have. That's about as far as we get, you know, before the information starts to run dry. So I, I, I, um, I'm definitely convinced there's something there. Definitely. But in terms of things I could be high confidence about, they're very limited.

• 1:02:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I feel the same way. I, I have, uh, you know, uh, you know, my editors here with me and we, we both went to Aztec, New Mexico to investigate the crash there.

• 1:02:24Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 1:02:25Speaker 03

  And I can't speak for him, but I, I came out, you know, kind of skeptical. I came in skeptical and I came out pretty sure that there was a crash there. Cause I, I, I really, for a long time being into UFO stuff, I thought, you know, there was a conflation maybe going on between kind of some anti-gravity lineage of, you know, some exotic propulsion that maybe, uh, was created in Nazi Germany or, you know, maybe World War Two. And then, you know, you develop it or whatever, and then you conflate it with these alien things and like, and maybe that is going on. I don't know.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 03

  But, uh, you know, I wasn't sure about the crashes and I wasn't sure about a reverse engineering, you know, program. And after investigating a few of these crashes, I think the crashes are just real. And then, and then, so if the crashes were then, you know, if, if there's US Air Force and CIA involvement, which like there always seems to be, as in the case of our Genia, even in Brazil. Then like, there has to be reverse engineering going on of those pieces.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  And then the weird thing is you have Jim Lekatsky coming out, you know, who is, is DIA rocket scientist involved in ASAP. And he's now writing about this stuff and he writes about it like it's some platonic puzzle. Like it's more of like a mystical object than it is something you'd ever even put throw physicists against. And you have the idea, you know, Eric Davis saying there were no physicists on the program.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  So maybe like the idea that there are crash retrievals, which is, you know, at this point that that's like sort of passe in these sort of circles. I mean, age of disclosure, discussing this stuff openly. So then you have to ask like, what is the underlying thing? Well, if, if that's the tip of the iceberg, the underlying thing has to be much weirder than that. And so I, I get into like, okay, maybe these are like mystical, maybe these are objects that are far stranger than like physics and engineering could ever, you know, explain. But I don't, I don't know.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Do you think that they're part of a large system? Like, like, uh, maybe the majority of what we interact with is part of a single system, which is kind of artificial intelligence.

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  I, I, I don't know, but I guess, yeah, I'm sympathetic to ideas like that, that we're in some sort of control system or something. And, uh, these might be von Neumann replicator envoys or something of some like larger intelligence. So they're, they are just like the tip of the spear and even gray aliens, which seem to have this very robotic droid-like kind of mandate where they show up and think, do not fear, do not fear. And then they insert the thing and they kind of subdue you or whatever. Like all of that feels somewhat automated.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  And if there are crashes, you say, oh, why are they so, why would they fly from light years away just to crash or whatever? They're so advanced. Well, maybe this is just their earth homeostasis kit. And maybe they're, you know, kind of disposable. So I, I am sympathetic to ideas like that. But then we, even the Vale stuff, as much, I think he's this like incredible godfather and he shifts your perspective in this super healthy way. But he is so limited. He's so limited. I mean, it's like, what does that mean? AI system, AI control system. It uses intermittent reinforcement, maybe because that was the in vogue psychology at the time. Who the knows? Who knows? I don't know.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  So what do you think?

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I think at the very least we should focus there because he, 260,000 cases, like I said, the Capella database that he made. And the levels of analysis that he did. Yeah, you're right. I mean, what he's, what he's sharing is very limited. I wonder what else is under there and we should be focusing our attention there.

• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  The fact that this database exists with that level of analysis. And we're all out here, the other day, uh, Anna Paulina Luna, who's done phenomenal stuff for this progress, this conversation. You know, she tweeted out, read the book of Enoch. And I'm thinking, I'm just like, no, this isn't where we need to start. We've got to start with the data and what it says. And the book of Enoch should be one of the cases in the database, not, not how we interpret it.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  So I, I do think, even though what he's saying may be somewhat cryptic, our focus should be on that huge source of data and what's under there. And maybe some of it is very woo. Maybe there's some consistency to the woo. Maybe, maybe the woo is constantly a reflection of who we are and the consciousness that we bring to it. Which is another thing that Vale talks about actually is this idea that the UFO isn't designed to carry beings from place A to place B, but it's designed to interface with our mind and to take the imagery we have in here and to kind of like a dream, right? You know, you see everything throughout your day. You have these experiences. You go to sleep and you mix the experience you just had with your deep subconscious thought into this whole new thing. That function exists and billions of people use it every single night.

• 1:07:12Speaker 02

  What if the UFO does that? And so when we interact with it, we're engaging with the weird robotic beings and the system, which kind of seems weird. But with the right person, it can get in here and change the way you perceive it completely.

• 1:07:24Speaker 03

  Well, I think, I think that is the case. But then you, again, you have to employ this radical Cartesian doubt of like, what is it intending to do to you? And if it can do that in the form of an experience, it could do that in the form of a data set that it's manufacturing itself as well. So science is really well set up to study lower level biological systems. You know, like I, I can study an ant or, you know, or just inanimate material very easily. But like, if, if I am the ant on the arm of a human being and you're using your own version of science as the ant, like, you know, if we're just like, you know, when we're, you have these summoning programs of UFOs, like Skywatcher is this kind of modern version of this or whatever.

• 1:08:07Speaker 03

  But it seems like we've been doing this kind of in, you know, special access programs for a while. Like we're just, what if we're just like raccoons chewing on the power cables? And then the humans show up and they go, stop chewing on those power cables or whatever. And then they shut down your sensors. And then you're like, but like, how will the raccoons ever understand what the humans want or why they're showing up when you do a thing? When they do a little nuclear baiting or whatever.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 03

  You know? So it's the, you, you end up with these like really hard epistemic impasses.

• 1:08:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:38Speaker 03

  You know? And then, and then, and then the meta, meta thing would be the brain scrambling of the data that you're receiving. And of these programs that like happens in the individual allows you to grow. And then that growing allows you to make like a better connection. Your interface and your processing and your measurement system gets better. And then you get to interface more in a way that like actually is comprehensible to you.

• 1:09:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  With these beings. But I don't know. I, it's, it's very complicated.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  It brings me back to what you said earlier about this idea. What if the purpose isn't to have disclosure, but instead to have some sort of personal evolution experience through interacting with these things? Because then you would understand the system would make your science futile. It would make it impossible for you to get this big objective theory, which we all want because of the way we currently operate as a society. What if the next stage of human evolution isn't about that kind of mindset about how we approach things? So I'm, you know, it's a big theory, but it's interesting to consider whether or not it's attempting to force us away from our traditional analyses.

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  I think it is. I think the observer observed dichotomy is breaking down. I think the idea of, um, you know, yeah, like you said, sort of some objective theory of everything is breaking out. Like you're going to see like a sort of maybe not infinite, but somewhat fracturing of reality and theories when it comes to this stuff. I think it breaks our prior epistemic. I think it's an epistemological revolution. It's not a scientific revolution.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  So it's like, it's deeper than just like, you know, oh, quantum physics. I think it's, I think it's more than that.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you think about the? Human technology angle. You kind of touched on it there with the anti-gravity stuff from the Nazis. And how it makes, I think one of the things people already struggle with is trying to grapple with, can both of those things be true? Can we be engaging with this huge phenomenon whilst also human beings may have created technology that could imitate it? Which that's again, something that Fale talks about, which is very, very interesting.

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, in, in secret machines and, you know, Tom DeLonge's book talks about this as well. Human craft that is derivative of, and even if you talk to Bob Lazar and you go deep enough with him, it's not really reverse engineering. It's like parallel engineering. It's not figuring out exactly how the thing was made. It's figuring out how to recreate the thing with prosaic human means. And so then you have to ask, was the thing dropped or donated as a gift or something to accelerate human evolution or, you know, to create science that was, that is derivative of or inspired by the thing. And, you know, for that, you have to go off of kind of, you know, read the tea leaves on

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  people like Philip Corso, or, you know, I'm obsessed with, you know, Thomas Townsend Brown and his anti-gravity research. And it seems like he was inspired by quote unquote, space brothers. He actually engaged in a crash retrieval operation in nineteen-

• 1:11:35Speaker 02

  Townsend Brown did?

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:11:37Speaker 03

  In nineteen fifty-eight in Hartford, Connecticut, that Michael Swords documents. Fascinating. Yeah. And then he goes to Moon Watch, Project Moon Watch, which was this satellite viewing operation. They were tied in actually with Blue Book at the time. And Robert Friend and J. Allen Hynek have a piece of this crash at Hartford, Connecticut. And Townsend Brown flashes his credentials. I think he was very spooky. And he was like, I'm, I'm taking this material. So it's really crazy because I, you assume that-

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  It was that, that he was able to do that?

• 1:12:08Speaker 03

  Fifty-eight. So you assume that Townsend Brown is an explanation or, you know, away from, it's, it's a rationalization of why we're seeing these things in the sky because it's just deep black military SR seventy-one, modern equivalent, easy option. And then you get into Townsend Brown's life and it's like, no, he's claimed he was like, kind of communicating with aliens half the time, like Agnew Bonson, who was funding him was really trippy and seemed like he was in contact with stuff. So it's against, it's a very complicated sort of, you end up always with a yes and sort of answer, you know?

• 1:12:40Speaker 02

  And even going back to the Nazis, right, where people like to say they were the ones who generated this technology, but you documented in one of your videos, who was the individual who said that we had help from, what was his name?

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Herman Oberth.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:53Speaker 03

  So Herman Oberth is the godfather of, you know, German rocketry and Wernher Von Braun's mentor. And there's even a, a audio of him talking about UFOs and he said he, they were aided and had help. And I was just in Japan, actually, and there's a guy named Takano Joson. And he met Herman Oberth and they discussed UFOs openly. And so, yeah, he was very interested in UFOs. Did he say anything else about UFOs?

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Dr. Oberth.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  But Dr. Oberth truly respected the beings actually riding in UFOs.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  It's really just wild. And you, you did an amazing video on Nazi UFO-like technology as well. And you talk about Richard Mita and you want to talk about that?

