The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

Our American Alchemist this week is Clas Svahn. Sign Up With Our Sponsors Below For Exclusive Alchemy Deals! MudWtr: Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code JESSE at mudwtr.com/JESSE! #mudwtrpod The Perfect Jean: The Perfect Jean: F*%k your khakis and get The Perfect Jean 15% off with the code JESSE15 at https://theperfectjean.nyc/JESSE15 #theperfectjeanpod -------------------------- Support Our Other Projects Below! Grab Your American Alchemy Merch Here ➤ https://www.americanalchemymerch.com/ Join The American Alchemy Magazine Here ➤ https://americanalchemymagazine.substack.com/ Subscribe To Our Clips Channel (10 Minute Highlights!) ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@UC8ZKTXN9trt5dhixz6b6l6w -------------------------- JOIN OUR WHOP (Early Drops/Ad Free) ➤ https://whop.com/jessemichels Discord ➤https://discord.gg/crHc44m3kF Instagram ➤ https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial TikTok ➤ https://www.tiktok.com/@itsjessemichels X ➤ https://twitter.com/AlchemyAmerican Spotify ➤ https://tinyurl.com/jessemichelsspotify Clips Channel ➤ https://www.youtube.com/@JesseMichelsClips Apply For Jobs ➤ [email protected] Sponsor Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Media Inquiries ➤ [email protected] Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 04:28 Archives of the Unexplained 30:56 Time Travel Insights 39:01 Betty Hill's Hidden Past 53:12 Water Landings and UFOs 56:07 Sensitive DOD Archives Revealed 57:53 UFO Encounters and Eyewitness Accounts 1:01:38 Military Radar and UFO Sightings 1:05:28 Personal UFO Experiences 1:11:56 The Quest for Truth in UFO Research 1:18:35 Edgar Mitchell and Parapsychology 1:24:15 The Mystery of Astronaut Sightings 1:31:05 Shared UFO Experiences 1:36:00 The Complexity of UFO Photos 1:41:03 The Importance of Stories in UFO Cases 1:50:44 Lessons Learned from Decades of Research Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:02Speaker 02

  It's not only UFO library. It's about the unknown.

• 1:08Jesse Michels?

  So how many countries do you have files from?

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Two. I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files.

• 1:15Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:16Speaker 02

  And they went out in the field and brought back debris.

• 1:22Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  From this crashed object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage. And they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. She was eight meters from there.

• 1:39Jesse Michels?

  Meet Claus Spahn, journalist, author, and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real-life Swedish fox moulder. And that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X-Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, Spahn has not only reported on the phenomenon for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades building, organizing, and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO artifact. The Archives of the Unexplained. This 16-room building houses detailed witness reports, photographs, audio recordings, radar data,

• 2:21Jesse Michels?

  video, and original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel? There's a time travel section? What is this, Brown and Burridge? Townsend Brown.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  I went to Eureka, California.

• 2:36Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  I met with this guy in his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderlands Science Research Association.

• 2:48Jesse Michels?

  What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s. In this episode, we go over a half-century of overlooked evidence: radar-tracked objects executing impossible right-angle turns, military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft, sonar and radar returns, and of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations.

• 3:16Jesse Michels?

  We discuss the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s: A swarm of at least 1,400 documented rocket- and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging into water. A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit, and American President Eisenhower to send his top general, James Doolittle, to investigate.

• 3:47Jesse Michels?

  Claus Svan isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right, interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Claus dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris, which she went on to bury in her backyard, where it still might be to this day.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.

• 4:30Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  But the mountain is resting on this. Mountain that is even bigger.

• 4:37Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  That is moving into the future.

• 4:43Jesse Michels?

  This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it.

• 4:57Jesse Michels?

  I brought my buddy Amar Can Deal from Yes Theory to the Archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo?

• 5:07Jesse Michels?

  Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Klaas Svahn.

• 5:35Jesse Michels?

  Klaas, we're back. Thank you for being here again, or thank you for having us, rather. We're at the beautiful Archives of the Unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim, full of documents.

• 5:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:49Jesse Michels?

  And so, yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store. And you've compiled all of this.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  We started in 1973.

• 5:57Jesse Michels?

  You started in 1973?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  We've been around for a while.

• 6:00Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 6:06Jesse Michels?

  That's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:11Jesse Michels?

  What is that?

• 6:11Speaker 02

  This one. It's a metallic, a piece of metallic. It's from Sweden. An island called Väder, northeast of Stockholm.

• 6:22Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  In 1957, two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night, really, because they were doing some work on Monday. This was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east, moving in front of the car, making a U-turn, and suddenly hanging in front of the car, which was totally died. So the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look on this road.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  They found this object there and it was hot, so they couldn't really hold it in their hands. It was so hot, so it was really burning them. And the car started and then drove away. After many years, this was analyzed and I also analyzed it and it's tungsten, all from carbide. This is very earthly. It has every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957, but tungsten is a very good leader of heat. So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. So the object affected it. So it was so hot.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  So it corroborates the story of the two carpenters.

• 7:51Jesse Michels?

  So it's evidence and the car couldn't have made this tungsten hot? You think it was definitely the...

• 7:57Speaker 02

  No, it was in front of the car and it's impossible really. It must have been quite the heat to do that.

• 8:03Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  So that's interesting.

• 8:05Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. Can I hold it?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 8:07Jesse Michels?

  It does feel oddly, you know, very, very smooth, but I'm sure that is also a natural element of tungsten.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  It is, it is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me.

• 8:16Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, this is actually from outer space.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Yes, we know.

• 8:19Jesse Michels?

  This is not earthly, but it is prosaic. What is this?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  This is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago.

• 8:30Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's one kilometer, so it's a huge crater. You can see it from space. It's very, very heavy. It's ninety-nine percent iron and a little nickel and some other elements.

• 8:47Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  So you can tell if something like this, and from the beginning it was huge, of course.

• 8:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  Like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city, of course, there were no cities fifty thousand years ago. But today, the city would be gone, vanished.

• 9:07Jesse Michels?

  How much, can I feel it? How much of UFO crashes do you think are, this is amazing, it's so heavy. How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events? Nuts and bolts, material gets left behind. You can have a crash retrieval team going, looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it. Do you think a high percentage of them are?

• 9:31Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway.

• 9:34Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we did.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  There were good witnesses. I mean, it landed and it sank.

• 9:38Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  And in nineteen forty-six, as we talked about the ghost rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom. Not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the weather piece. So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs as we're talking about could just vanish without a trace.

• 10:08Jesse Michels?

  Do you know of any, because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders, you know, in the US, there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, Roswell is like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of nineteen forty-seven July. But the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Okay, private citizens really.

• 10:46Jesse Michels?

  Finds actual material themselves.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Not here in Scandinavia. And the thing is, I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often. They are traveling presumably through space and they are crashing.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Not all the time, but quite often. I mean, the UFO enigma to me is much more complex. And I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like these physical objects all the time. We are from time to time. I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that traveling huge speeds over Sweden.

• 11:28Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  And of course, they are physical, but some are not.

• 11:32Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  So where in between could we distinguish? This is one of our UFO hardware. This is something else.

• 11:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 02

  I'm not sure.

• 11:43Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs?

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Not here in Sweden that I'm sure about, but in nineteen forty-six, we had.

• 11:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  They were out, the government sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects.

• 12:02Jesse Michels?

  You showed us photos.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But do you think in the US, there's an official program around these things?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I'm not sure. I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden, really.

• 12:12Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Of course, the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object.

• 12:22Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, you'd have to dedicate resources to even try.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. It could be Chinese, it could be Russian, it could be something completely different. But I think your authorities would be interested.

• 12:33Jesse Michels?

  You know, people know of Hesalden in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe?

• 12:44Speaker 02

  I mean, Hestal is interesting from many aspects first. In the nineteen eighties, early nineteen eighties, we and you from Norway had this huge expedition there. And we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Hestal, when you see something on a scientific instrument, the light, the thing is coming up from the ground. Going upwards, never the other way. We have in Sweden, Dalarna, which is in the middle of Sweden, where we have had several waves of UFO observations. We have a place on the island of Gotland called Martebo,

• 13:29Speaker 02

  where people go to a certain stretch of a road, watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know, we have been there, we have traveled around and drove our own cars, and they shouted, "Oh, that is, that is the object." But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something, except Hestalen if you stay long enough.

• 13:59Jesse Michels?

  So that's really the UFO hotspot?

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it is. And it's been there for many years. And the thing is about Hestalen, even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, to talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well, with crafts and sometimes even beings.

• 14:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, we were there and it was not, it was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that live there had experienced things, like upwards of eighty, eighty-five, ninety percent of people. And that was all of the report. And everybody had family members and they'd experienced things. It was ubiquitous, pretty much.

• 14:39Speaker 04

  Several people in Norway, they have experienced, experienced stuff like that, seeing things, but they don't dare to tell it because they are afraid to being... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why I know, when you speak to other people, "Have you seen anything unnatural?" "Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about it."

• 15:05Jesse Michels?

  You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to poll people,

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:10Jesse Michels?

  They would say, you know, maybe 10, 15% would be open about, you know, it would be, it's the opposite. And Hestalyn, you're the, you're the pariah if you haven't, you know, seen a UFO or something.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes. And 10% of them had seen something.

