“The UFO Program Recruited Me From School!” [Exclusive Interview]

Our American Alchemist this week is Jordan Jozak. Visit Jordan’s website at https://jordanjozak.com/ Helix: Thank you Helix Sleep for sponsoring! Visit https://helixsleep.com/jessemichels to take advantage of their Fourth of July Sale and get 20% Off Sitewide Incogni: Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code AMERICANALCHEMY at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: https://incogni.com/americanalchemy MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at https://mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod Editor Application please email us your relevant work at the email address [email protected] Gifted and Talented Education (GATE) in the United States has been systematically used to identify children with anomalous cognitive and “psychic” abilities and funnel them into covert psychic development programs. Jordan Jozak says he was plucked out of a standard GATE test in rural New York at age nine, the start of a years-long grooming process that pulled him out of his school, away from his parents, and eventually into a facility where he was administered substances and subjected to experiments he was never meant to remember. These experiments involved remote viewing, mind-matter interactions (with random event generators), brain mapping using EEG’s and even remote control flight of UFOs or UAP. Jordan also reveals he was shown an ancient archeological object to see if he could mentally interact with it (he was successful). Jozak was quietly pulled from class for years, told he was special for his precocious ability to visualize and empathize; he was meant to tell no one. His teachers were never informed. When he started resisting around the age of twelve, a fabricated mental health diagnosis was used to remove him from public school entirely despite his parents’ own apprehensions. He was placed at Baker Victory Services, a Catholic-affiliated special education facility in Lackawanna County, Western New York, where a segregated part of the building ran a dual-use defense contractor-backed program while the rest served ordinary special education children. Jozak believes MITRE corporation, which is being actively investigated by Congressman Eric Burlison for its role in UFO legacy efforts, was involved in using Baker Victory Services for this experimental research. This was the plot of Stranger Things playing out in reality across America. -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early/Ad Free Episodes) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:55 - Sponsor (Helix Sleep) 4:37 - Guest Intro: Jordan Jozak 10:00 - GATE and Gifted Testing 11:09 - Interactions with Psychologists 16:16 - Stranger Things and the Montauk Comparison 28:12 - ESP Training Begins 37:45 - The Subconscious and Belief 43:11 - Connecting Psi to UFOs 47:46 - The PEAR Lab Data 49:02 - First Encounter with the Relic 52:06 - The Crystal Orb 56:32 - Telepathic Communication 1:03:27 - Esoteric Traditions 1:05:05 - Sponsors (Incogni/MudWtr) 1:07:34 - Piloting UFOs Through Consciousness 1:14:55 - Skywatcher 1:23:17 - Sacred Practices 1:25:57 - Directed Energy 1:27:08 - Crash Retrieval Operations 1:31:15 - The Field Model of Reality 1:32:28 - Extraterrestrial vs Interdimensional 1:43:08 - Boarding School 1:45:45 - MITRE and the Legacy Program 1:50:01 - Project Preserve Destiny 1:54:26 - Andrija Puharich's Space Kids 1:56:39 - Consciousness and Wave Function Collapse 1:59:07 - How Synchronicities Work / Time 2:10:37 - Intentionality 2:15:01 - Hemi-Sync and the Monroe Institute 2:17:14 - An Astral Experience and "Ken" 2:19:40 - Understanding Ourselves 2:23:47 - The Telepathy Center 2:24:15 - Closing Message 2:26:13 - Outro: Editor Job Posting Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Jesse Michels?

  You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  Be sure to tell me the whole story.

• 1:10Speaker 04

  By all accounts, I was a normal person. Life was great. Things were working out well in my favor. And then, things took a turn.

• 1:19Speaker 04

  Early 2023, I began to unravel.

• 1:26Speaker 04

  This was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks.

• 1:35Speaker 04

  I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, being surrounded with people. I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life.

• 1:47Speaker 05

  Shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services.

• 1:55Speaker 04

  I was in the gate classroom. I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a progression of more.

• 2:02Jesse Michels?

  And what sort of experiments would they have you do? And what would they test you on?

• 2:07Speaker 04

  These UAP, UFO, other materials, they're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of sedative and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it. Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. From what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller.

• 2:42Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  The people in the program had this thing. They called it a relic. And sitting at the center of the coffee table, it's a literal crystal orb, but the inside of this orb was alive.

• 2:56Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 2:59Speaker 04

  And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure, it adapts and it like changes.

• 3:06Jesse Michels?

  Oh my God.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  And it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me. Right? Consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. It's you. Your disclosure, consciousness, awareness, the fact that the world is not as we see it. It's constantly evolving. Like, that's the epitome of disclosure. Igniting sequence five. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that.

• 3:42Jesse Michels?

  Existence cannot longer be denied. There's a state that researchers call hypnagogia, that threshold between waking and sleep where the brain is doing something genuinely unusual. It's where a lot of people report their most vivid experiences, the kind of thing that comes up in remote viewing accounts, other altered states research, and some of the most fascinating conversations I've had on the show. Since moving to Austin, sleep is something I've thought a lot more about, mostly because I don't get a ton of it. Until recently, I was sleeping on a mattress that I've had for the last 10 years.

• 4:26Jesse Michels?

  And it was clearly not helping me get the sleep I need. When I finally decided I need to fix that, a friend told me to try Helix, and I'm so glad I did. They actually have a sleep quiz that matches you to the right mattress based on your sleep position, your body type, and whether you sleep hot or cold. I got matched with Helix Midnight with the Cooling Cover, which I know is going to matter a lot in these very hot Austin summers. While I've loved my Helix mattress for a while now, Helix also recently sent me their Comfort Adjust Cooling Pillow. I wake up with zero neck stiffness, which for someone sitting in a recording chair for hours is a miracle. Helix Sleep has 20-plus mattresses, free shipping,

• 5:08Jesse Michels?

  a 120-night trial, and a limited lifetime warranty. And Helix was recently named one of USA Today's Most Trusted Brands for 2026. Visit helixsleep.com/jessymichaels, Michaels with no A, to take advantage of their 4th of July sale and get 20% off site-wide. And be on the lookout for additional sales on the Helix site. Thank you so much to Helix Sleep for sponsoring this episode.

• 5:37Jesse Michels?

  Jordan Jozek, it is an honor to have you. You have one of the most extraordinary stories of anyone I know. And you've turned some very dark things in your childhood and life into a very positive mission and message. And I think you're remarkable. And I'm just honored, because I know it's not easy for you to do this and to tell your story, that you are doing this on our show. It means a lot to me.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, thanks so much for having me on, Jesse. This show's been a long time coming, and I'm just as honored to be in the position here to present it with you.

• 6:15Jesse Michels?

  The honor is mine. Why don't we back up to 2023? Because you were, by all accounts, a normal and very high-functioning, successful person. Do you want to describe, just like, give a snapshot of your life at the time?

• 6:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, definitely. So 2023, I was a very normal, run-of-the-gun person. I was a serial entrepreneur, so I had some successful ventures in business. I worked in the tree care industry. I was working in kind of applied agentic AI in late 2023.

• 6:48Jesse Michels?

  It's early for agentic AI.

• 6:50Speaker 04

  Very early, very early. We were doing some cool things with wildfire prevention and very cool, just like next generation research to help utility companies. Super proud of what I was doing at the time. And yeah, by all accounts, outside looking in, as well as from the inside, looking at myself, I was a normal person. Success driven, life was great, things were working out well in my favor. And then, as you know, things took a turn.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Things took a turn when I kind of went through some personal struggles, was going through some relationship challenges, was also working in the startup field. So just very high stress. And getting into like late 2022, early 2023, just with some triggering things in normal life, I began to unravel, for lack of a better word. And unravel in a sensation that brought back what I could only describe as childhood memories that I had not previously recollected. I was remembering a life that didn't feel like mine. And it wasn't just like simply, hey, I was remembering something all of a sudden. This was like very brutal PTSD level of flashbacks,

• 8:02Speaker 04

  throwing myself out of bed with nightmares. After this kind of triggering moment, just where work was boiling up against my relationship changes, all of it came flooding back to where I was remembering things that like I couldn't place in linear time. So I didn't know what was going on. I thought like, hey, did I just draw the crazy straw? Did something happen to me psychologically? So I did what a normal person would do, right? Like went out, sought help, started working with therapists and began to figure out that what I was recalling was actually dissociated parts of my childhood.

• 8:37Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And prior to that, what had you kind of conceived of when it came to your childhood? Did you have this kind of linear full memory of it?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Not at all, but in that same respect, um, how many people really think about their childhood, right? Like, do you remember your childhood when you were leaving?

• 8:55Jesse Michels?

  No, it's funny. I was just recounting like my, you know, elementary school teachers, and it was a struggle, but I was like able to like do it, but it's not something that's top of mind.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah. And that was my same experience with it too. It was like I thought, uh, to the best of my knowledge, I lived a very normal life. Um, you know, grew up in a small rural town. Uh, things were just normal for me, for lack of a better word. And graduated high school, uh, went on to be a very, uh, success oriented person, beat cancer at a very young age, at, um, age 20.

• 9:28Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 9:28Speaker 04

  And then, yeah, just, just went off. I was just, um, uh, like a hardworking, committed individual and life was good. Um, and then the memories started, like I said, and these memories weren't typical memories. These weren't even necessarily memories of just what someone would consider like abuse or something that, uh, you know, our brain from an aspect of protecting us from trauma would hide. They were simply things that I didn't even have the vernacular to articulate. So I was remembering and having nightmares of being in the labs, um, being surrounded with people that I learned to recognize and learned to actually remember names. And, um, all of this went on for about a period of about two months where I was having severe PTSD, remembering all these, um, childhood experiences,

• 10:13Speaker 04

  lab settings, things I didn't have the vocabulary for. And then I eventually, um, just began investigating my own past because, uh, at a certain amount of volume of this, at a certain amount of, wow, I'm a grounded individual. I can journal about this. I'm not making this up. What is this? Uh, I began to look into my own past and what I found, uh, was that I was completely removed from the public school system for multiple years of my life. Uh, my parents were told a story that was not essentially what happened to me in person. Uh, and upon leaving the program that I was admitted into, I lost all memory of those experiences until they resurfaced into 2023.

• 11:00Jesse Michels?

  That's remarkable. So you mentioned memories of being in a lab. Now, having pieced together what your childhood actually was, what happened?

• 11:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So basically, in 2004, 2005, I was tested by gifted and talented education. People may have heard the GATE or the TAG claims. I was tested with, what was the Woodcock Test of Achievement? It's basically a good neural psychological testing platform. And I was testing incredibly gifted in certain categories. Primarily, there was a huge split between my verbal and nonverbal learning sections. But otherwise, normal kid, right? I was not diagnosed autistic. I was not diagnosed with psychological problems. I was run-of-the-mill, very normal, but highly gifted when it came to some of my applications in academia.

• 11:54Speaker 04

  That started this runaway process where a team of psychologists, which, again, names, records, all of this is documented, but still leave some anonymity here in hopes that there is some justice later on in life. A team of psychologists began this relationship, working with me, actually coming into the school system around 2005, to better understand how my brain worked. In reality, as a young child, this was all around the fourth grade, so I'm about age nine now. I was being told to not tell anyone about this. I was being told that, you know, I was a very special kid. I had a very special brain and no one else would understand.

• 12:36Speaker 04

  So essentially, what this started was GATE was this identifier that said, hey, there's something very special that's happening with me. After that happened, a whole bunch of psychologists began a routine of working with me, not from the school system, but coming into the school system. And essentially, started this like internal grooming process with me, where I would be separated and basically encouraged to keep this a secret as this progression happened. So that carried on for a few years. And if you can imagine, like, take yourself back to elementary school. I didn't really know what to make of this. It was just a lot of testing. There wasn't necessarily anything bad happening to me.

• 13:16Jesse Michels?

  Would they come to class and just kind of pluck you from class?

• 13:19Speaker 04

  I would get removed from class. So a phone call would come in, hey, Jordan's got to come down to, you know, so and so's office. And that's where I would spend maybe, you know, six hours or sometimes a full day.

• 13:29Jesse Michels?

  And where did you grow up?

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Springville, New York.

• 13:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 13:32Speaker 04

  Yep, small rural town in Western New York, upstate area. Very small, like graduating class of about 120 kids.

• 13:39Jesse Michels?

  And you're like, what, like 10 years oldish?

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Yep, started around age nine. And for the course of this, as I kind of described, this was between the ages of nine and 14.

• 13:48Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And so when you say, you know, kind of they're saying, Jordan, we want to know how your brain works. And that, you know, you mentioned the word grooming. What exactly are they doing?

• 13:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, so they were very interested. So a couple of things that I can kind of, you know, give some more context on. One, I was testing very highly in these certain categories. Two, I had a very, kind of strong ability to visualize. So for example, like at age nine, one of the things that these psychologists were fascinated about was my ability to spell because I was spelling at like a college level. And for me, I had this ability to where I could just visualize a word, right? So it was just kind of in my mind's eye. I didn't know, I thought every kid did this, right? I could picture a word in my mind and then break apart the letters piece by piece. And as I would tell these psychologists this, they were trying to understand how I was exhibiting some of these behaviors.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Like they knew what was happening. They were fascinated by it, right? The, the ability to visualize was something that was a strong point of the later parts of the program that I progressed into. But at this point, it was just mainly, hey, we want to understand how you're doing some of these things. You're testing very specific. Sit with us, build a relationship with us. And as this progressed. What was happening to me is I was kind of becoming more and more isolated from the rest of the kids, the rest of my teachers. As you know, you can kind of look in my investigation level of this, my teachers were not told what was going on either, right? Nor was the full category given to the school district. It just looked like I had a bunch of absences, I was being pulled from classes.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  No one really knew who was pressing the button, right? Who really was the psychologist who sent them, etc. All of this continued within the public school system to where I was just being tested. Relationship was being formed. Until about like age 12, so getting into like sixth, seventh grade, I began to recognize that like something wasn't right here. No, the rest of my friends weren't doing this. I wanted to kind of go be normal. I didn't get what any of this was going for. And at the same time, as I was kind of like pushing back almost with these people that were coming in to meet with me, my mother and father at the time, you know, were basically

• 16:08Speaker 04

  told that I needed to leave the public school system. And it wasn't because I was a special kid. It was because I had grown so unstable that I could no longer be in the public school system. And essentially, a whole mental health diagnoses overlay came on board around like 2010 that provide the justification to remove me from the public school system, whether my parents wanted it or not. And that started my basically academic attendance in this two-year program outside of the public school system.

• 16:43Jesse Michels?

  But to back up real quick, you were fine.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  I was fine. I was fine.

• 16:48Jesse Michels?

  So the mental health thing was a cover for them to remove you. It was an excuse. And how did your parents react to all of this?

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Terrified. My mother at the time was trying to remove me, you know, from the school district, not having luck. We tried to move at one point, didn't have luck. I was refusing to go to school at one point and, you know, people from the school district were actually showing up and removing me from the house. Like it was Stranger Things level stuff.

• 17:16Jesse Michels?

  That's insane. It really is like the show Stranger Things in real life, which is based on the Montauk Experiment. I think a lot of people at this juncture in the interview are probably resonating with some of the stuff you're saying. There are plenty of gate kids out there and this seems like the initial layers of, you know, what you've experienced. You experienced much deeper stuff, but you know, there are people out there who have, they have to take the pink drink and they, you know, missed a, they have a year gap in their knowledge of their elementary school. And so.