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, all those different stories from the Nazi era, very, very interesting. And it's one of these cases where it's very hard to say that there's no smoke without fire. I can't remember all the names. You've got Mita, Schreiber, Malutso. There's like four or five other individuals who all claimed to have worked on what appeared to be multiple different attempts to build disc-shaped craft. And with, with varying degrees of success, I think we often end up in an either or about the Nazis and the technology. And they say, well, if they developed it, why didn't they use it during the war? Therefore it can't have happened. Whereas I think a middle ground is more interesting that they are experimenting with making these, for whatever reason, we can get into that later, why they may have been inspired. And some of them may have been somewhat interesting and half

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  successful by the time the war was closing out.

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  It's fascinating. The video you made is amazing. And it shows, you know, Mita in fifty-two gives this interview to this French paper. And he says, if you see UFOs in the sky, they're probably the ones that I designed and were built by, you know, the Habermar project and, you know, Skoda Works under Hans Kommler. And you have Rudolf Schreiber and I think, you know, saying that in nineteen forty-four, we finally flew this craft and it rose to, you know, forty thousand feet in a few minutes. And I think you even have an apocryphal story where Paul Mellon, who's one of, you know, founders of the CIA, his grandson is a guy named John Warner the fourth.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Speaker 03

  And he talks about, he said he was on his third martini with Paul Mellon. And Paul Mellon tells him that he and Alan Dulles were on this like, you know, tech retrieval operation deep in, you know, post-World War II, you know, Nazi Germany, or maybe it was like forty-four, forty-five. And they're saying that they're standing atop this huge saucer-like UFO, in Czechoslovakia, by the way, which is Pilzen, which is where Skoda Works took place. And you talk about in this video, which is an amazing video, everybody should watch it. For whatever reason, the US was less interested in Berlin than they were in going to Pilzen, which is where this secret weapons program was housed for Nazi Germany.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  I think what's really fascinating is there was this rush, obviously, at the end of the war. And you see General Patton's army arrive and they steamroll, like you said, to Pilzen before going to Berlin, which is very interesting. What's more fascinating to me is the fact that nearly a year earlier, the Nazis had planned to get out of Europe and to take all of their sensitive stuff. So we go in there, we pick up like the Horton Brothers thing. And who was the guy who made the reverse impeller?

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  Victor Schauberger.

• 1:16:20Speaker 02

  Schauberger, I always forget his name, right? We got some Schauberger stuff. And there's this idea that the Soviets got maybe more than they should have got. And we got what we got and we divided up the spoils. But in reality, there may have been a third part to this, which is the mass evacuation of technology and people and gold and money, starting in, well, nineteen forty-three, but certainly nineteen forty-four with the Maison Rouge meeting. I think that is really, really important. And actually this ties into, in DeLonge's fiction book, Secret Machines, he talks about the Maynard Consortium. For those who don't know, DeLonge co-authored some fiction books with A.J. Hartley. And the, the idea was, can we tell some really sensitive stuff about history and obscure it as fiction?

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Jim Semivan, who was one of the advisors for To the Stars Academy, and I think he's a senior executive service, like just two people under the CIA director when he was working there. So very, very senior. And he says, that book's very, very interesting. And I can't remember who it was he was being interviewed by, maybe James Iandoli said, can you tell us what it is that's interesting about the book? And he says, no, I'm not going to tell you. But if you read it, the Maynard Consortium is very interesting because it's this private organization, which seems to have a handle, not simply on the UFO issue, but a huge amount of power geopolitically as well. A lot of people have been trying to figure out what the Maynard Consortium is. I think I have an answer, by the way, which I can share. And it ties into what happened at the end of the war. So you, you want to go in for a long one on this?

• 1:17:47Speaker 03

  I want to hear, because I, that, that's come up a bunch for me and I'm fascinated by it. And I do think Secret Machines, I hit a lot of truth and fiction. And it was inspired by conversations with General Neil McCaslin, who by the way, is now missing, which is crazy. He went missing, you know, from his home in New Mexico and-

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Days after Trump announced that there was going to be some sort of disclosure.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  UFO disclosure. And you have a guy who is the sole source, or not the sole source, one of the few sources for kind of modern disclosure and a lot of, you know, what came out of, you know, Tom DeLonge's work. And, you know, he's this really high up general. And if, if you wanted disclosure and you were part of the current admin, you'd immediately hit him up. And then he's just like, you know, missing without a trace in a super sophisticated way, leaves his phone behind, everything that you could use to track him, you know, is, is just, you know, left behind. And he takes a gun. Very strange.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  It's very strange.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  Um, but in Secret Machines, Tom DeLonge's book, he writes about the Maynard Consortium. And it's this like, Ben Rich also, who is the, you know, Skunk Works guy, you know, in the, in the nineties, president of Skunk Works, who is responsible for, you know, the, the SR seventy-one and, or sorry, he was responsible for modern stealth aircraft. He writes about an international corporate board of directors that deals with the UFO issue.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:19:15Speaker 03

  And then Townsend Brown also runs into this sort of, you know, the Caroline Group, this international group of industrialists that seem to suck up all of the exotic tech.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  And so, and then you have Secret Machines, the Maynard Consortium, which is described very similarly to those two things. So what is the Maynard Consortium?

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, I think, I think there's a business that fits the description really well, which we don't talk about very much. But to kind of build the picture of this, I'll, I'll give you a bit of a backdrop. So let's go back to the Maison Rouge meeting. Okay? So this is nineteen forty-four, I think, August tenth, sometime around there. The Nazis know they're going to lose the war. So at this point, I think they've, they've had the D-Day invasions, there's been Stalingrad, it's not going well. So Martin Bormann assembles all the leaders of industry into this meeting in Paris, very secret meeting. They sweep the rooms to make sure no one can hear what they're going to talk about. And basically plan the mass evacuation of German industry, technology, people. And based on documentation that Peter Levendis seen, they were successful. So there's a State Department document which talks about how, this was in nineteen forty-five,

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  they'd already realized hundreds of new companies have been set up in Nicaragua and Argentina. And it's all connected to these Nazi industrialists. So it really happened. So the question is, why was that possible? Right? We're at war with these people. We have all these intelligence agencies operating who had information about this. So how did they get away with it? The people who were at that meeting were, like you said, wealthy industrialists, many of whom had relationships with American and UK industrialists as well. So you have the likes of Herman Schmidt, I think was the IG Farben guy. You have the representatives of Ford and Standard Oil, the German subdivisions. Their heads were at that meeting as well.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  And you have people from this Bank of International Settlements, which is this weird transnational bank as well. The important thing, and also Schroder, so Baron von Schroder, one of his people was there. All of those people for 20 years up to this point had had a deep relationship with the Rockefellers, with the Morgans, with Hambro in the United Kingdom. All of these like financial giants and oil giants had been working together. IG Farben and Standard Oil had come to an arrangement where they would have mutual monopolies before the war. So Standard Oil would dominate oil across both sides of the Atlantic. IG Farben would do the petrochemical side. And you had agreements between Rockefeller, starting a company with the Schroders. So Rockefeller, Schroder and Company.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  All of this was happening in the 30s. They also had already partnered on an initiative, which I think blows my mind to realize this was historical. Have you heard of the business plot?

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Schmedley Butler.

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were trying to take out FDR.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, FDR came into government, had his plans for like the New Deal. And so this group of transnational finance people, Morgan, DuPont, all of these people, and with support and encouragement from their German counterparts, planned this plot. It sounds like fiction, but they were going to take this, this general who they had a conversation with. They said, look, we want you to do this. They're going to raise an army of like 500,000 people in March to Washington and forcefully remove the president from office. And it's true, it's history. So these German industrialists and the Western industrialists, they were working together. And even as the war began, that was happening.

• 1:22:40Speaker 03

  The Union Bank was funding the Nazis.

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  Which one's the Union Bank?

• 1:22:43Speaker 03

  They, I think Prescott Bush was the, you know, president of the Union Bank. And then Dulles was, you know, helping out with, you know, some Nazi financing.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  Everywhere.

• 1:22:54Speaker 03

  World War II, yeah.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  My goodness.

• 1:22:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, hanging out in Switzerland and.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was connected to nearly every single like German Nazi titan of industry.

• 1:23:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you had, of course, Ford was, you know, very tied in.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  The wild thing with Ford was when the UK was trying to get into the war, they needed to create engines for their jets, for their fighter pilots. And Ford said, no, we're not going to do that. We're prioritizing the trucks for Nazi Germany. This is the dynamic that was going on. And FDR knew this. And he said to, in a, in a conversation, a letter that he wrote, that the financial interests had owned America since the time of Andrew Jackson. He was very aware that these people had tried to remove him, but they had huge amounts of power. So the point here is those industrialists who meet in the Maison Rouge in 1944, they're the same people who have these relationships with all of these people. So the Rockefellers, all of these big business people can't afford for Nazi industry to fall through.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  They're highly invested in it through subsidiaries, through Swiss bank accounts. That entire industry, which is there, which is under threat, needs to be evacuated to protect their business interests as a baseline, let alone taking advantage of any technological advances which have happened. So I, I think that's very, very important. But there's another dynamic here, which I, I find shocking just to say it out loud. You ask yourself, well, if that was happening, what about the intelligence agencies? Who would surely be monitoring this situation? But who was running the intelligence agencies in wartime Europe? You know, you just mentioned Dulles, right? So you've got the Office of Strategic Services, which is run by Donovan with Dulles. Donovan's also a Wall Street lawyer.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  People don't know, there was also another American intelligence agency dedicated to South America, which is the Office for the Coordination of Inter-American Affairs. And you ask yourself, well, who would be the right person to run a vast intelligence agency for South America? Just turns out to be Nelson Rockefeller, okay? Meanwhile, you've got the British Security Coordination, which is run by William Stephenson, who's a very interesting individual. He has his offices in Rockefeller Plaza, right next to the OSS, and Nelson Rockefeller's there too. And then you've got the Special Operations Executive in the United Kingdom. Again, who would be the best person to run this highly sensitive intelligence network? It turns out to be one of the directors of the Bank of England, Hambrose.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  So what you've got here is a situation where these finance and industrialists are embedded together before the war. During the war, they keep trading. And the very people who should be keeping their eyes on them are running the intelligence networks, which are going to enable them to evacuate all of this technology. Now, that backdrop is very important because after the war, all those intelligence agencies basically get shut down, reintegrated into different places. So what are those people going to do with all the relationships that they've developed? Well, there is an organization which was created initially in 1945 and then rebranded in 47. It's called the World Commerce Corporation. You, you'll, you'll see it now. If you hear that and you go back to Lavenda, you go back to different books, you'll see it pop up.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  It is the most bland sounding organization, very much like the Maynard Consortium, right? Which was, by the way, in the book, founded in the late 40s, just like this was. So what is the World Commerce Corporation? Well, it's founded in Panama to obscure its foundations. On the board, Donovan, Stephenson, Hambrose, you've got Dulles doing the legal counsel. There's a whole bunch of other high-powered UK people, loads of OSS people who are out of work. And there's also connections to organized crime, which we can talk about in a minute, and the Nazi underground too. This organization had between 250 and 500 subsidiaries after a couple of years. So if you look at the Maynard Consortium, one of the big parts of the plot there

• 1:26:38Speaker 02

  is that all of its finances and its operations are obscured by these companies which appear and disappear. And that's exactly what you get with the World Commerce Corporation. A lot of those companies can be tied directly to the drug smuggling and arms trafficking, which people tend to say the CIA did this, which it kind of did. But it was doing this through private organizations, which all root back to the World Commerce Corporation. So this is a very interesting organization which appears right after the war. And Rockefeller, Morgan, and all these people are also a part of this too.