• 15:26Jesse Michels?

  That's remarkable.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open.

• 15:32Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU.

• 15:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  And presumably 1 million Swedes, 10% of around 11 million.

• 15:45Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  Have seen something.

• 15:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  And last, last night, I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter. And she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971. In October 1971. And she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden. It was daylight and the train was coming. And this is so strange, you know? This is typically strange for me.

• 16:17Jesse Michels?

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• 17:02Jesse Michels?

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• 17:35Jesse Michels?

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• 17:50Speaker 02

  On this train, there was a carriage with scrap metal. Pile. She saw two men on that, looking for something. They have some like backpacks, but it was not backpacks. It was, they had like suits, like the Superman.

• 18:10Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  But the one color only, silver color, with something protruding out of their back like that. And she watched them and suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage, looking at her. And they were holding their hands on the belt with a small box. And they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves. And she was so frightened. She was eight meters from them. That's very, very close. And suddenly, I mean, she went away. And they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk

• 18:56Speaker 02

  that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. And she turned around and she could see they were still working, looking for something on this.

• 19:12Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Interesting, super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all?

• 19:20Speaker 02

  I mean, she started to read about UFOs and tried. And nowadays, she's over seventy years of age. And she looked on YouTube and whatever. But she, she asked me what I thought. And I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical.

• 19:41Jesse Michels?

  You're right.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  So they are so different, so diverse.

• 19:45Jesse Michels?

  So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:50Jesse Michels?

  High strangeness.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  If you really take a look at all of the spectrum, you will find that.

• 19:56Jesse Michels?

  That's what Jacques Vallée, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Absurdity is the word, you know, that's a key word. It's really absurd.

• 20:16Jesse Michels?

  And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself, like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile seemingly doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits, teleporting from can to can or whatever, it sounds insane.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:33Jesse Michels?

  But I'm sure that happened, you know? And so that seems to be this very common, common theme, this trickster element.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:42Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that that's at play here, this, this idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself?

• 20:50Speaker 02

  In a way, in a way, I agree with you because there are so many high strangeness cases. So the other ones, you say, oh, this is typically Whitley's Reebok alien. They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you really dig into all this, the pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories.

• 21:17Speaker 05

  When you were talking about the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:24Speaker 05

  And the suit, it reminded me of a, of a friend of a friend's account. So my, my best friend's sister's best friend.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:34Speaker 05

  She was in Mexico, in Baja California, I think, and just like sunset, taking photos of, she was drinking like a Corona beer, she's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind and maybe half an hour later, as she goes through the photo, she sees something very, very similar to what this woman just drew.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 05

  She drew it. So she was very scared to. Show the photo, but she drew it for me and then we were gonna get on the phone so that so that she can show me the photo just like via Zoom. And I think she had cold feet and I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but she that's what she says.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 05

  And she just says like she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos and again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo of, she didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  I mean, that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment.

• 22:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Some are not.

• 22:29Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it is.

• 22:34Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. That's so crazy with the little backpack and the jumpsuit.

• 22:39Speaker 05

  And you're saying it was like a some sort of a metal detector thing and they're on the beach in Mexico. It's like what is.

• 22:44Jesse Michels?

  So weird.

• 22:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 22:45Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, no, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something.

• 22:48Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, it's absurd.

• 22:49Jesse Michels?

  That's absurd.

• 22:50Speaker 05

  Showtime.

• 22:51Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of it, in this case, an amazing UFO. This is Klaus's new book, Files of the Unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo?

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's taken by Hannah McRoberts, which you'll see if you can find it in here so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was.

• 23:21Jesse Michels?

  Yep. I mean, look at that.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  So this is Vancouver Island.

• 23:28Jesse Michels?

  And you've met her, right?

• 23:29Speaker 02

  I talked with her on telephone.

• 23:30Jesse Michels?

  So what's the story behind this photo?

• 23:32Speaker 02

  Well, she was out driving together with her husband and she stopped. This mountain is quite well known. This was October the 8th, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on and got the, because it's an old film, this is not a digital film, it's an old camera. She found that there was something up in the air and it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome.

• 24:05Jesse Michels?

  Do you think this photo is real?

• 24:07Speaker 02

  I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times and.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  I mean, she didn't fake it anyway. I think she is really doing this because she's curious about it. She don't understand.

• 24:25Jesse Michels?

  She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying vibes.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Absolutely not. She helped us with the picture and no problem with that. I mean, it's like this very famous picture, you know, there's with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress. And her father out on this moor, there were only them. His wife, little girl, took the picture. And when he got it back from the photographer, the business, you could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed it said, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stands behind her. It's called the astronaut because this looks like an astronaut. And nobody knows how it ended up there.

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Out on this moor, only them, only the three of them, free horizon.

• 25:18Jesse Michels?

  Wow. What are the most, because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in the US of abductees or experiencers, over 50% experience humanoid creatures. So creatures that, you know, seem to be bipedal, walking upright.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:37Jesse Michels?

  Almost very similar to humans in many ways.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:40Jesse Michels?

  Is that similar to what you experienced in Scandinavia?

• 25:43Speaker 02

  I mean, we get stories from people that have seen like box-like entities floating.

• 25:51Speaker 00

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• 26:21Speaker 02

  So you get it all if you are into this for a couple of decades.

• 26:26Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  You will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids.

• 26:31Jesse Michels?

  So interesting. So yeah, alien is such a simplistic. It's such an oversimplification.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 26:37Jesse Michels?

  The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone. They're out in space and they've come here.

• 26:41Speaker 02

  It makes us understand it. We want to understand strange things.

• 26:44Jesse Michels?

  Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny. Everybody references in the U.S. The 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, OSAP or whatever. The program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And before that, you had Bigelow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. There are poltergeists. There's like a werewolf. And that's how some of the anti UFO people try to show they think it's like all crazy or whatever.

• 27:26Jesse Michels?

  But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can't memeify it into this simple. You know, it's just a gray alien and they're from Zeta Reticuli. They're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of whack a mole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Good summary, I think. I mean, you must really look very broad at this. And that's why I have you here. It's not only, only UFO library. It's about the unknown.

• 27:56Jesse Michels?

  So how do you make? Cause you have done this Herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described? It's almost like Descartes' demon where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places. And it's like, how do you progress in a field where?

• 28:32Jesse Michels?

  It's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans, you know, how do you progress?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  It is very difficult to do that.

• 28:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  So most ufologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject.

• 28:45Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing.

• 28:51Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most ufologists are saying, okay, this is not interesting. I'm looking at that.

• 29:02Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  And I think that's not the way forward, really.

• 29:06Jesse Michels?

  But even beyond that, like I look at like, you know, Jacques Vallée, who we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, French godfather of a lot of modern research. Amazing guy. And, you know, on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge. He, you know, like if you read some of his early books, like Invisible College or something in 1975, are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then?

• 29:39Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 29:40Jesse Michels?

  I don't think so either.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  That's sad, really.

• 29:42Jesse Michels?

  It is.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  And it's really impossible to get further because it's so juge.

• 29:49Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  And there is no really good scientific approach to this.

• 29:54Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Yet. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well.

• 30:02Jesse Michels?

  Would one new scientific model involve, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:10Jesse Michels?

  And then you have the observed and there's a, you know, clear distinct separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I met with a friend of mine who is a doctor and he's also very much into the human consciousness research.

• 30:31Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  He's done research on twins and see what happened if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected.

• 30:36Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Twins are interacting without knowing that.

• 30:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomenon.

• 30:53Jesse Michels?

  It has to be.

• 30:54Speaker 02

  And I think so as well.

• 30:55Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:56Jesse Michels?

  Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology and that sort of thing?

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:00Jesse Michels?

  Because if there is some sort of mind-matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what we see.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, we know so little about what's inside our heads.

• 31:10Jesse Michels?

  Yes, yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Great mass, but that's not the answer.

• 31:15Jesse Michels?

  Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques Vallée, he says, you know, "I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet."

• 31:23Speaker 06

  From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet, because I think they could be something much more interesting.

• 31:33Jesse Michels?

  It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with spacetime itself, where time seems like time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all or considered?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, a scientist to approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part. There need to be a group of scientists and UFO lovers or whatever doing this together.

• 32:15Jesse Michels?

  Time travel. Time travel? There's a time travel section? No, what? Time and time travel? What? Time loops and space twists.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Let's see if I can find a Wendell Stevens documentary.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  I have no other clue. Oh, now I would crush.

• 32:41Jesse Michels?

  Crush Omar. I'm just kidding.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  You can spare him. This is the NASA scientist.

• 32:47Jesse Michels?

  Oh, wow, dude.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  So you can see here, if you read the labels here.

• 32:53Jesse Michels?

  Corliss.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, William Corliss, he wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project.

• 32:58Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  Only about enigmas.

• 33:01Jesse Michels?

  So.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  So here you can see.

• 33:02Jesse Michels?

  Psychology.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  His working papers. Then he passed away and I I cultivated his widow and it took me a couple of years.

• 33:09Jesse Michels?

  Was he at all like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs? Or it's just a hobby?