• 17:49Speaker 04

  100%, yeah, 100%. And for those kids, right, the other gay people, you know, what I'm ultimately describing is like, gate serves as this kind of like outside edge, almost recruitment, right? Or almost like identifying mechanism. So, so many people are tested within gifted and talented education. Not everyone progresses in further. So like, for example, as I'm meeting with all these psychologists early years, I was enrolled in gate, right? Like I was in the gate classroom, I drank the pink drink. It's just that there was a progression of more. And then getting up to this part of the story in 2008, this was like the public school system in the gate classroom could no longer provide the cover

• 18:34Speaker 04

  for what they wanted to do experimentation wise. So to do that, you remove that person from that area. You provide some cover justification on why you're doing that. And that game began a two-year journey to where I attended school into a nondescript, since been shut down, sued six ways to Sunday, school that was from the outside serving neurodivergent and behavioral health kids. But on the inside was supporting a mission for defense contractor research for psychic potential development.

• 19:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay, wild. What's the name of that facility?

• 19:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. No longer exists now, but at the time it was called Baker Victory Services.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  This center provides specialized services for students with autism or cognitive disabilities paired with mental health diagnoses.

• 19:25Speaker 04

  So on the outside looking in, this facility was serving autistic kids, nonverbals, other people with behavioral health. They had nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists, all on staff in this school. Think like special education, 811 classroom, only 40 kids total in the facility. So just like highly structured support.

• 19:46Speaker 06

  Golden shovels marked the start of construction of the new $16 million facility at Baker Victory Services.

• 19:52Jesse Michels?

  There's a lot of people watching. They might be thinking, okay, this Baker Victory Services, I'm gonna go search it. They search it and they see this organization that seems to still be operational today. What's going on with that?

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a really good question. So Baker Victory Services still exists today. It's a much larger organization serving a lot of other purposes, which are like good, right? The organization itself was not the problem. It was the exact location and kind of the element that I was in. So if you want the exact address, like, it's very hard to dig up because the facility is closed today. But it was like 650 Ridge Road. It was a small, nondescript building that was known as a day treatment center.

• 20:34Jesse Michels?

  650 Ridge Road.

• 20:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 20:36Jesse Michels?

  And that was like a subsidiary of this Baker Victory Services.

• 20:41Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 20:41Jesse Michels?

  Got it.

• 20:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:42Jesse Michels?

  So it's almost like that was used as a shell for this other kind of rogue cutout organization.

• 20:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, now you're talking. And again, like even in that facility, legitimate things happening, right? Legitimate treatment happening for kids that needed it. However, there was just this rogue element that was operating out of it that supported the program that I was involved with.

• 21:02Jesse Michels?

  But even with open source research, you do get hints of some malfeasance, right?

• 21:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, you could like, it's not hard to find, right? I think like the supervisor was arrested, like 210 felonies, I think the news article reads for like article manipulation or record manipulation. There's a $100 million lawsuit that got settled due to just this huge claim of sexual abuse over the years.

• 21:25Speaker 05

  O L V Human Services says three employees at the Victory Learning Center in Lackawanna are now on leave over those allegations of physically mistreating students.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  I would like to say there's a lot of smoke, right? You don't really necessarily need to find the fire. You can just look and see that there's been a history of problems at the place.

• 21:44Jesse Michels?

  That's a lot of smoke. A hundred million dollar lawsuit over sexual abuse and 210 felonies and falsifying records.

• 21:52Speaker 07

  We have a model that works for these young people. And it allows them to be the best they can be and go on and live lives just like you and I.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  You know, what this looked like is, you know, I would attend school like a normal kid for like two to three days a week. And then for the other two to three days a week, depending on that, I was working heavily with a team of psychologists, researchers, psychiatrists, onto some of the tasks that we can get into.

• 22:17Jesse Michels?

  So you're, you're, you're at this facility and they're, they're, they've kind of realized that you're really talented, even within this kind of group of neurodivergent kids. And then they take you down to this, this basement. And what are they doing there as opposed to kind of the, the, the top level?

• 22:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. So when I first got into this, um, you know, facility at the time for like, there was a period about like two to three months where like things were normal, where I wasn't doing the extracurricular, you know, ESP exercises. The weird psychologists that were coming to see me and the public school system were gone and no longer seeing me. So at the time I was like, I'm rescued, right? The weird stuff has stopped.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  Two months later, a team of interns get hired and this team of interns specifically work on me in my case. And the same process that I described, like in the public school system, uh, kind of restarts. So new person comes in, uh, positions himself as a psychologist and as a therapist, you know, and begins working with me to better understand my relationship with what we called at the time ESP.

• 23:29Jesse Michels?

  And do you remember their names?

• 23:31Speaker 04

  Or? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Without, like I said, you know, I'm very hopeful that, you know, our establishment, our government will do something from an investigation standpoint, you know, if they're willing to really take a stab at this. But let's call it Meg. Meg was my one-on-one trainer slash therapist.

• 23:50Jesse Michels?

  Okay. And you've provided this information, by the way, to the Senate Select Intelligence Committee? Is that right?

• 23:56Speaker 04

  I've provided this information to, you know, past members of Senate Select Intelligence Committee. I've provided it to numerous three-letter agencies. I've briefed them, given them the locations, the names, et cetera, throughout my tenure of really working in the background of disclosure, fighting the good fight alongside guys like David Grush and et cetera. And to this point, nothing has happened.

• 24:21Jesse Michels?

  That's really frustrating and annoying. And hopefully after this episode, something does happen. But, uh, um, so this Baker Victory Services, this organization, it's also a Catholic church or it's affiliated with the Catholic Church?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, affiliated affiliated by it. So there was the, I believe it's termed the Father Baker Organization in Western New York. So just think like Catholic nonprofit, you know, doing like good things. This was meant to serve more of the foster home community as well as, you know, just develop a community resource for kids that weren't plugging well into the public school system. So it was a little bit normal where you may see like nonprofits step into like special education, get accredited to like support the school system. So it wasn't like a literal Catholic school or Catholic church. It just more or less organizationally existed within that umbrella.

• 25:14Jesse Michels?

  Gotcha. And so they realize, okay, Jordan, you are like extremely talented at some of this, you know, extrasensory perception stuff. They take you to the basement and what, what happens there?

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, I don't want to make it sound too strange of things. Yeah. Like it wasn't like going to the basement.

• 25:31Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 25:31Speaker 04

  You know, like the facility itself, right? Super nondescript, didn't look like a school. You never know it was there. You know, like. Two thousand and eight, highly secure, like the entire thing had components that would be like comparable to what people have called like a skiff before, right? So badge in, badge out, RFID everywhere, no electronics, you know, in the building, even as a kid, right?

• 25:56Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 25:56Speaker 04

  Couldn't bring your PSP in, you couldn't bring-

• 25:58Jesse Michels?

  It's like a Faraday cage.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Completely. High level of security at this place. And I can kind of get into some more levels of security that I experienced, you know, as a kid, because as I'm telling this, you know, I've gotten to a point of healing and integration. And now, as you know, right, like trying to fight the good fight to do better about this. But like, don't mistake the, you know, level of like healing that I've done to, you know, really reflect like the terror that actually this whole entire experience was like in childhood. You know, essentially, it was like being stuck in a, you know, a facility where you had no control, right? There were things very akin to, I don't want to really say torture, but you know, in some respects,

• 26:44Speaker 04

  being given medications and substances and things that I don't even know for purposes of experimentation, like that's a problem. You know, that's a big problem.

• 26:53Jesse Michels?

  It's a huge problem. Well, it's a huge problem for this to happen to you over multiple years. And for them to kind of be grooming you at your school and for your parents to push back to the point of wanting to move and take you out of the school system. And for them to keep coming back, like the levels of coordination implied here are deep.

• 27:15Speaker 04

  Deep level, you know, and it's even beyond that. Like I can tell, you know, later in the story, I'll get into some examples of like, well, hey, if you were a kid, why didn't you try to, you know, do something about this? I did, right? It's like many times in some of the more like rigorous experiments, I would like get out, call 911 from the school facility, but the lines were surveilled. So you would get through to 911 and then immediately an operator would take over and be like, hey, sorry, someone from the school, one of the kids is like- Prank dialing nine one ones. So there was like no way in or out of any of this.

• 27:52Jesse Michels?

  Also, you're a kid and when you're a kid, you can get conditioned into, you know, feeling some sort of Stockholm syndrome. And you're told, no, we're doing this for your benefit or whatever. You're really highly impressionable. And you mentioned too, that they gave you, there's like this critical window of heightened kind of extrasensory perception ability. And it's before puberty and they would give you puberty blockers to sort of enhance this.

• 28:20Speaker 04

  There was all sorts of stuff being administered to me while I was in there, um, you know, like on paper, right? Like, so looking back on my own records, like there were, I think, over a dozen antipsychotics that I was on during these like two years. So things like halal, Zoloft, like just, just to name a few, just a ridiculous amount of medications. That does not reflect what was being administered inside the facility that my parents didn't know about. There were other things that I was being taken. There was other things for specific sessions, right? That would be given that I don't even know. You know, when it comes to the, the level of like, hey, there's some sigh or, you know, some ability within our brains in a prepubescent era. Yeah, that was communicated to me.

• 29:06Speaker 04

  And I believe it has something to do with relation over like right and left hemispheres before they're fully formed during puberty. But I think essentially it's just, uh, at that younger age, I had a, um, an ability to essentially exert more than someone else that was an adult.

• 29:22Jesse Michels?

  And what sort of experiments would they have you do and what would they test you on?

• 29:27Speaker 04

  So a lot of the testing, we can kind of think, this started off very baseline of like ESP, right? So kind of like thinking about extrasensory perception and how that would show up for, for people. And I was told from like a number one day, like you can just think of all this, this was like ESP training is what essentially, um, you know, was happening to me there. For the idea of this later being utilized in like a defense establishment, um, you know, style, uh, progression funnel. But, you know, in the beginning, right? ESP and it's highly. Structured for each person. And that's what I would be told, right? Like, for example, they would be giving me a lot of tests and a lot of experiments and like seeing how I respond.

• 30:09Speaker 04

  Or seeing how I would apply this because there was no like. Rubric or there was no like cheat sheet on like you do the same thing every time and it works the same way for everyone. I was instead told that everyone's highly unique and you need to kind of develop your own way of doing this. Once you have your own way of doing this, we'll help you amplify it. That's kind of a way to think about that. So for example, a lot of the very early on sessions. Would be understanding my abilities. How are they showing up from a cognitive perspective? Did I process information more kinesthetically, right? Like, was it more I feel things in my body? Was I processing it more auditory, right? Like, hey, telepathy, I hear it, right?

• 30:54Speaker 04

  Or in my case, I was a highly visual person, right? So I had the ability to. Get out of my body, see in the other room, see things from. You know, a distance, right? And kind of shift my awareness visually. So for the progression of most of the time in these two years, I was highly working on visual abilities.

• 31:15Jesse Michels?

  So sort of similar to remote viewing programs or, you know, astral projection or out of body. Things like that.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. Yeah. So. We were, we were doing a lot different stuff than like you'll see from like the Stanford Research Institute or like the Stargate. Area where you see a lot of like CRV techniques, right? Like control, repeatable, follow a technical process. I was given a whole kind of different regiment of like training and teaching that kind of. Rely primarily on getting our subconscious mind to believe that something was possible. And I can kind of go into this in a little bit more detail. So. For like a typical remote viewing exercise, you're given a target, you may have a protocol, maybe you're doing some meditation or some. You know, bilateral stimulation or auditory stuff to help you take information out of that target.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  You might see it visually, you might see it otherwise. Otherwise, you're taking information, you know, kind of from the field.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  In my. Training, they were more interested with getting me to subconsciously believe that awareness is essentially the substrate of this entire universe. And our awareness can shift into any other piece of awareness in this underlying universe. So what this would mean is like, instead of trying to remote view into a room, or let's say I remote viewed into a hallway, but I was having issues of getting through a door. There was a lot of subconscious training to basically help me understand that my awareness could become the door. I could become the room. I could become the filing cabinet where the documents are in, and then extract the information that way.

• 32:57Speaker 04

  So it was a lot less viewing. It was a lot more manipulating your own awareness to become the things that we see in the universe.

• 33:05Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. So it's almost like a pan-psychist worldview or something where maybe everything is somewhat conscious or everything is at least awareness. And you can port your own awareness into what we think of as even inanimate unconscious objects.

• 33:20Speaker 04

  100% Yeah, yeah. So it's like the underlying substrate of the universe as we want to take it back. Whether it's awareness or it is this undefined substrate, it is accessible, malleable, and reflexive to awareness. So you can either A, place your awareness in it, or you could perhaps exert some control by shifting your awareness.

• 33:41Jesse Michels?

  It's either a possible vessel for awareness, or it's awareness itself, or it's somehow compatible with awareness.

• 33:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. I tell this story too for a lot of people, like, you know, as we get into like consciousness research now, I often use the analogy that like consciousness, you can perceive more as like a vehicle. Imagine a car, four tires, right, and a steering wheel. And that's how you can kind of think is consciousness. It's like the vehicle that gets driven. However, awareness is actually what's sitting in the driver's seat of the car. Right? So a lot of things can hold consciousness, but awareness is actually that kind of like universal substrate of like the is. And when you Follow that perception better, you can kind of better understand, well, like, how could you get out of your body? How could you shift into something? Well, it's actually not necessarily consciousness.

• 34:32Speaker 04

  It's like, that's the holder and the vehicle and the container. But there's awareness, that's a step deep.

• 34:37Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. So what sort of specifically they would say, okay, remote view what's in the other room? Or would they give you a target like in, you know, we hear about in kind of traditional military remote viewing programs?

• 34:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, all sorts of different, all sorts of different exercises. I would be given targets. A lot of this was like testing, right? So it's like there, there were in terms of like the regimented aspect, like they did have these exercises kind of mapped out. For a lot of the remote viewing or like the astral projections, the way that we were doing it, like I just described, we were actually doing it with a partner. So like Meg, in that example, would often like walk through what we call the relaxation exercise, right? But in reality was some type of auditory stimulation, right? The headphones, different binaural beats that were helping me access, you know, different brainwave states. And then, you know, Meg would have essentially kind of like a checklist, right?

• 35:33Speaker 04

  And this checklist was to get my subconscious mind to relax. This would be like, hey, we are, um, we're flying a plane. You don't have to worry about flying the plane. All you need to do is tell me what you see, right? So I would be, you know, continuously walked down through a state of consciousness to where, you know, I was outside of my body. And there was like a partner duo team of coaching, uh, giving inputs on like, I need you to go here. What do you see, right? And then where that actually served a huge benefit is like, um, in traditional remote viewing, right? It's very common for a remote viewer to like get to a certain point and just hit a roadblock and just be like, I can't get through this. But if you have someone else in the experience with you, you can kind of riff on each other, right?

• 36:18Speaker 04

  So you can think of other out of the box solutions to get your awareness to the target, wherever you're trying to go. So everything that we were doing was highly team based. And for most of those two years, right? This was like, um, they had some.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  Outcomes that they already knew, right? And this was kind of tracking my accuracy and how good I could get.

• 36:38Jesse Michels?

  Were they using an EEG to map your electrical brain signals?