• 1:27:09Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  Fascinating.

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  So fascinating. Interesting. Do we have any evidence that they had anything to do with UFOs? Or it just sounds exactly like the Maynard Consortium from a personnel perspective?

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  From a personnel perspective, yes. And I think, you know, what's interesting is in the novel, the connection to UFOs is kind of like, pretty obscure anyway. In this case, I think, you know, what we've got to look at is that Maison Rouge meeting. And whatever the best technology was that was taken out of Nazi Germany, would have been relocated somewhere else under the auspices of these intelligence people, who had that unique information, right? So these are the people with the relationships before the war, during and afterwards, with the unique insights. And one of the people, I think it was Tom Hill, he was one of the UK members of WCC. He said, "The goal was to take advantage of the relationships we'd accrued during the war." And Peter Lavenda, when he briefly touches on it, he says, "The objective was to facilitate trade

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  between South America and Germany." Okay, that's a very interesting dynamic to have. Another guy, Peter, Peter Dale Scott, is he the guy who writes about JFK?

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  Deep state and yeah.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:19Speaker 03

  invented the term deep state.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Right, there you go, the right guy. So he describes it as a private intelligence agency for people like for Nelson, like, like the Rockefellers and his financiers. So very, very interesting descriptions from people who look into this. And what's fascinating is the, the bulk of the information I got from this was from a forum online. I mean, it's amazing what some of these people will dig up on forums. They were investigating the World Commerce Corporation purely through the lens of the Kennedy assassination. They weren't looking at this in terms of UFOs, but for them, this organization was critical to that nexus. So to, to, to be, to be very clear here about the UFO thing. The reason I'm interested is not just because of secret machines, but also because of Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  You might think it's the only book I've ever read, but it had a huge impact on me. And when he's speaking with this guy, Major Murphy, this is one of his key sources in the book. We don't know the guy's real name, some sort of general presumably. He's talking with Valet about what if it's possible that people created flying saucers during the war? And he points to 1943 and he says, you know, what if someone was experimenting with this technology? It turns out its real advantage wasn't its flight capabilities, but its psychotronic effect. And he suggests that it's not, I mean, Valet then puts in basically and says, are you seriously suggesting that the Nazis are behind the UFO phenomenon? And his response is, why are you talking about the Nazis? Other people became involved.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Okay. So the implication here is that somehow this technology ended up getting worked on by other people. And wherever that was, the really interesting stuff presumably got evacuated out. And this private organization appears with huge numbers of subsidiaries. And remember all those shell companies the Germans set up presumably could be interlocking through all of that obscurity with an emphasis on trade relationships with South America. So, you know, I can't peer beneath the covers there, but I think that's very interesting.

• 1:30:21Speaker 03

  It's fascinating. Was the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein involved in the World Commerce Consortium?

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Not from what I've seen.

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  Was it World Commerce?

• 1:30:32Speaker 02

  This is why it's such a boring name. World Commerce Corporation.

• 1:30:35Speaker 03

  World Commerce Corporation.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  By the way, they also created a World Banking Corporation, a World Finance Corporation, a banking world corporation. I mean, like, yeah, this is when you dig into this stuff, it's almost impossible to dig through all these shell companies.

• 1:30:48Speaker 03

  Generic shell companies that, you know, are meant to not be, they're meant to be forgotten, like I just did in this conversation.

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  I'm falling prey to it. Yeah. I mean, you also have a lot of interesting connections between some of these old families that you're mentioning as part of the WCC, let's just call it that. And UFOs. So like Rockefeller, for example, you know, Detlev Bronk was the president of the Rockefeller Foundation. He was rumored to be the, yeah, president.

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:31:17Speaker 03

  He was rumored to be on the Majestic Twelve, rumored to do all the early alien autopsies, president of the medical school at Johns Hopkins, which obviously has a lot of kind of intel agency ties. William Stevenson was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown. In fact, when Thomas Townsend Brown did a tech retrieval mission in, behind enemy lines in World War II, there's a telegram from William Stevenson to Townsend's wife, Josephine. And he says, your husband is okay. You know, we have him, he's okay. And he comes back and he recovers or whatever, but he was extremely close with Townsend. They also went on these sort of trips to the Bahamas on this yacht owned by this guy,

• 1:31:59Speaker 03

  Eldridge Reeves Johnson, who was head of RCA, you know, Victor Talking Machines Company. And they were interested in really exotic technology. If you read William Stevenson's biography, A Man Called Intrepid, by another guy named William Stevenson, which is funny, spelled a little differently, William Stevenson.

• 1:32:17Speaker 02

  That confused me, by the way. I was digging up William Stevenson. I thought he'd written some of the books.

• 1:32:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not an autobiography, but it's Stevenson with a V wrote it for the P H Stevenson.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Glad we covered that.

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. He, you know, the, the super spy Stevenson was also very close with a guy named Charles Proteus Steinmetz, who was working for GE in Chenectiki, New York, and was extremely interested in kind of heterodox models for electromagnetism. You know, what might be described today as extended electrodynamics, which people like Hal Puthoff are very interested in. So, and then you have Agnew Bonson, who was funding all the top theoretical physicists at the time, but also a lot of interesting, you know, people like Townsend Brown, literally working on anti-gravity, doing anti-gravity experiments. And he wrote a book called The Stars Are Too High.

• 1:33:12Speaker 03

  And it's a book about rogue Nazi scientists who break off and collaborate with American scientists and create essentially man-made UFOs and then stage an alien invasion. And he dies a couple of years later in a bizarre plane crash, which to this day, his family thinks, you know, he was killed essentially because the power lines were put up right where, you know, he was land, right on the landing strip or whatever. So, yeah. And then you have Kissinger probably tied in with UFO stuff as well. William Steinman, you know, goes to the house of Eric Henry Wang, who ran special projects at Wright Patterson.

• 1:33:56Speaker 03

  And he meets with Wang's widow, Maria Wang, and she's like, yes, my husband did work on UFOs and his boss was Henry Kissinger. And there are a couple of other, I did a whole video essay on Henry Kissinger, but there are a couple of other things that make me believe Kissinger might've been tied in with the whole UFO thing. And Kissinger was probably more beholden to Nelson Rockefeller than he was to Nixon throughout his tenure as Secretary of State under Nixon. So loose threads, but like.

• 1:34:28Speaker 02

  Oh, but they, they keep overlapping.

• 1:34:30Speaker 03

  They keep overlapping.

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  And on, on the, the American scientist and Nazi scientist thing, one of the fascinating things with the World Commerce Corporation is they have a vice president called Ricardo Siqueira. I don't know how you pronounce his second name, but Siqueira seems to be the S I C R E. And he was essentially, I think, a Spanish guy, Spanish spy during World War II, who was basically employed by the OSS. And, you know, he, he seems interesting. He seems kind of a little bit dodgy, connected to organized crime, all of this stuff. But he had, I think he had a colleague or a friend in Spain called Robert Rourke. And it turns out they lived in the same apartment complex.

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  So Robert Rourke is writing sort of travel journals and occasionally mentions his adventures with Ricardo Siqueira. And he talks about how they are part of a secret society which strides the world, is the phrase he uses.

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Describing himself, Ricardo Siqueira, also the oil magnate, I think it's Jake Hammond. What's fascinating here, who lives in the same building as Rourke and Siqueira? Otto Skorzeny.

• 1:35:40Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. So they're living there.

• 1:35:43Speaker 03

  Tell, tell people who Otto Skorzeny is.

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Well, he's, he's, he's a famous Nazi commando who I think had saved the life of Mussolini. A big scar across his face and had relationships with some of the highest echelons of Nazi power. I think there's a relationship, his, one of his wives was very well connected with Yomar Schacht, who was the head of the Reichsbank and Bank of International Settlements, I think. So he had connections to this fraternity, transnational brotherhood thing.

• 1:36:11Speaker 03

  And ironically, I think, went to South America, was this notoriously kind of ruthless guy. And I think then partnered up with Mossad after, so he like worked with the Israelis after being a Nazi.