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a hobby. This is what they looked like.

• 33:19Jesse Michels?

  Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh, my God. This guy's a genius.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:24Jesse Michels?

  Who is this guy?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  He was a genius.

• 33:25Jesse Michels?

  This is amazing.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  We corresponded for many years, then he passed.

• 33:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  And then I I wrote to his estate.

• 33:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Working on it with his his son. And his wife was ninety plus.

• 33:38Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And she started to compile everything in order for us.

• 33:41Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  And we sent two pallets from the US.

• 33:44Jesse Michels?

  Oh, she's amazing.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association, BSRA.

• 33:56Jesse Michels?

  What? That's the most interesting UFO organization because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in case, certain cases in the forties.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:10Jesse Michels?

  About stuff.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  They were first.

• 34:12Jesse Michels?

  So what what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:21Jesse Michels?

  So, oh, it's so. And then they had, they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  I went to Eureka, California.

• 34:29Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  I met with this guy in his garage.

• 34:32Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  And we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden.

• 34:35Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And you have Tesla and what is this? Brown and Burridge?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  It's probably correspondence.

• 34:42Jesse Michels?

  Who's Brown?

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Maybe Townsend Brown. I'm not sure. You can take a look. I don't, I don't know.

• 34:49Jesse Michels?

  The immortal cell.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Ron Brown.

• 34:52Jesse Michels?

  Ron Brown. Oh, it's, oh, Townsend Brown.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:55Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  You can take a look and see what this is.

• 35:00Jesse Michels?

  It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year. No phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just seventy nine dollars, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, twenty twenty six me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams.

• 35:45Jesse Michels?

  They're soft, but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get fifteen percent off their first order plus free shipping at theperfectjean.nyc or just Google the perfect jean and use code JESSE15 for fifteen percent off. That's fifteen percent off for new customers at theperfectjean.nyc with promo code JESSE15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Hear khakis and get the perfect jean. T T Brown electrokinetic generator. Here, look, that's amazing.

• 36:27Jesse Michels?

  Patent office for the electrokinetic generator. Well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  They have some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring. But I'm not sure if they are functioning. But I think they are still left in Eureka.

• 36:43Jesse Michels?

  Really? What apparatus?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches.

• 36:49Jesse Michels?

  Really? What?

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:51Jesse Michels?

  I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple of months ago.

• 36:58Jesse Michels?

  The man who mastered gravity?

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:00Jesse Michels?

  What did you think?

• 37:01Speaker 02

  I think it was fascinating.

• 37:02Jesse Michels?

  It's fascinating, right?

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:04Jesse Michels?

  Isn't he the most interesting man?

• 37:06Speaker 02

  So many mysteries around him.

• 37:07Jesse Michels?

  So many mysteries around him.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  He was on to something, I think, so.

• 37:11Jesse Michels?

  I think so.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:13Jesse Michels?

  I think there's something very interesting about him.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown.

• 37:18Jesse Michels?

  Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. The Holy Grail of Physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link.

• 37:46Jesse Michels?

  Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most?

• 37:52Speaker 02

  I grew up with the Bonnie and Betty Hill case, of course, and that was hugely important to me. And when I met Betty many years ago, in the early, middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses.

• 38:09Jesse Michels?

  What was your new view on her when you met with her?

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I was... Most ufologists, if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter with Indian Head.

• 38:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  But she was.

• 38:25Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 38:26Speaker 02

  And not only that, she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her, her, I think it was sister, whatever, it was a relative. And something came crossing the sky and crashed. And they went out on the field and brought back debris.

• 38:45Jesse Michels?

  What?

• 38:46Speaker 02

  From this crashed object.

• 38:47Speaker 07

  A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s, I was over here in Maine, visiting with the family. And it was a long night, and we're sitting outdoors on the porch, when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane, very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching it, it exploded mid-air and burned. Now, we said, you know, we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio, we turned on the TV, nothing.

• 39:28Speaker 07

  Well, up to my, by my mother's. My nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky. And he watched it, and when it cooled off, he got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me and said, no, we don't know what it is. Maybe, uh, I had some friends at the university. Maybe you could get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces. And I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them.

• 40:09Speaker 07

  So just before, about four days before we left to go on the trip. Barney said, what's that stuff up on the top shelf? Why don't you throw it away? We could use the shelf. Well, I was having some fill put in the backyard. So I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard. And when they dumped the sand, they covered them. About three days later, we go on the trip.

• 40:41Jesse Michels?

  Really? Betty Hill?

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she brought it.

• 40:43Jesse Michels?

  Before her encounter?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden.

• 40:48Jesse Michels?

  Oh, so we gotta go to her house?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  You must dig there.

• 40:51Jesse Michels?

  I will.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not her house anymore, so.

• 40:53Jesse Michels?

  But it's in, in New Hampshire?

• 40:55Speaker 02

  It's in Portsmouth.

• 40:56Jesse Michels?

  In Portsmouth, New Hampshire? No way.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  So that story you can listen to at, at I F U's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in, in, in writing, and you can hear her voice telling this as well. So the bottom line is she was very much into your phone.

• 41:13Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating. We gotta go dig.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  And not a single you follow this, really. cares about this. They don't want to know this.

• 41:20Jesse Michels?

  Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:24Jesse Michels?

  And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Jesse Michels?

  Contact her.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:29Jesse Michels?

  Say, hey, we're the residents of the current house. This is under, we can go dig and find this thing.

• 41:35Speaker 05

  You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill.

• 41:38Speaker 04

  Oh geez.

• 41:38Speaker 05

  Oh geez. First abductees, nineteen sixty one.

• 41:42Speaker 04

  No, I know his granddaughter.

• 41:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, she Angela Hill, right? She's UFC fighter?

• 41:46Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:46Speaker 05

  So cool.

• 41:47Speaker 04

  Crazy.

• 41:47Speaker 05

  What does she say?

• 41:48Speaker 04

  She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over.

• 41:53Jesse Michels?

  You don't tell Joe Rogan?

• 41:54Speaker 04

  Grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad.

• 41:58Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 41:59Speaker 02

  You should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say.

• 42:02Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  And she told a very interesting story. And also when she draw the object to me. Uh, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim like a, like a hat.

• 42:16Jesse Michels?

  Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And uh, uh, as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all day and talked with her. So, but it complicated the story.

• 42:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is in nineteen sixty one, Betty and Barney Hill, they were an interracial couple. And they were ACLU activists, actually. And they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara Falls, or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire. And on the way, uh, they see this craft and it's flying around. And I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience. But um, like Barney starts to like go after the saucer, like almost like, it's like he's locked into it. And it's like, she's afraid and wants to keep going.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  And then he's very afraid after that. So.

• 43:11Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  He don't want to pursue it.

• 43:13Speaker 07

  I'll take my head. Pull the pedocles away. God, give me strength. All right. Pull him down.

• 43:24Speaker 07

  Pulling the pedocles down and run. God. It says, my God, give me strength. I gotta get away. Oh, oh.

• 43:35Jesse Michels?

  So anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli. Uh, they have these uniforms on, these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft. Reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that he like, um, samples were taken, like gametes were taken for themselves from him. So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth.

• 44:00Jesse Michels?

  Ah, interesting.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  And they came running into Betty and asking, oh, what, what's that?

• 44:05Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know.

• 44:14Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:15Jesse Michels?

  But they're in, in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like, it's like this, uh, routine thing.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with a needle. And that was old here at that point, really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Zeta Reticuli use a method that is ancient?

• 44:45Jesse Michels?

  What do you think?

• 44:46Speaker 02

  I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis.

• 44:52Jesse Michels?

  Yes, later hypnotic regression.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  They never really, uh, remembered it, uh, in the waking.

• 44:58Jesse Michels?

  So what do you think they had an encounter with?

• 45:31Speaker 02

  That's very hard to tell, but I think that all those stories are much more complicated. Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth.

• 45:42Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  She told Barney about her interest in that, and he didn't like that at all.

• 45:48Jesse Michels?

  But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them. When in fact, what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said were from Zeta Reticuli, that does point.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Well, they didn't say that because that was the star map.

• 46:03Jesse Michels?

  She drew a star map. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  And that star map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars.

• 46:10Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  So it's not.

• 46:12Jesse Michels?

  But they said we're from another star system. Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  She asked about this map on the wall. And they told her that this was a commercial lines where they were traveling to make this.

• 46:26Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  Really.

• 46:27Jesse Michels?

  I believe, have you read American Cosmic by Diana Pasulka? Or are you familiar with it?

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:33Jesse Michels?

  So she talks about the CBS show Outer Limits playing.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  That was at that time.

• 46:40Jesse Michels?

  Playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter that Benny and Barney Hill had.

• 46:45Speaker 02

  Show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard.

• 46:50Jesse Michels?

  That had happened before.

• 46:51Speaker 02

  So many things before. So you cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis.

• 46:57Jesse Michels?

  Right. Well, Pasulka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well. So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by, yeah, maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:14Jesse Michels?

  So interesting.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:15Jesse Michels?

  You know, also another weird fact about that case is C D Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran Psychological Warfare and was very involved in MKUltra. And then went on to, I believe, give this Supruder film, which is the, you know, film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time Magazine because he's. Very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the Psychological Strategy Board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 47:55Jesse Michels?