• 36:42Speaker 04

  So not for like every remote viewing, natural projection signal, but that was a key part of this, you know, development in the program. So, uh, you know, earlier on, the chair, right? I, I call it the chair, but this was where a lot of my traumatic memories actually like came back in that earlier 22. Like the ones that I really didn't understand would be me in a chair with what I now know now is like a neurofeedback EEG headset. But at the time, right, didn't have the language to articulate it. And a screen, right, with my brainwaves being shown. And I would be asked to like cycle through different cognitive applications. Like, hey, visualize something or, you know, try to communicate, you know, with the plant, right? Whatever type of, uh, you know, ESP level, um, thing we were doing.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  And they were watching my brainwave signals. And then I would be asked at certain times to be like, hey, whatever you just did two seconds ago, I need you to repeat that. So they were highly interested, uh, in theta spikes as well as gamma spikes. And there was some level of neurofeedback being used to like reinforce this. So as I would actually like exert, hey, I visualized in a unique way. Well, that produced a gamma spike. They were interested in how can we get that to hold longer?

• 37:55Jesse Michels?

  Why do you think theta and gamma were interesting to them?

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Just deeper levels of like neuron level of, um, uh, like symbiosis. Like for example, like in a gamma spike or when the brain's really operating like at a gamma level. It's almost as if like every neuron's beginning to synchronize and almost fire at the same time. So instead of just having a reduced brainwave state, right? You're having essentially like this is where I'm not a neurologist. I'm not a neuroscientist, just to be very clear here. Uh, I'm butchering this up just from my own understanding. But basically I think that there's a high level of amplitude when it comes to ESP level activities when somebody can get into a gamma state.

• 38:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's a, it's extremely high frequency. And like, like, you know, one of the highest. And it's interesting that you were saying that they wanted you to access your subconscious. It's almost like undergirding your conscious thoughts are these subconscious beliefs.

• 38:57Speaker 04

  I don't want to interrupt, but

• 38:58Jesse Michels?

  No, please.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  No, just to add on that. So like, that's a huge key part of like any type of psychic development. If your subconscious does not believe that whatever you're doing is possible, then your conscious mind will not allow it to be possible. Your subconscious has to believe it, right? It's like belief almost equals reality in this regard. And I think this applies to like a lot of people when they hear about psychic phenomena, they hear about UFOs or UAP. Like, there very well may be a cognitive filter that we don't yet have mapped, right? And like, why do some people experience some things? Why do some people see a UAP but some don't, right? There might literally be like a subconscious protective mechanism where if your subconscious mind doesn't believe that it's possible, then it's not going to become possible in your reality, your experience or perception.

• 39:43Speaker 04

  And I believe that to be true just because of how much work went into getting, you know, me trained on the subconscious level. If you can do this, you can remove you, you can shift your awareness, you can do all these things, you have to believe it.

• 39:56Jesse Michels?

  One of my favorite quotes is on Reber's own, "The eyes can only see what the mind can comprehend." And that's, you know, I think this beautiful and very telling sort of, and they do, they do these tests where it's, you know, did you see the gorilla walking across the room? Like you were counting the amount of dribbles in the video or whatever. And, you know, people don't see the obvious thing because they're not looking for it. So attention is really important. And they even get into the reticular activation system in the brain and why that is. There are all sorts of studies around that. And then hypnosis too. It's like, you can literally, you know, go to a magic show and, you know, somebody will, you know, get you into some sort of hypnotized state on stage, or you could see this in the audience.

• 40:38Jesse Michels?

  And you say, you know, hey, you're, you're stuck to the floor and all of a sudden the, the person's stuck to the floor. They, they can't move their arms apart. So the subconscious mind is extremely powerful as far as, you know, how it affects your reality. And, uh, yeah, that's interesting. So they're using biofeedback, almost some sort of like Pavlovian conditioning, or you have this partner who's kind of helping you get into these states where you can move around as far as your subconscious more freely, or you can, to put it better, you can.

• 41:14Jesse Michels?

  Actually change your subconscious beliefs. Whereas you're not, you're not getting that deep in sort of normal conscious awareness. Is that right?

• 41:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that's one way to think about it. You know, ultimately like the partner, um, you know, level dynamic of this. One, it was just kind of more useful for the training. But two, right, you had someone else that could provide a secondary perspective, right? And like, just for the viewer, like to imagine this, like, I'm, I'm in a deep, relaxed, meditative state. I'm probably like in a theta wave state. I have some level of binaural beats, right? That are helping me kind of, uh, shift my awareness out of body. However, I'm still able to communicate, right? Like through my mouth, right? I'm not like in my body. I'm visualizing, I'm way out here, but the act of talking is still kind of something that I can do. Right? And from that, I can still hear, right? The partner, uh, that's next to me.

• 42:07Speaker 04

  That can help me maybe understand, here's a way to think outside of the box. So if you get stalled, you're trying to get into a different place, trying to get into a different thing. That partner can give you a secondary perspective that's useful, that you can apply back into the experience. Um, so, you know, different perspectives are like, that was the key to all of this. Um, so like this, this whole different level of like projection and viewing. If you could imagine the way that you viewed whatever you were viewing, right? Whether that be from the third person perspective, or perhaps like I use the example before. If you run into a roadblock, you're trying to see what's on the other side of a door. And you can't seemingly find a way to get your awareness there.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  Well, your awareness can become that door, right? Like, that's that idea of, um, you know, seeing outside the box.

• 42:57Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. And do you get the sense that they want your skills at this facility? Because of their functional benefit for specific operations? Or is it more like, let's train Jordan up to be this child super soldier psychic?

• 43:14Speaker 04

  So as we've like now seen, right? In this, um, you know, disclosure cycle, you know, the, the pieces that have been really held back. And for good reason, right? Cause here Here I am, there's massive human rights violations. You know, but what this was serving, what was this, what was I a part of? Well, I was in a, you know, psionic development pipeline for legacy program development. So the idea being is I was not supposed to leave this program, right? This was, hey, for a few years while your brain is in the state that we can make malleable and train before puberty. We can install these things, we can get you highly specialized, whatever your specialty is going to be. And then later on, you're going to end up, you know, being sucked into deeper levels of the legacy program.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  Whether that be, you know, UAP and crash retrieval operations, or whether that be, hey, our remote viewing espionage or other level psionic applications. So this was like one of the aspects of that pipeline that would have went on to serve that.

• 44:11Jesse Michels?

  What convinces you that this was sort of a feeder for the UFO legacy program? Because I think some people listening might be like, okay, this is psi, this is extrasensory perception. Isn't that wholly separate from, you know, nuts and bolts, UFOs, reverse engineering, that sort of thing?

• 44:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, well, they're not. And mainly because I interacted at later stages with this with what we consider like recovered materials. Other language used from inside the program were actually relics, make of that what you will. But I've told the story publicly on a piece of technology that I interacted with that I'm happy to kind of tell again here. And the story is about this piece of tech.

• 44:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and this is at the same Baker.

• 44:56Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. Yeah, so this was brought in, so this tech, whenever we worked with tech, it never existed in the facility. What would happen is there would be a team that would bring it in, highly specialized, highly structured. Never see these people, I wasn't allowed to interact with them, but essentially it'd be like eight security personnel and a huge box. You know, and then I would be in the room with a team of people watching me. And they were utilizing me essentially in the experience that I'll get to here next. To better understand how something worked that wouldn't communicate with them, but would actually communicate.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  Telepathically to people with certain types of consciousness, and I was one of them. And what we'll find as disclosure continues, or as we already know from people that have spoken out like Jacob Barber and others, is that consciousness is actually the root of disclosure. Consciousness is the root of UAP and UFO phenomena. It's not necessarily a materialistic aspect. It's that there's something far more, whether you want to consider it dimensional or not, that is taking on a materialistic form. But consciousness is the core piece of all of it. So you begin to see the world not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in.

• 46:14Speaker 04

  You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our current level of consciousness. So here's another interesting, you know, kind of story that ties into this because in that program that I worked on, right? We also worked with something called RNGs, right? A random number generators. And for those that aren't familiar, right? It's, you know, many different ways to build RNGs. Some are better than others. I won't get into the details, but just think random number generator, right? We, as in I, would have the ability to influence it with my thoughts. And this was one of the ways that they like very early tested. You know, was this person psychically active?

• 46:56Speaker 04

  Could they have an effect on that field that I'm describing? And even though this is technological, a random number generator, there are examples where I personally and watched other kids push them sigmas, sigmas of multitudes and held for hours just by using our thoughts.

• 47:13Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Yeah, so you can, you can standard deviations of changes on these things that are supposed to be tied to random quantum mechanical events. So things like radioactive isotope decay or, you know, double slit experiment where you'd expect a 50 50 on, you know, the left slit, the right slit. And, you know, that is tied to like, you know, what's a, you know, binary computer where you have ones and zeros. And you can, what you're saying is you can affect it in a really statistically significant way. To get a lot of ones or a lot of zeros.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, it's actually like one of the most fun things to teach. You know, that you can actually do this as an individual, like you can go find a flash RNG. You can go find an RNG online. We're building an RNG later in our app that we'll kind of get to later in this episode. But you can test your own ability to do this, right? And you can figure out and hone in that own intuitive signal. There's not, again, a one size fits all that works for everyone. Some people are like, wow, I kinesthetically imagine myself vibrating and then the RNG moves. For someone else, it's I think of love, right? And then the RNG moves like everyone has the kind of their own unique signals that seem to affect and have a better relationship with the field around us.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  But like, that's one of the most interesting things that I think people, when they begin like looking into psi or they're hearing about past psychic stuff, they want to see, look, there's no data, there's no nothing. And I'm not going to say that that proves some mechanism or some exact connection of why and how. But there's definitely a correlation.

• 48:45Jesse Michels?

  There's definitely correlation and there's actually a ton of data.

• 48:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:48Jesse Michels?

  There's a ton of data from the Princeton, you know, parapsychology lab, the Parilab, the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab, which was founded by Bob John, who was the dean of the engineering school, who, you know, a lot of whose, you know, plasma propulsion exists today in satellites, was very well respected and studied this stuff for decades from 78 to 2007 or something. And came out being like, without a shadow of a doubt, this is real. And he would engage with top level physicists and they would say things like, oh, it was survivorship bias and file drawer and, you know, you're, you're making this up. And he'd say, no, look at the data. And sort of you end up in these sort of infinite loop things where they say, it can't be.

• 49:33Jesse Michels?

  And he was like, no, it is. And, and it's wholly consistent with the, you know, Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, that the observer collapses the wave function. It's just that the observer, we have no model now for which, you know, other than, you know, the square of the amplitude, which is, you know, the likelihood, the probability that you get.

• 49:54Jesse Michels?

  A certain eigenstate. We have no mechanistic understanding of which eigenstate, which state in a wave function gets picked. But anyway, I do want to get back to the court because we left people very excited, I'm sure, about this relic, which was, it was, what did it look like exactly?

• 50:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So my first introduction of this was actually not in the facility. Okay. I think that my interaction and the experience that I'm going to describe here was highly paramount into me getting removed from the public school system and into the facility. It was almost like a check. But basically, I had, as I described, one of those psychologists, right, that were still coming to see me in the public school system. I was taken out and I was actually brought to his office. Okay, right? And as I walked into his office, right, just think, normal blending in residential neighborhood, run-of-the-mill psychologist. This isn't deep underground military base. It's just super run-of-the-mill.

• 50:53Speaker 04

  I walk in, I'm being instructed to, you know, go see, you know, go see the doctor. And as I opened the door, the first thing that I noticed is like, well, even before I opened the door, in the hallway leading into where the therapy office was, I noticed that there was like two people at the end of the hallway that I've never seen before. Plainclothes dressed, just like two big dudes. I'm like, that's weird. And as they opened the door and I get brought in, immediately, there's my doctor, the psychologist, a woman that I've never seen before, glasses, business professional, dressed, skirt, like, has a clipboard, and she's sitting down next to them, like on a couch together.

• 51:37Jesse Michels?

  And is this before or after the Baker Victory Services facility?

• 51:41Speaker 04

  This is three months before I got put into Baker Victory.

• 51:44Jesse Michels?

  Okay, got it.

• 51:45Speaker 04

  This is three months.

• 51:46Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  And this is just run-of-the-mill. I get pulled out of the psychologist, get pulled out of the school system, going to see the psychologist, get brought in the office, this happens. Okay. So, yep, there's people in the hallway, never seen before. There's my psychologist and then there's also this, this female, right? Clipboard will not make eye contact with me like weirdly enough, like won't even acknowledge my existence and I felt that was like super odd. And then there's a few other people, a few other just like big males, again like plain clothed in the room, like looking out the windows in this office. In the center, like think table, maybe combined size if you put these together. There's a table, so couch, table, people over here. I'm asked to kind of go take a seat next to this table.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  There's what in my young mind, I would call a blanket, right? Over an object that I can't make out over this like coffee table. Looking backwards now, like the blanket was like some type of Faraday shielding, right? Some type of like electromagnetic shielding or something. But my psychologist who I knew, right? Begins talking to me. None of the other people in the room will talk to me. The female won't, no one's, this is what was just like very eerie for me at the time. But the psychologist is like, hi, Jordan, like, hey, we have something really special for you today. You don't have to do anything. We just want you to tell us what you think of something, right? We're going to show it to you again. You don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it, right?

• 53:14Speaker 04

  And I'm like already traumatized, nervous, what's happening? Okay. This again. So some, I think it was the female, she pulls the blanket, like the Faraday shielding off from the coffee table. And sitting at the center of the coffee table on a pedestal, right? Like a three-pronged pedestal is what I would describe as a, think of a wizard's orb. Like quite seriously, little bit smaller than a basketball, has a defined shell, clear looking like wizard's ball, right? Now here's what's unique about this, okay? It has a defined shell. It's a literal crystal orb, but the inside of this orb, for lack of a better word, was alive.

• 53:58Speaker 04

  So it had a structure that if you could imagine almost like, if you were to imagine Jupiter in your mind and Jupiter's like swirling atmosphere, imagine- That inside the sphere, but highly white, highly crystallized, highly like almost you're looking into a VVS diamond. It's fractalized, it's swirling and it's emitting its own light source. Right? So there's this, it's fixed defined shell, crystal orb, crystal sphere. There's this inside structure that for, I can only really attribute to, it is alive. It, it is alive.

• 54:32Jesse Michels?

  How big is it?

• 54:33Speaker 04

  A little bit smaller than a basketball, a little bit smaller than a basketball. So like, you know, maybe take a quarter off of your globe on that side.

• 54:40Jesse Michels?

  And what color?

• 54:41Speaker 04

  Uh, think like white diamond.

• 54:45Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 54:46Speaker 04

  The color was really hard on this because it was almost like, think of your studio lights almost actually. It was like this fractalized light. Inside of it and outside of it, there wasn't really like a color. It was just this white pure light.

• 55:00Speaker 04

  And it's emitting light out of it, right? What's interesting, the first thing that I noticed is the psychologist goes like, hey, we want you, you don't have to do anything. Just tell me what you think about it. And I look at it, right? So I actually take my two eyes and I lock eye contact with this thing. And as I locked eye contact with it, the inside structure that I described, right? That was like fractalized, like Jupiter's atmosphere kind of swirling. It adapts and it like changes and it's almost as if this object, as I'm looking at it, is now looking back at me. Right? So that is the first thing that I noticed. This happens within like two seconds. And when that happens, I actually become like really scared because I also began feeling this somatic sensation.

• 55:45Speaker 04

  I felt it very much like literally in my brain. Where I almost felt like this thing was coming into me and it, and it made me like terrified. I didn't ever feel that sensation. It wasn't telepathy. It was like, hey, this thing is almost linking with you is the way that I actually felt. And I was just like highly terrified of it. I noticed that as I moved my eyes back and forth, right? This inside structure. Was actually like mirroring my eye movement. And that lasted for 30 seconds and the blanket was put back over the thing. And the psychologist, his words to me were like, wow, you did great. You did great. You did great. You don't have to do anything. It picks who it likes and I think it likes you.