• 1:36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. He like trained them on some stuff. It's really confusing, that whole thing. Yeah. What's going on with the Mossad getting involved in it? But there's another thing about this too. I mean, firstly, Lavenda talks about how Otto Skorzeny is the public face of this huge Nazi underground. He's the guy with the relationships to whatever escaped afterwards. There's also a fascinating entry from a lady called Aline Griffith, who briefly worked for the World Commerce Corporation. She'd later go on to become a Countess. I don't know why she, she had that prefix eventually. So Griffith writes in, in her biography, in her journals, that when she first worked for the World Commerce Corporation, she was working for Frank Ryan, the president. And they seem to be doing, you know, it seemed to be like a CIA front, but it was agreed it wasn't really a CIA front. It was its own thing.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  She described it as a precursor to the Iran-Contra situation, right? So basically drug smuggling, arms smuggling across borders, using all of those shell companies. And then she says, it was very different eight or nine years after that, because Otto Skorzeny came in and took over the operation. And when he did, we suddenly got access to resources and things I wasn't even aware of. And at some point she says, I didn't even want to know what was going on. So according to her, and by the way, she was connected to, I think Nancy Reagan and a whole bunch of elite people in the US. She was basically saying the World Commerce Corporation, not only was it the precursor to Iran-Contra, but eventually Otto Skorzeny took on a serious leadership role. He wasn't just an obscure connection after a few years.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  And I think that raises questions about what those operations may have been that they are engaging in and what shadowy underworlds they may have been connected to as well. There are other mafia figures connected. You've got papal aristocracy on the board as well. I mean, it's, it's impossible to list all the names here without going off.

• 1:38:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  But eventually it links to the Bahamas with Thomas Townsend Brown and that whole geographical location.

• 1:38:17Speaker 03

  How does it link with the Bahamas?

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if you read the novel Secret Machines again, the Maynard Consortium is likely described, founded in the forties, has all of these shell companies, but eventually in 1964, something happens, right? So very clear, there's this mysterious entity called SWEEP. Okay. And a lot of people have been trying to figure out what's SWEEP. We figured out Maynard Consortium, I think, but people think SWEEP, W S W E E P, capital letters. People assume it must be the SWIFT organization, right? Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Transactions. The thing is, DeLong's very clear, SWEEP is obscure. Okay. You're not going to be able to figure out what it is. It's hardly mentioned anywhere. But it involves all this money from this huge underground being funneled, hundreds of billions being funneled about the time of 1964.

• 1:39:05Speaker 02

  Now, I haven't figured out what sweep is, but some very interesting things happened in 1964.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Firstly, you've got something called Money Rex. You heard of this?

• 1:39:16Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  It sounds like some sort of a child's conception of a game or something, but it's a real thing involving a guy called, I think it's Michael Sindona. Again, first name, I haven't had anyone pronounce it, so I could have got that wrong. This guy had worked with James Jesus Angleton, big mob figure. And he was basically responsible for helping the mafia move their money without that being noticed in covert ways. And eventually he became extremely good at this. By 1964, the mafia was basically saying, look, we need you to launder all of our money. We have too much of it. And so he creates something called Money Rex. And I only stumbled across this a few days ago, so the pieces are sketchy here. But Money Rex basically becomes connected, it's this single entity that's connected to 850 banks.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  And it's used to do the world's biggest money laundering operation ever. $200 billion, according to the author Paul Williams. And what's fascinating is Sindona, as part of this, would acquire his own banks. Many of those banks, when he would acquire them, two or three people would then acquire all the rest of the shares. One was the Vatican Bank, the other one was Charles Hambro. So the financier who ran the Special Operations Executive, Bank of England Director, and a founding member of the World Commerce Corporation. So, and also bear in mind, Valet, I think, claim, you know, in one of his novels, he says, "A lot of this might be traced back to a private European bank from the 1800s." Charles Hambro's bank would fit that very well.

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  Anyway, so you've got this huge Money Rex thing, which is suddenly able to launder hundreds of billions of dollars. In 1964, it's exactly what DeLong describes in the book. The question is, where does that go? And this is where it's tricky to figure it out, but a lot of World Commerce Corporation-associated individuals would suddenly be moving towards the Bahamas. Something happened down there where a group of people had done what was called the Hawksbill Creek Agreement. And they purchased 50,000 acres of land from the Bahamianian government, effectively creating an autonomous state where they had no laws, no one was overseeing them. They could create as many shell companies as they wanted at scale now, which is one of the things that they did. And as part of that, they created this thing called Devco.

• 1:41:28Speaker 02

  D E V C O, capital letters. For a little while, I was thinking, is this sweep, you know, five letters, capital letters? I don't think it is, but Devco becomes controlled by the World Commerce Corporation, who then suddenly take this interest in the Bahamas and these shell companies start to appear. I think the combination of this mass money laundering and all of these shell companies could equate to something. This is a could, okay? You're with me here in the middle of my investigation. But what happens is the Bahamas becomes a location associated with all sorts of weird stuff. Like you said, Thomas Townsend Brown is meeting William Stevenson, one of the founding members of the World Commerce Corporation in the Bahamas. You have all of this stuff happening on Nassau, the island there.

• 1:42:11Speaker 02

  And you also have Howard Hughes, who suddenly gets brought down there.

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:42:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:16Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 1:42:17Speaker 02

  I haven't dug into the story very deeply, but Howard Hughes, there's different stories associated with it. It seems in one story, it's a voluntary thing. In another one, he seems to be kind of taken down there to be held for some reason.

• 1:42:29Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I don't have a huge like background on Howard Hughes, but he's suddenly in the Bahamas as are endless people. Another fascinating link is Alfred Krupp. So one of the titans of German industry, I think he was at the Maison Rouge meeting. And in 1955, he goes down there with the richest man, one of the richest men in the world, Axel Wenner Gren, Swedish multi-billionaire. And they go down to Nassau to discuss power plays, is what's described, right? Big business power plays. So there's some gravitational force pulling people in. The final thing I find fascinating is Resorts International. Are you familiar with them?

• 1:43:08Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:43:08Speaker 02

  Sounds so boring. Why would I care about Resorts International? There's this island in that location, the Bahamas. It's called Hog Island. And a guy, it was Axel Wenner Gren, actually purchased it, rebranded it Paradise Island. He's a good marketer. He knows what he's doing. People are going to go to Paradise Island. And they basically end up building this fancy hotel there and everything. You're thinking, this is really uninteresting. What happens is a weird paint company, I wish Lavenda was here because he could tell us what's really going on. There's this paint company called the Mary Carter Paint Company. It's like a CIA front, which is then converted into this organization called Resorts International, which is kind of running Paradise Island and some casinos and gambling, which presumably is being used for money laundering.

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  That casino, that Resorts International organization decides to create a subsidiary designed to do intel checks on staff, which then gets rebranded into what's called International Intelligence Incorporated, Intertel. This is a private intelligence agency, which suddenly is employing some of the most talented executives, not executives, but CIA MI6 people are suddenly working for this non-state intelligence network, which is a subsidiary of what is effectively a casino industry. Intertel, I think, is interesting, and I want to invest time there for a very specific reason. Jim Semivan is interested in The Secret Machines book, and I think we might have pulled some of the threads about why.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  He also talks about this idea of a non-state hostile intelligence network. I don't know if you've heard that phrase before.

• 1:44:41Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  I find it fascinating. It's in reference to Havana Syndrome, actually. And he's very subtle about it, and he walks right up to the line. He says, you know, you might want to consider what Mike Pompeo had said about this non-state hostile intelligence network. It's like, wow. A sort of a transnational, non-state intel. And, you know, the World Commerce Corporation kind of fits that. That's what Peter Dale Scott described it as. But Resorts International suddenly has a subsidiary, which has a private intelligence network, which is doing very dubious stuff. It's connected to organized crime, mail and ski, all of this stuff. What's fascinating is that's like the seventies. You know who becomes the controller of Resorts International in the mid seventies?

• 1:45:21Speaker 03

  Who?

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Donald Trump.

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  No way. What?

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  I know. It's so interesting. For a brief period, he was the guy basically in charge of it for a year or so. Whilst this private intelligence network is presumably still being run. There are many reasons I find that interesting. I mean, one of them is the context in which Jim Semivan references the non-state intelligence networks, obviously Havana Syndrome. But he's also referencing it in terms of WikiLeaks.

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  He's saying, you know, that the WikiLeaks thing may have been coming from there. So you go back to the 2016 election, you've got Hillary Clinton versus Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton's doing very well and is promising to release information about UFOs and try and pull the lid off of things. According to Semivan, a non-state intelligence network is responsible for the leaking of these emails, which were pretty decisive in forcing Trump in and Clinton out.

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  But isn't that because Pompeo hated Julian Assange? And isn't he just talking about WikiLeaks?

• 1:46:17Speaker 02

  It's totally possible that he could be describing that. But what I find interesting is Semivan's focus on it in the context of Havana Syndrome. You know, so he's saying, you might want to think about what he's saying there. So I've been looking cautiously and trying to figure out, where can I identify private transnational intelligence apparatuses? Because I think this is one of the big mistakes we make in terms of analyzing geopolitics as well is when you're constrained to your analysis through the lens of nation states.

• 1:46:44Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  You know, you don't have the granularity to understand what's going on. You think, well, it's US versus Iran. It's Russia versus Ukraine, and we all continue to be mystified about what's really going on with these wars. These sort of transnational entities, whether it's this Nazi underground, the mafia, or a private intelligence network, which may have allegiances which aren't aligned with the United States, but leverages intelligence from the United States. Could these be important components to try and understand what's going on?

• 1:47:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Well, there's, I don't know if you've ever read Carol Quigley, the Anglo-American establishment, but he talks about how US intelligence agencies were birthed out of this kind of roundtable culture between secret societies in the US and the UK, or really Britain at the time. And it was Cecil Rhodes and Lord Alfred Milner and, you know, counterparts in the US. And they had these kind of loose informal organizations. And the idea that after 1947, when the CIA gets created and those things get formally disbanded, those all go away is ridiculous. You know, those informal networks have to persist in some shape or form. And then you look at the Epstein stuff, and it kind of points at that too.

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  And it points at a lot of science suppression being a theme. He says, tells Bannon that he's, you know, decides to set up Zorro Ranch because Los Alamos physicists are retiring, you know, in New Mexico. And so he wants to be, you know, have proximity to them. And he says he kills pawns in an email, which is cold fusion. He's talking about pawns and Fleishman. And then you go back to the idea that Maxwell, you know, probably, Robert Maxwell. Because he obviously, you know, Epstein is with Ghislaine Maxwell, Robert Maxwell is Ghislaine's father. You know, people always note his Israeli intelligence ties, which are definitely a thing. But he also, I believe, was tied in with the MI6.