  So interesting. It's like, so it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the elite of American Warfare Operations, you know, a guy who's very high up in government, going to visit these two abductees. So strange in 1961.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow.

• 48:11Jesse Michels?

  I don't know.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  It's not easy, you know.

• 48:14Jesse Michels?

  It's not easy, but I think we have to find that artifact.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:18Jesse Michels?

  Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are there any other objects?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have. Here in Sweden, we have up in the north. There was a guy who said that he was a young boy. He met these craft and aliens outside his house. And he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. And he hid it, hid it on the ground. And we went there together with him, trying to find it.

• 48:46Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  But we couldn't find it.

• 48:48Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 48:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:49Jesse Michels?

  Is there anything, have you ever found any objects that you think are?

• 48:52Speaker 02

  No, no, we haven't. The only one that I showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bona fide smoking gun thing like that.

• 49:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side? Objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with? Because, as you know, Jacques Vallée publishes his mailing address online.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:15Jesse Michels?

  People will mail him pieces and recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan Experience and, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and this fisherman.

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Magnesium.

• 49:28Jesse Michels?

  Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratios.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  I'd also read that there were such things at that time.

• 49:38Jesse Michels?

  Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques? It just feels a little crazy, but.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  And why would you build a spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really, it's not very good to travel in.

• 50:00Jesse Michels?

  Oh, I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:03Jesse Michels?

  Because magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, um, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the Bifield Brown effect. Been named after Townsend Brown. And if you put a high K dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the K, the dielectric. So all of his papers include, uh, it's two things. It's um, barium, aluminum barium and magnesium bismuth. And so, and, and, and bismuth specifically is this big, this big, really important part.

• 50:46Jesse Michels?

  But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some, some issues with it.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, magnesium itself is not good, but if this alloy may be something different.

• 50:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, it seems like the, what he found had, uh, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair.

• 51:00Speaker 06

  Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair.

• 51:07Jesse Michels?

  And so it was extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale. And you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these, these things, so.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  But why do they explode over Yubato?

• 51:26Jesse Michels?

  So that, the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust. That was, that's almost like the, the byproduct of the craft and who knows, you know, but.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.

• 51:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using?

• 51:42Speaker 05

  They need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an of an effect? That where they take the natural things and then they're doing something? And this ends up being the outcome? And then when they're done with it, they go, eh, and they throw it out.

• 52:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can?

• 52:03Speaker 02

  I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can.

• 52:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in nineteen eighty, there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damajaur. And we have been there. And we have radar returns that something is in the mud.

• 52:30Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:31Jesse Michels?

  Amazing.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:32Jesse Michels?

  So when are you gonna go look?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  We will be there again next year.

• 52:35Jesse Michels?

  That's exciting.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses.

• 52:40Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  In the middle of the day. And they could see this object coming below one hundred meters.

• 52:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  Flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around one eighty.

• 52:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Towards them, lands with a splash. And sinking and bubbles are coming up. And then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from their rucksack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone. But they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm. And contacts the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Sturridge Wickers, he really looks into this, trying to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent an helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots and he told me this is a natural park, a natural park. You're not allowed to land there.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  But suddenly, one of the passengers felt sick.

• 53:43Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:44Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  So hit their lens.

• 53:46Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  Uh, and I can see dead fish on the, on the, near the shore. So I take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power. Some radioactivity, I killed the fish, but it was, it was only a parasite.

• 54:00Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later.

• 54:05Jesse Michels?

  So just a parasite?

• 54:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:08Jesse Michels?

  He thought maybe it is.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  It's there, it's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake.

• 54:17Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  But in between, two meters. And exactly there, we got this return from an object that is still resting there.

• 54:28Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 54:28Speaker 02

  We don't know what it is, but.

• 54:30Jesse Michels?

  But there is some object. Do you know the, do you know the shape of the object?

• 54:33Speaker 02

  No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip, we will look in three dimensions.

• 54:39Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a national park.

• 54:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  So if you find something, we cannot bring it up.

• 54:48Jesse Michels?

  Well, if you need any extra media, media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  I call you.

• 54:56Jesse Michels?

  That sounds amazing.

• 54:57Speaker 02

  It is amazing, and this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects have, like in Norway. Flying very, very low.

• 55:07Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  Turning, navigating, landing, sinking.

• 55:11Jesse Michels?

  Interesting. And it always seems to be in water.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Always water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer, they are out. It's good observation. I mean, I could see over the lake. But not a single one has seen any object flying over the lake and not landing.

• 55:36Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby.

• 55:44Jesse Michels?

  It's so interesting. Why do you think that is?

• 55:46Speaker 02

  I mean, they want to land, they want to crash, they want to pinpoint the lake, that's for sure. And I'm not sure why they, they do this.

• 55:55Jesse Michels?

  Do you think it's fuel?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  I mean, they're running out of fuel?

• 56:01Jesse Michels?

  No, do you think water is their fuel?

• 56:03Speaker 02

  Oh, you mean that?

• 56:04Jesse Michels?

  Because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O, are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic. That would be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power a craft.

• 56:22Speaker 02

  I think it's like driving your car into a gas station full of power and trying to get some petrol.

• 56:30Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away.

• 56:35Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  But they are either crashing straight down.

• 56:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Or landing quite hard.

• 56:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  You can always say that.

• 56:46Jesse Michels?

  Refueling, I just, who knows, you know? It's interesting. I mean, they do, water just seems like this very important element, you know? The idea that they're transmedium.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  Water is important. It is. Not a single object has crashed on land in Sweden or Norway.

• 57:01Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing, yeah. The fact that they literally only, the ghost rocket phenomenon. But you're saying, because we talked about this the other week.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:09Jesse Michels?

  You're saying that it was, it's not just the ghost rocket phenomenon that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only hit, landed in the water in Sweden generally.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Sweden, Scandinavia.

• 57:22Jesse Michels?

  In Scandinavia?

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:23Jesse Michels?

  So post forty-six, forty-seven, all UFOs. That's amazing.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is wow.

• 57:31Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  And it's all, nearly always, eleven o'clock, July, clear weather, hot weather.

• 57:39Jesse Michels?

  That's what you said last time. It's so wild.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  So strange.

• 57:42Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on, or observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses or whatever.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they should see some flybys.

• 57:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, it's weird.

• 57:51Speaker 02

  I don't. They only see those landings and crashes.

• 57:55Jesse Michels?

  It's so strange.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  But we have only small sample. I mean, maybe thirty.

• 57:59Jesse Michels?

  Still, that's a, the fact that, I mean, that's enough to, that's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DoD archives here in Sweden.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:14Jesse Michels?

  What did you see?

• 58:16Speaker 02

  I've been looking for the files from a very important military. Customs Police Operation in the early nineteen seventies. They are still to be released in two thousand forty. But I just the other day got the clearance to to to get them cleared.

• 58:34Jesse Michels?

  And did you see them?

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I looked through them, but I will get a copy of them in a week or two.

• 58:39Jesse Michels?

  Well, what did you what did you see?

• 58:40Speaker 02

  The interesting thing is that I found uh one observation that I knew the observer. This helicopter pilot, he was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in night time. Very strange object, sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift, go up with his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week. He was flying twenty meters over the treetops.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  And it was moonshine, it was uh um snow, so it was very, very good seeing. And suddenly this object coming, flying under the helicopter, over the treetops. And this small passage of twenty meters.

• 59:41Speaker 02

  And straight up in front of them. An elongated rocket-like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing. And it just flies away. And it it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter.

• 59:57Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  And now, when I got those documents, I found this report. Um I can see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths. And also the the note from the military.

• 1:00:12Jesse Michels?

  So it's picked up by radar?

• 1:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:15Jesse Michels?

  And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter?

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they land after this, their landing.

• 1:00:25Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  And the security, the military security uh personnel comes and and debrief them.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  And he tells a story and they went, went away.

• 1:00:37Jesse Michels?

  What was the shape of the object?

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings.

• 1:00:42Jesse Michels?

  So similar to the ghost rockets?

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Typical ghost rocket.

• 1:00:45Jesse Michels?

  Typical ghost rocket. What year was this?

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Uh, nineteen seventy-five, uh, November the seventh.

• 1:00:52Jesse Michels?

  How fast was it moving, the object?

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Uh, it was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see because of the moon and, and the snow on the ground.

• 1:01:01Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing because in the U S you have, you know, the kind of, one of the holy grail events is the Tic Tac Incident at Nimitz in two thousand and four. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the D O D archives that this object intersected this helicopter at this time. That's amazing.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  And I will talk to his co-pilot in a, in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we have two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes.

• 1:01:49Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Uh, I have no access to them and I think I will not have any access to them.

• 1:01:54Jesse Michels?

  Well, how would you get that?

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  I will, I will try to get it, but.

• 1:01:57Jesse Michels?

  How would you get the security personnel?

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Uh, I know people that works within the war archives.

• 1:02:03Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  And they can help me to say if it's there.

• 1:02:07Jesse Michels?

  To see if like he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm sure he was because all operation was built on that, that you were debriefing people after all those events.