• 56:32Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 56:35Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  And that was the start of my relationship with Sylvia.

• 56:42Jesse Michels?

  They named the orb Sylvia?

• 56:45Speaker 04

  It was her name. Yeah, it was her name.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  And I mean that mainly because as I later, you know, the start of this relationship to where essentially the people in the program had this thing. I don't know where it came from. I don't know where this crystal orb came from. I don't. It was never told me. The sentient consciousness, as I'll get into and expand as I interact with this, never told me where it was from.

• 57:12Speaker 04

  It wasn't like, oh, we found this from a spacecraft or we dug this up over anywhere. I will note that the people within the program, the people that were actually shepherding this thing around, didn't call it tech. They called it a relic.

• 57:26Jesse Michels?

  Called it a relic?

• 57:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:27Jesse Michels?

  And they said its name is Sylvia, or did it transmit its name to you?

• 57:31Speaker 04

  So that was my first time interacting with it like locally, right? So it was in the room with me. I had this really quick, like 30 second make eye contact. It looks at me. I could feel it, right? Like, that was it. That was it. Now, fast forward, like three months later, now I'm back in this facility. I have this trainer Meg, right? As we're exploring ESP, she brings up, like, hey, I heard you met Sylvia. Right? And like, can you recall that experience? And I was brought into like another relaxation exercise.

• 58:08Jesse Michels?

  She says, I heard you met Sylvia, that orb thing. Her name is Sylvia.

• 58:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, to back up, there was some context in that conversation. I heard that you were introduced to something, right? And I was actually brought into like this relaxation exercise with Meg. And she was like, do you know what its name is? And as I'm in this relaxation exercise, I could take myself out of body and I almost like make contact. So it's like as if once I was physically linked with this, you know, like device relic, whatever you want to call it. It was like it developed like a tunnel or a pathway to where like I could communicate with it back. And this began a longer process throughout the program to where they wanted to better

• 58:55Speaker 04

  understand this thing. So that first example with Meg, I saw it once, different psychologist's office, now I'm back here in this whole programatic environment. I was actually asked, what do you think its name is? And I could like take myself into this astral environment, feel the same energy from it. And it would show up to me visually, like this very silver fractalizing type energy. And in one of the experiences, it was telling me that his name was Sylvia. So later on, it was brought back in. And I was essentially like this in between process to better understand what they couldn't understand about it. Right? So it didn't telepathically link with

• 59:39Speaker 04

  anyone else. It wouldn't talk to anyone else. They didn't know what this thing was, was basically my understanding. So I would be given tasks on like, hey, we need you to go talk to Sylvia, and we need you to come back with like a schematic. We want you to draw how it works. Or we want you to give us a blueprint on how it works. We need you to ask it these things. We need you to go back and forth.

• 1:00:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you remember anything that it transmitted to you?

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Here's the really interesting things with it. Right? So here's this crystal orb device fractal, right? It was sentient and conscious and felt alive. It didn't communicate through mouth, it communicated telepathically. As it would communicate telepathically, the first and foremost, like the most interesting thing is that it was feminine. Right? So it wasn't like, this is just an interesting dynamic, like it had, like from an auditory sensation, it had more of a female's voice. It would describe and introduce itself to me as more feminine. And I think this is like really interesting as we begin thinking about like deep dimensionality and like metaphysics and how gender perhaps like scales throughout

• 1:00:48Speaker 04

  dimensions. I don't think it goes away. Right? I think like here, this third dimension, human experience, it's like, yeah, you're male or female, right? And fixed or, you know, some fluidity between that. But perhaps as you scale up outside of a body, or you're like a ascended consciousness, or you're wherever, whatever Sylvia is, it's that gender was more of a spectrum. It wasn't like this fixed thing. And that was be something that was communicated to me. Also, it was essentially told to me in one of the earlier sessions that Sylvia represented more of this thing that we would equate to like a human thought form. And in the deepest communication session that I had with it, it was being shown to me that like Sylvia

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  was human thoughts, almost we as humans, everything we create, everything we think, everything we're consciously experiencing takes on some form somewhere else. And this energy or this thing is actually very connected to our own thoughts. Right? So it's like, as we imagine things, maybe they become real. Right? It was kind of like the lesson in all of this. And then from that point forward, everything that the program staff are trying to get out of it, like, how does it work? Jordan, you know, draw schematics of it. It didn't want to work with them. So it would be like, they would bring it in. I would go in with a session, nothing would really happen and they would just get upset with me.

• 1:02:18Speaker 04

  Like go back and try again. Right? And that was really, from what I understand, a lot of the stuff that I interacted with was like, hey, they were trying to figure it out.

• 1:02:31Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it was good, evil? Did you have any context on how they acquired it?

• 1:02:35Speaker 04

  No idea how they acquired it. It itself, this is also like very interesting, right? Like, well, hey, like, why would this, whatever it is, interdimensional, different sentient life thing? Like, why would it let this happen to you? It was 100% neutral. It is, it was the epitome of like neutrality. Like it, it did not take sides. It didn't like, it was just so neutral is what was interesting. So, which I would think like, again, as you, you know, almost ascend up in like awareness levels, you have to become non dualistic. You have to become neutral. So it was like, yeah, was this bad? Well, it looks bad, right? In that moment, but it's who defines what's good, bad and evil. Right?

• 1:03:18Speaker 04

  Like there is no fixed state in duality.

• 1:03:21Jesse Michels?

  That is fascinating. Do you still feel somewhat entangled with this object?

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Uh, I don't. I don't. You know, I don't. It's been interesting because I'm curious, right? Like, I'm curious, is it still kicking around some defense contractors, you know, like bunker? But I don't know.

• 1:03:43Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever heard of anything like it?

• 1:03:46Speaker 04

  No, no, I've never. The best comparison also I can kind of give you, which is interesting, is, what is it? The Salvatore del Mundi Da Vinci's painting of Christ, right? If you're familiar with that, in that photo, Christ is like holding this crystallized orb, right? I believe it's in his left or his right hand. It was very similar like that size, right? And again, more fractalized, but I always find that interesting. And because of the language that was being used as relic, like perhaps this isn't something from, you know, NHI or something that crashed here, like maybe these things have been here a long time,

• 1:04:26Speaker 04

  which also ties into thousands of years of esoteric tradition, esoteric wisdom, right? Like here we are kind of talking about, you know, for those that may not be familiar with this, I worked very closely, you know, leading up to Skywatcher with Ross Goldheart. And Ross Goldheart has reported about this experience at Esalen Institute in California last year, Big Sur, or 2024, rather, where I led a exercise, shared people the same protocols that I was taught in childhood of how to make contact with NHI, right? And we did. It was incredible. We had plasma orbs. We had essentially these blue orbs that came and think 50 yards of people,

• 1:05:10Speaker 04

  like out of the ocean, up through the air. It was amazing. It was the most incredible thing. And then also, like, let's think about a moment, like what the shamans have been talking about for 2000s of years. Think about like Native American indigenous, you know, elders, right? Who have been communicating with like blue light, you know, for thousands of years. Like all of the parallels are. Are actually beginning to come together here. So it's not that this is some necessarily, in my opinion, or my worldview, some extraterrestrial or some, you know, like very outside the self level of phenomena. It's that like, all of this is just different slices of the same pie. And consciousness and awareness is the core.

• 1:05:51Jesse Michels?

  Hmm, hmm. While you were at Baker Victory Services, did they ever have you fly a craft or lock on to a thing? And move it with your consciousness?

• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

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• 1:07:04Jesse Michels?

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• 1:09:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I, there was another aspect that they were highly interested in developing. And this was something called the Prometheus system. And for those that know the story of Prometheus, like, you know, go figure, right? The bringer of fire to humanity. Of course, they would name this such device called the Prometheus system.

• 1:09:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Speaker 04

  So I-

• 1:09:52Jesse Michels?

  I would call it the Faustian system or something.

• 1:09:56Speaker 04

  So just, just like I've described my interactions with Sylvia, right? Like highly telepathic, right? Just linking through consciousness. That seems to be exactly how most of these UAP, UFO, other materials are interacted with, right? So they're not flown with joysticks. They're flown through the mind, okay?

• 1:10:19Speaker 04

  And to tie into this, right? I would have examples to where there would be other objects. I would be sometimes brought just into the same, you know, lab environment in Ruben Baker Victory. I wasn't like on an airfield, right? But from that process of, you know, working with my brainwaves, getting in a state, it was clear that I was working with something somewhere else, right? So there were examples to where there were objects that I would be asked to shift my conscious awareness in, right? So like, let me back up. Piloting the UAP, right? Piloting whatever it is, not going to talk about descriptions or anything. Again, flown through the mind. You mesh with it consciously. How do you do that?

• 1:10:59Speaker 04

  You take your consciousness outside of your body and you become that object, right? And there's an art and a skill of doing this. So the same way that right now my consciousness feels like it's in my body, I would lay in a deep meditation. I would have some type of, you know, perhaps sedative or some type of, you know, other substance often used, different auditory aids, and shift my consciousness into said object or some vehicle and become it. And from that point of view- Actually demonstrate command and control, right? Pilot it up and down, move it left and right. And you would do that by shifting and almost taking event. We started this conversation on like observation and awareness. Well, to actually like send commands and controls and these things,

• 1:11:44Speaker 04

  you're doing that through the art of shifting your own perception and awareness. So for example, let's say there was an orb or something and I was asked to fly it. Okay, I would shift my consciousness into it. And when that would happen, I would typically experience what I would describe as like a split. If you can imagine like a split screen video game, right? This is all my mind's eye. Imagine a split screen video game where you see something on the left and something on the right. I would basically give these commands and shift my own perspective of myself and said object to get it to move. So on the left hand side, I would imagine something from the third person perspective. So imagining the object, my surroundings, what everything looks like around me.

• 1:12:29Speaker 04

  And on the right hand or the right hemisphere, I'm imagining my forward looking first person perspective. And by the art of flip flopping the two, I'm like, wanna travel here from my first person perspective. And then on my third person on my left side, I'm imagining what it looks like and I'm already there. You would actually get this thing to move, right? Now, they had a lot of EEG monitoring on me as I was doing this. And this is where the Prometheus system would come in, right? So a highly gifted psychic kid can mesh their consciousness and get said object or UAP to move. Well, how do we give that power to an air force guy, right? Who's not have an open consciousness, does not have an open heart.

• 1:13:10Speaker 04

  So there was something actually happening at the brainwave level, you know, something, what entanglements were showing, what brainwave spikes were showing, I don't know. But from what I understand, what they were trying to do is build a brain neural interface, right? So watching my brainwaves as I interacted with this thing. And then creating a mechanistic machine, an interface that would reproduce the brainwave signals that I was sending out. So then you could boil it back down to someone with a controller, right? So now that they have a controller, I can't do this thing myself. But as I push up, it's sending the brainwave that we know Jordan, you know, communicated and move up.

• 1:13:49Jesse Michels?

  That is wild.

• 1:13:51Speaker 04

  It's a lot quickly.

• 1:13:52Jesse Michels?

  Being, being, being used kind of like as a human joystick or as a bridge to you have the mind meld and then, ah, it's so wild. This is so crazy, but it also dovetails with this kind of book that the Pentagon censored, seven pages of redactions, the Sentinels of Ether book that Jake Barber put out pseudonymously under the, the, the pen name Alva Douglas. And it's all about this. It's all about this, you know, neural interfaces between the brain and these crafts. And that's how you fly them. That's how you actually get them to show up. And what he calls P3s, people with psionic predisposition potentials. And,

• 1:14:36Jesse Michels?

  and they're sort of flying the crafts. And then you have, like you said, they're the ones who are kind of heart centered, but they're also sometimes kind of, you know, given a lot of pharmacological aids. That's a total euphemism, you know, they're, they're drugged to, to get into these states. And then you have people from the air force, just ordinary people, using these people to fly the objects. It's really crazy.

• 1:15:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, it, it, it sounds incredibly sci-fi, but like that's the reality of it.

• 1:15:10Jesse Michels?

  That's so wild. And, and so, do you know what you're locking on to? Do you know what, what the objects are that you're locking on to? When you're sitting, you're sitting in this chair, what's, what happens?

• 1:15:22Speaker 04

  So I, I, I don't know. I don't, how would I say this? I don't know how to answer that like specifically. What I can tell you is like, there were different objects.

• 1:15:31Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:15:31Speaker 04

  So like, just like in the Skywatcher environment, right? Like we were seeing different classes of UAP.

• 1:15:36Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:15:37Speaker 04

  To my understanding.

• 1:15:40Speaker 04

  The military industrial complex has multiple classes of UAP, right? Some may be the manta ray styles, some may be the triangle, some may be this. And every person, right, almost on a consciousness level signal would perhaps made up or not made up with some of them. So it was like, I might work very well with object A.

• 1:16:00Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:00Speaker 04

  But I can't work with object B or C. And in my localized like testing and experience, like, again, this was like two years of highly standardized like preparation to get me to a point where I would have been doing that full time, right? But again, it didn't happen in my life story, thank God. So in my experiences, they were highly limited. It was just like, I got the muscle memory. They got to see that I could do it, but it wasn't like I was doing this every day. It wasn't like, hey, go take the UAP and run a mission or something like that.

• 1:16:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:31Speaker 04

  It's just, I had enough times where I ran through the process to be able to articulate it back here today.

• 1:16:37Jesse Michels?

  And for context, just for the audience, you mentioned Skywatcher. I've done a show with James Fowler, Jake Barber, who also kind of, you know, Ross Coldheart originally introduced his story to the world. He worked for a contractor that was probably Northrop Grumman. That's through my own and other people's open source research. That's not his own admission. He said, you could probably guess, so I want to make that clear. But he basically said that he retrieved a couple of crafts. One was an eight gun shaped, it had eight different sides. And the other was an egg shaped craft. And he was this helicopter pilot who went through the Air Force Combat Control Pipeline and was then sheep dipped

• 1:17:19Jesse Michels?

  or erased basically from the special forces, you know, traditional pipeline. And turned into kind of this ghost who was doing extremely sensitive missions for nuclear emergency support and with high value targets and that sort of thing. And that involved UFO crash retrievals. After he came out, he started this organization called Skywatcher. And you were a part of this and this involved. Essentially getting people with these psionic predisposition potentials to call in craft and then also calling in the craft with these sort of machine-based systems. Is that right?

• 1:17:57Speaker 04

  Yeah. So here's here to give a little bit more context here too, to kind of wrap this up for people.

• 1:18:04Speaker 04

  All of these were experiences in childhood for me, right? And like we started this like show out, I had no memory of this for a lot of years. So like 2023, things completely burned down, right? I'm having memories of this. Good luck, right? Who do you call? Hey, I think I was a part of this compartmentalized program, right? There's no, there's no resource for you. So I just did my best to, you know, find ways to psychologically get myself better without, you know, getting labeled schizophrenic, right? Without going off the deep end and without killing myself. I had a suicide attempt, you know, to be completely honest with you in January of 23, because I cannot speak to the level of disparity of like, wow,

• 1:18:45Speaker 04

  you wake up in a matter of two months and remember an entire childhood that you once forgotten? You have records, you know, describing a life that you don't remember? Like, it feels very Jason Bourne-y, but instead you're the main character in Stranger Things.

• 1:18:58Jesse Michels?