• 1:48:42Speaker 03

  So you have this MI6 guy in Robert Maxwell, who I also don't think anybody knows, interrogated Nazi scientists post-World War II. And then he's setting up scientific peer review. And then his, you know, call it his son-in-law, I don't think Ghislaine and, you know, Jeffrey were married necessarily, but like his, you know, his protege, who's saying he's going around, he's suppressing science in the form of Pahn's Fleischmann, you know? And so, and that feels like this bizarre international network, shadow network thing.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, if you keep looking at the connection of all these companies, Robert Maxwell very quickly comes into frame. So you're with Resorts International, you've got Perm index and all these things. And they're all connected to World Commerce Corporation. Very quickly, just one increase of the lens you're looking at, Maxwell appears, Jason to all of this. And it makes complete sense, right? Eileen Griffith is saying this nexus was the precursor to Iran-Contra, arms trafficking, drug trafficking, trafficking in general. And this, this lack of allegiance to any individual nation or state. And this, this, this willingness to sort of trounce on various alliances to fulfill your objectives. And Maxwell's also interesting because of the Promise software scandal, are you familiar with that?

• 1:49:55Speaker 03

  Oh, very, yeah.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  Right. So he sold that to Sandia Labs.

• 1:49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  Whoever had the backdoor to there suddenly had all of their information.

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  Yes. So Robert Maxwell is selling software that is systematically siphoning off American nuclear secrets to some organization.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:50:11Speaker 03

  That is very weird and worthy of investigation, you would think.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  And I think that's where, you know, what's interesting to me is, you know, we traced it all the way back to the 30s and those original financial relationships. A lot of those people were anti-Semitic, right? But by the time you get to the 70s and 80s, the Mossad has accrued such power, especially through software. I spent years in cybersecurity. One time I was kind of asked to write a paper on the Israeli cybersecurity industry. And I was blown away by how they punch above their weight.

• 1:50:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  It's well known now, I think, you know, in the public that cyber warfare capabilities, they're off the charts. So the Promise software scandal, it's not just like an early example of cyber warfare. It was the one where no one was ready for it. They deployed that software everywhere and got access to information and information's power. So I just wonder about the shift of this network. And I think ultimately, at that level, when you're ultimately a transnational criminal network, you don't necessarily have the same allegiances that we might have at our level of the culture. But there certainly seems to have been a shift towards Israeli power in that, that underbelly, I think.

• 1:51:18Speaker 03

  Hmm. Well, they, yeah, they have an elite hacking unit called 8200. And they, you know, all those guys are like, you know, elite cyber hackers and stuff. And I, did Pegasus also come out of?

• 1:51:29Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 1:51:30Speaker 03

  Israel, which, you know, is obviously, you know, if you, if that's on your phone, they, you know, they do track all your keystrokes, you know, pretty much everything is.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  They've already got it all. There's no point worrying about it anymore. I mean, they're on everywhere.

• 1:51:43Speaker 03

  They're, yeah, they're, they're very competent in those areas.

• 1:51:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't know. I don't know where that leads us, but.

• 1:51:52Speaker 02

  It's, it's open-ended. I mean, right now, I'm trying to figure out all those connections from when you get to the Bahamas and the, but where does it ultimately intersect with UFOs? And to me, this is, this is where it gets very interesting because, you know, what was it you said about this international corporation board that, that?

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  Oh, that Ben Rich was saying, well, he was saying at the end of his life, he was talking about UFOs. And he was lamenting the fact that you, the UFO issue was governed by this international corporate board and was hoping that it would be taken under the kind of the umbrella of, you know, American intel and aerospace world more.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  Which is fascinating.

• 1:52:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:30Speaker 03

  Because you hear a guy who's at the tip of the spear when it comes to building recon planes for the CIA and, you know, very advanced American defense tech. And he's saying that there's something international above him that governs the UFO issues.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. You think that's the guy who's got the secrets and he's frustrated because he doesn't have them.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  And that, whatever that entity is, if it still exists right now, I think you, you, you see this sort of conflation of the Epstein issue and the deep state issue and the underground criminal networks with the UFO issue. And they, I think they intersect in there. Whatever it is today is probably quite dangerous. So I'm glad we only went up to the 80s.

• 1:53:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, yeah. Exactly.

• 1:53:18Speaker 03

  Shifting gears before both of us get whacked.

• 1:53:22Speaker 03

  You know, you, you did a really amazing video essay on some of the deeper threat. Maybe this is just as dangerous, by the way, but some of the deeper threads of ufology, where you basically see this kind of playbook of manufactured division going on.

• 1:53:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:41Speaker 03

  Where you get this, these infighting dynamics of UFO researchers sort of hating each other.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:47Speaker 03

  You often get these sort of constructs as well of like symposiums studying UFOs in the context of like, you, you, you describe it as like of the lineage of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, which is fascinating. So, um, yeah, I want to hear more about that.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's super important. Again, you know, we talked earlier about how this movement is growing. Okay. And there's more and more people talking about this. And a lot of the people involved are doing, you know, really phenomenal research. Like, look at UAP Gerb, the guy's unbelievable. You know, the other day I, I tried to copy and paste all of his transcripts into a single document so I could Ctrl F them and Microsoft Word broke. It couldn't handle. There was like a thousand pages. It was unbelievable.

• 1:54:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's amazing.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  He's unbelievable. Yeah. And, uh, you know, you look at someone like him. What are your options as, you know, if you're part of the secrecy faction and you've been tasked with trying to keep this information in, what are your options? You can go and you can say, we need to improve our data leak prevention system. So this information doesn't come out. And yeah, that's one prong of your strategy. The other one is, how do you deal with someone like Gerb? And there's many different ways you can do it. And number one is you can start to psychologically manipulate someone based on their profile. And I think no matter who you are, if you believe that you're immune to that, you're exactly the target they're going to be looking for. Now, these people have been practicing the arts of psychological manipulation for hundreds of years.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  And we should assume if there's a real there there and people like you and me and other people who are trying to just keep moving a little bit deeper, is there value in trying to interrupt those individuals? And there's a very simple way. It sounds like, you know, again, is someone going to get whacked? No, that's, that's the obvious thing to do.

• 1:55:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:55:32Speaker 02

  The really smart thing to do is sources. Okay? So what I do is I'm like, well, Jesse's interested in this. And what I do is I give you a couple of really good bits of information to start with, right? And suddenly you're breaking this story about this thing that's maybe somewhat important, but it's not too important. And you build a relationship of trust with me. And now you're thinking, well, yeah, I'm going to make my next video, but I'm kind of interested in what Jason's going to share next. And, you know, then I start to introduce more and more unusual, unnecessary extra information, which is not true, which gets distilled into the community, which then surrounds all the true information. But I've also dealt with you because I've turned you from someone who was active and passionate. And you've become passive. You're waiting for the sources to tell you what's going on.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  And now it's all these people behind the shadows who've got the information. And rather than you trying to be analytical and piece it together and be like, I think this could be true and this isn't, and thank you, Mr. Source, but I don't believe you this time. You sort of get turned around. And I think it's a very simple, but it's practically free. And if you, alongside that, if you just flood disinformation into the community, you do a wonderful job of making things very difficult. And, you know, you look at the 20 and back story, right?

• 1:56:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Speaker 02

  I think there's a real conversation to be had about a secret space program.

• 1:56:47Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Of course there is. Like, if I'm going to build space technology, and, you know, we had the Artemis mission. Are you telling me the United States televised their best space technology? Ahead of World War III? Are you kidding me? This is nonsense.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 1:57:01Speaker 02

  And the, the reality is.

• 1:57:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:03Speaker 02

  Have people been to Mars? And you're like, oh, that's crazy. It's like, don't write it off.

• 1:57:08Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:57:08Speaker 02

  You know, like 20, 30 years into the future of our technology will exist somewhere today.

• 1:57:14Speaker 03

  But I'm gonna write it off now because of Corey Good and Gaia, because that's the 20 and bucks, 20 and back stuff is so ridiculous. It's so insane.

• 1:57:22Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that, all that stuff has a unique effect in the United Kingdom where anything that's on the Discovery Channel is immediately unacceptable, you know? So like, there's this kind of weird dynamic there. But the other thing, which I see every day, unfortunately, and it's, it's really sad. It's like just researchers turning against each other.

• 1:57:40Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:57:41Speaker 02

  And getting so aggressive. And it's, it's, you know, I guess sometimes maybe it's warranted. Maybe there need to be conversations to be had, but like, it's the easiest way to destroy a, a, a community.

• 1:57:51Speaker 03

  It's so crazy. You've never seen a topic where it's just like we're covering, it should be us against the world, you know? It's like we're covering like these stigmatized flying objects that point to some greater, hopefully.

• 1:58:06Speaker 03

  On some level aspirational metaphysical truth, even if there are obviously dark elements to it. And you just have all this like petty politics of like, you've covered this, this, this, this was just,

• 1:58:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:19Speaker 03

  Just whatever. Well, it's all good.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it causes a lot of issues as well because now we all look like a bunch of nut jobs who can't.

• 1:58:26Speaker 03

  We all look crazy, which then you're you're falling prey to the manufactured division. You even, I think in this video that you did was just amazing. You cited this CIA playbook, which was this counter intel handbook around manufacturing infighting.

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:58:40Speaker 03

  And you look at UFO Twitter and it's like, it might as well be like the real world, like MTV is like, it's like a reality show.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:58:48Speaker 03

  And it's like, you're talking about them again, what should be like the most sacred stuff. And it ends up in this just, you know, Lord of the Flies.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  I think what's happened over the last 10 years is UFOs have kind of gone mainstream. It's interesting now, every time I speak to someone about it, like I'm going full time with the channel soon.

• 1:59:06Speaker 03

  That's amazing.

• 1:59:06Speaker 02

  I'm so excited.

• 1:59:07Speaker 03

  You should be.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  And so inevitably, you know, conversation comes up and people are like, so what are you going to do? And I'm like, well, I've got a channel about UFOs. You know, people, they don't respond by saying like, what are you on about? Normally what they struggle with is like, why would the government keep it secret? And how do they keep it secret? Genuinely like serious questions you've got to figure out. Most people are now like interested, but there's this next stage now where how do you help those people like grapple with all of this stuff? And the same people who did the first, you know, kind of movement of this aren't going to be the same people who do the next one. And similarly, after that, different people, because you need different types of evangelists for different types of audiences at different times. So there is an inevitable life cycle as well. And also specialities, right?