• 1:02:19Jesse Michels?

  And did you, and you've spoken to this witness firsthand?

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot, uh, just a couple of days ago.

• 1:02:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  As soon as I found, find those, uh, documentations.

• 1:02:32Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter.

• 1:02:41Jesse Michels?

  And this is being declassified for everybody? At, at what point will this be released to the public?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it, it will be. Uh, when I'm getting it, it will be.

• 1:02:51Jesse Michels?

  And so what, when, when will that be? When this will be released?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Uh, in a couple of weeks, I think. Uh, it all depends on how much I have to do, uh, scanning.

• 1:03:02Jesse Michels?

  Is the pilot in Stockholm?

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:03:05Jesse Michels?

  Where is the pilot?

• 1:03:06Speaker 02

  He's far away from here.

• 1:03:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay. In Sweden, though.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  He's really nearer Norway than Stockholm, in Sweden, yeah.

• 1:03:13Jesse Michels?

  Damn.

• 1:03:13Speaker 02

  The other pilot is in Australia.

• 1:03:16Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Wow.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

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• 1:03:49Jesse Michels?

  Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case.

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  It is a good case. And I hope that I can really find all the pieces here.

• 1:04:00Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any other cases like that, where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very hard.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes, military radar, UFO.

• 1:04:13Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:14Jesse Michels?

  You've seen with your own eyes? Military? And when was that? And what's the context?

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  It was, I think, in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting, playing card, quite late. And they hear a strange noise. So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get his mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare. But it's a very bright object.

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  And it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is very, it's a very secret. You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming. Going around.

• 1:05:21Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  So, yeah, that's a case you can corroborate.

• 1:05:26Jesse Michels?

  That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material, have you seen the remnants of a UFO? Just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment in some way that's left there.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  No, not here in Sweden, no.

• 1:05:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay. Because you told me last time about lily pads being affected by the ghost rockets. And so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like, it's a really important, you know.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden.

• 1:06:01Jesse Michels?

  Ah, really?

• 1:06:02Speaker 02

  I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of nineteen seventy-three, nineteen seventy-four. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the launch. And they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar-shaped object moving like this. So they are running down into their radar equipments and look, then they can see the object on their radar screens. And it's doing ninety degrees angles like this.

• 1:06:41Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:06:42Speaker 02

  And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And every one of those six, I found them during several years, are telling the same story.

• 1:06:54Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Jesse Michels?

  All six?

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff?

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  No, I have them on tape only, but.

• 1:07:04Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's good.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  The problem is that they told me that their commander is in the mountain. They were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen, so they did.

• 1:07:15Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  But I haven't found them. I don't know where they can be.

• 1:07:20Jesse Michels?

  Is the tape published on your website or?

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  No, no, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  This is Hilary Evans and his wife, Mary Evans. And they run this... They are passed away now, but it's still Mary Evans Picture Library. You can buy pictures, one of the biggest picture archives in England.

• 1:07:45Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  So, and half of the books you see here comes from Hilary.

• 1:07:49Jesse Michels?

  Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are the classic ones, really.

• 1:07:55Jesse Michels?

  Ah, yeah, Frederick W. H. Myers.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Jesse Michels?

  I have that book.

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  And we have it in very early editions.

• 1:08:03Jesse Michels?

  You know what inspired him to write this book?

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  I don't remember now.

• 1:08:06Jesse Michels?

  Jesus's resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Well, he didn't manage that.

• 1:08:15Jesse Michels?

  William James was president of Society for Psychical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that.

• 1:08:26Jesse Michels?

  You know what this is?

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:08:29Jesse Michels?

  What do you think of this?

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracy theorists...

• 1:08:35Jesse Michels?

  Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing very bad.

• 1:08:42Jesse Michels?

  Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares.

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:46Jesse Michels?

  So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the Earth might be weakening.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven.

• 1:08:58Jesse Michels?

  Yes, but the Charles Hapgood, that that creates this sort of cataclysm.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  No, not Charles Hapgood's theory, really.

• 1:09:05Jesse Michels?

  You know, okay.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  The science theory is really solid and it could be problematic when it happens.

• 1:09:11Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  Because every gadget you have, like, trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy.

• 1:09:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, and some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out if...

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  If that happens today.

• 1:09:28Jesse Michels?

  It'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no... Your grid would be down, no running water.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:37Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  And we don't have the spare parts.

• 1:09:39Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:40Speaker 02

  So it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system.

• 1:09:45Jesse Michels?

  Do you think that solar flares send with them a message? Or there's any sort of intelligent? You know, there's a scientist in the UK. He's in London, in Hampstead, outside of London, named Rupert Sheldrake.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I know about him, yeah.

• 1:10:00Jesse Michels?

  He writes about the sun being conscious.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. He wrote a Gaia book in the 1970s.

• 1:10:06Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  I grew up with that, and I know about Rupert Sheldrake very well.

• 1:10:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star.

• 1:10:13Jesse Michels?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  And the star does what the star does.

• 1:10:15Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  And the Earth is not important to the star.

• 1:10:19Jesse Michels?

  Yes, but, okay, if I were to push back, maybe. The magnetosphere of the Earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like, you could put a frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schumann resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle. Allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, biological evolution. Like, if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive.

• 1:11:02Jesse Michels?

  And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that Hal Puthoff is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. The NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Jesse Michels?

  And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun. And they move in ways that are, don't decay or attenuate over spacetime like your traditional transverse Hertzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on Earth via the sun.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that, and they are not aware of it. They only do their thing.

• 1:11:47Jesse Michels?

  Hmm hmm.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  But of course, it affects the life on Earth, absolutely.

• 1:11:51Jesse Michels?

  Yes. But you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're, ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not conscious. And so. You know, we'll never know.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  We never know, of course, but I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun or...

• 1:12:13Jesse Michels?

  It's impossible to say, though. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically, but, um, you know, are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale?

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Jesse Michels?

  You know, I don't know.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  We are a tiny fraction of the universe, so...

• 1:12:32Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:12:37Jesse Michels?

  This is my friend, Frederick Guldahl. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him?

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:44Jesse Michels?

  Ah, he's cool. Amar and I met him, actually. Was it, it was two summers ago. This is right before we did the David Grush thing.

• 1:12:54Speaker 05

  So how many countries do you have files from?

• 1:12:56Speaker 02

  Two.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  I don't know. I have no answer to that, but we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files.

• 1:13:02Speaker 05

  Wow.

• 1:13:03Speaker 02

  I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. And when I went there, it was fighting in the street. There were soldiers everywhere, and there was shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files.

• 1:13:19Jesse Michels?

  Amar, do you have any, is there anything coming up for you or? Because you have spent decades doing this, and I'm just curious why.

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several, several cases. I know, know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning.

• 1:14:10Jesse Michels?

  Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going? Where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting, something...

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  I'm not quite stubborn, you know?

• 1:14:25Jesse Michels?

  What's that?

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  I'm stubborn.

• 1:14:26Jesse Michels?

  It sounds like you are.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm a... I'm a natural researcher, really, from the beginning. I'm amateur astronomer and all that. And I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden.

• 1:14:41Jesse Michels?

  It's amazing.

• 1:14:42Speaker 02

  So people know that I really try very hard. And of course, it's okay to believe, but I want to know.

• 1:14:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. And when you say no, what is that? If you were to instantiate that in something very specific?

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want to know what happened, really. I'm not sure I want, I can not.

• 1:14:58Jesse Michels?

  So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material? You want a material where you're like, this is definitely.

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  In every single case, I want to know what happened.

• 1:15:08Jesse Michels?

  Oh, that's tough, man.

• 1:15:11Jesse Michels?

  Because.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  It's tough.

• 1:15:12Jesse Michels?

  I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like, if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti-gravity, some, you know, you know, heavy element reactor thing. What would that do for us? Like, would that would be?

• 1:15:33Speaker 02

  Change everything, of course.

• 1:15:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, it would change everything, but it would beget a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now. It'd be like, I know. Tell me what is going on.

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's impossible. Yeah. As you say, every knowledge gets some new questions.

• 1:15:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, that's true. Knowledge, um, questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like, you could think of knowledge like a, like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. The more the sphere grows, the, the questions grow, you know, the outside at an exponent.

• 1:16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Jesse Michels?

  And so it's the, the more you know, the less you know. And that, that really should be sort of with, with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like, there's this received wisdom. And it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you know, you get to the end of the chapter and it's, that's it, you know, end of it. But nothing is that simple.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today.

• 1:16:37Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  But the mountain is resting on this. Mountain that is even bigger.

• 1:16:43Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  That is moving into the future.

• 1:16:46Jesse Michels?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  Suddenly, we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain.

• 1:16:51Jesse Michels?

  Are there any philosophers in UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think

• 1:17:00Jesse Michels?

  speak most to the UFO question? Or researchers that you're really inspired by?

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm inspired by, of course, we had said Shakvali, but Chris Obeck. He's a very, very good researcher. He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases.

• 1:17:19Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  He's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Saucers shows that the saucer shape is so scarce. It's not very much reported.

• 1:17:33Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  Still, people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer-like. But it's only a fraction of all the observations.

• 1:17:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Are saucer-like.