  Dude, I can only imagine. I, and I'm so grateful that you're, you're here and you're so good. You have, you know, you're on such a good wavelength and you have such a good trajectory. And I don't know how you integrate that amount of traumatic past experience in such a short period of time, especially when it comes up unprovoked. It's not like you were attempting to like

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I wasn't in the UFOs.

• 1:19:25Jesse Michels?

  Do some search of like, what's, what's causing my maladies? Oh, I'm gonna, you know, it's just, it's sort of, you know, you were a high-stress environment with startups and you had a relationship, you know, end and then

• 1:19:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:36Jesse Michels?

  Damn it.

• 1:19:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, like again, completely guided on this path, you know, as we talk about NHI and everything like all of this is really just brought me closer, you know, to my own, you know, idea and version and relationship with God, uh, you know, to see all these moments where it's like, wow, you know, it didn't quite make it. But again, to be in a situation today, to be able to articulate this and actually push the needle forward for humanity, right? Not for the military, not for the industrial complex, actually like putting the power back in our own hands. Like, yeah, that's worth living for.

• 1:20:07Jesse Michels?

  That's a beautiful thing. That's, yeah, it's amazing. And, uh, and you should be proud of yourself. And, um, yeah. So you, so this happens in 23. Yeah, go for it.

• 1:20:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this happens in 23 and it starts a long-term healing process. Um, you know, met some amazing people, you know, build some trust along the way, but just like highly independent trans journaling, highly, uh, you know, basically ways to deal with this trauma. And I started, uh, just investigating my own past, right? Like, where did this happen? Who are these people? You know, how did this all essentially happen to me? And that got to getting into like 2024. Um, and as people know, right? At this time, David Grush had stepped out, reported to Congress. Um, and I was essentially looking at like, well, here's the missing piece, right? Like I experienced it and lived it.

• 1:20:58Speaker 04

  Uh, and in 2024, after going through just a lot of healing, getting all of the supporting records, evidence, all of everything to kind of just support the credibility in my case, uh, I made contact with Ross Colehart and flew down to DC, met with Ross, you know, did the, you know, followed the same footsteps as many others, right? Did the whole testimony. And it was at that point that Ross, um, introduced me to Jacob Barber. So this was before Jacob Barber had went public. I met him, I think it was like June of 24 or something along those lines. Um, but yeah, I was developing a relationship with Ross. He was highly, highly supportive and introduced me to Jake. And he said, like, hey, here's this guy, uh,

• 1:21:40Speaker 04

  I've been working with behind the scenes. And at that point, uh, Jake was the first individual that knew what I was. Talking about that I had like truly encountered because I worked up many channels before this. I was, you know, trying to talk to state police departments, this, this, this. I was talking to other people, you know, ex-agency people. And it like really speaks to the level of compartmentalization that like aspects of the legacy program have. It's like, it's a far smaller club than most people think, far smaller club.

• 1:22:14Speaker 04

  But I finally made contact with Jake and, you know, hearing from Jake, you know, essentially, he, he experienced many similarities, you know, I, I, I think just by latitude of being involved in the operations that he was involved with, he was familiar with what I went through, you know, in childhood.

• 1:22:32Jesse Michels?

  And He was also gifted in talented education.

• 1:22:35Speaker 04

  He was.

• 1:22:35Jesse Michels?

  He was a gate kid.

• 1:22:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I think his, I think his family's highly, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot there. I was in the gate program as a kid, gate program is a program, uh, it's an acronym for gifted and talented education. And that allowed me to do a lot of things. I excelled in art and music, actually, and the sciences, uh, had entered a science contest and won a state science fair based on a project I had done. I, I won't go into too many details, he can tell his own story, but yeah, there's some similarities, you know, I, I think in, in, in many, many of the gate people's stories. But, um, I met Jake and Jake introduced me to the Skywatcher cohort, James Fowler, Alex at the time.

• 1:23:19Speaker 04

  And, you know, what really struck me was, you know, I was in this situation of like, I'm not really a whistleblower, right, but like I'm attempting to try to do right, right? I'm trying to find the right people to get an investigation open. And, you know, then you meet these wonderful guys at the top, right? Like pinnacle of special operations community, like, yeah, we've been doing this for years, right? And that was really what I, what I think a lot of people missed from the Skywatcher, you know, uh, story was they looked at it very surface level. Like also there's just a lot of very credible people who have been trying to fight the good fight and get information out, so. I elected to kind of join the team and lead the psionic operations piece of really with

• 1:24:00Speaker 04

  the principle of if our government is not going to disclose, perhaps we can create the conditions necessary, document that and you know, bring that to science and bring that to you know, the world. So we don't need our governments, right? Had an amazing time with them. Great people. Worked with some of the best operators that I've ever worked with in my life. But I've actually left the Skywatcher team last July. And the reason being highly personal for me, but I was just kind of beginning to get the sensation that we need less military, honestly, right? We need less of this kind of like wounded masculine, we're gonna go figure this out. What we actually need is like the public

• 1:24:42Speaker 04

  support. We need the next generation thinkers. We need the next generation industry to begin working on disclosure. We don't need the highly compartmented, I've worked in defense my entire life and you know, that's been my trajectory. I just don't see that being the best like next chapter for us.

• 1:24:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Also, I would say, you know, and, and I'm always of like a split mind, right? Like the, to the people who are like, there was nothing going on and they weren't provoking any sort of UFOs to appear. I'm like, no, I think they were. I think, I think there's a lot of stuff was showing up for them. And then, and that's sort of, you know, got to hold those people at bay. And then on the other side, just the idea that you can somehow subsume this ancient sacred practice of communing with these celestial objects, which has gone on since, you know, the days of Yamblikus, the Syrian, you know, Neoplatonist or Ezekiel, or you know, whatever you want to date it back to, probably before that,

• 1:25:41Jesse Michels?

  right? And you can somehow provoke these things to come and, and, and then use them in some instrumental way.

• 1:25:52Jesse Michels?

  To derive material to confer a tactical warfare advantage via an adversary just feels like the wrong framework overall. It's like, that doesn't feel like if you want, you got, you have an infinite range of things you can do with your life. Maybe not an infinite, but a wide range. Maybe, maybe don't do that.

• 1:26:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, like, so, so for example, like from the psionic, you know, portion of this. And I, I lead these experiences for people. I want to go interact, right? It's not, hey, follow this three steps. It's, it's highly heart-based. It's like, I actually need you to forget everything that you know, and I need you to open your heart as you prepare to, you know, embark on this journey to interact with something like NHI. It's, it's not, it's not mechanistic. It's, it doesn't fit the military, you know, box very well, right? So I totally agree with you. And I think, again, it's just, um, there's, there's truth and there's data and there's things on both sides of the table. You know, like a very interesting, you know, perspective without going into too much detail that I can chair here is like, from the Skywatcher cohort, right?

• 1:26:54Speaker 04

  Like the psionic operations, right? Like when the psychics were going out, when we were setting up and running a session and actually trying to elicit UAP, right? We were not successful 100% of the time at eliciting a response, right? However, every time we did elicit a response, uh, the phenomenon was highly benign, right? Like it was very neutral. It wasn't angry. It was just kind of like floating through, checking out, maybe even exhibiting some like loving behavior, right? Like actually investigating, uh, on the, you know, mechanistic dog whistle side of the things, right? It's my understanding like that was producing a result, you know, nearly 100% of the time. But it would often produce a result that was aggressive, right? Like as you saw in like episode two, right?

• 1:27:37Speaker 04

  Like flying up to the trailer, like getting highly aggressive, probing our responses, right? So like, that kind of like points to me that what we put out is also what we're going to get back.

• 1:27:48Jesse Michels?

  It's like a mirror.

• 1:27:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting.

• 1:27:51Speaker 04

  So highly supportive of, again, of like, this is why the military should not be leading this conversation.

• 1:27:56Jesse Michels?

  James Fowler on my show is a really fascinating interview. He was talking about. You know, somebody was gonna use directed energy or whatever. He said he made it clear that Skywatcher itself didn't use directed energy. But somebody was going to, at one point against one of these like hostiles, like the jellyfish UFOs, UAP, which seemed to be particularly aggressive. And it just shut down the directed energy before it even went out.

• 1:28:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Jesse Michels?

  And so it's like.

• 1:28:22Speaker 04

  I, I don't subscribe that the jellyfish are actually like hostile. I think that they're almost like an immune response. Like you see that class when you're actually putting out something that's probably not in the best interests of the field.

• 1:28:34Jesse Michels?

  Just your own BS.

• 1:28:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:28:37Jesse Michels?

  Excavated in some sort of outer form.

• 1:28:40Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:28:41Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:28:42Speaker 04

  Yeah. So again, with like reality, the phenomenon reflecting back to us. That's why it's the more that you try to take this lockdown, materialistic, like militaristic approach. I think that's what you're gonna get back.

• 1:28:55Jesse Michels?

  And because, and this is the really messed up part. And I don't even know how to talk about this, but they use electromagnetic pulse weaponry against these things. And then, so they're covered with plasma and then they sort of become inert and then they come down. Is that right? Like.

• 1:29:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, like I'll, I'll be honest with you. The way that I understand this, again, not Skywatchers.

• 1:29:18Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:19Speaker 04

  But the way that I understand legacy UAP crash retrieval operations to work. Many different styles, right? One style is, let's say they're using psionics. Okay. You're gonna take psionics, highly developed psychic aptitude. They're gonna go set up in the desert. They're going to run their protocols and processes, which are probably highly formulated on love. Right? And they're probably gonna do that in an environment where there's directed energy weapons all around. So you're almost creating this like honeypot of like, hey, we love you. Come see us, we wanna interact with you. And then let's say that thing interacts, all of a sudden they're hit with a directed energy weapon materialized and like, yeah, then it's recovered. So the real sad part of this, where like Ross Colheart, I think, talked about this a little bit already, like Area 52.

• 1:30:04Speaker 04

  Is that how everything happens? No, but I do have awareness that, yeah, like many crash retrieval operations have like operated that way.

• 1:30:12Jesse Michels?

  And then in the book Sentinels of Ether, you know, that Jake put out.

• 1:30:18Jesse Michels?

  It's like, so they recover material and then there's a mental interface as far as the reverse engineered craft as well, like getting that to fly requires the psionic assets to lock in again on the ground and then it gets those to fly?

• 1:30:34Speaker 04

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah, it's, the world gets very abstract and like very complex at that point.

• 1:30:40Jesse Michels?

  Are you, are you high confidence in that part or just like the ability for the thing to show up? Or?

• 1:30:45Speaker 04

  I'm high confidence in the fact that crash retrieval operations have shot many things with directed energy weapons.

• 1:30:55Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ. And if you're, if your consciousness is locked in as the psionic asset to the craft and that craft is getting shot, that must be a traumatic feeling.

• 1:31:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. So I experienced this. I won't go into details like when, where, or anything like that. But at one point in my own personal history, right? I experienced this. I was interacting with the phenomenon. My consciousness was co-creating, co-piloting and whatever kind of, you know,

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  manifestation of phenomenon that was showing up, right? And halfway through the process, as I was like communicating with other people, kind of demonstrating this, I felt something go wrong that I've never felt before. The way that I could kind of explain it is it felt as if my body was actually turning to stone. Didn't feel like I was getting electrocuted. It felt as if the thing that I was connected to consciously, as well as my body, was immediately turning into stone. And there was like an emergency, I felt, to get my consciousness out of this thing and back to my body. Because it felt like if I stayed, that the conduit, right? This like unseen consciousness connection was going to be like severed. And there was almost a, you know, ability for me to

• 1:32:10Speaker 04

  get stuck in this thing, right? If I didn't return back to my body. And from what I understand, the area that I was running that exercise in happened to have directed energy weapons, you know, naturally, near it. So chances are something got brought in, detected on radar, and like now- Naturally, it's looked at as an adversarial threat. So yeah, I'm very grateful to be alive and unscathed from that experience. But like, yeah, there's.

• 1:32:36Jesse Michels?

  Did you experience any sort of physiological damage from that?

• 1:32:41Speaker 04

  No, no, not gonna, I mean, pain, you know, pain, but no, not that I'm aware of.

• 1:32:46Jesse Michels?

  Like, if you were to characterize that pain, was it like, it was like a soul pain? Or was it a, was it a physical pain?

• 1:32:53Speaker 04

  Physical soul, again, imagine your body turned into stone is the best.

• 1:32:58Jesse Michels?

  Oh, God, dude.

• 1:33:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:33:00Jesse Michels?

  That is so gnarly.

• 1:33:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. And again, right? I'm not, one thing we didn't even kind of get into here, right? Is like, you know, people's perspective and underlying like background on the phenomena is like, oh, it's extraterrestrial. It's like, well, like, hold on a second. Go back to that initial analogy that I kind of provided where it's, the story's been, it's materialistic universe or a physicist. Again, I think we live in a field, right? And I think that all these dimensions are stacked, you know, with us. And it's essentially like, everything is right here, right now. And it's actually a level of consciousness and awareness and what we perceive that gives us the experience. So it's like, very possible, is this extraterrestrial? I don't know, maybe, maybe that's a portion of it.

• 1:33:45Speaker 04

  I subscribe more that it's like interdimensional, right? So perhaps there's an intelligence or an awareness that's actually fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh dimension. It's evolved away from the point of needing an ego ID. For those that aren't familiar with that, like looking at, you know, neuroscience, then it doesn't need an ego ID, doesn't need a body. Maybe it exists as this ethereal thought form, but it's actually an awareness and intelligence. And it can interact with the third dimension. And it interacts by materializing a portion of itself here, right? And maybe that's what we're seeing, you know, from the UAP side. I don't think that's all of it, but I think that's a portion. So it's like, there's extraterrestrial, there's interdimensional. Um, there's also, what if it's us? Like, I'm not completely sold on this either.

• 1:34:29Speaker 04

  And I'll point to a lot of experiments with plasma, right? Like even that excellent event that I described, when we had 30 people, highly heart centric, we had these incredible interactions with plasma orbs, right? But I'm not completely convinced that like, that could not be an extension of human consciousness, materializing itself too, right? So it's like, it's not just one size fits all. It's not as simple as like, hey, there's aliens. I think we all want this to be simple. I, I think again, the real work in understanding the phenomena is going to be in how we understand consciousness and awareness and what forms consciousness and awareness can take on.

• 1:35:07Jesse Michels?

  It's likely not the thing that we are hearing in the narrative that we're super imposing on. It's likely much weirder than that. And it could be a whole host of disparate threads. But on the plasma front, there's a great book called The New Science of Heaven by a really just polymathic, brilliant guy named Robert Temple that I've, I've been reading. And it's all about how atomic matter, physical matter is actually the exception to the rule in that, you know, the universe itself is mostly plasma. And you have these Kortolovski clouds. And you have, you even have these experiments being done where it seems like these plasmoids are in, are like cohering to heartbeats when a human walks up to them. And we have a mutual friend named Adam Curry, who does a lot of, you know, experimentation in this area as well.

• 1:35:52Jesse Michels?

  It's, it's really phenomenal. Like, so who are we to say? You know, it's almost, you have to think about this thought experiment. How many of the millions of species on earth think that they are at the top of the food chain? Probably a decent amount, unless you're constantly seeing, you know, your apex level predator that's like freaking you out.

• 1:36:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:12Jesse Michels?