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  Like in the UK, we really don't have that many people who talk about this topic. And actually, people in the UK, like I said, you put something on the Discovery Channel, we're going to be like, that can't be true. Like it's, it's a default. There's this kind of snobbish attitude. So you need specialties, you need different types of communities, you need different people at different stages. And we need to be able to learn from each other and not feel paranoid that I haven't cited the exact place I got this thing from. You know, do your best, but we need to be cohesive as a unit. Otherwise, the PSYOP personnel from that manual you mentioned.

• 2:00:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I agree. Apparently King Charles is super into UFOs. Have you heard anything about that or?

• 2:00:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, from my boy Charlie up the road. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, there's a connection there with Louis Mountbatten, who is his uncle, I think.

• 2:00:42Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  I think there's a story that something landed on one of his properties.

• 2:00:48Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:00:48Speaker 02

  And his gardener saw it and he, he vouched for his gardener and put a report in. The royal family is, is interesting because of the connections I was talking about earlier about this. These elites who ran the intelligence agencies, right? Many of them are sirs, they're knighted, they're, they're, the UK is a very different beast to the United States. We still have deeply systemic issues when it comes to hierarchies. We have a house of lords and a monarchy, you know, it's really weird. So I, the reason I'm mentioning that is where you might perceive the royal family to be this kind of little spectacle. Actually, they're deeply integrated into politics.

• 2:01:29Speaker 02

  Most legislation that goes through our parliament, they can veto it and review it and ensure it doesn't apply to them. And there have been claims that different people have been briefed about certain topics. I can't remember the details of those. I think if you're the king, I would be unbelievably bored. So I'd be interested in peering into this.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:49Speaker 02

  You know, I'd be like, you know, well, I've already got all the power, everyone's sycophantic around me about who I am. Like, what am I going to do to stimulate my curiosity? So I hope he's into it. But I, you know, if he was to say anything about it, I wouldn't trust him.

• 2:02:03Speaker 03

  That's an interesting, it's like the boredom theory of blue blooded elite UFO interest is an interesting thread.

• 2:02:11Speaker 02

  It's of Liechtenstein.

• 2:02:12Speaker 03

  That's right. I was just thinking, yeah, Hans Adams, it's funny. My, my girlfriend is, she was reading this book by Shirley MacLaine, this famous actor out here in LA. She's, you know, this very spiritual, you know, figure, kind of new agey, but really thoughtful as well. And she was writing, she wrote a book called Going Within. And she was writing about being in like some government office in DC. And she's with Claiborne Pell, who is super into, you know, UFOs, paranormal stuff. And actually happens to be Biden's, he's a senator and he was Biden's advisor. And it's Claiborne Pell, the royal.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  It's a Pell, yeah, it rings a bell.

• 2:02:55Speaker 03

  Senator Pell and Bud Hopkins is there as well. And I think has an experiencer there who she claims that like, she was, you know, she was part of some alien hybrid program or whatever. And her fetus went missing three months in, which is a common thing if you talk to people who are, you know, interested in the abduction thread. And, and then the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein is there as well. And she's just writing about this casually.

• 2:03:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:22Speaker 03

  And, you know, and then apparently he convened, the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams, convened all of the Roswell witnesses as well. And he was friends with Whitley Strieber and like, he was just really interested in UFOs. I think he's still alive. I think he's in his early 80s or something.

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  Was he the guy who is financially supporting the Lone Stars group? You know, the sort of post ORSAP group of scientists? They had some sort of sponsor who seemed to be associated with that area.

• 2:03:50Speaker 03

  What is the Lone Star? Who was?

• 2:03:51Speaker 02

  Oh, so, so after the ORSAP program was, you know, they were constantly going to get funding. They didn't get funding, going to get funding. So they all, they, they really wanted to continue discussing things. And so they formed this informal group, which is called the Lone Stars. This is Jacques Vallée, Eric Davis, Halputoff, all the same people.

• 2:04:09Speaker 03

  Ed May, who might've been part of that group, he was a famous remote viewer involved in the Stargate program. He talks about working with the Royal Prince of Liechtenstein, Hans Adams. So yeah, I don't know if that's connected with Lone Star, but.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:23Speaker 03

  I think he seems very interested in exotic tech, A and B, you know, alien UFO phenomena. And I think, I think he believes that Jesus is going to, it's eschatological at its core. Like he believes Jesus will show up on a flying saucer or something.

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  That would be a great end to it all.

• 2:04:42Speaker 02

  Finally, yeah.

• 2:04:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm back.

• 2:04:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, okay. Well, I don't know where he would have got that from, but I guess it's the synthesis of, of two very different things put together.

• 2:04:54Speaker 03

  I think there are people who think that, you know, that Jesus going up on the cloud in the book of Acts is a, you know, is a flying saucer or something and.

• 2:05:02Speaker 02

  It's interesting. I mean, what's fascinating is he's like the most influential person of all time, but we just don't know much about him.

• 2:05:09Speaker 03

  Jesus.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, well, you know, you have all these riddles and parables that he's spoken and stuff.

• 2:05:16Speaker 02

  But did he, but did he speak in them?

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  Oh, that's unclear.

• 2:05:19Speaker 02

  That's the whole thing.

• 2:05:19Speaker 03

  It's hard to say.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  The distance and time and everything. So.

• 2:05:22Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  You know, he was.

• 2:05:23Speaker 03

  I mean, I think he was a real historical figure.

• 2:05:25Speaker 02

  100%.

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:26Speaker 03

  And then, yeah, I don't know.

• 2:05:27Speaker 02

  Exactly. From there, I think, you know, he had, he had an impact and he was interesting, but you know, what we can filter through that is, is limited.

• 2:05:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  Is what I would say to the Prince of Liechtenstein if he was here, but.

• 2:05:37Speaker 03

  But he's probably, my, my guess would also be if we were in the room with Jesus, he would be notable in any room he's in. He would be, he would probably have like a pretty interesting energy and have a disproportionate impact, you know? He wouldn't just be like a dude in the corner, you know?

• 2:05:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the charisma that you need to, to, to have that impact is huge.

• 2:05:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  Or at least the capabilities that you would need, right? Sometimes people aren't that charismatic, but they have an ability to do things, which really puts them at the center of the room.

• 2:06:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. So where do you think all this stuff goes? This, this modern crazy UFO disclosure push? Obviously there are cynical motives and intents behind it and weird elements and factions all fighting and vying for it. And then there's also something very hopeful and aspirational to me at least, that comes from it, which is this bulldozer into the past paradigm of kind of materialist reductionism, which to me leads to kind of nihilism. And so what, what do you, what do you think happens? There, there are positive possibilities and negative possibilities.

• 2:06:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see. I don't know that these are the things that are going to happen, but I've recently been just really focused on this, this tension of two interpretations of what's going on right now. And it comes back to that Collins Elite video, actually, where you've got, you know, there are these Christian people who believe the end times started in the 1900s. But then there's simultaneously these new age people who believe that we're going through a transition. And, you know, one person's apocalypse might be another person's, like, the world is changing. And, you know, like Pasolka says, revelation is like, it's, it's a revelation. It's like it, new information is coming in. So how we view the future, I think, is, is really important.

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  The lens that we bring to it, through which we interpret this incredibly mysterious thing is going to be pretty decisive. So, you know, I do, I do worry about the, the religious component and our inability to cautiously delineate between what people have experienced and, and dogma. But I hope, I hope that we're going through that slow evolution and that we may be on the verge of something immensely positive. You know, the cheesy phrase is always darkest before the dawn. It's getting real dark in the moment. And, you know, my, my two hopes are one, that there'll be a dawn and that this is going somewhere and we'll discover what that is in some beautiful way.

• 2:08:10Speaker 02

  At moments where I lose hope in that, I remind myself of the astonishing testimony of Life After Death. And, you know, Leslie Kane's amazing book Surviving Death has been a huge rock of comfort for me at times where, you know, whether it's on a personal level or on a global level, you feel kind of hopeless is, uh, you know, I'm a big believer that all of this has real meaning. And, uh, you know, what we're experiencing here is this physical reality, but there's a lot more going on. Um, very vague answer to your question, but those are the sort of the pillars I stand on to try and navigate whatever's coming because it's short term. It seems kind of negative.

• 2:08:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, fair enough. Do you have, do you have a sort of a base case understanding of, of what is going on? Obviously, we talked about, you know, the flying objects themselves, but there's obviously this sort of abduction phenomena as well. And kind of what seems like this bizarre intergenerational breeding hybridization program.

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:08Speaker 03

  What's that about?

• 2:09:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I think that that's a, that's a really important point, actually, is disclosure, how much of that information can even come out? Because, you know, we've already covered, like, there's this set course menu. Lu Elizondo, many years ago, he said, you can't do a 10 course menu all at once. You have to do it piece by piece. So we've had, there's something in the air. We don't know what it is. But we've had, um, some of these things have crashed. It's very likely not Russia or China. We've got the bodies. There's a secret program and it's sensitive. We've been through like five or six courses. Uh, you know, one of the big things that people have hinted at is information about like hybridization.

• 2:09:46Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:09:46Speaker 02

  It sounds wild. So I have like a, a notion, which is like my notebook where I keep all my stuff. And I was just dropping, whenever I'd hear information about hybrids, I'd be like, I don't want to forget about this, but I'm really not interested in this wacky topic. Just drop it in that folder. And, um, you know, eventually I went back in there and I was like, whoa, hold on a second. There's like a lot here. And one of the interesting things was how many different people seem to have been kind of warned off of talking about the hybrid issue. So DeLong, when he came out, he was like, there's a big genetic component to this. And he said, I, you know, I asked my advisors these questions, these questions, but the moment I asked them about hybrids, they were like, went quiet and I wasn't supposed to talk about that.