• 1:17:43Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, even if you look at like where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case. It wasn't really saucers.

• 1:17:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:17:51Jesse Michels?

  They kind of look more like Horton Wing.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were crescents.

• 1:17:54Jesse Michels?

  Crescents, yeah. Like ninja stars or something.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. Do you think, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers? Are you familiar with this?

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I read it, yeah.

• 1:18:07Jesse Michels?

  And he said that, you know, that was the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness, is represented in the UFO.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Archetype he talks about. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to UFO research.

• 1:18:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  But of course, if you're living in society, in a society, you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to.

• 1:18:33Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  And we are conforming. All the time. So it's not strange that those airships in the eighteen hundreds.

• 1:18:41Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships.

• 1:18:46Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  It's just that we are using the words we have the most high-tech thing we can think of.

• 1:18:54Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  So I don't think it must be anything of that.

• 1:18:57Jesse Michels?

  But what's also just John Mack, you know, Harvard, um, you know, head of the psychiatry department there. He would say that the the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it is in some ways.

• 1:19:11Speaker 02

  Think of really, I think.

• 1:19:12Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself, like airships. Were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing.

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:19:29Jesse Michels?

  In the eighteen nineties. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know.

• 1:19:36Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon.

• 1:19:43Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  They read the sci-fi first.

• 1:19:45Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done.

• 1:19:48Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  So you need that element to be able to take the next step.

• 1:19:53Jesse Michels?

  You do. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological. Element almost always supersedes the the actual doing of the of the thing.

• 1:20:04Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:20:04Jesse Michels?

  But I think we've. Lost that for at least a little period after World War Two, maybe, and now it seems like things are speeding up again.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  I mean, after the World War Two, we were occupied with other stuff, really.

• 1:20:16Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  Building the world again. So. Yeah, the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for for a while.

• 1:20:23Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves? That interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye?

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  I don't think so. No, I don't think so.

• 1:20:37Jesse Michels?

  Cause you said you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right?

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:40Jesse Michels?

  So Edgar Mitchell is the um, sixth man to walk on the moon.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:45Jesse Michels?

  He uh, Apollo fourteen on the way back from the moon, he had this sort of. Parapsychological conversion where he.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  He wanted to experiment with the Swedish guy, really.

• 1:20:54Jesse Michels?

  Ah, really? Tell me about it.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, they they had managed to put this program that uh. Uh, Edgar Mitchell should be sending things. The other one was to pick them up.

• 1:21:05Jesse Michels?

  So like a typical mind matter uh experiment. We have a sender and a receiver.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:12Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  But there are some problems with that because the timeframes were not all. They were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it.

• 1:21:21Jesse Michels?

  Very. And was it a successful experiment?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Uh, not that successful.

• 1:21:26Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:21:27Jesse Michels?

  That's too bad.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Didn't prove anything really. No, but it was done and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell, too, that worked with psychical things.

• 1:21:39Jesse Michels?

  The Noetic Society.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:41Jesse Michels?

  What, did you learn anything when you spent time with him?

• 1:21:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen a UFO in space.

• 1:21:49Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 1:21:51Jesse Michels?

  I'm not sure about that.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  I'm sure. He said it to me. So I mean.

• 1:21:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, but maybe.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  He knew them all.

• 1:21:56Jesse Michels?

  But they all sign NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but um Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War Two.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:22:08Jesse Michels?

  And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, I'm in this country, I'm in this country. And he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:25Jesse Michels?

  And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says.

• 1:22:32Speaker 06

  I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in SETI and he got labeled a UFO freak or something. And I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's gonna help put civilians into space. I, I can't do it.

• 1:22:51Jesse Michels?

  He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs. But if he did, it would hurt his reputation.

• 1:22:56Speaker 06

  Then he said, he said, and how's my story gonna change anything anyway?

• 1:23:01Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:01Speaker 06

  And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Uh, your testimony would be paramount.

• 1:23:10Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:23:10Speaker 06

  Uh, to, to do that. And remember, this is in the nineties, right?

• 1:23:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, probably late 90s. I talked to, asked him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not gonna happen. So that I was devastated, like devastated.

• 1:23:29Jesse Michels?

  I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? But you never know, you wanna believe. But he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so, and then there's speculation, obviously, in American Cosmic that astronauts sign NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed, his name is Tim Taylor, is NASA mission controller. And he says, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. So you think?

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  I know a lot of astronauts in Cosmic.

• 1:24:03Jesse Michels?

  You do, yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  And not a single one of them has said anything like that.

• 1:24:08Jesse Michels?

  Fair enough. Do you know any very well? Or like, you know?

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well.

• 1:24:13Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  I go to Noga Mitchell very well.

• 1:24:15Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon. And a few, maybe 10 cosmonauts from Russia.

• 1:24:24Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule.

• 1:24:35Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  It produced those ice particles flying out.

• 1:24:38Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  And he said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know, but I only try to comment on things that I really spend time.

• 1:24:50Jesse Michels?

  Do you know who Leonav is? The, one of the fathers of the Russian space program?

• 1:24:56Speaker 02

  No, I don't know him.

• 1:24:57Jesse Michels?

  So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Eia Whitley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts. And she says they all see stuff in space too. So it's so interesting because you seem extremely hard headed and thorough. I mean, you're like the most thorough guy ever. And so like, I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  I want to hear it from the horse's mouth.

• 1:25:23Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  Not from someone else who says, oh, they have.

• 1:25:26Jesse Michels?

  Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, no, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is? Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseam in American UFO disclosure, you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. And they're meeting outside of the EG and G parking lot and Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs.

• 1:26:10Speaker 05

  That wasn't meant for public consumption and that was released from Mitchell's estate. And that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from, from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and, and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document, if, if he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand.

• 1:26:37Jesse Michels?

  It seems like Edgar Mitchell is, had some really interesting access.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  He was very interested.

• 1:26:45Jesse Michels?

  In UFOs.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Very interesting.

• 1:26:48Jesse Michels?

  Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know?

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  I mean, he was a believer even before, I mean.

• 1:27:01Jesse Michels?

  He was?

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So he was curious about this, but he didn't see anything and he says that no one else did. So I only can tell what he told me.

• 1:27:11Jesse Michels?

  What were the interesting things he told you?

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  And we talked a lot about, he met with Yuri Geller, you know, he did experiments with Yuri Geller. He was very much impressed by him. I met with Yuri Geller as well. I'm not impressed by him at all.

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do.

• 1:27:27Jesse Michels?

  Yeah. He seems like a bit of a con man.

• 1:27:30Speaker 02

  He's a, yeah.

• 1:27:31Jesse Michels?

  Well, he also, now he goes on Twitter and he goes, he goes Putin, don't press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to, and it's like, he's been wrong so many times.

• 1:27:43Speaker 02

  Nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randi, you know James Randi?

• 1:27:49Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, we sat like this, but even closer.

• 1:27:52Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  And he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he did it. He bent it like that, I couldn't see it.

• 1:27:59Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  But the thing he did, he put my, my hand over my own watch.

• 1:28:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  And then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it. And it was five hours like that.

• 1:28:09Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  And we did it again, and it was back to the same time.

• 1:28:14Jesse Michels?

  So interesting, interesting.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  It's hard to do that, but.

• 1:28:18Jesse Michels?

  Well, he was an amazing magician.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was the amazing Randy.

• 1:28:21Jesse Michels?

  The amazing Randy. But he, he also, I don't know, I think in some ways he could have been a bad faith actor. Yuri Geller is one of these things where cases where, you know, the Princeton parapsychology lab has a whole

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:36Jesse Michels?

  book on Yuri Geller and like they studied him a lot. Andrej Puharic brought Yuri Geller to the States.

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  I think it was there, he got a mission, met with Yuri Geller.

• 1:28:44Jesse Michels?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:46Jesse Michels?

  So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing. And then you get the amazing James Randi with his prize to, you know, be.

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  But the most gullible people you can, you can ask for are the scientists.

• 1:29:07Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  You should put.

• 1:29:10Jesse Michels?

  That's interesting. What, what, what do you mean? I, I kind of agree with you, but what do you mean by that?

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  They are not prepared to be, to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it.

• 1:29:21Jesse Michels?

  Ah, so they think that reality is, ah, that's so interesting.

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:27Jesse Michels?

  So they're not, they're not prepared for a magic trick or something?

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  No, no, they aren't.

• 1:29:32Jesse Michels?

  Ah, that's a good, that's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else Edgar Mitchell told you?

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  We talked for hours and hours, I don't remember now, I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you're looking for my name, Ed Mitchell.

• 1:29:50Jesse Michels?

  Cool.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  Because I published it and it's out there.

• 1:29:54Jesse Michels?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  It was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in.

• 1:30:01Jesse Michels?

  What UFO-related meeting impacted you the most?

• 1:30:08Speaker 02

  Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me. Because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was sixteen. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours, an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, a hundred kilometers away. And I also saw the object. But they didn't understand what it was.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was. I wrote to the newspapers, I was sixteen, and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. I saw it for hours and I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it, they were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter.

• 1:31:28Jesse Michels?

  Why?

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  The same stars.

• 1:31:30Jesse Michels?

  Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter?

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Because they didn't know what it was, and...

• 1:31:35Jesse Michels?