  You know, a lot of them probably do. And in some cases, they might think, oh, they, they might kill us, kill me or whatever, but they're dumb. You know what I mean? So like, how many? And so who are we to say that we're, we're at the top? And then there's always a, an epistemic cap that you have. There's an umwelt that you're, you're a perceptive lens that you're seeing the world through. And that's always going to be capped. So like, And then I just interviewed an MIT neuroscientist, or MIT-trained neuroscientist at UC Irvine. His name is Don Hoffman. And his whole thing is consciousness is actually more like disembodiment is more adaptive for consciousness.

• 1:36:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:50Jesse Michels?

  So anyways.

• 1:36:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. Yeah, like the next generation of this, like, where do we go post-disclosure? Right? Well, it's like, well, yeah, on one hand, you know, the narrative up to this point has kind of been like bad government doing bad things, like, of course, right? Like, yeah, there needs to be, you know, some level of justice and research. But, you know, like, I don't think the next phase is like, hey, we're gonna be looking really far out to other planets and we're gonna repeat what Seti has done for like a thousand years. I think the real answer is like inside us. I think the answer is intrinsic. I think that the more that we actually understand how our own intelligence operates, the more we'll actually understand these disparate threads that just haven't been connected yet. I also think like the more we look to past, right, to the past,

• 1:37:36Speaker 04

  the better off we're gonna be too, because you can look at like ancient rites of passages. You can look at hermetic wisdom. You can look at all of these like just ancient things we love to kind of like keep to the side. But if you're willing to like open the thread, you realize that it's like the path to ascension, different consciousnesses, different awarenesses, different intelligences. All of this has been documented for thousands and thousands of years.

• 1:38:00Jesse Michels?

  You said something to me off air that blew my mind. Because I always, you know, obviously I systematically look at UFO stuff. And I'm always trying to figure out, are these physical objects, are they, you know, mental? You know, I'm pretty convinced that like the thread that you're on is correct. That like there's some sort of mental thing, you call them into your field. You said something so interesting to me, which is that the like. Directed energy that hits them creates a local electric field that almost calls the UFOs into physical form? Is that roughly right?

• 1:38:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, again, this is not my domain, right? This is just like my extrapolated understanding of like trying to view the perspective of what has happened, right? And like some of these scenarios that we talked about yesterday. And it's that like, perhaps think of a UAP or UFO as more of like a manifestation, right? It's like imprinted in this reality. And we took that model that we talked about yesterday of like perhaps an interdimensional, right? Intelligence or aspect of awareness, maybe in that seventh dimension, right? It's like, oh, okay, I'm gonna come, you know, interact in the third dimension in this moment of time. And I'm going to, you know, perhaps project and manifest my awareness here. That awareness takes on a certain form.

• 1:39:25Speaker 04

  That awareness could take on a plasma form, that could take on a craft, could take on an whatever, right? And from that projection, something like directed energy may actually like force that to materialize and almost become like a dense portion of this, you know, dimension that we're in, right? It's not that like, hey, that allows it to take form. What I'm really saying is like, what may have been happening in some of these scenarios is like, this is a transdimensional object that doesn't necessarily belong here, but by hitting it with like something like directed energy, you're forcing it to take form and become bound to this dimension.

• 1:40:00Jesse Michels?

  Have you heard of Eric Worgo? He wrote a book called Time Loops?

• 1:40:03Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:40:04Jesse Michels?

  He's amazing. He talks about like the soul self as being like, he calls it the long body. And it's like the, there's some sort of quantum self that's like maybe like a tesseract or something, and that is ported into the human body. And there is this burgeoning field of quantum biology, you know, even going back to 1944, I believe, Schrodinger himself, who's like the father of, you know, quantum wave function, a lot of quantum mechanics, he had a lecture series called What Is Life? And he talked about these aperiodic, you know, Seaver crystals in the DNA. And so you have to wonder like, are we tethered to something higher? And Worgo presents this really interesting model where,

• 1:40:50Jesse Michels?

  you know, in a quantum computations, you can reverse qubit positions. And so basically, even people who are serious, you know, working in, you know, on quantum computers, or probably more in the quantum mechanics interpretation world, think that maybe on the application layer of a working quantum computer, which we don't have because, you know, chips and keeping them cryonically cooled or whatever, cryogenically cooled, is the bottleneck. When we get that, maybe you could send information of a future knowledge or memory state back in time. And so then if you get into, you know, again, I don't know if this is, you know, fully verified, but like the Roger Penrose Hammerov,

• 1:41:33Jesse Michels?

  you know, tubulin of the microtubules or whatever, or something like it in the brain, where you have some sort of quantum, room temperature quantum system.

• 1:41:43Jesse Michels?

  Then your future knowledge state could send stuff back in time. And if you think about pre-sentiment, like what do we have these precocious pre-memories of? You know, the things that we have intuitions that are gonna happen. And it's like you wake up, you have a dream about the thing. It's often the most important thing and the most important as far as, you know, it being adaptable, adaptive for your survival and your evolution. So like, you know, losing a loved one or like, you know, something dangerous that could happen to you or whatever. You know, these are the things that get downloaded. And, you know, I think we're gonna end up with this consciousness model where you're like a measurement system.

• 1:42:29Jesse Michels?

  And it's like, you're like the stylus on like an LP player. And you're picking, you're picking the tracks or something.

• 1:42:35Speaker 04

  I, you know, at a just very loose level, right? Like, I subscribe to this conceptually, right? And this kind of like mirrors back the idea of time. It's almost as if like every aspect of experience already exists.

• 1:42:49Speaker 04

  In some form, right? Like if you went right or left, if you decided to do the show or didn't do the show, right? It's in that core present moment that like you as the awareness get to decide, right? So it's kind of like reality is almost this like you get to chart your own path. Perhaps there are these like predetermined, like you have to get here, you have to make XYZ decision. Everything's accessible to you, but like you only have these choices with you in the present moment, but they've actually already all happened or they already could happen. And you, as the core part of awareness, get to experience it now through your decision making, right? And the idea like, hey, maybe in the future, right of like what we perceive is linear time, right? Like you ended up in a position where it's like, this isn't the right way.

• 1:43:32Speaker 04

  You know, perhaps there is just this kind of quantum feedback loop where maybe in the present moment now, before you make that decision, you start getting synchronicities, right? That like force you to take a different decision, right? It's like, maybe all of this is this giant feedback loop.

• 1:43:47Jesse Michels?

  Not to move from such a transcendent message to a more banal subject, but I think a lot of people are left in suspense around, you know, this experience that you had. So we're kind of weaving in and out, but I love it. But you're, so you had this two-year experience at this center and it's, you know, this Victory Baker Center. And what happened? So, so are there any experiments that we're missing first off?

• 1:44:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, there's, there's many, there's many. And what I'll add to people here, right, is like, you know, from a psychological basis is like, I have a high level of dissociation over that experience and it's taking me years, right? To be able to have the recall and the integration that I do have. Outside of the dissociation, there were all sorts of substances that I was, I was essentially an experiment, right? Stuff that I don't even know, you know, stuff I still wonder like, hey, I had cancer at a young age. Like, I wonder if there's a connection there, right?

• 1:44:42Jesse Michels?

  I wonder, man. Yeah.

• 1:44:44Speaker 04

  You know, it's just kind of shitty to think about for lack of a better word. But anyways, yeah, two years I was there. The real pinnacle of this was, again, it was development. So I was in a track and the next iteration that was told to me when I was there in the school. Was that I was gonna leave this little facility that I was spent the two years in, and I was going to be enrolled in a boarding school. So I was gonna leave my parents after all. I was gonna go to a facility in Eastern New York, and I was gonna live there full time. And I was gonna get to do this stuff all the time. And I'm pretty sure that would have been the point, that I just disappear from human society and probably get thrown in the underground bunker, right? By the grace of God, at the same time, getting into 2010,

• 1:45:29Speaker 04

  and this is just for some great people, right? Like, this is some great investigation work. Ross Colthart has done a lot on this to piece this back together. But in 2010, my homeschool district, that little hometown of Springville, by grace of my mother, by grace of myself, finally petitioned the state of New York to come and look in at this facility. And apparently, for five months, the record or something goes, Baker Victory Services was refusing access to the state to come in and inspect me, right? Which you would do if you're an intelligence agency or a defense contractor, like you have control over everything. Well, that got to the point where they were gonna run a state audit on the whole thing, and they didn't want that to happen.

• 1:46:13Speaker 04

  So I was hastily returned in September of 2010, back to my homeschool district, kicked out of the program. And like I said, I was on 12 antipsychotics. There was a cover basically pointing up to this time that I was severely mentally unwell. And that's what was justified my placement there for two years. So like, within 30 days, all of this craziness stops. I get thrown back into my homeschool district, and I just do everything in my power to forget this ever happened, because I went up against what I felt like was the beast. Like, these people masqueraded as school. They masqueraded as my friends. Who do I trust? I'm just never gonna talk about this and hope to God I live a normal life. And that worked.

• 1:46:56Speaker 04

  Within one year, all of my medications were released. I was released from every single psychological diagnosis. So I was just magically cleared in one year, right? And it just all disappeared. It just all disappeared.

• 1:47:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. Major, major fall through the cracks, you know, the level of relics. But also, again, this is like high level exploitation from the best of the best, you know, like an intelligence agency.

• 1:47:22Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:47:23Speaker 04

  This is how they would masquerade the system.

• 1:47:25Jesse Michels?

  And was it like 400 plus lawsuits were, you know, thrown against Victory Baker Services? Is that right?

• 1:47:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. They, it's no longer an operation. It has been sued so many times, not by myself, but just by other people reporting sexual abuse claims that they had to close the facility.

• 1:47:44Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any sense of the contractors or the agencies that were working there?

• 1:47:49Speaker 04

  Uh, I don't want to go into too many details about that. But I will gladly point the audience to where I think like, if you want to look at legacy program stuff, I'd look at MITER.

• 1:48:02Jesse Michels?

  MITER Corporation.

• 1:48:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:03Jesse Michels?

  They're federally funded research and development center.

• 1:48:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:06Jesse Michels?

  And it's interesting, Eric Burlison, you know, congressman from Missouri, who's really been a champion of UFO UAP disclosure. He is now basically demanding that MITER open up all their records regarding involvement with this sort of subject. And so that'll be, that'll be very interesting. I think he sent them something saying you have 45 days or something like that.

• 1:48:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Again, what's interesting is like my whole track that I experienced as an individual is like, I love the fact that there's Burlison doing this. I love the fact that there's still so many good people like trying to fight the good fight using the mechanisms of government that we have today. My experience was like, they all failed. They failed me as a kid. They still failed me now as we've tried to look. Right? So I'm far more interested in like, at the same level, people are looking backwards and, you know, trying to get justice and get right. We also need a cohort of people who are looking forward that are saying like, I'm not worried about what bad MITER did. I'm worried about what was MITER doing? What do they know? And how can we bring that out in the public light, right?

• 1:49:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:49:13Speaker 04

  Like where is that, you know, transcendence going to happen? And I hope that, you know, just from. Like what I'm creating, what others are creating in the space that like a whole new renaissance can emerge.

• 1:49:24Jesse Michels?

  Mitre is weird. I mean, they used to hold like gravity conferences and you know Ning Li was last, you know, speaking at a Meyer conference before she kind of went into the black and she was doing anti-gravity experiments. And so it's yeah, the first order thing is right. Like, wait, you know, this is, this is totally messed up. Like you guys have committed crimes. The second order thing is like, you're concealing stuff that could just change humanity and make like the world like way, way better. So like, let that out, you know, at the very least, let that out, you know?

• 1:49:54Speaker 04

  Well, here's the thing. I don't know if they will, right? Like, let's look at the track record, you know, to this point. It's just gonna be another 20 years of just like fighting with the mechanisms. And again, back to the earlier point is like, we don't need it. We don't need government. We don't need the people who've done this wrongly. We need the next cohort of individuals and organizations and industry that are willing to say like, there is a whole new unlock in the way that we understand ourselves in the universe at our fingertips.

• 1:50:21Speaker 00

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• 1:51:20Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, it's almost, um, the tech you're describing isn't insane.

• 1:51:28Jesse Michels?

  EEGs and brain mapping.

• 1:51:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:51:30Jesse Michels?

  And, you know, and then getting into a subconscious state. It's like this stuff was written about like years, you know, it's silver mind control, you know, all these sorts of things.

• 1:51:39Speaker 04

  Hundreds of years.

• 1:51:40Jesse Michels?

  You know, uh, so it's, that's not the super complicated, but it's actually just being open to the fact that your consciousness has an impact on the material world. So that's, that's actually the limiting factor.

• 1:51:53Jesse Michels?

  It's so interesting to hear your story because it dovetails with so many other stories that I've encountered like, you know, Dan Sherman is this, uh, guy who went on my show who wrote a book called Above Black. And he was, uh, you know, Air Force Electronics Intelligence. He went to, um, I believe it was supposed to be, it was in Maryland and maybe it was Fort Meade where he was going to do some, um, you know, continuing education and then he got taken to this NSA complex and he was given these headphones, told to take these pills and then was told to lock on to a sine wave and flatten the sine wave.

• 1:52:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:30Speaker 06

  I could definitely affect the, the motion and I could do it just at will.

• 1:52:37Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever experienced anything like that?

• 1:52:38Speaker 04

  I know exactly what he's talking about.

• 1:52:39Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:52:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. We had different terms like square the circle, like things like that, but you know, probably, uh, who knows if he was actually looking at a real sine wave or was he looking at something that just like visually looked, you know, behaved as a sine wave?

• 1:52:53Jesse Michels?

  It could have.

• 1:52:53Speaker 04

  What was the underlying signal?

• 1:52:54Jesse Michels?

  It could have visually just looked like a sine wave and, and then I don't know if the Binoal beats actually matched that, but he, he said that that got him into a state where he could communicate with extraterrestrials. And the way he was briefed, it was called, uh, Project Preserve Destiny. They said that his mother, uh, while she was pregnant was, was abducted by aliens and genetically altered. He was genetically altered as a fetus in her womb to have more of a psychic predisposition potential for communicating with these, you know, extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence.

• 1:53:30Speaker 04

  There is something there, you know, and like props to him for sharing what is like a very vulnerable aspect of that because like that just sounds bonkers to a lot of people. But there is certainly some genetic aspects to psychic potentials, you know, like rare blood types, you know, like I'm a Rhesus negative. I know we talked about that.

• 1:53:48Jesse Michels?

  RH negative.

• 1:53:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, whether whether there's a correlation or not is like highly, highly, you know, disputed. But like.

• 1:53:55Jesse Michels?

  A lot of people with that blood types, they say, you know, the veil is a little thinner for me. I'm a little more clairvoyant, you know?

• 1:54:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe one of many. If anything, I don't think it's it's probably that easy. You know, maybe there are some genetic carriers that like deep down, I think there's certainly a there there. But in reality, I think we all possess an underlying amount of disability, you know, to perceive extrasensory information. I think maybe some individuals just perhaps have like a higher ceiling.

• 1:54:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:23Speaker 04

  Than others.

• 1:54:24Jesse Michels?

  Well, a very high up person in in government who I won't out because I don't think he wants to be outed, but basically corroborated Sherman's story. And so, you know, unfortunately, I hate saying anonymous source, but you know, take that with a grain of salt if you want.

• 1:54:42Jesse Michels?