• 2:10:26Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:10:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, the same thing with, uh, Falet's journals. He recounts a conversation with Diana Pasolka, where Pasolka is basically explaining that they, I don't know, Tim Taylor, who is it, is saying like, you shouldn't be talking about the hybrid thing. And then you've got John Ramirez, who in 2022, uh, made comments to the effect that everyone is waiting for Lu Elizondo to talk about hybrids, like it's coming. So there's this kind of idea that we've got this like process that we have to go through in terms of which conversations happen when. And so, you know, I start thinking about the hybrid thing. And very quickly, you begin to realize why it would be at the very least a late stage topic. And then you might even realize, maybe it's too dangerous to even talk about it. So the, the hybridization

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  thing raises questions because if we can breed with non-human entities, does that mean that we're related?

• 2:11:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:11:19Speaker 02

  So suddenly you've got really confusing piece of information, which immediately leads to another really big question about who we are. Next, you've got questions about our religious texts and what they really mean. So now you're destabilizing religion as well. The really big concern here is we have been through and right now are also going through moments where we question the human dignity of the people next to us. So in World War II, everything that happened in terms of the Holocaust was basically about trying to exterminate a specific lineage, right? A specific group of people and their DNA from the planet. Uh, we see similar things happening right now, you know, arguably in Gaza and

• 2:12:00Speaker 02

  Israel, you've, you've got questions there about, you know, genocide and about the racial components there. What I find very interesting is in the Secret Machines books, the nonfiction, you've got one of the advisors just outright telling Lavenda and DeLong, you know, genocides may be a function of the phenomenon. It may be trying to eliminate certain genetic strands for its own purposes. That's coming from, it could be McCasland, it could be General Hayden. We don't know which one. But one of the advisors said this, and it was in the book, and they were like, we need to share this information as part of this project. So you've got this huge question here about what is going on in terms of race. One of

• 2:12:43Speaker 02

  the fascinating links to this is, uh, you know, when the Bledsoes had their experience and Ryan Bledsoe recounts a conversation that he had, a lot of people have issues with Ryan Bledsoe, that's fine, that's okay. But he recounts a conversation he had with Jim Samyvan, I think is very instructive. Samyvan purportedly told him, you know, we think you're hybrids. The reason you're having these experiences is because you may have more non-human DNA, um, or a certain strand of non-human DNA. You read Lu Elizondo's book, Imminent, it's in there. He says, it seems to be that people with Cherokee blood and, uh, DNA have more experiences and also are more inclined to go towards a certain type of work, right? So they end up in this kind of government UFO mystery solving thing

• 2:13:25Speaker 02

  based on their genetic lineage. So all sorts of different information is coming from places indicating that, and it's, you know, we can't take this as fact because it may well be the case that this is real, that there is studies showing that as you change the genetic profile of an individual, certain things happen. Maybe you gain certain capabilities, which will be very interesting. But there's another side to this, which is whether it's true or whether it's a mythology, I tend to, I doubt it's just a mythology, but either way, can we handle that information right now, given where we are, given the geopolitical conflicts, given our inability to see each other as human beings? And it's so painful. I mean, like, I'm, I'm not in pain. I'm, I'm here with you in California. It's great,

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  you know, but it's just looking at what's happening around us right now. You think if we were to reveal that some people on the planet have more non-human DNA whilst other people have less, that creates a spectrum by which you can judge whether a person is more or less human. You telling me you want to release that information into the general population right now?

• 2:14:30Speaker 03

  No, it doesn't seem like a good idea.

• 2:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:34Speaker 02

  There's so much data indicating that, you know, and it's anecdotal data, sure. But from this group of people who have been releasing information, that's one of the things that's kind of being hinted at.

• 2:14:44Speaker 03

  It's anecdotal, but it's also from guys who are very high up at the CIA, especially when it comes to people like Jim Samyvan, you mentioned. And it's funny, as you were talking, I'm all, I'm almost thinking like, okay, so you're an average person. You hear somebody high up at the CIA say, you know, something about alien human hybrids. And you are totally disenchanted with the government. You're skeptical of everything. You know, we just went through all this Epstein stuff or whatever. And you're, you're thinking they're just, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna lie to me. And so, um, uh, you're, you're gonna be so totally skeptical and think that that's just like a distraction. If you're the intel person who's super savvy, you're gonna know that you saying that will hit

• 2:15:28Speaker 03

  like, you know, some part of the population who kind of wants to, you know, is interested in this and wants to read between the lines and like learn more. And, um, but a lot of people are just going to dismiss you out of hand. And so you might even, knowing that, release this, you might be like the person who comes out, becomes the spokesperson for this stuff. And then it kind of sits there, marinates, trickles through society and kind of, you know, it becomes more acceptable to talk about five, 10 years later. And it like, it seeps and that one academic gets interested. And that's how this thing sort of gets legitimized and, and, and happens. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's only a psy-op. That, that means like, they know that them saying it sort of like, makes you

• 2:16:13Speaker 03

  immune because you don't believe them anyways.

• 2:16:15Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah. It's a dissemination of information in a non-direct kind of way.

• 2:16:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Uh, you know, the, uh,

• 2:16:23Speaker 03

  And they don't, they, a lot of these guys, you know, some of them I'm sure have counter intel backgrounds. Um, and I'm sure some of them have done some very unsavory things in their past. But they're also pretty savvy and they don't, they don't want to be looked at as total sicko fans in the future. Like they'd, I think they'd rather not in 10, 20, 30 years down the line, especially if they held high positions. They don't want to be looked at as like, you just bold faced lied to the American public.

• 2:16:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:52Speaker 03

  You know, as some high up intel person. So I don't know. It's a very, it's interesting.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  I find it's also like that whole strand of thinking is interesting in terms of geopolitics. De Long, again, like early interviews before anyone knew who his advisors were. He was talking about how some of the things that we did in Iraq may have been related to certain groups of people there who were connected with certain non-human entities and were helping them proliferate. And that that may have been one of the motivations, which sounds like a

• 2:17:21Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  I know, it's like, it sounds like a mythology, but that's one of the things that he was sharing before he was suddenly like exposed as literally having these people speak to him.

• 2:17:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:30Speaker 02

  But you know, one of the things I, you know, so many of our wars don't make any sense.

• 2:17:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:17:35Speaker 02

  What are we really doing? What's the real purpose of them?

• 2:17:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, they make a little more sense through the kind of lens of, you know, acquiring oil and resources and geopolitics. So like, why would you go into Iran for, you know, a nuclear program that's never really seemed to manifest? They don't really, they seem like a paper tiger, you know, as far as actually being able to have those capabilities. But then does it put a lot of, you know, pressure on China? And make the whole world more dependent on American natural gas? Yes, it does. And then you kind of view like American foreign policy through that hermeneutic over the last 70 years and it starts to make more sense.

• 2:18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:12Speaker 03

  But maybe there's some even weirder kind of, you know, lens that you can put on it.

• 2:18:17Speaker 02

  Cause if you believe that this is going on and we've had, I mean, we didn't even talk about this, this. Again, another idea that's trickled out there is we have a relationship with some of these beings. And if that's a thing, like we talked about a Herman, I forget his name. The German guy, the Nazi guy who claimed that they had a relationship, Herman Oberth?

• 2:18:35Speaker 03

  Oh, Herman Oberth.

• 2:18:36Speaker 02

  Oberth, yeah, yeah. Herman Oberth and, uh, you know, who is it on our side who may have had a relationship? But you're telling me we have a relationship and that's not impacting our geopolitics?

• 2:18:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:46Speaker 02

  I think it's probably the key epistemic foundation that we would have to understand what's going on. So. But again, that's, that's, that's mystery world. We can't see that very clearly. But if this is going somewhere, that's going to be a reality.

• 2:18:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you talk about, you know, historically you have kind of mystic truth seeker individuals. And then you have kind of the canonical establishment, you know, religious institution that kind of determines what's acceptable as far as what you can believe and not. And so this brings up a really interesting question that you've covered. Do you think the Vatican knows anything about UFOs?

• 2:19:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:19:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I do. And I think that the, the role of the Vatican is hinted at by many people that I would respect. It kind of comes up and then it disappears, right? No one wants to focus too much on the Vatican. So we'll keep this short.

• 2:19:37Speaker 02

  But I, I think, um, what is, you know, what is it that makes an institution last for a long time? 2000 years. There's, there's some other institutions, like I think Egyptian empires have lasted longer. But the, the key thing is you have to resist change. You have to resist revolution and, uh, the Vatican did and has done an outstanding job on that. You know, there was many doctrinal things that came up and they, they dealt with that. And they were suppressing all sorts of things that would come up for a long time. But eventually you have the Reformation, which in turn leads to the Enlightenment, which in turn leads to, you know, like a new form of government over here in America. These are all revolutions and demonstrably the Vatican conspiring with the monarchies and the Knights of Malta,

• 2:20:23Speaker 02

  who lost Malta because of Napoleon, uh, during the Napoleonic Revolution. All of them were like, we nearly got wiped off the map, you know, like late 1700s. Nearly completely destroyed all of this old power. So afterwards they colluded a thing called the Congress of Vienna. It was like 1812 or something.

• 2:20:41Speaker 03

  1815.

• 2:20:42Speaker 02

  1815. You were ready for this.

• 2:20:44Speaker 03

  Clemens von Metternich.

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  The, well, Clemens von Metternich. Who's that?

• 2:20:48Speaker 03

  He oversaw the Congress of Vienna.

• 2:20:50Speaker 02

  I'm glad you're here, Jess. The guy on top. Underneath him attending were the various monarchies and, uh, the Vatican, the Knights of Malta. And the idea was like, look, we don't like each other, like before Napoleon, these people weren't getting on, but we better get on. Because when a revolution happens in Southern Italy, that's Austro-Hungaria's problem. So I'm going to send people down to help with that. Let's systematize our response to change. And that is just a reality, um, historically. So the Vatican has always tried to deal with revolutions. What's the ultimate revolution? The reality that the biblical narrative, which constrains the information, especially not even just the biblical narrative,

• 2:21:32Speaker 02

  but the doctrine that's built on top of it, which constrains our interpretation of these frankly bizarre events, could be blown open by the next revolution. So just as a, a, a form of, if the Vatican has a personality, it's conservative. Now you can look at very specific instances where you can see this at work. The great ones, Fatima. I went there recently and, uh, did a tour and it was really funny because I went and scheduled this tour with me and my girlfriend at the time. And we went up to this lady and we spent about half an hour with her and eventually she was like, you guys Catholic? And we're like, no. She's like, what are you doing here? Everyone else who goes on this tour is a Catholic. But we went around and she showed us exactly where all these events happened and everything. And basically for those who don't know,

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  it's a 1917 kind of period in Portugal, place called Fatima. And these young children start to see strange beings. This lady appears. And, you know, no one else can really see this lady and the children keep saying she's appearing and everyone's thinking, whatever, you know? But she appears so many times, the town starts to get a little bit stirred up by it, by their stories. And then eventually she says, there's going to be a huge miracle that's going to happen on this date, this place. 70,000 people turn up and the newspapers document this and all the history we have shows this. They turn up in a field and, um, eventually everyone's thinking like, am I going to stay here? Nothing's happening. So they're getting ready to go. And the clouds pop and there's this thing in the sky.