  It doesn't normally show in the sky there.

• 1:31:36Speaker 02

  One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer.

• 1:31:42Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens.

• 1:31:47Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:47Speaker 02

  And he pointed to this object and said, "Can't you see the windows?" And they were looking, "Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows." What I could see were the moons, the three moons that were

• 1:32:01Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  Jupiter at that point.

• 1:32:04Jesse Michels?

  That's unbelievable.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  So he was impacting them. And that was very, very good uh learning for me.

• 1:32:13Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  That if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. Because you don't want to be the guy that

• 1:32:22Jesse Michels?

  Deviates.

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, supports the party.

• 1:32:25Jesse Michels?

  So they're crowd like dynamics.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Absolutely. This was my my first big UFO case.

• 1:32:31Jesse Michels?

  That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the the Atacama Mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunked this case?

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did.

• 1:32:44Jesse Michels?

  And then at what point do you decide you're gonna dedicate your life to UFO research?

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I I I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to

• 1:33:00Jesse Michels?

  Ah, interesting.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  To understand.

• 1:33:01Jesse Michels?

  But why did you decide that a couple of months earlier? What was the moment?

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  Uh, I started a small UFO society in my hometown called UFO Maristad.

• 1:33:10Jesse Michels?

  Had you had an experience or?

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  No, no, no, not at that time. I had not seen anything. Uh, I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see? I wanted to know what people saw in the sky.

• 1:33:24Jesse Michels?

  Have you had an experience since then?

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, yeah, I I had an experience together with my wife. In nineteen ninety five, November the fifth. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving, and Annalise was sitting beside me. We were just coming into our the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. The other one was looking. So I said to Annalise, can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? And she did that, but she said, no, it's a fantastic sky.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm.

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  So we passed them and we were quite near our house. So I parked the car inside our garage and we went out and I thought now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. So we scanned the sky, we stood one meter uh from each other. And suddenly out of the black in Gemini between Castor and Pollux, not from the horizon, just back,

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  came three illuminated plus signs. Bam bam bam.

• 1:34:53Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  And they flew, they flew over us. And Annalise saw it immediately, so I didn't have to say anything. But I said, oh, did you see? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we ran after them around the corner because they passed over our our roof. And we could see them flying over our neighbor's roof and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space be- behind beside them, but it's so they were glued together. And they were so easy to see.

• 1:35:21Jesse Michels?

  When you say glued together?

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  I mean, they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus signs.

• 1:35:30Jesse Michels?

  Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they?

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  Like beside beside each other.

• 1:35:41Jesse Michels?

  So it was a ob- okay, so they were plus sign formations of UFOs?

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  No, no, they were they were plus signs.

• 1:35:47Jesse Michels?

  Solid plus signs?

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Solid plus.

• 1:35:49Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:50Jesse Michels?

  Have you ever heard of a case or like that?

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Not at that point, but I took a look. But I should say one more thing that I said to Annalise, we don't talk, we go inside. Here's a form, you sit in the kitchen, I'm sitting here.

• 1:36:06Jesse Michels?

  Spoken like a true UFO researcher. So you literally made yourself like this double blind. And then you both described what you see and you didn't talk.

• 1:36:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:36:16Jesse Michels?

  That's amazing. You you maintained your discipline even in your own sighting.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  What should I do?

• 1:36:22Jesse Michels?

  That's awesome.

• 1:36:23Speaker 02

  So we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same. They never are, but they were of the same objects.

• 1:36:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator for you for Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to to to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't.

• 1:36:41Jesse Michels?

  Were the plus signs, what color, white?

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  White.

• 1:36:45Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Jesse Michels?

  And how fast were they traveling?

• 1:36:50Jesse Michels?

  Wow. How low were they?

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars. But they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower.

• 1:37:05Jesse Michels?

  Any um other anomalies like right angle turns or disappearing or?

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:37:12Jesse Michels?

  Lights or?

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue, on the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing.

• 1:37:20Jesse Michels?

  It's like they just appeared?

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. And? And I never, I never talked about this to anyone for months, except for the researcher. Because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio. And I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her eighties and she was a young girl in the thirties. And she had been out with her mother who was in inside the house. She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  And suddenly, on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere. Rolling on the road, jutes.

• 1:38:17Jesse Michels?

  Whoa.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  And gone.

• 1:38:20Jesse Michels?

  Wow. Were yours also rolling like that?

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:38:23Jesse Michels?

  Okay, hers were.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:25Jesse Michels?

  Yours were more floating.

• 1:38:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were rigid, rigid, really, they were.

• 1:38:29Jesse Michels?

  Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke. That the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like.

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Jesse Michels?

  A flying saucer, or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much, or triangles, or it's the more common thing.

• 1:38:46Jesse Michels?

  Klaus, do you ever wonder? What if in one of these random manila envelopes?

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  The answer.

• 1:38:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, or is this the most undeniable evidence?

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course. We haven't read them.

• 1:38:58Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  I mean, we have read some of them.

• 1:39:00Jesse Michels?

  So we need to get you funding, man.

• 1:39:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available.

• 1:39:05Jesse Michels?

  Do you have any plans to digitize?

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  We do it all the time.

• 1:39:08Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  All the time. We only one guy do it.

• 1:39:12Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  So he's sitting under an avalanche, you know?

• 1:39:15Jesse Michels?

  What's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout out.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  Leif Ostrand is a real hero.

• 1:39:19Jesse Michels?

  Leif Ostrand, thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher? And has gone the deepest on the files, besides you?

• 1:39:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. Yeah, Gregor Jajian from the US.

• 1:39:42Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State.

• 1:39:50Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:39:51Speaker 02

  So he spent a couple of weeks.

• 1:39:52Jesse Michels?

  Is he into UFOs?

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wrote his book about the history of UFOs.

• 1:39:57Jesse Michels?

  He did?

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Jesse Michels?

  Okay. I don't know who he is, really.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  No, he's often on TV and things like that. I like him expert. He's very good.

• 1:40:03Jesse Michels?

  Do you like him?

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like him. Really good researcher.

• 1:40:07Jesse Michels?

  Do you know the Penn State, um, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is?

• 1:40:12Speaker 02

  Walker.

• 1:40:12Jesse Michels?

  Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was the lead scientist. And he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the Majestic Twelve.

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:40:28Jesse Michels?

  There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadell. And that guy spoke to-

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  Henry Azadell.

• 1:40:34Jesse Michels?

  Henry Azadell.

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  He's a very, very elusive guy. He has several names.

• 1:40:40Jesse Michels?

  Ah.

• 1:40:41Speaker 02

  He published this Silver Diamonds South African thing with the fraud.

• 1:40:45Jesse Michels?

  Ah. So do you think he was like in intelligence or?

• 1:40:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I don't trust him at all.

• 1:40:51Jesse Michels?

  So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with?

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  I don't know, but Henry Azadell, he's not a bona fide UFO guy.

• 1:40:58Jesse Michels?

  Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker?

• 1:41:01Speaker 02

  No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Azadell.

• 1:41:04Jesse Michels?

  So, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron.

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:41:07Jesse Michels?

  So Grant Cameron wrote a book and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between-

• 1:41:15Speaker 02

  Grant is a good guy.

• 1:41:16Jesse Michels?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. Henry, uh, I mean, he faked those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of them being fake.

• 1:41:27Jesse Michels?

  Apparently, there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO secrets.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Jesse Michels?

  And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, I can't tell. He was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you. And he got very paranoid.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:41:41Jesse Michels?

  So I, you know, and then there's also, um, I'm sure you're familiar with, um, Steinman, William Steinman.

• 1:41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:47Jesse Michels?

  So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker.

• 1:41:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:51Jesse Michels?

  Because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so he, I believe he went to Penn State, Steinman.

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:42:02Jesse Michels?

  Um, him and, uh, Scott, was it Scott Crane? I believe his other colleague.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:42:09Jesse Michels?

  And they tried to meet with Eric Walker and Eric Walker again was like, you guys are chasing your tails. You're like, I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and, um, uh, Eric Walker. And he said, you're, you're, you know, what do you know about the sixth sense? What do you know about psi? And then, uh, he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. And goes, until you know about that, you don't know anything about this. And you're chasing your, you're basically, it's like Don Quixote.

• 1:42:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:42:37Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. So I, I was just thinking that because this guy is from.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  That is interesting, but not Henry.

• 1:42:42Jesse Michels?

  Uh, Esadel, yeah.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has too many, uh, problems.

• 1:42:46Jesse Michels?

  But, but you can't, if somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out with the bathwater. For sure.

• 1:42:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:57Jesse Michels?

  You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people, I think in the U S now who are on the circuit, who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo. But you, that doesn't mean you should not talk to them.

• 1:43:11Speaker 02

  No, no, absolutely. Talk to them. Absolutely.

• 1:43:14Jesse Michels?

  And then, and then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration.

• 1:43:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Jesse Michels?

  But I, yeah.

• 1:43:21Speaker 02

  I agree with that.

• 1:43:21Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  Sure, for sure. But there are too many of them, so it's very hard to distinguish.

• 1:43:27Jesse Michels?

  There are a lot, yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying with the Henry Azad, like maybe some, some stuff's true, some's fake, you know, I don't know.