  And he has this DD 214 and he even in his book, he didn't mention one of the bases. And then we figured out one of the bases, it was in Southern Italy. And because he took a photo of it in his book and you didn't have the internet back then. So you couldn't reverse image search and I called him out on it. It was San Vito, Dem Normany or something. And he was like, yep, that was the base. And then the other base was off it, you know, I think in Nebraska. And so his story kind of checks. And then I had another, you know, electronics intelligence guy named Dan Hogg, you know, who I believe worked for the Director of National Intelligence. And, you know, his long history in government is basically like all of the electronics intelligence

• 1:55:23Jesse Michels?

  stuff he's saying seems totally legit. And he's just a super normal, cool guy. So it's so wild to me, you know, and then it's, this is what it cuts to the core of the matter because all this stuff is hidden in plain sight.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  That's the big key, right? And that's what I tell, you know, everyone in my story, right? It's plausible deniability is key. It is not grandiose. It's like, if you want to hide something, you blend it in.

• 1:55:50Jesse Michels?

  For somebody, their day job was going to the Victory Baker Services Center. And you say this, you know, in a great blog post you wrote, they would go to the Starbucks around the corner or whatever and talk casually about their job.

• 1:56:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Jesse Michels?

  Which is recruiting for this UFO covert program.

• 1:56:07Speaker 04

  It's not like some crazy dark, I think, like all the conspiratorial, you know, just imaginations, you know, out there have kind of created the stigma of it's like highly secret. It's like, actually, it's highly secret, certainly, but it's hidden in plain sight. It's not compartmented like you'd think. It's going to operate through channels that, you know, carry and allow plausible deniability, right? Are you going to question if the air force is setting up a road perimeter? Or would you question if the local police department are there less, right? Like, you're going to flow through the channels that you can. You're not going to make yourself a target.

• 1:56:44Jesse Michels?

  Hundred percent. Ross Colthart is a really hard-nosed, good journalist who really vets, you know, his sources. And, you know, I'm sure he went very deep with you. You also mentioned Odyssey Systems. Is that something that he uncovered or you uncovered in this?

• 1:56:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's certainly some connections there, you know, whether the exact contractor personnel or not, where Odyssey Systems is like highly debated. I think some of the underlying like tech platforms that were being used, just in terms of like data management, were Odyssey Systems. But I believe that there's quite a bit that points to Miter, from my understanding.

• 1:57:22Jesse Michels?

  Hmm. It's so fascinating. Yeah. Have you heard of Andre Puharic by any chance?

• 1:57:28Speaker 04

  Puharic, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And highly synonymous, you know, I kind of look at Puharic as like he, he likely championed the earlier iteration of research that I later experienced, you know, in the program. A lot of the same similarities, you know, his ideal space kids, right? In upstate New York.

• 1:57:48Jesse Michels?

  Upstate New York.

• 1:57:49Speaker 04

  Nonetheless, yeah, there's quite a few similarities there.

• 1:57:52Jesse Michels?

  Upstate New York, you had them channeling things in Faraday cages and non-human intelligence. And they were often very high psi. Very clairvoyant, just really fascinating. And you have to wonder, I think the GATE program was started by Sidney Marland in 1972. And this was before the Church Committee. And so this is before a lot of the malfeasance around MKUltra, CIA mind control, that sort of stuff was kind of excavated by Frank Church and, you know, Congress and the civilian world. And I wonder if it was formed somewhat with the intent of funneling in, you know, kids who have psionic predisposition potential or whatever to these programs.

• 1:58:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, the way that I typically say this to people is like, GATE itself is benign, right? By all regards, at least in my consideration. It's that there has been a different entity that is utilizing GATE behind the scenes to find a pre-selected pool of people and pull them into the program. Because GATE itself like does great things, right? Like it pushes people to STEM. There's a lot of benefits that are not, you know, crazy conspiratorial UAP thing. It's more that there is an element that is looking at the pool of GATE people and plucking from them, right? So like GATE is kind of used as this just general identifier and funnel. It itself is not bad, but there's someone else in there and pulling from it.

• 1:59:18Jesse Michels?

  What's your theory on, do you have like a consciousness theory? Which, I mean, it's like the hardest thing to sort of make falsifiable, right? It's hard to understand the causal mechanism of the random event generators. What's causing wave function collapse? Or, you know, even wave function collapse might be a poor way of putting it, you know? But even, you know, a lot of the godfathers of quantum mechanics, or even the Copenhagen interpretations, like we observe the wave function and it collapses. What does that mean? And how do we know that it's just particles kind of independent of us? Or waves, rather, you know, turning into discrete particles, you know, independent of the observer? There's literally, it's unfalsifiable.

• 2:00:00Jesse Michels?

  There's no way to argue that the superposition doesn't exist in the quantum detector. And it's not the quantum detector, you know, causing the collapse. Like the observer could be, and all these- People.

• 2:00:10Speaker 04

  How far do you want to go back on like the observational metrics?

• 2:00:13Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Speaker 04

  This is like, how do you keep, well, that's the pro, that's your deal with the awareness, right? Like, you almost can't, right? That's where you can kind of get back to the point of like, you can't take out observation.

• 2:00:24Jesse Michels?

  You can't.

• 2:00:24Speaker 04

  Take out awareness.

• 2:00:25Jesse Michels?

  It's complete, you can't remove it, e- even in sort of the delayed choice experiment, or even in like, you know, just basic quantum mechanics, you choose to make the measurement and then you're collapsing the wave function.

• 2:00:36Speaker 04

  So like, let's like totally back up for a moment. And I'll use a little bit of this example, like the, the story as we know it, right? Here we are as humans, having this conversation. You know, most of us have been told something, you know, along these lines that, we live in a materialistic universe, right? That Earth is essentially a rock. It is orbiting the sun, right? We live in this material rocky solar system. We live on it, we're humans, we're kind of this happy accident. Our brains just happen to be producing this thing of consciousness locally. And you, you, you live and die, you know? It's pretty sad when you really think about that. You know, my experience was being taught, trained and having experiences that validate this, that we don't necessarily live in a materialistic world.

• 2:01:21Speaker 04

  We live in something a lot more akin to a field, right? That is taking on a materialistic form as we interact with it. But the underlying substrate is not fixed. It's not rock. It's actually something far more reflexive than that. And consciousness and awareness is the in-between that can see both worlds, that can interact with both worlds and actually exert effects on both worlds. So you begin to see the world not necessarily some fixed, static, materialistic universe that we live in. You see it as something that's dynamic, reflexive, and the underlying substrate is not materialistic. It's how we perceive it at our current level of consciousness.

• 2:02:06Jesse Michels?

  How do synchronicities work?

• 2:02:09Speaker 04

  I don't know, you know, it's, gosh. Yeah, let's talk about time, huh?

• 2:02:14Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:16Speaker 04

  Interestingly, I think, you know, for people aren't familiar with synchronicities, right? Like, number one, I think they're highly personal. I think they're highly, highly, highly personal. And I think, you know, if you subscribe to a version of the universe where, you know, whether through dimensions or something else, like, maybe there's a concept of your higher self, right? Like, there's a consciousness, you know, up and beyond this body, that maybe is like steering you, right? Or like, hey, you have two options, right or left, but if we give you the synchronicity, a little sense of deja vu, like, maybe you get highly reflective in that moment and almost change the outcome, right? So I think of like synchronicities almost as like this communication between a higher version of yourself, or a version of yourself, perhaps in a different timeline, that's allowing

• 2:03:00Speaker 04

  you to critique your experience here.

• 2:03:02Jesse Michels?

  It's a little wink or a nudge, you know, in the right direction or something. It also feels like it's a, you know, kind of exemplifying maybe a reduction in entropy. So if you think of time, it's hard to define time without, you know, defining it with respect to oscillations of an electromagnetic wave, or the movement of macroscopic bodies. And time really doesn't exist without separation. Like, if you, you know, pre-big-bang, you can think of like, the world, the world at rest is entirely timeless. And so, time has to be between two objects, and, or it has to involve movement. There's, there's

• 2:03:44Jesse Michels?

  nothing fundamental about. And so because it's the most used noun, and because it's undefinable without respect to those things, it feels like this soup that we're swimming in. And that's like impossible to get outside of. And so the synchronicity thing is like,

• 2:04:00Jesse Michels?

  I don't know. I don't, I don't know how you, yeah, I'm sort of going full schizo here.

• 2:04:05Speaker 04

  No, I love it. This is the fun part. I'm, I'm with you. I think, just to untangle the two, like, yeah, synchronicities, you know, the causal mechanism, I'm not sure. How I look at them as my own life, you know, as I look at them as like little beacons of like guiding, you know, maybe it's like either A, Whoa, the clocks 333, like, let me just think for a moment. What am I doing in this moment? What am I thinking? Should I think more critically here, right? Or, you know, maybe they're encouragement that you're on the right path, right? It's kind of like what you make of them. But for me, it's like, I look at it as like highly personal, right? More of like a guiding factor. But like getting back into like time, right? And like kind of like untangling the two is like, I think largely our current understanding of space, time is going to change.

• 2:04:48Speaker 04

  The more that we really look into awareness and consciousness. I'm not convinced that it's like the static measure, you know, of the universe or a law of nature as we know it. You know, I think it's far more reflexive. I think, you know, depending on localized environments, it's highly changing. I think the awareness or the observer perhaps may actually have an influence on time or maybe the flow of time too. So.

• 2:05:10Jesse Michels?

  I think so too. And before mechanical clocks, time was only embodied and it was talked about in malleable ways. And so time freezing wasn't like, oh, it's a felt sense of time freezing. It was actually maybe freezing, you know, especially if, yeah, go for it.

• 2:05:28Speaker 04

  I was just gonna say like, this gets more interesting too, as you think about the technological age that we're in. The more that we measure and observe, right? The more I wonder if we're actually constraining ourselves a little bit, right? Cause like if you're back in the 1600s, things were very magical. We're figuring out how consciousness and awareness has the ability to influence things. You can direct your experience from it. So like, hey, if you ran off into the woods and you're like, I want to go find someplace magical. Maybe that manifests and materializes because there's no one else watching. You're in a quantumly unentangled state and you like actually travel there, right? But now that we're in this localized environment where we're watching and measuring and limiting everything,

• 2:06:10Speaker 04

  perhaps that's actually having in a constrictive aspect on reality where it's like, oh, you can't just, your, your range of options are limiting because now there has to be this connection point that makes sense between this observer, that observer and that observer. It's no longer just you and the universe that's embodied. It's all of these other mechanisms in between.

• 2:06:30Jesse Michels?

  You have all these things being snapped to grid instead of like staying in this possibility space.

• 2:06:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:06:35Jesse Michels?

  This kind of super positionality.

• 2:06:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:06:37Jesse Michels?

  It's so fascinating. You know, well, Rudolf Steiner is this great Austrian philosopher who, you know, I'm a big fan of. And he wrote a book.

• 2:06:47Jesse Michels?

  Called Goethe's Theory of Knowledge, Goethe, you know, obviously the German poet polymath from 18th century, you know, 100 years before Steiner was writing. And Goethe went to Strasbourg Cathedral and Strasbourg was this sort of, you know, Gothic cathedral that was seen as way too ornate and chaotic in, you know, for that time, which was, you know, more about kind of, you know, a sparse functionality and was, you know, heavily criticized. And he experienced this merging with the cathedral and it was this sort of very important thing in his life. And he then predicted that the next epistemological paradigm shift would be cognition by identification.

• 2:07:31Jesse Michels?

  So instead of cognition through this observer observed separation, this duality, it would be like you would embody the thing that you're trying to understand. You wouldn't study it from a distance, from afar. And that seems awfully like a lot of these, you know, techniques you were, you know, being told to do in this covert Baker Victory Services program.

• 2:07:54Speaker 04

  Right, yeah, you become it, right? You embody it, you become it. Or like even in the extreme cases that I was doing, right? It's like there's an aspect of disembodiment and then re-embodiment, right? Into the absence of the thing. But I think like in Rudolph, in Rudolph's kind of thinking here too, it's not necessarily like, like that's a very almost materialistic aspect of what, you know, I was doing. It's like I'm leaving my body and getting into another object to take it on. I think like that can just be applied at so many levels of life. Like it can also be applied to like your own cognition of yourself, right? Like I, what comes up for me is, you know, I kind of think back to this too. It's just like become who you want to become. Fake it till you make it works for a reason, right? Because you're embodying something that's already there and then your reality is kind of conforming around you for that.

• 2:08:39Speaker 04

  So there's a lot more wisdom in there that meets the surface.

• 2:08:42Jesse Michels?

  For sure. And then you just have to do it. Fake it till you make it works if the faking it exists on a real subconscious level like you have like sub-intentions and so there's something to the secret and to all these sort of manifesting practices and then it feels like some people are like running on ice they're running in place or whatever and they clearly have all sorts of sub-intentions that are very self-sabotagey and they don't quite actually translate and work and so you have to get deeper into that the substrate and you know that that seems really hard and maybe you can do it with some brain mapping biofeedback techniques but I don't know if we have a pure science of that you know

• 2:09:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, and I don't I don't think that like you know even again with like next level consciousness next level psi like I I personally like even on this journey like I've gotten MRIs you know and a few things stand out I think like you know Gary Nolan's done some really great research like I have a very unique codate and putamen there's a lot of white matter going on there yep yep there's certainly a correlation but

• 2:09:42Jesse Michels?

  So but real quick I want because the audience so Gary Nolan Stanford professor tenured microbiologist he's doing all these studies that on the codate nucleus and and potamen which is this part of the basal ganglia and if that's very neuronally dense the person seems to have high psi powers high sort of mind over matter ability and then also seems to encounter more sort of UAP UFO stuff and so you got an MRI and you have

• 2:10:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have a very high level striation right so essentially this is my MRI like in the codate and the putamen there's a high level of these white matter stripes right however I don't think that's it like I I think what we're going to find is the more that we look for physiological markers you know like like the answer for consciousness is not looking at the materialistic aspect don't look at the physiological symptoms I don't think that's what we're gonna find it I I think we're gonna find a lot more about actually going in the intrinsic you know whether that be the metaphysical the the woo-woo spiritual the the quantum observational right like however whatever glasses you want to put in or put on to wear to better understand this use them they're all the same thing

• 2:10:56Jesse Michels?

  Also if this is some sort of simulation or computation or something If you find the infinite money-making machine, you know, you figure out some sort of causal physical mechanism for psychic powers or whatever. Do you think that if there's any sort of intentionality behind the game that you're being, that you're playing? Do you not think that the person or the entity or God or whatever would change the source code on you? Well, like, like, you're not going to figure out the one thing that allows you to hack the entire game.

• 2:11:26Speaker 04

  This is the, this is like the right-hand path versus the left-hand path, right? Where like, there's always been, you can think of like the crazy scientist who's like, I want to take Psy and I'm gonna figure out the mechanisms and predict the world, right? And it's all gonna be for me. Well, it's like, that always ends in disaster.

• 2:11:42Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 2:11:42Speaker 04

  That's ended in disaster for every, you know, imperialist emperor, etc. Like, it doesn't just have to be sign science, right? Like, that's the left-hand path. The right-hand path of like, wow, there's something here. If we actually work on the understanding, the embodiment and, you know, the progression of it, maybe from a collective measure outside of the self, then it seems to scale with you, right? And you get like compounding effects. And I think like up until this point, like this has been the story of disclosure. There's been a highly finite amount of people in the left-hand path that know information that you haven't been allowed to know, right? Now, for the first time in history, the right-hand path is opening up. So the more that we collectively actually work together,

• 2:12:27Speaker 04

  I think the more that we get, you know, both individually and collectively.

• 2:12:31Jesse Michels?

  Agreed. Yeah. Whether it's Lord of the Rings or Prometheus or Faust or all of these legends end the same way and it's not good.

• 2:12:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:12:40Jesse Michels?