• 2:23:00Speaker 02

  And the sources that we have from lawyers and doctors and, you know, very serious people describe it as a silvery disk. Okay. It's hovering there and it's suddenly doing this and it's going there and it's doing that. It's whizzing around. At one point it comes down. It seems like it's about to hit them and it goes back. And then suddenly the, the clouds come over and, you know, the sun kind of reappears from behind them. Okay? So the Vatican basically says this was the sun flying around. Okay? People said they saw a disk, but for the Vatican, that's kind of dangerous. Are you telling me there's a silver disk in the sky? I'm probably going to stop focusing on all my Hail Marys and start reading some books, you know? So now there's this tendency to constrain the information. You also have this with, uh, Cupertino.

• 2:23:43Speaker 03

  Specifically though, on that, I think the Vatican confiscated one of the prophecies from the, the orphans or whatever that, uh, you know, made the prophecy around, you know, the sun and, or, or, or the Virgin Mary showing up, which turned into this sort of, you know, sun in the sky. But I think the prophecy was more complex than it sort of portrayed historically. And it was written down and that piece of paper was literally confiscated.

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:10Speaker 03

  By the Vatican. It's fascinating.

• 2:24:11Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. The secrets of Fatima, right? Which is a wonderful way to brand it.

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then you have the Magenta Crash probably being held by the Vatican as well, or, or at least under the knowledge, I think it was held at the Serrate bunker, which was outside of Rome. But it was, the information about it was backchanneled through Pope Pius XII.

• 2:24:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:24:30Speaker 03

  To FDR. And yeah, you have other weird stuff too. Like, I don't, you cannot believe the majestic 12 docs. I, I, I think they were probably some counter intel ploy, but clearly part of the stuff in there is real. And there's one document around, uh, Francis Spellman being given access to the Roswell materials. Francis Spellman is deeply tied in with the Vatican and, um, was, was he a cardinal actually or?

• 2:24:58Speaker 02

  He was a cardinal and the grand protector of the Knights of Malta.

• 2:25:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, there you go. And so he's supposed to get access to the Roswell materials immediately, but this is in the majestic 12 documents. And then there's documentation of Bishop McIntyre, another guy pretty high up in, you know, the Vatican ecosystem. And he's hanging out around Edwards Air Force Base in 1954. There, this is not even MJ 12. This is real records of this Bishop McIntyre hiring, uh, hanging around Edwards Air Force Base in 54 when, you know, Eisenhower is rumored to, you know, do his deal with the aliens around allowing medical experiments to be done among the, the human population. So very strange.

• 2:25:38Speaker 02

  It is. And the general Catholic influence in America is huge, you know? I, in a video that's be released today on my channel, we talk about this. Just again, looking at the American republic when it was founded. It was founded on a completely new philosophy of how government would work, where church and state were separated. And some of the founding fathers were very worried about Catholic influence in America. Because, you know, generally the influence in Europe had been to suppress, okay? And not to allow democracy and the free flow of information. But they allowed Catholics, of course, that's the doctrine of America, right? I may not agree with you, but you're welcome here. Over time, uh, the Jesuits founded many universities here, at one point more than anybody else, including Fordham University, Georgetown.

• 2:26:21Speaker 02

  And, um, that's a great way to influence a nation slowly. You're doing great work with education. Catholic education has always been very good. But now you have access to all the people who are coming up in the youth. And you can take those who are devout Catholics and put them in very strategic positions and say, "Well, I know you were gonna do seminary. I know you love the Bible, but I really think you should get into intelligence." And that's one of the people who was the founding, uh, the founding director of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

• 2:26:49Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 2:26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:51Speaker 03

  No way, cuz they pop up all over UFO lore. They're always, you know, uh, somebody in a nuclear base sees something and the Air Force Office of Special Investigations shows up. Yeah, exactly. Says, you know, "Give me all the radar data. Shut up about this. Sign this NDA."

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:06Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, so he, so the founding director?

• 2:27:10Speaker 02

  Carol, I forget his first name, but, uh, the founding director of, of Air Force Office of Special Investigations was a devout Catholic who wanted to go to seminary and suddenly found himself in intelligence. And of course, it's AFOSI, which is overseeing the very beginnings of the Collins Elite Theory, which begins to appear, which, you know, we've already discussed is ostensibly not necessarily the best theory to explain everything. It's kind of good. Um, so, but Catholics in general appear throughout the American intelligence establishment. And there was a census that, I saw some data on where 33% of Irish Catholics had served in the military at some point. Forty or 50% of the Medal of Honors that were awarded were awarded to, to, I think, Irish Catholics or Catholics. These are, these are really big swings in the data.

• 2:27:55Speaker 02

  Now, it's not to say that Irish Catholics are bad or anything. I'm, I'm Irish, which surprises people, but you know, I'm not trying to say this race or this religion is bad. The point is the slow influence of this old world power, this top-down power from Europe over here in America has, has happened. And all it takes is, you know, if you have the Vatican who may have an interest in preventing that ultimate revolution, and they now manage to get people in positions of key power, AFOSI, different generals, CIA directors, I mean, the number of CIA directors who are Knights of Malta or Catholic is preposterously high.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  You get those people into the key functions, you've now essentially got a seat at the Board of Directors of the UFO SU. And all of your history and your intelligence apparatus can be leveraged by them as long as you have a symbiotic relationship where you both understand each other. Cuz the Vatican is at its core, a vast network. It's one of the biggest organizations, probably the biggest one on the planet with so many different networks, whether you're looking at the Jesuits, the Knights of Malta, Opus Dei, um, there's the Pro D O intelligence network. I mean, at one point I tried to list them all and I thought this is gonna take a long time to dig into all this stuff. It's huge. Um, so yeah, I do think that the Vatican knows more. I do think that they've tried to reinterpret things, but you know, I wish, another person I wish I could speak to is Pasulka.

• 2:29:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:16Speaker 02

  Because there's differences here. Some Catholics believe that we're going through what, what seems to be kind of like an evolutionary, like it's very open, it's not that doctrinal. And there are some who view themselves to be like a cataclysmic force with restraining the end times. And their job is to prevent that final thing from happening. Whereas other people are like, "The final thing's gonna happen. It's really good." You know, so there's, there's a mix.

• 2:29:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's the eminentizing the eschaton crowd. And then there's the, you know, yeah, "Let's restrain it and keep a lid on it and keep the institutions kind of intact."

• 2:29:53Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:29:54Speaker 03

  So, and it seems like people, uh, who believe both are in extremely high positions of power. So it's like, it's hard to say that the conspiracy just exists on the side of the like speeding up the apocalypse or just exists on the side of the like, you know, keeping the institutions intact. Like, who, who, or maybe that, maybe those are the two seminal factions fighting or something. I don't know, but.

• 2:30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, uh, the control, I don't know how far it can really go, um, in terms of total control. And now, you know, you look at Pope Leo calling out Trump. And it's interesting to me because prior to that, I was looking at Trump, I was seeing he attended Fordham University. He's consistently tried to get Catholics into the Secretary of Defense position. He's consistently pushed, um, Catholics involved in strange networks onto the judiciary. Uh, you know, it's, it's palpable. But, uh, is that just a public spat for other purposes? Is it real? Is it genuine? Recently, uh, was it Pope Francis was the last Pope?

• 2:30:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:56Speaker 02

  I think he was trying to deal with the Knights of Malta as well. There was some conflict there about them maybe operating a little bit rogue. He had to pull them in. So, you know, as with all things, you can't simply assume it's all one big thing. It's the same thing. I, I really struggle when people say, uh, you know, the Freemasons, the Jesuits, they're all part of like one big operation and.

• 2:31:16Speaker 03

  No, it's clearly not. And they, I think the, maybe the biggest fallacy of UFO research is we talk about Reagan like he spends all his time on UFOs. And it's like, realizing it's sub 1%. And he really is just geopolitics. It's even Trump, Trump really. Like, if there's anything going on there, the Resorts International thing, that's fascinating and I wanna look into that. But like, my gut on that guy is he's not thinking deeply about UFOs, you know?

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  He's in survival mode.

• 2:31:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's just thinking about, you know, how to make things work and, you know, thinking about geopolitics and so, but this is fascinating. I appreciate your time, Jason. This has been a lot of fun. Could go on for hours, but, uh, everybody should go check out your channel. How, how do they find you on YouTube?

• 2:32:00Speaker 02

  You just type in Jason Samosa. The channel's big enough now that you won't just find strange images of Jason Momoa as a Samosa.

• 2:32:06Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 2:32:07Speaker 02

  Move past that stage.

• 2:32:08Speaker 03

  You've broken through. Yeah.

• 2:32:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, we, we reached a milestone, but you can find me there and, uh, I'm on X as well.

• 2:32:14Speaker 03

  You do have the Jason Momoa facial hair, I will say.

• 2:32:17Speaker 02

  That's been a goal I've been working on for a while. I'm thrilled to hear you say that. That's gonna go live, right?

• 2:32:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:32:21Speaker 02

  Don't cut that out.

• 2:32:22Speaker 03

  Oh, we won't. Awesome, man. Appreciate you.

• 2:32:26Speaker 02

  Appreciate it. Thanks, Jason.

• 2:32:27Speaker 03

  Cool.

• 2:33:00Speaker 00

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