• 1:43:33Speaker 02

  It could very well be like that.

• 1:43:35Jesse Michels?

  So, Klaas, you mentioned Adamsky, which is a very interesting case.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:40Jesse Michels?

  Around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman, hard to say. It seems like he was caught in some lies.

• 1:43:49Speaker 02

  Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that.

• 1:43:54Jesse Michels?

  Right.

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  But many of the pictures he took, you know, those motherships and scout ships, he was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things.

• 1:44:07Jesse Michels?

  Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements? Or he was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, he was hanging out with George Van Tassel, right? And who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case? Or?

• 1:44:24Speaker 02

  It's rather complicated, but I, I don't think his, his pictures have been properly analyzed.

• 1:44:32Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  I think they, they should be. There was one guy who did some analytic work on it, but he don't want to share.

• 1:44:41Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  When I ask him, he don't want to share how he did it.

• 1:44:44Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamsky wrote.

• 1:44:50Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  And I would love to see them. I know that Glenn Stekling has read them.

• 1:44:56Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  And I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far.

• 1:45:03Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  So there are still some openings or closings, I'm not sure which one it is, to the case. So I want to know more really about Adamsky.

• 1:45:12Jesse Michels?

  So you're not, you haven't made up your mind?

• 1:45:14Speaker 02

  I've not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door.

• 1:45:19Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:19Speaker 02

  But I think most of it are not as good as it should be.

• 1:45:23Jesse Michels?

  What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss.

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, Billy Meyer I don't trust.

• 1:45:28Jesse Michels?

  You don't, you think that he

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Jesse Michels?

  Hoaxes.

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:31Jesse Michels?

  The photo, I mean, the photos look too good to be true in many cases, but then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning, he was attracting real stuff. And so, and you get the same things sometimes with Chris Bledsoe where people are like.

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  The story, no, in the beginning it was good.

• 1:45:48Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:49Speaker 02

  I don't buy that.

• 1:45:50Jesse Michels?

  You don't buy it.

• 1:45:50Speaker 02

  I don't buy that. And if I, I have loads of his pictures.

• 1:45:53Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  At home.

• 1:45:54Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:54Speaker 02

  And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see there are models standing on, on a table.

• 1:46:01Jesse Michels?

  That's not good.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  That's not good. He used even pictures from books.

• 1:46:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  You know, the time travel he made to the dinosaurs.

• 1:46:09Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, that was so strange.

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, oh, this is the picture I took when I traveled back, back in time.

• 1:46:18Jesse Michels?

  That's cra- that's crazy.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  It's not.

• 1:46:20Jesse Michels?

  He says that in the book?

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:21Jesse Michels?

  Okay, I, I, after this, it's hard to take him seriously. Really? He says, he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's a clearly a fake photo?

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I have the book myself. You can pair it. It's exactly the same picture.

• 1:46:32Jesse Michels?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his ha- or her hand, I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there, so you can only see the arm. And this incredibly fake looking gun, like from a toy store.

• 1:46:51Jesse Michels?

  I just had a guest on who said, this guy's in Jason Reza Giorgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that?

• 1:47:00Speaker 05

  Billy Meyer. Also, not really his name. I mean, his, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style, super spy, field intelligence operative.

• 1:47:15Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:47:16Speaker 05

  Working primarily in the Middle East.

• 1:47:18Jesse Michels?

  Billy Meyer?

• 1:47:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey, in a bus accident, his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland, where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contact D phenomenon.

• 1:47:33Jesse Michels?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:47:35Speaker 05

  I dug up this and have documented it all in Closer Encounters.

• 1:47:39Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:47:40Speaker 05

  So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shah of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the King of Jordan.

• 1:47:58Jesse Michels?

  Billy Meyer?

• 1:47:58Speaker 05

  Billy Meyer.

• 1:47:59Jesse Michels?

  What? He had like British intelligence ties?

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  You always tend to love to make stories better.

• 1:48:05Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Most of the time, he's just a crazy guy making up things to make himself a new Jesus like Billy Meyer really tried to do.

• 1:48:15Jesse Michels?

  That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books, I think, in UFO research is Jacques Vallée's Messengers of Deception. And it's like you get all this cult creation around, you know, certain figures in ufology.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  It's interesting because there are here in Sweden, we had quite a few sorcerer cults.

• 1:48:33Jesse Michels?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Where guys who want to make themselves bigger than they are.

• 1:48:39Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  Have told stories that are quite far out and got followers, mostly women.

• 1:48:47Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:48:49Jesse Michels?

  Interesting.

• 1:48:52Jesse Michels?

  What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world.

• 1:48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, loads of them, really.

• 1:49:00Jesse Michels?

  What is your top UFO photo?

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier.

• 1:49:14Jesse Michels?

  Yep.

• 1:49:14Speaker 02

  The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the seventies, they tend to say, okay, I faked it.

• 1:49:22Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:49:23Speaker 02

  I did so with every single Swedish nineteen seventy photo. And it's always young men.

• 1:49:30Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:31Speaker 02

  Not a single girl.

• 1:49:32Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:49:33Speaker 02

  And when I called them ten or fifteen years later, they said, okay, I admit I did it. It faked, except one who still maintains his story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian, he's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life. And I gave him the chance every second year, I call him again and say, hi, it's me.

• 1:49:59Jesse Michels?

  You can admit that you faked it now?

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:01Jesse Michels?

  And he won't admit it?

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:02Jesse Michels?

  What's his name?

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure, Kristo Sundström.

• 1:50:07Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:08Jesse Michels?

  And can, do you have the photo?

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can, of course.

• 1:50:14Jesse Michels?

  You can send it?

• 1:50:14Speaker 02

  I can send it so you can have it in.

• 1:50:16Jesse Michels?

  I'd love to see it.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:50:17Jesse Michels?

  Is that the most visually appealing, clear photo that you can't debunk?

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it.

• 1:50:28Jesse Michels?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  I did it as well.

• 1:50:29Jesse Michels?

  Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, you see, you did fake it.

• 1:50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did a fake.

• 1:50:34Jesse Michels?

  Well, you can fake any of these photos and then somewhat, certain ones, you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:45Jesse Michels?

  seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. It's, there's no way to fully prove it or disprove it.

• 1:50:54Speaker 02

  The thing is that it's not the picture, it's the story.

• 1:50:57Jesse Michels?

  Hmm.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  I mean, when you go through this guy and make an interview, then to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards. Then it falls apart.

• 1:51:15Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16Jesse Michels?

  So you think that there's, that it's fake? Because he, the story doesn't actually stand out.

• 1:51:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture.

• 1:51:28Jesse Michels?

  But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake?

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's fake.

• 1:51:32Jesse Michels?

  You think it's fake?

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:33Jesse Michels?

  So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real?

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was trying to find out that. Most people should say the McMinnville picture.

• 1:51:42Jesse Michels?

  McMinnville, yeah.

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago. And this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string. If you make a

• 1:51:54Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:51:54Speaker 02

  data enhancement of it.

• 1:51:56Jesse Michels?

  Really?

• 1:51:57Speaker 02

  So I don't know anymore.

• 1:51:59Jesse Michels?

  Oh, no, the McMinnville?

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:01Jesse Michels?

  That's like a holy grail, you know?

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  It's very hard to find a picture you can say that, wow, this, this is good.

• 1:52:09Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  You have to look for the story.

• 1:52:10Jesse Michels?

  So there, is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that you're very high conviction are real?

• 1:52:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have no photos that I'm, except the one I told you about with the radar returner I saw myself. That picture is of course of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar.

• 1:52:43Jesse Michels?

  Yes.

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  I know it was there. And of course, he couldn't know it was a military radar.

• 1:52:49Jesse Michels?

  So you have on that case, you have radar?

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:52Jesse Michels?

  You have a photo?

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, two witnesses.

• 1:52:54Jesse Michels?

  And you have two witnesses? That might be one of the best UFO cases ever.

• 1:52:59Speaker 02

  It's for real. I mean, that happened.

• 1:53:02Jesse Michels?

  And that's the one you're gonna go digging for?

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  No, it's around the same area.

• 1:53:06Jesse Michels?

  Around the same area?

• 1:53:07Speaker 02

  Not connected in any other way.

• 1:53:09Jesse Michels?

  Okay.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  It's many, many years between them.

• 1:53:12Jesse Michels?

  Wow.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:14Jesse Michels?

  Fascinating. Klaus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field?

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  I would love to understand that it's very scarce time. You have to make interviews with people before they passes away. I miss so many.

• 1:53:34Jesse Michels?

  Who's top of the list?

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  Lots of people from the Ghost Rocket era. Investigators and witnesses that I... Oh, in the 1980s, when I started to pursue that, they were gone, many of them.

• 1:53:48Jesse Michels?

  Who's the number one person?

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  It was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden, who was very much doing research and met people all around North Sweden and made interviews. I missed him, and that's really, really sad. I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes.

• 1:54:13Jesse Michels?

  It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this like large scale, and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions. And so you're very obviously rigorous. And so, appreciate your time, man. Thank you for having us.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:54:48Speaker 05

  Alchemists, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy Magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video, with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video.

• 1:55:50Speaker 05

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