  If you try to use the sacred thing, I think there's even a line in the Old Testament about this, where if you try to like, turn any of the sacred stuff into a business, like it always backfires.

• 2:12:51Speaker 04

  Always backfire.

• 2:12:52Jesse Michels?

  And so just don't try to like, you know, beat the thing into submission. Go into it non-coercively, not for any sort of instrumental use. And just if you're curious and you want... You know, your own growth and ascension, great, but otherwise, you know,

• 2:13:08Speaker 04

  There's a delicate answer, right? It's like threading the needle, right? Because we live in this capitalistic society and like, well, you have to make money, right? And I think there's a lot of people, you can just like, you know, people who are very advanced spiritually, they like want to share, it gives to humanity, like always the roadblock is like, well, how do you make money and support yourself with it too, right? So it's like, there's a very fine line. I don't know if it's like, the answer is just don't make money, but I think it's like, have the right intentionality between how you're making your money.

• 2:13:36Jesse Michels?

  What do you think when you're communing with these orbs and UFOs that sort of show up?

• 2:13:44Jesse Michels?

  What do you think they are? You went through some of the thinking and theories, you know, earlier, but like, I guess maybe because, you know, we're grasping at straws on theories. What does it, what does it feel like?

• 2:13:56Speaker 04

  Hmm, hmm. Every time it's a little bit different, right? Every time it's a little bit different and we cover the theories, right? Like, one could be extraterrestrial, two, subscribe to more dimensional, interdimensional. You know, three could be us, right? Like a mirror back, right? It could be all of these things at once. But in terms of like, what does it feel like, right? For me, it's highly, I almost feel it hemispherically, right? So like, let's say there's an orb or I'll kind of recreate the Yesselen experience for you, for those that have kind of heard that, right? So what that looks like is I took a group of about 30 people. We had a highly dedicated like tracklist that I produced, like specific binaural beats, specific frequencies.

• 2:14:40Speaker 04

  We're outside in a beautiful setting and I'm giving people instructions on just how to ground themselves, like basic meditative tools. I give them a visualization exercise, so they're visualizing when we actually begin this experience. And then everyone starts the same tracklist at the same time. So we're all synchronized. So imagine a 30 minute playlist, you're all listening at the same time. And when you're all synchronized like that, you almost create this like group coherence, right? Super interesting things happen with RNGs in this environment too, which I just will say as like an environmental sensor of what's happening in environment. Mentally, something's happening, right? RNGs will shift sigmas. There's other environmental sigmas. So again, like, there's a whole chapter of research of like,

• 2:15:23Speaker 04

  consciousness in relation to the environment, not just NHI, that has not been looked at yet. NHI is almost a byproduct of what happens in like a field environment like this, right?

• 2:15:33Jesse Michels?

  That feels right. Because when you talk to the remote viewers, who are systematically trained at like getting into these heightened states, it almost feels like UFOs and aliens and all these things. They're like an incidental byproduct of everything else. And they're so casual to like their environment. They're like, oh, we, we looked into this ET base or whatever. And it's like, and it's so, it's like so not a thing for them. Because they have like an expanded scope of reality. But anyway, so keep going.

• 2:16:01Speaker 04

  No, you're totally right. You're totally right. Yeah, that's again, where I really hope it's not just we need finite lab conditions. This is like, what happens when you start bringing everyone together? Right? And a shared meditation, a shared synchronized setting. What environmental signals can you look at? What's changing, right? And now change the conditions, like task the people in the group differently. What changes in the environmental conditions? Like, there's so much yet to be discovered right in front of us that we haven't looked into yet. But to answer your question specifically, right? Like, uh, we're doing a shared visualization. Everyone's listening to the same track list at the same time. It's highly synchronized. I have an ability to get out of my body, right? And kind of visualize my surroundings out of body. And when something like an orb, right?

• 2:16:46Speaker 04

  Or a manifestation of phenomena showing up. For me, somatically, I actually feel this like spinning or correlation between my hemispheres. It's like as if you took my right and left hemisphere, my brain and my skull, and it's like they began oscillating at different speeds and different tempos. And it's almost like the higher they speed up or the higher the vibration, the closer the phenomenon or the manifestation is that I'm actually interacting with. And then sometimes it's telepathy through, uh, voice. Sometimes it's telepathy through words. What is actually the better question to ask here? It's not how I experience it. It's that every single human, every person, every psychic, right?

• 2:17:27Speaker 04

  Experiences it differently and it depends more so on their cognition platform, right? So if you're again, if you're a kinesthetic person, how you experience the phenomenon is going to be kinesthetic. If you're looking at information very auditory, like you hear things, you're going to experience auditory telepathy. If you're visual like me, you might experience things very visual. You see it in your mind's eye, you're interacting with the orb and it's distantly away, right? All of them can be true. It depends more on us as the receiver and how we process the info.

• 2:17:57Jesse Michels?

  It's interesting that you experienced the synchronization of hemispheres. I believe in 85 or 86, there's a CIA document that's now been, you know, the Freedom of Information Act has been used against it. And it's all about this hemisync technique that Robert Monroe in Virginia, this consciousness researcher kind of pioneered. Now you have the Monroe Institute there and it's all about using these binaural beats that are slightly off. So the brain entrains them to synchronize and then through the entrainment, you get this synchronization of the whole brain. And then you experience all sorts of, you know, amazing stuff in a kind of expanded reality. So this is so fascinating. It's so interesting.

• 2:18:40Jesse Michels?

  And another thing I thought, have you, you know, Arthur C. Clarke, of course, the sci-fi novel?

• 2:18:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18:46Jesse Michels?

  I'm sorry, sorry, the sci-fi writer. He wrote a, have you heard of Childhood's End? Have you read that book?

• 2:18:53Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:18:54Jesse Michels?

  It's all about these alien beings that kind of are overseeing Earth. And they both infiltrate the government in these covert ways. And then they also speak only to these autistic, non-verbal children. And that's how they communicate. And I think of, you know, your experience in the center you were at. And I think of the telepathy tapes, which, you know, is now super in vogue and popular. It's an amazing podcast by Kai Dickens about all these non-verbal autistic children. And the paradigms that they live in, which are really heart centered and involve love and also a lot of these other beings and knowledge that seems like hermetic

• 2:19:39Jesse Michels?

  and like, you know, through channels that you would never have been able to, you know, to get through inductive logic, like they come out, like they know certain Egyptian hieroglyphics and stuff. Like, it does feel like that's, and then all this whole modern disclosure movement, which is sort of, you know, a little ridiculous, but it's happening. And it feels like that book is happening.

• 2:20:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, totally. I have two, like, oh gosh, there's so many ways I want to take this. You know, actually, I'll, I'll build on a little bit of this without like saying too much, but this is like a very personal experience for me. There was an individual, one of the guests on the Telepathy Tapes episode, I won't get into the names, but I actually interacted with, right? Like I had a Zoom phone call with them. Really quick, right? Light years away, but had just a great call, got introduced. And then I went to sleep that evening and then that evening I had the most extreme astral experience being taken out of my body to like a vibrational state that I've never experienced before, like super, super high, felt it just in my entire being.

• 2:20:47Speaker 04

  And I was like very clearly on what I would best describe as like the hill. And when I was there, it felt like I was in an auditorium where there was all of these other people with me. And interestingly enough, I had this image kind of like that came into my head. And it was from the person that I interacted with on the tapes. And they were showing me an image of a kid named Ken that was in the program that I was in at Baker Victory, who was a nonverbal autistic. And they were communicating to me that like, hey, because you know Ken and you interacted with Ken, we can find you through them, right? Like we're all connected in this certain way.

• 2:21:28Speaker 04

  And like that completely changed. And like since then, I've still had repeating experiences of like being brought to this very high frequency spot. So there's a lot there, right? With the nonverbal side of, you know, the autistic world. Yeah.

• 2:21:42Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. It's almost like you can link up with another node or something. And then you mentioned that at Baker Victory Services, a lot of their work was having you quantum unentangle with things that you were entangled with. So because you're so high empathy and you have kind of a porous outer shell at the time, you would just. Glom onto things and then you'd have to like sort of reel your, your, your full self back in or?

• 2:22:13Speaker 04

  It's almost as if like, so if we're thinking from like a quantum perspective, as we're thinking about remote viewing, like other viewers have talked about this, right? Like your own bias, your own life experience, your own perception is actually going to create how you view things, right? So again, for people that are like looking, we'll back up real quick, uh, cause this is like an important thing to say. So as we've, we're here at the critical component of like disclosure, right? Uh, there's something more than us. There's a different intelligence out there, all of this. I, I think like, if I was at other intelligence, I would probably be like looking at humanity laughing, like you guys need to get out of your own way. And before we should focus on like communing with

• 2:22:56Speaker 04

  NHI and communing, you know, with what very well may be angels, like whatever you want to call them, we should probably understand ourselves first and we should probably understand our own reality first. And then if we do that, maybe, you know, we'll aspire to this, right? Because it's like, again, just like we talked about psychedelics, like don't bypass, right?

• 2:23:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:16Speaker 04

  Like we can't bypass. What the lesson here, I think is more of like this mirror that's being presented to humanity of like, you're on this very weird path. There's a lot of trepidation ahead of you. You haven't like understood your own relationship with reality. So if there's like one wish for humanity that I have, it's like, take this as a catalyzing moment. You're not alone in the universe. Great. Uh, but the real lesson isn't just, you're not alone in the universe. What do you make of that? The real lesson is there's far more to reality than you've been told and you have the right to explore that.

• 2:23:48Jesse Michels?

  And what would you say to the many people who your story probably resonates very deeply with? And I'll take it even a step far further. Your story could represent, you know, there are people who've been abducted by, you know, what they think are, you know, you know, non-human intelligence or ETs, uh, you know, often they're gray aliens and they'll see the cover of Communion, Whitley Strieber's book. And I've had some of these people on my show where they'll be at a bookstore and they'll see it and it'll, it'll bring back these memories for them. And for you, it was, you know, the stress of a startup, uh, you know, a relationship going south that brought up your own memories. I'm sure this show might bring up some memories for people. How would you advise them?

• 2:24:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, like, right now, the perfect container isn't built, right? But this is a personal venture for me where I'm trying to build that container. That's like, safe, supported, and has the capital and the resources to actually give people, you know, some direction, right? So like, in my case specifically, you know, all of this was hidden, you know, primarily under dissociation, right? And if we look at psychology today, like dissociation is like, the least studied of like, trauma responses. And even if we want to take this a step further, right? Like, it's not just helping gate kids. It's actually like, we're reevaluating what psychology is. You know, if we go back to like, there's Carl Jung, right? And he had this kind of spirituality or like esoteric perspective merged with psychology.

• 2:25:17Speaker 04

  And we kind of took like a left-hand turn and ended up with what we know as now as the DSM. You know, I think largely, it's not just helping gate kids, but I think through the art of helping gate kids and better like, understanding dissociation, you know, we might be able to build a brand-new book of psychology. Like, we're talking about the non-locality of consciousness, right? Like, how many psychologists are trained on that?

• 2:25:39Jesse Michels?

  Totally. You know, if there is this more embedded, deep link between mind-matter, I mean, even that phrase, "mind-matter," embeds kind of a duality that probably doesn't exist, right? It changes psychology wholesale, you know, like, and it's kind of more empowering than some of these, like, "Oh, we're just gonna use, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, or internal family systems, or Jungian symbology," or whatever. Like, no, you can, if you can somehow, you know, change the way your subconscious frames things, you can really affect the person's reality, and, you know, obviously, in negative ways, as you've experienced, or extremely positive ways.

• 2:26:22Speaker 04

  Totally, yeah. You know, I personally think like, the greatest gift to humanity, you know, that like, I could be a part of, right, is actually helping in the psychology process. Because, you know, if we look today with all these outdated treatments and people treating symptoms, right? Ever necessarily getting over depression, you know, never fully understanding how trauma has affected them, you know, in their upbringing. I think that there could just be such a gift there too. So this is something that we're championing with the telepathy center. You know, so if you're like a clinician, right? If you're someone that's on this frontier side of psychology, you're willing to think outside of the box, like contact us, contact me. If you're someone with clean conscious capital, right? Like looking to support those that maybe have been, um, you know, targeted this population of gay survivors.

• 2:27:06Speaker 04

  Please contact us, right? Um, again, like the container for this doesn't exist today, um, but it's something that I'm hoping to build.

• 2:27:13Jesse Michels?

  It's a beautiful message, man, and, and, uh, I'm really excited to see what you do on a go forward basis. And, uh, how can people download, uh, this new app that you have?

• 2:27:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So you can go to the, the telepathy center.com. Um, we'll be releasing here in June. Check out everything. So excited to share that with the world. Um, that's kind of the primary updates. You can find me at jordan josak.com too, just my personal bios on there. But really looking forward to getting this tool in the hands of everyone and yeah, showing, um, hopefully what may be like the start of a brand new renaissance. I, I think, you know, my last little message for like humanity is I, I have walked through the darkness figuratively, literally, you know, all of it in my life. And there's so much with this disclosure narrative and paradigm that is conspiratorial and it is dark.

• 2:28:01Speaker 04

  And it's not that it's not true. It's just that we have a moment in time to take that right hand path or take the left hand path. And while all of this may be scary and completely earth shattering to some, it's also the potential for a brand new renaissance. For a lot of us and for a whole new planet to be basically given brand new tools, uh, brand new ways of looking at life, brand new physics. Like, I don't think it's necessarily something we're going to figure out in the lab. I think we're going to figure out with our own minds. And we may figure out that there's a correlation to our models of physics and the way that we believe our subconscious looks at physics, right? Like, what if the underlying mechanism is actually inside us instead of outside of us?

• 2:28:44Jesse Michels?

  This is one of my favorite shows I've ever done. I hate to even call it a show if that feels sacrilegious for the really intense, deep conversation we just had, but I hope, you know, people can get something out of it too, and I hope you enjoyed it.

• 2:28:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I had a blast. Like, I want to keep going. Like, we'll have to do another one.

• 2:28:58Jesse Michels?

  Let's run it back.

• 2:28:59Speaker 04

  We'll have to do another. And yeah, so excited for the opportunity. Thanks for having me on, Jesse.

• 2:29:03Jesse Michels?

  Oh dude, it was an honor.

• 2:29:11Jesse Michels?

  If you've made it this far in the show, then I know you care enough to hear about this. Our show, American Alchemy, is growing super fast. It's bursting at the seams. We are looking for an amazing editor to join the team. If you're an experienced YouTube editor, podcast editor, trailer editor, or documentary-style editor, maybe you're even a traditional Hollywood editor and you're just really into our content, and you want to work on some of the most mind-bending stories in the world, we really want to hear from you. We're especially looking for people who are deep into the content and who have a real editorial eye. Someone who can dig through long and sometimes dense conversations, find the most powerful moments, build tension, create great hooks. Basically, people who

• 2:29:56Jesse Michels?

  can turn these raw conversations into very high-quality, almost cinematic, episodes. Strong technical skills are a prerequisite, but especially for the documentaries we make, we really need somebody with taste, who has strong instincts around pacing, music, sound design, story structure, you know, all the things. And big bonus points if you're genuinely into UFOs, consciousness, frontier science, and big questions about the nature of reality. So if you're a strong, experienced editor, and you know how to keep audiences engaged, and you want to work with us on some of the coolest stories in the world, please email all your relevant work and your application to [email protected]. And if you

• 2:30:39Jesse Michels?

  have a friend who would be great for this role, please let them know. Thank you so much, and we look forward to hearing from you and maybe working with you.

• 2:31:04Speaker 07

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